MBB: Duke 94, Army 72 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[kAzE]

I'm already convinced after 2 games. This feels like Anthony Davis type of impact at the college level.

[brevity]

This week John Calipari and I both learned that having a lack of emphasis on basketball recruiting and a fanbase of moderate enthusiasm is a more effective approach when playing Duke.

[LasVegas]

I'm already convinced after 2 games. This feels like Anthony Davis type of impact at the college level.

It’s really hard for me to believe he won’t be the #1 pick. Can really do it all out there and his motor is unbelievable. It’s only been 2 games but I am shocked.

[dukelifer]

It’s really hard for me to believe he won’t be the #1 pick. Can really do it all out there and his motor is unbelievable. It’s only been 2 games but I am shocked.

At the college level- he has no match -just so strong and wide. The next level will be a little different but he is an unusual player- no doubt about it.

[MChambers]

Zion was just as good as he was against Kentucky.

The defense, however, was very poor. Terrible rotations.

Barrett had a very poor game. Too quick to shoot, lots of turnovers, and bad defense.

[PackMan97]

Army >>> Kentucky

[Billy Dat]

JJ Reddish

[Brockt10]

Zion was just as good as he was against Kentucky.

The defense, however, was very poor. Terrible rotations.

Barrett had a very poor game. Too quick to shoot, lots of turnovers, and bad defense.

Couldn't have said it better

[dukelifer]

Zion was just as good as he was against Kentucky.

The defense, however, was very poor. Terrible rotations.

Barrett had a very poor game. Too quick to shoot, lots of turnovers, and bad defense.

This is what I expected from the start of the year although very pleased with Reddish’s shot from deep- that is a weapon. The KY game was as much due to KY failing to take a hit than with Duke being dominant. This team will get better on D but it will take until January or February. Fortunately they can score. Zion is too big and strong for college players.

[Saratoga2]

Zion was just as good as he was against Kentucky.

The defense, however, was very poor. Terrible rotations.

Barrett had a very poor game. Too quick to shoot, lots of turnovers, and bad defense.

Williamson had a great game, Tre also played well and Reddish shot well. As you point out, Barrett was often lost on his defensive rotations and was turnover prone. They called his Eurostep today. We now know this team has some work to do and needs to shore up the the m2m defense. Not surprising for a team starting 4 freshmen.

[slower]

The Pack-Line defense looms on the horizon.

Will RJ be the good or bad alpha dog? They all get along great right now, but what happens if Zion starts calling for the ball and RJ doesn't want to give it up? Don't want another Tatum-Kennard situation. Seems like Tre will keep everybody fed, though.

[AGDukesky]

I think the defensive mistakes can be corrected. Effort is good but the freshmen are not used to teams playing as smart as Army which made them get out of position. We have the ability to be good at defense and I think this team will take the same path as 2015 - peak for the NCAAs once they understand how to rotate and switch better.

The players have great chemistry and understand their roles. Reddish’s aggressiveness has not been an issue. Tre has been the steady presence these thoroughbreds need.

[Eternal Outlaw]

The bad: Looked like a textbook letdown after big win game. Not as much focus or emotion to start, maybe some we'll just dominate these guys. Defense didn't looked disciplined when collapsing on drivers for no reason leaving the 3 open. This team never showed they could beat us with tough twos but they kept leaving guys wide open for three. Some bad shots taken, sloppy turnovers.

The good: Won by 22 and frankly I thought and posted at half and still believe the score is misleading. Every 50/50 ball bounced into their hands, I don't think many were lost due to lack of effort, just weird bounces. Zion in the 2nd half plays the passing lane and should have an easy dunk but the ball just weirdly ricochets off a guy and they end up with a wide open 3. This type of chaos score instead of easy transition bucket for us happened like 4-5 times each half. That's a 30 point win if we get 50% of those. I do like they got a closer game before Maui, much better to get the first wake up game here against a team they should handle than the first being in Maui against a highly rated squad. Good learning game.

[DukieInBrasil]

I'm already convinced after 2 games. This feels like Anthony Davis type of impact at the college level.
Zion has played much more like an NPOY than RJ Barrett has, despite the preseason buzz for RJ as NPOY


Zion was just as good as he was against Kentucky.
The defense, however, was very poor. Terrible rotations.
Barrett had a very poor game. Too quick to shoot, lots of turnovers, and bad defense.

Hopefully RJ uses the video from this game to make some adjustments. He's a good player, but he needs to focus on his best areas.

[cakerace]

In hindsight, I think the KY game said more about KY than it did about Duke...

[weezie]

^^^ seconded!

The Devils need to put that ky game in the far rear view and concentrate on not collapsing on the ball handler.

And, how's about no more behind the back dribbling when in the lane?

[HereBeforeCoachK]

In hindsight, I think the KY game said more about KY than it did about Duke...

With due respect, I disagree. I think the Kentucky game post game buzz was something highly unusual, unpredictable, and unstoppable - especially as it reaches the eyes and ears of teenagers. I think a mature, experienced and disciplined team like Army was the perfect kind of team to take advantage of that dynamic. With all of that, and Army shooting lights out first half, and as some on here mentioned, getting every fluke bounce their way....Duke still won by 22. A normal game of Army three point shooting and fluke bounces? Makes this a 40 point game.

[dukelifer]

With due respect, I disagree. I think the Kentucky game post game buzz was something highly unusual, unpredictable, and unstoppable - especially as it reaches the eyes and ears of teenagers. I think a mature, experienced and disciplined team like Army was the perfect kind of team to take advantage of that dynamic. With all of that, and Army shooting lights out first half, and as some on here mentioned, getting every fluke bounce their way...Duke still won by 22. A normal game of Army three point shooting and fluke bounces? Makes this a 40 point game.

Duke won big and had some defensive issues- that is expected with a young squad. Army plays a spread out O and has players with a lot of experience and discipline. Army should be proud of their effort. Cam’s shooting is the biggest positive from the game. You can fix D with time but either you can shoot it or you can’t.

[Indoor66]

Zion has played much more like an NPOY than RJ Barrett has, despite the preseason buzz for RJ as NPOY



Hopefully RJ uses the video from this game to make some adjustments. He's a good player, but he needs to focus on his best areas.

He needs to keep his foot planted when he starts his dribble.

[CDu]

I'm already convinced after 2 games. This feels like Anthony Davis type of impact at the college level.

He is an absolute freak of nature. I just hope he stays healthy. Because if he does, there just aren’t many answers for his skills. Just amazing to watch.

[Saratoga2]

They pushed the ball up on us and our transition defense left a lot to be desired. Our defensive rotations were slow and we left the 3 unguarded. These are all things that can be worked on . We will go into the fire against some teams, perhaps Gonzaga will be a major test. Our offense needs to move the ball with passes instead of trying to go one on one into a packed defense. All good leasrning experiences as a team

[-jk]

He needs to keep his foot planted when he starts his dribble.

I suspect the coaches will be working with him one-on-one on that one.

No kangaroos in hoops these days!

-jk

[uh_no]

He needs to keep his foot planted when he starts his dribble.

nah. it's just called the "euro step" :D

[Troublemaker]

Just like Duke wasn't going to go undefeated after crushing Kentucky, we shouldn't overreact in the other direction for what was an utterly predictable and (very much predicted - read the pregame thread and/or see the gambling contest) letdown game.

The big takeaway for me is that Duke's struggles gave Coach K a reason to finally experiment with playing Duke's Death Lineup (Zion at the 5, Jack at the 4) in the second half. And Duke's Death Lineup played very well on both ends. We really don't lose much in terms of rebounding and rim protection when Zion and Jack are our "bigs," and the lineup should be unguardable on the other end. Duke's Death Lineup (DDL) is going to be such an important lineup for us this season, as I could easily envision the DDL being our closing lineup in competitive and important games.

[-jk]

From Jim Sumner's story:


Krzyzewski said Duke tried to put something together for last Veteran’s Day but started too late.

He credited “cooperation by both schools. Our administrators did it and we thought for us and for their program, it was a show-case game. It was a great thing. The United States Military Academy is part of me big time. To see them play here is a big honor for me. Some of these seniors could be in Afghanistan or Iraq in a few years. It’s a big honor to have them here.”

We got a good one 30-some years ago, and managed to hang on to him through a tough start.

Cheers!, as we remember all our other heroes...

-jk

[cptnflash]

The big takeaway for me is that Duke's struggles gave Coach K a reason to finally experiment with playing Duke's Death Lineup (Zion at the 5, Jack at the 4) in the second half. And Duke's Death Lineup played very well on both ends. We really don't lose much in terms of rebounding and rim protection when Zion and Jack are our "bigs," and the lineup should be unguardable on the other end. Duke's Death Lineup (DDL) is going to be such an important lineup for us this season, as I could easily envision the DDL being our closing lineup in competitive and important games.

Completely agree with this. Through two games, Jack has been far more impactful on both ends than either Javin or Marques. Zion is plenty big enough to play a small ball 5 in college, unless the other team has a 7-footer (and even then he can probably hang for short stretches). Marques and Javin will be useful for soaking up fouls during the course of 40 minutes but I too expect to see more of this lineup in games that are close late.

Also, love the "DDL" moniker. Kudos.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Bolden didn’t get much playing time today. I hope he stays in the rotation.

[Furniture]

JJ Reddish

Cam Reddish's 7 threes are the most for any Duke player in a game since Andre Dawkins made 8 vs. Bradley (12/8/2010). Duke record: 9 by J.J. Redick (vs. Texas in 2005) and Shane Battier (vs. Princeton in 2000).

Inspite of the above I think this kid is just warming up. He will get better and better.

[DukieInBrasil]

Just like Duke wasn't going to go undefeated after crushing Kentucky, we shouldn't overreact in the other direction for what was an utterly predictable and (very much predicted - read the pregame thread and/or see the gambling contest) letdown game.

The big takeaway for me is that Duke's struggles gave Coach K a reason to finally experiment with playing Duke's Death Lineup (Zion at the 5, Jack at the 4) in the second half. And Duke's Death Lineup played very well on both ends. We really don't lose much in terms of rebounding and rim protection when Zion and Jack are our "bigs," and the lineup should be unguardable on the other end. Duke's Death Lineup (DDL) is going to be such an important lineup for us this season, as I could easily envision the DDL being our closing lineup in competitive and important games.

after looking at the boxscore, i was gonna ask why Marques only got 13 minutes. But it looks like the answer was just that J-White was more effective for the team. Although the Big 'Ques was 0-3 from the floor, he managed to accumulate other stats. It just seems that the US style of basketball keeps moving away from guys like him, and Okafor.

Although the lineup with Jack on the floor was the preference, the "3" part of his 3-n-D utility ain't been so hot, so far. 2-6 is better than 1-5, so with that sort of arc, we should expect Jack to shoot 3-7 in the next game?

[JayZee]

Bolden didn’t get much playing time today. I hope he stays in the rotation.

I did not look at the box score, but seemed to me like he got a decent amount of time. And I thought that he played relatively well again. Some rim protection. Grabbed a few loose balls, which hasn’t really been his strength. Played more than Jav, I’m pretty sure.

[-jk]

after looking at the boxscore, i was gonna ask why Marques only got 13 minutes. But it looks like the answer was just that J-White was more effective for the team. Although the Big 'Ques was 0-3 from the floor, he managed to do accumulate other stats. It just seems that the US style of basketball keeps moving away from guys like him, and Okafor.
Although the lineup with Jack on the floor was the preference, the "3" part of his 3-n-D utility ain't been so hot, so far. 2-6 is better than 1-5, so with that sort of arc, we should expect Jack to shoot 3-7 in the next game?

Marques rotated really well... I was happy to see it.

-jk

[Kedsy]

The defense, however, was very poor. Terrible rotations.

We actually allowed fewer points per possession against Army (0.92) than we did against Kentucky (1.02). Taking into account that UK's offense is supposed to be much better than Army's, and adjusting for that (using Pomeroy's adjusted oRtg), our defense was a little worse against Army (0.93 vs. 0.89), but not a whole lot. It just seemed like more because our offense was sooooo much better against Kentucky.

Obviously there's a lot of room for improvement on defense, but if you liked what you saw defensively against Kentucky, I'm not sure adjectives like "poor" and "terrible" are appropriate for our defensive showing today.


Defense didn't looked disciplined when collapsing on drivers for no reason leaving the 3 open. This team never showed they could beat us with tough twos but they kept leaving guys wide open for three.


Our defensive rotations were slow and we left the 3 unguarded.

It's true that Army shot a lot more threes (39.7% of shots taken) than UK did (28.8%). I think a decent portion of that difference had to do with our defense letting them have those shots by collapsing on drivers. Another portion of that was due to our total shut down of Army's inside game, effectively leaving them little choice but to jack 'em up from outside. Army also shot a lot better from three (38.7%) than Kentucky (23.5%). Some of that difference was because we gave them a lot of open shots from out there, but a large part of the difference is that Army is just a better three-point shooting team than Kentucky (based on eye test -- not a big enough sample yet to tell us this via numbers).


Some bad shots taken...

Maybe. Our eFG% this game (59.0%) was almost as good as it was against Kentucky (62.0%), so I doubt that our shot selection was significantly different.


sloppy turnovers.

True, but expected for a young team and not unduly so. We can't expect this team to continue the ridiculously good 4.9% TO% that we had against Kentucky. Our TO% today (15.3%) wasn't particularly bad. In fact, if that ends up being our season long rate, it would be very good (as a comparison, our TO% for the season in 2015 was 16.3%).


Our offense needs to move the ball with passes instead of trying to go one on one into a packed defense.

68.6% of our baskets were assisted, which is really good. (Again, in 2015 for the season, we assisted on 53.5% of our baskets). I guess it's possible an undue number of our misses were on one-on-one plays, but we shot 55.6% from two-point range, which is similar to other years (2015: 55.9%; 2018: 56.0%), so it doesn't appear as if this was much of a real problem today.


They pushed the ball up on us and our transition defense left a lot to be desired.

Army had nine (9) fast break points, or 12.5% of their total points. On Tuesday, Kentucky had 12 fast break points, for 14.3%. I agree we didn't get back in a few glaring instances, but if you're going to play this fast a pace the numbers today weren't particularly concerning.


ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 78.25 (a bit slower than our 82.42 against UK, but still pretty fast)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 1.20 (pretty good, even after adjusting (117.7) for Army's below average defense; it just seems subpar compared to our incredible 143.0 performance (148.6 adjusted) against UK)
eFG%: 59.0% (good, close to our 62.0% against UK)
3pt%: 41.7% (very good; not quite our 46.2% against UK, but close enough)
2pt%: 55.6% (good enough; again not quite as good as our 58.5% against UK, but in the ballpark)
%threes: 50.0% (too high; but when you hit 42%, why not let 'em fly?)
FT rate: 18.1% (too low; less than half our FT rate against UK (36.7%))
OR%: 30.8% (not good; similar to our number against UK (33.3%) but still poor)
TO%: 15.3% (as noted above, this is good; we can't expect to only have four turnovers like we did against UK)
a/to ratio: 2:1 (very good, though obviously well below the otherworldly 5.5:1 we put up against Kentucky)
%assisted: 68.6% (really good; much higher than our 51.2% against UK)
fast break: 15 fb pts for 16.0% of points scored (not bad, though not quite up to the 22.0% we managed against UK)

OFFENSE

dRtg: 0.92 (not bad, though it obviously could have been better)
eFG%: 43.6% (actually better than the 47.5% we allowed against UK)
3pt%: 38.7% (too high, but it's always hard to tell how much of this is due to leaving people open vs. them just hitting shots)
2pt%: 28.1% (amazing; probably the best stat of the afternoon)
%threes: 39.7% (again too high but, also again, not sure how much of this could have been avoided)
FT rate: 9.0% (very strong, especially after the 64.4% FT rate we allowed vs. UK)
DR%: 74.5% (strong, thanks in large part to Zion's 10 defensive boards)
TO%: 12.8% (weak; possibly the worst stat of the afternoon)
a/to ratio: 2.2: 1 (weak)
%assisted: 78.6% (weak, but a disciplined team like Army can put up numbers like this)
fast break: 9 fb pts for 12.5% of points scored (not great, perhaps, but not terrible for a fast-paced game like this)
block%: 32.1% (56.3% of two-point shots) (yes, you read that right, we blocked more than half of Army's two-point shots, again due mostly to Zion (6 blocks by himself))


Overall, this performance wasn't nearly as bad as people seem to think. On defense, we gave up a high percentage of threes and we didn't turn them over, but our lack of fouling and our smothering of their two-point shots mostly negated those issues. On offense, if we'd gotten to the line a bit more it would have been a very strong performance (instead of just pretty good), though nothing would appear good after our incredible offensive takedown of Kentucky.

[Kedsy]

Played more than Jav, I’m pretty sure.

13 minutes vs. 12 minutes. So, yeah, but not really.

[KandG]

Williamson had a great game, Tre also played well and Reddish shot well.

7 of 13 from three is indeed impressive, so I swear I'm not trying to nitpick, but as better teams close out on Reddish more effectively, I'd like to see him do better than making only 2 out of 8 two pointers. He didn't get to the line in this game either, unlike the Kentucky game (where he was 7-7 on FTs).

Barrett's weaknesses were as glaring in this game as his strengths were obvious in the Kentucky game. In fairness to all the guys (other than the otherworldly Zion), the hype since the Kentucky game has been on a level I can hardly fathom this early in a Duke season, so as Coach K and Javin pointed out, it no doubt got to their heads. While it wasn't fun watching a well coached Army team tear our defense to shreds for 30 minutes, the game was a really good teaching tool. Can't wait to see how the team responds (and continues to develop) in Maui.

[weezie]

after looking at the boxscore, i was gonna ask why Marques only got 13 minutes. But it looks like the answer was...


To quote House G, Bolden reverted to playing like he's 6'5. And that old bugaboo "TWO hands for rebounds under the basket" reared once again.

[MChambers]

Overall, this performance wasn't nearly as bad as people seem to think. On defense, we gave up a high percentage of threes and we didn't turn them over, but our lack of fouling and our smothering of their two-point shots mostly negated those issues. On offense, if we'd gotten to the line a bit more it would have been a very strong performance (instead of just pretty good), though nothing would appear good after our incredible offensive takedown of Kentucky.
What do numbers have to do with it? :-)

Seriously, the final numbers look better because Duke finally started dominating during the last ten minutes of the game, or so. For the first 30 minutes or so, the game was a lot closer.

And the high percentage of threes given up is a concern. Very poor rotations by the team.

[camion]

I liked this game.

I liked this game because it should help bring the team down to earth after the UK game hype.

I liked it because Army is a team that shows how a team playing together can be better than the individual players would lead you to think. (Kentucky was the opposite.)

I liked this game because it provided many teaching moments.


And then there's Zion.

[chrishoke]

https://www.facebook.com/DukeMBB/videos/299088744035266/
Coach K press conference.

[Channing]

RJ was the Alpha coming into the season. I hope he doesn’t lose some of his inselfish leadership because of all the hype around Zion. I actually thought RJ had a better game against UK than Zion but got almost entirely overlooked.

[Neals384]

Overall, this performance wasn't nearly as bad as people seem to think. On defense, we gave up a high percentage of threes and we didn't turn them over, but our lack of fouling and our smothering of their two-point shots mostly negated those issues. On offense, if we'd gotten to the line a bit more it would have been a very strong performance (instead of just pretty good), though nothing would appear good after our incredible offensive takedown of Kentucky.

Oh, Kedsy, trying to cheer us up with facts when we know IT'S OVER! :o

[DukieInBrasil]

RJ was the Alpha coming into the season. I hope he doesn’t lose some of his inselfish leadership because of all the hype around Zion. I actually thought RJ had a better game against UK than Zion but got almost entirely overlooked.

No way, absolutely not. ZW shot 11-13 FGs vs UK, Barrett shot 13-26 (50%). Zion shot 5-7 FTs vs 4-8 for RJ. Many of Barrett's makes were nearly circus shot variety that won't fall at times. Zion had more rebounds (7) but Barrett had more assists (6). They both played well, but i don't buy the argument that RJ played better vs. UK than did Zion.

[Dukehky]

RJ was the Alpha coming into the season. I hope he doesn’t lose some of his inselfish leadership because of all the hype around Zion. I actually thought RJ had a better game against UK than Zion but got almost entirely overlooked.

Way too much concern being voiced about RJ on this thread...

He went 9-19 with 23 points and 6 rebounds. That's not some crazy inefficient night. Yeah, he didn't play great on defense and he had 5 turnovers, but he's going to be just fine

I also hate when people start talking about his body language. He was the first one off the bench to great Zion after Z made a big play late in the second half. He holds himself to a high standard and he will improve as a leader on the court.

I thought Bolden was okay today, the matchup wasn't great for him, which is why we went with Zion effectively at the 5 for much of the second half.

[Reddevil]

It's nice to have coachable game tape after a 22 point win. It's November folks. This is a young and incredibly talented team. Enjoy the ride. It is unlikely we will see this again.

[kAzE]

I thought both teams played really well. It's 1000% normal for the defense to not be clicking on all cylinders in November, and I'm pretty optimistic that it will be really good in a couple of months.

Even if it doesn't end up being an elite defense, we have Zion.

It's like having LeBron in the NBA. I really believe Zion's THAT good (in college). The dude is flat out unstoppable at this level.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

it's nice to have coachable game tape after a 22 point win. It's november folks. This is a young and incredibly talented team. Enjoy the ride. It is unlikely we will see this again.

x
act
lee

[CoachJ10]

As I can remember “box out” has been the second most common phrase I yell at the tv during Duke games (#1 obviously being “refs, you suck”. After 2 Zion games, I have seen a player who actually does not need to box out because he can just elevate higher than anyone at any time. It is quite remarkable to see him go up above everyone to snatch the ball with his paws.

[sagegrouse]

As I can remember “box out” has been the second most common phrase I yell at the tv during Duke games (#1 obviously being “refs, you suck”. After 2 Zion games, I have seen a player who actually does not need to box out because he can just elevate higher than anyone at any time. It is quite remarkable to see him go up above everyone to snatch the ball with his paws.

Also, it helps that Zion is a living, breathing "box."

[uh_no]

half 1: 43 poss
50 pts -> 116 efficiency -> 119 adjusted
42 pts -> 97.6 efficiency -> 99.6 adjusted

half 2: 35 poss
44 -> 125.7 -> 128.7 adjusted
30->85.7 -> 87.7 adjusted

It should be noted that since KPs numbers are so heavily preseason weighted at this point, the adjustments aren't that valid yet other than a rough idea of "army is probably a pretty average offense and defense". So I don't think it changes the analysis much.

If the second half is duke's ceiling, I'll take that all year. I'm not surprised that army, undoubtedly a disciplined and well coached team was going to put up more of a fight than the hapless leaderless guys from bourbon land. They played their game well and put duke under a lot of pressure. Duke responded fantastically in the second half though....and if that's the kind of adjustment they can make, that's great.

I'm glad we played them. good experience, and I expect this team to continue to grow and was happy with a lot of things.

-who's your daddy 2.0: zion
-another steady day from tre, with 7 assists and 2 TOs, one of which was hardly his fault....though K appeared none too pleased with him at I think the 16 minute timeout in the second half (?)
-whole team continuing to fire well from behind the arc...at this point, seems odd that this was a concern before the season

[Oshima25]

I realize everyone here knows this. I'm not trying to be negative. But if JD or Sumner or anyone else involved with the main site is reading, I think it's been published as "Zion Williams" several times now (currently in the sub-heading for the main DBR article) We have the most unique prospect (maybe not best, but who knows) since LeBron James. I say this in as friendly a manner as one can when complaining about an obvious typo or autocorrect, but let's show him the respect of getting it right every time!

On a more positive note, what an incredible performance from Zion today. He is leaving me lost for words but trying to spit out some new ones anyway. A scrumtrulescent performance.

[Rich]

I realize everyone here knows this. I'm not trying to be negative. But if JD or Sumner or anyone else involved with the main site is reading, I think it's been published as "Zion Williams" several times now (currently in the sub-heading for the main DBR article) We have the most unique prospect (maybe not best, but who knows) since LeBron James. I say this in as friendly a manner as one can when complaining about an obvious typo or autocorrect, but let's show him the respect of getting it right every time!

On a more positive note, what an incredible performance from Zion today. He is leaving me lost for words but trying to spit out some new ones anyway. A scrumtrulescent performance.

Why even include his last name? Seriously.

[Kedsy]

-whole team continuing to fire well from behind the arc...at this point, seems odd that this was a concern before the season

When Cam Reddish has a 1-for-7 or 2-for-12 game from deep (it's going to happen at least once or twice), you'll remember why pretty quick.

[Ian]

As I can remember “box out” has been the second most common phrase I yell at the tv during Duke games (#1 obviously being “refs, you suck”. After 2 Zion games, I have seen a player who actually does not need to box out because he can just elevate higher than anyone at any time. It is quite remarkable to see him go up above everyone to snatch the ball with his paws.
Jack White does a great job of blocking out.

[Steven43]

Don't want another Tatum-Kennard situation.
What was the Tatum-Kennard situation?

[Steven43]

With due respect, I disagree. I think the Kentucky game post game buzz was something highly unusual, unpredictable, and unstoppable - especially as it reaches the eyes and ears of teenagers. I think a mature, experienced and disciplined team like Army was the perfect kind of team to take advantage of that dynamic. With all of that, and Army shooting lights out first half, and as some on here mentioned, getting every fluke bounce their way...Duke still won by 22. A normal game of Army three point shooting and fluke bounces? Makes this a 40 point game.

This

[hsheffield]

Why even include his last name? Seriously.


I mean. Why not just call him 'the Z'?

[Bob Green]

Jim Sumner recap on the front page:

https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2018/11/11/18083474/duke-downs-army-94-72-blue-devils-basketball


Duke’s freshmen looked like freshmen today. R.J. Barrett had five turnovers, mostly unforced. Shot selection was iffy. Duke shot 36 3s but only got to the foul line 13 times. And defensive communication-a perennial concern for a young team-clearly is a work in progress.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

What was the Tatum-Kennard situation?
Color me curious as well...

[TKG]

Just reviewing the box score this morning and found that Army had 13 offensive rebounds to our 12. Something else we will need to correct.

[UrinalCake]

What was the Tatum-Kennard situation?

I’m not the OP but I do remember hearing reports of some dissension in the locker room that season. The veterans were playing hurt while the freshmen were held out, and there was talk that it was causing some tension. Luke even made some public comments about guys playing for themselves and not for the team. One reporter described the team as not having a lot of fun.

Then last season we had the tension around Bagley committing late and Carter feeling displaced. At least that’s how it was described by Carter’s mom. Having to juggle multiple elite recruits and future NBA stars can be tough. Everything’s easy when you’re beating Kentucky by 30, but after the team loses its first game we’ll have to see how they respond.

[Troublemaker]

This team seems to love each other, and I'll be surprised (and disappointed) if that changes.

[Spanarkel]

half 1: 43 poss
50 pts -> 116 efficiency -> 119 adjusted
42 pts -> 97.6 efficiency -> 99.6 adjusted

half 2: 35 poss
44 -> 125.7 -> 128.7 adjusted
30->85.7 -> 87.7 adjusted

It should be noted that since KPs numbers are so heavily preseason weighted at this point, the adjustments aren't that valid yet other than a rough idea of "army is probably a pretty average offense and defense". So I don't think it changes the analysis much.

If the second half is duke's ceiling, I'll take that all year. I'm not surprised that army, undoubtedly a disciplined and well coached team was going to put up more of a fight than the hapless leaderless guys from bourbon land. They played their game well and put duke under a lot of pressure. Duke responded fantastically in the second half though...and if that's the kind of adjustment they can make, that's great.

I'm glad we played them. good experience, and I expect this team to continue to grow and was happy with a lot of things.

-who's your daddy 2.0: zion
-another steady day from tre, with 7 assists and 2 TOs, one of which was hardly his fault...though K appeared none too pleased with him at I think the 16 minute timeout in the second half (?)
-whole team continuing to fire well from behind the arc...at this point, seems odd that this was a concern before the season

It seemed to me that Tre had some difficulty staying between his man and the basket, but his A/TO ratio is strong as you point out.

[flyingdutchdevil]

1) Jack White is one of our top 6 players. Not in terms of talent, but effectiveness and minutes. He is arguably our 8th most talented player, but he meshes so well with the Big 3. He is unselfish (as we saw at the end of halftime, sometimes to a fault), he is great at rebounding, he is a smart defender, and he makes 3 point shots. Not to mention, I love his ability to drive against inferior defenders. Also, he is very, very consistent. I think Bolden is still incredibly inconsistent and DeLaurier just doesn't have a lot of basketball IQ at this point in time. Someone on this thread called him a more athletic Josh Hairston; I really hope that isn't the case but I cannot make an argument against that after 2 games (yes, I understand it's only two games). I hope something changes with DeLaurier.

2) I underestimated Zion. I always knew Barrett would light it up. I always knew Reddish had a really good shot (but his playmaking has been subpar thus far). But I thought Zion was this athletic freak who would just bully his way to the basket. I couldn't have been more wrong. He's a ballerina in a defensive end's body. He's so nimble, so smart, so unselfish. In two games, he rarely makes a mistake. His basketball IQ is arguably second on the team after Tre. And, of course, his athleticism is off the charts.

[elvis14]

1) Jack White is one of our top 6 players. Not in terms of talent, but effectiveness and minutes. He is arguably our 8th most talented player, but he meshes so well with the Big 3. He is unselfish (as we saw at the end of halftime, sometimes to a fault), he is great at rebounding, he is a smart defender, and he makes 3 point shots. Not to mention, I love his ability to drive against inferior defenders. Also, he is very, very consistent. I think Bolden is still incredibly inconsistent and DeLaurier just doesn't have a lot of basketball IQ at this point in time. Someone on this thread called him a more athletic Josh Hairston; I really hope that isn't the case but I cannot make an argument against that after 2 games (yes, I understand it's only two games). I hope something changes with DeLaurier.

2) I underestimated Zion. I always knew Barrett would light it up. I always knew Reddish had a really good shot (but his playmaking has been subpar thus far). But I thought Zion was this athletic freak who would just bully his way to the basket. I couldn't have been more wrong. He's a ballerina in a defensive end's body. He's so nimble, so smart, so unselfish. In two games, he rarely makes a mistake. His basketball IQ is arguably second on the team after Tre. And, of course, his athleticism is off the charts.

I agree on both points. I love what Jack White brings to this team (toughness, defense, rebounding, unselfish offense).
As for Zanos, your description above is perfect. He's just different and it's beautiful.

[azzefkram]

Hard to get wound up over a young and evolving team stumbling a bit against a mature and extremely well disciplined team. It still ended up being a 20pt win. Zion continues to impress. His athleticism is amazing, but his motor impresses me the most. He is almost Jack Whiteian in his ability to be around the play. RJ seemed to press a bit this game. Cam shot well but seemed to lose his man more than a few times. Tre was steady on both sides of the ball. Marques did an okay job around the rim but seemed to revert to watching the play too much. Javin continues to underwhelm. I am pleasantly surprised at how well Jack has gelled with the first team. I am going to be way wrong on my minutes estimation for Jack.

[JayZee]

Hard to get wound up over a young and evolving team stumbling a bit against a mature and extremely well disciplined team. It still ended up being a 20pt win. Zion continues to impress. His athleticism is amazing, but his motor impresses me the most. He is almost Jack Whiteian in his ability to be around the play. RJ seemed to press a bit this game. Cam shot well but seemed to lose his man more than a few times. Tre was steady on both sides of the ball. Marques did an okay job around the rim but seemed to revert to watching the play too much. Javin continues to underwhelm. I am pleasantly surprised at how well Jack has gelled with the first team. I am going to be way wrong on my minutes estimation for Jack.

It's been mentioned before, but Zion's basketball IQ allows his to take even more advantage of his athleticism. The game seems slow for him mentally and physically. I particularly like how he makes decisive moves in the paint and after rebounds. There is no gathering, considering - he just goes. Reminds for the the Woodenism, be quick but don't hurry. He sure is quick, but he doesn't seem like he's rushing.

[Kedsy]

DeLaurier just doesn't have a lot of basketball IQ at this point in time. Someone on this thread called him a more athletic Josh Hairston; I really hope that isn't the case but I cannot make an argument against that after 2 games (yes, I understand it's only two games). I hope something changes with DeLaurier.

Javin doesn't contribute much on offense (one could even argue he detracts on that side of the ball) but despite the fouling he's our best defender and best or second-best rebounder. Those two things (as well as his athleticism) separate him from Josh Hairston. With this team's offensive weapons, a guy who rebounds and plays defense is a helpful component.

Hopefully he'll get the fouling under control, at which time he should be a very valuable player on this team.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Javin doesn't contribute much on offense (one could even argue he detracts on that side of the ball) but despite the fouling he's our best defender and best or second-best rebounder. Those two things (as well as his athleticism) separate him from Josh Hairston. With this team's offensive weapons, a guy who rebounds and plays defense is a helpful component.

Hopefully he'll get the fouling under control, at which time he should be a very valuable player on this team.

No doubt, and his fouling is out of the control so his minutes are certainly limited by that. I don't think the Josh Hairston comp makes much sense either but I do think DeLaurier can play much better on O than he has shown.

This is why White is clearly ahead of the DeLaurier right now: White is a perfect "5-out", has a decent jump shot, can play D (although not like DeLaurier), and is a really good offensive rebounder. This can all change, especially as we face bigger, meaner teams.

[elvis14]

Aw man, Josh Hairston just missed another mid-range, baseline jumper! :p

[JayZee]

No doubt, and his fouling is out of the control so his minutes are certainly limited by that. I don't think the Josh Hairston comp makes much sense either but I do think DeLaurier can play much better on O than he has shown.

This is why White is clearly ahead of the DeLaurier right now: White is a perfect "5-out", has a decent jump shot, can play D (although not like DeLaurier), and is a really good offensive rebounder. This can all change, especially as we face bigger, meaner teams.

Agreed. 3 and D and R?? And to be fair, Jack rebounded quite well against UK's big front line. Like really well. And teams clearly can't ignore him on O, so it just opens up the court that much more.

K has some pieces on the bench this year. Jack, Jav, AOC. And as the frosh are so interchangeable, I think it's easier to sub in/out. When you have 3 queens, there are so many lineups that can work.

[Sir Stealth]

Cannot imagine a better opponent for Game 2 than what we got from Army yesterday. They really knew what they were doing and took advantage by knocking down the looks they got as well. It was great for Duke to play against a team like that after watching Kentucky disintegrate. At the same time, with the talent disparity we could learn the lesson without really being in danger of a massive comedown loss. While there's plenty of room for improvement, I agree with others who thought Duke played pretty well all in all.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Agreed. 3 and D and R?? And to be fair, Jack rebounded quite well against UK's big front line. Like really well. And teams clearly can't ignore him on O, so it just opens up the court that much more.

K has some pieces on the bench this year. Jack, Jav, AOC. And as the frosh are so interchangeable, I think it's easier to sub in/out. When you have 3 queens, there are so many lineups that can work.

Took me a minute to figure out you're talking about chess and not insulting our players ;)

[kAzE]

1) Jack White is one of our top 6 players. Not in terms of talent, but effectiveness and minutes. He is arguably our 8th most talented player, but he meshes so well with the Big 3. He is unselfish (as we saw at the end of halftime, sometimes to a fault), he is great at rebounding, he is a smart defender, and he makes 3 point shots. Not to mention, I love his ability to drive against inferior defenders. Also, he is very, very consistent.

Welcome aboard :D


I think Bolden is still incredibly inconsistent and DeLaurier just doesn't have a lot of basketball IQ at this point in time. Someone on this thread called him a more athletic Josh Hairston; I really hope that isn't the case but I cannot make an argument against that after 2 games (yes, I understand it's only two games). I hope something changes with DeLaurier.

I suspect Javin's slow start is somewhat related to his foot injury. I believe we will see a spike in his production at some point this season if and when he gets fully healthy. Javin has a lot of untapped potential.

[jimsumner]

The thing that impresses me most about Williamson is his enthusiasm for doing the scud work, hitting the floor for loose balls, setting screens, blocking out, getting down and dirty. An uber-talented Dan Meagher.

A player with his talent level could easily be a prima donna. But he plays like a scrub trying to make the traveling squad.

[OldPhiKap]

An uber-talented Dan Meagher.

What does he spit like?

Best I can tell, the think Dan liked to do more than anything on the court is to foul. HARD. Definite Canadian hockey defender mentality.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Best I can tell, the think Dan liked to do more than anything on the court is to foul. HARD. Definite Canadian hockey defender mentality.

I think Meagher brought decent size, great attitude, a lot of hustle, and little talent to the party. I have heard Coach K give him some credit for helping establish the mentality K wanted back in the 80s....

[Steven43]

1) Jack White is one of our top 6 players. Not in terms of talent, but effectiveness and minutes. He is arguably our 8th most talented player, but he meshes so well with the Big 3. He is unselfish (as we saw at the end of halftime, sometimes to a fault), he is great at rebounding, he is a smart defender, and he makes 3 point shots. Not to mention, I love his ability to drive against inferior defenders. Also, he is very, very consistent..
Gee, after that hugely complimentary analysis you have Jack White as only one of our “top 6 players”? Sounds like he should be at least top 5.

[jimsumner]

What does he spit like?

Best I can tell, the think Dan liked to do more than anything on the court is to foul. HARD. Definite Canadian hockey defender mentality.

Meagher absolutely brought a hockey mentality to the game. Unlike Barrett or Greg Newton--don't know about Cameron Hall-Meagher played lots of hockey when he was young. He did not shy from contact.

[rsvman]

The thing that impresses me most about Williamson is his enthusiasm for doing the scud work, hitting the floor for loose balls, setting screens, blocking out, getting down and dirty. An uber-talented Dan Meagher.

A player with his talent level could easily be a prima donna. But he plays like a scrub trying to make the traveling squad.

As much as I hate to correct you, Jim, it's scut work, not scud work. Scud means to move quickly in a straight line. The phrase "scut work" is medical jargon for menial tasks that have to be accomplished in the hospital setting that nobody wants to do.

[jimsumner]

As much as I hate to correct you, Jim, it's scut work, not scud work. Scud means to move quickly in a straight line. The phrase "scut work" is medical jargon for menial tasks that have to be accomplished in the hospital setting that nobody wants to do.

Scut work, it is.

You haven't met my wife, I gather. She doesn't hate to correct me. :)

[kAzE]

Gee, after that hugely complimentary analysis you have Jack White as only one of our “top 6 players”? Sounds like he should be at least top 5.

Through 2 games, Jack is 4th on the team in scoring, tied with Zion and Cam for 3rd in minutes, he's the 2nd leading rebounder, and tied for 2nd in steals. He probably won't ever start, but I think he does have a very good chance to be 5th in minutes when it's all said and done.

[OldPhiKap]

Meagher absolutely brought a hockey mentality to the game. Unlike Barrett or Greg Newton--don't know about Cameron Hall-Meagher played lots of hockey when he was young. He did not shy from contact.

Agreed.

I thought Greg Newton had played high school hockey. I seem to recall reading a quote from him before he came about how he liked physical play from hockey and brought that to the court. And I was sadly disappointed that he did not.

Barrett would be like one of those fast players you never could hit even when you tried. Zoom, they're gone and all you did was shake the board with your shoulder.

[Lar77]

I realize we are in the early part of the season and K tends to have a longer bench, but I like the idea of a longer bench with this team. We have four very talented freshman (not ignoring Joey, but I think he's a redshirt), but can we afford to play them 35+ minutes (we haven't yet by the way)? Injuries often come from fatigue. We have 4 guys that can rotate in well and give different looks (I left out Jordan G, but I think he needs to be developed). White and AOC have good outside shots. White, De Laurier and Bolden can rebound and defend, especially against size. Bolden has shown some inside moves that weren't there last year, but he may only have 15-20 minutes in him

Any thoughts (besides we've never done it before)

[jimsumner]

Agreed.

I thought Greg Newton had played high school hockey. I seem to recall reading a quote from him before he came about how he liked physical play from hockey and brought that to the court. And I was sadly disappointed that he did not.

Barrett would be like one of those fast players you never could hit even when you tried. Zoom, they're gone and all you did was shake the board with your shoulder.

You may be right about Newton. My recollection is that he gave up hockey earlier than that. I'm not sure how effective a 6-10, 220-pound hockey player would be.

Newton is one of Duke's great what-might-have-beens, IMO. He was pretty effective as a junior, in 1996, 12/8/1.5/60% from the field and started his senior year well. But he had some bad games and just unraveled. By the end, K had zero confidence in him. He didn't get off the bench at all in the Providence loss in the NCAAs, a game in which an under-sized Duke team was mauled inside.

[Kedsy]

Meagher absolutely brought a hockey mentality to the game. Unlike Barrett or Greg Newton--don't know about Cameron Hall-Meagher played lots of hockey when he was young. He did not shy from contact.

I was on the Duke ice hockey team during Meagher's freshman year. We tried to get him onto the team. Dan was supposedly interested, but Coach K said no.

[jimsumner]

I was on the Duke ice hockey team during Meagher's freshman year. We tried to get him onto the team. Dan was supposedly interested, but Coach K said no.

Interestingly, the last time I talked to this prototypical Canadian, Meagher was living in south Florida.

[MChambers]

As much as I hate to correct you, Jim, it's scut work, not scud work. Scud means to move quickly in a straight line. The phrase "scut work" is medical jargon for menial tasks that have to be accomplished in the hospital setting that nobody wants to do.

Scuds are a small type of freshwater shrimp, also known as gammarus. Zion is not doing the work of shrimps.

[OldPhiKap]

Interestingly, the last time I talked to this prototypical Canadian, Meagher was living in south Florida.

Well, he did get a Duke degree. He knows that 82>50 in temperature as well as in all other contexts.

[devildeac]

As much as I hate to correct you, Jim, it's scut work, not scud work. Scud means to move quickly in a straight line. The phrase "scut work" is medical jargon for menial tasks that have to be accomplished in the hospital setting that nobody wants to do *usually reserved for medical students, interns or those physicians working on epic electronic health records:p.

*Clarification :o.

[devildeac]

Scuds are a small type of freshwater shrimp, also known as gammarus. Zion is not doing the work of shrimps.

Scuds are also these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scud

Maybe the term fits Zion after all. :D

[slower]

Aw man, Josh Hairston just missed another mid-range, baseline jumper! :p

And DeMarcus Nelson just drove into the lane and turned it over.

[LasVegas]

*Clarification :o.

Epic as in THE Epic EHR? That’s how I make my living :)

[Old Dukie]

They pushed the ball up on us and our transition defense left a lot to be desired. Our defensive rotations were slow and we left the 3 unguarded. These are all things that can be worked on . We will go into the fire against some teams, perhaps Gonzaga will be a major test. Our offense needs to move the ball with passes instead of trying to go one on one into a packed defense. All good leasrning experiences as a team

Most teams will try to push the ball up the court on us....K needs to insert a backcourt "chaser" in those games to slow down the ball movement - it gives the defense time to get set.

[Old Dukie]

I realize we are in the early part of the season and K tends to have a longer bench, but I like the idea of a longer bench with this team. We have four very talented freshman (not ignoring Joey, but I think he's a redshirt), but can we afford to play them 35+ minutes (we haven't yet by the way)? Injuries often come from fatigue. We have 4 guys that can rotate in well and give different looks (I left out Jordan G, but I think he needs to be developed). White and AOC have good outside shots. White, De Laurier and Bolden can rebound and defend, especially against size. Bolden has shown some inside moves that weren't there last year, but he may only have 15-20 minutes in him

Any thoughts (besides we've never done it before)

I totally agree with a longer bench! Not only does it give rest time, but bench should be used to send messages to overly attention-seeking FROSH. If you can't play with the team on the floor, then sit with them on the bench! DISCIPLINE is so important when you only have these prima donnas for a year.

[Steven43]

I totally agree with a longer bench!
Prepare to be disappointed, son.

[Kedsy]

Most teams will try to push the ball up the court on us...

Really? Generally the less talented team wants fewer possessions, not more. I think the team that hopes for success against Duke will slow it down and hope to beat us with guile and backdoor cuts. If they try to push the ball they're just playing into our hands.


I totally agree with a longer bench!

The fans can vote 100% for a longer bench, but Coach K isn't going to listen any more than he has over the past 38 years. His philosophy is you always want your strongest players on the court. The only reason he subs at all is because sometimes the players need a little rest in order to be the strongest players. In big games, our four freshmen (excluding Joey) will be playing 30 to 35 minutes, probably on the higher end. Might as well just accept it.

[UrinalCake]

Yep, K likes to ride his star players. With halftime and TV timeouts, he doesn’t see fatigue as an issue. White is playing more minutes than anyone expected, but it has come at the expense of Alex and to a lesser extent Javin.

[devildeac]

Epic as in THE Epic EHR? That’s how I make my living :)

Yes. No further comment.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Yep, K likes to ride his star players. With halftime and TV timeouts, he doesn’t see fatigue as an issue. White is playing more minutes than anyone expected, but it has come at the expense of Alex and to a lesser extent Javin.

Wonder where team morale comes into that equation?

[JayZee]

Yep, K likes to ride his star players. With halftime and TV timeouts, he doesn’t see fatigue as an issue. White is playing more minutes than anyone expected, but it has come at the expense of Alex and to a lesser extent Javin.

Count me as one who feels that the interchangeability of the star (and they don't seem very prima donna like) freshmen allows K to get more creative with his substitution patterns. Kind of like a backwards Mike Dunleavy if that makes sense. He has less interchangeable parts on the bench and with Bolden, but RJ/Zion/Cam can morph based on the other 2-3 players on the court.

[Neals384]

As much as I hate to correct you, Jim, it's scut work, not scud work. Scud means to move quickly in a straight line. The phrase "scut work" is medical jargon for menial tasks that have to be accomplished in the hospital setting that nobody wants to do.

Thanks for giving us the scut-tlebutt, rsvman