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53n206
11-08-2018, 02:44 PM
Saw an article on ESPN about how devastating 'eurostep" is in the pros. On Google saw a clip of James Harden using the step- really slick. Do players on our team use this technique?

uh_no
11-08-2018, 02:45 PM
Saw an article on ESPN about how devastating 'eurostep" is in the pros. On Google saw a clip of James Harden using the step- really slick. Do players on our team use this technique?

there's a reason it's devastating....because it's travelling.

#GetOffMyLawn

NSDukeFan
11-08-2018, 02:53 PM
Saw an article on ESPN about how devastating 'eurostep" is in the pros. On Google saw a clip of James Harden using the step- really slick. Do players on our team use this technique?
I believe this is one of the myriad ways R.J. Barrett gets to the hoop. I think he uses every method to get to the basket.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-08-2018, 02:55 PM
Saw an article on ESPN about how devastating 'eurostep" is in the pros. On Google saw a clip of James Harden using the step- really slick. Do players on our team use this technique?
Zion doesn’t need a eurostep. Opponents just quiver and get out of his way...

kAzE
11-08-2018, 03:03 PM
Zion doesn’t need a eurostep. Opponents just quiver and get out of his way...

Zion actually prefers to do a jump stop, because he can jump stop to about 10 feet away from the rim, and simply take off from that point and actually get to the rim without taking another step. However, I do believe he's the only player in the universe who can do that.

JNort
11-08-2018, 03:07 PM
Saw an article on ESPN about how devastating 'eurostep" is in the pros. On Google saw a clip of James Harden using the step- really slick. Do players on our team use this technique?

Grayson employed it religiously during his tenure here.

devilsince1977
11-08-2018, 09:41 PM
Zion used a Eurostep in one of the games in Canada.

construe
11-08-2018, 10:23 PM
there's a reason it's devastating...because it's travelling.

This is a question I've always had: is the Eurostep traveling, or is it just jumping off the "wrong" foot (e.g., right foot for right-handers)?

The latter looks real awkward, and hence make it look like traveling, but I don't think it's traveling. (Or is the Euro-step really an extra step?)

I also used have a beef with the jump-stop, but I think that works only if you then jump off both feet at the same time and shoot (or pass) immediately. If you lift up just one foot after a jump-stop, that's traveling, I think.

I know the KY fans were calling very loudly for traveling Tues night...I suspect we'll hear those calls about RJ esp many times this season...

cato
11-08-2018, 10:26 PM
This is a question I've always had: is the Eurostep traveling, or is it just jumping off the "wrong" foot (e.g., right foot for right-handers)?
.

It is not traveling, although I’m sure people travel while trying to do it.

uh_no
11-08-2018, 11:18 PM
It is not traveling, although I’m sure people travel while trying to do it.

some of us don't accept that you should get "two steps" at all...

devildeac
11-08-2018, 11:23 PM
some of us don't accept that you should get "two steps" at all...

Tyler H would argue this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM3jgkChV6M

Maybe even 4 or 5. :mad:

JetpackJesus
11-09-2018, 12:23 AM
This is a question I've always had: is the Eurostep traveling, or is it just jumping off the "wrong" foot (e.g., right foot for right-handers)?

The latter looks real awkward, and hence make it look like traveling, but I don't think it's traveling. (Or is the Euro-step really an extra step?)

I also used have a beef with the jump-stop, but I think that works only if you then jump off both feet at the same time and shoot (or pass) immediately. If you lift up just one foot after a jump-stop, that's traveling, I think.

I know the KY fans were calling very loudly for traveling Tues night...I suspect we'll hear those calls about RJ esp many times this season...
If done properly it's not traveling. Also, in the NBA at least, I think people forget about or do not understand the gather. You get two steps after the gather. It's legal even if to looks like it shouldn't be.

Also, I think you are using jump stop incorrectly. With a proper jump stop (landing on both feet without having taken a step beforehand) either foot can be a pivot. What you're describing is taking a first step and then coming down on both feet. You can do that, but then you have no pivot. But you can lift one or both feet so long as the ball is released for a shot or pass before the foot/feet return(s) to the floor. That is, you don't have to jump off both feet.

Also, it's legal in all situations to pick up your pivot foot if you shoot or pass before returning it to the floor. You cannot lift your pivot foot and then dribble. This is the travel that refs at all levels miss the most, IMO.

subzero02
11-09-2018, 12:51 AM
NBA: The most dangerous two-step in the game
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25206602/most-dangerous-two-step-game

Here's the article

gus
11-09-2018, 09:23 AM
there's a reason it's devastating...because it's travelling.

#GetOffMyLawn


Do you mean it *should* be travelling? Because under the rules, it is not.

Acymetric
11-09-2018, 09:28 AM
You cannot lift your pivot foot and then dribble. This is the travel that refs at all levels miss the most, IMO.

Wait, is that true? That seems weird, maybe I am visualizing it wrong. Why would it be ok to pass or shoot, but not start dribbling?

fraggler
11-09-2018, 09:42 AM
some of us don't accept that you should get "two steps" at all...

So no normal layups, either?

campered
11-09-2018, 09:50 AM
Do you mean it *should* be travelling? Because under the rules, it is not.

So a player moves his pivot foot, even slightly, while holding the ball, travelling is called. A player takes two GIANT steps to the basket with NO dribble, it is fine.............Complete BS!!! Rules or no rules.. The so called Eurostep is a misnomer, for this was going on in the NBA for a long time before this phrase came on the scene..

fraggler
11-09-2018, 09:56 AM
I feel like there was already a discussion about this last year. A proper Eurostep is just a normal two step layup where the player changes direction with the first step (sometimes the second as well) instead of going in a straight line. What does it matter that the steps are bigger and look more awkward (which is part of why it works)?

uh_no
11-09-2018, 10:56 AM
So no normal layups, either?

"normal" is not necessarily well defined. One could argue that "normal" involves no dribbling at all, a-la the original rules. So yes, if you had to dribble all the way to your last step, I would probably be okay with it.

That said, IMO the intention of the 2 step rule was to allow you to make a shot in stride....not so you could tuck the ball and bulldoze through the defense like a running back. The whole point of requiring a dribble was so the defense could dispossess the ball if you chose to move. If players can span the entire defense without having to dribble, it defeats the purpose.

Tripping William
11-09-2018, 11:34 AM
NBA: The most dangerous two-step in the game
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25206602/most-dangerous-two-step-game

Here's the article

It may be a different game, but Carter Beauford (https://youtu.be/xJEygqUKcvs?t=569) begs to differ. :cool:

JayZee
11-09-2018, 11:50 AM
This is a question I've always had: is the Eurostep traveling, or is it just jumping off the "wrong" foot (e.g., right foot for right-handers)?

The latter looks real awkward, and hence make it look like traveling, but I don't think it's traveling. (Or is the Euro-step really an extra step?)

I also used have a beef with the jump-stop, but I think that works only if you then jump off both feet at the same time and shoot (or pass) immediately. If you lift up just one foot after a jump-stop, that's traveling, I think.

I know the KY fans were calling very loudly for traveling Tues night...I suspect we'll hear those calls about RJ esp many times this season...

To be fair, I think KY fans had a point for at least one of Zion's jump stops where it looked to me like a jump stop with a subsequent step. My duke blue glasses also picked up a push which caused the step, but not sure the ref made that calculation in real time. Either way it's not changing much on the outcome of the game clearly.

Gorilla
11-09-2018, 11:51 AM
So a player moves his pivot foot, even slightly, while holding the ball, travelling is called. A player takes two GIANT steps to the basket with NO dribble, it is fine......Complete BS!!! Rules or no rules.. The so called Eurostep is a misnomer, for this was going on in the NBA for a long time before this phrase came on the scene..

two steps are two steps. There isn't a rule that states a player should only a certain distance when taking two steps. Once a person picks up there dribble they arent allowed to move their pivot...i don't understand your logic

fraggler
11-09-2018, 12:16 PM
"normal" is not necessarily well defined. One could argue that "normal" involves no dribbling at all, a-la the original rules. So yes, if you had to dribble all the way to your last step, I would probably be okay with it.

That said, IMO the intention of the 2 step rule was to allow you to make a shot in stride...not so you could tuck the ball and bulldoze through the defense like a running back. The whole point of requiring a dribble was so the defense could dispossess the ball if you chose to move. If players can span the entire defense without having to dribble, it defeats the purpose.

This feels like an abnormally old-school take to bring up the original rules which were created well over 100 years ago. As far as my short research can tell, since 1909, with the adoption of continuous dribbling, a single step has been allowed after picking up your dribble, so dribbling until your last step as a "normal" layup has never existed. The two step layup, at least as interpreted by the referees in the NBA, has been unofficially in the rule books since at least the 50's, with it becoming officially part of the rules (NBA at least), in 2009. Regardless, if you at least accept the 2 steps in stride as a normal layup, at what point do body contortions and direction of travel go too far for you? Reverse layups, wrong foot/wrong hand layups, change of pace, etc, etc. have been part of the evolving art of evading defenders for decades. The Eurostep is simply a variation of that. I honestly don't see how that is breaking with the intention of the rules.

And as far as covering more ground than acceptable, at 40, I'd be lucky to cover 6 feet with a simple layup nowadays. IMO, that an NBA or high-level NCAA athlete can cover from 3 pt line to the basket while changing directions is a fun marvel of genetics and training, not a spirit of the rules violation.

JetpackJesus
11-09-2018, 01:20 PM
Wait, is that true? That seems weird, maybe I am visualizing it wrong. Why would it be ok to pass or shoot, but not start dribbling?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in that description. You have to release the ball for (initiate) your dribble before lifting your pivot foot. You cannot pick up your pivot foot while still holding the ball, and then initiate a dribble. The ball doesn't have to bounce first before lifting the pivot. Sorry if my post suggested that.

Anyway, if you think about it from a defensive perspective it makes a lot of sense because lifting the pivot and then dribbling gives an enormous advantage to the ball handler. If the ball handler's pivot foot is his left foot, he has limited directions and ways he can initiate his dribble because he must push off with his left foot and only in a direction he can achieve while maintaining the pivot. If you allow him to lift his pivot foot and then dribble, the ball handler can then take off in directions allowed if the right foot were the pushing off foot. Likewise, as a defender, you know that once the ball handler lifts his pivot that he'll be taking a shot or making a pass before he puts the foot back down on the ground. On-ball defense would be nearly impossible if the rule didn't work this way.

For example, the dribbler could step forward with his right foot, pick up his left (pivot) foot, step completely past the defender and then initiate the dribble before returning the left foot to the ground if the rule did not work this way. That's practically unguardable.

It's hard to describe, so I looked for a video and found one. At the 0:29 mark he demonstrates the legal way (releases ball before lifting pivot). At the 1:09 mark he demonstrates the illegal way (lifts pivot before releasing ball for dribble).

https://youtu.be/fcoUc6K-g9k?t=69

In the illegal example, he receives the ball about 23' from the basket and to the right (if back to the basket) of the elbow. By lifting his pivot before dribbling, he is effectively able to initiate his dribble from the middle of the court and nearly inside the arc. If he weren't trying to be subtle about it, he could have covered even more ground than that before dribbling.

-jk
11-09-2018, 03:46 PM
two steps are two steps. There isn't a rule that states a player should only a certain distance when taking two steps. Once a person picks up there dribble they arent allowed to move their pivot...i don't understand your logic

Not quite true. He can pick his pivot foot up, but it can't land again before shooting the ball (from last year's rules; haven't retrieved this year's yet):



Rule 9, Sec 5, Art. 5. After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. The pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.

So, imagine gathering the ball and establishing a pivot foot, lifting the pivot foot and proceeding to the other foot, and then launching for a shot (of any sort) before the pivot lands. All in speed/rhythm. AKA, the "Euro-step".


-jk

construe
11-09-2018, 04:04 PM
Also, I think you are using jump stop incorrectly. With a proper jump stop (landing on both feet without having taken a step beforehand) either foot can be a pivot. What you're describing is taking a first step and then coming down on both feet. You can do that, but then you have no pivot. But you can lift one or both feet so long as the ball is released for a shot or pass before the foot/feet return(s) to the floor. That is, you don't have to jump off both feet.

Coincidentally, in this analysis of the Duke-KY game someone posted (thanks!) on the post-game thread at the 7:27 mark, you see what I think of as a textbook jump-stop (https://youtu.be/bCjjk5n9MuA?t=448): the player gathers, takes 1 step, then jumps and stops on both feet, then jumps off both feet to pass (in this case). I think if he had lifted one foot, that would be trying to establish a pivot with the other foot, but you can't at that point because, technically, you've taken your "two steps" already (just that one of them was a jump).

In any case, it's weird because imagine I'm a righty and I'm going up for a lay-up: take one step with my right foot while gathering the ball, then jump off my left (2 steps), then shoot. But with the jump-stop it's like I'm in temporal stasis (shout out to Jack Vance!)...I can simply wait there forever (technically) w/o doing anything w the ball (except I can't dribble). It's like going up for a lay-up, but then freezing on your 2nd step and waiting. That would prob be called a travel, but it's not with the jump-stop.

JetpackJesus
11-09-2018, 06:29 PM
Coincidentally, in this analysis of the Duke-KY game someone posted (thanks!) on the post-game thread at the 7:27 mark, you see what I think of as a textbook jump-stop (https://youtu.be/bCjjk5n9MuA?t=448): the player gathers, takes 1 step, then jumps and stops on both feet, then jumps off both feet to pass (in this case). I think if he had lifted one foot, that would be trying to establish a pivot with the other foot, but you can't at that point because, technically, you've taken your "two steps" already (just that one of them was a jump).

In any case, it's weird because imagine I'm a righty and I'm going up for a lay-up: take one step with my right foot while gathering the ball, then jump off my left (2 steps), then shoot. But with the jump-stop it's like I'm in temporal stasis (shout out to Jack Vance!)...I can simply wait there forever (technically) w/o doing anything w the ball (except I can't dribble). It's like going up for a lay-up, but then freezing on your 2nd step and waiting. That would prob be called a travel, but it's not with the jump-stop.
That all sounds right, and that video is a perfect example of what you're describing. I just wanted to note the distinction between what you've just described above (where you have to jump off both feet because you have no pivot foot), and the situation where you land on both feet without having previously taken a step. Easiest example of the latter that I can think of is catching the ball while in the air. If you land with both feet at the same time, either foot can be your pivot. If one foot touches before the other, the first foot to touch becomes your pivot. It's essentially the same as if you caught the ball while standing perfectly still.


Not quite true. He can pick his pivot foot up, but it can't land again before shooting the ball (from last year's rules; haven't retrieved this year's yet):



So, imagine gathering the ball and establishing a pivot foot, lifting the pivot foot and proceeding to the other foot, and then launching for a shot (of any sort) before the pivot lands. All in speed/rhythm. AKA, the "Euro-step".


-jk

Or passing it.

CDu
11-10-2018, 05:12 PM
This is a question I've always had: is the Eurostep traveling, or is it just jumping off the "wrong" foot (e.g., right foot for right-handers)?

Not necessarily either, actually. The Eurostep is a minimum-of-two-steps maneuver (by rule two steps is legal) that can be done off either foot. What makes it a Eurostep is that you take an exaggerated step in one direction (away from where you ultimately intend to go) and then an exaggerated step the other direction onto your launch foot. The launch foot can be the "right" or "wrong" foot, doesn't matter. But most Eurosteppers go off of the "right" foot (i.e., left foot for a right-handed shooter).

Where it becomes a travel is if you drag one of your feet during the maneuver, making it a 3-step move.


I also used have a beef with the jump-stop, but I think that works only if you then jump off both feet at the same time and shoot (or pass) immediately. If you lift up just one foot after a jump-stop, that's traveling, I think.

No, you can pick up one foot after a true jump stop. At that point, the foot that is still on the ground becomes your pivot foot, and that one can't come off the ground and back down again without releasing the ball first, and you can't then lift your pivot foot with the other foot on the ground (which would be switching pivot feet).


I know the KY fans were calling very loudly for traveling Tues night...I suspect we'll hear those calls about RJ esp many times this season...

To be fair, there were a number of travels missed, some on Barrett and some on Williamson. But, to be equally fair in the other direction, refs miss travelling A LOT.

Gorilla
11-10-2018, 07:56 PM
Not quite true. He can pick his pivot foot up, but it can't land again before shooting the ball (from last year's rules; haven't retrieved this year's yet):



So, imagine gathering the ball and establishing a pivot foot, lifting the pivot foot and proceeding to the other foot, and then launching for a shot (of any sort) before the pivot lands. All in speed/rhythm. AKA, the "Euro-step".


-jk


I agree lol the pivot foot wasn't my argument. It was the person i initially replied to who spoke about how sometimes two steps could be a travel depending on the distance

construe
11-10-2018, 09:49 PM
Not necessarily either, actually. The Eurostep is a minimum-of-two-steps maneuver (by rule two steps is legal) that can be done off either foot. What makes it a Eurostep is that you take an exaggerated step in one direction (away from where you ultimately intend to go) and then an exaggerated step the other direction onto your launch foot. The launch foot can be the "right" or "wrong" foot, doesn't matter. But most Eurosteppers go off of the "right" foot (i.e., left foot for a right-handed shooter).

And coincidentally again, ESPN just posted (https://t.co/xvtJq1N6Oq) Giannis doing a Eurostep...off his "wrong" foot! :D

(But I think you're also right that the exaggerated strides make it more of Eurostep, too...)


No, you can pick up one foot after a true jump stop. At that point, the foot that is still on the ground becomes your pivot foot, and that one can't come off the ground and back down again without releasing the ball first, and you can't then lift your pivot foot with the other foot on the ground (which would be switching pivot feet).

Hmmm...not sure I agree with this. Look back at the link I posted to Herro jump-stopping in the Duke-KY game...I don't think he could lift one foot once he came down w/o being called for a travel.

CDu
11-11-2018, 05:43 AM
And coincidentally again, ESPN just posted (https://t.co/xvtJq1N6Oq) Giannis doing a Eurostep...off his "wrong" foot! :D

(But I think you're also right that the exaggerated strides make it more of Eurostep, too...)

Yes, you can jump off either foot. Note that Antetokounmpo dunks with his left hand, making his takeoff with the right foot the "right" foot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_step
https://www.sportslingo.com/sports-glossary/e/euro-step/
https://www.hardwoodventures.com/blogs/basketball-training-and-advice/8396343-dwayne-wade-teaches-you-the-euro-step


Hmmm...not sure I agree with this. Look back at the link I posted to Herro jump-stopping in the Duke-KY game...I don't think he could lift one foot once he came down w/o being called for a travel.

If you take a step before you jump stop, then you can only jump (both feet off at the same time) and release the ball.

If you don't take a step before you jump stop, you can then choose your pivot foot. The jump stop in and of itself does not take away your ability to maintain a pivot foot; what you do prior to the jump stop (specifically, WHEN you pick up your dribble) does.

https://www.coachesclipboard.net/JumpStop.html

Key quote:


2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands;
(1) Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
(2) On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
(3) On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

b. If one foot is on the floor;
(1) It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
(2) The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

campered
11-11-2018, 08:29 AM
two steps are two steps. There isn't a rule that states a player should only a certain distance when taking two steps. Once a person picks up there dribble they arent allowed to move their pivot...i don't understand your logic

Moving your foot has nothing to do with or without dribbling! You cannot do it period, my friend, if you have the ball. My logic is moving a foot even slightly is called travelling, taking two or three steps is not!!

campered
11-11-2018, 08:48 AM
Moving your foot has nothing to do with or without dribbling! You cannot do it period, my friend, if you have the ball. My logic is moving a foot even slightly is called travelling, taking two or three steps is not!!

Should have specified moving foot not established as the pivot. Now, I am travelling, saying you cannot move either foot. Of course it is your pivot foot you must keep from moving!!