MBB: Duke vs. Army (Sun, Nov 11, 1pm ET, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[ChillinDuke]

Not to be the wet blanket, but we have another game coming up. Which is great. Because it means the season is actually here in earnest.

#228 Army's Black Knights are next, fresh off a tight 73-69 win over #259 Marist.

ESPN lists Army's roster as having 25 players. What?! I pulled up CBS, and they too list 25 players. So now I'm kinda upset I started posting this much more complicated preview than previously thought.

I keed (sorta).

The Black Knights return their top 4 scorers and 5 of their top 6 minute getters off a team that finished 13-17 last year with its most impressive win over, you all guessed it, UMBC (by 11 on 12/1). To better calibrate, they lost at Wake Forest by 29 on 12/8/17. Their most notable addition is 6'2" freshman starting guard Josh Caldwell, although two other freshmen got burn against Marist: 6'0" guard Aaron Duhart and 6'8" forward Ben Kinker.

Army started 4 guards and 1 big in their game against Marist.

On the front line, Army started 6'9" junior forward Matt Wilson, who scored 24 against Marist on 8-8 shooting and 8-12 FTs to go along with 6 rebounds. Matt averaged 12 and 6 last year as a sophomore but notably didn't even attempt a three point shot. Back-up bigs include a seemingly generic slew of 6'8" players including senior John Miller, sophomore Alex King, and freshman Ben Kinker. Those three combined for 3 pts, 6 boards, and a rejection in 35 minutes against Marist on 0-7 shooting (0-6 from 3). So not much out of the second wave.

On the perimeter, they started freshman Josh Caldwell who led the team in minutes with 30. He didn't score a ton but he filled the stat line with 5 pts, 6 rebs, 4 asts, and zero turnovers on 2-8 shooting and 1-4 threes. Freshman jitters in his first game? I think the fact that he led the team in minutes is telling. The other perimeter starters were 6'1" senior guard Jordan Fox, 6'0" junior guard Tommy Funk, and 6'4" senior guard Jacob Kessler. Fox led the team in scoring last year and scored 14 pts against Marist on 4-7 from deep. Funk led the team in minutes last year (essentially tied with Fox) and hit the clinching three pointer against Marist, finishing with 15 and 6 assists on 4-6 and 2-3 from three. Kessler played 20 minutes against Marist with very little to statistically show for it, finishing with only 1 pt, 3 rebs, but added 3 steals (he had 20 steals all of last year, so I'm not particularly worried about that stat). As far as I can tell, the biggest impact guard off their bench might be freshman Aaron Duhart who had 6 pts in 14 minutes against Marist on 2-3 from deep. Sophomore Lonnie Grayson also got 12 minutes but had very little to show for it.

So in summary, Matt Wilson appears to be the only big man of consequence on Army's squad at a height that Marques/Javin should have zero problem with and with no notable shooting range. The only guard with any notable height is 6'4" Kessler who did very little against Marist and only averaged 5.2 ppg last year. The rest of the guards are headlined by Fox and Funk with potential from relatively unknown freshman Caldwell. None of those guys are over 6'2" but should provide the bulk of the Knights' scoring punch.

There is basically nothing about this team that scares me in any way, regardless of how we looked on Tuesday night.

By all metrics, this should be a total romp. But I'll be watching, regardless.

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

Army always plays smart and physical. And I applaud their service to our Nation.

(This is my effort to make the internet a better place by saying at least one positive thing about our opponents all year. I conveniently waited until after the Kentucky game though).

First regular season home game in Cameron? That’s a mighty big ask.

[UrinalCake]

Army will literally have to bring their firearms to have any chance in this game. Much respect to our servicemen, and I love the tradition that K has established of playing his alma mater, but this game is going to be a laugher. Only thing I’ll be looking for is whether our guys continue to play hard. I expect Buckmire to get 8+ minutes on this one.

[TruBlu]

Army always plays smart and physical. And I applaud their service to our Nation.

(This is my effort to make the internet a better place by saying at least one positive thing about our opponents all year. I conveniently waited until after the Kentucky game though).

First regular season home game in Cameron? That’s a mighty big ask.

Hopefully, you will make an exception for unc in regards to saying one thing positive about our opponents. To say something positive about them would be fibbing.

[OldPhiKap]

Hopefully, you will make an exception for unc in regards to saying one thing positive about our opponents. To say something positive about them would be fibbing.

No, I've got a few months to come up with something. I'm committed to making this world a better place, one meaningless post at a time.

I went to the Duke-Army game a few years ago. It was perhaps the only visiting crowd that got 100% respect from our fans. And when we play the National Anthem at the beginning, the players line up across the whole court and show their respect. It really is a neat thing.

I wish them well this year in all their games after Saturday. And for safe travels during their service.

[BullBlue]

I was thinking about this game this morning. Duke has scored over 100 points in the last 4 games going back to McGill during the Canadian trip, not counting CTC.

Duke schedule with scores:http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22726.

The whole country, with the exception of Big Blue Nation, seems to be enjoying the drubbing Duke put on KY. We know Coach K is a patriotic guy (see Olympics) and he loves his alma mater. Will Duke score over 100 in this game also, or will Coach K try to keep the score a little more respectable, by subbing deeper into the bench than he normally would?

[gep]

Army will literally have to bring their firearms to have any chance in this game. Much respect to our servicemen, and I love the tradition that K has established of playing his alma mater, but this game is going to be a laugher. Only thing I’ll be looking for is whether our guys continue to play hard. I expect Buckmire to get 8+ minutes on this one.

I hope the guys come out as focused and play as hard as they did against KY... regardless of the score... for team-building and the future, not to overwhelm Army.


I was thinking about this game this morning. Duke has scored over 100 points in the last 4 games going back to McGill during the Canadian trip, not counting CTC.

Duke schedule with scores:http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22726.

The whole country, with the exception of Big Blue Nation, seems to be enjoying the drubbing Duke put on KY. We know Coach K is a patriotic guy (see Olympics) and he loves his alma mater. Will Duke score over 100 in this game also, or will Coach K try to keep the score a little more respectable, by subbing deeper into the bench than he normally would?

My thoughts are that Coach K will not have players put the brakes on... but play to their normal levels... again, regardless of the score. Maybe rotations will be changed and experimented, but every player on the court should be playing hard.

As Coach K has always said, respect the opponent and respect the game. To me, part of respecting the opponent is to not let up and play at half-speed. :cool:

[jimsumner]

So, Army > UMBC, UMBC> Virginia, Virginia > Duke.

We should be very afraid.

[kAzE]

So, Army > UMBC, UMBC> Virginia, Virginia > Duke.

We should be very afraid.

Duke >>>> Kentucky, therefore UMBC would probably beat Kentucky by 50.

[cato]

Katy bar the door.

[DU82]

No, I've got a few months to come up with something. I'm committed to making this world a better place, one meaningless post at a time.

I went to the Duke-Army game a few years ago. It was perhaps the only visiting crowd that got 100% respect from our fans. And when we play the National Anthem at the beginning, the players line up across the whole court and show their respect. It really is a neat thing.

I wish them well this year in all their games after Saturday. And for safe travels during their service.

And hopefully the students will NOT add "you suck" after the "Hi...", as they did against Ferris State. (Ferris State, really kids? My lawn is getting more and more crowded.)

[OldPhiKap]

And hopefully the students will NOT add "you suck" after the "Hi...", as they did against Ferris State. (Ferris State, really kids? My lawn is getting more and more crowded.)

No one did that at the Army game I attended (maybe four years ago?). And I would also be very disappointed if that was done.

I'm not a fan of that rejoinder in any game other than UNC.

[ChillinDuke]

OK, I've waited long enough.

Can someone at least tell me how the heck Army has a roster of 25 players?! I mean, it can't be a mistake on both ESPN and CBS Sports, can it?

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

OK, I've waited long enough.

Can someone at least tell me how the heck Army has a roster of 25 players?! I mean, it can't be a mistake on both ESPN and CBS Sports, can it?

- Chillin

It’s not a roster. It’s a platoon.

[pfrduke]

OK, I've waited long enough.

Can someone at least tell me how the heck Army has a roster of 25 players?! I mean, it can't be a mistake on both ESPN and CBS Sports, can it?

- Chillin

Doesn't appear to be a mistake - here's the official roster: https://goarmywestpoint.com/roster.aspx?path=mbball

Still not sure on the answer as to why (except for lots and lots of walk ons).

ETA: Not a one-year phenomenon either - last season 20 guys saw game action.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

OK, I've waited long enough.

Can someone at least tell me how the heck Army has a roster of 25 players?! I mean, it can't be a mistake on both ESPN and CBS Sports, can it?

- Chillin

They are not on an athletic scholarship.

[BigWayne]

They are not on an athletic scholarship.

Yep. Same thing goes on at Navy and Air Force because everybody is on non-athletic scholarship.

There is a NCAA travel roster limit of 15, so you won't see 25 guys in Cameron.

[camion]

Doesn't appear to be a mistake - here's the official roster: https://goarmywestpoint.com/roster.aspx?path=mbball

Still not sure on the answer as to why (except for lots and lots of walk ons).

ETA: Not a one-year phenomenon either - last season 20 guys saw game action.

They come at you in waves? :eek:


Or would that be a Navy thing?

[devildeac]

It’s not a roster. It’s a platoon.

Platoon?

Wait, what are they going to do, play five 5 man rotations?

:rolleyes::o

Start the tank.

[devildeac]

Yep. Same thing goes on at Navy and Air Force because everybody is on non-athletic scholarship.

There is a NCAA travel roster limit of 15, so you won't see 25 guys in Cameron.

I'll bet you will. The other 10 will be in camo'.

:rolleyes::o

[AGDukesky]

I'll bet you will. The other 10 will be in camo'.

:rolleyes::o

Then we definitely won’t be seeing them

[OldPhiKap]

Platoon?

Wait, what are they going to do, play five 5 man rotations?

:rolleyes::o

Start the tank.

No, but I got a copy of their last practice tape from a trusted source:

https://youtu.be/mnIBk-0KLi0

[ChillinDuke]

Yep. Same thing goes on at Navy and Air Force because everybody is on non-athletic scholarship.

There is a NCAA travel roster limit of 15, so you won't see 25 guys in Cameron.

Isn't that sort of shocking that there's not an actual roster limit?

It might be contrived, but what's to stop me from fielding a team of 50 walk-ons specifically to foul Azubuike on every possession when I play Kansas?

Or can not every player play in every game?

- Chillin

[NSDukeFan]

Do they play more than a 7 man rotation?

[tbyers11]

They come at you in waves? :eek:


Or would that be a Navy thing?

Pepperdine :D

[OldPhiKap]

Pepperdine :D

Or Tulane.

[devildeac]

Then we definitely won’t be seeing them

Not until it's too late...

[ChillinDuke]

Do they play more than a 7 man rotation?

Yes. At least it looked like they did against Marist. 9 guys got double figure minutes in a tight game. And 2 more saw 8 and 7 minutes, respectively.

Unless this was an army joke that I just don't get.

- Chillin

[NSDukeFan]

Yes. At least it looked like they did against Marist. 9 guys got double figure minutes in a tight game. And 2 more saw 8 and 7 minutes, respectively.

Unless this was an army joke that I just don't get.

- Chillin

I was just hoping with a 25 man roster they would go deeper than 7 players. Buckmire and Besser would have 10 players after them on the depth chart.

[OldPhiKap]

I was just hoping with a 25 man roster they would go deeper than 7 players. Buckmire and Besser would have 10 players after them on the depth chart.

How would a 25-man Army team, aged five years, do against an NBA team?

[Indoor66]

How would a 25-man Army team, aged five years, do against an NBA team?

Query: do they get howitzers or just small arms?

[Spanarkel]

Not to be the wet blanket, but we have another game coming up. Which is great. Because it means the season is actually here in earnest.

#228 Army's Black Knights are next, fresh off a tight 73-69 win over #259 Marist.

ESPN lists Army's roster as having 25 players. What?! I pulled up CBS, and they too list 25 players. So now I'm kinda upset I started posting this much more complicated preview than previously thought.

I keed (sorta).

The Black Knights return their top 4 scorers and 5 of their top 6 minute getters off a team that finished 13-17 last year with its most impressive win over, you all guessed it, UMBC (by 11 on 12/1). To better calibrate, they lost at Wake Forest by 29 on 12/8/17. Their most notable addition is 6'2" freshman starting guard Josh Caldwell, although two other freshmen got burn against Marist: 6'0" guard Aaron Duhart and 6'8" forward Ben Kinker.

Army started 4 guards and 1 big in their game against Marist.

On the front line, Army started 6'9" junior forward Matt Wilson, who scored 24 against Marist on 8-8 shooting and 8-12 FTs to go along with 6 rebounds. Matt averaged 12 and 6 last year as a sophomore but notably didn't even attempt a three point shot. Back-up bigs include a seemingly generic slew of 6'8" players including senior John Miller, sophomore Alex King, and freshman Ben Kinker. Those three combined for 3 pts, 6 boards, and a rejection in 35 minutes against Marist on 0-7 shooting (0-6 from 3). So not much out of the second wave.

On the perimeter, they started freshman Josh Caldwell who led the team in minutes with 30. He didn't score a ton but he filled the stat line with 5 pts, 6 rebs, 4 asts, and zero turnovers on 2-8 shooting and 1-4 threes. Freshman jitters in his first game? I think the fact that he led the team in minutes is telling. The other perimeter starters were 6'1" senior guard Jordan Fox, 6'0" junior guard Tommy Funk, and 6'4" senior guard Jacob Kessler. Fox led the team in scoring last year and scored 14 pts against Marist on 4-7 from deep. Funk led the team in minutes last year (essentially tied with Fox) and hit the clinching three pointer against Marist, finishing with 15 and 6 assists on 4-6 and 2-3 from three. Kessler played 20 minutes against Marist with very little to statistically show for it, finishing with only 1 pt, 3 rebs, but added 3 steals (he had 20 steals all of last year, so I'm not particularly worried about that stat). As far as I can tell, the biggest impact guard off their bench might be freshman Aaron Duhart who had 6 pts in 14 minutes against Marist on 2-3 from deep. Sophomore Lonnie Grayson also got 12 minutes but had very little to show for it.

So in summary, Matt Wilson appears to be the only big man of consequence on Army's squad at a height that Marques/Javin should have zero problem with and with no notable shooting range. The only guard with any notable height is 6'4" Kessler who did very little against Marist and only averaged 5.2 ppg last year. The rest of the guards are headlined by Fox and Funk with potential from relatively unknown freshman Caldwell. None of those guys are over 6'2" but should provide the bulk of the Knights' scoring punch.

There is basically nothing about this team that scares me in any way, regardless of how we looked on Tuesday night.

By all metrics, this should be a total romp. But I'll be watching, regardless.

- Chillin

Excellent summary/much appreciated! I had the chance to see Army's Tucker Blackwell, a 6'2" sophomore guard with a nice stroke, play multiple times for Bloomington(IN)High School South, and he can get hot quickly. He shot 40% from 3 last season(but "only" 33 makes). In HS he scored 35 to force an OT game in the Regional playoff against Romeo Langford's New Albany squad which went on to win the state 4A title that year('16).
As DBR poster DavidBenAkiva can verify, Bloomington South turns out some basketball savvy if not physically overwhelming players(IU's Jordan Hulls/Xavier's Dee Davis/BYU's and Marquette's Matt Carlino).
Having said that, I don't expect a close game no matter how many 3s Tucker might drain, and he certainly might have trouble even launching an open shot against this year's Duke squad. LGD!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

This may have been stated already, but dear Lord, WHAT IS THE LINE on this game? Duke -65? (Ferris wouldn't have covered that).

[BeachBlueDevil]

If Duke wins by less than 50 will it be a disappointment?

Seriously though, good on Coach K (due to the connection of K & West Point surprised Duke doesn't play them more often) & Duke for scheduling Army on Veteran's Day weekend. A service academy will get national exposure and some recognition on such an important weekend.

[ChillinDuke]

This may have been stated already, but dear Lord, WHAT IS THE LINE on this game? Duke -65? (Ferris wouldn't have covered that).

Games like this? If I had to guess, 30 under normal circumstances. But these aren't normal circumstances as the reaction to Tuesday has been crazy strong nationally. Vegas will jump on that and juice the line as people tune in to watch a presumed 60 point slaughter.

I'd bet on Army, frankly.

- Chillin

[Troublemaker]

This may have been stated already, but dear Lord, WHAT IS THE LINE on this game? Duke -65? (Ferris wouldn't have covered that).


If Duke wins by less than 50 will it be a disappointment?

Seriously though, good on Coach K (due to the connection of K & West Point surprised Duke doesn't play them more often) & Duke for scheduling Army on Veteran's Day weekend. A service academy will get national exposure and some recognition on such an important weekend.

The line isn't out yet but I expect it to be around 34. The kenpom projection is a 28 point margin, and I'm expecting about a 6-point adjustment/tax on betting Duke because of the awesome performance on Tuesday. Now, interestingly, because we beat Kentucky by 34, lots of square bettors will be taking Duke -34 despite the tax, and the line might get pushed out to 38. Finally, around tip time, the sharp bettors will have waited long enough and will make their presence known. A line that's 10 points off from the kenpom projection? And Army is Coach K's alma mater? Yeah, give them some of that Army +38. The sharp money coming in will push the line back down to 33 or so at tip.

There's a good chance Army will lose by a smaller margin than Kentucky.

[Troublemaker]

Games like this? If I had to guess, 30 under normal circumstances. But these aren't normal circumstances as the reaction to Tuesday has been crazy strong nationally. Vegas will jump on that and juice the line as people tune in to watch a presumed 60 point slaughter.

I'd bet on Army, frankly.

- Chillin

Jinx, Chillin'. (We basically made the same post).

[TruBlu]

And hopefully the students will NOT add "you suck" after the "Hi...", as they did against Ferris State. (Ferris State, really kids? My lawn is getting more and more crowded.)

THIS!!!

I don't like this against anybody, even unc.* I especially don't like it against one of our military academies.

* I propose a different chant for unc: "Hi ... , you CHEAT"

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Games like this? If I had to guess, 30 under normal circumstances. But these aren't normal circumstances as the reaction to Tuesday has been crazy strong nationally. Vegas will jump on that and juice the line as people tune in to watch a presumed 60 point slaughter.

I'd bet on Army, frankly.

- Chillin

Two reasons that might be a wise move...
A: no way we duplicate Tuesday's performance (is there?)
B: K will call off the dogs versus his alma mater. (won't he?)

[CameronDuke]

Driving down to the game Sunday at Cameron from Virginia. I am taking my wife and it will be her first game inside Cameron. It is my first game there since 2012.

Where are the best (or free) places to park?

Thanks.

[jv001]

THIS!!!

I don't like this against anybody, even unc.* I especially don't like it against one of our military academies.

* I propose a different chant for unc: "Hi ... , you CHEAT"

I like " Hi...., you suck at CHEATING" :cool: GoDuke!

[BLPOG]

Driving down to the game Sunday at Cameron from Virginia. I am taking my wife and it will be her first game inside Cameron. It is my first game there since 2012.

Where are the best (or free) places to park?

Thanks.

They built a new hotel across from the Washington Duke, on the west side of Science Drive (same area as the Dave Thomas Center). There is a new, large parking garage on the corner. I am not sure if it's free, but it has been when I've used it. It's not a bad walk from there, past the athletic fields, to the main entrance of Cameron.

[lotusland]

OK, I've waited long enough.

Can someone at least tell me how the heck Army has a roster of 25 players?! I mean, it can't be a mistake on both ESPN and CBS Sports, can it?

- Chillin

The rotation is only 20 deep.

[NSDukeFan]

The rotation is only 20 deep.

Against conference opponents after January, only 16 players play 10 or more minutes in close games.

[Stray Gator]

They built a new hotel across from the Washington Duke, on the west side of Science Drive (same area as the Dave Thomas Center). There is a new, large parking garage on the corner. I am not sure if it's free, but it has been when I've used it. It's not a bad walk from there, past the athletic fields, to the main entrance of Cameron.

I also thought that public parking would be allowed in the new Science Drive tier garage (entering from 751/Cameron Blvd.), as it is for women's basketball games; but apparently for men's basketball games that facility is reserved entirely for Iron Dukes with parking passes. I have a cousin coming to the game on Sunday with no parking pass, so I checked with the Iron Dukes office this morning and was told that the only public parking would be in the two Circuit Drive lots. FWIW, here's a link to the parking map for men's basketball:

http://www.goduke.com/attachments1/files/4200/638948.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4200

If anyone is aware of public parking located closer to Cameron, please share that information.

[Reddevil]

And hopefully the students will NOT add "you suck" after the "Hi...", as they did against Ferris State. (Ferris State, really kids? My lawn is getting more and more crowded.)

I would love to hear, "Hi ________, THANK YOU!"

Especially on Veteran's Day weekend.

[richardjackson199]

I would love to hear, "Hi ________, THANK YOU!"

Especially on Veteran's Day weekend.

This really has to happen. Coach K would absolutely love it. Native make that happen! :cool:

But then still beat them by 50 and fill sportscenter all top 10

[uh_no]

The line isn't out yet but I expect it to be around 34. The kenpom projection is a 28 point margin, and I'm expecting about a 6-point adjustment/tax on betting Duke because of the awesome performance on Tuesday. Now, interestingly, because we beat Kentucky by 34, lots of square bettors will be taking Duke -34 despite the tax, and the line might get pushed out to 38. Finally, around tip time, the sharp bettors will have waited long enough and will make their presence known. A line that's 10 points off from the kenpom projection? And Army is Coach K's alma mater? Yeah, give them some of that Army +38. The sharp money coming in will push the line back down to 33 or so at tip.

There's a good chance Army will lose by a smaller margin than Kentucky.

is there a derivatives market on the movement of the line? I'd take some of that action.

[ChillinDuke]

is there a derivatives market on the movement of the line? I'd take some of that action.

Not that I know of, but I've often wished for it. I'd love to day trade game lines all day long for 6 months of the year.

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

is there a derivatives market on the movement of the line? I'd take some of that action.

If the line changes, does that turn this question from one of finance to one of calculus?

[uh_no]

Not that I know of, but I've often wished for it. I'd love to day trade game lines all day long for 6 months of the year.

- Chillin

i meannnn are there any regulations preventing us from starting a market in states where it is legal? Other than allowing people to further leverage themselves in something that is already often financially ruinous?

[Nepos]

Driving down to the game Sunday at Cameron from Virginia. I am taking my wife and it will be her first game inside Cameron. It is my first game there since 2012.

Where are the best (or free) places to park?

Thanks.

I have not attended a game in a number of years, but I live in Durham and suspect that I have the answer that you are seeking. If you do not mind a 15-20 min stroll each way through the beautiful gardens and main quad, you can park for free on the weekends in the Central Campus lot that is next to the gardens on Lewis St. The biggest space there is closed off for construction right now, but I highly doubt the open lots there will be full. There's an entrance to the gardens at the end of Lewis, and if you walk straight/left once you enter you will pretty quickly find your way (assume you are an alum, so no need to give further directions). I will note that on your stroll back you will pass pretty close to the new union building where you might choose to visit the Devil's Krafthouse in the old Hideaway space for a celebratory refreshment.

[thedukelamere]

I would love to hear, "Hi ________, THANK YOU!"

Especially on Veteran's Day weekend.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TangibleBeneficialIguana-small.gif

[OldPhiKap]

Wholly agree.

Would suggest ""Hi, _____, thanks for serving!" instead, just because "thank you!" in a crowd chant can sound like exactly what we don't want it to sound like.

[UrinalCake]

I like " Hi..., you suck at CHEATING" :cool: GoDuke!

Unfortunately they have proven that they’re actually quite good at cheating. Probably the best in the history of sport.

[ChillinDuke]

i meannnn are there any regulations preventing us from starting a market in states where it is legal? Other than allowing people to further leverage themselves in something that is already often financially ruinous?

Not that I'm aware of.

Granted, I haven't dug into the issue very hard.

Look, I'd follow you down this rabbit hole if you really want...

- Chillin

[Kedsy]

i meannnn are there any regulations preventing us from starting a market in states where it is legal? Other than allowing people to further leverage themselves in something that is already often financially ruinous?

My guess is wherever it's legal it would turn illegal pretty quickly if someone attempted to start the market. The problem is that while the line is generally set based on bets placed, there's no rule or law that says it has to be. If the people setting the line were participating in the derivatives market, the potential for corruption is too great. SEC generally frowns on people having direct control over whether they win or lose in a market.

[MChambers]

My guess is wherever it's legal it would turn illegal pretty quickly if someone attempted to start the market. The problem is that while the line is generally set based on bets placed, there's no rule or law that says it has to be. If the people setting the line were participating in the derivatives market, the potential for corruption is too great. SEC generally frowns on people having direct control over whether they win or lose in a market.

No security, so no SEC. Maybe the FTC would take an interest, though.

[phaedrus]

No security, so no SEC. Maybe the FTC would take an interest, though.

The definition of "security" is usually thought to be broad enough to cover... anything. See, e.g., Howey.

[Kedsy]

No security, so no SEC. Maybe the FTC would take an interest, though.


The definition of "security" is usually thought to be broad enough to cover... anything. See, e.g., Howey.

Yeah, I suspect the SEC would call it a security. And once they do, it would be really expensive to challenge them on it.

[MChambers]

The definition of "security" is usually thought to be broad enough to cover... anything. See, e.g., Howey.

I'm quite familiar with Howey. Not sure where the efforts of others would come here, though.

[SavDukeGrad]

I also thought that public parking would be allowed in the new Science Drive tier garage (entering from 751/Cameron Blvd.), as it is for women's basketball games; but apparently for men's basketball games that facility is reserved entirely for Iron Dukes with parking passes. I have a cousin coming to the game on Sunday with no parking pass, so I checked with the Iron Dukes office this morning and was told that the only public parking would be in the two Circuit Drive lots. FWIW, here's a link to the parking map for men's basketball:

http://www.goduke.com/attachments1/files/4200/638948.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4200

If anyone is aware of public parking located closer to Cameron, please share that information.

I was there for the weekend a few weeks ago, and we Ubered to both C2C and the UVA game. Both very easy and cheap. (Although apparently there are designated Uber drop off spots, neither of our drivers had a clue where they were.)

My first choice is always staying at the WaDuke and walking to Cameron, but this was Parents Weekend and the rates were exorbitant.

Several years ago, we were able to park on the circle in front of the Chapel on the weekends, if there was a spot and we got there early enough, at least several hours before the game. Or in the Bryan Center garage. I am not sure if either of those options are still possible though.

And FWIW, I have also parked in the Iron Dukes lot at Gross Chem - and that’s not a super easy walk uphill for some.

[uh_no]

My guess is wherever it's legal it would turn illegal pretty quickly if someone attempted to start the market. The problem is that while the line is generally set based on bets placed, there's no rule or law that says it has to be. If the people setting the line were participating in the derivatives market, the potential for corruption is too great. SEC generally frowns on people having direct control over whether they win or lose in a market.

I mean the same is true for any derivatives market. There's an inherent risk that the company you're betting on has corrupt leaders. I suppose with a real company, however, the board has fiduciary duty, whereas the incentive for bookies is that they want to make money on the bets....so you get a huge issue if the derivative market becomes more lucrative than the bets themselves. This also requires a high efficiency market. Otherwise (and this would likely be reality) the bookies could buy every option on the market, and change the line for fractions of a second before exercising the option. In an efficient market, the market scoops up a gazillion bets in that fraction of a second. In our contrived scenario, the only person who gets hosed is the person who gets assigned and is forced to place or take a bet a horrible line.

Even with some sort of duty to make as much profit of lines as possible, i suppose there is no way to prevent the bookies from slight alterations that make big changes in the derivative market.

[CDu]

No, I've got a few months to come up with something. I'm committed to making this world a better place, one meaningless post at a time.

I went to the Duke-Army game a few years ago. It was perhaps the only visiting crowd that got 100% respect from our fans. And when we play the National Anthem at the beginning, the players line up across the whole court and show their respect. It really is a neat thing.

I wish them well this year in all their games after Saturday. And for safe travels during their service.

I would suggest limiting your nice comments about UNC to how devoted Eric Montross is to fundraising for the NC Children’s Hospital. Outside of that...

Maybe talk about UNC’s world-class, #1-ranked public (and #2 overall) School of Public Health? Or the Lineberger Center and their efforts to fight cancer?

Can’t really help with the b-ball program or the university at large though.

[OldPhiKap]

I would suggest limiting your nice comments about UNC to how devoted Eric Montross is to fundraising for the NC Children’s Hospital. Outside of that...

Maybe talk about UNC’s world-class, #1-ranked public (and #2 overall) School of Public Health? Or the Lineberger Center and their efforts to fight cancer?

Can’t really help with the b-ball program or the university at large though.

A friend’s Southern grandmother always made a point to say something nice about everyone she met. If she couldn’t find anything, she would say — “I bet he can whistle.”

[Banana]

To get back to the question of Army’s large roster size for basketball, it should be noted that they have a roughly 200 man roster for football. They have to double up on most of the jersey numbers. I think it’s just a matter of encouraging regular cadets to be physically fit by giving them the opportunity to challenge themselves on a daily basis against talented athletes. It breeds toughness, too.

[MChambers]

To get back to the question of Army’s large roster size for basketball, it should be noted that they have a roughly 200 man roster for football. They have to double up on most of the jersey numbers. I think it’s just a matter of encouraging regular cadets to be physically fit by giving them the opportunity to challenge themselves on a daily basis against talented athletes. It breeds toughness, too.

Duke’s got to play a team with a 25 man roster and toughness? If they had talent, it would be over!

[gep]

To get back to the question of Army’s large roster size for basketball, it should be noted that they have a roughly 200 man roster for football. They have to double up on most of the jersey numbers. I think it’s just a matter of encouraging regular cadets to be physically fit by giving them the opportunity to challenge themselves on a daily basis against talented athletes. It breeds toughness, too.

Also camaraderie and teamwork :cool:

[AGDukesky]

I expect a bit of a hangover from Tuesday mixed with coach K showing respect to his alma mater on Veterans Day Eve leading to a closer score than many will anticipate against this level of opponent. Still a 20+ point easy win- albeit not as pretty.

[Troublemaker]

Relevant to some discussion in this thread. Check out the line movement on this game! (Source: SBR)

https://i.imgur.com/vaTaNF9.png


I didn't get the exact particulars right with my predictions, but on the whole, yes, if Duke beat Kentucky by 34 and you open Duke as a 31.5-pt favorite against Army, the public will bet the line up.

I still expect that closer to tip time, some sharp money will slam the 39.5/40-pt spread (or whatever it is by then) down.

[uh_no]

Relevant to some discussion in this thread. Check out the line movement on this game! (Source: SBR)

https://i.imgur.com/vaTaNF9.png


I didn't get the exact particulars right with my predictions, but on the whole, yes, if Duke beat Kentucky by 34 and you open Duke as a 31.5-pt favorite against Army, the public will bet the line up.

I still expect that closer to tip time, some sharp money will slam the 39.5/40-pt spread (or whatever it is by then) down.

expecting a 40 point win against anyone is absurd...let alone in a game where there will likely be huge incentive to let off the afterburners. I'd take army at 31. 44? That's bonkers.

[ChillinDuke]

Relevant to some discussion in this thread. Check out the line movement on this game! (Source: SBR)

https://i.imgur.com/vaTaNF9.png


I didn't get the exact particulars right with my predictions, but on the whole, yes, if Duke beat Kentucky by 34 and you open Duke as a 31.5-pt favorite against Army, the public will bet the line up.

I still expect that closer to tip time, some sharp money will slam the 39.5/40-pt spread (or whatever it is by then) down.

That's very similar to what I expected.

I have a rule of thumb. Never. Ever. Bet a 40pt line. (And probably a 30pt line)

- Chillin

[duke4ever19]

The front page article on Army states that Duke had a loss of concentration in the UK game, yet in the postgame press conference, Coach K specifically states that he was impressed that the team did not lose its concentration when they held big leads vs. UK. He said it was a impressive considering the relative youth of the starting five.

The "lose concentration" argument often makes sense, especially with younger teams, but I'm with K on this one. I was impressed with the consistency of the team's focus on playing good basketball, despite the score.

[Bob Green]

I think it’s just a matter of encouraging regular cadets to be physically fit...

I'm not sure if you're serious or joking around but cadets are not encouraged to be physically fit they are required to be physically fit. Failing your physical fitness test has consequences leading to dismissal if not corrected.

Moreover, there is no such thing as a "regular" cadet. Cadets are cadets. Basketball players, football players, etc...are not special at the service academies.

[-jk]

DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open!

If it gets a bit slow, refresh the page. If you're on a mobile device, you'll need to select "Blue" at the bottom.

As always - please follow the DBR Posting Guidelines.

Let's Go Duke!

-jk

[OldPhiKap]

Ted Valentine is one of the refs today. It was nice while it lasted.

[duke09hms]

I'm not sure if you're serious or joking around but cadets are not encouraged to be physically fit they are required to be physically fit. Failing your physical fitness test has consequences leading to dismissal if not corrected.

Moreover, there is no such thing as a "regular" cadet. Cadets are cadets. Basketball players, football players, etc...are not special at the service academies.

Not so much basketball players, but football players are VERY VERY special at the service academies. In general, corps squad cadets are exempt from many of the duties.

[Bob Green]

In general, corps squad cadets are exempt from many of the duties.

I'll take your word for it.

[jacone21]

Ted Valentine is one of the refs today. It was nice while it lasted.

He was in Statesboro doing a Georgia Southern exhibition game a couple weeks back. I figured maybe he had been exiled back to the Sun Belt again. Dude gets around.

[4Gen]

Spatola may as well have said Austen Rivers was a team cancer

[arnie]

Defense in 1st 10 minutes is atrocious. Got to keep them off 3 pt line

[AGDukesky]

Clearly should be up more but Williamson putting on a show.This what bad Barrett does to a team when he forces shots and drives.

[dukelifer]

Clearly should be up more but Williamson putting on a show.This what bad Barrett does to a team when he forces shots and drives.

D is an issue. Will be so for a while

[Bluedog]

Ted Valentine is one of the refs today. It was nice while it lasted.

Big Ten has said no more Valentine. The ACC unfortunately, has not done that.

Having said that, he's certainly not our problem today thus far. Too many outside shots and poor D.

[chrishoke]

Disciplined and quick Army taking our group of headline readers (not Zion) to the wood shed. Where is RJ?

[chrishoke]

Army playing beautiful basketball.

[chrishoke]

Thank God for Zion and Jack White.

[duke4ever19]

I won't be surprised if Army is gassed about halfway through the second half.

[arnie]

Disciplined and quick Army taking our group of headline readers (not Zion) to the wood shed. Where is RJ?

Unfortunately RJ is there. 3-10, 3 TOs and only 1 assist. His D has been bad.

OTOH, Zion phenomenal.

[dukelifer]

Thank God for Zion and Jack White.

This is basketball with Freshman- one day great- one day scratching your head. This team can score but they are getting burned on D. They will get better but expect to worry a lot until January.

[DU82]

I won't be surprised if Army is gassed about halfway through the second half.

Too many players have been rotated in and out. Plus, I’d expect they’re in better shape than most of our opponents.

[TruBlu]

Until we get some kinks worked out, we need to play more cupcakes... like Kentucky.

[hsheffield]

They’re hitting a LOT of 3s! Seems like more than 50%.
Zion is asking for the ball almost every play. Not enough rebounding. The frosh except Zion seem a little deer in the headlights

[slower]

This what bad Barrett does to a team when he forces shots and drives.

This is one of the concerns that I've seen expressed in various places. Zion is fairly efficient so far, but Barrett is very ball-dominant. Not quite Tatum-level, but still obvious. I don't necessarily foresee problems, since this doesn't look to be another "Kennard is invisible to Tatum when he has the ball" scenario. Still, RJ is a true alpha-dog, and he will seemingly use his powers for good, not evil. :p

[dukelifer]

They’re hitting a LOT of 3s! Seems like more than 50%.
Zion is asking for the ball almost every play. Not enough rebounding. The frosh except Zion seem a little deer in the headlights

7-15 - nice but not unconscious

[Eternal Outlaw]

Need to stop collapsing so much on their drives so they can't kick to open guys for three, lets see if they can make tough twos over the height and long arms. Been at least a few times we had guys collapse even though the defender was still in front with a big help down low and could force a tough shot. 7-15 from three, 9-25 from 2.

Score feels a little misleading, they had a few tip balls bounce right to them and got easy scores off the havoc the tip created. If those bounce to us they are easy transition scores.

[duke4ever19]

Too many players have been rotated in and out. Plus, I’d expect they’re in better shape than most of our opponents.

Physical shape is only one factor of several that contributes to that feeling of being exhausted.

[jipops]

We are uke.

[hsheffield]

7-15 - nice but not unconscious

Thanks for the numbers. Looks like more from here.

[AGDukesky]

I’d like to thank the players for lowering my previous sky-high expectations to a reasonable level

[arnie]

We are uke.

Yep,looks like the mtm D from each of the previous 3-4 squads.

[luvdahops]

We are uke.

Watching from behind the basket where Army shooting this half. Our guys are regularly losing their men and helping where none is needed.

[Eternal Outlaw]

Collapse for easy threes, lead shrinks, make them shoot tough twos, grows, lets just stop the threes from here and see if they can string twos together, so far they haven't proven that as a way to consistently score

[WVDUKEFAN]

Is Bolden in trouble again?

[Billy Dat]

JJ Reddish

[hsheffield]

Zion 23 points, 16 rb and 5 blocks