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JasonEvans
10-24-2018, 06:21 PM
Doesn't have to be about Dukies. Other stuff happening in the league goes in this thread.

Let me kick things off by saying Joel Embiid should have gotten a lot more than a warning for this $%(*%)(^@@ (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25074729/joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-warned-flopping-andre-drummond-detroit-pistons-technical-foul-rescinded). His acting caused a key player to be ejected from a game. Luckily, the Pistons won but they could easily have lost this OT tilt and that would have truly been a crime.

-Jason "I don't know why the refs could not quickly consult a taped replay to determine that Embiid was flopping and Drummond had done nothing wrong. Every sport has replay except the NBA... sheesh!" Evans

JetpackJesus
10-24-2018, 07:08 PM
Doesn't have to be about Dukies. Other stuff happening in the league goes in this thread.

Let me kick things off by saying Joel Embiid should have gotten a lot more than a warning for this $%(*%)(^@@ (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25074729/joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-warned-flopping-andre-drummond-detroit-pistons-technical-foul-rescinded). His acting caused a key player to be ejected from a game. Luckily, the Pistons won but they could easily have lost this OT tilt and that would have truly been a crime.

-Jason "I don't know why the refs could not quickly consult a taped replay to determine that Embiid was flopping and Drummond had done nothing wrong. Every sport has replay except the NBA... sheesh!" Evans

The NBA does have replay (http://www.nba.com/official/instant-replay-guidelines.html#), though. I guess it wasn't triggered here because the ref called a Technical rather than a Flagrant. It doesn't look like they can rescind a foul call completely after review, but the refs could change it to a common foul, which would have prevented the ejection. Also, the refs would have been allowed to call a Technical on Embiid for unsportsmanlike conduct based on the review.

But hey, if the NBA doesn't work out for him for whatever reason, Embiid may have a future in soccer.

JasonEvans
10-24-2018, 07:19 PM
I'm really having trouble with the Sixers. I love the faith they have put in JJ (and the money they have put in his pocket) but there are not many other likable guys on that team. Embiid is a major-league punk. I sorta hate that in Simmons and Fultz they have two of the most talented and yet least accomplished (in terms of winning) NCAA players of the past half decade. I don't really care much about Robert Covington or Dario Saric.

--Jason "If it was not for JJ, the Sixers would be waaaay up on the scale of teams I root against" Evans

BigZ
10-24-2018, 10:40 PM
There is no defense so far this season.

elvis14
10-25-2018, 08:36 AM
Wow, Steph Curry with 11 3's and 51 points....in 3 quarters last night. He was on fire. NBA season is less than a week old and it's already so much fun.

fraggler
10-25-2018, 09:47 AM
Wow, Steph Curry with 11 3's and 51 points...in 3 quarters last night. He was on fire. NBA season is less than a week old and it's already so much fun.

That's what happens when you mess with his little bro.

nmduke2001
10-25-2018, 10:00 AM
I would definitely consider his handle elite.

Mods, can you move the Harden discussion to the non-Duke NBA thread? I'd like to continue but I'm the people on this thread are sick of it. Thanks.

Acymetric
10-25-2018, 11:32 AM
There is no defense so far this season.

Heard on ESPN yesterday that the "7 seconds or less" D'Antoni Suns would rank dead last in pace of play this year. That is pure insanity, and not something that I'm totally sure I enjoy.

JNort
10-25-2018, 11:53 AM
Heard on ESPN yesterday that the "7 seconds or less" D'Antoni Suns would rank dead last in pace of play this year. That is pure insanity, and not something that I'm totally sure I enjoy.
To be fair it's not that the defenses are playing all that poorly. There were just a few rule changes that are gonna inflate scores a little bit and others are gonna take time for defenses to adjust too.

JasonEvans
10-25-2018, 02:27 PM
Hey look, Steph is bombing 35-footers like they are layups.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8E0t0pigLU

It should be noted that this kind of insane shooting prowess makes like soooo much easier for his teammates. It forces teams to cover -- sometimes even double cover -- Steph from 40 feet out. Talk about creating space for other guys to operate!!

bullettoothtony
10-25-2018, 03:20 PM
I've never seen anything like it. I mean Redick's senior year was phenomenal, and his range was tremendous. But not like this.

Curry's ability to hit shots from that far out with any degree of frequency is surreal.

phaedrus
10-25-2018, 03:56 PM
I've never seen anything like it. I mean Redick's senior year was phenomenal, and his range was tremendous. But not like this.

Curry's ability to hit shots from that far out with any degree of frequency is surreal.

Redick (one of the best college shooters of all time) has improved dramatically as a shooter since college - and he's still in a different league than Curry.

I imagine that if not for Curry, we would be hearing lots of comparisons between Redick, Klay Thompson, and Kyle Korver, and how they rank against some of the all-time great perimeter shooters (Allen, Miller, Nash, Bird, etc.) But Curry just moots the whole discussion.

rsvman
10-25-2018, 05:12 PM
That highlight video is pretty freaking impressive.

JNort
10-25-2018, 10:04 PM
So ESPN is reporting that the Rockets have offered 4 first round picks to Minnesota for Jimmy Butler.

IMO if Minnesota doesn't take that then they don't deserve to ever win another game in the history of... well ever. With the league rules of no back to back years of 1sts allowed to be traded then that means the last 3 of those 1sts will be this Rockets team in cap hell with an outdated CP3 and Butler (most likely neither is in the league or at the very least ineffective). Those picks could be valuable as heck especially if the age limit for rookies change.

Also Jimmy doesn't wanna be there nor is he gonna re sign plus he's bad for team morale.

Acymetric
10-25-2018, 10:18 PM
So ESPN is reporting that the Rockets have offered 4 first round picks to Minnesota for Jimmy Butler.

IMO if Minnesota doesn't take that then they don't deserve to ever win another game in the history of... well ever. With the league rules of no back to back years of 1sts allowed to be traded then that means the last 3 of those 1sts will be this Rockets team in cap hell with an outdated CP3 and Butler (most likely neither is in the league or at the very least ineffective). Those picks could be valuable as heck especially if the age limit for rookies change.

Also Jimmy doesn't wanna be there nor is he gonna re sign plus he's bad for team morale.

That is insanity. Worse than Dallas trading a 1st for Amari Cooper. Sheesh.

BigZ
10-25-2018, 10:25 PM
Not really. Late first round picks in the nba aren’t that valuable. Sure once in a while you get a good player but for the most part you don’t get good players. Winning in the nba is different than other sports top tier talent is way more important than depth. You win with stars not role players

sagegrouse
10-26-2018, 06:51 AM
Not really. Late first round picks in the nba aren’t that valuable. Sure once in a while you get a good player but for the most part you don’t get good players. Winning in the nba is different than other sports top tier talent is way more important than depth. You win with stars not role players

It would seem that you could "solve the problem backward" by looking at draft position for the last ten All-Star teams.

Troublemaker
10-26-2018, 08:08 AM
Not really. Late first round picks in the nba aren’t that valuable. Sure once in a while you get a good player but for the most part you don’t get good players. Winning in the nba is different than other sports top tier talent is way more important than depth. You win with stars not role players

They might not be late first-round picks, though. As JNort pointed out, you can't trade consecutive first-rounders, so the 4 firsts are going to be in 2019, 2021, 2023, 2025. Is Houston still going to be drafting in the late first round in 2023 and 2025? It's a good deal for Minnesota unless the lottery protections are severe.

From Houston's perspective, they're in Harden's prime and Chris Paul probably has 1-2 seasons left as a very good player, so they're going to go for it. (One might wonder though why they allowed themselves to be outbid for Trevor Ariza in free agency.)

Forrest
10-26-2018, 08:27 AM
It would seem that you could "solve the problem backward" by looking at draft position for the last ten All-Star teams.
Way too much work, but I was curious enough to look at the last five All-NBA teams (1st, 2nd, and 3rd), and the results were mixed. 38 players were named at least once, and of these 12 were outside the lottery:

15 Giannis
15 Kawhi
15 Al Jefferson
24 Kyle Lowry
27 Rudy Gobert
28 Tony Parker
30 Jimmy Butler
35 Draymond
35 DeAndre Jordan
45 Goran Dragic
48 Marc Gasol
60 Isaiah Thomas

That's more than I expected, and from farther down the draft than I expected. Still, these players are taken from 12-14 drafts, so just a tiny fraction of even the non-lottery first rounders (maybe 4%?) made All-NBA in the five years I checked. Also, I'd only rate two of these twelve as real NBA superstars (Giannis and Kawhi). Other than them, all the multi-year All-NBA players are from the lottery, and almost all from the top 6 picks.

JNort
10-26-2018, 08:54 AM
Not really. Late first round picks in the nba aren’t that valuable. Sure once in a while you get a good player but for the most part you don’t get good players. Winning in the nba is different than other sports top tier talent is way more important than depth. You win with stars not role players
I don't see how they will be late picks. CP3 would be 40 and Harden along with Jimmy would he 36. I doubt Jimmy and CP3 are even on this team 2 or 3 years from now. Harden will start being washed up and they invested a lot of money into Capela who isn't even any good without an elite playmaker. Those last 2 picks should he lottery and the 2nd one could be anywhere.

Native
10-26-2018, 09:09 AM
Redick (one of the best college shooters of all time) has improved dramatically as a shooter since college - and he's still in a different league than Curry.

This is what's most amazing to me. You can take someone like Redick — unquestionably one of the greatest shooters in college basketball history — and dial up his work ethic to 150%. A friend of mine who met Redick at K Academy said JJ is obsessive over his training program and nutrition regime. He literally does everything right in terms of having raw talent and the dedication to improve.

And Curry is still on another planet. Unbelievable.

nmduke2001
10-26-2018, 09:32 AM
This is what's most amazing to me. You can take someone like Redick — unquestionably one of the greatest shooters in college basketball history — and dial up his work ethic to 150%. A friend of mine who met Redick at K Academy said JJ is obsessive over his training program and nutrition regime. He literally does everything right in terms of having raw talent and the dedication to improve.

And Curry is still on another planet. Unbelievable.

There are a lot of guys that can shoot when open. Curry's dribbling and passing make him really effective. Those skills enable him to get the sliver of space that he needs to shoot. I think that Steve Nash ushered in this style of play. I believe that is Nash was in his prime today, he'd be putting up similar numbers as Curry. Nash was as good as a ball handler, a better passer and arguably as good of a shooter.

ice-9
10-26-2018, 10:28 AM
I'm really having trouble with the Sixers. I love the faith they have put in JJ (and the money they have put in his pocket) but there are not many other likable guys on that team. Embiid is a major-league punk. I sorta hate that in Simmons and Fultz they have two of the most talented and yet least accomplished (in terms of winning) NCAA players of the past half decade. I don't really care much about Robert Covington or Dario Saric.

--Jason "If it was not for JJ, the Sixers would be waaaay up on the scale of teams I root against" Evans

I love Embiid!! ...because I took him for fantasy heh heh heh. He’s been playing like a monster.

JasonEvans
10-26-2018, 12:08 PM
There are a lot of guys that can shoot when open.

This is the thing about JJ and Curry that is really remarkable to me. They are almost never open because teams know giving them a clear look from 3 is a fatal mistake. So, they have to get their threes off the dribble or on the move. If you watch highlights of Curry and JJ you see guys hitting threes while moving sideways. That's just really, really, really hard to do. I suppose there are a few other guys in the league who can do this, but I think JJ and Steph are really in a league by themselves in this regard.

nmduke2001
10-26-2018, 12:58 PM
This is the thing about JJ and Curry that is really remarkable to me. They are almost never open because teams know giving them a clear look from 3 is a fatal mistake. So, they have to get their threes off the dribble or on the move. If you watch highlights of Curry and JJ you see guys hitting threes while moving sideways. That's just really, really, really hard to do. I suppose there are a few other guys in the league who can do this, but I think JJ and Steph are really in a league by themselves in this regard.

I agree. It's a great skill. I think Korver does a pretty good job of "drifting" while shooting too. For JJ and Korver, it's a product of coming off of screens really hard. It's almost impossible to be moving off of a screen and square up to the basket unless you stop. For JJ and Korver, their momentum takes them sideways because they don't stop to square up. Really impressive to see. JJ does it sometimes while handling the ball. JJ dribbles to the screener and shoots once he comes off of the screener's hip. Steph does this as well.

JasonEvans
10-26-2018, 03:03 PM
Who is the early clubhouse leader in the ROY race?

Trae Young leads all rookies in scoring (21.5) and assists (7.5). But, a lot of his numbers are a product of him shooting a lot.
Luka Doncic has done a little bit of everything-- scoring (19), rebounds (6.5), and assists (3.8). From what I have read, he is making his teammates better, which is a big deal.
Deandre Aytron is averaging a double-double (16.3 and 10.8). He's the beast everyone knew he would be. He's also dishing out 3.8 assists per game.

A step down from those three is MB3 who is averaging 14 points and 7 rebounds per game.

-Jason "I'd make Ayton the early leader... but it is really close at the top. As a Hawks fan, I'm just glad Young isn't a total bust" Evans

kAzE
10-26-2018, 03:34 PM
Who is the early clubhouse leader in the ROY race?

Trae Young leads all rookies in scoring (21.5) and assists (7.5). But, a lot of his numbers are a product of him shooting a lot.
Luka Doncic has done a little bit of everything-- scoring (19), rebounds (6.5), and assists (3.8). From what I have read, he is making his teammates better, which is a big deal.
Deandre Aytron is averaging a double-double (16.3 and 10.8). He's the beast everyone knew he would be. He's also dishing out 3.8 assists per game.

A step down from those three is MB3 who is averaging 14 points and 7 rebounds per game.

-Jason "I'd make Ayton the early leader... but it is really close at the top. As a Hawks fan, I'm just glad Young isn't a total bust" Evans

The problem with Trae Young is that he has to be better than Luka Doncic in order to justify the draft day trade. And luka looks like he’s eventually going to become a nightly triple double threat who can run point as a 6’7” shooting guard. Granted, Trae is an incredible shooter and passer, but at some point, there will be another Trae young. There will be plenty of sweet shooting 6 foot tall guards to come down the road, but they don’t make that many Luka Doncics.

Markelle Fultz has become a victim of this, since it’s pretty clear he’s not as good as Jayson Tatum.

Trae young certainly is not a bust, but I predict history won’t look kindly on that trade.

JasonEvans
10-26-2018, 03:37 PM
The problem with Trae Young is that he has to be better than Luka Doncic in order to justify the draft day trade. And luka looks like he’s eventually going to become a nightly triple double threat who can run point as a 6’7” shooting guard. Markelle Fultz has become a victim of this, since it’s pretty clear he’s not as good as Jayson Tatum.

Trae young certainly is not a bust, but I predict history won’t look kindly on that trade.

Actually, no. He does not have to be better. Trae + whatever the Hawks get in the 2019 draft (likely to be a pick in the 8-12 kinda range) need to be better than just Doncic.

kAzE
10-26-2018, 03:42 PM
Actually, no. He does not have to be better. Trae + whatever the Hawks get in the 2019 draft (likely to be a pick in the 8-12 kinda range) need to be better than just Doncic.

Maybe, but NBA history has taught us that a true superstar (and I'm comfortable with labeling Doncic as a future superstar, given what we've seen from him thus far as a 19 year old) is worth way more than all the draft picks in the world. I’ll give the hawks less than a 1% chance to win that trade. Usually in any trade, the side getting the best player is the winner, so the Hawks clearly believed that Trae is better than Luka, regardless of any other compensation.

I’ll take Luka all day over Trae and Simi Shittu, or whoever that pick becomes.

kshepinthehouse
10-26-2018, 04:00 PM
There are a lot of guys that can shoot when open. Curry's dribbling and passing make him really effective. Those skills enable him to get the sliver of space that he needs to shoot. I think that Steve Nash ushered in this style of play. I believe that is Nash was in his prime today, he'd be putting up similar numbers as Curry. Nash was as good as a ball handler, a better passer and arguably as good of a shooter.

I’m not sure many would argue that Nash is just as good of a shooter. But I can see your other comparisons.

Curry is the best shooter in NBA hisotry of course but what makes him especially unique is his shooting off the dribble. I can’t remember a player who even takes some of the shots he takes, much less makes them at a decent clip. He looks like he is simply tossing shots in the air, yet they happen to go in. There is no parallel to his shot selection in my opinion.

Also, and I can’t find the article right now, he is the best shooter in NBA a history as far as range is concerned. There was an article that highlighted all the three pointer he has made outside of 25 feet, even past half court. He is simply thee greatest shooter of all time in every respect.

subzero02
10-26-2018, 04:45 PM
This is what's most amazing to me. You can take someone like Redick — unquestionably one of the greatest shooters in college basketball history — and dial up his work ethic to 150%. A friend of mine who met Redick at K Academy said JJ is obsessive over his training program and nutrition regime. He literally does everything right in terms of having raw talent and the dedication to improve.

And Curry is still on another planet. Unbelievable.

I believe that after his sophomore year and a trip to the final four, coach K met with JJ and told him that he didn't deserve to be a national champion because he didn't work hard enough on and off the court. He said that in order to reach his potential, he needed to be in better shape. JJ lost weight over the summer and stopped making trips to bojangles.

I found the article...




Redick was crushed by the UConn loss and stumbled through a depressed period. He didn't get a whole lot of sympathy from the Duke coaches, who gave him this tough-love appraisal of his game: You're overweight, underdisciplined and uncommitted to fulfilling your potential.

"He had to make a decision," Duke assistant Chris Collins said. "We told him, 'You can be a good player for four years and be on good teams. Or do you want to be great?' It would require drastic changes in his lifestyle and a commitment he'd never given. That was a moment of truth for him as a basketball player."

...

Those relentlessly healthy meals mom used to make? Replaced by Bojangles' chicken and biscuits and 4 a.m. burrito runs to Cosmic Cantina.


http://www.espn.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=2339265

cato
10-26-2018, 04:51 PM
I believe that after his sophomore year and a trip to the final four, coach K met with JJ and told him that he didn't deserve to be a national champion because he didn't work hard enough on and off the court. He said that in order to reach his potential, he needed to be in better shape. JJ lost weight over the summer and stopped making trips to bojangles.

I found the article...



http://www.espn.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=2339265

I could have used a year end meeting with Coach K.

Frankly, reflecting on my choices at lunch today, I could still use a year end meeting with Coach K.

JNort
10-26-2018, 06:40 PM
Who is the early clubhouse leader in the ROY race?

Trae Young leads all rookies in scoring (21.5) and assists (7.5). But, a lot of his numbers are a product of him shooting a lot.
Luka Doncic has done a little bit of everything-- scoring (19), rebounds (6.5), and assists (3.8). From what I have read, he is making his teammates better, which is a big deal.
Deandre Aytron is averaging a double-double (16.3 and 10.8). He's the beast everyone knew he would be. He's also dishing out 3.8 assists per game.

A step down from those three is MB3 who is averaging 14 points and 7 rebounds per game.

-Jason "I'd make Ayton the early leader... but it is really close at the top. As a Hawks fan, I'm just glad Young isn't a total bust" Evans
I would say Doncic is the leader so far.

nmduke2001
10-27-2018, 01:24 AM
I’m not sure many would argue that Nash is just as good of a shooter. But I can see your other comparisons.

The 50-40-90 club is the exclusive club of NBA players that have shot 50% from the field, 40% from three and 90% from the foul line for an entire season. Seven players have achieved this level of shooting; Price,Miller, Bird, Nowitzki, Durant, Nash and Curry. Of those seven, only 2 have done it more than once. Bird did it twice and Nash 4 times. Nash missed a fifth season by a single missed free throw which left him at 89.9% for the year. Only two players have been 5 percentage points higher in any one category during their 50-40-90 season, both Nash and Curry shot 45% from three once. Nash is ridiculously underrated as a shooter.

BigZ
10-29-2018, 09:13 PM
Halftime

Warriors lead Bulls 92-50

phaedrus
10-29-2018, 09:42 PM
Klay is a one-man Hot Hand Fallacy.

phaedrus
10-29-2018, 09:52 PM
Who is the early clubhouse leader in the ROY race?

Trae Young leads all rookies in scoring (21.5) and assists (7.5). But, a lot of his numbers are a product of him shooting a lot.
Luka Doncic has done a little bit of everything-- scoring (19), rebounds (6.5), and assists (3.8). From what I have read, he is making his teammates better, which is a big deal.
Deandre Aytron is averaging a double-double (16.3 and 10.8). He's the beast everyone knew he would be. He's also dishing out 3.8 assists per game.

A step down from those three is MB3 who is averaging 14 points and 7 rebounds per game.

-Jason "I'd make Ayton the early leader... but it is really close at the top. As a Hawks fan, I'm just glad Young isn't a total bust" Evans

I don’t disagree that Bagley is a notch below the others (so far), but his per-36 numbers are almost right there with Ayton - 20.2 and 10.6.

dukelifer
10-29-2018, 09:52 PM
Klay is a one-man Hot Hand Fallacy.

Hot hand fallacy is a fallacy- watching Curry has made me a believer. This article also suggests there is more to the story.

https://www.thecut.com/2016/08/how-researchers-discovered-the-basketball-hot-hand.html

arnie
10-29-2018, 09:56 PM
Klay is a one-man Hot Hand Fallacy.

Set record for 3’s in a game tonite (14). Assume he’s finished as he broke Curry’s previous record.

dukelifer
10-29-2018, 10:28 PM
Set record for 3’s in a game tonite (14). Assume he’s finished as he broke Curry’s previous record.

I expect Curry to go for it in the next game. That team is ridiculous.

phaedrus
10-29-2018, 11:33 PM
Set record for 3’s in a game tonite (14). Assume he’s finished as he broke Curry’s previous record.

And he did it in barely half a game (26 minutes).

accfanfrom1970
10-30-2018, 12:19 AM
Nice to see Quinn make buckets in the blowout.

darthur
10-31-2018, 11:30 AM
The 50-40-90 club is the exclusive club of NBA players that have shot 50% from the field, 40% from three and 90% from the foul line for an entire season. Seven players have achieved this level of shooting; Price,Miller, Bird, Nowitzki, Durant, Nash and Curry. Of those seven, only 2 have done it more than once. Bird did it twice and Nash 4 times. Nash missed a fifth season by a single missed free throw which left him at 89.9% for the year. Only two players have been 5 percentage points higher in any one category during their 50-40-90 season, both Nash and Curry shot 45% from three once. Nash is ridiculously underrated as a shooter.

Steve Nash is the reason I got into the NBA. I love him and he is underrated as a shooter. He's still a very clear step below Steph IMO though, and 50-40-90 is misleading.

Curry has higher 2P% and higher 3P% than Nash, and blows him out of the water on TS%. The only reason Curry is not 50-40-90 all the time is he shoots waaay more 3s (including regularly leading the league in half-course heaves!) and that brings down overall FG%. And that's not even talking about degree-of-difficulty. If you watch old videos, you'll see people usually go under screens against Nash in pick-and-roll for example because the 3 was never Nash's main weapon. Nobody does that against Steph, either go over or even double-team.

I get why people don't like the Warriors but man, they're just so fun to watch if you like em.

WillJ
10-31-2018, 11:42 AM
Steve Nash is the reason I got into the NBA. I love him and he is underrated as a shooter. He's still a very clear step below Steph IMO though, and 50-40-90 is misleading.

Curry has higher 2P% and higher 3P% than Nash, and blows him out of the water on TS%. The only reason Curry is not 50-40-90 all the time is he shoots waaay more 3s (including regularly leading the league in half-course heaves!) and that brings down overall FG%. And that's not even talking about degree-of-difficulty. If you watch old videos, you'll see people usually go under screens against Nash in pick-and-roll for example because the 3 was never Nash's main weapon. Nobody does that against Steph, either go over or even double-team.

I get why people don't like the Warriors but man, they're just so fun to watch if you like em.

Much of the Nash/Curry difference is mindset. Nash really thought of himself as a pass-first/shoot-last player, whereas Curry thinks to score first. Clearly, Curry's strategy was better, and Nash, as he has admitted, did not have the imagination/attitude/cojones to do what Curry has done. It would be interesting, however, to somehow transplant Curry's attitude on to Nash's 2004 skill set......I really think Nash could have been almost as good as Curry is now if he had shot more.

Acymetric
10-31-2018, 11:58 AM
Steve Nash is the reason I got into the NBA. I love him and he is underrated as a shooter. He's still a very clear step below Steph IMO though, and 50-40-90 is misleading.

Curry has higher 2P% and higher 3P% than Nash, and blows him out of the water on TS%. The only reason Curry is not 50-40-90 all the time is he shoots waaay more 3s (including regularly leading the league in half-course heaves!) and that brings down overall FG%. And that's not even talking about degree-of-difficulty. If you watch old videos, you'll see people usually go under screens against Nash in pick-and-roll for example because the 3 was never Nash's main weapon. Nobody does that against Steph, either go over or even double-team.

I get why people don't like the Warriors but man, they're just so fun to watch if you like em.

Umm...where are you getting your numbers? 2P% is basically the same (Nash is just slightly higher). 3P% is slightly lower, overall FG% is higher. Curry gets the edge in eFG and TS percentage, but not in a way that blows Nash out of the water. Of course (and I know this is unrelated to shooting) Nash had a significant advantage in assist %.

Also worth pointing out that Nash's last 3-5 years were way past his prime and riddled with injuries which he tried to play through, bringing his career totals way down. For a more fair comparison, it would probably be appropriate at this point to compare Nash's career with the Suns (his "prime") with Curry's career so far (his "prime" more or less). Interestingly, their points per game are pretty similar. Also remember that, although it was improved, Nash did not benefit from some of the more recent defensive changes that opened things up for offenses.





Curry
Nash (career)
Nash (Suns)


2P%
51.4%
51.8%
53.5%


3P%
43.8%
42.8%
43.5%


FG%
47.8%
49.0%
50.4%


FT%
90.4%
90.4%
90.7%


eFG%
58.0%
55.6%
57.1%


TS%
62.3%
60.5%
61.7%


Assist %
32.2%
41.5%
46.4%

AGDukesky
10-31-2018, 12:07 PM
When assessing the best shooters, should shot selection be a criterion? Clearly, Curry seems to take and make the most difficult shots. I’d be curious what his % is on those long distance and/or blanket-defended shots. Maybe shooting % ultimately balances out good shooting with shot selection, I’m just wondering if Curry only took traditionally good shots, would his % make a more objective case for his shooting prowess...

Duke79UNLV77
10-31-2018, 12:20 PM
When assessing the best shooters, should shot selection be a criterion? Clearly, Curry seems to take and make the most difficult shots. I’d be curious what his % is on those long distance and/or blanket-defended shots. Maybe shooting % ultimately balances out good shooting with shot selection, I’m just wondering if Curry only took traditionally good shots, would his % make a more objective case for his shooting prowess...

Nash was a very underrated, fantastic shooter. He hit a great percentages on 3's, even though, as noted, that wasn't his focus. Curry is the best shooter ever, in my opinion. I think if Curry got to shoot only Draymond Green 3's (i.e., no one within 5 feet, plenty of time to read the paper and square up, right by the 3-point line), he'd make about 80%.

jimsumner
10-31-2018, 12:49 PM
Curry sometimes looks like he's just flinging the ball in the general direction of the basket. And it still goes in.

I think he met the Devil at the Crossroads on a moonless night and sold his soul.

Or perhaps he just practices a lot.

NSDukeFan
10-31-2018, 01:16 PM
Curry sometimes looks like he's just flinging the ball in the general direction of the basket. And it still goes in.

I think he met the Devil at the Crossroads on a moonless night and sold his soul.

Or perhaps he just practices a lot.

And has great genetics.

And practices a lot.

And practices effectively.

If we’re talkin’ ‘bout practice.

JasonEvans
10-31-2018, 01:24 PM
Jimmy Butler is going to sit out tonight's game as part of his strategy to demand a trade. He appears ready to do this every so often until the TWolves deal him. I don't know why the team is allowing this to fester. They are making themselves into desperation sellers and hurting their ability to get max value for one of the 10 best players in the league. I think they should take the Houston offer of 4 first rounders (provided none of the picks have any protection on them). I would not be at all surprised if 2 or 3 of those picks turn into lottery picks.

-Jason "how about this deal... Eric Gordon plus Houston's 2020, 2022, and 2024 first rounders" Evans

devildeac
10-31-2018, 02:38 PM
Curry sometimes looks like he's just flinging the ball in the general direction of the basket. And it still goes in.

I think he met the Devil at the Crossroads on a moonless night and sold his soul.

Or perhaps he just practices a lot.

Somehow, I don't think Jim is fiddling around with this post.

kAzE
10-31-2018, 02:58 PM
Umm...where are you getting your numbers? 2P% is basically the same (Nash is just slightly higher). 3P% is slightly lower, overall FG% is higher. Curry gets the edge in eFG and TS percentage, but not in a way that blows Nash out of the water. Of course (and I know this is unrelated to shooting) Nash had a significant advantage in assist %.

Also worth pointing out that Nash's last 3-5 years were way past his prime and riddled with injuries which he tried to play through, bringing his career totals way down. For a more fair comparison, it would probably be appropriate at this point to compare Nash's career with the Suns (his "prime") with Curry's career so far (his "prime" more or less). Interestingly, their points per game are pretty similar. Also remember that, although it was improved, Nash did not benefit from some of the more recent defensive changes that opened things up for offenses.





Curry
Nash (career)
Nash (Suns)


2P%
51.4%
51.8%
53.5%


3P%
43.8%
42.8%
43.5%


FG%
47.8%
49.0%
50.4%


FT%
90.4%
90.4%
90.7%


eFG%
58.0%
55.6%
57.1%


TS%
62.3%
60.5%
61.7%


Assist %
32.2%
41.5%
46.4%



It's not really fair to compare their stats, because Curry puts up way more shots (meaning his similar efficiency is more impressive) , and most of them are way more difficult shots. Steph takes shots that would be considered terrible shots if they were by any other player. Off the dribble from 35 feet is a pretty normal shot for him when he's really going. Steve never had the range that Steph has. Nobody does.

Steve was an all-time great shooter, but Steph is the greatest shooter of all time.

Acymetric
10-31-2018, 03:03 PM
It's not really fair to compare their stats, because Curry puts up way more shots, and most of them are way more difficult shots. Steph takes shots that would be considered terrible shots if they were by any other player. Off the dribble from 35 feet is a pretty normal shot for him when he's really going.

Steve was an all-time great shooter, but Steph is the greatest shooter of all time.

I agree with everything you're saying, my point was just that darthur was incorrect about the stats they mentioned. I probably wouldn't have said anything for most players, but I think Nash is criminally underrated so I thought it was appropriate to point out that the stats (which do not tell the whole story, clearly) are actually pretty darn close and in some cases favor Nash.

I'm also still a little bit mad at the NBA for handing the Spurs a finals appearance by suspending Amare/Diaw and get slightly triggered whenever anything Suns related is brought up (despite not actually being a Suns fan).

elvis14
10-31-2018, 03:04 PM
Nash was a very underrated, fantastic shooter. He hit a great percentages on 3's, even though, as noted, that wasn't his focus. Curry is the best shooter ever, in my opinion. I think if Curry got to shoot only Draymond Green 3's (i.e., no one within 5 feet, plenty of time to read the paper and square up, right by the 3-point line), he'd make about 80%.

I'm just curious, why would Nash be considered an underrated shooter. If you watch NBA, and you watched it when Nash was playing, you know he was a great shooter. Saying that Curry is better isn't a knock on Nash....Curry is considered the best ever at this point. Curry is my favorite current player (which is a hard label to get if you didn't go to Duke) but there was a time where it was Nash...two MVP awards don't just happen.

Acymetric
10-31-2018, 03:08 PM
I'm just curious, why would Nash be considered an underrated shooter. If you watch NBA, and you watched it when Nash was playing, you know he was a great shooter. Saying that Curry is better isn't a knock on Nash...Curry is considered the best ever at this point. Curry is my favorite current player (which is a hard label to get if you didn't go to Duke) but there was a time where it was Nash...two MVP awards don't just happen.

I think there is a tendency for people to think of Nash more for his distributing and forget how deadly he was from outside. He also (wrongly, especially when compared to modern players) sometimes gets pigeon-holed as a "system" guy from playing in D'Antoni's offense. Underrated is not the same as completely unappreciated (and it doesn't mean that literally every fan or media personality underrates him, just that some do and that he gets lost in discussions of past greats). The way his career ended also hurt him a little bit, I think.

elvis14
10-31-2018, 03:14 PM
I think there is a tendency for people to think of Nash more for his distributing and forget how deadly he was from outside. He also (wrongly, especially when compared to modern players) sometimes gets pigeon-holed as a "system" guy from playing in D'Antoni's offense. Underrated is not the same as completely unappreciated (and it doesn't mean that literally every fan or media personality underrates him, just that some do and that he gets lost in discussions of past greats). The way his career ended also hurt him a little bit, I think.

I was so bummed with the way his career ended. When he went to LA, it could have been so much fun to watch if his health hadn't failed him.

Indoor66
10-31-2018, 03:28 PM
I think he met the Devil at the Crossroads on a moonless night and sold his soul.

Was that down in Georgia?

Acymetric
10-31-2018, 03:32 PM
Was that down in Georgia?

Nah, that was that stupid fiddle contest. If you want the Robert Johnson experience you go to Mississippi.

JasonEvans
10-31-2018, 04:41 PM
Nah, that was that stupid fiddle contest. If you want the Robert Johnson experience you go to Mississippi.

The Devil Went Down to Georgia is just a silly song (though an enjoyable one to which I know every word). It isn't real.

But Robert Johnson absolutely, 100% went down to the crossroads and sold his soul to the devil. I'm certain of that.

MChambers
10-31-2018, 08:16 PM
Curry sometimes looks like he's just flinging the ball in the general direction of the basket. And it still goes in.

I think he met the Devil at the Crossroads on a moonless night and sold his soul.

Or perhaps he just practices a lot.

You think he’s really Robert Johnson?

darthur
10-31-2018, 10:35 PM
Umm...where are you getting your numbers? 2P% is basically the same (Nash is just slightly higher). 3P% is slightly lower, overall FG% is higher. Curry gets the edge in eFG and TS percentage, but not in a way that blows Nash out of the water. Of course (and I know this is unrelated to shooting) Nash had a significant advantage in assist %.

Also worth pointing out that Nash's last 3-5 years were way past his prime and riddled with injuries which he tried to play through, bringing his career totals way down. For a more fair comparison, it would probably be appropriate at this point to compare Nash's career with the Suns (his "prime") with Curry's career so far (his "prime" more or less). Interestingly, their points per game are pretty similar. Also remember that, although it was improved, Nash did not benefit from some of the more recent defensive changes that opened things up for offenses.

My bad, and thanks. I must have misread something on the 2pt%. I checked again and see same as your numbers.

FWIW I think it's really unfair to compare prime-Nash vs career-Curry.

- Outside his last season His last season he played 15 games. The year before he had a 49.7/43.8 split. It was the *early* years for Nash that drove his averages the msot.
- Curry has had all those same weaker early years including major injury problems of his own, and he still seems on the way up if anything. His numbers thus far this season are his best ever, and he is only now at the age where Nash got his first mvp.
- Nobody in their right mind would compare Nash and Curry as scorers, and if your numbers say they are similar, you are looking at the wrong numbers. :) Nash is still an incredible floor general and passer though of course. He's just a very different player. Both make their teams much better, but in extremely different ways.
- I still stick by my claim that Nash is well below Curry's level as a shooter, even if I screwed up the numbers. I feel the argument between him and Klay/Ray Allen for second is more reasonable.

BigZ
10-31-2018, 10:36 PM
Derrick Rose ....

elvis14
11-01-2018, 10:21 AM
Derrick Rose ...

Wow. Raise your hand if you saw that coming....

rsvman
11-01-2018, 10:30 AM
Wow. Raise your hand if you saw that coming...

"Derrick Rose will probably go for fifty tonight" said nobody. Certainly not in the past few years.

luvdahops
11-01-2018, 10:34 AM
"Derrick Rose will probably go for fifty tonight" said nobody. Certainly not in the past few years.

As a Bulls fan, last night's T-Wolves game was pretty damn ironic. "Rose goes off for 50 to key an improbable win while prima donna Butler sits out" is a virtual 180 storyline relative to the Bulls c 2015-2016.

JasonEvans
11-01-2018, 10:54 AM
As a Bulls fan, last night's T-Wolves game was pretty damn ironic. "Rose goes off for 50 to key an improbable win while prima donna Butler sits out" is a virtual 180 storyline relative to the Bulls c 2015-2016.

Is Butler really seen as the prima donna here? I see it more as "super talented and hard working player desperately wants to get away from lousy, apathetic teammates and dysfunctional organization that are not going to be winners."

That said, sitting out games is sorta lame.

JNort
11-01-2018, 10:57 AM
Is Butler really seen as the prima donna here? I see it more as "super talented and hard working player desperately wants to get away from lousy, apathetic teammates and dysfunctional organization that are not going to be winners."

That said, sitting out games is sorta lame.
Anytime an uber rich athlete pouts and complains the general consensus is they are a prima donna.

JasonEvans
11-01-2018, 10:58 AM
Anytime an uber rich athlete pouts and complains the general consensus is they are a prima donna.

Kyrie?

luvdahops
11-01-2018, 11:01 AM
Is Butler really seen as the prima donna here? I see it more as "super talented and hard working player desperately wants to get away from lousy, apathetic teammates and dysfunctional organization that are not going to be winners."

That said, sitting out games is sorta lame.

Prima donna may be a little harsh, but the general consensus among Chicago fans and media is that Butler did not handle his transition to stardom well. He remains talented and hard working, but to say he has struggled with leadership, as both a Bull and Timberwolf, would be massive understatement.

Duke79UNLV77
11-01-2018, 12:05 PM
Prima donna may be a little harsh, but the general consensus among Chicago fans and media is that Butler did not handle his transition to stardom well. He remains talented and hard working, but to say he has struggled with leadership, as both a Bull and Timberwolf, would be massive understatement.

If Rose is ready to be a key player again, that could make the Wolves more open to the idea of life after Butler. I don't know that the transition would help Tyus, given Thibs' MO of playing starters huge minutes and having Teague and Rose both able to run the point.

luvdahops
11-01-2018, 01:02 PM
If Rose is ready to be a key player again, that could make the Wolves more open to the idea of life after Butler. I don't know that the transition would help Tyus, given Thibs' MO of playing starters huge minutes and having Teague and Rose both able to run the point.

Rose has been playing mostly off the ball since joining Minnesota late last year. He was pressed into PG duty last night with both Teague and Tyus unavailable. I think Tyus is pretty firmly established as the backup PG at this point, with both Thibs and his teammates. Rose and Josh Okogie essentially back up Wiggins and Butler in the regular rotation.

brevity
11-01-2018, 01:33 PM
Derrick Rose ...


Wow. Raise your hand if you saw that coming...

I sure didn't.

8762

dukelifer
11-02-2018, 09:58 AM
The Kings are looking solid. Never thought anyone would utter those words. Bagley with a very efficient night 7-10 for 18 pts in 24 min. They are young and are playing fast and loose with Fox at the point.

AGDukesky
11-02-2018, 10:14 AM
Yeah, you could tell Fox had the potential to be great - especially if his jumpshot became solid. He is so athletic and quick with great size for PG. Bagley is just doing Bagley things...

JasonEvans
11-02-2018, 12:35 PM
Yeah, you could tell Fox had the potential to be great - especially if his jumpshot became solid. He is so athletic and quick with great size for PG. Bagley is just doing Bagley things...

I was at the game (hmmmm, why would the host of the Podcast attend this game?) and the Kings were really impressive. The Hawks are godawful (thankfully, need another good draft pick or two) but I was still impressed with the pace the Kings played at and their ball movement. They had a sick number of assists that led to wide open shots.

brlftz
11-02-2018, 01:17 PM
I was at the game (hmmmm, why would the host of the Podcast attend this game?) ...

SOMEONE scored a Miles Plumlee interview!!!

elvis14
11-02-2018, 01:38 PM
I'm happy the Kings are playing decent ball. I watched a pre-season game they had vs Jazz in which they got blown out something like 82-50. It was ugly and I was worried that Marvin and Harry were in for a really bad year. Hope they continue to succeed.

JasonEvans
11-02-2018, 01:54 PM
SOMEONE scored a Miles Plumlee interview!!!

You will have to wait util next week's pod to find out... but I think you know the answer ;)

ChillinDuke
11-02-2018, 03:07 PM
I'm happy the Kings are playing decent ball. I watched a pre-season game they had vs Jazz in which they got blown out something like 82-50. It was ugly and I was worried that Marvin and Harry were in for a really bad year. Hope they continue to succeed.

Wait, I missed it. What was the score of the blow out?

- Chillin

elvis14
11-02-2018, 03:10 PM
Wait, I missed it. What was the score of the blow out?

- Chillin

LOL, I said something 82-50. Of course I was just pulling random numbers out of my.....

BigZ
11-03-2018, 08:52 PM
I’ve always sided w MJ on the Lebron vs MJ debate but the best argument for Lebron maybe that without MJ the Bulls were one bad call away from making the Finals, the Cavs without Lebron are the worst team in the league

JNort
11-03-2018, 09:09 PM
I’ve always sided w MJ on the Lebron vs MJ debate but the best argument for Lebron maybe that without MJ the Bulls were one bad call away from making the Finals, the Cavs without Lebron are the worst team in the league
Yup and this is why I've been on the Lebron side.

MJ = greatest scorer and 2 guard of all time

Lebron = greatest all around basketball player of all time

bullettoothtony
11-03-2018, 09:50 PM
I'm still in the Jordan Camp, with all due respect.

But LeBron is on my Mt. Rushmore, along with MJ, Magic and Kareem.

dukelifer
11-03-2018, 10:05 PM
Cavs could be historically bad this year

JNort
11-03-2018, 10:14 PM
I'm still in the Jordan Camp, with all due respect.

But LeBron is on my Mt. Rushmore, along with MJ, Magic and Kareem.
Respectable but I'm curious. What would flip you aside from rings?

bullettoothtony
11-03-2018, 11:13 PM
Respectable but I'm curious. What would flip you aside from rings?


I'm honestly not sure what it would take to tell you the truth. It's both a good and fair question. But it is possible... he still has a lot of time left in his career, and I like to think I'm open-minded enough to make that switch down the road, possibly.

I've read and heard a lot about this over the last few years--innumerable interviews and debates with analysts and former players, and they include a number of folks I have tremendous respect for, from Hubie Brown to Magic Johnson, and so many others (i'm not sure i could even ballpark the number of folks). That so many of them continue to say Jordan remains the GOAT (I'd say 80-90 percent of the folks I've heard/read) is a significant factor in why I continue to say the same thing.

That said, when i hear more recent comments from folks like Stan van Gundy (although there might be some bias there... conceivably) and Daryl Morey in favor of LeBron... no way I can discount their opinions. And they've somewhat helped me get over some antipathy that had built up for the inexcusably pathetic effort from LeBron in Game 4 of the Finals in June (after which Barkley, G. Hill and C. Webber justifiably ripped him for quitting on NBA-TV right after the game). I know his hand was hurt and few knew that until after the Finals, but that didn't seem to affect his effort in game 2 or game 3. But I digress.

I'll always listen to anyone who wants to make the case for LeBron. I welcome the opportunity to consider different perspectives... might help me learn things I didn't know, reconsider things I know, knew at one time but had forgotten, thought I knew, etc.

I've heard Max Kellerman on First Take, on multiple occasions, reference that the "advanced analytics" favor Jordan. But when Morey weighed in in favor of LeBron earlier this year, I believe he said something about the analytics favoring LeBron. I heard neither individual state what specific analytics they were referring to but I'd like to see them.

My apologies for the novel.

kshepinthehouse
11-21-2018, 06:18 AM
I’m curious to hear everyone’s thoughts on the Celtics. Would anyone be willing to go as far to say that they were better last year without Hayward and Irving?

dukelifer
11-21-2018, 07:50 AM
I’m curious to hear everyone’s thoughts on the Celtics. Would anyone be willing to go as far to say that they were better last year without Hayward and Irving?

They had a great playoff run- but hard to say if that team would be killing the regular season. Kyrie has been fine of late. Hayward is showing a ton of rust or limitations.

Troublemaker
11-21-2018, 09:55 AM
I’m curious to hear everyone’s thoughts on the Celtics. Would anyone be willing to go as far to say that they were better last year without Hayward and Irving?

Nah, it just takes time to combine all these talents. Stevens will figure it out. Early season struggles entirely predictable.

kshepinthehouse
11-21-2018, 11:08 AM
Nah, it just takes time to combine all these talents. Stevens will figure it out. Early season struggles entirely predictable.

Much better defensively last year without Kyrie.

Troublemaker
11-21-2018, 11:19 AM
Much better defensively last year without Kyrie.

That's not true at all.

Boston was a great defensive team last season WITH Kyrie, a great defensive team this season WITH Kyrie (#1 in the league (https://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1) *), and yes also a great defensive team without Kyrie (when he was injured). Almost all of Boston's problems have been on the offensive end this season.

* you couldn't be more wrong, in other words :-)

kshepinthehouse
11-21-2018, 11:41 AM
That's not true at all.

Boston was a great defensive team last season WITH Kyrie, a great defensive team this season WITH Kyrie (#1 in the league (https://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1) *), and yes also a great defensive team without Kyrie (when he was injured). Almost all of Boston's problems have been on the offensive end this season.

* you couldn't be more wrong, in other words :-)

Thanks for the stats. I’m pretty embarrassed now. The eye test would tell me otherwise but I can’t dispute facts.

I read an interesting article on ESPN about how they are settling for too few jumpers and they are one of the worst teams in the league at getting to the rim and getting easy buckets. Jayson Tatum has been known to pull up and take inefficient mid range jumpers instead of going all the way to the rim.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25283082/why-boston-celtics-offense-broken-nba

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-22-2018, 07:00 AM
Kyrie's postgame comments about Thanksgiving made for a really amusing thread on reddit. I swear he is either a performance artist, or whatever the NBA's answer to Kanye West is.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/9zajg7/_/

BigZ
11-24-2018, 11:49 PM
Not a good day to be Dwight Howard

moonpie23
11-24-2018, 11:56 PM
re: jordan v lebron.......all the jedi mind-tricking of all the stats will not change the fact that:

If they played one-on-one, in their prime, with nba rules and refs, jordan fouls out every single game......

boom...

BD80
11-25-2018, 10:12 AM
re: jordan v lebron....all the jedi mind-tricking of all the stats will not change the fact that:

If they played one-on-one, in their prime, with nba rules and refs, jordan fouls out every single game...

boom...

MJ would have to commit 600 fouls to get called for 6 by NBA refs ...

brlftz
11-25-2018, 01:22 PM
Not a good day to be Dwight Howard

If you don’t know what this is about, go to r/nba on reddit. It’s wiiiild.

brlftz
11-25-2018, 01:25 PM
Here’s a link to the Dwight Howard discussion on reddit. The person making the accusation is VERY sketchy, apparently has a history of of falsifying evidence.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/a051lg/elij%C3%A8_i_was_afraid_to_speak_but_today_my_life _was/?st=JOX7PFS6&sh=e41b70cf

Link re the prior false allegations:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/a08yzo/reminder_the_women_is_exposing_dwight_howard_did/?st=JOX7TKO2&sh=396ba44e

JasonEvans
11-27-2018, 08:16 AM
I get that Kawhi is a special player and adding him to the Raptors (minus DD) is an upgrade, but if you had the Raptors with the best record in the NBA (by more than 2 games) a quarter of the way into the season they you are a pretty special prognosticator. And how likely was it that Serge Ibaka would have his best ever season as a pro on the cusp of his 30th birthday after several disappointing seasons? There's no way Serge can continue to shoot this well, right?

Meanwhile, the Cavs won 2 in a row last week. They should fire their coach for allowing that to happen. The race for the worst record in basketball is back on!

JasonEvans
11-27-2018, 08:44 AM
Jalen Rose, who never met a hot take he did not like, says the Sixers should trade Markel Fultz for a 2029 2nd round pick. He says Markel needs to get out of Philly and that there is a real risk Markel is out of the league completely when his rookie deal is done.

Whew... and they could have had Jayson Tatum plus this year's pick from the Kings... wow!

BD80
11-27-2018, 12:49 PM
I get that Kawhi is a special player and adding him to the Raptors (minus DD) is an upgrade, but if you had the Raptors with the best record in the NBA (by more than 2 games) a quarter of the way into the season they you are a pretty special prognosticator. And how likely was it that Serge Ibaka would have his best ever season as a pro on the cusp of his 30th birthday after several disappointing seasons? There's no way Serge can continue to shoot this well, right?

...

The Raptors gave up their best player, brought in a new head coach, and they are 17-4 (one loss was OT). Not too shabby.

JNort
11-27-2018, 07:42 PM
I get that Kawhi is a special player and adding him to the Raptors (minus DD) is an upgrade, but if you had the Raptors with the best record in the NBA (by more than 2 games) a quarter of the way into the season they you are a pretty special prognosticator. And how likely was it that Serge Ibaka would have his best ever season as a pro on the cusp of his 30th birthday after several disappointing seasons? There's no way Serge can continue to shoot this well, right?

Meanwhile, the Cavs won 2 in a row last week. They should fire their coach for allowing that to happen. The race for the worst record in basketball is back on!
Well they were easily top 3 in the west and should he much improved. Not unlikely they would be on top this early in

JasonEvans
11-28-2018, 10:03 AM
Jalen Rose, who never met a hot take he did not like, says the Sixers should trade Markel Fultz for a 2029 2nd round pick. He says Markel needs to get out of Philly and that there is a real risk Markel is out of the league completely when his rookie deal is done.

Reports are that a bunch of teams -- probably lots of ones that are rebuilding and do not care about losing games now as they try to develop players -- are talking to the Sixers about trading for Fultz. One of the most realistic deals seems to be the Cavs getting him for Kyle Korver and a very protected first round draft pick (probably at least lottery protected for a couple years). The Fultz ($8.3mil) and Korver ($7.5mil) contracts work in a trade. The Sixers would prefer a fully expiring contract and Korver's is partially ($3.4 mil) guaranteed for next season, but that may not be a huge obstacle. The Sixers know they need some shooting punch off the bench with JJ back to being part of the starting unit. Korver is still a stud shooter (46.3% from 3 this season) and with better teammates drawing the D (like Embiid and Butler) he could be a significant pick-up for the Sixers.

-Jason "this deal makes a ton of sense... they need to make this happen" Evans

P.S. - I'd love to see my Hawks get in on trying to rebuild Fultz's shot, but the Hawks don't really have an asset to send back that makes sense

BD80
11-28-2018, 06:29 PM
Reports are that a bunch of teams -- probably lots of ones that are rebuilding and do not care about losing games now as they try to develop players -- are talking to the Sixers about trading for Fultz. One of the most realistic deals seems to be the Cavs getting him for Kyle Korver and a very protected first round draft pick (probably at least lottery protected for a couple years). The Fultz ($8.3mil) and Korver ($7.5mil) contracts work in a trade. The Sixers would prefer a fully expiring contract and Korver's is partially ($3.4 mil) guaranteed for next season, but that may not be a huge obstacle. The Sixers know they need some shooting punch off the bench with JJ back to being part of the starting unit. Korver is still a stud shooter (46.3% from 3 this season) and with better teammates drawing the D (like Embiid and Butler) he could be a significant pick-up for the Sixers.

-Jason "this deal makes a ton of sense... they need to make this happen" Evans

P.S. - I'd love to see my Hawks get in on trying to rebuild Fultz's shot, but the Hawks don't really have an asset to send back that makes sense

The only team that makes sense is the Spurs, I hear they have a guy that works on shooting woes ...

JasonEvans
11-29-2018, 11:05 AM
One of the most realistic deals seems to be the Cavs getting him for Kyle Korver and a very protected first round draft pick (probably at least lottery protected for a couple years). The Fultz ($8.3mil) and Korver ($7.5mil) contracts work in a trade.

Oh well. Korver got traded to Utah for Alec Burks and a pair of 2nd round picks. That move could help Grayson Allen as Burks was playing ahead of Allen in the wing rotation. Korver is more of a SF than a SG so perhaps it will open up some time for Grayson.

luvdahops
11-29-2018, 11:16 AM
Oh well. Korver got traded to Utah for Alec Burks and a pair of 2nd round picks. That move could help Grayson Allen as Burks was playing ahead of Allen in the wing rotation. Korver is more of a SF than a SG so perhaps it will open up some time for Grayson.

Burks was also a longer term competitor to Grayson for PT. Korver, who will be 38 in March, is not.

Truth&Justise
01-14-2019, 11:18 AM
James Harden tied two NBA records last night in the Rockets' loss to the Magic.

He scored 38 points, tying Kobe Bryant's record of 16 straight games of scoring 30-points or more.

But he also shot 1-17 from three, tying the NBA record of 16 missed three pointers in a game.

I'd say any player can have a bad night and shoot 1-8 or even 1-10 from three. Only a true star could shoot 1-17.

AGDukesky
01-14-2019, 11:30 AM
Harden’s usage is mind boggling - 32 shots, 16 FTs and 12 assists. He must handle the ball like 90% of the time Houston is on offense...

JasonEvans
01-22-2019, 11:15 AM
Seth Curry is human...

That is all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_goU7I_DVM

NSDukeFan
01-22-2019, 11:35 AM
Seth Curry is human...

That is all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_goU7I_DVM

Perhaps he gave Klay his superpowers for the night, as Klay broke a record by hitting his first 10 threes.

Truth&Justise
01-25-2019, 08:59 AM
Late in Wednesday night's game between the Jazz and Nuggets, the Nuggets were in-bounding the ball from the sideline. Donovan Mitchell started egging on the crowd behind the in-bounding player, and with help from the raucous crowd the Jazz forced a five-second violation. It was a neat moment of the crowd really getting into it at an NBA game, and here's a clip of the play and Mitchell talking about it after the game (https://www.instagram.com/p/BtCg9OSHIdN/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=9yvhdi0hdata).


When asked about it after the game, Mitchell explained: "I said 'Just yell in his ears.' Like, that's what I kept saying,'Just yell at him.' Believe it or not, it distracts you. So I told them, like, kinda act like the Duke crowd and just, like yell and scream. And if you watch, they were really after it."

Mitchell only played at Duke once, in a 72-65 loss to the Blue Devils in 2016. I guess it was enough to make an impression on him!

Billy Dat
01-28-2019, 07:33 AM
Early AM WOJ BOMB - AD says he won't sign an extension and wants to be traded!!!!!

lotusland
01-28-2019, 07:49 AM
Early AM WOJ BOMB - AD says he won't sign an extension and wants to be traded!!!!!

So Jahlil may find more PT right where he his.

brevity
01-28-2019, 10:57 AM
Early AM WOJ BOMB - AD says he won't sign an extension and wants to be traded!!!!!

Good for him.

You may notice my location. I first visited New Orleans in 2012, and happened to be at a sports bar -- Manning's, I think -- when the draft lottery was taking place. The Pelicans (then Hornets) won the #1 pick and #10 pick, which they later used to select Anthony Davis and Austin Rivers.

I've been in the area for most of Davis' pro career, and I feel like he's excelled despite his team. I'm not invested in the NBA enough to nitpick the organizational problems with the Pelicans franchise, but I'm invested in the NFL even less, and it's unfortunate to see an owner and city fail to prioritize someone who should be its best and most popular pro athlete.

It boggled my mind that the Pelicans -- who once re-signed Eric Gordon as a restricted free agent mainly for the purpose of providing him free health care -- had no interest in holding onto DeMarcus Cousins. Maybe he would have left anyway, but the lack of effort to retain him helped push him out the door.

And it may have done the same for Davis, who must have known for years now that he will not come close to winning a title in New Orleans. And even if he did, would anyone notice?

flyingdutchdevil
01-28-2019, 11:10 AM
Early AM WOJ BOMB - AD says he won't sign an extension and wants to be traded!!!!!

Brown, Hayward, 5 first round picks? If you want Tatum, we'll take Hayward back, but we'll only give you 2 picks. But please, please take Brown.

JasonEvans
01-28-2019, 11:20 AM
Brown, Hayward, 5 first round picks? If you want Tatum, we'll take Hayward back, but we'll only give you 2 picks. But please, please take Brown.

As was pointed out in the Dukies in the NBA thread (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?42366-Dukies-in-the-NBA-2018-19&p=1121304#post1121304), the Celtics cannot acquire Davis unless they deal Kyrie or they wait until after Kyrie signs as a free agent this summer.


The only way the Celtics can trade for AD right now is to include Kyrie in the deal. That is due to the “Rose Rule”.

From the Boston Globe/Boston.com:

“NBA teams cannot trade for more than one player who has signed an extension under the “Rose Rule” — a limitation that is only applicable when the players are still on their “Rose Rule” extensions. The Celtics acquired Irving via trade in August 2017, so they cannot deal for Davis — or any other player that has signed such an extension — until Irving leaves or agrees to a new deal. Irving will become an unrestricted free agent at the conclusion of this season and has expressed his intention to re-sign with the Celtics. The earliest he can do so is July 1, 2019.”

Truth&Justise
01-28-2019, 11:33 AM
As was pointed out in the Dukies in the NBA thread (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?42366-Dukies-in-the-NBA-2018-19&p=1121304#post1121304), the Celtics cannot acquire Davis unless they deal Kyrie or they wait until after Kyrie signs as a free agent this summer.

For this reason, many have speculated that Davis announced his trade demand now as a way of signalling a preference for getting traded to the Lakers, who are widely seen as Boston's main competitor in a trade.

And this infuriates me -- why do the Lakers keep getting all the breaks! It reeks of privilege. Folks complain about Golden State's current dominance, but they started from the bottom, made shrewd decisions in drafting, trades, and cap management, and with a little luck they built their dynasty. Over the past decade, teams like the Spurs, Mavericks and Celtics are model franchises on how to remain competitive in the short term while building assets for the long term. Heck, even Miami had a clear plan in freeing cap space to sign the Wade-Bosh-LeBron trio and followed that plan with discipline.

But the Lakers? If they complete this deal it will be another chance for them to stumble backwards into a superstar without really trying. They have made some decent draft picks (Ball, ingram, Kuzma), but they don't fit together particularly well and don't evince a clear team-building plan. They've handed out terrible free agent contracts, both before LeBron (Mozgov, Deng), and after (Stephenson, McGee, Beasley, Rondo).

But they got LeBron, pretty much only because "they're the Lakers." And now that they have LeBron, they might get Anthony Davis. Why? Because "they're the Lakers." It's infuriating.

Indoor66
01-28-2019, 11:56 AM
For this reason, many have speculated that Davis announced his trade demand now as a way of signalling a preference for getting traded to the Lakers, who are widely seen as Boston's main competitor in a trade.

And this infuriates me -- why do the Lakers keep getting all the breaks! It reeks of privilege. Folks complain about Golden State's current dominance, but they started from the bottom, made shrewd decisions in drafting, trades, and cap management, and with a little luck they built their dynasty. Over the past decade, teams like the Spurs, Mavericks and Celtics are model franchises on how to remain competitive in the short term while building assets for the long term. Heck, even Miami had a clear plan in freeing cap space to sign the Wade-Bosh-LeBron trio and followed that plan with discipline.

But the Lakers? If they complete this deal it will be another chance for them to stumble backwards into a superstar without really trying. They have made some decent draft picks (Ball, ingram, Kuzma), but they don't fit together particularly well and don't evince a clear team-building plan. They've handed out terrible free agent contracts, both before LeBron (Mozgov, Deng), and after (Stephenson, McGee, Beasley, Rondo).

But they got LeBron, pretty much only because "they're the Lakers." And now that they have LeBron, they might get Anthony Davis. Why? Because "they're the Lakers." It's infuriating.

Well, they are the Lakers....

JNort
01-28-2019, 11:56 AM
For this reason, many have speculated that Davis announced his trade demand now as a way of signalling a preference for getting traded to the Lakers, who are widely seen as Boston's main competitor in a trade.

And this infuriates me -- why do the Lakers keep getting all the breaks! It reeks of privilege. Folks complain about Golden State's current dominance, but they started from the bottom, made shrewd decisions in drafting, trades, and cap management, and with a little luck they built their dynasty. Over the past decade, teams like the Spurs, Mavericks and Celtics are model franchises on how to remain competitive in the short term while building assets for the long term. Heck, even Miami had a clear plan in freeing cap space to sign the Wade-Bosh-LeBron trio and followed that plan with discipline.

But the Lakers? If they complete this deal it will be another chance for them to stumble backwards into a superstar without really trying. They have made some decent draft picks (Ball, ingram, Kuzma), but they don't fit together particularly well and don't evince a clear team-building plan. They've handed out terrible free agent contracts, both before LeBron (Mozgov, Deng), and after (Stephenson, McGee, Beasley, Rondo).

But they got LeBron, pretty much only because "they're the Lakers." And now that they have LeBron, they might get Anthony Davis. Why? Because "they're the Lakers." It's infuriating.

I hope he goes to the Lakers.... I want them to be competitive and contending but also because I want someone to dethrone the Warriors. Doesn't hurt that they have LeBron either who I want to win.

Duke79UNLV77
01-28-2019, 12:14 PM
As was pointed out in the Dukies in the NBA thread (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?42366-Dukies-in-the-NBA-2018-19&p=1121304#post1121304), the Celtics cannot acquire Davis unless they deal Kyrie or they wait until after Kyrie signs as a free agent this summer.

Can the Celts get around the rule by signing Kyrie to a new deal early, like now or soon enough thereafter to trade for the Brown in the season?

sagegrouse
01-28-2019, 12:14 PM
But they got LeBron, pretty much only because "they're the Lakers." And now that they have LeBron, they might get Anthony Davis. Why? Because "they're the Lakers." It's infuriating.

If you are a super-rich basketball player and have your choice of cities, I think it is understandable that the Lakers have a big advantage. At least, that's what Wilt and Kareem told me and why Magic told me he stayed in LA. Clippers? OK, but I think the Lakers, because of their history, win the tie-breaker.

curtis325
01-28-2019, 12:30 PM
For this reason, many have speculated that Davis announced his trade demand now as a way of signalling a preference for getting traded to the Lakers, who are widely seen as Boston's main competitor in a trade.

And this infuriates me -- why do the Lakers keep getting all the breaks! It reeks of privilege. Folks complain about Golden State's current dominance, but they started from the bottom, made shrewd decisions in drafting, trades, and cap management, and with a little luck they built their dynasty. Over the past decade, teams like the Spurs, Mavericks and Celtics are model franchises on how to remain competitive in the short term while building assets for the long term. Heck, even Miami had a clear plan in freeing cap space to sign the Wade-Bosh-LeBron trio and followed that plan with discipline.

But the Lakers? If they complete this deal it will be another chance for them to stumble backwards into a superstar without really trying. They have made some decent draft picks (Ball, ingram, Kuzma), but they don't fit together particularly well and don't evince a clear team-building plan. They've handed out terrible free agent contracts, both before LeBron (Mozgov, Deng), and after (Stephenson, McGee, Beasley, Rondo).

But they got LeBron, pretty much only because "they're the Lakers." And now that they have LeBron, they might get Anthony Davis. Why? Because "they're the Lakers." It's infuriating.


I'll allow it.

JasonEvans
01-28-2019, 12:55 PM
For this reason, many have speculated that Davis announced his trade demand now as a way of signalling a preference for getting traded to the Lakers, who are widely seen as Boston's main competitor in a trade.

What are the Lakers offering in trade? Would you deal Davis for Ball and Ingram or Kuzma and Ingram? Would the Lakers trade all three of those guys for Davis? Would Nawlins make that deal? It is not like Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram are winning very much without Lebron around anyway.

Do the Lakers have any sweet draft assets to add to a deal? If I was Nawlins I would hold out for Tatum another quality youngster or two (Smart, Brown, Rozier) and a couple nice picks. Plus, then I am dealing Davis to the East, not facilitation the creation of another superteam in the West.

-Jason "is New Orleans the most easterly team in the West?" Evans

CDu
01-28-2019, 01:03 PM
What are the Lakers offering in trade? Would you deal Davis for Ball and Ingram or Kuzma and Ingram? Would the Lakers trade all three of those guys for Davis? Would Nawlins make that deal? It is not like Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram are winning very much without Lebron around anyway.

Do the Lakers have any sweet draft assets to add to a deal? If I was Nawlins I would hold out for Tatum another quality youngster or two (Smart, Brown, Rozier) and a couple nice picks. Plus, then I am dealing Davis to the East, not facilitation the creation of another superteam in the West.

-Jason "is New Orleans the most easterly team in the West?" Evans

The problem is that those “nice picks” Boston has are looking less valuable now. Not likely to be high lottery picks anymore. Now, I don’t know if the Lakers would offer enough to get it done. But we will see.

JasonEvans
01-28-2019, 01:21 PM
Can the Celts get around the rule by signing Kyrie to a new deal early, like now or soon enough thereafter to trade for the Brown in the season?

I don't think so. Any new deal would take effect in the off-season. I'm fairly sure you can't re-do a contract mid-season and have it affect the current season.

Truth&Justise
01-28-2019, 01:33 PM
The problem is that those “nice picks” Boston has are looking less valuable now. Not likely to be high lottery picks anymore. Now, I don’t know if the Lakers would offer enough to get it done. But we will see.

Well, they do have Memphis's pick,* which is looking better and better.

*To be specific: Boston get's Memphis's pick if it's outside the top 8 this year. If not, it gets the pick from Memphis in 2020 if it's outside the top 6. And if it still hasn't conveyed, it's unprotected in 2021. Given how bad Memphis has looked, and how things will likely get worse with the departure of Gasol and Conley, that could be a top-3 pick in 2021.

Boston also will most likely get two mid-first round picks this year, from the Clippers and from Sacramento.

Steven43
01-28-2019, 01:56 PM
If I was Nawlins I would hold out for Tatum another quality youngster or two (Smart, Brown, Rozier) and a couple nice picks.
-Jason "is New Orleans the most easterly team in the West?" Evans
If I’m the Celtics there is no way in bloody hell I would trade Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown (or Terry Rozier) plus a couple of “nice picks” — I’m assuming you were talking about first-round picks — for Anthony Davis.

First of all, what has Anthony Davis ever proven? He’s been in the league six full seasons (this is his seventh) and has made the playoffs twice — getting swept in the first round in 2015 and losing 4-1 in the second round in 2018. And he’s not a particularly versatile big man at shooting from outside — like Kevin Durant, for example, who can make baskets from anywhere on the court.

The way the game has changed in the last few years he’s not nearly as valuable as he would have been in the past. As a Celtics fan I say “Pass”. Let the Lakers give up valuable assets for him. I welcome that.

Troublemaker
01-28-2019, 02:03 PM
For this reason, many have speculated that Davis announced his trade demand now as a way of signalling a preference for getting traded to the Lakers, who are widely seen as Boston's main competitor in a trade.

And this infuriates me -- why do the Lakers keep getting all the breaks! It reeks of privilege. Folks complain about Golden State's current dominance, but they started from the bottom, made shrewd decisions in drafting, trades, and cap management, and with a little luck they built their dynasty. Over the past decade, teams like the Spurs, Mavericks and Celtics are model franchises on how to remain competitive in the short term while building assets for the long term. Heck, even Miami had a clear plan in freeing cap space to sign the Wade-Bosh-LeBron trio and followed that plan with discipline.

But the Lakers? If they complete this deal it will be another chance for them to stumble backwards into a superstar without really trying. They have made some decent draft picks (Ball, ingram, Kuzma), but they don't fit together particularly well and don't evince a clear team-building plan. They've handed out terrible free agent contracts, both before LeBron (Mozgov, Deng), and after (Stephenson, McGee, Beasley, Rondo).

But they got LeBron, pretty much only because "they're the Lakers." And now that they have LeBron, they might get Anthony Davis. Why? Because "they're the Lakers." It's infuriating.

Don't sweat it. I don't see why the Pelicans wouldn't wait for a Boston offer, and I don't see how the Lakers could outbid Boston.

Troublemaker
01-28-2019, 02:09 PM
If I’m the Celtics there is no way in bloody hell I would trade Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown (or Terry Rozier) plus a couple of “nice picks” — I’m assuming you were talking about first-round picks — for Anthony Davis.

First of all, what has Anthony Davis ever proven? He’s been in the league six full seasons (this is his seventh) and has made the playoffs twice — getting swept in the first round in 2015 and losing 4-1 in the second round in 2018. And he’s not a particularly versatile big man at shooting from outside — like Kevin Durant, for example, who can make baskets from anywhere on the court.

The way the game has changed in the last few years he’s not nearly as valuable as he would have been in the past. As a Celtics fan I say “Pass”. Let the Lakers give up valuable assets for him. I welcome that.

I mean, Davis isn't exactly a traditional big man. He's incredibly mobile and can do everything on offense except for hit the 3 at at high percentage at high volume. (But given his career 80% FT shooting, he might eventually even develop that). That, combined with how he's always a contender for defensive player of the year, and you have a top 5 player.

How is Boston going to get a top 5 player otherwise? You're definitely among the very small minority of Celtics fans that don't want him. (That doesn't make you necessarily wrong, of course).

JasonEvans
01-29-2019, 11:42 AM
Despite Davis' demands, I think New Orleans must hold onto him until the offseason. Not only does the off-season put Boston in the mix but there is a chance New Orleans is able to deal Davis for whoever gets the #1 pick. I mean, despite all of us thinking Zion will be a transcendent player, there is a chance he isn't. We already know Davis is one of the top 5 players in the league.

It is often said that the team that got the best player won the trade. If I am New Orleans, I want to deal Davis for Zion because that is the only small chance I have of getting the best player in the trade.

-Jason "if you had the #1 pick, would you deal it for Davis? The fact that Zion would be under control at a low salary may make him even more attractive than an established superstar like Davis" Evans

CDu
01-29-2019, 11:46 AM
Despite Davis' demands, I think New Orleans must hold onto him until the offseason. Not only does the off-season put Boston in the mix but there is a chance New Orleans is able to deal Davis for whoever gets the #1 pick. I mean, despite all of us thinking Zion will be a transcendent player, there is a chance he isn't. We already know Davis is one of the top 5 players in the league.

It is often said that the team that got the best player won the trade. If I am New Orleans, I want to deal Davis for Zion because that is the only small chance I have of getting the best player in the trade.

-Jason "if you had the #1 pick, would you deal it for Davis? The fact that Zion would be under control at a low salary may make him even more attractive than an established superstar like Davis" Evans

I would not unless I felt REALLY certain that Davis would re-sign. And I don't know if there is a team likely to get the #1 pick that would feel comfortable in their chances of re-signing Davis. Trading the #1 pick for a year of Davis would likely be organization sabotage, as you'd lose a key rebuilding piece, then tank your draft pick for next season by having a top-5 player, then lose him again.

Maybe the Bulls (Davis' hometown) would be dumb enough to do it if they landed #1. But they already have two frontcourt players in Markkanen and Carter, so they'd rather have the pick and deal from their young players than add another big and devalue their young players. And again, it would be a HUGE risk because you'd have to be certain that you'd win enough to appease Davis within one year.

Steven43
01-29-2019, 11:55 AM
I mean, Davis isn't exactly a traditional big man. He's incredibly mobile and can do everything on offense except for hit the 3 at at high percentage at high volume. (But given his career 80% FT shooting, he might eventually even develop that). That, combined with how he's always a contender for defensive player of the year, and you have a top 5 player.

How is Boston going to get a top 5 player otherwise? You're definitely among the very small minority of Celtics fans that don't want him. (That doesn't make you necessarily wrong, of course).

I think Kyrie Irving at his peak is a top 5 player in the NBA. So there’s that. And I’m very surprised that — according to what I inferred from your post — most Celtics fans would give up Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, and two first-round picks for Anthony Davis. Are you really sure about that?

Steven43
01-29-2019, 11:58 AM
Despite Davis' demands, I think New Orleans must hold onto him until the offseason. Not only does the off-season put Boston in the mix but there is a chance New Orleans is able to deal Davis for whoever gets the #1 pick. I mean, despite all of us thinking Zion will be a transcendent player, there is a chance he isn't. We already know Davis is one of the top 5 players in the league.

It is often said that the team that got the best player won the trade. If I am New Orleans, I want to deal Davis for Zion because that is the only small chance I have of getting the best player in the trade.

-Jason "if you had the #1 pick, would you deal it for Davis? The fact that Zion would be under control at a low salary may make him even more attractive than an established superstar like Davis" Evans
Very interesting take — Davis for Zion. But I would think New Orleans could get the #1 pick AND a good starter for Davis. If I’m New Orleans I would hold out for that.

CDu
01-29-2019, 12:02 PM
I think Kyrie Irving at his peak is a top 5 player in the NBA. So there’s that. And I’m very surprised that — according to what I inferred from your post — most Celtics fans would give up Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, and two first-round picks for Anthony Davis. Are you really sure about that?

If I were a Celtics fan, I'd be VERY willing to give up at least one of Tatum/Brown and two first-round picks for Davis. And I'd likely be willing to give up even more. The first round picks are looking less likely to provide a star (mid-firsts this year plus whatever the Memphis pick becomes), and Brown and Tatum have taken steps back this year. You would be getting the unquestioned best player in that trade, and it isn't close. And you pair your top-10 player at PG with a top-5 player at PF/C. That's a fantastic opportunity.

Troublemaker
01-29-2019, 12:08 PM
I think Kyrie Irving at his peak is a top 5 player in the NBA. So there’s that. And I’m very surprised that — according to what I inferred from your post — most Celtics fans would give up Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, and two first-round picks for Anthony Davis. Are you really sure about that?

You can probably keep Brown and yes, Celtics fans would do Tatum plus first-round picks.

Steven43
01-29-2019, 12:14 PM
You can probably keep Brown and yes, Celtics fans would do Tatum plus first-round picks.

What do you mean “probably keep Brown”? I thought you had said Tatum AND Brown plus two first-round picks for Davis. You think New Orleans would do the trade for just Tatum and the two picks? If so, I find that extremely hard to believe.

Troublemaker
01-29-2019, 12:27 PM
What do you mean “probably keep Brown”? I thought you had said Tatum AND Brown plus two first-round picks for Davis. You think New Orleans would do the trade for just Tatum and the two picks? If so, I find that extremely hard to believe.

Nope, that was someone else's suggested trade, not mine. I was commenting on you not seemingly want to trade young assets for Davis.

With that said, I'm not sure Jaylen Brown would be a dealbreaker, but it'll be hard for another team to top Tatum + first-rounders. That's why you can probably keep Brown. At a certain point, Boston would just be bidding against itself.

Steven43
01-29-2019, 12:30 PM
Nope, that was someone else's suggested trade, not mine. I was commenting on you not seemingly want to trade young assets for Davis.

With that said, I'm not sure Jaylen Brown would be a dealbreaker, but it'll be hard for another team to top Tatum + first-rounders. That's why you can probably keep Brown. At a certain point, Boston would just be bidding against itself.

Well, if I’m Boston I would consider doing it for Tatum plus the two picks. But not if they want Brown, too.

Troublemaker
01-29-2019, 12:42 PM
Well, if I’m Boston I would consider doing it for Tatum plus the two picks. But not if they want Brown, too.

Yeah, Tatum is the key. I've seen some Boston fans that don't want to include Tatum in the trade. I mean, as a Duke fan, I would love nothing more than to have Davis on the same team as Kyrie and Jayson. It just doesn't seem likely. CDu's been all over it; the Boston first rounders aren't worth that much anymore, and Jaylen Brown can't be the centerpiece of a trade.

DangerDevil
01-29-2019, 01:15 PM
Despite Davis' demands, I think New Orleans must hold onto him until the offseason. Not only does the off-season put Boston in the mix but there is a chance New Orleans is able to deal Davis for whoever gets the #1 pick. I mean, despite all of us thinking Zion will be a transcendent player, there is a chance he isn't. We already know Davis is one of the top 5 players in the league.

It is often said that the team that got the best player won the trade. If I am New Orleans, I want to deal Davis for Zion because that is the only small chance I have of getting the best player in the trade.

-Jason "if you had the #1 pick, would you deal it for Davis? The fact that Zion would be under control at a low salary may make him even more attractive than an established superstar like Davis" Evans

Zion probably brings more hype/box office appeal than AD to most struggling franchises right now as well.

kAzE
01-29-2019, 05:36 PM
Despite Davis' demands, I think New Orleans must hold onto him until the offseason. Not only does the off-season put Boston in the mix but there is a chance New Orleans is able to deal Davis for whoever gets the #1 pick. I mean, despite all of us thinking Zion will be a transcendent player, there is a chance he isn't. We already know Davis is one of the top 5 players in the league.

It is often said that the team that got the best player won the trade. If I am New Orleans, I want to deal Davis for Zion because that is the only small chance I have of getting the best player in the trade.

-Jason "if you had the #1 pick, would you deal it for Davis? The fact that Zion would be under control at a low salary may make him even more attractive than an established superstar like Davis" Evans

If the Boston Celtics land the number 1 pick (actually possible right now, given that Sacramento is currently in the lottery), absolutely they would deal Zion for Davis.

Like CDu said, it obviously hinges on the likelihood that Davis re-signs, which for Boston, is highly likely given Davis' relationship with Kyrie, and the Celtics' prove track record of success.

Secondly, for a team like Boston, whose best player is the around the same age as Anthony Davis, the timeline fits. Zion could be a top 5 player by age 25, but that's a long ways off. No matter how good he is, he'll be a rookie next year. When you have Kyrie, you have to go for it now, when he's at his absolute peak. Kyrie's probably got 3-5 more years at this level before he begins to decline.

But if you're a rebuilding team with no championship aspirations, it's a no brainer to keep Zion.

CDu
01-29-2019, 05:49 PM
If the Boston Celtics land the number 1 pick (actually possible right now, given that Sacramento is currently in the lottery), absolutely they would deal Zion for Davis.

Like CDu said, it obviously hinges on the likelihood that Davis re-signs, which for Boston, is highly likely given Davis' relationship with Kyrie, and the Celtics' prove track record of success.

Secondly, for a team like Boston, whose best player is the around the same age as Anthony Davis, the timeline fits. Zion could be a top 5 player by age 25, but that's a long ways off. No matter how good he is, he'll be a rookie next year. When you have Kyrie, you have to go for it now, when he's at his absolute peak. Kyrie's probably got 3-5 more years at this level before he begins to decline.

But if you're a rebuilding team with no championship aspirations, it's a no brainer to keep Zion.

Yeah, this seems to realistically be a two-team race between Boston and the Lakers. The Lakers have more packageable young assets in Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma, whereas the Celtics have slightly fewer in-house assets but more draft capital. If they get lucky with the lottery with the Sacto pick, it puts them in cruise control. If the Sacto pick winds up in the 10-14 range? Then it might be advantage LA.

But I can’t imagine a rebuilding team giving up 5 years of cost-controlled Zion (plus potentially more assets) for what would likely be one meaningless year with AD.

Troublemaker
01-29-2019, 07:37 PM
If the Boston Celtics land the number 1 pick (actually possible right now, given that Sacramento is currently in the lottery), absolutely they would deal Zion for Davis.

If Sacramento wins the lottery, the pick goes to Philly; when Philly traded the pick to the Celtics, they made it top-1 protected (https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/tags/2019-nba-draft).

kshepinthehouse
01-29-2019, 10:11 PM
If the Boston Celtics land the number 1 pick (actually possible right now, given that Sacramento is currently in the lottery), absolutely they would deal Zion for Davis.

Like CDu said, it obviously hinges on the likelihood that Davis re-signs, which for Boston, is highly likely given Davis' relationship with Kyrie, and the Celtics' prove track record of success.

Secondly, for a team like Boston, whose best player is the around the same age as Anthony Davis, the timeline fits. Zion could be a top 5 player by age 25, but that's a long ways off. No matter how good he is, he'll be a rookie next year. When you have Kyrie, you have to go for it now, when he's at his absolute peak. Kyrie's probably got 3-5 more years at this level before he begins to decline.

But if you're a rebuilding team with no championship aspirations, it's a no brainer to keep Zion.

Don’t forget Kyrie is a free agent after this season.

JasonEvans
01-30-2019, 11:15 AM
I did some research for a conversation I was having with some email friends and just wanted to share it here. We were talking about the rise of Okafor and someone commented that he still doesn't play much D and someone else said that makes him no different from Harden and then we spun off into a conversation about Harden's insane stats... and that led me to this.

Historical usage rates -- Here is the list of players with a usage rate over 36 (I went back to 1997 and could not find data before then):


2018-19 Harden 39.3
2016-17 Westbrook 40.0 (averaged a triple double)
2014-15 Westbrook 36.6
2005-06 Kobe 37.7
2001-02 Iverson 36.5

Since the calendar turned, Harden is at an unheard-of 43.4% usage rate in January. There is a decent chance he challenges Westbrook's otherworldly 40.0.

Worth noting, usage rate does not include assists. It is just FGs, FTs, and turnovers... an indication of how often the team uses you to end a possession (not counting offensive rebounds).

Acymetric
01-30-2019, 11:18 AM
I did some research for a conversation I was having with some email friends and just wanted to share it here. We were talking about the rise of Okafor and someone commented that he still doesn't play much D and someone else said that makes him no different from Harden and then we spun off into a conversation about Harden's insane stats... and that led me to this.

Historical usage rates -- Here is the list of players with a usage rate over 36 (I went back to 1997 and could not find data before then):


2018-19 Harden 39.3
2016-17 Westbrook 40.0 (averaged a triple double)
2014-15 Westbrook 36.6
2005-06 Kobe 37.7
2001-02 Iverson 36.5

Since the calendar turned, Harden is at an unheard-of 43.4% usage rate in January. There is a decent chance he challenges Westbrook's otherworldly 40.0.

Worth noting, usage rate does not include assists. It is just FGs, FTs, and turnovers... an indication of how often the team uses you to end a possession (not counting offensive rebounds).

The biggest difference between those four players is that the other three were way more fun to watch ;)

Thanks for the stats, that is pretty crazy!

Steven43
01-30-2019, 11:25 AM
I did some research for a conversation I was having with some email friends and just wanted to share it here. We were talking about the rise of Okafor and someone commented that he still doesn't play much D and someone else said that makes him no different from Harden and then we spun off into a conversation about Harden's insane stats... and that led me to this.

Historical usage rates -- Here is the list of players with a usage rate over 36 (I went back to 1997 and could not find data before then):


2018-19 Harden 39.3
2016-17 Westbrook 40.0 (averaged a triple double)
2014-15 Westbrook 36.6
2005-06 Kobe 37.7
2001-02 Iverson 36.5

Since the calendar turned, Harden is at an unheard-of 43.4% usage rate in January. There is a decent chance he challenges Westbrook's otherworldly 40.0.

Worth noting, usage rate does not include assists. It is just FGs, FTs, and turnovers... an indication of how often the team uses you to end a possession (not counting offensive rebounds).
I think James Harden is a very talented but fundamentally flawed, selfish basketball player who does not make his teammates better, is not a leader, and is killing the sport with his nauseating habit of purposely driving full speed into defenders with the only objective being to draw a foul from hapless officials who don’t have a clue how to assess such calls.

mkirsh
01-30-2019, 09:43 PM
Harden also has an amazing streak of something like 85 straight unassisted fgs - he creates iso offense like no one else in the nba. I think he gets away with frequent travels on his step back and push offs on drives, but there is no doubt he has immense amount of skill and has become unguardable. Even with the favorable whistles (or lack of them) I really enjoy watching him play.

The ringer had a funny argument about who would win a hypothetical game of one on one between MJ and Harden. They decided there would be no winner as a fight would break out mid game, but that Jordan would likely win the fight.

Steven43
01-31-2019, 12:45 AM
Harden also has an amazing streak of something like 85 straight unassisted fgs - he creates iso offense like no one else in the nba. I think he gets away with frequent travels on his step back and push offs on drives, but there is no doubt he has immense amount of skill and has become unguardable. Even with the favorable whistles (or lack of them) I really enjoy watching him play.

The ringer had a funny argument about who would win a hypothetical game of one on one between MJ and Harden. They decided there would be no winner as a fight would break out mid game, but that Jordan would likely win the fight.
Not trying to give you, personally, a hard time. I agree that James Harden is very very talented. BUT...I wish MJ would find the fountain of youth and pound Harden into complete submission and early retirement. In my opinion Bill Simmons and Chuck Klosterman could not be more wrong in lauding Harden. He’s a weasel, a trickster, a snake oil salesman, a team killer, and probably worse. Other than that he’s a great guy.

And in a game of one-on-one (which really isn’t basketball and is basically meaningless) Jordan’s incredible defense would break Harden’s will, crush his spirit, and cause him to quit like the quitter he is. Jordan would DOMINATE Harden.

Troublemaker
01-31-2019, 11:57 AM
And this infuriates me -- why do the Lakers keep getting all the breaks!


Don't sweat it. I don't see why the Pelicans wouldn't wait for a Boston offer, and I don't see how the Lakers could outbid Boston.

Told ya not to sweat it. Story on ESPN co-written by Woj / Lowe - the Pels GM isn't even returning calls by the Lakers GM (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25892346/new-orleans-pelicans-gm-dell-demps-returned-call-los-angeles-lakers-gm-anthony-davis) (among other juicy bits).

JasonEvans
01-31-2019, 12:08 PM
Told ya not to sweat it. Story on ESPN co-written by Woj / Lowe - the Pels GM isn't even returning calls by the Lakers GM (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25892346/new-orleans-pelicans-gm-dell-demps-returned-call-los-angeles-lakers-gm-anthony-davis) (among other juicy bits).

The juiciest bit is probably this:


The stance of Davis and his camp toward Boston is linked to their view of Kyrie Irving's future, sources said. Davis and his camp no longer believe that Irving is a sure bet to re-sign with the Celtics this summer

Troublemaker
01-31-2019, 12:18 PM
The juiciest bit is probably this:

Ah, but in the same article, the Celtics are confident that if they trade for Davis, Kyrie will re-sign with Boston (and eventually Davis will re-sign as well). I think that's right, as the two of them are friends, are young (as opposed to Lebron), and will be playing for a historic franchise and a great coach. It is an interesting "get both or get neither" scenario, though. For Knicks fans, there's such a scenario for them outlined in the article as well.

JasonEvans
01-31-2019, 03:56 PM
LA Times says the Lakers have offered Ingram, Kuzma, Ball, and Ivan Zubac as well as a first round pick (not likely to be a good pick) to the Pelicans for Davis. I'm not sure how they have made this offer as the Pelicans are supposedly refusing to talk to the Lakers. There would have to be some other players thrown in to make the cap work, like Lance Stephenson or Kentavious Caldwell-Pope. The Pelicans would have to send back guys like Wes Johnson, Tim Frazier, and/or Ian Clark as well.

The Pelicans are going to wait until the offseason, but Ingram, Kuzma, and Ball is an intriguing trade offer.

JasonEvans
01-31-2019, 04:00 PM
HUGE TRADE!!

The Knicks are dealing Porzingas to the Mavs for Dennis Smith Jr, DeAndre Jordan, and Wesley Matthews. The Mavs also get Tim Hardaway Jr and his insane contract as well as Courtney Lee.

I need some time to digest this one... at first blush, I'm confused why the Knicks did this. Does this make NY more attractive to Durant?

kAzE
01-31-2019, 04:05 PM
HUGE TRADE!!

Porzingas to the MAvs

Full details of the trade:

Mavs get: Kristaps Porzingis, Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, Trey Burke (expiring)
Knicks get: Dennis Smith Jr., Wesley Matthews, DeAndre Jordan, future 1st round pick

If Porzingis gets back to full health, that Doncic/Porzingis pick and roll is gonna be an unstoppable force.

JetpackJesus
01-31-2019, 04:13 PM
LA Times says the Lakers have offered Ingram, Kuzma, Ball, and Ivan Zubac as well as a first round pick (not likely to be a good pick) to the Pelicans for Davis. I'm not sure how they have made this offer as the Pelicans are supposedly refusing to talk to the Lakers. There would have to be some other players thrown in to make the cap work, like Lance Stephenson or Kentavious Caldwell-Pope. The Pelicans would have to send back guys like Wes Johnson, Tim Frazier, and/or Ian Clark as well.

The Pelicans are going to wait until the offseason, but Ingram, Kuzma, and Ball is an intriguing trade offer.

And to field an NBA team.

Troublemaker
01-31-2019, 04:21 PM
HUGE TRADE!!

The Knicks are dealing Porzingas to the Mavs for Dennis Smith Jr, DeAndre Jordan, and Wesley Matthews. The Mavs also get Tim Hardaway Jr and his insane contract as well as Courtney Lee.

I need some time to digest this one... at first blush, I'm confused why the Knicks did this. Does this make NY more attractive to Durant?

Woj reported that a meeting between the Knicks and Porzingis went sour (http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-free-agency-rumors-kristaps-porzingis-concerned-state-of-knicks-contract-info-restricted/17uw1wulkf63p1masl9d45lyuo), but I doubt that would've precipitated a trade were it not for (a) concerns about whether Porzingis will be the same post-injury because of his unique size (https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/barbara-barker/barker-kristaps-porzingis-knicks-1.21246986) and (b) Porzingis is due to get paid big money soon (https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/10/15/17978566/kristaps-porzingis-rookie-scale-extension-knicks-nba-free-agency-2019-kevin-durant) and (c) the trade opening up two max slots by dumping Hardaway and Lee.

Now, with that said, I like the trade for Dallas. They assume the risk on Porzingis but it's a risk worth taking.

JasonEvans
01-31-2019, 04:31 PM
the trade opening up two max slots by dumping Hardaway and Lee.

From what I am seeing, the Knicks will have close to $75 mil in cap space available... so I guess the idea is to get Durant and someone else with that money. You would pair the two max players with Knox, Ntilikina, Smith, and whatever else you can dig up. Plus, the Knicks will have a high lottery pick. It will be interesting to see if they can lure 2 guys with max deals. My bet is that NY is hoping to lure Kyrie and Durant.

I agree that Dallas did well in this trade, but it may turn out that this deal makes the Knicks a heck of a lot better too.

-Jason "I am shocked... shocked I say... that the 4 year, $70 mil deal they gave Tim Hardaway Jr in 2017 was a bad contract... shocked!" Evans

BandAlum83
01-31-2019, 04:34 PM
From what I am seeing, the Knicks will have close to $75 mil in cap space available... so I guess the idea is to get Durant and someone else with that money. You would pair the two max players with Knox, Ntilikina, Smith, and whatever else you can dig up. Plus, the Knicks will have a high lottery pick. It will be interesting to see if they can lure 2 guys with max deals. My bet is that NY is hoping to lure Kyrie and Durant.

I agree that Dallas did well in this trade, but it may turn out that this deal makes the Knicks a heck of a lot better too.

-Jason "I am shocked... shocked I say... that the 4 year, $70 mil deal they gave Tim Hardaway Jr in 2017 was a bad contract... shocked!" Evans

And where will Zion fit in the mix?

Billy Dat
01-31-2019, 04:39 PM
From what I am seeing, the Knicks will have close to $75 mil in cap space available... so I guess the idea is to get Durant and someone else with that money. You would pair the two max players with Knox, Ntilikina, Smith, and whatever else you can dig up. Plus, the Knicks will have a high lottery pick. It will be interesting to see if they can lure 2 guys with max deals. My bet is that NY is hoping to lure Kyrie and Durant.

I agree that Dallas did well in this trade, but it may turn out that this deal makes the Knicks a heck of a lot better too.

-Jason "I am shocked... shocked I say... that the 4 year, $70 mil deal they gave Tim Hardaway Jr in 2017 was a bad contract... shocked!" Evans

As a Knicks guy, I get the possibilities, but it's so sad that our guy KP is headed out of town. It's a big roll of the dice to hope that two max guys decide to team up in NY, but I guess that's where we are.

I am happy for KP, I hope he and Luka make beautiful music together for years to come.

thedukelamere
01-31-2019, 05:02 PM
And where will Zion fit in the mix?

He'll be playing the villain to the Knicks when he's MJing them out of the playoffs after he's drafted by the Bulls ;)

elvis14
01-31-2019, 05:56 PM
He'll be playing the villain to the Knicks when he's MJing them out of the playoffs after he's drafted by the Bulls ;)


Hmmmm, odd that you'd put "Bulls" and "playoffs" in the same sentence :-)

Obligatory: Playoffs!? Don't talk to me about playoffs!

Troublemaker
01-31-2019, 06:31 PM
Kevin Pelton of ESPN Insider ($) actually gives the Knicks a better grade than the Mavs for this trade (http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/25894332/porzingis-trade-grades-do-mavs-knicks-win-deal).

While I ultimately disagree with the level-headed Pelton here, I think he's closer to the truth than the typical internet reaction that the Knicks made an F trade and the Mavs an A+ trade. Dallas is assuming a decent amount of risk here -- both that Kristaps will stay healthy and return to his previous level and that he will re-sign with Dallas.

Troublemaker
01-31-2019, 06:34 PM
Kevin Pelton of ESPN Insider ($) actually gives the Knicks a better grade than the Mavs for this trade (http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/25894332/porzingis-trade-grades-do-mavs-knicks-win-deal).

While I ultimately disagree with the level-headed Pelton here, I think he's closer to the truth than the typical internet reaction that the Knicks made an F trade and the Mavs an A+ trade. Dallas is assuming a decent amount of risk here -- both that Kristaps will stay healthy and return to his previous level and that he will re-sign with Dallas.

With that said, hard to not love this:


Joel Embiid‏Verified account @JoelEmbiid (https://twitter.com/JoelEmbiid) 2h2 hours ago (https://twitter.com/JoelEmbiid/status/1091081240009105408)
Lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lolololololololololololololololololo

cato
01-31-2019, 06:44 PM
With that said, hard to not love this:


Joel Embiid‏Verified account @JoelEmbiid (https://twitter.com/JoelEmbiid) 2h2 hours ago (https://twitter.com/JoelEmbiid/status/1091081240009105408)
Lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lolololololololololololololololololo


Trolls so hard

Steven43
01-31-2019, 06:45 PM
With that said, hard to not love this:


Joel Embiid‏Verified account @JoelEmbiid (https://twitter.com/JoelEmbiid) 2h2 hours ago (https://twitter.com/JoelEmbiid/status/1091081240009105408)
Lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lolololololololololololololololololo


What was Embid trying to say?

ChillinDuke
01-31-2019, 06:48 PM
As a Knicks guy, I get the possibilities, but it's so sad that our guy KP is headed out of town. It's a big roll of the dice to hope that two max guys decide to team up in NY, but I guess that's where we are.

I am happy for KP, I hope he and Luka make beautiful music together for years to come.

I'm in the same headspace as you, Mr. Dat.

It's a big roll of the dice. And unfortunately, I'm conditioned at this point to expect that the Knicks will get one max player this summer along with the not-Zion pick in the draft and live in relative obscurity in the middle of the East for the next 5 years.

I want so badly to love the Knicks and love the NBA like the old days. It's just so difficult.

- Chillin

timmy c
01-31-2019, 06:55 PM
What was Embid trying to say?

You're supposed to read between the lines......
"Oooooooooooo"


🙄

luvdahops
01-31-2019, 07:40 PM
He'll be playing the villain to the Knicks when he's MJing them out of the playoffs after he's drafted by the Bulls ;)

From your lips to God's ears.....

COYS
01-31-2019, 07:47 PM
Kevin Pelton of ESPN Insider ($) actually gives the Knicks a better grade than the Mavs for this trade (http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/25894332/porzingis-trade-grades-do-mavs-knicks-win-deal).

While I ultimately disagree with the level-headed Pelton here, I think he's closer to the truth than the typical internet reaction that the Knicks made an F trade and the Mavs an A+ trade. Dallas is assuming a decent amount of risk here -- both that Kristaps will stay healthy and return to his previous level and that he will re-sign with Dallas.

The Mavs will also be capped-out for two years so they’ll have to keep Kristaps healthy AND confident that the team will be able to make moves when space opens up. The lack of draft picks could also hurt, potentially.

Now that the details have been released, I actually think the trade is pretty close to a fair deal, especially for a Knick’s team that had very little leverage given Kristap’s wink-wink-nudge-nudge trade demand. I still like it slightly more for Dallas, but that’s probably because I hate saying anything good about a Dolan-owned team

Steven43
01-31-2019, 08:08 PM
You're supposed to read between the lines...
"Oooooooooooo"


🙄
He’s clearly mocking the trade, but I don’t know which team he is ridiculing.

ncexnyc
01-31-2019, 08:55 PM
Great trade for the Knicks! DSJ was the PG they wanted, but Phil took Ntilikina instead. They just landed two additional 1st rounders to go with their own and unloaded Tim Jr and his outrageous contract.

So now they have nearly as many trade chips as the Celtics, plus they've got close to $75M in cap space to play with. They also have to solid veterans in Matthews and Jordan who they can flip to a contender.

JasonEvans
01-31-2019, 10:01 PM
So now they have nearly as many trade chips as the Celtics

Wait... what? Other than their own pick, they don't have any trade chip as valuable as even the Sacto pick this year, let alone that Memphis pick that could be 1005 unprotected in a couple years as Memphis stinks for the foreseeable future. And who on the Knicks is even as valuable as Rozier (who is less valuable than Brown or Smart or Tatum)?

That said, I do like the flexibility this trade has given to the Knicks and I do expect them to deal Jordan and Matthews for picks or something as the last thing the Knicks want at this point is to win any games. Cap space is a valuable thing.

Still, there is a reason folks called Porzingas a unicorn. I have no idea how he will recover from the injury, but if he does this trade is a huge win for the Mavs.

ncexnyc
01-31-2019, 10:23 PM
Wait... what? Other than their own pick, they don't have any trade chip as valuable as even the Sacto pick this year, let alone that Memphis pick that could be 1005 unprotected in a couple years as Memphis stinks for the foreseeable future. And who on the Knicks is even as valuable as Rozier (who is less valuable than Brown or Smart or Tatum)?

That said, I do like the flexibility this trade has given to the Knicks and I do expect them to deal Jordan and Matthews for picks or something as the last thing the Knicks want at this point is to win any games. Cap space is a valuable thing.

Still, there is a reason folks called Porzingas a unicorn. I have no idea how he will recover from the injury, but if he does this trade is a huge win for the Mavs.

It seems we always have this debate on DBR when it comes to trades. And often times you can't judge a trade until all the pieces fall into place. They say you can't win the lottery unless you buy a ticket, well today the Knicks just got enough money to buy two lottery tickets. Considering there are four superstar free agents available after the season, the Knicks are now in the game.

Get back to me after the draft and the free agency period and then tell me who won this trade.

Troublemaker
02-01-2019, 08:15 AM
And unfortunately, I'm conditioned at this point to expect that the Knicks will get one max player this summer along with the not-Zion pick in the draft and live in relative obscurity in the middle of the East for the next 5 years.

Say hello to Kemba Walker! (A really good player, but probably the Knicks front office is dreaming bigger at this point.)


They say you can't win the lottery unless you buy a ticket, well today the Knicks just got enough money to buy two lottery tickets. Considering there are four superstar free agents available after the season, the Knicks are now in the game.

Lottery ticket is right.

You're not going to like my predictions:

Durant and Klay - re-signs with GSW to go for a 4-peat. Note: while I haven't fact-checked it myself, I've heard from people I trust that no star player has ever left a team that just won the championship, so y'all better root against the Warriors in the playoffs.

Kawhi - Toronto or the Clippers

Kyrie - Boston

Jimmy Butler - Not sure, but he'll pick Embiid / Simmons over Kevin Knox once the 4 stars above him have decided.

ChillinDuke
02-01-2019, 10:11 AM
Say hello to Kemba Walker! (A really good player, but probably the Knicks front office is dreaming bigger at this point.)



Lottery ticket is right.

You're not going to like my predictions:

Durant and Klay - re-signs with GSW to go for a 4-peat. Note: while I haven't fact-checked it myself, I've heard from people I trust that no star player has ever left a team that just won the championship, so y'all better root against the Warriors in the playoffs.

Kawhi - Toronto or the Clippers

Kyrie - Boston

Jimmy Butler - Not sure, but he'll pick Embiid / Simmons over Kevin Knox once the 4 stars above him have decided.

That's exactly the sort of player I'm envisioning.

Or even Jimmy Butler. He'd almost be perfect. A fantastic player that will in no way elevate a team to compete in the upper echelon of the NBA all by his lonesome. Plus he'll hopefully add a lot of drama and soundbites for the NY media.

Actually, I love it, it's perfect. Jimmy Butler, Ja Morant, Enes Kanter, and Lance Thomas - leading the Knicks to the #7 seed in the 2020 NBA Eastern Conference Playoffs.

- Chillin

JNort
02-01-2019, 11:28 AM
Count me in the "Knicks are stupid for this" camp. When you have a young star you don't give them away. KP is an impact star player. Him and Doncic are gonna be a force to reckon with and even more so if they get a decent free agent in.


Knicks got DSJ who doesn't look so good, Jordan who we know about and nothing else very valuable.

JNort
02-01-2019, 11:31 AM
Say hello to Kemba Walker! (A really good player, but probably the Knicks front office is dreaming bigger at this point.)



Lottery ticket is right.

You're not going to like my predictions:

Durant and Klay - re-signs with GSW to go for a 4-peat. Note: while I haven't fact-checked it myself, I've heard from people I trust that no star player has ever left a team that just won the championship, so y'all better root against the Warriors in the playoffs.

Kawhi - Toronto or the Clippers

Kyrie - Boston

Jimmy Butler - Not sure, but he'll pick Embiid / Simmons over Kevin Knox once the 4 stars above him have decided.

Durant won't stay.

I don't see Kyrie staying yet.

Jimmy is just a cancer and I hope he leaves.

CDu
02-01-2019, 11:36 AM
Count me in the "Knicks are stupid for this" camp. When you have a young star you don't give them away. KP is an impact star player. Him and Doncic are gonna be a force to reckon with and even more so if they get a decent free agent in.


Knicks got DSJ who doesn't look so good, Jordan who we know about and nothing else very valuable.

The Knicks did this deal for two reasons:
1. To get rid of a guy who didn't want to be there anymore; and
2. To clear cap space this summer to make a run at two max free agents.

It's a risk for sure. If they don't land those two max free agents, then they reset with Smith and a few more years of lottery picks. If they DO land those free agents, they are an immediate contender.

Troublemaker
02-01-2019, 12:06 PM
Count me in the "Knicks are stupid for this" camp. When you have a young star you don't give them away. KP is an impact star player. Him and Doncic are gonna be a force to reckon with and even more so if they get a decent free agent in.


Knicks got DSJ who doesn't look so good, Jordan who we know about and nothing else very valuable.

It's definitely not stupid. The Knicks got a ton of flexibility and some pretty good assets out of the deal, and 7'3" Porzingis may very well continue to struggle with lower body injuries in the future.

It's a pretty close call, all things considered.

And if you believe Durant is gone from the Warriors, the team that he gets linked to a lot is the Knicks.

Steven43
02-01-2019, 12:11 PM
Count me in the "Knicks are stupid for this" camp. When you have a young star you don't give them away. KP is an impact star player. Him and Doncic are gonna be a force to reckon with and even more so if they get a decent free agent in.


Knicks got DSJ who doesn't look so good, Jordan who we know about and nothing else very valuable.

The Knicks may have had well-founded concerns about the long-term health of Porzingis. No one knows him better than them. Of course they’re not going to come out and publicly express said concerns. And no matter what kind of medical check he passes with the Mavs, that may not reveal the long-term story.

kAzE
02-01-2019, 12:13 PM
A lot of buzz around Kyrie today, because of a statement he gave a reporter apparently backing out of his "commitment" to re-signing with the Celtics.

"Ask me July 1"

"I don't owe anybody s$#%"

My first impression is . . . he's posturing for the maximum amount of money from Boston. Why give Ainge all the leverage for a long term deal, on almost certainly the biggest NBA contract of his career? You have to put the possibility of leaving into Ainge's mind for the purposes of negotiation.

But then again, Kyrie is a weird, weird dude, and I have no idea what goes on in that mind of his. I wish he would just stop talking to the media, but he loves the attention.

He's my favorite player to watch, but man, he's a headache off the court.

CDu
02-01-2019, 12:19 PM
A lot of buzz around Kyrie today, because of a statement he gave a reporter apparently backing out of his "commitment" to re-signing with the Celtics.

"Ask me July 1"

"I don't owe anybody s$#%"

My first impression is . . . he's posturing for the maximum amount of money from Boston. Why give Ainge all the leverage for a long term deal, on almost certainly the biggest NBA contract of his career? You have to put the possibility of leaving into Ainge's mind for the purposes of negotiation.

But then again, Kyrie is a weird, weird dude, and I have no idea what goes on in that mind of his. I wish he would just stop talking to the media, but he loves the attention.

He's my favorite player to watch, but man, he's a headache off the court.

Yeah, I won't ever begin to know what Irving is thinking, because he's ... um ... different. I will say that Irving being a NY-ish kid and the draw of MSG plus another superstar might be appealing. I'd still view Boston as the favorite, but I'd give the Knicks a non-zero chance as well.

ChillinDuke
02-01-2019, 12:29 PM
Was the NBA always so riddled with crazy egos and opinionated players? And if not, is it a function of more media these days infiltrating every minute they possibly can of an athletes day? Or is a conscious effort by the NBA to walk a line between sport and TMZ-esque entertainment? I've heard both stated as reasons from friends who follow the NBA closely - and the two aren't mutually exclusive by any means.

It's just crazy to me. I mean, yeah, Kyrie is obviously a weird dude. But part of me wonders if it's just his shtick and that the NBA just wants players to "do stuff" to keep eyeballs. Or at least "say stuff" maybe not actually do anything.

Jimmy Butler is the example I often think about. When he was with Chicago through the early part of his career, my (not-following-too-closely) perception of him was always that he was a hard-nosed, quiet guy that did all the dirty work and was a pretty good player. Then he sort of ascended into the upper echelon of the league, Chicago fell apart as a team, and all of a sudden he was talking more than I had ever seen. The Minnesota experiment flopped, and he had that legendary practice where he essentially scorch-earthed every human in attendance.

Suddenly, I think of Jimmy Butler as a nutso, almost a team cancer. A star but a nutso cancer star. Was it just my lack of following him? Less media covering him? Less NBA emphasis on shticks? All of the above? None of the above?

Genuinely interested. Because it's a piece of the NBA I don't particularly love - I don't outright hate it, but it doesn't really attract me either.

- Chillin

BandAlum83
02-01-2019, 12:35 PM
Was the NBA always so riddled with crazy egos and opinionated players? And if not, is it a function of more media these days infiltrating every minute they possibly can of an athletes day? Or is a conscious effort by the NBA to walk a line between sport and TMZ-esque entertainment? I've heard both stated as reasons from friends who follow the NBA closely - and the two aren't mutually exclusive by any means.

It's just crazy to me. I mean, yeah, Kyrie is obviously a weird dude. But part of me wonders if it's just his shtick and that the NBA just wants players to "do stuff" to keep eyeballs. Or at least "say stuff" maybe not actually do anything.

Jimmy Butler is the example I often think about. When he was with Chicago through the early part of his career, my (not-following-too-closely) perception of him was always that he was a hard-nosed, quiet guy that did all the dirty work and was a pretty good player. Then he sort of ascended into the upper echelon of the league, Chicago fell apart as a team, and all of a sudden he was talking more than I had ever seen. The Minnesota experiment flopped, and he had that legendary practice where he essentially scorch-earthed every human in attendance.

Suddenly, I think of Jimmy Butler as a nutso, almost a team cancer. A star but a nutso cancer star. Was it just my lack of following him? Less media covering him? Less NBA emphasis on shticks? All of the above? None of the above?

Genuinely interested. Because it's a piece of the NBA I don't particularly love - I don't outright hate it, but it doesn't really attract me either.

- Chillin

I don't follow the NBA the way I did back in the day when I had Hawks season tickets. What you describe sounds more like the WWF, with contrived characters and good guy / bad guy set ups.

MarkD83
02-01-2019, 12:36 PM
Was the NBA always so riddled with crazy egos and opinionated players? And if not, is it a function of more media these days infiltrating every minute they possibly can of an athletes day? Or is a conscious effort by the NBA to walk a line between sport and TMZ-esque entertainment? I've heard both stated as reasons from friends who follow the NBA closely - and the two aren't mutually exclusive by any means.

It's just crazy to me. I mean, yeah, Kyrie is obviously a weird dude. But part of me wonders if it's just his shtick and that the NBA just wants players to "do stuff" to keep eyeballs. Or at least "say stuff" maybe not actually do anything.

Jimmy Butler is the example I often think about. When he was with Chicago through the early part of his career, my (not-following-too-closely) perception of him was always that he was a hard-nosed, quiet guy that did all the dirty work and was a pretty good player. Then he sort of ascended into the upper echelon of the league, Chicago fell apart as a team, and all of a sudden he was talking more than I had ever seen. The Minnesota experiment flopped, and he had that legendary practice where he essentially scorch-earthed every human in attendance.

Suddenly, I think of Jimmy Butler as a nutso, almost a team cancer. A star but a nutso cancer star. Was it just my lack of following him? Less media covering him? Less NBA emphasis on shticks? All of the above? None of the above?

Genuinely interested. Because it's a piece of the NBA I don't particularly love - I don't outright hate it, but it doesn't really attract me either.

- Chillin

How much of this is career progression from 1 being happy to be in the league. To 2 being a star in the league. To 3 wanting to win a championship to 4 not giving a d.... but wanting to make as much money before you retire

Steven43
02-01-2019, 12:39 PM
A lot of buzz around Kyrie today, because of a statement he gave a reporter apparently backing out of his "commitment" to re-signing with the Celtics.

"Ask me July 1"

"I don't owe anybody s$#%"

My first impression is . . . he's posturing for the maximum amount of money from Boston. Why give Ainge all the leverage for a long term deal, on almost certainly the biggest NBA contract of his career? You have to put the possibility of leaving into Ainge's mind for the purposes of negotiation.

But then again, Kyrie is a weird, weird dude, and I have no idea what goes on in that mind of his. I wish he would just stop talking to the media, but he loves the attention.

He's my favorite player to watch, but man, he's a headache off the court.
If I’m the Celtics I say get this guy out of here before it’s too late. Can’t have a headcase as your team leader.

Indoor66
02-01-2019, 12:48 PM
There is too much air time to fill so there are too many interviews and too much parsing of words to find hidden meaning. Same applies to politics.

kAzE
02-01-2019, 12:57 PM
If I’m the Celtics I say get this guy out of here before it’s too late. Can’t have a headcase as your team leader.

I mean, this type of passive aggressive behavior is straight out the LeBron playbook. Kyrie is obviously no LeBron on the court, but he's every bit as frustrating off the court. But still, I think most would agree that Kyrie is good enough to be a franchise player. No question that you'd rather have Al Horford be your team leader, though. Unfortunately, Horford's not quite the All-Star he once was, and that gives him less of a voice on the team. I don't see Kyrie ever becoming a more reserved personality.

As a Celtics supporter, my hope is that Davis is traded to Boston, signs there long term, and as the best player on the team, becomes the team's leader. Despite his trade request, I think he's certainly less dramatic than Kyrie. The trade request I believe was a calculated business decision, but AD himself is not the attention-seeking type.

No matter what Kyrie thinks of himself, he is an ATROCIOUS leader. If Gordon Hayward's slow recovery back to All-Star form isn't the #1 reason the Celtics have disappointed this year, it's probably Kyrie's bad leadership.

Billy Dat
02-01-2019, 01:21 PM
Was the NBA always so riddled with crazy egos and opinionated players? And if not, is it a function of more media these days infiltrating every minute they possibly can of an athletes day? Or is a conscious effort by the NBA to walk a line between sport and TMZ-esque entertainment? I've heard both stated as reasons from friends who follow the NBA closely - and the two aren't mutually exclusive by any means.

An NBA pundit on social media (can't remember who) said that Lebron's #1 legacy will be showing that a player can wrestle control of their destiny away from the owners throughout their career. I think the internet and social media has allowed players (and, really, anyone who wants to..cough...like our President) a voice that dictates the storyline and controls the narrative to suit their ends. While I don't argue that it can come off as "crazy egos" and "opinionated", and that can certainly be true, I think it's a means to an end where the player does what they want. Lebron crafted his own teams in Miami and Cleveland and is in the process of doing so in LA. Kyrie took a page from his book and forced his way to Boston and now seems to be doing it again. Kawhi forced his way out of San Antonio. Butler forced his way out of Minnesota. AD is forcing himself out of Nawlins and on and on.

Troublemaker
02-01-2019, 01:33 PM
There is too much air time to fill so there are too many interviews and too much parsing of words to find hidden meaning.

Yup, agreed.


If I’m the Celtics I say get this guy out of here before it’s too late. Can’t have a headcase as your team leader.

Between not trading for AD and then shipping Kyrie out because of some quotes that are probably less concerning when taken in context (https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/am46rp/full_video_of_kyrie_irvings_comments/), what is the master plan for restoring the Celtics to championship glory? We'll see what Ainge does, but I suspect he badly wants to re-sign Kyrie and trade for AD.

As for Kyrie, I think he's a normal guy that (cringingly) wants to seem like he's not normal.

ChillinDuke
02-01-2019, 01:45 PM
An NBA pundit on social media (can't remember who) said that Lebron's #1 legacy will be showing that a player can wrestle control of their destiny away from the owners throughout their career. I think the internet and social media has allowed players (and, really, anyone who wants to..cough...like our President) a voice that dictates the storyline and controls the narrative to suit their ends. While I don't argue that it can come off as "crazy egos" and "opinionated", and that can certainly be true, I think it's a means to an end where the player does what they want. Lebron crafted his own teams in Miami and Cleveland and is in the process of doing so in LA. Kyrie took a page from his book and forced his way to Boston and now seems to be doing it again. Kawhi forced his way out of San Antonio. Butler forced his way out of Minnesota. AD is forcing himself out of Nawlins and on and on.

Interesting perspective. Thank you.

I find the NBA a very interesting case study - especially as it relates to my own personal relationship with it. When I was young, I was a diehard so much so that my father bought partial season tickets (1/7 of a season) so that we could attend some games. I followed it really straight through high school until I sort of "paused" while I 100% invested in Duke during my time there. After I graduated, I've honestly tried (almost annually) to get back into the NBA. I just can't seem to get back into it. I often try to rationalize why - for better or worse - I can't get back into it. There are many reasons, I'm sure. But my own maturation and life changes running parallel to changes in the NBA over the decades still interests me and I often explore the dynamics both on this Board and outside it.

The point you raise intrigues me. In a world where people can cultivate their own brand and in a sport where singular players can empower entire franchises, is the NBA going to continue to move in a direction, that you allude to and that I further envision, where singular players become "kings" of each team with 30 stars singularly "running" teams and pitching secondary players (and sometimes other stars) to join them? Is that the direction that the NBA is headed? Is that the legacy that Lebron created and that others will now emulate? Because if so, that is a great reason to become disinterested because it becomes a lot more like politics than it does competitive sport.

And I, for one, certainly hate politics and certainly love competitive sport.

Again, thanks.

- Chillin

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-01-2019, 01:46 PM
Yup, agreed.



Between not trading for AD and then shipping Kyrie out because of some quotes that are probably less concerning when taken in context (https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/am46rp/full_video_of_kyrie_irvings_comments/), what is the master plan for restoring the Celtics to championship glory? We'll see what Ainge does, but I suspect he badly wants to re-sign Kyrie and trade for AD.

As for Kyrie, I think he's a normal guy that (cringingly) wants to seem like he's not normal.

I can't decide if Kyrie is a headcase or just a trickster. He is certainly an amazing talent.

I don't agree that he can't lead a team. I think he desperately wants to prove he can. One can't help but wonder if a full season at PG under K would have honed those skills a bit better.

Additionally, while I'm on this thread, I have zero problems with how Lebron has conducted his business off the court. He is the first player to recognize and leverage the power of being a superstar, and I don't weep for those poor, poor franchise owners who have had him earn them championships.

LasVegas
02-01-2019, 01:47 PM
So does this mean no one “won” the Cavs/Celtics trade?;)

CDu
02-01-2019, 02:06 PM
Interesting perspective. Thank you.

I find the NBA a very interesting case study - especially as it relates to my own personal relationship with it. When I was young, I was a diehard so much so that my father bought partial season tickets (1/7 of a season) so that we could attend some games. I followed it really straight through high school until I sort of "paused" while I 100% invested in Duke during my time there. After I graduated, I've honestly tried (almost annually) to get back into the NBA. I just can't seem to get back into it. I often try to rationalize why - for better or worse - I can't get back into it. There are many reasons, I'm sure. But my own maturation and life changes running parallel to changes in the NBA over the decades still interests me and I often explore the dynamics both on this Board and outside it.

The point you raise intrigues me. In a world where people can cultivate their own brand and in a sport where singular players can empower entire franchises, is the NBA going to continue to move in a direction, that you allude to and that I further envision, where singular players become "kings" of each team with 30 stars singularly "running" teams and pitching secondary players (and sometimes other stars) to join them? Is that the direction that the NBA is headed? Is that the legacy that Lebron created and that others will now emulate? Because if so, that is a great reason to become disinterested because it becomes a lot more like politics than it does competitive sport.

And I, for one, certainly hate politics and certainly love competitive sport.

Again, thanks.

- Chillin

The counterquestion to this is this: why shouldn't the players have the right to choose where they want to with and the power to influence their organization hiring who they want to work with? In any other industry in the US, that's how it works - the people with the most value/skill generally get to choose their place of employment and have sway over who works with them, while the people that don't matter much have to take what they can get. Only in sports do we find people complaining about players having control. It's a little weird to me.


Between not trading for AD and then shipping Kyrie out because of some quotes that are probably less concerning when taken in context (https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/am46rp/full_video_of_kyrie_irvings_comments/), what is the master plan for restoring the Celtics to championship glory? We'll see what Ainge does, but I suspect he badly wants to re-sign Kyrie and trade for AD.

As for Kyrie, I think he's a normal guy that (cringingly) wants to seem like he's not normal.

I agree with both of these. I can't imagine Ainge not trying to complete a trade for Davis, and I can't imagine him not trying to re-sign Irving. For better or for worse, this is one of the last chances to realistically consolidate what he's built into something more. If he misses on Davis, he probably loses Irving to free agency. And at that point, Boston is back into bball purgatory with a good but not great team with some okay but not great draft assets. He NEEDS to make the AD trade and Kyrie resign happen.

As for Kyrie, I feel the same way about him: a dude who wants people to think he's an intellectual despite not really being one, and who regularly flubs attempts to prove he is an intellectual.

But MAN, can the dude dribble a basketball.


I can't decide if Kyrie is a headcase or just a trickster. He is certainly an amazing talent.

I don't agree that he can't lead a team. I think he desperately wants to prove he can. One can't help but wonder if a full season at PG under K would have honed those skills a bit better.

Additionally, while I'm on this thread, I have zero problems with how Lebron has conducted his business off the court. He is the first player to recognize and leverage the power of being a superstar, and I don't weep for those poor, poor franchise owners who have had him earn them championships.

I think Irving is still young enough that he could develop. He clearly wants to be the man, as he has recently admitted in a recent interview about his leaving of Cleveland. He just doesn't know how to do it yet. Maybe he matures into that role with time. In terms of his basketball skills, he has the tools to do it. Whether or not he figures out what it takes to become a leader can only be answered with time and more experience. He's never really had an opportunity to lead before: at Duke he was the freshman to two star seniors and Coach K. In his early NBA years his team stunk and he clearly wasn't ready to lead. Then LeBron was the leader. Then last year he got hurt. This is his first time sort of taking that moniker, and it's been bumpy. Hopefully with more growing pains he figures it out.

I'm not sure that one season with Coach K (or more specifically 2/3 more of a season) would be enough to truly matter. I feel like one thing lost in the one-and-done era is a coach's ability to truly develop/mold a player - even as great a coach as Coach K is.

I totally agree about LeBron though. Because if the players don't have the power/leverage, that implicitly means the owners do. And I don't particularly care for that at all.

JNort
02-01-2019, 02:11 PM
I thought this has been a given for months that Kyrie was gone and possibly headed to New York.

cato
02-01-2019, 02:29 PM
No matter what Kyrie thinks of himself, he is an ATROCIOUS leader. If Gordon Hayward's slow recovery back to All-Star form isn't the #1 reason the Celtics have disappointed this year, it's probably Kyrie's bad leadership.

Kyrie Irving is 26 and, before the Celtics’ trade, has never been the leader of a team that was not a dumpster fire.

I am in my mid-40s and have been a lawyer for close to two decades. I am working on my leadership skills, with plenty of role models and good leadership in place.

Maybe give him some time before calling him out for being ATROCIOUS?

CDu
02-01-2019, 02:44 PM
Kyrie Irving is 26 and, before the Celtics’ trade, has never been the leader of a team that was not a dumpster fire.

I am in my mid-40s and have been a lawyer for close to two decades. I am working on my leadership skills, with plenty of role models and good leadership in place.

Maybe give him some time before calling him out for being ATROCIOUS?

Eh, I think it is fair to say that he has been a really bad leader. There are understandable reasons for it, as you have noted. That doesn't mean that he hasn't been an awful leader to this point. It just provides potential context of why that has been the case.

Now, to say he will always be an atrocious leader would be inappropriate, for the same reasons you suggest.

cato
02-01-2019, 02:51 PM
Eh, I think it is fair to say that he has been a really bad leader. There are understandable reasons for it, as you have noted. That doesn't mean that he hasn't been an awful leader to this point. It just provides potential context of why that has been the case.

Now, to say he will always be an atrocious leader would be inappropriate, for the same reasons you suggest.

Agreed. Whether or not Kyrie can become an effective leader is one of the most interesting pieces in the NBA puzzle these days. How he handles the rest of this season and his offseason will be very revealing.

Billy Dat
02-01-2019, 02:57 PM
Agreed. Whether or not Kyrie can become an effective leader is one of the most interesting pieces in the NBA puzzle these days. How he handles the rest of this season and his offseason will be very revealing.

Not to derail the thread, but when I think about sports leadership, I always come back to this 2009 SI profile on Bobby Orr, and I don't even follow hockey:
https://www.si.com/vault/2009/03/02/105783066/the-ever-elusive-always-inscrutable-and-still-incomparable-bobby-orr

"Game days, Orr would arrive at 2:30 for a 7:30 start, play cards, bang around the emptiness,sort through the 144 sticks sent him every few weeks—weighing them, selecting two, maybe three, discarding the rest—getting himself ready. His teammates would file in at five or six o'clock. He'd wander about then with one stick weighted with lead or with pucks taped to the blade, shifting it from hand to hand. Locker room music rarely played. "I have never run into any player who brings the intensity that he brought," says Sinden, who spent 45 years as a coach or front office executive. "His silence, his looks, were enough to tell you if he didn't like what was happening. And he made the rest of us the same way. You could not be around him without feeling that and getting inline."

If you had a bad period? Or dogged it? Sanderson's locker was by a pillar, and he'd set his chair so the pillar would block Orr's view from across the room. "Is he looking?" Esposito would whisper. Always, Orr would be staring lasers. Sanderson only felt worse when Orr would wait until he was alone, come over and mutter, "You got to pick it up. We need you."

Steven43
02-01-2019, 03:21 PM
Yup, agreed.



Between not trading for AD and then shipping Kyrie out because of some [insane things Kyrie has repeatedly said over several years] what is the master plan for restoring the Celtics to championship glory?
Who knows what the master plan is. I certainly don’t. But if Irving does not commit long-term to the Celtics and SOON, get him the he## out of Boston.

kAzE
02-01-2019, 03:29 PM
Agreed. Whether or not Kyrie can become an effective leader is one of the most interesting pieces in the NBA puzzle these days. How he handles the rest of this season and his offseason will be very revealing.

Yeah, I wasn't implying that he could never improve. In fact, it's almost a given that he will improve on his leadership skills because it's almost impossible to be worse than he has been this season. All of the passive aggressive behavior. Taking shots at his own teammates through post game comments to the media. Stirring the pot with rumors regarding his free agency. None of that helps his team, and only creates distractions. You just don't do these things if you want your team to succeed. All of that has be kept in house, and behind closed doors.

I think the ideal team leader in the modern era of the NBA was Tim Duncan. You never heard Duncan ever call out a teammate in public. He made being boring an art, and that's probably the best way to do it.

CDu
02-01-2019, 03:30 PM
Who knows what the master plan is. I certainly don’t. But if Irving does not commit long-term to the Celtics and SOON, get him the he#% out of Boston.

I will say that his recent quotes certainly aren't helping Boston. It sounds like Davis won't commit to re-signing with Boston because he doesn't think Irving will either. So quotes like "we'll see in July" don't help instill confidence. And that has implications for New Orleans. They really need Boston to be a trade partner in the summer in order to confidently turn down whatever LA can offer this week.

Troublemaker
02-01-2019, 03:44 PM
Who knows what the master plan is. I certainly don’t. But if Irving does not commit long-term to the Celtics and SOON, get him the he## out of Boston.

Why the "he##" would Kyrie do something that is not expected of any other pending free agent? Serious question: have you ever followed free agency before today? Star players routinely remain non-committal through the end of their contract. "Ask me July 1st" is probably the most normal thing Kyrie has said in awhile, haha.

CDu
02-01-2019, 03:51 PM
Why the "he##" would Kyrie do something that is not expected of any other pending free agent? Serious question: have you ever followed free agency before today? Star players routinely remain non-committal through the end of their contract. "Ask me July 1st" is probably the most normal thing Kyrie has said in awhile, haha.

Well, with max free agents, I'm not sure it matters whether he says he wants to stay or not. He's going to sign for the max wherever he goes, whether that is the super-max with Boston or a lower max elsewhere.

The reason to be more certain of his choice would be to help assure AD of Boston as a destination. The uncertainty he's creating now puts Boston and New Orleans in precarious positions with regards to a trade, as New Orleans needs to be confident Boston will bid big this summer in order to spurn offers now, Boston needs to be confident AD will sign in order to offer big, and AD needs Kyrie to be locked in to feel comfortable committing to Boston.

kAzE
02-01-2019, 03:52 PM
Well, with max free agents, I'm not sure it matters whether he says he wants to stay or not. He's going to sign for the max wherever he goes, whether that is the super-max with Boston or a lower max elsewhere.

I was under the impression that you could only do the supermax with the team who drafted you. Is that not the case?

Steven43
02-01-2019, 03:59 PM
Well, with max free agents, I'm not sure it matters whether he says he wants to stay or not. He's going to sign for the max wherever he goes, whether that is the super-max with Boston or a lower max elsewhere.

The reason to be more certain of his choice would be to help assure AD of Boston as a destination. The uncertainty he's creating now puts Boston and New Orleans in precarious positions with regards to a trade, as New Orleans needs to be confident Boston will bid big this summer in order to spurn offers now, Boston needs to be confident AD will sign in order to offer big, and AD needs Kyrie to be locked in to feel comfortable committing to Boston.

THIS is what I was implying. You said it well.

CDu
02-01-2019, 04:07 PM
I was under the impression that you could only do the supermax with the team who drafted you. Is that not the case?

Well, yes and no. You are eligible for the super max as long as you are on the team that you were on during your rookie contract. So a player traded during his rookie contract would be eligible for the supermax, so long as he met the other criteria of making an All-NBA team or PoY/DPoY. So, no, you don't have to have been with the team that drafted you, but yes Irving is not eligible for the supermax since he was on his second contract when he was traded to the Celtics.

So, change my sentence to "max" instead of "supermax", as he isn't eligible for that.

kAzE
02-01-2019, 04:54 PM
Why the "he##" would Kyrie do something that is not expected of any other pending free agent? Serious question: have you ever followed free agency before today? Star players routinely remain non-committal through the end of their contract. "Ask me July 1st" is probably the most normal thing Kyrie has said in awhile, haha.

He made some foolish decisions in declaring that he planned on re-signing with the Celtics in front of season ticket holders, as well as filming a commercial at TD Garden saying he wanted his jersey in the rafters. So now, he's having to basically sabotage the public trust he built up with those moves, in order to create enough doubt to have leverage in contract negotiations (or least that's my theory).

The best way to do this would be to remain noncommittal this entire time, and answer every question about free agency with "I am focused on this year's team, and pursuing a championship this season. I have not thought about free agency, and I don't plan on making a decision until this summer."

If he does that, it's a non-story. But Kyrie loves being the talk of the NBA.

ChillinDuke
02-01-2019, 05:52 PM
The counterquestion to this is this: why shouldn't the players have the right to choose where they want to with and the power to influence their organization hiring who they want to work with? In any other industry in the US, that's how it works - the people with the most value/skill generally get to choose their place of employment and have sway over who works with them, while the people that don't matter much have to take what they can get. Only in sports do we find people complaining about players having control. It's a little weird to me.

I see your general point, but I don't believe it's that simple. Often, people make this argument about employment rights (read: players vs owners). I don't explicitly care about that.

What I care about is the fairness of competition, irrespective of who has the "power".

In the vast, vast majority of industries in the U.S., companies and the related business context are complicated enough that single people don't change the balance of power as it relates to competition. There are too many forces and dynamics at play.

In the NBA, one single player can change everything for a team. Only in sports do we find people complaining about players having control because sports (really, the NBA) are the only example I can think of where the power is so concentrated in a single person.

If a U.S. company was driven by a singular employee having the right to make (nearly) all decisions, and that singular employee was able to lure the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc best employees so as to make a mega corporation that commanded all the business in an industry and all the revenues, I can darn well assure you that it wouldn't be "weird" for a ton of people to want to break up that company and not allow such a thing to happen, for the benefit of collective stakeholders throughout the industry (and world). But that doesn't really happen because businesses have developed into such complex organizations that they mostly require many people to operate them.

So I don't view it as a rights issue. It gets boiled down to that, but my view is that's misdirected. The issue to me is fair and balanced competition - because this is sports and that's the point of it all - in theory - at least to me. Others may say it's only about entertainment, I guess, but I don't think athletes view their industry as explicitly entertainment - that's more of a byproduct of the competition.

Anyway, this got away from NBA regular season - my question was originally legitimate and interested. I wanted to hear others' views on how the NBA has developed over time and what the future held for the NBA's business direction. But I guess I should have expected being indirectly labeled an "owner homer" that doesn't think players should have employment rights. Because why would anyone actually want to talk objectively about Lebron's legacy, the NBA's brand, and their combined go-forward impact on the next generation of NBA talent?

- Chillin

CDu
02-01-2019, 06:37 PM
I see your general point, but I don't believe it's that simple. Often, people make this argument about employment rights (read: players vs owners). I don't explicitly care about that.

What I care about is the fairness of competition, irrespective of who has the "power".

In the vast, vast majority of industries in the U.S., companies and the related business context are complicated enough that single people don't change the balance of power as it relates to competition. There are too many forces and dynamics at play.

In the NBA, one single player can change everything for a team. Only in sports do we find people complaining about players having control because sports (really, the NBA) are the only example I can think of where the power is so concentrated in a single person.

If a U.S. company was driven by a singular employee having the right to make (nearly) all decisions, and that singular employee was able to lure the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc best employees so as to make a mega corporation that commanded all the business in an industry and all the revenues, I can darn well assure you that it wouldn't be "weird" for a ton of people to want to break up that company and not allow such a thing to happen, for the benefit of collective stakeholders throughout the industry (and world). But that doesn't really happen because businesses have developed into such complex organizations that they mostly require many people to operate them.

So I don't view it as a rights issue. It gets boiled down to that, but my view is that's misdirected. The issue to me is fair and balanced competition - because this is sports and that's the point of it all - in theory - at least to me. Others may say it's only about entertainment, I guess, but I don't think athletes view their industry as explicitly entertainment - that's more of a byproduct of the competition.

Anyway, this got away from NBA regular season - my question was originally legitimate and interested. I wanted to hear others' views on how the NBA has developed over time and what the future held for the NBA's business direction. But I guess I should have expected being indirectly labeled an "owner homer" that doesn't think players should have employment rights. Because why would anyone actually want to talk objectively about Lebron's legacy, the NBA's brand, and their combined go-forward impact on the next generation of NBA talent?

- Chillin

Hmm, you don’t believe pro b-ball - where there is a salary cap designed to help build competitive balance - is following the spirit of fair competition, but you are a fan of college b-ball where the competitive balance is far worse?

ChillinDuke
02-01-2019, 07:32 PM
Hmm, you don’t believe pro b-ball - where there is a salary cap designed to help build competitive balance - is following the spirit of fair competition, but you are a fan of college b-ball where the competitive balance is far worse?

Why do you seem to be talking down with introductions like "hmm"? I don't appreciate that, CDu.

Context matters. The NBA may have more competitive balance than say the ACC vs the AEC. But within the ACC there's a decent ability for teams to surprise and the relatively shorter season makes for higher volatility. And of course a one game elimination tournament is much more volatile than a 7-game playoff series where the winner is many times a foregone conclusion.

Anyway, I'm done with this as I don't really want to be talked down to and I sense that being the case. I was asking a legitimate question on the direction of the NBA and was interested in hearing responses until now.

- Chillin

CDu
02-01-2019, 07:51 PM
Why do you seem to be talking down with introductions like "hmm"? I don't appreciate that, CDu.

Context matters. The NBA may have more competitive balance than say the ACC vs the AEC. But within the ACC there's a decent ability for teams to surprise and the relatively shorter season makes for higher volatility. And of course a one game elimination tournament is much more volatile than a 7-game playoff series where the winner is many times a foregone conclusion.

Anyway, I'm done with this as I don't really want to be talked down to and I sense that being the case. I was asking a legitimate question on the direction of the NBA and was interested in hearing responses until now.

- Chillin

I wasn’t talking down to you, sorry if that is how you took it. I am genuinely confused by the thought process is all, and the “hmm” was me thinking out loud. I would also disagree that competitive balance within a conference than in the NBA. But my responses were/are intended to draw out more of the thought process and expand on the implications involved.

Also, I kind of feel like my response WAS a continuation on the direction of the NBA. Because you can’t really disentangle the issue of players’ rights from the competitive balance issue. Either players have the right to choose where they work or they don’t. If you feel that star players shouldn’t be able to dictate where they work and who they work with in the interest of competitive balance, then isn’t that inherently saying you care more about competitive balance than players’ right to choose where they work?

Also, I didn’t call you an “owner homer.” I just don’t think one can talk about competitive balance without talking about players’ rights. The two are inherently linked.

So, to directly respond to your question, I am happy that LeBron has empowered the players. Because they are the reason people watch, and as such I feel like they should have control over something. Considering that the NBA has artificially restricted star players’ incomes (really, I think there should be no limit on what a player can make within the confines of the salary cap), I am glad that LeBron found a way to tilt the balance of power toward the players in some form.

Steven43
02-01-2019, 08:35 PM
So, to directly respond to your question, I am happy that LeBron has empowered the players. Because they are the reason people watch, and as such I feel like they should have control over something. Considering that the NBA has artificially restricted star players’ incomes (really, I think there should be no limit on what a player can make within the confines of the salary cap), I am glad that LeBron found a way to tilt the balance of power toward the players in some f.
Well, I don’t necessarily agree with the premise that players “are the reason people watch.” I think there are millions and millions of people who primarily watch because they have a favorite team and they root for them regardless of who is a member of said team. I am one of those people. I don’t just watch any random regular season NBA game just because it is on television, regardless of whether or not Lebron James or Anthony Davis or James Harden or Ben Simmons or Jimmy Butler or Russell Westbrook is playing.

Yet I will watch a Boston Celtics regular season game no matter who is on their team. However, when the playoffs are on — particularly when the series favorite is playing at the home of the underdog — I will watch, but I don’t care all that much which players are involved. I like to watch important games where the outcome is in doubt. And for the record, what Lebron James started by making a big deal about going to Miami (The Decision was an obnoxious, arrogant travesty) and pulling players in with hm was probably the event I despise more than anything else in NBA history. And then he did it again when he self-servingly returned to Cleveland and again when he went to Los Angeles. And now we have the constant circus that we have, which I absolute do not like.

Steven43
02-01-2019, 09:13 PM
And now we have the constant circus that we have, which I absolute do not like.

*absolutely

Somebody fix it, please. Bad things happen when I don’t proofread.

Troublemaker
02-02-2019, 09:15 AM
THIS is what I was implying. You said it well.

Wait, how does CDu's post that you are replying to here have anything to do with trading Kyrie if he doesn't commit to re-signing with Boston?

We apparently share the superpower to imply. In that last sentence I just wrote, I was implying the full text of War and Peace :-)

What you MEANT to say, I think, is "I overreacted initially and now realize that pending free agents rarely commit before the free agency start date since they enjoy the process of being recruited."



The reason to be more certain of his choice would be to help assure AD of Boston as a destination. The uncertainty he's creating now puts Boston and New Orleans in precarious positions with regards to a trade, as New Orleans needs to be confident Boston will bid big this summer in order to spurn offers now, Boston needs to be confident AD will sign in order to offer big, and AD needs Kyrie to be locked in to feel comfortable committing to Boston.

Those commitments will occur in the offseason, in private conversations between AD, Kyrie, and the Celtics, not through the media in early February.

Even if Kyrie told the media he was staying, AD and the Celtics need to operate like nothing is finalized until Kyrie's signature is on the dotted line.


He made some foolish decisions in declaring that he planned on re-signing with the Celtics in front of season ticket holders, as well as filming a commercial at TD Garden saying he wanted his jersey in the rafters.

I agree with this. It's a bad look for Kyrie and is not endearing to the fans. But from a front office perspective, nothing changes. If Kyrie says he's staying, you have to operate as if there's a chance he could leave. If Kyrie says he's leaving, you have to operate as if there's a chance he could stay if you make transactions X, Y, Z.

As Indoor66 said, truly we should not be hanging all over every word that comes out of these players' mouths. When Kyrie originally said he would re-sign, I would've bet like 10 pies that during the long NBA season, Kyrie would eventually say something more non-committal than that.


Hmm, you don’t believe pro b-ball - where there is a salary cap designed to help build competitive balance - is following the spirit of fair competition, but you are a fan of college b-ball where the competitive balance is far worse?


And of course a one game elimination tournament is much more volatile than a 7-game playoff series where the winner is many times a foregone conclusion.

I don't want to get into the other stuff (owners vs players), but yes, the NCAA Tournament is the great equalizer. You won't see anything like Mercer over Duke, Lehigh over Duke, UMBC over UVA in the NBA.

The NBA is generally considered to be the most predictable sport of the major U.S. sports. For example, oddsmakers give the Warriors anywhere from a 60 to 75% chance of winning the title, and I can't disagree that they're at least a favorite against the field.

budwom
02-02-2019, 09:18 AM
Kyrie and Danny Ainge need to have a conversation....it may have happened already.

BD80
02-02-2019, 09:29 AM
Kyrie and Danny Ainge need to have a conversation...it may have happened already.

And the first words of the conversation need to be: "It's ROUND"

CDu
02-02-2019, 09:32 AM
Those commitments will occur in the offseason, in private conversations between AD, Kyrie, and the Celtics, not through the media in early February.

Even if Kyrie told the media he was staying, AD and the Celtics need to operate like nothing is finalized until Kyrie's signature is on the dotted line.

Except that you have omitted the first step in the equation here. AD, Irving, and the Celtics aren’t the only players here. New Orleans has to make a decision this week. They either need to deal him now (this week) or run the risk that Irving leaves Boston this summer and the Celtics are out of the AD sweepstakes. At that point, the Lakers could offer less for him knowing that they don’t have any serious competition. The more Irving is noncommittal about his future in Boston, the more New Orleans has to question their stance on waiting for the Celtics.

Now, they may ultimately take that risk anyway. But why exacerbate the risk unnecessarily if you are Irving? You run the risk of pushing New Orleans into making a decision now and eliminating the opportunity for AD, Irving, and the Celtics to hash it out this summer.


I agree with this. It's a bad look for Kyrie and is not endearing to the fans. But from a front office perspective, nothing changes. If Kyrie says he's staying, you have to operate as if there's a chance he could leave. If Kyrie says he's leaving, you have to operate as if there's a chance he could stay if you make transactions X, Y, Z.

Didn’t you just recently make a comment about why in the h$&! would Irving give up negotiating leverage by saying he would stay? This sounds contradictory to that.

Basically, I see no upside in Irving being noncommittal. You piss off your fans. You at least somewhat weaken the probability that your current team will get AD. And what do you get in return? Nothing. Because Irving will sign for the max wherever he goes/stays.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 09:35 AM
Wait, how does CDu's post that you are replying to here have anything to do with trading Kyrie if he doesn't commit to re-signing with Boston?

We apparently share the superpower to imply. In that last sentence I just wrote, I was implying the full text of War and Peace :-)

What you MEANT to say, I think, is "I overreacted initially and now realize that pending free agents rarely commit before the free agency start date since they enjoy the process of being recruited."

Maybe you’re right; I don’t know for sure. I don’t really feel motivated to go back and analyze what was previously written. I’ll just take your word on this one.

WillJ
02-02-2019, 09:46 AM
Holy $&#*$* was he good last night.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 10:06 AM
Holy $&#*$* was he good last night.

I’m not even totally sure who that is. Which college did he attend and which NBA team does he play for (Denver, maybe?) and what did he do last night?

CDu
02-02-2019, 10:13 AM
I’m not even totally sure who that is. Which college did he attend and which NBA team does he play for (Denver, maybe?) and what did he do last night?

FSU and Denver. And he along with Jokic helped Denver beat Houston last night.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 11:03 AM
FSU and Denver. And he along with Jokic helped Denver beat Houston last night.
Oh yeah, FSU. I remember him now. He was pretty good during his one year of college.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-02-2019, 11:37 AM
All of this huffing and puffing is mostly teams getting frustrated that players are attempting to leverage their power. Large and small markets are intimidated by this, but it seems the next inevitable step. Players are recognizing the pressure exerted by publicly stating their discontent. It neuter their team, meaning their destination doesn't have to risk as much, giving them better teammates.

Troublemaker
02-02-2019, 11:41 AM
Didn’t you just recently make a comment about why in the h$&! would Irving give up negotiating leverage by saying he would stay? This sounds contradictory to that.

Basically, I see no upside in Irving being noncommittal. You piss off your fans. You at least somewhat weaken the probability that your current team will get AD. And what do you get in return? Nothing. Because Irving will sign for the max wherever he goes/stays.

Nope, I think it was kAze that talked about negotiating leverage. (And if you followed the conversation, you'll know that my use of "he##" was a cheeky response to Steven's use of it).

I just flatly don't expect Kyrie to commit to Boston before free agency starts when almost no other pending free agent does something like that. Regardless of his reason. (Maybe he's just undecided?)


Except that you have omitted the first step in the equation here. AD, Irving, and the Celtics aren’t the only players here. New Orleans has to make a decision this week. They either need to deal him now (this week) or run the risk that Irving leaves Boston this summer and the Celtics are out of the AD sweepstakes. At that point, the Lakers could offer less for him knowing that they don’t have any serious competition. The more Irving is noncommittal about his future in Boston, the more New Orleans has to question their stance on waiting for the Celtics.

Now, they may ultimately take that risk anyway. But why exacerbate the risk unnecessarily if you are Irving? You run the risk of pushing New Orleans into making a decision now and eliminating the opportunity for AD, Irving, and the Celtics to hash it out this summer.

No, the first step is Kyrie deciding he wants to stay in Boston. While I ultimately expect him to do so, that doesn't mean he has to decide now for the benefit of any team. Kyrie's going to experience free agency, and Boston and New Orleans will just have to deal with that.

And I really don't think these front offices are taking anything he says publicly as seriously as media and fans. Certainly I don't expect Boston to trade him. I don't expect the 76ers to trade Butler because he's non-committal, or the Warriors to trade Durant because he's non-committal, etc etc.

ice-9
02-02-2019, 12:09 PM
Basically, I see no upside in Irving being noncommittal. You piss off your fans. You at least somewhat weaken the probability that your current team will get AD. And what do you get in return? Nothing. Because Irving will sign for the max wherever he goes/stays.

I was really surprised Irving proclaimed he wanted to re-sign with the Celtics. Wouldn’t have done that if I was him.

The season is long, lots of things can happen, minds change, other players move here and there...

I’m of the opposite mindset as you CDu. There’s no advantage to being committed unless you’re absolutely sure you’re committed. And he probably isn’t.

Agree with you though that Kyrie wasn’t a good leader this season. He will get better with experience.

Duke79UNLV77
02-02-2019, 01:02 PM
I mean, this type of passive aggressive behavior is straight out the LeBron playbook. Kyrie is obviously no LeBron on the court, but he's every bit as frustrating off the court. But still, I think most would agree that Kyrie is good enough to be a franchise player. No question that you'd rather have Al Horford be your team leader, though. Unfortunately, Horford's not quite the All-Star he once was, and that gives him less of a voice on the team. I don't see Kyrie ever becoming a more reserved personality.

As a Celtics supporter, my hope is that Davis is traded to Boston, signs there long term, and as the best player on the team, becomes the team's leader. Despite his trade request, I think he's certainly less dramatic than Kyrie. The trade request I believe was a calculated business decision, but AD himself is not the attention-seeking type.

No matter what Kyrie thinks of himself, he is an ATROCIOUS leader. If Gordon Hayward's slow recovery back to All-Star form isn't the #1 reason the Celtics have disappointed this year, it's probably Kyrie's bad leadership.

So, Kyrie can’t lead because he didn’t win big as a 20 year old surrounded by zero talent or coaching, and then leaving his option open as a free agent (like most all stars do), with the prospect of teaming up with Durant and Zion for his hometown team. But, AD is a fantastic leader for openly quitting on his team mid-season and consistently playing on a mediocre to losing team? Kyrie has been fantastic this year.

Troublemaker
02-05-2019, 05:56 PM
From the LA Times, the Lakers are pulling out of trade talks for AD (https://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-anthony-davis-trade-talks-20190205-story.html) because they've already made their best offer and are unwilling to add more assets:

"The Lakers had agreed to send their entire young core of Lonzo Ball, Kyle Kuzma, Brandon Ingram, Josh Hart and Ivica Zubac to the Pelicans, as well as veteran guard Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, those with knowledge of the situation said.

The Lakers also were willing to send two first-round draft picks, they said. Los Angeles also offered to give the Pelicans the salary-cap relief they wanted by acquiring Solomon Hill, who has another year left on his deal after this season for $12.7 million."


Yeah, the trade's not happening before the deadline if true. I'm not sure the Lakers can even add anything to that offer.

JNort
02-05-2019, 06:07 PM
From the LA Times, the Lakers are pulling out of trade talks for AD (https://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-anthony-davis-trade-talks-20190205-story.html) because they've already made their best offer and are unwilling to add more assets:

"The Lakers had agreed to send their entire young core of Lonzo Ball, Kyle Kuzma, Brandon Ingram, Josh Hart and Ivica Zubac to the Pelicans, as well as veteran guard Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, those with knowledge of the situation said.

The Lakers also were willing to send two first-round draft picks, they said. Los Angeles also offered to give the Pelicans the salary-cap relief they wanted by acquiring Solomon Hill, who has another year left on his deal after this season for $12.7 million."


Yeah, the trade's not happening before the deadline if true. I'm not sure the Lakers can even add anything to that offer.

That seems moronic to me. Only team that might could match or beat that would be the Celtics but they would be crazy to offer that much imo.

Troublemaker
02-05-2019, 06:16 PM
That seems moronic to me. Only team that might could match or beat that would be the Celtics but they would be crazy to offer that much imo.

I'd probably take the deal with the knowledge that I can always trade one or two of these young players if they don't fit my plans.

Unless Boston promised me Tatum+, I'd take the deal.

kAzE
02-05-2019, 06:22 PM
That seems moronic to me. Only team that might could match or beat that would be the Celtics but they would be crazy to offer that much imo.

Quantity doesn't always equal value. That's a lot of guys who will be asking for big pay raises in the next couple of years, and none of them are proven stars. I think Jayson Tatum (while admittedly also somewhat unproven) alone is worth more than just about all those guys (minus the draft picks) combined. The trade offer itself proves that a single star is worth almost any cost in this league.

CDu
02-05-2019, 06:36 PM
From the LA Times, the Lakers are pulling out of trade talks for AD (https://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-anthony-davis-trade-talks-20190205-story.html) because they've already made their best offer and are unwilling to add more assets:

"The Lakers had agreed to send their entire young core of Lonzo Ball, Kyle Kuzma, Brandon Ingram, Josh Hart and Ivica Zubac to the Pelicans, as well as veteran guard Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, those with knowledge of the situation said.

The Lakers also were willing to send two first-round draft picks, they said. Los Angeles also offered to give the Pelicans the salary-cap relief they wanted by acquiring Solomon Hill, who has another year left on his deal after this season for $12.7 million."


Yeah, the trade's not happening before the deadline if true. I'm not sure the Lakers can even add anything to that offer.

Wok is saying that this is a negotiating tactic by the Lakers. They are still quite interested in acquiring Davis but are trying to pressure New Orleans into presenting a counter proposal rather than bidding against themselves. Arguing that if New Orleans waits until the summer, their offer will decrease.

If so, then it becomes a question of how valuable those Boston picks will still be and how much of Boston’s young core they will offer.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-05-2019, 07:00 PM
I was really surprised Irving proclaimed he wanted to re-sign with the Celtics. Wouldn’t have done that if I was him.
.

I believe that statement is "no longer operative" - as they say (from the Nixon White House).

That, and the flat earth thing......

Duke79UNLV77
02-06-2019, 08:45 AM
Makes them the favorite to make the Finals from the East? Redick still fits in as a starter. He may not get quite as many shots, but I would think he’d be fine with that in exchange for a better shot at a title.

Billy Dat
02-06-2019, 09:06 AM
Makes them the favorite to make the Finals from the East? Redick still fits in as a starter. He may not get quite as many shots, but I would think he’d be fine with that in exchange for a better shot at a title.

Elton and the 76ers are swinging for the fences! They gave up a lot in this trade in terms of picks, and the players they gave up are good, too, but Harris is a really really good player. If they can get him integrated, stay healthy, and some of their primary opposition suffer meaningful injuries...

If you are a fan of going for it when you are in the window to go for it, this was a good move.

fraggler
02-06-2019, 09:08 AM
Makes them the favorite to make the Finals from the East? Redick still fits in as a starter. He may not get quite as many shots, but I would think he’d be fine with that in exchange for a better shot at a title.

Talent-wise, nobody is better in the East. But, how well can they integrate another big time scorer? Wasn't Embiid already annoyed with Butler? I suppose it will be a little easier since Harris is a good shooter.

On a side note, thank goodness they got Boban as well. It would have been heart breaking to separate him from Harris.

Billy Dat
02-06-2019, 09:16 AM
Oh yeah, FSU. I remember him now. He was pretty good during his one year of college.

I also had to look up Beasley and don't remember a thing about him from FSU, and it was only a couple of years ago. Similarly, I don't have any memory of Tobias Harris during his one year at Tennessee. I just goes to show that there are a ton of one-and-done guys who turn into good pros but don't really create lasting memories in college because they play for lower profile programs. I barely remember Steven Adams at Pitt, Dejounte Murray at Washington, etc. Of course, when you scan the last 6-7 years of drafts, there are a lot more one-and-dones who haven't stuck in the NBA...but that is true of every draft and every class.

JasonEvans
02-06-2019, 09:41 AM
Talent-wise, nobody is better in the East. But, how well can they integrate another big time scorer? Wasn't Embiid already annoyed with Butler? I suppose it will be a little easier since Harris is a good shooter.

Yeah, chemistry matters and the Sixers appear to have real chemistry issues. Worth noting that Harris and Butler are both unrestricted free agents this summer who do not have to stay in Philly. I'm puzzled as to why Elton gave up so much in terms of draft assets** for a guy who may not be with his team for more than a couple months. Even if the Sixers keep Butler and Harris, it is going to cost them dearly in terms of the cap. Butler is making $19 mil this season, he will need a raise into the $30+ mil max territory. Harris is making $14.8 mil and will also probably demand a raise that comes close to doubling his salary. Keeping those two guys is going to push the Sixers pretty far into the luxury tax.

The Sixers better make it to the NBA finals or Elton may look like a real sucker in this deal.

Oh, one more thing. I think this spells the end of JJ in Philly. Assuming they do sign Harris and Butler in the off-season, there is no way they will have space to also pay JJ, unless he is willing to take something like the veteran minimum, which would mean he was leaving something like $10+ mil on the table that he could get from someone else.

-Jason "**- the 2021 unprotected Miami Heat pick is included in the deal... it is not impossible to imagine that Miami is struggling in 2021, making that pick super valuable" Evans

nmduke2001
02-06-2019, 09:46 AM
Yeah, chemistry matters and the Sixers appear to have real chemistry issues. Worth noting that Harris and Butler are both unrestricted free agents this summer who do not have to stay in Philly. I'm puzzled as to why Elton gave up so much in terms of draft assets** for a guy who may not be with his team for more than a couple months. Even if the Sixers keep Butler and Harris, it is going to cost them dearly in terms of the cap. Butler is making $19 mil this season, he will need a raise into the $30+ mil max territory. Harris is making $14.8 mil and will also probably demand a raise that comes close to doubling his salary. Keeping those two guys is going to push the Sixers pretty far into the luxury tax.

The Sixers better make it to the NBA finals or Elton may look like a real sucker in this deal.

Oh, one more thing. I think this spells the end of JJ in Philly. Assuming they do sign Harris and Butler in the off-season, there is no way they will have space to also pay JJ, unless he is willing to take something like the veteran minimum, which would mean he was leaving something like $10+ mil on the table that he could get from someone else.

-Jason "**- the 2021 unprotected Miami Heat pick is included in the deal... it is not impossible to imagine that Miami is struggling in 2021, making that pick super valuable" Evans

That's ok, JJ can just join KD, Kyrie and Zion with Knicks....if everything possible goes exactly right for New York. With James Dolan at the helm, what could go wrong?

CDu
02-06-2019, 09:53 AM
Oh, one more thing. I think this spells the end of JJ in Philly. Assuming they do sign Harris and Butler in the off-season, there is no way they will have space to also pay JJ, unless he is willing to take something like the veteran minimum, which would mean he was leaving something like $10+ mil on the table that he could get from someone else.

As long as they are willing to pay the tax, they can keep Redick. They have cap holds for all 3 players this offseason and can sign all 3 over the cap. Redick doesn't have to lose money to stay in Philly unless Philly decides they don't want to spend. But given that they just went all in with this trade, I have trouble seeing them not being willing to keep an asset like Redick.

That being said, it's a really ballsy trade for the other reasons you pointed out: namely that there is no guarantee that either Butler or Harris stick around, and they gave up a TON to get Harris. It's a bold move, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off.

JasonEvans
02-06-2019, 10:10 AM
As long as they are willing to pay the tax, they can keep Redick. They have cap holds for all 3 players this offseason and can sign all 3 over the cap. Redick doesn't have to lose money to stay in Philly unless Philly decides they don't want to spend. But given that they just went all in with this trade, I have trouble seeing them not being willing to keep an asset like Redick.

Yeah, and I just realized the Sixers are in great shape in terms of the cap. I did not realize that they have zero bad contracts on their roster, something that is really rare in the modern NBA.

The Sixers will be right at $50 mil for players under contract in 2019-20 (Embiid, Fultz, Simmons, Zhaire Smith, and Jonah Bolden). Harris and Butler will both be eligible for max contracts of close to $33 mil in the off-season. Is Harris worth the max? I dunno, but I think he at least comes close to it and (due to the assets they gave up) the Sixers sorta have to keep him. So, that's another $65 mil in cap space and puts the Sixers at $115 mil. Let's say JJ gives them a reasonable hometown discount and signs for $10 mil, not a crazy number to assume for him, that would put them at $125 mil. They would still need to fill the roster with vets getting the minimum, but that would only add $6-8 mil more in salary. Heck, they wouldn't even be at the luxury tax yet.

-Jason "my bad in thinking the Sixers would have to give up JJ for cap reasons" Evans

CDu
02-06-2019, 10:22 AM
Yeah, and I just realized the Sixers are in great shape in terms of the cap. I did not realize that they have zero bad contracts on their roster, something that is really rare in the modern NBA.

The Sixers will be right at $50 mil for players under contract in 2019-20 (Embiid, Fultz, Simmons, Zhaire Smith, and Jonah Bolden). Harris and Butler will both be eligible for max contracts of close to $33 mil in the off-season. Is Harris worth the max? I dunno, but I think he at least comes close to it and (due to the assets they gave up) the Sixers sorta have to keep him. So, that's another $65 mil in cap space and puts the Sixers at $115 mil. Let's say JJ gives them a reasonable hometown discount and signs for $10 mil, not a crazy number to assume for him, that would put them at $125 mil. They would still need to fill the roster with vets getting the minimum, but that would only add $6-8 mil more in salary. Heck, they wouldn't even be at the luxury tax yet.

-Jason "my bad in thinking the Sixers would have to give up JJ for cap reasons" Evans

Well, barring more trades, they'll almost certainly be above the luxury tax. Assuming they sign Butler to the max and Harris to the max or close to it, that'd put them over $120MM (including empty roster spot holds) even ignoring the fact that they'll almost certainly keep Marjanovic ($10.5MM cap hold) and Reddick ($15.9MM cap hold). If they sign those two guys to even $15MM combined, that puts them over the tax line. Then, they'd likely add a taxpayer's exemption (the mini-MLE) and minimum salary guys.

But they won't be way over the tax line. And given that they are over the salary cap regardless, there is no reason to not sign Redick if he's willing to stay. They aren't going to find a guy who does what he does for the MLE, mini-MLE, or veteran's minimum.

Dukehk
02-06-2019, 10:33 AM
So let me get this straight. In less than half a year as the Philly GM, Mr. Elton Brand has acquired not one but TWO all-star calibre players to pair with Superstar Big man Joel Embiid and "the next Lebron" Ben Simmons?

All this without giving away any significant assets or future star players.

Impressive stuff. Obviously the crux will be whether he can keep Butler and Harris in Philly after this season, but if the chemistry clicks, they could be in the finals facing the Golden State Warriors.

CDu
02-06-2019, 10:36 AM
So let me get this straight. In less than half a year as the Philly GM, Mr. Elton Brand has acquired not one but TWO all-star calibre players to pair with Superstar Big man Joel Embiid and "the next Lebron" Ben Simmons?

All this without giving away any significant assets or future star players.

Impressive stuff. Obviously the crux will be whether he can keep Butler and Harris in Philly after this season, but if the chemistry clicks, they could be in the finals facing the Golden State Warriors.

Well, they did give away one potentially very significant future asset (the Miami 1st round pick) and other draft picks. And the risk is that both leave this summer and they are left with nothing. Especially since those picks they traded could vary in value substantially depending upon whether they themselves are good or not.

It's a bold roll of the dice, and could pay off big. But it could also prove VERY costly for them.

Troublemaker
02-06-2019, 10:37 AM
Yeah, chemistry matters and the Sixers appear to have real chemistry issues. Worth noting that Harris and Butler are both unrestricted free agents this summer who do not have to stay in Philly. I'm puzzled as to why Elton gave up so much in terms of draft assets** for a guy who may not be with his team for more than a couple months. Even if the Sixers keep Butler and Harris, it is going to cost them dearly in terms of the cap. Butler is making $19 mil this season, he will need a raise into the $30+ mil max territory. Harris is making $14.8 mil and will also probably demand a raise that comes close to doubling his salary. Keeping those two guys is going to push the Sixers pretty far into the luxury tax.

The Sixers better make it to the NBA finals or Elton may look like a real sucker in this deal.

Yeah, let's hope that Brett Brown still has final say on personnel decisions. When Elton was hired, it was unclear whether that was the case (philly.com) (https://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/elton-brand-sixers-76ers-gm-philadelphia-nba-20180918.html). The move reeks of the "win now at all costs" mentality that sometimes befalls a coach-GM hybrid. Ironically, the Clippers used to be the poster child for that with Doc Rivers as coach-GM, but ever since they took away personnel power from Doc, the Clips have been making much better decisions.

With Simmons at age 22 and Embiid at age 24, I don't know that I've liked Philly's series of moves (including the Butler trade) that have them going all-in on "win now."


Wok is saying that this is a negotiating tactic by the Lakers. They are still quite interested in acquiring Davis but are trying to pressure New Orleans into presenting a counter proposal rather than bidding against themselves. Arguing that if New Orleans waits until the summer, their offer will decrease.

If so, then it becomes a question of how valuable those Boston picks will still be and how much of Boston’s young core they will offer.

Yeah, I expect New Orleans will call that bluff as long as they believe they have a chance at Tatum.

Truth&Justise
02-06-2019, 10:42 AM
Well, they did give away one potentially very significant future asset (the Miami 1st round pick) and other draft picks. And the risk is that both leave this summer and they are left with nothing.

It's a bold roll of the dice, and could pay off big. But it could also prove VERY costly for them.

What a roller-coaster for Philly. None of this would be possible without the Process. And these moves are antithetical to the Process.

CDu
02-06-2019, 11:12 AM
Yeah, I expect New Orleans will call that bluff as long as they believe they have a chance at Tatum.

Sure. LA will try over the next 36 hours to convince New Orleans that Irving is going to leave this summer, in which case Boston wouldn't have interest in trading Tatum (and thus LA would have huge bargaining leverage). Either New Orleans will bite worrying about the dominos, or they will roll the dice and hope that Irving decides to stay in Boston and that Boston will offer up Tatum plus stuff. There is a nonzero chance that the best offer New Orleans will receive from anyone has already been made. Just a question of how much above zero LA can convince New Orleans the risk is.

It'll be an interesting next 36 hours for sure.

kAzE
02-06-2019, 11:57 AM
Sure. LA will try over the next 36 hours to convince New Orleans that Irving is going to leave this summer, in which case Boston wouldn't have interest in trading Tatum (and thus LA would have huge bargaining leverage). Either New Orleans will bite worrying about the dominos, or they will roll the dice and hope that Irving decides to stay in Boston and that Boston will offer up Tatum plus stuff. There is a nonzero chance that the best offer New Orleans will receive from anyone has already been made. Just a question of how much above zero LA can convince New Orleans the risk is.

It'll be an interesting next 36 hours for sure.

This probably doesn't come as a surprise to anyone, but LA is much more desperate than New Orleans right now. The trade situation is destroying both teams' morale, but the Pelicans don't care about not making the playoffs. In fact, they would happily tank the rest of the season.

The Lakers on the other hand, care very much about making the playoffs, and are about to see their playoff chances crater because every young player on their roster has become aware that they are expendable to LeBron and to the Lakers. Even after the deadline passes and nothing happens, this whole ordeal is probably a deathblow on LA for the rest of the regular season. It's reminiscent of the Lamar Odom situation years back when he was traded for Chris Paul, and then he wasn't. The psychological effect it had on him was devastating, and he was never the same player again that year.

CDu
02-06-2019, 12:03 PM
This probably doesn't come as a surprise to anyone, but LA is much more desperate than New Orleans right now. The trade situation is destroying both teams' morale, but the Pelicans don't care about not making the playoffs. In fact, they would happily tank the rest of the season.

The Lakers on the other hand, care very much about making the playoffs, and are about to see their playoff chances crater because every young player on their roster has become aware that they are expendable to LeBron and to the Lakers. Even after the deadline passes and nothing happens, this whole ordeal is probably a deathblow on LA for the rest of the regular season. It's reminiscent of the Lamar Odom situation years back when he was traded for Chris Paul, and then he wasn't. The psychological effect it had on him was devastating, and he was never the same player again that year.

Oh for sure. The only reason the Pelicans would trade Davis now is if they are convinced that the offer now is the best offer they will see from anyone. There is a nonzero chance that the Lakers' offer really IS the best offer they will get. But if the Lakers can't convince New Orleans that that nonzero chance is a substantially nonzero chance, then New Orleans will be quite happy to wait things out.

It basically boils down to a matter of how much uncertainty around Tatum's availability the Lakers can convince the Pelicans there is.