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JasonEvans
10-24-2018, 02:16 PM
John Swofford just announced this (https://pittsburghsportsnow.com/2018/10/24/acc-to-introduce-tip-off-event-20-game-mbb-schedule-in-2019/)at Operation Basketball. There will be mandatory conference games to tip-off the season and a 20 game schedule next year as the new ACC Network tries to draw as much attractive programming as it can.

On the tip-off games...


Of course, it’s not easy to schedule big games early in the season. Coaches want more time to get a feel for their teams and athletic directors that want to maximize ticket sales would probably rather wait until after football season.

So the solution Swofford and the ACC came up with was to take the decision out of their hands. Next year, all 15 ACC teams will start their season with a big-time matchup, with seven conference games, played in campus arenas, and one high-quality non-conference matchup. Surprisingly, the coaches seemed to have gone right along with the plan.
“They bought into the idea pretty readily, actually,” Swofford said.

JasonEvans
10-24-2018, 02:20 PM
https://www.roanoke.com/hokies/sports/mensbasketball/acc-men-s-basketball-teams-to-tip-off--/article_0ebdcd5b-7964-54f9-a099-3bbdef072a3a.html

Of note --


There are 15 ACC teams. So 14 of them will square off against an ACC opponent in their season openers in November 2019, with the odd team out playing a "very high profile" nonleague opponent instead, said Swofford.

I wonder how Duke's commitment to play in the Champion's Classic will mesh with this. Perhaps we are the 15th team with a "very high profile" opponent (KY, MSU, Kans).

mo.st.dukie
10-24-2018, 03:11 PM
Pretty cool that the ACC will be opening college basketball. I do think we are that odd 15th team. The question for Duke's schedule, in my mind, is whether we will drop the St. John's series and the annual MSG/NJ game or if we will drop two mid-majors from the schedule.

Kdogg
10-24-2018, 04:30 PM
Man I still don’t like December conference games so I don’t like this at all. It seems more like a way to manufacture content then to help teams. Plus won’t there be a huge time gap between the first and second conference games?

Now get off my lawn. 😀

JasonEvans
10-24-2018, 04:41 PM
Man I still don’t like December conference games so I don’t like this at all. It seems more like a way to manufacture content then to help teams. Plus won’t there be a huge time gap between the first and second conference games?

If we are going to 20 conference games, I could see one in November, one in early December, and then the rest of the sked starting in January.

BLPOG
10-24-2018, 05:05 PM
Man I still don’t like December conference games so I don’t like this at all. It seems more like a way to manufacture content then to help teams. Plus won’t there be a huge time gap between the first and second conference games?

Now get off my lawn. ��

Agreed.

I'd be happy with an early-season "non-conference" tournament (or tournaments) with conference teams à la the Dixie Classic. I don't like this change, though.

sagegrouse
10-24-2018, 05:07 PM
If you don't mind my opinion, I think conference and nonconference games should be spread more or less evenly throughout the season. That gives the tournament committee at least a chance to assess conference strengths. If all nonconference games are in Nov and Dec, there is no chance.

JasonEvans
10-24-2018, 05:56 PM
If you don't mind my opinion, I think conference and nonconference games should be spread more or less evenly throughout the season. That gives the tournament committee at least a chance to assess conference strengths. If all nonconference games are in Nov and Dec, there is no chance.

Yup. You wanna know what would be really cool? Every February, the NBA takes a one week break for the All-Star game (which is always played on a Sunday night). This week, it is from Feb 15-21. The NCAA and ESPN should be able to figure out some system of high profile matchups during that week to really highlight the best in college hoops and also get out of the rut of nothing but conference games.

Set up something like what they did with the Mid Major thing a few years ago where they told like 24 mid-major teams that they would be playing against each other later in the season but they did not set the matchups until the games got closer so they could matchup the best teams. You could easily pick 32 or 48 even 64 of the best teams in the land and give them one or two games against other teams during that special week. Give everyone 1 home game and one road game.

Naah, makes too much sense.

-Jason "I have this fantasy about a 16-team mini tournament that week among the best teams in the land with the winner automatically given a #1 seed in the NCAA tourney... but it might take some of the shine off the Big Dance so I guess that does not work" Evans

duketaylor
10-24-2018, 06:20 PM
Jason wrote:
"You wanna know what would be really cool? Every February, the NBA takes a one week break for the All-Star game (which is always played on a Sunday night). This week, it is from Feb 15-21. The NCAA and ESPN should be able to figure out some system of high profile matchups during that week to really highlight the best in college hoops and also get out of the rut of nothing but conference games."

I was thinking the same, but how do you fit that in your schedule? Just have a 7 day open window with a possible game or two? Makes logistics and fan travel nearly impossible, I think. I still like the idea if it could be made to work.

JasonEvans
10-24-2018, 06:28 PM
I was thinking the same, but how do you fit that in your schedule? Just have a 7 day open window with a possible game or two? Makes logistics and fan travel nearly impossible, I think. I still like the idea if it could be made to work.

All you do it pick the 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever teams who are going to play these games and have them leave that week blank on their schedule. You could set the matchups around Christmas or New Year's Day, far enough into the season to have a good idea which of these teams are going to be really good. That would give fans and teams 6+ weeks to make travel plans. Like I said, it would not be difficult to give every team 1 home and 1 road game, so the pre-season ticket sales would just be to an undetermined game against a significant non-conference opponent. This is too easy and too logical for the NCAA. Oh well.

duke2x
10-24-2018, 07:07 PM
If we are going to 20 conference games, I could see one in November, one in early December, and then the rest of the sked starting in January.

A 20 game schedule would have to start either December 25 or 28 under the current format. Something had to be done regardless of weeknight inventory on the ACC Network.

November 10-20. 0-1 ACC game.
November 20-30. Thanksgiving + ACC/B10. I don't see ESPN giving this up even though I'm tired of it.
December 1-10. 1-2 ACC games.
December 10-20. Exams.
December 20-30. Holidays and Bowls.

The ACC schedule is already heavily weighted toward after the NFL playoffs. This will make it worse.

The two games I think disappear off Duke's schedule are St. John's (if anyone else will play us in MSG) and the random semi-road game v. Elon or Davidson. The days of big non-conference games outside of Maui are done.

JetpackJesus
10-24-2018, 07:15 PM
A 20 game schedule would have to start either December 25 or 28 under the current format. Something had to be done regardless of weeknight inventory on the ACC Network.

November 10-20. 0-1 ACC game.
November 20-30. Thanksgiving + ACC/B10. I don't see ESPN giving this up even though I'm tired of it.
December 1-10. 1-2 ACC games.
December 10-20. Exams.
December 20-30. Holidays and Bowls.

The ACC schedule is already heavily weighted toward after the NFL playoffs. This will make it worse.

The two games I think disappear off Duke's schedule are St. John's (if anyone else will play us in MSG) and the random semi-road game v. Elon or Davidson. The days of big non-conference games outside of Maui are done.
Two thoughts:

(1) There's a team over in Chapel Hill that would have no problem playing December 10-20.

(2) Duke will still be getting a big non-conference game outside of preseason tournaments thanks to the Champions Classic (Duke has to be the one high-quality non-conference matchup).

OldPhiKap
10-24-2018, 07:35 PM
Unpopular opinion:

I don’t give a crap about basketball until football season ends or we are eliminated from bowl contention.

There, I said it.

duke2x
10-24-2018, 07:42 PM
Two thoughts:

(1) There's a team over in Chapel Hill that would have no problem playing December 10-20.

(2) Duke will still be getting a big non-conference game outside of preseason tournaments thanks to the Champions Classic (Duke has to be the one high-quality non-conference matchup).

I read this as promoting the ACC-N. ESPN isn't giving up a high profile Duke game. Many of our cupcake games that are on non-ESPN networks will get moved there, but ESPN is only going to give up a typical NFL playoff level Duke ACC game once or twice a year. I'm seeing something like Duke-Wake/BC/GT in Cameron almost annually.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-24-2018, 07:55 PM
Man I still don’t like December conference games so I don’t like this at all. It seems more like a way to manufacture content then to help teams. Plus won’t there be a huge time gap between the first and second conference games?

Now get off my lawn. 😀

GET OFF MINE TOO!!!....
Don't like this at all. I thought 18 conference games was too many. 20 is way too many. You get stale seeing the same teams all the time. Still not a round robin, so still not balanced. This is all about "content" to be sure. Gonna hurt in the long run. Duke will trade in some high profile national games to play BC or Clemson a second time.....whoopee....

Indoor66
10-24-2018, 08:17 PM
Unpopular opinion:

I don’t give a crap about basketball until football season ends or we are eliminated from bowl contention.

There, I said it.

Yeah, and kill Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, too.

CameronBornAndBred
10-24-2018, 08:31 PM
Unpopular opinion:

I don’t give a crap about basketball until football season ends or we are eliminated from bowl contention.

There, I said it.
"Must spread some comments around..."

BLPOG
10-24-2018, 08:37 PM
Unpopular opinion:

I don’t give a crap about basketball until football season ends or we are eliminated from bowl contention.

There, I said it.

I bite directly into string cheese rather than peeling it away.

OldPhiKap
10-24-2018, 08:37 PM
Yeah, and kill Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, too.

If I see them on my lawn . . . .

CameronBornAndBred
10-24-2018, 08:45 PM
Of course...could be an opportunity to bookend the whole season with the baby blues.

MarkD83
10-24-2018, 09:21 PM
Time to bring back the Big 4 tournament.

Duke v State
UNC v Wake

The winners play and the losers play...someone is 2-0 and someone is 0-2, but this time all of the games count as conference games!!

I would tell you to get off my lawn but you might trip over the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

DU82
10-24-2018, 09:24 PM
GET OFF MINE TOO!!!...
Don't like this at all. I thought 18 conference games was too many. 20 is way too many. You get stale seeing the same teams all the time. Still not a round robin, so still not balanced. This is all about "content" to be sure. Gonna hurt in the long run. Duke will trade in some high profile national games to play BC or Clemson a second time....whoopee...

What high profile national game will we trade? We’re keeping the Champions Classic (we extended out contract after the ACC decided to go to 20 games), the money’s too much to give up the annual NYC game, and the ACC/B1G challenge will continue and we’ll play in a Thanksgiving tournament that guarantees three or four games for the “price” of one. What we’ll give up are two games against the likes of Eastern Michigan or Stetson. Maybe the game against St. John’s goes away, but before last season, we didn’t have a game like that since about the time the schedule went to 18 conference games.

Yes, it’s about content, but the games we trade against Stetson ARE content, since the conference has the broadcast rights to begin with. So, no real change there for us.

CameronBornAndBred
10-24-2018, 09:40 PM
So I Googled this, and couldn't find anything definitive. If it were, I think it would be all over the local and national news sites. Is it actually set in stone?

This article makes it seem it is more of a an answer of optimism that Swafford is giving versus an announcement that it is definitely going to happen in 2019. Even the title says "possibility", and it is from accsports.com.

Q:Following up on the November conference games, do you envision every school playing one conference game? When would the games be played in November? Would they be more than just the opening game? Do you see games in December as well in order to get 20 into the schedule?
A:Yes, yes and yes. We’ve got 15 schools in basketball. So not everybody can necessarily play a conference game those opening couple of nights. So there will be one that plays a non-conference, very high-profile game that will fit right in in terms of the quality of the game to tip off the season.

https://accsports.com/acc-news/john-swofford-on-the-acc-network-possibility-of-expanding-to-20-acc-games/

msdukie
10-24-2018, 09:45 PM
The 20 game conference schedule was announced long ago to coincide with the start of the ACC ESPN Network (the women are going to 18 next year), not sure why this is news.

The only breaking news today was confirmation of the rumored for some time start of the the 19-20 season with 7 ACC games the first night to promote the new network. Could be a one time only thing. And Duke will be playing Kansas at that time per its Champions Classic contract....

uh_no
10-25-2018, 12:05 AM
Unpopular opinion:

I don’t give a crap about basketball until football season ends or we are eliminated from bowl contention.

There, I said it.

i love college basketball...but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. 20 league games is there. I'm all for getting rid of the slate of cupcakes, but playing league games in november is just silly, IMO. There are plenty of other good teams in the country to choose from.

Wander
10-25-2018, 02:45 AM
Unpopular opinion:

I don’t give a crap about basketball until football season ends or we are eliminated from bowl contention.

There, I said it.

I'll counter your unpopular opinion with my own unpopular opinion:

Schools should have no control over their own schedules.

College football and college basketball have, for the most part, failed at creating sensible, exciting, competitive schedules that take advantage of the great campus atmospheres. Except when forced to by conferences. There's no reason to have this crappy parade of infinity non-competitive games for the first two months of every season. In the non-conference, Duke should be playing at least two true road games against Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, Arizona, Gonzaga, Michigan State, or Villanova every single year, and at least two true home games against similar competition. The rest of the non-conference games can consist of an equal amount of home and road games against middle-to-low tier teams from other power conferences, and home and road games against teams from smaller conferences that are geographically close.

So, yes, I'm for this development and making the early schedule less lame.

CrazyNotCrazie
10-25-2018, 08:25 AM
I still think we should revert to the eight or nine team ACC with the balanced home and home schedule and the ACC Tournament in Greensboro every year, which coincides nicely with a football schedule where each team plays all of the other teams in the conference. But I am not holding my breath...

Indoor66
10-25-2018, 09:02 AM
Time to bring back the Big 4 tournament.

Duke v State
UNC v Wake

The winners play and the losers play...someone is 2-0 and someone is 0-2, but this time all of the games count as conference games!!

I would tell you to get off my lawn but you might trip over the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

Lol the last.

JasonEvans
10-25-2018, 10:34 AM
Duke's non-conf schedule this year and most years:


1 elite team in the Champions Classic
3 or 4 games against a (partially) strong field in a holiday tournament
1 top tier Big Ten team in the Challenge
1 made-for-TV game against a good opponent in MSG or some other "neutral" location
6 home games against lower-tier opponents
...we sometimes also play a nationally known opponent after conference season starts (St. John) but not always

I think we all can agree that 6 games against -meh- teams is too many. If that gets cut to 4 and we add a couple extra conference games, I have no problem with that. Also worth noting that every conference game added gets us closer to a true round robin. The more games you play, the more likely you are to find the true best team coning out on top. That has to be a good thing, right?

-Jason "I don't want all the cupcake games eliminated as every so often you get a cupcake who rises up and wins (Belmont and Wofford, we shall never forget ya!)" Evans

ChillinDuke
10-25-2018, 10:44 AM
Duke's non-conf schedule this year and most years:


1 elite team in the Champions Classic
3 or 4 games against a (partially) strong field in a holiday tournament
1 top tier Big Ten team in the Challenge
1 made-for-TV game against a good opponent in MSG or some other "neutral" location
6 home games against lower-tier opponents
...we sometimes also play a nationally known opponent after conference season starts (St. John) but not always

I think we all can agree that 6 games against -meh- teams is too many. If that gets cut to 4 and we add a couple extra conference games, I have no problem with that. Also worth noting that every conference game added gets us closer to a true round robin. The more games you play, the more likely you are to find the true best team coning out on top. That has to be a good thing, right?

-Jason "I don't want all the cupcake games eliminated as every so often you get a cupcake who rises up and wins (Belmont and Wofford, we shall never forget ya!)" Evans

I agree. If the swap is 2 cupcakes for 2 conference games, I'm in.

I agree that some cupcakes are still helpful, and I would argue even required. Every team has to earn it. It's not a right, it's a privilege, and all that. So what that means is it shouldn't just blanket be assumed that UNC, for example, is better than Wofford just because they are in the ACC. UNC has to beat Wofford, not be assumed to beat Wofford.

Like they have to go out on the court, and they have to defeat Wofford.

Should I talk more about UNC and Wofford? OK, OK, a more reasonable example.

Where does Wake Forest rank in the grander scheme? If they were not to play any "cupcakes" (understanding that a cupcake is traditionally a bit different for Duke than most other squads), it's hard to gauge where Wake falls in relation to the broader landscape. You need those crossover games, crossing over both against major conferences and minor conferences.

- Chillin

JasonEvans
10-25-2018, 11:06 AM
Where does Wake Forest rank in the grander scheme? If they were not to play any "cupcakes" (understanding that a cupcake is traditionally a bit different for Duke than most other squads), it's hard to gauge where Wake falls in relation to the broader landscape. You need those crossover games, crossing over both against major conferences and minor conferences.

Yeah, it is real easy for high and mighty Duke fans (with 30+ years of getting a Mickie Dee every season, a team that would be in shock if it was ranked outside the top 10 in the preseason) to cry and moan about not wanting those 6 easy wins against mid-majors and lower tier teams every season. But what about the Wakes, Ga Techs, Pitts, and so on? The ACC needs to leave some easy games in place of the bottom of the ACC could be looking at seasons where reaching even 6 or 8 wins is really difficult.

hallcity
10-25-2018, 11:59 AM
I think it was Nick Saban who said that when he coached in the NFL, he was only playing other NFL teams. I wonder if the P5 conferences shouldn't be moving away from what amounts to exhibition games against inferior competition. Make all the games meaningful.

JasonEvans
10-25-2018, 12:17 PM
I think it was Nick Saban who said that when he coached in the NFL, he was only playing other NFL teams. I wonder if the P5 conferences shouldn't be moving away from what amounts to exhibition games against inferior competition. Make all the games meaningful.

It sounds like you are advocating for an end to the current D1 setup. This has been discussed in recent years. Why do the ACC, SEC, B10, B12, and Pac 12 finance the operations of the MAAC, Big South, Summit, Big Sky and so on? A pretty good argument can be made that you should take the top 7 or 8 conferences and a few other schools -- about 100 teams in basketball -- and form you own division that has nothing to do with the rest of the sport. This essentially already happened in football with Div 1A and Div 1AA (now known as FBS and FCS for some reason). I think it could make sense in basketball though it would likely be a major financial drain on the schools that got left behind. You would probably also have to shrink the NCAA tourney to 32 or 48 teams if you did this.

Acymetric
10-25-2018, 12:22 PM
It sounds like you are advocating for an end to the current D1 setup. This has been discussed in recent years. Why do the ACC, SEC, B10, B12, and Pac 12 finance the operations of the MAAC, Big South, Summit, Big Sky and so on? A pretty good argument can be made that you should take the top 7 or 8 conferences and a few other schools -- about 100 teams in basketball -- and form you own division that has nothing to do with the rest of the sport. This essentially already happened in football with Div 1A and Div 1AA (now known as FBS and FCS for some reason). I think it could make sense in basketball though it would likely be a major financial drain on the schools that got left behind. You would probably also have to shrink the NCAA tourney to 32 or 48 teams if you did this.

I think this changes the aesthetics of the season and tournament enough that it harms the sport/league financially. The NCAA tournament will never get smaller, it might get bigger (ick), and the only way to do this requires making it significantly smaller. Not to mention less exciting, with the loss of the cinderella/underdog/little guy storylines.

Reddevil
10-25-2018, 12:57 PM
It sounds like you are advocating for an end to the current D1 setup. This has been discussed in recent years. Why do the ACC, SEC, B10, B12, and Pac 12 finance the operations of the MAAC, Big South, Summit, Big Sky and so on? A pretty good argument can be made that you should take the top 7 or 8 conferences and a few other schools -- about 100 teams in basketball -- and form you own division that has nothing to do with the rest of the sport. This essentially already happened in football with Div 1A and Div 1AA (now known as FBS and FCS for some reason). I think it could make sense in basketball though it would likely be a major financial drain on the schools that got left behind. You would probably also have to shrink the NCAA tourney to 32 or 48 teams if you did this.

.....oooorrrrrr, make it 96 teams where all are in the tournament with the top 32 getting a bye. I hate the idea, but it would not surprise me if something like this happens while I am still warm. BTW, I am against the aforementioned destruction of Santa and the Easter Bunny.........but the Tooth Fairy is fair game!

Yeah, I miss the 9 team conference as well. At least we got to have that era.

mo.st.dukie
10-25-2018, 01:38 PM
I think this changes the aesthetics of the season and tournament enough that it harms the sport/league financially. The NCAA tournament will never get smaller, it might get bigger (ick), and the only way to do this requires making it significantly smaller. Not to mention less exciting, with the loss of the cinderella/underdog/little guy storylines.

Could do a relegation/promotion system. Have the major conferences be the only ones eligible for the ncaa tournament but allow the mid majors to be promoted into the big leagues while the poor performing big league teams are relegated to the lesser conferences. Have a few points during the season for relegation and promotion and then in the offseason as well. The regular season would consist of the first half being set prior to the season with major conference teams only playing other major conference teams (which could include mid-majors who performed well the previous season and got promoted in the offseason). And the second half of the season would all be TBD and begin after the holiday break which would be another time for relegation and promotion.

jimsumner
10-25-2018, 02:25 PM
Time to bring back the Big 4 tournament.

Duke v State
UNC v Wake

The winners play and the losers play...someone is 2-0 and someone is 0-2, but this time all of the games count as conference games!!

I would tell you to get off my lawn but you might trip over the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

I don't see how this could possibly work.

Where would this be held? Somebody would be giving up a home game for a neutral game? Can't see that happening. And if you're going winners v. winners and losers v. losers in the second day, how do you schedule for that? Say Duke and Wake win and play the second game. Wouldn't they already have two conference games scheduled, home and home? Which one gets axed? How do you compensate season-ticket holders for the lost game? ESPN would have schedule holes to fill. Do not make ESPN unhappy.

Simply not practicable. IMO.

And for the record, I have been told that the ACC-Big 10 Challenge isn't going anywhere, at least not any time soon.

So, that's another game accounted for.

I suspect the schedules will get squeezed on both ends, fewer early-season "exempt" tournaments and fewer visits by the low-majors of the world.

Or we could go with Jay Bilas' suggestion and make college hoops a one-semester sport. May Madness, anyone?

hallcity
10-25-2018, 04:22 PM
I don't see how this could possibly work.

Where would this be held? Somebody would be giving up a home game for a neutral game? Can't see that happening. And if you're going winners v. winners and losers v. losers in the second day, how do you schedule for that? Say Duke and Wake win and play the second game. Wouldn't they already have two conference games scheduled, home and home? Which one gets axed? How do you compensate season-ticket holders for the lost game? ESPN would have schedule holes to fill. Do not make ESPN unhappy.

Simply not practicable. IMO.

And for the record, I have been told that the ACC-Big 10 Challenge isn't going anywhere, at least not any time soon.

So, that's another game accounted for.

I suspect the schedules will get squeezed on both ends, fewer early-season "exempt" tournaments and fewer visits by the low-majors of the world.

Or we could go with Jay Bilas' suggestion and make college hoops a one-semester sport. May Madness, anyone?

This isn't going to happen but when it was done before it was in Greensboro and they were non-conference games.

It's also won't happen but I'd like to see a challenge series with another conference, such as the SEC. We need to build up the overall strength of schedule for conference members.

-jk
10-25-2018, 06:34 PM
Could do a relegation/promotion system. Have the major conferences be the only ones eligible for the ncaa tournament but allow the mid majors to be promoted into the big leagues while the poor performing big league teams are relegated to the lesser conferences. Have a few points during the season for relegation and promotion and then in the offseason as well. The regular season would consist of the first half being set prior to the season with major conference teams only playing other major conference teams (which could include mid-majors who performed well the previous season and got promoted in the offseason). And the second half of the season would all be TBD and begin after the holiday break which would be another time for relegation and promotion.

I like it! Sort of like my ongoing proposal for the ACC to have two tiers with relegation (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?35355-The-validity-of-conference-tournaments&p=782786#post782786).

Each "major" conference could have a paired "lower" conference, and teams would move up/down or in/out every season. As my ACC relegation plan calls for, ESPN would insist on regular Duke-unc games - regardless of relegation - and lots of jockeying at the edges every year.

-jk