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indy1duke
10-22-2018, 08:32 AM
Does anyone know if there is television/steaming coverage? GoDuke.com says ACCN Extra has coverage, but I don’t see it listed in the upcoming events section of Watch ESPN.

UrinalCake
10-22-2018, 08:51 AM
Pretty sure both exhibition games are only covered by ESPN+

AGDukesky
10-22-2018, 08:53 AM
Pretty sure both exhibition games are only covered by ESPN+

So in other words...no

devildeac
10-22-2018, 09:21 AM
At least we're not playing another VA team in FB. :eek:

Bay Area Duke Fan
10-22-2018, 02:57 PM
Does anyone know if there is television/steaming coverage? GoDuke.com says ACCN Extra has coverage, but I don’t see it listed in the upcoming events section of Watch ESPN..

It’s now listed in ESPN ACCN Extra schedule.

UrinalCake
10-22-2018, 03:08 PM
C2C was also listed under ACCNE, but was only carried on ESPN+. I don’t even know what ACCNE is. Last season the ACCNE games were all shown on a combination of Fox, FS1, ESPN3, or theACC.com with no rhyme or reason to determine where I could find them.

Jim3k
10-22-2018, 07:33 PM
I don’t even know what ACCNE is.


I outgrew that condition in my late teens. Some lotions seemed to help. :rolleyes:

Jim3k
10-22-2018, 07:39 PM
So why does the schedule say 7 p.m., E.S.T.? We haven't given up Daylight Savings Time, yet--that's November 4.

arnie
10-23-2018, 07:03 AM
.

It’s now listed in ESPN ACCN Extra schedule.

Yes the button for the game shows up this way on the Watch Espn app and don’t see a reference to requiring ESPN+. I guess we won’t really know if available until the game is on? I’m not going to pay ESPN more $$$.

Indoor66
10-23-2018, 08:04 AM
C2C was also listed under ACCNE, but was only carried on ESPN+. I don’t even know what ACCNE is. Last season the ACCNE games were all shown on a combination of Fox, FS1, ESPN3, or theACC.com with no rhyme or reason to determine where I could find them.

I get the game on the WatchESPN APP on my phone - via my cable provider Xfinity.

lotusland
10-23-2018, 08:34 AM
C2C did not show up on my watch espn app but this game did. Hopefully that means I can watch. Kinda weird that I could watch late night with Roy,Big Blue Madness, Prime Time with the Pack, Tide Tip-off, Louisville Live all on regular espn but Duke was extra. I’m not sure who’s decision it was to try to bilk Duke fans but I’m glad I didn’t encourage them by paying up.

Troublemaker
10-23-2018, 09:40 AM
C2C did not show up on my watch espn app but this game did. Hopefully that means I can watch. Kinda weird that I could watch late night with Roy,Big Blue Madness, Prime Time with the Pack, Tide Tip-off, Louisville Live all on regular espn but Duke was extra. I’m not sure who’s decision it was to try to bilk Duke fans but I’m glad I didn’t encourage them by paying up.

My guess is Duke (although not sure I agree with "bilk"). Remember, prior to the relationship with ESPN, Duke fans also never got to watch CTC for free. You had to fork over like $5 (or was it $10?) to GoDuke.com for the pleasure and remember to cancel within a month. Stands to reason that for ESPN to get the rights to CTC, they had to put it under their pay service ESPN+ and cut Duke in on the money reaped.

mattman91
10-23-2018, 01:42 PM
Aren't the exhibition games usually on Saturdays?

HateCarolina
10-23-2018, 02:10 PM
If anyone has Xfinity 1 from Comcast then you can stream the game directly from the box. Just say "Duke basketball" into the voice remote and it will show up. The one annoying part is that you cannot record the game or pause it live although with the first exhibition game the only thing you might want to re-watch are Zion highlights which I am quite confident will show up on YouTube soon enough.

Go Blue Devils!!

Jfrosh
10-23-2018, 02:52 PM
You can get a 7 day free Trial for ESPN +. I did that for the Canada Tour. I just paid the $5 for one month to get CTC, the two preseason games and especially the Duke Basketball All Access behind the scenes shows they are putting out in early November. I sound like a commercial, but I've also been binge watching a lot of old 30 for 30's.

Billy Dat
10-23-2018, 05:28 PM
There is a Duke game to watch in less than 2 hours.....GET HYPE!!!!!!!

BLPOG
10-23-2018, 05:47 PM
There is a Duke game to watch in less than 2 hours....GET HYPE!!!!!!!

https://youtu.be/VnG0JjzF7HY

-jk
10-23-2018, 06:33 PM
DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open!

If it gets a bit slow, refresh the page. If you're on a mobile device, you'll need to select "Blue" at the bottom.

As always - please follow the DBR Posting Guidelines.

Let's Go Duke!

-jk

Troublemaker
10-23-2018, 06:36 PM
If you have ESPN+ (7-day free trial is possible), the link to stream the game on a computer is here:

http://www.espn.com/watch/player?bucketId=5060&id=3451842

Hopefully that will help some of you get situated.

mattman91
10-23-2018, 06:44 PM
Starting 5 per Steve Wisman on Twitter:


Duke starting 5 vs. Virginia Union: Tre Jones, R.J. Barrett, Cameron Reddish, Zion Williamson, Marques Bolden

arnie
10-23-2018, 07:02 PM
Starting 5 per Steve Wisman on Twitter:

It’s on watch espn, don’t need espn+

OZZIE4DUKE
10-23-2018, 07:04 PM
This is the smallest crowd I’ve seen in Cameron at game time since 1974.

AGDukesky
10-23-2018, 07:11 PM
Missing wide open 3s will be this teams biggest issue

AGDukesky
10-23-2018, 07:15 PM
Barrett on fire!

AGDukesky
10-23-2018, 07:22 PM
Love the energy and passing of these freshmen. Bolden playing as small as ever but coach is giving him minutes.

AGDukesky
10-23-2018, 07:28 PM
Good stretch from AOC and Reddish looking aggressive and scoring

WHOneedsSOX
10-23-2018, 07:28 PM
Love the energy and passing of these freshmen. Bolden playing as small as ever but coach is giving him minutes.

I just feel bad for Bolden. He's not athletic. His hands aren't that good. He can't finish. He really can't do anything out there other than be tall.

devildeac
10-23-2018, 07:32 PM
This is the smallest crowd I’ve seen in Cameron at game time since 1974.

Maybe the rest of the crowd is at home waiting for their season tickets to be delivered...

:rolleyes:

AGDukesky
10-23-2018, 07:37 PM
Bolden with 3 good rebounds in traffic. Zion with two great plays with a post up move and vicious alley-oop

kAzE
10-23-2018, 07:46 PM
Love the energy and passing of these freshmen. Bolden playing as small as ever but coach is giving him minutes.

Did anybody else see the play where their point guard was alone on a fast break, with Bolden the only guy back?

Why the world would the longest player in Duke history attempt to draw a charge (unsuccessfully), instead of just going up and swatting the dude?

The guy got a warm up layup, and Bolden looked like a complete fool, falling over with minimal contact . . .

Take a page from the Wendell Carter playbook, just go straight up with both hands high, Marques!!

nmduke2001
10-23-2018, 07:52 PM
The in game replays are the worst. I would like to see defense instead of offensive replays, thanks.

Transition defense is going to be an early season issue.

WHOneedsSOX
10-23-2018, 07:53 PM
The in game replays are the worst. I would like to see defense instead of offensive replays, thanks.

Transition defense is going to be an early season issue.
Hopefully it's not like that during the season. End up missing 5 seconds of the possession.

53n206
10-23-2018, 07:58 PM
Va Union playing well: hope they have good year. I like #1; I like #5;I lke #3;I like #s 2,4, 6, 7, etc.

subzero02
10-23-2018, 08:17 PM
Va Union playing well: hope they have good year. I like #1; I like #5;I lke #3;I like #s 2,4, 6, 7, etc.

I like what I've seen from Tre Jones so far.

fuse
10-23-2018, 08:45 PM
While I reserve the right to add to the list, perhaps my favorite thing about Zion Williamson is he is clearly cut from the same cloth as Shaquille O’Neal in being the biggest kid around.

I love the energy, the motor and the joy with which Zion plays.

Furniture
10-23-2018, 08:58 PM
Most anyone with any TV provider either cable or stream (sling or direct tv now) can watch the acc network for free using the ESPN 3 app either on your tv or iPad or computer. If you download the ESPN 3 app as you will login you will be asked for your tv provider. Then login with your tv provider pw.
Then Bobs your uncle.

kAzE
10-23-2018, 09:00 PM
This is a great passing team. 33 assists on 40 made field goals is incredible. Jones and Reddish with 9 apiece.

All 4 freshmen looked GREAT offensively, and they already look like they have great chemistry with each other.

dukelifer
10-23-2018, 09:15 PM
This is a great passing team. 33 assists on 40 made field goals is incredible. Jones and Reddish with 9 apiece.

All 4 freshmen looked GREAT offensively, and they already look like they have great chemistry with each other.
Team can pass- shooting is a work in progress. Team needs to get much better on D- much, much better. But overall this is a fun team to watch.

proelitedota
10-23-2018, 09:16 PM
It looked to me Zion couldn't keep in front of guards. He might have to guard centers and we need Delaurier in the lineup more often.

Oriole Way
10-23-2018, 09:26 PM
It looked to me Zion couldn't keep in front of guards. He might have to guard centers and we need Delaurier in the lineup more often.

DeLaurier at the 5 (or a lineup with no traditional Center/big) is going to be our go-to lineup. I'm willing to wager that Bolden is only going to be a matchup player for us this year.

The game is moving away from big men anyway. The Warriors/Celtics model of versatile "position-less" basketball is truly the new style of play in the NBA, and it's obvious that Coach K is molding this team in that way. Teams are going to have a hard time matching up with us with DeLaurier, three top 5 NBA draft pick wings, and Tre Jones more often than not.

WiJoe
10-23-2018, 09:43 PM
I'll admit my eyes are going, but sure saw a lot of fuzzy camera work. Score line also often out of focus.

Maybe they will put professionals on cameras and in production truck and let the people who worked tonight go back to elementary school.

-jk
10-23-2018, 10:34 PM
If he score line was out of focus, it was probably your stream. But it was definitely the B-team from a production standpoint.

I tried streaming on two different devices - my PC via hdmi into my AV setup and my iPhone via Apple TV into same AV setup.

The iPhone was much clearer (I probably needed to reboot and close a bunch of tabs on my pc; it streamed the games from Canada just fine...)

-jk

Furniture
10-23-2018, 11:01 PM
ESPN3 streaming was perfect.....

BandAlum83
10-23-2018, 11:50 PM
ESPN3 streaming was perfect....

My internet hit a few speed bumps in the second half, but really great quality picture otherwise.

Did anyone notice that the in-game replays all showed a BDN logo? Is that Blue Devils Network? I doubt the regular season will be doing that to us. It seems that it wasn't a regular ESPN Or ACCN crew doing the production.

BandAlum83
10-23-2018, 11:52 PM
So what's with the baby dolls in Duke paraphanalia? I first noticed during CTC.

Is there a story to go with this?

uh_no
10-24-2018, 12:13 AM
So what's with the baby dolls in Duke paraphanalia? I first noticed during CTC.

Is there a story to go with this?

I know someone who I think knows the story. The baby has been around for quite some time. Will ping him.

Kedsy
10-24-2018, 12:36 AM
I calculated advanced stats, but since nobody in this thread appeared to be talking about the actual game, I put the stats in the Phase 0 thread (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?42448-Phase-0-2018-19-season&p=1095312#post1095312).

Interesting that AOC only played 8 minutes (though he scored 10 points and 5 rebounds in those 8 minutes) and Javin only played 10 (though he had 3 rebounds and 3 blocks in his 10 minutes).

Tre had 9 assists and Cam had 7. Zion had 4 assists but also 4 turnovers. RJ had 3 assists to go with his 23 points (including 17 of Duke's first 22 points). Zion led the team with 29 points.

The legend of Jack White continues, as he had 11 points, 4 rebounds, and 3 steals in 19 minutes.

BlueDevil2K
10-24-2018, 12:49 AM
I know someone who I think knows the story. The baby has been around for quite some time. Will ping him.

I'm the someone...it's been around for quite some time and accompanies the "Oh Baby" cheer (think Dickie V-style) where someone holds up the baby on the "Baby" part. Here's a picture of it from before the 2014 Syracuse game, but it goes back a while before that. Not sure of the actual origins...

8744

Oh yeah...and that's me holding it. 😁

accfanfrom1970
10-24-2018, 01:37 AM
The view from the front row of bleachers wasn't fuzzy at all. Up close I believe this team will go as far as Tre and Barrett take us, understanding that most highlights will go to Zion. I don't think he made a shot outside 3 feet, and he had 29? So that's a strength. Reddish shot poorly in the first half, better in the 2nd. If he progresses as the year goes on he could be a force.

I still think we should go small with Jack and AOC as #5, but I don't see that happening. K will continue to alternate Bolden and Javin, but given a chance Antonio should take minutes from both. But he only played mop up time, last 5 minutes.

Jack and AOC played great in limited minutes, time will tell in real games. Barrett got in foul trouble or probably would have played more.

Fun game, not much to take away other than we can score, Tre is smooth, and Zion is a beast.

gep
10-24-2018, 03:16 AM
I watched the replay on ESPN3 (WatchESPN). Freshman looked good to me. But my comments on the broadcast...

1. As others have mentioned, the in-game replays were TOTALLY unnecessary. Watching a catch-and-shoot, or a catch-and-dunk, in slow motion was worthless. Most of all, it took away the live action.

2. This is the first time I noticed in any previous Duke games in Cameron, is that during time-outs or break in action, the camera view was from the opposite side of the regular in-game view. The "D" was upside-down. And the camera showed the bench side and the floor bleachers behind the benches. Earlier in the game, those bleachers behind VUU was essentially empty. Took a while to get used to that view.

I don't know if my observations apply to the live game stream. Otherwise, the game was great.

Clipsfan
10-24-2018, 07:34 AM
I watched the replay on ESPN3 (WatchESPN). Freshman looked good to me. But my comments on the broadcast...

1. As others have mentioned, the in-game replays were TOTALLY unnecessary. Watching a catch-and-shoot, or a catch-and-dunk, in slow motion was worthless. Most of all, it took away the live action.

2. This is the first time I noticed in any previous Duke games in Cameron, is that during time-outs or break in action, the camera view was from the opposite side of the regular in-game view. The "D" was upside-down. And the camera showed the bench side and the floor bleachers behind the benches. Earlier in the game, those bleachers behind VUU was essentially empty. Took a while to get used to that view.

I don't know if my observations apply to the live game stream. Otherwise, the game was great.

I also watched the replay on WatchESPN and commented to my wife on the reversal of the camera angle. I hope that's not going to continue as the crowd behind the benches is always much tamer, I like the energy the student side brings.

As many mentioned, the overall production values yesterday were poor, including somehow cutting away from the finish on a fast break one play. No idea how that happens but assume it will get better when the real season begins. I just take it as a bonus that I can watch the exhibition at all out here in Cali.

whereinthehellami
10-24-2018, 08:53 AM
I was surprised at how chill coach was during the game. There were a number of times where Duke gave up an uncontested layup and I was expecting a TO from coach to um teach the finer points of defense/effort. It seemed the camera was expecting it to as they panned to coach and he was just chill. Anyone else notice this?

DevilYouKnow
10-24-2018, 09:06 AM
I'm the someone...it's been around for quite some time and accompanies the "Oh Baby" cheer (think Dickie V-style) where someone holds up the baby on the "Baby" part. Here's a picture of it from before the 2014 Syracuse game, but it goes back a while before that. Not sure of the actual origins...

8744

Oh yeah...and that's me holding it. 😁

Every time I see that, I'm tempted to call Social Services to report a case of Shaken Baby Syndrome.

Duke79UNLV77
10-24-2018, 09:12 AM
Interesting that AOC only played 8 minutes (though he scored 10 points and 5 rebounds in those 8 minutes) and Javin only played 10 (though he had 3 rebounds and 3 blocks in his 10 minutes).

I wouldn't take too much away from that. K noted that O'C had not played very well in practice since returning from injury, but played well last night, so the game was a big step forward for him. K also noted that Javin is just returning from missing 2 1/2 weeks with his injury.

Billy Dat
10-24-2018, 09:24 AM
While I think his style is a little MUCH, I always like when Spatola is doing the color commentary because, as K's son-in-law, you know he has info that others don't. He said a few things last night that caught my attention.

-He thinks K's greatest strengths as a coach are building relationships and coaching man2man defense. As a result of the pivot to one-and-dones, Spatola said he can't do either as effectively as in the past. He countered by saying that coaching the top talent helps make up for it, but it was revealing that he shared that thought.
-He also mentioned that AOC had a tough time adjusting to balancing school and work last year, as did Jordan Goldwire.

As for the game, in addition to what has been said above, I add the following:
-I thought facing a zone was kind of awkward and, as a result, we settled for a lot of 3s. We weren't great about feeding the middle against the zone. When RJ was in that slot, he was not adept at clearing space and calling for the ball. It would have been cool to see Zion in that slot as he can carve space and is such an adept passer.
-Aside from Jones' adept running of the offense, he was really pesky guarding the perimeter. Once our guys get more used to getting in those passing lanes, I think our steals will go up.
-The defensive rebounding is definitely something to keep an eye on.
-Joey Baker off the bench before White or AOC...K said he had a good week of practice.
-As the game went on, I thought Marquese looked better and better. He was doing a good job of hedging on the pick-n-roll D, and his catching-and-finishing were better. He actually executed an alley-oop. I do agree with those that think Javin is the likely starter in the middle, but Marquese showed me a little something last night...far better than he was in Canada.
-The foul trouble definitely dimmed RJ after his hot start. Because I am not used to seeing them in Duke uniforms, I have a hard time distinguishing he and Cam.

budwom
10-24-2018, 09:33 AM
speaking of which (man to man). K says that's what this group will play. I sure agree with the assertions that K likes it, and it's tough to teach to OAD guys.
So either it gets simplified a bit, or we end up switching to a zone (which was pretty darn good last year)....in which case perhaps starting with a zone would have been better.
We'll see...

Billy Dat
10-24-2018, 09:51 AM
speaking of which (man to man). K says that's what this group will play. I sure agree with the assertions that K likes it, and it's tough to teach to OAD guys.
So either it gets simplified a bit, or we end up switching to a zone (which was pretty darn good last year)...in which case perhaps starting with a zone would have been better.
We'll see...

Spatola also kind of trashed last year's zone, not noting that it wound up a top 10 Ken Pom defense.

BandAlum83
10-24-2018, 10:36 AM
I'm the someone...it's been around for quite some time and accompanies the "Oh Baby" cheer (think Dickie V-style) where someone holds up the baby on the "Baby" part. Here's a picture of it from before the 2014 Syracuse game, but it goes back a while before that. Not sure of the actual origins...

8744

Oh yeah...and that's me holding it. 😁

Thanks for the info!

So is there only one baby that some House or Greek organization has, or does it get passed around? Or maybe there is more than one?

BandAlum83
10-24-2018, 10:45 AM
While I think his style is a little MUCH, I always like when Spatola is doing the color commentary because, as K's son-in-law, you know he has info that others don't. He said a few things last night that caught my attention.

-He thinks K's greatest strengths as a coach are building relationships and coaching man2man defense. As a result of the pivot to one-and-dones, Spatola said he can't do either as effectively as in the past. He countered by saying that coaching the top talent helps make up for it, but it was revealing that he shared that thought.
-He also mentioned that AOC had a tough time adjusting to balancing school and work last year, as did Jordan Goldwire.

As for the game, in addition to what has been said above, I add the following:
-I thought facing a zone was kind of awkward and, as a result, we settled for a lot of 3s. We weren't great about feeding the middle against the zone. When RJ was in that slot, he was not adept at clearing space and calling for the ball. It would have been cool to see Zion in that slot as he can carve space and is such an adept passer.
-Aside from Jones' adept running of the offense, he was really pesky guarding the perimeter. Once our guys get more used to getting in those passing lanes, I think our steals will go up.
-The defensive rebounding is definitely something to keep an eye on.
-Joey Baker off the bench before White or AOC...K said he had a good week of practice.
-As the game went on, I thought Marquese looked better and better. He was doing a good job of hedging on the pick-n-roll D, and his catching-and-finishing were better. He actually executed an alley-oop. I do agree with those that think Javin is the likely starter in the middle, but Marquese showed me a little something last night...far better than he was in Canada.
-The foul trouble definitely dimmed RJ after his hot start. Because I am not used to seeing them in Duke uniforms, I have a hard time distinguishing he and Cam.

There was a point during the game when we lined up for a free throw. I looked away, and in my periphery, I thought Grayson was standing above the key. The feed was pretty clear at the time. When I looked closer, I realized it was Joey Baker. It must have been the way he was standing, because he certainly isn't as bulked as Grayson was last year.

Indoor66
10-24-2018, 11:10 AM
There was a point during the game when we lined up for a free throw. I looked away, and in my periphery, I thought Grayson was standing above the key. The feed was pretty clear at the time. When I looked closer, I realized it was Joey Baker. It must have been the way he was standing, because he certainly isn't as bulked as Grayson was last year.

I had the same reaction. I thought I was looking at Grayson. I did a double-take.

kAzE
10-24-2018, 11:18 AM
I had the same reaction. I thought I was looking at Grayson. I did a double-take.

Maybe Joey is channeling the ghost of Grayson Allen.

I'd be okay with another seldom-used freshman stepping in and hitting a bunch of huge shots to win a national championship.

BandAlum83
10-24-2018, 11:20 AM
Maybe Joey is channeling the ghost of Grayson Allen.

I'd be okay with another seldom-used freshman stepping in and hitting a bunch of huge shots to win a national championship.

I'll admit that I thought the same thing, with the rejoinder that Joey can't redshirt!

jimsumner
10-24-2018, 11:26 AM
RE: the Baby

At one time the Bruce Channel classic "Hey Baby, Won't You Be My Girl," was a staple of the Pep Band. I believe the baby dolls were part of that.

hallcity
10-24-2018, 11:36 AM
RE: the Baby

At one time the Bruce Channel classic "Hey Baby, Won't You Be My Girl," was a staple of the Pep Band. I believe the baby dolls were part of that.

I really wish the Crazies would do the "Oh! Baby!" thing again. I don't know why that stopped even though the doll continues to be present. This team, especially Zion and R.J., will give us many "Oh! Baby!" moments this year.

BLPOG
10-24-2018, 11:40 AM
RE: the Baby

At one time the Bruce Channel classic "Hey Baby, Won't You Be My Girl," was a staple of the Pep Band. I believe the baby dolls were part of that.


I really wish the Crazies would do the "Oh! Baby!" thing again. I don't know why that stopped even though the doll continues to be present. This team, especially Zion and R.J., will give us many "Oh! Baby!" moments this year.

There was a drastic decline in the frequency of "Won't You be My Girl" while I was an undergraduate (class of '12). My freshmen year it was still played with regularity. I partially blame the "loss" of certain songs and chants on the replacement of the above-court scoreboard and the videos/music that accompany the new one.

There was a similar decline in the frequency of the "Oh! Baby!" chanting. For my part, I do it on my own whenever watching a game with other Blue Devils - whether in Cameron, another arena, or a bar. I don't know how anyone could not feel the impulse to do it after a monster jam or a sequence of clutch threes.

UrinalCake
10-24-2018, 12:15 PM
-He also mentioned that AOC had a tough time adjusting to balancing school and work last year, as did Jordan Goldwire.

That’s an interesting tidbit. A couple weeks ago someone reminded me that Alex and Goldwire had been suspended for one of the exhibition games last season, for the nebulous reason of violating team rules or something like that. Most fans suspected they had missed a class. I had totally forgotten about this until my friend brought it up, but this serves as a good reminder that classwork for the Duke players is a real thing and can’t be taken for granted. Unlike at some other schools who shall remain nameless.

BlueDevil2K
10-24-2018, 12:17 PM
Thanks for the info!

So is there only one baby that some House or Greek organization has, or does it get passed around? Or maybe there is more than one?

One baby...passed down through the line monitors...

MarkD83
10-24-2018, 12:40 PM
speaking of which (man to man). K says that's what this group will play. I sure agree with the assertions that K likes it, and it's tough to teach to OAD guys.
So either it gets simplified a bit, or we end up switching to a zone (which was pretty darn good last year)...in which case perhaps starting with a zone would have been better.
We'll see...

My unsupported view (which I hope folks do some digging on) is that Coach K knows that with the talent he has had over the past 3-4 years if the team plays zone he could win 26-28 games, finish top 4 in the ACC and make the Sweet 16.

However, if the team plays good man-to-man, the potential becomes > 30 wins, ACC championship and Final 4.

As proof I have one data point from last year, if Duke could play good man-to-man, the Kansas player would not have been open for the game tying 3 at the end of regulation and Duke would have made the Final 4.

So, in Coach K's mind the goals are > 30 wins, ACC championship and Final 4 which means they are playing man-to-man until proven that they can't.

budwom
10-24-2018, 12:56 PM
^ some good points, but I'd also say that without last year's zone (and the subsequent improvement) we wouldn't have gotten to the Kansas game. All very complicated.
Agree that good M2M has a higher ceiling, still very skeptical this group can achieve that.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-24-2018, 01:08 PM
My unsupported view (which I hope folks do some digging on) is that Coach K knows that with the talent he has had over the past 3-4 years if the team plays zone he could win 26-28 games, finish top 4 in the ACC and make the Sweet 16.

However, if the team plays good man-to-man, the potential becomes > 30 wins, ACC championship and Final 4.

As proof I have one data point from last year, if Duke could play good man-to-man, the Kansas player would not have been open for the game tying 3 at the end of regulation and Duke would have made the Final 4.

So, in Coach K's mind the goals are > 30 wins, ACC championship and Final 4 which means they are playing man-to-man until proven that they can't.

You are making assumptions without evidence, and trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Last year's team was a terrible MTM team, but a really good zone team. That's the only comparison you can make. A really good MTM team comparison is simply not applicable to last years team. If they had played Kansas MTM, game would've been over by halftime.

Troublemaker
10-24-2018, 01:27 PM
speaking of which (man to man). K says that's what this group will play. I sure agree with the assertions that K likes it, and it's tough to teach to OAD guys.
So either it gets simplified a bit, or we end up switching to a zone (which was pretty darn good last year)...in which case perhaps starting with a zone would have been better.
We'll see...

Starting with zone would've been a bad idea. Actions have consequences. First of all, it would've been a betrayal of the freshmen class, which would've led to poor or lukewarm offseason reviews of the Duke program from them and/or their parents. I don't think recruiting could've survived another summer of chirping similar to what the Carters, Trents, and Duvals gave us this past offseason WRT their dissatisfaction with Bagley being the centerpiece. Secondly, once high school prospects realize Duke is now a zone-first program, our recruiting probably has a ceiling that tops out at Syracuse level. Which is fine. They're clearly a top-20 program but Duke has aspired to even greater heights ever since a certain Polish coach signed on 40 years ago.

Lastly, most importantly, I just think this team will be a good m2m team.

jimsumner
10-24-2018, 01:37 PM
I think Tre Jones is the key to this year's m2m defense. If he can apply consistent pressure on the opposing point guards, then Duke is well ahead of the last two teams.

Kedsy
10-24-2018, 02:44 PM
I think Tre Jones is the key to this year's m2m defense. If he can apply consistent pressure on the opposing point guards, then Duke is well ahead of the last two teams.

Probably last seven teams.

jimsumner
10-24-2018, 02:59 PM
Probably last seven teams.

Derryck Thornton was a pretty good on-the-ball defender. But the rest of his game relative to his teammates wasn't as good as Tre Jones' game relative to his teammates, so he didn't get as much PT as Jones projects to get.

accfanfrom1970
10-24-2018, 03:13 PM
I think Tre Jones is the key to this year's m2m defense. If he can apply consistent pressure on the opposing point guards, then Duke is well ahead of the last two teams.

I agree, and watching last nights game only reinforced it in my mind. He applied constant pressure.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-24-2018, 03:24 PM
I think Tre Jones is the key to this year's m2m defense. If he can apply consistent pressure on the opposing point guards, then Duke is well ahead of the last two teams.

I agree with that, it's so important for the D that Coach K likes to play.....and he'll be key on the O as well...distribution, settling thing down when needed....all those things will be important with so many frosh in key roles.

rsvman
10-24-2018, 04:38 PM
If Tricky hadn't gone for the steal the Kansas player wouldn't have had a wide-open three and we would have made the final four (maybe, had the shot missed).

rsvman
10-24-2018, 04:40 PM
My unsupported view (which I hope folks do some digging on) is that Coach K knows that with the talent he has had over the past 3-4 years if the team plays zone he could win 26-28 games, finish top 4 in the ACC and make the Sweet 16.

However, if the team plays good man-to-man, the potential becomes > 30 wins, ACC championship and Final 4.

As proof I have one data point from last year, if Duke could play good man-to-man, the Kansas player would not have been open for the game tying 3 at the end of regulation and Duke would have made the Final 4.

So, in Coach K's mind the goals are > 30 wins, ACC championship and Final 4 which means they are playing man-to-man until proven that they can't.

Or they have a smaller total win number in exchange for a higher ceiling, because they are likely to lose a few games while trying to figure out how to play effective man to man.

DukieInBrasil
10-24-2018, 05:13 PM
My unsupported view (which I hope folks do some digging on) is that Coach K knows that with the talent he has had over the past 3-4 years if the team plays zone he could win 26-28 games, finish top 4 in the ACC and make the Sweet 16.
However, if the team plays good man-to-man, the potential becomes > 30 wins, ACC championship and Final 4.
As proof I have one data point from last year, if Duke could play good man-to-man, the Kansas player would not have been open for the game tying 3 at the end of regulation and Duke would have made the Final 4.
So, in Coach K's mind the goals are > 30 wins, ACC championship and Final 4 which means they are playing man-to-man until proven that they can't.

Alternate proof: if Grayson's layup hadn't just barely rolled off the rim at the end of regulation, Duke would have won and we wouldn't be arguing about M2M vs. zone.


If Tricky hadn't gone for the steal the Kansas player wouldn't have had a wide-open three and we would have made the final four (maybe, had the shot missed).

i kinda hate that nickname, i know that it came with him to Duke, but meh. He didn't really do enough to earn a nickname in my book. He was a good player whose skillset was not maximized withe rest of the players around him. I also don't like that he very clearly came to Duke for just one year, regardless of his performance, and his performance was not good enough to garner serious attention by the league he wants to play in. Maybe he'll be able to change that with his play in the G-league. Best of luck to Trevon.

MarkD83
10-24-2018, 05:23 PM
Alternative proof. All 5 Duke national championship teams figured out how to play good man to man by the end of the year

Nugget
10-24-2018, 05:53 PM
^ some good points, but I'd also say that without last year's zone (and the subsequent improvement) we wouldn't have gotten to the Kansas game. All very complicated.
Agree that good M2M has a higher ceiling, still very skeptical this group can achieve that.

I'm not sure I 100% accept the proposition that it is not possible for teams led by a significant number of OAD players to be good at M2M defense. According to Ken Pom, during its OAD era (i.e., since 2009-2010), Kentucky -- which plays M2M -- has averaged an Adjusted Defensive Efficiency ranking of #24. And, if one takes out 2012-2013, when their defense fell apart to a ranking of #88 after Noel got injured and also takes out 2014-2015, when they were the #1 defense but had an inordinate number of returnees along with their OADs, Kentucky's average defensive efficiency ranking with the other 7 teams that were all OAD-dominated is #18.

Maybe there is something about Calipari's defensive scheme that makes it easier for his freshmen to pick up and play solid M2M than ours -- that an emphasis on shot-blocking rather than over-playing the wings/ball denial, results in the need for less help/less talking/less of the coordinated team play that takes time to develop in a traditional "Tommy Amaker (Billy King, Chris Carrawell, etc.) poured the beer" Coach K Duke defense"?

Or, perhaps it's as simple as Jim Sumner's point that anyone's M2M is going to look better when you have a PG who doesn't get torched off the dribble constantly.

DU82
10-24-2018, 06:59 PM
I'll admit that I thought the same thing, with the rejoinder that Joey can't redshirt!

Yes he can, right now. Freshmen are allowed to play in exhibitions without risking their redshirts.

That said, I don’t think he’ll stay five years, so I doubt he will redshirt.

BandAlum83
10-24-2018, 07:02 PM
Yes he can, right now. Freshmen are allowed to play in exhibitions without risking their redshirts.

That said, I don’t think he’ll stay five years, so I doubt he will redshirt.

I meant "Joey can't redshirt" as in we need him to be the seldom used freshman bench warmer who comes in During the final and turns everything upside down and sparks us to a natty!

I especially thought of that as he looked for a moment like Grayson.

Kedsy
10-24-2018, 10:03 PM
Alternative proof. All 5 Duke national championship teams figured out how to play good man to man by the end of the year

Alternate alternate proof: 32 Coach K Duke teams that played m2m exclusively (or pretty close to it) failed to win the national championship. (And every Coach K Duke team that played primarily zone made the Elite Eight or better.)

BLPOG
10-25-2018, 06:30 AM
I sometimes find myself in need of "alternative proof."

8749

QED

MarkD83
10-25-2018, 07:11 AM
Alternate alternate proof: 32 Coach K Duke teams that played m2m exclusively (or pretty close to it) failed to win the national championship. (And every Coach K Duke team that played primarily zone made the Elite Eight or better.)

And if they had played GOOD man to man Duke would have 32 more National Championships (one can dream) :)

The point is Coach K has had the ultimate success with man to man just as Jim Boeheim has had the utlimate success with zone. So these defenses are in their DNA.

If you are a Syracuse fan hoping that Jim Boeheim starts the season playing man to man or a Duke fan hoping Coach K starts the season playing zone then you may need the "alternative proof" that BLPOG was referencing.

Kedsy
10-25-2018, 10:20 AM
And if they had played GOOD man to man Duke would have 32 more National Championships (one can dream) :)

The point is Coach K has had the ultimate success with man to man just as Jim Boeheim has had the utlimate success with zone. So these defenses are in their DNA.

If you are a Syracuse fan hoping that Jim Boeheim starts the season playing man to man or a Duke fan hoping Coach K starts the season playing zone then you may need the "alternative proof" that BLPOG was referencing.

My point was each team should play whatever defense makes them most effective. I don't know how long it takes to realize a team isn't most effective in a certain defensive scheme, but I do know sticking to m2m because it's in K's "DNA" or because it worked before doesn't sound like the best strategy.

With Boeheim, he recruits kids who he thinks are built to be effective in his zone. K doesn't seem to recruit kids based on whether they can play his version of m2m, so I believe he has to make a year-to-year determination as to which defense is best for each year's team.

MarkD83
10-25-2018, 02:36 PM
My point was each team should play whatever defense makes them most effective. I don't know how long it takes to realize a team isn't most effective in a certain defensive scheme, but I do know sticking to m2m because it's in K's "DNA" or because it worked before doesn't sound like the best strategy.

With Boeheim, he recruits kids who he thinks are built to be effective in his zone. K doesn't seem to recruit kids based on whether they can play his version of m2m, so I believe he has to make a year-to-year determination as to which defense is best for each year's team.

You do bring up some interesting points that I can agree with...and also a few new questions...

Do coaches put more emphasis on how a recruit plays offense or defense when they are recruited? Most of the discussion about recruits is about their offensive skills.

So when a coach looks at defensive skills do you look for players with long wing spans and quick lateral motion... that seems to fit both zone and man to man.

One other interesting thought is the topic that Ky's man to man may be easier to learn because it emphasizes shot blocking near the rim. Isn't this a zone principle... keep bodies in the paint to defend the rim.

Oh well we will never know how coaches think about this because it would give away their secrets...on to the Ferris State game for me.