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hsheffield
10-15-2018, 07:01 PM
Self accuses Duke and UNC of paying players:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/texts-between-kansas-coach-bill-self-and-ex-adidas-rep-show-how-high-level-college-basketball-recruiting-works/


K and Roy beg to differ:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/amid-college-hoops-corruption-trial-dukes-coach-k-says-sport-actually-pretty-clean/

brevity
10-15-2018, 07:27 PM
It’s like that old saying: when the Kansas coach points one finger at others, he also has three fingers pointing back at Bill Self.

WVDUKEFAN
10-15-2018, 07:31 PM
It’s like that old saying: when the Kansas coach points one finger at others, he also has three fingers pointing back at Bill Self.

Well stated.

OldPhiKap
10-15-2018, 07:32 PM
K and Roy beg to differ:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/amid-college-hoops-corruption-trial-dukes-coach-k-says-sport-actually-pretty-clean/

The article refers to Roy as “Smith” if I am reading it right.


Krzyzewski's comment come just days after fellow ACC foe and fellow Hall of Famer, Roy Williams, offered up a similar sentiment about the corruption in the sport.

"It's a massive thing that's still going on, and I'm just dumbfounded," Smith said on Tuesday. "I had somebody criticize me and say 'you shouldn't be dumbfounded.' Well, excuse me, I have my right to have my own feelings. That world that they're explaining out there I'm not familiar with. Period. In 30 years as a head coach I have never had anyone ask me for money. I have never asked any shoe company to recruit for me. I have never asked anyone other than the family what is most important to you.

"So that world, people act like it goes on all the time, it does not go on all the time. It is a world I'm not familiar with."


Roy, you’re no Dean Smith.

UrinalCake
10-15-2018, 08:25 PM
It’s hard to know whether he is specifically referring to Duke and UNC, or just using them more generally as an example of top schools, to say that this happens everywhere. Regardless, I dont believe he has any actual proof that this happens at either Duke or UNC.

hsheffield
10-15-2018, 08:33 PM
It’s hard to know whether he is specifically referring to Duke and UNC, or just using them more generally as an example of top schools, to say that this happens everywhere. Regardless, I dont believe he has any actual proof that this happens at either Duke or UNC.

yes, I agree. unfortunately, the Kyle Boone article implied Duke/UNC guilt even though he didn't come right out and say it.

sagegrouse
10-15-2018, 08:41 PM
yes, I agree. unfortunately, the Kyle Boone article implied Duke/UNC guilt even though he didn't come right out and say it.

I don't mean to be thick, but what the heck do Self's actual words mean?


"In my mind, it's KU, Bill Self. Everyone else fall into line. Too (expletive) bad," Gassnola replied. "That's what's right for Adidas basketball. And I know I'm right. The more you have lottery picks and you happy. That's how it should work in my mind."

"That's how ur (sic) works. At UNC and Duke," Self replied.

Gassnola answered by saying Kentucky as well.

"That's how ur works. At UNC and Duke" Hunh???

ChrisP
10-15-2018, 08:47 PM
I don't mean to be thick, but what the heck do Self's actual words mean?



"That's how ur works. At UNC and Duke" Hunh???

Whew, glad that I'm not the only one who doesn't get this. But then again, I'm VERY literal. I've thought about Self's words a lot and....it just doesn't make sense. For one thing, aren't BOTH UNC and Duke Nike schools? So how would Self know what goes on? Not that anything did go on but...still. The meaning of this quote certainly isn't obvious to me.

SlapTheFloor
10-15-2018, 09:16 PM
Whew, glad that I'm not the only one who doesn't get this. But then again, I'm VERY literal. I've thought about Self's words a lot and...it just doesn't make sense. For one thing, aren't BOTH UNC and Duke Nike schools? So how would Self know what goes on? Not that anything did go on but...still. The meaning of this quote certainly isn't obvious to me.

I'm assuming "ur" is supposed to be "it". The letters are right next to each other on the keyboard. The period was obviously inadvertent. I don't blame him for not proofreading. He's a busy man. He has bribes and baseless accusations to make.

elvis14
10-15-2018, 09:23 PM
It really makes me sick when people lump Duke with UNCheat. The Cheaters are the worst of the worse, cheating for decades and buying their way out of it. Duke runs a pretty clean program. Disgusting when people make that false equivalency. Same with Coach K and that Roy the Cheat.

Billy Dat
10-15-2018, 09:41 PM
First off, a text with Bill Self pointing the finger at Duke/UNC is a big development. All this dirty laundry that for years has gone largely unsaid in official settings is getting said.

We know that most top prospects wind up at schools who have the same sneaker contract as their AAU league and team. Duke/UNC/Kentucky get Nike kids, Kansas/Louisville get Adidas kids, etc. The kids and their families are actually allowed to accept support from the sneaker companies. I think we can be as close to assured as we can be that kids who have gone to Duke had people around them, either family or associates, who received money from Nike runners. It has to have happened. That doesn't mean that there was an explicit quid-pro-quo to accept Duke scholarships. I am guessing that, with all the great Nike schools, it is OK if they go to any Nike school.

What this trial is providing courtroom evidence of is people associated with sneaker companies are actively strategizing with college coaches to deliver players to their programs. Bill Self is doing it, he swears up and down that Duke and UNC do it to, and in that some conversation, his Adidas runner is saying it's also Kentucky. The implication is that there are kids who are told to go to Duke, are paid to do so, and that Duke coaches are involved in that process.

It's impossible for any of us to say that this isn't true with 100% certainty...we can't know for sure. I have always believed that the general public is so hungry to see Duke identified as part of such rule-breaking that the story would have come out by now. Illuminati conspiracy theorists would say that the NCAA/CBS/ESPN squash those stories because s squeaky clean Duke is the last hope to wash over the corruption in the sport.

Interesting times...

dukelifer
10-15-2018, 10:54 PM
First off, a text with Bill Self pointing the finger at Duke/UNC is a big development. All this dirty laundry that for years has gone largely unsaid in official settings is getting said.

We know that most top prospects wind up at schools who have the same sneaker contract as their AAU league and team. Duke/UNC/Kentucky get Nike kids, Kansas/Louisville get Adidas kids, etc. The kids and their families are actually allowed to accept support from the sneaker companies. I think we can be as close to assured as we can be that kids who have gone to Duke had people around them, either family or associates, who received money from Nike runners. It has to have happened. That doesn't mean that there was an explicit quid-pro-quo to accept Duke scholarships. I am guessing that, with all the great Nike schools, it is OK if they go to any Nike school.

What this trial is providing courtroom evidence of is people associated with sneaker companies are actively strategizing with college coaches to deliver players to their programs. Bill Self is doing it, he swears up and down that Duke and UNC do it to, and in that some conversation, his Adidas runner is saying it's also Kentucky. The implication is that there are kids who are told to go to Duke, are paid to do so, and that Duke coaches are involved in that process.

It's impossible for any of us to say that this isn't true with 100% certainty...we can't know for sure. I have always believed that the general public is so hungry to see Duke identified as part of such rule-breaking that the story would have come out by now. Illuminati conspiracy theorists would say that the NCAA/CBS/ESPN squash those stories because s squeaky clean Duke is the last hope to wash over the corruption in the sport.

Interesting times...

Coach K struggled with his answer on this. We shall see what develops.

golfinesquire
10-15-2018, 11:32 PM
First off, a text with Bill Self pointing the finger at Duke/UNC is a big development. All this dirty laundry that for years has gone largely unsaid in official settings is getting said.

We know that most top prospects wind up at schools who have the same sneaker contract as their AAU league and team. Duke/UNC/Kentucky get Nike kids, Kansas/Louisville get Adidas kids, etc. The kids and their families are actually allowed to accept support from the sneaker companies. I think we can be as close to assured as we can be that kids who have gone to Duke had people around them, either family or associates, who received money from Nike runners. It has to have happened. That doesn't mean that there was an explicit quid-pro-quo to accept Duke scholarships. I am guessing that, with all the great Nike schools, it is OK if they go to any Nike school.

What this trial is providing courtroom evidence of is people associated with sneaker companies are actively strategizing with college coaches to deliver players to their programs. Bill Self is doing it, he swears up and down that Duke and UNC do it to, and in that some conversation, his Adidas runner is saying it's also Kentucky. The implication is that there are kids who are told to go to Duke, are paid to do so, and that Duke coaches are involved in that process.

It's impossible for any of us to say that this isn't true with 100% certainty...we can't know for sure. I have always believed that the general public is so hungry to see Duke identified as part of such rule-breaking that the story would have come out by now. Illuminati conspiracy theorists would say that the NCAA/CBS/ESPN squash those stories because s squeaky clean Duke is the last hope to wash over the corruption in the sport.

Interesting times...

From this thread, all I saw was one tweet that seemed to be speculation. I hardly see him swearing up and down. Is there something else out there?

Scorp4me
10-16-2018, 02:26 AM
First off, a text with Bill Self pointing the finger at Duke/UNC is a big development. All this dirty laundry that for years has gone largely unsaid in official settings is getting said.

We know that most top prospects wind up at schools who have the same sneaker contract as their AAU league and team. Duke/UNC/Kentucky get Nike kids, Kansas/Louisville get Adidas kids, etc. The kids and their families are actually allowed to accept support from the sneaker companies. I think we can be as close to assured as we can be that kids who have gone to Duke had people around them, either family or associates, who received money from Nike runners. It has to have happened. That doesn't mean that there was an explicit quid-pro-quo to accept Duke scholarships. I am guessing that, with all the great Nike schools, it is OK if they go to any Nike school.

What this trial is providing courtroom evidence of is people associated with sneaker companies are actively strategizing with college coaches to deliver players to their programs. Bill Self is doing it, he swears up and down that Duke and UNC do it to, and in that some conversation, his Adidas runner is saying it's also Kentucky. The implication is that there are kids who are told to go to Duke, are paid to do so, and that Duke coaches are involved in that process.

It's impossible for any of us to say that this isn't true with 100% certainty...we can't know for sure. I have always believed that the general public is so hungry to see Duke identified as part of such rule-breaking that the story would have come out by now. Illuminati conspiracy theorists would say that the NCAA/CBS/ESPN squash those stories because s squeaky clean Duke is the last hope to wash over the corruption in the sport.

Interesting times...

An accusation has been made so...Duke is guilty right?

#tonguefirmlyplantedincheek

Billy Dat
10-16-2018, 06:22 AM
An accusation has been made so...Duke is guilty right?

#tonguefirmlyplantedincheek

Definitely not, and I am firmly in the camp that says if Duke were really dirty, it would be out there because that’s a heck of a story for any media outlet to break, but I think we need to be realistic about how big cillege hoops operates. I mean, K has a building named for him on the Nike campus. I am not saying that means Nike runners coordinated witn Duke staffers to funnel money to prospects to go to Duke, but I think it is equally ridiculous to think the shoe companies have no influence over who winds up on which team.

This trial doesn’t touch, as far as I know, the payola happening via agents and money managers, which many say is at a level beyond what happens with the sneaker companies.

Billy Dat
10-16-2018, 06:41 AM
From this thread, all I saw was one tweet that seemed to be speculation. I hardly see him swearing up and down. Is there something else out there?

Correct, I went a too far in my descriptive language. But, I do think it is noteworthy that Self implicated Duke and UNC. Of course, why a coach at his level is communicating via text about such sensitive issues is beyond me. There was a reason that Paulie in Goodfellas never talked on the phone. Maybe, knowing that he was doing something stupid, Self throws Duke and UNC into that text so that if this day ever came, the story would sprawl. Personally, I don't think he's that clever.

madscavenger
10-16-2018, 06:53 AM
When Roy was at Kansas he said, " I don't give a sh*t about North Carolina." Now Cheater-in-Chief, he gives a sh*t about Kansas? One man's horsesh*t is another man's, well, horsesh*t. And everyone knows that Roys da man.

fuse
10-16-2018, 06:54 AM
I’m not alleging there is or is not this situation at Duke.

If it comes out that Duke and K have been cheating, that will be it for me for sport.

I’ll just slink back to Ymm, Beer and dream of something (anything) pure.

devildeac
10-16-2018, 07:29 AM
I’m not alleging there is or is not this situation at Duke.

If it comes out that Duke and K have been cheating, that will be it for me for sport.

I’ll just slink back to Ymm, Beer and dream of something (anything) pure.

Hey, it's not *that* bad on that thread.

:o:rolleyes:

Duke76
10-16-2018, 07:38 AM
Coach K struggled with his answer on this. We shall see what develops.

In what way did Coach K struggle with his answer? Don't see it.

JasonEvans
10-16-2018, 08:22 AM
There are allegations and innuendo and then there is evidence. What happened yesterday in court was evidence that Bill Self (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24990651/texts-show-kansas-coaches-knew-adidas-role-silvio-de-sousa-recruitment) was working with an Adidas bag man to bring recruits to Kansas. That is fairly clear. Everything else is Bill Self saying, "everybody else does it," which is a pretty #!^!^@^ way of defending your own morality.

I need to see some evidence before I am going to convict anyone... especially someone with a sterling reputation like Coach K.

lotusland
10-16-2018, 08:40 AM
I’d be shocked if Nike didn’t pay up. The key is whether Duke and/or UNCheat coaches got involved in facilitating payments. There are a lot of potential pitfalls though. If you’re recruiting a kid and you hear suspicious comments or rumors but don’t back off recruiting him are you complicit? Assistant coaches under pressure to win recruiting battles or who have head coaching aspirations could easily rationalize cutting corners since “everyone is doing it.”

dukelifer
10-16-2018, 08:53 AM
In what way did Coach K struggle with his answer? Don't see it.

In the audio - he seemed very uncomfortable. I also found it strange that he claimed he was not following it. If a scandal hit my profession and colleagues I know very well - I would follow it even if it did not involve me. To say it is a blip is very odd in my opinion.

luburch
10-16-2018, 09:19 AM
In the audio - he seemed very uncomfortable. I also found it strange that he claimed he was not following it. If a scandal hit my profession and colleagues I know very well - I would follow it even if it did not involve me. To say it is a blip is very odd in my opinion.

I agree, I thought his response could have been better. I didn't expect him to say something like "Yes, there is cheating in college sports. We all know it." Just seems like he could have given a little more realistic of a response.

Billy Dat
10-16-2018, 09:36 AM
In the audio - he seemed very uncomfortable. I also found it strange that he claimed he was not following it. If a scandal hit my profession and colleagues I know very well - I would follow it even if it did not involve me. To say it is a blip is very odd in my opinion.


I agree, I thought his response could have been better. I didn't expect him to say something like "Yes, there is cheating in college sports. We all know it." Just seems like he could have given a little more realistic of a response.

I am with you both on this. K is the face of college basketball. When he discussed these matters over the past year and in the fall, he was much more engaged and offered really interesting perspective. I am sure he is being counseled on what to say...and his presser was prior to the news about the Self text being shared in the courtroom.

johnb
10-16-2018, 09:39 AM
I don't know that I read this text as a Duke/UNC accusation. Aside from the fact that it makes Self look bad, my read is that they're making the obvious point that lottery picks make programs happy. And they do make programs happy. The collusion is between Gassnola and Self to pay players to come to Kansas in order to be happy like Duke, UNC, and Kentucky. It's not clear to me that the texts are explicitly saying that they think these other schools also cheat.



Gassnola: "'The more you have lottery picks and you happy. That's how it should work in my mind."

"That's how ur (sic) works. At UNC and Duke," Self replied.

Gassnola answered by saying Kentucky as well.'"

OldPhiKap
10-16-2018, 09:46 AM
I don't know that I read this text as a Duke/UNC accusation. Aside from the fact that it makes Self look bad, my read is that they're making the obvious point that lottery picks make programs happy. And they do make programs happy. The collusion is between Gassnola and Self to pay players to come to Kansas in order to be happy like Duke, UNC, and Kentucky. It's not clear to me that the texts are explicitly saying that they think these other schools also cheat.



Gassnola: "'The more you have lottery picks and you happy. That's how it should work in my mind."

"That's how ur (sic) works. At UNC and Duke," Self replied.

Gassnola answered by saying Kentucky as well.'"

This was my read as well.

And even if Self was making an off-hand swipe at other programs, that's a far cry from swearing to facts of impropriety.

Is Bill Self on the witness list?

hsheffield
10-16-2018, 10:08 AM
There are allegations and innuendo and then there is evidence. What happened yesterday in court was evidence that Bill Self (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24990651/texts-show-kansas-coaches-knew-adidas-role-silvio-de-sousa-recruitment) was working with an Adidas bag man to bring recruits to Kansas. That is fairly clear. Everything else is Bill Self saying, "everybody else does it," which is a pretty #!^!^@^ way of defending your own morality.

I need to see some evidence before I am going to convict anyone... especially someone with a sterling reputation like Coach K.

Agree. Some of the reporting so far seems to border on muckraking.

ChillinDuke
10-16-2018, 10:09 AM
I am with you both on this. K is the face of college basketball. When he discussed these matters over the past year and in the fall, he was much more engaged and offered really interesting perspective. I am sure he is being counseled on what to say...and his presser was prior to the news about the Self text being shared in the courtroom.

I'm on the other side on this one. If I'm Coach K, what do I have to gain from offering anything in this situation. On the other hand, I literally have everything to lose.

If I appear "engaged" and offer "really interesting perspective", I probably please my existing fans and maybe grab a couple others. But it's also likely that my words are twisted and/or taken out of context and spammed all over Earth in such a way that many people start to question me and/or my motives.

At this point, I'd steer clear. It's one thing to talk when the Commission was announced or when allegations are made. But we're in a real life court case right now - I wouldn't get involved.

$0.02

- Chillin

Tab: $176.14 (the heck is the bartender around here?)

OldPhiKap
10-16-2018, 10:18 AM
I'm on the other side on this one. If I'm Coach K, what do I have to gain from offering anything in this situation. On the other hand, I literally have everything to lose.

If I appear "engaged" and offer "really interesting perspective", I probably please my existing fans and maybe grab a couple others. But it's also likely that my words are twisted and/or taken out of context and spammed all over Earth in such a way that many people start to question me and/or my motives.

At this point, I'd steer clear. It's one thing to talk when the Commission was announced or when allegations are made. But we're in a real life court case right now - I wouldn't get involved.

$0.02

- Chillin

Tab: $176.14 (the heck is the bartender around here?)

If I were K's lawyer, I would tell him to say about exactly what he did.

1. No reason to stick your nose in the case, all you do is make yourself a witness.
2. K presumably has no first hand information.
3. While I trust that K runs a clean program, you don't know what you don't know. K didn't know about Maggette and a high school incident. There is simply no way of knowing everything about every player (and their extended family) that you have had in your program. So, don't say something that you will have to swallow later.

Billy Dat
10-16-2018, 10:38 AM
Here it comes from Yahoo...

Wetzel

"Coach K shows what college basketball's elite thinks about hoops corruption trial"
https://sports.yahoo.com/coach-k-shows-college-basketballs-elite-thinks-hoops-corruption-trial-052601836.html

"Mike Krzyzewski, the great Mike Krzyzewski, who is way too smart for this, who is way too strong for this, is just going with the status quo and claiming that a federal trial and under-oath testimony and FBI wiretaps are just nothing, nothing at all."

And Forde
@YahooForde
Wendell Carter's parents met w Christian Dawkins. Lance Thomas' jewelry. Cory Magette was in the Myron Piggie posse. Bagleys owned a Nike AAU team. But K doesn't know a thing about how the CBB underground economy works.

BD80
10-16-2018, 10:50 AM
There are allegations and innuendo and then there is evidence. What happened yesterday in court was evidence that Bill Self (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24990651/texts-show-kansas-coaches-knew-adidas-role-silvio-de-sousa-recruitment) was working with an Adidas bag man to bring recruits to Kansas. That is fairly clear. Everything else is Bill Self saying, "everybody else does it," which is a pretty #!^!^@^ way of defending your own morality.

I need to see some evidence before I am going to convict anyone... especially someone with a sterling reputation like Coach K.


But that's not how social media ((redacted by mod team)) works.


And of course, by "social media," I mean to include broadcast "news," "news" internet sites, newspapers, info-tainment like John Oliver or ESPN, late-night talk shows, day-time gab fests etc.

CBS has run two stories (how apt is that word in this context?) which imply that Nike helps get recruits for Duke. How long before this is a topic on the litany of opinion shows on ESPN?

Wouldn't it be great to get back to a world where evidence mattered, and allegations without evidence ignored?

JasonEvans
10-16-2018, 10:57 AM
Here it comes from Yahoo...

Wetzel

"Coach K shows what college basketball's elite thinks about hoops corruption trial"
https://sports.yahoo.com/coach-k-shows-college-basketballs-elite-thinks-hoops-corruption-trial-052601836.html

"Mike Krzyzewski, the great Mike Krzyzewski, who is way too smart for this, who is way too strong for this, is just going with the status quo and claiming that a federal trial and under-oath testimony and FBI wiretaps are just nothing, nothing at all."

And Forde
@YahooForde
Wendell Carter's parents met w Christian Dawkins. Lance Thomas' jewelry. Cory Magette was in the Myron Piggie posse. Bagleys owned a Nike AAU team. But K doesn't know a thing about how the CBB underground economy works.

Coach K is the face of college basketball. Heck, to some extent he is the face of all of basketball because he has been the steward of the greatest team on Earth for the past 12 years or so. He is in a lose-lose situation here. His sport is horribly corrupt and is tied to a model where players who are worth millions are treated like they are worth nothing. There are legal and moral battles going on and he simply cannot get too involved without putting himself and his program in jeopardy. He tried to take the path of least resistance by saying he wasn't really paying attention to the case, which actually may be true (he's known to be laser focused on his team from Sept-April), but there is automatically going to be some blowback on that from folks who want him to take a stronger stand.

That said, a column or two saying he could have spoken out certainly make fewer headlines than if he had spoken out in some forceful way and taken a really controversial stand. If K had said, "we all know the status quo does not work. Our system needs to be blown up and players need to either be compensated by the NCAA or they need to be given the opportunity to make money outside of the NCAA system," then it would be on the front page of every sports page in the country (and the internet). But K can't do that. I am sure he is working behind the scenes to bring about the changes that he thinks will benefit the sport. Making a loud pronouncement about the flaws in the NCAA could cut him off from being involved in the reform efforts.

Bottom line -- amateur basketball is broken. Everyone knows that. The commission came up with a few ideas that could make things better, but missed the mark badly in some other ways. K is a major player in all this and he is going to take some fire as a result. I am neither surprised nor upset at these developments.

-Jason "Duke is always going to be in the cross-hairs... the day no one cares about what we are doing -- the day we are no longer the most important team in the sport -- will be a sad day indeed" Evans

PackMan97
10-16-2018, 11:07 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if some folks use the "everybody is doing it" to lure families and coaches into this scheme. Even if not everyone is doing, it's quite likely some might think everyone is doing.I can see Adidas folks telling an adidas school that of course Nike schools are paying their players, player's families or whatever.

Just because you believe Adidas doesn't mean it's true.

What a hot mess.

SavDukeGrad
10-16-2018, 11:33 AM
Like some have already noted, I think we will learn a lot when the defense starts to present their cases. I am specifically interested in Merl Code’s defense, since he previously worked for Nike’s EYBL. I think that will tell us a lot about the theory that “everybody is doing it”, and if Nike has issues similar to Adidas.

Kfanarmy
10-16-2018, 11:36 AM
Coach K is the face of college basketball. Heck, to some extent he is the face of all of basketball because he has been the steward of the greatest team on Earth for the past 12 years or so. He is in a lose-lose situation here. His sport is horribly corrupt and is tied to a model where players who are worth millions are treated like they are worth nothing. There are legal and moral battles going on and he simply cannot get too involved without putting himself and his program in jeopardy. He tried to take the path of least resistance by saying he wasn't really paying attention to the case, which actually may be true (he's known to be laser focused on his team from Sept-April), but there is automatically going to be some blowback on that from folks who want him to take a stronger stand.

That said, a column or two saying he could have spoken out certainly make fewer headlines than if he had spoken out in some forceful way and taken a really controversial stand. If K had said, "we all know the status quo does not work. Our system needs to be blown up and players need to either be compensated by the NCAA or they need to be given the opportunity to make money outside of the NCAA system," then it would be on the front page of every sports page in the country (and the internet). But K can't do that. I am sure he is working behind the scenes to bring about the changes that he thinks will benefit the sport. Making a loud pronouncement about the flaws in the NCAA could cut him off from being involved in the reform efforts.

Bottom line -- amateur basketball is broken. Everyone knows that. The commission came up with a few ideas that could make things better, but missed the mark badly in some other ways. K is a major player in all this and he is going to take some fire as a result. I am neither surprised nor upset at these developments.

-Jason "Duke is always going to be in the cross-hairs... the day no one cares about what we are doing -- the day we are no longer the most important team in the sport -- will be a sad day indeed" Evans

1) I don't see the corruption here. Kid is wearing a brand of shoes playing AAU ball. Company wants that kid to continue wearing those shoes because A) it is good for business and B) they've already invested in that kid.
2) Shoe company steers kid to a big time school where their brand will get maximum exposure.
3) Shoe company pays him and those who influence him $ to keep the kid in their shoes, assuming he'll keep them on if he goes pro.
4) There has been no explicit statement of quid pro quo in this case that I have heard.


5) This is not the first time someone has said "he did it to" in the act of or after getting caught committing an offense. My kids have all done it at one time or another. Apparently Bill Self needed to justify his own dubious behavior.

6) At least this situation provides a good backdrop for white knights -- who think a college education is worth nothing to the thousands of kids who won't go pro; and who think the hundred or so kids a year who will go pro should get paid millions to play college ball while the rest starve-- to complain about how broke the system is.

I don't see the system as broke.

((content redacted by moderator))

and Forde is an A__hat.

sagegrouse
10-16-2018, 11:49 AM
Here it comes from Yahoo...

Wetzel

"Coach K shows what college basketball's elite thinks about hoops corruption trial"
https://sports.yahoo.com/coach-k-shows-college-basketballs-elite-thinks-hoops-corruption-trial-052601836.html

"Mike Krzyzewski, the great Mike Krzyzewski, who is way too smart for this, who is way too strong for this, is just going with the status quo and claiming that a federal trial and under-oath testimony and FBI wiretaps are just nothing, nothing at all."

And Forde
@YahooForde
Wendell Carter's parents met w Christian Dawkins. Lance Thomas' jewelry. Cory Magette was in the Myron Piggie posse. Bagleys owned a Nike AAU team. But K doesn't know a thing about how the CBB underground economy works.

For more recent members let's deal with these charges:

The Christian Dawkins lunch with Wendell's parents was a big nothing. The Caters wanted nothing to do with him

The problem with Lance Thomas's jewelry was how ugly it was. He got sued by a Ukrainian merchant from the diamond district in NYC and it got settled. Lance originally bought the jewelry with his own money. Surely no agent would advance funds to a guy averaging 4.6 points per game who was never gonna be drafted. (Of course, Lance has done a lot in the NBA -- but he hoed a long, hard row with very little income.)

Corey Maggette received "excess travel funds" from Myron Piggie BEFORE Duke was ever recruiting him. At most, he would have had to sit out a few games and pay the money back.

Yeah, Bagley senior did get paid by Nike to run an AAU team. All perfectly legal. As is hiring assistant coaches to recruit their sons.

UrinalCake
10-16-2018, 12:00 PM
I agree with johnb, it is difficult to interpret these texts and to know if Self is referring to taking payments, or to landing one and done's. If it's the latter, then there's a separate issue with his statement which is that UNC doesn't really land one and done's anymore, but that's a discussion for another time. Furthermore, as I alluded to earlier, is he just using Duke and UNC as a representation of the well-known programs? I remember when reports of steroid usage in Track and Field came out, somebody testified that he could make an athlete "run like Usain Bolt." He wasn't claiming that Bolt used steroids, he was just using Bolt as an example of being at the top of the sport.

As for K's comments from yesterday's media day, he has gotten some criticism for claiming that this trial is a "blip." Personally, I think what he was trying to say is that the sport of college basketball is bigger than this, that the majority of programs are clean and that the dirty laundry being aired is only a small part of the landscape and not representative of the sport as a whole. This trial will happen and we'll move on and the sport as we know it will survive and continue to thrive. But that's not how his comments are being interpreted. Instead, sportswriters are taking it to mean that he doesn't understand what is actually going on, or that he doesn't want anything to do with it. Which is unfortunate because K carries one of the biggest voices in the sport, and in the past he has taken the opportunity to speak up on the need for change. But it is also understandable that he wants to stay out of it for now.

AGDukesky
10-16-2018, 12:24 PM
Excellent post and one that saved me from trying to make many of the same points in a less succinct manner

Sorry, I meant to quote UrinalCake

PackMan97
10-16-2018, 12:42 PM
Remember, much of schemes like these (and like Carolina's academic fraud) is to make you "damaged goods" to other programs and companies. Once they've given you money as a player, or you've agreed as a coach to pay a player, they've got you. You can't say no any more because that will ruin you. You can't transfer schools. You can't go to a non-approved program if you switch jobs/transfer. It's insidious.

Billy Dat
10-16-2018, 01:14 PM
Coach K is the face of college basketball. He tried to take the path of least resistance by saying he wasn't really paying attention to the case, which actually may be true (he's known to be laser focused on his team from Sept-April), but there is automatically going to be some blowback on that from folks who want him to take a stronger stand.

I think you make a very good point about K, essentially, being willing to take the heat. He is very tough that way. I also thought about his "game mode" focus, maybe that's why he was much more expansive this summer.


As for K's comments from yesterday's media day, he has gotten some criticism for claiming that this trial is a "blip." Personally, I think what he was trying to say is that the sport of college basketball is bigger than this, that the majority of programs are clean and that the dirty laundry being aired is only a small part of the landscape and not representative of the sport as a whole. This trial will happen and we'll move on and the sport as we know it will survive and continue to thrive. But that's not how his comments are being interpreted. Instead, sportswriters are taking it to mean that he doesn't understand what is actually going on, or that he doesn't want anything to do with it. Which is unfortunate because K carries one of the biggest voices in the sport, and in the past he has taken the opportunity to speak up on the need for change. But it is also understandable that he wants to stay out of it for now.

I agree that his comments alluded to his previously-stated belief that there is much more right with college basketball than wrong, but I think, in this case, saying nothing would have been smarter. He gave the impression that the trial was not worth commenting on, which I think, from his position, is not taking it seriously enough. For someone who is so media savvy, and aware of his position in the sport, I think it was a bit of a cop out. I don't think the story is going away.


1) I don't see the corruption here. Kid is wearing a brand of shoes playing AAU ball. Company wants that kid to continue wearing those shoes because A) it is good for business and B) they've already invested in that kid.
2) Shoe company steers kid to a big time school where their brand will get maximum exposure.
3) Shoe company pays him and those who influence him $ to keep the kid in their shoes, assuming he'll keep them on if he goes pro.
4) There has been no explicit statement of quid pro quo in this case that I have heard.

The text sequence between Self and Adidas runner TJ Gassnola is pretty close:

Self:
"just need to get a couple real guys."

Gassnola:
"In my mind, it's KU, Bill Self. Everyone else fall into line. Too (expletive) bad. That's what's right for Adidas basketball. And I know I'm right. The more you have lottery picks and you happy. That's how it should work in my mind."

Self:
"That's how ur (sic) works. At UNC and Duke," Self replied.

Gassnola:
"I promise you I got this. I have never let you down. Except (Deandre). Lol. We will get it right."

Back to K, though. Because he is so smart and I have faith and trust in him, I like it when he answers these queries with confidence and precision and makes a great point that defends the game, and even supports his fellow coaches. He could have said something similar to what he has said in the recent past which is, "I actually think the sneaker companies are great for our game...they provide clothes and equipment and tournaments which allow all kinds of kids from all kinds of backgrounds to get exposure and a shot at a scholarship to help them go to college. In my own personal experience, I have a great relationship with Nike. We have come a long way in how we, the schools, can provide additional food and clothes and travel for families and other benefits that we couldn't provide before, so I think we are getting better. Are we perfect? No. Is there work to do to try and create an environment where kids and their families and schools aren't tempted to break rules? Yes. Do I think this issue taints all of college basketball to the point where it outdoes all the positives that the game brings to millions...not by a long shot..."

NSDukeFan
10-16-2018, 01:16 PM
I’m not alleging there is or is not this situation at Duke.

If it comes out that Duke and K have been cheating, that will be it for me for sport.

I’ll just slink back to Ymm, Beer and dream of something (anything) pure.

Some beer companies are also likely corrupt. 😃

Scorp4me
10-16-2018, 01:19 PM
But that's not how social media ((redacted by mod team)) works.


And of course, by "social media," I mean to include broadcast "news," "news" internet sites, newspapers, info-tainment like John Oliver or ESPN, late-night talk shows, day-time gab fests etc.

CBS has run two stories (how apt is that word in this context?) which imply that Nike helps get recruits for Duke. How long before this is a topic on the litany of opinion shows on ESPN?

Wouldn't it be great to get back to a world where evidence mattered, and allegations without evidence ignored?

YES! But be careful what you advocate, common sense will get you accused of some pretty nasty things in today's world.

JasonEvans
10-16-2018, 01:38 PM
Back to K, though. Because he is so smart and I have faith and trust in him, I like it when he answers these queries with confidence and precision and makes a great point that defends the game, and even supports his fellow coaches. He could have said something similar to what he has said in the recent past which is, "I actually think the sneaker companies are great for our game...they provide clothes and equipment and tournaments which allow all kinds of kids from all kinds of backgrounds to get exposure and a shot at a scholarship to help them go to college. In my own personal experience, I have a great relationship with Nike. We have come a long way in how we, the schools, can provide additional food and clothes and travel for families and other benefits that we couldn't provide before, so I think we are getting better. Are we perfect? No. Is there work to do to try and create an environment where kids and their families and schools aren't tempted to break rules? Yes. Do I think this issue taints all of college basketball to the point where it outdoes all the positives that the game brings to millions...not by a long shot..."

With Mike Cragg moving on, there would seem to be a position in the Duke Athletic Department for "K's closest confidant and adviser." I hereby nominate Billy Dat to take this position.

Billy Dat
10-16-2018, 02:21 PM
With Mike Cragg moving on, there would seem to be a position in the Duke Athletic Department for "K's closest confidant and adviser." I hereby nominate Billy Dat to take this position.

Sign me up! I'll put in a good word for you as Minister of Program Hagiography.

wobatus
10-16-2018, 07:04 PM
Self probably meant Ur, as in Ur-man, as in Abraham’s family in the Bible came from the town of Ur in Babel. Original man. From time immemorial, everyone does it. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

So sayeth someone who does it.

camion
10-17-2018, 07:41 AM
Self probably meant Ur, as in Ur-man, as in Abraham’s family in the Bible came from the town of Ur in Babel. Original man. From time immemorial, everyone does it. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

So sayeth someone who does it.

I suppose one could sayeth that this is a scandal of Bibilical proportions.

elvis14
10-17-2018, 10:08 AM
I thought that Coach K made the remarks he did to dismiss the line of questioning and get back to what he was interested in talking about, Duke Basketball. I was listening to the video and heard the 'blip' comment. Before that he was talking about our players and starting the season and Javin being back at practice this week, all Duke Basketball subjects. I just think he wanted to say as little as possible and move the conversation back on topic, Duke Basketball. I'm also sure that if someone wanted to get his thoughts on the Adidas (not Duke Basketball) story, he'd discuss it at length...if it was the subject at hand.

wilson
10-18-2018, 08:06 PM
Well, isn’t this cute?
Adidas exec testifies that he paid high school player at Bill Self’s behest (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25018425/attorney-adidas-executive-says-20k-payment-only-made-request-kansas-jayhawks-coach-bill-self)

WiJoe
10-18-2018, 10:42 PM
https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/10/coach-k-isnt-ignorant-hes-just-tired-of-nobody-listening

hsheffield
10-19-2018, 03:04 PM
In the most recent ‘emergency’ DBR podcast, Jason makes the point that Zion committed in Jan 18 and the FBI indictments were announced Sept. 17. Duke basketball has been accused of many things, but being stupid isn’t one of them. Who in their right mind would participate in these shenanigans knowing that the FBI was watching?

Thanks guys for putting that out there.

Unfortunately, CBS sports’ NCAA basketball podcast is another story:

I’m a longstanding fan of Gary Parrish & Matt Norlander, but they disappointed me today. The innuendo of wrongdoing with so little evidence was over the top.

Mudslinging and muckraking seems to be going on everywhere these days.

Sigh...I’m feeling like an old fart whining about the old days when people had a some integrity

Saratoga2
10-19-2018, 05:16 PM
It’s like that old saying: when the Kansas coach points one finger at others, he also has three fingers pointing back at Bill Self.

Kind of Self incriminating!

proelitedota
10-19-2018, 05:32 PM
In the most recent ‘emergency’ DBR podcast, Jason makes the point that Zion committed in Jan 18 and the FBI indictments were announced Sept. 17. Duke basketball has been accused of many things, but being stupid isn’t one of them. Who in their right mind would participate in these shenanigans knowing that the FBI was watching?

Thanks guys for putting that out there.

Unfortunately, CBS sports’ NCAA basketball podcast is another story:

I’m a longstanding fan of Gary Parrish & Matt Norlander, but they disappointed me today. The innuendo of wrongdoing with so little evidence was over the top.

Mudslinging and muckraking seems to be going on everywhere these days.

Sigh...I’m feeling like an old fart whining about the old days when people had a some integrity

Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander didn't review the timeline.

Disappointing.

JasonEvans
10-19-2018, 06:06 PM
In the most recent ‘emergency’ DBR podcast, Jason makes the point that Zion committed in Jan 18 and the FBI indictments were announced Sept. 17. Duke basketball has been accused of many things, but being stupid isn’t one of them. Who in their right mind would participate in these shenanigans knowing that the FBI was watching?

Thanks guys for putting that out there.

Unfortunately, CBS sports’ NCAA basketball podcast is another story:

I’m a longstanding fan of Gary Parrish & Matt Norlander, but they disappointed me today. The innuendo of wrongdoing with so little evidence was over the top.

Mudslinging and muckraking seems to be going on everywhere these days.

Sigh...I’m feeling like an old fart whining about the old days when people had a some integrity

I'm not going to give hits to Parrish and Norlander if they totally blow the story... so can you or someone who has listened tell me a bit more about what they said about the Duke/Zion stuff?

hsheffield
10-19-2018, 08:33 PM
I'm not going to give hits to Parrish and Norlander if they totally blow the story... so can you or someone who has listened tell me a bit more about what they said about the Duke/Zion stuff?

so they never came right out and said that Duke/Zion were guilty. they said it's possible that Duke didn't pay Zion to come to Durham, but thought it was hard to believe. heavily implied it would be naive to believe that no quid pro quo had occurred to get Zion to Duke. they also said it was possible that Zion's parents did all this negotiating without his knowledge-brought up that Zion could have been a victim. mused that Zion's biologic father could have been doing things behind the family's back (said that Zion and his biologic father are rarely in contact) but again, not likely.

if anyone else listened, please feel free to correct me if I misheard. I was theoretically at work while I was listening.


related: I tweeted 'the timeline' to Gary Parrish (my 5th tweet ever I think) and got no response from GP, but another tweeter said that Zion had to know what was going on because his parents had moved into an $840K house in Durham. lots of assumptions, some racist, in that tweet....