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WNC
10-12-2018, 07:27 PM
According to this guy, the New York Giants.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2019-nfl-mock-draft-giants-take-a-sleeper-as-first-qb-off-the-board-replace-eli-manning/

HereBeforeCoachK
10-12-2018, 08:24 PM
According to this guy, the New York Giants.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2019-nfl-mock-draft-giants-take-a-sleeper-as-first-qb-off-the-board-replace-eli-manning/

Yes that article is being circulated on another thread here at DBR...not sure which one. Anyway, I don't see it happening.

jimsumner
10-12-2018, 08:49 PM
Jones graduates this year. He has been bothered by injuries the last two seasons.


If he has a reasonable expectation of going in the first couple of rounds, then he should go.

And I suspect he will and he will.

Top-tier programs face this all of the time. Duke hasn't had to face it because Duke hasn't produced NFL-level talent good enough to go pro after their redshirt junior year.

Jones and Joe Giles-Harris are good enough. Bad news in the short term but good news in the long term. If Duke is going to beat the big boys, they have to recruit with the big boys. Turning prospects into NFL players helps. A lot.

cato
10-13-2018, 12:25 AM
Jones graduates this year. He has been bothered by injuries the last two seasons.


If he has a reasonable expectation of going in the first couple of rounds, then he should go.

And I suspect he will and he will.

Top-tier programs face this all of the time. Duke hasn't had to face it because Duke hasn't produced NFL-level talent good enough to go pro after their redshirt junior year.

Jones and Joe Giles-Harris are good enough. Bad news in the short term but good news in the long term. If Duke is going to beat the big boys, they have to recruit with the big boys. Turning prospects into NFL players helps. A lot.

I’m on board with all of this, but can we hope he lands somewhere better than Jersey A or Jersey B?

budwom
10-13-2018, 07:52 AM
Jones graduates this year. He has been bothered by injuries the last two seasons.


If he has a reasonable expectation of going in the first couple of rounds, then he should go.

And I suspect he will and he will.

Top-tier programs face this all of the time. Duke hasn't had to face it because Duke hasn't produced NFL-level talent good enough to go pro after their redshirt junior year.

Jones and Joe Giles-Harris are good enough. Bad news in the short term but good news in the long term. If Duke is going to beat the big boys, they have to recruit with the big boys. Turning prospects into NFL players helps. A lot.

Barring a yoooge uptick in his game, I will come down and wax your car for you if he goes in the "first couple" of rounds next year. I'm optimistic about him, but not THAT optimistic.
(how large is your car?)

sagegrouse
10-13-2018, 09:03 AM
According to this guy, the New York Giants.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2019-nfl-mock-draft-giants-take-a-sleeper-as-first-qb-off-the-board-replace-eli-manning/

CBS Sports writer Chris Trapasso seems to referring to this blurb from PFF, "which covers the NFL Draft all year round," although I would expect CBS Sports to have a ton of access to scouts and execs from NFL teams.


QB Daniel Jones, Duke

Coming into the season, Jones was already getting a look from NFL scouts due to his 6-foot-5, 220-pound frame and NFL tools, however, with a 65.7 grade in 2016 and a 61.8 grade last season, there was plenty of work to be done before he looked like a proper NFL prospect. We’re only 83 dropbacks into Jones’ season, but it’s been night and day compared to the first two years of his career as he’s graded at 92.0, good for fourth among draft-eligible signal-callers. Jones has been outstanding throwing the ball down the field, ranking second in adjusted completion percentage on 20-plus yard throws at 72.7% as he’s completed 6-of-11 attempts with two of his five incompletions being dropped. Jones has gone from ‘toolsy’ projection to intriguing prospect, though there’s still plenty of work to be done from a week-to-week consistency standpoint.

BandAlum83
10-13-2018, 10:38 AM
Doesn't Daniel have one more year of eligibility left after this year?

I know he was a redshirt, and will probably be graduating, but is it a forgone conclusion he won't come back for another year?

Bob Green
10-13-2018, 10:51 AM
Doesn't Daniel have one more year of eligibility left after this year?

I know he was a redshirt, and will probably be graduating, but is it a forgone conclusion he won't come back for another year?

Yes, DJ has another year of eligibility so it is not a forgone conclusion. However, speculation is he will opt for the NFL Draft at the end of the season.

The same speculation applies to LB Joe Giles-Harris.

Faison1
10-13-2018, 11:08 AM
Yes, DJ has another year of eligibility so it is not a forgone conclusion. However, speculation is he will opt for the NFL Draft at the end of the season.

The same speculation applies to LB Joe Giles-Harris.

I'm sure this is great for the program and recruiting...but as a fan, this sux.

I enjoy Duke Football more now than I enjoy Duke Basketball. So, I'd like to see a continuing upward trend in our results on the field.

My impression is the team is relatively young this year, but losing Giles-Harris, Humphreys, and Jones will sting next year.

Having said that, if the season continues in a positive fashion where Daniel and Joe perform at an NFL level, my hat's off to them.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-13-2018, 11:13 AM
I'm sure this is great for the program and recruiting...but as a fan, this sux.

I enjoy Duke Football more now than I enjoy Duke Basketball. So, I'd like to see a continuing upward trend in our results on the field.

My impression is the team is relatively young this year, but losing Giles-Harris, Humphreys, and Jones will sting next year.

Having said that, if the season continues in a positive fashion where Daniel and Joe perform at an NFL level, my hat's off to them.

I would say this:
If Jones is a high draft pick - then that will mean that he and Duke both have a ton of success this year. If he is good but not awesome, then that means he'll be back at Duke next season. There's some silver lining in either scenario.

DukieInBrasil
10-13-2018, 03:44 PM
with 3 TDs vs 1 Int and 200+ yards passing, Jones certainly didn't hurt his chances of getting a look in the NFL.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-13-2018, 05:22 PM
with 3 TDs vs 1 Int and 200+ yards passing, Jones certainly didn't hurt his chances of getting a look in the NFL.

don't be so sure. 200+ is not even a milestone anymore, hasn't been in 30 years. There will be 75 QBs today with more passing yards.

jimsumner
10-13-2018, 05:24 PM
Folks, I'm sorry if I'm bringing people down but NFL scouts seem to like Daniel Jones and there's a very strong chance he will not return for the 2019 season.

Bob Green
10-13-2018, 05:31 PM
Folks, I'm sorry if I'm bringing people down but NFL scouts seem to like Daniel Jones and there's a very strong chance he will not return for the 2019 season.

You're reporting the facts. I for one desire for you to keep them coming.

OZZIE4DUKE
10-13-2018, 05:39 PM
Folks, I'm sorry if I'm bringing people down but NFL scouts seem to like Daniel Jones and there's a very strong chance he will not return for the 2019 season.


You're reporting the facts. I for one desire for you to keep them coming.
I agree with Bob! Good stuff always from you and Steve Wiseman.

Sure wish we’d get our power back on. This third world crap is for the birds. LGD GTHc!

richardjackson199
10-13-2018, 05:41 PM
I agree with Bob! Good stuff always from you and Steve Wiseman.

Sure wish we’d get our power back on. This third world crap is for the birds. LGD GTHc!

I actually got power back on much faster than this in Nicaragua. We finally got our power back today. A colleague physician was told to expect hers back Tuesday. Michael damage much worse than expected in NC

Dukehky
10-13-2018, 05:48 PM
I would say this:
If Jones is a high draft pick - then that will mean that he and Duke both have a ton of success this year. If he is good but not awesome, then that means he'll be back at Duke next season. There's some silver lining in either scenario.

Josh Allen played for an FCS team that won like 5 games and went in the top ten. The NFL has prototypes. Jones fits that. He doesn't even have to be that good to get drafted. I expect him to be gone. He's been really good for us this year. His numbers would be astounding if his receivers could occasionally make a tough catch, or even a catch that hits them in the hands for 50 yards and a td...

tbyers11
10-13-2018, 05:58 PM
Josh Allen played for an FCS team that won like 5 games and went in the top ten. The NFL has prototypes. Jones fits that. He doesn't even have to be that good to get drafted. I expect him to be gone. He's been really good for us this year. His numbers would be astounding if his receivers could occasionally make a tough catch, or even a catch that hits them in the hands for 50 yards and a td...

Wyoming wasn't very good last year but they do play in the Mountain West in FBS.

I agree with you and the others though that Jones, despite lacking the gaudy stats of some spread QBs, is definitely on the NFL radar. I will also defer to Jim Sumner and Steve Wiseman who know far more about college football than I do.

Indoor66
10-13-2018, 06:30 PM
6'5" is a plus as a pro QB. Not that many of them around that are also pretty good.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-13-2018, 07:13 PM
I actually got power back on much faster than this in Nicaragua. We finally got our power back today. A colleague physician was told to expect hers back Tuesday. Michael damage much worse than expected in NC

Well I dealt with the Nicaraguan power grid for two years as the owner of a hotel on the Pacific Ocean....

As for Michael: well see if anyone can top this:
Florence damaged our home and our business in Beaufort pretty badly....lot of damages and loss falling through the gaps in insurance.
Michael slammed a 150 foot Sycamore tree onto our house in Raleigh, one that was just about to go up for sale after a 16 months 225K renovation...15-20K in damage if I had to guess, including the removal of this massive tree.

So I managed to get hit by both fall storms...and this is the really bad part: In coastal areas like Beaufort, you have to have three insurances...regular, wind and flood....so we have six deductibles to absorb with Florence, and a large deductible on our renovation project house in Raleigh. So absorbing 7 deductibles simultaneously....lowest is a thousand, two of them are over 2000. You don't think about seven deductibles at one time when you buy this stuff.

Now, back to football

ChillinDuke
10-14-2018, 08:48 AM
There's a difference between "getting a look in the NFL" or scouts "liking a player" or "fitting a prototype" versus a CBS article that links Jones as a potential first rounder to the NY Giants. The first three are vague and generic, the latter is strong and specific.

I get that Daniel Jones may leave after this year. I'm not doubting that the NFL is interested. But there's a monster difference between 4th round interested and 1st round franchise QB interested.

Daniel Jones as a franchise QB? Man, I'm rooting for it but I just don't see it. But I guess I also don't follow this stuff close enough to understand the transition from college to pros.

And I'm a Giants fan! I'm not so sure I'd be excited about DJ to replace Eli, my Duke blue allegiances aside.

- Chillin

CrazyNotCrazie
10-14-2018, 08:54 AM
There's a difference between "getting a look in the NFL" or scouts "liking a player" or "fitting a prototype" versus a CBS article that links Jones as a potential first rounder to the NY Giants. The first three are vague and generic, the latter is strong and specific.

I get that Daniel Jones may leave after this year. I'm not doubting that the NFL is interested. But there's a monster difference between 4th round interested and 1st round franchise QB interested.

Daniel Jones as a franchise QB? Man, I'm rooting for it but I just don't see it. But I guess I also don't follow this stuff close enough to understand the transition from college to pros.

And I'm a Giants fan! I'm not so sure I'd be excited about DJ to replace Eli, my Duke blue allegiances aside.

- Chillin

As a Giants fan I would only want them to draft him if he went in the third round after they took offensive linemen in the first two rounds to protect him. Their line is awful and it is not safe to play quarterback behind it. They also need to spend some money on a mental health professional to work with Beckham.

Hopefully he would work out better than the last Giants QB from Duke, Dave Brown.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-14-2018, 09:34 AM
As a Giants fan I would only want them to draft him if he went in the third round after they took offensive linemen in the first two rounds to protect him. Their line is awful and it is not safe to play quarterback behind it. They also need to spend some money on a mental health professional to work with Beckham.

Hopefully he would work out better than the last Giants QB from Duke, Dave Brown.

And as I recall, Dave Brown was tall like DJ....and to my memory, put up much more massive numbers and had a little better arm. Spurrier was the coach, and at the time, Spurrier's offense was simply ahead of pretty much every defense in the country. Spurrier's worst mistake was putting Billy Ray back in the start the bowl game when it was the emergence of the Brown led offense that earned the bowl. When Clarkston Hines didn't do much at the NFL level, kind of showed me that Brown was indeed the man.

Maybe it's because he was running an offense ahead of the curve, but in my memory Brown was better than DJ is now.

jimsumner
10-14-2018, 01:34 PM
Brown only played a few games for Spurrier but was very good in those few games. He threw for 444 yards and four TDs in his first start, against Wake Forest--Ray was out with an injury. That included a 97-yard TD pass to Clarkston Hines.

Brown played two seasons for Barry Wilson. He was hurt much of the 1990 season but passed for 2,794 yards in 1991, with 20 TDs. But he also threw 15 interceptions, which presaged some of his problems in the NFL.


He did have some success with the Giants. He passed for 2536, 2814 and 2412 yards in consecutive seasons. But he struggled with interceptions, he was replacing the popular Phil Simms and when the Giants fan base turned on him, they turned on him in a big way.


He's from New Jersey, so he really wanted to succeed with the home-town team.

Brown ended up back in NYC, working in the financial sector.

But he did last a decade in the NFL, playing 73 games, throwing for over 10,000 yards. You have to go back to Sonny Jurgensen to find a former Duke quarterback with more success in the NFL.

Despite David Cutcliffe's reputation as a QB guru, he hasn't produced a top-tier NFL quarterback at Duke. Thad Lewis--he inherited him--had modest success, Sean Renfree had less and that's it. If he can help Jones go from a lightly-recruited two-star recruit into a first or second round draft pick, that changes his Duke narrative and may make it easier to recruit top prep QBs to Duke.

The lack of success by Duke QBs over the last half century is curious. Al Woodall and Anthony Dilweg had a few moments of glory. But great college QBS like Leo Hart, Mike Dunn, Ben Bennett and Steve Slayden did nothing at the next level. Duke has been a great school for college QBs but not an NFL incubator. Maybe Jones can help change that.


I haven't talked to any NFL scouts about Jones. But Duke would love for Jones to play his way into the top rounds of the draft for the reasons I've tried to articulate in this post and upthread. Says good things about where the program is now and helps it down the road.

JasonEvans
10-15-2018, 08:15 AM
CBS isn't the only draft service fairly high on Daniel Jones.

USA Today has him as the 5th QB (https://draftwire.usatoday.com/2018/10/15/2019-nfl-draft-early-prospect-rankings-top-5-by-position/) off the board (likely a 2nd or 3rd rounder). It is still very early for mock drafts and Daniel only just came back from his injury. We will know a lot more by the end of November.

-Jason "don't forget that as a redshirt Jr., Daniel is on course to graduate this year... I suspect we are seeing his last regular season as a Blue Devil" Evans

johnb
10-15-2018, 01:06 PM
The below site lists him 4th in the qb draft sweepstakes but adds that NFL scouts expect him to return for his senior year.

One thing that has impressed me about Jones is that the game seems to slow down when the ball is in his hands, that he’s calmly decisive and deceptively productive. In those ways, his mindset/maturity/approach reminds me of a young Eli Manning, which may be why he’d be a fit in NY.

His numbers, btw, would be better if he played with NFL level receivers who would routinely catch some of those long balls that are undoubtedly difficult for a good college player to catch but routine for a really elite receiver.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2019QB.php

sagegrouse
10-15-2018, 01:13 PM
His numbers, btw, would be better if he played with NFL level receivers who would routinely catch some of those long balls that are undoubtedly difficult for a good college player to catch but routine for a really elite receiver.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2019QB.php
BTW, did anyone notice the drop by the UNC receiver when he was 5-10 yards beyond the VT defender and on a perfectly thrown ball? Oh, my!

devildeac
10-15-2018, 01:28 PM
BTW, did anyone notice the drop by the UNC receiver when he was 5-10 yards beyond the VT defender and on a perfectly thrown ball? Oh, my!

You're breaking my heart, sage. :rolleyes:

OldPhiKap
10-15-2018, 01:53 PM
BTW, did anyone notice the drop by the UNC receiver when he was 5-10 yards beyond the VT defender and on a perfectly thrown ball? Oh, my!

He dropped it quicker than a class with attendance requirements.

75Crazie
10-15-2018, 01:59 PM
But great college QBS like Leo Hart, Mike Dunn, Ben Bennett and Steve Slayden did nothing at the next level.
I am still bummed, after all these years, that Bennett did not pan out in the NFL. He is still, for my money, the best passer I've seen at Duke. He was definitely not the most mobile, and maybe that hurt him in the NFL … but when Bennett was playing at Duke and Esiason at Maryland, I would have taken Bennett any day (definitely a biased opinion). I know Spurrier made a lot of quarterbacks look good, and maybe Bennett just looked that good in comparison to his predecessors at Duke … but I don't think any of his successors could top him for throwing accuracy.

sagegrouse
10-15-2018, 02:07 PM
I am still bummed, after all these years, that Bennett did not pan out in the NFL. He is still, for my money, the best passer I've seen at Duke. He was definitely not the most mobile, and maybe that hurt him in the NFL … but when Bennett was playing at Duke and Esiason at Maryland, I would have taken Bennett any day (definitely a biased opinion). I know Spurrier made a lot of quarterbacks look good, and maybe Bennett just looked that good in comparison to his predecessors at Duke … but I don't think any of his successors could top him for throwing accuracy.

Bennett became a legend in the Arena Football league:


During his AFL playing career, he made five ArenaBowl appearances and was inducted into the AFL Hall of Fame in 2000.

He had several contracts in the NFL, played in a couple of games, but didn't stick. I seem to remember arm strength as a problem, but it was great to see him as a Blue Devil:


Bennett completed his collegiate career as the top passer in the history of NCAA Division I-A football with the most passes attempted (1,375), most passes completed (820), and the most yardage (9,614). Record for passes attempted and yards surpassed marks set by John Elway and Jim McMahon. Bennett was the first quarterback to run the "Fun & Gun" offense designed by Steve Spurrier, who was then the offensive coordinator at Duke University. He set seven NCAA, 15 ACC, and 42 school records while at Duke. Both quotes from Wikipedia

HereBeforeCoachK
10-15-2018, 03:56 PM
I am still bummed, after all these years, that Bennett did not pan out in the NFL. He is still, for my money, the best passer I've seen at Duke. He was definitely not the most mobile, and maybe that hurt him in the NFL … but when Bennett was playing at Duke and Esiason at Maryland, I would have taken Bennett any day (definitely a biased opinion). I know Spurrier made a lot of quarterbacks look good, and maybe Bennett just looked that good in comparison to his predecessors at Duke … but I don't think any of his successors could top him for throwing accuracy.

AMEN, I thought the same thing...that Bennett was better than Boomer in college - then Boomer went on to a long and productive career.

JasonEvans
11-14-2018, 10:56 AM
Mel Kiper has been on ESPN all morning today talking NFL draft. He says 2019 is a draft that will be dominated by defensive players, but there are two notable offensive players he expects to be drafted in the first 20 picks.

Oregon QB Justin Herbert is a top 5 pick... and Mel says Daniel Jones is the #2 QB in the draft, projected to come off the board with the #18 pick of the first round. Mel says this weekend's game against Clemson, a team full of future NFL players will be closely watched by teams who think Jones could be their QB of the future.

JayZee
11-14-2018, 11:33 AM
I imagine that DJ's 61 yard TD run where he put some daylight between himself and UNC DBs didn't hurt his pro prospects...

Reddevil
11-14-2018, 11:37 AM
Mel Kiper has been on ESPN all morning today talking NFL draft. He says 2019 is a draft that will be dominated by defensive players, but there are two notable offensive players he expects to be drafted in the first 20 picks.

Oregon QB Justin Herbert is a top 5 pick... and Mel says Daniel Jones is the #2 QB in the draft, projected to come off the board with the #18 pick of the first round. Mel says this weekend's game against Clemson, a team full of future NFL players will be closely watched by teams who think Jones could be their QB of the future.

I saw that. This is not a deep QB class which only helps in terms of his draft position. QB's are more valued than ever in this pass happy league where defense is barely tolerated.

I mean seriously, if someone played defense now the way it was played in the 70's, they would not just get penalized, and thrown out of the game, they would probably be arrested. Football in the 50's must have been a blast. A bunch of those guys were WWII vets and they absolutely destroyed each other. Ah, but that was when the rules were for the players and not for the couch potatoes, and they had real jobs during the off season because it did not pay much. I miss sports designed for and by the people that actually participate just because they want to. 500 yards of offense and celebrations after every play does not entertain me. Many players make in one game what most people will not see in their entire lives, so no, I do not care about their health. For that money they should be gladiators. Oh crap, I'm sorry. I just did the mean old man thing for no reason. Jones should go while his window is advantageous is what I meant to say.

cato
11-14-2018, 11:41 AM
I saw that. This is not a deep QB class which only helps in terms of his draft position. QB's are more valued than ever in this pass happy league where defense is barely tolerated.

I mean seriously, if someone played defense now the way it was played in the 70's, they would not just get penalized, and thrown out of the game, they would probably be arrested. Football in the 50's must have been a blast. A bunch of those guys were WWII vets and they absolutely destroyed each other. Ah, but that was when the rules were for the players and not for the couch potatoes, and they had real jobs during the off season because it did not pay much. I miss sports designed for and by the people that actually participate just because they want to. 500 yards of offense and celebrations after every play does not entertain me. Many players make in one game what most people will not see in their entire lives, so no, I do not care about their health. For that money they should be gladiators. Oh crap, I'm sorry. I just did the mean old man thing for no reason. Jones should go while his window is advantageous is what I meant to say.

Look at what all the money did for players like Junior Seau. No reason to worry about their health when they have money, right?

OldPhiKap
11-14-2018, 11:43 AM
I saw that. This is not a deep QB class which only helps in terms of his draft position. QB's are more valued than ever in this pass happy league where defense is barely tolerated.

I mean seriously, if someone played defense now the way it was played in the 70's, they would not just get penalized, and thrown out of the game, they would probably be arrested. Football in the 50's must have been a blast. A bunch of those guys were WWII vets and they absolutely destroyed each other. Ah, but that was when the rules were for the players and not for the couch potatoes, and they had real jobs during the off season because it did not pay much. I miss sports designed for and by the people that actually participate just because they want to. 500 yards of offense and celebrations after every play does not entertain me. Many players make in one game what most people will not see in their entire lives, so no, I do not care about their health. For that money they should be gladiators. Oh crap, I'm sorry. I just did the mean old man thing for no reason. Jones should go while his window is advantageous is what I meant to say.

I remember as a kid, football cards would often say what job the player had in the off-season.

The athletes of today produce a much higher concussive force than in the past I think. Bigger, stronger, faster. I'm in favor of the protective rules but realize that they are sometimes applied inconsistently.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-14-2018, 11:56 AM
I remember as a kid, football cards would often say what job the player had in the off-season.

The athletes of today produce a much higher concussive force than in the past I think. Bigger, stronger, faster. I'm in favor of the protective rules but realize that they are sometimes applied inconsistently.

Preach it. The hits the amazing Dick Butkus laid on people back in the day would be routine now. Bigger faster athletes all over the field at all positions makes collisions, for every body part, not just the head, far more dangerous. More people get hurt today, even with the rules, than ever before. This idea that what they play now is not "real football" as it was "back in the day" is misguided. But prevalent.

JayZee
11-14-2018, 11:58 AM
I remember as a kid, football cards would often say what job the player had in the off-season.

The athletes of today produce a much higher concussive force than in the past I think. Bigger, stronger, faster. I'm in favor of the protective rules but realize that they are sometimes applied inconsistently.

Would Alabama 2018 beat an NFL team from the 1960s?

arnie
11-14-2018, 12:00 PM
Mel Kiper has been on ESPN all morning today talking NFL draft. He says 2019 is a draft that will be dominated by defensive players, but there are two notable offensive players he expects to be drafted in the first 20 picks.

Oregon QB Justin Herbert is a top 5 pick... and Mel says Daniel Jones is the #2 QB in the draft, projected to come off the board with the #18 pick of the first round. Mel says this weekend's game against Clemson, a team full of future NFL players will be closely watched by teams who think Jones could be their QB of the future.

This can’t be possible since our local sports guys except for Wiseman don’t even know DJ. I’m sure Giglio think Finley should be first QB selected 😀

OldPhiKap
11-14-2018, 12:25 PM
Would Alabama 2018 beat an NFL team from the 1960s?

I laughed at this, but that actually is an interesting question. I think a pro secondary from fifty years ago would have a hard time with the modern passing game. And Alabama’s athleticism may equal some pro teams of the era.

Reilly
11-14-2018, 12:31 PM
... played in a couple of games ...

This site showing BB as playing in one game: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BennBe20.htm

... and Cleveland covered the 5 point spread by winning 34-0: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/198710180cin.htm

CameronBornAndBred
11-14-2018, 12:33 PM
Would Alabama 2018 beat an NFL team from the 1960s?


I laughed at this, but that actually is an interesting question. I think a pro secondary from fifty years ago would have a hard time with the modern passing game. And Alabama’s athleticism may equal some pro teams of the era.

That prompted me to do some Googling, and I found this cool piece on the evolution of linemen.

In the NFL, quarterbacks are bigger than ever. How big? At 6-foot-5 and 250 pounds, Cam Newton is bigger than most offensive linemen in the 1960s.

https://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-50s-tim-tebow-would-have-been-an-offensive-lineman-2011-10

OldPhiKap
11-14-2018, 12:50 PM
That prompted me to do some Googling, and I found this cool piece on the evolution of linemen.

https://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-50s-tim-tebow-would-have-been-an-offensive-lineman-2011-10

from CB&B's link (thanks for finding!):

"In the 1950s, the average offensive lineman was 6-foot-2, 234 pounds."



Three years ago, Alabama's offensive line averaged 311 pounds:

https://bamahammer.com/2015/09/05/alabamas-linemen-literally-size-truck/


I'm no scientist, but if force depends on mass and speed then you have an idea of how much force is created when the modern offensive and defensive linemen smack each other every play.

armondo
11-14-2018, 01:07 PM
Daniel Jones now #18 on Mel Kiper's NFL draft list ...

http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2019/insider/story/_/id/25268737/2019-nfl-draft-prospects-ranking-position-mel-kiper-big-board-ranking-top-25-grades

elvis14
11-14-2018, 01:14 PM
Would Alabama 2018 beat an NFL team from the 1960s?

Alabama and more importantly, Clemson would crush an NFL team from the 1960s. Aside from the difference in speed, the size of the lines would be something the older team just couldn't overcome.

budwom
11-14-2018, 01:57 PM
Alabama and more importantly, Clemson would crush an NFL team from the 1960s. Aside from the difference in speed, the size of the lines would be something the older team just couldn't overcome.

yeah, if you look back at average line sizes back then, they were at least 40lbs/man lighter than today (especially OL)...and a lot of the guys now are much faster as well...I remember
that when I covered sports at Duke in 1970 or so, the average sized lineman of the day was in the 240 range...most OLs now average 300 or so...

HereBeforeCoachK
11-14-2018, 02:28 PM
Would Alabama 2018 beat an NFL team from the 1960s?

Without a doubt.

JayZee
11-14-2018, 02:32 PM
I laughed at this, but that actually is an interesting question. I think a pro secondary from fifty years ago would have a hard time with the modern passing game. And Alabama’s athleticism may equal some pro teams of the era.

Glad you laughed. It was meant to be just a joke and hopefully not too much of a conversation starter..

Acymetric
11-14-2018, 02:33 PM
Would Alabama 2018 beat an NFL team from the 1960s?


Without a doubt.

I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that most 2018 BCS teams would beat an NFL team from the 60s. Especially assuming they are being coached by their 60s coach using 60s schemes. It isn't just the athleticism and size that has changed drastically, the strategies involved have advanced quite a bit too.

jimsumner
11-14-2018, 02:39 PM
These 1960s NFL players would be pretty old by now. :)

Seriously, this is apples and oranges. The 1960s NFL players didn't have access to today's training, nutrition, youth coaching and a whole host of advantages. Many of those 234-pound linemen in 1968 would be 311-pound linemen in fifty years later. It's just a different game in a different world.

OldPhiKap
11-14-2018, 02:59 PM
Glad you laughed. It was meant to be just a joke and hopefully not too much of a conversation starter..

Were you not expecting some sort of Spanish Inquisition?

OZZIE4DUKE
11-14-2018, 03:02 PM
from CB&B's link (thanks for finding!):

"In the 1950s, the average offensive lineman was 6-foot-2, 234 pounds."



Three years ago, Alabama's offensive line averaged 311 pounds:

https://bamahammer.com/2015/09/05/alabamas-linemen-literally-size-truck/


I'm no scientist, but if force depends on mass and speed then you have an idea of how much force is created when the modern offensive and defensive linemen smack each other every play.
Force =mass x acceleration
Momentum = mass x velocity
Energy = mass x velocity x velocity (E=mcsquared, c= speed of light, courtesy of Albert Einstein)

JayZee
11-14-2018, 03:23 PM
Were you not expecting some sort of Spanish Inquisition?

That's why I hesitated on posting it. At least I gave a couple people a laugh.

Back to my cinder block biz...

CameronBornAndBred
11-14-2018, 03:43 PM
Seriously, this is apples and oranges. The 1960s NFL players didn't have access to today's training, nutrition, youth coaching and a whole host of advantages.

What are you talking about, Jim? Those guys took great care of themselves!

8809

OldPhiKap
11-14-2018, 03:53 PM
What are you talking about, Jim? Those guys took great care of themselves!

8809

Performance enhancer. Opens up the lungs, sharpens the mind, calms the nerves.

InSpades
11-14-2018, 07:24 PM
I saw an interesting TED talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0) talking about whether athletes are getting faster, stronger, etc.

Some of the things he talked about were fascinating to me.

1 of the ideas was that athletes are more specialized now than they were many years ago. You might look at 3 athletes in track and field from many years ago... a sprinter, a long distance runner, a high jumpers and a shot putter. Many years ago... these athletes might not look all that different from one another. Nowadays you could probably pick which one does which just by looking at their body shapes.

He compared Usain Bolt to Jesse Owens. Owens gold medal winning 100m time wouldn't have made the final heat at recent Olympics. He wasn't particularly close. But when adjusting for starting block and the type of track and the type of shoe... all of a sudden Owens is right there w/ the modern sprinters.

Likewise he gave an example of cycling and how a certain event had seen the record mark grossly beaten year after year. However most the change was due to the bike, not the athlete. When they banned a certain bike enhancement almost all of the gain disappeared.

I still think Alabama would crush a team from the 60s but maybe it's just because we are selecting more for the right athletes to play football more than anything else.

I probably butchered most of the points above but you should give it a listen :).

DangerDevil
11-14-2018, 07:39 PM
More praise from the talking heads for Jones.

Paul Finebaum was on the Stephen A Smith show this afternoon and echoed Kiper’s sentiments and mentioned Daniel Jones second after Oregon’s Justin Herbert as the best pro QB prosepects eligible for the upcoming draft.

Probably a bit of coachspeak not wanting to give any bulletin board material but this morning on Golic and Wingo, Dabo also praised Jones as a great QB and said he would be a heck of a pro.

Bob Green
11-14-2018, 08:59 PM
I still think Alabama would crush a team from the 60s but maybe it's just because we are selecting more for the right athletes to play football more than anything else.



In the hypothetical game, are we using today's rules or 60s rules? I'll take Vince Lombardi and the 67 Packers over Alabama if 60s rules are in effect.

There have been a lot of changes benefiting offense over the years. In the 60s, offensive linemen could not use their hands at all. Alabama OL would be called for "holding" or "illegal use of the hands" on every play. Wide receivers can't block on the perimeter the way they do now...

Apples and Oranges...

Dukehky
11-14-2018, 10:13 PM
Jones graduates this year. He has been bothered by injuries the last two seasons.


If he has a reasonable expectation of going in the first couple of rounds, then he should go.

And I suspect he will and he will.

Top-tier programs face this all of the time. Duke hasn't had to face it because Duke hasn't produced NFL-level talent good enough to go pro after their redshirt junior year.

Jones and Joe Giles-Harris are good enough. Bad news in the short term but good news in the long term. If Duke is going to beat the big boys, they have to recruit with the big boys. Turning prospects into NFL players helps. A lot.

Yeah, Jones is gone.

JGH more than likely gone.

Gilbert is the only one tbd in my opinion, and I think he's likely to go.

elvis14
11-14-2018, 10:16 PM
In the hypothetical game, are we using today's rules or 60s rules? I'll take Vince Lombardi and the 67 Packers over Alabama if 60s rules are in effect.

There have been a lot of changes benefiting offense over the years. In the 60s, offensive linemen could not use their hands at all. Alabama OL would be called for "holding" or "illegal use of the hands" on every play. Wide receivers can't block on the perimeter the way they do now...

Apples and Oranges...

The linemen and WR would adjust, stop picking up those fouls and would still have 50lbs, speed and quickness over their opponents. Not only would the 67 Packers los, it wouldn't be close. Apples and bigger, faster stronger Apples.

sagegrouse
11-14-2018, 10:19 PM
yeah, if you look back at average line sizes back then, they were at least 40lbs/man lighter than today (especially OL)...and a lot of the guys now are much faster as well...I remember
that when I covered sports at Duke in 1970 or so, the average sized lineman of the day was in the 240 range...most OLs now average 300 or so...

Can't comment on the NFL (although I doubt all professional weight stats), but college in my day was a game where players had to play both offense and defense. It was not a game for 300 pounders.

ricks68
11-15-2018, 02:45 AM
In the hypothetical game, are we using today's rules or 60s rules? I'll take Vince Lombardi and the 67 Packers over Alabama if 60s rules are in effect.

There have been a lot of changes benefiting offense over the years. In the 60s, offensive linemen could not use their hands at all. Alabama OL would be called for "holding" or "illegal use of the hands" on every play. Wide receivers can't block on the perimeter the way they do now...

Apples and Oranges...

Actually, I think Alabama would lose due to attrition. I figure that by the end of the first quarter, the Packers defense would have already eaten at least Alabama's 1st and 2nd string offensive players. The rest of the Alabama team would then just have to adhere to the demands of the Packers' dessert requests for the remaining 3 quarters of the game, such as: "I'd prefer whipped cream and a cherry, please."

Forget the size and weight differences, those guys were just plain t o u g h.

ricks

Devilwin
11-15-2018, 07:34 AM
Actually, I think Alabama would lose due to attrition. I figure that by the end of the first quarter, the Packers defense would have already eaten at least Alabama's 1st and 2nd string offensive players. The rest of the Alabama team would then just have to adhere to the demands of the Packers' dessert requests for the remaining 3 quarters of the game, such as: "I'd prefer whipped cream and a cherry, please."

Forget the size and weight differences, those guys were just plain t o u g h.

ricks

I agree. Although bigger and faster, today's players are wimps compared to the 60's era Packers (and other teams.)
Ray Nitschke would lay these guys out..Bart Starr would cut these zone defenses to shreds.

Acymetric
11-15-2018, 09:31 AM
Yeah, Jones is gone.

JGH more than likely gone.

Gilbert is the only one tbd in my opinion, and I think he's likely to go.

Might depend on when he will be healthy enough to work out for teams/the combine. What is the timeline for his hip injury?


I agree. Although bigger and faster, today's players are wimps compared to the 60's era Packers (and other teams.)
Ray Nitschke would lay these guys out..Bart Starr would cut these zone defenses to shreds.

...If they could catch them.

Reilly
11-15-2018, 10:02 AM
Year – total team wins – QB rating (from www.sports-reference.com) - TD/Int

2008 – 4 wins – Thad 123 - 15/6
2009 – 5 wins – Thad 134.5 - 20/8
2010 – 3 wins – Sean 120.7 - 14/17
2011 – 3 wins – Sean 126.5 – 14/11
2012 – 6 wins – Sean 136.3 – 19/10
2013 – 10 wins – AB 128.2 – 13/13 [BC 153.6 – 13/6]
2014 – 9 wins – AB 116.7 – 19/8
2015 – 8 wins – Sirk 119 – 16/8
2016 – 4 wins – DJ 126.3 – 16/9
2017 – 7 wins – DJ 112 – 14/11
2018 – 7 wins – DJ 136.2 – 16/6

Can DJ beat Thad’s 20 TDs of 2009?
Can DJ beat Sean’s 136.3 rating of 2012?
Can 2018 match 2013’s 10 wins?
Is 11 wins even possible (have we been eliminated from the Coastal)?
If DJ makes the NFL, that’ll be pretty cool that in 8 of the 11 Cut years, Duke was primarily QB’d by a future NFL player (Thad x2; Sean x3; DJ x3). And yet we had our most wins (2013-14) with AB.

The team’s overall record these last three years is 18-17. That record, however, came in an 8-14 spurt and now a 10-3 run.

Acymetric
11-15-2018, 10:06 AM
Year – total team wins – QB rating (from www.sports-reference.com (http://www.sports-reference.com)) - TD/Int

2008 – 4 wins – Thad 123 - 15/6
2009 – 5 wins – Thad 134.5 - 20/8
2010 – 3 wins – Sean 120.7 - 14/17
2011 – 3 wins – Sean 126.5 – 14/11
2012 – 6 wins – Sean 136.3 – 19/10
2013 – 10 wins – AB 128.2 – 13/13
2014 – 9 wins – AB 116.7 – 19/8
2015 – 8 wins – Sirk 119 – 16/8
2016 – 4 wins – DJ 126.3 – 16/9
2017 – 7 wins – DJ 112 – 14/11
2018 – 7 wins – DJ 136.2 – 16/6

Can DJ beat Thad’s 20 TDs of 2009?
Can DJ beat Sean’s 136.3 rating of 2012?
Can 2018 match 2013’s 10 wins?
[B]Is 11 wins even possible (have we been eliminated from the Coastal)?
If DJ makes the NFL, that’ll be pretty cool that in 8 of the 11 Cut years, Duke was primarily QB’d by a future NFL player (Thad x2; Sean x3; DJ x3). And yet we had our most wins (2013-14) with AB.

The team’s overall record these last three years is 18-17. That record, however, came in an 8-14 spurt and now a 10-3 run.

That question cannot technically​ be answered until after this weekend. Until that time I choose to abstain.

Edit: Actually I believe we are officially eliminated from contention, but you have to go down a lot of tiebreaker rabbit hole scenarios to prove it. Short version: we don't hold tiebreaker advantage over anyone else in contention except for GT, and at best we could tie with Pitt for first so there is no way for us to win a tiebreaker.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-15-2018, 05:40 PM
Dabo's so funny - he refers to the opponents by their # and not name most of the time....not out of disrespect, that's Dabo being Dabo. Says a lot of great things about Jones.....in two riffs here: I don't think he figures out his name until his second comments on Jones.....but he has him high up the NFL draft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qSzc7u28-0

richmclean
11-15-2018, 07:43 PM
As a reference Jeff Boston played center as one of the Redskins Hogs in the 80s at 260. Russ Grimm HOFer was 290 at LG. Joe Jacoby was the only 300 pound LT Hog - at 300.

I dId post - knee surgery PT with Bostic after he retired. Should’ve been a color commentator very funny. He had lost 40 pounds after the NFL. Others like Mark May lost about the same or more.

budwom
11-16-2018, 09:03 AM
good time to insert a childhood chuckle...I once bought a pack of football cards (bubblegum and all) and one of the cards was that of Wayne Mulligan, former Clemson
center, played some in the pros. Under the summary of his feats, it said this (I still can't believe I remember this)....: "Wayne once blocked a punt which almost turned a game around."

sagegrouse
11-16-2018, 09:25 AM
As a reference Jeff Boston played center as one of the Redskins Hogs in the 80s at 260. Russ Grimm HOFer was 290 at LG. Joe Jacoby was the only 300 pound LT Hog - at 300.

I dId post - knee surgery PT with Bostic after he retired. Should’ve been a color commentator very funny. He had lost 40 pounds after the NFL. Others like Mark May lost about the same or more.

Jeff Bostic. Played at Greensboro Smith HS and then at Clemson. Now 60 YO -- yikes!!

Reilly
11-16-2018, 09:53 AM
... "Wayne once blocked a punt which almost turned a game around."

We could've used a somewhat similar sentiment for Duke defensive secondary players for a couple decades.

Pghdukie
11-16-2018, 10:06 AM
How many 15yd "Personal Fouls" do you think Mean Joe Greene would accumulate with today's rules ? How would the Steel Curtain stack up ?

budwom
11-16-2018, 11:46 AM
We could've used a somewhat similar sentiment for Duke defensive secondary players for a couple decades.

ain't that the truth...our improvement over the last decade has been rather dramatic...in years past (as you well know) all certain teams like FSU had to
do was get the ball to guys one on one with our secondary, and off they went. Now we can go 2-3 deep (when healthy) with guys who can actually run.
Remarkable and welcome change.

Devilwin
11-16-2018, 01:10 PM
The linemen and WR would adjust, stop picking up those fouls and would still have 50lbs, speed and quickness over their opponents. Not only would the 67 Packers los, it wouldn't be close. Apples and bigger, faster stronger Apples.

You underestimate the speed of the Packers. Their secondary had several fleet athletes, like Herb Adderly, Bob Jeter and Willie Wood. Lee Roy Caffey and Dave Robinson were as swift as any I've seen. and the receivers were speedy as well.
And Travis Williams was one of the best kick returners in history. Paul Hornung and Jim Taylor were fast and powerful runners, backed up by the elusive Elijah Pitts.
And Lombardi as coach..nuff said.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-16-2018, 09:23 PM
ain't that the truth...our improvement over the last decade has been rather dramatic...in years past (as you well know) all certain teams like FSU had to
do was get the ball to guys one on one with our secondary, and off they went. Now we can go 2-3 deep (when healthy) with guys who can actually run.
Remarkable and welcome change.

...and this year we had a third stringer put the Baylor game away with a pick six!!!

RaiderDevil
11-17-2018, 08:28 AM
This site showing BB as playing in one game: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BennBe20.htm

... and Cleveland covered the 5 point spread by winning 34-0: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/198710180cin.htm

Bennett was my great grandmother's brother's grandson. Makes us almost absolutely nothing. His grandfather has a building named after him at ECU.

Reilly
11-17-2018, 09:37 AM
Bennett was my great grandmother's brother's grandson. Makes us ...

Second cousin once removed (?): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin

brlftz
11-17-2018, 12:54 PM
This board really needs a way to add posts without moving the thread to the top so that people interested in the actual topic aren’t fooled by off topic conversation. Kind of like the old 4chan sage myth. I think the conversation is great and would hate to see it stifled, but I also hate how many times I get excited thinking there’s news and navigate my way there on my phone only to find a pun or some deep thought about beer.

Devilwin
11-17-2018, 12:54 PM
Knew Jeff Bostic in high school. Once saw him eat two large loaded pizzas at Bill's Pizza Pub in Greensboro...

budwom
11-17-2018, 01:17 PM
This board really needs a way to add posts without moving the thread to the top so that people interested in the actual topic aren’t fooled by off topic conversation. Kind of like the old 4chan sage myth. I think the conversation is great and would hate to see it stifled, but I also hate how many times I get excited thinking there’s news and navigate my way there on my phone only to find a pun or some deep thought about beer.

fair point, but the original question is pretty much unanswerable...Some NFL teams seem to always need QBs, but figuring out where Jones is going to end up is (at this point I would say) a matter of almost pure conjecture.
Even if some NFL team had its eye on Jones, they would be unlikely to tell anyone, because they tend to go Secret Squirrel when it comes to draft picks. If as you say you are "excited thinking there's news," I think it's fair to
say there isn't going to be any genuine (i.e. non fake!) news for some time...like months.

Reilly
11-17-2018, 01:57 PM
... hate how many times I get excited thinking there’s news and navigate my way there on my phone only to find a pun or some deep thought about beer.

If devildeac meets some untimely demise, I know where I'm sending the police.

dudog84
11-17-2018, 05:13 PM
fair point, but the original question is pretty much unanswerable...Some NFL teams seem to always need QBs, but figuring out where Jones is going to end up is (at this point I would say) a matter of almost pure conjecture.
Even if some NFL team had its eye on Jones, they would be unlikely to tell anyone, because they tend to go Secret Squirrel when it comes to draft picks. If as you say you are "excited thinking there's news," I think it's fair to
say there isn't going to be any genuine (i.e. non fake!) news for some time...like months.

I would guess about 6 weeks. I would expect a decision/announcement within days of (after) our bowl game. I agree nothing will be said by Jones/Cutcliffe (the only ones that matter) before then.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-17-2018, 05:56 PM
This board really needs a way to add posts without moving the thread to the top so that people interested in the actual topic aren’t fooled by off topic conversation. Kind of like the old 4chan sage myth. I think the conversation is great and would hate to see it stifled, but I also hate how many times I get excited thinking there’s news and navigate my way there on my phone only to find a pun or some deep thought about beer.
You can change the display style so it is shown in branches rather than linearly by time posted. At least you used to be able to do that. Explore your settings!

Devilwin
11-17-2018, 10:42 PM
He will be back at Duke. He's a fine young qb, but tends to get a lot of passes batted down because he tends to throw flat. And the NFL doesn't like that much..

OldPhiKap
11-17-2018, 10:54 PM
He will be back at Duke. He's a fine young qb, but tends to get a lot of passes batted down because he tends to throw flat. And the NFL doesn't like that much..

Maybe. The pro offensive lines don’t always get ripped like we did against Clemson tonight.

And that is not meant as a slight on us btw. Clemson’s front four is likely first team all conference. Give Daniel pro receivers and a pro line.

devildeac
11-17-2018, 11:43 PM
If devildeac meets some untimely demise, I know where I'm sending the police.

I'm still around after a wedding this afternoon and reception tonight. Might have to change my screen name/address/etc...

HereBeforeCoachK
11-18-2018, 08:09 AM
Maybe. The pro offensive lines don’t always get ripped like we did against Clemson tonight.

And that is not meant as a slight on us btw. Clemson’s front four is likely first team all conference. Give Daniel pro receivers and a pro line.

Actually, the passes getting batted down were on the plays where our O line was holding them off...and that's been a thing all season. No, our O line is not great...but our QB and especially our receivers have botched a lot of plays when the O line performed perfectly. This cuts both ways. Over throws, drops, holding the ball too long, drops, failing the progressions, and did I mention drops? We've probably left 70 points on the field due to this over the season...and I mean 70 easy points. If we could combine Garner's speed and Bobo's hands, we'd have all world WR. The fact is, had the skill people executed those, our entire perception of the O line would be different. And some of the play calling we don't like fall on the QB making decisions on the RPO as well.

We'll see how it plays out in the coming months and years, but I think he would be well served with another year with Cut.

budwom
11-18-2018, 08:18 AM
I would guess about 6 weeks. I would expect a decision/announcement within days of (after) our bowl game. I agree nothing will be said by Jones/Cutcliffe (the only ones that matter) before then.

yup, I was thinking more in terms of news on which NFL teams might want him, and they tend to keep that info very close to the vest...blatherings of ESPN notwithstanding.
Quite a few people seem to think Jones will graduate and leave, but it's not a given (yet).

CameronBornAndBred
11-18-2018, 08:54 AM
Even though there were no TDs last night, I think Jones had to have impressed scouts watching. His passes were almost all on target. Hard to blame a QB if his receiver drops the ball that hits his hands. (Or helmet).
He impressed me with his scrambling...almost Newtonesque in a few of those plays. He was fun to watch, and played like a true leader, even when banged up.

budwom
11-18-2018, 09:00 AM
Sure would be nice if Garner could catch a ball....next year he'll have to as we lose Rahming, Lloyd and Taylor at the WR position...can't afford to have a guy who gets open but can't catch.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-18-2018, 10:14 AM
Sure would be nice if Garner could catch a ball...next year he'll have to as we lose Rahming, Lloyd and Taylor at the WR position...can't afford to have a guy who gets open but can't catch.

Garner can get open, especially deep, much better than Rahming or Lloyd.....someone needs to coach him up on the attitude of coming down with the catch, because that is all about concentration and attitude. What bothers me about Garner is he doesn't seem to mind dropping wide open sure touchdowns. Maybe I'm reading too much into body language.....

But a healthy Young and a Garner who can catch would be far more dynamic than the combo of TJ and Lloyd, if not as dependable.

JasonEvans
11-18-2018, 04:19 PM
He will be back at Duke. He's a fine young qb, but tends to get a lot of passes batted down because he tends to throw flat. And the NFL doesn't like that much..

He is graduating and is projected as a first round pick (and I agree with folks who think he looked good yesterday against the best D in the country). There is only the tiniest of chance he comes back. I'll be really stunned if he does.

budwom
11-18-2018, 04:24 PM
^ I don't think he comes back either, but I'm skeptical all of this first round talk. I'm sure he'd get drafted, but there are quite a few other capable QBs out there...

DU82
11-18-2018, 04:59 PM
I would guess about 6 weeks. I would expect a decision/announcement within days of (after) our bowl game. I agree nothing will be said by Jones/Cutcliffe (the only ones that matter) before then.

I think we'll know on Saturday, when the seniors are announced. If Daniel and/or Joe (and Mark) are introduced with the rest of the senior class, there's a message.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-18-2018, 05:02 PM
I think we'll know on Saturday, when the seniors are announced. If Daniel and/or Joe (and Mark) are introduced with the rest of the senior class, there's a message.

I don't think the decision will have been made by then. And I don't think he's ready, though I think he'll probably go. I know most around here think he'll go, but I see a lot of over throws when he does have time, some bad reads on the RPO, and not feeling the pocket very well, as well as a long wind up delivery. Seems like a great young man, and I'll certainly be happy for him when he signs a nice contract. I think it should be in a year and a half, not half a year.

jimsumner
11-18-2018, 05:17 PM
I think we'll know on Saturday, when the seniors are announced. If Daniel and/or Joe (and Mark) are introduced with the rest of the senior class, there's a message.

Duke lists the Senior Day honorees in the media notes distributed Tuesday.

Not etched in stone. I've seen guys introduced as seniors who came back and guys not introduced as seniors who did not come back.

But it should provide some useful information.

That said, I would be surprised if any of Jones, Giles-Harris or Gilbert are listed as seniors. I think those decisions will be finalized after the end of regular season but before the bowl game.

Keep in mind, that CFB now has a December signing date and Duke would like some clarity on scholarships available for the high-school class of 2019.

wavedukefan70s
11-18-2018, 07:09 PM
from CB&B's link (thanks for finding!):

"In the 1950s, the average offensive lineman was 6-foot-2, 234 pounds."



Three years ago, Alabama's offensive line averaged 311 pounds:

https://bamahammer.com/2015/09/05/alabamas-linemen-literally-size-truck/


I'm no scientist, but if force depends on mass and speed then you have an idea of how much force is created when the modern offensive and defensive linemen smack each other every play.

What a difference .we have kids on highschool b teams that big.
These kids are getting bigger stronger and faster every year.

wavedukefan70s
11-18-2018, 07:11 PM
I don't think the decision will have been made by then. And I don't think he's ready, though I think he'll probably go. I know most around here think he'll go, but I see a lot of over throws when he does have time, some bad reads on the RPO, and not feeling the pocket very well, as well as a long wind up delivery. Seems like a great young man, and I'll certainly be happy for him when he signs a nice contract. I think it should be in a year and a half, not half a year.

I'd love to see him at Dallas. I believe he could be a very good qb at the next level.

Reilly
11-18-2018, 07:20 PM
With respect to DJ going pro now, think back to Christian McCaffrey's decision to skip the bowl game ... and Sean Renfree getting hurt badly in his last game in a Duke uniform ...

I think DJ would play in a bowl game (and hope Cut -- as he usually does -- limits his QB's exposure via various means) ...

duke2x
11-18-2018, 07:35 PM
fair point, but the original question is pretty much unanswerable...Some NFL teams seem to always need QBs, but figuring out where Jones is going to end up is (at this point I would say) a matter of almost pure conjecture.
Even if some NFL team had its eye on Jones, they would be unlikely to tell anyone, because they tend to go Secret Squirrel when it comes to draft picks. If as you say you are "excited thinking there's news," I think it's fair to
say there isn't going to be any genuine (i.e. non fake!) news for some time...like months.

Steve Logan suggested yesterday that this might the most QB-unfriendly draft in a very long time. There's not a lot of teams that need a QB this year. The link below suggests scouts think he's coming back (which I'll believe when it happens):

http://walterfootball.com/draft2019QB.php

HereBeforeCoachK
11-19-2018, 07:25 AM
Steve Logan suggested yesterday that this might the most QB-unfriendly draft in a very long time. There's not a lot of teams that need a QB this year. The link below suggests scouts think he's coming back (which I'll believe when it happens):

http://walterfootball.com/draft2019QB.php

Yeah, that link has Jones listed three slots ahead of Will Grier. I don't see that at all.

budwom
11-19-2018, 09:25 AM
Yeah, that link has Jones listed three slots ahead of Will Grier. I don't see that at all.

yeah, I agree. I do think he's likely to leave since he graduates next month...at least that list had him going in rounds 1-3, not the "first round lock" kind of talk (which I don't buy at all).

jv001
11-19-2018, 09:57 AM
yeah, I agree. I do think he's likely to leave since he graduates next month...at least that list had him going in rounds 1-3, not the "first round lock" kind of talk (which I don't buy at all).

If Daniel does leave( I think he will), who is next in the pecking order to replace him at QB? GoDuke!

CameronBornAndBred
11-19-2018, 10:06 AM
If Daniel does leave( I think he will), who is next in the pecking order to replace him at QB? GoDuke!

I would think the immediate replacement would be Quentin Harris. He has winning game experience, which is nice to know. I think who we see on the field next year depends on the spring competition between him and Gunnar Holmberg. Given the 4 game redshirt cushion, I'm a little surprised we haven't seen Holmberg at all yet.

Acymetric
11-19-2018, 10:08 AM
I would think the immediate replacement would be Quentin Harris. He has winning game experience, which is nice to know. I think who we see on the field next year depends on the spring competition between him and Gunnar Holmberg. Given the 4 game redshirt cushion, I'm a little surprised we haven't seen Holmberg at all yet.

Wow, for some reason I spent the whole season thinking Harris was a redshirt Senior. Completely forgot we would have him back next year!

budwom
11-19-2018, 10:27 AM
Wow, for some reason I spent the whole season thinking Harris was a redshirt Senior. Completely forgot we would have him back next year!

Harris is a redshirt junior, so I guess there's a possibility he could be gone next year, as he can probably graduate this year or next summer....I imagine he and Cut will have to have a conversation....if
Holmberg were to become the heir apparent (about which I have zero info) he might want to depart...

jimsumner
11-19-2018, 10:40 AM
Harris is a redshirt junior, so I guess there's a possibility he could be gone next year, as he can probably graduate this year or next summer...I imagine he and Cut will have to have a conversation...if
Holmberg were to become the heir apparent (about which I have zero info) he might want to depart...

AFAIK Duke is not recruiting any quarterbacks in the class of 2019. Should Jones leave, Duke would only have Harris, Katrenick and Holmberg as recruited QBs. That's cutting it a bit thin.

Cut has thus far been less than enthusiastic about the grad-student-transfer market. But this might be a situation where he would reconsider.

Acymetric
11-19-2018, 11:09 AM
AFAIK Duke is not recruiting any quarterbacks in the class of 2019. Should Jones leave, Duke would only have Harris, Katrenick and Holmberg as recruited QBs. That's cutting it a bit thin.

Cut has thus far been less than enthusiastic about the grad-student-transfer market. But this might be a situation where he would reconsider.

Bracey as emergency QB ;)

HereBeforeCoachK
11-19-2018, 12:18 PM
AFAIK Duke is not recruiting any quarterbacks in the class of 2019. Should Jones leave, Duke would only have Harris, Katrenick and Holmberg as recruited QBs. That's cutting it a bit thin.

Cut has thus far been less than enthusiastic about the grad-student-transfer market. But this might be a situation where he would reconsider.

If Jones goes to the NFL this season, we'll need to figure out something. In an article, Trevor Lawrence mentioned he knows Cut and has tremendous respect for him, but when he got to 5* status, Duke was just not in the mix. Duke may not be that realistic now for 4 and 5* at other positions, but maybe at QB Duke can be. Perhaps Cut can recruit to some 4 and 5 star QBs - saying "look what we did with a 2* guy.

chrishoke
11-19-2018, 12:39 PM
The heels seem to be a magnet for 4 star QBs. They currently have three and are a leading candidate to land the former Clemson 4 star QB tansfer. WTH

jimsumner
11-19-2018, 12:46 PM
It's interesting that Duke doesn't seem to be interested in Bryant.

Perhaps, Cut thinks Jones will be back. Or Duke did approach Bryant and was rebuffed. Or Cut is comfortable with the options he'll have at his disposal next season.

CameronBornAndBred
11-19-2018, 12:46 PM
The heels seem to be a magnet for 4 star QBs. They currently have three and are a leading candidate to land the former Clemson 4 star QB tansfer. WTH

Who on the coaching staff turns them into turnover machines?

HereBeforeCoachK
11-19-2018, 12:52 PM
It's interesting that Duke doesn't seem to be interested in Bryant.

Perhaps, Cut thinks Jones will be back. Or Duke did approach Bryant and was rebuffed. Or Cut is comfortable with the options he'll have at his disposal next season.

That's a good question, and I have a guess.....and that is Bryant was not interested in Duke. As we learned with comments from Trevor Lawrence, once a QB goes to 4 or 5 stars, Duke tends to drop out. This is even true when the QB knows and likes Cut, which is the case with Lawrence. Cut needs to change that, and 2* Daniel Jones may be his Frankenstein to do that.

I do not think it's a case of Cut being comfortable with Duke's non-Jones options next season. I mean, I would love to think that, but I don't.

CameronBornAndBred
11-19-2018, 01:20 PM
That's a good question, and I have a guess....and that is Bryant was not interested in Duke. As we learned with comments from Trevor Lawrence, once a QB goes to 4 or 5 stars, Duke tends to drop out. This is even true when the QB knows and likes Cut, which is the case with Lawrence. Cut needs to change that, and 2* Daniel Jones may be his Frankenstein to do that.

I do not think it's a case of Cut being comfortable with Duke's non-Jones options next season. I mean, I would love to think that, but I don't.

Holmberg was a 4* depending on the recruiting service. (ESPN was one)

jimsumner
11-19-2018, 01:50 PM
Holmberg was a 4* depending on the recruiting service. (ESPN was one)

Chazz Surrat and Jack Sears both committed to Duke as four-stars before de-committing.

CameronBornAndBred
11-19-2018, 01:52 PM
Chazz Surrat and Jack Sears both committed to Duke as four-stars before de-committing.

And those two make me giggle every time I read their names. :D

TruBlu
11-19-2018, 02:48 PM
The heels seem to be a magnet for 4 star QBs. They currently have three and are a leading candidate to land the former Clemson 4 star QB tansfer. WTH

And just think, if they had a few 5 star QB's maybe they could have won 3 games this year.:D

budwom
11-19-2018, 03:03 PM
Lots of possible coaching changes this year...that and the new, somewhat more player friendly NCAA could = a transfer, who knows?
Maybe Wohlabaugh keeps us tuned in to any tOSU guys who are looking for a new home...

HereBeforeCoachK
11-19-2018, 04:10 PM
Holmberg was a 4* depending on the recruiting service. (ESPN was one)

I had not seen anything but 3* - but glad someone liked him that much. Cut targeted him for 3 years.....so maybe he is the man...and with the redshirt rule, a few snaps against Clemson, for example, might've helped development.

DU82
11-19-2018, 06:00 PM
Would the fourth string quarterback make the trip to Clemson?

jv001
11-20-2018, 10:55 AM
Bracey as emergency QB ;)

If he doesn't drop the snap. :cool: GoDuke!

HereBeforeCoachK
11-20-2018, 11:37 AM
If he doesn't drop the snap. :cool: GoDuke!

..man I TRIED to spork that.......:cool:

devildeac
11-20-2018, 11:54 AM
..man I TRIED to spork that....:cool:

Likewise.

"You must spread some Comments around before commenting on jv001 again."

OZZIE4DUKE
11-20-2018, 11:59 AM
..man I TRIED to spork that...:cool:


Likewise.

"You must spread some Comments around before commenting on jv001 again."
Got y’all covered! LGD GTHc!

HereBeforeCoachK
11-20-2018, 03:44 PM
Got y’all covered! LGD GTHc!

Thanks...I was trying to come up with some kind of Chazz Surratt meme to go with it...but the original post from jv001 was just perfect as is...:cool:

chrishoke
11-26-2018, 04:48 PM
Daniel Jones, projected as a first round draft choice, fails to even make Honorable Mention ALL ACC. Bizarro World.

arnie
11-26-2018, 05:09 PM
Daniel Jones, projected as a first round draft choice, fails to even make Honorable Mention ALL ACC. Bizarro World.
And even Rahming made 3rd team🤡

jwillfan
11-26-2018, 05:10 PM
Daniel Jones, projected as a first round draft choice, fails to even make Honorable Mention ALL ACC. Bizarro World.

Agree, totally bizarre. Saw the tweet from the Duke Football feed reporting on who did make it - expected a thread on that - and was puzzled that I didn't see Daniel Jones there. A big disconnect between his actual collegiate performance and his pro prospects? Too many drops? There must be some advance analytics there that accounts for balls thrown well that are deemed "catch-able" to augment completion percentage. Smarter folks than me.... (yes, I know, low bar!)

jimsumner
11-26-2018, 06:17 PM
Agree, totally bizarre. Saw the tweet from the Duke Football feed reporting on who did make it - expected a thread on that - and was puzzled that I didn't see Daniel Jones there. A big disconnect between his actual collegiate performance and his pro prospects? Too many drops? There must be some advance analytics there that accounts for balls thrown well that are deemed "catch-able" to augment completion percentage. Smarter folks than me... (yes, I know, low bar!)

We have official stats on turnovers, missed place-kicks, errors, wild pitches, passed balls, yellow cards, red cards, et. al.

So, why not official stats on dropped passes? Might require an official scorer's decision, like hit/error or wild pitch/passed ball. But I guarantee you that every football team keeps statistics on dropped passes, missed tackles, missed blocks, shoes improperly tied, darn near everything. But standardizing this sort of thing would give us a more accurate read on say, Daniel Jones versus Ryan Finley, adjusting for dropped passes.


It is the age of analytics, after all.