A TOAST to the Grammar Police!

[EarlJam]

I dedicate the following to the aggressive **Grammar Police on this board:

O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.
I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was r danieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs psas it on !!


-EarlJam

**Disclaimer - EarlJam completely understands, truly appreciates and takes no offense at the grammar policing that goes on at DBR. EarlJam is always in need of a good proofreader, as details are not his strength. EarlJam just saw this and thought immediately of the DBR Grammar Cops.

[Shammrog]

I dedicate the following to the aggressive **Grammar Police on this board:

O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.
I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was r danieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs psas it on !!


-EarlJam

**Disclaimer - EarlJam completely understands, truly appreciates and takes no offense at the grammar policing that goes on at DBR. EarlJam is always in need of a good proofreader, as details are not his strength. EarlJam just saw this and thought immediately of the DBR Grammar Cops.

To: The Grammar Police

We're not as dumb as you think we is!

Signed,

Shammrog and EarlJam

[EarlJam]

To: The Grammar Police

We're not as dumb as you think we is!

Signed,

Shammrog and EarlJam

Yeah! I here you and Aman to that!

Seriously, one of the many words I commonly misspell is....."Grammar." I think I have rectumfied this situation but for the longest time, I would spell it, "Grammer."

-EARL..................JAM

[billybreen]

I dedicate the following to the aggressive **Grammar Police on this board:

O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.
I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was r danieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs psas it on !!

Fcuk, that's amazing.

[snowdenscold]

I dedicate the following to the aggressive **Grammar Police on this board:

O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.
I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was r danieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs psas it on !!


-EarlJam

**Disclaimer - EarlJam completely understands, truly appreciates and takes no offense at the grammar policing that goes on at DBR. EarlJam is always in need of a good proofreader, as details are not his strength. EarlJam just saw this and thought immediately of the DBR Grammar Cops.

I saw this a couple years ago - still think it's great.

However, a real toast goes out to the grammar police on the most recent episode of The Office - "whoever" vs. "whomever", whee!

[wilson]

I dedicate the following to the aggressive **Grammar Police on this board:

O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.
I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was r danieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs psas it on !!


-EarlJam


**Disclaimer - EarlJam completely understands, truly appreciates and takes no offense at the grammar policing that goes on at DBR. EarlJam is always in need of a good proofreader, as details are not his strength. EarlJam just saw this and thought immediately of the DBR Grammar Cops.

As a grammar officer of long standing and distinguished service, I resemble this remark.

[hc5duke]

Yeah! I here you and Aman to that!

Seriously, one of the many words I commonly misspell is....."Grammar." I think I have rectumfied this situation but for the longest time, I would spell it, "Grammer."

-EARL..................JAM

Misspelling is another word that is mispelled allot, along with grammer. Its not that hard two take the time end get it's correct spelling, weather or not your to busy. I wish they're was a more polite way of telling people that their spelling things incorrectly, then pointing it out in an asinine post, but some times its necessary, even if I feel badly about it. I'm not sure if the casualty of the bored may be the reason words are continuously mispelled, but I do no it makes me want too kick them in the prostrate.

There, according to Firefox, I only have two misspelled words in the entire paragraph! :D Fore some reason know I'm hungry for some deserts through...

[OZZIE4DUKE]

it makes me want too kick them in the prostrate.



Yeah, you and Andy Sipowicz. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.channel4.com/more4/shows/n/nypdblue/gallery/images/sipowicz_384x350.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.channel4.com/more4/shows/n/nypdblue/gallery/index.html&h=350&w=384&sz=12&tbnid=2yWFGpcJ2bwTiM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dandy%2Bsipowicz%26um%3D1&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2

[BluDevilGal]

Wow, that's so cool how easy it is to read.

[BluDevilGal]

Misspelling is another word that is mispelled allot, along with grammer. Its not that hard two take the time end get it's correct spelling, weather or not your to busy. I wish they're was a more polite way of telling people that their spelling things incorrectly, then pointing it out in an asinine post, but some times its necessary, even if I feel badly about it. I'm not sure if the casualty of the bored may be the reason words are continuously mispelled, but I do no it makes me want too kick them in the prostrate.

There, according to Firefox, I only have two misspelled words in the entire paragraph! :D Fore some reason know I'm hungry for some deserts through...

Wow, that made me twitch so much! I don't claim to be a good speller, but grammar mistakes like those really get to me.

[colchar]

Wow, that made me twitch so much! I don't claim to be a good speller, but grammar mistakes like those really get to me.

The one that truly, and I do mean truly, drives me to distraction is the saying "I could care less." I want to claw out the eyes of everyone I hear saying that.

[EarlJam]

The one that truly, and I do mean truly, drives me to distraction is the saying "I could care less." I want to claw out the eyes of everyone I hear saying that.

Agreed on that one.

This reminds me of a good line I heard while watching The 40-Year-Old-Virgin the other day: "I'd rather fcuk shards of glass!"

-EarlJam

[DevilAlumna]

O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.
I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was r danieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs psas it on !!


Not to burst anyone's bubble, but this only works because the first and last letters of every word are correct to the intended spelling of the word.

If the letters were in fact distributed randomly within the word, this would be much less intelligible.

[feldspar]

Shouldn't it be "A TSOAT to the Grammar Police"?

[feldspar]

Misspelling is another word that is mispelled allot, along with grammer. Its not that hard two take the time end get it's correct spelling, weather or not your to busy. I wish they're was a more polite way of telling people that their spelling things incorrectly, then pointing it out in an asinine post, but some times its necessary, even if I feel badly about it. I'm not sure if the casualty of the bored may be the reason words are continuously mispelled, but I do no it makes me want too kick them in the prostrate.

There, according to Firefox, I only have two misspelled words in the entire paragraph! :D Fore some reason know I'm hungry for some deserts through...

Somewhere, Jumbo is writhing in pain. :)

[-jk]

O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.

Just for fun, by the rules of this idea, a snip of Al Featherston, DBR, 10/29/07 (as interpreted by this (http://www.stevesachs.com/jumbler.cgi) site):

At hlfaimte, mkie kerszkzwyi took the mpnohocrie and tkeald to the cowrd aubot the taem. He was pnmipug up the ceaizrs and ecionurngag the sedtutns to mkae a cmemntmoit of sropupt to tihs taem. In the curose of his seceph, his etuhssanim for tihs dkue taem cmae toghurh.

From Cambridge (http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde/), a rather interesting discussion of the whole thing.


Clive Tooth has found what may be most ambiguous jumbled sentence (using words like "salt" which becomes "slat" when transposed)

"The sprehas had ponits and patles"

This might come out as...

The sherpas had pitons and plates.
The shapers had points and pleats.
The seraphs had pintos and petals.
The sphaers had pinots and palets.
The sphears had potins and peltas.

Clive lists some of the more obscure words in this set of possible readings:

palets: paleae (a part of a grass flower)
peltas: shields
pinots: grapes
potins: copper alloys
sphaers, sphears: both old form of 'spheres'

-jk

[snowdenscold]

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but this only works because the first and last letters of every word are correct to the intended spelling of the word.

If the letters were in fact distributed randomly within the word, this would be much less intelligible.

I don't think anyone's bubble was burst - the message also says this in the middle of it:

"the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it"

[DevilAlumna]

I don't think anyone's bubble was burst - the message also says this in the middle of it:

"the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it"

D'oh! My bad....

From -jk's post, I want that Clive Tooth guy on my Scrabble team! :-)

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

The one that truly, and I do mean truly, drives me to distraction is the saying "I could care less." I want to claw out the eyes of everyone I hear saying that.

Oh FINALLY! A kindred spirit!
In second place comes "I feel badly". And a close third is "This food is healthy"!
I doubt many folks would have eyes left if the grammar police ever turned me loose.

Go ahead, Throaty....you can just smack me. Bless your heart.;)
Love, Ima

[snowdenscold]

And a close third is "This food is healthy"!


Usage note from dictionary.com:

Usage Note: The distinction in meaning between healthy ("possessing good health") and healthful ("conducive to good health") was ascribed to the two terms only as late as the 1880s. This distinction, though tenaciously supported by some critics, is belied by citational evidence—healthy has been used to mean "healthful" since the 16th century.

Click here (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/healthy) to read the rest (didn't want to copy too much)

[wilson]

I get irritated when people use the defense that words like "irregardless" and "judgement" (rather than the proper "judgment") are in the dictionary. Yes, they are in the dictionary, but only because lexicographers have given up in the face of widespread, obstinate stupidity (for that matter, shame on the lexicographers for doing such a thing).

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

That eases my botheration.....a tad.;)
Love, Ima

[billybreen]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the worst travesty, foisted on the world by idiot sportscasters who hate language: untracked. As in, "he's been having a bad game and needs to get untracked if they hope to get back in this thing." It's clearly an eggcorn (http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/) for "on track," and it wounds my soul.

[colchar]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the worst travesty, foisted on the world by idiot sportscasters who hate language: untracked. As in, "he's been having a bad game and needs to get untracked if they hope to get back in this thing." It's clearly an eggcorn (http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/) for "on track," and it wounds my soul.

Seems that one started back in 1927:

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002148.html

[colchar]

The other one that truly gets me is when somesays aks (or axe) when they mean ask. I know Throaty will weigh in and tell us that that is technically correct because it was used a couple of centuries ago but I will bet every dollar I've ever earned that not one of the ignorant fools who use that expression today have any knowledge of its history. They are simply mispronouncing yet another word in their ongoing attempt to establish being ignorant as acceptable/cool.

[hc5duke]

The other one that truly gets me is when somesays aks (or axe) when they mean ask. I know Throaty will weigh in and tell us that that is technically correct because it was used a couple of centuries ago but I will bet every dollar I've ever earned that not one of the ignorant fools who use that expression today have any knowledge of its history. They are simply mispronouncing yet another word in their ongoing attempt to establish being ignorant as acceptable/cool.

In Futurama, it was (will be?) revealed that "ask" is an obsolete pronunciation of the word from the 2nd millennium, and "ax" is the proper pronunciation in the future. These axers may not be history buffs, but maybe they are just ahead of the curve :rolleyes:

[TillyGalore]

My pet peeves are:

Norf Carolina
Might could as in, "I might could do that".

Not to copy Colchar, but I'll bet Throaty will remind me that "might could" is a North Carolina colloquialism. But it still bugs me.

[billybreen]

Not to copy Colchar, but I'll bet Throaty will remind me that "might could" is a North Carolina colloquialism. But it still bugs me.

We are attacking Throaty where it hurts, in the wallet. He made the horrible life choice of basing a career on these linguistic oddities, so our desire for homogenization is a direct threat to his job security.

(I'm just trying to draw him back into the conversation)

[hc5duke]

My pet peeves are:

Norf Carolina
Might could as in, "I might could do that".

Not to copy Colchar, but I'll bet Throaty will remind me that "might could" is a North Carolina colloquialism. But it still bugs me.

IANAL(inguist), but IIRC replacing "th" with "f/v" is a vestige of some local dialect of British English from the colonial era. I'm pretty sure that this is done in Cockney as well as Southern dialects and Black English. It's like how in the U.S. you only expect southerners to say "reckon", whereas it's part of everyday language in the U.K. (I think). It has been a while since I took a linguistics course (6 years to be exact), so I could be completely wrong of course.

[TillyGalore]

IANAL(inguist), but IIRC replacing "th" with "f/v" is a vestige of some local dialect of British English from the colonial era. I'm pretty sure that this is done in Cockney as well as Southern dialects and Black English. It's like how in the U.S. you only expect southerners to say "reckon", whereas it's part of everyday language in the U.K. (I think). It has been a while since I took a linguistics course (6 years to be exact), so I could be completely wrong of course.

I have no doubt you are correct. Still don't like it. I'm stubborn, what can I say?

Didn't realize that "reckon" is used in the U.K. I reckon I learned something new today.

[wilson]

Norf Carolina


My high school guidance counselor would tell you that we're currently wrapping up the month of "Optober." That one always really ground my gears. Of course, this really was just symptomatic of my deep disdain for her. Something about being demonstrably more intelligent than someone with that much bearing upon my future, who also didn't even think about trying to act like she liked me, really never sat well.
Also, she was a dead ringer for "Big Momma," the Martin Lawrence character:

http://www.preview-online.com/may_june00/pmat/images/big_mommas/p47.gif

Seriously.

[hc5duke]

My high school guidance counselor would tell you that we're currently wrapping up the month of "Optober."
An assistant principal at my high school said "thee-ate-er"


That one always really ground my gears. Of course, this really was just symptomatic of my deep disdain for her. Something about being demonstrably more intelligent than someone with that much bearing upon my future, who also didn't even think about trying to act like she liked me, really never sat well.
ditto.



Also, she was a dead ringer for "Big Momma," the Martin Lawrence character:


Seriously.

I think the site doesn't let you hot-link, you have to copy-paste the directory (http://www.preview-online.com/may_june00/pmat/images/big_mommas/) and click on p47.gif

[wilson]

Right. That site won't let me link. Presumably, at least some people know what Big Momma looks like. The rest of you, do a Google Images search for Big Momma. That's also what Dr. Scruggs looks like (yes, my worthless counselor was Dr. Scruggs...talk about grinding my gears).

[billybreen]

Right. That site won't let me link. Presumably, at least some people know what Big Momma looks like. The rest of you, do a Google Images search for Big Momma. That's also what Dr. Scruggs looks like (yes, my worthless counselor was Dr. Scruggs...talk about grinding my gears).

http://www.ryanbreen.com:81/p47.gif

[throatybeard]

Oh FINALLY! A kindred spirit!
In second place comes (a) "I feel badly". And a close third is (b)"This food is healthy"!
I doubt many folks would have eyes left if the grammar police ever turned me loose.

Go ahead, Throaty....you can just smack me. Bless your heart.;)
Love, Ima

(a) Feel is a linking verb. Linking verbs have idiosyncratic selectional restrictions about what subject complements they can take, but all can take ADJ phrase complements. What has happened with "I feel badly" is that at the syntactic level, badly has been reinterpreted as an ADJ because we still have a few Germanic -ly suffixed adjectives corresponding to -lich in German. (Heavenly, earthly, brotherly, &c). So in other words, "I feel badly" is evidence of influence from Common Germanic and Old English in present-Day English. Badly is not acting as an ADV in the syntax.

(b) This is even easier to dispute. There's an ellipted presentational phrase, "for people." It's omitted because it's so obvious that it doesn't need to be uttered. The food isn't, presumably, healthy for care bears or for paramecia; it's healthy for people. An equally viable interpretation would be that a postmodifying infinitive clause has also been left out, "for people to eat."

If you're going to judge other people, it would be good to learn about the subject which you're judging them on first.

[throatybeard]

The other one that truly gets me is when somesays aks (or axe) when they mean ask. I know Throaty will weigh in and tell us that that is technically correct because it was used a couple of centuries ago but I will bet every dollar I've ever earned that not one of the ignorant fools who use that expression today have any knowledge of its history. They are simply mispronouncing yet another word in their ongoing attempt to establish being ignorant as acceptable/cool.

It's becoming to exhausting to combat the social prejudices of posters in this thread, but I'll oblige with the explanation of why this happens anyway.

[aks] is a relic form. It lives on in African American English because much of the initial linguistic contact between slaves and and English speakers was with English speakers who preserved the archaic form. In Middle English, there were two competing forms of the infinitive (yes, we had a real infinitive back then), ascian and acsian. Today's ask is derived from the former, which was favored by the prescriptivists in the 18th century. [aks] has lived on as a relic form in AAE, and a few Anglicist varieties.

As for Colchar's illogical assertion in bold, people don't need metalinguistic knowledge of a feature to keep doing it. I ask lay audiences how many vowels are in American English. They never produce an accurate answer. Yet, they use all of these vowels everyday.

[throatybeard]

We are attacking Throaty where it hurts, in the wallet. He made the horrible life choice of basing a career on these linguistic oddities, so our desire for homogenization is a direct threat to his job security.

(I'm just trying to draw him back into the conversation)

I'd have a job anyway, because someone has to teach English Ed majors so that they actually know something about how English works and they don't end up like you guys. No offense.

HC5 is right about the interdentals. There is a LOT of variation with those. They are atypical sounds in the worlds languages and among the last sounds to be acquired in English even in varieties in which they're common.

Might could is one of many multiple modals in Southern English and in AAE. Yes, prescriptive writing style manuals frown on them, but they've been used for hundreds of years in Scots. They're extremely useful because they express grammatical moods which we have lost in the morphology of the main verb. (In fact, out main verb has lost mood entirely, with the exception of irreal were as in "If I were rich." Multiple modals (like all our uses of single modals) are a syntactic solution to the loss of inflectional morphology, the optative mood in this case, which is used for fine gradations of possibility, volition, &c.

[EarlJam]

It's becoming to exhausting to combat the social prejudices of posters in this thread, but I'll oblige with the explanation of why this happens anyway.

[aks] is a relic form. It lives on in African American English because much of the initial linguistic contact between slaves and and English speakers was with English speakers who preserved the archaic form. In Middle English, there were two competing forms of the infinitive (yes, we had a real infinitive back then), ascian and acsian. Today's ask is derived from the former, which was favored by the prescriptivists in the 18th century. [aks] has lived on as a relic form in AAE, and a few Anglicist varieties.

As for Colchar's illogical assertion in bold, people don't need metalinguistic knowledge of a feature to keep doing it. I ask lay audiences how many vowels are in American English. They never produce an accurate answer. Yet, the use all of these vowels everyday.


:eek:

awesome.

-EarlJam

[Shammrog]

:eek:

awesome.

-EarlJam

Awesome indeed - I am (seriously) amazed by the knowledge you can get here sometimes.

(Still, I think saying "aks" makes you sound like an idiot; even if you are not one. Enough time has now passed that "ask" could/should successfully be adopted._

(Ditto for "might could." I hate that one.)

(Did I mention "ain't"? Reeeeeeddddddneck!!!)

[hurleyfor3]

As for Colchar's illogical assertion in bold, people don't need metalinguistic knowledge of a feature to keep doing it. I ask lay audiences how many vowels are in American English. They never produce an accurate answer. Yet, the use all of these vowels everyday.


OK, now your [sic] egging us on. Do \w\ and \r\ count as vowels?

[throatybeard]

OK, now your [sic] egging us on. Do \w\ and \r\ count as vowels?

No, but /r/ certainly acts a lot like one. If you measure it on a spectrograph, you get formants (big shady lines, basically) that act a lot like those of vowels. There are different nomenclatures for /r/ and /w/, but one is "semivowels."

As Hurley has perhaps anticipated, the dividing line between the categories consonant and vowel are a bit fuzzy. It's more like a spectrum.

In American English, /r/ is considered a retroflex liquid and /l/ a lateral liquid. Liquid because more air escapes the vocal tract than you get with most consonants. (But less than with vowels). /l/ is lateral becuase the air escapes on the sides, and /r/ retroflex because the tip of the tongue is turned backwards. American nuclear and posvocalic /r/ are pretty atypical sounds when you consider world languages.

[hc5duke]

OK, now your [sic] egging us on. Do \w\ and \r\ count as vowels?

I assumed throaty's question to mean the number of vowel sounds, as opposed to letters, since a letter can represent different sounds; i.e. the a in apple and father would count as two. Not that I know what the answer would be in this case either...

[BluDevilGal]

Lol, I'm rather enjoying this little installment of Linguistic Lessons with Throaty. :-)

The more languages I study, the more I understand English grammar, which makes me more rigid in my use of language in some ways, but also much more accepting of the fact that language is always changing and some things that are rules now will eventually change. (I had a prof that was very rigid about the use of the word "like." Honestly, some things are just too far gone to hold on to the old rules.)

[DevilAlumna]

In fact, out main verb has lost mood entirely, with the exception of irreal were as in "If I were rich."

Okay, color me impressed, Throaty -- what's your "official" field of study?

And could you please explain what you mean by "irreal"? The mis-use of 'was' instead of 'were' in the hypothetical subjunctive really bothers me (like in Joan Osborne's "What if G-d was one of us" -- I keep shouting "were" at the radio); but maybe it's not all that wrong?

[EarlJam]

Throaty, serious question:

When is it proper to use the term, "utilize?"

I know some people that use this word all the time and it bugs a little. Example: I will totally bust that dude's skull open by utilizing my new hammer.

Or...

I want to utilize my skills to inflict as much pain on Steve as possible.

Why not just say, "use?"


Opinion on this subject?

-EarlJam

[colchar]

In Futurama, it was (will be?) revealed that "ask" is an obsolete pronunciation of the word from the 2nd millennium, and "ax" is the proper pronunciation in the future. These axers may not be history buffs, but maybe they are just ahead of the curve :rolleyes:

God help us if that ever comes true. It will mean that the heathens have finally won.

[colchar]

IANAL(inguist), but IIRC replacing "th" with "f/v" is a vestige of some local dialect of British English from the colonial era. I'm pretty sure that this is done in Cockney as well as Southern dialects and Black English. It's like how in the U.S. you only expect southerners to say "reckon", whereas it's part of everyday language in the U.K. (I think). It has been a while since I took a linguistics course (6 years to be exact), so I could be completely wrong of course.

It isn't just a Cockney thing, it is far more widespread than that.

[colchar]

(a) Feel is a linking verb. Linking verbs have idiosyncratic selectional restrictions about what subject complements they can take, but all can take ADJ phrase complements. What has happened with "I feel badly" is that at the syntactic level, badly has been reinterpreted as an ADJ because we still have a few Germanic -ly suffixed adjectives corresponding to -lich in German. (Heavenly, earthly, brotherly, &c). So in other words, "I feel badly" is evidence of influence from Common Germanic and Old English in present-Day English. Badly is not acting as an ADV in the syntax.

(b) This is even easier to dispute. There's an ellipted presentational phrase, "for people." It's omitted because it's so obvious that it doesn't need to be uttered. The food isn't, presumably, healthy for care bears or for paramecia; it's healthy for people. An equally viable interpretation would be that a postmodifying infinitive clause has also been left out, "for people to eat."

If you're going to judge other people, it would be good to learn about the subject which you're judging them on first.

I'm shocked it took you 34 posts before you joined this thread. Good, now we at least have an expert weighing in.

[colchar]

It's becoming to exhausting to combat the social prejudices of posters in this thread, but I'll oblige with the explanation of why this happens anyway.

[aks] is a relic form. It lives on in African American English because much of the initial linguistic contact between slaves and and English speakers was with English speakers who preserved the archaic form. In Middle English, there were two competing forms of the infinitive (yes, we had a real infinitive back then), ascian and acsian. Today's ask is derived from the former, which was favored by the prescriptivists in the 18th century. [aks] has lived on as a relic form in AAE, and a few Anglicist varieties.

As for Colchar's illogical assertion in bold, people don't need metalinguistic knowledge of a feature to keep doing it. I ask lay audiences how many vowels are in American English. They never produce an accurate answer. Yet, the use all of these vowels everyday.

Aks was rarely to never heard until a few years ago (let's say a decade) so I doubt that, for the majority of people who use the term, it has lived on since the period of initial contact that you describe. At least not up here in Canada anyway. To me, it is not so much a carry-over from the period you describe as it is a symptom of the continuing downward spiral we are seeing in North American society in which ignorance is celebrated.

[hc5duke]

Aks was rarely to never heard until a few years ago (let's say a decade) so I doubt that, for the majority of people who use the term, it has lived on since the period of initial contact that you describe. At least not up here in Canada anyway. To me, it is not so much a carry-over from the period you describe as it is a symptom of the continuing downward spiral we are seeing in North American society in which ignorance is celebrated.

The new phenomenon you speak of might just be a Canadian thing, since I've definitely heard aks'd being used in place of asked (which is harder to say anyway) in Houston when I moved to the U.S. in '94

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Isn't "aks " primarily used in the black community? I've never heard a white person say "aks". Is that true in Canada, also?
Love, Ima

[colchar]

The new phenomenon you speak of might just be a Canadian thing, since I've definitely heard aks'd being used in place of asked (which is harder to say anyway) in Houston when I moved to the U.S. in '94

Perhaps it is a Canadian thing. I thought of that when I noticed Throaty saying it had survived in AAE (after my previous post). I had honestly never heard it until a few years ago and it still drives me nuts today. I guess it made its way up here as hip-hop culture became more prevalent.

[hc5duke]

Isn't "aks " primarily used in the black community? I've never heard a white person say "aks". Is that true in Canada, also?
Love, Ima

There's black people in Canada? Whaa?

According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_minorities) Canada is 2.2% black.

[colchar]

Isn't "aks " primarily used in the black community? I've never heard a white person say "aks". Is that true in Canada, also?
Love, Ima

No, some whites are saying it as well. At least those who are influenced by hip-hop culture. I don't know any whites who are not into that culture who say it though. And I don't know of any Asians who say it either (even those who are into hip-hop never ever seem to say it).

[throatybeard]

1) Yes, [aks] is now almost entirely restricted to AAE in North America. (Caveat: we are witnessing a generation in which White kids who grow up in Urban areas are actually acquiring AAE with native speaker proficiency).

2) Use is preferred over utilize in a lot of prescriptive style manuals, yes. But these prescriptive directions often aren't stated in useful ways, and the authors themselves often violate their own "rules." A guy named Pullum, who I think is at Penn, went through Strunk & White's Precambrian Elements of Style to see if they followed their own suggestions. I'm sure most of y'all are aware of the injunction against using passive voice in some academic writing. One thing he discovered is that Strunk/White themselves use the passive something like 20% of the time, despite their telling people it's almost always dispreferred. I can look up the specifics on that.

3) "What if God was one of us" is a use of the modal preterite. English has lost the subjunctive voice almost entirely. So if you know Spanish, think about all those subjunctive mood endings you had to learn. You had to change an inflection on the verb. When you don't have a morphological way to express something, you do it with syntax. (That right there is basically the biggest story of the last 1500 years in English). So we express irreal situations by using a past tense form that expresses the subjunctive.

If Ben went to the store, surely he picked up some beer.
If you really loved me, you would have sex with me.

The only verb in English that still has a morphological subjunctive mood is be, and it's hanging on by a thread. (Languages lose some forms, and gain others, all the time). So you get both forms:

Irrealis were subjunctive: "What if God were one of us." Prescriptively preferred.

Modal preterite subjunctive: "What if God was one of us." A generalization of the modal preterite rule through its only remaining exception in prescriptive writing style.

[throatybeard]

I'm shocked it took you 34 posts before you joined this thread. Good, now we at least have an expert weighing in.

I usually try to avoid threads like this because they are very frustrating. I try to pick my spots.

[throatybeard]

Okay, color me impressed, Throaty -- what's your "official" field of study?

Sociolinguistics. But in teaching terms, my job is "token linguist guy in English Department." As such, I teach mostly English language classes, mainly the Descriptive Grammar class, History of English, a very English-oriented Intro to Linguistics, some Socio and Language/Culture type classes, and some literature when I'm on my best behavior.


And could you please explain what you mean by "irreal"? The mis-use of 'was' instead of 'were' in the hypothetical subjunctive really bothers me (like in Joan Osborne's "What if G-d was one of us" -- I keep shouting "were" at the radio); but maybe it's not all that wrong?

See above explanation in that other post.

But also, "irreal" is simply a grammatical mood that means "this verb is contrary-to-fact, or is considered so by the speaker." As you correctly point out, we usually call this hypothetical (or counterfactual) subjunctive in English. Irreal, or irrealis if you want to get all Latin on that pooch, is a tad more precise simply because there are some languages that don't have a subjunctive that do mark irreal with some other syntactic marker. English is going, or has almost gone, all the way in that direction, by using the modal preterite.

Lots of Creoles have irreal markers. English acts like a Creole in some respects, due to language contact with those crazy Normans and Vikings.

[throatybeard]

I assumed throaty's question to mean the number of vowel sounds, as opposed to letters, since a letter can represent different sounds; i.e. the a in apple and father would count as two. Not that I know what the answer would be in this case either...

HC5, I just abused moderator capabilities by undeleting this post; you said that it was already answered, but I think only sort of. You make a totally relevant point.

Yes, in most varieties, apple is the vowel [ash]* and father is the vowel [a]. The second is a low front vowel and the second, depending on where you're from, is a low back vowel usually.

Including the diphthongs, and depending on which vowels you have merged, American English has about 16 vowel sounds. That is a bunch; lots of languages are more in the 5-10 range. But again, we're a Germanic language, and Germanic Languages love some vowels.

* it's the fused ae symbol in international phonetic alphabet but we call it "ash."

[wilson]

Aks was rarely to never heard until a few years ago (let's say a decade)...

Sorry, but this ain't (;)) true. I've been hearing it (admittedly, in the South:o) for literally my entire life (25 years).

[DevilAlumna]

Sociolinguistics. But in teaching terms, my job is "token linguist guy in English Department." As such, I teach mostly English language classes, mainly the Descriptive Grammar class, History of English, a very English-oriented Intro to Linguistics, some Socio and Language/Culture type classes, and some literature when I'm on my best behavior.


Okay, maybe it's just me, but that sounds so cool. Chalk "sociolinguistics" up on my list of "topics I'd like to study if I had a chance for academic do-overs." Maybe it just stems back to the fact that My Fair Lady is my favorite movie-musical, and I thought "Why Can't the English (Learn to Speak)" was hilarious and fascinating at the same time.

[hc5duke]

HC5, I just abused moderator capabilities by undeleting this post; you said that it was already answered, but I think only sort of. You make a totally relevant point.

Yes, in most varieties, apple is the vowel [ash]* and father is the vowel [a]. The second is a low front vowel and the second, depending on where you're from, is a low back vowel usually.

Including the diphthongs, and depending on which vowels you have merged, American English has about 16 vowel sounds. That is a bunch; lots of languages are more in the 5-10 range. But again, we're a Germanic language, and Germanic Languages love some vowels.

* it's the fused ae symbol in international phonetic alphabet but we call it "ash."

Yeah I erased the post when I realized your post preceded mine by about 5 minutes...

Interesting fact about 5-10 range for # of vowels of an average language. In Korean, there are 19 vowels to go with 18 consonants (and it doesn't include F, SH, TH, V, Z, or differentiate R/L!) - no wonder my wife can't tell the difference between two or three different words I pronounce :D

[colchar]

Sorry, but this ain't (;)) true. I've been hearing it (admittedly, in the South:o) for literally my entire life (25 years).

I meant up here in Canada.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

(a) Feel is a linking verb. Linking verbs have idiosyncratic selectional restrictions about what subject complements they can take, but all can take ADJ phrase complements. What has happened with "I feel badly" is that at the syntactic level, badly has been reinterpreted as an ADJ because we still have a few Germanic -ly suffixed adjectives corresponding to -lich in German. (Heavenly, earthly, brotherly, &c). So in other words, "I feel badly" is evidence of influence from Common Germanic and Old English in present-Day English. Badly is not acting as an ADV in the syntax.

Oh pooh. I venture to guess that the last 20 or so people I have heard say "I feel badly" were saying it simply because they were just trying to sound fancy. I doubt seriously that any of them could use speaking on a syntactic level as a reason. I still say that if you feel badly, you're just a plain old bad feeler!

Love, Ima

[billybreen]

If you really loved me, you would have sex with me.

Is that true?

[throatybeard]

Oh pooh. I venture to guess that the last 20 or so people I have heard say "I feel badly" were saying it simply because they were just trying to sound fancy. I doubt seriously that any of them could use speaking on a syntactic level as a reason. I still say that if you feel badly, you're just a plain old bad feeler!

Love, Ima

1) See what I said before about metalinguistic knowledge.

2) An alternate interpretation, yours, is certainly possibly valid. That is, in order to appease prescriptivists, "I feel badly" may sometimes be uttered in order to "sound fancy." We call this hypercorrection. Hypercorrection is the use of forms, in attempt to sound prescriptively correct, that nonetheless, aren't prescriptively correct. They usually result from prescriptivists "correcting" people in vague ways that don't explain anything about the syntactic environment.

Nonetheless, I'd stick to my original take, that the main reason this is possible in the first place with this particular word is that there's precedent for it elsewhere in Germanic linguistics.

[throatybeard]

Is that true?

Only when I have a stiffie.

[captmojo]

Dyslexic atheists believe that there is no DOG.

[hc5duke]

Dyslexic atheists believe that there is no DOG.

How dare you. One day we will untie.

[throatybeard]

(Still, I think saying "aks" makes you sound like an idiot; even if you are not one. Enough time has now passed that "ask" could/should successfully be adopted.

That's not how language works.

First, variation is an inherent property of a natural system. In most areas of human study (especially biology), variety is regarded as healthy.

Second, the only major pressure against language variation that exists is language ideology, which in our culture is disseminated primarily through the educational system. The educational system is the #1 propagator of prejudice against vernacular speakers. [aks] has been around for centuries; African Americans have had access to the educational system for less than 150 years, and something sort of like complete access to it for about 40 years.

Third, I don't know any living speakers who have been around for all of the last 800 years. Language acquisition occurs primarily before age 6, the end of the first critical period. Speakers with [aks] as a part of their repertory haven't had centuries to get rid of it just to please Shammrog or other UMC Whites. As with any feature, they've acquired it in childhood.

Fourth, in Linguistics we recognize two different sorts of prestige, overt and covert. Overt prestige is held by institutions dominated by more politically and financially powerful groups. It's macrocosmic. Covert prestige exists in microcosmic (or less macorcosmic), or local, communities. In oral language (language's primary manifestation), speakers of varieties labeled vernacular by the mainstream enjoy covert prestige. So [aks] and other features acts as marker of in-group status. Not all features are noticed at a conscious level by all speakers though.

[Shammrog]

That's not how language works.

First, variation is an inherent property of a natural system. In most areas of human study (especially biology), variety is regarded as healthy.

Second, the only major pressure against language variation that exists is language ideology, which in our culture is disseminated primarily through the educational system. The educational system is the #1 propagator of prejudice against vernacular speakers. [aks] has been around for centuries; African Americans have had access to the educational system for less than 150 years, and something sort of like complete access to it for about 40 years.

Third, I don't know any living speakers who have been around for all of the last 800 years. Language acquisition occurs primarily before age 6, the end of the first critical period. Speakers with [aks] as a part of their repertory haven't had centuries to get rid of it just to please Shammrog or other UMC Whites. As with any feature, they've acquired it in childhood.

Fourth, in Linguistics we recognize two different sorts of prestige, overt and covert. Overt prestige is held by institutions dominated by more politically and financially powerful groups. It's macrocosmic. Covert prestige exists in microcosmic (or less macorcosmic), or local, communities. In oral language (language's primary manifestation), speakers of varieties labeled vernacular by the mainstream enjoy covert prestige. So [aks] and other features acts as marker of in-group status. Not all features are noticed at a conscious level by all speakers though.

Whoa! Whoa! Just my opinion, not an in-depth analysis. Just like someone coated with tattoos isn't necessarily trailer trash. Solely one indicator.

What is "UMC" anyway?

[throatybeard]

Upper middle class.

Unless you're a Methodist.

[Shammrog]

Upper middle class.

Unless you're a Methodist.

Not Methodist. I guess I am "upper middle class," but I guess that's relative.

White? Sort of. But that is too general. I am half-Polack, half-WASP.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

That's not how language works.

First, variation is an inherent property of a natural system. In most areas of human study (especially biology), variety is regarded as healthy.

Second, the only major pressure against language variation that exists is language ideology, which in our culture is disseminated primarily through the educational system. The educational system is the #1 propagator of prejudice against vernacular speakers. [aks] has been around for centuries; African Americans have had access to the educational system for less than 150 years, and something sort of like complete access to it for about 40 years.

Third, I don't know any living speakers who have been around for all of the last 800 years. Language acquisition occurs primarily before age 6, the end of the first critical period. Speakers with [aks] as a part of their repertory haven't had centuries to get rid of it just to please Shammrog or other UMC Whites. As with any feature, they've acquired it in childhood.

Fourth, in Linguistics we recognize two different sorts of prestige, overt and covert. Overt prestige is held by institutions dominated by more politically and financially powerful groups. It's macrocosmic. Covert prestige exists in microcosmic (or less macorcosmic), or local, communities. In oral language (language's primary manifestation), speakers of varieties labeled vernacular by the mainstream enjoy covert prestige. So [aks] and other features acts as marker of in-group status. Not all features are noticed at a conscious level by all speakers though.

Let's just get on with it and quit wasting our time learning to communicate clearly with one another. Sooner or later we'll all just be back where we started anyway so we might as well all just start grunting and pointing from here on out. Trouble with that is it puts you out of work!

Love, Ima

[throatybeard]

Let's just get on with it and quit wasting our time learning to communicate clearly with one another. Sooner or later we'll all just be back where we started anyway so we might as well all just start grunting and pointing from here on out. Trouble with that is it puts you out of work!

Love, Ima

If that's what you've gathered from my posts, at least one of the two of us has failed.

[xenic]

The one that truly, and I do mean truly, drives me to distraction is the saying "I could care less." I want to claw out the eyes of everyone I hear saying that.

which is especially funny because you are simply wrong about this one.

[xenic]

Aks was rarely to never heard until a few years ago (let's say a decade) so I doubt that, for the majority of people who use the term, it has lived on since the period of initial contact that you describe. At least not up here in Canada anyway. To me, it is not so much a carry-over from the period you describe as it is a symptom of the continuing downward spiral we are seeing in North American society in which ignorance is celebrated.

I have heard [aks] for my entire life, so, it has been around for quite a bit more than a decade.

[xenic]

Let's just get on with it and quit wasting our time learning to communicate clearly with one another. Sooner or later we'll all just be back where we started anyway so we might as well all just start grunting and pointing from here on out. Trouble with that is it puts you out of work!

Love, Ima

Let's take that a different direction. Do you know what people mean when they say "I feel badly"? If so then they are communicating effectively.

[hc5duke]

which is especially funny because you are simply wrong about this one.

I was actually thinking that, and your post made me look it up
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/078.html

I could care less = This is something that is of no consequence to me, therefore I could care less about it
I couldn't care less = As above, I care so little about this, that I don't care at all. Therefore I cannot care any less than I do now.

[xenic]

I was actually thinking that, and your post made me look it up
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/078.html

I could care less = This is something that is of no consequence to me, therefore I could care less about it
I couldn't care less = As above, I care so little about this, that I don't care at all. Therefore I cannot care any less than I do now.


Both meanings are typically accurate of what the speaker intends, whichever version they use.

[colchar]

Both meanings are typically accurate of what the speaker intends, whichever version they use.

Wrong.

I could care less means that it is possible for you to care less about X. Could, after all, means "able to." So I could care less means "I am able to care less" which is the opposite of what the speaker is trying to convey.

I couldn't care less means that it is impossible to give less of a s**t about X (much like how I feel about almost everything you say). Couldn't, after all, is the contraction of could not. So I couldn't care less means "I could not care less" which is exactly what the speaker is trying to convey when saying that.

[colchar]

I have heard [aks] for my entire life, so, it has been around for quite a bit more than a decade.

If you had read my other posts you would have figured out that I was referring to up here in Canada where the term hasn't been around as long as it has down there because AAE is not as prevalent.

[colchar]

which is especially funny because you are simply wrong about this one.

Not if you use the definitions of the words in the sentence(s). See my other post for an explanation. I couldn't care less that it has become common to say "I could care less" as that saying simply makes the person using it sound like an idiot (something with which I am sure you have plenty of personal experience).

And, despite the link claiming that "I could care less" is correct because of the sarcastic intent...please spare me as 99.9% of the people who use that expression are simply trying to say that they don't care and are using it as a statement of fact rather than as a form of sarcasm.

[xenic]

Not if you use the definitions of the words in the sentence(s). See my other post for an explanation. I couldn't care less that it has become common to say "I could care less" as that saying simply makes the person using it sound like an idiot (something with which I am sure you have plenty of personal experience).

And, despite the link claiming that "I could care less" is correct because of the sarcastic intent...please spare me as 99.9% of the people who use that expression are simply trying to say that they don't care and are using it as a statement of fact rather than as a form of sarcasm.

Nice personal attack. Way to raise the bar.

To say "I couldn't care less" is inherently contradictory. If you find something worth commenting on, then it is certainly something about which you care more than something you never even think or comment on.
The saying is just that, a saying. It isn't supposed to be interpreted literally. Here's an example for you: "You are an a--hole"* does not make me sound like an idiot even though you aren't actually a sphincter located at the end of the large intestine.

* I am not actually calling coulchar an a--hole here, I am just making a point about literal interpretations of idioms.

[Shammrog]

There's black people in Canada? Whaa?

According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_minorities) Canada is 2.2% black.

I think there are black people/person in Idaho, too. Like, one or two.

[throatybeard]

Yeah, so I'm wondering, of these, um, Afro-Canadians (?), how many are ethnic North Americans (Blacks, in other words) and how many are actually Africans?

[hc5duke]

Yeah, so I'm wondering, of these, um, Afro-Canadians (?), how many are ethnic North Americans (Blacks, in other words) and how many are actually Africans?

Looks like neither (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canadian):


The majority have relatively recent origins in the Caribbean, while some trace their lineage to the first slaves brought by British and French colonists to the mainland of North America. A minority have recent African roots.

[hc5duke]

also, list of famous black canadians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Black_Canadians)

Rick Fox, Ben Johnson, and Rae Dawn Chong (Tommy Chong's daughter - yes, from Cheech and Chong) seem to be the only ones I recognize.

[wilson]

also, list of famous black canadians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Black_Canadians)

Rick Fox, Ben Johnson, and Rae Dawn Chong (Tommy Chong's daughter - yes, from Cheech and Chong) seem to be the only ones I recognize.

Surely you remember Donovan Bailey (100m champion, called Michael Johnson a pu$$y on TV) and Tshimanga "Tim" Biakabutuka (played at U Michigan and for the Carolina Panthers...and what a name)?

[hc5duke]

Surely you remember Donovan Bailey (100m champion, called Michael Johnson a pu$$y on TV) and Tshimanga "Tim" Biakabutuka (played at U Michigan and for the Carolina Panthers...and what a name)?

True, I also overlooked Samuel Dalembert. Don't remember this Biakabutuka guy

[captmojo]

True, I also overlooked Samuel Dalembert. Don't remember this Biakabutuka guy

Don't feel bad about it. Very few remember him.

[TillyGalore]

True, I also overlooked Samuel Dalembert. Don't remember this Biakabutuka guy

Don't forget Grant Fuhr.

[DevilAlumna]

This thread is now reminding me of the old MTV game show, "Remote Control." They used to have a series of questions, "Dead or Canadian."

[EarlJam]

One of the most insightful points I will take from this thread is just how sensitive of an issue grammar is among the people. Perhaps the saying should be revised to read, "In the office, it is wise not to discuss Politics, Religion, and Grammar."

-EarlJam

[colchar]

Yeah, so I'm wondering, of these, um, Afro-Canadians (?), how many are ethnic North Americans (Blacks, in other words) and how many are actually Africans?

I have no idea what the breakdown is but there are significant African communities in various Canadian cities, particularly in the Greater Toronto Area. Just as we have Chinatown, Little Italy, etc. we also have areas known as Little Somalia and so on.

[colchar]

Don't forget Grant Fuhr.

And grant Hill's wife Tamia.

[hc5duke]

That's not how language works.

First, variation is an inherent property of a natural system. In most areas of human study (especially biology), variety is regarded as healthy.

Second, the only major pressure against language variation that exists is language ideology, which in our culture is disseminated primarily through the educational system. The educational system is the #1 propagator of prejudice against vernacular speakers. [aks] has been around for centuries; African Americans have had access to the educational system for less than 150 years, and something sort of like complete access to it for about 40 years.

Third, I don't know any living speakers who have been around for all of the last 800 years. Language acquisition occurs primarily before age 6, the end of the first critical period. Speakers with [aks] as a part of their repertory haven't had centuries to get rid of it just to please Shammrog or other UMC Whites. As with any feature, they've acquired it in childhood.

Fourth, in Linguistics we recognize two different sorts of prestige, overt and covert. Overt prestige is held by institutions dominated by more politically and financially powerful groups. It's macrocosmic. Covert prestige exists in microcosmic (or less macorcosmic), or local, communities. In oral language (language's primary manifestation), speakers of varieties labeled vernacular by the mainstream enjoy covert prestige. So [aks] and other features acts as marker of in-group status. Not all features are noticed at a conscious level by all speakers though.

Just wanted to bring back a dead topic. I wanted to ask you Throaty, if other words where [ks] [sk] swapping happens (asterisk is the only one that comes to mind - my wife says this *groan*) have historical context like the battling infinitive of "ask", or it's just a lazy pronunciation like [nu kju lər].

[Cavlaw]

Oh pooh. I venture to guess that the last 20 or so people I have heard say "I feel badly" were saying it simply because they were just trying to sound fancy. I doubt seriously that any of them could use speaking on a syntactic level as a reason. I still say that if you feel badly, you're just a plain old bad feeler!

Love, Ima
Reminds me of a couple of amusing movie quotes.


Harry: Umm, clearly I'm interrupting. I feel badly. Let me... What are you drinking?
Harmony: Bad.
Harry: Bad? Sorry... feel...?
Harmony: You feel bad.
Harry: Bad?
Harmony: Badly is an adverb. So to say you feel badly would be saying that the mechanism which allows you to feel is broken.

(Then later...)

Perry: Go. Sleep badly. Any questions, hesitate to call.
Harry: Bad.
Perry: Excuse me?
Harry: Sleep bad. Otherwise it makes it seem like the mechanism that allows you to sleep...
Perry: What, f---head? Badly's an adverb. Who taught you grammar? Get out. Vanish.

[billybreen]

Reminds me of a couple of amusing movie quotes.

Exactly what I was thinking through this entire thread. Great movie. In fact, maybe I should watch it tonight.

[EarlJam]

Exactly what I was thinking through this entire thread. Great movie. In fact, maybe I should watch it tonight.

What movie are you talking about? I'm in a movie mood as well.

[billybreen]

What movie are you talking about? I'm in a movie mood as well.

Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Kiss_Bang_Bang)

[hc5duke]

Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Kiss_Bang_Bang)

I love inside jokes. I'd love to be a part of one someday... damn, second Michael Scott quote today already.

[DevilAlumna]

Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Kiss_Bang_Bang)

Excellent, excellent flick. RDJunior is HI-larious. Right up your alley, EJ, particularly if the narcotics have kicked in. Run, don't walk, to your local video store!

[billybreen]

I love inside jokes. I'd love to be a part of one someday... damn, second Michael Scott quote today already.

Here's another fun quote for you:



Harry: I peed on the corpse. Can they do, like, an ID from that?
Perry: I'm sorry, you peed on...?
Harry: On the corpse. My question is...
Perry: No, my question. I get to go first. Why in pluperfect hell would you pee on the corpse?

[throatybeard]

Yes, they both have historical precedent.

Of course, so does almost everything the prescriptivists hate.