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scottdude8
09-24-2018, 01:49 PM
I'm beyond excited for this weekend's game against the CHokies (can I trademark that? I like that a lot. I'm trademarking that.). Win this game and we've got a legit shot at winning the Coastal, but perhaps more importantly winning a game as a ranked team against a name school will be another important step in shedding the decades old negative reputation of Duke football.

But I'm legitimately concerned that when I watch the game from Toronto this weekend I'm going to continue to see a half-empty stadium. I'm of the mind that the next step in becoming a legitimate, competitive team every year is creating a some sort of home field advantage, or at the very least a non-depressing home field environment. Filling a football stadium is a lot harder than filling Cameron, especially with the extra limitations on Duke not having a large alumni base in the Durham area (darn our stellar academic University!)... but a sparsely populated stadium in a big game, broadcast on an ESPN network, certainly can't help recruiting.

So with all that in mind, what can we do to fill Wallace Wade for one of the biggest home games in recent memory this weekend? I have one friend who got his PostDoc at Duke so I'm putting the pressure on him to start going to FB games, so I'm doing my part, lol. Feel free to respond both with tongue-in-cheek suggestions (see mine a sentence previous) or legitimate suggestions. I'm curious to see what ideas arise.

Atldukie79
09-24-2018, 01:58 PM
Well, I bought 3 tickets for my annual drive from Atlanta.
With the Ga Tech game coming up after a bye, it will be back to back Tech games in person for me.

Every little bit helps:)

Pghdukie
09-24-2018, 02:06 PM
Filling Wade for TV purposes may be a tough sell. But, may I suggest moving the cameras to the other side of the field. I'm sure this has been mentioned many,many times. I'll be interested to see how Pitt Basketball looks now that they have done this.

mattman91
09-24-2018, 02:13 PM
I'm beyond excited for this weekend's game against the CHokies (can I trademark that? I like that a lot. I'm trademarking that.). Win this game and we've got a legit shot at winning the Coastal, but perhaps more importantly winning a game as a ranked team against a name school will be another important step in shedding the decades old negative reputation of Duke football.

But I'm legitimately concerned that when I watch the game from Toronto this weekend I'm going to continue to see a half-empty stadium. I'm of the mind that the next step in becoming a legitimate, competitive team every year is creating a some sort of home field advantage, or at the very least a non-depressing home field environment. Filling a football stadium is a lot harder than filling Cameron, especially with the extra limitations on Duke not having a large alumni base in the Durham area (darn our stellar academic University!)... but a sparsely populated stadium in a big game, broadcast on an ESPN network, certainly can't help recruiting.

So with all that in mind, what can we do to fill Wallace Wade for one of the biggest home games in recent memory this weekend? I have one friend who got his PostDoc at Duke so I'm putting the pressure on him to start going to FB games, so I'm doing my part, lol. Feel free to respond both with tongue-in-cheek suggestions (see mine a sentence previous) or legitimate suggestions. I'm curious to see what ideas arise.

Reasonably priced craft beer stands.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-24-2018, 02:14 PM
Filling Wade for TV purposes may be a tough sell. But, may I suggest moving the cameras to the other side of the field. I'm sure this has been mentioned many,many times. I'll be interested to see how Pitt Basketball looks now that they have done this.
I've been told that the reason the TV cameras face the visitor side has to do with the position of the sun during daytime games... you know, the sun appears in the east and moves to the west as the earth rotates.

On another note, the fancy scoreboard has begun to stream the words to our songs so people can sing along, but the crowds have been slow to join in... maybe because the words stream at the bottom while the main screen is filled with major distractions.

aimo
09-24-2018, 02:27 PM
One reason for the NCCU game being so empty was the heat. People were dropping like flies and a lot left at halftime.

OldPhiKap
09-24-2018, 02:28 PM
The eternal problem. If there was an easy answer, I imagine it would have already been accomplished.

Which is why thinking outside the box, like having craft beer, could only help. At minimum, it's worth a try.

Why keep doing the same damn thing when we know what the result will be?

dukelifer
09-24-2018, 02:35 PM
I'm beyond excited for this weekend's game against the CHokies (can I trademark that? I like that a lot. I'm trademarking that.). Win this game and we've got a legit shot at winning the Coastal, but perhaps more importantly winning a game as a ranked team against a name school will be another important step in shedding the decades old negative reputation of Duke football.

But I'm legitimately concerned that when I watch the game from Toronto this weekend I'm going to continue to see a half-empty stadium. I'm of the mind that the next step in becoming a legitimate, competitive team every year is creating a some sort of home field advantage, or at the very least a non-depressing home field environment. Filling a football stadium is a lot harder than filling Cameron, especially with the extra limitations on Duke not having a large alumni base in the Durham area (darn our stellar academic University!)... but a sparsely populated stadium in a big game, broadcast on an ESPN network, certainly can't help recruiting.

So with all that in mind, what can we do to fill Wallace Wade for one of the biggest home games in recent memory this weekend? I have one friend who got his PostDoc at Duke so I'm putting the pressure on him to start going to FB games, so I'm doing my part, lol. Feel free to respond both with tongue-in-cheek suggestions (see mine a sentence previous) or legitimate suggestions. I'm curious to see what ideas arise.

The heat and sun was brutal on the TV side. Need to make the Tower on the other side significantly taller or create clouds every game to cover the sun. My best answer is to provide free tickets to the Duke community every game, once the sun problem is solved. Duke makes their money on TV revenue. Get the people in the stands to create a community. Those who want the great seats can pay for them- but again make it reasonable.

sagegrouse
09-24-2018, 02:38 PM
One reason for the NCCU game being so empty was the heat. People were dropping like flies and a lot left at halftime.

At Wake Forest-Notre Dame, the TV gang noted that the field temperature was measured at 125-130 degrees. The stands were empty except for a shaded area on the hill in the endzone. True, A FieldTurf football field, but, nevertheless....

CrazyNotCrazie
09-24-2018, 02:41 PM
Perhaps leverage the popularity of the basketball team and scarcity of its tickets. Maybe say that two sets of two tickets for a random men's basketball game will be drawn at the end of the third quarter based on those who were there at the start of the game, and you have to be there at the end of the third quarter to get the tickets so people actually stick around?

For VA Tech, it is a night game so the sun will not be an issue. The long term forecast now seems to be showing thunderstorms on Saturday, which creates all sorts of other problems in terms of attracting those who would not otherwise be predisposed to attend. But weather forecasts could change a lot between now and then.

budwom
09-24-2018, 02:58 PM
As a thirty year veteran of the East side of the stadium, I can attest to the brutal conditions there for a sunny day game.

When Duke is playing well, more fans (not as many as we might like) show up...and night games definitely help.
For example, last year Duke drew 26k+ to the Baylor game (announced attendance, lots of no shows); but with a 4-0 record a few weeks
later the Miami game drew 36k+ (again, announced)...it was a pretty solid crowd. Enthusiastic while Duke was still in the game.

I can tell you that Duke does not have a unique situation with attendance. I went to the Northwestern game and spent a lot of time on their football board beforehand, and they also
have a problem with attendance, despite being in the huge Chicago metro area...their stadium holds 47k (WW now holds 40k) , and is rarely filled except when visiting Big Whatever
teams help fill it up...last year NW had a great year, finished 10-3, yet when they were 6-3, only 34k showed up for the Purdue game (announced), and 30k for the next game vs Minnesota, when NW was 7-3.
In seven home games, they averaged roughly 36k .

With every game being on TV, even being located in a huge metro area doesn't help a number of private schools...play better and you do get more fans, play in less than Baghdadian heat, more fans come.
I think we'll have a good crowd vs VT, and better crowds going forward if we're still on a roll...

BigWayne
09-24-2018, 03:06 PM
Reasonably priced craft beer stands.

You must spread some comments around before commenting on mattman91 again.

DU82
09-24-2018, 03:09 PM
If everybody watching on TV complaining about how empty the stands look on TV would actually attend the game, we won't have a perceived problem with attendance.

And if we'd build a giant shade over the field and east stands, that would help, too.

(Boy, I'm cranky today!)

Seriously, we were in the shade on the west side, and we were hot and sweaty. (Wish I could have gotten a drink, but I would have missed about a quarter waiting in the concession lines.)

moonpie23
09-24-2018, 03:11 PM
better wi-fi....



fight me.....

DU82
09-24-2018, 03:17 PM
better wi-fi...



fight me....

Wi-fi's been really good for the two games so far. I haven't had any problems. Now with more people...

devildeac
09-24-2018, 03:19 PM
Reasonably priced craft beer stands.


You must spread some comments around before commenting on mattman91 again.

You're covered. No worries. ;)

Ima Facultiwyfe
09-24-2018, 03:32 PM
I was disappointed that with the renovation they didn't raise the wall around the concourse so that people couldn't watch the game from out there. The number of folks standing around out there and hanging over the wall would fill a bunch of seats. That would help a little. We had friends with seats on the top row over there who've had to call security with all the drinks and food knocked over on them along with other annoyances.

And yes, afternoon games are BRUTAL on that sunny side...and getting worse with global warming. We sat on tht side for years on the metal benches. It was awful then and it's so much worse now. As loyal as we have been for many, many years, had we not been able move to the west side we'd not be going anymore. At our age, we couldn't take it. They should be paying people to sit over there !

I'm eager to see if they move the cameras for a night game to show more of the loyal crowd on the west side. (Another reason to schedule as many night games as possible.)

There just doesn't seem to be a football culture among a student body in a private school with such a great percentage of foreign students. Not having been raised with it, they have their own interestsas well as a familiarity with other sports.

Then there is the city of Durham...half of which is probably made up of University of Non-Compliance fans.

Lots of reasons why WW games aren't more well attended. Sure do hope a winning and ranked program retrains a lot of people. Cutcliffe and company are doing a fabulous job and folks don't know what they're missing!
Love, Ima

dukelifer
09-24-2018, 03:33 PM
I was disappointed that with the renovation they didn't raise the wall around the concourse so that people couldn't watch the game from out there. The number of folks standing around out there and hanging over the wall would fill a bunch of seats. That would help a little. We had friends with seats on the top row over there who've had to call security with all the drinks and food knocked over on them along with other annoyances.

And yes, afternoon games are BRUTAL on that sunny side...and getting worse with global warming. We sat on tht side for years on the metal benches. It was awful then and it's so much worse now. As loyal as we have been for many, many years, had we not been able move to the west side we'd not be going anymore. At our age, we couldn't take it. They should be paying people to sit over there !

I'm eager to see if they move the cameras for a night game to show more of the loyal crowd on the west side. (Another reason to schedule as many night games as possible.)

There just doesn't seem to be a football culture among a student body in a private school with such a great percentage of foreign students. Not having been raised with it, they have their own interestsas well as a familiarity with other sports.

Then there is the city of Durham...half of which is probably made up of University of Non-Compliance fans.

Lots of reasons why WW games aren't more well attended. Sure do hope a winning and ranked program retrains a lot of people. Cutcliffe and company are doing a fabulous job and folks don't know what they're missing!
Love, Ima

Some smart Duke engineers should be all over this.

https://gizmodo.com/5785384/qatar-will-use-500000-artificial-clouds-for-the-world-cup

scottdude8
09-24-2018, 03:55 PM
Perhaps leverage the popularity of the basketball team and scarcity of its tickets. Maybe say that two sets of two tickets for a random men's basketball game will be drawn at the end of the third quarter based on those who were there at the start of the game, and you have to be there at the end of the third quarter to get the tickets so people actually stick around?

For VA Tech, it is a night game so the sun will not be an issue. The long term forecast now seems to be showing thunderstorms on Saturday, which creates all sorts of other problems in terms of attracting those who would not otherwise be predisposed to attend. But weather forecasts could change a lot between now and then.

I think this is a great option. I have heard (unconfirmed) rumors that the athletic department will make you buy season tickets to women's basketball while you "earn points" to get season tickets to men's basketball. Do this with the football team too!

Craft beer would also be freaking sick, but probably not coming in the near term. I know Michigan had to jump through a ton of weird regulatory hoops to have beer at Michigan Stadium when they hosted the Winter Classic and a couple of the International Cup soccer games, so I have to imagine it'd be that plus some more hassle to do something permanent.

scottdude8
09-24-2018, 03:56 PM
If everybody watching on TV complaining about how empty the stands look on TV would actually attend the game, we won't have a perceived problem with attendance.

And if we'd build a giant shade over the field and east stands, that would help, too.

(Boy, I'm cranky today!)

Seriously, we were in the shade on the west side, and we were hot and sweaty. (Wish I could have gotten a drink, but I would have missed about a quarter waiting in the concession lines.)

Point well taken. If I were anywhere near Durham I'd be there. Heck, if I had any disposable income I'd fly down for a game as big as this. Alas, Postdoctoral Research Fellow is not a lucrative position, especially when they pay you in Loonies and Toonies, lol.

Kimist
09-24-2018, 04:35 PM
...

And yes, afternoon games are BRUTAL on that sunny side...and getting worse with global warming. We sat on tht side for years on the metal benches. It was awful then and it's so much worse now. As loyal as we have been for many, many years, had we not been able move to the west side we'd not be going anymore. At our age, we couldn't take it. They should be paying people to sit over there !



Well, that's one I hadn't heard before!

Perhaps we can hope for a volcanic eruption in the area of the Dean Dome and then a permanent cloud/ash cover to diminish the sun's effects in Durham?

FWIW: It's been many a year since I endured a (daytime) game on the visitor side. And permanently etched into my brain is a near heat-stroke experience or two from sitting there for two days during the USA/USSR track meet way back in the days of the dinosaurs, perhaps even BEFORE any global warming had occurred. (And it was also deemed a blessing to have metal seating as opposed to the older wooden seats which necessitated careful attention to remove any splinters from one's backside.)

k

Indoor66
09-24-2018, 04:43 PM
Well, that's one I hadn't heard before!

Perhaps we can hope for a volcanic eruption in the area of the Dean Dome and then a permanent cloud/ash cover to diminish the sun's effects in Durham?

FWIW: It's been many a year since I endured a (daytime) game on the visitor side. And permanently etched into my brain is a near heat-stroke experience or two from sitting there for two days during the USA/USSR track meet way back in the days of the dinosaurs, perhaps even BEFORE any global warming had occurred. (And it was also deemed a blessing to have metal seating as opposed to the older wooden seats which necessitated careful attention to remove any splinters from one's backside.)

k

How well I remember those days. I served on the organizational committee for all of the three international track meets of that era. In those days the fear was global cooling, though Wallace Was was definitely hot in the Carolina sun.

TruBlu
09-24-2018, 05:00 PM
I think this is a great option. I have heard (unconfirmed) rumors that the athletic department will make you buy season tickets to women's basketball while you "earn points" to get season tickets to men's basketball. Do this with the football team too.

An Indiana alum told me over the weekend that they require season basketball ticket holders to purchase season football tickets as a requirement for getting the basketball tickets.

I’m curious as to whether that would help football attendance at Duke, or would the Cameron Crowd simply not show up at Wade. This may not help football attendance much anyway, as Cameron is relatively small in comparison with Indiana.

CameronBornAndBred
09-24-2018, 05:13 PM
An Indiana alum told me over the weekend that they require season basketball ticket holders to purchase season football tickets as a requirement for getting the basketball tickets.

Just because you have the tickets doesn't mean you are going to go to the game, or even resell them. Don't force tickets upon someone that doesn't want them, that is a surefire way of guaranteeing that seat stays empty.

DU82
09-24-2018, 05:15 PM
Just because you have the tickets doesn't mean you are going to go to the game, or even resell them. Don't force tickets upon someone that doesn't want them, that is a surefire way of guaranteeing that seat stays empty.

I'd expect there's some old time Iron Dukes out there that buy tickets to football and WBB out of loyalty to the University, but do not attend the games. The announced attendance at both sure appear inflated sometimes. (And, it's true for some MBB game as well.)

HereBeforeCoachK
09-24-2018, 05:36 PM
I was disappointed that with the renovation they didn't raise the wall around the concourse so that people couldn't watch the game from out there. The number of folks standing around out there and hanging over the wall would fill a bunch of seats.


The renovation is really aesthetically pleasing, but they missed a lot of opportunities, including this one ^^^ above. That shouldn't be that hard. Inexcusable. If memory serves, years ago there were bleachers there for part of it, so people had to sit in those bleachers or go down into the bowl to see. At the time I think they claimed 44,000 as capacity.

Shelter, shade over the east side wouldn't have been a bad idea, though not sure how feasible it would be or how much it would help, especially in the low seats. But whether or not that would have worked, there's no excuse to not have camera pedestals and facilities on the east side pointing at the west side. When this renovation happened, we already knew most games would be televised.

killerleft
09-24-2018, 07:45 PM
When I was younger, more agile, and my feet didn't hurt after a short time standing still, I certainly took advantage of the 'best seats in the house'. It was often possible to 'adjust' my spot by just walking along with each team's drives. That way I was close to having the line of scrimmage directly in front of me for most of the game.

Never spilled a drink on anybody, never saw it happen that I remember, though I'm sure it did. I often wonder what happened to my fellow ring around the stadium fans. Did most of them finally drift into seats? Or did the barriers that really do make it less practical to watch from there now cause some of them to abandon watching live games at WW altogether?

Speak up, brothers!

Oh, and to get back on topic, VT followers will certainly help make Saturday's game a near sellout (I hope). Duke fans need to buy some tickets!!

Native
09-24-2018, 08:15 PM
Reasonably priced craft beer stands.

Go a step further — food trucks are a huge part of Durham culture. Why not have, in addition to the regular concessions, all of the Durham food trucks and breweries come to games? It would be awesome, for instance, to be able to get Fullsteam and Bull City Burger in the stadium. I think there's a big opportunity there to rebrand Duke football into something that feels uniquely "Durham" and bring in more locals. You could do season ticket packages with the Durham Bulls somehow — people who regularly attend those games (especially families with younger kids) are the perfect target demographic to try to bring into the Duke fanbase.

From a crowd perspective, I think that we just straight-up don't know how to do football games as a fanbase. Logistically, basketball is the polar opposite of football: relatively fewer stoppages in game action, shorter possessions, more intimate atmosphere. When the students and alumni in Cameron are at their best, it's usually a very targeted, very short, joke at something that everyone in the stadium can see.

Case in point: the good ol' "Let's Go Duke" chant doesn't work in Wallace Wade. Even in Cameron, it fades out after about 20 seconds into the shot clock. In Wade, everyone's spread out, it's much harder to coordinate and communicate, and it's more about filling the stadium with noise for more prolonged periods of time than during basketball games, which Wade isn't really designed for from an acoustic perspective.

They also need to work to get students mixed in with alumni and visitor lower-case-t-tailgates somehow. Tailgate was a catastrophe, but enough time has passed that students shouldn't be along Blue Devil Alley or near K-Ville with everyone else anymore. I'd wager most students now have never even heard of Tailgate. I wonder if the change in leadership at the top of the administration would help this cause along in any way.

TruBlu
09-24-2018, 08:16 PM
When I was younger, more agile, and my feet didn't hurt after a short time standing still, I certainly took advantage of the 'best seats in the house'. It was often possible to 'adjust' my spot by just walking along with each team's drives. That way I was close to having the line of scrimmage directly in front of me for most of the game.

Never spilled a drink on anybody, never saw it happen that I remember, though I'm sure it did. I often wonder what happened to my fellow ring around the stadium fans. Did most of them finally drift into seats? Or did the barriers that really do make it less practical to watch from there now cause some of them to abandon watching live games at WW altogether?

Speak up, brothers!

Oh, and to get back on topic, VT followers will certainly help make Saturday's game a near sellout (I hope). Duke fans need to buy some tickets!!

Speaking up, as requested. I have been standing at the top for years, even though I'm a geezer now. I find standing to be more comfortable for me, especially since I just finished driving 6 or 7 hours to get there, and have the same return travel, either right after the game or the next day. My old back tolerates standing better than sitting on uncomfortable bleachers, and makes (more and more frequent) trips to the restrooms easier.

Since the renovations, it has become increasingly difficult to find a decent spot at which to stand. The home side has a tall brick wall, and unless a person is about 6'5" (I'm not), they have to tippy-toe to get a good view.

killerleft
09-24-2018, 08:42 PM
Speaking up, as requested. I have been standing at the top for years, even though I'm a geezer now. I find standing to be more comfortable for me, especially since I just finished driving 6 or 7 hours to get there, and have the same return travel, either right after the game or the next day. My old back tolerates standing better than sitting on uncomfortable bleachers, and makes (more and more frequent) trips to the restrooms easier.

Since the renovations, it has become increasingly difficult to find a decent spot at which to stand. The home side has a tall brick wall, and unless a person is about 6'5" (I'm not), they have to tippy-toe to get a good view.

Ha! I'm 5'4" with shoes on! So that's why I can't stand back there anymore.:o It was a great way to watch a football game for as long as it lasted.

Atldukie79
09-24-2018, 09:06 PM
Thoughts to ponder....

I have sat in the east stands recently baking on a killer sunny afternoon...but I was wearing modern light weight clothing and 12 layers of sunscreen. Take a look at the pictures of Duke Stadium (not yet named WW) back in the 1930s. Notice the suits and ties. How in the world did they manage the heat then? The stadium was often packed. heck, as a kid in the 1960s, I wore my boy Scout uniform (free entrance and a lunch in exchange for ushering) and sat in the sun from 10 am til 4:30 pm.

And for you top of the stadium walkers who moved with the action...were you doing that back in the day of the (permanent) extended bleachers around the top? That might have been difficult viewing?

At the end of the day, Duke football in the stadium is not the only thing to do on Saturday.

Back when Durham entertainment options consisted only of channels 11 and 5, displayed on small black and white TVs in a non air conditioned house, a hot day in the sun watching Duke football with limited drink choices (I seem to remember the binary choice of coke and sprite) seemed like a great idea.

BigWayne
09-24-2018, 09:15 PM
I seem to remember the binary choice of coke and sprite.

You remember correctly. Part of the reason I drank vodka and coke one day when I had decided it was too hot to bring bourbon to the game.

devil84
09-24-2018, 10:39 PM
One reason for the NCCU game being so empty was the heat. People were dropping like flies and a lot left at halftime.

The heat is a huge problem and has been for a long time. September games should be 7pm kickoffs, IMHO.

Another possible reason for sparse attendance for the NCCU game: Hurricane Florence had come through the week before. In the Triangle, we were lucky if we were only picking up substantial debris from our lawn. There were events rescheduled from the previous week. There were still a few flooded streets in the south part of the Triangle, but go just a tiny bit south and east and there's a flooding disaster covering a large part of NC with cities entirely cut off and Interstate highways shut down (they just opened up today). There was a lot of distraction in the area last week, with many unable to leave their homes or shelters and others deciding that it was very important to volunteer to help.

Clean up from/help people severely impacted by the storm or sit out in unbearably hot conditions. Some didn't have a choice and couldn't go. Others who are lucky enough to have a choice may have sworn off of daytime September games since the time (a decade ago?) when Mom had severe reactions to the heat requiring us to help her to air conditioning and attempt to find water -- the concession stands had run out. It was a horrible experience that I'd rather not repeat. Mom isn't around anymore to go with us, but

For those of you who went, you are amazing fans! I'm glad you were able to get there safely and stay to cheer on the Blue Devils. You have an amazing tolerance for heat.

hallcity
09-24-2018, 10:43 PM
In case you’re on the fence about coming out to the game Saturday, it’s at 7:00 pm. The temperature should be just fine, a nice night for a game.

devildeac
09-24-2018, 11:15 PM
Go a step further — food trucks are a huge part of Durham culture. Why not have, in addition to the regular concessions, all of the Durham food trucks and breweries come to games? It would be awesome, for instance, to be able to get Fullsteam and Bull City Burger in the stadium. I think there's a big opportunity there to rebrand Duke football into something that feels uniquely "Durham" and bring in more locals. You could do season ticket packages with the Durham Bulls somehow — people who regularly attend those games (especially families with younger kids) are the perfect target demographic to try to bring into the Duke fanbase.

From a crowd perspective, I think that we just straight-up don't know how to do football games as a fanbase. Logistically, basketball is the polar opposite of football: relatively fewer stoppages in game action, shorter possessions, more intimate atmosphere. When the students and alumni in Cameron are at their best, it's usually a very targeted, very short, joke at something that everyone in the stadium can see.

Case in point: the good ol' "Let's Go Duke" chant doesn't work in Wallace Wade. Even in Cameron, it fades out after about 20 seconds into the shot clock. In Wade, everyone's spread out, it's much harder to coordinate and communicate, and it's more about filling the stadium with noise for more prolonged periods of time than during basketball games, which Wade isn't really designed for from an acoustic perspective.

They also need to work to get students mixed in with alumni and visitor lower-case-t-tailgates somehow. Tailgate was a catastrophe, but enough time has passed that students shouldn't be along Blue Devil Alley or near K-Ville with everyone else anymore. I'd wager most students now have never even heard of Tailgate. I wonder if the change in leadership at the top of the administration would help this cause along in any way.

Food trucks? Also another very good idea.

Fullsteam and Bull City Burger and Brewery? Why'd you omit Ponysaurus and Durty Bull? ;)

duke2x
09-25-2018, 12:51 AM
I'm beyond excited for this weekend's game against the CHokies (can I trademark that? I like that a lot. I'm trademarking that.)...But I'm legitimately concerned that when I watch the game from Toronto this weekend I'm going to continue to see a half-empty stadium. I'm of the mind that the next step in becoming a legitimate, competitive team every year is creating a some sort of home field advantage, or at the very least a non-depressing home field environment. Filling a football stadium is a lot harder than filling Cameron, especially with the extra limitations on Duke not having a large alumni base in the Durham area (darn our stellar academic University!)... but a sparsely populated stadium in a big game, broadcast on an ESPN network, certainly can't help recruiting...

1. Chokies has been around for a long time. I doubt USPTO will grant it.
2. Air Canada offers direct service from YYZ to/from RDU. It's only $1106 RT for this weekend.
3. It should be 50-50 on Saturday. This is one of the games that will come close to selling out, and it will be dark enough by 7:00 not to notice empty seats in the blue sections.

All of the ideas above are good and hit most of the problems: culture change for local fans, more administrative cooperation (e.g. open parking lots before 5:30 PM if you have a weekday game, no day starts for untelevised September home games). The ACC Network will probably make attendance worse even with a guaranteed ACC night game every week.

budwom
09-25-2018, 08:21 AM
good stuff here. I remember the old track meets, most entertaining.

food trucks would be a great addition, the concessions have always been hapless, that's the best word I can think of. Get some innovative good food and vendors who can quickly serve
people (the water dispensing people are cordial but woefully inept, though I haven't seen them in "action" this year).

True about tickets sold do not equal filled seats, which is how Cut can say a game is a sellout, yet seats are not nearly filled.

I do expect a good crowd Saturday, as we had vs Miami last year: evening game, good team...let's hope our lads respond accordingly.

Bob Green
09-25-2018, 08:29 AM
Another possible reason for sparse attendance for the NCCU game: Hurricane Florence had come through the week before.

I'm believe you are correct that Hurricane Florence possibly impacted attendance; however, I have attended every NCCU game since the series started and the truth is NCCU fans do not show up in large numbers. Even though the school is in Durham many other visiting teams bring much larger crowds than NCCU.

Bob Green
09-25-2018, 08:39 AM
Back when Durham entertainment options consisted only of channels 11 and 5, displayed on small black and white TVs in a non air conditioned house, a hot day in the sun watching Duke football with limited drink choices (I seem to remember the binary choice of coke and sprite) seemed like a great idea.

The rabbit ears on top of the Green Family black and white TV only picked up channel 11. I had to go to the neighbors to watch channel 5. They had an antenna on their roof.

Note to self: No matter how neutral/innocent you believe your comments are, do not mention "growing up in NC in a non air conditioned house" to your 87 year old father as he will quickly point out he grew up in NC in a house without electricity.

HereBeforeCoachK
09-25-2018, 09:04 AM
I'm believe you are correct that Hurricane Florence possibly impacted attendance; however, I have attended every NCCU game since the series started and the truth is NCCU fans do not show up in large numbers. Even though the school is in Durham many other visiting teams bring much larger crowds than NCCU.

I love some of the ideas listed in this thread...and it is odd how few NCCU fans show up for this. I have always wondered about the "Bull City Proud" campaign, with the bull horns with the hands (or is that a set of devil horns?). From observation, growing up in Raleigh as a Duke fan, Duke and Durham have always just sort of tolerated each other. I live out of the area now, but I'd like to hear some feedback on the Bull City proud meme...is it working? Can it work? Many of you know a lot more about this than I. I would think a big NCCU showing at the game would be one of the obvious fruits of such a campaign were it working.

I remember my parents telling me, as we would see old photos from the late 30s, 40s and 50s with what appear to be big crowds in the stadium, that for a few decades Duke was simply a bigger deal in football than UNC or NC State. I also think they had more local alums back then...seems to me the serious Yankee migration to Duke started after that, and maybe pushed NC local non alums away a bit. Just spit balling theories here...some in the know can validate my theories, or knock them down, as the case may be....:)

Stray Gator
09-25-2018, 09:26 AM
I'm believe you are correct that Hurricane Florence possibly impacted attendance; however, I have attended every NCCU game since the series started and the truth is NCCU fans do not show up in large numbers. Even though the school is in Durham many other visiting teams bring much larger crowds than NCCU.

We took our son and two grandsons to this game, and opted to sit with them in Section 22 instead of using our regular seats in Section 27. While the areas on the opposite side of the stadium where visiting fans are usually seated were sparsely populated -- understandably so, considering that the strong direct sun must have made it feel like sitting under a broiler -- there were a lot of NCCU fans sitting around us in Section 22, which was comfortably shaded.

aimo
09-25-2018, 09:40 AM
We have always sat in either of the top two rows. We had drinks spilled on us, cigarette ashes and smoke (even after smoking was "banned" from the seating area). Had opposing fans scream in our ears. My dad was in a wheelchair, before the handicapped seating was all around, so he HAD to sit there. It was amazing how rude the jerks around him were. Now we have one of the handicap seating areas behind us, but towards the end of the games, others will drift in and once again lean over the railings and scream in our ears. FYI - that high-pitched whistling can really hurt other people's ears. There are other ways to cheer on your team.


And, yes, stay off my lawn!

Was loving our top seats Saturday, watching those seated at the bottom close to passing out once they neared the top.

BLPOG
09-25-2018, 10:06 AM
I love some of the ideas listed in this thread...and it is odd how few NCCU fans show up for this. I have always wondered about the "Bull City Proud" campaign, with the bull horns with the hands (or is that a set of devil horns?). From observation, growing up in Raleigh as a Duke fan, Duke and Durham have always just sort of tolerated each other. I live out of the area now, but I'd like to hear some feedback on the Bull City proud meme...is it working? Can it work? Many of you know a lot more about this than I. I would think a big NCCU showing at the game would be one of the obvious fruits of such a campaign were it working.

I remember my parents telling me, as we would see old photos from the late 30s, 40s and 50s with what appear to be big crowds in the stadium, that for a few decades Duke was simply a bigger deal in football than UNC or NC State. I also think they had more local alums back then...seems to me the serious Yankee migration to Duke started after that, and maybe pushed NC local non alums away a bit. Just spit balling theories here...some in the know can validate my theories, or knock them down, as the case may be...:)

I think the football program's efforts over the last ten years to improve the Duke brand in the eyes of Durham residents is working. That is not to say it is working as well as one would like. Cut's first year at Duke was my first year of undergrad, and I thought I could see a noticeable improvement by the time I graduated. I spoke to others who had followed the program or grew up in the area and they agreed, but I don't have any hard evidence to back it up. It could be our imaginations. There is another factor to take into account at this point, which is that there might now be a trend of more people moving to Durham who are sports-atheists, rather than being aligned with one team or another.

Regarding the second part of your comment, my impression is that it was just a different environment back then - not only for Duke, or football, but for public entertainment venues generally. I don't know which figure is the right one, but my understanding is that by some reasonably standard measure - it might just be average number of moviegoers - the number of people going to movies since the 40s or 50s has remained basically static.

ramdevil
09-25-2018, 10:09 AM
Folks, the stadium will be full on Saturday - VA Tech fans travel.

So let's try to fill the stadium with Duke fans. If you have season tickets, try turning them back into the ticket office. Or give them to Duke fans who live near Durham. Or something.

-ramdevil

PDDuke85
09-25-2018, 10:18 AM
I love some of the ideas listed in this thread...and it is odd how few NCCU fans show up for this. I have always wondered about the "Bull City Proud" campaign, with the bull horns with the hands (or is that a set of devil horns?). From observation, growing up in Raleigh as a Duke fan, Duke and Durham have always just sort of tolerated each other. I live out of the area now, but I'd like to hear some feedback on the Bull City proud meme...is it working? Can it work? Many of you know a lot more about this than I. I would think a big NCCU showing at the game would be one of the obvious fruits of such a campaign were it working.

I remember my parents telling me, as we would see old photos from the late 30s, 40s and 50s with what appear to be big crowds in the stadium, that for a few decades Duke was simply a bigger deal in football than UNC or NC State. I also think they had more local alums back then...seems to me the serious Yankee migration to Duke started after that, and maybe pushed NC local non alums away a bit. Just spit balling theories here...some in the know can validate my theories, or knock them down, as the case may be...:)

I credit Duke for Bull City proud campaign. Looking at NCCU attendance numbers from their home games last season, it's not surprising to have a sparse showing for a game they have zero chance of winning. Over the course of the series, games have been played at various times, in various weather conditions, with little change in attendance. Duke gets a win, NCCU gets a paycheck and life goes on. I am looking forward to seeing different teams representing Division 1AA (or whatever it's called) in the future


8682

uh_no
09-25-2018, 11:23 AM
I love some of the ideas listed in this thread...and it is odd how few NCCU fans show up for this. I have always wondered about the "Bull City Proud" campaign, with the bull horns with the hands (or is that a set of devil horns?). From observation, growing up in Raleigh as a Duke fan, Duke and Durham have always just sort of tolerated each other. I live out of the area now, but I'd like to hear some feedback on the Bull City proud meme...is it working? Can it work? Many of you know a lot more about this than I.


Durham is far more of an attraction than it was even 10 years ago. With it's current growth trajectory, I'd say Duke gets more than just "tolerating" Durham. People actually WANT to live here now.

As for Durham's view of the school, it's hard for any of us to say since we have a bit of a bias being on the "Duke" side of any line which might exist. Research lead me https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39627-Throw-dem-Bulls-Duke-s-marketing-tie-to-Durham which seems to indicate usage of the sign did not originate at duke. Regardless of origin, it has become a thing...last time I was at a bulls game, they asked fans to flash the bull sign for a chance to win something or other. Now whether Duke paid for that, who knows....but people associate it with Durham even if it is not ubiquitous.

For better or worse, the gentrification of city means the city has less of a problem with duke.

budwom
09-25-2018, 02:51 PM
The Iron Dukes email I just got seems to acknowledge that night games draw better crowds..."we are expecting a large crowd since it is a night game....."

mattman91
09-25-2018, 02:57 PM
The Iron Dukes email I just got seems to acknowledge that night games draw better crowds..."we are expecting a large crowd since it is a night game...."

So I should probably purchase tickets tonight? I plan on just buying GA.

budwom
09-25-2018, 03:06 PM
So I should probably purchase tickets tonight? I plan on just buying GA.

never a bad idea, but I think tickets will be available at the game, and there won't be any oven seats to avoid given the hour...I know VT travels well, but
two factors make me wonder if they may arrive with a smaller flock this time: 1) bad performance last week, and 2) night game...I recall a massive number of buses last time I saw them for a day game in WW, not an especially propitious hour this time for a long post game bus ride...

HereBeforeCoachK
09-25-2018, 03:48 PM
The Iron Dukes email I just got seems to acknowledge that night games draw better crowds..."we are expecting a large crowd since it is a night game...."

signed......Captain Obvious...:)

HereBeforeCoachK
09-25-2018, 03:51 PM
Durham is far more of an attraction than it was even 10 years ago. With it's current growth trajectory, I'd say Duke gets more than just "tolerating" Durham. People actually WANT to live here now.

As for Durham's view of the school, it's hard for any of us to say since we have a bit of a bias being on the "Duke" side of any line which might exist. Research lead me https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39627-Throw-dem-Bulls-Duke-s-marketing-tie-to-Durham which seems to indicate usage of the sign did not originate at duke. Regardless of origin, it has become a thing...last time I was at a bulls game, they asked fans to flash the bull sign for a chance to win something or other. Now whether Duke paid for that, who knows...but people associate it with Durham even if it is not ubiquitous.

For better or worse, the gentrification of city means the city has less of a problem with duke.

Now there is no doubt about the fact that Durham is changing, and for the better. Seriously, in ten years or less it's gone from h-ll hole to an interesting city with a lot to offer, and may be the best foodie town in the entire state. And clearly, Duke's attitude towards Durham is awesome now - it was the vice versa I was wondering about.

TruBlu
09-25-2018, 04:37 PM
Now there is no doubt about the fact that Durham is changing, and for the better. Seriously, in ten years or less it's gone from h-ll hole to an interesting city with a lot to offer, and may be the best foodie town in the entire state. And clearly, Duke's attitude towards Durham is awesome now - it was the vice versa I was wondering about.

There are some folks who claim that Durham greatly improved about 34 years ago at the same time that I moved from Durham to Atlanta. I know that both cities got better looking, and the average IQ of both cities increased at the exact same time. A lot of coincidences, huh?

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-25-2018, 05:05 PM
Now there is no doubt about the fact that Durham is changing, and for the better. Seriously, in ten years or less it's gone from h-ll hole to an interesting city with a lot to offer, and may be the best foodie town in the entire state. And clearly, Duke's attitude towards Durham is awesome now - it was the vice versa I was wondering about.

Phail Wynn, who retired recently from VP at Duke, did a lot to make the change in relationship between town and gown improve. He had been the president of Durham Tech for more than 30 years before being hired at Duke. He died of a heart attack less than a month following his retirement. His widow and son were honored at the Army game.

devilirium
09-25-2018, 08:28 PM
The heat and sun was brutal on the TV side. Need to make the Tower on the other side significantly taller or create clouds every game to cover the sun. My best answer is to provide free tickets to the Duke community every game, once the sun problem is solved. Duke makes their money on TV revenue. Get the people in the stands to create a community. Those who want the great seats can pay for them- but again make it reasonable.

I like the idea of solving the sun problem with a larger obstruction on top of the Tower better than free tickets. They gave out free tickets this past weekend, and the effect was negligible. And every year (save this year), there were ticket specials aplenty on social media, Meet the Devils, etc. for less than it cost to go to a movie for some games. To the average Duke fan, the season doesn't really start til October--traditionally Duke has rarely had strong attendance records in September (save for once a decade opponent like Alabama). Looking back at the pre internet Spurrier years, the attendance was meh until the ACC season started. Aside from that, Duke needs to knock off some traditional powerhouses at home (like VT) and capitalize on hot starts. I think the attendance this year has been a little better than after the 10 win year in 2013. Part of that, I think is that Duke has won its last 2 bowl games, and the team was actually picked to finish as a darkhorse candidate for the Coastal. The other part is that Duke has smartly not scheduled 4 home Sept games in a row---like they normally do. When I talked to a Duke beat writer about this he stated, "Duke is going to refrain from doing this (or try to), because people just delay going to the game if they can go to the next game".


But I think it's more than the heat. There are plenty of schools, private and public, that have noon games, 3:30 tips, etc that have strong attendance in September that do no warrant heavyweight status; and, that are not necessarily successful all the time (ECU and South Carolina come to mind). I think for Duke to take the next step, and this has been mentioned before if they want to emphasize better crowd attendance--it's to schedule the ECUs, the Apps, the South Carolinas of the world. Regional teams that travel well and generate interest. But I don't think that Duke wants to go down that road, because it doesn't necessarily mesh well against the teams that are considered recruiting rivals, or tough teams that carry hefty price tags (like App).

HereBeforeCoachK
09-25-2018, 09:44 PM
I like the idea of solving the sun problem with a larger obstruction on top of the Tower better than free tickets. They gave out free tickets this past weekend, and the effect was negligible.....But I think it's more than the heat. There are plenty of schools, private and public, that have noon games, 3:30 tips, etc that have strong attendance in September that do no warrant heavyweight status; and, that are not necessarily successful all the time (ECU and South Carolina come to mind)..

The biggest problem Duke faces is demographics...there's simply not enough students and local alums to fill the stadium, and not being "the University of" - Duke doesn't necessarily have hundreds of thousands of fans who are not affiliated with the school the way the cheats do, and the way all "university of's" do. But there's nothing we can do about that (but shrink the stadium).

I think the sun situation is a major situation that maybe can be addressed.

As for South Carolina and ECU, those are not analogs for the situation at Duke. SC is a "university of" - in a football state - and while the Gamecocks are not always good, their home atmosphere is always big time. Williams Brice Stadium, especially at night, is an under-rated football atmosphere. As for ECU, they get a little of that regional "university of" thing going on, and it's kind of the school for all of Eastern NC. Duke has no such built in fan base. Never ever will.

Small private schools face an uphill battle in all sports, none more than football.

uh_no
09-25-2018, 10:07 PM
I like the idea of solving the sun problem with a larger obstruction on top of the Tower
http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ztSKD3hb8NI/UYyCLDvD7LI/AAAAAAABFnI/M9eW1Zz551k/s600/Screen%2520Shot%25202013-05-10%2520at%25203.13.55%2520PM.png

devilirium
09-25-2018, 10:09 PM
The biggest problem Duke faces is demographics...there's simply not enough students and local alums to fill the stadium, and not being "the University of" - Duke doesn't necessarily have hundreds of thousands of fans who are not affiliated with the school the way the cheats do, and the way all "university of's" do. But there's nothing we can do about that (but shrink the stadium).

I think the sun situation is a major situation that maybe can be addressed.

As for South Carolina and ECU, those are not analogs for the situation at Duke. SC is a "university of" - in a football state - and while the Gamecocks are not always good, their home atmosphere is always big time. Williams Brice Stadium, especially at night, is an under-rated football atmosphere. As for ECU, they get a little of that regional "university of" thing going on, and it's kind of the school for all of Eastern NC. Duke has no such built in fan base. Never ever will.

Small private schools face an uphill battle in all sports, none more than football.

True, it's less valid with the private schools (Im betting the smaller privates like Wofford though fill it up, and Wake in recent years did well with attendance) but I think there would be more people than you would think that would want to see App or South Carolina here at Duke than you would think. I remember attending that game in '78 in Wade as a young'un and there was a decent crowd back then. Duke just doesn't want to fork over the money to a school like App ( I think it's less about the supposed "embarrassment" of losing to them). The bottom line is that Duke needs help from the travelling team to fill the stadium, but there are certain teams that carry more attractiveness than others. With regard to shrinking the stadium, I don't see that happening especially with the prospect of entertaining a team like ND next year. You're leaving a substantial amount of revenue on the table for getting a team like for Duke let alone Durham if you shrink the stadium (games with UNC, VT, Miami come to mind)--and I realize that you casually mentioned that idea.

CameronBornAndBred
09-25-2018, 10:43 PM
I think the sun situation is a major situation that maybe can be addressed.

Games should only be scheduled on cloudy days until November! :D:rolleyes:

Reilly
09-25-2018, 10:43 PM
... The bottom line is that Duke needs help from the travelling team to fill the stadium ...

Map of 130 FBS teams: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?msa=0&mid=1gBqRBgMUsaDZK0N9Rr1bsO4MKhg&ll=36.06739621174093%2C-78.546004734375&z=7

BLPOG
09-25-2018, 11:50 PM
http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ztSKD3hb8NI/UYyCLDvD7LI/AAAAAAABFnI/M9eW1Zz551k/s600/Screen%2520Shot%25202013-05-10%2520at%25203.13.55%2520PM.png

8684

peloton
06-17-2019, 09:11 PM
Reasonably priced craft beer stands.

You just might get your wish sooner than you thought. WRAL reports "House Bill 389 cleared the N.C. Senate Monday night on a bipartisan 33-12 vote. It would allow sales in college stadiums if university boards of trustees at individual campuses consent."

I suspect this is great news to many here on DBR (it is to me at least), based on previous discussion regarding how to improve the gameday experience in Wallace Wade.

Bluedog
06-17-2019, 09:17 PM
You just might get your wish sooner than you thought. WRAL reports "House Bill 389 cleared the N.C. Senate Monday night on a bipartisan 33-12 vote. It would allow sales in college stadiums if university boards of trustees at individual campuses consent."

I suspect this is great news to many here on DBR (it is to me at least), based on previous discussion regarding how to improve the gameday experience in Wallace Wade.

This doesn't impact Duke given, as a private institution, Duke could have already offered alcohol at its sporting events if it had chosen to do so. I believe Wake does.

mattman91
06-17-2019, 09:23 PM
This doesn't impact Duke given, as a private institution, Duke could have already offered alcohol at its sporting events if it had chosen to do so. I believe Wake does.

Yep. I know wake does at their basketball games. They have plenty of Foothills beer on tap :cool:

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-17-2019, 10:50 PM
Yep. I know wake does at their basketball games. They have plenty of Foothills beer on tap :cool:

Beer is sold at the football games as well. Neither facility is located on the Wake Forest campus.

budwom
06-18-2019, 07:43 AM
We've been kicking around the question of how to get bigger crowds at WW on another board, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents, and maybe that's overpriced.

Some things won't change: Duke's a modest sized private school with a small local alumni base, surrounded by much larger and more popular state schools. And all the games are on TV. But the problem isn't insurmountable.

The key is winning...that hasn't happened a whole lot in Durham in the past 50 years, but when it has, people DO show up.

Case in point: Duke started well last year, had some fine wins (4-0) including at NW...we were ranked #22, and as a result, the TV gods gave us a night game at home vs Virginia Tech. And we played like dog poo....there was a nice
crowd there (32k announced, maybe a tad exaggerated, but it was a really good atmosphere)....Duke's performance sucked the energy out of the place (VT had previously been thwacked by Old Dominion, it wasn't one of their better teams, but they dominated Duke regardless of what the stats may imply).

Perhaps a more important observation: as a result of this poor performance, Duke was given the ugly noon slot two weeks hence vs UVA, only 20k (if that) showed up, lousy atmosphere, lousier on field performance. The point being, when Duke wins, people will show up...and by winning you get better time slots, which only helps the attendance and enthusiasm level...

fuse
06-18-2019, 07:50 AM
I’m sure I’ve said it before, so just for fun:

1- free admission for all. Reserve press box side 40 to 40 for Iron Dukes if you must
2- Beer
3- rewards system. Spend a dollar, get a point. Redeem points for in stadium food or gear. Points available for spending next game.

The huge step forward Cut has done for Duke is to transform from a team that was difficult to watch into a high level competitive football team.

budwom
06-18-2019, 07:53 AM
I’m sure I’ve said it before, so just for fun:

1- free admission for all. Reserve press box side 40 to 40 for Iron Dukes if you must
2- Beer
3- rewards system. Spend a dollar, get a point. Redeem points for in stadium food or gear. Points available for spending next game.

The huge step forward Cut has done for Duke is to transform from a team that was difficult to watch into a high level competitive football team.

Unless they markedly improve their stadium food, I don't want any of it. Pathetic they can't do better. Even the food for the high rollers in The Tower is lame. Though they do get beer.

Sixthman
06-18-2019, 08:20 AM
The key is winning...that hasn't happened a whole lot in Durham in the past 50 years, but when it has, people DO show up.

Case in point: Duke started well last year, had some fine wins (4-0) including at NW...we were ranked #22, and as a result, the TV gods gave us a night game at home vs Virginia Tech. And we played like dog poo...there was a nice
crowd there (32k announced, maybe a tad exaggerated, but it was a really good atmosphere)...Duke's performance sucked the energy out of the place (VT had previously been thwacked by Old Dominion, it wasn't one of their better teams, but they dominated Duke regardless of what the stats may imply)....

This is dead on. I’ve been at Wally Wade through Franks and Roof, and before. It’s been great with Cut. The failure to win when a big crowd shows up, though, hasn’t been just bad, but epic. It feels like one big win against a quality opponent in a night game with a big crowd would fuel attendance for a couple of seasons.

CameronBornAndBred
06-18-2019, 09:16 AM
This is dead on. I’ve been at Wally Wade through Franks and Roof, and before. It’s been great with Cut. The failure to win when a big crowd shows up, though, hasn’t been just bad, but epic. It feels like one big win against a quality opponent in a night game with a big crowd would fuel attendance for a couple of seasons.

Not that laying an egg in front of a big crowd in a big game doesn't help, but Duke hasn't always folded at night. Duke won a very exciting game (28-27) against the Trubisky led Heels a couple years ago. And of course, had the refs not made the worst calls ever known to the game of football, Duke would have beaten Miami in 2015.
There needs to be more than one big (or one close) game, though. That infamous Miami loss leeched into a downward spiral. The team finished 8-5 that year, with a win in the Pinstripe, but OH WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN! The victory over the Heels unfortunately was followed by drubbings from Pitt and Miami in away games, and we stayed home in the post-season.

So showing up on the big stage is one thing, showing up the next game, whether at home or away, is even more important.
In other words, not just winning, but steady winning, will put fannies in the seats. Anything else will put fannies on the couch.

BLPOG
06-18-2019, 09:41 AM
Having a team that can win helps. Winning exciting games against good teams or rivals helps.

But those aren't real, actionable strategies to get people into Wallace Wade. They are only marginally more useful plans than "drive the fastest" to win a stock car race.

The beer angle really is the key here. It doesn't even have to be beer per se, that's just one example of the overall required transformation. Have y'all seen what they are doing at pro sports stadiums/arenas in the last few years, especially at ballparks? They are transforming them into a great experience even for people that don't care a lick about the game. There's great food, drinks, and activities. Wallace Wade already has a bit of this sort of thing, but Duke needs to embrace the strategy wholeheartedly, especially as a supplement to the modest tailgating experience afforded by the Blue Zone and Cameron lots. It's the type of atmosphere that is perfectly in sync with the new Durham, which is replete with people enjoying the sun outside their favorite brew pubs on Saturdays and Sundays. Let those businesses come in and offer special game-day selections.

TL;DR let people drink overpriced but good beer in the sun

AustinDevil
06-18-2019, 10:19 AM
Having a team that can win helps. Winning exciting games against good teams or rivals helps.

But those aren't real, actionable strategies to get people into Wallace Wade. They are only marginally more useful plans than "drive the fastest" to win a stock car race.

The beer angle really is the key here. It doesn't even have to be beer per se, that's just one example of the overall required transformation. Have y'all seen what they are doing at pro sports stadiums/arenas in the last few years, especially at ballparks? They are transforming them into a great experience even for people that don't care a lick about the game. There's great food, drinks, and activities. Wallace Wade already has a bit of this sort of thing, but Duke needs to embrace the strategy wholeheartedly, especially as a supplement to the modest tailgating experience afforded by the Blue Zone and Cameron lots. It's the type of atmosphere that is perfectly in sync with the new Durham, which is replete with people enjoying the sun outside their favorite brew pubs on Saturdays and Sundays. Let those businesses come in and offer special game-day selections.

TL;DR let people drink overpriced but good beer in the sun

+1.

And, eat something decent. If only Durham had a good food scene that Duke could tap into, darnit.

4Gen
06-18-2019, 10:30 AM
I’m sure I’ve said it before, so just for fun:

free admission for all.
.

I like this idea. Admission is, for all practical purposes, free anyway. High school football tickets are expensive by comparison, and if you don't buy a ticket, you can rest assured that by game time, bringing a can of beans or having an uncle who participated in the Civil War will qualify you for admission to the game. Once the word quickly spreads that admission is free, I think the stadium would burst at the seams and the incidental money would flow and the atmosphere would electrify.

CameronBornAndBred
06-18-2019, 10:54 AM
I’m sure I’ve said it before, so just for fun:

1- free admission for all. Reserve press box side 40 to 40 for Iron Dukes if you must
2- Beer
3- rewards system. Spend a dollar, get a point. Redeem points for in stadium food or gear. Points available for spending next game.

The huge step forward Cut has done for Duke is to transform from a team that was difficult to watch into a high level competitive football team.

Obviously Duke has lots of people to pay on game day, so "free" won't work, but kids for free would be doable, as long as they are accompanied by a ticket holding parent. And kids likely spend more at the concession stands than the adults do, so it would probably at the very least work out even, if not be more profitable.

budwom
06-18-2019, 11:30 AM
Having a team that can win helps. Winning exciting games against good teams or rivals helps.

But those aren't real, actionable strategies to get people into Wallace Wade. They are only marginally more useful plans than "drive the fastest" to win a stock car race.

The beer angle really is the key here. It doesn't even have to be beer per se, that's just one example of the overall required transformation. Have y'all seen what they are doing at pro sports stadiums/arenas in the last few years, especially at ballparks? They are transforming them into a great experience even for people that don't care a lick about the game. There's great food, drinks, and activities. Wallace Wade already has a bit of this sort of thing, but Duke needs to embrace the strategy wholeheartedly, especially as a supplement to the modest tailgating experience afforded by the Blue Zone and Cameron lots. It's the type of atmosphere that is perfectly in sync with the new Durham, which is replete with people enjoying the sun outside their favorite brew pubs on Saturdays and Sundays. Let those businesses come in and offer special game-day selections.

TL;DR let people drink overpriced but good beer in the sun

I do like the beer angle, but feel it will do better with fewer noon games, and the key to fewer noon games is winning...had we beaten VT last year, I'm sure we would have received a better slot than the noon one we got vs UVA...

Reilly
06-18-2019, 11:40 AM
Unless they markedly improve their stadium food, I don't want any of it. Pathetic they can't do better ...

There are Hog Heaven bbq sandwiches available for $5 or maybe $6 now from the Hog Heaven concession on the east side. I've been to a lot of stadiums in my life, and cannot think of anything better, anywhere, for that price.

Acymetric
06-18-2019, 11:40 AM
Beer is sold at the football games as well. Neither facility is located on the Wake Forest campus.

I just want to clarify that while this is true it doesn't matter (there is no rule involved that depends on on campus vs. off). Not selling alcohol at the stadium seems specially silly since Duke sells beer on campus.


Unless they markedly improve their stadium food, I don't want any of it. Pathetic they can't do better. Even the food for the high rollers in The Tower is lame. Though they do get beer.

Outside of Hog Heaven and Highway 55 burgers the food is absolute trash, even by stadium food standards. Some of the worst I've ever had anywhere. The chicken tenders are passable.


Not that laying an egg in front of a big crowd in a big game doesn't help, but Duke hasn't always folded at night. Duke won a very exciting game (28-27) against the Trubisky led Heels a couple years ago. And of course, had the refs not made the worst calls ever known to the game of football, Duke would have beaten Miami in 2015.
There needs to be more than one big (or one close) game, though. That infamous Miami loss leeched into a downward spiral. The team finished 8-5 that year, with a win in the Pinstripe, but OH WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN! The victory over the Heels unfortunately was followed by drubbings from Pitt and Miami in away games, and we stayed home in the post-season.

So showing up on the big stage is one thing, showing up the next game, whether at home or away, is even more important.
In other words, not just winning, but steady winning, will put fannies in the seats. Anything else will put fannies on the couch.

I think the biggest problem is that when we lose at home, we lose ugly. An awful lot of games where we just looked totally outclassed from kickoff to the final whistle. If we were losing at home 55-54 it wouldn't be such a problem (we save those games for @Pitt), but we have a tendency to lose at home with 7-34 type scores. Losing is always disappointing, but a game can still be fun up until it ends in a loss...we have a tendency to make our losses excruciating experiences.

budwom
06-18-2019, 11:54 AM
I will try the Hog Heaven, the irony being that we sat on the Sahara like East side for decades, now that we have resettled on the West side, they get some edible food eh?

Meanwhile the food stands are manned by amiable zombies who could not be slower if they tried, and sometimes they do. (getting bottled water on a hot day can be a struggle)

4Gen
06-18-2019, 12:01 PM
Obviously Duke has lots of people to pay on game day, so "free" won't work, but kids for free would be doable, as long as they are accompanied by a ticket holding parent. And kids likely spend more at the concession stands than the adults do, so it would probably at the very least work out even, if not be more profitable.

I bet you would be surprised at how very little money is generated in ticket sales. The cheapest season tickets are about $6 a game and as I alluded to above, weekly promotions start giving tickets away at $5 or less (or free). I think that most who buy the expensive tickets do so as a virtual donation to Duke sports, and their support wouldn't change. Go free for a year and I bet we would never go back. A full stadium, an exuberant and loyal fan base, and motivated recruits would be hard to give up.

Bob Green
06-18-2019, 01:25 PM
The cheapest season tickets are about $6 a game...

Your math appears to be a little off as it cost me $342 to purchase four season tickets in General Admission (cheapest tickets available). That is 24 tickets total which equates to $14.25 per ticket. Each season ticket was $78 ($312) plus a $30 shipping and handling charge for a total cost of $342.

4Gen
06-18-2019, 03:24 PM
Let's be very generous and say the average paid price for a football ticket at Duke is $20.00. Let's be even more generous and say Duke averages 15,000 paid tickets per game. At six games per season, that's $1.8M, which is a statistically insignificant amount of money for a P5 football program. I stand by my belief (speculative though it may be) that free would work wonders for the program. At the very least, the financial hit would be negligible.

dukelifer
06-18-2019, 03:40 PM
Let's be very generous and say the average paid price for a football ticket at Duke is $20.00. Let's be even more generous and say Duke averages 15,000 paid tickets per game. At six games per season, that's $1.8M, which is a statistically insignificant amount of money for a P5 football program. I stand by my belief (speculative though it may be) that free would work wonders for the program. At the very least, the financial hit would be negligible.

I think no more than a movie ticket and perhaps free for kids. The biggest complaint for me is that the visitors side of the stadium can get very hot and the sun can make it hard to see. That is an issue for many.

moonpie23
06-18-2019, 03:44 PM
I hesitate to reply to this thread, lest i say too much. My problem is my son is special needs, uses a walker, and distances over 20 or 30 yards are very difficult for him. The handicapped parking (formerly free) places used to be in the Iron Dukes parking lot, at the bottom of the hill where you go up to cameron and WW. They had golf-cart thingies that would take you from that parking lot up to the loop. Sam had, at best, a 15yard walk to the gates...now, everything is different.

we had to park in the whitford (paid) and come all the way around the entire stadium to ride the elevator down to the field level (scoreboard end) cross the field at the end zone to access the handicap seating, because there's no ramp access to those seats on that side. probably 300 yards total... sheesh...


#2. the sun is blistering on that side. sorry to sound like a whimp, but that's one of the things that keep us from going...the kids hate it..

#3 spotty cell service and slow wifi...



i told y'all i shouldn't have replied.

sagegrouse
06-18-2019, 03:55 PM
Let's be very generous and say the average paid price for a football ticket at Duke is $20.00. Let's be even more generous and say Duke averages 15,000 paid tickets per game. At six games per season, that's $1.8M, which is a statistically insignificant amount of money for a P5 football program. I stand by my belief (speculative though it may be) that free would work wonders for the program. At the very least, the financial hit would be negligible.

When I was at Notre Dame for the Duke game three years ago, I paid over $100 and there were 82,000 people there. Using my mindless extrapolation techniques, Notre Dame earned $8.2 million for one game.

I checked season ticket prices. Notre Dame has an "annual membership" for each kind of seat -- shades of Cameron! Combining seat price plus memberships shows a range of $1,150 to $4,200 for the six-game 2019 season. So, $190 to $700 per game. My mindless estimate looks low.

Bob Green
06-18-2019, 04:00 PM
I stand by my belief (speculative though it may be) that free would work wonders for the program.

I do not disagree with your base point I was merely pointing out $6 per ticket was low (~ 240% low if my weak math skills are not failing me). Concession Stand profits from increased attendance would easily make up for the price of admission.

Free parking was made available several years ago but it didn't have any noticeable impact on attendance. Personally, I never had an issue paying $10 to park but free is better.

As a multi-year season ticket holder, the special discount tickets that are routinely made available tend to irritate me. Offering $5 general admission tickets to folks who live in Durham zip codes for example. Excuse me...I paid a very reasonable full price times four and drive 3.5 hours from Virginia to attend the game so how about giving me something. What does Duke give to all the year in, year out loyal season ticket holders? Nothing!

But I love watching Duke football in Wallace Wade Stadium so I'll keep coming and watching as long as I am able. I've lots of wonderful memories from years past and I hope to have lots more wonderful experiences in the years to come.

4Gen
06-18-2019, 04:27 PM
Like you, Bob, I buy four cheap season tickets. My kids are all grown and I don't need to buy but one ticket, but I do it for support. I try to give them away locally in my town. I make it to about about 3-4 games a year.

Free was not my idea. I took it from another poster. But I like it. It's time to think way outside the box. And a consistently filled Wade would interject life into a longtime lifeless program, with sincere apologies to Cut, who is administering CPR at an incredible pace.

devildeac
06-18-2019, 04:42 PM
I do not disagree with your base point I was merely pointing out $6 per ticket was low (~ 240% low if my weak math skills are not failing me). Concession Stand profits from increased attendance would easily make up for the price of admission.

Free parking was made available several years ago but it didn't have any noticeable impact on attendance. Personally, I never had an issue paying $10 to park but free is better.

As a multi-year season ticket holder, the special discount tickets that are routinely made available tend to irritate me. Offering $5 general admission tickets to folks who live in Durham zip codes for example. Excuse me...I paid a very reasonable full price times four and drive 3.5 hours from Virginia to attend the game so how about giving me something. What does Duke give to all the year in, year out loyal season ticket holders? Nothing!

But I love watching Duke football in Wallace Wade Stadium so I'll keep coming and watching as long as I am able. I've lots of wonderful memories from years past and I hope to have lots more wonderful experiences in the years to come.

Plus y'all are well fed and have some outstanding craft beers readily available to you. :D;)

CameronBornAndBred
06-18-2019, 05:30 PM
#3 spotty cell service and slow wifi...


And by some miracle, I even showed up in the Franks/Roof years. ;):rolleyes::p

devildeac
06-18-2019, 06:01 PM
And by some miracle, I even showed up in the Franks/Roof years. :rolleyes::p

Wait, do you mean actually inside WW or are you counting sleeping under our cheap little tent in one of the Blue Zone lots? :rolleyes::p

fuse
06-18-2019, 06:11 PM
Like you, Bob, I buy four cheap season tickets. My kids are all grown and I don't need to buy but one ticket, but I do it for support. I try to give them away locally in my town. I make it to about about 3-4 games a year.

Free was not my idea. I took it from another poster. But I like it. It's time to think way outside the box. And a consistently filled Wade would interject life into a longtime lifeless program, with sincere apologies to Cut, who is administering CPR at an incredible pace.

Another angle could be, buy a ticket for $1 and get $5 in in stadium food/gear credits.

I can only admire what Cut had done for Duke football. Overcoming the damage done over an extended period of time prior to Cut’s tenure will require a great hook to attract and grow a new local fan base.

As noted in another thread, this also requires taking risks like playing teams like ECU and App State that will draw in fans of other NC teams.

Duke athletics has a decision to make in the short term. What is more important, a full stadium or in stadium revenue (tickets, concessions, etc)? Duke faces the challenge of making football a must attend event that if you are in town, you’d be foolish to miss.

OldPhiKap
06-18-2019, 06:27 PM
Raffle off an autographed football, and an autographed basketball, at every game. The ticket is free, but you gotta be present to win.

Beer sales.

Upgraded concessions.

Better parking and less hassle to get there.


All of those are neat gimmicks. But a steady diet of 10-2 and 9-3 puts butts in the seats. You gotta make folks want to sit in the sun when they can just sit in their recliners. You have to make the atmosphere such that you feel like you are missing something by not being there.

fuse
06-18-2019, 07:02 PM
Raffle off an autographed football, and an autographed basketball, at every game. The ticket is free, but you gotta be present to win.

Beer sales.

Upgraded concessions.

Better parking and less hassle to get there.


All of those are neat gimmicks. But a steady diet of 10-2 and 9-3 puts butts in the seats. You gotta make folks want to sit in the sun when they can just sit in their recliners. You have to make the atmosphere such that you feel like you are missing something by not being there.

The raffle idea is brilliant.

Raffle upgraded seats, a box, or even pregame/post game sideline access.

I agree in principle a lot of ideas to generate attendance are gimmicks.

The sun and heat do present a challenge- give away Duke umbrellas or Duke umbrella hats?

If those gimmicks create an enjoyable experience, there is the opportunity to cultivate loyalty.

DukieInKansas
06-18-2019, 07:40 PM
Raffle off an autographed football, and an autographed basketball, at every game. The ticket is free, but you gotta be present to win.

Beer sales.

Upgraded concessions.

Better parking and less hassle to get there.


All of those are neat gimmicks. But a steady diet of 10-2 and 9-3 puts butts in the seats. You gotta make folks want to sit in the sun when they can just sit in their recliners. You have to make the atmosphere such that you feel like you are missing something by not being there.


The raffle idea is brilliant.

Raffle upgraded seats, a box, or even pregame/post game sideline access.

I agree in principle a lot of ideas to generate attendance are gimmicks.

The sun and heat do present a challenge- give away Duke umbrellas or Duke umbrella hats?

If those gimmicks create an enjoyable experience, there is the opportunity to cultivate loyalty.

With the raffle in the 4th quarter

Go back to the days of letting you leave the stadium and return. Clemson manages to do it, I don't know why Duke can't.

NYBri
06-18-2019, 07:53 PM
If Daniel Jones becomes a star, things might change.

moonpie23
06-18-2019, 08:31 PM
wait. there’s no beer????

HereBeforeCoachK
06-18-2019, 08:58 PM
I can only admire what Cut had done for Duke football. Overcoming the damage done over an extended period of time prior to Cut’s tenure will require a great hook to attract and grow a new local fan base..

It's bigger problem than that. Small school, many alums out of state. Duke FB fights an uphill battle on demographics....population.

richmclean
06-18-2019, 09:31 PM
We’ve had Duke- UNC games jammed packed in the past decade so it can happen.
Our depth to withstand injuries is a key factor for beating teams we usually compete with - UNC, UVA, WF, PITT. MIA and VT are usually only a good target when we’re up and they’re down.

OldPhiKap
06-18-2019, 09:53 PM
It's bigger problem than that. Small school, many alums out of state. Duke FB fights an uphill battle on demographics...population.

Exactly, you have to build a local base.

I have gone to more bowl games and away games than home games in the last ten years because I am in Georgia. The only games I know that I will make this year are the games against Bama in ATL and then our bowl games. I am comfortable to say that I support our football team more than many — but getting to Durham is tough. LOCAL folks need a reason to go.

fuse
06-18-2019, 09:56 PM
It's bigger problem than that. Small school, many alums out of state. Duke FB fights an uphill battle on demographics...population.

Alumni numbers locally, I will grant you.

Ballpark, Chapel Hill has 60k residents and Durham 260k.

Alumni or not, you need ten percent of the Durham population to take a vested interest in Duke football and you’d have a full venue.

jimmymax
06-18-2019, 10:26 PM
I'd avoid 15-501 and Erwin and take Pickett. Get on 751 only briefly before parking in the neighborhoods, ideally on Cranford. Put the parking money saved into some good local beer and then walk in, hoping not to be run over due to the egregious lack of sidewalks. But that's just me.

uh_no
06-18-2019, 10:42 PM
Concession Stand profits from increased attendance would easily make up for the price of admission.


I would hope that members of the athletic department, with more exact revenue/attendance/concession numbers are doing this kind of analysis regularly. While I don't doubt we might have more creative ideas at times, I'm skeptical that the department would get something as basic as the effect of ticket price on attendance and concessions wrong...but who knows?



This year is interesting with the schedule backloaded with home games....which will hopefully make for some great weather. We could see some good crowds for those last 3 games, and only the A&T game looks like a (hopefully...) snoozer. Ideally we won't lay offensive eggs in the others...regularly going significant portions of home games without scoring is so hard to get up for....half our home games <=14 points last year.

ready for it to get goin'.

Barnstormer
06-18-2019, 10:53 PM
I think we should add an exhibition game with NCCU to week -1. The first game of the year is always one to work out the kinks but no division 1 team should play Division 2 or whatever they call it during the season. An exhibition game with NCCU would attract local crowds and give the teams an opportunity to run plays without concern for the effects. Likewise in the spring I would like to see an exhibition game played with a lower division team in place of a glorified scrimmage within the team.

One of our non conference games should always be NC State. Local fans would support it.

Beer needs to be sold at the game to anyone over the age of 21.

Make the game more friendly to the fans at halftime .

jimmymax
06-18-2019, 11:18 PM
Make the game more friendly to the fans at halftime .

That would mean once again allowing folks to leave and re-enter, which would hurt sales of the not-yet-sold beer.

I stopped buying season tickets due to the front-loading of noon home games in August and September. I have no interest in baking in the sun. I prefer crisp, fall, "football weather". I buy tickets for select games based on the opponent and the weather.

hallcity
06-19-2019, 03:00 AM
The sun on the East side is definitely a serious problem but there’s a ready solution. Get a ticket on the West side under the overhang. It will cost a few bucks more but you won’t be in the sun. Tickets are always available.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-19-2019, 05:23 AM
Alumni numbers locally, I will grant you.

Ballpark, Chapel Hill has 60k residents and Durham 260k.

Alumni or not, you need ten percent of the Durham population to take a vested interest in Duke football and you’d have a full venue.

You're missing a huge point. Those "Durham" residents are also residents of the state of NC....and Chapel Hill "residents" are merely a rounding error in the NC fan base, much of which has to do with nothing more than the state and the University sharing a name. It's the massive inherent value the "University ofs" have and that Duke will never and can never have. Durham v Chapel Hill residents is a fact with no relevance here. More Durham residents, not attached to either school, are Cheat fans.

budwom
06-19-2019, 07:33 AM
I would hope that members of the athletic department, with more exact revenue/attendance/concession numbers are doing this kind of analysis regularly. While I don't doubt we might have more creative ideas at times, I'm skeptical that the department would get something as basic as the effect of ticket price on attendance and concessions wrong...but who knows?



This year is interesting with the schedule backloaded with home games...which will hopefully make for some great weather. We could see some good crowds for those last 3 games, and only the A&T game looks like a (hopefully...) snoozer. Ideally we won't lay offensive eggs in the others...regularly going significant portions of home games without scoring is so hard to get up for...half our home games <=14 points last year.

ready for it to get goin'.

I think you give the department WAY too much credit...my conversations with some of them just make me sad...
As stated before, if we WIN, more people come, we get better time slots from ESPN so even more people (who hate sun stroke) come, on and on. Gonna be a tough year this year for a variety of reasons, but I'm more hopeful about 2020...

HereBeforeCoachK
06-19-2019, 08:30 AM
I think you give the department WAY too much credit...my conversations with some of them just make me sad...
As stated before, if we WIN, more people come, we get better time slots from ESPN so even more people (who hate sun stroke) come, on and on. Gonna be a tough year this year for a variety of reasons, but I'm more hopeful about 2020...

All of this is true....but looking to Cameron as an analogy, by big time program standards, Duke's home BB attendance is low. But it doesn't matter, because the building is historic, and tiny, so the home atmosphere is amazing. They should have contemplated those concepts when they had a pot full of money to renovate Wade. Clearly they didn't. There are FB stadia in this country where 20-30 thousand fans create a great atmosphere....and there were some things they could've done to Wade to re-create some of that. Instead, they were all into aesthetics and the gothic rock and the obscenely big press box and so on. Meanwhile, the atmosphere for the players is no better than it was before.

Sometimes I wonder if the Duke Athletic Department is K, Cut, Pollard, and a bunch of idiots.

fuse
06-19-2019, 08:51 AM
You're missing a huge point. Those "Durham" residents are also residents of the state of NC...and Chapel Hill "residents" are merely a rounding error in the NC fan base, much of which has to do with nothing more than the state and the University sharing a name. It's the massive inherent value the "University ofs" have and that Duke will never and can never have. Durham v Chapel Hill residents is a fact with no relevance here. More Durham residents, not attached to either school, are Cheat fans.

Respectfully, I’m not missing any of the points you’ve articulated. Your points merely highlight the challenge.

We know there are not 25k local Duke alumni (?).
Even if there were, there would never be 100% attendance from alumni.

If an assumption is made that you get 5k local alumni and their family, and (depending on team/fan base) a few hundred opponent fans, where are you expecting other attendees to come from if not Durham (and maybe Wake, Orange, and Chatham)?

What solutions are you proposing to attract people to games?

BLPOG
06-19-2019, 09:03 AM
You're missing a huge point. Those "Durham" residents are also residents of the state of NC...and Chapel Hill "residents" are merely a rounding error in the NC fan base, much of which has to do with nothing more than the state and the University sharing a name. It's the massive inherent value the "University ofs" have and that Duke will never and can never have. Durham v Chapel Hill residents is a fact with no relevance here. More Durham residents, not attached to either school, are Cheat fans.

Durham demographics are changing in the direction of "unaffiliated" rather than Cheat fans specifically. Picking up the unaffiliated fans is a heck of a lot easier than the Cheat fans.

Regardless, the way to do it is what I mentioned a couple days back. Attendance is declining practically everywhere, not because people have lost interest in sports, but because they have better options. The key is to make game day a better option, in part by incorporating things that people would be doing otherwise and thus lessening the opportunity cost.

Let people drink beer outside.

CrazyNotCrazie
06-19-2019, 09:15 AM
I remember one time hearing a statistic that there are more UNC alumni in the state of NC than there are Duke alumni in the world. That explains our problem - unless we tap into the local fan base and make the games interesting, we are not going to draw. And it would also be helpful to make it compelling enough that alums within driving distance (Atlanta-DC) want to come in for a game or two. I know lots of alums come down from the DC area for basketball so we need to make them want to do so for football. For a 3:30 game, you can drive down that morning, go to the game, hit a favorite bar/restaurant, go to a hotel and drive back the next day.

I know there are a lot of beer fans on DBR but I think adding beer to the stadium is really low on the list. You think the concession lines are slow now? Imagine how they will be when they are checking IDs, pouring beer, etc.? And you will have to pay for more police officers. I am not a big drinker but I don't know many people for whom drinking is a deciding factor as to whether they go to a game. And not having beer likely makes the game more attractive to some groups of people, so there is a tradeoff.

As the parent of elementary school aged kids (which I think is the target audience), my main concerns are ticket prices, ease of access (I don't want to be parking miles away), and a fun product on the field. I live in NYC and periodically take my kids to Columbia football games. It is a short subway ride from my home (no parking issues), tickets are cheap, and they sometimes have bouncy castles or meet the mascot events. Granted, one of the other attractions to me is that the stadium is usually half empty so my kids can easily roam around if they want to (that is not what Duke is aiming for). I think that the idea of parking far away than finding their way through the Duke campus is enough to scare a lot of people off - the average Durham resident not affiliated with the University does not want to be wandering around the campus or through random parking lots.

chris13
06-19-2019, 09:22 AM
I hesitate to reply to this thread, lest i say too much. My problem is my son is special needs, uses a walker, and distances over 20 or 30 yards are very difficult for him. The handicapped parking (formerly free) places used to be in the Iron Dukes parking lot, at the bottom of the hill where you go up to cameron and WW. They had golf-cart thingies that would take you from that parking lot up to the loop. Sam had, at best, a 15yard walk to the gates...now, everything is different.

we had to park in the whitford (paid) and come all the way around the entire stadium to ride the elevator down to the field level (scoreboard end) cross the field at the end zone to access the handicap seating, because there's no ramp access to those seats on that side. probably 300 yards total... sheesh...


#2. the sun is blistering on that side. sorry to sound like a whimp, but that's one of the things that keep us from going...the kids hate it..

#3 spotty cell service and slow wifi...



i told y'all i shouldn't have replied.

I don't think you said too much. You identified how Duke made it significantly harder for you and other fans with special needs members of their group to attend games. In the age of HDTV and the Internet I think all stadiums need to think about how to make the game day experience as pleasant and friction free as possible.

Indoor66
06-19-2019, 09:48 AM
Years ago I heard a stat that every three years, UnCheat graduated more students (?) than Duke did in its history. I questioned that then and do today, but there is validity to the concept of the relative numbers. Another thing is that in the '30s, '40s, '50s, '60s, and into the '70s, locals in Durham tended to be loyal to Duke. This changed starting in the late '60s and forward as the demographic changed. A lot of this developed with the decline of textiles and tobacco and the rise of the Research Triangle Park. Another factor for change was the building of the Durham Freeway and then I-40 that accelerated the changes.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-19-2019, 10:44 AM
Durham demographics are changing in the direction of "unaffiliated" rather than Cheat fans specifically. Picking up the unaffiliated fans is a heck of a lot easier than the Cheat fans.

Regardless, the way to do it is what I mentioned a couple days back. Attendance is declining practically everywhere, not because people have lost interest in sports, but because they have better options. The key is to make game day a better option, in part by incorporating things that people would be doing otherwise and thus lessening the opportunity cost.

Let people drink beer outside.

Demographics may be changing in Durham, but the amount of NC fans still far outnumber the amount of Duke fans, not only in Durham, but within a 75 mile radius (approx drawing area). So the demographics are the answer as to the situation today and for the last 30 years or more.

Duke's problem is not dwindling attendance really, it's never been good in my life. It's that there a few flaws in Wade that have kept attendance down even with Cut's major uplift of the program.

And I'm all for the beer....

budwom
06-19-2019, 11:26 AM
All of this is true...but looking to Cameron as an analogy, by big time program standards, Duke's home BB attendance is low. But it doesn't matter, because the building is historic, and tiny, so the home atmosphere is amazing. They should have contemplated those concepts when they had a pot full of money to renovate Wade. Clearly they didn't. There are FB stadia in this country where 20-30 thousand fans create a great atmosphere...and there were some things they could've done to Wade to re-create some of that. Instead, they were all into aesthetics and the gothic rock and the obscenely big press box and so on. Meanwhile, the atmosphere for the players is no better than it was before.

Sometimes I wonder if the Duke Athletic Department is K, Cut, Pollard, and a bunch of idiots.

I agree about the poor atmosphere, but have to say that the major problem at WW is the quality of the team playing in it. You can't fix that with atmosphere....again (to repeat myself) when Duke plays well, we get fans, e.g. the excellent atmosphere at the Va Tech game last year...then came the turd egg...it is very difficult to manufacture excitement when you team is getting humbled...

CameronBornAndBred
06-19-2019, 11:34 AM
Sometimes I wonder if the Duke Athletic Department is ...

I can't count the number of times that I have said it astounds me with the overall intelligence on Duke campus that there is such an obscene lack of common sense.

OldPhiKap
06-19-2019, 11:45 AM
I agree about the poor atmosphere, but have to say that the major problem at WW is the quality of the team playing in it. You can't fix that with atmosphere...again (to repeat myself) when Duke plays well, we get fans, e.g. the excellent atmosphere at the Va Tech game last year...then came the turd egg...it is very difficult to manufacture excitement when you team is getting humbled...

Yup. The experience doesn't matter very much if the content is not worth watching.

I've seen games in Athens, Tuscaloosa, Clemson, Columbia and Tallahassee. There is nothing great about any of their stadiums (some are downright dingy). But they're full almost every game because there is a game worth watching and a team worth supporting by non-alums.

And none of that is throwing shade at Cut, who has done an incredible job resurrecting the program and building something of which I am very proud. But you gotta get the big teams in there, and you gotta beat them, if you want folks to get off the couch and deal with the inconveniences of actually going to a game.

budwom
06-19-2019, 12:11 PM
Yup. The experience doesn't matter very much if the content is not worth watching.

I've seen games in Athens, Tuscaloosa, Clemson, Columbia and Tallahassee. There is nothing great about any of their stadiums (some are downright dingy). But they're full almost every game because there is a game worth watching and a team worth supporting by non-alums.

And none of that is throwing shade at Cut, who has done an incredible job resurrecting the program and building something of which I am very proud. But you gotta get the big teams in there, and you gotta beat them, if you want folks to get off the couch and deal with the inconveniences of actually going to a game.

Yes, indeed, the inconvenience factor is yoooge in this day and age when you can quite easily sit at home and watch your mediocre team on HD TV without dealing with parking, security lines, and hapless play.
Even a number of large, successful schools are seeing a drop off in attendance due to these factors...

But when a team is playing well and there's excitement in the stadium, it really is a bunch of fun....

killerleft
06-19-2019, 12:57 PM
Well, as long as we're I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing, allow me.

If I buy two general admission season tickets that cost $70 apiece, they should cost me $140 and maybe up to $10 to ship them to me. So don't charge me $70 apiece and then $30 apiece as a shipping & handling fee. The two tix are in the same envelope, for Pete's sake. Have the guts to put it out front that these tickets really cost about $95 apiece.

The ticket cost is still low, and I appreciate that. But, why make me feel like I'm buying from some sleazy Friendly Freddie, who's winking as he makes me a great deal?

budwom
06-19-2019, 01:58 PM
Well, as long as we're I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing, allow me.

If I buy two general admission season tickets that cost $70 apiece, they should cost me $140 and maybe up to $10 to ship them to me. So don't charge me $70 apiece and then $30 apiece as a shipping & handling fee. The two tix are in the same envelope, for Pete's sake. Have the guts to put it out front that these tickets really cost about $95 apiece.

The ticket cost is still low, and I appreciate that. But, why make me feel like I'm buying from some sleazy Friendly Freddie, who's winking as he makes me a great deal?

Is it possible that Ron Popeil is working in the ticket office? The old Shipping and Handling scam, eh?

TruBlu
06-19-2019, 02:43 PM
Others have mentioned it before, and perhaps it is being done already to some extent, but:

1) free admission to First Responders and their families. We owe them.

2) free admission to military personnel, and arrange busses, at no charge) to transport them from local bases. We owe them.

3) cater to schools, civic clubs, etc.

This would be a long term way to build up a fan base . . . As long as the team is competitive, and it is an enjoyable* and pleasant* game day experience.

*see other posts (above) for details.

killerleft
06-19-2019, 03:06 PM
Is it possible that Ron Popeil is working in the ticket office? The old Shipping and Handling scam, eh?

They still make and sell the Popeil Pocket Fisherman! What a guy. $99 now.

CameronBornAndBred
06-19-2019, 03:13 PM
They still make and sell the Popeil Pocket Fisherman! What a guy. $99 now.

I have one! Still in the box!

Indoor66
06-19-2019, 03:16 PM
I have one! Still in the box!

Might be worth thousands....😂

budwom
06-19-2019, 03:17 PM
Others have mentioned it before, and perhaps it is being done already to some extent, but:

1) free admission to First Responders and their families. We owe them.

2) free admission to military personnel, and arrange busses, at no charge) to transport them from local bases. We owe them.

3) cater to schools, civic clubs, etc.

This would be a long term way to build up a fan base . . . As long as the team is competitive, and it is an enjoyable* and pleasant* game day experience.

*see other posts (above) for details.

What is painfully true is that on occasion, Duke gives away gobs of tickets (to employees to anyone who wants them) and people still don't come because they don't like the product on the field. Sitting and watching a boring game is not enticing.

Acymetric
06-19-2019, 03:34 PM
What is painfully true is that on occasion, Duke gives away gobs of tickets (to employees to anyone who wants them) and people still don't come because they don't like the product on the field. Sitting and watching a boring game is not enticing.

For the below, note that a win doesn't guaruntee that the game was enjoyable, and a loss doesn't necessarily mean it was painful. I've omitted any FCS games, some close losses also don't fall into either category.


A list of enjoyable/compelling games since 2012:

Army (2018)
Northwestern (2018)
unc (2018)
Northwestern (2017)
Baylor (2017)
Georgia Tech (2017)
unc (2016)
Georgia Tech (2015)
Miami (2015)
Kansas (2014)
Tulane (2014)
Virginia (2014)
Navy (2013)
NC State (2013)
Miami (2013)
Virginia (2012
unc (2012)

A list of painful to sit through games since 2012):

Virginia Tech (2018)
Virginia (2018)
Wake Forest (2018)
Wake Forest (2018)
Miami (2017)
FSU (2017)
Pittsburgh (2017)
Wake Forest (2016)
Virginia (2016)
Army (2016)
Northwestern (2015)
Boston College (2015)
Pittsburgh (2015)
Virginia Tech (2014)
unc (2014) **wow, I must have blocked this one out...completely forgot they hung 45 on us in our 9 win season.
Georgia Tech (2013)
Pittsburgh (2013)
Clemson (2012)

uh_no
06-19-2019, 03:42 PM
A list of painful to sit through games since 2012):

Virginia Tech (2018)
Virginia (2018)
Wake Forest (2018)
Wake Forest (2018)
Miami (2017)
FSU (2017)
Pittsburgh (2017)
Wake Forest (2016)
Virginia (2016)
Army (2016)
Northwestern (2015)
Boston College (2015)
Pittsburgh (2015)
Virginia Tech (2014)
unc (2014) **wow, I must have blocked this one out...completely forgot they hung 45 on us in our 9 win season.
Georgia Tech (2013)
Pittsburgh (2013)
Clemson (2012)

yeah that one was really bad

Acymetric
06-19-2019, 03:51 PM
yeah that one was really bad

I debated listing it 3 times.

That list was pretty off the cuff, so I easily could have missed some games and there is some quibbling to be had about others I'm sure, but my point is ultimately that you have about a 50% chance of having your spirits crushed by what you see on the field when you go to a Duke football game (at home).

CameronBornAndBred
06-19-2019, 03:51 PM
Might be worth thousands...😂

"Having one in the box" and knowing where it actually is...two different things. :rolleyes: If I find it, I'll take it to a tailgate, which will encourage at least one person to show up to a game just to see what's in my pocket.

Doing what I can to bring the crowds to Wallace Wade!

budwom
06-19-2019, 04:39 PM
I debated listing it 3 times.

That list was pretty off the cuff, so I easily could have missed some games and there is some quibbling to be had about others I'm sure, but my point is ultimately that you have about a 50% chance of having your spirits crushed by what you see on the field when you go to a Duke football game (at home).

At one point during The Dark Ages, I figured I was 20-80 in my last 100 games, with many of the wins coming against the likes of Ohio U. and other lesser luminaries. So at least we're down to 50%, which seems about right. Gotta fix that.

UrinalCake
06-19-2019, 08:13 PM
Interesting timing, as a bill has moved forward to allow alcohol sales at athletic events for NC system schools.

link (https://twitter.com/johnbellnc/status/1141430575523254272?s=21)

No word on whether the CHeats will serve cheese with their wine.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-19-2019, 08:43 PM
Others have mentioned it before, and perhaps it is being done already to some extent, but:

1) free admission to First Responders and their families. We owe them.

2) free admission to military personnel, and arrange busses, at no charge) to transport them from local bases. We owe them.

3) cater to schools, civic clubs, etc.

This would be a long term way to build up a fan base . . . As long as the team is competitive, and it is an enjoyable* and pleasant* game day experience.

*see other posts (above) for details.

Well intended spirit on your part, but the first two would not be a rounding error in the stadium attendance....and Duke already gives away tickets....the attendance is what it is. I'm all for your suggestions, I don't see any of them addressing the problem.

JetpackJesus
06-19-2019, 09:07 PM
Interesting timing, as a bill has moved forward to allow alcohol sales at athletic events for NC system schools.

link (https://twitter.com/johnbellnc/status/1141430575523254272?s=21)

No word on whether the CHeats will serve cheese with their wine.
I just assumed uNC could already sell alcohol at athletic events having given up on being a school more than 15 years ago.

sagegrouse
06-19-2019, 10:10 PM
Well intended spirit on your part, but the first two would not be a rounding error in the stadium attendance...and Duke already gives away tickets...the attendance is what it is. I'm all for your suggestions, I don't see any of them addressing the problem.

The problem as defined a lo-o-o-ng time ago: One of the football coaches explained to me: there are four college teams in one fairly small geographical area. Duke, therefore, has decided to have only four home games a year because of the problem in drawing crowds. Now that was when teams played only ten games, and the team was good -- we won the ACC three years in a row.

Attendance at Duke football games is a longstanding problem.

What has changed? The population of NC has grown from 4.5 million to more than ten million, but there is much more competition for leisure time, including non-stop football on TV and lots of other stuff. (Heck, you won't believe, but I know Duke fans who watch Duke games from the Card Gym parking lot.)

There are 175,000 or so Duke alums. While the largest Duke alumni club is the Triangle area, Duke alums are all over the country and the world. Carolina has 330,000 alums -- a bit over one-half in North Carolina. So, UNC alums in NC equals total Duke alums. But it's worse than this. Duke awarded 5,600 degrees in 2018 -- more than two-thirds of degrees went to graduate and professional students versus 1,800 for undergrads. With apologies to Throatybeard, Mullet Man and Viking Guy -- it's the Duke undergrads who become the Duke sports fans.

Kindly,
Sage

budwom
06-20-2019, 07:40 AM
^ of course now Duke automatically gets four ACC home games each season, and of the other four OOC on the schedule, we generally get three at home, though only two this year...part of the Cut formula (previously discussed) of scheduling at least three OOC games which we're likely to win....however this year we catch an ugly wrinkle with Bama and ND being two of those OOC games...tough tough schedule this year, especially with our youth at very key positions.

Tazman10
06-20-2019, 09:51 AM
To get people to come you need to put a winning team on the field year in and year out. Not 6-6 or 7-5 but 8-4 and 9-3 teams. Playing in crappy bowl games is not a selling point. You have to feel like when you go to see a game that they are going to win and not “well they might have a chance to win this one” when they are playing another 6-6 team.

Just win baby!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-20-2019, 10:08 AM
To get people to come you need to put a winning team on the field year in and year out. Not 6-6 or 7-5 but 8-4 and 9-3 teams. Playing in crappy bowl games is not a selling point. You have to feel like when you go to see a game that they are going to win and not “well they might have a chance to win this one” when they are playing another 6-6 team.

Just win baby!

Some of us remember days when seven wins seemed like a pipe dream. The product on the field is much, much better, but the attendance seems to be lagging far behind.
I'm not saying you're incorrect about your statement. But if going from 0/1 wins a season to 6/7/8 doesn't goose ticket sales, I don't know that one or two more wins is a safe bet to put butts in seats 6 times a year. Last win totals : 10,9,8,4,7,8. Actually, two more wins would mean 12, 11, 10, 6, 9, 10. So yeah, I think people would show up for a 12 win Duke team.

budwom
06-20-2019, 10:21 AM
To get people to come you need to put a winning team on the field year in and year out. Not 6-6 or 7-5 but 8-4 and 9-3 teams. Playing in crappy bowl games is not a selling point. You have to feel like when you go to see a game that they are going to win and not “well they might have a chance to win this one” when they are playing another 6-6 team.

Just win baby!

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating 7-5 teams...I'm pointing out Cutcliffe's current strategy, which is primarily to get to a bowl game each year. Very much want to see us get better than that minimum requirement, but the last few years we've
barely made a bowl...and we're not likely to make one this year.

My wishes: get better players, get a few better positional coaches, show we can win 8 games vs. relatively easy OOC opponents (we had achieved this some years ago, we've regressed), then and only then up our OOC schedule...we won't be packing WW until the team plays consistently better football...

SupaDave
06-20-2019, 10:24 AM
One thing I can promise you - is that when the NC A&T Aggies come to town - there will be plenty of folks in the house.

UNC announced a crowd of 44,000 for its home-opener against N.C. A&T Sept. 12 in 2017...

And they were upset that the number was "low"...

budwom
06-20-2019, 10:29 AM
One thing I can promise you - is that when the NC A&T Aggies come to town - there will be plenty of folks in the house.

UNC announced a crowd of 44,000 for its home-opener against N.C. A&T Sept. 12 in 2017...

And they were upset that the number was "low"...

Why do you say that (and I think the unc game you reference was in 2015)? They only draw about 16k/game at home...not sure I see a wave of Aggies invading WW...

killerleft
06-20-2019, 10:49 AM
Why do you say that (and I think the unc game you reference was in 2015)? They only draw about 16k/game at home...not sure I see a wave of Aggies invading WW...

If there was a way to verify the totals, I would bet a pie that the Aggies bring at least 10,000 people to the game. A&T travels well if there's a significant game close by. They already have a huge rivalry with NC Central.

budwom
06-20-2019, 10:59 AM
If there was a way to verify the totals, I would bet a pie that the Aggies bring at least 10,000 people to the game. A&T travels well if there's a significant game close by. They already have a huge rivalry with NC Central.

but they only draw 13k-16k at home? I guess I'm skeptical because years ago I heard people say how NCCU would bring a bunch of folks to WW, and generally that has been far from true.

killerleft
06-20-2019, 11:16 AM
but they only draw 13k-16k at home? I guess I'm skeptical because years ago I heard people say how NCCU would bring a bunch of folks to WW, and generally that has been far from true.

There was a pretty large visitor turnout for the first Bull City Classic. We'll find out in less than three months, at any rate. Unless we can give 'Bama a pretty good game, our opponent may smell blood in the water. They have reason to believe they have a pretty good football team, too.

SupaDave
06-20-2019, 12:13 PM
but they only draw 13k-16k at home? I guess I'm skeptical because years ago I heard people say how NCCU would bring a bunch of folks to WW, and generally that has been far from true.

Yeah - that was 2015 - time flies. And HBCU football doesn't share the same dynamic as SEC football where folks have it on their bucket list (same goes for the ACC).

As stated above, the Aggies travel well. Aggie home games can sometimes be a bit of a scheduling downer - for example, Howard was horrible the last 10 years or so and no one wanted to see them - but now that they have young Newton, things have changed. Same goes for a few of the other MEAC schools. Our homecoming game is typically our biggest crowd. Delaware State and Norfolk State don't necessarily put asses in the seats.

Last year's Celebration bowl sold over 30,000 tickets. We currently OWN the nationally ranked Elon football team (3 wins in a row - they finished the season ranked 17th in FCS, Aggies finished the season ranked 11th).

Last year when we BEAT ECU they were expecting 35k in attendance (got rained out and still sold out).

http://www.reflector.com/ECU/2018/08/29/ECU-expecting-crowd-of-35-000.html

For the record, the AGGIES have beat an FBS opponent to start the season for the last 3 seasons. We have legit been feasting on FBS schools - Kent State, ECU, and UNC Charlotte. We cherish these opportunities. If this was the Duke football of 10 years ago, I would already pencil the Aggies in for the win (I've witnessed many GA Tech beatdowns in Durham and Atl).

Last year ECU fans were talking like Duke fans are talking right now - counting an easy win (since then we've picked up their QB and several of their players).

https://247sports.com/college/east-carolina/Article/ECU-North-Carolina-AT-Prediction-121259235/

I will for SURE be in the house! Did I mention we tailgate like a mofo?

Acymetric
06-20-2019, 12:24 PM
For the record, the AGGIES have beat an FBS opponent to start the season for the last 3 seasons. We have legit been feasting on FBS schools - Kent State, ECU, and UNC Charlotte. We cherish these opportunities. If this was the Duke football of 10 years ago, I would already pencil the Aggies in for the win (I've witnessed many GA Tech beatdowns in Durham and Atl).

Last year ECU fans were talking like Duke fans are talking right now - counting an easy win (since then we've picked up their QB and several of their players).


Not to rain on your parade, but despite the fact that Duke isn't any kind of football power, the difference between Duke and the three schools on your list is night and day...you are talking about three really bad teams. Didn't UNC Charlotte (they prefer to just be called Charlotte now, by the way ;)) just start their football program like 11 days ago or something?

throatybeard
06-20-2019, 12:31 PM
There are 175,000 or so Duke alums. While the largest Duke alumni club is the Triangle area, Duke alums are all over the country and the world. Carolina has 330,000 alums -- a bit over one-half in North Carolina. So, UNC alums in NC equals total Duke alums. But it's worse than this. Duke awarded 5,600 degrees in 2018 -- more than two-thirds of degrees went to graduate and professional students versus 1,800 for undergrads. With apologies to Throatybeard, Mullet Man and Viking Guy -- it's the Duke undergrads who become the Duke sports fans.

Kindly,
Sage



I finished my PhD 15ya, so I'm just pleased and amazed anyone still remembers us!

I don't have a solution for Duke football attendance. Cutcliffe has mostly solved one problem, probably about as solved as it's going to get. The demographic problems are unsolvable. The disgusting climate of the American South in August and September is unsolvable.

In addition to that, young people aren't adopting football fandom anywhere near replacement level. HS programs all over the country are being shuttered due to nonparticipation. Well-off parents don't want their sons getting CTE, and particpation in the sport moves downmarket socioeconomically; in turn, a lot of socioeconomically depressed areas now lack the HS manpower as well now. Here in StL, Maplewood went from a state championship to discontinuing football in less than a decade. Soccer for homecoming now. This isn't isolated--it's going to pick up steam.

(I quit watching the NFL a few years ago, and I've quit watching college except for my teams and a handful of bowl games. I'm 42. My 9yo kid hates football, "fightball" he calls it. There are tens of millions more people in this boat).

The comically terrible concessions are low hanging fruit, and if the University cared about this they could have done something when we were 0-11, or last year, or anytime in the twentieth or twenty-first century. At the very least they could make sure there's adequate supply of cold clean water for people who have willingly sat in that solar radiation bowl during the first half or two-thirds of the season. But if this hasn't changed by 2019, I don't see why it will by 2023 or 2027.

I don't think this will ever change markedly, beyond what DC has accomplished as coach. Maybe his successor will be even more successful, idk. But even if Duke does figure it out, by the 2030s or 2040s, football itself will have dropped in popularity some more. It will still be played and still on TV some which way, but its footprint will shrink.

We are post-peak football. This decade is about as good as the football atmosphere will be at Duke, going forward.

killerleft
06-20-2019, 01:48 PM
I finished my PhD 15ya, so I'm just pleased and amazed anyone still remembers us!

I don't have a solution for Duke football attendance. Cutcliffe has mostly solved one problem, probably about as solved as it's going to get. The demographic problems are unsolvable. The disgusting climate of the American South in August and September is unsolvable.

In addition to that, young people aren't adopting football fandom anywhere near replacement level. HS programs all over the country are being shuttered due to nonparticipation. Well-off parents don't want their sons getting CTE, and particpation in the sport moves downmarket socioeconomically; in turn, a lot of socioeconomically depressed areas now lack the HS manpower as well now. Here in StL, Maplewood went from a state championship to discontinuing football in less than a decade. Soccer for homecoming now. This isn't isolated--it's going to pick up steam.

(I quit watching the NFL a few years ago, and I've quit watching college except for my teams and a handful of bowl games. I'm 42. My 9yo kid hates football, "fightball" he calls it. There are tens of millions more people in this boat).

The comically terrible concessions are low hanging fruit, and if the University cared about this they could have done something when we were 0-11, or last year, or anytime in the twentieth or twenty-first century. At the very least they could make sure there's adequate supply of cold clean water for people who have willingly sat in that solar radiation bowl during the first half or two-thirds of the season. But if this hasn't changed by 2019, I don't see why it will by 2023 or 2027.

I don't think this will ever change markedly, beyond what DC has accomplished as coach. Maybe his successor will be even more successful, idk. But even if Duke does figure it out, by the 2030s or 2040s, football itself will have dropped in popularity some more. It will still be played and still on TV some which way, but its footprint will shrink.

We are post-peak football. This decade is about as good as the football atmosphere will be at Duke, going forward.

Telling it like it is- and will be. I'd add that almost all live sports and entertainmnent events are going through attendance issues. Many people would rather watch- at home, on TV. Like Chance the Gardener. Me? I like being there. Bah-dah-boom.

devildeac
06-20-2019, 02:02 PM
Telling it like it is- and will be. I'd add that almost all live sports and entertainmnent events are going through attendance issues. Many people would rather watch- at home, on TV. Like Chance the Gardener. Me? I like being there. Bah-dah-boom.

Chance: "... I like to watch..."

SupaDave
06-20-2019, 02:10 PM
Not to rain on your parade, but despite the fact that Duke isn't any kind of football power, the difference between Duke and the three schools on your list is night and day...you are talking about three really bad teams. Didn't UNC Charlotte (they prefer to just be called Charlotte now, by the way ;)) just start their football program like 11 days ago or something?

And they were ALL picked to win. Ya know, that whole "more talent" and "more scholarships" thing...

And forgive me while I hold my chuckles, not too long ago ECU was THE best program in NC. How soon we forget.

MulletMan
06-20-2019, 03:04 PM
With apologies to Throatybeard, Mullet Man and Viking Guy -- it's the Duke undergrads who become the Duke sports fans.

Kindly,
Sage

You're darn tootin' "with apologies"! :D

But seriously, you've hit the nail on the head in a couple of spots. Let me just add though, that I think a lot of Duke Grad Skoolerz become pretty serious Duke sports fans beyond just MBB. However, they are transient NC residents. I was in NC for 13 years from the start of Grad Skool and beyond, but I would say that I'm the exception. Most travel in, get their degree and relocate shortly thereafter. That doesn't help game day attendance.

Truth be told, that's also likely an issue for Ugrad alums. Wheras uNC has many more local "alums" as you've pointed out.

Acymetric
06-20-2019, 03:09 PM
And they were ALL picked to win. Ya know, that whole "more talent" and "more scholarships" thing...

And forgive me while I hold my chuckles, not too long ago ECU was THE best program in NC. How soon we forget.

They clearly weren't that when y'all played them (with apologies to Scottie Montgomery).

Give me Duke +30.

Kent State's 2016 record: 3-9 (that Monmouth win was big time!)
Charlotte's 2017 record: 1-11
ECU's 2018 record: 3-9

Wake me up when you take out a P5 school...those three wins don't do much for me. (I do not dispute that A&T is a very good FCS school, but this ain't the FCS and those three teams were arguably worse than Duke under Ted Roof).

SupaDave
06-20-2019, 06:01 PM
They clearly weren't that when y'all played them (with apologies to Scottie Montgomery).

Give me Duke +30.

Kent State's 2016 record: 3-9 (that Monmouth win was big time!)
Charlotte's 2017 record: 1-11
ECU's 2018 record: 3-9

Wake me up when you take out a P5 school...those three wins don't do much for me. (I do not dispute that A&T is a very good FCS school, but this ain't the FCS and those three teams were arguably worse than Duke under Ted Roof).

Not even disputing that they weren't good teams - but WE were supposed to make them finish 4-8, 2-10, and 4-8. Didn't work out that way for them. Not to mention these games are scheduled years in advance.

And it's coming. Kids are starting to flock back to HBCU's. Howard pocketed $600k for sticking it to UNLV in 2017. NCCU has benefited greatly from playing Duke.

As far as the FCS goes - I'll put North Dakota State up against P5 team ranked lower than 11 - and carefully some in the top 10.

Hey - I'm just putting you on notice. Aggies will be in the house and just like UNC found out, it will be harder than you think. Oh - Duke's band better be practicing right NOW.

Acymetric
06-20-2019, 06:14 PM
Not even disputing that they weren't good teams - but WE were supposed to make them finish 4-8, 2-10, and 4-8. Didn't work out that way for them. Not to mention these games are scheduled years in advance.

And it's coming. Kids are starting to flock back to HBCU's. Howard pocketed $600k for sticking it to UNLV in 2017. NCCU has benefited greatly from playing Duke.

As far as the FCS goes - I'll put North Dakota State up against P5 team ranked lower than 11 - and carefully some in the top 10.

Hey - I'm just putting you on notice. Aggies will be in the house and just like UNC found out, it will be harder than you think. Oh - Duke's band better be practicing right NOW.

You can officially consider me not on notice ;). Don't be upset when we hang 50.

The Aggies will have the better band, no doubt.

Bob Green
06-20-2019, 06:29 PM
You can officially consider me not on notice ;). Don't be upset when we hang 50.

Yeah, I'm not on notice either. Duke will roll in this game.


Kids are starting to flock back to HBCU's.

What exactly does this statement have to do with a football game discussion?

SupaDave
06-20-2019, 07:35 PM
Yeah, I'm not on notice either. Duke will roll in this game.



What exactly does this statement have to do with a football game discussion?

Gotta admit. I do like this new found Duke football confidence.

And...

Talent, no longer impressed by big PWIs and the things that come with them, is popping up at HBCUs all over the SWAC and MEAC. (A&T's mens and women's track teams were ranked nationally all of this year. The Men's team finished in the top 10 against schools with 5 times our budget.)

Why be a 3 star on the bench when you can actually get to play?

Bob Green
06-20-2019, 08:05 PM
Talent, no longer impressed by big PWIs and the things that come with them, is popping up at HBCUs all over the SWAC and MEAC.

I'll disagree. Talented football players are not turning down SEC and ACC scholarship offers to play in the SWAC and MEAC. But it is your story so feel free to stick with it.

SupaDave
06-20-2019, 08:38 PM
I'll disagree. Talented football players are not turning down SEC and ACC scholarship offers to play in the SWAC and MEAC. But it is your story so feel free to stick with it.

I'll let you believe what you want. Bc you don't know doesn't make it not real. BUT I've got proof - and knowledge of the fact... So here - educate yourself.

http://www.thesportsfanjournal.com/sports/football/high-school-recruits-go-hbcu-route/

https://hbcugameday.com/2018/01/24/football-star-picks-grambling-over-alabama/

https://www.hbcusports.com/2018/07/19/the-best-high-school-football-player-in-the-country-hints-about-considering-an-hbcu-does-he-mean-it/

https://www.sunherald.com/sports/article97026097.html

https://hbcudigest.com/alabama-am-claims-division-i-football-recruits-transfer/ (THIS ONE)

https://herosports.com/news/alabama-am-lands-one-of-hbcu-top-recruits-fcs-football

http://www.thecharlottepost.com/news/2019/02/21/sports/nc-a-t-aggies-rank-second-in-national-hbcu-football-recruiting/

https://hbcudigest.com/alabama-am-claims-division-i-football-recruits-transfer/

https://herosports.com/news/ncaa-fcs-mens-football/howard-rb-commitment-jamonne-williams-stoked-about-playing-in-hbcu-environment

https://hbcugameday.com/2018/12/16/north-carolina-at-lands-ecu-quarterback-transfer/

That's just a taste...

HereBeforeCoachK
06-20-2019, 09:08 PM
Why do you say that (and I think the unc game you reference was in 2015)? They only draw about 16k/game at home...not sure I see a wave of Aggies invading WW...

Average home attendance is not necessrily a valid way to measure how they'll travel to a close by school in a P5 league.

duke2x
06-20-2019, 10:04 PM
No word on whether the CHeats will serve cheese with their wine.

I've tried to order that at the concession stands every game since 1995. This may be the year!

budwom
06-21-2019, 08:54 AM
Average home attendance is not necessrily a valid way to measure how they'll travel to a close by school in a P5 league.

I've seen zero evidence they travel with large crowds anywhere. Hence my skepticism.

mgtr
06-21-2019, 09:50 AM
How did Sheldon (Big Bang Theory) get rid of his cats? He paid people to take them! Seems obvious to me how to get more people there when free tickets won't do the job.

SupaDave
06-21-2019, 11:43 AM
I've seen zero evidence they travel with large crowds anywhere. Hence my skepticism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Celebration_Bowl

budwom
06-21-2019, 11:49 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Celebration_Bowl

Ha, announced crowd of 31k but barely 20k at the turnstile, in Atlanta...still unconvinced.

Acymetric
06-21-2019, 11:55 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Celebration_Bowl

That's kind of a special event. Duke's turnout for the Chick-fil-a bowl isn't indicative of how well we travel to away games during the season either.

SupaDave
06-21-2019, 02:03 PM
That's kind of a special event. Duke's turnout for the Chick-fil-a bowl isn't indicative of how well we travel to away games during the season either.

Does travel have to happen for this event? Yes. Seeing as how I was there, Aggies accounted for about 65 percent of those in the stadium (and that's for 3 out of A&T's 4 Celebration bowls victories as well).

We sold out ECU - the day after a rain out. Most folks simply stayed in town.

UNC - 44,000 in attendance!!! To see little old NC A&T... Did I mention the bands played TOGETHER? Would Duke even attempt such a thing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjStvU3cVOk

uh_no
06-21-2019, 02:15 PM
Does travel have to happen for this event? Yes. Seeing as how I was there, Aggies accounted for about 65 percent of those in the stadium (and that's for 3 out of A&T's 4 Celebration bowls victories as well).

We sold out ECU - the day after a rain out. Most folks simply stayed in town.

UNC - 44,000 in attendance!!! To see little old NC A&T... Did I mention the bands played TOGETHER? Would Duke even attempt such a thing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjStvU3cVOk

believe DUMB and the NCCU sound machine combined for a small part of one of the shows.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-21-2019, 04:14 PM
That's kind of a special event. Duke's turnout for the Chick-fil-a bowl isn't indicative of how well we travel to away games during the season either.

I was hoping a lot of that Bowl would become indicative.....wide open offense, lot of fans, big time stage, creative game plan......but alas......

budwom
06-21-2019, 04:22 PM
I was hoping a lot of that Bowl would become indicative....wide open offense, lot of fans, big time stage, creative game plan...but alas...

At least we got (arguably, but probably not very arguably) the best half of Duke football I've seen in 50 years.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-21-2019, 05:08 PM
At least we got (arguably, but probably not very arguably) the best half of Duke football I've seen in 50 years.

Even in defeat, it was one of the greatest moments of the modern era. Massive TV audience. Full stadium. NY Eve. Wide open exciting, and Duke was physically toe to toe with a team that beat Bama. Best half ever no doubt.

rocketeli
06-22-2019, 02:42 PM
In related news...how do I get people to buy these buggy whips I've stockpiled?

Apparently you can watch football games on this thing called TV now. You don't have to drive, park, pay a ton of money, deal with security, pay for overpriced bad food, broil in the sun or freeze in an Arctic wind, put up with obnoxious people/rooters for the other team near you, hurt your back on the seats, or wait through a crowd that's like getting off a jumbo jet after the game.

I kid, kind of. I personally feel that there is a special kind of enjoyment to actually being there, versus seeing what TV wants you to see, using only on of your senses instead of all of them. But many people are confused by football without multiple replays and exhaustive commentary and actually would prefer to watch it on TV even if all the above things weren't true.

Seriously, want to fill Wallace Wade?

Get rid of 15K seats--to enhance the experience, not to cheat on a sellout.
Get rid of anything that is obnoxious, such as strict "security" that's just obviously there to make you buy food and drink inside the stadium. (Number of terrorist attacks on college football stadia in 150 years, zero)
Make sure crowd flow is as expedited as possible, and that parking is plentiful, FREE and easy to get in and out of.
Make it an event--raffles, cams, half-time shows, T-shirt cannons, the usual stuff
See it as promotion, not money making and so price accordingly
Aggressively market to corporations, Duke hospital, conferences, camps etc, etc, as a centerpiece activity for conferences and so on.
and...
just win baby!

CameronBlue
06-22-2019, 04:32 PM
In related news...how do I get people to buy these buggy whips I've stockpiled?


Reappropriate them and toss in a Dominatrix as a loss leader. C'mon, B-school 101.

OldPhiKap
06-22-2019, 04:39 PM
Reappropriate them and toss in a Dominatrix as a loss leader. C'mon, B-school 101.

The Carl Franks years reminds me of the time I forgot my safe word.

budwom
06-22-2019, 04:59 PM
^ it built character for all of us. Horrible times, but I have to repeat myself by saying that no one (no one) was going to win with the level of support Duke was giving football then....Cut wouldn't have walked two blocks for the Duke job had the administration not sweetened the pot, via much much better program support (salaries, facilities, everything)...The Nanster was no fan of football whatsoever, so she didn't mind letting it decompose as it did...Dick Brodhead became a fan, and this was most helpful.

CameronBornAndBred
06-22-2019, 05:24 PM
In related news...how do I get people to buy these buggy whips I've stockpiled?

Apparently you can watch football games on this thing called TV now. You don't have to drive, park, pay a ton of money, deal with security, pay for overpriced bad food, broil in the sun or freeze in an Arctic wind, put up with obnoxious people/rooters for the other team near you, hurt your back on the seats, or wait through a crowd that's like getting off a jumbo jet after the game.

I kid, kind of. I personally feel that there is a special kind of enjoyment to actually being there, versus seeing what TV wants you to see, using only on of your senses instead of all of them. But many people are confused by football without multiple replays and exhaustive commentary and actually would prefer to watch it on TV even if all the above things weren't true.

Seriously, want to fill Wallace Wade?

Get rid of 15K seats--to enhance the experience, not to cheat on a sellout.
Get rid of anything that is obnoxious, such as strict "security" that's just obviously there to make you buy food and drink inside the stadium. (Number of terrorist attacks on college football stadia in 150 years, zero)
Make sure crowd flow is as expedited as possible, and that parking is plentiful, FREE and easy to get in and out of.
Make it an event--raffles, cams, half-time shows, T-shirt cannons, the usual stuff
See it as promotion, not money making and so price accordingly
Aggressively market to corporations, Duke hospital, conferences, camps etc, etc, as a centerpiece activity for conferences and so on.
and...
just win baby!
Some things Duke DOES do right. I'm highlighting a couple of them.
K-Ville turns into a fun playground for kid centric families, they do a nice job of making that a fun part of game day. And Blue Devil Alley is lots of fun to take part of. (If you want to be part of OUR amazing experience on BDA, please shoot Ozzie a PM, we'd truly love your company. I take pride in that we do literally everything we can to make the game day experience a memorable one.)
Duke made parking free last year, hopefully they will again this year. The chem lot is like literally at the most a 10 minute walk, and that's if you are slow paced. As far as getting easily in and out of, I think the traffic folks do as good of a job as can be expected for the patterns that make up campus.

4Gen
06-22-2019, 05:41 PM
You can officially consider me not on notice ;). Don't be upset when we hang 50.

The Aggies will have the better band, no doubt.

How about this for a pie bet. I'll take Duke -13.5 for the first half, or Duke -22.5 for the game. Your choice.

sagegrouse
06-22-2019, 05:48 PM
^ it built character for all of us. Horrible times, but I have to repeat myself by saying that no one (no one) was going to win with the level of support Duke was giving football then...Cut wouldn't have walked two blocks for the Duke job had the administration not sweetened the pot, via much much better program support (salaries, facilities, everything)...The Nanster was no fan of football whatsoever, so she didn't mind letting it decompose as it did...Dick Brodhead became a fan, and this was most helpful.

I thought the new "level of support" came from uber-successful football alums from the 1950's, 60's and 70's. Brodhead just had to say, "Yes."

Nan may have said yes as well, since she almost had a heart attack when, shortly after her arrival in 1993, Coach K had a major flirtation with the NBA. "Worst thing I can imagine," she said, "and I can't even think of a second-worst." (K also went on a "shakedown cruise" when Brodhead arrived in 2004.)

devildeac
06-22-2019, 07:19 PM
I thought the new "level of support" came from uber-successful football alums from the 1950's, 60's and 70's. Brodhead just had to say, "Yes."

Nan may have said yes as well, since she almost had a heart attack when, shortly after her arrival in 1993, Coach K had a major flirtation with the NBA. "Worst thing I can imagine," she said, "and I can't even think of a second-worst." (K also went on a "shakedown cruise" when Brodhead arrived in 2004.)

But, it appears now that the Price is right...

(I'll close the door :o.)

Reilly
06-22-2019, 07:43 PM
The Carl Franks years reminds me of the time I forgot my safe word.

Mine was "shotgun handoff" during the Roof years so they ended up being rather uneventful.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-22-2019, 09:04 PM
Seriously, want to fill Wallace Wade?

Get rid of 15K seats--to enhance the experience, not to cheat on a sellout.
Get rid of anything that is obnoxious, such as strict "security" that's just obviously there to make you buy food and drink inside the stadium. (Number of terrorist attacks on college football stadia in 150 years, zero)
Make sure crowd flow is as expedited as possible, and that parking is plentiful, FREE and easy to get in and out of.
Make it an event--raffles, cams, half-time shows, T-shirt cannons, the usual stuff
See it as promotion, not money making and so price accordingly
Aggressively market to corporations, Duke hospital, conferences, camps etc, etc, as a centerpiece activity for conferences and so on.
and...
just win baby!

I love idea 1 - reduce the seating, get people closer together, and put up something so that you can't watch the game from the concourse outside the stadium seating. Duke's a small school with a small local alum base. Play to your strengths.....small intimate stadia...

Acymetric
06-22-2019, 09:22 PM
put up something so that you can't watch the game from the concourse outside the stadium seating.

They've already mostly already done this...not a fan.


How about this for a pie bet. I'll take Duke -13.5 for the first half, or Duke -22.5 for the game. Your choice.

Is that offer for me or for SupaDave? Are you saying you'll take Duke to cover those lines? If so, that's what I'm saying, too.

DU82
06-22-2019, 10:02 PM
Mine was "shotgun handoff" during the Roof years so they ended up being rather uneventful.

The Mike McGee cheer: Up the middle, up the middle, up the middle, punt.

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-22-2019, 10:30 PM
The Mike McGee cheer: Up the middle, up the middle, up the middle, punt.

Actually, that style of play calling was Bill Murray's game plan.

sagegrouse
06-22-2019, 11:42 PM
Actually, that style of play calling was Bill Murray's game plan.

You missed the Murray years when we were 8-3, 7-3, 8-2 -- but the offense did seem a bit predictable -- although we had a gorgeous flea flicker that usually seemed to work.

budwom
06-23-2019, 07:18 AM
I thought the new "level of support" came from uber-successful football alums from the 1950's, 60's and 70's. Brodhead just had to say, "Yes."

Nan may have said yes as well, since she almost had a heart attack when, shortly after her arrival in 1993, Coach K had a major flirtation with the NBA. "Worst thing I can imagine," she said, "and I can't even think of a second-worst." (K also went on a "shakedown cruise" when Brodhead arrived in 2004.)

A couple of things: first, those alums had been calling for improvement for years, no one was listening, especially Nan. And you may remember that before Nan kowtowed to K, she tried to reign him in...it did not go well. She learned her lesson.

Reilly
06-23-2019, 07:58 AM
... before Nan kowtowed to K, she tried to reign him in...it did not go well ...

Details?

HereBeforeCoachK
06-23-2019, 08:44 AM
The Mike McGee cheer: Up the middle, up the middle, up the middle, punt.

...except for a few years of RUN DUNN RUN....

chrishoke
06-23-2019, 09:47 AM
...except for a few years of RUN DUNN RUN...

M.D. was the doctor of offense.

budwom
06-23-2019, 10:13 AM
Details?

It happened so long ago I don't recall the details (I bet someone here does)...but very early in her tenure, when she did not fully understand K's status in the Duke community (hint, higher than yours, Nan) they had a run in
and she quickly realized K was not someone she wanted to take on. And if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, which she did. Maybe Jim Sumner recalls the details, but I know it happened.

I do know that a trustee personally told me, when I asked about why Duke finally decided to support football (hire Cut, increase the money flow, etc) that Nan had zero interest in football, so the status quo was fine with her, but Brodhead quickly became a fan and this was very helpful.

OldPhiKap
06-23-2019, 11:30 AM
My recollection was that Nan tried to make some changes that would impact the team, and then K flirted with leaving to go coach with the NBA. Which put things in perspective.

Not sure there was any relation between events, but that was the buzz at the time as best I remember.

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-23-2019, 05:51 PM
You missed the Murray years when we were 8-3, 7-3, 8-2 -- but the offense did seem a bit predictable -- although we had a gorgeous flea flicker that usually seemed to work.

I was there in the stadium then; I just wasn't enrolled yet. I remember people during my undergraduate years complaining of run up the middle for 2 downs and then punt on the third. No appreciation for punting as a tool for improving field position!

sagegrouse
06-23-2019, 06:08 PM
I was there in the stadium then; I just wasn't enrolled yet. I remember people during my undergraduate years complaining of run up the middle for 2 downs and then punt on the third. No appreciation for punting as a tool for improving field position!

Yep. We didn't know when we were well off.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-23-2019, 08:27 PM
M.D. was the doctor of offense.

HAH, yes, he was....I had forgotten that moniker. Thanks for the memory.

alteran
06-24-2019, 07:01 AM
Unless they markedly improve their stadium food, I don't want any of it. Pathetic they can't do better. Even the food for the high rollers in The Tower is lame. Though they do get beer.

Yeah, the new food situation is just awful. Nothing there is any good.

There used to be a few good mom and pop stands a few years back, these were eliminated when they redid concessions. Thanks Duke.

I also agree that seats should get way cheaper.

luvdahops
06-24-2019, 10:12 AM
It happened so long ago I don't recall the details (I bet someone here does)...but very early in her tenure, when she did not fully understand K's status in the Duke community (hint, higher than yours, Nan) they had a run in
and she quickly realized K was not someone she wanted to take on. And if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, which she did. Maybe Jim Sumner recalls the details, but I know it happened.

I do know that a trustee personally told me, when I asked about why Duke finally decided to support football (hire Cut, increase the money flow, etc) that Nan had zero interest in football, so the status quo was fine with her, but Brodhead quickly became a fan and this was very helpful.

I went to a home game versus Georgia Tech in 1999, an experience that included a pregame reception with Nan and seats in the President's box. She was quite visibly out of her element throughout, especially for someone who is generally very confident and impressive.

budwom
06-24-2019, 11:48 AM
I went to a home game versus Georgia Tech in 1999, an experience that included a pregame reception with Nan and seats in the President's box. She was quite visibly out of her element throughout, especially for someone who is generally very confident and impressive.

yes, I was in The Box with her once, it was definitely something she had to do rather than wanted to do. Broadhead actually got into it...

HereBeforeCoachK
06-24-2019, 07:34 PM
Yeah, the new food situation is just awful. Nothing there is any good.

There used to be a few good mom and pop stands a few years back, these were eliminated when they redid concessions. Thanks Duke.

I also agree that seats should get way cheaper.

I file this under the heading of "the Duke Athletic Department is K, Cut, Pollard and a bunch of dopes" - it is amazing how they screw up that which is so easy to correct. One thing I've noticed is that the school is as bureaucratic as a 60 thousand student State University. I've witnessed stunning inefficiencies even in just anscillary services.

weezie
06-25-2019, 10:01 AM
yes, I was in The Box with her once, it was definitely something she had to do rather than wanted to do...

Yet another reason why I should be running things.

OldPhiKap
06-25-2019, 10:39 AM
I file this under the heading of "the Duke Athletic Department is K, Cut, Pollard and a bunch of dopes" - it is amazing how they screw up that which is so easy to correct. One thing I've noticed is that the school is as bureaucratic as a 60 thousand student State University. I've witnessed stunning inefficiencies even in just anscillary services.

While I wish some things were changed along the lines discussed in this thread for football, and I have some concerns about the women's basketball program at present, I think Kevin White has done an excellent job overall. And I think we have some excellent coaches beyond the three mentioned.

The improvements to Wally Wade, in total, have been a giant leap forward. Football attendance has been, is, and will continue to be a challenge for the reasons many have stated (Throatybeard had an excellent analysis of the main challenges IMO).


Yet another reason why I should be running things.

If you put that into the form of a motion, I'll second it.

Indoor66
06-25-2019, 10:57 AM
When I rule the world, this will change!

chrishoke
06-25-2019, 11:04 AM
Here's a question that I don't think has been asked - if the bill pending in the legislature passes and UNC and NCS start selling beer at football and basketball games, will that pressure Duke into doing the same. I sure hope so.

CameronBornAndBred
06-25-2019, 11:35 AM
Here's a question that I don't think has been asked - if the bill pending in the legislature passes and UNC and NCS start selling beer at football and basketball games, will that pressure Duke into doing the same. I sure hope so.

I'm not convinced beer will increase attendance. I am pretty sure that just because the state schools start doing it, Duke won't decide they need to, also. It's not like we are competing to get baby blue and Wuffie fans in our seats.

"Well, I'm a State fan, but Duke has beer now, so I'm going to go bake in their sun instead of ours today."
That's not a statement you will ever hear.

BLPOG
06-25-2019, 11:49 AM
I'm not convinced beer will increase attendance. I am pretty sure that just because the state schools start doing it, Duke won't decide they need to, also. It's not like we are competing to get baby blue and Wuffie fans in our seats.

"Well, I'm a State fan, but Duke has beer now, so I'm going to go bake in their sun instead of ours today."
That's not a statement you will ever hear.

But you might convince folks to bake in the WW sun rather than the Ponysaurus sun.

Acymetric
06-25-2019, 12:31 PM
I'm not convinced beer will increase attendance. I am pretty sure that just because the state schools start doing it, Duke won't decide they need to, also. It's not like we are competing to get baby blue and Wuffie fans in our seats.

"Well, I'm a State fan, but Duke has beer now, so I'm going to go bake in their sun instead of ours today."
That's not a statement you will ever hear.

I'm not necessarily convinced it would increase attendance either, but it might. Certainly wouldn't hurt attendance. That said, we aren't competing for State fans and unc fans, we're competing with unafilliated fans and even casual Duke fans that might opt to skip the Duke game to go to the State game with some of their buddies. I can imagine serving beer might help entice some of them over this way, or keep them from being swayed to go see the Pack.

CrazyNotCrazie
06-25-2019, 12:43 PM
I'm not necessarily convinced it would increase attendance either, but it might. Certainly wouldn't hurt attendance. That said, we aren't competing for State fans and unc fans, we're competing with unafilliated fans and even casual Duke fans that might opt to skip the Duke game to go to the State game with some of their buddies. I can imagine serving beer might help entice some of them over this way, or keep them from being swayed to go see the Pack.

True, but to play devil's advocate, if I am a parent looking to bring a few kids or my scout troop or youth football team, an alcohol free environment is enticing to me. I assume the vast majority of people at DBR are responsible drinkers but all it takes are a few drunks to make it an unfriendly environment. Granted, there is nothing stopping people from getting drunk outside the stadium. I just don't get the obsession here with selling beer - that is really low on the list to me. I think having better food options and better service is a lot more important than beer. Find a way to motivate the food service people to hustle a little bit.

budwom
06-25-2019, 12:49 PM
^ I would agree that beer, in and of itself, will not move the needle much. Winning begets enthusiasm and better TV slots which beget bigger crowds (until we lay an egg). In today's environment, there is absolutely no substitute for winning.
It's way too easy to stay home for a mediocre noon game, just watch on TV.

AustinDevil
06-25-2019, 01:52 PM
True, but to play devil's advocate, if I am a parent looking to bring a few kids or my scout troop or youth football team, an alcohol free environment is enticing to me. I assume the vast majority of people at DBR are responsible drinkers but all it takes are a few drunks to make it an unfriendly environment. Granted, there is nothing stopping people from getting drunk outside the stadium. I just don't get the obsession here with selling beer - that is really low on the list to me. I think having better food options and better service is a lot more important than beer. Find a way to motivate the food service people to hustle a little bit.

Not to pick on you, but I hate the very American, very binary view that lumps in any alcohol with an assumption of a drunk, unfriendly, kid-unsafe environment. Plenty of kids manage to attend pro sporting events in locales that are a lot rougher than West Campus and somehow survive. Plenty of kids attend Tulane football games despite the Louisiana craft beers, and their parents are somehow able to tell the difference between that Uptown stadium and the worst block of Bourbon Street.

CrazyNotCrazie
06-25-2019, 02:49 PM
Not to pick on you, but I hate the very American, very binary view that lumps in any alcohol with an assumption of a drunk, unfriendly, kid-unsafe environment. Plenty of kids manage to attend pro sporting events in locales that are a lot rougher than West Campus and somehow survive. Plenty of kids attend Tulane football games despite the Louisiana craft beers, and their parents are somehow able to tell the difference between that Uptown stadium and the worst block of Bourbon Street.

Fair points - I was debating whether to include the issue of drunk people in my comment because it was not my primary point, but I admittedly made it sound like it was. My bottom line is that a significant portion of the posts here have mentioned beer as a major factor that could drive attendance. I just don't see it. I don't think having beer at a game will be the deciding factor that makes many people choose to attend a game. And I'm guessing that the margins on beer sales are not enough to make an impact on the bottom line.

I am trying to think of a school that in the last 10-20 years has developed a "football culture." This is an attitude where in the spring, alumni who don't live too close to Durham say "I think I want to head back to Durham and meet up with some friends for a football game." People definitely do this for basketball, and those tickets are much harder to come by. This is what makes it work at other schools.

AustinDevil
06-25-2019, 03:48 PM
Fair points - I was debating whether to include the issue of drunk people in my comment because it was not my primary point, but I admittedly made it sound like it was. My bottom line is that a significant portion of the posts here have mentioned beer as a major factor that could drive attendance. I just don't see it. I don't think having beer at a game will be the deciding factor that makes many people choose to attend a game. And I'm guessing that the margins on beer sales are not enough to make an impact on the bottom line.

I am trying to think of a school that in the last 10-20 years has developed a "football culture." This is an attitude where in the spring, alumni who don't live too close to Durham say "I think I want to head back to Durham and meet up with some friends for a football game." People definitely do this for basketball, and those tickets are much harder to come by. This is what makes it work at other schools.

That second paragraph encapsulates a good question, and Duke could certainly do a lot more to enhance and maintain a football culture. I know we'll have ACC/ESPN-mandated weeknight games again, for example, and I know Duke will again do a terrible job of "accommodating" them.

The schools that I've seen develop more of an atmosphere like that are those that have returned to campus stadiums after being off-campus (Baylor, Tulane, SMU, and Houston are my examples, because that's where I live). Rebuilding Wade was great, but there's a ton of room for marketing (I was going to say "better marketing," but any marketing would be an improvement).

On beer, yeah, good beer will cause some to attend who wouldn't otherwise. And that's enough for me. (I always advocate for beer in this discussion but I don't actually drink a lot of beer.)

Bob Green
06-25-2019, 04:19 PM
A lot of good discussion in this thread but I am in the camp of those who say nothing will increase attendance except winning, winning and winning some more. As others have stated, winning big games is key to the formula. 4-0 Duke losing badly to a VT team coming off a loss to ODU is a prime example of what not to do.

One HUGE thing folks who do attend games can do to improve attendance perceptions is show up on time. The stadium is noticeably fuller at the end of the 1st quarter than it is at kick off because there is a constant flow of folks showing up late. How hard is it to show up on time? A second thing folks can do is actually sit in their seats and watch the game. It seems there are as many folks wandering around the concourse as there are sitting in their seats.

An issue with the casual fan who is seeking a great "game day experience" is they are not all that interested in watching the football game. For fanatics such as myself, the "experience" is watching the game on the field.

As for beer, I am not opposed to beer being sold but I do not believe it will make a dent in the attendance problem.

Acymetric
06-25-2019, 04:26 PM
One HUGE thing folks who do attend games can do to improve attendance perceptions is show up on time. The stadium is noticeably fuller at the end of the 1st quarter than it is at kick off because there is a constant flow of folks showing up late. How hard is it to show up on time? A second thing folks can do is actually sit in their seats and watch the game. It seems there are as many folks wandering around the concourse as there are sitting in their seats.

This is brought up often, but are either of these things all that unusual for sporting events? I feel like this is par for the course (especially the concourse wandering during live action).

Bob Green
06-25-2019, 04:35 PM
This is brought up often, but are either of these things all that unusual for sporting events? I feel like this is par for the course (especially the concourse wandering during live action).

Perhaps it isn't all that unusual but when I watch SEC football games on TV, I do not see empty seats at kick off. Wallace Wade Stadium would be a little less empty if folks would show up on time and sit in their seats.

CameronBornAndBred
06-25-2019, 04:55 PM
Perhaps it isn't all that unusual but when I watch SEC football games on TV, I do not see empty seats at kick off. Wallace Wade Stadium would be a little less empty if folks would show up on time and sit in their seats.

They show up on time...they are just stuck 35 deep in security lines. :mad:

Acymetric
06-25-2019, 05:05 PM
They show up on time...they are just stuck 35 deep in security lines. :mad:

In fairness, those lines don't get long until like 5 minutes before kickoff. When I get there anywhere from 20-60 minutes before kickoff I basically walk right in. If 10,000 of our 20,000 attendees show up at 11:50 for a 12:00 kick, yeah there are gonna be lines. I'm a lot more sympathetic to the "people showing up late" complaint than the "people in the concourse" complaint.

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-25-2019, 08:23 PM
This is brought up often, but are either of these things all that unusual for sporting events? I feel like this is par for the course (especially the concourse wandering during live action).
When I attended games at Texas (Austin), there were no people wondering around during the game, not even at halftime. There was no stream of people going up and down the aisles. It's just not done. It's a cultural thing.

OldPhiKap
06-25-2019, 08:36 PM
When I attended games at Texas (Austin), there were no people wondering around during the game, not even at halftime. There was no stream of people going up and down the aisles. It's just not done. It's a cultural thing.

Same is true at Clemson. And FSU. And ND. And Alabama. And UGA. And USCar. . . .

And to Bob’s point — the way you stop that is to make the product on the field much-watch. The only way to get butts in the seats is to make the eyes want to see what is happening on the field.

JetpackJesus
06-25-2019, 08:40 PM
When I attended games at Texas (Austin), there were no people wondering around during the game, not even at halftime. There was no stream of people going up and down the aisles. It's just not done. It's a cultural thing.

I wonder if it is a factor at WW that you can still see the game from the "concourse," and your view probably is not appreciably worse than wherever your seat is? In some instances, it might even be better.

Acymetric
06-25-2019, 08:47 PM
I wonder if it is a factor at WW that you can still see the game from the "concourse," and your view probably is not appreciably worse than wherever your seat is? In some instances, it might even be better.

That's really only kind of true from the visitors side (you can only see the field if you're right on the wall, not really just walking around) and slightly less true from the closed end of the shoe (the wall is higher than it used to be, and also has a barred railing on top of it). The home side you cannot see the game from the concourse (the wall is much higher than it used to be, probably ~6 ft high) unless you are again right on the wall and you are tallish or stand on your tippy toes the whole time.


Same is true at Clemson. And FSU. And ND. And Alabama. And UGA. And USCar. . . .

And to Bob’s point — the way you stop that is to make the product on the field much-watch. The only way to get butts in the seats is to make the eyes want to see what is happening on the field.

Err...so its true at the absolute top tier football schools with the most die hard fans? Objection! Relevance?

OldPhiKap
06-25-2019, 08:55 PM
Err...so its true at the absolute top tier football schools with the most die hard fans? Objection! Relevance?

I’m not talking about getting folks into the stadium, I’m talking about getting those folks who are there to sit in their seats and watch the game. And the way to do that is to have much-watch football on the field.

Goes to motive and opportunity, your Honor. My friend’s objection goes to weight, not admissibility. (Okay, That last line may not apply. Just my go-to knee-jerk response, along with “it’s a question of fact for the jury to determine.”)

Acymetric
06-25-2019, 08:59 PM
I’m not talking about getting folks into the stadium, I’m talking about getting those folks who are there to sit in their seats and watch the game. And the way to do that is to have much-watch football on the field.

Goes to motive and opportunity, your Honor. My friend’s objection goes to weight, not admissibility. (Okay, That last line may not apply. Just my go-to knee-jerk response, along with “it’s a question of fact for the jury to determine.”)

I maintain that attendance behavior of other football schools is not relevant in this case, your honor! The prejudicial nature vastly​ outweighs any probative value!

...I just finished binge watching The Practice, so I'm feeling very lawyerly ;)

Reilly
06-25-2019, 09:03 PM
... I am trying to think of a school that in the last 10-20 years has developed a "football culture." ...

I think some have -- going from maybe 0 to 30 or 45 mph ... maybe JMU, ODU, Charlotte, Liberty ... schools with no team at all or no real history to speak of ... and then ramping up to at least a little bit of something to help with school pride and cohesion ... I'm still amazed at the number of entrants to FBS football in the last 20 years given the entry costs and supposed dying nature of the sport ...

We have a FB history that few can match ... yet there's a large and growing disconnect between that FB history and our sophisticated, cosmopolitan, international, academically-oriented student body and young alums ... just sort of the way of the world and the cultural tide ...

OldPhiKap
06-25-2019, 09:05 PM
I maintain that attendance behavior of other football schools is not relevant in this case, your honor! The prejudicial nature vastly​ outweighs any probative value!

...I just finished binge watching The Practice, so I'm feeling very lawyerly ;)


https://youtu.be/xwdba9C2G14

The defense rests.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-26-2019, 07:03 AM
When I attended games at Texas (Austin), there were no people wondering around during the game, not even at halftime. There was no stream of people going up and down the aisles. It's just not done. It's a cultural thing.

It's a long term cultural thing for sure, but I would add to your theory a short term psychological thing.....a full stadium will always be more intense than a half empty stadium. If you're surrounded by people in a full stadium, you sub consciously value your seat, your spot. What brings people to a stadium is indeed the product on the field, but it's not that alone. It's that plus the atmosphere at the stadium. If you feel like you've had an exciting tense experience, even in defeat, you'll come back. Duke basketball, even when they weren't that good, normally had Duke Indoor/Cameron Indoor full enough often enough for there to be the culture of an exciting and hostile atmosphere.

And this has to do more with how full a stadium is than how many people there are at the stadium. Perhaps the footprint of the ole Wally Wade precluded any realistic down sizing and other measures to create intimacy and intensity and a supply demand situation on the seats, short of building a whole new facility. 25,000 people in a 30 thousand seat stadium would be entirely different vibe than 25 thousand in Wade now. A different vibe helps everything...on field success, recruiting, etc.

AustinDevil
06-26-2019, 10:44 AM
I think some have -- going from maybe 0 to 30 or 45 mph ... maybe JMU, ODU, Charlotte, Liberty ... schools with no team at all or no real history to speak of ... and then ramping up to at least a little bit of something to help with school pride and cohesion ... I'm still amazed at the number of entrants to FBS football in the last 20 years given the entry costs and supposed dying nature of the sport ...

We have a FB history that few can match ... yet there's a large and growing disconnect between that FB history and our sophisticated, cosmopolitan, international, academically-oriented student body and young alums ... just sort of the way of the world and the cultural tide ...

Objection on JMU. Lengthy history of fantastic support beyond almost any other FCS program. But the others hold.

Pghdukie
06-26-2019, 06:42 PM
Free Pie !

BLPOG
06-26-2019, 07:56 PM
Free Pie !

...and punch (https://youtu.be/8L3UzLTM2AY).

Alternatively, Free Hat (http://southpark.cc.com/clips/153543/different-hat)?

OldPhiKap
06-26-2019, 07:57 PM
Play Stonehenge!

arnie
06-27-2019, 07:39 PM
Wiseman just reported Duke will not change it’s policies regarding alcohol at Wally Wade. Can’t link right now.

Indoor66
06-27-2019, 08:05 PM
Wiseman just reported Duke will not change it’s policies regarding alcohol at Wally Wade. Can’t link right now.

I think that is a good decision.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-27-2019, 08:53 PM
I think that is a good decision.

Not disagreeing with you necessarily (I haven't thought much about it yet truth be told) - but I am wondering why you like this decision.

devildeac
06-27-2019, 11:16 PM
Wiseman just reported Duke will not change it’s policies regarding alcohol at Wally Wade. Can’t link right now.

We always have a nice selection for tasting/sharing/trading at our tent on Devil's Alley...

OldPhiKap
06-27-2019, 11:24 PM
We always have a nice selection for tasting/sharing/trading at our tent on Devil's Alley...

If only you could still in/out at half.

devildeac
06-27-2019, 11:30 PM
If only you could still in/out at half.

Interesting, Dave Doeren has said he hates that policy as he believes it decreases the home team crowd/advantage for the Pack in the third quarter for all their home games. I personally hate Duke's current policy. And no, it is NOT so I can have a beer at halftime (and haven't for more than a decade most likely :p) but so I can belt down another pint of cold water and/or soft drink to re-hydrate after baking for the previous 90 minutes in the WW oven and have one of TNTDevil's fabulous desserts that he usually serves during intermission.

budwom
06-28-2019, 06:26 AM
Interesting, Dave Doeren has said he hates that policy as he believes it decreases the home team crowd/advantage for the Pack in the third quarter for all their home games. I personally hate Duke's current policy. And no, it is NOT so I can have a beer at halftime (and haven't for more than a decade most likely :p) but so I can belt down another pint of cold water and/or soft drink to re-hydrate after baking for the previous 90 minutes in the WW oven and have one of TNTDevil's fabulous desserts that he usually serves during intermission.

My one foray to the inept concession stand each game consists of buying 2-3 bottled waters (depending upon conditions) before the game, and stashing them like a squirrel...the good news this year is that there are no September day games (A&T at 6pm), so broilage should be reduced...

Indoor66
06-28-2019, 07:46 AM
Not disagreeing with you necessarily (I haven't thought much about it yet truth be told) - but I am wondering why you like this decision.

One or two drunks can chase away a lot of paying customers. One bad experience and they don't come back. One can cost you three or four. Poor risk.

left_hook_lacey
06-28-2019, 08:04 AM
Reasonably priced craft beer stands.

I believe I heard something on the radio yesterday saying the state passed a bill to allow beer and wine sales at college athletic events. I think now it will be up to the individual University's. Or is it a local government matter?

devildeac
06-28-2019, 09:08 AM
My one foray to the inept concession stand each game consists of buying 2-3 bottled waters (depending upon conditions) before the game, and stashing them like a squirrel...the good news this year is that there are no September day games (A&T at 6pm), so broilage should be reduced...

I have indeed done that before. A bottle can be, umm, smuggled into the confines in a pocket but two or three can be a difficult task during the peak baking months.

devildeac
06-28-2019, 09:11 AM
I believe I heard something on the radio yesterday saying the state passed a bill to allow beer and wine sales at college athletic events. I think now it will be up to the individual University's. Or is it a local government matter?

I think someone here reported yesterday that Duke will not be doing this and that poster may have provided a Steve Wiseman link. I'll confirm that fact as his article appeared in this morning's print edition of the Raleigh N&O.

devildeac
06-28-2019, 09:13 AM
Wiseman just reported Duke will not change it’s policies regarding alcohol at Wally Wade. Can’t link right now.


I believe I heard something on the radio yesterday saying the state passed a bill to allow beer and wine sales at college athletic events. I think now it will be up to the individual University's. Or is it a local government matter?

Here ya go:

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article232035947.html

"While its public school brethren can now consider selling beer and wine to the public at its athletic events, Duke won’t be joining them."

Lunchab1es
06-28-2019, 09:52 AM
One or two drunks can chase away a lot of paying customers. One bad experience and they don't come back. One can cost you three or four. Poor risk.

Professional sporting venues seem to have determined that the benefits outweigh the risks. Beer service hasn't been a hurdle to our own fans at bowl games either.

BLPOG
06-28-2019, 10:02 AM
Professional sporting venues seem to have determined that the benefits outweigh the risks. Beer service hasn't been a hurdle to our own fans at bowl games either.

And beyond that, people are perfectly capable of behaving badly, for alcohol-related reasons of otherwise, irrespective of the policy in the stadium. It baffles me that people assume that allowing beer sales - a widely-accepted practice at sports venues - would suddenly cause problems of drunkenness.

tteettimes
06-28-2019, 10:36 AM
Well.......in that case.....
I really do have no reason to go

chrishoke
06-28-2019, 10:50 AM
One or two drunks can chase away a lot of paying customers. One bad experience and they don't come back. One can cost you three or four. Poor risk.

Have you ever been to a Durham Bulls game? Very family and kid friendly and lots of great beer selection. Beer is so expensive at sporting events it would be hard, not impossible to get drunk on stadium beer. And I'm sure the lines to purchase at WW would be a limiting factor.

arnie
06-28-2019, 12:04 PM
Have you ever been to a Durham Bulls game? Very family and kid friendly and lots of great beer selection. Beer is so expensive at sporting events it would be hard, not impossible to get drunk on stadium beer. And I'm sure the lines to purchase at WW would be a limiting factor.

I think you got it. Duke analyzed the economics of beer sales and determined their concessionaire setup would only allow 10 plastic cups sold per hour. Not enough revenue to justify and they might run out of beer anyway before end of 1st quarter.

budwom
06-28-2019, 01:45 PM
I think you got it. Duke analyzed the economics of beer sales and determined their concessionaire setup would only allow 10 plastic cups sold per hour. Not enough revenue to justify and they might run out of beer anyway before end of 1st quarter.

The nail has been hit squarely on the head. I'm sure they are marvelous human beings, but the efficiency of our concession people (based on buying waters every game) is stupifyingly minimal....when you see a line of people ten deep, and the worker is meticulously wiping down each water bottle with a dry cloth, you know you're in for a long wait. I had a series of interesting emails with Boo Corrigan (now AD at NC State I believe) about this, saw some minimal improvement for a game or two, then back to square one....I'd much prefer to deal with a food truck or ANY entity which has a profit motive and knows the value of waiting on people quickly and efficiently (and giving them something of value).

Pghdukie
06-28-2019, 01:48 PM
Rum soaked Pies !

devildeac
06-28-2019, 01:56 PM
Rum soaked Pies !

Why only rum? :rolleyes:;)

HereBeforeCoachK
06-28-2019, 02:28 PM
One or two drunks can chase away a lot of paying customers. One bad experience and they don't come back. One can cost you three or four. Poor risk.

I disagree with your analysis.......as a season tix holder with the Carolina Hurricanes, I've rarely seen drunk behavior, and they sell hard liquor, wine and beer. And lots of it. Buffalo Sabre fans are an exception, but that's an entirely different topic.

Beer and liquor is sold in many sporting venues, with relatively few problems, and certainly not the driving away of fans.

Reilly
06-30-2019, 01:30 PM
This says more than half of all FBS venues sell alcohol: https://jmusports.com/news/2019/5/23/beer-sales-for-2019-football-season.aspx

budwom
06-30-2019, 03:29 PM
My personal, if limited experience has been that the behavior of the crowd is much more dependent on the nature and culture of the fan base than on whether alcohol is served or not.

In some places, loud, ugly intoxication seems to be part of the culture....maybe some of these places have cleaned up their act in the last decade or so, but NY Jets and NE Patriots crowds were hideously ugly the last time I visited.
Major tailgating intoxication followed by loud and obscene game watching.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-30-2019, 06:09 PM
My personal, if limited experience has been that the behavior of the crowd is much more dependent on the nature and culture of the fan base than on whether alcohol is served or not.

In some places, loud, ugly intoxication seems to be part of the culture...maybe some of these places have cleaned up their act in the last decade or so, but NY Jets and NE Patriots crowds were hideously ugly the last time I visited.
Major tailgating intoxication followed by loud and obscene game watching.

NFL crowds are almost universally nasty.....compared to college crowds.

DU82
06-30-2019, 06:26 PM
This says more than half of all FBS venues sell alcohol: https://jmusports.com/news/2019/5/23/beer-sales-for-2019-football-season.aspx

One thought I’ve read is that there’s more control over behavior by selling inside the stadium rather than having some people over-indulge outside before the game.

Don’t know if that’s been proven, but it’s a reasonable concept to me.

sagegrouse
06-30-2019, 07:30 PM
One thought I’ve read is that there’s more control over behavior by selling inside the stadium rather than having some people over-indulge outside before the game.

Don’t know if that’s been proven, but it’s a reasonable concept to me.

I would agree that there is a total lack of a control mechanism for the tailgates and tents in Blue Devil Alley, but the worst offenders are aging rapidly.