What is up with the Patriots?

[JasonEvans]

How do folks feel about them going for it on 4th down with less than 9 minutes left in the game leading by 38-zip? Are they trying to run up the score on the opposition? Brady played until the final few minutes of the 4th quarter and was still passing on 1st down and 2nd and short in the 4th quarter when they were leading by 30+ points.

I am unsure how I feel about this. I think I feel differently about the concept of running it up when we are talking about pros versus high school or college games. Pros get more leeway in my mind because there is more parity and a much more level playing field for all teams as opposed to in college and high school.

Still, I think a solid argument can be made for "continuing to play our game" even with a big lead. Similarly, I can see New England saying "we'll pull our starters when our opponent pulls their's." I can also see letting the backup QB continue to throw late in the game as he needs to get experience and work if he is ever needed for real.

I dunno-- I want to hear arguments from all of you about this.

--Jason "the Pats are absurdly good this year... does Indy have a chance?" Evans

[Channing]

argument for: somewhat similar to, IMO, Duke in 99. I think Bellichek wants them to keep the foot on the accelerator the entire game so that they know how to play hard at the end of the games. Sooner or later they are going to be in a close one, and if they are in the habit of playing hard for 3/4 of a game, who knows what could happen in that final quarter.

I agree it is "unsportsmanlike" to run up the score, but I can understand why they are doing it. I think it is more for their own benefit rather than to embarass the other team.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

After watching the Colts humiliate the Panthers yesterday and the Pats do the same to their opponent, both sporting "perfect", unbeaten records and are the class of the NFL, and watching the Dolphins continue their "unperfect season" in London, I have a feeling that this is the year that my 17-0 1972-3 Dolphins (Csonka, Kiick, Warfield, Griese (with Earl Morrall in relief), et al) http://www.phins.com/72phins/ won't get to toast the last unbeaten team lose.

It is sort of like rooting for Florida to lose last year so they wouldn't repeat as champions, duplicating Duke's feat of '91 - '92. Records are meant to be broken.

[rthomas]

Even the Pats second string QB ran up the score on the inept Redskins. Reminds me of Spurrier coaching Florida. What is up with the NFC?

How bad is the NFC? Looks like a good year to be a Dallas fan. Looks like an easy path to the Super Bowl. And Dallas was already soundly whipped by the Patriots.

I'm picking the Colts next weekend.

[feldspar]

The Pats are a legitimate juggernaut.

The Panthers exposed the Colts' weaknesses in the first half, but weren't able to duplicate in the second. I think the Colts have a lot more weaknesses than the Patriots.

And, yes, Jason I think you're right in assuming that Belichick wants to keep the pedal to the metal the entire season, the entire game. He has a healthy team that's obviously hungry to score and he's not going to say no to them if they want to go for the jugular.

I also think there's a bit of a "fear factor" going on. It seems the Pats want everyone to open the paper on Monday morning and go :eek: when they see the box score.

It's worked so far.

[cspan37421]

Still, I think a solid argument can be made for "continuing to play our game" even with a big lead. Similarly, I can see New England saying "we'll pull our starters when our opponent pulls their's." I can also see letting the backup QB continue to throw late in the game as he needs to get experience and work if he is ever needed for real.

I dunno-- I want to hear arguments from all of you about this.



IMO conditioning should be a nonissue midway through season. NE should have pulled their starters once the game was clearly out of reach (opinions may vary about when that was), and see if Wash would do the same. So NE should have made the first concession, see if it was reciprocated.

Second, it is foolish to keep your starters in there to set records. You risk their injury and detriment to the team, in order to pump up an individual's stats. Foolish and selfish. Last time I checked Brady's backup was unimpressive against the woeful Dolphins! You don't want to risk Brady getting injured - and a team that is getting embarrassed might take a hard shot at him if given the chance.

Third, what goes around, comes around. Maybe not this year or next - but sometime. Fourth, it benefits your 2nd/3rd team to get real game experience, more than it benefits your starters by pushing them the whole game.

I understand the argument that these are all big boys and they're being paid to stop the other team, etc., and no, I don't have sympathy for a lousy team, but from the perspective of coaching wisely, I see no benefit to running up the score on a beaten team, unless you're in a points-for, points-against tiebreaking situation. Even if that is a small but reasonable chance, I'd make the 2nd team run it up on them, not the first.

Just my opinion.

[Udaman]

Bill Simmons has called this the Ef You Factor, and says the Patriots are shoving it in everyone's face that after the "stealing signals" thing came out and people were calling them cheaters and questioning their previous titles, that the Patriots basically decided to shove it in everyone's face.

Personally, I see this as Bill Simmons trying to justify something that if he were not a Patriots fan would be harping about without hesitation. They are running up the score. They are acting like jerks. Yes, it is about intimidation, but it is terrible, terrible sportsmanship. People on both sides of the ball are professionals. Going for it on 4th down up 38 is akin to having a baseball player steal 2nd when you are up 12-0. In baseball if you do that, the next guy is going to get drilled. Trust me, in football one of these games, someone is going to wait about 5 seconds after Brady releases a pass and just absolutely drill him. And he'll deserve it.

I've always liked the Patriots, and Tom Brady. But this is Bush. It's making me like them less and less.

That said, they are going to kill Indy this week, and I mean kill - 17 points or more. Fact is they should have won last year in Indy, and they are about 5 times better than they were back then, and the Colts still have a gimpy Harrison (at best).

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

I agree 100% with everything that Udaman just posted. A few years ago I was a sentimental Patriots fan (after my Panthers, of course) and loved reading BSG. The behavior of both this season has soured me tremendously.

First, I absolutely don't buy Simmons' "FU factor" nonsense. They cheated. They were exposed and rightly ripped for doing so. So now they claim some moral high ground to "strike back" at folks for ripping them FOR CHEATING!?! That's like Tarkanian arguing that UNLV was running up the score to answer people who hated them for cheating.

In a general sense I don't have a problem with teams scoring a lot and I was 100% behind Brady coming in (in the 3rd quarter) last week after his backup threw an interception on his first pass. But going for it on 4th down at that time with that score is just absolutely classless. Someone said that pros should get some leeway as compared to college guys, but shouldn't professionals be expected to act in a more, um, professional, manner than enthusiastic college kids? Shouldn't a professional respect the game and their fellow professionals enough to win with class, rather than rubbing their win in the noses of a team that is really down this season? BSG himself was KILLING Manning for running up the score a few years ago for exactly these reasons.

Whether or not you buy the sportsmanship argument (I emphatically do and feel exactly the same way about this as I did about the reprehensible Lawson dunk against State in the ACC title game last year) there are very good practical reasons to put the brakes on in a situation like that. I never root for injury, but playing your best guys waaay too much and intentionally running up the score against large, violent players is going to lead to something nasty. It may be a dirty/late hit, a legal but vicious sack, or just a freak turn of events, but with the backup that they have I would keep the Chosen One away from the action whenever possible.

Behaving as the Pats have is low-class, generates a lot of ill-will from fans and opposing teams (who will only be more inclined to get up for their games and maybe take a cheap shot), and risks an irreplaceable star player for no good reason. It takes a great story about an historically good team on an unbelievable run and turns it into a story about crass bullies pounding on an historically weak division.

[rthomas]

Bill Simmons has called this the Ef You Factor, and says the Patriots are shoving it in everyone's face that after the "stealing signals" thing came out and people were calling them cheaters and questioning their previous titles, that the Patriots basically decided to shove it in everyone's face.


If this is a factor and I don't doubt it is - then one more "revenge" factor may have been that Dan Snyder was the last person to fire Belichek.

[Bostondevil]

Hmmmm, so taking a cheap shot at a QB because his team can manhandle you on the field is good sportsmanship? Seriously though, the Patriots offensive line is just too good to let that happen. Matt Light, Dan Koppen, Nick Kaczur, Steve Neal, Russ Hochstein, those guys really don't get enough credit for what the Pats are doing this year. What a phenomenal offensive line!

The Patriots were accused of cheating, you may have heard about it on some talk shows. There is evidence to support that were doing something all NFL teams do to some degree, they're the only ones who have been punished for it. OK, they got caught, ha, ha, ha! That showed them. On some of these same talk shows and in the newspapers the Patriots prior Super Bowl victories were called into question. I think what the Pats are doing is saying, "You think we can't win without cheating? Here, take a look at this." At the end of the season when the players start giving the quotes about all the adversity the team had to overcome (yeah, right) this is what they'll be talking about.

The thing about this years Patriots is they are the best football team we've seen in a long, long time. They don't have a weakness. They've got one of the best quarterbacks of all time, a 5th round pick that really nobody saw coming. They've got one of the best receivers of all time at a point in his career where really, all he wants to do is win. The rest of the receiving crew is just good, really good, NFL quality good. Their running game is excellent, put together with a top quality back followed by some situational backs who I'll admit aren't big stars but they buy into whatever it is they are selling Foxborough and are playing up to their abilities. And that's just the offense.

Hate the Pats as much as you want, but I for one appreciate just watching them this season for the clinic they are giving on how to play the game. And they're doing it with a salary cap. It's an incredibly well managed team to boot. On second though no wonder people hate them, you can't get owners like the Krafts everyday. Yes, we are lucky, lucky, lucky here in New England cause now we seem to have owners who get it over on Yawkey Way as well.

In 1991, I said to anyone who would listen before the UNLV game that if Duke could keep it close, Vegas was in real trouble because they hadn't played a close game all year. Someone up thread suggested that perhaps the Pats are trying to mentally simulate close games. Good for them! If you start putting the breaks on and worrying about what the other team is going to think, well, if this team chooses to play like the score is always tied, that's their choice. They want to win a Super Bowl and I suspect it takes a certain mentality to do that when your team is so much better than everyone else. You start taking downs, drives, quarters off, you might lose your edge. This team is built around a certain mentality and easing up is not part of that mentality. Just because the other team can't keep up, they shouldn't have to change.

Don't worry, fans of other teams, it won't last forever. I'm just glad I'm in a position to enjoy the ride. I've never seen a football season like it. GO PATS!

[mr. synellinden]

How do folks feel about them going for it on 4th down with less than 9 minutes left in the game leading by 38-zip? Are they trying to run up the score on the opposition? Brady played until the final few minutes of the 4th quarter and was still passing on 1st down and 2nd and short in the 4th quarter when they were leading by 30+ points.

A couple of thoughts on this. First, I agree with something Tom Jackson said on The Blitz last night. If you don't like it, do something to stop them. You're all professionals, the best players in the world, so show some pride and do something to stop them from running up the score. If you can't, then you can't complain. In the post-game press conference, Joe Gibbs said he had no problem with what the Patriots did during the game. So I think no team has a right to complain.

That being said, I think there is no question Belichick is sticking his middle finger up to the entire league in response to the cheating scandal and the whole team has bought into the we're going to go full out for 60 minutes and drum every opponent as much as possible. I don't have a problem with that philosophical approach -- even though most teams would have taken a knee on that last possession against Dallas two weeks ago and would be running the ball up 38-0 in the fourth quarter -- there is something to be said for competing as hard as you can regardless of the score. I think instilling that kind of championship driven mentality builds toughness, determination, camaraderie and focus. However, it is all going to come crashing down when during some game in December Tom Brady, playing in a 41-3 blowout in the fourth quarter, breaks a finger on his throwing hand by hitting it on a lineman's helmet, or Randy Moss rolls an ankle trying to make a leaping catch in the end zone against three defenders, or some other injury to a key player who should have been on the bench during garbage time.

I am certain that is how this is going to play out, and when it does, people will be saying it's karma and Belichick got what he deserved for sticking his middle finger up to the rest of the league - and they will be right.

[billybreen]

Bill Simmons has called this the Ef You Factor, and says the Patriots are shoving it in everyone's face that after the "stealing signals" thing came out and people were calling them cheaters and questioning their previous titles, that the Patriots basically decided to shove it in everyone's face.

Bill has ridden the surprising resurgence of the Boston sports scene to prominence, but the worm is definitely turning. He's been writing the same insipid columns for the past decade, with his played out faux machismo and pop culture jokes. Hell, he's even made Vegas and poker boring.

But I'm actually fine with the Pats running up the score. And not because I think it's morally justified as retribution for all the finger pointing. I like it because it gives me exciting high scoring games and gives us hope that Belichick will put the starters in for 3 quarters against the Giants if a 16-0 season is on the line.

I am fairly ambivalent to the Pats and all Boston area sports teams (I am less a fan of their fans), but I like seeing history in the making.

[kexman]

This may be somewhat of a hockey mentality, but you take Brady out. You blitz a linebacker and you lay Brady out....I don't care if it is 3 seconds after the whistle. You lay him out!!! Maybe it is bad sportsmanship? However, I don't think you let your team get embarrassed in the 4th quarter. Have some pride! You might argue they could play defense, but that obviously wasn't working. I think one good late hit on Brady would solve the problem. If you think Brady is over the line you can lay out Moss on a late hit.

I applaud a team that doesn't get chippy when they are losing badly...however, I change my opinion when a team is running out of the shotgun on 1st and 2nd down up by 40 points. If anything the Pats should be working on their running game. Second, we saw last week what happens if Brady is out of the game...I would not want him in any game longer than he needs to be if I was a pats fan.


My opinions may be jaded by the fact that I was up against Moss and Welker in my fantasy league.

[bluebear]

This may be somewhat of a hockey mentality, but you take Brady out. You blitz a linebacker and you lay Brady out....I don't care if it is 3 seconds after the whistle. You lay him out!!! Maybe it is bad sportsmanship? However, I don't think you let your team get embarrassed in the 4th quarter. Have some pride! You might argue they could play defense, but that obviously wasn't working. I think one good late hit on Brady would solve the problem. If you think Brady is over the line you can lay out Moss on a late hit.

I applaud a team that doesn't get chippy when they are losing badly...however, I change my opinion when a team is running out of the shotgun on 1st and 2nd down up by 40 points. If anything the Pats should be working on their running game. Second, we saw last week what happens if Brady is out of the game...I would not want him in any game longer than he needs to be if I was a pats fan.


My opinions may be jaded by the fact that I was up against Moss and Welker in my fantasy league.

I'm a Pats fan and I freely admit that if Brady gets hurt on a LEGAL hit when they are up 35-0 then BB has some explaining to do..but advocating taking a cheap shot, late hit is way over the top. The Pats could work on their running game but they also have 1 RB out and another one coming back from injury. Could they use a FB or their 4th string RB? Sure...but they could also just continue to work on the offense that they are going to need against Indy, etc.

[Dukerati]

As a broken Redskins fan, I wanted to say that I had no problem with what the Patriots did. A loss is a loss, regardless of score, and they can do whatever they want. I think people have a tendency to let emotion cloud their judgement whenever their team is losing by a wide margin. It already hurts and when the other team continues to pile on the pain, fans look for an outlet to channel their helplessness and it usually ends up being the other team. The Patriots are a professional organization doing what they feel they need to do to win a championship.

What I AM mad about is my Redskins. I completely agree with Kex above on what the Redskins should have done. It's fine to leave Brady in the fourth quarter of a blowout but CHANGE YOUR GAME PLAN. Clearly sitting in the cover-2 was not working. If the first two touchdowns did not get the point across, the next ten billion should have. Send the kitchen sink at Brady and put a little fear into him! What's the worst that could have happened? They score another touchdown? Oh the horror! I wanted to see Brady laid out. If that had happened, I bet this "run up the score" argument would not have to be rehashed again this season.............

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Running up the score on the weakest AFC (East) in years with a Randy Moss-led passing attack doesn't do much to persuade me that their documented cheating didn't play a role in their three (one FG) superbowl wins with completely different personnel.

And the argument that "if you don't like it, stop them" may make sense addressed to other teams' front offices, but on the field the Pats just have so much more talent than most of the teams they are playing. How, other than through some sort of dirty play (i.e. "laying Brady out"), should the overmatched players on the Dolphins, Bills, Jets, etc. "stop" them from running up the score? I'm absolutely not advocating any sort of dirty play, but this argument only makes sense as a call to do exactly that. Maybe the answer is not to shove the other teams' nose into the mud until their only options are to either play dirty or be called "unmanly."

The Pats are clearly the best team right now and I'd love to cheer for them as they set all sorts of records. They're just making it hard to do that right now.

[Udaman]

So I haven't played a sport professionally, but I played baseball, football and soccer in high school (my graduating class was only 49, so pretty much you had to play if you could walk)...and then played on a ton of IM teams here at Duke. As someone who loves playing sports....there is NOTHING more annoying than when you are playing a team better than you, and they start rubbing it in your face. Doing freaking behind the back passes when they are smoking you in basketball. Continually pushing the ball on soccer when they are up 6-0. Doing a hard slide into second when they are up by 8 runs in baseball, etc, etc. It's about sportsmanship.

I'm also the nicest guy when I play sports...but I can remember one team killing us in IM basketball, and when a guy drove the lane for the 5th time in a row up by about 30 points, I fouled him as hard as I possibly could. I should have been tossed from the game, but even the ref was like, "Dude had it coming."

I don't advocate someone taking a cheap shot at Brady, but when you are rubbing in your opponent's face, sometimes bad things happen, and it is so easy to avoid.

Also, BSimmons needs to start calling out his team for this. If it were anyone else, he would be all over them.

[wiscodevil]

but only bc i have Welker on my fantasy team.

[bluebear]

So I haven't played a sport professionally, but I played baseball, football and soccer in high school (my graduating class was only 49, so pretty much you had to play if you could walk)...and then played on a ton of IM teams here at Duke. As someone who loves playing sports....there is NOTHING more annoying than when you are playing a team better than you, and they start rubbing it in your face. Doing freaking behind the back passes when they are smoking you in basketball. Continually pushing the ball on soccer when they are up 6-0. Doing a hard slide into second when they are up by 8 runs in baseball, etc, etc. It's about sportsmanship.

I'm also the nicest guy when I play sports...but I can remember one team killing us in IM basketball, and when a guy drove the lane for the 5th time in a row up by about 30 points, I fouled him as hard as I possibly could. I should have been tossed from the game, but even the ref was like, "Dude had it coming."

I don't advocate someone taking a cheap shot at Brady, but when you are rubbing in your opponent's face, sometimes bad things happen, and it is so easy to avoid.

Also, BSimmons needs to start calling out his team for this. If it were anyone else, he would be all over them.

I'm not disagreeing that one should hit hard, foul hard etc. but there is a difference between that and taking a cheap shot. There are people who are arguing for "taking out" Brady even if it means an illegal hit. It seems ironic that one would argue that as a response to "unsportsmanlike" conduct by the Pats. Having played sports as well, I never liked it when people rubbed it in, but I'm also not a professional athlete paid to do a job. While they were putting points up, they weren't exactly running flea flickers. To be honest, I think the Pats could have really scored more than they have. They could have put up 70 last week against the fins. I'm obviously biased but I will admit that the Pats are walking a fine line (just don't think they have totally crossed the line yet). The difference in my mind is that the Pats are not resorting to show-boating but rather have just continued to play with the same intensity in the 4th quarter as they do in the first quarter...

[tombrady]

um kicking a field goal on 4th down would be running up the score -- 3 guaranteed points.

by going for it on 4th down, you're giving the other team yet another chance to stop you. Most 4th down conversions fail.

edit: and whats wrong with trying to break records? these guys want to go down as the very best ever -- they've accomplished everything else, why not?

[rthomas]

um kicking a field goal on 4th down would be running up the score -- 3 guaranteed points.

by going for it on 4th down, you're giving the other team yet another chance to stop you. Most 4th down conversions fail.

edit: and whats wrong with trying to break records? these guys want to go down as the very best ever -- they've accomplished everything else, why not?

Mr. Brady, Not unbiased are you?:)

[tombrady]

Mr. Brady, Not unbiased are you?:)

of course not. but my point stands.

[snowdenscold]

So I haven't played a sport professionally, but I played baseball, football and soccer in high school (my graduating class was only 49, so pretty much you had to play if you could walk)...and then played on a ton of IM teams here at Duke. As someone who loves playing sports....there is NOTHING more annoying than when you are playing a team better than you, and they start rubbing it in your face. Doing freaking behind the back passes when they are smoking you in basketball. Continually pushing the ball on soccer when they are up 6-0. Doing a hard slide into second when they are up by 8 runs in baseball, etc, etc. It's about sportsmanship.

I'm also the nicest guy when I play sports...but I can remember one team killing us in IM basketball, and when a guy drove the lane for the 5th time in a row up by about 30 points, I fouled him as hard as I possibly could. I should have been tossed from the game, but even the ref was like, "Dude had it coming."

I don't advocate someone taking a cheap shot at Brady, but when you are rubbing in your opponent's face, sometimes bad things happen, and it is so easy to avoid.

Also, BSimmons needs to start calling out his team for this. If it were anyone else, he would be all over them.

I understand where you're coming from - and if you're playing high school or college IM, it is inappropriate. However, like blubear said, these people are all professionals who actually get paid to do this.

I feel really bad for the losing team in the circumstances you describe - even in varsity college sports I feel bad for teams getting crushed - but just not for the pros who get millions of dollars to play. Their job is to bring a competitive game onto the field.

And, btw, I'm a Redskins fan.

[jacone21]

After watching NFL defensive players celebrate every play, and taunt, and flex, and pose, and dance, and act like complete jackasses.... I take a lot of pleasure in watching them get their butts handed to them by the Patriots. Bringing up sportsmanship at this point is hypocritical. Dance to that, beeeyotches! :p

[greybeard]

I think that the B man is just trying to prove that he can win without, um, cheating. Yeap. Really impressed the hell out of me, he did. Doesn't change one freakin thing. The man cheated to get an edge for late in the season. Probably has done it in years past.

Cheater, Cheater, Cheater. He can get his team to win by 100. To me, he is and forever will be a cheat. "No, no, you can't take that away from him."

P.S. He's also an idiot!

[bluebear]

I think that the B man is just trying to prove that he can win without, um, cheating. Yeap. Really impressed the hell out of me, he did. Doesn't change one freakin thing. The man cheated to get an edge for late in the season. Probably has done it in years past.

Cheater, Cheater, Cheater. He can get his team to win by 100. To me, he is and forever will be a cheat. "No, no, you can't take that away from him."

P.S. He's also an idiot!

Oh please..no doubt he deserved to be punished but this is beyond dramatic..please give me your evidence on how BB specifically gained any edge in any of his past wins..anything you offer is baseless speculation.

[feldspar]

Bill has ridden the surprising resurgence of the Boston sports scene to prominence, but the worm is definitely turning. He's been writing the same insipid columns for the past decade, with his played out faux machismo and pop culture jokes. Hell, he's even made Vegas and poker boring.

But I'm actually fine with the Pats running up the score. And not because I think it's morally justified as retribution for all the finger pointing. I like it because it gives me exciting high scoring games and gives us hope that Belichick will put the starters in for 3 quarters against the Giants if a 16-0 season is on the line.

I am fairly ambivalent to the Pats and all Boston area sports teams (I am less a fan of their fans), but I like seeing history in the making.


Oh, breen. Just admit it. You don't mind it because you own Brady in your fantasy football league.

[billybreen]

Oh, breen. Just admit it. You don't mind it because you own Brady in your fantasy football league.

Unfortunately, I'm not even in a fantasy league. It's a sad story. Last year I was in a league with a group of Microsoft employees, but they decided to keep it within the company this year.

I guess it's not that sad.

[billybreen]

Oh please..no doubt he deserved to be punished but this is beyond dramatic..please give me your evidence on how BB specifically gained any edge in any of his past wins..anything you offer is baseless speculation.

Don't engage him. Otherwise we'll have to deal with pages of posts about how we shouldn't be surprised at BB's bad behavior since anyone associated with a morally bankrupt sport such as football is a fundamentally flawed human being.

[feldspar]

Unfortunately, I'm not even in a fantasy league. It's a sad story. Last year I was in a league with a group of Microsoft employees, but they decided to keep it within the company this year.

I guess it's not that sad.

Next time you better PM me. I've got a couple leagues I could have used a quality manager in.

[YmoBeThere]

(I am less a fan of their fans)

Hmmm, I have met a few of their fans that were ummm, acceptable...

[billybreen]

Hmmm, I have met a few of their fans that were ummm, acceptable...

Oh sure, I like most of the fans I know personally.

[JasonEvans]

I think that the B man is just trying to prove that he can win without, um, cheating. Yeap. Really impressed the hell out of me, he did. Doesn't change one freakin thing. The man cheated to get an edge for late in the season. Probably has done it in years past.

Cheater, Cheater, Cheater. He can get his team to win by 100. To me, he is and forever will be a cheat. "No, no, you can't take that away from him."

P.S. He's also an idiot!

I think you can make your points while not being mean-spirited, GB. Please try to keep it under control.

-Jason

[Exiled_Devil]

As a casual fan of the NFL, I see no problem with this. I don't see how people are saying that the Patriots are desecrating the game or insulting their opponents. They are playing all out for the whole game. I would expect that from a professional sports team. I tend to agree with the comments echoed here - defenses should just stop them if they think it is wrong.

I think there is validity to BB pushing it on everyone because of the talk about tainted Superbowls. He is showing people what his offense can do if it is unrestrained. It's kind of fun. I also see the whole "cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater" as silly. First of all, the videotaping seems to me like very aggressive scouting. It's just what happens when technology meets the game. Secondly, I find it hard to believe that this wasn't SOP for all the teams in the league.

So, my position is go for it. It makes for good football and good television.

[gvtucker]

We're talking professional sports here. I'm in Tom Jackson's camp. You don't like it, you find a way to stop them.

[murpho]

It makes betting on the Pats very easy with no need to worry about them letting off the gas and letting the huge underdog cover. This week I believe they are giving 4 to the Colts.

[JasonEvans]

It makes betting on the Pats very easy with no need to worry about them letting off the gas and letting the huge underdog cover. This week I believe they are giving 4 to the Colts.

This is likely the last time you will see the Pats as less than a 2 TD favorite this season and the only time you will see the Colts as an underdog (until they likely face again in the Super Bowl... I mean in the AFC Championship).

--Jason "what is the over/under? If it is less than 55, I'm betting the over" Evans

[billybreen]

This is likely the last time you will see the Pats as less than a 2 TD favorite this season and the only time you will see the Colts as an underdog (until they likely face again in the Super Bowl... I mean in the AFC Championship).

If the Pats win by less than 14, I will be shocked. Especially since the Colts have a banged up Marvin Harrison.

[hurleyfor3]

This is likely the last time you will see the Pats as less than a 2 TD favorite this season and the only time you will see the Colts as an underdog (until they likely face again in the Super Bowl... I mean in the AFC Championship).

--Jason "what is the over/under? If it is less than 55, I'm betting the over" Evans

I want the Pats to keep blowing people out just to see what the lines are gonna be like. I think the St. Louis Rams in the Kurt Warner era were -22 once; the biggest line I recall the 49ers ever getting to was -19. They can't make the line big enough against the Pats. You want 25 points? 30? You sure?

The NE/Indy line right now looks like Pats -5½ and 56½.

[Mal]

My guess is the over/under will end up at 60 or more, as fans have seen the Patriots put up 40+ multiple times already and think of the Colts as a team that plays in a lot of shootouts, too (although that's no longer really true). I'd take the under - Indy will attempt to keep Brady off the field by slowing the game down, and has the ability to actually do so, at least more than the Jets, Dolphins and Redskins could. The Patriots haven't played a defense in the top half of the league yet, either (they've barely played defenses in the top 3/4), and somehow the Colts unit has turned into one of the top 5 or 10 in the league. Also, New England showed no ability to stop Manning and Co. last time around, although they've upgraded defensively and Harrison's knicked up. But Addai and Keith and the Colts O-line have a decent chance of pounding it and eating some clock. So I don't see Brady getting enough possessions or time to throw another 5 TD passes.

That said, without Marvin, I don't think the Colts can find the end zone enough to keep up. I'll go 31-23, New England. If Sanders can make a few plays, or Freeney can get in Brady's face, and the Colts offense can keep Moss and Brady off the field, there's a chance Moss starts getting petulant and tries to do too much or Brady presses and makes a few mistakes. That's the only way Indy can win, I think. I can't remember a reigning Super Bowl champion, improved from the championship season, playing at home, who will be incredibly fired up and feeling disrespected all week, that needed as many things to break their way to have a chance at winning a game. That's how good the Patriots are right now. I guess this game does have a slight Duke/UConn '99 feel to it - the Colts have been plugging away against pretty good teams, N.E. hasn't been close to tested yet - so anything's possible, but I don't see the upset happening.

To the original topic, I don't think it's impossible to hold two contradictory ideas in my head on this: I don't feel any pity for professional defenses getting shown up, and I think Belicheck looks petty and sophomoric. Whatever point they're trying to make, it's made by the time they're up 35-0 in the 3rd quarter. The starting offense is not learning how to "compete for a full 60 minutes" or perform under pressure in crunch time against a defeated defense in a 45-point blowout. All they're doing is risking injury.

[EarlJam]

New England will beat the Colts by a score of 31-21.

I cannot reveal my sources, but I promise this will be the case. I have very solid inside information and am willing to take bets.

-EarlJam

[whereinthehellami]

This may be somewhat of a hockey mentality, but you take Brady out. You blitz a linebacker and you lay Brady out....I don't care if it is 3 seconds after the whistle. You lay him out!!! Maybe it is bad sportsmanship? However, I don't think you let your team get embarrassed in the 4th quarter. Have some pride! You might argue they could play defense, but that obviously wasn't working. I think one good late hit on Brady would solve the problem. If you think Brady is over the line you can lay out Moss on a late hit.

I applaud a team that doesn't get chippy when they are losing badly...however, I change my opinion when a team is running out of the shotgun on 1st and 2nd down up by 40 points. If anything the Pats should be working on their running game. Second, we saw last week what happens if Brady is out of the game...I would not want him in any game longer than he needs to be if I was a pats fan.

It only takes one frustrated player to put Brady out for a while. Why risk it? Because you're mad at the league because you cheated. That seems incredibly short sighted for a coach of that caliber. Why not let your FG kicker get some work in on those 4th downs.

IMO running up the score is beyond lame and short sighted. If I'm a Pats fan, I'm pissed at the coaches. When you're ahead by that large of a margin, its a free chance to work on parts of your game that need work. No team is perfect and the pats back-ups should have been in their working for when (not if) they are needed.

I enjoy watching the pats because they are that good. But they make it hard to root for them. Cheating and running up the score. LAME. The Running Rebels of the NFL.

[mr. synellinden]

From ESPN.com's weekly NFL power rankings:

"The issue for us is not running up the score -- it's risking Tom Brady's health during times when the game no longer is in doubt. Bill Belichick may be the best coach in the league, but that sure seems like a stupid, stubborn move."

Stupid, stubborn, petty, childish, arrogant -- I agree with all of those.

[hurleyfor3]

LAME. The Running Rebels of the NFL.

I don't think Unlv ran up the score a whole lot in '91. They played in a horrible conference, and I recall seeing a lot of Everic Gray, H Waldman and Travis Bice in second halves that year.

Dale Brown blew what, a 33-point second half lead once, and Tark wasn't a whole lot better as a bench coach than him. I don't blame Tark. Then there was us in 1999... I won't go there. Oops, just did.

A tertiary problem with repeatedly running up the score is you get benchmarked to a higher performance standard, and even your own fans start wondering why you won by "only" three touchdowns.

[Clipsfan]

Yeah, I saw the box score from Sunday's game and thought "he only threw 3 TDs?" Then I saw that he ran for 2 and thought "ok, that explains it". Talk about a tough benchmark...if Brady doesn't score 4-5 TDs I think he had a bad game.

[hc5duke]

New England will beat the Colts by a score of 31-21.

I cannot reveal my sources, but I promise this will be the case. I have very solid inside information and am willing to take bets.

-EarlJam
To quote my favorite show...

<Dale Gribble>The Super Bowl was pre-taped six months ago in the same Nevada hangar where they faked the moon landing.

[greybeard]

Oh please..no doubt he deserved to be punished but this is beyond dramatic..please give me your evidence on how BB specifically gained any edge in any of his past wins..anything you offer is baseless speculation.

Ok, he was taping games even though he had been warned because he had nothing better to do.

My point, bluebear, is that his running up the score to me is inexplicable, except to show the world who cares, I don't, that his record cannot be sullied by his cavilier disregard of the rules, i.e., his having cheated.

If there is a better explanation, I ain't seen it.

grey "my only real thoughts about Football are that it is gratuitously brutal; it maims boatloads of players for life for the entertainment of the mob; it should be banned" beard

How bout those Cowboys!

[allenmurray]

please give me your evidence . . . anything you offer is baseless speculation.

Why would you ask someone for evidence if you have already decided that it is baseless speculation?

[bluebear]

Why would you ask someone for evidence if you have already decided that it is baseless speculation?

That's precisely my point..there is no evidence..and yet people are still drawing conclusions, developing their own version of the facts, and making hyperbolic claims about past games.

[greybeard]

That's precisely my point..there is no evidence..and yet people are still drawing conclusions, developing their own version of the facts, and making hyperbolic claims about past games.

Okay, I'm game, why'd he do it, in your estimation. We are all left to guess about the facts, whether he had done it before to his team's advantage, because the guy who is supposed to investigate such matters gave him a pass.

Don't tell me about fines and draft picks. If the Bman stole signals early in previous championship seasons, maybe it's just me, but I'm thinkin he used them later in making his run. The Commish had bigger fish to fry; making sure that the league's image wasn't tarnished by guys who, heaven forbid, might have smoked some weed to get through the pain.

Man, what a sport?

[bluebear]

Okay, I'm game, why'd he do it, in your estimation. We are all left to guess about the facts, whether he had done it before to his team's advantage, because the guy who is supposed to investigate such matters gave him a pass.

Don't tell me about fines and draft picks. If the Bman stole signals early in previous championship seasons, maybe it's just me, but I'm thinkin he used them later in making his run. The Commish had bigger fish to fry; making sure that the league's image wasn't tarnished by guys who, heaven forbid, might have smoked some weed to get through the pain.

Man, what a sport?

I said before that BB was caught doing something he was told not to do and was justifiably punished. I couldn't speculate on why he did it..maybe he didn't think it was a big deal (people "steal" signals through scouts and the naked eye all the time)..maybe he did it for the end of the season review as he suggested..maybe he didn't think he'd be caught (no one thinks he's the only coach to do this) or maybe he misinterpreted the rule.
My question for you is how logistically he used that information to his advantage. Again, signals are available to scouts and to coaches real time. Signals can be changed at any time. The Pats did not always play teams multiple times during their run. Defensive players aren't equipped with speakers. So how did this all work to help the Pats win in a way in some extraordinary way. It's just not a big deal..

[greybeard]

I said before that BB was caught doing something he was told not to do and was justifiably punished. I couldn't speculate on why he did it..maybe he didn't think it was a big deal (people "steal" signals through scouts and the naked eye all the time)..maybe he did it for the end of the season review as he suggested..maybe he didn't think he'd be caught (no one thinks he's the only coach to do this) or maybe he misinterpreted the rule.
My question for you is how logistically he used that information to his advantage. Again, signals are available to scouts and to coaches real time. Signals can be changed at any time. The Pats did not always play teams multiple times during their run. Defensive players aren't equipped with speakers. So how did this all work to help the Pats win in a way in some extraordinary way. It's just not a big deal..

Maybe you are right. Maybe one of those explanations works. Not for me, but for you and others. However, I have to believe that enough people think the worst and that talking heads will talk the talk come playoff time. Don't they always do stuff like that?

BTW, I didn't know that, with all they have to learn and tweak, teams would be changing hand signals for the defense in the midst of a season. If you say so.

I also didn't know that it was so easy to hand record the multiple signals, then match them up with the variuous sets, stunts, blitzes, coverages, a defense runs on a given play, all by one guy with a pencil and pad in real world time. If you say so.

On the other hand, if you have a film of the signals (time being recorded as the tape runs) and match it with a real time recording of play on the field, well, if you got the time, you got the answers. If I say so.

Anyway, I think Big Bill was trying to preempt this issue come playoff time by running up the score, and that that makes him even smaller than before, which in my eyes at least, was pretty darn small.

Your view does not move me. BTW, if it was "not a big deal," why the half million dollar fine; the draft choices?

In the end, I do think of all the talk (see, for example, Wilbon on PTI) about people taking an extra hard shot at Brady or Moss to send Big Bill a message is a tad over the top, even for a league in which, as in Rick's Casablanca, "life is cheap."

[greybeard]

Blue, I tried to edit the above but time had run. I was trying to be funny. Just playing, not with you; with what I agree is a silly situation. NBR. Hey, maybe the Dude was just trying to upset his protege, who he don't get along too good with. What do I know?

[xenic]

So I haven't played a sport professionally, but I played baseball, football and soccer in high school (my graduating class was only 49, so pretty much you had to play if you could walk)...and then played on a ton of IM teams here at Duke. As someone who loves playing sports....there is NOTHING more annoying than when you are playing a team better than you, and they start rubbing it in your face. Doing freaking behind the back passes when they are smoking you in basketball. Continually pushing the ball on soccer when they are up 6-0. Doing a hard slide into second when they are up by 8 runs in baseball, etc, etc. It's about sportsmanship.

I'm also the nicest guy when I play sports...but I can remember one team killing us in IM basketball, and when a guy drove the lane for the 5th time in a row up by about 30 points, I fouled him as hard as I possibly could. I should have been tossed from the game, but even the ref was like, "Dude had it coming."

I don't advocate someone taking a cheap shot at Brady, but when you are rubbing in your opponent's face, sometimes bad things happen, and it is so easy to avoid.

Also, BSimmons needs to start calling out his team for this. If it were anyone else, he would be all over them.

I disagree. While I like winning as much as the next guy, I think it is more disrespectful to me to not play hard all the way through the game. Showboating is a different story, but show me the respect I deserve as an opponent.

[xenic]

As a casual fan of the NFL, I see no problem with this. I don't see how people are saying that the Patriots are desecrating the game or insulting their opponents. They are playing all out for the whole game. I would expect that from a professional sports team. I tend to agree with the comments echoed here - defenses should just stop them if they think it is wrong.

I think there is validity to BB pushing it on everyone because of the talk about tainted Superbowls. He is showing people what his offense can do if it is unrestrained. It's kind of fun. I also see the whole "cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater" as silly. First of all, the videotaping seems to me like very aggressive scouting. It's just what happens when technology meets the game. Secondly, I find it hard to believe that this wasn't SOP for all the teams in the league.

So, my position is go for it. It makes for good football and good television.

Also, isn't this one of the major criticisms of the NBA?... that the players mail it in for the entire regular season.

[rockymtn devil]

First, to start with the cheating, I'm not a football coach or player. Nor am I a scout or general manager. Why's this important? Because as the epitome of an armchair QB, I have absolutely no idea what sort of advantage can be gained by taping opposing signals. Now, my imagination can lead me to some conclusions, but without being in those shoes, I can provide no specifics. Does that mean the Pats didn't gain an advantage by cheating? No. Clearly Belichick felt that there was some advantage to be gained and, given that the NFL had warned the entire league prior to the incident this season, it was an advantage that the Patriots decided was worth the risk. Why go to the trouble to have someone taping the Jets signals if there's nothing to gain?

Second, in terms of the running up the score, I agree with pretty much everything that's already been said. It's classless and careless (and pretty much what I expect from BB) but if the opponents don't like it, make a stop. With that said, couldn't the same thing be said about the Patriots motivation for running up the score? If the logic is that all of the scoring is revenge for the league piling on the Pats when they cheated, then shouldn't the response be that if the Pats don't like being piled on by the league they shouldn't cheat? In other words, if the Redskins don't like getting 50+ hung on them, make a stop. If the Pats don't like everyone calling them out for cheating, don't cheat.

Finally, I'm less convinced of the Patriors superiority this season after yesterday then I was going in. They were outplayed by a Colts team missing its best reciever (Harrison makes the catch that Gonzales dropped in the end zone) and its left-tackle. That game was lost when the Colts drove down the field on the first three possessions and walked away with 6 points. What became clear to me was that as great as the Patriots looked, their dominance was as much about the level of competition they had played to this point. Eventually their inability to stop the run will come back to haunt them. A team that can run the ball can keep the ball from Brady and keep the score in the 20s.

[Mal]

Too bad the Vikings aren't on the schedule, then! :eek: Just kidding, Brady would carve up their secondary like a brisket, but wow was Adrian Peterson (and the Vikes' o-line) outrageous yesterday. Holy cow!

Good synopsis - the missed field goal set a foreboding tone for sure. It probably should have been 27-10 with 8 minutes left, and although I wouldn't have been comfortable per se, it would have been a lot better than 20-10 and the Patriots marching. Give New England credit for figuring out a way to beat the Colts defense, who to that point had really taken it to them, over the last 1/8 of the game and making it count.

I'd be interested in seeing if Pittsburgh, with its ability to win on the ground and play aggressive defense, could give the Pats a decent fight, too. Other than that, it just dawned on me watching that game yesterday how far ahead those two teams are than any others in the league. New England's been beating everyone by 30 points a game, and clearly Indy's close to level with them, and have themselves been winning pretty handily over pretty stout opposition.

[billybreen]

Too bad the Vikings aren't on the schedule, then! :eek: Just kidding, Brady would carve up their secondary like a brisket, but wow was Adrian Peterson (and the Vikes' o-line) outrageous yesterday. Holy cow!

What an amazing debut. He's almost reaching Tiger at the Masters levels in terms of setting absurd expectations for a career. I'm curious to see how long he can keep up this level of production.

[wiscodevil]

What an amazing debut. He's almost reaching Tiger at the Masters levels in terms of setting absurd expectations for a career. I'm curious to see how long he can keep up this level of production.

and he's got a great nickname!
http://www.withleather.com/post.phtml?pk=4284

[bluebear]

Finally, I'm less convinced of the Patriors superiority this season after yesterday then I was going in. They were outplayed by a Colts team missing its best reciever (Harrison makes the catch that Gonzales dropped in the end zone) and its left-tackle. That game was lost when the Colts drove down the field on the first three possessions and walked away with 6 points. What became clear to me was that as great as the Patriots looked, their dominance was as much about the level of competition they had played to this point. Eventually their inability to stop the run will come back to haunt them. A team that can run the ball can keep the ball from Brady and keep the score in the 20s.

Firstly, the pats could lose a game at some point. Despite the gap in talent with other teams, strange things do happen in the NFL. Secondly, Addai is a great runner and really embarrassed the pats at times yesterday..but..I have to disagree with your assessment of the pats dominance to this point. They have played against the chargers, browns, skins, as well as at Dallas..all in playoff contention or better. Yesterday, they played the other best team in the league on the road, set a franchise record for penalties, were down 10 with 9 minutes to go and still won. Outside of some really bad missed tackles, their inability to stop the run was part of the game plan. They stacked the D with DBs to take away the deep threat of Wayne and Clark. Teams that focus mainly on the run will limit pats possessions but won't have the same type of success as Addai had yesterday. The colts remain the biggest threat because of their balance on offense. Harrison would help should they play again but hopefully that game will be on a snowy Janaury day in Foxboro...

[throatybeard]

Harrison would help should they play again but hopefully that game will be on a snowy Janaury day in Foxboro...

That's what this game was for. I can't believe people are calling it a "meaningless regular season game." No, it was for homefield, like the Colts had last year.

[billybreen]

Firstly, the pats could lose a game at some point. Despite the gap in talent with other teams, strange things do happen in the NFL. Secondly, Addai is a great runner and really embarrassed the pats at times yesterday..but..I have to disagree with your assessment of the pats dominance to this point.

I'm with you. The Pats have done well against a strong schedule.

It's interesting to note that the '72 Dolphins, rightly famous for being the last undefeated team, set their mark against pitiful competition. If the Pats win out, it will be a far more impressive record (especially given that they would need to win 2 more games to do it).