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View Full Version : Final takeaways from Duke Canada Tour



scottdude8
08-19-2018, 04:51 PM
For those who may be interested (and want to add their own two cents!), my major takeaways from watching the two games in Mississauga from (basically, haha) courtside, and the game in Montreal from my couch in Montreal (on TSN, no ESPN+ hassle!):

1) Zion is capable of single-handedly saving us in some "trap" games this year. I don't think I need to recap what everyone else has said about Zion, but know that it's even more impressive in person. My biggest takeaway has been this: there will be teams that simply won't be able to matchup with his unique skillset this year. Some of those teams are going to be the type of teams that have, in the past couple of seasons, handed us losses in the so-called "trap" games (i.e. on the road, short-rest, after/before bigger games, etc.). I think this dynamic will be responsible for at least one additional win this year compared to the recent one-and-done era, if not more. Those "trap" losses have arguably cost us No. 1 seeds in the past few years, so those extra wins could be huge.

2) We have the potential to be a great defensive team. This has gotten lost in the shuffle considering these games have largely amounted to scrimmages/dunk contests. But I saw multiple possessions in Mississauga where Duke played great team D, including some really nice help rotations and hustle (especially from the vets). I also loved that K had them play the 2-3 for a little bit, which shows me that this is something the team will be more prepared to play at stretches this year (as opposed to having to implement it mid-season like last season). The fact that Barrett and Williamson showed defensive intensity was also extremely encouraging. I think this team has the potential to be the best defensive team we've had in the recent one-and-done era. Admittedly that isn't a huge honor, haha, but the improvement should be noticeable.

3) Javin looks like he'll get starter's minutes even if he doesn't start. I imagine we'll have games where Javin starts, games where AOC (or maybe Jack) start and we play a smaller lineup, and games where Bolden (or maybe Vrank) start for a more traditional center. But I imagine Javin will get 20-30 minutes a game regardless. His defense and ability to guard multiple positions was even more apparent during this trip, and his offensive games seems to have matured as well. He seemed much more confident with the ball in his hands around the basket during the trip, and even showed some mid-range game. Lots of people have discussed Bolden a the "x-factor" for this team... I think it could end up being if Javin fully develops into a Lance Thomas/Amile Jefferson hybrid we've been fantasizing about.

4) Jack looks ready to contribute, as does (to a slightly lesser extent) Vrank. I was super impressed by the confidence Jack displayed this trip. If there was a silver lining to AOC's injury it was the increased playing time Jack got in Canada, which I think could pay dividends in his development. The Aussie was confident rotating the ball around the perimeter and taking the open three when it came to him, and he also really contributed defensively and on the glass with some hustle plays. I think he could answer a lot of questions about our team's depth if he continues on this track. Vrank, as was discussed in some of the front page articles here, has also looked like a different player. He's never going to be Brian Zoubek-light like I had hoped, but he's fully capable of providing 5-10 minutes off the bench in ACC play (and, more importantly, use his 5 fouls without being a liability). That could be big, especially with Marques Bolden being one of the few disappointments from the trip. Which leads me to my final point...

5) What's up with Marques Bolden is going to continue to be a nagging storyline. It was extremely telling to me that K chose not to start Marques today, and barely played him (if at all) in the second half against U of T. It's obviously not ideal to be a true center playing against teams that don't have one in a game that's up-and-down, but Vrank was able to contribute positively while Marques did very little... and, perhaps more importantly, I saw multiple defensive possessions where he didn't seem engaged in Mississauga. The best version of this Duke team includes Marques living up to his potential in the paint, but he still has a lot of questions to answer after this trip.

A few smaller points:
—Joey Baker (or, as my wife has dubbed him, "Baby Grayson) showed serious potential, but I don't think he's ready for prime time yet. I don't think he'd provide much more than a solid corner shooter at this point. Unless AOC's injury is more serious than initially thought I imagine he'll redshirt.
—R.J. Barrett is as advertised, but he's gotta improve his shot. I imagine that'll happen with consistent practice time.
—You could really see the fact that we were missing our primary ballhandler even though R.J. and Zion showed some fantastic passing. Tre could make R.J. and Zion better, which is scary.
—I think Justin Robinson will see legit playing time in a few ACC contests this year, and could conceivably be a rotation player next year if he continues to improve (and, more importantly, gain confidence).
—This is going to be a fun year.

Dukehky
08-19-2018, 05:32 PM
For those who may be interested (and want to add their own two cents!), my major takeaways from watching the two games in Mississauga from (basically, haha) courtside, and the game in Montreal from my couch in Montreal (on TSN, no ESPN+ hassle!):

1) Zion is capable of single-handedly saving us in some "trap" games this year. I don't think I need to recap what everyone else has said about Zion, but know that it's even more impressive in person. My biggest takeaway has been this: there will be teams that simply won't be able to matchup with his unique skillset this year. Some of those teams are going to be the type of teams that have, in the past couple of seasons, handed us losses in the so-called "trap" games (i.e. on the road, short-rest, after/before bigger games, etc.). I think this dynamic will be responsible for at least one additional win this year compared to the recent one-and-done era, if not more. Those "trap" losses have arguably cost us No. 1 seeds in the past few years, so those extra wins could be huge.

2) We have the potential to be a great defensive team. This has gotten lost in the shuffle considering these games have largely amounted to scrimmages/dunk contests. But I saw multiple possessions in Mississauga where Duke played great team D, including some really nice help rotations and hustle (especially from the vets). I also loved that K had them play the 2-3 for a little bit, which shows me that this is something the team will be more prepared to play at stretches this year (as opposed to having to implement it mid-season like last season). The fact that Barrett and Williamson showed defensive intensity was also extremely encouraging. I think this team has the potential to be the best defensive team we've had in the recent one-and-done era. Admittedly that isn't a huge honor, haha, but the improvement should be noticeable.

3) Javin looks like he'll get starter's minutes even if he doesn't start. I imagine we'll have games where Javin starts, games where AOC (or maybe Jack) start and we play a smaller lineup, and games where Bolden (or maybe Vrank) start for a more traditional center. But I imagine Javin will get 20-30 minutes a game regardless. His defense and ability to guard multiple positions was even more apparent during this trip, and his offensive games seems to have matured as well. He seemed much more confident with the ball in his hands around the basket during the trip, and even showed some mid-range game. Lots of people have discussed Bolden a the "x-factor" for this team... I think it could end up being if Javin fully develops into a Lance Thomas/Amile Jefferson hybrid we've been fantasizing about.

4) Jack looks ready to contribute, as does (to a slightly lesser extent) Vrank. I was super impressed by the confidence Jack displayed this trip. If there was a silver lining to AOC's injury it was the increased playing time Jack got in Canada, which I think could pay dividends in his development. The Aussie was confident rotating the ball around the perimeter and taking the open three when it came to him, and he also really contributed defensively and on the glass with some hustle plays. I think he could answer a lot of questions about our team's depth if he continues on this track. Vrank, as was discussed in some of the front page articles here, has also looked like a different player. He's never going to be Brian Zoubek-light like I had hoped, but he's fully capable of providing 5-10 minutes off the bench in ACC play (and, more importantly, use his 5 fouls without being a liability). That could be big, especially with Marques Bolden being one of the few disappointments from the trip. Which leads me to my final point...

5) What's up with Marques Bolden is going to continue to be a nagging storyline. It was extremely telling to me that K chose not to start Marques today, and barely played him (if at all) in the second half against U of T. It's obviously not ideal to be a true center playing against teams that don't have one in a game that's up-and-down, but Vrank was able to contribute positively while Marques did very little... and, perhaps more importantly, I saw multiple defensive possessions where he didn't seem engaged in Mississauga. The best version of this Duke team includes Marques living up to his potential in the paint, but he still has a lot of questions to answer after this trip.

A few smaller points:
—Joey Baker (or, as my wife has dubbed him, "Baby Grayson) showed serious potential, but I don't think he's ready for prime time yet. I don't think he'd provide much more than a solid corner shooter at this point. Unless AOC's injury is more serious than initially thought I imagine he'll redshirt.
—R.J. Barrett is as advertised, but he's gotta improve his shot. I imagine that'll happen with consistent practice time.
—You could really see the fact that we were missing our primary ballhandler even though R.J. and Zion showed some fantastic passing. Tre could make R.J. and Zion better, which is scary.
—I think Justin Robinson will see legit playing time in a few ACC contests this year, and could conceivably be a rotation player next year if he continues to improve (and, more importantly, gain confidence).
—This is going to be a fun year.


I think it's pretty clear that he's going to start.

For the internet's sake, and for my own sanity, I hope Joey is not baby Grayson.

weezie
08-19-2018, 05:42 PM
My takeaway is that Zion is adorable. Those dunks and rebounds and dunks and blocks and dunks are so cute!
And I'll save my impressions of his handle for the regular season.

kAzE
08-19-2018, 05:44 PM
Nice summary! I think you covered just about everything.

My two major takeaways from the trip are:

1) Zion is way better than I thought he was. I knew he was more skilled than the all dunk videos would have the general public believe, but I did not think he would be this type of defensive presence (tipped balls, deflections, and post defense), this good of a ball handler (he's a VERY good isolation player from the perimeter), this good of a layup finisher (he had to be like 90+% on layups over the 3 games), or this smart (of the main ball handlers, I thought Zion consistently made the best decisions).

To a lesser extent, he also surprised me in that he can hit outside shots. I wouldn't say it's a strength of his, but the fact that he CAN hit from outside if you leave him open is a big deal for his overall game. Zion went from the 3rd best player on this team in my mind to maybe just as good as RJ, and a candidate for ACC player of the year. He's unreal.

2) Jack White might not be the 7th or even 8th most talented player on this roster, but he might be the 6th or 7th man. Why? Because he's a perfect compliment to these unbelievable freshmen. He doesn't ever need to have the ball, plays his butt off on both ends, gets tough contested rebounds, hit open shots, and moves the ball. He's exactly who you want playing next to ball-dominant players like RJ and Zion.

I'll probably get called out for this, but I think there's a case to be made that he should play even more minutes than Alex O'Connell. Understanding that we haven't seen O'Connell at all, I just think Jack fills more holes in the lineup than O'Connell. The rebounding, the physical defense and hustle are just a really nice fit with our best players. O'Connell is the better, more talented player without a doubt, but at some point, there becomes diminishing returns on offensive talent on the floor.

I'll throw in the caveat that I could easily be very wrong about this, and Alex has improved much more than I had imagined on defense (Jordan Goldwire certainly has). That would be my only concern with him. Offensively, he's clearly superior to Jack.

hallcity
08-19-2018, 05:58 PM
At this point, it may be best to let Bolden just drift to wherever he’s going to drift without us wringing our hands over it. I don’t want to write him off but it appears that he won’t be much of a factor for this team. Sometimes things don’t work out as well in college basketball for a young man as he or we might hope. Bolden may get an earlier start to his post basketball life than someone like Barrett or Williamson but they’ll all get there eventually. He’ll probably do just fine in that life and that’s more important anyway.

Native
08-19-2018, 06:15 PM
I'll probably get called out for this, but I think there's a case to be made that he should play even more minutes than Alex O'Connell. Understanding that we haven't seen O'Connell at all, I just think Jack fills more holes in the lineup than O'Connell. The rebounding, the physical defense and hustle are just a really nice fit with our best players. O'Connell is the better, more talented player without a doubt, but at some point, there becomes diminishing returns on offensive talent on the floor.

I'll throw in the caveat that I could easily be very wrong about this, and Alex has improved much more than I had imagined on defense (Jordan Goldwire certainly has). That would be my only concern with him. Offensively, he's clearly superior to Jack.

I'd only challenge this slightly because we didn't get to see much of AOC during this trip, unfortunately, so it's hard to prognosticate. I do agree that White has improved a fair bit, and showed it — particularly against McGill. He'll definitely be a big part of our rotation. I do agree that he is a nice complement to the other ball-dominant guys on the floor; I think he and Zion make a great rebounding duo.

JNort
08-19-2018, 10:37 PM
8583

8584


Love seeing that our scoring went up after each game and the defense allowed less after each game as well. Of course it could be to diminishing talent by the opposing teams.

Also I like how our scoring in the 3rd quarter is much higher after I presume making adjustments at half.

Final thing of note for me is the amount of times RJ got to the line! I'm hoping he gets the percentage up much higher though.


If you have trouble seeing the images above here's a link to the website. Just click "season stats".

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211768616&DB_OEM_ID=4200

DukieInBrasil
08-19-2018, 11:20 PM
I was expecting Zion to be good, but the highlight videos and stat sheet made him look NPOY candidate good, caveats with level of competition apply. His ability to get by people and finish while hanging in the air is really impressive. His second jump seemed nearly as good as Bagley's (admittedly from just 2 videos). He scored a ton of points on very efficient shooting, although he went 0-5 from 3 in the last 2 games, and his FT shooting wasn't particularly great. Adding a good PG will probably make his efficiency go up, although adding 2 more top-shelf offensive options will probably make his use rate go down.
RJ looked really good in the highlight videos too, but his shooting was much less efficient. It's nice to see that both RJ and Zion seem to be willing (and pretty good) passers.
I'm glad that J-Gold got to be the "main" PG, in as much as that means anything at this time. He seemed to play pretty well, and he seems to like feeding the ball to Zion, who makes him look good.
I'm also pleased that both J-White and Javin played in a way that seemed to set the upperclassmen leadership by example motif that the very young team is going to need. Let's put J-Rob in that category too, despite less overall production. Even Vrank put up some nice stats, and if his improved physique can help him get better position and more rebounds he could have a nice impact off the bench for this team.
I too am worried about Marques and his performance. I only saw him as an on-court player in a few highlight videos, so i don't know what he looked like playing, but he hardly scored at all and not in the last 2 games. The one thing that i thought of that i kinda hope might be an explanation is when i was a Sr. in HS, winding up my All-District campaign, i really slumped in the District playoffs. My bat speed seemed really slow and my reaction time at 3rd base was slow too. I was really frustrated. About 6 hours after we lost in the Finals, i totally crashed with mono. I guess it had been building up in my body or my body just refused to give in to it until baseball was done, but it affected my play for nearly a week before it really hit me. It's just something i thought of...

Kedsy
08-20-2018, 12:53 AM
For those who believe Javin can't finish around the rim, I'd note he shot 10 for 11 (90.9%) on his two-point shots on this trip.

accfanfrom1970
08-20-2018, 06:10 AM
I would have loved to know the odds before the trip that both Justin Robinson and Joey Baker would play more minutes that Bolden...or that our highest % 3 point shooter would be Bresser...again, I think we will learn more from the Va Union game than these.

uh_no
08-20-2018, 06:33 AM
I put about as much stock into these games as I do preseason nfl. Everyone always looks great until league play.

Duke76
08-20-2018, 07:45 AM
I put about as much stock into these games as I do preseason nfl. Everyone always looks great until league play.

true....but its still great fun to get under the skin of our little carolina "buddies" and KY knuckleheads for such an extended period of time so early in the year....these video highlights will sustain us and a lot of social media basketball sites plus espn until the real season starts. i believe we learned that!

weezie
08-20-2018, 07:54 AM
I put about as much stock into these games as I do preseason nfl. Everyone always looks great until league play.

Me sainted mother used to say, "Everybody is a genius...until they take the SATs."

Indoor66
08-20-2018, 08:55 AM
Me sainted mother used to say, "Everybody is a genius...until they take the SATs."

I'll bet she learned that from her Grandma. 😂

HereBeforeCoachK
08-20-2018, 09:19 AM
I put about as much stock into these games as I do preseason nfl. Everyone always looks great until league play.

Making observations, and "putting stock into" are not exactly the same thing. Should we not have a thread on it? The fact is, your point is valid, to a point....but I think we clearly did learn a few things, or at least developed a few interesting theories.

RJ is as good as advertised.
Zion is better than advertised, with a more versatile game.
Jack White has improved greatly.
Marques has not.

dukelifer
08-20-2018, 10:21 AM
Making observations, and "putting stock into" are not exactly the same thing. Should we not have a thread on it? The fact is, your point is valid, to a point...but I think we clearly did learn a few things, or at least developed a few interesting theories.

RJ is as good as advertised.
Zion is better than advertised, with a more versatile game.
Jack White has improved greatly.
Marques has not.

I am not ready to blast Marques yet- but clearly he missed an opportunity. I would say Javin and Jordan have improved as well. As for Zion- I was really impressed with him. He is a gifted player- a great feel for the game and knows how to use that massive frame. His FT shooting is not great or inconsistent, and not sure if I trust his shot outside of 10 feet- but he can dominate at the college level. Given that Zion has mastered the scoop- maybe he should shoot FTs underhanded. RJ can do a lot on the floor. His shooting is still a work in progress- but he can bring a lot to the team and has that "I will do what it takes to win" mentality that cannot be taught. Very much looking forward to seeing how the other guys blend. This is an exceptionally good ball handling and passing team- with great length and versatility. Shooting may be their weakness but I hold out hope for Reddish and AOC to fill that void. The success of the team will depend a lot on whether the shooters can hit open shots because they will be there and also hitting FT in critical situations. FT shooting is always my worry and we will see how that part of the game goes. Excited for the season.

kAzE
08-20-2018, 10:50 AM
For those who believe Javin can't finish around the rim, I'd note he shot 10 for 11 (90.9%) on his two-point shots on this trip.

He did a nice job all-around for sure. I just wish he would go up and dunk it sometimes instead of going for those fading reverse layups. Once we're playing against better competition, those will get swatted. Javin's a big time athlete. Go up strong and throw it down, young man!

simplyluvin
08-20-2018, 10:52 AM
For those who may be interested (and want to add their own two cents!), my major takeaways from watching the two games in Mississauga from (basically, haha) courtside, and the game in Montreal from my couch in Montreal (on TSN, no ESPN+ hassle!):

1) Zion is capable of single-handedly saving us in some "trap" games this year. I don't think I need to recap what everyone else has said about Zion, but know that it's even more impressive in person. My biggest takeaway has been this: there will be teams that simply won't be able to matchup with his unique skillset this year. Some of those teams are going to be the type of teams that have, in the past couple of seasons, handed us losses in the so-called "trap" games (i.e. on the road, short-rest, after/before bigger games, etc.). I think this dynamic will be responsible for at least one additional win this year compared to the recent one-and-done era, if not more. Those "trap" losses have arguably cost us No. 1 seeds in the past few years, so those extra wins could be huge.

2) We have the potential to be a great defensive team. This has gotten lost in the shuffle considering these games have largely amounted to scrimmages/dunk contests. But I saw multiple possessions in Mississauga where Duke played great team D, including some really nice help rotations and hustle (especially from the vets). I also loved that K had them play the 2-3 for a little bit, which shows me that this is something the team will be more prepared to play at stretches this year (as opposed to having to implement it mid-season like last season). The fact that Barrett and Williamson showed defensive intensity was also extremely encouraging. I think this team has the potential to be the best defensive team we've had in the recent one-and-done era. Admittedly that isn't a huge honor, haha, but the improvement should be noticeable.

3) Javin looks like he'll get starter's minutes even if he doesn't start. I imagine we'll have games where Javin starts, games where AOC (or maybe Jack) start and we play a smaller lineup, and games where Bolden (or maybe Vrank) start for a more traditional center. But I imagine Javin will get 20-30 minutes a game regardless. His defense and ability to guard multiple positions was even more apparent during this trip, and his offensive games seems to have matured as well. He seemed much more confident with the ball in his hands around the basket during the trip, and even showed some mid-range game. Lots of people have discussed Bolden a the "x-factor" for this team... I think it could end up being if Javin fully develops into a Lance Thomas/Amile Jefferson hybrid we've been fantasizing about.

4) Jack looks ready to contribute, as does (to a slightly lesser extent) Vrank. I was super impressed by the confidence Jack displayed this trip. If there was a silver lining to AOC's injury it was the increased playing time Jack got in Canada, which I think could pay dividends in his development. The Aussie was confident rotating the ball around the perimeter and taking the open three when it came to him, and he also really contributed defensively and on the glass with some hustle plays. I think he could answer a lot of questions about our team's depth if he continues on this track. Vrank, as was discussed in some of the front page articles here, has also looked like a different player. He's never going to be Brian Zoubek-light like I had hoped, but he's fully capable of providing 5-10 minutes off the bench in ACC play (and, more importantly, use his 5 fouls without being a liability). That could be big, especially with Marques Bolden being one of the few disappointments from the trip. Which leads me to my final point...

5) What's up with Marques Bolden is going to continue to be a nagging storyline. It was extremely telling to me that K chose not to start Marques today, and barely played him (if at all) in the second half against U of T. It's obviously not ideal to be a true center playing against teams that don't have one in a game that's up-and-down, but Vrank was able to contribute positively while Marques did very little... and, perhaps more importantly, I saw multiple defensive possessions where he didn't seem engaged in Mississauga. The best version of this Duke team includes Marques living up to his potential in the paint, but he still has a lot of questions to answer after this trip.

A few smaller points:
—Joey Baker (or, as my wife has dubbed him, "Baby Grayson) showed serious potential, but I don't think he's ready for prime time yet. I don't think he'd provide much more than a solid corner shooter at this point. Unless AOC's injury is more serious than initially thought I imagine he'll redshirt.
—R.J. Barrett is as advertised, but he's gotta improve his shot. I imagine that'll happen with consistent practice time.
—You could really see the fact that we were missing our primary ballhandler even though R.J. and Zion showed some fantastic passing. Tre could make R.J. and Zion better, which is scary.
—I think Justin Robinson will see legit playing time in a few ACC contests this year, and could conceivably be a rotation player next year if he continues to improve (and, more importantly, gain confidence).
—This is going to be a fun year.

Really great summary. I'm very concerned about Marques' lack of progress. Was hoping he would make the jump this year, especially with Coach K saying he saw Marques being one of the best big men in the country.

FWIW, my other two big concerns for the year:
1. Like last year, possible lack of perimeter shooting. I'm hopeful here because we haven't seen Reddish yet, and Jack White taking an apparent step up makes me optimistic. I would love to see AOC and JW play the role of deep threat and spread the floor for us; consistent shooting from these guys would open up lanes for RJ and Zion.
2. Who gets us through the inevitable freshman wall? There is not a lot of bonafide scoring outside of our freshmen. Let's hope all 4 of our guys don't hit the wall at the same time.

Agree that this year is going to be really fun.

Acymetric
08-20-2018, 10:54 AM
Let's hope all 4 of our guys don't hit the wall at the same time.

Luckily it would probably be really tough for Zion to run into himself. Certainly a concern for the other three freshmen (and everyone else, really) though. ;)

OldPhiKap
08-20-2018, 11:01 AM
Luckily it would probably be really tough for Zion to run into himself. Certainly a concern for the other three freshmen (and everyone else, really) though. ;)

Zion doesn't hit the wall -- the wall hits Zion, and winces.

HereBeforeCoachK
08-20-2018, 12:01 PM
Zion doesn't hit the wall -- the wall hits Zion, and winces.

...cue the Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer one liners......

Truth&Justise
08-20-2018, 12:20 PM
Many good observations. I too am pretty pleasantly surprised with how well the Canada trip went, especially with so many important players unavailable. RJ Barrett looks like the real deal, and Zion Williamson is even better than advertised.

However, I did want to highlight one troubling aspect: shooting. Coming into the season it was one of our most-cited worries, that there would not be enough 3pt shooting to open up the floor for our physically impressive players. Nothing we did in Canada alleviated that concern. And in fact, there is a new fear: FT shooting.

Negatives: overall the team shot 32% from three. Not great. And if you take away Joey Baker's 5-11 shooting -- a reasonable adjustment considering many predict he won't earn significant playing time and may even redshirt -- and the team's overall 3pt shooting was under 30%. But digging deeper, it's problematic that our two dominant scorers did not shoot well from three. RJ was 6-21 (29%) and Zion was 3-9 (33%). Now 3-pt shooting is only one aspect of the game, but it's a very efficient way to score points, and the threat of good three-point shooting opens up all sorts of other positive offensive options. Falling short here means we have to be that much better in every other aspect of the game.

Even worse the team shot 55% from the free throw line. That simply won't get it done. And again, our most prolific scorers did not look good: RJ shot 16-30 (53%) and Zion shot 6-12 (50%). This is a problem itself, and also does not indicate that the poor 3pt shooting numbers for either was an aberration.

Positives: the biggest positive is that some of our best shooters didn't play. Alex O'Connell hit some timely shots last year and seems poised to lead this team in outside shooting, and Cam Reddish has the best reputation as a shooter of our 5-star wings. And while Tre Jones doesn't have the best rep as a shooter, having a true point guard on the court could open up looks for everyone. So there is hope that the return of these guys will help. Also, Jack White shot reasonably well (35%), and his 17 attempts from three signal confidence in his shot.

Takeaway: Overall the team looked good in Canada, and is poised for a good season. But shooting could remain an issue as the competition ramps up, and nothing in Canada assuaged that concern.

kAzE
08-20-2018, 12:32 PM
However, I did want to highlight one troubling aspect: shooting.

I'm not worried about the shooting. We were playing without 2 of our best shooters (Cam and Alex), and without our starting point guard, who we can reasonably expect to generate better looks for everyone else. RJ would also be in more catch and shoot situations (where he was pretty good), rather than shooting off the dribble (not as good), as he did quite often over these 3 games.

Jack and Zion are better shooters than any of us anticipated, which helps with floor spacing a lot. I really don't think shooting is going to be a problem. With 4 players capable of creating off the dribble, our shooters are going to be getting wide open looks.

The 2 major things I want to see this team improve upon are limiting turnovers and playing better defense.

jimsumner
08-20-2018, 12:39 PM
I'm not worried about the shooting. We were playing without 2 of our best shooters (Cam and Alex), and without our starting point guard, who we can reasonably expect to generate better looks for everyone else. RJ would also be in more catch and shoot situations (where he was pretty good), rather than shooting off the dribble (not as good), as he did quite often over these 3 games.

Jack and Zion are better shooters than any of us anticipated, which helps with floor spacing a lot. I really don't think shooting is going to be a problem. With 4 players capable of creating off the dribble, our shooters are going to be getting wide open looks.

The 2 major things I want to see this team improve upon are limiting turnovers and playing better defense.

I agree, with one potentially huge caveat. Barrett and Williamson were a combined 22-for-42 from the foul line. These guys are going to be at the foul line a lot this season and if they're hovering in the 50 percent range, then they're going to be leaving a lot of points at the line.

A lot.

flyingdutchdevil
08-20-2018, 12:50 PM
I agree, with one potentially huge caveat. Barrett and Williamson were a combined 22-for-42 from the foul line. These guys are going to be at the foul line a lot this season and if they're hovering in the 50 percent range, then they're going to be leaving a lot of points at the line.

A lot.

Ah yes, the well known Flay-an-RJ and Dyin'-a-Zion strategies.

kAzE
08-20-2018, 12:54 PM
Ah yes, the well known Flay-an-RJ and Dyin'-a-Zion strategies.

Hmmmm . . . the Zion one needs works :p

But yes, I agree, free throws could potentially be a problem for these two guys. Both of them shot between 60% and 70% in high school though, so while it's definitely not a strength of either guy, they SHOULD do a little better than they did in these 3 games. With the amount of time RJ and Zion spend at the free throw line, it's gotta be something they will be working on.

flyingdutchdevil
08-20-2018, 12:55 PM
Hmmmm . . . the Zion one needs works :p

But yes, I agree, this could potentially be a problem. Both guys shot between 60% and 70% in high school though, so while it's definitely not a strength of either guy, they SHOULD do better than they did in these 3 games.

Nothing works with 'ion'. I spent a solid 7 minutes on this. Would appreciate any feedback (not on the time management, on the rhyme).

jimsumner
08-20-2018, 12:56 PM
Hmmmm . . . the Zion one needs works :p

But yes, I agree, free throws could potentially be a problem for these two guys. Both of them shot between 60% and 70% in high school though, so while it's definitely not a strength of either guy, they SHOULD do better than they did in these 3 games.

Imagine how potent Duke could be if both could get in the 75-80 percent range.

proelitedota
08-20-2018, 12:56 PM
Ah yes, the well known Flay-an-RJ and Dyin'-a-Zion strategies.

Beretta a Barret and Pile on Zion.

uh_no
08-20-2018, 01:07 PM
Beretta a Barret and Pile on Zion.

épée an RJ

Kedsy
08-20-2018, 01:14 PM
...cue the Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer one liners...

I'm confused. You mean Nate James and Patrick Davidson?

Truth&Justise
08-20-2018, 01:21 PM
I'm not worried about the shooting. We were playing without 2 of our best shooters (Cam and Alex), and without our starting point guard, who we can reasonably expect to generate better looks for everyone else. RJ would also be in more catch and shoot situations (where he was pretty good), rather than shooting off the dribble (not as good), as he did quite often over these 3 games.

Jack and Zion are better shooters than any of us anticipated, which helps with floor spacing a lot. I really don't think shooting is going to be a problem. With 4 players capable of creating off the dribble, our shooters are going to be getting wide open looks.

The 2 major things I want to see this team improve upon are limiting turnovers and playing better defense.

That might not be saying much. Zion went 3-4 in the first game (great!), then 0-5 in the next two. It's a small sample size, but it doesn't really show that he's a better 3pt shooter than anticipated. Jack certainly looked more confident, but we've got to hope our best shooters are hitting better than 35%. For reference, last year Marvin Bagley hit 39% of his threes, and that still put him behind Wendell, Gary, Grayson and Alex. And yet you could legitimately make a case that a lack of 3pt threats hurt the team last year.

I agree that adding Tre will help things because, as you said, spot-up shooting is easier than shooting off the dribble. But if none of our guys are consistent threats from outside, Tre won't have a lot of room to operate. A bit of a chicken and egg problem.

I worry about outside shooting because it's an important trait--seemingly more important every year--and it will be a predicate for offensive success in other areas.

Kedsy
08-20-2018, 01:27 PM
And if you take away Joey Baker's 5-11 shooting -- a reasonable adjustment considering many predict he won't earn significant playing time and may even redshirt -- and the team's overall 3pt shooting was under 30%.

True, but if you also take away Justin Robinson's 1 for 10 (if you're not counting Joey Baker, Justin had the third-most 3-attempts on the team, something that will certainly not come close to happening during the actual season), we'd be back up to 33%, and then if you add in AOC (a good shooter), Cam (reputedly a good shooter), and Tre (supposedly a middling shooter) we'd probably be back up at least into the 35% range, maybe a little better. Still not great, or even good, but not horrific by any means.

Free throw shooting is another matter. Hopefully RJ and Zion will get up into the 60s, and AOC, Cam, and Tre will bring the team percentage into the upper 60s. It's worth noting that the 2015 team FT% was 69.7%, so it's not like upper 60s would be the kiss of death or anything.

ncexnyc
08-20-2018, 01:31 PM
My take away from the 3 games is that Zion and RJ have the physical tools to be great players. Other than that, not much else as we've got a long way to go before things get real. I'll hold off on the Kool-Aid until November roles around.

DukeFanSince1990
08-20-2018, 01:48 PM
PSA stolen from twitter

8586

whereinthehellami
08-20-2018, 01:54 PM
Interesting (to me) cumulative stats from the country that produces 80% of the world's maple syrup:

Barrett's subpar shooting %'s - 49% FG, 29% 3, 53% FT. And he was still effective. And he will only get better:)

Barrett shot 30 FT's, the same number as the rest of the team combined.

Williamson shot 65% FG, 40-62. A lot in traffic with contact.
Williamson led the team in blocks (5) and steals (7, tied with Goldwire).
Goldwire 8 Asts to 5 TOs, would have liked to see a better ratio from the backup pg against the level of competition faced.
Robinson 1-10 from 3, ouch, incoming. He had a lot of good open looks, just didn't go down:)
Besser 2-3 from 3, looked confident shooting them too!

killerleft
08-20-2018, 02:02 PM
My take away from the 3 games is that Zion and RJ have the physical tools to be great players. Other than that, not much else as we've got a long way to go before things get real. I'll hold off on the Kool-Aid until November roles around.

That's what I got, too. Our opponents were probably the least talented teams we'll face all season. Three games in August won't really help us a bit come November.

But it was fun to watch!

drummerdevil
08-20-2018, 02:06 PM
My main takeaway was that Zion Williamson did a lot of great things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLDR1PqiVWo
Outside of that, nothing much can be confirmed or denied from a Canadian game, but I will say this: so far, I have predicted that Javin would start and that Jack would be in the rotation. So far, I haven't been proven wrong. I may need to predict that we will go all the way this year.

Duke76
08-20-2018, 02:10 PM
I agree, with one potentially huge caveat. Barrett and Williamson were a combined 22-for-42 from the foul line. These guys are going to be at the foul line a lot this season and if they're hovering in the 50 percent range, then they're going to be leaving a lot of points at the line.

A lot.

will be interesting to watch how much of their free throw shooting will be "and ones", bet we might set a record on that and if so i'd say wouldn't at least those minimize the impact of poorer % at the line at least by Zion and RJ.

Troublemaker
08-20-2018, 02:13 PM
My take away from the 3 games is that Zion and RJ have the physical tools to be great players. Other than that, not much else as we've got a long way to go before things get real. I'll hold off on the Kool-Aid until November roles around.

If we're going play it conservatively -- which probably is a good idea -- I sure wouldn't pick November, though. That's the month that Duke typically excels and/or racks up wins. Last season, in November, the consensus here was that Duke was a "gutty" team (coming back from big deficits to pull out wins against good teams) and wasn't even close to reaching its ceiling and was clearly going to grow into the best team in the country. (And truth be told, it's not like we ended up having a bad season -- #3 kenpom, Elite 8 -- just not what people would've hoped for in November).

The timespan I would pick would be the first 5 ACC games. That's when recent Duke teams have struggled. Serve the Koolaid if we clean house then.


That's what I got, too. Our opponents were probably the least talented teams we'll face all season. Three games in August won't really help us a bit come November.

But it was fun to watch!

Oh, I think 3 games (and 10 practices) can't help but help the team be more prepared for the season. It's more that it's hard to quantify just how much help we will receive from this trip. But it HAS to be more than 0.

Or, put another way, Kentucky is Game #1 and they did a trip to the Bahamas. I feel much better about that game knowing that we were able to match them with a foreign trip of our own to Canda. Otherwise, I would've made Kentucky a decent favorite to win that game.

Duke76
08-20-2018, 02:17 PM
If we're going play it conservatively -- which probably is a good idea -- I sure wouldn't pick November, though. That's the month that Duke typically excels and/or racks up wins. Last season, in November, the consensus here was that Duke was a "gutty" team (coming back from big deficits to pull out wins against good teams) and wasn't even close to reaching its ceiling and was clearly going to grow into the best team in the country. (And truth be told, it's not like we ended up having a bad season -- #3 kenpom, Elite 8 -- just not what people would've hoped for in November).

The timespan I would pick would be the first 5 ACC games. That's when recent Duke teams have struggled. Serve the Koolaid if we clean house then.



Oh, I think 3 games (and 10 practices) can't help but help the team be more prepared for the season. It's more that it's hard to quantify just how much help we will receive from this trip. But it HAS to be more than 0.

Or, put another way, Kentucky is Game #1 and they did a trip to the Bahamas. I feel much better about that game knowing that we were able to match them with a foreign trip of our own to Canda. Otherwise, I would've made Kentucky a decent favorite to win that game.


wait a minute, kentucky has already gone to the Bahamas??? did they get any press at all? espn?? Jay Bilas?? nada nothing crickets that I can recall

kAzE
08-20-2018, 02:20 PM
That might not be saying much. Zion went 3-4 in the first game (great!), then 0-5 in the next two. It's a small sample size, but it doesn't really show that he's a better 3pt shooter than anticipated.

Well, okay. But I personally thought he would be a total non-shooter, so the fact that he made any 3 pointers at all was a welcome surprise for me. 33% for Zion is totally fine. It means that you still have to guard him out there. The closer opponents have to guard Zion, the easier it will be for him to blow by them, and it also means more room in the paint for everyone else.

Even if it's not a strength for him, it is a massive boon for the team's offensive spacing.

phaedrus
08-20-2018, 02:22 PM
If we're going play it conservatively -- which probably is a good idea -- I sure wouldn't pick November, though. That's the month that Duke typically excels and/or racks up wins.

Personally, I plan to refrain from The Kool-Aid until 12:01 a.m. on September 1. But not a second longer.

Indoor66
08-20-2018, 02:23 PM
PSA stolen from twitter

8586

I did that about 5:00 yesterday.😂

budwom
08-20-2018, 02:46 PM
Interesting (to me) cumulative stats from the country that produces 80% of the world's maple syrup:

71%!

fuse
08-20-2018, 02:57 PM
Nothing works with 'ion'. I spent a solid 7 minutes on this. Would appreciate any feedback (not on the time management, on the rhyme).

Zion is cryin (groan) :rolleyes:

IrishDevil
08-20-2018, 03:18 PM
Zion is cryin (groan) :rolleyes:

And now that the association has been made between Zion and cryin', I am going to hear Don McLean every time Zion posterizes an opponent.

AGDukesky
08-20-2018, 03:20 PM
[QUOTE=whereinthehellami;1085290]Interesting (to me) cumulative stats from the country that produces 80% of the world's maple syrup:

71%

Don’t forget the conversion rate...

whereinthehellami
08-20-2018, 04:07 PM
71%

Did Bilas (my reference) round up?

I don't like the UK game at all. I think they got the right mix of experience and shooting ability this year to stick it to Duke pretty good. The timing kind of stinks with Reddish and Jones trying to get get back into the fold. I know its early but my well honed basketball sixth sense starts to tingle whenever the UK game is brought up.

DukieInBrasil
08-20-2018, 04:09 PM
That might not be saying much. Zion went 3-4 in the first game (great!), then 0-5 in the next two. It's a small sample size, but it doesn't really show that he's a better 3pt shooter than anticipated. Jack certainly looked more confident, but we've got to hope our best shooters are hitting better than 35%. For reference, last year Marvin Bagley hit 39% of his threes, and that still put him behind Wendell, Gary, Grayson and Alex. And yet you could legitimately make a case that a lack of 3pt threats hurt the team last year.


Grayson shot 37% last year, which is not better than 39%. Grayson certainly seemed like he was a better shooter than 39%, but alas he was not, particularly if one of those had come in the E8 game...

dukelifer
08-20-2018, 04:33 PM
True, but if you also take away Justin Robinson's 1 for 10 (if you're not counting Joey Baker, Justin had the third-most 3-attempts on the team, something that will certainly not come close to happening during the actual season), we'd be back up to 33%, and then if you add in AOC (a good shooter), Cam (reputedly a good shooter), and Tre (supposedly a middling shooter) we'd probably be back up at least into the 35% range, maybe a little better. Still not great, or even good, but not horrific by any means.

Free throw shooting is another matter. Hopefully RJ and Zion will get up into the 60s, and AOC, Cam, and Tre will bring the team percentage into the upper 60s. It's worth noting that the 2015 team FT% was 69.7%, so it's not like upper 60s would be the kiss of death or anything.

Not the kiss of death on average- but as you know- games often come down to a few possessions and while there is a lot of variance on how one arrives at the same score late in a game- when you are tied and fouled you need to keep the pressure on and make free throws. A 65% FT shooter is a problem under this scenario. I don't think RJ and Zion are going to be money from the line late in games- so they better get fouled a lot early to soften up the D at crunch time. Time will tell how this team manages close game. I suspect they will have their share of blowouts- but you need to win a one possession game- you need someone who can hit them. We will see who that is. The two logical choices for end of the game heroics have me a bit nervous.

luvdahops
08-20-2018, 04:36 PM
And now that the association has been made between Zion and cryin', I am going to hear Don McLean every time Zion posterizes an opponent.

How about Bob Marley instead?

Iron
like a Lion
in Zion

(maybe substitute "is" for "in" for ZW)

DukieInBrasil
08-20-2018, 05:08 PM
How about Bob Marley instead?

Iron
like a Lion
in Zion

(maybe substitute "is" for "in" for ZW)

Zion train is comin' our way

Troublemaker
08-20-2018, 05:08 PM
Not the kiss of death on average- but as you know- games often come down to a few possessions and while there is a lot of variance on how one arrives at the same score late in a game- when you are tied and fouled you need to keep the pressure on and make free throws. A 65% FT shooter is a problem under this scenario. I don't think RJ and Zion are going to be money from the line late in games- so they better get fouled a lot early to soften up the D at crunch time. Time will tell how this team manages close game. I suspect they will have their share of blowouts- but you need to win a one possession game- you need someone who can hit them. We will see who that is. The two logical choices for end of the game heroics have me a bit nervous.

Why wouldn't the two logical choices be Tre and Cam, who are both around 80% FT shooters from what I can tell from googling. In 2015, we may have spent most of a game feeding big Jah (which led to him being consensus 1st team AA) but when it came time for crunch time FTs, we would try to get it to Tyus and Quinn. Same situation here, I would think. And to further the comparison, I think Tre and Cam will handle most of the PG duties for Duke this season.

Troublemaker
08-20-2018, 05:18 PM
I don't like the UK game at all. I think they got the right mix of experience and shooting ability this year to stick it to Duke pretty good. The timing kind of stinks with Reddish and Jones trying to get get back into the fold. I know its early but my well honed basketball sixth sense starts to tingle whenever the UK game is brought up.

Interesting. When it comes to the players and coaches themselves, I wouldn't be surprised if the fear factor were reversed. Not only was Calipari the coach of the U-19 USA team that RJ destroyed, but so were two possible UK starters in PJ Washington and Immanuel Quickley. (Cam Reddish was also on that team, but he now delights at being on the same team as RJ and under the warm protection of RJ's alpha-ness.) I think these UK guys cower at the thought of what Big Game Barrett will bring to the table for the Champions Classic. See, the way I imagine things, Calipari hasn't lost this much sleep over one person since when John Chaney threatened to kill him (https://vimeo.com/212279505). RJ is now his boogieman.

In any case, if you are interested in an emotional hedge for the Duke-UK game, I'll gladly bet you a pie that Duke will win. You're getting a deal as I suspect Vegas will make UK a slight favorite. Whaddya say?

MartyClark
08-20-2018, 05:27 PM
Zion train is comin' our way

Yeah, I'm liking the "Z Train". People get ready, there's a train a comin'.

HereBeforeCoachK
08-20-2018, 06:18 PM
Grayson shot 37% last year, which is not better than 39%. Grayson certainly seemed like he was a better shooter than 39%, but alas he was not, particularly if one of those had come in the E8 game...

Grayson's 3 point shot seemed to peak early, against Michigan State. VERY early.

dukelifer
08-20-2018, 08:30 PM
Why wouldn't the two logical choices be Tre and Cam, who are both around 80% FT shooters from what I can tell from googling. In 2015, we may have spent most of a game feeding big Jah (which led to him being consensus 1st team AA) but when it came time for crunch time FTs, we would try to get it to Tyus and Quinn. Same situation here, I would think. And to further the comparison, I think Tre and Cam will handle most of the PG duties for Duke this season.

Very possible. Again I think this team will be one of the better ball handling teams that Duke has had in a very long time. The end of the game shot may end up in Barrett’s hands- but time will tell. They are all willing passers.

Furniture
08-20-2018, 11:10 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/DwyaneWade/status/1031554135567597570

Dwade is excited about our boys...So is his son....

Troublemaker
08-21-2018, 07:39 AM
Very possible. Again I think this team will be one of the better ball handling teams that Duke has had in a very long time. The end of the game shot may end up in Barrett’s hands- but time will tell. They are all willing passers.

Okay, I misread your previous post. I thought you were talking about salting away a game with FTs, i.e. we have a small lead and know the opponent will foul.

I agree that in a one-possession or tied ballgame, RJ or Zion will mostly likely be counted on to get the bucket. But I think I would look forward to that situation, though, to see what they would accomplish in that situation, and I would expect success more often than not. Different strokes for different folks.

devildeac
08-21-2018, 07:55 AM
Steve Wiseman has a nice summary in the Raleigh N&O this AM:

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article216997800.html

whereinthehellami
08-21-2018, 08:33 AM
In any case, if you are interested in an emotional hedge for the Duke-UK game, I'll gladly bet you a pie that Duke will win. You're getting a deal as I suspect Vegas will make UK a slight favorite. Whaddya say?

Tempting bet because I do think I would be enjoying a nice pie but I don't bet against Duke. I like the Barrett big game angle but think that UK has the size and agility to take away a lot of his penetration. Keldon Johnson in particular is that kind of athlete.

I also think that Coach Cal and BBN wants this game at a level that is almost unhealthy. Not that Duke doesn't want it bad but I think Cal and BBN are playing as a slighted underdog. will Duke be as ready as a team with the injuries situation?

dukelifer
08-21-2018, 09:55 AM
Okay, I misread your previous post. I thought you were talking about salting away a game with FTs, i.e. we have a small lead and know the opponent will foul.

I agree that in a one-possession or tied ballgame, RJ or Zion will mostly likely be counted on to get the bucket. But I think I would look forward to that situation, though, to see what they would accomplish in that situation, and I would expect success more often than not. Different strokes for different folks.

One thing that was clear- you need a lot to foul Zion and not have him score around the hoop. But there will be games where Zion will be fouled away from the bucket. His stroke is not awful but a bit flat. If he can improve there- he can make a living from the line.

luvdahops
08-21-2018, 09:57 AM
Zion train is comin' our way

That works, too :)

HereBeforeCoachK
08-21-2018, 10:14 AM
One thing that was clear- you need a lot to foul Zion and not have him score around the hoop. But there will be games where Zion will be fouled away from the bucket. His stroke is not awful but a bit flat. If he can improve there- he can make a living from the line.

Yes, with his power, he could end up on the line a ton......a chance to really ring up the points.

Indoor66
08-21-2018, 10:15 AM
Ion (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ion) Zion

Troublemaker
08-21-2018, 12:04 PM
Tempting bet because I do think I would be enjoying a nice pie but I don't bet against Duke.

Well, you wouldn't have to actually root against Duke if you bet against us. You'd still still root for Duke to win the game but you get a nice consolation prize if Duke happens to lose. It's not quite a win/win situation but a win/not-as-bad-a-loss situation. An emotional hedge.

And if Duke does happen to win, all it costs you was a pie. Surely you would pay the cost of a pie to see Duke win - essentially how one might think about it.


I like the Barrett big game angle but think that UK has the size and agility to take away a lot of his penetration. Keldon Johnson in particular is that kind of athlete.

I like what I've read about KelJo and think he could be a lottery pick, but oof, I don't think he'll be taking away much of RJ's penetration. Especially if we continue to run that at times beautiful 5-out motion offense we ran in Canada with all the screening and cutting flowing from one action to the next, taking away RJ's penetration will be one of the toughest tasks in college basketball this season.



I also think that Coach Cal and BBN wants this game at a level that is almost unhealthy. Not that Duke doesn't want it bad but I think Cal and BBN are playing as a slighted underdog. will Duke be as ready as a team with the injuries situation?

I agree that Cal and their fans will want to win this game badly due to the losses to us on the recruiting trail, but it's unclear to me whether that will help or hurt their cause. I could certainly see UK coming out tight.

And Duke has two months and two exhibition games to integrate Tre and Cam. Knock on wood, but I don't think their injuries will be a factor in the outcome of that game.

budwom
08-21-2018, 01:12 PM
I don't much care about early season games, but losing to KY early in the season could be beneficial for a possible much later in the season matchup.

OldPhiKap
08-21-2018, 01:19 PM
I don't much care about early season games, but losing to KY early in the season could be beneficial for a possible much later in the season matchup.

It will still be the middle of football season, for Pete's sake. I don't care how much Ky fans want to beat us -- I just don't really give that much of a rip although winning is always better than losing.

As long as we stay healthy, I'm good.

whereinthehellami
08-21-2018, 01:19 PM
Well, you wouldn't have to actually root against Duke if you bet against us. You'd still still root for Duke to win the game but you get a nice consolation prize if Duke happens to lose. It's not quite a win/win situation but a win/not-as-bad-a-loss situation. An emotional hedge.

And if Duke does happen to win, all it costs you was a pie. Surely you would pay the cost of a pie to see Duke win - essentially how one might think about it.



I like what I've read about KelJo and think he could be a lottery pick, but oof, I don't think he'll be taking away much of RJ's penetration. Especially if we continue to run that at times beautiful 5-out motion offense we ran in Canada with all the screening and cutting flowing from one action to the next, taking away RJ's penetration will be one of the toughest tasks in college basketball this season.



I agree that Cal and their fans will want to win this game badly due to the losses to us on the recruiting trail, but it's unclear to me whether that will help or hurt their cause. I could certainly see UK coming out tight.

And Duke has two months and two exhibition games to integrate Tre and Cam. Knock on wood, but I don't think their injuries will be a factor in the outcome of that game.

You are doing a good job of convincing me not to do the pie bet. How much better is Barrett, Williamson, and Reddish (maybe) than the top UK players? I'm thinking that as the season goes on the difference becomes greater but for the first game of the season I'm not sure it will be enough. It is going to be interesting/fun (hopefully) to see.

Thanks for the Chaney link, that never gets old. I like how Cal faked the hold be back move. He wanted nothing to do with Chaney and I don't blame him.

kAzE
08-21-2018, 01:53 PM
Speak for yourselves, this UK game is huge for me. I grew up as a Duke fan in Lexington :)

I'd have to block half of my friends' texts for months if Duke lost.

I am pretty nervous about their experienced front court. If Bolden isn't able to have a positive presence in this game, I'm worried that Javin will get in foul trouble, and we'd have a lot of trouble containing the Travis/Washington/Richards trio.

Our freshmen are extremely talented, but Kentucky is much deeper than we are, so we have to avoid a battle of attrition at all costs. We have to defend without fouling and keep their shooters in check. Someone will have to be in Tyler Herro's jersey all game long.

The outcome of this game seems like a coin flip right now. We really need Bolden to figure things out. We don't have another guy who can do the things he does when he's playing well. Against UK, his immense size and length will be a huge asset if he can give us some good minutes.

Troublemaker
08-21-2018, 02:06 PM
I don't much care about early season games, but losing to KY early in the season could be beneficial for a possible much later in the season matchup.

Unless the loss knocks us down a seed line, and we end up having to play 1-seed UK in a regional final in Louisville. Yikes!

The difference between a 1 seed and 2 seed often comes down to one or two results. It's not the end of the world if we lose to UK in the season opener, but as usual, I highly recommend winning.

(Note: Having the Final Four be in an "-apolis" this upcoming season is obviously sweet, though.)

https://i.imgur.com/WHZQQNV.png

Rich
08-21-2018, 03:01 PM
(Note: Having the Final Four be in an "-apolis" this upcoming season is obviously sweet, though.)

Please tell me you didn't just jinx the entire season!

CoBlueDevil
08-21-2018, 05:36 PM
I know people have mixed feelings about this podcast, mainly because Frazier is a complete UNC homer, but they dedicated a complete podcast to Duke, and the Canada tour, and Zion/RJ, etc.. It's entertaining. I always take their Duke hatred/praise with a grain of salt, but wanted to throw this out there.

Link; https://www.theringer.com/2018/8/21/17765360/duke-blue-devils-college-basketball

cato
08-21-2018, 07:53 PM
I always take their Duke hatred/praise with a grain of salt, but wanted to throw this out there.

Link; https://www.theringer.com/2018/8/21/17765360/duke-blue-devils-college-basketball

To avoid a clicked link I regret: is there Duke hatred that requires this be taken with a grain of salt/malt?

kAzE
08-21-2018, 08:48 PM
I know people have mixed feelings about this podcast, mainly because Frazier is a complete UNC homer, but they dedicated a complete podcast to Duke, and the Canada tour, and Zion/RJ, etc.. It's entertaining. I always take their Duke hatred/praise with a grain of salt, but wanted to throw this out there.

Link; https://www.theringer.com/2018/8/21/17765360/duke-blue-devils-college-basketball

Listened to about 3/4 of it before I had to turn it off . . . it's just a bunch of uninformed trash talk about Duke and Coach K . . . neither of them watched the games very closely at all (somebody should tell these guys Mike Buckmire is not a center, and I don't know how you could mistake him for one), and their analysis was total garbage compared to 90% of the posts on this message board. For example, they dedicate like 10 minutes of the show to discussing whether or not Zion is fat. Seriously. High level content there.

I actually did enjoy this podcast last year when I listened to it during the tournament, but this particular episode was awful . . . do yourself a favor and skip it . . .

There's a new DBR pod episode today. Much better use of your time.

brevity
08-22-2018, 02:32 AM
For example, they dedicate like 10 minutes of the show to discussing whether or not Zion is fat.

Actually, I might be interested in that discussion. As some in DBR Chat are aware, I have a pet theory that Coach K has a secret "No Fatties" policy. Whether or not such a policy exists, it's moot here; we can already tell Zion Williamson transcends the concept of weight.

dukelifer
08-22-2018, 06:36 AM
Actually, I might be interested in that discussion. As some in DBR Chat are aware, I have a pet theory that Coach K has a secret "No Fatties" policy. Whether or not such a policy exists, it's moot here; we can already tell Zion Williamson transcends the concept of weight.

If anything- K wants his players to have endurance. I saw no signs that Zion is not fit. He is an extraordinary athlete. It will be interesting to see how these guys perform in back to back games.

Billy Dat
08-22-2018, 09:26 AM
I know people have mixed feelings about this podcast, mainly because Frazier is a complete UNC homer, but they dedicated a complete podcast to Duke, and the Canada tour, and Zion/RJ, etc.. It's entertaining. I always take their Duke hatred/praise with a grain of salt, but wanted to throw this out there.

Link; https://www.theringer.com/2018/8/21/17765360/duke-blue-devils-college-basketball

I have come around to enjoying the Duke bashing on this podcast. If you derive any enjoyment from "hate watching" the televised news programs produced by the opposition (Fox News or MSNBC depending on your preference) just to experience their completely biased takes, then "One Shining Podcast" is a must listen for Duke fans, especially an episode like this one. Tate Frazier is a hawker for Carolina, and delights in coming up with anti-Duke takes...some of which are reasonable, most of which are conspiracy-theory level ravings. Titus knows that Duke is good for business and fans the flames, or calls Frazier out on his lack of perspective. Now that I think about it, if you are the type who goes to "Inside Carolina" for just this kind of thing, then listening to this pod is a must.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-22-2018, 09:46 AM
I have no problem listening to people begrudgingly respect Duke despite their tendencies

Billy Dat
08-22-2018, 09:59 AM
I have no problem listening to people begrudgingly respect Duke despite their tendencies

The other piece of Tate Frazier that is highly entertaining is his hagiography of the Carolina program. Toward the end of the Duke talk, he pivots to placing Duke and Kentucky on one end of the college basketball continuum and Villanova and Carolina on the other - the Nova/Heel end being the one that is about developing players and winning championships while the Duke/UK end is about helping players get to the NBA and develop their brand.

Rich
08-22-2018, 12:22 PM
The other piece of Tate Frazier that is highly entertaining is his hagiography of the Carolina program. Toward the end of the Duke talk, he pivots to placing Duke and Kentucky on one end of the college basketball continuum and Villanova and Carolina on the other - the Nova/Heel end being the one that is about developing players and winning championships while the Duke/UK end is about helping players get to the NBA and develop their brand.

I am quite sure there are a number of DBR folks who subscribe to that point of view.

HereBeforeCoachK
08-22-2018, 12:29 PM
The other piece of Tate Frazier that is highly entertaining is his hagiography of the Carolina program. Toward the end of the Duke talk, he pivots to placing Duke and Kentucky on one end of the college basketball continuum and Villanova and Carolina on the other - the Nova/Heel end being the one that is about developing players and winning championships while the Duke/UK end is about helping players get to the NBA and develop their brand.

Interesting....I wonder how many of Kentucky and Duke's OAD's has Roy tried like heck to get? Nova, same question (I think less than Roy).

rsvman
08-22-2018, 01:10 PM
The other piece of Tate Frazier that is highly entertaining is his hagiography of the Carolina program. Toward the end of the Duke talk, he pivots to placing Duke and Kentucky on one end of the college basketball continuum and Villanova and Carolina on the other - the Nova/Heel end being the one that is about developing players and winning championships while the Duke/UK end is about helping players get to the NBA and develop their brand.

Good news is that our one-and-dones get a better education than their 4-year players.

Troublemaker
08-22-2018, 01:11 PM
The other piece of Tate Frazier that is highly entertaining is his hagiography of the Carolina program. Toward the end of the Duke talk, he pivots to placing Duke and Kentucky on one end of the college basketball continuum and Villanova and Carolina on the other - the Nova/Heel end being the one that is about developing players and winning championships while the Duke/UK end is about helping players get to the NBA and develop their brand.


I am quite sure there are a number of DBR folks who subscribe to that point of view.

Sure, but without any real basis in reality. Duke and UK won titles in 2015 and 2012, and both seemingly have championship contenders this upcoming season while Nova and UNC are probably a notch or two below them.

Moreover, while I can't speak to UK's roster, I know that I was very proud to see the development displayed by Javin, Jack, and JGold on the Canada trip. Alex unfortunately got injured, but according to Coach K, he has improved a lot since last season, and I look forward to seeing that on display when he returns from injury.

Duke fans still get to watch 3-4 year players develop over time. It's just that those players will mostly be role players nowadays (although Alex could turn out to be more than that when he's a junior and senior).

elvis14
08-22-2018, 05:28 PM
I am quite sure there are a number of DBR folks who subscribe to that point of view.

I think you can find a number of DBR folks who are frustrated with the OAD players and are looking forward to the rules changing. I doubt you'll find too many of us that think UNCheat is about developing players and winning championships any more than Meredith College's Football team. There's a difference between developing players and holding them back and as someone else already mentioned, it's not as if they planned to have multi-year players, they just weren't able to land any top level players because they are cheaters. They recruited OAD players as hard as they could with no intention of having a system of development any more than Duke or UK. Sadly, they were able to bridge the gap by holding players back multiple years. Some because they didn't develop (ironic) and some because they were likely duped.

9F [redacted] those cheating [redacted] and they myth that they develop jack [redacted]

UrinalCake
08-22-2018, 05:43 PM
Podcast apparently forgets that Villanova just put four underclassmen in the NBA draft - more than Duke!

MartyClark
08-22-2018, 06:11 PM
I enjoyed watching all three games with my [U]free subscription to ESPN+.

Zion and R.J. looked great.

Personally, I would have liked to see Duke schedule some better competition. I know the extra practice time is valuable but I'm skeptical about how valuable the game time was against inferior opponents. I'm not sure why they didn't schedule Carlton (sp) but it may have been a more competitive game.

So here I am, second guessing K. He's not perfect but knows best.

Go Duke. It should be a very interesting season.

flyingdutchdevil
08-22-2018, 06:31 PM
1) Zion is soooooooooo much better than advertised. He will not be the true alpha-dog on this team. But he brings more to the table than I thought. I thought he was a glorified athletic dunker but he showed solid flashes of playmaking, defense, and rebounding (okay, excellent rebounding).

2) RJ is D. Wade. I think they're games are similar, and I think RJ can be as good as Wade in the mid-range. Also, both cannot shoot.

3) Speaking of shooting, I hope Alex, Tre, and Cam can shoot the 3, because the team out there was just bad at shooting the tre. It's not just the stats, but the stats against this inferior of competition. Shot selection wasn't great, but there were a ton of missed opportunities.

4) DeLaurier was awesome. This is player development! If DeLaurier can keep his fouls down (which he did in Canada), he is such a great player to have: doesn't need the ball, plays amazing defense, vocal on D, etc. He still can't shoot to save his life, but we don't need him to.

5) Bolden wasn't awesome. Nuff said.

6) With two alpha dogs, maybe a calmer Cam isn't such a bad thing. How many alpha dogs do you really need? RJ will be alpha #1, Zion will be alpha #2, Tre will be playmaker #1, Cam will be playmaker #1/jack-of-all-trades #1, and DeLaurier is jack-of-all-trades #2. Interesting team to have.

dukelifer
08-22-2018, 07:39 PM
1) Zion is soooooooooo much better than advertised. He will not be the true alpha-dog on this team. But he brings more to the table than I thought. I thought he was a glorified athletic dunker but he showed solid flashes of playmaking, defense, and rebounding (okay, excellent rebounding).

2) RJ is D. Wade. I think they're games are similar, and I think RJ can be as good as Wade in the mid-range. Also, both cannot shoot.

3) Speaking of shooting, I hope Alex, Tre, and Cam can shoot the 3, because the team out there was just bad at shooting the tre. It's not just the stats, but the stats against this inferior of competition. Shot selection wasn't great, but there were a ton of missed opportunities.

4) DeLaurier was awesome. This is player development! If DeLaurier can keep his fouls down (which he did in Canada), he is such a great player to have: doesn't need the ball, plays amazing defense, vocal on D, etc. He still can't shoot to save his life, but we don't need him to.

5) Bolden wasn't awesome. Nuff said.

6) With two alpha dogs, maybe a calmer Cam isn't such a bad thing. How many alpha dogs do you really need? RJ will be alpha #1, Zion will be alpha #2, Tre will be playmaker #1, Cam will be playmaker #1/jack-of-all-trades #1, and DeLaurier is jack-of-all-trades #2. Interesting team to have.

If Cam can shoot it from deep- he will have a big role. This team has 4 willing passers and good to excellent ball handlers. That will be fun to watch.

cato
08-22-2018, 07:45 PM
6) With two alpha dogs, maybe a calmer Cam isn't such a bad thing. How many alpha dogs do you really need? RJ will be alpha #1, Zion will be alpha #2.

I’ll admit that the exhibition games did not hold my attention very long, but from what I did see, Zion isn’t going to be #2 to anyone.

I mean, you don’t dunk from the foul line, viciously, unless you mean it.

Zion means it.

Troublemaker
08-22-2018, 07:55 PM
I enjoyed watching all three games with my [U]free subscription to ESPN+.

Zion and R.J. looked great.

Personally, I would have liked to see Duke schedule some better competition. I know the extra practice time is valuable but I'm skeptical about how valuable the game time was against inferior opponents. I'm not sure why they didn't schedule Carlton (sp) but it may have been a more competitive game.

So here I am, second guessing K. He's not perfect but knows best.

Go Duke. It should be a very interesting season.

You're looking at this too narrowly. This Canada trip was the very first time this Duke team played together against an opposing team. The coaches got to see for the first time how the team handled consuming and executing a scouting report, watching game film, on the court reacting and adapting to strategies they hadn't played against before, and seeing how the players interacted with each other, who would take leadership roles, who would step up their play or regress. Those 3 games were very valuable regardless of margin of victory. And this all happened in August.

Also, it's not like they knew for certain beforehand that Duke would thump these teams, especially with Tre Jones out. That's part of the finding out process.

dukelifer
08-22-2018, 09:32 PM
You're looking at this too narrowly. This Canada trip was the very first time this Duke team played together against an opposing team. The coaches got to see for the first time how the team handled consuming and executing a scouting report, watching game film, on the court reacting and adapting to strategies they hadn't played against before, and seeing how the players interacted with each other, who would take leadership roles, who would step up their play or regress. Those 3 games were very valuable regardless of margin of victory. And this all happened in August.

Also, it's not like they knew for certain beforehand that Duke would thump these teams, especially with Tre Jones out. That's part of the finding out process.

I agree that these were valuable games. There is nothing like playing another team- even if the team is overmatched. I did not see anything that suggested that these teams were poorly coached. Many players had 4 or 5 years of experience. Duke got better and the film studies alone will provide important lessons about spacing and defense.

UrinalCake
08-22-2018, 09:40 PM
2) RJ is D. Wade. I think they're games are similar, and I think RJ can be as good as Wade in the mid-range. Also, both cannot shoot.


I think Wade was more athletic than Barrett. He was injured so often, but a healthy Wade at his peak was truly an elite athlete, up there with someone like John Wall. Barrett isn't at that level but he is a bit bigger and longer and is so fluid and efficient in his movement that he gets by his defender so effortlessly. Both make their living driving to the basket and finishing. If Barrett can get the same whistle that Wade got that year he won it all with Shaq, we'll be in good shape :D

fraggler
08-22-2018, 10:08 PM
I think Wade was more athletic than Barrett. He was injured so often, but a healthy Wade at his peak was truly an elite athlete, up there with someone like John Wall. Barrett isn't at that level but he is a bit bigger and longer and is so fluid and efficient in his movement that he gets by his defender so effortlessly. Both make their living driving to the basket and finishing. If Barrett can get the same whistle that Wade got that year he won it all with Shaq, we'll be in good shape :D

Assuming he shoots better than 55% for those free throws...

DukeDevil
08-23-2018, 06:54 AM
I just had to put this here. Barrett is not a small guy and Zion is twice as wide as him. My brain has trouble accepting his size/athleticism/fluidity/stamina.
8589

There’s a lot of good players out there, but there’s not a ton who put butts in seats simply with their presence, regardless of wins/losses. If he weren’t already so highly regarded and sure to go high I’d be sure someone would pick him up early in the draft for that attribute alone.

CDu
08-23-2018, 08:03 AM
I think Wade was more athletic than Barrett. He was injured so often, but a healthy Wade at his peak was truly an elite athlete, up there with someone like John Wall. Barrett isn't at that level but he is a bit bigger and longer and is so fluid and efficient in his movement that he gets by his defender so effortlessly. Both make their living driving to the basket and finishing. If Barrett can get the same whistle that Wade got that year he won it all with Shaq, we'll be in good shape :D

I think Barrett is close enough athletically. Where the comp breaks down for me a bit is in ballhandling. Wade was terrific on the dribble, whereas that is not a strength for Barrett. Barrett is a capable dribbler, but far from superlative. I think Wade was a bit better midrange shooter as well.

subzero02
08-23-2018, 09:44 AM
I think Barrett is close enough athletically. Where the comp breaks down for me a bit is in ballhandling. Wade was terrific on the dribble, whereas that is not a strength for Barrett. Barrett is a capable dribbler, but far from superlative. I think Wade was a bit better midrange shooter as well.

If Barrett can put up shooting stats comparable to the ones Wade put up in his two years of play, we will be very happy. Wade was academically ineligible to play during his true freshman season. Over the two seasons that he did play for Marquette, Wade shot 51.2% from the field, 33.3% from 3 and 74.5% from the foul line. He also averaged 3.9 assists per game and 2.3 steals. IMO, Wade was significantly more athletic than Barrett. He possessed superior straight ahead speed and leaping ability. During his prime, I would have listed Wade amongst the 10 most athletic players in the NBA. I don't think Barrett would come close to achieving that status in any of the years that Wade has played professionally.

Billy Dat
08-23-2018, 12:56 PM
If Barrett can put up shooting stats comparable to the ones Wade put up in his two years of play, we will be very happy. Wade was academically ineligible to play during his true freshman season. Over the two seasons that he did play for Marquette, Wade shot 51.2% from the field, 33.3% from 3 and 74.5% from the foul line. He also averaged 3.9 assists per game and 2.3 steals. IMO, Wade was significantly more athletic than Barrett. He possessed superior straight ahead speed and leaping ability. During his prime, I would have listed Wade amongst the 10 most athletic players in the NBA. I don't think Barrett would come close to achieving that status in any of the years that Wade has played professionally.

I don't think of Wade when I see Barrett, either. Physically they are different...RJ is a few inches taller and leaner. Wade was like a running back, explosive and muscular. I think RJ is more like an alpha version of DeMare DeRozan.

budwom
08-23-2018, 01:42 PM
I'm looking forward to the season, so many variables (health, leadership, shooting, chemistry, etc, etc) but my takeaways from the tour are as follows:

Kedsy
08-23-2018, 01:55 PM
I'm looking forward to the season, so many variables (health, leadership, shooting, chemistry, etc, etc) but my takeaways from the tour are as follows:

Hard to argue with that.

jimsumner
08-23-2018, 02:05 PM
I'm looking forward to the season, so many variables (health, leadership, shooting, chemistry, etc, etc) but my takeaways from the tour are as follows:

Buddy has always placed a premium on succinctness.

budwom
08-23-2018, 02:21 PM
Making assumptions about this season after the Canada tour is kind of like making football assumptions after the NCCU game (which I am thrilled is not the first game this year. The first three games will be meaningful in 2018.

Indoor66
08-23-2018, 03:41 PM
Buddy has always placed a premium on succinctness.

...And he doesn't say too much, either.

Troublemaker
08-23-2018, 04:10 PM
The idea that we learned nothing from this trip seems kind of silly to me.

But we can easily put this to the test in a fun way. Over the next few days, I'll put together a list of 10 things I think I learned from this trip. And to be fair, they will be 10 things that I came to realize as a result of the 3 games I saw and not something that was commonly assumed before the trip. So, for example, I will NOT predict that RJ will be a starter and be one of our leading scorers. But I might predict that Javin will be a starter, for example.

Then, we can check back at the end of the season to see how many I get right. I'll bet a pie that at least 7 of my 10 things will be accurate.

(I don't have to be the only one who plays this game. The more people who come up with predictions, the more fun it will be when we check back at the end of the season to eat crow or earn praise.)

dukelifer
08-23-2018, 04:53 PM
The idea that we learned nothing from this trip seems kind of silly to me.

But we can easily put this to the test in a fun way. Over the next few days, I'll put together a list of 10 things I think I learned from this trip. And to be fair, they will be 10 things that I came to realize as a result of the 3 games I saw and not something that was commonly assumed before the trip. So, for example, I will NOT predict that RJ will be a starter and be one of our leading scorers. But I might predict that Javin will be a starter, for example.

Then, we can check back at the end of the season to see how many I get right. I'll bet a pie that at least 7 of my 10 things will be accurate.

(I don't have to be the only one who plays this game. The more people who come up with predictions, the more fun it will be when we check back at the end of the season to eat crow or earn praise.)

Sure- I will start mine with a fairly bold one- Jack White will have at least one double double during the season.

flyingdutchdevil
08-23-2018, 06:22 PM
The idea that we learned nothing from this trip seems kind of silly to me.

But we can easily put this to the test in a fun way. Over the next few days, I'll put together a list of 10 things I think I learned from this trip. And to be fair, they will be 10 things that I came to realize as a result of the 3 games I saw and not something that was commonly assumed before the trip. So, for example, I will NOT predict that RJ will be a starter and be one of our leading scorers. But I might predict that Javin will be a starter, for example.

Then, we can check back at the end of the season to see how many I get right. I'll bet a pie that at least 7 of my 10 things will be accurate.

(I don't have to be the only one who plays this game. The more people who come up with predictions, the more fun it will be when we check back at the end of the season to eat crow or earn praise.)

I'll be your first opponent if your predictions are risky enough (and I've already penciled Javin as the starter from Day 1).

Now, it you say, "Zion will have the highest 3pt shooting % amongst the starters", I'll bite. ;)