PDA

View Full Version : WFU asst. basketball coach arrested for assault



diablesseblu
08-09-2018, 06:21 PM
Jamill Jones turned himself in and is charged with assault. The victim later died so the charges may change. I had followed the news of this crime, and while pleased they've found the guy, am astonished by this.

https://nypost.com/2018/08/09/wake-forest-basketball-coach-charged-in-deadly-queens-attack-on-tourist/

dudog84
08-09-2018, 06:30 PM
Jamill Jones turned himself in and is charged with assault. The victim later died so the charges may change. I had followed the news of this crime, and while pleased they've found the guy, am astonished by this.

https://nypost.com/2018/08/09/wake-forest-basketball-coach-charged-in-deadly-queens-attack-on-tourist/

And this is why Dean Wormer's words to Flounder still resonate today...and I'm not talking about the Wake Forest coach.

I know this is serious, but is anyone else amused at how the link was shorthanded/abbreviated?

WakeDevil
08-09-2018, 10:05 PM
Involuntary manslaughter.

A man is banging on your car. Ask him to stop. Now you have ruined your life because you are unable to control your temper.

BD80
08-09-2018, 10:47 PM
Involuntary manslaughter.

A man is banging on your car. Ask him to stop. Now you have ruined your life because you are unable to control your temper.

A drunk man. Who punched the first person who tried to get him to stop banging on cars. Seems reasonable to be defensive when attempting to be the second person to try to stop him from banging on your family's car.

Sad. But interested to hear how this works out.

sagegrouse
08-09-2018, 11:10 PM
A drunk man. Who punched the first person who tried to get him to stop banging on cars. Seems reasonable to be defensive when attempting to be the second person to try to stop him from banging on your family's car.

Sad. But interested to hear how this works out.

Some sympathy for Coach Jones.

cato
08-09-2018, 11:35 PM
A drunk man. Who punched the first person who tried to get him to stop banging on cars. Seems reasonable to be defensive when attempting to be the second person to try to stop him from banging on your family's car.

Sad. But interested to hear how this works out.

Obvious, but: everything will turn on the specific facts.

subzero02
08-10-2018, 12:55 AM
Obvious, but: everything will turn on the specific facts.

I am surprised there isn't video of the punches. All we see is the coach walking away. Testimony from the first man who was punched will be critical.

Natty_B
08-10-2018, 07:00 AM
A drunk man. Who punched the first person who tried to get him to stop banging on cars. Seems reasonable to be defensive when attempting to be the second person to try to stop him from banging on your family's car.

Sad. But interested to hear how this works out.

Punching somebody so hard they smash their head on pavement and die shortly afterward doesn’t ever seem “reasonable” to me. Victim was 35 and at his stepsisters wedding just tragic.

Spanarkel
08-10-2018, 07:27 AM
Some further information on the case(not much more):

https://www.journalnow.com/news/local/wake-forest-assistant-basketball-coach-charged-in-n-y-tourist/article_52d5cca2-4d0e-5b4c-80b5-f0eedbf25a98.html

HereBeforeCoachK
08-10-2018, 08:23 AM
Punching somebody so hard they smash their head on pavement and die shortly afterward doesn’t ever seem “reasonable” to me. Victim was 35 and at his stepsisters wedding just tragic.

Well I don't think we should assume direct causality 100% here based on the force of the punch. The punch was what it was, but what other factors were there that caused the collision between head and pavement to be so violent? The vic clearly had impaired balance. Was there something else to trip over? etc. Did the vic had some prior head trauma that left him vulnerable. Not defending anything here, just saying that there is not necessarily direct 100% causation between the force of fist hitting head and then the force of the head hitting ground. There may be...but we don't have the info to make that judgment yet.

tteettimes
08-10-2018, 08:48 AM
Punching somebody so hard they smash their head on pavement and die shortly afterward doesn’t ever seem “reasonable” to me. Victim was 35 and at his stepsisters wedding just tragic.

I’ve seen John Wayne do that many many times

OldPhiKap
08-10-2018, 09:03 AM
I’ve seen John Wayne do that many many times

I saw Mongo deck a horse.

Bluedog
08-10-2018, 09:20 AM
Well I don't think we should assume direct causality 100% here based on the force of the punch. The punch was what it was, but what other factors were there that caused the collision between head and pavement to be so violent? The vic clearly had impaired balance. Was there something else to trip over? etc. Did the vic had some prior head trauma that left him vulnerable. Not defending anything here, just saying that there is not necessarily direct 100% causation between the force of fist hitting head and then the force of the head hitting ground. There may be...but we don't have the info to make that judgment yet.

If somebody aggressively shoves somebody causing them to trip on a rock and then they hit their head and die, from a legal standpoint, did the shove cause the death? I honestly don't know, but I'd think involuntary manslaughter is possible. Lawyers on the board I'm sure could provide more details. The theotetical shove I mentioned above clearly didn't cause the death directly, but it did indirectly.

Based on what little facts we know, seems clear that he didn't intend to kill the victim and was responding to aggression on the victim's part too, but I don't know if that changes the legal situation all that much besides the "intent" part. You can accidentally hurt somebody but that doesn't mean it wasn't your fault.

Just a sad situation all around for everybody involved....

ehdg
08-10-2018, 10:04 AM
Once again proves the old adage that nothing good happens out after midnight. Sadly folks don't seem to learn the damn lesson that the later your out the more chances for bad things to occur. This is just a tragic story for all involved.

OldPhiKap
08-10-2018, 10:28 AM
If somebody aggressively shoves somebody causing them to trip on a rock and then they hit their head and die, from a legal standpoint, did the shove cause the death? I honestly don't know, but I'd think involuntary manslaughter is possible. Lawyers on the board I'm sure could provide more details. The theotetical shove I mentioned above clearly didn't cause the death directly, but it did indirectly.

Based on what little facts we know, seems clear that he didn't intend to kill the victim and was responding to aggression on the victim's part too, but I don't know if that changes the legal situation all that much besides the "intent" part. You can accidentally hurt somebody but that doesn't mean it wasn't your fault.

Just a sad situation all around for everybody involved...

You would be the legal cause of the death. (And the tort).

Whether it is murder or manslaughter is a matter of intent (malice aforethought).

I think. It's been 30 years since crim law.

HereBeforeCoachK
08-10-2018, 10:33 AM
You would be the legal cause of the death. (And the tort).

Whether it is murder or manslaughter is a matter of intent (malice aforethought).

I think. It's been 30 years since crim law.

What if it's ruled self defense?

Acymetric
08-10-2018, 10:36 AM
A drunk man. Who punched the first person who tried to get him to stop banging on cars. Seems reasonable to be defensive when attempting to be the second person to try to stop him from banging on your family's car.

Sad. But interested to hear how this works out.

Is it clear that he didn't say something to the man before decking him? The articles don't really give any eye-witness accounts (unless I seriously missed something), just a general summary of events. As sympathetic as the friends/coworkers of the man come off, hard for me to feel too bad about it given that he was behaving violently and may well have been dangerous (that does not necessarily mean that Jones wouldn't be convicted of manslaughter, but would probably impact sentencing if he is).

dudog84
08-10-2018, 10:37 AM
He should have done it here in Florida. We have the "Stand Your Ground" law. But I honestly don't know if it covers fists.

cato
08-10-2018, 10:53 AM
Punching somebody so hard they smash their head on pavement and die shortly afterward doesn’t ever seem “reasonable” to me. Victim was 35 and at his stepsisters wedding just tragic.

That’s the thing: we do not know what actually happened between the two, so have no idea what was or was not reasonable. And I bet we won’t get many more details until the trial (assuming there is one).

duke79
08-10-2018, 10:56 AM
Once again proves the old adage that nothing good happens out after midnight. Sadly folks don't seem to learn the damn lesson that the later your out the more chances for bad things to occur. This is just a tragic story for all involved.

Yea, a corollary to that is what my late father used to tell me: "nothing good ever happens when you're drunk".

Acymetric
08-10-2018, 10:58 AM
Punching somebody so hard they smash their head on pavement and die shortly afterward doesn’t ever seem “reasonable” to me. Victim was 35 and at his stepsisters wedding just tragic.


That’s the thing: we do not know what actually happened between the two, so have no idea what was or was not reasonable. And I bet we won’t get many more details until the trial (assuming there is one).

Just to add, you don't necessarily have to hit someone who has been drinking particularly hard to cause them to go down (and they may not be likely to fall gracefully), depending on the level of intoxication. Some folks are assuming that he got knocked out by the hit, he may have just lost his balance, fallen, and then hit his head on the ground which caused the loss of consciousness.

Of course, as cato mentions, this is all pretty much speculation.

Indoor66
08-10-2018, 11:21 AM
You would be the legal cause of the death. (And the tort).

Whether it is murder or manslaughter is a matter of intent (malice aforethought).

I think. It's been 30 years since crim law.

That damn issue of scienter rearing its ugly head. It has ruined a lot of "great" cases brought by prosecutors. 😏

Spanarkel
08-10-2018, 11:31 AM
I don't think that Coach Jones helped himself any by walking, then driving away from the altercation, nor did he help himself by waiting 4 full days to turn himself in to authorities.

OldPhiKap
08-10-2018, 12:04 PM
What if it's ruled self defense?

Good question. You would still be the cause of the death, but you would have a legal excuse for your actions.

OldPhiKap
08-10-2018, 12:07 PM
That damn issue of scienter rearing its ugly head. It has ruined a lot of "great" cases brought by prosecutors. 😏

My criminal law professor talked a lot like Elmer Fudd. It was really hard not to snicker when he would talk about someone “firing the fatal bullet.”

BD80
08-10-2018, 12:19 PM
Yea, a corollary to that is what my late father used to tell me: "nothing good ever happens when you're drunk".

I got married! Hmm, wait, I think that proves your point ...


My criminal law professor talked a lot like Elmer Fudd. It was really hard not to snicker when he would talk about someone “firing the fatal bullet.”

"I demand you shoot me now!" … BAM! ... "Aha! Pronoun trouble!"

sagegrouse
08-10-2018, 12:31 PM
Just to add, you don't necessarily have to hit someone who has been drinking particularly hard to cause them to go down (and they may not be likely to fall gracefully), depending on the level of intoxication. Some folks are assuming that he got knocked out by the hit, he may have just lost his balance, fallen, and then hit his head on the ground which caused the loss of consciousness.

Of course, as cato mentions, this is all pretty much speculation.

Years ago, my next door neighbor had a problem with a different neighbor party noise and went over to complain. He got into an argument with the guy, who punched him (but not very hard). He responded by whacking him with his flashlight. The guy toppled over backwards, hit his head and died. My neighbor was charged with involuntary manslaughter, primarily, I believe, because he was a reserve police officer and the LAPD didn't to be accused of protecting its own. He had to go through an entire trial to be acquitted.

Indoor66
08-10-2018, 12:36 PM
My criminal law professor talked a lot like Elmer Fudd. It was really hard not to snicker when he would talk about someone “firing the fatal bullet.”

Did it land in NC or TN?

HereBeforeCoachK
08-10-2018, 01:01 PM
I don't think that Coach Jones helped himself any by walking, then driving away from the altercation, nor did he help himself by waiting 4 full days to turn himself in to authorities.

True, but I wonder when Jones knew the guy had died.

OldPhiKap
08-10-2018, 01:23 PM
Did it land in NC or TN?

Not sure if it landed on Pennoyer, or on Neff.

cato
08-10-2018, 01:46 PM
Years ago, my next door neighbor had a problem with a different neighbor party noise and went over to complain. He got into an argument with the guy, who punched him (but not very hard). He responded by whacking him with his flashlight. The guy toppled over backwards, hit his head and died. My neighbor was charged with involuntary manslaughter, primarily, I believe, because he was a reserve police officer and the LAPD didn't to be accused of protecting its own. He had to go through an entire trial to be acquitted.

This happens all too often (someone falling over after being punched, and ending up dying). My wife handled a case where someone sucker punched a drunk person, who hit a metal railing on the way down and ended up dying.

I do not recall the crime that the sucker-punched was convicted of (and it wouldn’t matter as far as this case goes, since each state has slightly different homicide laws), but IIRC the key issue at trial was how the altercation started and whether the punch was a sucker punch.

It was, and he was convicted.

cato
08-10-2018, 01:48 PM
What if it's ruled self defense?

Still homicide, but not a crime.

budwom
08-10-2018, 04:19 PM
In Florida I'm pretty sure it's OK to sucker punch a guy, run him over with your car, and set him on fire, what with "stand yer ground" and all.

HereBeforeCoachK
08-10-2018, 04:39 PM
Still homicide, but not a crime.

Right, non criminal "justifiable homicide" when protecting one's self or another.

BigWayne
08-10-2018, 05:14 PM
In Florida I'm pretty sure it's OK to sucker punch a guy, run him over with your car, and set him on fire, what with "stand yer ground" and all.

Well at least Floridian women can wear false teeth whenever they want. (https://blog.lawinfo.com/2013/02/01/weird-laws-true-or-false-edition-20)

golfinesquire
08-10-2018, 06:51 PM
Years ago, my next door neighbor had a problem with a different neighbor party noise and went over to complain. He got into an argument with the guy, who punched him (but not very hard). He responded by whacking him with his flashlight. The guy toppled over backwards, hit his head and died. My neighbor was charged with involuntary manslaughter, primarily, I believe, because he was a reserve police officer and the LAPD didn't to be accused of protecting its own. He had to go through an entire trial to be acquitted.

A couple of things. First, in NY, there is no such thing as involuntary manslaughter. There is first degree manslaughter, which requires proof of intent to cause serious physical injury, and reckless manslaughter. Something like this, which is what we call a “one punch homicide” is sometimes prosecuted as misdemeanor assault, which requires an intent to cause physicsl injury and physical injury. Seems weird but as some have pointed out, giving someone a good hard punch doesn’t merit prosecution as a murder. There is a justificatiom defense if someone has a reasonable belief that physical force is necessary to prevent criminal mischief to property. So a lot depends on the facts, but that is the law.

Spanarkel
08-10-2018, 07:49 PM
The "coach"apparently had time to ponder the necessity for his punch.

"The coach got out, followed Szabo to the sidewalk, clocked him and sped off."(source:NBC News).

I'd guess that there is a high likelihood of there being video of the punch as it appeared to occur in the vicinity of a Long Island City hotel.

WillJ
08-10-2018, 10:46 PM
Terrible story, but it highlights two things.
First, don't get that drunk.
But second, it's never safe to punch someone hard in the face. It just isn't. Movies condition us to think that it's not that big a deal, but it is.

budwom
08-11-2018, 07:27 AM
Terrible story, but it highlights two things.
First, don't get that drunk.
But second, it's never safe to punch someone hard in the face. It just isn't. Movies condition us to think that it's not that big a deal, but it is.

third thing: better get a really really good lawyer who can spin a good tale (true or false, doesn't matter) in court. This won't be a case for a rookie.

HereBeforeCoachK
08-11-2018, 07:58 AM
The "coach"apparently had time to ponder the necessity for his punch.

"The coach got out, followed Szabo to the sidewalk, clocked him and sped off."(source:NBC News).

If that account is true, it means that the coach attacked Szabo while he was in retreat, and this is going to be ugly.

BigWayne
08-11-2018, 01:41 PM
If that account is true, it means that the coach attacked Szabo while he was in retreat, and this is going to be ugly.

I saw that wording in my local paper this morning, which had picked up the AP story that had this wording. I just now looked all over the web for articles on this and found a variety of ways it was reported, with the AP story being the most inflammatory. There has not been a lot of public statements made by the police in this case and most of these news outlets seem to be re-reporting others stuff, so it's pretty hard to tell what really happened.

The charge currently appears to be misdemeanor 3rd degree assault, which is the best objective evidence of what the authorities believe took place. I'm sure a lot more detail will come out eventually.

budwom
08-11-2018, 02:10 PM
I saw that wording in my local paper this morning, which had picked up the AP story that had this wording. I just now looked all over the web for articles on this and found a variety of ways it was reported, with the AP story being the most inflammatory. There has not been a lot of public statements made by the police in this case and most of these news outlets seem to be re-reporting others stuff, so it's pretty hard to tell what really happened.

The charge currently appears to be misdemeanor 3rd degree assault, which is the best objective evidence of what the authorities believe took place. I'm sure a lot more detail will come out eventually.

Based on (admittedly) what little I know, it seems like an unreasonably mild charge if in fact the coach got out of his car to punch the guy...why not just drive away?

Acymetric
08-11-2018, 02:24 PM
Based on (admittedly) what little I know, it seems like an unreasonably mild charge if in fact the coach got out of his car to punch the guy...why not just drive away?

I think that was the original charge, and the coroner's report came out only recently, so the charge might get upgraded now that the coroner ruled it a homicide. Of course, we are also operating on much less information than the police/DA so there may be mitigating factors they know that we do not.

kshepinthehouse
08-11-2018, 02:38 PM
Based on (admittedly) what little I know, it seems like an unreasonably mild charge if in fact the coach got out of his car to punch the guy...why not just drive away?

It’s tough. Punching someone is a misdemeanor. And it’s not like he bashed the guy’s face in with a barrage of punches. The guy was drunk and the coach hit him one good time, he fell and hit his head. Does it sound like a misdemeanor to me? Maybe not. Does it sound like a 2nd degree murder? Absolutely not. This is a tough one. I agree with others who think there may be some sort of manslaughter charge at most.

golfinesquire
08-12-2018, 03:53 PM
I think that was the original charge, and the coroner's report came out only recently, so the charge might get upgraded now that the coroner ruled it a homicide. Of course, we are also operating on much less information than the police/DA so there may be mitigating factors they know that we do not.
The misdemeanor sounds about right to me. I gave the explanation on the previous page. Also, fyi, when the coroner rules the death a homicide, that simply means death by another. It is not a legal conclusion about the appropriate level of charges. That decision is made solely by the relevant district attorney’s office. and as a criminal lawyer in NY, I know what I am talking about.

HereBeforeCoachK
08-12-2018, 08:18 PM
Also, fyi, when the coroner rules the death a homicide, that simply means death by another. It is not a legal conclusion about the appropriate level of charges. That decision is made solely by the relevant district attorney’s office. and as a criminal lawyer in NY, I know what I am talking about.

Thank you, I wondered about that point....the minimum definition of homicide.