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Jumbo
10-27-2007, 08:49 PM
Use this thread for analysis of the Blue/White game. And I know that given this was the first time anyone has seen Duke since March, people will be a) excited and b) ready to jump to conclusions. For perspective, here is last year's Blue/White boxscore (with points in red):

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=660385



TOT-FG 3-PT REBOUNDS
## Player Name FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OF DE TOT PF TP A TO BLK S MIN
02 Josh McRoberts...... 5-8 0-1 1-4 0 5 5 5 11 4 0 2 4 30
05 Martynas Pocius..... 1-8 1-4 0-0 0 1 1 6 3 3 1 0 1 30
12 Jordan Davidson..... 1-1 0-0 0-0 0 1 1 1 2 0 3 0 0 10
13 Nick Sutton......... 0-1 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 2 0 3 4 0 0 18
14 Dave McClure........ 4-9 0-0 0-1 2 5 7 0 8 1 2 2 3 30
15 Gerald Henderson.... 6-10 0-1 2-2 2 2 4 0 14 3 2 0 1 30
21 DeMarcus Nelson..... 3-12 2-5 1-4 0 6 6 1 9 2 3 0 0 30
30 Jon Scheyer......... 2-9 0-5 1-1 1 2 3 4 5 5 2 0 3 27
34 Jamal Boykin........ 3-7 0-0 2-3 7 4 11 4 8 0 2 0 2 30
42 Lance Thomas........ 6-12 0-0 3-3 2 1 3 0 15 0 3 0 1 30
51 Steve Johnson....... 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 6
55 Brian Zoubek........ 11-15 0-0 5-8 2 8 10 4 27 1 4 3 1 30


(edit: to create tables you can read like this, see the Stats section of this (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=53922&postcount=3) post.)

trinity92
10-27-2007, 08:51 PM
CAVEAT: All conclusions based on blue/white only:

The Bad News:
a. Zoubek is basically the same Zoubek
b. Lance is basically the same Lance
c. Paulus on a healthy foot is pretty much the same as Paulus on a bad foot, at least on offense, against a quick guard.


The Good News:

a. Gerald has an outside shot, and looks smoother than ever, with hints of Grant Hill in his game. I was impressed.
b. Taylor King is a sick shooter, and can play D
c. Singler is pretty much as good as advertised
d. Nolan Smith has the potential to be SICK.
e. Paulus showed improved ability to defend a quick PG.

Conclusions:

1. The lack of off-season development in our bigs means that losing out on Monroe was a disaster after all.

2. Nolan Smith should start or at very least get a LOT of minutes at point.

3. Based on one game, the bad outweighs the good and this will be a tough year.

feldspar
10-27-2007, 08:51 PM
b) ready to jump to conclusions.

Big Z's taking us to a National Championship.

Mark it down.

mgtr
10-27-2007, 08:53 PM
Zoubek is not as clumsy as last year. Paulus is better than last year. Henderson is much better than last year. The three freshmen are terrific. Other than that, not much to report!

DBFAN
10-27-2007, 09:00 PM
Will anyone be able to put the Blue White on youtube, I know sometimes people know how to make that happen, just wondering?

Wander
10-27-2007, 09:16 PM
Very hard to pick starters other than Singler, Nelson, Paulus (although Smith looked very, very good). I think we will have an interesting season!

It's not hard at all to see Henderson is a starter.

Jumbo
10-27-2007, 09:18 PM
Please direct all post-game analysis to the Blue-White thread. Thanks.

merry
10-27-2007, 09:18 PM
Zoubek is not as clumsy as last year. Paulus is better than last year. Henderson is much better than last year. The three freshmen are terrific. Other than that, not much to report!

That sums it up pretty well.

The teams were chosen by the student honorary coaches who were winners of a contest during the Game Day event. They selected players in a draft, and the first player selected was Kyle Singler for the white team. The blue team coach then got two picks and took Nelson and Henderson.

It looked like the blue team was going to blow out the white team for a while but the white team slowly caught up, partly because King cooled off a little in teh second half at the same time that Smith and Singler heated up in terms of scoring.

Also, Henderson had some major athletic moments incuding a block of an alley oop.

All and all it was a lot of fun to watch.

Wander
10-27-2007, 09:23 PM
Henderson' alley-oop block was awesome, as is his overall game.

Paulus had a lot of good entry passes that won't show up on the stats because Zoubek fumbled the ball. Nolan was impressive but he's going to get into foul trouble with his agressive defense.

throatybeard
10-27-2007, 09:25 PM
Shav's jersey will be retired.

Bob Green
10-27-2007, 09:25 PM
The scrimmage was two 15 minutes halves so the final score of 69-64 converts to 92-85 in a 40 minute game.

Wander
10-27-2007, 09:27 PM
Really? In your pictures, it looks like there was a fair amount of switching -- Thomas and Nelson were definitely on white at one point, Scheyer was definitely on blue at one point, etc.

There was some switching around at some points but it's very clear the first team was Paulus/Nelson/Henderson/Singler/Thomas.

Cameron
10-27-2007, 09:31 PM
You can point to Zoubek's great Blue-White game last season as an example to try and down play King's great first half performance (I'm not directing this towards you Jumbo, just to everyone in general), but I think he's going to be a great force for us this season, both offensively (for his outstanding range and height, of course) and defensively (for his ability to rebound and defend the interior). I think he'll see plenty of minutes.

With that said, King's lack of production in the second half of tonight's game certainly proves that he'll be a hot or cold guy, which I think many fans probably expected, anyway. Some games he'll play 25 minutes a night and score 15 points on great long range shooting and others he'll probably play 11 or 12 minutes with very little production. However, I think he'll be somewhere more in the middle most games, say, 7 or 8 points a night in 18 minutes of action.

Whatever the case, I think King Taylor proves a lot of doubters wrong and plays significantly for Coach K. There is no doubt that K loves his game. And, as I have said on here a thousand times previous, King's height and range in Duke's offense is a perfect marriage. He will be a great surprise for many fans across the nation. His lightning quick release is going to be a nightmare for opposing traditional bigs. A nightmare.

jimsumner
10-27-2007, 09:40 PM
Yes, Duke ran. A lot.

Paulus really worked hard to get the ball to Zoubek in scoring position and Zoubek appears to have lost some of last season's hesitation with the ball. But he didn't always finish. I suspect conditioning was a factor. In fact, GP really didn't shoot that much.

Paulus and Smith really went after and both had their good moments. Smith very disruptive on defense, no just against GP but all over the court. Too much one-on-one down the stretch. Singler was his team's best offensive weapon and he didn't see the ball in the last few minutes.

King. 17 points in 1st half, 5 threes, several from 30 foot range. 2 points in second half, missed badly on his 3s. He seemed tired in the second half.

Thomas very disruptive on D, ran floor well, hit a mid-range jumper. But he has no go-to move down low. I think his offense will be targets of opportunity.

Nelson was guarded by a walk-on most of the night and didn't take advantage of it. I suspect this may have been by design. How does it help Duke to have Nelson taking Davidson inside and dunking over him?

Scheyer seemed tentative early but made some big plays down the stretch, including a four-point play.

Singler and Henderson very, very impressive. Singler seems very mature for a freshman, very much in control, and very versatile. At one point King had outscored him something like 14-2 and Singler ended up with a 23-19 edge, IIRC. Doesn't force things. Maybe he should.

Henderson. Tremendous improvement in conditioning over last season. All over the court, much better decision making, hit some 3s. Needs to make those freebies.

McClure and Pocius were in street clothes but neither appeared to be hobbling or impaired in any way.

-jk
10-27-2007, 09:48 PM
Box from tonight:



VISITORS: Duke Blue 0-0
TOT-FG 3-PT REBOUNDS
## Player Name FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OF DE TOT PF TP A TO BLK S MIN
15 Gerald Henderson.... f 9-15 3-3 0-2 3 4 7 2 21 4 3 2 2 30
20 Taylor King......... f 7-15 5-12 0-0 1 5 6 4 19 0 2 0 2 30
55 Brian Zoubek........ c 5-8 0-0 1-2 4 6 10 6 11 0 3 4 0 30
03 Greg Paulus......... g 3-4 2-3 0-0 0 4 4 3 8 5 4 0 1 30
21 DeMarcus Nelson..... g 5-10 0-1 0-0 2 3 5 1 10 4 3 1 0 30
TEAM................ 1 1
Totals.............. 29-52 10-19 1-4 11 22 33 16 69 13 15 7 5 150

TOTAL FG% 1st Half: 17-24 70.8% 2nd Half: 12-28 42.9% Game: 55.8% DEADB
3-Pt. FG% 1st Half: 7-10 70.0% 2nd Half: 3-9 33.3% Game: 52.6% REBS
F Throw % 1st Half: 0-2 0.0% 2nd Half: 1-2 50.0% Game: 25.0% 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOME TEAM: Duke White 0-0
TOT-FG 3-PT REBOUNDS
## Player Name FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OF DE TOT PF TP A TO BLK S MIN
12 Kyle Singler........ f 9-17 0-3 5-7 6 3 9 4 23 2 2 0 0 30
42 Lance Thomas........ f 3-8 0-0 3-6 3 0 3 1 9 0 1 1 1 29
51 Steve Johnson....... c 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 6
02 Nolan Smith......... g 7-18 1-4 4-4 1 2 3 3 19 1 4 0 5 30
30 Jon Scheyer......... g 2-8 1-2 3-3 2 5 7 0 8 5 1 0 4 30
41 Jordan Davidson..... 2-6 1-4 0-0 0 1 1 0 5 3 1 0 0 25
TEAM................ 3 2 5
Totals.............. 23-57 3-13 15-20 15 13 28 9 64 11 9 1 10 150


TOTAL FG% 1st Half: 12-31 38.7% 2nd Half: 11-26 42.3% Game: 40.4% DEADB
3-Pt. FG% 1st Half: 1-6 16.7% 2nd Half: 2-7 28.6% Game: 23.1% REBS
F Throw % 1st Half: 4-7 57.1% 2nd Half: 11-13 84.6% Game: 75.0% 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Officials:
Technical fouls: Duke Blue-None. Duke White-None.
Attendance: 9314
Score by Periods 1st 2nd Total
Duke Blue..................... 41 28 - 69
Duke White.................... 29 35 - 64

Boston Dukie
10-27-2007, 09:53 PM
It seems the consensus from the group was that Singler and Nolan are the real deal and Henderson made great strides since last year, which is fantastic.

I thought by the end of last year, he was Duke's best offensive player as he could create his own shot in so many ways. Seems like the Scheyer vs. Henderson starting debate might end quickly.

Still seems like King is an open question, let's just hope he hasn't just pulled a Zoubek from lasy year and fooled everyone.

I was hoping to hear that Lance is a completely different player. Did anyone see signs of this?

Wander
10-27-2007, 10:00 PM
Seems like the Scheyer vs. Henderson starting debate might end quickly.


It's over.



I was hoping to hear that Lance is a completely different player. Did anyone see signs of this?

Hard to tell anything about Lance. Paulus had good entry passes but a guy inside who couldn't take advantage. Opposite with Nolan/Lance - Nolan scored and defended well but didn't get the ball inside effectively overall.

Jumbo
10-27-2007, 10:03 PM
It's over.

Is that the old DBR joke? If not, it's absolutely ridiculous to decide that based on the Blue/White game. That's exactly why I posted last year's box score.

Wander
10-27-2007, 10:06 PM
Is that the old DBR joke? If not, it's absolutely ridiculous to decide that based on the Blue/White game. That's exactly why I posted last year's box score.

It's not a joke and it's also not based on the Blue/White game.

Jumbo
10-27-2007, 10:08 PM
It's not a joke and it's also not based on the Blue/White game.

Then please tell us what else it's based upon.

(To explain the joke thing -- in 2001, after Boozer got hurt, someone posted a thread called "It's Over." As we all know, Duke didn't lose again the rest of the year. So, that phrase has become a sarcastic one on the DBR.)

Wander
10-27-2007, 10:17 PM
"It's over" was probably a little bit strong. What I mean is that Henderson is as much a "lock" to start at the beginning of the season as Nelson and Singler are.

The thing that convinced me the most is the fact that he practiced with the first team on Friday. There was some subbing, but it's clear he was the starter. That's the main thing. It's that combined with his impressive play in practice and the blue-white game, but those are secondary reasons to his playing on the first team. Throw in that he was the higher rated recruit and is still considered to be more talented, and his starting position is as clear to me as Nelson's and Singler's. I do think Scheyer will be the best 6th man in the ACC however.

Jumbo
10-27-2007, 10:20 PM
"It's over" was probably a little bit strong. What I mean is that Henderson is as much a "lock" to start at the beginning of the season as Nelson and Singler are.

The thing that convinced me the most is the fact that he practiced with the first team on Friday. There was some subbing, but it's clear he was the starter. That's the main thing. It's that combined with his impressive play in practice and the blue-white game, but those are secondary reasons to his playing on the first team. Throw in that he was the higher rated recruit and is still considered to be more talented, and his starting position is as clear to me as Nelson's and Singler's. I do think Scheyer will be the best 6th man in the ACC however.

You were at the open practice?

Cameron
10-27-2007, 10:23 PM
For those who were watching, was Jon just not looking for his shot very much tonight or was he just more concerned with helping set up the offense? Overall it looks like he had a pretty nice game, though, with 7 boards, 5 assists, and 4 steals.

I'll assume he was just running the White offense more tonight than concerned with scoring. Those 5 assists are great to see, as he'll most definitely be one of the best passers in the ACC this season. And considering he's proved in the past he can get himself to the hoop rather well, his penetrating and dishing to the perimeter to guys like Taylor, Greg, and DeMarcus will be wonderful.

Wander
10-27-2007, 10:37 PM
You were at the open practice?

Yeah.

I'll just reiterate that I'm a big Scheyer fan and think that he's a very good all-around player, offense and defense. I really do think he will be the best 6th man in the ACC. I'm certainly not one of those to jump to conclusions about practices or one of the guys complaining that Scheyer isn't that good because he "only" scored 12 or 13 or whatever it was a freshman. It's just that someone one of Paulus, Scheyer, Nelson, Henderson, and Singler has to get pushed out of the starting line-up and right now it's Scheyer. He might even see the same amount of minutes as some of those four other guys.

Jumbo
10-27-2007, 10:39 PM
For those who were watching, was Jon just not looking for his shot very much tonight or was he just more concerned with helping set up the offense? Overall it looks like he had a pretty nice game, though, with 7 boards, 5 assists, and 4 steals.

I'll assume he was just running the White offense more tonight than concerned with scoring. Those 5 assists are great to see, as he'll most definitely be one of the best passers in the ACC this season. And considering he's proved in the past he can get himself to the hoop rather well, his penetrating and dishing to the perimeter to guys like Taylor, Greg, and DeMarcus will be wonderful.

That's one of the reasons I posted last year's boxscore. Scheyer had an almost identical Blue/White game, and Henderson put up bigger stats that night, too. As we all know, Scheyer started all but one game. That's why, again, I'm cautioning everyone about jumping to conclusions.

jipops
10-27-2007, 10:39 PM
CAVEAT: All conclusions based on blue/white only:

The Bad News:
a. Zoubek is basically the same Zoubek
b. Lance is basically the same Lance
c. Paulus on a healthy foot is pretty much the same as Paulus on a bad foot, at least on offense, against a quick guard.


The Good News:

a. Gerald has an outside shot, and looks smoother than ever, with hints of Grant Hill in his game. I was impressed.
b. Taylor King is a sick shooter, and can play D
c. Singler is pretty much as good as advertised
d. Nolan Smith has the potential to be SICK.
e. Paulus showed improved ability to defend a quick PG.

Conclusions:

1. The lack of off-season development in our bigs means that losing out on Monroe was a disaster after all.

2. Nolan Smith should start or at very least get a LOT of minutes at point.

3. Based on one game, the bad outweighs the good and this will be a tough year.

I must have attended a different blue/white game.

Zoubek has obviously gained more lower body strength. Now he just needs to get back in shape so can offer more defensively. He has a comfortable looking jump hook. We'll see if he can use it in real game pressure.

There are no hints of Grant Hill in Henderson's game. Grant had a great handle, Gerald's is still a work in progress. There are a myriad of other factors. Please, nobody should ever make a comparison between these two guys. I feel wrong for doing it myself.

Taylor King can shoot, but I saw nothing to convince me that he offers much defensively, especially in the kind of role we need. I'd much rather see a healthy McClure out there at this point.

Nolan Smith has a lot of potential, as does everyone else.

Not sure how losing Monroe was disastrous for this season seeing as how he wouldn't be playing college ball this year anyways. Also, did you workout with our bigs this offseason so that you can determine that they did not develop? I like the fact that K has some options this season to cause some matchup problems for opposing teams. He can go very big with Zoubek/Singler combo or go fast with a Thomas/Singler combo. We also have two excellent physical , rebounding wings in Nelson and Henderson. Then there are he ball handling abilities of Scheyer, Paulus and Smith which look positive. Looks like pretty strong rotation to me. Depends on what your idea of a tough year is.

ACCBBallFan
10-27-2007, 10:42 PM
Not jumping to conclusion, just posting thoughts based on tonight, until we have something better to base conclusion on.

Zoubek who still needs to get into game shape had to be very tired at end with no subs for Blue team, and it sounded like King either was tired or defense adjusted as he either was not open as much or did not shoot as well when he was open.

I don't know what Paulus has to do to please this board. Last half of last season he was criticized for shooting too much and not making his teammates better. Today he makes his team better with 5 Assists but is still criticized for not shooting enough. But at crunch time he was absolutely the difference with clutch 3 and a lay-up to seal it, though allowing the 4 point play to Jon Scheyer was not good.

Nolan also was very good on defense but seemed to foul a lot too.

Based on tonight:

Stats - Assist to Turnovers were what might be expected in first outing.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.db...CLID=1290 698

Paulus (8 points, 5 Assists, 4 boards, 4 turnovers)/Smith (19 points, 1 Assist, 4 Turnovers)
Nelson (10 points 5 boards) /Smith
Henderson (21 points 7 boards)/Scheyer (8 points 7 boards, 5 Assists 1 Turnover)
Singler (23 points 9 boards)/Lance (9 points)
King (19 points 6 boards)/Zoubek (double double 11 points and 10 boards)

Every body had at least 8 points and Jordan Davidson chimed in with 5 points 3 assists 1 turnover with Marty and Dave out due to injury.

A few guys played better on defense than expected (Paulus/King/Zoubek) and first named guys would be a scoring machine.

Nolan sounds like he can do exactly what is needed, relieve Nelson at times from guarding the fastest guard and give Paulus an occasional rest by running the PG.

When Singler needs a break, Lance can fill in better at 4 than 5 based on Zoubek dominating him, and also play post defender if King and Zoubek get into foul trouble. Dave too when he returns.

Can't go wrong with either Henderson or Scheyer.

Two heaviest guys share the post defender role and present two totally different looks on Offense.

When Dave and Marty return those are going to e very competitive practices with everybody improving as a result.

As Bob Green indicated, fifteen minute halves with final score of 69-64 means that at same pace in 20 minute halves score would have been 92-85.

feldspar
10-27-2007, 10:45 PM
I don't know what Paulus has to do to please this board.

Be Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams combined.

Is that too much to ask?

mapei
10-27-2007, 10:46 PM
Thanks for all the reports, everybody. One thing that jumps out at me is Scheyer and Smith had 9 steals between them, not too shabby. Of course the downside is that those steals were turnovers for our other players . . .

jipops
10-27-2007, 10:46 PM
That's one of the reasons I posted last year's boxscore. Scheyer had an almost identical Blue/White game, and Henderson put up bigger stats that night, too. As we all know, Scheyer started all but one game. That's why, again, I'm cautioning everyone about jumping to conclusions.

Lee Melchionni was a Blue/White legend.

Exiled_Devil
10-27-2007, 11:01 PM
Be Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams combined.

Is that too much to ask?

No.

In fact, if he could be Hurley, JWill and make some good BBQ, then I think he would be accepted.

throatybeard
10-27-2007, 11:03 PM
Be Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams combined.

Is that too much to ask?

You forgot Amaker, Snyder and Jesus.

Ima Facultiwyfe
10-27-2007, 11:11 PM
...about Henderson this year. He's so purdy!!!!:D

Love, Ima

Sixthman
10-27-2007, 11:12 PM
The most important thing learned from tonight came from Coach K's halftime comments. He was unreserved in his ambition for the team. He is obviously excited and believes this team can be very very good. His said the key to success is for Duke to be Duke. I've been to a lot of blue and white games, and unlike almost all other situations, i think here you can learn more by breaking down individual players rather than looking at the team. I saw great potential in all of the freshmen. King's release is as slow as advertised, but mitigated by the fact that he makes a confident decision to shoot about three seconds before he gets the ball. I agree with the comment that he was more effective on defense than not. Nolan Smith showed a lot by playing much better in the second half than the first. He is quick in the half court offense and strong on defense. He repeatedly finished at the rim from the left side with his right hand. Even my eleven year old commented on how odd that was. Does any one have any idea what's up with that? I thought Lance Thomas looked much more effective than he did at the end of last year, when he seemed tired. I also think his game is naturally more effective in a more wide open game. Anyone who thinks Paulus did not look very good would have to also consider Nolan Smith a mediocre athlethe. I prefer to believe that Smith has remarkable speed, which is very encouraging as to Paulus, because Paulus looked lively and effective against Smith's speed. Zoubek was effective on defense and did not travel on offense. That alone is a vast improvement. I agree with the comment that he seems substantially stronger. Did any one else notice the post timeout huddle for the Blue Team in which Zoubek was the vocal leader, talking and talking a lot for an extended period of time. He is tough and it shows in his attitude on court. I agree with the comments about Henderson looking improved. I always look for a returning player or two to have raised their game to a fundmentally higher level. Henderson's play was very encouraging in this regard. He was particularly effective with the pull up jumper, which of course is aided by his good looking three point shot. Wojo can coach. He willed his team back into the game. Jon Scheyer seems to be the only guy on the team with any stroke from the free throw line. It's early, but perhaps we need a specifial free throw coach. Singler showed a complete game and he and Smith play very well together. It was fun to watch Singler and King guarding each other, as they got very physical from time to time. As you might expect early in the season and playing people who are pretty familiar with your game passing seemed a little weak, except for the entry into the post, which seems already improved over last year. The team focused on match ups, with even smaller players posting up when they had the advantage. Singler was very nimble in these situations close to the basket. Both Paulus and Scheyer struck me as comfortable letter the game come to them, and doing the little things. They were both very active in creating opportunities for team mates. All in all, a good start.

trinity92
10-27-2007, 11:22 PM
I must have attended a different blue/white game.

Zoubek has obviously gained more lower body strength. Now he just needs to get back in shape so can offer more defensively. He has a comfortable looking jump hook. We'll see if he can use it in real game pressure.
Zoubek was minimum 5-6 inches taller than the biggest guys on him and had a hard time getting his shot off. He looks just as clumsy to me as last year

There are no hints of Grant Hill in Henderson's game. Grant had a great handle, Gerald's is still a work in progress. There are a myriad of other factors. Please, nobody should ever make a comparison between these two guys. I feel wrong for doing it myself.
I didn't come close to implying Gerald was "the next grant." However, I feel quite comfortable with my invocation of grant. The smoothness, athleticism and do everything skills they both have/had make it a natural match. Can you name another Duke player since Grant that has more of those attributes than Gerald?

Taylor King can shoot, but I saw nothing to convince me that he offers much defensively, especially in the kind of role we need. I'd much rather see a healthy McClure out there at this point.
Actually King had a nice block, 6 rebounds and is a lot bigger than McClure. I can't wait to see more

Nolan Smith has a lot of potential, as does everyone else.

Not sure how losing Monroe was disastrous for this season seeing as how he wouldn't be playing college ball this year anyways. Also, did you workout with our bigs this offseason so that you can determine that they did not develop?
As mentioned above. Z's hands, comfort level and general fluidity (in his own gym against his own teammates) look the same as last year. Lance didn't show anything new either. It's not this year I'm worried about. It's that we're looking at our front line for the next two seasons and it's not even close to top tier.
I like the fact that K has some options this season to cause some matchup problems for opposing teams. He can go very big with Zoubek/Singler combo or go fast with a Thomas/Singler combo. We also have two excellent physical , rebounding wings in Nelson and Henderson. Then there are he ball handling abilities of Scheyer, Paulus and Smith which look positive. Looks like pretty strong rotation to me. Depends on what your idea of a tough year is.

How about less than 25 wins?

ACCBBallFan
10-27-2007, 11:31 PM
Zoubek is always going to be several inches taller than the opponent.

ACCBBallFan
10-27-2007, 11:53 PM
Really does not matter who starts among Paulus/Nolan or Henderson/Scheyer or King/Zoubek/Lance as they each have their positives, and all will get their share of PT that will vary based on the opponent.

I just think Lance is a better sub at the 4 since he appears to have some range and is a better perimeter defender. King weighs more, has more range which makes it an even bigger mismatch when he is post defender, and would be quite a weapon on the secondary break.

jipops
10-28-2007, 12:00 AM
Zoubek was minimum 5-6 inches taller than the biggest guys on him and had a hard time getting his shot off. He looks just as clumsy to me as last year

I didn't come close to implying Gerald was "the next grant." However, I feel quite comfortable with my invocation of grant. The smoothness, athleticism and do everything skills they both have/had make it a natural match. Can you name another Duke player since Grant that has more of those attributes than Gerald?

Actually King had a nice block, 6 rebounds and is a lot bigger than McClure. I can't wait to see more

As mentioned above. Z's hands, comfort level and general fluidity (in his own gym against his own teammates) look the same as last year. Lance didn't show anything new either. It's not this year I'm worried about. It's that we're looking at our front line for the next two seasons and it's not even close to top tier.

How about less than 25 wins?

Zoubek had several baskets in traffic and noticeably used his lower body strength for positioning. As I've said a number of times already, he's still getting back in shape, hence what you see as 'clumsy'.

Look I think Gerald Henderson is a nice player but please... 'do everything skills '!!? Mentioned in the same breath as Grant Hill!!? Please point out offensive sets where Gerald has led at point. Please point out offensive sets where Gerald has played center... etc... There is a large amount of game tape of Grant doing this at Duke. "The smoothness, athleticism and do everything skills they both have/had make it a natural match. Can you name another Duke player since Grant that has more of those attributes than Gerald?" Ricky Price, Corey Maggette and Dahntay Jones were excellent athletes as well, they were nothing like Grant either. There hasn't been a player remotely similar to Grant since Grant.

"Actually King had a nice block, 6 rebounds and is a lot bigger than McClure. I can't wait to see more". King is about a half inch taller than McClure. We most sorely need experienced D and rebounding in the frontcourt. I feel much more comfortable with McClure providing that than King. I'm willing to bet that King doesn't know how to hedge and switch nearly as well as McClure does right now.

"It's not this year I'm worried about. It's that we're looking at our front line for the next two seasons and it's not even close to top tier."
If we have this same frontline next season, we're looking very, very nice. Who are you looking for, Hakeem Olajuwan?

"How about less than 25 wins?"
It's that black and white for you? You looking for Final Four or better as well? At the risk of sounding cheesy, as long as Duke defines its own success I'm satisfied, as well I should be.

Cameron
10-28-2007, 12:03 AM
We will win at least 25 games this season, IMO. I think we will win the Maui Invite, win 11 or 12 conference games, take at least one victory home in the ACC Tourney, and travel to the Sweet 16 in the NCAAs, which, if we accomplished all of that, would most certainly put us past the 25 win mark. Because, conservatively, out of our 12 scheduled non-conference games, you'd have to say we'll probably win 9 of those. My guess is more like 10 or 11, though, with perhaps a loss to Pitt in New York.

I know that is A LOT of speculation (and presumably unwarranted considering we have yet to see what our team is actually capable of against the outside world) but I really think we are a 25 win ball club. We have such a deep roster this year, loaded with so much athleticism and talent, that I think we are at least 3 wins better than last season. We could have easily been a 25 win ball club a year ago, as we lost several close games and flamed out as early as possible in both the ACC and NCAA Tourney's, both losses being very winnable.

At any rate, that's just my guess. Certainly not based on anything factual at this point in time, however. We'll just have to wait and see.

hurleyfor3
10-28-2007, 12:06 AM
Be Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams combined.

Is that too much to ask?

The JWill part of him would miss too many freethrows

bbar7502
10-28-2007, 12:50 AM
"we are gonna be duke and we'll see where the hell that takes us this year"-Coach K

I thought the blue-white game was pretty good and it showed that we for one have a very strong freshmen class this year that I think will contribute a lot to this team. I hated not to see david and marty, i am very interested where marty is gonna fit in. i know david will be big in helping with the post. Big Z did look a little more decisive with the ball, but he still has some work to do which is understandable. Gerald looks ready to take over. Paulus looked more to create then to shoot, but he did hit a big three near the end of the game. Nolan is good for him.. he pushed him a lot and is really good and compeitive. King isnt shy at all..and Singler is going be really good. Demarcus looks solid and Lance didnt look like he showed everything, i still think that he is gonna be good this year. Jon ran for his life around chasing gerald and demarcus so he had a tough night. With all of this being said, there is little stock that can be put into this game but it did show a lot of promise. my hype level right now is a final four run....there i said it.

One more thing and I know some will groan is I still wish we had midnight madness. The atmosphere at times was ho hum and there was a lot of empty seats. Now i know a lot of factors played into this, but still there would be nothing better then a full cameron with a crowd going crazy. I was pumped for K to talk at half but half of the people that were there were getting refreshments. I thought the pep rally was awesome but I felt like the atmosphere diminshed inside. anyway just my opinon and i am sure some will disagree, but in light of that i am pumped for this year.

willywoody
10-28-2007, 01:16 AM
duke will be better by subtraction this year. the freshmen are only gravy.

mgtr
10-28-2007, 01:55 AM
Gravy? Well, yes, but very rich gravy, indeed. No doubt laced with wine and/or other spirits. Singler and Smith will fit right into the run and gun style offense (Singler looked wonderful in the second half). King Taylor can definitely gun, but he may need more condititioning for the run part (see the second half, for instance). Add in liberal dollops of Nelson, Henderson and Paulus, and you could have a pretty fair team right there. Add in one really good big (which we don't yet) and they would be great.

Gravy, indeed. Harrumph!

dkbaseball
10-28-2007, 01:56 AM
He repeatedly finished at the rim from the left side with his right hand. Even my eleven year old commented on how odd that was. Does any one have any idea what's up with that?

You can seal off the defender with your rear end. Can't do it if you're going up with your left. He's got an open shot at the ball.

Cameron
10-28-2007, 02:21 AM
King Taylor's first half shooting performance was definitely great to hear tonight, but what perhaps was the most refreshing story was the defensive pressure of Smith and Scheyer for the white team. It really sounds as if those two were creating a lot of havoc throughout the game, which is great to hear, as that means we could now have possibly three very solid perimeter defenders in Jon, Nolan, and, of course, DeMarcus. This would be a great improvement from a year ago, when we were continually out played by quicker, more athletic backcourts.

Jon was already a much better defender a year ago than most non-Duke fans gave him credit for (and that's just because of his superb basketball IQ; he just knows where to be on the floor at all times), but it sounds like he has been improving that part of his game over the summer. Perhaps that means his speed has enhanced quite a bit? Did anybody come away thinking this?

Again, as Jumbo has pointed out several times above, I'm not trying to base every thing off this one team scrimmage, because we have yet to step out and play anybody not named Duke. However, there were definitely some promising things to take away from tonight, I think. Whether or not these things prove to become true as the season gets underway still remains to be seen, but I'd much rather see lots of positives in the Blue-White game than not. And it sounds like there were lots of positives.

lavell12
10-28-2007, 02:44 AM
Gerald Henderson reminds me of Rashad McCants. Withoutn the attitude ofcourse. Gerald and Rashad are so smooth they make the game look easy.

They play in slow motion.

Lulu
10-28-2007, 02:45 AM
Does anyone know if Inside Access is going to add the blue-white game to their archive (I see they have last year's game). As expected, I was unable to view the game due to technical difficulties. However, unexpectedly it was because my IP Comcast went out for the afternoon.

So will Inside Access add today's Blue-White to their archive for on-demand viewing?

wisteria
10-28-2007, 02:55 AM
Oh, just watched the video highlights. I am SOOOOOO pumped for the season. The fact that we don't have a superstar (yet) could just be blessing in disguise. With all these young players, we'll have plenty of energy and desire to win as a team! It's going to be fun!

VaDukie
10-28-2007, 04:32 AM
Anyone who thinks our recruiting has fallen off just needs to watch what the freshmen did tonight. A special, special, special class.

ACCBBallFan
10-28-2007, 08:11 AM
Gravy? Well, yes, but very rich gravy, indeed. No doubt laced with wine and/or other spirits. Singler and Smith will fit right into the run and gun style offense (Singler looked wonderful in the second half). King Taylor can definitely gun, but he may need more condititioning for the run part (see the second half, for instance). Add in liberal dollops of Nelson, Henderson and Paulus, and you could have a pretty fair team right there. Add in one really good big (which we don't yet) and they would be great.

Gravy, indeed. Harrumph!

While King Taylorcould definitely prosper by being in better shape, his endurance was fine the first 15 minutes which is more than he could be expected to play consecutively.

That three headed monster of Zoubek-Lance-King backed up by McClure or Singler when fouls mount or situation dictates, should be adequate post play as long as people judge the offense by results rather than by whether they came as a result of a traditional back to the basket post player.

The defense from both King Taylor and Zoubek after the first couple of minutes fouling was a good sign for Duke. Still need to see how well the hedge against an unknown opponent. They have been practicing against one another all summer, between injuries, and know each other's moves too well,

Don't get too euphoric though. Fast forward a couple minutes past the NC State intros and watch JJ Hickson. He is going to be a load in the post.

http://videos.newsobserver.com/vmix_hosted_apps/p/media?id=1543118

thomas
10-28-2007, 08:59 AM
So many insightful comments have been made about last night's Blue-White game, including DBR's brilliant summary on the front page, but I will offer a few thoughts, and a concluding question:

1. The matchup problems created by Taylor King and Kyle Singler will, more often than not, compensate for our lack of several traditional "bigs." Taylor is much more mobile and multidimensional than I thought from all the recruiting reports.

2. We have several players who can truly erupt and take over games: King, Henderson, and Nelson come to mind first. Singler can as well, although he struck me as an assasin who can quietly destory you in many ways before you have a clue. I also envision Nolan Smith changing many games with flurries of tips,steals,and errant passes, sending Cameron into a frenzy, and the other team wilting away. We have a lot of talent.

3. Coach "P" is a ball of fire. Her performance at the pregame pep rally was refreshing and really showed off her bubbly, confident, and spontaneous personality. If her team emulates her fire, that elusive NC is forthcoming. I am guilty of not attending the women's games, and I will change that.

4. As much as I want Duke football to succeed, I actually think I like scheduling the Blue-White games and football on separate weekends. Co-promoting the men's and women's programs makes sense and came off very well yesterday. Our football program needs our support, but maybe it will be stronger if it runs its own race. Does anyone else agree?

Sixthman
10-28-2007, 09:09 AM
You can seal off the defender with your rear end. Can't do it if you're going up with your left. He's got an open shot at the ball.

The why wasn't he finishing with his left hand from the right side?

Carlos
10-28-2007, 10:09 AM
You forgot Amaker, Snyder and Jesus.

Redundant... Jason Williams was Jesus.

gw67
10-28-2007, 10:11 AM
I just finished reading this thread and thanks to all who posted their thoughts after attending or viewing the game. I recognize the limitations of a pre-season game against yourself but, based on the posts, it appears that the three freshmen made good impressions. Singler appears to be a good all around player and tough competitor; King can shoot the ball (Is his release quick or slow? Who cares?); and Smith is fast and a tough defensive player (His stats for a point guard were weird - 18 shots, 1 assist and 4 turnovers).

The returning perimeter players also did well. Paulus, Nelson, Henderson and Scheyer each did well in various aspects of the game, although the comparison of Henderson to Grant is over the top, IMO. The play of Thomas and Zoubek was apparently mixed although Zoubek got the better of the two statistically.

The return of McClure and Pocius will add to the mix. On the upside, the deep bench allows for a high tempo game and frequent substitutions, as well as insurance against injuries and fouls. On the downside, it may be difficult to keep players happy who are either at the end of the bench or who see their minutes reduced from last season.

gw67

LetItBD08
10-28-2007, 10:21 AM
The fact that we don't have a superstar (yet) could just be blessing in disguise. With all these young players, we'll have plenty of energy and desire to win as a team! It's going to be fun!

I was talking with one of the players a week or so ago, and he reflected your sentiments exactly. It's not a "2 superstars +" team; it's a well-rounded, talented team. The team itself is extremely optimistic, and that's going to carry over to the student body and fan base really quickly if it hasn't already.

Carlos
10-28-2007, 10:22 AM
"Actually King had a nice block, 6 rebounds and is a lot bigger than McClure. I can't wait to see more". King is about a half inch taller than McClure. We most sorely need experienced D and rebounding in the frontcourt. I feel much more comfortable with McClure providing that than King. I'm willing to bet that King doesn't know how to hedge and switch nearly as well as McClure does right now.

I'm going to have to wait until we see King play defense against someone other than Singler who is supposed to be a pretty good player. But from all accounts, King is a very solid rebounder and while he may only be half an inch taller than McClure his arms are much longer so he's going to play bigger.

Beyond that, I think the style of play that Duke is shooting for this year is going to favor King over McClure. Essentially the question is if King's superior offense would offset McClure's superior defense. I'm not sure if a 6-6 McClure guarding a 6-8 PF results in substantially more of an advantage to Duke than having a 6-6 King guarding the same guy. But I do know that having King in on the offensive end of the floor makes everybody on the Duke team a better offensive player because it forces teams to take one of their big men away from the basket. Unless McClure has developed the ability to consistently hit an outside shot over the summer you would have to give the King the edge in that area. With an offense that doesn't have a strong post presence and is going to rely on drives to the basket and kick outs for open shots, King brings much more to the table.

captmojo
10-28-2007, 10:25 AM
Sounds like this team is going to be a heck of a lot of fun. It also seems like starters are not going to be anywhere as close to a level of importance as finishers. 16 for 24 at the free throw line is a good start for pre-season, but needs to improve. I wish stat reports could list how many were front ends of bonus opportunities.

A well rounded roster here. I look forward to great times ahead.

bird
10-28-2007, 10:47 AM
My thoughts:

1. Smith is not putting Paulus on the bench, notwithstanding Smith's obvious virtues and what looks like a pretty hot rivalry. But Smith is a true point guard!

2. Scheyer is under the most pressure re starting spot.

3. Henderson is a starter.

4. Why, oh why, does Zoubek bring the ball down after receiving pass in traffic?

5. Why, oh why, does Zoubek ever leave his feet on defense?

6. Singler was quite impressive operating inside.

7. McClure moved painfully onto the floor at introductions.

8. K exudes optimism about the team. I compare that to his pretty pointed comments (if you have the translation dictionary) last year.

I'm sort of rubbing my hands together in anticipation right now. After the pains of last year, I think we are going to get some nice rewards this year.

Devilsfan
10-28-2007, 10:55 AM
The freshmen seemed "at times" (G was terrrific) to be the best players on the court until King ran out of gas. Singler and Smith started a little slower but pasted King in their late performances. We are definitely "BIG MAN CHALLENGED" to coin a terminology from my pc friends. That's going to be a problem in the ACC imo.
I hope Zoub continues to improve as we will definitely need him.

1Devil
10-28-2007, 11:04 AM
I like the offensive options a whole lot this year compared with last year.

2007 Henderson > 2006 Henderson
Singler > McRoberts (offensively for sure)
King > McClure (but hey, we should also get McClure back at some point)
2007 Scheyer > 2006 Scheyer, because of not having to play backup point
Smith should give us some added dribble penetration

I also think Nelson will be much better not having to carry as much of the scoring load. He may not score quite as much this year, but he'll not have to force as much either.

Hope we can keep everyone (except Nelson of course) around for the 08/09 season.

willywoody
10-28-2007, 11:35 AM
Gravy? Well, yes, but very rich gravy, indeed. No doubt laced with wine and/or other spirits. Singler and Smith will fit right into the run and gun style offense (Singler looked wonderful in the second half). King Taylor can definitely gun, but he may need more condititioning for the run part (see the second half, for instance). Add in liberal dollops of Nelson, Henderson and Paulus, and you could have a pretty fair team right there. Add in one really good big (which we don't yet) and they would be great.

Gravy, indeed. Harrumph!

sorry didn't mean to disparage the frosh. i like gravy. if we get production from the frosh like scheyer and henderson produced last year i'd say we'll be really good but agree with others here that we need big man development to get to the top of the acc, if nothing more than for defensive purposes and rebounding against certain teams. i think we'll have plenty of fire power on offense.

who's the defensive stopper on this team?

Lavabe
10-28-2007, 11:37 AM
All the talk about Gerald is encouraging.

Didn't Gerald have issues with asthma last season? Would someone please clarify? Has it cleared up?

Thanks,
Lavabe

1Devil
10-28-2007, 11:39 AM
Yeah, we could sure use a Boateng in the junior class this year. Oh well...he'll get his just desserts in Maui.

1Devil
10-28-2007, 11:53 AM
All the talk about Gerald is encouraging.

Didn't Gerald have issues with asthma last season? Would someone please clarify? Has it cleared up?

Thanks,
Lavabe


We were told this preseason that he never had asthma at all. It was a combination of suboptimal conditioning due to injuries and perhaps some performance anxiety (maybe "trying too hard" is a better way to put it).

Lavabe
10-28-2007, 12:21 PM
We were told this preseason that he never had asthma at all. It was a combination of suboptimal conditioning due to injuries and perhaps some performance anxiety (maybe "trying too hard" is a better way to put it).

Thanks for clarifying. That's great to hear!
Cheers,
Lavabe

JasonEvans
10-28-2007, 01:24 PM
who's the defensive stopper on this team?

McClure and Nelson are major-league defensive studs. It appears Smith is too, based on early returns. Scheyer and Thomas were good defenders last season though I am not sure I would call them "stoppers." Still, they are both above-average... a lot above-average.

--Jason "by reputation, Singler is a good defender as well" Evans

lavell12
10-28-2007, 01:52 PM
McClure and Nelson are major-league defensive studs. It appears Smith is too, based on early returns. Scheyer and Thomas were good defenders last season though I am not sure I would call them "stoppers." Still, they are both above-average... a lot above-average.

--Jason "by reputation, Singler is a good defender as well" Evans

Henderson is a defensive stud also with his great atheletism. Paulus is the only real liability on defense.

lavell12
10-28-2007, 02:02 PM
I can't find the highlights on the web.

Can anyone help me with a link?

jimsumner
10-28-2007, 02:39 PM
Nolan Smith can certainly defend point guards. He was very, very active defensively and forced numerous turnovers.

But he's still a work in progress as an offensive point guard. Note than he had one assist and four turnovers last night, a pretty shaky ratio. At the end of a tight game, he tried to take over the game offensively and stopped looking for his teammates. Remember than Nolan was NOT a point guard last year at Oak Hill, so he's still figuring some things out. He brings a lot to the table and I strongly suspect that eventually he'll be a better alternative PG than were Scheyer and Nelson last season.

But Paulus is the starting point guard right now and I don't think it's close. He understands the system better, he's a better distributor, and going against Nolan every day in practice is just going to make him better.

BTW, don't assume that all of Nolan's points came against Paulus. There were numerous possessions when GP was guarding Scheyer and either Nelson or Henderson was guarding Smith. So Nolan can get inside against some pretty quick folks.

King is the biggest enigma to me. There was a flurry in the first half when I was thinking there was no way this kid wasn't going to play. But as the game progressed, Singler just kept having his way with him. King looked like he got tired down the stretch and the game WAS designed to stress folks. It's not like these guys are going to play 30 minutes without a sub and only a ten-minute halftime on a regular basis.

Or maybe Singler did a better job of adjusting to what King was doing than King did of adjusting to what Singler was doing. King does seem comfortable working in the post but it seems more like a 4 comfortable to me than a 5 comfortable. But I suspect we'll see Duke try Singler and King together inside some in games and see what happens. King may give up as many points as he scores but I sure wouldn't want to the post player assigned with chasing him around the perimeter. He sure can present some match-up problems.

Wander
10-28-2007, 02:52 PM
Nolan Smith can certainly defend point guards. He was very, very active defensively and forced numerous turnovers.

But he's still a work in progress as an offensive point guard. Note than he had one assist and four turnovers last night, a pretty shaky ratio. At the end of a tight game, he tried to take over the game offensively and stopped looking for his teammates. Remember than Nolan was NOT a point guard last year at Oak Hill, so he's still figuring some things out. He brings a lot to the table and I strongly suspect that eventually he'll be a better alternative PG than were Scheyer and Nelson last season.

But Paulus is the starting point guard right now and I don't think it's close. He understands the system better, he's a better distributor, and going against Nolan every day in practice is just going to make him better.

BTW, don't assume that all of Nolan's points came against Paulus. There were numerous possessions when GP was guarding Scheyer and either Nelson or Henderson was guarding Smith. So Nolan can get inside against some pretty quick folks.

That's a perfect summary. The only thing I'd add is my guess that Nolan is going to be in foul trouble often.

ACCBBallFan
10-28-2007, 03:02 PM
I like the offensive options a whole lot this year compared with last year.

2007 Henderson > 2006 Henderson
Singler > McRoberts (offensively for sure)
King > McClure (but hey, we should also get McClure back at some point)
2007 Scheyer > 2006 Scheyer, because of not having to play backup point
Smith should give us some added dribble penetration

I also think Nelson will be much better not having to carry as much of the scoring load. He may not score quite as much this year, but he'll not have to force as much either.

Hope we can keep everyone (except Nelson of course) around for the 08/09 season. All very true but you stopped short

Nelson will also benefit from having Nolan sub in for him in defending fastest guard occasionally

Healthy Paulus 2007 > Injured Paulus 2006

Comfortable Lance 2007 > Deer in Headlights 1 assist 43 turnovers Lance 2006

Too early to tell if Zoubek is improved, but expect when he gets into shape he will be a better player.

All will improve just by having enough depth to practice 5 vs 5 ACC caliber competition, particularly true of Paulus and Smith pushing one another, since there were enough perimeter guys last year.

Zoubek is only one who would benefit by having someone closer to his height/weight to practice against but playing against quicker guys should teach him the detriments of not holding the ball high, and dribbling too much.

Cameron
10-28-2007, 03:58 PM
2. We have several players who can truly erupt and take over games: King, Henderson, and Nelson come to mind first. Singler can as well, although he struck me as an assasin who can quietly destory you in many ways before you have a clue. I also envision Nolan Smith changing many games with flurries of tips,steals,and errant passes, sending Cameron into a frenzy, and the other team wilting away. We have a lot of talent.

I agree completely. But don't forget Jon. He's one of those guys who can absolutely take over a game within a quick two minute stretch. We saw evidence of this numerous times last season. The Miami game in Coral Gables comes to mind as well as Scheyer's 10 point flurry in about a minute and a half against Kent State. When he's on, it's lights out.

I also agree with the sentiments on DeMarcus above. I think now that he'll have the scoring load taken away from solely him and, instead, placed upon four or five other really good scorers as well, DeMarcus will be able to play so much better. He'll be able to play freely and let the offense come to him, which will in turn only make him a better player in all other areas.

I'm really excited at what this year will bring; I think it could be a good one. I almost feel as excited as I did going into JJs senior year, because, like that season, I have a good feeling going into this one that we could have some very exciting individual and team performances on any given night. This team has a chance to be special.

Jumbo
10-28-2007, 04:40 PM
Henderson is a defensive stud also with his great atheletism. Paulus is the only real liability on defense.

Athleticism does not equate to defensive ability. Henderson was not a "defensive stud" last season. Hopefully he will be this year.

Jumbo
10-28-2007, 04:47 PM
More perspective -- last year's Blue-White thread (http://www.snrub.com:81/ArchiveMirror/ViewThread.aspx?thread_id=45673).

SilkyJ
10-28-2007, 06:04 PM
Big Z's taking us to a National Championship.

Mark it down.

I hope so. if he can be effective, we go to the final four I think. If not, we're a handful of games better than last year...which is still a good season.

I didn't realize Marty was hurt. I knew he had surgery when paulus did in april or something, but I saw him on watzone's site in pickup games this summer. Did he re-injure something?

VaDukie
10-28-2007, 06:08 PM
I hope so. if he can be effective, we go to the final four I think. If not, we're a handful of games better than last year...which is still a good season.

I didn't realize Marty was hurt. I knew he had surgery when paulus did in april or something, but I saw him on watzone's site in pickup games this summer. Did he re-injure something?

Marty tweaked his ankle in the last week or so I beleive.

Saratoga2
10-28-2007, 07:49 PM
More perspective -- last year's Blue-White thread (http://www.snrub.com:81/ArchiveMirror/ViewThread.aspx?thread_id=45673).

Good reminder not to set expectations too high. Freshmen will play like freshmen normally do, that is, make mistakes and they will improve as the year goes on. We have three good ones and we also have more veterans this year. Looking forward to the season. It is nice to get the insight of those who actually witnessed the blue/white scrimmage.

SilkyJ
10-29-2007, 12:28 AM
Henderson is a defensive stud also with his great atheletism. Paulus is the only real liability on defense.

jumbo is right. henderson is super athletic but not that quick. great strength so he can guard guys that might be hard to guard for most 6'4 guards, but scouts i sat with last year said his lateral quickness is definitely lacking. I agree.

Could be a blessing in disguise though b/c demarcus has similar size and athletic ability but is a half step quicker. So while they are sort of interchangeable, when they play together, which will be a lot, on defense demarcus will more likely guard whoever is the quicker, more perimeter oriented of the opposing wings, and gerald will guard the bigger, more post-oriented player. I say this is good b/c gerald is actually quite good at blocking shots and b/c, not to jinx us, but demarcus has been a little injury prone and I'd prefer if he wasn't banging around down low all day.

Of course on the other hand demarcus is definitely a proven post defender and is a better rebounder, something we'll really need. Coach K actually had a recent comment about gerald needing to work on his rebounding. He had 28pts in an intrasquad, officially refereed, scrimmage but had no rebounds, K said.

we'll see which factors win out for K. Defending the perimeter will be huge without a stopper down low, but we'll need rebounding too. I think gerald can be a sufficient rebounder and that demarcus can still be effective enough rebounding from the perimeter that we do it like I've described, but I will admit that this will take an improvement in rebounding from 2006 for gerald.

OZZIE4DUKE
10-29-2007, 08:22 AM
A question not related to your previous post.

Sara,

Is there any insight you can provide on Marty's injured ankle? How serious and when is his expected return? If you have been asked not to reveal that information, either by Marty or the team, please just tell us that and we won't pry any further. But if you can say something, we'd love to know. Thanks.

greybeard
10-29-2007, 11:09 AM
Much of what Zoubek does that frustrates you guys is dictated by the foot, just as was the case with Paulus last year.

There was a line, an intro to a chapter, in The Chosen or The Promise, that went something like,

"to all the other fish, a fish caught on the end of a hook flailing around looks crazy, unless the other fish themselves have found themselves caught on the end of a hook."

Give the guy credit; it's no fun putting yourself out there even in practice before a few people when a bad foot or ankle or knee leads to "bad looking plays."

I said throughout last season that I thought that Paulus was being incredibly, incredibly brave to go out there one-footed last year and taking such heat for his sub par play. I thought that McRob showed somewhat less steal in facing his physical obstacles but still deserved people's admiration.

Zoubek could really use support and understanding. I'm sure Paulus will provide it. But will the Duke faithful?

Shammrog
10-29-2007, 11:28 AM
Redundant... Jason Williams was Jesus.


Actually, I think JWill was more explosive off the dribble.

Shammrog
10-29-2007, 11:32 AM
Athleticism does not equate to defensive ability. Henderson was not a "defensive stud" last season. Hopefully he will be this year.

Jumbo (or others who might know) - serious question here: Is Demarcus really (anywhere near) 6'4"? I think Duke is pretty honest re: player heights, having seen many of them up close over the years. But he really looks more like a 6'2.5" (in shoes!) type guy, albeit with very long arms. Not that it necessarily matters - it is only a measurement - but I have always thought Demarcus as not being that tall. At all.

?

greybeard
10-29-2007, 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos
Redundant... Jason Williams was Jesus.


Actually, I think JWill was more explosive off the dribble.
__________________
"I drank WHAT?!?"
-Socrates

Whoa, there children. There was only one second coming in NC, and that there happened in the sixties. Earl was his name, the Pearl was his moniker, except for those few who got to see the earth-defying manipulations in Winston-Salemn of the man they called "Black Jesus."

JWill was something else, but let's not get into no blaspheme here. :)

365Duke
10-29-2007, 01:10 PM
I think that everyone is overlooking the fact that D trained with a Navy Seal 2 summers ago:rolleyes:

Kilby
10-29-2007, 01:33 PM
Greybeard quote" Whoa, there children. There was only one second coming in NC, and that there happened in the sixties. Earl was his name, the Pearl was his moniker, except for those few who got to see the earth-defying manipulations in Winston-Salemn of the man they called "Black Jesus."

Greybeard:
I relayed a comment last week that in basketball being deceptive was more important than being fast. I thought at the time that Earl was the best example and I went on youtube to watch some clips. Sure did bring back memories. I can't say that I was as amazed as I remembered, but they didn't allow guards to carry the ball like they do today. Pearl handled the ball like it was on a string. Pete Maravich was no slouch either.

phaedrus
10-29-2007, 01:57 PM
I can't believe anyone is comparing King to McClure, defensively. This board was positively in love with McClure's defense last year.

King can knock down 25 footers all day, but it will take a lot more than that to show he is in McClure's league as a defender, either in the post or on the perimter.

elvis14
10-29-2007, 02:24 PM
I can't believe anyone is comparing King to McClure, defensively. This board was positively in love with McClure's defense last year.

King can knock down 25 footers all day, but it will take a lot more than that to show he is in McClure's league as a defender, either in the post or on the perimter.

I agree. I hope King plays defense really well this season but David McClure showed a great deal of defensive talent last year. The other thing with DM is that good things just happen around that kid. He always seems to be where the loose ball is. It seemed like every time something goofy happened and we ended up with the ball I'd check and DM was there. He's not a stats guy, he's a glue guy. As much as I'm excited to watch King Taylor nail 3's, what I really hope is that DM has improved his offense enough to keep himself on the court. Because we generally score more points than our opponents when he's out there. Didn't our season pretty much tank about the time he got hurt? Notice I have said nothing negative about King Taylor, I hope the kid's all that and bag of chips but I just really like Dave's game, especially on the defense end.

Also, I wanted to say thanks to everyone for posting impressions of the open practice and the Blue-White game.

greybeard
10-29-2007, 02:35 PM
Greybeard quote" Whoa, there children. There was only one second coming in NC, and that there happened in the sixties. Earl was his name, the Pearl was his moniker, except for those few who got to see the earth-defying manipulations in Winston-Salemn of the man they called "Black Jesus."

Greybeard:
I relayed a comment last week that in basketball being deceptive was more important than being fast. I thought at the time that Earl was the best example and I went on youtube to watch some clips. Sure did bring back memories. I can't say that I was as amazed as I remembered, but they didn't allow guards to carry the ball like they do today. Pearl handled the ball like it was on a string. Pete Maravich was no slouch either.

The things I remember about Monroe was that he wanted you close, real close, and then used the ball the way hustlers in three shell whatever they call it use the pea. And, in a single transport to shooting he would do things with the ball, his body, his eyes, his head, that got defender after defender to sell out, then cut that defender off and proceeded on to the next.

Among my favorite somewhat replicable moves of the Pearls was how he would dribble to the left side of the lane, with his behind in the defender, dribbling with his left hand sort of waddling along, making the better athlete defending him go slow, then as he was standing still, cup the ball between his left hand and wrist, spin on his left foot, with his right leg and shoulder coming tight, his right foot hitting hard somewhere near his left heal, bringing the ball straight across the defender's chest in his cupped left hand, to top of the head height where it would meet his right, his eyes and eyebrows would say the shot was coming, his shoulders, even a slight movement of his arms a tad higher, only his weight would be dead stuck to the ground, the defender would have to do something in reaction to this that would cause a shift in momentum, however slight, upwards, Earl would simply lean back, let his hands drop an inch, and be in perfect balance and without jumping, shoot it over anyone and in. Magical, godlike.

Of course, if the guy stayed down through it all, he would be nailed to the floor. He could no sooner react to the shot when it came than that statute of Abe Lincoln on the Mall.

That was one of the few that were staples and discernible to the naked eye.

Pete wasn't bad either, absolutely, but he could jump. I don't think Earl ever bothered.

bigj4194
10-29-2007, 02:48 PM
Zoubek is only one who would benefit by having someone closer to his height/weight to practice against but playing against quicker guys should teach him the detriments of not holding the ball high, and dribbling too much.

Having attended an open practice a week ago, watching the big men practice, especially Zoubek gave some insight into Zoubek...in the practice Zoubek was guarded by Singler, but couldn't do anything about it...Singler owned Zoubek every possession both on offense and defense...not a good sign

mgtr
10-29-2007, 08:21 PM
I always thought that the most remarkable thing about Earl Monroe was how he was able to dribble the ball totally out of sync with his stride. It might be faster or slower or jerkier, but it didn't match the motion of his feet. I have tried for years to do that, but never could come close (although I can rub my head and pat my stomach simultaneously, or vice versa).

gw67
10-30-2007, 07:57 AM
Greybeard - Your attention to detail in your description of the Pearl is amazing. I saw him play when he first came into the NBA with the Bullets. His ballhandling and associated body movements allowed him to get shots off against the best defenders in the NBA without the need to be fast or jump high and he had a wonderful touch from mid-range. His one-on-one moves were made for the NBA game and I recall that the Bullets announcer (Jim Karvellas?) would really get excited when Earl was in the open court against a single defender. He was literally unstoppable without defensive help and he may have been the player responsible for the term "shake and bake". With the Bullets, he didn't pay much attention to defense but with the Knicks he became a much better all around player. I rooted against the Knicks at that time but their starting five of Monroe, Clyde, Bradley, Debusschere and Reed was wonderfully skilled and team oriented.

gw67

greybeard
10-30-2007, 09:47 AM
Greybeard - Your attention to detail in your description of the Pearl is amazing. I saw him play when he first came into the NBA with the Bullets. His ballhandling and associated body movements allowed him to get shots off against the best defenders in the NBA without the need to be fast or jump high and he had a wonderful touch from mid-range. His one-on-one moves were made for the NBA game and I recall that the Bullets announcer (Jim Karvellas?) would really get excited when Earl was in the open court against a single defender. He was literally unstoppable without defensive help and he may have been the player responsible for the term "shake and bake". With the Bullets, he didn't pay much attention to defense but with the Knicks he became a much better all around player. I rooted against the Knicks at that time but their starting five of Monroe, Clyde, Bradley, Debusschere and Reed was wonderfully skilled and team oriented.

gw67

If I had any notable skill, it was my ability to watch and then use my body and figure out how it worked, why it was repeatable. Ended up, I had many, many, many different styles of play. That move of Earl's was one of my favorites. :o

ACCBBallFan
10-30-2007, 02:08 PM
Having attended an open practice a week ago, watching the big men practice, especially Zoubek gave some insight into Zoubek...in the practice Zoubek was guarded by Singler, but couldn't do anything about it...Singler owned Zoubek every possession both on offense and defense...not a good signAlso heard that Taylor King was pushing Zoubs around quite a bit during the box out drills.

So that's a good news bad news situation if Zoubek is less advanced but Singler and King are each decent post defenders.

I expect some minor improvements, nothing major, from Zoubek as he gets into game shape as he continues his rehab from off season surgery.

Singler also did a fine job on Ohio State's Kousfas and has the defensive range to also go one on one with Jarryd Bayless.

So yes, count on Kyle as either the 4 or 5 on both Offense and Defense. But who is his dance partner at the other 4 or 5?

Dave in a fine defender but has limited offense, has the most Duke experience, nose for the ball etc. and is currently injured.

Lance is probably going to be a better defender than last year as he learns to hedge without fouling, but not as good as McClure on Defense, though probably a slight improvement on Offense with a better 12-15 footer.

Regardless of how improved or unimproved Brian Zoubek is on both ends, probably can't count in him for more than about 15 MPG.

King of course has the most potential on Offense, and might be pretty effective as a post defender due to weight, longer arms etc. and even more likely a pretty poor perimeter defender for those type of PF's, and there are several in the ACC.

So when Singler and King are paired for mismatch offense, Singler probably defends the 4 and
King the 5.

So it seems clear that either:

1. Singler plays the 5 which puts him in more foul jeopardy and Duke is somewhat limited on Offense at the 4 with Lance or Dave, or possibly even micro small with Henderson (also putting him in more foul jeopardy) to give more PT to the other 5 perimeter guys, or

2. Singler plays the 4 backed up Lance of Dave and post defender is by committee, perhaps 40 minutes split in some combination of 15-10-15, maybe 10-10-20 among Zoubek, King and the other of McClure/Lance, with the order and the minutes varying based on opponent strength and weaknesses.

One way or another I suspect Zoubek and King play some role, perhaps 25 minutes total, rather than a 3-man post rotation of Singler-McClure-Lance or 4 man including Gerald.

lavell12
10-30-2007, 03:50 PM
Anybody know how Singler did against Kevin Love?

DukeVu
10-30-2007, 05:35 PM
McClure was a nice player for a time last year but injured is nothing to this team. McClure is just as much a liability on offense as will King be on defense, maybe more so. And King, being a Freshman, has plenty of room to improve which is the question. K's coaching on defense surely will make him better or improved. McClure is not going to be better than last year, even when he is healthy again. So why not hold off on your derogatory comments about King. Sheesh, that is only one scrimmage game you have witnessed. We will see soon enough when Duke scrimmages against other teams. As for Zoubek, coach K made a big mistake by not giving him more minutes last year. Now coupled with his injury and lack of playing time last year, he has a great mountain to climb. You 'experts' that can make such predictions with so little to work with just amaze us simpletons.

ACCBBallFan
10-30-2007, 05:39 PM
Anybody know how Singler did against Kevin Love?
Love scored a bundle and his team won their junior season and Singler's team won their senior season, but not many Kevin Love type post players other than Tyler and Hickson/McCauley on Duke's schedule.

Duke could, with not many other options to stop a post player anyway, do same thing they did against Indiana with Shelden giving up a bunch of post points but Duke giving up no 3's to win the game.

ACCBBallFan
10-30-2007, 05:49 PM
McClure was a nice player for a time last year but injured is nothing to this team. McClure is just as much a liability on offense as will King be on defense, maybe more so. And King, being a Freshman, has plenty of room to improve which is the question. K's coaching on defense surely will make him better or improved. McClure is not going to be better than last year, even when he is healthy again. So why not hold off on your derogatory comments about King. Sheesh, that is only one scrimmage game you have witnessed. We will see soon enough when Duke scrimmages against other teams. As for Zoubek, coach K made a big mistake by not giving him more minutes last year. Now coupled with his injury and lack of playing time last year, he has a great mountain to climb. You 'experts' that can make such predictions with so little to work with just amaze us simpletons.That was a no win literally with Zoubek. Duke barely scratched out an 8-8 ACC record and an NCAA bid. So a couple of more losses developing Zoubek and the critics would be just as vocal in other direction.

I share your opinion that Duke might have been just as effective or more so with twin towers of Zoubek and Josh, but not so strongly that i would call it a HOF coach making a big mistake, and playing Zoubek would have meant playing Lance less who also needed his development.

K took the course of relying on his more experienced McClure as he did in prior year with Melchionni.

Wth no Josh this year who he paired with McClure/lance, and no Shelden who he paired with Melchionni, I think Zoubek gets more PT out of necessity, rather than the big in lieu of Zoubek being primarily Singler, who is 20 pounds lighter and an inch or two shorter than Josh.

or if he does not, King does with the only other guys over 6'6 being Singler, Lance and McClure. I just don't see K going with just that 3-man rotation for bigs or 4 counting Gerald as a micro 4.

lavell12
10-30-2007, 05:49 PM
Well Handsborough really struggled and Zoubek last year in Cameron but for some reason K didn't play him and Josh at the same time so Wright went off on Thomas.

dukeENG2003
10-30-2007, 08:34 PM
I know this is the blue-white thread and not the red-white thread, but whoever posted the link to the red-white game highlights, thanks.

WOW

I'm not so sure I agree with the medias prediction of us finishing second in the ACC now. . .

ACCBBallFan
10-30-2007, 11:14 PM
I know this is the blue-white thread and not the red-white thread, but whoever posted the link to the red-white game highlights, thanks.

WOW

I'm not so sure I agree with the medias prediction of us finishing second in the ACC now. . .NC State optimism based on that link I posted has the same downside as Dukes B-W euphoria.

For every positive on offensive accomplishment, (Singler and King were guarding one another and scored 23 and 19, as were JJ Hickson and McCauley, and probably Costner and Grant) there is a corresponding weakness on Defense.

The other area that cannot be proven one way or the other until OOC play is two unproven PGs playing well against one another tells you nothing how they will play against an experienced PG.

ACC has 7 of them that State plays against in a total of 11 of its 16 ACC regular season games, and only 5 games against equally inexperienced PG's if you count Clemson's two games in the inexperienced column assuming Hammonds is the SG.

Otherwise if Ogelsby is their SG and Hammonds the PG, State plays experienced 13 against Singletary, Rice, Lawson, Paulus, Toney Douglas, Ish Smith, Vasquez/Hayes and Hammonds and inexperienced only 3 games,

a bad draw in that perspective getting GA T, Miami and VA Tech only once but all at home which is a plus against inexperienced PG's playing on the road, so pretty much guaranteed wins, especially since Ga Tech never wins on the road.

That said, I agree with you Duke and NC State are neck and neck for top 3 ACC finish, with UNC the leader but not necessarily a lock for first in ACC,

if State and Duke can minimize their respective weakness against other ACC teams even if not in their two games with UNC which also will be close and most enjoyable to watch.

greybeard
10-30-2007, 11:41 PM
I'll be very surprised if McClure's offense does not show much better this season. Ditto for Nelson's.