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SilkyJ
07-22-2018, 10:02 AM
Per the video in the Lebron Jr article on the front page (video link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=248&v=TkoL0QB5By4)).

Go to about the 3:36 mark. They have the shooting stats up on a board. Jack holds the single day record so far in FTs (40/40) 3s (124/140!) and total shooting (217/240). I'm assuming these stats are during drills in summer workouts.

The screen on the left is a bit blocked, but he seems to be shooting about 85% overall during this summer. Now these are likely during drills and unguarded, but still. Clearly he has a shooting stroke and he has good size and athleticism...could this be a case of the next Horvath-esque summer rumors or can he actually make an impact this year? He could make for a nice stretch forward this year, which is something we are lacking...

kAzE
07-22-2018, 12:58 PM
Oh my God, I saw this video and came here to post this exact same thing!

Except, I was going to put in the pie bet thread, because I made a bet on jack white’s minutes :)

Also, was that LeBron James Jr among those kids, or are my eyes playing tricks on me? We might be interested in his services in a few years.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-22-2018, 01:08 PM
.....some of us wouldn't have minded seeing some earlier minutes by Jack and AOC - in case, you know, Grayson and Gary went cold in a big NCAA game.......

richardjackson199
07-22-2018, 01:23 PM
Oh my God, I saw this video and came here to post this exact same thing!

Except, I was going to put in the pie bet thread, because I made a bet on jack white’s minutes :)

Also, was that LeBron James Jr among those kids, or are my eyes playing tricks on me? We might be interested in his services in a few years.

So I bet a pie that Joey Baker gets more minutes than Jack this year, and Jack starts shooting 85% and 100% from the FT line. You're welcome Jack.

It's a gift.

;)

If this shooting (and pie) pans out - great call Kaze. But it's a long season, so we'll see.

If Jack turns out to be a more athletic Steph Curry, that can only be great for this Duke team and will be worth (another) pie. So I'll pump the brakes on that and believe it when I see it. Ultimately I always want what's best for Duke.

smh

JasonEvans
07-22-2018, 02:29 PM
So I bet a pie that Joey Baker gets more minutes than Jack...

I’ve been hearing that Baker is likely to redshirt. So, ummm, I’d rate you a long shot in this bet.

BD80
07-22-2018, 03:08 PM
I’ve been hearing that Baker is likely to redshirt. So, ummm, I’d rate you a long shot in this bet.

Well, he's half the player Zion is - well 2/3. That is darn close to a literal statement.

His skills are somewhat redundant on the roster filled with 6'7" players. A year of maturation, eating and lifting would really help him.

Kedsy
07-22-2018, 03:10 PM
...some of us wouldn't have minded seeing some earlier minutes by Jack and AOC - in case, you know, Grayson and Gary went cold in a big NCAA game...

You are assuming that if NBA-bound Grayson Allen and Gary Trent went cold in a big NCAA game that Coach K (or any coach, really) would bench them in favor of the likes of Jack White (2017-18 version, adjusted for "earlier minutes"). That assumption has little (if any) basis in reality.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-22-2018, 03:44 PM
You are assuming that if NBA-bound Grayson Allen and Gary Trent went cold in a big NCAA game that Coach K (or any coach, really) would bench them in favor of the likes of Jack White (2017-18 version, adjusted for "earlier minutes"). That assumption has little (if any) basis in reality.

Actually, that's NOT my assumption......my assumption is the opposite......which is what happened. Attitude? Reading?

You know, Grayson came in as a little used freshman in a pretty significant game against Wisconsin if I recall......

chrishoke
07-22-2018, 03:51 PM
big difference in hitting threes in practice with no defense and hitting them in games.

OldPhiKap
07-22-2018, 04:11 PM
big difference in hitting threes in practice with no defense and hitting them in games.

True. All judgment should be deferred until the Blue-White game.

richardjackson199
07-22-2018, 04:39 PM
I’ve been hearing that Baker is likely to redshirt. So, ummm, I’d rate you a long shot in this bet.

I should probably stop making pie bets. The next time I get that urge I guess I'll just spring for an ESPN+ subscription instead.

Kedsy
07-22-2018, 05:03 PM
Attitude? Reading?

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but if the phrase "earlier minutes" has an obvious definition in the context of your sentence, then I guess it passed me by. I thought you meant "minutes earlier in the season." Did you instead mean, "minutes earlier in the game"? If so, I can't imagine how that could have cured a shooting slump by Grayson and Gary later in the game. If it's not either of those, then I have no idea what you meant, but my guess is neither would a lot of other people. Either way, the fact that the phrase had at least two possible meanings suggests that rather than a reading comprehension problem on my part, the "attitude" in question is yours.

UrinalCake
07-22-2018, 05:39 PM
If you’re really hurting for some summer video, here’s a clip of Jack and Cam playing HORSE, filmed by Zion. It’s mostly just them messing around. Jack has always had a pretty good looking stroke, but hitting them in games with a defender on you is of course a much different story. When he’s on the court, his role is to provide energy and hustle, not really to score, and he’s proven to be a pretty good rebounder too. Love what he brings to the team and I hope he can earn some more minutes. Last year he had a nice stretch where he exploded I think against Wake, and then he started the next game, but was eventually relegated again to mop up duty.

https://youtu.be/16U2ZzH0AOg

Rich
07-22-2018, 06:48 PM
If you’re really hurting for some summer video, here’s a clip of Jack and Cam playing HORSE, filmed by Zion. It’s mostly just them messing around. Jack has always had a pretty good looking stroke, but hitting them in games with a defender on you is of course a much different story. When he’s on the court, his role is to provide energy and hustle, not really to score, and he’s proven to be a pretty good rebounder too. Love what he brings to the team and I hope he can earn some more minutes. Last year he had a nice stretch where he exploded I think against Wake, and then he started the next game, but was eventually relegated again to mop up duty.

https://youtu.be/16U2ZzH0AOg

When will people learn to take video from their phone in landscape mode? I'm sure it's a nice fun diversion, but I can't even bear to watch the video.

proelitedota
07-22-2018, 08:05 PM
RJ's shooting stats is nearly identical to Bolden's. ��

proelitedota
07-22-2018, 08:37 PM
Name
FT
2s
3s


Joey Baker
67/80
120/140
209/280


RJ Barret
64/80
90/140
156/280


Marques Bolden
74/80
93/140
154/280


Javin Delaurier
55/80
48/140
132/280


Jordan Goldwire
51/80
88/120
158/280


Tre Jones
69/80
61/70
95/140


Alex O'Connel
72/80
100/140
170/280


Cam Reddish
74/80
118/140
192/280


Jack White
77/80
118/140
233/280


Zion Williamson
???
???
187/280



Zion is total is 333/500, which means that he shot 146 / 220 combined 2s and FTs.

CDu
07-22-2018, 09:05 PM
RJ's shooting stats is nearly identical to Bolden's. ��

Barrett is by no means considered a great shooter.

drummerdevil
07-22-2018, 10:57 PM
Name
FT
2s
3s


Joey Baker
67/80
120/140
209/280


RJ Barret
64/80
90/140
156/280


Marques Bolden
74/80
93/140
154/280


Javin Delaurier
55/80
48/140
132/280


Jordan Goldwire
51/80
88/120
158/280


Tre Jones
69/80
61/70
95/140


Alex O'Connel
72/80
100/140
170/280


Cam Reddish
74/80
118/140
192/280


Jack White
77/80
118/140
233/280


Zion Williamson
???
???
187/280



Zion is total is 333/500, which means that he shot 146 / 220 combined 2s and FTs.

Why did Tre shoot so many fewer shots than anyone else, and has Goldwire always been a poor free throw shooter?

HereBeforeCoachK
07-23-2018, 07:15 AM
Sorry if I misunderstood you, but if the phrase "earlier minutes" has an obvious definition in the context of your sentence, then I guess it passed me by. I thought you meant "minutes earlier in the season." Did you instead mean, "minutes earlier in the game"? If so, I can't imagine how that could have cured a shooting slump by Grayson and Gary later in the game. If it's not either of those, then I have no idea what you meant, but my guess is neither would a lot of other people. Either way, the fact that the phrase had at least two possible meanings suggests that rather than a reading comprehension problem on my part, the "attitude" in question is yours.

Well, you got half of it right...I did mean earlier minutes in the season, but - my assumption was that K would not do that, not that he would ever do that. Sorry if I was not clear. I'll call 'my bad' on that. We were ironically making the same point, just in totally different ways.

Here's my take on 3 point shooting, in general, not specific to Duke or to any coach or team or player:
That it's always good to have relief pitchers so to speak to bring off the bench if the starters are having a rough go of it shooting. Shooters are by nature streaky, and if the two starters are on a cold streak, perhaps the guys off the bench are having a good day, or would have a good day. Some time a sub coming in and hitting a single 3 can settle down the whole team. You never know...

In that particular game, Grayson and Gary were a combined 21%...roughly half what we could reasonably expect. It was clear they were not confident. I think there's always the chance that a good shooter off the bench just might be hot.... having a good day....we'll never know of course.

This analogy is not perfect, but Grayson versus Wisky was given the chance somewhat owing to foul trouble. He came off the bench - and as it turned out, was having a hot day, and he saved that Title game for Duke. His minutes late in the season...versus Mich State in the semis and his blow up against Wake late in the regular season...no doubt contributed to him being ready and able.

flyingdutchdevil
07-23-2018, 07:50 AM
Well, you got half of it right...I did mean earlier minutes in the season, but - my assumption was that K would not do that, not that he would ever do that. Sorry if I was not clear. I'll call 'my bad' on that. We were ironically making the same point, just in totally different ways.

Here's my take on 3 point shooting, in general, not specific to Duke or to any coach or team or player:
That it's always good to have relief pitchers so to speak to bring off the bench if the starters are having a rough go of it shooting. Shooters are by nature streaky, and if the two starters are on a cold streak, perhaps the guys off the bench are having a good day, or would have a good day. Some time a sub coming in and hitting a single 3 can settle down the whole team. You never know...

In that particular game, Grayson and Gary were a combined 21%...roughly half what we could reasonably expect. It was clear they were not confident. I think there's always the chance that a good shooter off the bench just might be hot... having a good day...we'll never know of course.

This analogy is not perfect, but Grayson versus Wisky was given the chance somewhat owing to foul trouble. He came off the bench - and as it turned out, was having a hot day, and he saved that Title game for Duke. His minutes late in the season...versus Mich State in the semis and his blow up against Wake late in the regular season...no doubt contributed to him being ready and able.

Whiskey wins every time. No one beats Whiskey.

Duke79UNLV77
07-23-2018, 08:01 AM
Bolden’s stats are eye-opening, too. 74 for 80 free throws for a guy who shot 59% last year. It seems he could shoot some jumpers, too.

I haven’t seen a lot of handles from White, but he’s a very fundamentally sound defensive rebounder, and if he can be a dangerous spot-up shooter from 3, he’ll be a solid rotation player.

Have we seen stats from this drill in prior years? I wonder how many Billy King made?

Spanarkel
07-23-2018, 08:19 AM
The stats show Javin hitting 34% from 2 and 47% from 3: very interesting.

OldPhiKap
07-23-2018, 09:00 AM
Whiskey wins every time. No one beats Whiskey.

"Women without whiskey . . .
whiskey's hard to beat."

-- DBT

kAzE
07-23-2018, 10:12 AM
Name
FT
2s
3s


Joey Baker
67/80
120/140
209/280


RJ Barret
64/80
90/140
156/280


Marques Bolden
74/80
93/140
154/280


Javin Delaurier
55/80
48/140
132/280


Jordan Goldwire
51/80
88/120
158/280


Tre Jones
69/80
61/70
95/140


Alex O'Connel
72/80
100/140
170/280


Cam Reddish
74/80
118/140
192/280


Jack White
77/80
118/140
233/280


Zion Williamson
???
???
187/280



Zion is total is 333/500, which means that he shot 146 / 220 combined 2s and FTs.

I know it's just a practice session, but I would never have guessed that Zion could comfortably top Alex O'Connell in 3 point shooting in any situation . . .

In fact, going by that chart, Zion was the 4th best 3 point shooter. (also, if Joey Baker is really going to redshirt, that would make Zion the 3rd best on the active roster)

What is going on here?? If this is for real, even if he's only really effective as a catch and shoot guy, Zion is a much more interesting player than I thought.

flyingdutchdevil
07-23-2018, 10:25 AM
I know it's just a practice session, but I would never have guessed that Zion could comfortably top Alex O'Connell in 3 point shooting in any situation . . .

In fact, going by that chart, Zion was the 4th best 3 point shooter. (also, if Joey Baker is really going to redshirt, that would make Zion the 3rd best on the active roster)

What is going on here?? If this is for real, even if he's only really effective as a catch and shoot guy, Zion is a much more interesting player than I thought.

I assume these numbers represent the best these players hit on a given day moreso than the summer average? In theory, the pecking order of shooters would follow this chart, but I'm not so sure. Zion could have gotten really, really hot one day. Or maybe AOC is focusing more on strength training than getting shots up. Or it may mean - as you theorized - Zion is a much better shooter than we thought.

Personally, my pecking order of shooters is as follows, all based on historical productivity at Duke and high school reputation:
-Cam Reddish
-AOC
-Jack White
-Tre
-RJ
-Zion
-Big men

I'm sure I'll be wrong somewhere.

jimsumner
07-23-2018, 10:57 AM
Bolden’s stats are eye-opening, too. 74 for 80 free throws for a guy who shot 59% last year. It seems he could shoot some jumpers, too.

I haven’t seen a lot of handles from White, but he’s a very fundamentally sound defensive rebounder, and if he can be a dangerous spot-up shooter from 3, he’ll be a solid rotation player.

Have we seen stats from this drill in prior years? I wonder how many Billy King made?

Yea, but nobody was guarding Bolden on the free throws in practice!!

Oh, wait.

Never mind.

devildeac
07-23-2018, 11:00 AM
Yea, but nobody was guarding Bolden on the free throws in practice!!

Oh, wait.

Never mind.

Might be a loooong year if we can't/don't/won't improve our FT defense. :rolleyes:

NSDukeFan
07-23-2018, 11:34 AM
Might be a loooong year if we can't/don't/won't improve our FT defense. :rolleyes:

I feel like some teams just refuse to work on their free throw defense. I don’t know if that’s on the coaches or if some players just can’t be reached.

jimsumner
07-23-2018, 11:42 AM
I feel like some teams just refuse to work on their free throw defense. I don’t know if that’s on the coaches or if some players just can’t be reached.

I've long maintained that Duke needs to play more zone in that situation.

UrinalCake
07-23-2018, 11:58 AM
Did they just walk up to the stripe and shoot 80 free throws in a row? Because that is a very different skill than shooting two at a time in between game action. Once you get into a rhythm then you’re just repeating the same motion. I did see in one of the DukeMBB videos that the shooting still had them shooting five or ten shots from various spots on the court, so at least they’re moving around some. But still, this type of drill is nowhere near the same as shooting one shot every few minutes.

Strongly disagree with the notion that a player should stop shooting if he misses his first couple shots, based on the notion that he is “cold.” First off, there’s no way to know that he’s cold until after the game when you look back. And secondly, there are plenty of examples of guys starting off cold and then heating up. Scheyer in the 2010 ACCT Final is a perfect example - started out 0-8 or 0-9 from three but then nailed the game winner in the final minute. If he had decided to stop shooting then he never puts that game away.

Steven43
07-23-2018, 12:45 PM
....some of us wouldn't have minded seeing some earlier minutes by Jack and AOC - in case, you know, Grayson and Gary went cold in a big NCAA game....
Still too soon, HBCK. Still too soon.

Newton_14
07-23-2018, 01:31 PM
I assume these numbers represent the best these players hit on a given day moreso than the summer average? In theory, the pecking order of shooters would follow this chart, but I'm not so sure. Zion could have gotten really, really hot one day. Or maybe AOC is focusing more on strength training than getting shots up. Or it may mean - as you theorized - Zion is a much better shooter than we thought.

Personally, my pecking order of shooters is as follows, all based on historical productivity at Duke and high school reputation:
-Cam Reddish
-AOC
-Jack White
-Tre
-RJ
-Zion
-Big men

I'm sure I'll be wrong somewhere.

Zion can shoot. Many people are going to be pleasantly surprised at how good.... Foul line and jumpers 2's and 3's...

OldPhiKap
07-23-2018, 01:35 PM
“Zion train is coming our way”

— Bob Marley

Troublemaker
07-23-2018, 01:51 PM
Zion can shoot. Many people are going to be pleasantly surprised at how good... Foul line and jumpers 2's and 3's...

I hope so my friend. I wrote several weeks ago that it would be surprising to see Coach K coach two consecutive teams that can't consistently stretch the floor with multiple shooters. Last season was good (Duke was the #3 kenpom team and came within a rimout of the Final Four) but it was un-Duke-like in many ways in terms of style of play. I'm hoping this upcoming team will be more recognizably Duke -- multiple good shooters, versatile 6'6" - 6'9" wings, ball pressure (Tre Jones) in a man-to-man defense.

cato
07-23-2018, 02:52 PM
“Zion train is coming our way”

— Bob Marley

I must admit I have been humming this to myself quite a bit

flyingdutchdevil
07-23-2018, 02:56 PM
“Zion train is coming our way”

— Pre November 6: AOC. Post November 6: Every single opponent

Changed it for you.

NSDukeFan
07-23-2018, 03:16 PM
I hope so my friend. I wrote several weeks ago that it would be surprising to see Coach K coach two consecutive teams that can't consistently stretch the floor with multiple shooters. Last season was good (Duke was the #3 kenpom team and came within a rimout of the Final Four) but it was un-Duke-like in many ways in terms of style of play. I'm hoping this upcoming team will be more recognizably Duke -- multiple good shooters, versatile 6'6" - 6'9" wings, ball pressure (Tre Jones) in a man-to-man defense.

I feel like ball pressure, generating turnovers creating fast break opportunities seem to be what every Duke team wants to do in the preseason but that doesn’t necessarily translate to the post-Christmas exam period. Neither does using the team’s depth tend to last very long.

budwom
07-23-2018, 03:34 PM
I feel like ball pressure, generating turnovers creating fast break opportunities seem to be what every Duke team wants to do in the preseason but that doesn’t necessarily translate to the post-Christmas exam period. Neither does using the team’s depth tend to last very long.


Yeah, I'm not sure where the shooters are going to come from, but anything could happen. Regarding the fast break, I think we ran that poorly last year, am desirous that Jones will be an improvement there.
So many attributes and question marks on this team, I won't even begin to guess how it plays out. But for sure we'll play 9-10 guys, we all know that!

CDu
07-23-2018, 03:41 PM
I hope so my friend. I wrote several weeks ago that it would be surprising to see Coach K coach two consecutive teams that can't consistently stretch the floor with multiple shooters. Last season was good (Duke was the #3 kenpom team and came within a rimout of the Final Four) but it was un-Duke-like in many ways in terms of style of play. I'm hoping this upcoming team will be more recognizably Duke -- multiple good shooters, versatile 6'6" - 6'9" wings, ball pressure (Tre Jones) in a man-to-man defense.

We have lots of 6'6"-6'9" guys, but I think it remains to be seen how many of them are good shooters. Barrett is known as a question mark as a shooter. Tre Jones as well. None of the guys (aside from maybe Baker, and he might redshirt) are considered knockdown shooters. There is a real possibility that this is a not very good shooting team. It's possible that several guys surprise and step up as shooters, too. But I think we should probably consider the possibility that we'll struggle with the jumpshots this year.

lmb
07-23-2018, 03:56 PM
“Zion train is coming our way”

— Bob Marley

Here's another:

"Now the joy of my world is in Zion"
- Lauryn Hill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAY06SYDjH0

kAzE
07-23-2018, 04:02 PM
Zion can shoot. Many people are going to be pleasantly surprised at how good... Foul line and jumpers 2's and 3's...

I think people are going to be surprised at his overall skill level, the whole package. People see his dunking highlights and immediately put him in to the category of players who are hyper-athletic, but extremely raw from a skill standpoint: guys like C.J Leslie, or Hamidou Diallo come to mind.

But offensively, Zion is so much more than those guys already. I've said it for a long time, but Zion's ball handling and passing is really good, and is going to create some very bad match up issues for opposing big men trying to guard him on the perimeter.

But even still, I did not think he would develop a jumper at this stage of his career. If the jumper is real, then he's an absolute monster on offense, and I don't know how you stop him.

His defense is still a mystery for the most part. Going by his size, it doesn't seem like he should be able to move laterally extremely well, but then again, he defies all logic with his insane vertical despite being 270+ pounds, so I really have no idea what he is defensively.

OZZIE4DUKE
07-23-2018, 05:31 PM
Might be a loooong year if we can't/don't/won't improve our FT defense. :rolleyes:


I feel like some teams just refuse to work on their free throw defense. I don’t know if that’s on the coaches or if some players just can’t be reached.


I've long maintained that Duke needs to play more zone in that situation.
The best free throw defense is more Speedo Guy! http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gifhttp://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gifhttp://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

subzero02
07-23-2018, 05:48 PM
Name
FT
2s
3s


Joey Baker
67/80
120/140
209/280


RJ Barret
64/80
90/140
156/280


Marques Bolden
74/80
93/140
154/280


Javin Delaurier
55/80
48/140
132/280


Jordan Goldwire
51/80
88/120
158/280


Tre Jones
69/80
61/70
95/140


Alex O'Connel
72/80
100/140
170/280


Cam Reddish
74/80
118/140
192/280


Jack White
77/80
118/140
233/280


Zion Williamson
???
???
187/280



Zion is total is 333/500, which means that he shot 146 / 220 combined 2s and FTs.


AOC was a little off that day from 3 point range

CajunDevil
07-23-2018, 05:50 PM
Listening to Drew Hanlen on the HoopsHype podcast talk about RJ's shot is encouraging. RJ "shining" vs NBA guys and beating some one-on-one was impressive as well. He will be unstoppable... can't wait to see him in a Duke uniform.

Also, if Jack's shot is as good as it appears (in the shooting drills) then he could garner some time in the rotation:

Tre
RJ
Cam
Zion
Bolden

AOC
DeLaurier
White

HereBeforeCoachK
07-23-2018, 06:51 PM
Might be a loooong year if we can't/don't/won't improve our FT defense. :rolleyes:

Watch some film of State's 83 Cardiac Pack NCAA run. Now Jimmy V and THAT TEAM could play some FT defense.....

OldPhiKap
07-23-2018, 07:21 PM
The best free throw defense is more Speedo Guy! http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gifhttp://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gifhttp://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

“At what price, victory?”

OZZIE4DUKE
07-23-2018, 07:43 PM
The best free throw defense is more Speedo Guy! http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gifhttp://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gifhttp://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif


“At what price, victory?”
Whatever it takes!

OldPhiKap
07-23-2018, 07:52 PM
Whatever it takes!

Okay, then, if I have to offer my services . . . .

devildeac
07-23-2018, 07:55 PM
Okay, then, if I have to offer my services . . . .

Oh, no! Not the "Eat Me" shirt again. :eek:

OldPhiKap
07-23-2018, 08:41 PM
Oh, no! Not the "Eat Me" shirt again. :eek:

Upgraded to the OPK 88/9F shirt, thanks to wonderful family in Raleigh (and @ Duke).

The Eat Me cake costume batted .500 — win in South Bend, right loss against FSU in Wally Wade.

UrinalCake
07-23-2018, 10:34 PM
Here's a breakdown of Zion's weaknesses. Warning: it's highly critical, and will make you think Zion shoots 0%.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFeyHQaPAwU

OldPhiKap
07-23-2018, 10:43 PM
Here's a breakdown of Zion's weaknesses. Warning: it's highly critical, and will make you think Zion shoots 0%.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFeyHQaPAwU

Revising my minutes projection accordingly . . . .



Never heard of the guy putting out the video — what are his creds?

gep
07-24-2018, 12:43 AM
***Here's a breakdown of Zion's weaknesses. Warning: it's highly critical, and will make you think Zion shoots 0%.***

Well... the guy did mention "quick second jump" twice... so that might be a good thing. But if his shot selection and poor shooting in those clips occur in Duke games, I don't think he plays much.:cool:

And, if the games in the clip are all-star games, I can see where he will just put up shots regardless of outcome. But the comment on consistently using his left-hand might be concerning.

CDu
07-24-2018, 07:39 AM
***Here's a breakdown of Zion's weaknesses. Warning: it's highly critical, and will make you think Zion shoots 0%.***

Well... the guy did mention "quick second jump" twice... so that might be a good thing. But if his shot selection and poor shooting in those clips occur in Duke games, I don't think he plays much.:cool:

And, if the games in the clip are all-star games, I can see where he will just put up shots regardless of outcome. But the comment on consistently using his left-hand might be concerning.

None of the clips were from all-star games. They were from AAU tournament games. For whatever that is worth.

Indoor66
07-24-2018, 08:19 AM
IMO these clips have as much value as the clips where everything he throws up goes in and he grabs every rebound and blocks every shot. I consider this stuff to be pure click bait.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-24-2018, 08:21 AM
Here's a breakdown of Zion's weaknesses. Warning: it's highly critical, and will make you think Zion shoots 0%.

Well that was disturbing. Couple thoughts:
A: the guy was critical, but he seemed to take no pleasure in his critique. It was not a Zion hit piece.
B: Zion looked terrible in the video, but of course, the video was about his weaknesses. He did look bored and tired to me, as if he needs to step away from the game for a few weeks to refresh. (which he likely won't get).
C: This will be interesting to follow in Canada.....

dukelifer
07-24-2018, 08:57 AM
***Here's a breakdown of Zion's weaknesses. Warning: it's highly critical, and will make you think Zion shoots 0%.***

Well... the guy did mention "quick second jump" twice... so that might be a good thing. But if his shot selection and poor shooting in those clips occur in Duke games, I don't think he plays much.:cool:

And, if the games in the clip are all-star games, I can see where he will just put up shots regardless of outcome. But the comment on consistently using his left-hand might be concerning.

Zion’s overall game is very raw. I think even he knows this. But he is strong, wide and bouncy and will be a tough cover in the college game. He will need to become a much better shooter to have a long pro career.

OldPhiKap
07-24-2018, 09:09 AM
I will again ask -- what are the creds of the guy putting together the video?

Zion is a top-5 player and a McD AA. Does he have a lot to learn? Obviously. Is he a seriously flawed player? Not close to it.

I have no problem with someone trying to break down weaknesses in players -- in fact I think it's healthy -- but I would really like to know the qualifications of the guy putting together the video.

Oh, and Jack White is a player who will be a spark whenever he is on the floor. Hope he earns more PT because he is fun to watch.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-24-2018, 09:14 AM
I will again ask -- what are the creds of the guy putting together the video?


This is blurb on him: "Lead writer and founder for a NBA front office site focusing on scouting, trade reviews, player and game evaluations, and other general NBA front office activities."

Upon further review, he is a basketball geek who is building a reputation as evaluator, however, he is only 9 months into this career officially. So to your question about the cred? Too early to tell, but it's not exactly on par with, say, Hubie Brown.

UrinalCake
07-24-2018, 09:17 AM
If you've only ever watched mixtapes of guys dunking then this video will seem pretty shocking. Typically these types of analyses are done through the lens of NBA scouts projecting a player at the next level, thus the bar is set much higher. But usually they'll talk about both strengths and weaknesses of a player, so it appears more balanced. I would assume that there is an accompanying "Zion Williamson Strengths" video somewhere out there.

Frankie Vision does a ton of game highlight and compilation videos. It looks like he is publishing this video from Spencer Pearlman. I've never watched one of his player breakdowns so I can't speak for how good he is.

OldPhiKap
07-24-2018, 09:23 AM
This is blurb on him: "Lead writer and founder for a NBA front office site focusing on scouting, trade reviews, player and game evaluations, and other general NBA front office activities."

Upon further review, he is a basketball geek who is building a reputation as evaluator, however, he is only 9 months into this career officially. So to your question about the cred? Too early to tell, but it's not exactly on par with, say, Hubie Brown.

Thanks HBFK, that's what I was looking for.

DavidBenAkiva
07-24-2018, 10:01 AM
This is blurb on him: "Lead writer and founder for a NBA front office site focusing on scouting, trade reviews, player and game evaluations, and other general NBA front office activities."

Upon further review, he is a basketball geek who is building a reputation as evaluator, however, he is only 9 months into this career officially. So to your question about the cred? Too early to tell, but it's not exactly on par with, say, Hubie Brown.

The same guy did put together a long video of Zion's strengths. I find his mix of analysis and videos to be similar but not quite as well produced as Mike Schmitz, formerly of Draft Express and more recently of ESPN. It's a good approach if a little formulaic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3Iijy2zCrE

One thing that I have noticed in Zion videos is how he keeps the ball really low to the ground when he dribbles. He dribbles like a point guard but with the size of an NFL tight end. It's quite a site to behold. I agree with the video that Zion is going to be an elite grab-and-go rebounder. When he snatches a defensive rebound, he can quickly turn up the court and lead the break. That's a heck of a skill for a guy that will primarily be playing around the post. Zion is far more skilled than just an athletic dunker.

CDu
07-24-2018, 10:05 AM
This is blurb on him: "Lead writer and founder for a NBA front office site focusing on scouting, trade reviews, player and game evaluations, and other general NBA front office activities."

Upon further review, he is a basketball geek who is building a reputation as evaluator, however, he is only 9 months into this career officially. So to your question about the cred? Too early to tell, but it's not exactly on par with, say, Hubie Brown.


If you've only ever watched mixtapes of guys dunking then this video will seem pretty shocking. Typically these types of analyses are done through the lens of NBA scouts projecting a player at the next level, thus the bar is set much higher. But usually they'll talk about both strengths and weaknesses of a player, so it appears more balanced. I would assume that there is an accompanying "Zion Williamson Strengths" video somewhere out there.

Frankie Vision does a ton of game highlight and compilation videos. It looks like he is publishing this video from Spencer Pearlman. I've never watched one of his player breakdowns so I can't speak for how good he is.

In watching the analysis, I would say that it seems pretty sound. Just because he's not a household name doesn't mean he's wrong. As UrinalCake notes, there is presumably a "strengths" video out there (or coming soon). But nothing in that analysis seems wrong. And even in the "weaknesses" section, there are some positives notably related to his shooting stroke.

DukieInBrasil
07-24-2018, 11:14 AM
Did Jack White somehow turn into Zion Williamson? Cuz if we have 2 Zion Williamsons now that would be pretty cool.

phaedrus
07-24-2018, 11:29 AM
In watching the analysis, I would say that it seems pretty sound. Just because he's not a household name doesn't mean he's wrong. As UrinalCake notes, there is presumably a "strengths" video out there (or coming soon). But nothing in that analysis seems wrong. And even in the "weaknesses" section, there are some positives notably related to his shooting stroke.

In his "Strengths" video, he says Zion has "the best combination of size and athleticism since Lebron James." Not exactly a hot take, but he sure doesn't seem unfair to Zion.

cato
07-24-2018, 11:32 AM
In his "Strengths" video, he says Zion has "the best combination of size and athleticism since Lebron James." Not exactly a hot take, but he sure doesn't seem unfair to Zion.

Not at all unfair. Both pieces were a bit repetitive and dry, but informative.

JayZee
07-24-2018, 01:25 PM
Those videos seem pretty balanced. Clearly Zion has some work to do to continue to improve.

A couple reasons why I'm not worried.

1 - In one of the Duke MBB videos, the coaches (Nate?) were working on Zion driving and kicking. Clearly he has such gravity on his drives that there will be open shots.

2 - In AAU, he was always the alpha on his team. RJ looks like he is probably the alpha on this year's team. And, also from the videos, it seems like Zion looks really comfortable with RJ being the guy. I'm surely reading too much into it, but Zion almost looks relieved to have a guy like RJ.

3 - As mentioned earlier, he has a great handle and some shake for a guy his size. It's not just power bull rushing the basket. He is shifty. At that size.

I think this team is just going to be fun. At least the freshman seem to really get along. Hard to tell about the upperclassmen.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-24-2018, 01:30 PM
Not at all unfair. Both pieces were a bit repetitive and dry, but informative.

VERY repetitive......could have been two thirds shorter. But I agree, informative and fair.

kAzE
07-24-2018, 01:34 PM
Those videos seem pretty balanced. Clearly Zion has some work to do to continue to improve.

A couple reasons why I'm not worried.

1 - In one of the Duke MBB videos, the coaches (Nate?) were working on Zion driving and kicking. Clearly he has such gravity on his drives that there will be open shots.

2 - In AAU, he was always the alpha on his team. RJ looks like he is probably the alpha on this year's team. And, also from the videos, it seems like Zion looks really comfortable with RJ being the guy. I'm surely reading too much into it, but Zion almost looks relieved to have a guy like RJ.

3 - As mentioned earlier, he has a great handle and some shake for a guy his size. It's not just power bull rushing the basket. He is shifty. At that size.

I think this team is just going to be fun. At least the freshman seem to really get along. Hard to tell about the upperclassmen.

I agree with all of this. I don't think there's much to worry about with Zion from an offensive standpoint. Even the favoring his left hand thing is not an issue for me. He's clearly a good finisher with his right hand, as he showed in the McDonald's AA dunk contest. It's probably more of a mental thing, where he just needs to trust his right hand more.

However, I am somewhat concerned about his defense. It might be okay, or it might be brutally bad. If he's guarding 4s and 5s for the most part, I'm not as worried, but if he gets switched on to perimeter guys (and he surely will), I am a little skeptical. Hopefully RJ and Tre can make up for it.

CajunDevil
07-24-2018, 04:33 PM
I agree with all of this. I don't think there's much to worry about with Zion from an offensive standpoint. Even the favoring his left hand thing is not an issue for me. He's clearly a good finisher with his right hand, as he showed in the McDonald's AA dunk contest. It's probably more of a mental thing, where he just needs to trust his right hand more.

However, I am somewhat concerned about his defense. It might be okay, or it might be brutally bad. If he's guarding 4s and 5s for the most part, I'm not as worried, but if he gets switched on to perimeter guys (and he surely will), I am a little skeptical. Hopefully RJ and Tre can make up for it.

Good point, but I'm not worried about his defense because Duke should be effective playing zone. And, with Duke's length, quickness, and, lack of time in the Duke program, a zone may be the preferred defense anyway. A zone could also allow Zion to be in position to be an extremely effective weak-side shot blocker, and potentially lead to ridiculous fast-breaks.

kAzE
07-24-2018, 04:44 PM
Good point, but I'm not worried about his defense because Duke should be effective playing zone. And, with Duke's length, quickness, and, lack of time in the Duke program, a zone may be the preferred defense anyway. A zone could also allow Zion to be in position to be an extremely effective weak-side shot blocker, and potentially lead to ridiculous fast-breaks.

It's possible that we could go back to a full-time zone, but I highly suspect that Coach K will try his darnedest to make them play M2M. If it just turns out we can't do it, then the concession would be switch to a full time zone, as we did last year.

However, there are a couple of things that make me think this team could make the M2M scheme work out. First, they are going to have a lot of time to practice, thanks to the Canada trip. This will allow the team months of time to get used to Coach K's defensive system. Months that last years' team didn't have, because Bagley arrived late, and we canceled the Domincan trip.

Second, RJ Barrett is a defensive stud. Everything I've heard and every game I've watched him play, he's the real deal. His length and anticipation is excellent, he plays with a motor that never stops and is always giving his best effort. When your best player is doing that, it often rubs off on other guys. Tre Jones has also been known to be a pesky defender, so between those 2 guys, it's a pretty good start.

Cam Reddish clearly has the tools to be a great defender. Hopefully, being on a team with RJ, Tre, and the Duke coaches can bring that out of him. RJ and Cam both have the quickness, size, and length to guard multiple positions, so those two guys are very switch-friendly.

Zion is a question mark, so that's still up in the air. Bolden is a pretty good rim protector, but I worry about him in the P & R, as you would with any plodding big man.

I'm sure we will play some zone. We'll have to see how it all fits together, but I'm somewhat optimistic that we won't have to resort to it on a full-time basis again. It's nice when you can pull it out after a time out to confuse the other team, but it's not always the ideal scheme to go to full-time. There are a lot of ways to exploit the zone that I'm sure Coach K would prefer to not have to deal with again, if we can play some good M2M.

budwom
07-24-2018, 04:54 PM
good points to be sure, but I have deep suspicions about the ability of a group of OADs to play good, rotational M2M. My pure guess is that the sooner we go to zone, the better. These guys have the length and athleticism to play a terrific zone.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-24-2018, 05:22 PM
Good point, but I'm not worried about his defense because Duke should be effective playing zone. And, with Duke's length, quickness, and, lack of time in the Duke program, a zone may be the preferred defense anyway. A zone could also allow Zion to be in position to be an extremely effective weak-side shot blocker, and potentially lead to ridiculous fast-breaks.

A zone saves your legs a bit for offense too......I mean, I loved the great M2M D that Duke has played over the many years, but if you don't have the horses for it, you can't do it.

ElSid
07-24-2018, 05:29 PM
Bolden is a pretty good rim protector, but I worry about him in the P & R, as you would with any plodding big man.



Bolden was surprisingly good in the P & R. Capel even pointed that out in the video session they shared on social media. He stepped out and hedged well last year and his freshman year and managed to stay in front of guys. I think he could be a very good defender this year.

I'm definitely not anti-zone. The numbers didn't lie last year. Wendell was a major contributor, though. As center low man on the zone he forced everyone to either shoot a bad 12 footer or try to challenge him, and then he often got a block / steal. We'll miss him in a zone.

kAzE
07-24-2018, 05:38 PM
Bolden was surprisingly good in the P & R. Capel even pointed that out in the video session they shared on social media. He stepped out and hedged well last year and his freshman year and managed to stay in front of guys. I think he could be a very good defender this year.

I'm definitely not anti-zone. The numbers didn't lie last year. Wendell was a major contributor, though. As center low man on the zone he forced everyone to either shoot a bad 12 footer or try to challenge him, and then he often got a block / steal. We'll miss him in a zone.

Yeah, I agree, Bolden wasn't bad at all in limited spurts of playing time, but it's different when you're the starter, playing against the other team's starters, and playing extended minutes. We'll have to see if he can maintain that level of effort with a bigger role.

The good news is that he's now a junior, so both he and Javin should be quite familiar with the system, and hopefully be vocal leaders on defense.

ElSid
07-24-2018, 05:47 PM
Yeah, I agree, Bolden wasn't bad at all in limited spurts of playing time, but it's different when you're the starter, playing against the other team's starters, and playing extended minutes. We'll have to see if he can maintain that level of effort with a bigger role.

The good news is that he's now a junior, so both he and Javin should be quite familiar with the system, and hopefully be vocal leaders on defense.

Right. Gotta figure his conditioning will be at its peak since we've known him if he's indeed healthy all summer. That'll help. Probably a virtuous cycle where better conditioning means fewer fouls means more playing time, so on.

IIRC he fouled at a pretty high rate. For some reason I'm rooting for him the hardest this year. Maybe because of all the transfer chatter, I want it to work out that he made the right decision staying, for his and the team's sake.

dukelifer
07-25-2018, 09:16 AM
Yeah, I agree, Bolden wasn't bad at all in limited spurts of playing time, but it's different when you're the starter, playing against the other team's starters, and playing extended minutes. We'll have to see if he can maintain that level of effort with a bigger role.

The good news is that he's now a junior, so both he and Javin should be quite familiar with the system, and hopefully be vocal leaders on defense.

Who are considered the best big men left in college ball? Good chance that Bolden and DeLaurier will be right up there.

CDu
07-25-2018, 09:50 AM
Who are considered the best big men left in college ball? Good chance that Bolden and DeLaurier will be right up there.

Maybe. There are some good ones. Kansas has Udoka Azubuike and Dedric Lawson. Arkansas has Daniel Gafford. UNC has Luke Maye. Kentucky has Reid Travis. MSU has Nick Ward. Missouri has Jontay Porter. USC has Bennie Boatright. I'd rate all of those guys (at the college level, at least) comfortably above either Bolden or (especially) DeLaurier. Then there are guys like Nazreon Reid (LSU), Bruno Fernando (Maryland), Kerry Blackshear (Va Tech), Malik Williams (Louisville), and many others that I'm too lazy to think about that would be in the discussion as well.

4Gen
07-25-2018, 10:10 AM
I didn't know where to put this, but since one of Bronny James' teammates, all seventh graders, visited Duke and one of them commented: Jack White can shoot", then here goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkoL0QB5By4&feature=youtu.be

flyingdutchdevil
07-25-2018, 10:15 AM
I didn't know where to put this, but since one of Bronny James' teammates, all seventh graders, visited Duke and one of them commented: Jack White can shoot", then here goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkoL0QB5By4&feature=youtu.be

I assume you didn't read the first post of this thread?

kAzE
07-25-2018, 10:16 AM
I didn't know where to put this, but since one of Bronny James' teammates, all seventh graders, visited Duke and one of them commented: Jack White can shoot", then here goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkoL0QB5By4&feature=youtu.be

This is the video that started this thread ;)

dukelifer
07-25-2018, 01:33 PM
Maybe. There are some good ones. Kansas has Udoka Azubuike and Dedric Lawson. Arkansas has Daniel Gafford. UNC has Luke Maye. Kentucky has Reid Travis. MSU has Nick Ward. Missouri has Jontay Porter. USC has Bennie Boatright. I'd rate all of those guys (at the college level, at least) comfortably above either Bolden or (especially) DeLaurier. Then there are guys like Nazreon Reid (LSU), Bruno Fernando (Maryland), Kerry Blackshear (Va Tech), Malik Williams (Louisville), and many others that I'm too lazy to think about that would be in the discussion as well.

I guess is depends on ones definition of a big man.

CDu
07-25-2018, 01:34 PM
I guess is depends on ones definition of a big man.

Well, since you listed a PF (DeLaurier) and a C (Bolden), I limited it to PFs and Cs, and most of those guys were Cs.

kAzE
07-25-2018, 03:36 PM
https://youtu.be/jXAUHPNTyAw

Here's a video of Jon Scheyer coaching the kids during the drill that resulted in the table we saw in the other video. Apparently, Jack White broke the previous record for this particular drill, which happened to belong to Jon himself.

There's a bunch of behind the scenes type videos in that youtube channel with the team.

There's also a really interesting one about the K Lab, I would highly recommend checking that one out.

CDu
07-25-2018, 03:46 PM
https://youtu.be/jXAUHPNTyAw

Here's a video of Jon Scheyer coaching the kids during the drill that resulted in the table we saw in the other video. Apparently, Jack White broke the previous record for this particular drill, which happened to belong to Jon himself.

There's a bunch of behind the scenes type videos in that youtube channel with the team.

There's also a really interesting one about the K Lab, I would highly recommend checking that one out.

Minor comment, but I think Scheyer was saying that he and Nolan also did the drill with them this year and shot 80% and 79.8%. So White topped what those two guys did currently. Scheyer concludes the video saying "that's the record for today", so not necessarily the record ever.

Of course, it may be that this is a relatively new thing that they are doing "officially", in which case it may well still be a record.

kAzE
07-25-2018, 03:50 PM
Minor comment, but I think Scheyer was saying that he and Nolan also did the drill with them this year and shot 80% and 79.8%. So White topped what those two guys did currently. Scheyer concludes the video saying "that's the record for today", so not necessarily the record ever.

Of course, it may be that this is a relatively new thing that they are doing "officially", in which case it may well still be a record.

Hm, just re-watched that part, I think you're right. Although 86.8% is pretty remarkable. Jack either had an out of body experience or he's a legit shooter now.

I'd love to see Trajan, Jayson, and J.J. compete in that drill.

CDu
07-25-2018, 03:52 PM
Hm, just re-watched that part, I think you're right. Although 86.8% is pretty remarkable. Jack either had an out of body experience or he's a legit shooter now.

I'd love to see Trajan, Jayson, and J.J. compete in that drill.

Oh no doubt that's really good shooting.

UrinalCake
07-25-2018, 08:34 PM
As I've stated before, I think that shooting in practice drills is a different skill than shooting in a game. There's a lot of overlap, but it's not a 100% overlap. As a corollary, I remember hearing that Wade Boggs could hit home runs in batting practice at will, that he would have won the Home Run Derby every single year had he ever been invited, but he never was because he wasn't considered a power hitter. It's possible that Jack White is the Wade Boggs of three point shooting.

bedeviled
07-25-2018, 09:54 PM
It's possible that Jack White is the Wade Boggs of three point shootingThis brings SilkyJ's Horvath reference back to mind.

After a quick search...Here's a lovely little interview of Horvath entitled 'Once a physicist: Nick Horvath (http://www.iop.org/careers/workinglife/profiles/page_37723.html).' I somehow missed it when printed in Physics World in 2009 :rolleyes:. Not wanting to resurrect the 2008 'Horvath update' thread with 10-yr-old info, I'll just leave the link here. But, it could also be tossed in with the old school vs one-and-done discussions or with one of DBR's various allusions to Schrödinger’s cat.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-25-2018, 11:26 PM
As I've stated before, I think that shooting in practice drills is a different skill than shooting in a game. There's a lot of overlap, but it's not a 100% overlap. As a corollary, I remember hearing that Wade Boggs could hit home runs in batting practice at will, that he would have won the Home Run Derby every single year had he ever been invited, but he never was because he wasn't considered a power hitter. It's possible that Jack White is the Wade Boggs of three point shooting.

I would add that Jack White shot the ball well in Australia in games....so it's a matter of having the in game reps and in game minutes here, at this level of competition. He clearly can physically do the skill very well. He's big enough and has enough ups to get his shot off in games.

SilkyJ
07-26-2018, 12:25 AM
I didn't know where to put this, but since one of Bronny James' teammates, all seventh graders, visited Duke and one of them commented: Jack White can shoot", then here goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkoL0QB5By4&feature=youtu.be

You have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie...

In other words. Go read the first post in this thread (written by me!)

SilkyJ
07-26-2018, 12:26 AM
This brings SilkyJ's Horvath reference back to mind.

After a quick search...Here's a lovely little interview of Horvath entitled 'Once a physicist: Nick Horvath (http://www.iop.org/careers/workinglife/profiles/page_37723.html).' I somehow missed it when printed in Physics World in 2009 :rolleyes:. Not wanting to resurrect the 2008 'Horvath update' thread with 10-yr-old info, I'll just leave the link here. But, it could also be tossed in with the old school vs one-and-done discussions or with one of DBR's various allusions to Schrödinger’s cat.

Can't believe Throaty's Manifesto is so hard to find these days, but this is a clear case of needing to reference Appendix-D (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?10527-DBR-Manifesto-(AKA-Throaty-s-Handy-Pocket-Reference)&p=672204#post672204)!!!

bedeviled
07-26-2018, 03:35 AM
Can't believe Throaty's Manifesto is so hard to find these days, but this is a clear case of needing to reference Appendix-D (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?10527-DBR-Manifesto-(AKA-Throaty-s-Handy-Pocket-Reference)&p=672204#post672204)!!!Rest assured that your summer Horvath reference was apt, understood, and appreciated. My search was not to make sense of the reference; it was for updated Horvath info, a curiosity inspired because the Boggs story brought the summer-Horvath phenomenon to mind again.

OZZIE4DUKE
07-26-2018, 07:34 AM
Can't believe Throaty's Manifesto is so hard to find these days, but this is a clear case of needing to reference Appendix-D (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?10527-DBR-Manifesto-(AKA-Throaty-s-Handy-Pocket-Reference)&p=672204#post672204)!!!
So glad I posted that! It’s still on my computer.

Interesting how relevant 6i and 6j are to today’s threads. Of course, 9F is ALWAYS relevant!

thedukelamere
07-26-2018, 09:39 AM
As I've stated before, I think that shooting in practice drills is a different skill than shooting in a game. There's a lot of overlap, but it's not a 100% overlap. As a corollary, I remember hearing that Wade Boggs could hit home runs in batting practice at will, that he would have won the Home Run Derby every single year had he ever been invited, but he never was because he wasn't considered a power hitter. It's possible that Jack White is the Wade Boggs of three point shooting.

But can Jack White drink 50 beers on the flight to Maui and then absolutely destroy San Diego State the next day??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5bI1UPu2MI

elvis14
07-26-2018, 10:21 AM
For Jack White, my impression last season was that he played good, tough defense and rebounded well but that he didn't shoot well and really didn't do too much on the offensive end of the court. We will never know if he would have provided more offense if he was left on the court for longer stretches more often. This coming season, I would say that if Jack wants to see more playing time then he's going to have to earn it by adding more offense to his game. We have so much talent coming in again (and, sadly, leaving after this year) that it's not going to be easy for him but as a Jr, he can be a leader (even if he isn't a leader in minutes played). Personally, I would love it if Jack and AOC improved to much that we can't keep them off the court. What a great problem to have!

JasonEvans
07-26-2018, 11:32 AM
For Jack White, my impression last season was that he played good, tough defense and rebounded well but that he didn't shoot well...

Come on! He hit 16% of his 3s. How much better do you want him to shoot?

;)

kAzE
07-26-2018, 12:11 PM
For Jack White, my impression last season was that he played good, tough defense and rebounded well but that he didn't shoot well and really didn't do too much on the offensive end of the court. We will never know if he would have provided more offense if he was left on the court for longer stretches more often. This coming season, I would say that if Jack wants to see more playing time then he's going to have to earn it by adding more offense to his game. We have so much talent coming in again (and, sadly, leaving after this year) that it's not going to be easy for him but as a Jr, he can be a leader (even if he isn't a leader in minutes played). Personally, I would love it if Jack and AOC improved to much that we can't keep them off the court. What a great problem to have!

Well, if he can hit catch-and-shoot 3s anything close to 40% of the time, that's going to cement him firmly in the rotation as a floor spacer. This team has plenty of guys who can do things with the ball, but no one who can stand in the corner and knock down jumpers. 3 and D role players are always welcome, but are even more valuable when you have guys like RJ, Cam, Tre, and Zion.

He's going to be especially valuable if he plays power forward most of the time (and I think he will), because if his jumper is for real, he's going to be drawing a big guy out of the paint, and we really, really, want that.

UrinalCake
07-26-2018, 12:39 PM
But can Jack White drink 50 beers on the flight to Maui and then absolutely destroy San Diego State the next day??

Like David Thompson leaving change on the backboard, I have to think that story is an exaggeration. Maybe we can all agree to do some “research” to determine if anything remotely close would be possible.

jimsumner
07-26-2018, 12:45 PM
This brings SilkyJ's Horvath reference back to mind.

After a quick search...Here's a lovely little interview of Horvath entitled 'Once a physicist: Nick Horvath (http://www.iop.org/careers/workinglife/profiles/page_37723.html).' I somehow missed it when printed in Physics World in 2009 :rolleyes:. Not wanting to resurrect the 2008 'Horvath update' thread with 10-yr-old info, I'll just leave the link here. But, it could also be tossed in with the old school vs one-and-done discussions or with one of DBR's various allusions to Schrödinger’s cat.

I looked for some old Schrodinger's Cat references. But I couldn't tell if they were there or not.

OldPhiKap
07-26-2018, 12:54 PM
I looked for some old Schrodinger's Cat references. But I couldn't tell if they were there or not.

"You must spread some Comments around before commenting on jimsumner again."

devildeac
07-26-2018, 01:05 PM
But can Jack White drink 50 beers on the flight to Maui and then absolutely destroy San Diego State the next day??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5bI1UPu2MI


Like David Thompson leaving change on the backboard, I have to think that story is an exaggeration. Maybe we can all agree to do some “research” to determine if anything remotely close would be possible.

A "perfect" thread to discuss that very topic:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3840-Ymm-Beer/page825

;)

HereBeforeCoachK
07-26-2018, 02:34 PM
Come on! He hit 16% of his 3s. How much better do you want him to shoot?

;)

What was that, 1 for 7?

phaedrus
07-26-2018, 03:02 PM
Here's more Horvath.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/basketball/79073192/horvath-moves-into-coaching-after-injury-and-jets-demise-ends-playing-career

Synopsis: coaching high school basketball in New Zealand after a long career there (as of 2016).

rsvman
07-27-2018, 09:12 AM
I looked for some old Schrodinger's Cat references. But I couldn't tell if they were there or not.

They were both there and not there.

kAzE
07-29-2018, 01:39 AM
https://youtu.be/16U2ZzH0AOg

Jack vs Cam in a game of P-I-G, announced by Zion. Jack was pretty consistent from 22 feet and from the corners. Alright, it’s not that interesting of a video, but I love zion’s personality. He’s a fun kid.

UrinalCake
07-31-2018, 11:30 AM
I know this is just an empty gym, but Zion’s stroke looks pretty good.

https://twitter.com/overtime/status/1024301166673506310?s=21

JasonEvans
07-31-2018, 11:59 AM
I know this is just an empty gym, but Zion’s stroke looks pretty good.

https://twitter.com/overtime/status/1024301166673506310?s=21

As I noted on the podcast after I watched the McDonald All-American practice (https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2018/3/28/17171346/dbr-at-mcdonalds-practice-duke-basketball) last spring...


I was impressed with Zion’s outside shot as well. His 3-pointers looked smooth and his shooting form is quite good. He doesn’t really jump all that high on his jump shots, sometimes almost shooting them flat-footed, but he made a good percentage of them.

Look at the video... he barely gets off the ground. He isn't shooting jumpers, he is shooting tippy-toers.

lotusland
07-31-2018, 12:47 PM
Zion won’t have to jump. He’ll be practically unguarded at the three point line. Looks like he has a slight hitch in it but lefty shots always look strange to me, even Kennard’s.

UrinalCake
07-31-2018, 01:38 PM
Zion doesn't jump, he pushes the earth down with his legs.

proelitedota
07-31-2018, 01:41 PM
Zion doesn't jump, he pushes the earth down with his legs.

Zion doesn't shoot the ball. He whispers quietly to the ball and it floats itself to the hoop.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-31-2018, 02:56 PM
Zion doesn't shoot the ball. He whispers quietly to the ball and it floats itself to the hoop.

.....don't take a gun to a Zion fight.....

Furniture
09-23-2018, 11:02 AM
https://balldurham.com/2018/09/21/duke-basketball-jack-white-hidden-gem/

Duke Basketball: Three reasons why Jack White will be Duke’s hidden gem
(https://balldurham.com/2018/09/21/duke-basketball-jack-white-hidden-gem/)

BandAlum83
09-23-2018, 11:25 AM
They were both there and not there.

They were definitely on the search results page, but never there when I clicked thru. Kinda like every book I ever needed for a research paper I had to do at Duke (pre-internet).

I would get a list of 15 books from the card catalogues (do they still exist?), and go to the stacks and find nothing.

At least the microfiche never failed to deliver.

Wow. I'm old.

BTW, I never encountered any cats in the stacks.