Zion Williamson is now 6'7 285. + Other updated measurements.

[proelitedota]

http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22727

1 Zion Williamson F 6-7 285 Fr. Spartanburg, S.C. (Spartanburg Day School)
2 Cam Reddish F 6-8 218 Fr. Norristown, Pa. (Westtown School)
3 Tre Jones G 6-2 183 Fr. Apple Valley, Minn. (Apple Valley)
5 R.J. Barrett F 6-7 202 Fr. Mississauga, Ont. (Montverde Academy [Fla.])
12 Javin DeLaurier F 6-10 234 Jr. Shipman, Va. (Saint Anne's-Belfield)
13 Joey Baker F 6-7 200 Fr. Fayetteville, N.C. (Trinity Christian School)
14 Jordan Goldwire G 6-2 181 So. Norcross, Ga. (Norcross)
15 Alex O'Connell G 6-6 176 So. Roswell, Ga. (Milton)
20 Marques Bolden C 6-11 250 Jr. DeSoto, Texas (DeSoto)
30 Antonio Vrankovic C 7-0 269 Sr. Zagreb, Croatia (Pine Crest School [Fla.])
41 Jack White F 6-7 222 Jr. Traralgon, Victoria, Australia (Australian Institute of Sport)
50 Justin Robinson F 6-10 202 Jr. San Antonio, Texas (San Antonio Christian Academy)
51 Mike Buckmire G 6-2 173 So. Blue Bell, Pa. (Germantown Friends School)
53 Brennan Besser G 6-5 190 Sr. Chicago, Ill. (Latin School)

[subzero02]

http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22727

1 Zion Williamson F 6-7 285 Fr. Spartanburg, S.C. (Spartanburg Day School)
2 Cam Reddish F 6-8 218 Fr. Norristown, Pa. (Westtown School)
3 Tre Jones G 6-2 183 Fr. Apple Valley, Minn. (Apple Valley)
5 R.J. Barrett F 6-7 202 Fr. Mississauga, Ont. (Montverde Academy [Fla.])
12 Javin DeLaurier F 6-10 234 Jr. Shipman, Va. (Saint Anne's-Belfield)
13 Joey Baker F 6-7 200 Fr. Fayetteville, N.C. (Trinity Christian School)
14 Jordan Goldwire G 6-2 181 So. Norcross, Ga. (Norcross)
15 Alex O'Connell G 6-6 176 So. Roswell, Ga. (Milton)
20 Marques Bolden C 6-11 250 Jr. DeSoto, Texas (DeSoto)
30 Antonio Vrankovic C 7-0 269 Sr. Zagreb, Croatia (Pine Crest School [Fla.])
41 Jack White F 6-7 222 Jr. Traralgon, Victoria, Australia (Australian Institute of Sport)
50 Justin Robinson F 6-10 202 Jr. San Antonio, Texas (San Antonio Christian Academy)
51 Mike Buckmire G 6-2 173 So. Blue Bell, Pa. (Germantown Friends School)
53 Brennan Besser G 6-5 190 Sr. Chicago, Ill. (Latin School)


He weighs 285 pounds and just set the Duke vertical leap
record. So, he's basically walking around on a pair of falcon9 rockets.

[zoroaster]

Is Justin Robinson undergoing a Robinsonian growth spurt? I seem to remember he was closer to 6'7 before.

[budwom]

maybe I'm wrong, but I think these "measurements" are self reported...I know in the past you could look at roster "measurements" from year to year and sometimes they would could not be reconciled
with various comments from the coaching staff...
p.s. Williamson was officially measured in October and he was an even 6-5 without shoes...so yeah, he's kind of 6-7 in basketball terms...

[NashvilleDevil]

maybe I'm wrong, but I think these "measurements" are self reported...I know in the past you could look at roster "measurements" from year to year and sometimes they would could not be reconciled
with various comments from the coaching staff...
p.s. Williamson was officially measured in October and he was an even 6-5 without shoes...so yeah, he's kind of 6-7 in basketball terms...

I think Duke did their combine today so those measurements might be accurate.

[Neals384]

AOC, please eat something!

[JasonEvans]

AOC, please eat something!

5 pounds lighter than any other scholarship player... feed that kid many protein milkshakes!

[left_hook_lacey]

He weighs 285 pounds and just set the Duke vertical leap
record. So, he's basically walking around on a pair of falcon9 rockets.

Not saying it's not true, but it seems hard to believe. At 285 lbs, he can vertically leap higher than: Grant Hill, Grayson Allen, Corey Maggette, Gerald Henderson?

That's hard to believe, but scary good if true.

[UrinalCake]

I think Duke did their combine today so those measurements might be accurate.

Yeah, DukeMBB posted a video today of the team doing combine tests, which they do every summer. Zion reaches the top of the max vert bar and reportedly set a Duke record on that test. 285 is a little surprising though, he looks slimmer than in his high school videos. Maybe he’s somehow managed to add even more muscle?

Aside from Zion we are actually kind of a skinny team. Good height and athleticism across the board though.

[CDu]

Not saying it's not true, but it seems hard to believe. At 285 lbs, he can vertically leap higher than: Grant Hill, Grayson Allen, Corey Maggette, Gerald Henderson?

That's hard to believe, but scary good if true.

I suspect Maggette and Hill predated this testing at Duke. But I'd not be shocked if Zion outjumped Hill. Maggette might be a different story. Henderson actually had a surprisingly low (for him) vertical at the NBA combine. Allen's number was quite good, but not outlandish either. Also, we don't know if it is the highest vertical or highest max reach (highest point at which a player reached on his leap). If it was the latter, then the height and reach advantage Zion has over Henderson and Allen would play into things.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Not saying it's not true, but it seems hard to believe. At 285 lbs, he can vertically leap higher than: Grant Hill, Grayson Allen, Corey Maggette, Gerald Henderson?

That's hard to believe, but scary good if true.

Muscle is heavy and purposeful.

[fraggler]

Not saying it's not true, but it seems hard to believe. At 285 lbs, he can vertically leap higher than: Grant Hill, Grayson Allen, Corey Maggette, Gerald Henderson?

That's hard to believe, but scary good if true.

I would think the videos make it very easy to believe...

But doing some math, if his standing reach of 8'7" is accurate, and the tweet of 2.3' above the rim is true, that comes out to about a 44.6" vertical. That would be 2nd highest all time at the NBA combine (going back to 2000), and in the top 10 historically depending on how accurate some reported numbers were (not sure I believe Wilt having a 48inch vertical). His weight of 285(!) puts him up there with maybe only Lebron and Wilt to move that kind of mass as high as he does (though even those two didn't play that heavy). He is a truly amazing physical specimen - let's hope his basketball skills (and health) can keep up.

For your reference:
Grayson 40.5
Corey 39-40
Gerald 35
Grant unavailable

I think we tend to overestimate vertical numbers based on how easily or quickly some guys dunk. At 6'8", Grant didn't really need an insane vertical to dunk like he did - none of his most famous dunks have his head anywhere near the rim. He was just such an amazingly graceful and yet explosive athlete that we feel like he must have been jumping higher.

[94duke]

He weighs 285 pounds and just set the Duke vertical leap
record. So, he's basically walking around on a pair of falcon9 rockets.

where did you find that pic/video?

[tbyers11]

where did you find that pic/video?

Here is the video of Zion's vertical measurement.

https://twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/1015033823711711237

[DukieInBrasil]

AOC, please eat something!


5 pounds lighter than any other scholarship player... feed that kid many protein milkshakes!

Zion weighs more than 100 lbs more than Alex, and they're about the same height. That's just insane. In fact 1 AOC is about 1/2 of a Beejay Anya or Sean May.

[OldPhiKap]

Didn't Dawkins have a 42" vertical, or something close?

I know he had springs for legs, and a jackknife for a waist.

[devildeac]

Zion weighs more than 100 lbs more than Alex, and they're about the same height. That's just insane. In fact 1 AOC is about 1/2 of a Beejay Anya or Sean May.

We'll have to hope all season that Zion doesn't get real hungry one night and have AOC for a snack:rolleyes::o.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Didn't Dawkins have a 42" vertical, or something close?

I know he had springs for legs, and a jackknife for a waist.
And then there was David Thompson. 44"? 48"? 50"? Depends which video you watch after Googling DT. Here's the 44" video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQPVKQIFxVk

He's still the greatest college player I've ever seen. :cool:

[jimsumner]

FWIW, I was told a few years back that Carmen Wallace had the highest vertical of any Duke player in K's tenure. Didn't have an exact number, however. Wallace graduated in 1997, btw.


And yes, some of these numbers can be a bit iffy. I'm sure I'm not the only person who recalls DeMarcus Nelson suddenly becoming 6-4 as a senior.

[3rd Dukie]

He weighs 285 pounds and just set the Duke vertical leap
record. So, he's basically walking around on a pair of falcon9 rockets.
This is the funniest thing I have read on here in quite some time. Great image. Well played.

[MarkD83]

I think Zion can give David his change back. (Obscure reference for us old timers)

[Jackson]

If Zion is a legit 6'7" 285, he is unicornish. There is noone in basketball to use as a comparison. Julius Peppers comes to mind, but I don't like to count him. Zion is a monster DE in the NFL. As a basketball player, he is the ultimate freak. Usually you see 285, you think that kid needs to lose a bunch of weight, but that is far from the case. Unreal. Wasn't Bolden always listed at 6'10" previously?

[DukeFanSince1990]

If Zion is a legit 6'7" 285, he is unicornish. There is noone in basketball to use as a comparison. Julius Peppers comes to mind, but I don't like to count him. Zion is a monster DE in the NFL. As a basketball player, he is the ultimate freak. Usually you see 285, you think that kid needs to lose a bunch of weight, but that is far from the case. Unreal. Wasn't Bolden always listed at 6'10" previously?

When I played against Peppers in High School he was 215 pounds as a senior. Zion is bigger than him at that age, and a better leaper. Its quite amazing.

[Indoor66]

If Zion is a legit 6'7" 285, he is unicornish. There is noone in basketball to use as a comparison. Julius Peppers comes to mind, but I don't like to count him. Zion is a monster DE in the NFL. As a basketball player, he is the ultimate freak. Usually you see 285, you think that kid needs to lose a bunch of weight, but that is far from the case. Unreal. Wasn't Bolden always listed at 6'10" previously?

I think he was always listed at 6'11".

[moonpie23]

Cam Newton is 6'5" and 245#

let that sink in...

[SilkyJ]

FWIW, I was told a few years back that Carmen Wallace had the highest vertical of any Duke player in K's tenure. Didn't have an exact number, however. Wallace graduated in 1997, btw.


And yes, some of these numbers can be a bit iffy. I'm sure I'm not the only person who recalls DeMarcus Nelson suddenly becoming 6-4 as a senior.

And not only was Demarcus listed at 6'4 as a senior, he measured in at 6'1" w/o shoes at the combine (link (http://www.nbadraft.net/2008_nbapredraftcamp_measurements.html)) and 6'2.25" with shoes.

I would agree that "some of these numbers can be a bit iffy" although to be honest I might even call that an understatement. It seems like EVERY year there seem to be a couple measurements that are (deliberately?) modified and always seem to be a ways off from comes out at the combines/USA camps where the measurements tend to be very accurate.

So let's assume Zion is a smidge over 6'6 in shoes--I still think 6'6 with his weight, length, and leaping ability (and quickness off the floors) is big enough to play PF for Duke. Not sure if he can get off the floor as quickly as Marvin, but if the can approach that level of springiness then he'll be just fine. Demarcus played PF at times and it turns out he was only 6'1 or 6'2.


I think Zion can give David his change back. (Obscure reference for us old timers)

My father (also an old timer on this board) has made this reference to me several times--the story of David Thompson taking quarters off the backboard and then potentially jumping again and putting them back? This sounds like an old wives tale--is there any video evidence of this?

[devildeac]

And not only was Demarcus listed at 6'4 as a senior, he measured in at 6'1" w/o shoes at the combine (link (http://www.nbadraft.net/2008_nbapredraftcamp_measurements.html)) and 6'2.25" with shoes.

I would agree that "some of these numbers can be a bit iffy" although to be honest I might even call that an understatement. It seems like EVERY year there seem to be a couple measurements that are (deliberately?) modified and always seem to be a ways off from comes out at the combines/USA camps where the measurements tend to be very accurate.

So let's assume Zion is a smidge over 6'6 in shoes--I still think 6'6 with his weight, length, and leaping ability (and quickness off the floors) is big enough to play PF for Duke. Not sure if he can get off the floor as quickly as Marvin, but if the can approach that level of springiness then he'll be just fine. Demarcus played PF at times and it turns out he was only 6'1 or 6'2.



My father (also an old timer on this board) has made this reference to me several times--the story of David Thompson taking quarters off the backboard and then potentially jumping again and putting them back? This sounds like an old wives tale--is there any video evidence of this?

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Jim Sumner had some 8 mm reels of this in his archives. ;)

[OldPhiKap]

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Jim Sumner had some 8 mm reels of this in his archives. ;)

You should see his slide show,

[bedeviled]

story of David Thompson taking quarters off the backboard and then potentially jumping again and putting them back? This sounds like an old wives tale--is there any video evidence of this?From Thompson's lips:
The legend was I could take a quarter off and leave two dimes and a nickel. I didn't have quite that much hangtime, but I could get the top of the backboards
Source (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQPVKQIFxVk)(not a particularly exciting video clip. But, if the lame cliffhanger gets to you, here is the full version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJZaULiWf-4)

[jimsumner]

You should see his slide show,

Nah. I put all that stuff on Beta Max.

[CDu]

My father (also an old timer on this board) has made this reference to me several times--the story of David Thompson taking quarters off the backboard and then potentially jumping again and putting them back? This sounds like an old wives tale--is there any video evidence of this?


From Thompson's lips:
Source (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQPVKQIFxVk)(not a particularly exciting video clip. But, if the lame cliffhanger gets to you, here is the full version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJZaULiWf-4)

Like the Chamberlain “free throw dunk”, this is also a myth. The top of a regulation backboard is 13 feet high. So to even reach the top, someone with a 9 foot standing reach would need a 48+ inch vertical. Nobody has achieved a 48” vertical in the history of the NBA combine, and only a small proportion of folks have a 9’ standing reach. The heighest recorded max reach at the combine is 12’4”, which is comfortably (8”) shy of the top of the glass. Not everyone participates at the combine (especially more recently), but that should give a sense of how unlikely/impossible it is.

[jimsumner]

Like the Chamberlain “free throw dunk”, this is also a myth. The top of a regulation backboard is 13 feet high. So to even reach the top, someone with a 9 foot standing reach would need a 48+ inch vertical. Nobody has achieved a 48” vertical in the history of the NBA combine, and only a small proportion of folks have a 9’ standing reach. The heighest recorded max reach at the combine is 12’4”, which is comfortably (8”) shy of the top of the glass. Not everyone participates at the combine (especially more recently), but that should give a sense of how unlikely/impossible it is.

Yes, but Herman the Helicopter never went to the NBA combine. :)

[Saratoga2]

http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22727

1 Zion Williamson F 6-7 285 Fr. Spartanburg, S.C. (Spartanburg Day School)
2 Cam Reddish F 6-8 218 Fr. Norristown, Pa. (Westtown School)
3 Tre Jones G 6-2 183 Fr. Apple Valley, Minn. (Apple Valley)
5 R.J. Barrett F 6-7 202 Fr. Mississauga, Ont. (Montverde Academy [Fla.])
12 Javin DeLaurier F 6-10 234 Jr. Shipman, Va. (Saint Anne's-Belfield)
13 Joey Baker F 6-7 200 Fr. Fayetteville, N.C. (Trinity Christian School)
14 Jordan Goldwire G 6-2 181 So. Norcross, Ga. (Norcross)
15 Alex O'Connell G 6-6 176 So. Roswell, Ga. (Milton)
20 Marques Bolden C 6-11 250 Jr. DeSoto, Texas (DeSoto)
30 Antonio Vrankovic C 7-0 269 Sr. Zagreb, Croatia (Pine Crest School [Fla.])
41 Jack White F 6-7 222 Jr. Traralgon, Victoria, Australia (Australian Institute of Sport)
50 Justin Robinson F 6-10 202 Jr. San Antonio, Texas (San Antonio Christian Academy)
51 Mike Buckmire G 6-2 173 So. Blue Bell, Pa. (Germantown Friends School)
53 Brennan Besser G 6-5 190 Sr. Chicago, Ill. (Latin School)

We have for years been given measurements with sneakers on and that is okay if accurate but we usually find out the results from the NBA Chicago pre-draft camp measurements that the posted numbers here are not reliable and may be self reported. Cases to make the point include Reddick who was reported as being 6'4" and actually meaured that with shoes off while Dante Jones was listed at 6'4" and measured at 6'2 3/4". We don't get all the players measurements as they don't get invited to camp but those that do from not just Duke but from other teams are also sometimes significantly at variance with the university posted amount. It doesn't matter much in the scheme of things for Duke and our play in the ACC, but it does matter to the NBA as they go through a lot of effort to obtain accurate measurements in a lot of categories.

Now, do I think Zion at 6'7" and 285 # and jumps that high is a freak of nature. Definitely, but I wonder also if carrying all that weight is a good thing for his legs and joints in the long term. I hope the coaching staff will visit this question and work with him to do what is right for Zion's career and long term interest

[slower]

Like the Chamberlain “free throw dunk”, this is also a myth. The top of a regulation backboard is 13 feet high. So to even reach the top, someone with a 9 foot standing reach would need a 48+ inch vertical. Nobody has achieved a 48” vertical in the history of the NBA combine, and only a small proportion of folks have a 9’ standing reach. The heighest recorded max reach at the combine is 12’4”, which is comfortably (8”) shy of the top of the glass. Not everyone participates at the combine (especially more recently), but that should give a sense of how unlikely/impossible it is.

Thank you. The hyperbole that permeates these discussions is ridiculous.

[sagegrouse]

We have for years been given measurements with sneakers on and that is okay if accurate but we usually find out the results from the NBA Chicago pre-draft camp measurements that the posted numbers here are not reliable and may be self reported. Cases to make the point include Reddick who was reported as being 6'4" and actually meaured that with shoes off while Dante Jones was listed at 6'4" and measured at 6'2 3/4". We don't get all the players measurements as they don't get invited to camp but those that do from not just Duke but from other teams are also sometimes significantly at variance with the university posted amount. It doesn't matter much in the scheme of things for Duke and our play in the ACC, but it does matter to the NBA as they go through a lot of effort to obtain accurate measurements in a lot of categories.

Now, do I think Zion at 6'7" and 285 # and jumps that high is a freak of nature. Definitely, but I wonder also if carrying all that weight is a good thing for his legs and joints in the long term. I hope the coaching staff will visit this question and work with him to do what is right for Zion's career and long term interest

If "Dante Jones" is meant to be "Dahntay Jones," then I don't understand your numbers. Dahntay has always been listed as 6-6; I can't find the 2003 Draft Combine results to see what actual measurements were.

[CDu]

If "Dante Jones" is meant to be "Dahntay Jones," then I don't understand your numbers. Dahntay has always been listed as 6-6; I can't find the 2003 Draft Combine results to see what actual measurements were.

I am assuming he or she subconsciously meant Nelson. Jones measured 6’4.75” without shoes in the 2003 combine.

[JasonEvans]

I am assuming he or she subconsciously meant Nelson. Jones measured 6’4.75” without shoes in the 2003 combine.

Yeah, I also figured the poster was talking about DeMarcus Nelson. Nelson was always listed as 6-4 at Duke but I saw him standing next to Sean Dockery and it was clear they were essentially the same height.

[jimsumner]

Yeah, I also figured the poster was talking about DeMarcus Nelson. Nelson was always listed as 6-4 at Duke but I saw him standing next to Sean Dockery and it was clear they were essentially the same height.

Nelson actually wasn't always listed as 6-4. That was the strange part. He was listed as 6-2 up until his senior year, when he magically jumped to 6-4.

Players can get taller in college. Kenny Dennard and Mike Dunleavy are examples. And I'm still waiting for a growth spurt that just never comes.

Well, a vertical growth spurt. I'm not having much trouble with the horizontal part.

But it's rare for a college senior to grow two inches.

Back in the 1970s, NC State had a publicity stunt where they had all of their (basketball) players weighed and measured at the State Fairgrounds, under the auspices of longtime NC Commissioner of Agriculture (and huge State fan) Jim Graham. Lots of media coverage.

It turned out everyone was shorter than listed. Usually by an inch or. IIRC, Phil Spence went from 6-8 to 6-6.

[luvdahops]

And then there was David Thompson. 44"? 48"? 50"? Depends which video you watch after Googling DT. Here's the 44" video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQPVKQIFxVk

He's still the greatest college player I've ever seen. :cool:

Same for me. Watching DT is what got me hooked on basketball as a middle schooler. 48" is the figure I always remember being quoted for his vertical, but can't say I recall the exact source(s).

[UrinalCake]

My understanding was that Demarcus Nelson had some sort of severe scoliosis that caused his spine to contort. It helped account for his really long wingspan, because he was essentially a 6’6-6’7 player whose spine was several inches too short, thus he measured 6’3-6’4. Maybe it started to resolve in his later years, leading to the increased height measurement?

I also think that the days of players just verbally declaring their heights are behind us. These guys get measured at the various summer all star games, at AAU events, etc. The combine preparation stuff that the team does over the summer looks pretty legit. So I’m inclined to trust the numbers that the team just put out.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Same for me. Watching DT is what got me hooked on basketball as a middle schooler. 48" is the figure I always remember being quoted for his vertical, but can't say I recall the exact source(s).

My cousin's family had season tix to State games then, all through the 70s.....and I went to a good number of those games with them. And man, with that team, I don't think the Lakers could've beaten them in Reynolds. Reynolds was off the hook then.

[PackMan97]

Same for me. Watching DT is what got me hooked on basketball as a middle schooler. 48" is the figure I always remember being quoted for his vertical, but can't say I recall the exact source(s).

The legend is that if you put a quarter on the top of a backboard, DT could grab it and leave two dimes and a nickel. DT has denied that ability, stating he didn't have enough hang time...he could touch the top of the backboard.

Keep in mind DT was only 6'4".

[ikiru36]

The legend is that if you put a quarter on the top of a backboard, DT could grab it and leave two dimes and a nickel. DT has denied that ability, stating he didn't have enough hang time...he could touch the top of the backboard.

Keep in mind DT was only 6'4".

To be fair, he may have benefited somewhat from Men's footwear of the era.

8490

[Truth&Justise]

Not saying it's not true, but it seems hard to believe. At 285 lbs, he can vertically leap higher than: Grant Hill, Grayson Allen, Corey Maggette, Gerald Henderson?

That's hard to believe, but scary good if true.

I also find it hard to believe. Think of all the biggest basketball players on the planet--the enforcers, big-bodied rebounders, and guys who exist to eat up space under the basket. Behemoths like Jusuf Nurkic, Timofey Mozgov, Andre Drummond, Kendrick Perkins, DeMarcus Cousins, Dwight Howard, Al Jefferson, the Lopez Twins. At 285 pounds, Zion would outweigh each of them. In fact, only one player has a listed weight above 285: 7'3" Boban Marjanovic, who clocks in at 290, just a bit above Zion's listed weight.

That just doesn't seem believable. I'm much more inclined to think that teams fudge their measurements, but usually that's to make guys an inch or two taller. It's rarer for weight, and in most cases that's to pretend that a guy like Shaq is more svelte then he actually is.

Which leads to a problem: I can't figure out why he or Duke would massage the numbers to make him appear heavier.




(For college references: Zoubek was listed at 260. Will Graves, who got chided for being overweight at UNC, was listed at 240. Even Beejay Anya was...nah, it doesn't go that far. Anya was listed at 320 pounds, and was probably heavier than that.)

[CDu]

The legend is that if you put a quarter on the top of a backboard, DT could grab it and leave two dimes and a nickel. DT has denied that ability, stating he didn't have enough hang time...he could touch the top of the backboard.

Keep in mind DT was only 6'4".

Thompson has said in an interview that he could touch the top of the backboard. But, again, it's almost certainly not true. Unless the glass was much lower back then, and I don't think it was. For Thompson to reach the top of the backboard (13 feet high), he'd have to have a vertical leap of well over 50 inches to even approach the top of the backboard: his standing reach was almost certainly not 9 feet (probably closer to 8'6"-8'8" given his height), and a person with a 9 foot standing reach would need a 48 inch vertical to reach to the top of the backboard. The highest vertical ever measured at the combine was 46 inches. I've seen reports of Thompson having a 44 inch vertical and a 48 inch vertical. Neither would leave him anywhere close to reaching the top of the backboard.

Now, MAYBE Thompson could touch the top of a playground hoop backboard that isn't regulation height. But I'm guessing this is just a case of Thompson having some fun with folks and urging the myth on.

[PackMan97]

To be fair, he may have benefited somewhat from Men's footwear of the era.

8490

Dear God! Weren't State's "unitard" uniforms bad enough? Seriously...make fun of State for all the true things we've done. Need need to make stuff up.

:o

[907bluedevils]

Did they do body fat % measurements? Interested in seeing Zion's

[mike88]

Thompson has said in an interview that he could touch the top of the backboard. But, again, it's almost certainly not true. Unless the glass was much lower back then, and I don't think it was. For Thompson to reach the top of the backboard (13 feet high), he'd have to have a vertical leap of well over 50 inches to even approach the top of the backboard: his standing reach was almost certainly not 9 feet (probably closer to 8'6"-8'8" given his height), and a person with a 9 foot standing reach would need a 48 inch vertical to reach to the top of the backboard. The highest vertical ever measured at the combine was 46 inches. I've seen reports of Thompson having a 44 inch vertical and a 48 inch vertical. Neither would leave him anywhere close to reaching the top of the backboard.

Now, MAYBE Thompson could touch the top of a playground hoop backboard that isn't regulation height. But I'm guessing this is just a case of Thompson having some fun with folks and urging the myth on.

I don't think it was ever said that he could do it from standing still- but rather with a running start- still, that would be pretty impressive!

[Kedsy]

Thompson has said in an interview that he could touch the top of the backboard. But, again, it's almost certainly not true. Unless the glass was much lower back then, and I don't think it was. For Thompson to reach the top of the backboard (13 feet high), he'd have to have a vertical leap of well over 50 inches to even approach the top of the backboard: his standing reach was almost certainly not 9 feet (probably closer to 8'6"-8'8" given his height), and a person with a 9 foot standing reach would need a 48 inch vertical to reach to the top of the backboard. The highest vertical ever measured at the combine was 46 inches. I've seen reports of Thompson having a 44 inch vertical and a 48 inch vertical. Neither would leave him anywhere close to reaching the top of the backboard.

Now, MAYBE Thompson could touch the top of a playground hoop backboard that isn't regulation height. But I'm guessing this is just a case of Thompson having some fun with folks and urging the myth on.

A 6'5" guy named Michael Wilson (who was affiliated with the Globetrotters) set a "world record" by alley-oop dunking on a 12-foot rim. There's video, and his hand gets above the ball as he dunks it, which would put his hand about 12'9" above the ground. I don't know what his standing reach was, but his vertical in the video was almost certainly much greater than 46 inches. Though he was an inch taller than DT, it's not inconceivable that DT could jump as high or higher than some guy nobody's ever heard of. Meaning DT may have been able to at least get close to the top of the backboard.

There's also video out there of 5'9" Nate Robinson dunking a tennis ball on a 12-foot hoop, which would put his hand about 12'3" above the ground. Robinson's standing reach was reportedly 7'7.5", which would make his vertical on the video dunk 53.5". So either the video is fake, the rim wasn't really 12', or the rules of the combine don't allow players to achieve their absolute highest jump. My guess is the latter, but who knows? If it's legit, then a 6'4" guy with Robinson's hops would get awfully close to the top. And, again, it's not inconceivable that David Thompson had a better vertical than Nate Robinson.

[luvdahops]

I don't think it was ever said that he could do it from standing still- but rather with a running start- still, that would be pretty impressive!

Exactly. It's been established that touching the top of the backboard on an NBA Draft Combine basis (i.e. 2-step max vert) seems implausible if not impossible. But I think it is entirely plausible that DT, among others, was able to touch the top of the backboard with a running start.

[luvdahops]

I also find it hard to believe. Think of all the biggest basketball players on the planet--the enforcers, big-bodied rebounders, and guys who exist to eat up space under the basket. Behemoths like Jusuf Nurkic, Timofey Mozgov, Andre Drummond, Kendrick Perkins, DeMarcus Cousins, Dwight Howard, Al Jefferson, the Lopez Twins. At 285 pounds, Zion would outweigh each of them. In fact, only one player has a listed weight above 285: 7'3" Boban Marjanovic, who clocks in at 290, just a bit above Zion's listed weight.

That just doesn't seem believable. I'm much more inclined to think that teams fudge their measurements, but usually that's to make guys an inch or two taller. It's rarer for weight, and in most cases that's to pretend that a guy like Shaq is more svelte then he actually is.

Which leads to a problem: I can't figure out why he or Duke would massage the numbers to make him appear heavier.




(For college references: Zoubek was listed at 260. Will Graves, who got chided for being overweight at UNC, was listed at 240. Even Beejay Anya was...nah, it doesn't go that far. Anya was listed at 320 pounds, and was probably heavier than that.)

Is it possible that the last 2 numbers were transposed in posting the roster, so that Zion weighs 258 rather than 285? That seems a lot more plausible to me, and would put him in the same zip code as Barkley (listed at 6-6, 252) and Larry Johnson (listed at 6-7, 250), two players to whom he is often compared.

[CDu]

I don't think it was ever said that he could do it from standing still- but rather with a running start- still, that would be pretty impressive!

I didn’t say standing still either. I listed max verticals (which involve a running start) and standing reach (the starting point from the ground).

[luvdahops]

I didn’t say standing still either. I listed max verticals (which involve a running start) and standing reach (the starting point from the ground).

I'm pretty sure the NBA Combine max vertical measurement is with two steps (vs standing for the other vertical measurement), not a running start.

[CDu]

A 6'5" guy named Michael Wilson (who was affiliated with the Globetrotters) set a "world record" by alley-oop dunking on a 12-foot rim. There's video, and his hand gets above the ball as he dunks it, which would put his hand about 12'9" above the ground. I don't know what his standing reach was, but his vertical in the video was almost certainly much greater than 46 inches. Though he was an inch taller than DT, it's not inconceivable that DT could jump as high or higher than some guy nobody's ever heard of. Meaning DT may have been able to at least get close to the top of the backboard.

There's also video out there of 5'9" Nate Robinson dunking a tennis ball on a 12-foot hoop, which would put his hand about 12'3" above the ground. Robinson's standing reach was reportedly 7'7.5", which would make his vertical on the video dunk 53.5". So either the video is fake, the rim wasn't really 12', or the rules of the combine don't allow players to achieve their absolute highest jump. My guess is the latter, but who knows? If it's legit, then a 6'4" guy with Robinson's hops would get awfully close to the top. And, again, it's not inconceivable that David Thompson had a better vertical than Nate Robinson.

That NateRob video is almost certainly not on a 12-ft rim. Probably 11’ or 11’6”. His descent isn’t nearly far enough down to be a 4’8” vertical.

And the combine is definitely not a true max vertical - it is a two-step max vertical. But remember: Thompson would need to have a ~54” vertical to reach the top. That would require him to have the highest 2-step max vertical ever AND have his running max be ~20% higher than his 2-step max AND be able to coordinate his running jump to reach the backboard right at the apex of his jump.

That strains credibility. I think the much more likely scenario is that Thompson is stretching the truth a bit.

[weezie]

To be fair, he may have benefited somewhat from Men's footwear of the era.

8490


Oh hold up...anybody wanting to cast a jaded eye upon the great Bootsy Collins will definitely be under observation from the weezie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMNQ3JCGddQ

[luvdahops]

That NateRob video is almost certainly not on a 12-ft rim. Probably 11’ or 11’6”. His descent isn’t nearly far enough down to be a 4’8” vertical.

And the combine is definitely not a true max vertical - it is a two-step max vertical. But remember: Thompson would need to have a ~54” vertical to reach the top. That would require him to have the highest 2-step max vertical ever AND have his running max be ~20% higher than his 2-step max AND be able to coordinate his running jump to reach the backboard right at the apex of his jump.

That strains credibility. I think the much more likely scenario is that Thompson is stretching the truth a bit.

I don't know. At this year's combine, quite a few guys added 8 inches (~25%, and more in some cases) in going from standing to 2-step. So it seems at least plausible to me that someone could add as much or more to their 2-step max with a running start.

https://stats.nba.com/draft/combine-strength-agility/

[rsvman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr1-c8kg0DE

You can watch this and judge for yourself, but it appears to show a guy I've never heard of reaching 13-feet with a running start (happens at about the 3:05 mark). So unless this is fabricated (which I suppose it could be), apparently reaching 13 feet is not humanly impossible.

[Spanarkel]

Thompson has said in an interview that he could touch the top of the backboard. But, again, it's almost certainly not true. Unless the glass was much lower back then, and I don't think it was. For Thompson to reach the top of the backboard (13 feet high), he'd have to have a vertical leap of well over 50 inches to even approach the top of the backboard: his standing reach was almost certainly not 9 feet (probably closer to 8'6"-8'8" given his height), and a person with a 9 foot standing reach would need a 48 inch vertical to reach to the top of the backboard. The highest vertical ever measured at the combine was 46 inches. I've seen reports of Thompson having a 44 inch vertical and a 48 inch vertical. Neither would leave him anywhere close to reaching the top of the backboard.

Now, MAYBE Thompson could touch the top of a playground hoop backboard that isn't regulation height. But I'm guessing this is just a case of Thompson having some fun with folks and urging the myth on.

Thompson's head is nearly touching the Clemson banner(top row/3rd photo from left).

www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=947&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=ZdZDW6OcCvGYtgXJrqeYAQ&q=david+thompson+basketball+images&oq=david+thompson+basketball+images&gs_l=img.12...13526.15386.0.17458.11.11.0.0.0.0.12 1.866.10j1.11.0...0...1c.1.64.i

[jipops]

5 pounds lighter than any other scholarship player... feed that kid many protein milkshakes!

If the kid can move his feet and drain 3’s this really doesn’t matter.

[CDu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr1-c8kg0DE

You can watch this and judge for yourself, but it appears to show a guy I've never heard of reaching 13-feet with a running start (happens at about the 3:05 mark). So unless this is fabricated (which I suppose it could be), apparently reaching 13 feet is not humanly impossible.

Yeah, that wasn’t close to 13 feet.

[budwom]

Is it possible that the last 2 numbers were transposed in posting the roster, so that Zion weighs 258 rather than 285? That seems a lot more plausible to me, and would put him in the same zip code as Barkley (listed at 6-6, 252) and Larry Johnson (listed at 6-7, 250), two players to whom he is often compared.

Ha, I had wondered the same thing...I know it's no big deal, but I remain fixated on the notion that Williamson's 285 is a listing, not a measurement, and as a former banker, I know one must always remain alert for transpositions! He's undeniably huge and athletic....I'm just not buying 285 at all.

[OldPhiKap]

Ha, I had wondered the same thing...I know it's no big deal, but I remain fixated on the notion that Williamson's 285 is a listing, not a measurement, and as a former banker, I know one must always remain alert for transpositions! He's undeniably huge and athletic...I'm just not buying 285 at all.

For comparison, Elton Brand was listed as 6’8” or 6’9” and around 260 or less.


If Zion is sa hair shorter, a LOT bigger, AND has better hops — he would be a bigger freak than I imagine. (Meant in a great way, of course).

[jwillfan]

Cam Newton is 6'5" and 245#

let that sink in...

Aaron Judge is 6'8" 285 and steals bases, covers a lotta outfield. No idea what his vertical is but he's an athlete

[NSDukeFan]

Aaron Judge is 6'8" 285 and steals bases, covers a lotta outfield. No idea what his vertical is but he's an athlete

But I thought he played baseball? 😀

[HereBeforeCoachK]

For comparison, Elton Brand was listed as 6’8” or 6’9” and around 260 or less.


If Zion is sa hair shorter, a LOT bigger, AND has better hops — he would be a bigger freak than I imagine. (Meant in a great way, of course).

I think he is, he is, he does, and he is.....

[UrinalCake]

Google tells me that the world record in the high jump is 8’ 1/4”, set in 1993. If you were to assume that David Thompson could jump the same height while keeping his body vertical (which would of course be impossible) then the midpoint of his body would be eight feet high. Then add half of his 6’5” body and the top of his head would be 11’2.5” off the ground (ignoring the extra 1/8” because I’m on my phone and drunk). Then you’d need to add the distance from the top of his head to the top of his outstretched arm. Google tells me that Mo Bamba’s standing reach is about 2’7” greater than his height without shoes. I doubt Thompson’s arms were as long as Bamba’s, but continuing this exercise that would mean his hand is 13’9.5” from the ground. So that would be enough to reach the top of the backboard.

So in summary, for Thompson to grab a quarter on the top of the backboard he would have to jump as high as the world record high jumper, while keeping his body upright, and have arms equaling the longest player ever recorded at the combine. Then he’d have to hang there long enough to leave change.

[OldPhiKap]

I think he is, he is, he does, and he is....

I have the giddy feeling that you might be right.

And if so — yikes!!!!

[CDu]

Here is an article on the subject from ESPN about a decade ago:

http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4307/james-white-vs-a-jumping-myth

Summary: yeah, it is highly unlikely that anybody has touched the top of the backboard legitimately, let alone taken a quarter off the top, let alone left change.

They asked around amongst the best current leapers. LeBron said he couldn't. Dwight SAID he could, but wouldn't prove it. James White (considered by many to be the best dunker ever, including a between the legs dunk from the free throw line) said he could, and actually tried, but came up a few inches short on his best efforts on two different occasions.

Again, White (who is 6'7" and arguably the greatest dunker ever - seriously, his dunk highlights are silly) couldn't quite do it. Not saying it is impossible. But it's pretty close to impossible. And I'm pretty confident that David Thompson - who was unquestionably a great leaper - didn't do it either.

That's the thing: it's one of the most talked about myths out there, and is a myth that has been around for decades. If a guy could really do it, there would be legitimate video of him doing it by now.

[bedeviled]

It's one of the most talked about myths out there, and is a myth that has been around for decades. If a guy could really do it, there would be legitimate video of him doing it by nowZion: "Hold my Powerade"

Perhaps there is variability not yet discussed. In addition to different styles of jumps, there are different body types forged in various sports (eg basketball, volleyball, high jump).
Basketball combine vs Football combine standing vertical records (NFL _only_ measures standing vertical; note that basketball players typically add 4-6 inches when allowed steps):
NBA
40" - DJ Stephens
39.5" - Nick Young, Kenny Gregory
38.5" - Dorian Finney-Smith, Alex Scales
38" - Justin Anderson, Harrison Barnes, Dwayne Mitchell
37.5" - Joel Bolomboy, Demetrius Jackson
NFL
47" - Willie Creear (at a regional combine (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/0ap3000000474059/Willie-Creear-tallies-47-inch-vertical-jump))
46" - Gerald Sensabaugh
45.5" - Cameron Wake
45" - Chris Conley, Donald Washington, Chris McKenzie, Chris Chambers
44.5" - Byron Jones
44" - AJ Jefferson, Obi Melifonwu
43.5" - 8 players

Also, consider that power lifting is used in training for vertical jumps. Here's Olympic lifter Shane Hamman (on the right): 8491
He's 5'9" and 360lbs. He can dunk from a standing position...can you? lol.
Lifter and WWF wrestler Mark "Sexual Chocolate" Henry can dunk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPnBJ4oJ2Sk), too. He's 6' 3"...but he was also 370lbs!

Is the NBA vs NFL disparity due to powerful/explosive physiology like muscle fibers, mass, or synchronization? Or, is it due to a difference in technique (2 vs 1 footed jumpers) or technical skill (practiced expertise for the combine)? Does the difference scale up for non-standing vertical jumps, too?

Robertas Javtokas (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvYgYijGCtY)), Michael Wilson (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNhE0eJe5KI&NR=1)), and Wilt Chamberlain are all reported to have dunked on a 12 foot rim. James White (reported in CDU's link above), Jeremy Evans (pic here (https://twitter.com/utahjazz/status/506914436246827008)) and Guillermo Diaz (reported here (http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4314/about-making-change-off-the-top-of-the-backboard)) all get a vertical reach around 12' 9". Dwight Howard looks to comfortably reach 12' 6", and I think even Shaq had a vertical reach of 12' 5". So, basketball players are approaching 13'. Could someone with a more explosive build, better technique, or practiced expertise do better? Could David Thompson have been that dude?

IDK. I'm just blabbering because I really, really, really want Zion to be the first myth buster on verified video record. Legend.

[David Bunkley]

Is anyone going to transpose these numbers into cinder blocks?


http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22727

1 Zion Williamson F 6-7 285 Fr. Spartanburg, S.C. (Spartanburg Day School)
2 Cam Reddish F 6-8 218 Fr. Norristown, Pa. (Westtown School)
3 Tre Jones G 6-2 183 Fr. Apple Valley, Minn. (Apple Valley)
5 R.J. Barrett F 6-7 202 Fr. Mississauga, Ont. (Montverde Academy [Fla.])
12 Javin DeLaurier F 6-10 234 Jr. Shipman, Va. (Saint Anne's-Belfield)
13 Joey Baker F 6-7 200 Fr. Fayetteville, N.C. (Trinity Christian School)
14 Jordan Goldwire G 6-2 181 So. Norcross, Ga. (Norcross)
15 Alex O'Connell G 6-6 176 So. Roswell, Ga. (Milton)
20 Marques Bolden C 6-11 250 Jr. DeSoto, Texas (DeSoto)
30 Antonio Vrankovic C 7-0 269 Sr. Zagreb, Croatia (Pine Crest School [Fla.])
41 Jack White F 6-7 222 Jr. Traralgon, Victoria, Australia (Australian Institute of Sport)
50 Justin Robinson F 6-10 202 Jr. San Antonio, Texas (San Antonio Christian Academy)
51 Mike Buckmire G 6-2 173 So. Blue Bell, Pa. (Germantown Friends School)
53 Brennan Besser G 6-5 190 Sr. Chicago, Ill. (Latin School)

[devildeac]

Is anyone going to transpose these numbers into cinder blocks?

Should we ASSume standard US CMUs?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_masonry_unit

[tteettimes]

Is anyone going to transpose these numbers into cinder blocks?


Multiplier is 0.667.......DIY 🤗🤗

[Acymetric]

Should we ASSume standard US CMUs?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_masonry_unit

Yes, except RJ Barrett will require use of the Canadian CMU (which is shared, of course, with New Zealand for obvious reasons).

[rsvman]

It occurs to me that probably the most accurate way to assess how high somebody actually jumped (not how high he/she REACHED, but how high he/she JUMPED) is by timing how long it is from when the feet leave the ground to when the land. Gravity don't lie. The only way to stay in the air longer is to jump higher.

If you had an accurate measurement, say down to the thousandth of a second, for example, you could definitely prove that one player could/could not jump higher than another.

Just a thought.

[Acymetric]

It occurs to me that probably the most accurate way to assess how high somebody actually jumped (not how high he/she REACHED, but how high he/she JUMPED) is by timing how long it is from when the feet leave the ground to when the land. Gravity don't lie. The only way to stay in the air longer is to jump higher.

If you had an accurate measurement, say down to the thousandth of a second, for example, you could definitely prove that one player could/could not jump higher than another.

Just a thought.

An accurate measurement for me might BE a thousandth of a second :cool:

[JayZee]

Quick Google on the vertc - https://www.power-systems.com/shop/product/vertec - which states that it can measure up to 12'

Zion clearly went higher, so his vert reach was more like 12'2" or 12'3" which is pretty impressive (unreal) for someone of his height+weight

I also like his "ah, shucks" type attitude.






Zion: "Hold my Powerade"

Perhaps there is variability not yet discussed. In addition to different styles of jumps, there are different body types forged in various sports (eg basketball, volleyball, high jump).
Basketball combine vs Football combine standing vertical records (NFL _only_ measures standing vertical; note that basketball players typically add 4-6 inches when allowed steps):
NBA
40" - DJ Stephens
39.5" - Nick Young, Kenny Gregory
38.5" - Dorian Finney-Smith, Alex Scales
38" - Justin Anderson, Harrison Barnes, Dwayne Mitchell
37.5" - Joel Bolomboy, Demetrius Jackson
NFL
47" - Willie Creear (at a regional combine (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/0ap3000000474059/Willie-Creear-tallies-47-inch-vertical-jump))
46" - Gerald Sensabaugh
45.5" - Cameron Wake
45" - Chris Conley, Donald Washington, Chris McKenzie, Chris Chambers
44.5" - Byron Jones
44" - AJ Jefferson, Obi Melifonwu
43.5" - 8 players

Also, consider that power lifting is used in training for vertical jumps. Here's Olympic lifter Shane Hamman (on the right): 8491
He's 5'9" and 360lbs. He can dunk from a standing position...can you? lol.
Lifter and WWF wrestler Mark "Sexual Chocolate" Henry can dunk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPnBJ4oJ2Sk), too. He's 6' 3"...but he was also 370lbs!

Is the NBA vs NFL disparity due to powerful/explosive physiology like muscle fibers, mass, or synchronization? Or, is it due to a difference in technique (2 vs 1 footed jumpers) or technical skill (practiced expertise for the combine)? Does the difference scale up for non-standing vertical jumps, too?

Robertas Javtokas (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvYgYijGCtY)), Michael Wilson (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNhE0eJe5KI&NR=1)), and Wilt Chamberlain are all reported to have dunked on a 12 foot rim. James White (reported in CDU's link above), Jeremy Evans (pic here (https://twitter.com/utahjazz/status/506914436246827008)) and Guillermo Diaz (reported here (http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4314/about-making-change-off-the-top-of-the-backboard)) all get a vertical reach around 12' 9". Dwight Howard looks to comfortably reach 12' 6", and I think even Shaq had a vertical reach of 12' 5". So, basketball players are approaching 13'. Could someone with a more explosive build, better technique, or practiced expertise do better? Could David Thompson have been that dude?

IDK. I'm just blabbering because I really, really, really want Zion to be the first myth buster on verified video record. Legend.

[sagegrouse]

It occurs to me that probably the most accurate way to assess how high somebody actually jumped (not how high he/she REACHED, but how high he/she JUMPED) is by timing how long it is from when the feet leave the ground to when the land. Gravity don't lie. The only way to stay in the air longer is to jump higher.

If you had an accurate measurement, say down to the thousandth of a second, for example, you could definitely prove that one player could/could not jump higher than another.

Just a thought.

Except that one can stay in the air longer by pulling one's legs up and landing feet and butt at the same time. Long jumpers do a variant of this to get greater distance.

[jimsumner]

It occurs to me that probably the most accurate way to assess how high somebody actually jumped (not how high he/she REACHED, but how high he/she JUMPED) is by timing how long it is from when the feet leave the ground to when the land. Gravity don't lie. The only way to stay in the air longer is to jump higher.



You never saw Elgin Baylor play. :)

I know it was an optical illusion. But it sure seemed like he could just hang in the air until the defenders just went away.

[drummerdevil]

It occurs to me that probably the most accurate way to assess how high somebody actually jumped (not how high he/she REACHED, but how high he/she JUMPED) is by timing how long it is from when the feet leave the ground to when the land. Gravity don't lie. The only way to stay in the air longer is to jump higher.

If you had an accurate measurement, say down to the thousandth of a second, for example, you could definitely prove that one player could/could not jump higher than another.

Just a thought.

Just to put this out there: I’m gonna get a lot of hang time if I jump off a cliff, whether or not I have any vertical.

[TruBlu]

Just to put this out there: I’m gonna get a lot of hang time if I jump off a cliff, whether or not I have any vertical.

Just once.

[jimsumner]

Just once.

You've heard of the circus dog that jumps off a tower 100 feet high into a pool of water six inches deep.

It's a great trick. But you can only do it once.

[Indoor66]

Just once.

Depends on the cliff. 😜😎

[rsvman]

Except that one can stay in the air longer by pulling one's legs up and landing feet and butt at the same time. Long jumpers do a variant of this to get greater distance.

Except that I'm talking about if somebody wanted to authenticate the claims on, for example, a YouTube video that purports to show somebody reaching 13 feet. He's jumping off a hard wooden floor and he's landing on his feet.

You would obviously have to use the portion of the footage that is in real time/regular speed.

[BD80]

Just to put this out there: I’m gonna get a lot of hang time if I jump off a cliff, whether or not I have any vertical.


Just once.


You've heard of the circus dog that jumps off a tower 100 feet high into a pool of water six inches deep.

It's a great trick. But you can only do it once.

It can be done multiple times, as many times as the remains are collected and pushed back off the cliff ...

[Saratoga2]

If "Dante Jones" is meant to be "Dahntay Jones," then I don't understand your numbers. Dahntay has always been listed as 6-6; I can't find the 2003 Draft Combine results to see what actual measurements were.

I have been away for a while and I was wrong about Dahntay Jones. I meant Demarcus Nelson who was 6'2 1/4 when listed at 6'4". The reference I use for player measurements in at https://stats.nba.com/draft/combine-anthro/

[jimsumner]

It can be done multiple times, as many times as the remains are collected and pushed back off the cliff ...

One of us doesn't understand the meaning of the word "jumps."

[Spanarkel]

Here is an article on the subject from ESPN about a decade ago:

http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4307/james-white-vs-a-jumping-myth

Summary: yeah, it is highly unlikely that anybody has touched the top of the backboard legitimately, let alone taken a quarter off the top, let alone left change.

They asked around amongst the best current leapers. LeBron said he couldn't. Dwight SAID he could, but wouldn't prove it. James White (considered by many to be the best dunker ever, including a between the legs dunk from the free throw line) said he could, and actually tried, but came up a few inches short on his best efforts on two different occasions.

Again, White (who is 6'7" and arguably the greatest dunker ever - seriously, his dunk highlights are silly) couldn't quite do it. Not saying it is impossible. But it's pretty close to impossible. And I'm pretty confident that David Thompson - who was unquestionably a great leaper - didn't do it either.

That's the thing: it's one of the most talked about myths out there, and is a myth that has been around for decades. If a guy could really do it, there would be legitimate video of him doing it by now.


Have you read Foul! The Connie Hawkins Story(by David Wolf)? The subject is discussed, and IIRC Hawkins states he saw a playground "legend" (not John) perform the feat, but I can't verify the height of Bed-Stuy playground backboards in the '60s.

[camion]

I found a couple of web sites that might be helpful.

This link (https://www.whatsmyvertical.com/measurement-app/) let's you play with the parameters associated with jump height, rim height, etc.
I clicked on the "example video" to bring up the calculator. I played with this one and can now estimate that I had a vertical of between 30 and 32 inches back in the sixties.


This link (https://www.whatsmyvertical.com/the-physics-of-the-vertical-jump/) contains a discussion of the physics of a vertical jump.
One of the interesting things here is that the author says that losing 10% of body weight could give an 11% increase in vertical jump (all other things being equal which they never are). There's also an interesting discussion of Hang Time.

Now if one of you folks could change the time units in the links from seconds to minutes we could turn this thread into...


Wait for it...


A MINUTES DISCUSSION. :) :p

[Neals384]

I found a couple of web sites that might be helpful.

This link (https://www.whatsmyvertical.com/measurement-app/) let's you play with the parameters associated with jump height, rim height, etc.
I clicked on the "example video" to bring up the calculator. I played with this one and can now estimate that I had a vertical of between 30 and 32 inches back in the sixties.


This link (https://www.whatsmyvertical.com/the-physics-of-the-vertical-jump/) contains a discussion of the physics of a vertical jump.
One of the interesting things here is that the author says that losing 10% of body weight could give an 11% increase in vertical jump (all other things being equal which they never are). There's also an interesting discussion of Hang Time.

Now if one of you folks could change the time units in the links from seconds to minutes we could turn this thread into...


Wait for it...


A MINUTES DISCUSSION. :) :p

Life is nothing without a good integral from time to time

[flyingdutchdevil]

I found a couple of web sites that might be helpful.

This link (https://www.whatsmyvertical.com/measurement-app/) let's you play with the parameters associated with jump height, rim height, etc.
I clicked on the "example video" to bring up the calculator. I played with this one and can now estimate that I had a vertical of between 30 and 32 inches back in the sixties.


This link (https://www.whatsmyvertical.com/the-physics-of-the-vertical-jump/) contains a discussion of the physics of a vertical jump.
One of the interesting things here is that the author says that losing 10% of body weight could give an 11% increase in vertical jump (all other things being equal which they never are). There's also an interesting discussion of Hang Time.

Now if one of you folks could change the time units in the links from seconds to minutes we could turn this thread into...


Wait for it...


A MINUTES DISCUSSION. :) :p

So AOC has a 52" vertical?

[rsvman]

I found a couple of web sites that might be helpful.

This link (https://www.whatsmyvertical.com/measurement-app/) let's you play with the parameters associated with jump height, rim height, etc.
I clicked on the "example video" to bring up the calculator. I played with this one and can now estimate that I had a vertical of between 30 and 32 inches back in the sixties.


This link (https://www.whatsmyvertical.com/the-physics-of-the-vertical-jump/) contains a discussion of the physics of a vertical jump.
One of the interesting things here is that the author says that losing 10% of body weight could give an 11% increase in vertical jump (all other things being equal which they never are). There's also an interesting discussion of Hang Time.

Now if one of you folks could change the time units in the links from seconds to minutes we could turn this thread into...


Wait for it...


A MINUTES DISCUSSION. :) :p
Mine must've been at least 28 or 29", as I could reverse jam at one point in my life.

[CDu]

Mine must've been at least 28 or 29", as I could reverse jam at one point in my life.

Either you are much taller than me or your vert was much higher than that. At 5’11” with a ~33-34” vert, I could just barely dunk a volleyball. Couldn’t palm a bball, and couldn’t get quite high enough to dunk with two hands.

[Indoor66]

Mine must've been at least 28 or 29", as I could reverse jam at one point in my life.

I can proudly state that on my best day I did not exceed 7.25".😂

[camion]

Either you are much taller than me or your vert was much higher than that. At 5’11” with a ~33-34” vert, I could just barely dunk a volleyball. Couldn’t palm a bball, and couldn’t get quite high enough to dunk with two hands.

At 5'7" I could touch the rim with my second knuckle. I did have a 6' arm span if I didn't trim my nails, but I could only palm a somewhat flat volleyball. I never had an actual measured vertical back in the day and today I'm doing very well if I can get a 34" horizontal.

[tteettimes]

I can proudly state that on my best day I did not exceed 7.25".😂


You were naturally gifted 😂😂

[rsvman]

Either you are much taller than me or your vert was much higher than that. At 5’11” with a ~33-34” vert, I could just barely dunk a volleyball. Couldn’t palm a bball, and couldn’t get quite high enough to dunk with two hands.

I'm 6'3". I'd be happy to think I had a higher vertical, but I'm not sure. My arms are pretty long, too, which helps.

I only dunked once in an actual game. I was a trailer on a fast break and my teammate's layup came off the front rim, or at least I thought it did. The ref thought otherwise and called basket interference, so it didn't even count. But it was still really fun, and I know that not everybody can even put themselves in a position to have basket interference called on them, so I was pretty happy about it.

[elvis14]

I'm 6'3". I'd be happy to think I had a higher vertical, but I'm not sure. My arms are pretty long, too, which helps.

I only dunked once in an actual game. I was a trailer on a fast break and my teammate's layup came off the front rim, or at least I thought it did. The ref thought otherwise and called basket interference, so it didn't even count. But it was still really fun, and I know that not everybody can even put themselves in a position to have basket interference called on them, so I was pretty happy about it.

Only thing I ever dunked was a tennis ball. I'm 5'7" with short arms and small hands. I used to be able to jump. Played doubles volleyball in the sand on July 4th and seemed like I only really jumped twice. Time is undefeated (unless perhaps you are Darrell Green) At 51, I'm pretty sure I can't even touch the rim anymore.

I had one of those "how did that happen" moments playing basketball when I was in my 20's also as the trailer on a fast break but as the defender. The layup came off the front rim and I went up for the rebound and basically swiped it off the rim. Maybe there was a large tail wind or something because it was the only time I ever was able to do that. I wasn't even close to being able to dunk it like rsvman did but just to have one play above the rim was so cool.

[Dukeford]

Also, consider that power lifting is used in training for vertical jumps. Here's Olympic lifter Shane Hamman (on the right): 8491
He's 5'9" and 360lbs. He can dunk from a standing position...can you? lol.


Show me the tapes..........

[Saratoga2]

Either you are much taller than me or your vert was much higher than that. At 5’11” with a ~33-34” vert, I could just barely dunk a volleyball. Couldn’t palm a bball, and couldn’t get quite high enough to dunk with two hands. and played

I am 6'1" stocking feet and played at about 185#, with a 34" shirt sleeve. I could get over the rim up to my wrist bone but had farmers hands, broad but with short fingers so no palming the ball. Really couldn't dunk even though I could go over the rim. When I played, basketball shoes were canvas and there wasn't much design in them. I thought of myself as a very good athlete but I am in awe of guys today who can literally jump out of the Gym.

When I read about AOC, who is 6'6" I presume in shoes and is long to boot and has gained 13 pounds, he has no problem dunking at all. The miracle is a guy at the same height and weighing 285 that probably can hit his head on the rim. Incredible.

[NSDukeFan]

I was able to literally jump out of the gym in my prime, but that was just because I was at the exit. I think I could still do it.

[OldPhiKap]

I was able to literally jump out of the gym in my prime, but that was just because I was at the exit. I think I could still do it.

“You must spread some Comments around before commenting on NSDukeFan again.”

[jimsumner]

There's a saying.

The older I get, the better I was.

Well, I'm in late, late middle-age and I still wasn't very good.

I'm 5-10 and I could touch the net.

On a good day.

But I made up for my mediocre athleticism and size with an even more mediocre skill set.

[JasonEvans]

There's a saying.

The older I get, the better I was.

Well, I'm in late, late middle-age and I still wasn't very good.

I'm 5-10 and I could touch the net.

On a good day.

But I made up for my mediocre athleticism and size with an even more mediocre skill set.

Sounds like we need to play each other.

I was 5-10 in 7th grade and was a really good post player.

Fast forward to senior year and I was... wait for it... 5-11 1/2.

I was no longer a good post player.

[camion]

Sounds like we need to play each other.

I was 5-10 in 7th grade and was a really good post player.

Fast forward to senior year and I was... wait for it... 5-11 1/2.

I was no longer a good post player.

I can relate. In the 8th grade my best friend and I were both 5'6" and were guards on the elementary school basketball team. In the 12th grade we were 5'7" and 6'1".

Luckily we went to a small school where they needed bodies to fill out the athletic teams so we were still teammates as high school seniors.

[johnb]

Sounds like we need to play each other.

I was 5-10 in 7th grade and was a really good post player.

Fast forward to senior year and I was... wait for it... 5-11 1/2.

I was no longer a good post player.

I was a 5'11.5" post player at age 18, and I was a star.

The trick is to play against one's younger brothers who, at the time, were 14, 9, and 6.

The word domination comes to mind.

[BLPOG]

There's a saying.

The older I get, the better I was.

Well, I'm in late, late middle-age and I still wasn't very good.

I'm 5-10 and I could touch the net.

On a good day.

But I made up for my mediocre athleticism and size with an even more mediocre skill set.

I may not be very tall, but... (https://youtu.be/BK-IkAUl4rQ?t=89)

[Dukeford]

Sounds like we need to play each other.

I was 5-10 in 7th grade and was a really good post player.

Fast forward to senior year and I was... wait for it... 5-11 1/2.

I was no longer a good post player.

Same here. Almost the exact same measurements. And I always said.......
5-10 1/2 in eighth grade = shot blocker, but 5-11 1/2 in 12th grade = shot blockee

[OldPhiKap]

I’ve got Spud Webb height, but not Spud Webb hops.

[devildeac]

“You must spread some Comments around before commenting on NSDukeFan again.”

Alas, I am unable to cover you on this one, OPK. Sorry.

Funny stuff by NSDukeFan.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Same here. Almost the exact same measurements. And I always said....
5-10 1/2 in eighth grade = shot blocker, but 5-11 1/2 in 12th grade = shot blockee

Can confirm. Was my current height of 6 foot in the 7th grade.

[Indoor66]

There's a saying.

The older I get, the better I was.

Well, I'm in late, late middle-age and I still wasn't very good.

I'm 5-10 and I could touch the net.

On a good day.

But I made up for my mediocre athleticism and size with an even more mediocre skill set.

That reminds me of how I often play cards: I had terrible cards and played them quite poorly.

[DukeFanSince1990]

8536

:eek:

[budwom]

I hope Zion gets on a scale in Canada, a country known for non fake weights.

[devildeac]

I hope Zion gets on a scale in Canada, a country known for non fake weights.

But, but, but, then we'll have to worry about currency and weight conversion factors. :rolleyes:;)

[WHOneedsSOX]

Sounds like we need to play each other.

I was 5-10 in 7th grade and was a really good post player.

Fast forward to senior year and I was... wait for it... 5-11 1/2.

I was no longer a good post player.

Complete opposite for me. 4'10 as a freshman in high school, 5' as a sophomore. Played point guard only those two years. Junior year I come back for fall season 5'8 and was made into a forward/center (really short Asian only school lol. If you were 5'10+, you were automatically center). Went from guarding quick guards to guarding 6'2 200 pound centers. Oh and I grew upwards but not outwards. Think I was around 5'8 120 pounds.

[DevilHorse]

I was looking at the thread, and thinking that Zion might be foul prone if he attempts to use his gifts inside on offense. A usual freshman malady.

His physique reminds me (somewhat) of Lorenzo Charles as an upper class-man. Long arms and he was stronger than anyone on the other team at 6'7". Lorenzo developed a 10 foot shot that was unstoppable in college, but still was able to rebound. No one was able to push him around. Perhaps as an upper class-man he had the respect of the refs and got many calls.

Zion is 60 lbs heavier at the same height. People will be bouncing off of him, no matter what he does, and he will be given the credit (fouls). With the slight move outside, Zion can avoid the initial banging, use his significant reach to get separation on the shot, and cut down on the fouls to stay in the game.

Maybe his freshman year will end the same way as Lorenzo's.

Larry
DevilHorse

[left_hook_lacey]

I was 5'7" the first time I truly dunked in a gym on a regulation goal. I was in 14 and in 9th grade. Me and a couple of other guys spent our entire PE period for MONTHS trying to be the first one to dunk out of our little group. Once I realized I was close, that's all I did in PE everyday. Throw it up, let it bounce, have a friend toss a short ally, throw it off the backboard, we practiced them all to try to get a clean flush.

Finally caught one off the bounce and threw it down flush, like I had been doing it my whole life. By the end of the year, I was dunking with one hand with ease. I could only ever dunk with two hands off an ally or rebound. I was the fan favorite in our dunk contests that year during the basketball pep rally. :)

I had long arms for my height, that I eventually grew into. I could also palm a regulation ball, which helped.

[JetpackJesus]

Complete opposite for me. 4'10 as a freshman in high school, 5' as a sophomore. Played point guard only those two years. Junior year I come back for fall season 5'8 and was made into a forward/center (really short Asian only school lol. If you were 5'10+, you were automatically center). Went from guarding quick guards to guarding 6'2 200 pound centers. Oh and I grew upwards but not outwards. Think I was around 5'8 120 pounds. I can somewhat relate to this experience, but as an adult. I'm 6'1 now and grew up playing guard/wing. When I moved to Hawaii I suddenly became a 4/5 in the vast majority of the games I play. I'm still trying to figure out playing in the post on the offensive side of the floor.


I was 5'7" the first time I truly dunked in a gym on a regulation goal. I was in 14 and in 9th grade. Me and a couple of other guys spent our entire PE period for MONTHS trying to be the first one to dunk out of our little group. Once I realized I was close, that's all I did in PE everyday. Throw it up, let it bounce, have a friend toss a short ally, throw it off the backboard, we practiced them all to try to get a clean flush.

Finally caught one off the bounce and threw it down flush, like I had been doing it my whole life. By the end of the year, I was dunking with one hand with ease. I could only ever dunk with two hands off an ally or rebound. I was the fan favorite in our dunk contests that year during the basketball pep rally. :)

I had long arms for my height, that I eventually grew into. I could also palm a regulation ball, which helped.
The palming the ball thing is huge. I could dunk a soccer ball when I was in HS, but I could never do a basketball because I couldn't palm it high enough in my hand to snap my wrist down to finish the dunk without the ball catching the rim.

[OldPhiKap]

Sorry if this is already posted -- but Zion's measurements are blowing up the internet:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/twitter-reacts-to-zion-williamson’s-unreal-measurements/ar-BBLkMPW?ocid=spartandhp

[OldPhiKap]

Sorry if this is already posted -- but Zion's measurements are blowing up the internet:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/twitter-reacts-to-zion-williamson’s-unreal-measurements/ar-BBLkMPW?ocid=spartandhp

Too late to edit, so I'll add:

I do not really follow recruiting so I had not seen the videos linked at the bottom of the article. That was when Zion was SIXTEEN.

Holy burrito!!!

[UrinalCake]

According to Twitter there is only one player in the NBA heavier than Zion - 7’3 Boban Marjanovic who is listed at 290.

[BD80]

According to Twitter there is only one player in the NBA heavier than Zion - 7’3 Boban Marjanovic who is listed at 290.

I think his comps should be TEs, DEs and OLBs

Can you imagine being a 6' 200lb safety tasked with stopping Zion over the middle of the field once he's built up a head of steam?

How many games until the first over-coached foolhardy sap tries to take a charge against Zion on his way to the basket? Will there be identifiable remains?

[devildeac]

I think his comps should be TEs, DEs and OLBs

Can you imagine being a 6' 200lb safety tasked with stopping Zion over the middle of the field once he's built up a head of steam?

How many games until the first over-coached foolhardy sap tries to take a charge against Zion on his way to the basket? Will there be identifiable remains?

Zion will immediately called for a flagrant foul, be ejected and serve a one game suspension. :rolleyes::mad:

[rsvman]

Zion will immediately called for a flagrant foul, be ejected and serve a one game suspension. :rolleyes::mad:

...and Daniel Ewing will get a technical foul.

[OldPhiKap]

Zion will immediately called for a flagrant foul, be ejected and serve a one game suspension. :rolleyes::mad:

you kid (kinda) -- but Zion's gonna pick up a bunch of fouls in the post just being there. How can you not bounce off that guy?

[devildeac]

you kid (kinda) -- but Zion's gonna pick up a bunch of fouls in the post just being there. How can you not bounce off that guy?

Sad, but (likely) true. :mad:

[elvis14]

Just imagine if the refs decided to give him be benefit of the doubt like they did that goofy bug eyed Cheater a few years back (when there were 2 sets of rules in CBB for 4 years). If Zion was allowed to just lower his shoulder knock people back, lay the ball in and and get an 'and 1' over and over again like HansCheater. As Duke fans we know that refs don't want to be seen helping us out so we just assume that Zion will pick up lots of fouls (especially charges) just because he's such a beast.

It's hard not to get too excited about this kid, even though he's a one and done.

[UrinalCake]

The key will be using his quickness to get a step on his man, who will then have to foul from behind. If he tries to just barrel through his defender then yeah he’s gonna pick up a lot of fouls.

Keep in mind that at 6’6 or 6’7 he’s going to be defended by some 6’8 or taller power forwards. If he gets switched onto a center in the post then he could be facing a seven footer who weighs 250. He’s not going to push those types of players around like he did in high school playing against the lollipop guild. I think his height and length are going to prevent him from simply having his way in the post, and he’ll have to develop other areas of his game.

[plimnko]

I think his height and length are going to prevent him from simply having his way in the post, and he’ll have to develop other areas of his game.

i agree he'll have to develop other areas of his game, but charles barkley wasn't the tallest guy either and williamson has a few inches and pounds on him. it
is going to be fun watching him adjust to the next level.

[JayZee]

I'm looking forward to Zion taking a charge and standing his ground without flopping. How will the refs call it when an offensive player barrels into a stationary Zion and just gets laid out.

[BD80]

Zion will immediately called for a flagrant foul, be ejected and serve a one game suspension. :rolleyes::mad:

Another issue: the defensive player must have position before Zion leaves the floor.

If Zion leaves the floor at the free throw line, there is a LOT of time for simpletons to slide into his path but still be outside the arc. How are those calls to be made (other than 911 and DOA)?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Another issue: the defensive player must have position before Zion leaves the floor.

If Zion leaves the floor at the free throw line, there is a LOT of time for simpletons to slide into his path but still be outside the arc. How are those calls to be made (other than 911 and DOA)?

So what you're telling me is AOC has no chance of survival in practice?

[PackMan97]

I wonder if Coach Cutcliffe has put in a call to Coach K yet? It seems like this Zion kid could have some football potential. His dad to have a scholarship to play at NC State before transferring to Livingston.

The more I think about it, the more I think the gridiron is the place for this kid. It has nothing at all to do with not wanting to see him on the floor opposite my basketball team. State and Duke don't play in football this year do we?

[devildeac]

I wonder if Coach Cutcliffe has put in a call to Coach K yet? It seems like this Zion kid could have some football potential. His dad to have a scholarship to play at NC State before transferring to Livingston.

The more I think about it, the more I think the gridiron is the place for this kid. It has nothing at all to do with not wanting to see him on the floor opposite my basketball team. State and Duke don't play in football this year do we?

Clever stuff there, PackMan. Not gonna work however. ;)

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Clever stuff there, PackMan. Not gonna work however. ;)

But in fairness, Zion could probably be an all world football tight end.

[tteettimes]

WOW——allthis speculation over Zion man.......can’t wait ‘til he tees it up for real..
Gonna really be something to behold

[devildeac]

But in fairness, Zion could probably be an all world football tight end.

Q: Where does a 6'7" 285 lb young man play?

A: Anywhere he wants.

(well, not really but...)

[NSDukeFan]

WOW——allthis speculation over Zion man....can’t wait ‘til he tees it up for real..
Gonna really be something to behold

He’s not a golfer, too, is he?

[bluedevilsince72]

Maybe I missed it, but has Zion's body fat been listed? I dont care how much he weighs if his body fat is low number.

[budwom]

Maybe I missed it, but has Zion's body fat been listed? I dont care how much he weighs if his body fat is low number.

his weight has been listed, but I'll bet it isn't accurate....he's trimmer now than when he weighed 272. I'm going to get one of my Canadian friends to lure him onto a scale in a few weeks, still working out the details.

[JasonEvans]

But in fairness, Zion could probably be an all world football tight end.

With his hands, he would be an automatic touchdown any time a team was inside the 10 yard line. Toss it up and he would get it. No corner or safety would have a chance. Even a big linebacker -- say a kid who was 6-4, 230 -- would have very little shot of stopping TE Zion.

I am sure he is going to make a mint at basketball, but if it does not work out he could probably step on a football field right now and be one of the top TEs in the game. How scary is that?

[devildeac]

his weight has been listed, but I'll bet it isn't accurate...he's trimmer now than when he weighed 272. I'm going to get one of my Canadian friends to lure him onto a scale in a few weeks, still working out the details.

Please be sure the current exchange rate is correct when you report to us. :rolleyes:

[NSDukeFan]

Please be sure the current exchange rate is correct when you report to us. :rolleyes:

1 kilogram = approximately 2.2 pounds = ? cinder blocks (imperial) = ? cinder blocks (metric)
We might need a bigger scale for Zion though.

[nmduke2001]

With his hands, he would be an automatic touchdown any time a team was inside the 10 yard line. Toss it up and he would get it. No corner or safety would have a chance. Even a big linebacker -- say a kid who was 6-4, 230 -- would have very little shot of stopping TE Zion.

I am sure he is going to make a mint at basketball, but if it does not work out he could probably step on a football field right now and be one of the top TEs in the game. How scary is that?

I've thought for a while now that an NFL team should take the former basketball player as a tight-end plan up a notch and sign someone like Marshall Plumlee. Even if he is only used in "and goal" situations, how could any team possibly defend a 7-footer with decent bulk and athleticism without fouling him?

[jimsumner]

I've thought for a while now that an NFL team should take the former basketball player as a tight-end plan up a notch and sign someone like Marshall Plumlee. Even if he is only used in "and goal" situations, how could any team possibly defend a 7-footer with decent bulk and athleticism without fouling him?

Former Duke basketball player Mike Tissaw had an NFL tryout. Cowboys, I believe.

6-8, 230. What could go wrong?

Unfortunately, they discovered that Tissaw wasn't very good at actually catching the football.

Which would have been apparent had they bothered to watch him play basketball.

That said, guys like Jimmy Graham and Antonio Gates made the transition with more success.

[JNort]

Former Duke basketball player Mike Tissaw had an NFL tryout. Cowboys, I believe.

6-8, 230. What could go wrong?

Unfortunately, they discovered that Tissaw wasn't very good at actually catching the football.

Which would have been apparent had they bothered to watch him play basketball.

That said, guys like Jimmy Graham and Antonio Gates made the transition with more success.
The cowboys have a guy right now actually (unless he's been cut) in Rico Gathers (sp?). I always wanted Semi when he was at Duke to transition to football at tight end.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Former Duke basketball player Mike Tissaw had an NFL tryout. Cowboys, I believe.

6-8, 230. What could go wrong?

Unfortunately, they discovered that Tissaw wasn't very good at actually catching the football.

Which would have been apparent had they bothered to watch him play basketball.



Yeah, of all the athletic big guys I've seen in hoops that I've thought could've been a great tight end, Tissaw was not among them.....

[Dukeford]

I was looking at the thread, and thinking that Zion might be foul prone if he attempts to use his gifts inside on offense. A usual freshman malady.

His physique reminds me (somewhat) of Lorenzo Charles as an upper class-man. Long arms and he was stronger than anyone on the other team at 6'7". Lorenzo developed a 10 foot shot that was unstoppable in college, but still was able to rebound. No one was able to push him around. Perhaps as an upper class-man he had the respect of the refs and got many calls.

Zion is 60 lbs heavier at the same height. People will be bouncing off of him, no matter what he does, and he will be given the credit (fouls). With the slight move outside, Zion can avoid the initial banging, use his significant reach to get separation on the shot, and cut down on the fouls to stay in the game.

Maybe his freshman year will end the same way as Lorenzo's.

Larry
DevilHorse

Except for the pizza stuff.

[dukelifer]

Yeah, of all the athletic big guys I've seen in hoops that I've thought could've been a great tight end, Tissaw was not among them....

Tissaw maybe had the worst hands I have ever seen of a Duke player- I think we used to say he had hands of stones- and not in a good way.

[budwom]

Tissaw maybe had the worst hands I have ever seen of a Duke player- I think we used to say he had hands of stones- and not in a good way.

did you ever see Casey Sanders play?

[oldnavy]

Barkley played in the NFL? I did not know that.

[OldPhiKap]

did you ever see Casey Sanders play?

And Greg anew Ron says hello.

[AGDukesky]

did you ever see Casey Sanders play?

Or Greg Newton...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

did you ever see Casey Sanders play?

In fairness, I think Tissaw played a lot more than Sanders......so his hands were more of a problem.

[Dukeford]

Or Greg Newton...

Newton had much better hands that MP1, and maybe MP3.
The lackluster end to his Duke career causes many people to forget that he was a very athletic big man, with a good turnaround jumper.

[jimsumner]

Tissaw played like he was wearing oven mitts.

Worse hands than Sanders.

To be fair, he was a 6-8. 230-pound power forward recruited by Bill Foster to play zone who ended up as an under-sized center for Mike Krzyzewski, trying to play m2m against folks like Ralph Sampson and Sam Perkins. He was just over-matched for what he was asked to do.

For a season and a half, Greg Newton was a very productive ACC center. As a junior, in 1996, he averaged 12.2 ppg and 8.2 rpg, figures well beyond anything Tissaw, Sanders or Miles Plumlee managed.

But he just fell apart down the stretch of his senior year.

[OldPhiKap]

Newton had much better hands that MP1, and maybe MP3.
The lackluster end to his Duke career causes many people to forget that he was a very athletic big man, with a good turnaround jumper.

My memory disagrees about Greg’s hands.

[MartyClark]

My memory disagrees about Greg’s hands.

Who you gonna believe, your memory or DBR?

[Indoor66]

Who you gonna believe, your memory or DBR?

Is that a trick question?

[jimsumner]

Newton had an infamous fumble at the end of a game at Clemson, that cost him an uncontested game-winner and cost Duke a game.

That play might be clouding people's memories. It was brutal.

But I believe he had significantly better hands or hand-eye coordination than Tissaw or Sanders or several other players mentioned upthread.

Newton was a bit on the thin size and didn't have much range on his shot. But he was very athletic for a player his size and was very effective when his head was on straight.

Which, unfortunately, wasn't all the time.

Figuratively speaking, of course.

[Acymetric]

I liked Sanders, but he was the poster child for bad hands, everyone else is "competing" for second.

[plimnko]

Barkley played in the NFL? I did not know that.

CHARLES BARKLEY
These were his words: "I played football for one day. I gave my equipment to the coach and said, 'Thank you, this is a bit too stressful for me.'"

I could not find any connection between Charles Barkley and any NFL team. From the above quote........I'm thinking he didn't.

[UrinalCake]

Newton had an infamous fumble at the end of a game at Clemson, that cost him an uncontested game-winner and cost Duke a game.

That play might be clouding people's memories. It was brutal.

A good buddy of mine had a theory that that play was somewhat of a turning point for Newton’s career, from which he never recovered. I don’t know if the numbers bear it out, but he never seemed like the same player afterwards. It really took away his confidence. I do agree that aside from that play, his hands never seemed like an issue.

Sanders had butterfingers early in his career but by 2001 when he stepped in for Boozer and we made our run, he was much more confident and could at least finish off the bunnies around the rim.

[Pghdukie]

CHARLES BARKLEY
These were his words: "I played football for one day. I gave my equipment to the coach and said, 'Thank you, this is a bit too stressful for me.'"

I could not find any connection between Charles Barkley and any NFL team. From the above quote....I'm thinking he didn't.

I believe Sir Charles played football for 1day at Auburn. Afterwards, he knew basketball was his love.

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain

[budwom]

A good buddy of mine had a theory that that play was somewhat of a turning point for Newton’s career, from which he never recovered. I don’t know if the numbers bear it out, but he never seemed like the same player afterwards. It really took away his confidence. I do agree that aside from that play, his hands never seemed like an issue.

Sanders had butterfingers early in his career but by 2001 when he stepped in for Boozer and we made our run, he was much more confident and could at least finish off the bunnies around the rim.

Well, maybe Casey finished off A bunny around the rim, he averaged all of 2.5 pts/game, I think everyone concluded that throwing him the ball was a dubious tactic.

[jimsumner]

A good buddy of mine had a theory that that play was somewhat of a turning point for Newton’s career, from which he never recovered. I don’t know if the numbers bear it out, but he never seemed like the same player afterwards. It really took away his confidence. I do agree that aside from that play, his hands never seemed like an issue.



I agree on the importance of that Clemson game relative to Newton's decline.

But there was a play earlier that season that may also have begun the downward spiral. Duke hosting Michigan. Duke up by one late. Michigan's Robert "Tractor" Traylor, who weighed in the neighborhood of 300 pounds, give or take a big mac or three, got the ball at the top of the circle and thundered down the lane. Newton was in position to draw a charge.

He opted not to, stepping out of the way, as Traylor converted the game winner.

Now, I'm sure not going to try to draw a charge on Traylor. But I'm not a scholarship basketball player at Duke, with a game on the line.

I suspect things were said.

The curious thing is that Newton was the best player on that team for about the first 10 games or so.

Then it just unraveled. He ended his career as a DNP-CD in an NCAAT loss to Providence in which an under-sized Duke team was mauled on the inside by Derrick Brown and Austin Croshere. K just would not play him by that point. At all, under the direst necessity.

[budwom]

Then it just unraveled. He ended his career as a DNP-CD in an NCAAT loss to Providence in which an under-sized Duke team was mauled on the inside by Derrick Brown and Austin Croshere. K just would not play him by that point. At all, under the direst necessity.

But in all fairness Providence had God playing point guard that game...nice thinking of Greg these days with the Beaver Land tour coming up next week...

[UrinalCake]

[But in all fairness Providence had God playing point guard that game...

We needed to bring back Christian Laettner, in more ways than one.

[jacone21]

I will always have a spot in my heart for Casey after the way he stepped up in 2001. He did his absolute best with what he had... when Duke needed him most.

[dukelifer]

did you ever see Casey Sanders play?

Saw them both play and while Sanders was not great- Tissaw was worse in my opinion. But Tissaw was a smart guy- got his PhD and I believe is a psychology professor.

[jimsumner]

But in all fairness Providence had God playing point guard that game...nice thinking of Greg these days with the Beaver Land tour coming up next week...

But Duke had the Devils. :)

Some additional thoughts on Newton.

Ironically, he had the best game of his career the game before the Michigan game I referenced upthread.

Many of us remember the Duke-FSU game in Cameron for a different reason. Jeff Capel had such a miserable game for Duke that a large portion of the fanbase let out an audible groan when Capel re-entered the game late. Capel claims he heard boos.

What is usually forgotten is that Duke still won that game, in overtime. Newton had 21 points and 13 rebounds, battling against some pretty good FSU bigs, Corey Louis, Randell Jackson.

He looked like an All-ACC player that night.

Ironically, redux, Newton's season fell apart, while Capel regrouped and played the best basketball of his career down the stretch of his senior year.

But, neither Casey Sanders nor Mike Tissaw ever sniffed a 21/13 line against a good ACC team. The end of Newton's career shouldn't blind us to the fact that for a decent interval of time, he was a pretty good college basketball player.

[UrinalCake]

I remember Newton having a really strong game against Tim Duncan, a game which we ultimately lost but it felt like Newton was finally realizng the potential that he had only occasionally shown. By the end of his senior year though, there were all kinds of rumors flying around campus - that he was in K’s dog house, he had been kicked out of practice, etc.

Since Mr. Sumner mentioned Tractor Traylor (and in an attempt to get this thread back on track), I wonder how his game will compare to Zion’s. Wikipedia lists him at 6’9 290lb, I would have pegged him as heavier. While he didn’t have Zion’s hops, he was still pretty mobile for a guy his size, and like Zion nobody was going to take a charge from him.

[OldPhiKap]

I have trouble getting past the story of K throwing Newton out of practice, then commenting that Newton would probably react by just going to get another tattoo. Also forgot, until I looked it up, that he was suspended for cheating on a computer exam.

I was excited when Newton committed — remember reading about how he likened paint defense to hockey, and recalling Dan Meagher’s toughness and the natural (though forced) comparison. And he had some moments.

Casey Sanders arguably saved a championship season. Always has a soft spot in my heart.

[Truth&Justise]

I have trouble getting past the story of K throwing Newton out of practice, then commenting that Newton would probably react by just going to get another tattoo. Also forgot, until I looked it up, that he was suspended for cheating on a computer exam.

I was excited when Newton committed — remember reading about how he likened paint defense to hockey, and recalling Dan Meagher’s toughness and the natural (though forced) comparison. And he had some moments.

Casey Sanders arguably saved a championship season. Always has a soft spot in my heart.

That story is covered in this excerpt from A March to Madness (https://books.google.com/books?id=OuJHDQAAQBAJ&lpg=PT289&ots=3Yxuf2-vmZ&dq=a%20march%20to%20madness%20krzyzewski%20newton&pg=PT285#v=onepage&q&f=false), John Feinstein's book that covers the 1997 ACC season. The parts on Duke are phenomenal. Newton is a central figure. Fascinating to get a first hand account of how K rebuilt and restored the program's standards after falling from great heights in the mid 90s.

Hopefully that ties up this segue on Greg Newton. Now back to Zion. I continue to believe it's a transposition error and he's actually 258 pounds.

[rsvman]

I love checking up on the Greg Newton thread everyday. I think he's been working on his hands during the summer and is going to be great for us this coming season. Reports coming out of scrimmages and practices are that he catches like Jerry Rice now. Casey Sanders is coming along, too; maybe not quite as well, but something along the lines of Randy Moss, which is a vast improvement.

Oh, and here's something I just found out! There's also this new kid named, I think, Zion something-or-other. From South Carolina, I heard. Rumor is that he's pretty strong and apparently he can jump pretty high, too. I'll believe it when I see it, though, you know?

[budwom]

fwiw, Zion now says he weighs 271 which seems much more logical (Devil's Den interview).

[jimsumner]

I love checking up on the Greg Newton thread everyday. I think he's been working on his hands during the summer and is going to be great for us this coming season. Reports coming out of scrimmages and practices are that he catches like Jerry Rice now. Casey Sanders is coming along, too; maybe not quite as well, but something along the lines of Randy Moss, which is a vast improvement.

Oh, and here's something I just found out! There's also this new kid named, I think, Zion something-or-other. From South Carolina, I heard. Rumor is that he's pretty strong and apparently he can jump pretty high, too. I'll believe it when I see it, though, you know?

But how are his hands? Are they as good as Mike Tissaw's?

[UrinalCake]

fwiw, Zion now says he weighs 271 which seems much more logical (Devil's Den interview).

I believe he was listed around 270 in high school. So I guess he gained the freshman 15 (I blame Bojangles personally) and then lost it. :)

[rsvman]

But how are his hands? Are they as good as Mike Tissaw's?

Better. I'm told they are as good as Nick Horvath's.

[UrinalCake]

They talked about Zion on the Jump


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtYtiY5yl-k

[Kedsy]

They talked about Zion on the Jump


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtYtiY5yl-k

"I hear Duke plans to play him a lot at center."

Hmm.

[swiseman]

I had a chance to sit down with Zion this week. He's a personable kid who is very comfortable in his own skin. Pretty amazing for an 18-year-old. The video with this story provides some insight into his personality. Also, more information from this interview will appear in future stories. I'll share when they are published.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article216334740.html

[gep]

I had a chance to sit down with Zion this week. He's a personable kid who is very comfortable in his own skin. Pretty amazing for an 18-year-old. The video with this story provides some insight into his personality. Also, more information from this interview will appear in future stories. I'll share when they are published.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article216334740.html

Thank you very much for the article. The last paragraph stands out for me...

***********
"If it’s there its there, but this is college, not high school anymore,” Williamson said. “I can’t afford to do the highlight dunk and miss it because, if I do that, I’ll be sitting right on the bench besides the coaches. So if it’s there and we have a reasonable lead, maybe. But, if not, two points, get back on defense.”
***********

Probably even if he makes the highlight dunk, he might spend more time on the bench than otherwise :cool:

[devildeac]

I had a chance to sit down with Zion this week. He's a personable kid who is very comfortable in his own skin. Pretty amazing for an 18-year-old. The video with this story provides some insight into his personality. Also, more information from this interview will appear in future stories. I'll share when they are published.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article216334740.html

Wait, you cover Duke hoops, too;)? Yes, please-more stories like this one. Thanks again, Steve!!

[UrinalCake]

Probably even if he makes the highlight dunk, he might spend more time on the bench than otherwise :cool:

His statement shows a lot of maturity in understanding that he needs to finish the play ahead of showboating. OTOH, he also says at the tail end of this interview that his mindset is to “break the rim” when dunking. So I think he wants to stay aggressive too.

link (https://twitter.com/marchmadness/status/1027193472720297989)

[jimsumner]

His statement shows a lot of maturity in understanding that he needs to finish the play ahead of showboating. OTOH, he also says at the tail end of this interview that his mindset is to “break the rim” when dunking. So I think he wants to stay aggressive too.

link (https://twitter.com/marchmadness/status/1027193472720297989)

But if he breaks the rim during the game, then it's going to take a long time to clean it up and put up a new one and we'll all be up in the middle of the night, ruining my deadline and keeping me up past my bedtime.

But it would be cool. :)

[gep]

But if he breaks the rim during the game, then it's going to take a long time to clean it up and put up a new one and we'll all be up in the middle of the night, ruining my deadline and keeping me up past my bedtime.

But it would be cool. :)

Best accomplished at shoe-nc...:cool:

[tbyers11]

But if he breaks the rim during the game, then it's going to take a long time to clean it up and put up a new one and we'll all be up in the middle of the night, ruining my deadline and keeping me up past my bedtime.

But it would be cool. :)

That reminds of the time a Wake walk-on Ed Kargbookorogie broke a backboard at Cameron during warmups during my senior year in 1999. That set the start of the game back over an hour. Luckily it was a weekend afternoon game so deadlines weren't so tight.

May Zion break his rim during a day game as well :)

[Troublemaker]

"I hear Duke plans to play him a lot at center."

Hmm.

I hope Givony's sources are correct. Always been a fan of this idea.

[budwom]

^ but Duke doesn't have positions! (except when we do).

[BD80]

"I hear Duke plans to play him a lot at center."

Hmm.

So he jumps center to start the game …

I guess this means Bolden will be our stretch 4 ...

[flyingdutchdevil]

So he jumps center to start the game …

I guess this means Bolden will be our stretch 4 ...

Poor Bolden...

If Zion plays center, that means either White or AOC need to ready to play starter minutes. Nothing has indicated this is the case, although stranger things have happened.

What I'm worried about is Zion's conditioning. If Zion will play some C and has conditioning issues, does that mean he won't play much 4? And if that happens, do Bolden/DeLaurier's minutes get squeezed (again)?

[UrinalCake]

Zion at center doesn’t surprise me at all. Bolden will play maybe 25 minutes, so for the other 15 we’ll need someone else. Zion with Jones/Barrett/Alex/Reddish = death lineup.

[OldPhiKap]

So he jumps center to start the game …



Given that he set the Duke record for standing jump, I sure hope so!

[Kedsy]

If Zion plays center, that means either White or AOC need to ready to play starter minutes.

True, or at least serious sixth man minutes. My guess would be AOC over White.


Nothing has indicated this is the case, although stranger things have happened.

Well, assuming the guy's sources are accurate, something suggests it will be the case.


And if that happens, do Bolden/DeLaurier's minutes get squeezed (again)?

Yeah, this concerns me as well. Also, how well will a lineup of Zion/Tre/RJ/Alex/Cam defend?


Zion with Jones/Barrett/Alex/Reddish = death lineup.

It's only a death lineup if all five guys can shoot.

[phaedrus]

Given that he set the Duke record for standing jump, I sure hope so!

Our last national championship team wasn't so good at the tip-offs. Hopefully there's no connection.

[kAzE]

"I hear Duke plans to play him a lot at center."

Hmm.

I knew it . . .

I don't think he'll start at center, but I certainly think he will be playing a good amount of center when Bolden is on the bench (maybe 10-15 minutes a game). He's obviously big/strong enough to hold his ground on defense against opposing centers, and his skill set on the other end would cause major problems for big guys trying to defend him out on the perimeter. Not sure why there was so much push back when I first suggested that Zion should play center (back in the Joe Cremo thread, I think).

He's definitely not suited to play small forward, I just think he wouldn't be able to defend a lot of the guys who play the 3 in college. Putting Zion in at center just seems like a great way to exploit his unique abilities.

[OldPhiKap]

Q: Where does Zion Williamson play?

A: Any darn place he wants.

[budwom]

It's only a death lineup if all five guys can shoot.

yeah, at this point it's more a lineup of severe injury or major discomfort even...lots still to be proven by this group, as individually talented as they are.

[devildeac]

Q: Where does a 6'7" 285 lb young man play?

A: Anywhere he wants.

(well, not really but...)


Q: Where does Zion Williamson play?

A: Any darn place he wants.

Great minds and all that stuff...

;)

[rtnorthrup]

I had a chance to sit down with Zion this week. He's a personable kid who is very comfortable in his own skin. Pretty amazing for an 18-year-old. The video with this story provides some insight into his personality. Also, more information from this interview will appear in future stories. I'll share when they are published.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article216334740.html

Ive been watching a lot of the Duke Basketball videos on YouTube from this summer, and the thing that stood out the most to me has been Zion's personality. His personality is as big as his frame. Seems like a wonderful young man to be around. Quickly becoming one of my favorites.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I knew it . . .

I don't think he'll start at center, but I certainly think he will be playing a good amount of center when Bolden is on the bench (maybe 10-15 minutes a game). He's obviously big/strong enough to hold his ground on defense against opposing centers, and his skill set on the other end would cause major problems for big guys trying to defend him out on the perimeter. Not sure why there was so much push back when I first suggested that Zion should play center (back in the Joe Cremo thread, I think).

He's definitely not suited to play small forward, I just think he wouldn't be able to defend a lot of the guys who play the 3 in college. Putting Zion in at center just seems like a great way to exploit his unique abilities.

Because we actually have depth at the 5 whereas we have no depth on the guards or wings. The surefire 6 in the rotation are the 4 frosh, Bolden, and DeLaurier. AOC and White are still TBD. They should be in, but this is Coach K we're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't crack the rotation.

[kAzE]

Because we actually have depth at the 5 whereas we have no depth on the guards or wings. The surefire 6 in the rotation are the 4 frosh, Bolden, and DeLaurier. AOC and White are still TBD. They should be in, but this is Coach K we're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't crack the rotation.

Do we really? I guess if you're counting Vrankovic, then yes, but I would rather Zion guard centers than Javin. Javin seems much more useful as a help defender on the wings, because of his length and quickness. He's probably gotten stronger, but there's no chance he's as strong as Zion, so Zion appears to be a more natural fit in the paint on defense. No disrespect to Javin, but if I'm an opposing guard, I think I would be a little bit more worried about trying to go at Zion than Javin. Forcing contact with a 280 pound man who can easily jump higher than you doesn't sound pleasant.

I see Marques as the starting center and Zion as the backup, with Javin and Jack filling in at power forward.

[JayZee]

I knew it . . .

I don't think he'll start at center, but I certainly think he will be playing a good amount of center when Bolden is on the bench (maybe 10-15 minutes a game). He's obviously big/strong enough to hold his ground on defense against opposing centers, and his skill set on the other end would cause major problems for big guys trying to defend him out on the perimeter. Not sure why there was so much push back when I first suggested that Zion should play center (back in the Joe Cremo thread, I think).

He's definitely not suited to play small forward, I just think he wouldn't be able to defend a lot of the guys who play the 3 in college. Putting Zion in at center just seems like a great way to exploit his unique abilities.

I seem to remember early in the recruiting process that Zion said that K said that he'd use him like he used LeBron in USA basketball. Kind of like a point center (my words)

[proelitedota]

Ive been watching a lot of the Duke Basketball videos on YouTube from this summer, and the thing that stood out the most to me has been Zion's personality. His personality is as big as his frame. Seems like a wonderful young man to be around. Quickly becoming one of my favorites.

Zion is becoming the face of the program in these videos. I thought it would have been either RJ or Tre but seems like Zion is organically taking up that role.

[kAzE]

Ive been watching a lot of the Duke Basketball videos on YouTube from this summer, and the thing that stood out the most to me has been Zion's personality. His personality is as big as his frame. Seems like a wonderful young man to be around. Quickly becoming one of my favorites.

https://youtu.be/swoH636CmQY

Posting this here, in case anybody hasn't seen it yet. He appears to be very humble and down to earth kid with a wonderful personality, and a great family. There won't be any "Jahlil Okafor Boston brawl" situations with him.

[MartyClark]

https://youtu.be/swoH636CmQY

Posting this here, in case anybody hasn't seen it yet. He appears to be very humble and down to earth kid with a wonderful personality, and a great family. There won't be any "Jahlil Okafor Boston brawl" situations with him.

Yeah, I watched it and agree with your assessment of Zion.

At the same time, I want to support Jahlil. I met his dad and extended family a couple of times at Duke away games. Nothing against Jahlil's family but I think they may have communicated unrealistic expectations to him.

Go Zion, go Jahlil, Go Duke..

[Troublemaker]

https://youtu.be/swoH636CmQY

Posting this here, in case anybody hasn't seen it yet. He appears to be very humble and down to earth kid with a wonderful personality, and a great family. There won't be any "Jahlil Okafor Boston brawl" situations with him.

In his time at Duke, all the media features on Jahlil also showed him to be "humble and down to earth" as well, and coming from a good family. In fact, I still believe those things might be true about Jah (and I only use "might" because, well, how much do we really know about these athletes / celebrities, anyway?)

I think it's really more that when you take a 19-year-old with lots of testosterone, add in nighttime and travel away from home / parental influence, alcohol (and possibly other substances), trashtalk from opposing fans, etc. a mistake can be made. That's not to excuse Okafor from getting into a street brawl, but I don't think it was the result of some sort of personality defect. I'd like to think I might be described by friends as a family man, humble, and a respected professional in my field. And I can tell you without a doubt that when I was 19 and drinking, I absolutely could've been goaded into a brawl.

[weezie]

OT but I am very impressed with Coach K's new haircut. He looks great!

[OldPhiKap]

A Jay Bilas tweet from today:

8558

[HereBeforeCoachK]

A Jay Bilas tweet from today:

8558

Alex O'Connell, call your office.....

[kAzE]

In his time at Duke, all the media features on Jahlil also showed him to be "humble and down to earth" as well, and coming from a good family. In fact, I still believe those things might be true about Jah (and I only use "might" because, well, how much do we really know about these athletes / celebrities, anyway?)

I think it's really more that when you take a 19-year-old with lots of testosterone, add in nighttime and travel away from home / parental influence, alcohol (and possibly other substances), trashtalk from opposing fans, etc. a mistake can be made. That's not to excuse Okafor from getting into a street brawl, but I don't think it was the result of some sort of personality defect. I'd like to think I might be described by friends as a family man, humble, and a respected professional in my field. And I can tell you without a doubt that when I was 19 and drinking, I absolutely could've been goaded into a brawl.

Sorry if my comments came off as disparaging Jahlil or his family. I am definitely a Jahlil fan and hope things work out for him with his new team. I only mention his situation as a cautionary tale. Young people make mistakes, I think we can all agree on that. But Jah came into the league with a sense of entitlement that did him no favors, and he has clearly paid for it.

Hopefully that's all behind him and he's ready to work hard and earn his spot in the league. He was very close to having to play overseas this off season.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Alex O'Connell, call your office....

I know we joke a lot about AOC, but I am concerned about a slight opposing player trying to take a charge against Zion. I mean, good for that kid and his desire (and it will most certainly be called a charge), but concussion protocols are going to be typical for team facing Duke this year.

[jacone21]

I know we joke a lot about AOC, but I am concerned about a slight opposing player trying to take a charge against Zion. I mean, good for that kid and his desire (and it will most certainly be called a charge), but concussion protocols are going to be typical for team facing Duke this year.

Reminds me of when I played catcher in the adult softball league back in the day. One team in the league had a guy who was about 6'5" 270. Huge dude. I always worried when we played them, that there would be a play at the plate and he would literally kill me. My plan was to completely bail if the he and the ball would arrive at the same time or the ball would be late. If the ball would be a little early, and I had a chance to make a play, my plan was this...

8559

[UrinalCake]

I know we joke a lot about AOC, but I am concerned about a slight opposing player trying to take a charge against Zion. I mean, good for that kid and his desire (and it will most certainly be called a charge), but concussion protocols are going to be typical for team facing Duke this year.

I have the opposite opinion (maybe I'm just a less compassionate person than you). I think that early in the season, maybe in one of the Canada games, Zion should find a guy trying to take a charge and completely lay him out. Just barrel into him and send him flying into the uprights. The guy will get the charge call but will probably have to sit out the rest of the game. This will send a message to opponents for the rest of the season, kind of like shiv'ing a guy on your first day in prison, at least if what I see in the movies is correct.

I actually heard an anecdote about Charles Barley doing this to Kevin Johnson. Nobody ever tried to take a charge from Barkley after that happened.

[cato]

I know we joke a lot about AOC, but I am concerned about a slight opposing player trying to take a charge against Zion. I mean, good for that kid and his desire (and it will most certainly be called a charge), but concussion protocols are going to be typical for team facing Duke this year.

I am not. At some point, instinct kicks in. One would have to be as fearless as Grayson Allen to take a charge against Zion.

[kAzE]

I am not. At some point, instinct kicks in. One would have to be as fearless as Grayson Allen to take a charge against Zion.

"Fearless" is probably not the right word here. More like "suicidal."

Grayson was fearless on offense going to the hole, but he wasn't a big charge taker from what I recall.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I have the opposite opinion (maybe I'm just a less compassionate person than you). I think that early in the season, maybe in one of the Canada games, Zion should find a guy trying to take a charge and completely lay him out. Just barrel into him and send him flying into the uprights. The guy will get the charge call but will probably have to sit out the rest of the game. This will send a message to opponents for the rest of the season, kind of like shiv'ing a guy on your first day in prison, at least if what I see in the movies is correct.

I actually heard an anecdote about Charles Barley doing this to Kevin Johnson. Nobody ever tried to take a charge from Barkley after that happened.

Could go both ways. I remember in Coach K's early tenure with Team USA, Battier took a charge from Yao Ming. That's 311 pounds of force coming at you. Smart for Team USA; not smart for Battier's health.

There will be some "no fear" style players who are going to relish the opportunity to take a charge from Zion.

[flyingdutchdevil]

"Fearless" is probably not the right word here. More like "suicidal."

Grayson was fearless on offense going to the hole, but he wasn't a big charge taker from what I recall.

I'm more curious at to what happens if/when Zion takes a charge. Does he fall down? Does the opposing player bounce right off him?

We know what happens when Zion has the ball running full force and a player stands in his way; we have no idea about the reverse.

[kAzE]

I'm more curious at to what happens if/when Zion takes a charge. Does he fall down? Does the opposing player bounce right off him?

We know what happens when Zion has the ball running full force and a player stands in his way; we have no idea about the reverse.

I think Zion would have a pretty time getting that call from the officials. He would have to really sell it. For that reason, I don't see Zion as a charge taking type of guy, I think he would go for the shot contest in most situations. Hopefully he can be a reasonable approximation of Wendell Carter.

Wendell IMO is the gold standard of freshman rim protection. He was so good at going straight up with both arms vertical and not fouling.

[BD80]

...

There will be some "no fear" style players who are going to relish the opportunity to take a charge from Zion.

Clean up in aisle 2.

There's a smear of relish on the floor ...

[devildeac]

I had a chance to sit down with Zion this week. He's a personable kid who is very comfortable in his own skin. Pretty amazing for an 18-year-old. The video with this story provides some insight into his personality. Also, more information from this interview will appear in future stories. I'll share when they are published.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article216334740.html

In the News and Observer today:

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article216334740.html

Thanks for the heads up a couple days ago, Steve.

[hallcity]

8561

[HereBeforeCoachK]

There will be some "no fear" style players who are going to relish the opportunity to take a charge from Zion.

once, period.

[gep]

I may have the facts mis-remembered... I think Jason Williams said that when he was a rookie in the league, he was in the lane and Shaq headed down the lane in full speed. Jason said he knew better and got out of the way. No way was he going to try and take a charge:cool:

[OldPhiKap]

once, period.

8563

[MChambers]

I may have the facts mis-remembered... I think Jason Williams said that when he was a rookie in the league, he was in the lane and Shaq headed down the lane in full speed. Jason said he knew better and got out of the way. No way was he going to try and take a charge:cool:

I remember that story, but I thought it was Battier.

[subzero02]

8561

There is already a sports documentary on Netflix titled "Zion Body of Strength"... I predict that there will soon be a sequel.

[Furniture]

8561

Love this. Especially since I engineer these Trucks....

[budwom]

I wish they'd just play a game so all the Zion hoo-ha can be gently put to rest.

[sagegrouse]

I wish they'd just play a game so all the Zion hoo-ha can be gently put to rest.

Or violently confirmed?

[OldPhiKap]

Because it bears rewatching:

https://youtu.be/MYnpO03crr8

My favorite part is not the slams, it’s when he breaks a guy’s ankles on a cross-over

[CajunDevil]

The pleasure, bordering on child-like giddiness, Coach K displayed in the presser when discussing Zion - his ability to "hang in the air," his lateral quickness, his abilities as a "basketball player," and his "mass," has me giddy. He is so much more than just a dunker... can't wait for people to see that. Zion will be a game-changer - if nothing else, due to making a spectacular dunk that changes a game's momentum. K hasn't had this type of otherworldly athlete... not many coaches have.

[BD80]

Or violently confirmed?

A violent gerbil?

[Billy Dat]

I wish they'd just play a game so all the Zion hoo-ha can be gently put to rest.


The pleasure, bordering on child-like giddiness, Coach K displayed in the presser when discussing Zion - his ability to "hang in the air," his lateral quickness, his abilities as a "basketball player," and his "mass," has me giddy. He is so much more than just a dunker... can't wait for people to see that. Zion will be a game-changer - if nothing else, due to making a spectacular dunk that changes a game's momentum. K hasn't had this type of otherworldly athlete... not many coaches have.

I will admit that the Zion signing tickled me from a "it's good to be the king" perspective, but I was less excited about his potential on-court role and fit. Like many critics, I had him pegged as an anachronism - too small and powerfully built for the long and lean modern game.

K's press conference really changed my perception. Aside from the stuff CajunDevil wrote about above, K also talked about his excellence as a passer and his defensive instincts. When K doesn't feel like expanding on a topic at these pressers, he quite adept at moving on...but he lingered on Zion for quite a long time. I may be over-reacting, but my whole attitude about the kid and his role on the team has shifted based on this presser. I hope these Canada games help substantiate my new expectations...so yeah, budwom, Wednesday night can't come soon enough.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Love this. Especially since I engineer these Trucks...

You should name the next model 'Zion'

[Troublemaker]

I will admit that the Zion signing tickled me from a "it's good to be the king" perspective, but I was less excited about his potential on-court role and fit. Like many critics, I had him pegged as an anachronism - too small and powerfully built for the long and lean modern game.

K's press conference really changed my perception. Aside from the stuff CajunDevil wrote about above, K also talked about his excellence as a passer and his defensive instincts. When K doesn't feel like expanding on a topic at these pressers, he quite adept at moving on...but he lingered on Zion for quite a long time. I may be over-reacting, but my whole attitude about the kid and his role on the team has shifted based on this presser. I hope these Canada games help substantiate my new expectations...so yeah, budwom, Wednesday night can't come soon enough.

Re: his fit for the modern game, I think the NBA might end up loving him. A ~270-lb man with guard skills is very intriguing. If he shows potential to be a good shooter (the question for most NBA prospects these days, it seems), I could certainly see him getting picked #1 overall in the end.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Re: his fit for the modern game, I think the NBA might end up loving him. A ~270-lb man with guard skills is very intriguing. If he shows potential to be a good shooter (the question for most NBA prospects these days, it seems), I could certainly see him getting picked #1 overall in the end.

I'd take that bet any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I can't see him #1. Top 5? Arguably. But even good shooting means Zion is still a 'tweener', and not the good type. Also, a 270 big man with hoops like that has 'injury risk' slapped all over him.

[NSDukeFan]

I will admit that the Zion signing tickled me from a "it's good to be the king" perspective, but I was less excited about his potential on-court role and fit. Like many critics, I had him pegged as an anachronism - too small and powerfully built for the long and lean modern game.

K's press conference really changed my perception. Aside from the stuff CajunDevil wrote about above, K also talked about his excellence as a passer and his defensive instincts. When K doesn't feel like expanding on a topic at these pressers, he quite adept at moving on...but he lingered on Zion for quite a long time. I may be over-reacting, but my whole attitude about the kid and his role on the team has shifted based on this presser. I hope these Canada games help substantiate my new expectations...so yeah, budwom, Wednesday night can't come soon enough.
I’m glad you’re more optimistic now, which probably makes me somewhat as well. Your concerns about Zion not fitting well in the modern game sound more like an NBA concern vs. a Duke concern though as I don’t think the college game is there yet. There’s still plenty of room in college for Byron Houston, Corliss Williamson types even if Zion isn’t that mobile.

[kAzE]

I'd take that bet any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I can't see him #1. Top 5? Arguably. But even good shooting means Zion is still a 'tweener', and not the good type. Also, a 270 big man with hoops like that has 'injury risk' slapped all over him.

He's certainly been regularly nicked up throughout his high school career, and even in the McDonald's AA game. Watching him play this year is going to be almost like a new version of Grayson Allen, where you're just hoping he makes it through each possession without killing himself (although in Zion's case, he's just as likely to kill someone else).

I would love to see him slim down to maybe 260, but that's probably a pipe dream. Maybe once he starts earning an NBA paycheck and can afford his own personal chef . . .

For the long term, I can't see his knees holding up if he continues to play at 280+ pounds with his style of play.

[NSDukeFan]

He's certainly been regularly nicked up throughout his high school career, and even in the McDonald's AA game. Watching him play this year is going to be almost like a new version of Grayson Allen, where you're just hoping he makes it through each possession without killing himself (although in Zion's case, he's just as likely to kill someone else).

I would love to see him slim down to maybe 260, but that's probably a pipe dream. Maybe once he starts earning an NBA paycheck and can afford his own personal chef . . .

I expect Zion to be more of the injurer instead of the injuree.

[UrinalCake]

Curious why fans don’t see a 270 pound defensive lineman and immediate get worried about his knees holding up, despite the enormous stresses that football players endure. Zion looks to have that kind of frame.

[kAzE]

Curious why fans don’t see a 270 pound defensive lineman and immediate get worried about his knees holding up, despite the enormous stresses that football players endure. Zion looks to have that kind of frame.

I think it's because no football player holds up. It's a mathematical certainty that your body will break down in the NFL, and that is built into the CBA via non-guaranteed contracts. The average NFL player's career is less than 3 years. When you draft a player in the NBA draft in the top 5, you're hoping that player can be a star for your franchise for a decade or more.

But also, NFL linemen do a lot less jumping on a regular basis, which puts a lot of repeated impact on the knees. True, they are still putting tons of stress on their knees from pushing off and such, but it's not quite the same as jumping thousands of times over the course of an NBA season. Linemen also don't do a ton of cutting and quick twitch change of direction type of movement, which results in many non-contact ligament tears.

The biggest fear I have for Zion is that he has a similar build to Jabari Parker, but he's even heavier. Obviously, Jabari's knees have not fared well in the NBA thus far.

There's no doubt in my mind that Zion is a top 5 talent in this draft, but even the perceived injury risk (even if it's not real) is scary.

You guys are stressing me out with all the possible jinx posts. KNOCK ON WOOD.

[Troublemaker]

I'd take that bet any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I can't see him #1. Top 5? Arguably. But even good shooting means Zion is still a 'tweener', and not the good type. Also, a 270 big man with hoops like that has 'injury risk' slapped all over him.

Well it's generally considered a weak draft, so I don't see why arguably the biggest physical freak in the draft couldn't go #1. Is he the favorite against the field or even just the favorite? No, but it's possible.

And with how positionally fluid the NBA has become, I don't think being a tweener (if that's what he is) hurts Zion. On most NBA teams, it seems to me he'd play the 4 regularly and then the 5 in smallball lineups.

[budwom]

I'm personally looking forward to the actual games where we'll see how Physical Freak (undeniable) translates into college/pro hoopster. Crystal Ball currently fuzzy on this.

[Indoor66]

I just want to see him play at Duke. The rest will take care of itself.

[devildeac]

Given the fact that these measurements are >1 month old and the favorable exchange rate for USD vs CD, Zion may return from the trip at 7'1" or taller, well over 300 pounds and a vertical >50". :rolleyes:

[NSDukeFan]

Given the fact that these measurements are >1 month old and the favorable exchange rate for USD vs CD, Zion may return from the trip at 7'1" or taller, well over 300 pounds and a vertical >50". :rolleyes:

I believe you mean 2.15 meters tall, weighing over 140 kilograms. 😀 With the tariffs on steel now, Zion might not make it back across the border. I hope the coaches have taken this into account.

[devildeac]

I believe you mean 2.15 meters tall, weighing over 140 kilograms. 😀 With the tariffs on steel now, Zion might not make it back across the border. I hope the coaches have taken this into account.

You are indeed correct. I should have gone postal with my metrics. :o;)

[Tom B.]

Oh my.

https://www.facebook.com/DukeMBB/videos/2102906593361509/