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WVDUKEFAN
06-22-2018, 07:29 AM
I thought this was pretty interesting.

https://247sports.com/college/duke/ContentGallery/Duke-Basketball-Top-Ten-Freshman-Breakdown-119231411//#119231411_1

HereBeforeCoachK
06-22-2018, 08:17 AM
I thought this was pretty interesting.

https://247sports.com/college/duke/ContentGallery/Duke-Basketball-Top-Ten-Freshman-Breakdown-119231411//#119231411_1

That was interesting....I like that Gminski and Banks were both in the top ten. Second time today they've emerged in a thread. That 78 team, G-man as a soph and Banks as a frosh - that was a team that should've won the natty. Only a Goose Givens one off performance kept that from happening.

jaytoc
06-22-2018, 12:30 PM
A slight quibble with you, HBCK.

We can probably all agree that the '86 team should have won the championship. Not only was it clearly (in my eyes) the best team in the country, but it took a one-off performance by Never Nervous to beat that team in a very close game.

The '78 team came from near out of nowhere, was playing great basketball by year-end and the ACC and NCAA tourneys. Still, I'd be hard pressed to argue it was one of the very best teams that season. And, more to your point, Goose Givens may have exploited the ineffective zone and possibly had his greatest game, but he was no slouch. He WAS named to a number of All-American teams that season.

The '78 Kentucky loss wasn't that close. Better team prevailed, and probably would have, irrespective of Givens' phenomenal performance.

CDu
06-22-2018, 01:09 PM
A slight quibble with you, HBCK.

We can probably all agree that the '86 team should have won the championship. Not only was it clearly (in my eyes) the best team in the country, but it took a one-off performance by Never Nervous to beat that team in a very close game.

Minor quibble, but it wasn't really a "one-off performance" by Ellison. He did have a very good game: 25 and 11 with 2 blocks. But it wasn't a one-time thing. In the other games of that tourney, he was also really good, averaging 13.6 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 2 blocks. Further, in the 1988 tourney, he averaged 23.3, 11, and 2.7. And he had a 21, 15, 8 assists, and 3 blocks tourney game in 1989.

I think perhaps a more appropriate term would be that the 86 title game was his coming out party. But he was a really really good college player, and that freshman performance wasn't outlandish at all by his standards. I don't think it's quite appropriate to include in the list of one-hit wonders like Derrick Williams and Bootsie Thornton.

jimsumner
06-22-2018, 03:47 PM
Minor quibble, but it wasn't really a "one-off performance" by Ellison. He did have a very good game: 25 and 11 with 2 blocks. But it wasn't a one-time thing. In the other games of that tourney, he was also really good, averaging 13.6 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 2 blocks. Further, in the 1988 tourney, he averaged 23.3, 11, and 2.7. And he had a 21, 15, 8 assists, and 3 blocks tourney game in 1989.

I think perhaps a more appropriate term would be that the 86 title game was his coming out party. But he was a really really good college player, and that freshman performance wasn't outlandish at all by his standards. I don't think it's quite appropriate to include in the list of one-hit wonders like Derrick Williams and Bootsie Thornton.

Derrick Williams averaged over 19 ppg in 2011 and was second-team AP All-America and Pac-10 player of the year. He had a better 2011 season than Kyle Singler.

Hardly a one-hit wonder.

Thornton was more of an outlier. But he did average around 15 ppg in 1999. Hardly a slouch.

Let me tell you about Larry Worsley. Now, he was Bootsy Thornton, before Bootsy Thornton even existed.

1965. You had to win the ACC Tournament to get the ACC's only bid to the NCAA Tournament

Vic Bubas was in the midst of his best run, first-place in the ACC regular season in 1963, 1964, 1965 and 1966.

Duke won the ACCT in 1963, 1964 and 1966, advancing to the Final Four all three of those years.

The 1965 team was just as good, Marin, Verga, Vacendak, Hack Tison. In fact, this is still the highest-scoring team in Duke history. Over 92 ppg.

Duke met NC State in the tournament finals. Duke had defeated State twice in the regular season.

This was the next-to-last time the ACCT was held at Reynolds. And recently retired State coach, Everett Case, was dying of cancer.

Bubas' mentor.

Lots of sidebars.

Worsley was a 6-5 junior forward, averaging about 5 ppg for the season.

But he found holes in Duke's zone, mostly in the corner. 14 for 19 from the field, 30 points, State upsets Duke 91-85. Duke ends season at 20-5.

State goes to NCAAs and reverts to the mean. Bill Bradley and Princeton go to the Final Four. With their NCAAT experience, I'm reasonably confident, Duke would have cruised to the FF out of that regional.

Had Larry Worsley not chosen that night to have the game of his life.

CDu
06-22-2018, 03:59 PM
Derrick Williams averaged over 19 ppg in 2011 and was second-team AP All-America and Pac-10 player of the year. He had a better 2011 season than Kyle Singler.

Hardly a one-hit wonder.

Williams shot 5-6 from 3 and put up 32 and 13. That was a pretty monstrous game, even for a very good player. It was well above anything he did against top-tier competition (he had a very good game against Kansas early in the year, but nothing like what he did to us). He had similar games against the mediocrity of the Pac-10, but nothing comparable in big games. Compared to Ellison, there's really no comparison. Ellison matched his performance against us in several other tourney games against legitimate teams.

I agree that there are even better examples than Williams. But Williams' game was way more of an outlier than Ellison's game.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-22-2018, 04:20 PM
Williams shot 5-6 from 3 and put up 32 and 13. That was a pretty monstrous game, even for a very good player. It was well above anything he did against top-tier competition .......


And in that 5 for 6 from 3 was that fantasy island hail Mary at the first half buzzer that completely changed the complexion of the game.

jimsumner
06-22-2018, 04:45 PM
Williams shot 5-6 from 3 and put up 32 and 13. That was a pretty monstrous game, even for a very good player. It was well above anything he did against top-tier competition (he had a very good game against Kansas early in the year, but nothing like what he did to us). He had similar games against the mediocrity of the Pac-10, but nothing comparable in big games. Compared to Ellison, there's really no comparison. Ellison matched his performance against us in several other tourney games against legitimate teams.

I agree that there are even better examples than Williams. But Williams' game was way more of an outlier than Ellison's game.

No question that Williams had the best game of his career at the worst possible time for Duke.

But he was second-team AP All-America and PAC-10 Player of the Year. That year, he averaged 19.5 ppg. 8.3 rpg, shot 59.5 from the field, 56.8 (!!) on 3s, 74.6 from the line.

The Duke game may have been his only number 1 hit but he had to have had a lot of top-10s to put up numbers like that.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-22-2018, 05:48 PM
No question that Williams had the best game of his career at the worst possible time for Duke.

But he was second-team AP All-America and PAC-10 Player of the Year. That year, he averaged 19.5 ppg. 8.3 rpg, shot 59.5 from the field, 56.8 (!!) on 3s, 74.6 from the line.

The Duke game may have been his only number 1 hit but he had to have had a lot of top-10s to put up numbers like that.

All that is true. What irritates me is the next game, he and all of his teammates - after all playing lights out v Duke - came out spent and got waxed. Beating Duke made their season. (as memory serves....)

jimsumner
06-22-2018, 06:03 PM
All that is true. What irritates me is the next game, he and all of his teammates - after all playing lights out v Duke - came out spent and got waxed. Beating Duke made their season. (as memory serves...)

Eventual champions Connecticut beat Arizona 65-63 in the Elite Eight. Williams and Kemba Walker led everyone with 20 points.