Lebron GOAT Thread

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Since it seems to be taking over many threads, I will try and consolidate here.

What is your take on James?

[Billy Dat]

For those interested, Zach Lowe and Howard Beck have a good discussion on this topic a few days ago.
http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play/_/id/12933623?id=23803672&s=espn

I still put Jordan #1 but not by much. One point Beck makes on the pod is that a primary difference between the 2 is the 2011 Finals when Lebron's favored Heat lost and he was awful. Jordan never had a no show like that.

Lebron is still building his resume, but, for now, I've still got MJ.

[WillJ]

Are we allowed to consider the facts that a) Jordan's a jerk and Lebron is not and b) Jordan went to UNC. I could see how people's take on point a could vary, but point b is idispositive.

[brevity]

You missed an option: adults on the Internet are a bunch of Ricky Bobbys who desperately need a violent beating until they can understand that not everything is binary.

8418

Even the guy who originally said that came around.

Ricky Bobby: Wait, Dad. Don't you remember the time you told me "If you ain't first, you're last"?

Reese Bobby: Huh? What are you talking about, Son?

Ricky Bobby: That day at school.

Reese Bobby: Oh hell, Son, I was high that day. That doesn't make any sense at all, you can be second, third, fourth... hell you can even be fifth.

Ricky Bobby: What? I've lived my whole life by that!

[Newton_14]

I'm 52 yrs old for reference... David Thompson is still the greatest College Player I have ever seen, and Michael Jordan is still the greatest NBA Player I have ever seen. I will call you when something changes MD... LOL:D

[camion]

I don't think these are mutually exclusive choices. :confused:

I'll take 1, 2 and 4.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I feel like LBJ is the most talented and physical player in basketball history. I don't really care much about the outcome of this poll, but since LBJ talk seems to be the NBA version of "how many players will be in Ks rotation," or "debate the one and done rule," I thought I might institute a mercy thread to consolidate this discussion.

I imagine it will work about as well as the other consolidation threads, ie not at all.

[CDu]

For those interested, Zach Lowe and Howard Beck have a good discussion on this topic a few days ago.
http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play/_/id/12933623?id=23803672&s=espn

I still put Jordan #1 but not by much. One point Beck makes on the pod is that a primary difference between the 2 is the 2011 Finals when Lebron's favored Heat lost and he was awful. Jordan never had a no show like that.

Lebron is still building his resume, but, for now, I've still got MJ.

The counter is that Jordan’s teams never upset the favorite in his career. Whenever they were expected to lose, they lost. Jordan didn’t lose in the Finals when his team was as good or better than his opponents. But he never made his teammates better to overcome a better opponent.

LeBron’s teams did occasionally lose to lesser teams. But he also took lesser teams to upsets to reach the Finals twice, and even won a title with a lesser team.

That is part of the problem with this discussion. Folks ignore the seasons in which Jordan’s teams didn’t do well enough when they could have (1990, 1995), and penalize LeBron for some of the teams that made the Finals but either shouldn’t have (his first Finals and arguably this year) or didn’t have a chance in the Finals (his first, 2015, 2017, 2018).

[Neals384]

He may end up as the GOAT, but I think his bench demeanor after JRs screwup has to count against him. Sure JR is an idiot. But there was still OT, the game was not over. You gotta support your teammate, especially after a massive screwup.

LBJ has the whole offseason to rejoice in the hope that JR will never again be his teammate.

[kshepinthehouse]

He may end up as the GOAT, but I think his bench demeanor after JRs screwup has to count against him. Sure JR is an idiot. But there was still OT, the game was not over. You gotta support your teammate, especially after a massive screwup.

LBJ has the whole offseason to rejoice in the hope that JR will never again be his teammate.

He quit at the end of overtime and quit during game 4. Then he complains about a “broken” hand. I agree with a previous poster who said Jordan probably wins based on defense and intangibles. It may have slipped my memory but I just can’t recall a time where it felt like Jordan quit. His competitive desire is unparalleled and something that sets him apart over Lebron. For the record, I’m not a fan of either.

[cakerace]

There's nothing wrong with LeBron James that four years at Duke wouldn't have cured...

[ice-9]

Are Finals appearances a relevant metric in discussion of Greatest Of All Time?

For Hall of Fame, sure, but GOAT?

Does anyone really believe that if the Cavs were in the West, they would have made all these Finals?

When Conferences are so unbalanced, Finals is a relatively arbitrary metric.

LeBron may be the most gifted basketball player of all time, but until he wins at least two or three more NBA championships, he's not the GOAT.

Similarly, our 99 team may be the most talented or the most dominant, but not winning the tournament precludes it from any GOAT Duke team discussion.

[kshepinthehouse]

Are Finals appearances a relevant metric in discussion of Greatest Of All Time?

For Hall of Fame, sure, but GOAT?

Does anyone really believe that if the Cavs were in the West, they would have made all these Finals?

When Conferences are so unbalanced, Finals is a relatively arbitrary metric.

LeBron may be the most gifted basketball player of all time, but until he wins at least two or three more NBA championships, he's not the GOAT.

Similarly, our 99 team may be the most talented or the most dominant, but not winning the tournament precludes it from any GOAT Duke team discussion.

The NBA has mulled the idea of ranking teams 1/16 in the playoffs and doing away with the East vs West thing. Would have made for some amazing finals in the last few years instead of the butt kicking the East (Cavs) keep taking.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Are Finals appearances a relevant metric in discussion of Greatest Of All Time?

For Hall of Fame, sure, but GOAT?

Does anyone really believe that if the Cavs were in the West, they would have made all these Finals?

When Conferences are so unbalanced, Finals is a relatively arbitrary metric.

LeBron may be the most gifted basketball player of all time, but until he wins at least two or three more NBA championships, he's not the GOAT.

Similarly, our 99 team may be the most talented or the most dominant, but not winning the tournament precludes it from any GOAT Duke team discussion.

You make some good points, but I think you have a bit of a mis-application of analogy. You are right, the 99 team cannot be Duke's GOAT because they did not, as a team, achieve greatness. But to analogize that to an individual player - yet measure by team accomplishments - simply does not work. It's not totally invalid, but it is not a one to one analogy.

To take it a step further, when the teams that LeBron were on lost LeBron, those teams were terrible. When MJ left Chicago, they were still PDG team.

[duke4ever19]

If by "greatest" you mean, "Who, at some point, played basketball at a level unequalled by any other player in league history?" then I'd go with LeBron. His years in Miami were incredible personal displays of dominance in virtually ever phase of the game.

If by "greatest" you mean, "Who is the best synthesis of the following: Skill, championships, MVP's, Defensive/Offensive awards, career records, a unique/iconic style of play etc. then the answer IMO is rather obvious . . it's Kareem.

Like I said before, in Kareem's case, people have this odd tendency to penalize him for playing so long. I actually find this to be one of Kareem's major selling points in the GOAT debates. He took care of his body and was willing to adapt from being THE dominant individual force on his team (and arguably in the league) and become a key player on a team that won championships.

Virtually every piece of hardware Jordan earned, Kareem has equalled him and even surpassed him in compiling. Based strictly on career accomplishments, Kareem bests Jordan.

LeBron is the only player close to threatening Kareem's points-in-a-career record. That's rather remarkable.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

If by "greatest" you mean, "Who, at some point, played basketball at a level unequalled by any other player in league history?" then I'd go with LeBron. His years in Miami were incredible personal displays of dominance in virtually ever phase of the game.

If by "greatest" you mean, "Who is the best synthesis of the following: Skill, championships, MVP's, Defensive/Offensive awards, career records, a unique/iconic style of play etc. then the answer IMO is rather obvious . . it's Kareem.

Like I said before, in Kareem's case, people have this odd tendency to penalize him for playing so long. I actually find this to be one of Kareem's major selling points in the GOAT debates. He took care of his body and was willing to adapt from being THE dominant individual force on his team (and arguably in the league) and become a key player on a team that won championships.

Virtually every piece of hardware Jordan earned, Kareem has equalled him and even surpassed him in compiling. Based strictly on career accomplishments, Kareem bests Jordan.

LeBron is the only player close to threatening Kareem's points-in-a-career record. That's rather remarkable.


Interesting analysis, and I find nothing to disagree with. I'd simply add Wilt to those who were "penalized" for something that is a great attribute.Both Wilt and Kareem are penalized for their height, and Wilt for his overall athletic prowess. It's as if there's a "not fair" sub conscious bias. I had not thought about Kareem being penalized for his longevity, but you may have a point there.

[luburch]

He may end up as the GOAT, but I think his bench demeanor after JRs screwup has to count against him. Sure JR is an idiot. But there was still OT, the game was not over. You gotta support your teammate, especially after a massive screwup.

LBJ has the whole offseason to rejoice in the hope that JR will never again be his teammate.

Have you heard Steve Kerr's comments on this? He completely disagrees with you. I side with Kerr.

[Neals384]

Have you heard Steve Kerr's comments on this? He completely disagrees with you. I side with Kerr.

Have not heard Kerr’s comments. Care to enlighten us?

[subzero02]

I feel like LBJ is the most talented and physical player in basketball history. I don't really care much about the outcome of this poll, but since LBJ talk seems to be the NBA version of "how many players will be in Ks rotation," or "debate the one and done rule," I thought I might institute a mercy thread to consolidate this discussion.

I imagine it will work about as well as the other consolidation threads, ie not at all.

LeBron is more physical than Shaq was? I've got to vehemently disagree. If you are saying that he's the most physically talented player in NBA history, I'd say that was true until the Greek Freak entered the league.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

LeBron is more physical than Shaq was? I've got to vehemently disagree. If you are saying that he's the most physically talented player in NBA history, I'd say that was true until the Greek Freak entered the league.

He said "talented and physical" which is a little different from both "most physical" and "most physically talented."

[JNort]

He quit at the end of overtime and quit during game 4. Then he complains about a “broken” hand. I agree with a previous poster who said Jordan probably wins based on defense and intangibles. It may have slipped my memory but I just can’t recall a time where it felt like Jordan quit. His competitive desire is unparalleled and something that sets him apart over Lebron. For the record, I’m not a fan of either.

Many forget that LeBron was defensive force for basically every year in his first stint with Cleveland and throughout the Miami tenure. Now he only plays defense in the playoffs where he is usually the best defender out there.

[luburch]

Have not heard Kerr’s comments. Care to enlighten us?

Here's the episode of the Lowe Post where Zach asks him about that moment. (http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=23765169) Unfortunately, I can't tell you the exact timestamp to tune in to.

In summary, he states that every single player would have reacted in the same manner. Attempting to hold it against LeBron is foolish.

[kshepinthehouse]

Many forget that LeBron was defensive force for basically every year in his first stint with Cleveland and throughout the Miami tenure. Now he only plays defense in the playoffs where he is usually the best defender out there.

He didn’t defend Durant or Curry. If he’s the best defender out there he should have shut down one of those guys. Instead he matched up with Draymond Green much of the time and played rover. I think Jordan would have taken on the personal challenge of trying to shut down one of the superstars.

[JNort]

He didn’t defend Durant or Curry. If he’s the best defender out there he should have shut down one of those guys. Instead he matched up with Draymond Green much of the time and played rover. I think Jordan would have taken on the personal challenge of trying to shut down one of the superstars.
Yes in the past few years he plays more of a safety type of role to disrupt passing lanes and drives. In a game where they are severely overmatched you can't expect him to go all out and use all his energy trying to stop Durant when he is also the only one who can do anything on offense. Jordan had Pippen and Rodman also playing defense with him. Put LeBron with Kawhi Leonard and Draymond and I think he looks better on defense also.

[JNort]

He didn’t defend Durant or Curry. If he’s the best defender out there he should have shut down one of those guys. Instead he matched up with Draymond Green much of the time and played rover. I think Jordan would have taken on the personal challenge of trying to shut down one of the superstars.

I also wanna point out that you aren't gonna stop those guys. This is why some people think of the NBA and say "o they don't play defense" which is absurd. It's just when you look at the top 10 or so best offensive players in the league, they are so good at what they do you don't have a large enough impact to throw them off. It's why teams emphasize slowing or stopping the rest of the team.

[nmduke2001]

Barring injury, LeBron has a legitimate shot of becoming the NBA’s all-time leading scorer and is highly likely to be top five all-time in assists. That’s unparalleled. I think LeBron is already the best ever and I don’t think it’s particularly close.

[JNort]

Barring injury, LeBron has a legitimate shot of becoming the NBA’s all-time leading scorer and is highly likely to be top five all-time in assists. That’s unparalleled. I think LeBron is already the best ever and I don’t think it’s particularly close.

I think a lot of the debate comes just from a preference on what we each like to see or value on the court. Jordan's grace vs LeBrons power. Jordan's scoring and intensity vs LeBrons overall game and IQ.

[subzero02]

I think a lot of the debate comes just from a preference on what we each like to see or value on the court. Jordan's grace vs LeBrons power. Jordan's scoring and intensity vs LeBrons overall game and IQ.

Jordan's championships vs. Lebronze's championship appearances

[JNort]

Jordan's championships vs. Lebronze's championship appearances

No not really, that's only ever brought up because those who defend Jordan can usually only argue 2 things and neither matter in the discussion of GOAT all that much by themselves.

[subzero02]

No not really, that's only ever brought up because those who defend Jordan can usually only argue 2 things and neither matter in the discussion of GOAT all that much by themselves.

Really? Because I've heard many LeBron defenders tout his 8 consecutive finals appearances and 9 finals overall as his crowning accomplishment.

[subzero02]

He said "talented and physical" which is a little different from both "most physical" and "most physically talented."

Well, I'd prefer the poster who actually made the comment to clarify his or her thought process.

But you are saying that the statement "most physical and talented" is different than "most talented and physical" because to me, it sounds like the modifier "most" applies to both adjectives in both statements. If the original poster's intent was to state that LeBron is the most talented player with a physical game, then I might agree with that statement although ths Greek Freak could lay a claim to that honor as well.

[Steven43]

Barring injury, LeBron has a legitimate shot of becoming the NBA’s all-time leading scorer and is highly likely to be top five all-time in assists. That’s unparalleled. I think LeBron is already the best ever and I don’t think it’s particularly close.

Why does this subject—Greatest of All-Time—even matter? It doesn’t mean anything. It’s just an ego trip. I think it is an unprovable and ultimately pointless endeavor. And I’m as guilty as anyone else of entertainhg this subject in the past. Hopefully I can refrain from doing so going forward. But I’ll probably falter in a moment of weakness—likely goaded by Mtn.Devil.

[subzero02]

Why does this subject—Greatest of All-Time even matter? It doesn’t mean anything. It’s just an ego trip. I think it is an unprovable and ultimately pointless endeavor.

I tweeted LeBron the same thing...

[ice-9]

You make some good points, but I think you have a bit of a mis-application of analogy. You are right, the 99 team cannot be Duke's GOAT because they did not, as a team, achieve greatness. But to analogize that to an individual player - yet measure by team accomplishments - simply does not work. It's not totally invalid, but it is not a one to one analogy.

To take it a step further, when the teams that LeBron were on lost LeBron, those teams were terrible. When MJ left Chicago, they were still PDG team.

It seems like you're describing MVP. Or MVPOAT? Most Valuable Player of All Time?

Sure, some of those early Cavs teams may have been horrible without LeBron. But how good were they with LeBron? Not good enough to win championships. Probably not even good enough to make the Western finals. So...probably not something to file under GOAT-worthy.

How about this as a thought experiment. What if Westbrook continues his torrid pace, and retires as tops all-time in points, rebounds and assists? But never wins a championship? Would that be GOAT worthy?

Basketball at the end of the day is a team sport. GOAT is about the absolute pinnacle of the sport, so IMO it's as much team performance as individual. Reasonable minds may differ.

From that perspective, I don't believe LeBron has accomplished enough yet. He's certainly tried -- he made moves to create super teams at Miami and the Cavs so he's had opportunities, but those teams haven't delivered enough to earn him GOAT in my eyes.

He still has a few years to do it though, so let's see.

[Jeffrey]

I'm 52 yrs old for reference... David Thompson is still the greatest College Player I have ever seen, and Michael Jordan is still the greatest NBA Player I have ever seen. I will call you when something changes MD... LOL:D

Agree on MJ. However, I'll take Bill Walton over David Thompson in college. IMO, Thompson was the best ACC player.

Given your age, you would have been very young when Walton and Thompson played college hoops. Your love for hoops must have started very early in your life.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It seems like you're describing MVP. Or MVPOAT? Most Valuable Player of All Time?

Sure, some of those early Cavs teams may have been horrible without LeBron. But how good were they with LeBron? Not good enough to win championships. Probably not even good enough to make the Western finals. So...probably not something to file under GOAT-worthy.

How about this as a thought experiment. What if Westbrook continues his torrid pace, and retires as tops all-time in points, rebounds and assists? But never wins a championship? Would that be GOAT worthy?

Basketball at the end of the day is a team sport. GOAT is about the absolute pinnacle of the sport, so IMO it's as much team performance as individual. Reasonable minds may differ.

From that perspective, I don't believe LeBron has accomplished enough yet. He's certainly tried -- he made moves to create super teams at Miami and the Cavs so he's had opportunities, but those teams haven't delivered enough to earn him GOAT in my eyes.

He still has a few years to do it though, so let's see.

The main thing I was doing was pointing out that the analogy to Duke 99 and LeBron is not valid...and it's not. The 6-0 versus the 3-6 comparison that depends on the team analogy is thus not valid. That's not a logical reason to keep LeBron out of GOAT status.

That said, I am not decided on GOAT for LeBron, so I was not making the case for him per se. I agree, reasonable minds may differ.

However, the Westbrook hypothetical is not relevant because no one, certainly not myself, have said that team championships are not at all a factor. When I say that, hit me up with Westbrook and a thousand others.

My main pursuit here is truth...I don't have a dog in the fight. What is true, beyond a doubt in my opinion, is that basing the MJ over LeBron conversation on championships alone is simply flawed analysis. It may be that MJ is the best, regardless, but the 6-0 doesn't in and of itself prove it.

Now you may not be basing it on that alone, but any perusal of ESPN message boards and the like will reveal a ton of keyboard cowboys saying 6-0 and 3-6 ends the argument, period. There's some on DBR saying that as well.

[phaedrus]

How about this as a thought experiment. What if Westbrook continues his torrid pace, and retires as tops all-time in points, rebounds and assists? But never wins a championship? Would that be GOAT worthy?


Well, if Westbrook continues his torrid pace (assume 32.9 ppg, 10 rpg, and 10 apg, his 2016-17 stats), he will surpass Kareem's 38,387 points in 9 seasons, at age 38; Stockton's 15,806 assists in 12 seasons, at age 41; and Wilt's 23,924 rebounds in 24 seasons, at age 53.

If he can do that, I'll vote for him as GOAT.

[NSDukeFan]

If he played for a few more years after catching Wilt for career rebounds, he could catch Kareem and Robert Parish for oldest players to play in the NBA.

[ice-9]

Well, if Westbrook continues his torrid pace (assume 32.9 ppg, 10 rpg, and 10 apg, his 2016-17 stats), he will surpass Kareem's 38,387 points in 9 seasons, at age 38; Stockton's 15,806 assists in 12 seasons, at age 41; and Wilt's 23,924 rebounds in 24 seasons, at age 53.

If he can do that, I'll vote for him as GOAT.

Haha thanks for doing the math. I wanted to look it up but was posting while outside on my phone.

[ice-9]

Now you may not be basing it on that alone, but any perusal of ESPN message boards and the like will reveal a ton of keyboard cowboys saying 6-0 and 3-6 ends the argument, period. There's some on DBR saying that as well.

I hear what you’re saying. For myself, I don’t consider the finals record at all - it’s an arbitrary metric highly sensitive to conference balance.

RE Jordan vs LeBron - both great players, so the individual performance is truly elite. But one has 6 championships and the other has 3.

[curtis325]

I don't know who is the GOAT and don't really care. It might be Lebron, maybe not. However IMO, Lebron>Jordan. There have been a lot of greats and Jordan is not the GOAT.

YMMV.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I don't really care how he's rated.

I think David Thompson is the best college player I've ever seen, and http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gifChristain Laettner http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gifthe most clutch college player ever, but beyond that? Meh. http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

[thedukelamere]

First things first, I'm biased; born on the south side of Chicago (the Indiana side) in '87, it was an embarrassment of riches regarding who to root for as I learned to play basketball myself. While I learned how to dribble, I was treated to a team that shared my name winning back to back natties and the Bulls winning a three-peat. '94 and '95 were rough (lost my first bet at age 7 thanks to Arkansas.. Grandpa made me pull weeds, earn $5 and then give it to him), but watching the Bulls 2nd three-peat will always be up there just behind seeing '10 and '15 live in Indy.

I was a huge LeBron fan in high school and followed him closely thanks to the Bulls entering NBA purgatory and being perpetually unexciting. I started to sour on him thanks to The Decision, and after that chink in his armor I began to realize how differently he played vs how I played growing up. Watching MJ get bullied, smirk and then go to war made me respect the hell out of him, and there hasn't been a time in my life where I've called foul in any sport on my own, even after tearing my ACL getting blindsided by a moving pick. I'm a firm believer in busting your butt, that chicks dig floorburns, and that the ball never lies. LeBron is arguably the most physically dominant athlete of all time in terms of size, athleticism, etc. so his crybaby antics just make me sick. I understand that's the way the NBA is nowadays and that it's strategic to accumulate fouls and get into the bonus, but watching Bron writhe in pain over and over and over and over has unfortunately become the image next to his name in my NBA dictionary.

I verily contend that:
1. LeBron is an all-time great and we shouldn't judge the body of work until it's over.
2. After watching Curry hold his own getting backed down by LeBron, the 1-on-1 pick up game being a clear LeBron advantage over MJ is silly.
3. Allowing MJ and LeBron to draft a team/ coach out of anyone in NBA history, MJ's team would win a 7 game series over 50% of the time.
4. Allowing MJ and LeBron to draft EACH OTHER's team/coach out of anyone in NBA history, MJ's team would win a 7 game series over 50% of the time.
5. LeBron is an inherently better person than MJ...

... but MJ is still the GOAT.

[NSDukeFan]

Where do Dirk Nowitzki (1 MVP, 13 time all-star, 12 time all-NBA - 4 1sts, 5 2nds, 3 3rds, 1 title, 1 Finals MVP, 6th all-time leading scorer, 11th in 3-pointers, 5th in games, 3rd in minutes, 26th in rebounds, 38% 3pt shooter, 87% FT shooter as a 7 footer) and Tim Duncan (2 x MVP, 15! x all-star, 15-time all-NBA, 10 1sts, 3 2nds, 2 3rds, 15! time all-defensive, 8 1sts, 7 2nds, 5 titles, 3-times Finals MVP, 14th all-time in points, 6th in rebounds, 5th in blocks, anchor of the Spurs dynasty) rank among the all-time greats?
I assume they have to both be ranked pretty high, but it’s getting crowded at the top.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

First things first, I'm biased; born on the south side of Chicago (the Indiana side) in '87, it was an embarrassment of riches regarding who to root for as I learned to play basketball myself. While I learned how to dribble, I was treated to a team that shared my name winning back to back natties and the Bulls winning a three-peat. '94 and '95 were rough (lost my first bet at age 7 thanks to Arkansas.. Grandpa made me pull weeds, earn $5 and then give it to him), but watching the Bulls 2nd three-peat will always be up there just behind seeing '10 and '15 live in Indy.

I was a huge LeBron fan in high school and followed him closely thanks to the Bulls entering NBA purgatory and being perpetually unexciting. I started to sour on him thanks to The Decision, and after that chink in his armor I began to realize how differently he played vs how I played growing up. Watching MJ get bullied, smirk and then go to war made me respect the hell out of him, and there hasn't been a time in my life where I've called foul in any sport on my own, even after tearing my ACL getting blindsided by a moving pick. I'm a firm believer in busting your butt, that chicks dig floorburns, and that the ball never lies. LeBron is arguably the most physically dominant athlete of all time in terms of size, athleticism, etc. so his crybaby antics just make me sick. I understand that's the way the NBA is nowadays and that it's strategic to accumulate fouls and get into the bonus, but watching Bron writhe in pain over and over and over and over has unfortunately become the image next to his name in my NBA dictionary.

I verily contend that:
1. LeBron is an all-time great and we shouldn't judge the body of work until it's over.
2. After watching Curry hold his own getting backed down by LeBron, the 1-on-1 pick up game being a clear LeBron advantage over MJ is silly.
3. Allowing MJ and LeBron to draft a team/ coach out of anyone in NBA history, MJ's team would win a 7 game series over 50% of the time.
4. Allowing MJ and LeBron to draft EACH OTHER's team/coach out of anyone in NBA history, MJ's team would win a 7 game series over 50% of the time.
5. LeBron is an inherently better person than MJ...

... but MJ is still the GOAT.

This is a great post. Full of subjective emotion and truth. Thanks for the reply.

My only nit to pick is that if you turn off NBA games when you see whining after a foul, you will watch precious little ball. It nearly ruins the sport for me.

If you want to whine about calls and noncalls, go play soccer where they have perfected the form.

[RPS]

I don't like any of the offered choices.

I think LeBron has Jordan beat, but I also disagree with the assumption of many here that the choice is necessarily MJ v. LeBron. Kareem says "hi." And he's not the only one.


LeBron may be the most gifted basketball player of all time, but until he wins at least two or three more NBA championships, he's not the GOAT.Whenever this (silly) argument is trotted out, I feel compelled to note that Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships (and also won an Olympic gold medal, two NCAA championships and two California high school state championships).

For what it's worth, I think Bill Walton was the greatest college player I ever saw, closely followed by David Thompson. I also would have liked to have seen Pete Maravich on a good team in college (and the NBA, for that matter). I remember Red Auerbach waxing eloquent on Maravich on several of his "Red on Roundball" segments. One of them is embedded below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHSb4uSR7V8

If forced to choose an overall GOAT, I'll go with Russell edging out Kareem.

Now get off my lawn.

[ice-9]

Whenever this (silly) argument is trotted out, I feel compelled to note that Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships (and also won an Olympic gold medal, two NCAA championships and two California high school state championships).

Are you arguing with yourself?

I was only saying that LeBron is not the GOAT.

Bemuses me to see people arguing a strawman and then calling the scarecrow silly.

[JNort]

I don't like any of the offered choices.

I think LeBron has Jordan beat, but I also disagree with the assumption of many here that the choice is necessarily MJ v. LeBron. Kareem says "hi." And he's not the only one.

Whenever this (silly) argument is trotted out, I feel compelled to note that Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships (and also won an Olympic gold medal, two NCAA championships and two California high school state championships).

For what it's worth, I think Bill Walton was the greatest college player I ever saw, closely followed by David Thompson. I also would have liked to have seen Pete Maravich on a good team in college (and the NBA, for that matter). I remember Red Auerbach waxing eloquent on Maravich on several of his "Red on Roundball" segments. One of them is embedded below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHSb4uSR7V8

If forced to choose an overall GOAT, I'll go with Russell edging out Kareem.

Now get off my lawn.
Bill Russell isn't top 4 for certain. Maybe make a case for him at 5 all time but it's up for debate.

[NSDukeFan]

I find it difficult to exclude for certain Bill Russell from the top 4, when he is the greatest winner of all-time and is tied for second with the most MVPs of all-time, with Jordan. He also has the second most rebounds of all-time, but his strength as a defensive player won’t show up in conventional stats. I don’t know for sure if that should exclude him from the list of four greatest players in NBA history.

[JNort]

I find it difficult to exclude for certain Bill Russell from the top 4, when he is the greatest winner of all-time and is tied for second with the most MVPs of all-time, with Jordan. He also has the second most rebounds of all-time, but his strength as a defensive player won’t show up in conventional stats. I don’t know for sure if that should exclude him from the list of four greatest players in NBA history.

If every player in history was available to you in 1 big fantasy NBA draft your telling me you would take Bill at 1? Championships are the single most overrated part of a GOAT discussion since it's a team win. Give me Magic, LeBron, Jordan and Kareem who are the biggest difference makers in NBA history.

[vick]

I find it difficult to exclude for certain Bill Russell from the top 4, when he is the greatest winner of all-time and is tied for second with the most MVPs of all-time, with Jordan. He also has the second most rebounds of all-time, but his strength as a defensive player won’t show up in conventional stats. I don’t know for sure if that should exclude him from the list of four greatest players in NBA history.

I would find it hard to exclude a six-time MVP as well, even if you ignore the whole rings thing (which is too much, even for someone like me who thinks it's overrated).

That said, I think people are often pretty inconsistent on how they evaluate older players. If how players perform against peers is all that matters, why doesn't George Mikan ever enter into people's top-10? The reality is, if you go far enough back, you're looking at a level of basketball that's just far inferior to the modern game. Whether you reflect that in your ratings is, of course, up to you, but it's odd that people treat the early '50s as some sort of unrateable past, but not the late-50s.

[Steven43]

If every player in history was available to you in 1 big fantasy NBA draft your telling me you would take Bill at 1? Championships are the single most overrated part of a GOAT discussion since it's a team win. Give me Magic, LeBron, Jordan and Kareem who are the biggest difference makers in NBA history.

Larry Bird was a better basketball player than his contemporary Magic Johnson in just about every way possible. He was a MUCH better shooter (from close to the basket to 25 feet away); a better free throw shooter, a better rebounder; a more clutch player (nobody has ever come close to Bird for being able to hit big shots); was just as good of a passer (Magic’s single greatest strength) and probably equivalent as an overall leader.

Magic was a truly great player, but Bird was better. I think some people forget just how dominant Bird was because his last five seasons were marred by severe injuries. And even those injuries were yet another testament to his greatness as well as his sheer will to win as he would often get hurt by recklessly disregarding personal safety while putting his body in harms way. He would do ANYTHING to win. This guy was so tough that he played with pain that would have forced lesser mortals to stay in bed all day or continually go on the disabled list. For peak performance I never saw anyone as great as Larry Bird, who by the way, happened to play in an era which was overflowing with all-time greats.

[NSDukeFan]

If every player in history was available to you in 1 big fantasy NBA draft your telling me you would take Bill at 1? Championships are the single most overrated part of a GOAT discussion since it's a team win. Give me Magic, LeBron, Jordan and Kareem who are the biggest difference makers in NBA history.

I’m not sure if I would take Russell at #1 or not, but if I wanted to make sure I would win, I would certainly consider the guy who always won and was the MVP of the league 5 times. I would think he would have to be considered, along with Kareem, Jordan, LeBron, Wilt and possibly Magic , Bird, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Karl Malone, etc.
It certainly is difficult to compare across eras, but I’m glad to have seen the great players of the 80s to today.

[JNort]

Larry Bird was a better basketball player than his contemporary Magic Johnson in just about every way possible. He was a MUCH better shooter (from close to the basket to 25 feet away); a better free throw shooter, a better rebounder; a more clutch player (nobody has ever come close to Bird for being able to hit big shots); was just as good of a passer (Magic’s single greatest strength) and probably equivalent as an overall leader.

Magic was a truly great player, but Bird was better. I think some people forget just how dominant Bird was because his last five seasons were marred by severe injuries. And even those injuries were yet another testament to his greatness as well as his sheer will to win as he would often get hurt by recklessly disregarding personal safety while putting his body in harms way. He would do ANYTHING to win. This guy was so tough that he played with pain that would have forced lesser mortals to stay in bed all day or continually go on the disabled list. For peak performance I never saw anyone as great as Larry Bird, who by the way, happened to play in an era which was overflowing with all-time greats.
I personally would put Bird 5th just behind Magic. It's a matter of preference though towards style of play and size at the position. Bird was the betyer player imo

[NSDukeFan]

I personally would put Bird 5th just behind Magic. It's a matter of preference though towards style of play and size at the position. Bird was the betyer player imo

I would take Magic, but I was a Lakers fan and didn’t appreciate Bird until he retired.

[LasVegas]

So Lebron just opened up his “I Promise “ school in Akron today. Eligible students who complete the program get a full ride to the University of Akron too.

“The school will operate with a longer-than-normal school year, with a focus on accelerated learning to bring kids up to speed who otherwise might be lagging. In addition, there is a focus on combating factors outside of the classroom that could cause children to struggle.

Services are available to help students deal from stress related to parents who are struggling to make ends meet. In addition there are activities to prevent the kids from having too much idle time and potentially getting into trouble.

The school also provides services to families, which include job placement assistance for parents and an on-site food bank that will allow parents to pick out foods they can prepare at home.

LeBron James often credits his bicycle as a huge factor in his childhood that gave him an escape from dangerous parts of his neighborhood and the freedom to explore — every student will receive a bicycle when they arrive.“

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/7/30/17629560/lebron-james-i-promise-school-akron

[Furniture]

Well done LeBron!!

[elvis14]

I'm not a LeBron fan. I've said it before on this board that I just don't ever seem to find myself rooting for him when he plays (probably because he's so good I never see him as an underdog...and a few on court things...).

Watching SportsCenter this morning and listening to the interview he did talking about his childhood and this school I was truly impressed. He seemed sincerely humbled by the impact this school can make. I love that he's giving back in this way and impressed by his attitude towards the whole thing. Don't know if I've liked LeBron this much since he was that incredible kid coming out of high school. Very impressive all the way around and a great way to lead by example.

[left_hook_lacey]

So Lebron just opened up his “I Promise “ school in Akron today. Eligible students who complete the program get a full ride to the University of Akron too.

“The school will operate with a longer-than-normal school year, with a focus on accelerated learning to bring kids up to speed who otherwise might be lagging. In addition, there is a focus on combating factors outside of the classroom that could cause children to struggle.

Services are available to help students deal from stress related to parents who are struggling to make ends meet. In addition there are activities to prevent the kids from having too much idle time and potentially getting into trouble.

The school also provides services to families, which include job placement assistance for parents and an on-site food bank that will allow parents to pick out foods they can prepare at home.

LeBron James often credits his bicycle as a huge factor in his childhood that gave him an escape from dangerous parts of his neighborhood and the freedom to explore — every student will receive a bicycle when they arrive.“

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/7/30/17629560/lebron-james-i-promise-school-akron

What constitutes an eligible student and what is completion of the program? Graduation to high school?

[LasVegas]

What constitutes an eligible student and what is completion of the program? Graduation to high school?

I believe all your have to do is graduate high school eventually. There might be some other stipulations in their like attendance, trouble with the law, etc. but I am not sure. I know the program already has over 1000 kids in it and the only thing I can find on it is that the kids need to “complete the academic program”. It’s not exclusive to students at the new school but I assume it guarantees you a spot on the free tuition train.

[kAzE]

I'm not a LeBron fan. I've said it before on this board that I just don't ever seem to find myself rooting for him when he plays (probably because he's so good I never see him as an underdog...and a few on court things...).

Watching SportsCenter this morning and listening to the interview he did talking about his childhood and this school I was truly impressed. He seemed sincerely humbled by the impact this school can make. I love that he's giving back in this way and impressed by his attitude towards the whole thing. Don't know if I've liked LeBron this much since he was that incredible kid coming out of high school. Very impressive all the way around and a great way to lead by example.

Well said. I echo pretty much all of these sentiments, but I've been warming up to LeBron ever since he destroyed the Celtics this past playoffs. He was unstoppable against the best defensive team in the league, and it was crystal clear that he is by far the best player in the game. The gap between him and even the 2nd best guy is pretty huge.

That game 1 performance in the Finals was literally the greatest single game I have ever seen one player have, including anything Jordan did. It's an embarrassment to the game of basketball that JR Smith made sure it was a wasted effort.

This school is huge for the kids. Tons of celebrities with just as much power and influence never even come close to what LeBron has done for his community.

I don't believe it factors in to the G.O.A.T. debate, but I certainly think more of LeBron as a human being and as a family man than Jordan.

[nmduke2001]

The School is really cool. I wish more celebrities and ultra wealthy would follow his lead.

Getting to the question: my buddy and I were arguing about it yesterday. I am firmly in the Lebron over MJ camp. During our conversation, we decided that the two are not very similar at all. My buddy considers Lebron a much better Magic. So if you think that Lebron is Magic, with top level scoring, defense and athleticism, is that better than MJ. So the question becomes; Do you think Magic 4.0 is better than MJ 1.0? I think yes.

[luvdahops]

The School is really cool. I wish more celebrities and ultra wealthy would follow his lead.

Getting to the question: my buddy and I were arguing about it yesterday. I am firmly in the Lebron over MJ camp. During our conversation, we decided that the two are not very similar at all. My buddy considers Lebron a much better Magic. So if you think that Lebron is Magic, with top level scoring, defense and athleticism, is that better than MJ. So the question becomes; Do you think Magic 4.0 is better than MJ 1.0? I think yes.

I've always considered Lebron to be more of a hybrid between Magic and Jordan. Keep in mind that Magic was only an adequate defender - pretty good off the ball and on the defensive glass, but below average in terms of 1 on 1 D (same was true of Bird btw). He was certainly never dominant on that end the way Lebron and MJ were for most of their careers.

I still give a slight edge to MJ overall, with intangibles a tipping factor, but the debate remains legitimate.

[subzero02]

I've always considered Lebron to be more of a hybrid between Magic and Jordan. Keep in mind that Magic was only an adequate defender - pretty good off the ball and on the defensive glass, but below average in terms of 1 on 1 D (same was true of Bird btw). He was certainly never dominant on that end the way Lebron and MJ were for most of their careers.

I still give a slight edge to MJ overall, with intangibles a tipping factor, but the debate remains legitimate.

When LeBron finally hangs up his sneakers, his choke job in the 2011 finals and his overall finals record will be listed highly amongst the reasons why he isn't the goat.

[PackMan97]

I can not and will not ever consider someone the GOAT if they couldn't even make their high school's varsity basketball team as a sophomore. To be the GOAT you have to be the GOAT in kindergarten, in middle school, on the playground, in high school, in college and in the NBA. MJ was only the GOAT in the NBA. Being the GOAT in the NBA isnt' that big of a deal. You've got what? A few hundred people to be better than in any given year, and maybe 5,000 people over the history of the NBA? How many millions of kids played basketball in high school? And MJ couldn't even make varsity until he was a Junior.

Not the GOAT.

/thread

[ice-9]

My toddler is already balling in play school. I think the evaluation should start from there!

Now if only the kid will stop traveling with the ball all the time...

[flyingdutchdevil]

My toddler is already balling in play school. I think the evaluation should start from there!

Now if only the kid will stop traveling with the ball all the time...

He's being taught to play in the NBA, not college ;)

[subzero02]

I can not and will not ever consider someone the GOAT if they couldn't even make their high school's varsity basketball team as a sophomore. To be the GOAT you have to be the GOAT in kindergarten, in middle school, on the playground, in high school, in college and in the NBA. MJ was only the GOAT in the NBA. Being the GOAT in the NBA isnt' that big of a deal. You've got what? A few hundred people to be better than in any given year, and maybe 5,000 people over the history of the NBA? How many millions of kids played basketball in high school? And MJ couldn't even make varsity until he was a Junior.

Not the GOAT.

/thread
In 2011, LeBron was in his 8th year as an NBA player and he was making his 2nd finals appearance. He was also playing alongside two other top 20 NBA veterans in Bosh and Wade. His team was a 2 to 1 favorite to defeat the Mavericks before the finals began and at least twice during the series, the Heat's win probability exceeded 70%. Lebron's +/- for the series was -41 and he was -24 in the 6th and decisive game. In his more recent NBA finals, Lebron has posted a record of 7 wins and 20 losses. While Lebron is much improved in recent years, he appeared to mail it in during the 4th and decisive game of the finals this year. There aren't blemishes like this on Jordan's record and he has twice as much NBA championship hardware as the chosen one.

Interesting notes about Jordan's failed attempt to make the varsity squad as a sophomore. There was only 1 slot on the roster for a sophomore; the squad already featured 11 seniors and 3 juniors. At the time, Jordan was 5'9" or just over 2.5 cinder blocks. He was beaten out by a 6'7" sophomore who would go on to play professionally in Europe. The 2nd tallest player on the varsity squad was 6'3". The next year, after growing 6", Jordan would make the varsity squad. He scored 35 points in his first varsity game and averaged over 25 points for the season.

[CDu]

In 2011, LeBron was in his 8th year as an NBA player and he was making his 2nd finals appearance. He was also playing alongside two other top 20 NBA veterans in Bosh and Wade. His team was a 2 to 1 favorite to defeat the Mavericks before the finals began and at least twice during the series, the Heat's win probability exceeded 70%. Lebron's +/- for the series was -41 and he was -24 in the 6th and decisive game. In his more recent NBA finals, Lebron has posted a record of 7 wins and 20 losses. While Lebron is much improved in recent years, he appeared to mail it in during the 4th and decisive game of the finals this year. There aren't blemishes like this on Jordan's record and he has twice as much NBA championship hardware as the chosen one.

Interesting notes about Jordan's failed attempt to make the varsity squad as a sophomore. There was only slot on the roster for a sophomore; the squad already featured 11 seniors and 3 sophomores. At the time, Jordan was only 5'9" or just over 2.5 cinder blocks. He was beaten out by a 6'7" sophomore who would go on to play professionally in Europe. The 2nd tallest player on the varsity squad was 6'3". The next year, after growing 6", Jordan would make the varsity squad. He scored 35 points in his first varsity game and averaged over 25 points for the season.

Invariably folks go to Finals record and chirp “6-0!” as if it is a discussion-ender. Which is great, except that it (a) ignores all the years that Jordan’s teams failed to make the Finals and (b) fails to account for quality of competition. Jordan never led his team to anything close to a series upset in his career. He never overcame better teams in the East until those teams (Boston, Atlanta, Detriot) aged out of contention. And when he finally started getting to the Finals, the Western teams were at best on par with the Bulls. By contrast, James carried two otherwise awful teams to the NBA Finals twice, where he rightly got curbstomped by better teams. Add to that the 2015 team without Love or Kyrie that he took to game 6 before losing. And of course the 2017 loss to a vastly superior Warriors squad bordering on GOAT team territory. And LeBron leading his team to an upset of the 2016 Warriors who won 73 regular season games.

Jordan was certainly a better frontrunner than LeBron was earlier in his career. But he wasn’t nearly as good as LeBron at willing an inferior team to great success. Seems kind of a wash to me. And if that is a wash, then LeBron kills Jordan on the individual stats.

It is also worth noting that LeBron isn’t done. He could still win another title or three. If he, say, wins 3 more titles, and sits at 6-6 in the Finals, can one really argue that Jordan was better? How about 4-6, given the extenuating circumstances above?

[cato]

Invariably folks go to Finals record and chirp “6-0!” as if it is a discussion-ender. Which is great, except that it (a) ignores all the years that Jordan’s teams failed to make the Finals and (b) fails to account for quality of competition. Jordan never led his team to anything close to a series upset in his career. He never overcame better teams in the East until those teams (Boston, Atlanta, Detriot) aged out of contention. And when he finally started getting to the Finals, the Western teams were at best on par with the Bulls. By contrast, James carried two otherwise awful teams to the NBA Finals twice, where he rightly got curbstomped by better teams. Add to that the 2015 team without Love or Kyrie that he took to game 6 before losing. And of course the 2017 loss to a vastly superior Warriors squad bordering on GOAT team territory. And LeBron leading his team to an upset of the 2016 Warriors who won 73 regular season games.

Jordan was certainly a better frontrunner than LeBron was earlier in his career. But he wasn’t nearly as good as LeBron at willing an inferior team to great success. Seems kind of a wash to me. And if that is a wash, then LeBron kills Jordan on the individual stats.

It is also worth noting that LeBron isn’t done. He could still win another title or three. If he, say, wins 3 more titles, and sits at 6-6 in the Finals, can one really argue that Jordan was better? How about 4-6, given the extenuating circumstances above?

And, for the record, CDu is a Bulls fan.

[Wander]

It is also worth noting that LeBron isn’t done. He could still win another title or three. If he, say, wins 3 more titles, and sits at 6-6 in the Finals, can one really argue that Jordan was better? How about 4-6, given the extenuating circumstances above?

Isn't that a bit of a strawman? If Lebron wins 3 more titles, I'm pretty sure it will be the mainstream opinion that Lebron is the GOAT.

It seems to me that Jordan is slightly ahead of Lebron right now both in team success and individual awards. So while I agree "6-0" is not a discussion ender, I don't really think the bulk of all the factors combined favors Lebron – for now.

(Also, IMO the fact that Lebron has hopped around trying to hunt titles and such makes it more fair to compare total number of championships, but I admit that's subjective)

[CDu]

Isn't that a bit of a strawman? If Lebron wins 3 more titles, I'm pretty sure it will be the mainstream opinion that Lebron is the GOAT.

It seems to me that Jordan is slightly ahead of Lebron right now both in team success and individual awards. So while I agree "6-0" is not a discussion ender, I don't really think the bulk of all the factors combined favors Lebron – for now.

(Also, IMO the fact that Lebron has hopped around trying to hunt titles and such makes it more fair to compare total number of championships, but I admit that's subjective)

It is totally subjective, as is the entire discussion. Folks have different subjective criteria that they value most.

For the record, I don’t think EITHER guy is the GOAT. For me it is Wilt or Kareem above both, and somewhat comfortably so.

[subzero02]

Invariably folks go to Finals record and chirp “6-0!” as if it is a discussion-ender. Which is great, except that it (a) ignores all the years that Jordan’s teams failed to make the Finals and (b) fails to account for quality of competition. Jordan never led his team to anything close to a series upset in his career. He never overcame better teams in the East until those teams (Boston, Atlanta, Detriot) aged out of contention. And when he finally started getting to the Finals, the Western teams were at best on par with the Bulls. By contrast, James carried two otherwise awful teams to the NBA Finals twice, where he rightly got curbstomped by better teams. Add to that the 2015 team without Love or Kyrie that he took to game 6 before losing. And of course the 2017 loss to a vastly superior Warriors squad bordering on GOAT team territory. And LeBron leading his team to an upset of the 2016 Warriors who won 73 regular season games.

Jordan was certainly a better frontrunner than LeBron was earlier in his career. But he wasn’t nearly as good as LeBron at willing an inferior team to great success. Seems kind of a wash to me. And if that is a wash, then LeBron kills Jordan on the individual stats.

It is also worth noting that LeBron isn’t done. He could still win another title or three. If he, say, wins 3 more titles, and sits at 6-6 in the Finals, can one really argue that Jordan was better? How about 4-6, given the extenuating circumstances above?


I think this should be stitched into LeBron's eastern conference championship banners. Over the better part of the last decade, the east has fallen somewhere between goose down and cotton candy in terms of softness. The behind whippings that LeBron's squads have suffered in the finals are a reflection of the NBA's lack of balance. It can be argued that very few if any of LeBron's eastern conference playoff opponents have been as good as the knicks, pacers, magic and pistons squads that Jordan beat en route to the NBA finals. A major reason why LeBron was able to take bad teams to the finals is because he has played in a pretty bad conference for quite some time.

How would you rank the 15 finals opponents the two faced? The golden state warriors would occupy several if not all of the top 4 slots. I'd rank the 2011 Mavericks squad that LeBron choked against last. The Super Sonics, Suns, and Jazz teams that Jordan faced were all great ball clubs that likely would have run several of the Lebron led squads that participated in the finals off the court.

[Indoor66]

It is totally subjective, as is the entire discussion. Folks have different subjective criteria that they value most.

For the record, I don’t think EITHER guy is the GOAT. For me it is Wilt or Kareem above both, and somewhat comfortably so.

Finally, some accurate critical thinking in this thread.

[CDu]

I think this should be stitched into LeBron's eastern conference championship banners. Over the better part of the last decade, the east has fallen somewhere between goose down and cotton candy in terms of softness. The behind whippings that LeBron's squads have suffered in the finals are a reflection of the NBA's lack of balance. It can be argued that very few if any of LeBron's eastern conference playoff opponents have been as good as the knicks, pacers, magic and pistons squads that Jordan beat en route to the NBA finals. A major reason why LeBron was able to take bad teams to the finals is because he has played in a pretty bad conference for quite some time.

I don't know that the East this decade was discernibly worse than the East of the early-90s or the late-90s. The 2011 Bulls were as good as any Eastern Conference team Jordan beat. The Pacers were as good as any non-Shaq team EC team Jordan beat in the 90s. Yes, the 2012 (the year Rose went down) East got a lot easier, as did the last 4 iterations with Atlanta, Toronto, and a watered-down Boston as contenders. And LeBron did have to face the Celtics and Pistons in the 00s, which were as good as any EC team Jordan faced in the 90s.

But again, Jordan's team never won those series against better teams. LeBron's team DID pull off a legitimate upset, beating the 73-win Warriors.


How would you rank the 15 finals opponents the two faced? The golden state warriors would occupy several if not all of the top 4 slots. I'd rank the 2011 Mavericks squad that LeBron choked against last. The Super Sonics, Suns, and Jazz teams that Jordan faced were all great ball clubs that likely would have run several of the Lebron led squads that participated in the finals off the court.

I would rank them:

1-4: Warriors
5: 2014 Spurs
6-11: Some combination of the Suns, Jazz, Sonics, 2007 Spurs, and Thunder
12-15: Some combination of the 2013 Spurs, Mavs, Lakers, and Blazers

LeBron's teams were more than 2:1 underdogs (per 538's Elo Ratings) in 7 of his 9 Finals appearances. He went 2-5 in those series. His team was a slightly better than coin flip favorite against the Mavs (that Mavs team was better than folks give them credit for, with Nowitzki, Marion, Chandler, Terry, an older-but-still-effective Kidd, and Stojakovic coming off the bench) and a 2:1 favorite against the 2013 Spurs, and went 1-1. Comparatively, Jordan's teams were 2:1 favorites in 4 of his 6 Finals, and only a coin-flip dog in one of his 6 Finals.

Put Jordan on those Heat and Cavs teams, and he probably beats Dallas but loses to the Warriors, just like he always did against teams that were notably better than his teams. So he'd probably be 3-6 in the Finals as well. Heck, put Jordan on the 2007 Cavs team, and the Cavs probably don't make the Finals at all.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

I don't think Lebron is even close to MJ. I would still rank Kobe over Lebron right now. I again with Kerr's comments about how Lebron treated JR. I think it was a dumb pass that Hill got fouled on anyway. MJ has the ball in that situation he would have had Hill in the right place to make the jump shot just as he did with Paxon and Kerr. I think MJ was able to bring out the best in his fellow players a little better than Lebron. MJ had guys like Rodney Brown and Bill Winnington playing at a high level when it mattered. MJ has won Defense POY and I don't think Lebron has that nod, just another oversight because most people don't really give the credit MJ deserves on the defensive end.

[Wander]

But again, Jordan's team never won those series against better teams. LeBron's team DID pull off a legitimate upset, beating the 73-win Warriors.


Seems like a bizarre metric that just punishes Jordan for being on the best team in the first place.

[CDu]

Seems like a bizarre metric that just punishes Jordan for being on the best team in the first place.

Seems like a fair metric considering that one's team is not solely dependent on one's own abilities, nor is the quality of the opponent in any way affected by one's own abilities. Seems just as fair, if not moreso, than comparing only results in Finals appearances and ignoring relative competition and results prior to the Finals.

And remember: that means that for the majority of Jordan's career, he WASN'T on the best team. Just that when he was, his teams won. When his team wasn't the best team, it didn't make the Finals at all. Whereas when LeBron didn't have the best team in his conference, he still made the Finals a fair amount.

[Spanarkel]

I don't think Lebron is even close to MJ. I would still rank Kobe over Lebron right now. I again with Kerr's comments about how Lebron treated JR. I think it was a dumb pass that Hill got fouled on anyway. MJ has the ball in that situation he would have had Hill in the right place to make the jump shot just as he did with Paxon and Kerr. I think MJ was able to bring out the best in his fellow players a little better than Lebron. MJ had guys like Rodney Brown and Bill Winnington playing at a high level when it mattered. MJ has won Defense POY and I don't think Lebron has that nod, just another oversight because most people don't really give the credit MJ deserves on the defensive end.

DPOY is an award voted for by sportswriters. 4 times the "writers" DPOY winnter didn't even get named to that season's NBA All-Defensive Team (First Team), which is selected by the coaches, and which BTW LBJ has been selected for 6 times(5 first-team).

[PackMan97]

Seems like a fair metric considering that one's team is not solely dependent on one's own abilities, nor is the quality of the opponent in any way affected by one's own abilities. Seems just as fair, if not moreso, than comparing only results in Finals appearances and ignoring relative competition and results prior to the Finals.

And remember: that means that for the majority of Jordan's career, he WASN'T on the best team. Just that when he was, his teams won. When his team wasn't the best team, it didn't make the Finals at all. Whereas when LeBron didn't have the best team in his conference, he still made the Finals a fair amount.

To be fair to Jordan, in the '92-93 season, the Bulls were second (to the Nicks) in the Eastern Conference...and they still won the NBA Championship. So once out of his six championships, Jordan wasn't on the best team...just the second best ;)

[LasVegas]

I don't think Lebron is even close to MJ. I would still rank Kobe over Lebron right now. I again with Kerr's comments about how Lebron treated JR. I think it was a dumb pass that Hill got fouled on anyway. MJ has the ball in that situation he would have had Hill in the right place to make the jump shot just as he did with Paxon and Kerr. I think MJ was able to bring out the best in his fellow players a little better than Lebron. MJ had guys like Rodney Brown and Bill Winnington playing at a high level when it mattered. MJ has won Defense POY and I don't think Lebron has that nod, just another oversight because most people don't really give the credit MJ deserves on the defensive end.

You lost me at Kobe.

[dudog84]

To be fair to Jordan, in the '92-93 season, the Bulls were second (to the Nicks) in the Eastern Conference...and they still won the NBA Championship. So once out of his six championships, Jordan wasn't on the best team...just the second best ;)

I thought Stevie Nicks played in the West. IMO, Stevie was past her prime by '92-93. But that's what I love about this board, I'm always learning something new. ;)

[NSDukeFan]

I don't know that the East this decade was discernibly worse than the East of the early-90s or the late-90s. The 2011 Bulls were as good as any Eastern Conference team Jordan beat. The Pacers were as good as any non-Shaq team EC team Jordan beat in the 90s. Yes, the 2012 (the year Rose went down) East got a lot easier, as did the last 4 iterations with Atlanta, Toronto, and a watered-down Boston as contenders. And LeBron did have to face the Celtics and Pistons in the 00s, which were as good as any EC team Jordan faced in the 90s.

But again, Jordan's team never won those series against better teams. LeBron's team DID pull off a legitimate upset, beating the 73-win Warriors.



I would rank them:

1-4: Warriors
5: 2014 Spurs
6-11: Some combination of the Suns, Jazz, Sonics, 2007 Spurs, and Thunder
12-15: Some combination of the 2013 Spurs, Mavs, Lakers, and Blazers

LeBron's teams were more than 2:1 underdogs (per 538's Elo Ratings) in 7 of his 9 Finals appearances. He went 2-5 in those series. His team was a slightly better than coin flip favorite against the Mavs (that Mavs team was better than folks give them credit for, with Nowitzki, Marion, Chandler, Terry, an older-but-still-effective Kidd, and Stojakovic coming off the bench) and a 2:1 favorite against the 2013 Spurs, and went 1-1. Comparatively, Jordan's teams were 2:1 favorites in 4 of his 6 Finals, and only a coin-flip dog in one of his 6 Finals.

Put Jordan on those Heat and Cavs teams, and he probably beats Dallas but loses to the Warriors, just like he always did against teams that were notably better than his teams. So he'd probably be 3-6 in the Finals as well. Heck, put Jordan on the 2007 Cavs team, and the Cavs probably don't make the Finals at all.

I agree with almost all, of not all, of your points, but I might rank the 2014 Spurs in the top 4 of teams LeBron has faced in th finals. I am biased as I am a Duncan, Ginobili and Pop fan, but that team was something to watch.

[Steven43]

Finally, some accurate critical thinking in this thread.

You were joking, right? Or are you in agreement with CDU regarding Chamberlain and Alcindor? Anyway, I still say this whole thing is pointless. Somewhat entertaining, yes, but it leads nowhere.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You were joking, right? Or are you in agreement with CDU regarding Chamberlain and Alcindor? Anyway, I still say this whole thing is pointless. Somewhat entertaining, yes, but it leads nowhere.

Of course it is pointless. That's why I created a bucket thread to put all this talk into, in an effort to clean up all other NBA threads.

Again, I too would pick Chamberlain, Kareem, and LeBron, and I wouldn't argue with anyone over the order.

[phaedrus]

Of course it is pointless. That's why I created a bucket thread to put all this talk into, in an effort to clean up all other NBA threads.

Again, I too would pick Chamberlain, Kareem, and LeBron, and I wouldn't argue with anyone over the order.

Hockey fans who get tired of debating Gretzky vs. Howe usually stipulate to a top 5 (add Lemieux, Richard, and Orr).

Add Jordan and Russell to your list, and we can all go home happy.

Just kidding. Keep debating.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

hockey fans who get tired of debating gretzky vs. Howe usually stipulate to a top 5 (add lemieux, richard, and orr).

Add jordan and russell to your list, and we can all go home happy.

Just kidding. Keep debating.

whar kobe?? Whar?

[subzero02]

I don't know that the East this decade was discernibly worse than the East of the early-90s or the late-90s. The 2011 Bulls were as good as any Eastern Conference team Jordan beat. The Pacers were as good as any non-Shaq team EC team Jordan beat in the 90s. Yes, the 2012 (the year Rose went down) East got a lot easier, as did the last 4 iterations with Atlanta, Toronto, and a watered-down Boston as contenders. And LeBron did have to face the Celtics and Pistons in the 00s, which were as good as any EC team Jordan faced in the 90s.

But again, Jordan's team never won those series against better teams. LeBron's team DID pull off a legitimate upset, beating the 73-win Warriors.



I would rank them:

1-4: Warriors
5: 2014 Spurs
6-11: Some combination of the Suns, Jazz, Sonics, 2007 Spurs, and Thunder
12-15: Some combination of the 2013 Spurs, Mavs, Lakers, and Blazers

LeBron's teams were more than 2:1 underdogs (per 538's Elo Ratings) in 7 of his 9 Finals appearances. He went 2-5 in those series. His team was a slightly better than coin flip favorite against the Mavs (that Mavs team was better than folks give them credit for, with Nowitzki, Marion, Chandler, Terry, an older-but-still-effective Kidd, and Stojakovic coming off the bench) and a 2:1 favorite against the 2013 Spurs, and went 1-1. Comparatively, Jordan's teams were 2:1 favorites in 4 of his 6 Finals, and only a coin-flip dog in one of his 6 Finals.

Put Jordan on those Heat and Cavs teams, and he probably beats Dallas but loses to the Warriors, just like he always did against teams that were notably better than his teams. So he'd probably be 3-6 in the Finals as well. Heck, put Jordan on the 2007 Cavs team, and the Cavs probably don't make the Finals at all.

Michael Jordan faced the Orlando Magic twice during the playoffs. In both meetings, the Magic featured Shaq and Penny. These two squads were better than any eastern conference opponent that Lebron defeated.

I'd rank the 1991 Pistons,92 Knicks, 93 knicks, 96 Magic and 98 Pacers that a Jordan led team defeated ahead of any eastern conference opponent that a Lebron led team defeated.

Until you brought up the 538 ELO ratings, the odds I had seen for the Heat going into the series against the Mavericks had ranged between -180(64.29%win probability) and -200(66.67% win probability). I located the 538 article that contained the win probabilities that you used and found an additional stat that you didn't mention. They derived an expected championships statistic by adding the cumulative ELO based win probabilities for each player's finals appearances. They then subtracted this value from the actual number of championships won by the player and used the resulting difference to rank the players. At the top of the list was Michael Jordan with a score of 1.9 ( 6-4.1). Lebron scored a .2 (3-2.8).

GOAT Evidence (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/)

[CDu]

Michael Jordan faced the Orlando Magic twice during the playoffs. In both meetings, the Magic featured Shaq and Penny. These two squads were better than any eastern conference opponent that Lebron defeated.

I'd rank the 1991 Pistons,92 Knicks, 93 knicks, 96 Magic and 98 Pacers that a Jordan led team defeated ahead of any eastern conference opponent that a Lebron led team defeated.

Until you brought up the 538 ELO ratings, the odds I had seen for the Heat going into the series against the Mavericks had ranged between -180(64.29%win probability) and -200(66.67% win probability). I located the 538 article that contained the win probabilities that you used and found an additional stat that you didn't mention. They derived an expected championships statistic by adding the cumulative ELO based win probabilities for each player's finals appearances. They then subtracted this value from the actual number of championships won by the player and used the resulting difference to rank the players. At the top of the list was Michael Jordan with a score of 1.9 ( 6-4.1). Lebron scored a .2 (3-2.8).

GOAT Evidence (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/)

I disagree with the idea that the 91 Pistons (running on fumes by then), Knicks, or 98 Pacers were in the same neighborhood as the 2011 Bulls. That was really great Bulls team that the Heat smashed. Folks forget now because Rose got hurt and Noah and Deng eventually broke down from Thibs abuse. But that was a great team. I also think you are overrating the Knicks in general (they should have lost to the Bulls sans Jordan in 1994 but for a bad call in game 7).

And yes, I read that article. Here’s the problem with that analysis: on a small sample size (like 6 or 9 iterations), you are unlikely to see the average play out. Especially when the matchups are so extremely skewed. Jordan was a heavy favorite 4 of six times, with only one toss-up series. You shouldn’t blink an eye at a 2:1 favorite winning 4 times in a row. Likewise, you shouldn’t bat an eye if a 3:1 or 4:1 or 5:1 underdog loses 6 times. But when that happens? Said underdog is now 1.2 wins below expectation, even though he was heavily expected to lose each time. And the favorite is suddenly 1.33 wins above expectation despite just doing the expected each time. So LeBron had to steal one and then outperform expectations by winning both of the other two (only one of which they were heavy favorites) just to break even. Meanwhile, Jordan would have had to tank a favored series AND lose the 50/50 to break even.

You would need a lot more samples before it would be reasonable to expect the mean to play out. With so few samples, the range of reasonable outcomes is too large. Those analyses should really have included confidence intervals because without you get a false sense of certainty that simply shouldn’t be there over such a small sample.

Worth noting that Nate Silver disagrees with the author (Payne) and thinks LeBron and Jordan are neck and neck at this point (per Twitter).

[subzero02]

I disagree with the idea that the 91 Pistons (running on fumes by then), Knicks, or 98 Pacers were in the same neighborhood as the 2011 Bulls.

That was really great Bulls team that the Heat smashed. Folks forget now because Rose got hurt and Noah and Deng eventually broke down from Thibs abuse. But that was a great team. I also think you are overrating the Knicks in general (they should have lost to the Bulls sans Jordan in 1994 but for a bad call in game 7).




The 2011 Chicago Bulls had a regular season record of 62-20(.756 winning percentage). They entered the eastern conference finals with an 8-3 playoff record. The Miami Heat had a regular season record of 58-24(.707 winning percentage) and entered the eastern conference finals with an 8-2 playoff record. The Miami Heat would win the series against the bulls 4 games to 1 and then go on to lose to the underdog mavs 4 games to 2 in the NBA finals.

The 1998 Pacers had a regular season record of 58-24(.707 winning percentage). They entered the conference finals with a 7-2 playoff record having won their first round series 3-1 over the cavaliers and the next round, 4-1 over the knicks. The 1998 Chicago Bulls had a 62-20(.756 winning percentage) regular season record and heading into the conference finals, they had a 7-1 playoff record. The Pacers would take the eventual NBA champions to a game 7 and with 9 minutes remaining in the 4th quarter of game 7, the Pacers led by 3 points. The Bulls would go on to win an amazingly close game 7, 88 to 83. During Jordan's 6 championship seasons, this was by far the closest a team came to eliminating the GOAT. The 98 Indiana Pacers were battle tested and featured a group of veterans that included two 1998 all star selections( top 50 all time player Reggie Miller and Rik Smits) and 1 future all star in Dale Davis. They also had Mark Jackson( 4th all time in assists) running PG and Larry Bird on the bench. If they had gotten by the Bulls, I think there's a good chance that they would have beaten the Utah Jazz for the championship.

The 2011 Chicago Bulls finished the year with an overall record(regular season + playoffs) of 71-27(.724 winning percentage) and overall, the 1998 Pacers were 68-29(.701 winning percentage). I give the 98 Pacers the nod over the 2011 Bulls based on the Pacers' veteran playoff tested roster and the fact that they had the eventual NBA champions on the ropes in the 4th quarter of game 7. When compared to the 2011 Bulls, the 98 Indiana Pacers performed significantly better against a much better opponent, an opponent without a penchant for choking. if these squads don't reside in the same neighborhood, it's only because the 98 Pacers live in a more exclusive one.

[subzero02]

A certain twitter user has weighed in on the debate. The answer is now obvious... LeBron truly is the GOAT. There's not a doubt in my mind now.

[CDu]

The 2011 Bulls had an MVP to be (Rose), a multiple-time All-Star and 3rd Team All-NBAer (Boozer), another multiple-time All Star and 2nd Team All-Defense (Deng), and another multiple All Star, 1st Team All NBA, DPoY, and multiple All Defense winner. They were better than those 1998 Pacers.

[lotusland]

A certain twitter user has weighed in on the debate. The answer is now obvious... LeBron truly is the GOAT. There's not a doubt in my mind now.

Yeah I may be on the King bandwagon. Looking for a seat near the exit tho.

[Wander]

A certain twitter user has weighed in on the debate. The answer is now obvious... LeBron truly is the GOAT. There's not a doubt in my mind now.

I don't know why I couldn't see the clarity and elegance in CDu's arguments before. LeBron is clearly #1!

[thedukelamere]

The 2011 Bulls had an MVP to be (Rose), a multiple-time All-Star and 3rd Team All-NBAer (Boozer), another multiple-time All Star and 2nd Team All-Defense (Deng), and another multiple All Star, 1st Team All NBA, DPoY, and multiple All Defense winner. They were better than those 1998 Pacers.

Yeah, but '98 Pacers had Rik Smits. Nuf said :cool:

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, but '98 Pacers had Rik Smits. Nuf said :cool:

Hey now. That's the OG Flying Dutchman.

[NSDukeFan]

Yeah, but '98 Pacers had Rik Smits. Nuf said :cool:

Was he ever an All-Star? If not, he must have been close.

[CDu]

Hey now. That's the OG Flying Dutchman.

Honus Wagner begs to differ. Smits was the Dunking Dutchman.

[sagegrouse]

Was he ever an All-Star? If not, he must have been close.

1998. He also scored 12,000 points.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Honus Wagner begs to differ. Smits was the Dunking Dutchman.

Which is ironic, because Honus is German, not Dutch. Then again, tons of folks get confused with ‘Dutch’ and ‘Deutsch’

[sagegrouse]

Which is ironic, because Honus is German, not Dutch. Then again, tons of folks get confused with ‘Dutch’ and ‘Deutsch’

You mean, as in "Pennsylvania Dutch?"

[rasputin]

Which is ironic, because Honus is German, not Dutch. Then again, tons of folks get confused with ‘Dutch’ and ‘Deutsch’

The way people (including most broadcasters) mispronounce his name drives me crazy. The o in Honus is a short o, it's pronounced hahn-us, not hoe-nus.

That's because his real name was John Peter Wagner, and Johannes is a Germanic variant of John.

You can confirm this by looking at old box scores and interviews. Occasionally in written form he was referred to as Hans, which clearly indicates the short "o". Also in an interview of, I think, Hans Lobert (who was briefly a teammate of Wagner's in Pittsburgh), in The Glory of Their Times, Lobert says that his teammates would refer to him as "Hans number 2."

[martydoesntfoul]

Lebron is less than 250 points away from a 40/10/10/1/2 career (40K+ points, 10K+ boards, 10K+ assists, 1K+ blocks, 2K+ steals). Plus 2K+ triples and 100+ triple-doubles. Does this change the GOAT debate in any way?

[ClemmonsDevil]

Lebron is less than 250 points away from a 40/10/10/1/2 career (40K+ points, 10K+ boards, 10K+ assists, 1K+ blocks, 2K+ steals). Plus 2K+ triples and 100+ triple-doubles. Does this change the GOAT debate in any way?

Not for me. 2nd behind MJ.

[Luke102452]

I rate Jordan, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Magic, and Russell ahead of Lebron

[rsvman]

Lebron is less than 250 points away from a 40/10/10/1/2 career (40K+ points, 10K+ boards, 10K+ assists, 1K+ blocks, 2K+ steals). Plus 2K+ triples and 100+ triple-doubles. Does this change the GOAT debate in any way?

You could make an argument even without this that he is the GOAT. I know the MJ guys won't like it, but the argument could be made.

I take it from your post that he has already reached all those milestones except the points? That is seriously impressive.

[weezie]

Ok whatever hooray for LeBron. Next question: how much money is it worth to an owner and to the fans to see him play with Bronny?