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View Full Version : Bill Simmons LOOOVVEESSS Jayson Tatum



jwillfan
05-27-2018, 06:09 AM
Article in The Ringer (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/26/17397294/jayson-tatum-boston-celtics-bill-simmons):

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/26/17397294/jayson-tatum-boston-celtics-bill-simmons

You have to get about halfway down before the Tatum gushing starts in earnest

dukelifer
05-27-2018, 06:42 AM
Article in The Ringer (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/26/17397294/jayson-tatum-boston-celtics-bill-simmons):

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/26/17397294/jayson-tatum-boston-celtics-bill-simmons

You have to get about halfway down before the Tatum gushing starts in earnest

This is true

Tatum arrived in the NBA at the best possible time, a child of the LeBron generation, weaned on stars who work their [butts] off, never stop improving their games, think like businessmen and cultivate their public personae in increasingly thoughtful ways. His postgame interviews are already incredibly polished and incredibly boring. Like Durant 10 years before him, he just comes off like a rookie who wants to ball and thatís it. Keep getting better. Keep plugging away. The rest will come later.

CDu
05-27-2018, 06:44 AM
Of course he does. For one thing, Tatum is an absolutely fantastic player. For another, Simmons is a huge Boston homer.

I still love that Simmons felt the Garnett/Pierce trade was horrible at the time (and bashed it on national TV). Tatum is a direct result of that trade.

JasonEvans
05-27-2018, 10:00 AM
Simmons rambling article does make one important, salient point that would sober up the drunkest man...

We are currently watching Jayson Tatum at his worst. He will do nothing but get better for the next 3-5 years, then he will plateau for 4 or 5 years and then he will start to decline and eventually retire. But, rookie Jayson Tatum will likely be the worst Jayson Tatum ever in the NBA.

That...
Is...
Terrifying.

-Jason "If he's not a first team All-NBA player in 3 years, I'll be shocked. Injuries are the only thing I can think of that would prevent that" Evans

dukelifer
05-27-2018, 10:13 AM
Simmons rambling article does make one important, salient point that would sober up the drunkest man...

We are currently watching Jayson Tatum at his worst. He will do nothing but get better for the next 3-5 years, then he will plateau for 4 or 5 years and then he will start to decline and eventually retire. But, rookie Jayson Tatum will likely be the worst Jayson Tatum ever in the NBA.

That...
Is...
Terrifying.

-Jason "If he's not a first team All-NBA player in 3 years, I'll be shocked. Injuries are the only thing I can think of that would prevent that" Evans
There are not a lot of players who thrive in the big moments. To me- that is the separator of a talented player and a great player. It is what made Kobe and Michael great and now Lebron. Jayson is just getting more confidence. What is scary for teams in the East is that Kyrie has that in him as well- he plays better with pressure.

CDu
05-27-2018, 10:23 AM
Simmons rambling article does make one important, salient point that would sober up the drunkest man...

We are currently watching Jayson Tatum at his worst. He will do nothing but get better for the next 3-5 years, then he will plateau for 4 or 5 years and then he will start to decline and eventually retire. But, rookie Jayson Tatum will likely be the worst Jayson Tatum ever in the NBA.

That...
Is...
Terrifying.

-Jason "If he's not a first team All-NBA player in 3 years, I'll be shocked. Injuries are the only thing I can think of that would prevent that" Evans

I actually think the biggest thing(s) in Tatumís way are that he plays a position that is LOADED. LeBron, Durant, Leonard, Butler, Harden, DeRozan, George. Even assuming voters spread those guys over 2-3 positions, it is going to be sn absolute battle to get to 1st Team All-NBA for him in the next few years.

Faison1
05-27-2018, 10:49 AM
Simmons is funny....I was pretty sure he hated all things Duke, at least that was my impression from miles away. Then I stumbled on an hour long podcast with him and JJ Redick. Evidently, the two are good friends, and talk over the phone quite frequently.

And now, he's a huge Tatum fan.

Wonders never cease.

Was I wrong in my impression of Bill Simmons?

CDu
05-27-2018, 10:58 AM
Simmons is funny...I was pretty sure he hated all things Duke, at least that was my impression from miles away. Then I stumbled on an hour long podcast with him and JJ Redick. Evidently, the two are good friends, and talk over the phone quite frequently.

And now, he's a huge Tatum fan.

Wonders never cease.

Was I wrong in my impression of Bill Simmons?

Nope. Back when UConn was good, he was a HUGE Duke hater.

JasonEvans
05-27-2018, 11:09 AM
I actually think the biggest thing(s) in Tatum’s way are that he plays a position that is LOADED. LeBron, Durant, Leonard, Butler, Harden, DeRozan, George.

Age in 3 years when Tatum is just about to enter his peak:
LeBron 36
Durant 32
Leonard 29
Butler 31
Harden 31
DeRozan 31
George 31

Other than Leonard, they are all on the other side of 30**. Jayson Tatum will be 23.

-Jason "**- with so many more guys entering the league at age 19, I think guys are going to suffer the effects of age quicker than when most folks played 2 or 3 or 4 years of college ball" Evans

CDu
05-27-2018, 11:30 AM
Age in 3 years when Tatum is just about to enter his peak:
LeBron 36
Durant 32
Leonard 29
Butler 31
Harden 31
DeRozan 31
George 31

Other than Leonard, they are all on the other side of 30**. Jayson Tatum will be 23.

-Jason "**- with so many more guys entering the league at age 19, I think guys are going to suffer the effects of age quicker than when most folks played 2 or 3 or 4 years of college ball" Evans

Wiyh the exception of LeBron, though, all of those guys will still be in their primes in 3 years. And with LeBron, I wonít rule anything out. Now, in 5-6 years? Absolutely.

dudog84
05-27-2018, 01:49 PM
I imagine LeBron will be voted 1st team all-NBA for as long as he continues to play (or close to it).

NSDukeFan
05-28-2018, 05:39 PM
I imagine LeBron will be voted 1st team all-NBA for as long as he continues to play (or close to it).

Do you think heís Kareem or something?

moonpie23
05-28-2018, 06:32 PM
who is bill simmons?

kAzE
05-29-2018, 11:47 AM
Simmons rambling article does make one important, salient point that would sober up the drunkest man...

We are currently watching Jayson Tatum at his worst. He will do nothing but get better for the next 3-5 years, then he will plateau for 4 or 5 years and then he will start to decline and eventually retire. But, rookie Jayson Tatum will likely be the worst Jayson Tatum ever in the NBA.

That...
Is...
Terrifying.

-Jason "If he's not a first team All-NBA player in 3 years, I'll be shocked. Injuries are the only thing I can think of that would prevent that" Evans

In 3 years, Jayson Tatum will be the best player on the Boston Celtics. Better than Kyrie. I'm willing to say that despite Kyrie being my favorite player. Doing what he did this year, despite being a skinny teenager for most of the season, is remarkable. When he fills out that frame, the ceiling is way higher than the roof.

That would basically leave Grant Hill as the only Duke player to challenge him as the best Duke NBA player of all time. Sure, Elton is that convo, but I think we can reasonably agree that Jayson's trajectory will put him ahead of Elton.

I don't think there's any doubt Tatum will surpass Hill's career accomplishments (knock on wood), but at what point will he be considered better than Grant? It's too early to talk about this, of course, but given what we saw from Tatum in his age 19-20 season, this isn't that crazy.

3 time 1st team All-NBA? Maybe 4 times? Grant only did it once. I think if that happens, Tatum will become the greatest Duke NBA player ever.

CDu
05-29-2018, 11:55 AM
In 3 years, Jayson Tatum will be the best player on the Boston Celtics. Better than Kyrie. I'm willing to say that despite Kyrie being my favorite player.

That's basically leaves Grant Hill as the only Duke player to challenge him as the best Duke NBA player of all time.

I don't think there's any doubt Tatum will surpass Hill's career accomplishments (knock on wood), but at what point will he be considered better than Grant? It's too early to talk about this, of course, but given what we saw from Tatum in his age 19-20 season, this isn't that crazy.

3 time 1st team All-NBA? Grant only did it once. I think if that happens, Tatum will become the greatest Duke NBA player ever.

Hill is just such a tough case because of the injury, which happened as he was coming off one of the best seasons of his career (his 4th 2nd Team All-NBA honor) and just as he was entering his prime. That injury and complications thereafter basically cost him the next 4 years, or his entire prime. He never again approached the player he was in those first 6 years - his best season post injury was his age 32 season, which was a watered down version of his rookie year. I suspect that he'd have added another 1st Team or 2 in that time, as well as another 2nd Team (or 2) as well, if not for the ankle issues. Just a huge "what if" for him. Really unfortunate.

But getting to 3 1st Team All-NBAs (assuming some 2nd Team honors as well) would make Tatum the most accomplished Duke NBA player ever. Assuming Irving doesn't ascend further and pass that too, of course.

dudog84
05-29-2018, 12:10 PM
Is this what is known as "Getting over the tips of our skis"?

kAzE
05-29-2018, 12:11 PM
Hill is just such a tough case because of the injury, which happened as he was coming off one of the best seasons of his career (his 4th 2nd Team All-NBA honor) and just as he was entering his prime. That injury and complications thereafter basically cost him the next 4 years, or his entire prime. He never again approached the player he was in those first 6 years - his best season post injury was his age 32 season, which was a watered down version of his rookie year. I suspect that he'd have added another 1st Team or 2 in that time, as well as another 2nd Team (or 2) as well, if not for the ankle issues. Just a huge "what if" for him. Really unfortunate.

But getting to 3 1st Team All-NBAs (assuming some 2nd Team honors as well) would make Tatum the most accomplished Duke NBA player ever. Assuming Irving doesn't ascend further and pass that too, of course.

Kyrie seems to be getting dangerously close to joining the long list of Dukies whose careers were derailed by injuries. You hate to talk about it, but it's a long, long list :(

Basketball gods, please be merciful.


Is this what is known as "Getting over the tips of our skis"?

Nah, it's a typical fun off season conversation.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-29-2018, 12:15 PM
Is this what is known as "Getting over the tips of our skis"?

I mean, Tatum had a great rookie year, but I am with you... Not putting him in the hall of fame yet.

CDu
05-29-2018, 02:00 PM
Kyrie seems to be getting dangerously close to joining the long list of Dukies whose careers were derailed by injuries. You hate to talk about it, but it's a long, long list :(

Basketball gods, please be merciful.

Yeah, the injury list for Irving is getting pretty long. I'm hopeful he can get over it. But it definitely seems as though it could be chronic. And on top of that, he plays one of the two toughest positions to break into the 1st Team All-NBA list (SF being the other). Gonna be tough for the next few years with Paul, Lillard, Westbrook, and Curry around. Let alone if Simmons gets considered a PG.

I only included Irving because he's still arguably at the head of the list of current Duke players with his 3rd Team All-NBA honor a few years ago. So technically Tatum is still looking up at Irving in terms of career stature (not surprising given that Tatum is a rookie, of course). But I do fear that the decline phase may come sooner for Irving than most given all the lower-body injuries he's suffered, and I do doubt he will approach Hill's individual accolades.

NSDukeFan
05-29-2018, 02:04 PM
Yeah, the injury list for Irving is getting pretty long. I'm hopeful he can get over it. But it definitely seems as though it could be chronic. And on top of that, he plays one of the two toughest positions to break into the 1st Team All-NBA list (SF being the other). Gonna be tough for the next few years with Paul, Lillard, Westbrook, and Curry around. Let alone if Simmons gets considered a PG.

I only included Irving because he's still arguably at the head of the list of current Duke players with his 3rd Team All-NBA honor a few years ago. So technically Tatum is still looking up at Irving in terms of career stature (not surprising given that Tatum is a rookie, of course). But I do fear that the decline phase may come sooner for Irving than most given all the lower-body injuries he's suffered, and I do doubt he will approach Hill's individual accolades.

Just call Irving a shooting guard and his competition decreases, though I guess you could probably include Westbrook, Harden, Lillard and Curry as scoring guards as well.

kAzE
05-29-2018, 02:11 PM
Just call Irving a shooting guard and his competition decreases, though I guess you could probably include Westbrook, Harden, Lillard and Curry as scoring guards as well.

There's no difference between 2 guards and point guards in terms of all-NBA. The rules state that you have to vote for 2 guards, 2 forwards, and 1 center on each team.

That said, it's still a terrible way to do it. It should just be the top 5 players, regardless of position, because it gets brought up all the time in historical comparisons, just like we're doing right now.

weezie
05-29-2018, 04:20 PM
Simmons is funny...I was pretty sure he hated all things Duke, at least that was my impression from miles away. Then I stumbled on an hour long podcast with him and JJ Redick. Evidently, the two are good friends, and talk over the phone quite frequently.

And now, he's a huge Tatum fan.

Wonders never cease.

Was I wrong in my impression of Bill Simmons?

No. He will still find fault with "somebody" at Duke. It's one of his cute schticks.

JasonEvans
05-29-2018, 07:23 PM
There's no difference between 2 guards and point guards in terms of all-NBA. The rules state that you have to vote for 2 guards, 2 forwards, and 1 center on each team.

That said, it's still a terrible way to do it. It should just be the top 5 players, regardless of position, because it gets brought up all the time in historical comparisons, just like we're doing right now.

Well, if it is a "team" then it would be silly to pick 5 PGs or 5 Cs as you cannot win with a team like that.

That said, I would be in favor of a breakdown that said you had to vote for 2 guards, 2 forward/centers, and one wild card player.

CDu
05-29-2018, 08:11 PM
Just call Irving a shooting guard and his competition decreases, though I guess you could probably include Westbrook, Harden, Lillard and Curry as scoring guards as well.

Yeah, at SG he could be arguably second behind Harden. At “guard” he would be behind Paul, Curry, Westbrook, and Harden, and in the discussion with Lillard, Simmons, and Wall (and maybe others that I am forgetting off the top of my head). Some years, one of those guys could sneak up to the first line due to injuries. But really, for the next few years those guys are jockeying for second/third-team.

That said, I agree with kAzE that using those measures is a bit unfair. Because (a) it is not simply the best 5 players but largely restricted to semi-arbitrary and antiquated positions, and (b) even if it was best 5, that is both subjective and era-dependent.

To use tennis as an example, Andy Murray is one of the greatest tennis players ever. In any other era, he would have won like 5 or 6 majors. Not unlike a Stefan Edberg. But because he played at the same time as the greatest clay courter ever and arguably three of the five best players ever, he has very few successes at majors. So comparing him to players of the 80s or early 90s is a bit unfair.

Steven43
05-29-2018, 10:17 PM
Age in 3 years when Tatum is just about to enter his peak:
LeBron 36
Durant 32
Leonard 29
Butler 31
Harden 31
DeRozan 31
George 31

Other than Leonard, they are all on the other side of 30**. Jayson Tatum will be 23.
In three years Tatum should be better than George, DeRozan, and Butler. And he might also be better than Leonard (no idea if he will ever be back to what he was before the injury issues) and Harden (he might lose a half-step by then and if so, his game will suffer dramatically). That potentially leaves only James and Durant, and James might be crossing over the hill at that point. So it might just be KD and Tatum together at the top. Obviously, a lot has to happen between now and then, but it very well could play out that way.