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dukeinla
05-17-2018, 12:37 AM
i am a lakers season ticket holder and have been during Kareem"s last 10 seasons in LA and all through Shaq's career in LA. There is no comparison- Kareem was the most gifted center in NBA history. To limit the discussion to Shaq and Wilt is just plain wrong.

brevity
05-17-2018, 01:54 AM
Context: this DBR front page article (https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2018/5/14/17351160/the-michael-vs-lebron-is-a-great-question-heres-a-better-one-nba-playoffs).


We’ve been listening to the argument, which has heated up again lately, about who is better, LeBron James or Michael Jordan...

It reminded us of another argument though, which is even more interesting in a way: who was better, Shaquille O’ Neal or Wilt Chamberlain.

I don't know who is raising that argument, but bringing up Shaq seems kind of arbitrary, because the article doesn't put up much of a fight for him.

It's like if I said that comparing Coach K to Bruce Weber would be really interesting, and then proceeded to list all the things that Coach K has accomplished but Bruce Weber has not. Did I establish that Coach K had a stronger coaching career? Sure. Did I make it interesting? No.

JNort
05-17-2018, 02:55 AM
Wilt... is this a real debate?

BD80
05-17-2018, 08:31 AM
Wilt... is this a real debate?

Wilt was as strong, or stronger, as Shaq, and as skilled as Kareem. Wilt was a run jump athlete comparable to athletic wings. His hands were too big to effectively shoot jump shots, but his rolls and flips and hooks were enough.

HereBeforeCoachK
05-17-2018, 08:32 AM
Wilt... is this a real debate?

There's a fairness bias against Wilt. There's never been a human so freakish, and people kind of leave him out of these discussions because he's almost not human.

Kareem was incredible, but Wilt was more of different species. Wilt was accomplished on the rings and other gymnastic equipment. Think about that. Wilt played every single second of 79 games one season and missed 8 minutes of one game...that's all he missed all season. He averaged 50 points one season. There are indications he could've been a much more prolific scorer in his later years, but he didn't prioritize his scoring (well, not ON the court scoring).

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-17-2018, 09:56 AM
There's a fairness bias against Wilt. There's never been a human so freakish, and people kind of leave him out of these discussions because he's almost not human.

Kareem was incredible, but Wilt was more of different species. Wilt was accomplished on the rings and other gymnastic equipment. Think about that. Wilt played every single second of 79 games one season and missed 8 minutes of one game...that's all he missed all season. He averaged 50 points one season. There are indications he could've been a much more prolific scorer in his later years, but he didn't prioritize his scoring (well, not ON the court scoring).

If you have any doubts about Wilt, looks up his career numbers one on one against Russell. He absolutely smoked him.

It is Wilt/Kareem, then everyone else a few rungs below.

JasonEvans
05-17-2018, 10:28 AM
It is impossible to evaluate shaq v wilt unless we know what we are talking about...

Is this a wing eating contest?
Is this a rap battle?
Arm wrestling?
Are they jockeys riding very strong horses around a track?
Are they each being given $1 mil and then we see who has turned it into the most money in a year?

All I know is we can't be talking about basketball cause it isn't even a contest there.

sagegrouse
05-17-2018, 10:45 AM
It is impossible to evaluate shaq v wilt unless we know what we are talking about...

Is this a wing eating contest?
Is this a rap battle?
Arm wrestling?
Are they jockeys riding very strong horses around a track?
Are they each being given $1 mil and then we see who has turned it into the most money in a year?

All I know is we can't be talking about basketball cause it isn't even a contest there.

All I know, seeing this thread, is that it is the month of May.

camion
05-17-2018, 10:48 AM
All I know, seeing this thread, is that it is the month of May.

And the summer is long.

Lar77
05-17-2018, 11:07 AM
And the summer may make this a long thread.

For my two cents, Wilt is the best athlete to ever play the game. His exploits are almost mythical. To those who never saw him play, they aren't exaggerations. He was that good and would be that good today.

One sign of basketball greatness is how the NBA changes rules. Wilt caused the league to make several rule changes designed against him. Subsequent great players had rule changes that would favor them.

But Wilt was a difficult player to have on a team.

So choose as you will. For me, Wilt was the best followed by Kareem (who as a young player was almost unstoppable). But if I wanted to have a winning team, Bill Russell would be my first choice. Look at his teams starting with USF (or even before) - the man would not lose.

Hakeem, Shaq, a "healthy" Walton follow those three.

My only regret for Wilt was 1957.

NSDukeFan
05-17-2018, 11:16 AM
Yet Russell won 5 MVPs to Wilt’s 4. Wilt had more first team all-NBA nods than Russell, 7 to 3. Russell just kept winning and being the best player on winning teams year after year. Based on scoreboard, it’s hard to say Wilt smoked Russell.

Acymetric
05-17-2018, 11:42 AM
Yet Russell won 5 MVPs to Wilt’s 4. Wilt had more first team all-NBA nods than Russell, 7 to 3. Russell just kept winning and being the best player on winning teams year after year. Based on scoreboard, it’s hard to say Wilt smoked Russell.

This is somewhat rhetorical, but how can someone win 5 MVPs but only have 3 first-team all-NBA appearances?

kAzE
05-17-2018, 11:47 AM
Wilt was way before my time, but going by what I know about him and the little bit I have seen of him, Shaq is a clear tier below Wilt. Wilt vs. Kareem is a legit discussion (I think Kareem is slightly higher on my personal rankings), but both are top 6/top 7 players all-time, and Shaq isn't even top 10. Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, and Hakeem Olajuwon were all better than Shaq, too IMO:

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Wilt
8. Duncan
9. Durant (Probably controversial, but he belongs here)
10. Kobe
11. West
12. Oscar
13. Hakeem
14. Shaq

Reilly
05-17-2018, 11:48 AM
This is somewhat rhetorical, but how can someone win 5 MVPs but only have 3 first-team all-NBA appearances?

I believe Mitch Kupchak had ten first-team all-NBA honors, per the Helms Baking Co. -- even one when injured.

Indoor66
05-17-2018, 11:58 AM
Check it out:

Wilt vs Bill - Statistics (http://Wilt vs Bill - Statistics)

Wilt vs Bill - Head to Head (http://nbastatslab.com/index.php/2017/09/30/chamberlain-russell-player-comparison/)

Wilt vs Bill - Stats Disussion (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/450703-the-greatest-debate-in-nba-history-wilt-the-stilt-or-bill-russell#slide0)

Wilt vs Bill - Youtube Confrontations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UsLn9IjEhc)

Bill vs Wilt - Bill's Discussion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8r-WSWJM0M)

Wilt, Bill, Jordan - Who was greatest? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46RutBTe-as)

Wilt = Superman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvdsi6gLl8)

sagegrouse
05-17-2018, 12:00 PM
And the summer may make this a long thread.

One sign of basketball greatness is how the NBA changes rules. Wilt caused the league to make several rule changes designed against him. Subsequent great players had rule changes that would favor them.

A shout out to George Mikan! He would routinely soar above the rim to swat shots away. Hence the goal-tending rule was instituted. Mikan was an All-American at DePaul and played for the Minneapolis Lakers from 1948-49 through 1953-54, returning two years later for a half season. The Minnie Lakers won five NBA championships. During the very early years of the NBA, he was the best player by far.

Sad note and an appropriate fact for this thread: Mikan died penniless in Scottsdale in 2005. Shaq picked up the funeral expenses as a gesture of respect for the legendary player.

kAzE
05-17-2018, 12:09 PM
There's obviously some subjectivity to any all-time player rankings discussions, but if you're one of the "Wilt over Russell" people, you have consider more than just a player's pure basketball talent IMO. I think the player's personality should absolutely be considered in the discussion. Russell was an all-time incredible teammate who did whatever it took to win, regardless of his personal stats. Wilt made it a point to value his stats over everything. So while he was clearly more talented than Russell, I would pick Russell every time. I personally value winning over stats.

For example, is anybody going to argue Russell Westbrook is better than Steph Curry?

"But Westbrook averaged a triple double!"

Please, it's not even close.

Another example can be borrowed from the MJ vs. LeBron debate, although this one doesn't come down to stats. Yes, clearly, LeBron is physically and statistically superior to MJ. But he also holds his team hostage every year to the point where his team is forced to continually make short-sighted "win now" moves, which ultimately resulted in the pathetic roster situation the Cavs now find themselves in. He tried to TRADE KYRIE. This roster is LeBron's own doing. He put his own career before the team. That's my argument for MJ over LeBron.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-17-2018, 12:18 PM
Check it out:

Wilt vs Bill - Statistics (http://Wilt vs Bill - Statistics)

Wilt vs Bill - Head to Head (http://nbastatslab.com/index.php/2017/09/30/chamberlain-russell-player-comparison/)

Wilt vs Bill - Stats Disussion (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/450703-the-greatest-debate-in-nba-history-wilt-the-stilt-or-bill-russell#slide0)

Wilt vs Bill - Youtube Confrontations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UsLn9IjEhc)

Bill vs Wilt - Bill's Discussion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8r-WSWJM0M)

Wilt, Bill, Jordan - Who was greatest? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46RutBTe-as)

Wilt = Superman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvdsi6gLl8)

This is my point about Wilt. He played the best against the best.

CDu
05-17-2018, 03:18 PM
There's obviously some subjectivity to any all-time player rankings discussions, but if you're one of the "Wilt over Russell" people, you have consider more than just a player's pure basketball talent IMO. I think the player's personality should absolutely be considered in the discussion. Russell was an all-time incredible teammate who did whatever it took to win, regardless of his personal stats. Wilt made it a point to value his stats over everything. So while he was clearly more talented than Russell, I would pick Russell every time. I personally value winning over stats.

For example, is anybody going to argue Russell Westbrook is better than Steph Curry?

"But Westbrook averaged a triple double!"

Please, it's not even close.

Another example can be borrowed from the MJ vs. LeBron debate, although this one doesn't come down to stats. Yes, clearly, LeBron is physically and statistically superior to MJ. But he also holds his team hostage every year to the point where his team is forced to continually make short-sighted "win now" moves, which ultimately resulted in the pathetic roster situation the Cavs now find themselves in. He tried to TRADE KYRIE. This roster is LeBron's own doing. He put his own career before the team. That's my argument for MJ over LeBron.

The difference in the Curry vs Westbrook and Wilt vs Russell comparison is that Curry was the more efficient player, whereas Chamberlain was more efficient than Russell. It is hard for me to accept a “he wins” argument in discussion of who the best player is when the guy winning has both lesser stats AND lesser efficiency. I don’t buy that “doing what it takes to win” means being less efficient.

If Russell was putting up a better FG%, better rebounding, better assists, better anything other than wins, I would buy it. But it sure seems more like Russell just had better teammates and coaches than Wilt.

Lar77
05-17-2018, 03:24 PM
When Wilt first came to the NBA, his fall away jump shot was supposedly devastating, but he got away from using it because he could score at a higher percentage closer to the basket. Who knows how he would develop with different rules.

The videos showed how ridiculously dominant he was. I remember Bob Ferry (Danny's father), who was known for his own physical play, describing a time when he grabbed a rebound and when he came down Wilt grabbed the ball (with Bob still holding it) and lifted both the ball and him up for dunk, Ferry said he let go as they passed the rim, because he knew he was going to dunked as well. There are many stories like that.

Sage, since you brought up George Mikan, how about Bob Kurland? He dominated at Oklahoma A&M (now State) and decided to go to work instead of the NBA (how times have changed!).

Back to Wilt, at one point several NBA teams seriously considered bringing him back to the NBA - when he was 50!

Like I said earlier, you could make this an all summer long thread.

kAzE
05-17-2018, 03:26 PM
The difference in the Curry vs Westbrook and Wilt vs Russell comparison is that Curry was the more efficient player, whereas Chamberlain was more efficient than Russell. It is hard for me to accept a “he wins” argument in discussion of who the best player is when the guy winning has both lesser stats AND lesser efficiency. I don’t buy that “doing what it takes to win” means being less efficient.

If Russell was putting up a better FG%, better rebounding, better assists, better anything other than wins, I would buy it. But it sure seems more like Russell just had better teammates and coaches than Wilt.

Does that include the 3 years (2 of which were championship seasons) Bill Russell was his own head coach? :D

All kidding aside, yes, I realize Wilt was the more efficient player in terms of stats. Again, I'm not disputing that Wilt was by far the more talented basketball player. The question here is who would you rather have on your NBA team? I ranked them #6 and #7, so obviously both guys are all-time greats who would both be incredible guys to build a franchise around. It's not like I'm saying Bill was miles ahead of Wilt, they are very, very close.

But Russell did all of the little things, like keeping the ball in play when blocking shots, making perfect outlet passes, being a humble and brilliant leader, calling plays in huddles, organizing defensive schemes, knowing how to manage his teammates' egos and just being the smartest player on the court at all times. Let's just take a step back and think about how absurd it is that Russell won 2 rings as a player coach. That is a truly ridiculous accomplishment. Perhaps he did have better teammates than Wilt, but that can't be the only reason he won 11 championships. Bill Russell was the #1 reason Bill Russell won 11 championships.

We talk about players whose contributions don't show up on the stat sheet all the time (Al Horford!), so why disregard that completely when ranking them historically?

Lar77
05-17-2018, 03:26 PM
The difference in the Curry vs Westbrook and Wilt vs Russell comparison is that Curry was the more efficient player, whereas Chamberlain was more efficient than Russell. It is hard for me to accept a “he wins” argument in discussion of who the best player is when the guy winning has both lesser stats AND lesser efficiency. I don’t buy that “doing what it takes to win” means being less efficient.

If Russell was putting up a better FG%, better rebounding, better assists, better anything other than wins, I would buy it. But it sure seems more like Russell just had better teammates and coaches than Wilt.

He was also a better teammate and more coachable than Wilt. Who knows how Wilt would have done with Red Auerbach as his coach (he won when he had strong coaches and teammates).

HereBeforeCoachK
05-17-2018, 03:47 PM
If you have any doubts about Wilt, looks up his career numbers one on one against Russell. He absolutely smoked him.

It is Wilt/Kareem, then everyone else a few rungs below.

I have no doubts about Wilt.....he'd be my first pick in an all time pick'em. With what's known today about training and nutrition and supplements, what Wilt might be if he'd been born 30 years later is friggin scary.

rsvman
05-17-2018, 03:56 PM
Reportedly, Wilt was also a world-class volleyball player.

MartyClark
05-17-2018, 04:07 PM
Reportedly, Wilt was also a world-class volleyball player.

Also a track star, if I recall correctly.

JetpackJesus
05-17-2018, 04:10 PM
Another example can be borrowed from the MJ vs. LeBron debate, although this one doesn't come down to stats. Yes, clearly, LeBron is physically and statistically superior to MJ. But he also holds his team hostage every year to the point where his team is forced to continually make short-sighted "win now" moves, which ultimately resulted in the pathetic roster situation the Cavs now find themselves in. He tried to TRADE KYRIE. This roster is LeBron's own doing. He put his own career before the team. That's my argument for MJ over LeBron.

I think there's some problems with this argument based on the salary cap rules each player labored under. There was no max salary in Jordan's era, and teams could go over the salary cap to resign their own players without the penalties that exist in today's NBA. The NBA instituted the maximum salary because of Jordan.

In '97-98: Jordan made $33.1 million. The salary cap that year was $26.9 million. The average NBA payroll in '97-'98 was $32.7 million. The Bulls total payroll was >$61 million, and the total salary of all the non-MJ players on the team also exceeded the salary cap. That season Jordan's salary was higher than the entire payrolls of 19 out of the 29 teams. Jordan didn't handicap the Bulls because it was practically impossible for him to do so.

The short-sighted moves the Cavs keep making all relate to the salary cap rules now in existence.

Also, I don't think we know that it's true that LeBron tried to have Kyrie traded. I know we know Kyrie's camp thought that was the case, and, true or not, that pushed him out the door.

kAzE
05-17-2018, 04:22 PM
I think there's some problems with this argument based on the salary cap rules each player labored under. There was no max salary in Jordan's era, and teams could go over the salary cap to resign their own players without the penalties that exist in today's NBA. The NBA instituted the maximum salary because of Jordan.

In '97-98: Jordan made $33.1 million. The salary cap that year was $26.9 million. The average NBA payroll in '97-'98 was $32.7 million. The Bulls total payroll was >$61 million, and the total salary of all the non-MJ players on the team also exceeded the salary cap. That season Jordan's salary was higher than the entire payrolls of 19 out of the 29 teams. Jordan didn't handicap the Bulls because it was practically impossible for him to do so.

The short-sighted moves the Cavs keep making all relate to the salary cap rules now in existence.

Also, I don't think we know that it's true that LeBron tried to have Kyrie traded. I know we know Kyrie's camp thought that was the case, and, true or not, that pushed him out the door.

To the first bolded point: Jordan never signed 2 year deals with an opt-out clause after 1 year, which is what LeBron does EVERY year. Even before he left Cleveland the first time, the Cavs felt massive pressure to make win-now moves to keep LeBron happy. The Bulls never felt forced to bend to Jordan's every whim to appease him and keep him in Chicago. Jordan never considered leaving the Bulls for another NBA team. Even though it took 7 long years to win their first title, the Bulls were given the opportunity to make roster moves with a long term goal in mind, rather than be constantly worried about whether or not MJ would leave the team.

LeBron is also extremely passive aggressive when it comes to confrontation of any kind, making easily fixable problems much, much worse over time. When he's upset, he shuts everyone out and posts confusing, passive aggressive Tweets rather than face his problems like an adult. When things are going well, LeBron is fantastic. When they aren't, he's a cancer for team chemistry, both on and off the court.

To the 2nd point: If it was a misunderstanding, why was LeBron unable to convince Kyrie to stay? Wouldn't it have taken just one honest, open conversation to clear the air? To me, it demonstrates a lack of leadership ability.

JasonEvans
05-17-2018, 04:59 PM
Back to Wilt, at one point several NBA teams seriously considered bringing him back to the NBA - when he was 50!

According to Larry Brown (http://static.espn.go.com/nba/news/1999/1012/110842.html), Wilt used to participate in pickup games with Magic Johnson and some other pros when Wilt was in his mid-upper 40s. One day Magic called a couple cheap fouls on Wilt and Wilt made a proclamation:


"Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at the age of 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt.

"So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one (of Johnson's) shots get to the rim."

By the way, you can understand why Wilt was mad at a couple fouls and a goaltending being called because he never fouled out of a single game in his NBA career despite being perhaps the greatest rim protector of all time. We will never know how many shots he blocked because it was not an official stat back in his day, but there is shot block data on 112 of the games (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/3s7rlj/heres_112_nba_games_where_shot_block_data_exists/)Wilt played in. In those 112 games, Wilt averaged 8.8 blocks per game. Put your head around that...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

sagegrouse
05-17-2018, 05:32 PM
Also a track star, if I recall correctly.

I recall a story from the 1970's where he was going after the world water skiing speed record.

CDu
05-17-2018, 06:00 PM
To the first bolded point: Jordan never signed 2 year deals with an opt-out clause after 1 year, which is what LeBron does EVERY year. Even before he left Cleveland the first time, the Cavs felt massive pressure to make win-now moves to keep LeBron happy. The Bulls never felt forced to bend to Jordan's every whim to appease him and keep him in Chicago. Jordan never considered leaving the Bulls for another NBA team. Even though it took 7 long years to win their first title, the Bulls were given the opportunity to make roster moves with a long term goal in mind, rather than be constantly worried about whether or not MJ would leave the team.

LeBron is also extremely passive aggressive when it comes to confrontation of any kind, making easily fixable problems much, much worse over time. When he's upset, he shuts everyone out and posts confusing, passive aggressive Tweets rather than face his problems like an adult. When things are going well, LeBron is fantastic. When they aren't, he's a cancer for team chemistry, both on and off the court.

To the 2nd point: If it was a misunderstanding, why was LeBron unable to convince Kyrie to stay? Wouldn't it have taken just one honest, open conversation to clear the air? To me, it demonstrates a lack of leadership ability.

Re: Kyrie/LeBron, I don’t think LeBron had much input in it either way. I think Kyrie wanted to be the man, and knew that would never happen playing with LeBron. I also think he didn’t really like playing in Cleveland. His comments post trade seem to indicate as much on both counts. Which is, of course, fine. But I am not sure it is fair to blame LeBron for Kyrie leaving.

CDu
05-17-2018, 06:03 PM
Does that include the 3 years (2 of which were championship seasons) Bill Russell was his own head coach? :D

All kidding aside, yes, I realize Wilt was the more efficient player in terms of stats. Again, I'm not disputing that Wilt was by far the more talented basketball player. The question here is who would you rather have on your NBA team? I ranked them #6 and #7, so obviously both guys are all-time greats who would both be incredible guys to build a franchise around. It's not like I'm saying Bill was miles ahead of Wilt, they are very, very close.

But Russell did all of the little things, like keeping the ball in play when blocking shots, making perfect outlet passes, being a humble and brilliant leader, calling plays in huddles, organizing defensive schemes, knowing how to manage his teammates' egos and just being the smartest player on the court at all times. Let's just take a step back and think about how absurd it is that Russell won 2 rings as a player coach. That is a truly ridiculous accomplishment. Perhaps he did have better teammates than Wilt, but that can't be the only reason he won 11 championships. Bill Russell was the #1 reason Bill Russell won 11 championships.

We talk about players whose contributions don't show up on the stat sheet all the time (Al Horford!), so why disregard that completely when ranking them historically?

For someone who has said that Wilt was before his time, you sure seem to have a well-formed opinion of the unseen attributes that Russell may or may not have provided. ;)

kAzE
05-17-2018, 06:07 PM
For someone who has said that Wilt was before his time, you sure seem to have a well-formed opinion of the unseen attributes that Russell may or may not have provided. ;)

There are these things called books. I've read a couple of them about this very subject. Those aren't opinions, those facts drawn from first hand accounts :)

And it's not like it's a secret that Bill Russell was fantastic teammate and leader. All it takes is a quick Google search to confirm that.


Re: Kyrie/LeBron, I don’t think LeBron had much input in it either way. I think Kyrie wanted to be the man, and knew that would never happen playing with LeBron. I also think he didn’t really like playing in Cleveland. His comments post trade seem to indicate as much on both counts. Which is, of course, fine. But I am not sure it is fair to blame LeBron for Kyrie leaving.

I think that's a little bit of a mischaracterization. Kyrie was never going to become the best basketball player he could be with LeBron on his team. As you say, it's perfectly reasonable for him to want to leave the organization for any reason of his own choice. But saying that he "wanted to be the MAN" just sounds like it was totally ego-driven. I don't think Kyrie cares if he's "the man." He just wanted to be the best possible version of Kyrie Irving that he could possibly be, and that wasn't going to be possible in a role as a secondary ball handler. Like, if (and most likely WHEN) Jayson Tatum surpasses Kyrie as the best player on the Boston Celtics, I sincerely doubt Kyrie is going to want to leave Boston. Maybe that's semantics, but I think my rationale is much less egotistical-sounding in nature. Even now, I would argue Al Horford is the actual leader of the Celtics, not Kyrie. But Kyrie is the #1 ball handler.

So, even if that's not part of the equation, I still have a big issue with LeBron's contract structure. If he was truly committed to winning championships, he would have been willing to take a pay cut (Tom Brady/Golden State Warriors style) in order to achieve a roster capable of winning in the long term. But in the end, LeBron is all about LeBron. And that's why Jordan is still the GOAT.

CDu
05-17-2018, 06:40 PM
There are these things called books. I've read a couple of them about this very subject. Those aren't opinions, those facts drawn from first hand accounts :)

And it's not like it's a secret that Bill Russell was fantastic teammate and leader. All it takes is a quick Google search to confirm that.



I think that's a little bit of a mischaracterization. Kyrie was never going to become the best basketball player he could be with LeBron on his team. As you say, it's perfectly reasonable for him to want to leave the organization for any reason of his own choice. But saying that he "wanted to be the MAN" just sounds like it was totally ego-driven. I don't think Kyrie cares if he's "the man." He just wanted to be the best possible version of Kyrie Irving that he could possibly be, and that wasn't going to be possible in a role as a secondary ball handler. Maybe that's semantics, but I think my rationale is much less egotistical-sounding in nature.

So, even if that's not part of the equation, I still have a big issue with LeBron's contract structure. If he was truly committed to winning championships, he would have been willing to take a pay cut (Tom Brady/Golden State Warriors style) in order to achieve a roster capable of winning in the long term. But in the end, LeBron is all about LeBron. And that's why Jordan is still the GOAT.

I am not sure why you think Kyrie doesn’t want to be the man. But, it doesn’t matter I guess because it is all conjecture on both our parts.

I will say that it is unfair to talk about LeBron’s contract structure when pretty much everyone takes top dollar. Brady is in a pretty specific circumstance in that his wife might have made even more money than him. It is much easier to take less when you marry as wealthy as Brady did. Also, LeBron DID take less when he was in Miami (Wade made more money than LeBron there). So I don’t blame him for saying “forget that” now.

And with respect to your comparison to Jordan, Jordan DID actually hold things over the Bulls in the first chance he got. The problem is that the money wasn’t as good when he was young. He signed a $25 million deal in 1988... for 8 years. That contract (signed before he was established as best in the league) gave him financial security at a time when the NBA was still developing into the lucrative business it is today. But it also prevented him from playing Geppetto until much later in his career. Once he became a free agent again, he did in fact sign one-year deals. And he strongarmed the organization into paying the guys he specifically wanted or else he would retire. Twice, the Bulls complied. When they were done with Phil, Jordan retired. So I don’t think it is appropriate to call out LeBron relative to Jordan on this. Because Jordan would have done the exact same thing had he had the opportunity. And the proof is in the fact that he did just that at the first real chance he got.

As for those facts you have read about Russell, I suspect they are part fact and part romanticism.

kAzE
05-17-2018, 07:25 PM
I am not sure why you think Kyrie doesn’t want to be the man. But, it doesn’t matter I guess because it is all conjecture on both our parts.

I will say that it is unfair to talk about LeBron’s contract structure when pretty much everyone takes top dollar. Brady is in a pretty specific circumstance in that his wife might have made even more money than him. It is much easier to take less when you marry as wealthy as Brady did. Also, LeBron DID take less when he was in Miami (Wade made more money than LeBron there). So I don’t blame him for saying “forget that” now.

And with respect to your comparison to Jordan, Jordan DID actually hold things over the Bulls in the first chance he got. The problem is that the money wasn’t as good when he was young. He signed a $25 million deal in 1988... for 8 years. That contract (signed before he was established as best in the league) gave him financial security at a time when the NBA was still developing into the lucrative business it is today. But it also prevented him from playing Geppetto until much later in his career. Once he became a free agent again, he did in fact sign one-year deals. And he strongarmed the organization into paying the guys he specifically wanted or else he would retire. Twice, the Bulls complied. When they were done with Phil, Jordan retired. So I don’t think it is appropriate to call out LeBron relative to Jordan on this. Because Jordan would have done the exact same thing had he had the opportunity. And the proof is in the fact that he did just that at the first real chance he got.

As for those facts you have read about Russell, I suspect they are part fact and part romanticism.

Okay, those are some fair points.

On the Kyrie subject, I made a couple of edits in my original post to include some examples of why I don't think he cares about being the "man." First, Horford is the actual leader of the team, and 2nd, Tatum is going to eventually be the best player. I don't think either of those guys bothers Kyrie. LeBron was the problem. Playing with LeBron is not easy. Brian Windhorst (who will eventually write LeBron's biography) has said it many times.

As for Wilt and Russell, it's never going to be settled. There will always be Wilt people and Russell people. I'm not sure what part of what I posted you consider romanticized, but by all accounts, these things are true. If Russell had better teammates, it's mostly likely because guys wanted to play with him. Is that his fault? Who wants to play with a guy who takes 50 shots a game? That fact stands that Russell has 11 rings to Wilt's 2 (only 1 of which happened while Russell was in the league). Were his teammates that much better than Wilt's? It's beyond insanity to repeat the same mistakes 11 times. Wilt had plenty of time to try to get better teammates around him, even switching teams a few times. If he was truly the best player in the league, he should have been able to overcome Russell more than the 1 time. At some point, you've got to consider that those 11 rings had something to do with Russell's superiority in some way over Wilt.

As for Jordan, you got me there. I didn't know about his 1 year contracts. But for all the strongarming going on between those 2 guys, at least Jordan made the right moves. LeBron destroyed his own chances to beat the Warriors by overpaying JR Smith and Tristan Thompson. As atrocious of a GM as Jordan has been with the Hornets/Bobcats, he's still a WAY better GM than LeBron. LeBron's got some painful years ahead of his as a basketball executive (which he clearly intends to become after retirement).

And for the record, I LOVE debates like this. This thread is amazing.

Indoor66
05-17-2018, 07:38 PM
As for Wilt and Russell, it's never going to be settled. There will always be Wilt people and Russell people. I'm not sure what part of what I posted you consider romanticized, but by all accounts, these things are true. If Russell had better teammates, it's mostly likely because guys wanted to play with him. Is that his fault? Who wants to play with a guy who takes 50 shots a game? That fact stands that Russell has 11 rings to Wilt's 2 (only 1 of which happened while Russell was in the league). Were his teammates that much better than Wilt's? It's beyond insanity to repeat the same mistakes 11 times. Wilt had plenty of time to try to get better teammates around him, even switching teams a few times. If he was truly the best player in the league, he should have been able to overcome Russell. At some point, you've got to consider that those 11 rings had something to do with Russell's superiority in some way over Wilt.

when Wilt and Russell played there was no player movement without a trade. No free agency did not exist. You did not pick your teammates.

Wilt was a very nice, gentle man. He was very competetive, as was Russell. That said, they were friends and often had dinner in each others home when they played. It was a different era of interpersonal relationships and is hard to understand without a longer frame of reference than you appear to have.

CDu
05-17-2018, 07:48 PM
Okay, those are some fair points.

On the Kyrie subject, I made a couple of edits in my original post to include some examples of why I don't think he cares about being the "man." First, Horford is the actual leader of the team, and 2nd, Tatum is going to eventually be the best player. I don't think either of those guys bothers Kyrie. LeBron was the problem. Playing with LeBron is not easy. Brian Windhorst (who will eventually write LeBron's biography) has said it many times.

As for Wilt and Russell, it's never going to be settled. There will always be Wilt people and Russell people. I'm not sure what part of what I posted you consider romanticized, but by all accounts, these things are true. If Russell had better teammates, it's mostly likely because guys wanted to play with him. Is that his fault? Who wants to play with a guy who takes 50 shots a game? That fact stands that Russell has 11 rings to Wilt's 2 (only 1 of which happened while Russell was in the league). Were his teammates that much better than Wilt's? It's beyond insanity to repeat the same mistakes 11 times. Wilt had plenty of time to try to get better teammates around him, even switching teams a few times. If he was truly the best player in the league, he should have been able to overcome Russell more than the 1 time. At some point, you've got to consider that those 11 rings had something to do with Russell's superiority in some way over Wilt.

As for Jordan, you got me there. I didn't know about his 1 year contracts. But for all the strongarming going on between those 2 guys, at least Jordan made the right moves. LeBron destroyed his own chances to beat the Warriors by overpaying JR Smith and Tristan Thompson. As atrocious of a GM as Jordan has been with the Hornets/Bobcats, he's still a WAY better GM than LeBron. LeBron's got some painful years ahead of his as a basketball executive (which he clearly intends to become after retirement).

And for the record, I LOVE debates like this. This thread is amazing.

Agree that the GOAT debate won’t be settled. But I feel the need to clarify a point on an argument that isn’t relevant. Players didn’t choose where they played in the NBA of the 50s and 60s (or even the 70s). Free agency really didn’t exist in the NBA until the late-80s. So Russell having better teammates than Wilt would have had nothing to do with players preferring to play with Russell. It had everything to do with them having been drafted or traded for by Auerbach. Conversely, Wilt didn’t get to try to find the teammates to beat Russell. He was limited to the team that drafted him and the teams that traded for him.

kAzE
05-17-2018, 07:51 PM
Wilt was a very nice, gentle man.

What are you talking about? Wilt was a notoriously bad teammate. He also continually got coaches fired, Boogie Cousins style. Franklin Mieuli, the owner of San Francisco Warriors at the time they traded Wilt was quoted saying "Chamberlain is not an easy man to love [and] the fans in San Francisco never learned to love him. Wilt is easy to hate [...] people came to see him lose."

He's even the starting center of the of the All-Time Terrible Teammate Team. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/863684-nba-all-terrible-teammate-team#slide5)


Players didn’t choose where they played in the NBA of the 50s and 60s (or even the 70s). Free agency really didn’t exist in the NBA until the late-80s. So Russell having better teammates than Wilt would have had nothing to do with players preferring to play with Russell. It had everything to do with them having been drafted or traded for by Auerbach. Conversely, Wilt didn’t get to try to find the teammates to beat Russell. He was limited to the team that drafted him and the teams that traded for him.

Yep, I totally forgot about that . . . I shouldn't have posted that argument. I knew that . . .

CDu
05-17-2018, 07:59 PM
What are you talking about? Wilt was a notoriously bad teammate. He also continually got coaches fired, Boogie Cousins style. Franklin Mieuli, the owner of San Francisco Warriors at the time they traded Wilt was quoted saying "Chamberlain is not an easy man to love [and] the fans in San Francisco never learned to love him. Wilt is easy to hate [...] people came to see him lose."

He's even the starting center of the of the All-Time Terrible Teammate Team. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/863684-nba-all-terrible-teammate-team#slide5)



Yep, I totally forgot about that . . . I shouldn't have posted that argument. I knew that . . .

To be fair, that quote is talking about the Warriors’ fans, not the players. I think folks who didn’t know him could find reason to cheer against him out of jealousy, much like they did Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, and even LeBron.

And that “All Terrible Teammate” list is one dude’s opinion, and the evidence he presented was a quote... from another blog post he himself made.

22JumpShots
05-17-2018, 08:28 PM
Yao. Ming. :p

skysdad
05-17-2018, 09:12 PM
Yao. Ming. :p

As far as Wilt vs. Shaq goes Wilt would have worn him out. If Shaq would have tried his signature move by backing his defender in and getting so close to the basket he would dunk the ball. With Wilt it would be like moving a brick wall . In my opinion there are at least 5 or 6 bette rcenters who have played the game.

ChillinDuke
05-17-2018, 11:02 PM
From what I know on the subject, Wilt Chamberlain is the single most remarkable basketball player to have ever played. And I don't believe it's really all that close.

And yes, I picked my words with intention.

- Chillin

JasonEvans
05-17-2018, 11:33 PM
A) Conan the Destroy is the greatest movie of all time
B) Wilt was in Conan the Destroyer
C) Therefore, Wilt must be the best center of all time

See, it is really simple, folks.

https://steemitimages.com/DQma9nHn9aRdkANJ66Rh94M58njcyKnNxjLd4n4NcNGiKD9/e05e4039ed9257c9a3d91f6567c7e338.jpg

brevity
05-18-2018, 01:23 AM
A) Conan the Destroy is the greatest movie of all time
B) Wilt was in Conan the Destroyer
C) Therefore, Wilt must be the best center of all time

See, it is really simple, folks.

Counterpoint:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ2GQgs0MR4

Actually, we can do this strictly by movie metrics.

Airplane! (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1980): Metacritic 78, Rotten Tomatoes 97, IMDb 7.8/10
Conan the Destroyer (Wilt Chamberlain, 1984): Metacritic 53, Rotten Tomatoes 26, IMDb 5.9/10
Blue Chips (Shaquille O'Neal, 1994): Metacritic 54, Rotten Tomatoes 37, IMDb 6.1/10
Space Jam (Michael Jordan, 1996): Metacritic 59, Rotten Tomatoes 38, IMDb 6.3/10
Trainwreck (LeBron James, 2015): Metacritic 75, Rotten Tomatoes 86, IMDb 6.2/10

Troublemaker
05-18-2018, 07:24 AM
Actually, we can do this strictly by movie metrics.

Airplane! (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1980): Metacritic 78, Rotten Tomatoes 97, IMDb 7.8/10
Conan the Destroyer (Wilt Chamberlain, 1984): Metacritic 53, Rotten Tomatoes 26, IMDb 5.9/10
Blue Chips (Shaquille O'Neal, 1994): Metacritic 54, Rotten Tomatoes 37, IMDb 6.1/10
Space Jam (Michael Jordan, 1996): Metacritic 59, Rotten Tomatoes 38, IMDb 6.3/10
Trainwreck (LeBron James, 2015): Metacritic 75, Rotten Tomatoes 86, IMDb 6.2/10

Loved the Airplane! clip. My favorite Kareem moment on film was when he was a credible Final Boss for Bruce Lee to fight in Game of Death.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ic2k2P_FG0

lotusland
05-18-2018, 07:53 AM
Loved the Airplane! clip. My favorite Kareem moment on film was when he was a credible Final Boss for Bruce Lee to fight in Game of Death.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ic2k2P_FG0

Kareem squandered a huge advantage. He should have employed the Quart of Blood technique for the win.

HereBeforeCoachK
05-18-2018, 09:07 AM
.... Wilt Chamberlain is the single most remarkable basketball player to have ever played. And I don't believe it's really all that close.

And yes, I picked my words with intention.

- Chillin

And you picked them very well...."most remarkable" is a great way to put it. It may not settle "the greatest" argument per se, but hard to argue against him being the most remarkable.

Maybe second on "the remarkable" list would be Pistol Pete, who we found out only had about half an operating heart during his entire career....

Acymetric
05-18-2018, 09:19 AM
Counterpoint:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ2GQgs0MR4

Actually, we can do this strictly by movie metrics.

Airplane! (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1980): Metacritic 78, Rotten Tomatoes 97, IMDb 7.8/10
Conan the Destroyer (Wilt Chamberlain, 1984): Metacritic 53, Rotten Tomatoes 26, IMDb 5.9/10
Blue Chips (Shaquille O'Neal, 1994): Metacritic 54, Rotten Tomatoes 37, IMDb 6.1/10
Space Jam (Michael Jordan, 1996): Metacritic 59, Rotten Tomatoes 38, IMDb 6.3/10
Trainwreck (LeBron James, 2015): Metacritic 75, Rotten Tomatoes 86, IMDb 6.2/10

Space Jam has a 38 on Rotten Tomatoes? Must be a lot of people out there that felt personally wronged by bugs bunny or something. Looking at the reviews...is it normal for movie reviewers to review the quality of kids movies as though they were intended for adults?

I also would have been tempted to use Kazaam for Shaq...although your choice is the more fair one ratings wise. I do feel reasonably confident that Kareem had the best acting career of this group overall (lots of great cameos in movies and tv shows beyond airplane, no duds that I can recall).

JasonEvans
05-18-2018, 09:41 AM
I do feel reasonably confident that Kareem had the best acting career of this group overall (lots of great cameos in movies and tv shows beyond airplane, no duds that I can recall).

Yeah, but Kareem almost always plays himself in movies/TV. Same with Shaq and Jordan and Lebron, who largely just play basketball players in their acting gigs (other than Shaq in Kazaam, which is one of the worst movies ever made, 6% on Rotten Tomatoes) Wilt played a totally different character when he was a warrior in Conan. That takes range!

-Jason "that said, Kareem's 'tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes' may be the best NBA to screen moment ever!!" Evans

NSDukeFan
05-18-2018, 09:44 AM
Yeah, but Kareem almost always plays himself in movies/TV. Same with Shaq and Jordan and Lebron, who largely just play basketball players in their acting gigs (other than Shaq in Kazaam, which is one of the worst movies ever made, 6% on Rotten Tomatoes) Wilt played a totally different character when he was a warrior in Conan. That takes range!

-Jason "that said, Kareem's 'tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes' may be the best NBA to screen moment ever!!" Evans

That is a great line.

JasonEvans
05-18-2018, 09:44 AM
The state of Wisconsin got some of the Airplane crew back together recently for a TV ad. Kareem does have range!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcveuhq2_oY

sagegrouse
05-18-2018, 11:22 AM
And you picked them very well..."most remarkable" is a great way to put it. It may not settle "the greatest" argument per se, but hard to argue against him being the most remarkable.

Maybe second on "the remarkable" list would be Pistol Pete, who we found out only had about half an operating heart during his entire career...

If there is a ranking of the most remarkable ATHLETES in history, I believe Wilt is high on the list for his size, angularity, muscularity, and proficiency in multiple athletic endeavors.

Bill Russell, who had a radio show in LA for years, has said a lot about Wilt. One thing I remember, something like: "We used to elbow, push, kick and do everything to Wilt. He never hit back. He had the patience of a lamb."

kAzE
05-18-2018, 11:27 AM
From what I know on the subject, Wilt Chamberlain is the single most remarkable basketball player to have ever played. And I don't believe it's really all that close.

And yes, I picked my words with intention.

- Chillin

I definitely would not argue against that. But I would say that it is close between Wilt and LeBron. IMO, going by pure talent, Wilt and LeBron are #1 and #1A. LeBron honestly is that impressive of an athlete, IMO. We would be lucky to see another guy in our lifetimes with the combo of size, strength, speed, skill, longevity that LeBron has.

sagegrouse
05-18-2018, 11:56 AM
If there is a ranking of the most remarkable ATHLETES in history, I believe Wilt is high on the list for his size, angularity, muscularity, and proficiency in multiple athletic endeavors.

Bill Russell, who had a radio show in LA for years, has said a lot about Wilt. One thing I remember, something like: "We used to elbow, push, kick and do everything to Wilt. He never hit back. He had the patience of a lamb."

On second thought, Russell actually described Wilt as "gentle as a lamb" in not responding to felonious assaults by other players.

ncexnyc
05-18-2018, 11:57 AM
That's a really awesome photo posted by Jason and it just goes to show what a physical specimen Wilt truly was. That movie came out in 1984, eleven years after Wilt's final season in the NBA and he was still ripped. Muscle wise, most people look puny when in a photo with Arnold, but not Wilt.

HereBeforeCoachK
05-18-2018, 01:09 PM
The state of Wisconsin got some of the Airplane crew back together recently for a TV ad. Kareem does have range!


That is a wonderful idea - that they turned into a mediocre commercial.

WV_Iron_Duke
05-19-2018, 03:47 PM
One of Wilt's athletic accomplishments in high school was running a sub 50 second 440 . His offensive resembled Shaq. Not much finesse but plenty of strength.

dukeinla
05-21-2018, 12:58 AM
Just a couple of more points about Kareem:

In 3 years of high school ball he lost once ( to a team with Pat Riley)

He went to UCLA when freshman were not allowed to play varsity ball. His freshman team played the UCLA upperclassman (the defending national champions) and crushed them

In 3 years at UCLA he only lost once- to Houston with Elvin Hayes- and UCLA crushed them in the rematch.

His sky hook was the most unstoppable weapon in basketball history.

In a prior post it was mentioned that the lane was widened because of Wilt- The rules were changed to ban dunking to stop Kareem- and all that accomplished was to make Kareem a more complete offensive player.

He was the anchor of the showtime lakers- arguably one of the best teams in NBA history- and was the leading scorer in NBA history.

How can you dispute that resume?

porkpa
05-21-2018, 06:03 AM
No comparison. When he was of the mindset, Wilt wasn't just better than Shaq. He was better than anybody whoever played the game and not by just a little bit either.
The operative phrase is "of the mindset".
Wilt, as great as he was, did not always play at his best, or often near it. If he had the competitive nature of MJ or Lebron, there would be nobody else in the discussion.
H did have an Achilles hel though. As bad a foul shooter as Shaq was, Wilt was probably worse.

WV_Iron_Duke
05-21-2018, 11:36 AM
Kareem's autobiography mentions his relationship with Wilt .When Kareem was still a teenager Wilt took him under his wing. The funniest incident in the book was when Kareem tried to hit on one of Wilt's girlfriends:)

BD80
05-21-2018, 12:05 PM
Kareem's autobiography mentions his relationship with Wilt .When Kareem was still a teenager Wilt took him under his wing. The funniest incident in the book was when Kareem tried to hit on one of Wilt's girlfriends:)

How in the world is someone to know which dozen or two of the hundreds of women around Wilt were his "girlfriends?"

With Wilt, it is likely that he considered any female in the same zip code to be one of his girlfriends.

HereBeforeCoachK
05-21-2018, 12:43 PM
The funniest incident in the book was when Kareem tried to hit on one of Wilt's girlfriends:)

But in fairness, where the heck could Kareem go to hit on a non Wilt girl friend?

Devilwin
05-21-2018, 01:03 PM
Wilt always had trouble against Bill, who was an incredible defender, and the only guy that had a clue as to slowing Wilt down.
As for pure basketball talent, it's hard not to make an argument for Pistol Pete Maravich as one of the all time greats..

Indoor66
05-21-2018, 02:04 PM
Wilt always had trouble against Bill, who was an incredible defender, and the only guy that had a clue as to slowing Wilt down.
As for pure basketball talent, it's hard not to make an argument for Pistol Pete Maravich as one of the all time greats..

I don't think the NBA statistics agree with your premise. (http://nbastatslab.com/index.php/2017/09/30/chamberlain-russell-player-comparison/)

sagegrouse
05-21-2018, 02:21 PM
Wilt always had trouble against Bill, who was an incredible defender, and the only guy that had a clue as to slowing Wilt down.
As for pure basketball talent, it's hard not to make an argument for Pistol Pete Maravich as one of the all time greats..


Pistol Pete in the NBA? Not in the top 100 players. Check out his stats -- he is compared to 5-10 Michael Adams and UNC's Ty Lawson.

Devilwin
05-21-2018, 03:43 PM
Fact is, Russell gave Wilt fits, but, I never said he was the better player, he wasn't. Nobody was better at the center than Wilt. But he made Wilt work for everything, no one else did. Chamberlain was the most dominant big man ever.

MartyClark
05-21-2018, 04:00 PM
Pistol Pete in the NBA? Not in the top 100 players. Check out his stats -- he is compared to 5-10 Michael Adams and UNC's Ty Lawson.

Sage, I don't doubt your stats based conclusion.

Pete was a special guy though, especially as a college player.

I can still remember watching an LSU-Kentucky game in the late 1960's, not many games broadcast in those days so it was special, where Pete went off for a huge number of points. Great fun.

Parenthetically, Dan Issel goes to my church in suburban Denver. It's a big church and I don't really know him but I asked him if he remembered that game and he did. Even more parenthetically, Dan Issel is a pretty cool guy. I'd love to have a beer with him and hear his Kentucky and Adolph Rupp stories.

HereBeforeCoachK
05-21-2018, 05:27 PM
Pistol Pete in the NBA? Not in the top 100 players. Check out his stats -- he is compared to 5-10 Michael Adams and UNC's Ty Lawson.

Not sure I understand the Adams and Lawson reference.....but interesting, Pistol finished with a career 3 point FG average of .667. Of course, they only had the three for his last three years, and he took about 12 or 15 a season is all....

sagegrouse
05-21-2018, 05:33 PM
Not sure I understand the Adams and Lawson reference....but interesting, Pistol finished with a career 3 point FG average of .667. Of course, they only had the three for his last three years, and he took about 12 or 15 a season is all...

If you go to the stats site (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/maravpe01.html) for Maravich and scroll wa-a-a-a-y down to the bottom, it shows "Similarity Profiles" -- players with comparable careers in "win shares" -- not just level but also shape. List includes Adams, Norm Van Lier, Latrell Sprewell, Ty Lawson, Brad Davis, Tom Gola and Jerry Stone.

JasonEvans
05-22-2018, 09:20 AM
If you go to the stats site (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/maravpe01.html) for Maravich and scroll wa-a-a-a-y down to the bottom, it shows "Similarity Profiles" -- players with comparable careers in "win shares" -- not just level but also shape. List includes Adams, Norm Van Lier, Latrell Sprewell, Ty Lawson, Brad Davis, Tom Gola and Jerry Stone.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the Basketball Reference similarity scores and they are often pretty darn flawed. Comparing Maravich (a shooter/scorer who averaged 24+ ppg in his career) to Ty Lawson (a PG who averaged 12.7ppg in his career and never had a season where he scored even 18 ppg) is just really inaccurate. I'm not sure what metrics Basketball Ref is using, but those comparisons make no sense.

Pistol Pete was a 5 time all-star and made the All-NBA first team twice (with 2 more 2nd team All-NBA awards). Lawson and Adams have 1 all-star game combined (Adams did it one year in Denver) and never came close to sniffing an All-NBA team.

You can certainly allege that Pistol Pete was not one of the top 100 players in league history (though I see some solid arguments against that notion), but saying he is little more than Ty Lawson and Michael Adams really hurts your credibility as a knowledgeable basketball fan.

kAzE
05-22-2018, 10:20 AM
Yeah, I'm familiar with the Basketball Reference similarity scores and they are often pretty darn flawed. Comparing Maravich (a shooter/scorer who averaged 24+ ppg in his career) to Ty Lawson (a PG who averaged 12.7ppg in his career and never had a season where he scored even 18 ppg) is just really inaccurate. I'm not sure what metrics Basketball Ref is using, but those comparisons make no sense.

Pistol Pete was a 5 time all-star and made the All-NBA first team twice (with 2 more 2nd team All-NBA awards). Lawson and Adams have 1 all-star game combined (Adams did it one year in Denver) and never came close to sniffing an All-NBA team.

You can certainly allege that Pistol Pete was not one of the top 100 players in league history (though I see some solid arguments against that notion), but saying he is little more than Ty Lawson and Michael Adams really hurts your credibility as a knowledgeable basketball fan.

Also, consider that he's the all-time leading scorer in division 1 basketball history (3,667 points in just 83 games, 44.2 points per game), despite not playing his freshman year (NCAA rules), not having a 3 point line, and not having a shot clock.

The guy was clearly a beast. He was forced to retire due to injuries just 11 years into his NBA career, but he's got a rock solid case for top 100 all-time.

sagegrouse
05-22-2018, 03:09 PM
Yeah, I'm familiar with the Basketball Reference similarity scores and they are often pretty darn flawed. Comparing Maravich (a shooter/scorer who averaged 24+ ppg in his career) to Ty Lawson (a PG who averaged 12.7ppg in his career and never had a season where he scored even 18 ppg) is just really inaccurate. I'm not sure what metrics Basketball Ref is using, but those comparisons make no sense.

Pistol Pete was a 5 time all-star and made the All-NBA first team twice (with 2 more 2nd team All-NBA awards). Lawson and Adams have 1 all-star game combined (Adams did it one year in Denver) and never came close to sniffing an All-NBA team.

You can certainly allege that Pistol Pete was not one of the top 100 players in league history (though I see some solid arguments against that notion), but saying he is little more than Ty Lawson and Michael Adams really hurts your credibility as a knowledgeable basketball fan.

[He says, as he pulls the arrow out of his heart:] I put the Similarity Scores in as a joke -- because it listed Ty Lawson, Michael Adams (whom I generally admired), and Latrell Sprewell (Coach Carlesimo says "Hi") as comparables to Pete.

As "one of the greatest of all time," I think Pistol Pete is a joke. His All-NBA plaudits are impressive, but his career was relatively short, and his teams never won anything. If he had conquered his inner demons, it might have been different. He passed away at age 40 with a heart damaged by his lifestyle.

kAzE
05-22-2018, 03:11 PM
[He says, as he pulls the arrow out of his heart:] I put the Similarity Scores in as a joke -- because it listed Ty Lawson, Michael Adams (whom I generally admired), and Latrell Sprewell (Coach Carlesimo says "Hi") as comparables to Pete.

As "one of the greatest of all time," I think Pistol Pete is a joke. His All-NBA plaudits are impressive, but his career was relatively short, and his teams never won anything. If he had conquered his inner demons, it might have been different. He passed away at age 40 with a heart damaged by his lifestyle.

Huh? I'm no Pistol Pete expert, but wasn't it because he was born with a rare heart defect? I don't think it was lifestyle related.

Here's the relevant line from his wikipedia page:


An autopsy revealed the cause of death to be a rare congenital defect; he had been born with a missing left coronary artery, a vessel that supplies blood to the muscle fibers of the heart. His right coronary artery was grossly enlarged and had been compensating for the defect.

sagegrouse
05-22-2018, 03:20 PM
Huh? I'm no Pistol Pete expert, but wasn't it because he was born with a rare heart defect? I don't think it was lifestyle related.

Here's the relevant line from his wikipedia page:

Thanks and apologies to the Maravich clan.

devildeac
05-22-2018, 03:26 PM
Huh? I'm no Pistol Pete expert, but wasn't it because he was born with a rare heart defect? I don't think it was lifestyle related.

Here's the relevant line from his wikipedia page:

That's even different than what I recall from when he died and details about his death were released, having heard that his left main coronary artery had an anomalous origin from his right coronary artery instead of from his aorta. He had sudden cardiac death while playing in/resting during a pick-up game around age 40. With either condition, it's still amazing he was able to compete as such an elite level of play.

rsvman
05-22-2018, 04:28 PM
No comparison. When he was of the mindset, Wilt wasn't just better than Shaq. He was better than anybody whoever played the game and not by just a little bit either.
The operative phrase is "of the mindset".
Wilt, as great as he was, did not always play at his best, or often near it. If he had the competitive nature of MJ or Lebron, there would be nobody else in the discussion.
H did have an Achilles hel though. As bad a foul shooter as Shaq was, Wilt was probably worse.

There is an apocryphal story that the rule that the shooter has to stay behind the free throw line originated because Wilt, with his length and incredibly jumping skill, was able to essentially turn a free throw into a finger-roll layup. I don't doubt that Wilt could do that, but I don't know whether that's why they changed the rule.

HereBeforeCoachK
05-22-2018, 05:05 PM
That's even different than what I recall from when he died and details about his death were released, having heard that his left main coronary artery had an anomalous origin from his right coronary artery instead of from his aorta. He had sudden cardiac death while playing in/resting during a pick-up game around age 40. With either condition, it's still amazing he was able to compete as such an elite level of play.

Yes, playing pick up games at Focus on the Family with their staff and Dr. James Dobson. As I recall, and this may not be accurate, his heart problems were diagnosed after his career was over, and people were astounded he could play at the level he did with that defect. I'm not really sure whether it was the same issue the caused his death or not.

It was a poignant and sad day.

rsvman
05-22-2018, 05:25 PM
Maravich in college was other-worldly.

I think one year he average over 40 a game, and that was before the 3-point line. His dribbling and passing skills were way ahead of his time. Put me down as a HUGE Maravich fan (but also remember that I am a college basketball junkie and only occasional NBA watcher).

slower
05-22-2018, 05:30 PM
Maravich in college was other-worldly.

I think one year he average over 40 a game...

He averaged over 40 EVERY year in college.

phaedrus
05-22-2018, 05:41 PM
As "one of the greatest of all time," I think Pistol Pete is a joke. His All-NBA plaudits are impressive, but his career was relatively short, and his teams never won anything.

Probably safe to say that any comparisons of Maravich to the very greatest of all-time - Wilt, Kareem, MJ, etc. - can be dismissed as a "joke." And because of his college scoring exploits, such comparisons are occasionally made.

But saying he is not even near the top 100 is quite another thing. That's a group far from Lebron, Russell, and Magic, and much closer to, let's say, Reggie Miller, Gail Goodrich, Joe Dumars, or Shareef Abdur-Rahim, to pick some names more or less at random. In the context of era, Maravich is certainly in the conversation for top 100, perhaps easily within that group.

kAzE
05-22-2018, 05:47 PM
Maravich in college was other-worldly.

I think one year he average over 40 a game, and that was before the 3-point line. His dribbling and passing skills were way ahead of his time. Put me down as a HUGE Maravich fan (but also remember that I am a college basketball junkie and only occasional NBA watcher).

His career average at LSU was 44.2. He was by far the most prolific scorer in the history of the NCAA. The next highest career scoring average in NCAA history was posted by Oscar Robertson, who scored "only" 33.8 per game.

rasputin
05-22-2018, 05:53 PM
His career average at LSU was 44.2. He was by far the most prolific scorer in the history of the NCAA. The next highest career scoring average in NCAA history was posted by Oscar Robertson, who scored "just" 33.8 per game.

When I was a 12-year-old on the playgrounds in Greensboro, kids would dribble and shoot and say "I'm Pistol Pete" the way they would LeBron today. This in spite of the fact that most of them were Cheaters fans. Granted, that there was an ACC connection to Pistol Pete (his dad had coached at State), but it was exceptional for North Carolina-centric kids to be modeling an LSU player.

JWA71
05-28-2018, 07:34 AM
Check it out:

Wilt vs Bill - Statistics (http://Wilt vs Bill - Statistics)

Wilt vs Bill - Head to Head (http://nbastatslab.com/index.php/2017/09/30/chamberlain-russell-player-comparison/)

Wilt vs Bill - Stats Disussion (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/450703-the-greatest-debate-in-nba-history-wilt-the-stilt-or-bill-russell#slide0)

Wilt vs Bill - Youtube Confrontations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UsLn9IjEhc)

Bill vs Wilt - Bill's Discussion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8r-WSWJM0M)

Wilt, Bill, Jordan - Who was greatest? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46RutBTe-as)

Wilt = Superman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvdsi6gLl8)

If you didn't watch the NBA in the '60 on Sunday afternoon, then you don't know what you're missing. The confrontation between Russell and Chamberlain was epic. Unfortunately, there's little video remaining from the period to show continuously on ESPN, so most fans today are unaware of how Russel played the game. In the youtube "Wilt, Bill, Jordan," Wilt provides a simple and convincing explanation for why Russell was the greatest.