Wendell Carter's Mother Is Angry

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm with dudog here. Part of the DBR fan code is that we have to watch our tones and "act" reasonably polite.

But every camel has that straw. See ya Mrs. Carter. Have fun on the Miracle Mile.

The comparison to the most obnoxious sports father in generations is beyond the pale (I bet Levar has already trademarked that, in fact).

You may not agree with Mrs. Carter, but she has a right to speak her mind. Her experience is far flung from any of ours, and she isn't an idiot. Maybe it's some sort of motivation or branding, or sour grapes, but maybe - just maybe - she is sharing her authentic experience. Had Bagley not reclassified late in the summer, would Carter have had more touches and been able to showcase his skills better? That's without debate. Is that the objective of any K team? Of course not.

As a mother is she entitled to have her opinion and to share that opinion? Yes.

Fans and posters calling her out and comparing her to hideous examples like Levar just because she is stating her truth feels wrong to me. Wendell chose Duke, was by all accounts a stand up human being and the most academically inclined OAD we have ever had.

On this board, we who have little to no grounds to do so lambast Coach K for defensive schemes, end of game decisions, time outs, and all manner of other decisions.

Semi Ojeleye's parents had a bad experience at Duke. The Carter parents feel Wendell got a raw deal from Duke and the NCAA.

While I would trade both my arms to get a chance to play for K at Duke, pretending that every player has a blissful experience is pretty naive.

I got blasted on this board last time I attempted to defend Mrs Carter's choice of words, so I won't get a lot of support this time either.

Salesforce is the 2018 Best Company to Work for on Forbes. Do you think every employee has nothing but positive things to say?

[DukieInKansas]

Given the history of Duke basketball and the success Coach K has had here, it seems to me that it is given that there will be an extraordinary amount of talent on the team in any given year. Therefore, no matter how good a player is, there will be competition and a shifting of roles on the team to make the best team possible. It shouldn't be a surprise that a player doesn't get to do what he wants, when he wants it. There is a system to a team and the players have to be a part of the system. I don't follow the NBA that closely, but isn't the team going to come first there as well? You bring your skills and fit them into the team in the best way possible. You may have to rely on one skill over others - and it might not be your first choice of skills to exhibit.

I find it hard to believe that working within a system was unexpected when Wendell Carter signed his letter of intent to play at Duke.

[flyingdutchdevil]

The comparison to the most obnoxious sports father in generations is beyond the pale (I bet Levar has already trademarked that, in fact).

You may not agree with Mrs. Carter, but she has a right to speak her mind. Her experience is far flung from any of ours, and she isn't an idiot. Maybe it's some sort of motivation or branding, or sour grapes, but maybe - just maybe - she is sharing her authentic experience. Had Bagley not reclassified late in the summer, would Carter have had more touches and been able to showcase his skills better? That's without debate. Is that the objective of any K team? Of course not.

As a mother is she entitled to have her opinion and to share that opinion? Yes.

Fans and posters calling her out and comparing her to hideous examples like Levar just because she is stating her truth feels wrong to me. Wendell chose Duke, was by all accounts a stand up human being and the most academically inclined OAD we have ever had.

On this board, we who have little to no grounds to do so lambast Coach K for defensive schemes, end of game decisions, time outs, and all manner of other decisions.

Semi Ojeleye's parents had a bad experience at Duke. The Carter parents feel Wendell got a raw deal from Duke and the NCAA.

While I would trade both my arms to get a chance to play for K at Duke, pretending that every player has a blissful experience is pretty naive.

I got blasted on this board last time I attempted to defend Mrs Carter's choice of words, so I won't get a lot of support this time either.

Salesforce is the 2018 Best Company to Work for on Forbes. Do you think every employee has nothing but positive things to say?

Love this post. I love Duke basketball. I think Coach K is a legend. I've spent 6 years at Duke. Durham is the fabulous place to live. I think DBR is an educated, engaged community.

But folks around here treat Coach K and our players like they are their own kids. In other words, any criticism towards Coach K or Duke basketball is completely wrong, unwarranted, and you should be sent to the 7th layer of hell for saying so. Yet, when a mother speaks up about her real own kid, folks flip out. But I get it. It's fanhood. It's irrationale.

I don't like what Mrs. Carter says, but I don't think she's wrong nor do I think she should remain silent. Due to the immense talent on last year's team in addition to Bagley being an incredible talent, I would argue that no player other than Bagley showed their true potential (IMO, Grayson's performance this year didn't warrant the 21nd pick in the draft. But Grayson clearly has more potential than what he showed). Carter most certainly had more to show but didn't or couldn't due to the system Coach K played.

[Bluedog]

Wendell [...] was by all accounts [...] the most academically inclined OAD we have ever had.

Uh, actually, Wendell did not make the All-ACC academic team, but who did? His fellow OAD teammate, Marvin.

Bagley and Grayson were the only All-ACC Academic selections from Duke this past year. Grayson made it all four years.

(I understand you made that statement because he considered committing to Harvard, but I'm looking at actual results.) There are many other top recruits at Duke that could have gone to Harvard as well if they chose to do so. Harvard certainly would welcome then. Now, if one thinks Duke is exploitive, think what Wendell Carter's mother would think about Harvard as they don't give their athletes scholarships at all. The horror! And the amount of money poured into the facilities and staff -- for the benefit of the players and the program -- cannot compare to Duke's. I realize many basketball players get full rides anyways because of the generous financial aid offered by Harvard, but the athletes aren't given additional scholarships than they would as a "normal" student although they certainly get free stuff (gear, etc.).

I, for one, think the statements are ridiculous and Wendell has been given an amazing opportunity to play a sport for a living and is a multi-millionaire guaranteed. He certainly has worked hard and has immense talent, so I'm not taking that away from him, but his "hardships" pale into comparison to many other hard-working individuals in the world and aren't even close to the same scale as some of the comparisons she has made. With all that said, I'm certainly cheering for Wendell and agree that he seems like a smart motivated guy who is a team player. I just wish people would be more grateful in life (like Bagley has stated...) than complain about everything, especially for those that have been given AMAZING opportunities to make an insane sum of money to live their dream.

[ncexnyc]

Is everyone entitled to their opinion? I'm sure we'd all agree that, yes they are. However, I'm also sure we'd all agree that some opinions are more valid than others. Giving someone a soapbox and the opportunity to speak via the media doesn't make them an expert nor does it mean their opinion is an unbiased one.

Today's media seems more interested in clickbait headlines than a fleshed out story filled with facts and figures. I'll chalk this up to that unfortunate trend.

I'm also sure that when someone fires what can best be described as a shot across your bow or in this case the bow of something you love, such as Duke basketball you'd be naïve to think you're not going to get a response.

[phaedrus]

For a center like Wendell that doesn't have #1 overall talent (e.g. Towns, Embiid) or rare physical dimensions (e.g. Gobert), I think solid starter is roughly his ceiling in the modern NBA. And therefore, yes, he'll be a role player. Hopefully a valued one that contenders want on their team.

"Solid starter" is a very reasonable and realistic goal for Wendell, but if by "ceiling" you mean something like absolute best-case scenario, that seems a bit pessimistic.

Recent All-Star big men who were neither #1 talents nor had rare physical dimensions include Al Horford, Deandre Jordan, Andre Drummond, Marc Gasol, Paul Millsap, Draymond Green, Demarcus Cousins, Joakim Noah, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, and LaMarcus Aldridge.

Wendell is not exactly like any of them and pretty distant from some of them. But if we're talking about ceiling, I think these examples show that something more than solid starter is conceivable. He has a long way to go first, of course.

[weezie]

Is everyone entitled to their opinion?

My dad was a Marine pilot. He used to say, "Everyone in this household is entitled to my opinion."

I miss him...

[Indoor66]

My dad was a Marine pilot. He used to say, "Everyone in this household is entitled to my opinion."

I miss him...

Semper Fi

[devildeac]

My dad was a Marine pilot. He used to say, "Everyone in this household is entitled to my opinion."

I miss him...

Variant/corollary:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

:o:rolleyes:

[luvdahops]

"Solid starter" is a very reasonable and realistic goal for Wendell, but if by "ceiling" you mean something like absolute best-case scenario, that seems a bit pessimistic.

Recent All-Star big men who were neither #1 talents nor had rare physical dimensions include Al Horford, Deandre Jordan, Andre Drummond, Marc Gasol, Paul Millsap, Draymond Green, Demarcus Cousins, Joakim Noah, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, and LaMarcus Aldridge.

Wendell is not exactly like any of them and pretty distant from some of them. But if we're talking about ceiling, I think these examples show that something more than solid starter is conceivable. He has a long way to go first, of course.

As a Bulls fan, I think the organization views solid starter as a realistic floor, rather than a ceiling, for Wendell. At Duke, he was able to flash all the skills needed for a modern 5 (though clearly not as often as his Mother would have liked), save for capably switching off onto smaller players, something that many collegiate bigs struggle with, but which can be taught and mastered (see Markannen as Exhibit A). And he did so while playing alongside Bagley and other talented players, in an offense that often lacked spacing and creativity.

In Fred Hoiberg's offense, Wendell will have a lot more room to operate inside, and will get plenty of chances to display his shooting range and passing skills. Defensively, he'll be leaned on most for rim protection and defensive rebounding, which are clear strengths of his already, and should complement those of the more mobile Markannen and Bobby Portis.

[Billy Dat]

Reading the article, Mrs. Carter's negative opinion of the NCAA started when she was a D1 player herself, so I don't think Duke inspired all of this vitriol. Also, the Bagley signing definitely plays a role here, as others (and Wendell himself) stated. Mrs. Carter is a good quote for journalists and they are wringing every last drop out of her before she fades. Now that her son is a newly minted rich man, I wonder if her passion for this topic will continue in the form of ongoing advocacy, although it seems like one-and-done will be done within 2-3 years...we should know soon enough because it seems the NBA is committed to giving teams as much advance notice as possible so that they can prepare for what will be a seismic "double draft", the final year of one-and-done and the first year of the new straight-from-high-school when two classes of the best of America are available.

What I would love is for someone to collect all of these great quotes about Duke players going to class and put them into an article. I dig that Wendell's classmate said he (Wendell) regularly contacted him to discuss ongoing projects and the like. Maybe it would counter some of the Pat Forde-type sentiments about Duke players not going to class second semester, which I've even heard JJ say on his podcast.

[Jeffrey]

The NBA is a pick-n-roll (PNR) league, and I'm sure NBA teams in the lead-up to the draft were pestering Marvin and Wendell and also Duke's staff about why Duke didn't run more pick-n-roll last season. I think that's where these frustrations stem from. Duke often ran a prehistoric offense by modern NBA standards by focusing so much on postups instead of spreading the court for PNR. Wendell had to assure these NBA teams that were planning to invest a high draft pick in him that he could be a good PNR roll man who has the IQ to not just finish inside but make the correct pass on the short roll. Standard NBA offense that didn't get displayed at Duke.


You're ignoring, half of the game, the "standard NBA" defense "that didn't get displayed at Duke". Carter is horrible defending the PNR. That's one of the reasons Chicago is one of the best NBA fits for Carter. IMO, Carter's draft stock increased when Duke went to the zone and Carter's D improved substantially.

Duke will not be the only team Carter plays for with Bagley level offensive talent. At the end of next season, will Mrs. Carter still be saying, "My child never got to show his full set of skills"?

[House P]

While I would trade both my arms to get a chance to play for K at Duke

I suggest that you consider trading something else. Otherwise, you are not likely to feature prominently in any of the "minutes discussion" threads which arise during your time on the team.

Right now I have you penciled in to compete with Mike Buckmire for the final spot in Coach K's soon-to-be-unveiled 13 man rotation.

:)

[Jeffrey]

Had Bagley not reclassified late in the summer, would Carter have had more touches and been able to showcase his skills better? That's without debate.

If you think Mrs. Carter is upset about this, check out what Mrs. Bolden has repeatedly publicly stated, on the subject.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I suggest that you consider trading something else. Otherwise, you are not likely to feature prominently in any of the "minutes discussion" threads which arise during your time on the team.

Right now I have you penciled in to compete with Mike Buckmire for the final spot in Coach K's soon-to-be-unveiled 13 man rotation.

:)

I would accept that!

[UrinalCake]

Duke will not be the only team Carter plays for with Bagley level offensive talent. At the end of next season, will Mrs. Carter still be saying, "My child never got to show his full set of skills"?

Excellent post, and I actually think he should have sold it to his advantage to tell NBA teams that he can thrive as an efficient, non-primary scoring option who will not demand the ball in order to be effective. And you are 100% correct that his defense on the perimeter is what held him back from being a top-5 pick.

Hopefully Wendell will find success and his family can find a way to be happy. The Duke program was successful before him and will continue to be so now that he’s gone.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Is everyone entitled to their opinion? I'm sure we'd all agree that, yes they are. However, I'm also sure we'd all agree that some opinions are more valid than others. Giving someone a soapbox and the opportunity to speak via the media doesn't make them an expert nor does it mean their opinion is an unbiased one.



I would suggest that Mrs Carter's experiences make her more of an expert than 95% of us on this board. And I would also say her bias towards her son is equalled by our bias towards defending (sometimes blindly) our program.

[Sir Stealth]

It may be the result of relying on media outlets to relay the message, but everything coming from Wendell and his mother has seemed so jumbled to me. There seem to be three different things going on here:

1) They are clearly trying to voice an opinion about exploitation in the college basketball system that connects it to major systemic policy issues about race, labor, etc. These issues have of course been debated in great detail. It can be argued that the criticism isn't a shot at Duke, but Duke, it's program, and Coach K obviously are a big institutional part of the system, benefit from it and can influence it. On the one hand, I think you have to respect where they're coming from in voicing their opinion about the system and all of the issues tied into it (I certainly agree with them that there needs to be serious reform). On the other, I think that the issues are complex, and some of the soundbites coming from the Carter's haven't really contributed positively to a discussion that merits a more nuanced look. But most of all, I think it's to the detriment of whatever message they are voicing when they mix up this issue with issues 2 and 3.

2) Objections regarding Wendell's basketball usage. This is obviously a much less serious issue than Issue 1, but the Carters seem to be framing it in that context - that college basketball forced him into an environment that wouldn't showcase his skills properly, where he had to do what he was told by his coaches and was treated like a cog rather than as a professional as merited. To me these issues don't belong together, and we just have another iteration of Derryck Thornton's family howling that Thornton wasn't showcased in enough pick and rolls and go screwed even though he was given the starting point guard job his freshman year. Families complaining about roles on the team is an ancient issue going back well before one and done, but the idea that players should now be showcased with their NBA stock in mind has made it worse (whatever injustice was done to Wendell's usage doesn't seem to have hurt him too much). Wendell and his teammates knew that they were signing up to compete among other talented players, that there is only one ball and 40 minutes of game time, and that Duke would try to use them in a way that would win games for Duke first and foremost. I'm always open to the idea that the way the NBA game is played can better maximize skills shown in college, but allowing this to come off as blaming Duke for screwing Wendell or as part of Issue 1 is obnoxious.

3) Hyping Wendell's personality beyond basketball. I'm all for applauding Wendell's well-rounded interests, as I am with most of the players who we are lucky enough to watch play at Duke. But the Carters also seem to be framing this as an objection: Wendell isn't being valued enough for his skills beyond being a basketball player, college basketball just wants to exploit him for his basketball skills and doesn't care about his education, don't you know he could have gone to Harvard and not given in to big time college basketball, etc. I am confident that Duke provided Wendell with world class academic opportunities to go with his athletic experience, and that he will continue to have great opportunities should he wish to continue to come back and pursue his degree. Being part of (and benefiting from) the big stage of college basketball is very demanding, but I seriously doubt that Wendell's academic experience was shunted to the side by Duke so that they could exploit Wendell's basketball talent. This is not just the same exploitative experience that we have seen elsewhere in college basketball (cough, UNC, cough), and I do think that the Carters have an obligation to make that clear when decrying problems in college athletics and the lack of appreciation by the world for all that Wendell is a person.

With all of this jumbled together, any convincing message gets lost in my opinion. I by no means want the Carters to just shut up or bow down to Coach K and Duke, but a little appreciation for the things that Carter got to experience by being a part of Duke wouldn't hurt to add some credibility either. Perhaps there will be an opportunity for them to clarify exactly what their positions are and how they actually feel that Duke fits in to that.

[Jeffrey]

And I would also say her bias towards her son is equalled by our bias towards defending (sometimes blindly) our program.

You appear to believe the Duke basketball program did something wrong. How would you have handled it better, if you had been making the decisions?

[ChillinDuke]

The comparison to the most obnoxious sports father in generations is beyond the pale (I bet Levar has already trademarked that, in fact).

You may not agree with Mrs. Carter, but she has a right to speak her mind. Her experience is far flung from any of ours, and she isn't an idiot. Maybe it's some sort of motivation or branding, or sour grapes, but maybe - just maybe - she is sharing her authentic experience. Had Bagley not reclassified late in the summer, would Carter have had more touches and been able to showcase his skills better? That's without debate. Is that the objective of any K team? Of course not.

As a mother is she entitled to have her opinion and to share that opinion? Yes.

Fans and posters calling her out and comparing her to hideous examples like Levar just because she is stating her truth feels wrong to me. Wendell chose Duke, was by all accounts a stand up human being and the most academically inclined OAD we have ever had.

On this board, we who have little to no grounds to do so lambast Coach K for defensive schemes, end of game decisions, time outs, and all manner of other decisions.

Semi Ojeleye's parents had a bad experience at Duke. The Carter parents feel Wendell got a raw deal from Duke and the NCAA.

While I would trade both my arms to get a chance to play for K at Duke, pretending that every player has a blissful experience is pretty naive.

I got blasted on this board last time I attempted to defend Mrs Carter's choice of words, so I won't get a lot of support this time either.

Salesforce is the 2018 Best Company to Work for on Forbes. Do you think every employee has nothing but positive things to say?

I, for one, am not questioning her right to have and share her opinion.

What I cringe at is the "entitlement" that her attitude seems to imply (not entitlement to speak opinion; entitlement of her son being "king of the castle"). Semi Ojeleye's family, for example, has a bit more of a case in that he did not play very much at Duke, yet he has somewhat promptly ended up in the NBA and with playing time at that.

Wendell Carter, although not the "focal point" of the Duke offense, was a non-stop starter, double-double machine, and was discussed at length throughout the college basketball season by every major media pundit coast to coast. He was held out after a seemingly minor injury, presumably in no small part to protect his health and draft stock, and was eventually drafted 7th in the NBA Draft by a big-market Chicago Bulls franchise.

It's very hard for an objective observer to look at Wendell Carter's situation and understand how he was somehow harmed, or burdened, or disadvantaged, or whatever. That's the issue I have. Semi Ojeleye's family has a better case. Still not a great case, in my opinion, but a better case relative to Wendell Carter.

Anyone (and everyone) is entitled to his or her own opinion. Of course. But when the CEO of a Fortune 500 Company has a "look at me, look at how terrible this is" opinion of his or her life path, I don't think many objective observers can reasonably empathize. I don't think Wendell's situation is much different than my analogy. And so for that reason, I find it off-putting that Mrs. Carter (and Wendell) chooses to continuously harp on this topic.

- Chillin

[DukieInKansas]

I would suggest that Mrs Carter's experiences make her more of an expert than 95% of us on this board. And I would also say her bias towards her son is equalled by our bias towards defending (sometimes blindly) our program.

This reminds me that there are always 3 sides to a story - my version, your version, and the actual version. I'd say that the truth of the situation is somewhat in the middle of Coach K is perfect and Wendell Carter was held back from showing all his skills.

I really enjoyed watching Carter play this way - more than Bagley in some cases. I hope his skill set continues to grow and that he gets to achieve everything he wants in the NBA. That will make his mother happy - she just wants the best for her child and that is her "job" as his mother.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You appear to believe the Duke basketball program did something wrong. How would you have handled it better, if you had been making the decisions?

I don't believe anything of the sort. I just think her perspective has inherent validity that many here are inclined to ignore.

[Acymetric]

I don't believe anything of the sort. I just think her perspective has inherent validity that many here are inclined to ignore.

Her perspective is certainly a more personal one, I'm not sure that makes it inherently valid.

I think Sir Stealth did a good job breaking down the separate issues that she has been discussing, and how she tends to intertwine them together when she gives an interview. In a vacuum, criticizing of the NCAA and separately suggesting that Wendell may not have been used to his fullest would be fine, but when you direct pointed (and clearly negative) criticism towards the NCAA system and in the same breath mention that Wendell was not used properly in a way that implies the two are somehow related, both points take on that negative tone and that seems to be what most people take issue with.

[sagegrouse]

I don't believe anything of the sort. I just think her perspective has inherent validity that many here are inclined to ignore.

Actually, my perspective had wandered to the advice I might give a prospective daughter-in-law of Mother Kylia.... ;)

[ice-9]

I don't believe anything of the sort. I just think her perspective has inherent validity that many here are inclined to ignore.

Can we do better than sweeping generalizations please?

Everyone here who disagrees are blind and biased?

Which perspective has validity? She seems to have one on many topics.

I just don't think repeatedly accusing those who disagree as blind and biased adds to the conversation.

We all know this is a Duke forum. We self-select on the basis of that bias. There's no point in trying to invalidate someone's point of view by accusing someone of Duke bias -- it's something we all implicitly agreed to and accepted as part of being here.

Maybe there were ad hominem attacks on Mrs. Carter that I hadn't seen. So far it's remarkably restrained, though that maybe through some dark blue lens.

[devilirium]

I would suggest that Mrs Carter's experiences make her more of an expert than 95% of us on this board. And I would also say her bias towards her son is equalled by our bias towards defending (sometimes blindly) our program.

I understand that viewpoint. There's nothing wrong with a marketplace of ideas debate, either. Kylia's comments are confusing over about a 2 month timeline. The ESPN interview (video) of the Carters paints an entirely different picture than this recent story. It makes me wonder if the interviewer didn't parse Mrs. Carter's commentary to get clicks. It certainly wouldn't be the last time that a writer went for the headline porn. But there's also a lack of total understanding on Mrs. Carter's part (the plantation analogy to a year in college, etc)

Regarding the "giving up talents to fit the team mold"--that has been going on for as long as K has been coaching and probably longer. On some level, every individual must compromise their abilities to conform to a team--no matter the success. It's not about getting Johnny or Jill x amount of shots per game. With the advent of the OAD, access to social media, and massive money streams (shoe deals, endorsements, salary, et al), though, kids are catered to a lot more, and this is where coaches like K must have more of a muted, nuanced reaction. In the 90's, kids would just transfer (Joey Beard, Chris Burgess, Billy McCaffery, etc). It's just different now.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Can we do better than sweeping generalizations please?

Everyone here who disagrees are blind and biased?

Which perspective has validity? She seems to have one on many topics.

I just don't think repeatedly accusing those who disagree as blind and biased adds to the conversation.

We all know this is a Duke forum. We self-select on the basis of that bias. There's no point in trying to invalidate someone's point of view by accusing someone of Duke bias -- it's something we all implicitly agreed to and accepted as part of being here.

Maybe there were ad hominem attacks on Mrs. Carter that I hadn't seen. So far it's remarkably restrained, though that maybe through some dark blue lens.

Well, she was compared to Mr. Ball earlier, which seems beyond the scope for the mother of a Duke athlete.

Anf to be clear, I am not saying "everyone here is biased" intending any negative connotation. I mean that we come here as Duke fans to celebrate and sometimes defend our program, and there is inherent bias there.

It is part of being a fan/fanatic, we have blind spots. We share most of these blind spots, and this is generally a great forum for that perspective.

I am obviously in the minority here, but I feel Mrs. Carter's comments are interesting, thought-provoking, and valid in the context od oue ongoing discussion of OAD athletes, what they mean to the program, and the associated compromises required to recruit them.

I won't belabor the point further, but I also won't cast off her comments as ludicrous.

[ChillinDuke]

Can we do better than sweeping generalizations please?

Everyone here who disagrees are blind and biased?

Which perspective has validity? She seems to have one on many topics.

I just don't think repeatedly accusing those who disagree as blind and biased adds to the conversation.

We all know this is a Duke forum. We self-select on the basis of that bias. There's no point in trying to invalidate someone's point of view by accusing someone of Duke bias -- it's something we all implicitly agreed to and accepted as part of being here.

Maybe there were ad hominem attacks on Mrs. Carter that I hadn't seen. So far it's remarkably restrained, though that maybe through some dark blue lens.


Well, she was compared to Mr. Ball earlier, which seems beyond the scope for the mother of a Duke athlete.

Anf to be clear, I am not saying "everyone here is biased" intending any negative connotation. I mean that we come here as Duke fans to celebrate and sometimes defend our program, and there is inherent bias there.

It is part of being a fan/fanatic, we have blind spots. We share most of these blind spots, and this is generally a great forum for that perspective.

I am obviously in the minority here, but I feel Mrs. Carter's comments are interesting, thought-provoking, and valid in the context od oue ongoing discussion of OAD athletes, what they mean to the program, and the associated compromises required to recruit them.

I won't belabor the point further, but I also won't cast off her comments as ludicrous.

I think you both have valid points. I particularly liked the ones in bold.

What I struggle to understand is, well, Mrs. Carter's entire point. Does she take issue with the NCAA's amateurism model? Or the NCAA's attitude toward its student athletes? Or Duke's attitude toward its student athletes? Or Duke's usage of Wendell? Or the general college basketball style?

I haven't read the SI article, nor every single quote that Mrs. Carter has made. But I've read the snippets. And it seems to me her conclusion is that Wendell didn't get to show all of his talents in college because he was told to play a role. Further, her conclusion seems to derive (and here's where it gets fuzzy for me) from a dislike of the NCAA's system and their treatment of their athletes.

Objectively, her conclusion is frankly absurd, given 99% of professional basketball players in the NBA are essentially role players and are asked to be role players. NBA coaches almost certainly aren't going to hand the ball to Wendell and say, "Win." That is to say, he is exceedingly likely to fill a role in the NBA, perhaps a different role than he was asked to play in college, but a role nonetheless which seems to be what Mrs. Carter disliked. And further, her dislike of the treatment of players and the lack of intrinsic value placed upon them goes against my very deep understanding of how Duke Basketball operates. And if the counter is that her issue is directed at the NCAA and not Duke, then I ask how much interaction do these players actually have with NCAA people/procedures/policies? My working assumption is that Duke handles these people/procedures/policies as the intermediary and that the players only significant interaction is with Duke.

To MtnDevil's point, perhaps Mrs. Carter's comments are thought-provoking insofar as my understanding of Duke Basketball and its player treatment has been grossly incorrect all these years. But absent that, I'm not entirely sure what Mrs. Carter's point is. Her son just got drafted 7th in the NBA Draft, coincidentally the same as his RSCI ranking after high school. His former RSCI neighbor (#8, Mitchell Robinson, also a big man) was drafted 36th by the Knicks, and Robinson opted to not take part in the NCAA system, instead sitting out the year and training. While that comparison doesn't necessarily tell us much, I nonetheless find it interesting.

- Chillin

[Billy Dat]

The media tour continues...this is A LOT about Bagley

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/wendell-carter-jrs-blessing-disguise-could-be-big-time-gain-bulls?amp&__twitter_impression=true

[DangerDevil]

The media tour continues...this is A LOT about Bagley

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/wendell-carter-jrs-blessing-disguise-could-be-big-time-gain-bulls?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Well so much for the hope that this was about the NCAA and not Coach K:

“As for the blessing in disguise, Kylie Carter has yet to give Krzyzewski her true feelings from promises that weren’t kept. But it’s coming.

“We have not had our conversation but we will. We almost went there with him when we did our exit interview,” she said. “But he'll come around to a Bulls game and I'll get the chance.”

Like the Bulls, mom is letting it build.”

[Acymetric]

The media tour continues...this is A LOT about Bagley

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/wendell-carter-jrs-blessing-disguise-could-be-big-time-gain-bulls?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Frome the article:


As for the blessing in disguise, Kylie Carter has yet to give Krzyzewski her true feelings from promises that weren’t kept. But it’s coming.
“We have not had our conversation but we will. We almost went there with him when we did our exit interview,” she said. “But he'll come around to a Bulls game and I'll get the chance.”

Seems like the exit interview would have been the appropriate place to have this conversation, as opposed to the media. Also clear that they are unhappy with Duke, at least in some respects. Possibly they were happy with the experience overall, but unhappy with certain aspects, which would be fair (but the public complaints are getting a little tired).


ETA: Looks like DangerDevil beat me to the punch on the money quote from the article. Definitely worth reading the whole thing to get a full picture though.


Well so much for the hope that this was about the NCAA and not Coach K:

“As for the blessing in disguise, Kylie Carter has yet to give Krzyzewski her true feelings from promises that weren’t kept. But it’s coming.

“We have not had our conversation but we will. We almost went there with him when we did our exit interview,” she said. “But he'll come around to a Bulls game and I'll get the chance.”

Like the Bulls, mom is letting it build.”

[BD80]

Well so much for the hope that this was about the NCAA and not Coach K:

“As for the blessing in disguise, Kylie Carter has yet to give Krzyzewski her true feelings from promises that weren’t kept. But it’s coming.

“We have not had our conversation but we will. We almost went there with him when we did our exit interview,” she said. “But he'll come around to a Bulls game and I'll get the chance.”

Like the Bulls, mom is letting it build.”

Trust the process?

[arnie]

Well, she was compared to Mr. Ball earlier, which seems beyond the scope for the mother of a Duke athlete.

Anf to be clear, I am not saying "everyone here is biased" intending any negative connotation. I mean that we come here as Duke fans to celebrate and sometimes defend our program, and there is inherent bias there.

It is part of being a fan/fanatic, we have blind spots. We share most of these blind spots, and this is generally a great forum for that perspective.

I am obviously in the minority here, but I feel Mrs. Carter's comments are interesting, thought-provoking, and valid in the context od oue ongoing discussion of OAD athletes, what they mean to the program, and the associated compromises required to recruit them.

I won't belabor the point further, but I also won't cast off her comments as ludicrous.

I’m personally offended that you think LaVar Ball’s perspective is ridiculous, ludicrous or otherwise not mainstream.😀

[Acymetric]

I'm curious if some of the perceptions below came from conversations with NBA folks, or if they are sort of self generated. When people put out lines like "People say that I..." when there isn't much real evidence of people saying it, decent chance the description is actually self-assigned. I'm not really convinced that anyone other than Wendell in his quote has suggested that Carter "bowed down" to Bagley.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/wendell-carter-jrs-blessing-disguise-could-be-big-time-gain-bulls?amp&__twitter_impression=true


“He told us it bothered him at first. But he said I gotta make it work,” Kylia Carter said. “You're gonna do all the stuff you already know how to do. And you're gonna do it at an extreme level. Everything but score. Do everything else to aid.”
“Everybody knows you can score. So let Marvin have all the damn points. They're throwing him the ball, the offense is geared around him. Why are you beating your head against the wall.”


“People think I took a backseat to Marvin. I don't think that's the right terminology. It's just that I sacrificed,” Wendell Jr. said. “People think I bowed down to him or allowed him to take the leadership role. But in my opinion I did what I had to in order to win.”

[Billy Dat]

Between the Carters and the Ojeleyes, K is taking a real beating on this particular PR front lately. While I always give him the benefit of the doubt, I also know that it aint always pretty to see how the sausage is made.

[proelitedota]

With the Gbinijie's it's easy to understand their grievances.

I am really struggling to understand Karla,

1. She compared the NCAA to slavery.
2. Wanted Wendell to stay in school, because he loved school.
3. Is now revealed to be angry at Duke and K.

:confused:

[mattman91]

With the Gbinijie's it's easy to understand their grievances.

I am really struggling to understand Karla,

1. She compared the NCAA to slavery.
2. Wanted Wendell to stay in school, because he loved school.
3. Is now revealed to be angry at Duke and K.

:confused:

Perhaps the blue lipstick didn't get her enough attention?

[FerryFor50]

The more I read about the Carters, the less I like them. They make a lot of excuses.

Wendell was disappointed that Bagley re-classified to come to Duke?


“Humanly, you didn't want it to happen,” Carter Jr. said some time after going through the battery of media interviews following his introduction.

How's he going to feel when Chicago wants to bring in better free agents? I've always saw Carter as an Al Horford/Paul Milsap ceiling player. Those guys weren't necessarily offensive focal points; they were lunch pail guys who could score, but were also asked to do a lot of other things. You know, kind of like what Carter's role was at Duke.


Carter Jr. stayed quiet, true to his roots despite being a “spoiled” only child, by his admission.

"Spoiled." That is a word that explains a lot, from his occasional over-dramatic outbursts on the court, to how his mother is injecting herself in his career right now. I don't see why the Lavar Ball comparisons are "beyond the pale." Ball is a guy who wants the best for his kids and has put them in a pretty good spot. Does he also take some of the spotlight? Sure. But what has he done that's been THAT awful, other than be annoying?


“I tell people. People make promises they can't keep. It didn't bother me,” Wendell Sr. said. “I was concerned because I felt like we were lied to. ‘Oh, Wendell's gonna be the man’ and then the rug was pulled from under us.”

How were they "lied to"? At the time K made those promises, he likely meant them. Then, he had a golden opportunity to pick up a better player. Should he have passed on the chance to make the TEAM better? Let Marvin go to UNC or Kentucky? Heck no. You get the best players and you make it work.


Making Wendell Jr. develop comfort while being uncomfortable was a lesson he learned early and he excelled academically and athletically, weighing a scholarship offer from Harvard before deciding on Duke.

I wonder why they chose Duke over Harvard. Did they think Wendell wouldn't be the featured piece of Harvard's team and dominate the Ivy League in relative obscurity (and maybe not even get into the lottery), so they chose the much higher profile Duke team with the hall of fame coach with bunches of NBA connections? Perhaps they used Duke as much as they feel Duke might have "used" Wendell?


On the floor, though, he wasn’t performing like a future lottery pick. Wendell Jr. attributed it to the “freshman 15” pounds he added before getting in better shape.

“At the beginning when you watch Wendell's games, he was engaged but we could tell something wasn't all good,” Kylie Carter said. “(He) didn't look all in, you didn't look like you were giving your all. You were there, but you weren't really there.”


So far, he's admittedly spoiled and out of shape and not giving it his all on the court. Yet he should have been the focal point?


“Defense is not the strong suit of this team. Fill that void.”

The early start never dropped Carter Jr. from draft boards, firmly planted in the top 10 all season as a steady complement to Bagley—an aspect that appeared to be the greatest compliment to his maturing game.

The blessing suddenly was undisguised, with Kylie facetiously saying “thanks, Coach K”.

“As the games got tougher, his game got better,” she said. “Because those things they needed in those tough things were things he was so comfortable doing. They needed rebounds, rim protection. They needed ball screens.”

Weird. So Carter finally buys into what his role should be, fills it, and Duke gets better. Carter plays better. Strange... almost as if Coach K knew what he was talking about!


“People think I took a backseat to Marvin. I don't think that's the right terminology. It's just that I sacrificed,” Wendell Jr. said. “People think I bowed down to him or allowed him to take the leadership role. But in my opinion I did what I had to in order to win.”

Sacrifice is pretty much interchangeable with "taking a backseat." You can't be both humble and bitter about it at the same time.

[proelitedota]

Wendell and Gary committed like 9 months before Bagley reclassified. There is no way any of them should have expected to be penciled as the man of the team.

[Wander]

LOL, the guy had a great year and was selected 7th in the NBA draft. What kind of stupid conversation is this by Carter's mom? She's definitely a little Lavaresque.

[FerryFor50]

LOL, the guy had a great year and was selected 7th in the NBA draft. What kind of stupid conversation is this by Carter's mom? She's definitely a little Lavaresque.

He would have had an even better year if he converted that chipshot layup against KU and didn't foul out.

[MartyClark]

Mission accomplished for Wendell and his family. He went to Duke, did well, got lots of t.v. exposure, lots of respect and is drafted #7. He's a millionaire with a bright future. His family is probably taken care of for life.

They should drop this petty, second guessing of K and the Duke program.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I’m personally offended that you think LaVar Ball’s perspective is ridiculous, ludicrous or otherwise not mainstream.😀

Touche...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

He would have had an even better year if he converted that chipshot layup against KU and didn't foul out.

I still am miffed at how he cheesed that lay up...it's like he lost his bearings....coulda put that game out of reach. And now this crud from mama? Gimme a break.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I don't believe anything of the sort. I just think her perspective has inherent validity that many here are inclined to ignore.

Granting 'inherent validity' is a sure fire way to validate total horse hockey......

[Acymetric]

I don't believe anything of the sort. I just think her perspective has inherent validity that many here are inclined to ignore.


Granting 'inherent validity' is a sure fire way to validate total horse hockey...

Right. Her perspective is different than anyone on this board, and that perspective should be considered and does have value. That does not mean that any conclusion she reaches based on that perspective is inherently valid​.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Right. Her perspective is different than anyone on this board, and that perspective should be considered and does have value. That does not mean that any conclusion she reaches based on that perspective is inherently valid​.

No moreso than, say, the criticism of bench length from a board of armchair assistant coaches...

:insert smiley:

[HereBeforeCoachK]

No moreso than, say, the criticism of bench length from a board of armchair assistant coaches...

:insert smiley:

...and to that point, I don't believe you have granted "inherent validity" to any of those, have you? Nor have any of them, I wouldn't think, have roundly criticized K.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

...and to that point, I don't believe you have granted "inherent validity" to any of those, have you? Nor have any of them, I wouldn't think, have roundly criticized K.

Oh, you must be new here.

When seasons are going sideways there is plenty of angst and shade tossed at the coaching staff. And then we get the always fun debates about whether K's records make him above reproach. Those threads can go sideways so fast it will make your head spin.

[Acymetric]

...and to that point, I don't believe you have granted "inherent validity" to any of those, have you? Nor have any of them, I wouldn't think, have roundly criticized K.

Oh, plenty of them roundly criticize K, you'll see more of that once the season starts and the minutes allocation battle commences.

[FerryFor50]

Oh, plenty of them roundly criticize K, you'll see more of that once the season starts and the minutes allocation battle commences.

There is a KEY difference, though.

We're criticizing as fans. That's short for "fanatic" so we're expected to be irrational.

The Carters are criticizing as former player and parents of former player. There's a level of decorum that applies there that doesn't really apply to fans, especially on a message board.

Would we be as up in arms if Ms. Carter started a thread under the handle "MsBlueLipstick" in this forum to argue her son't merits? Of course not. We'd just have a hundred page thread about it and the national media wouldn't bat an eyelash.

[Sir Stealth]

Wow, so much for the #brotherhood. I'm just really unimpressed by the airing of all this dirty laundry in the media with the admission that they haven't even tried to speak about it with Coach K or the staff. Why are they so insecure about how Wendell is viewed when he was widely lauded in the media for his play all year, maintained great draft position and is thought of so highly as a prospect? Complaints about Marvin joining the team and "getting all the points?" If Wendell wants to be the well-rounded, thoughtful individual to match the brand/characterization that has been put out there so much, he might try to act like a better teammate/friend/brotherhood member. He made great contributions to the team with his talent, but the idea that he has actually had to "sacrifice" anything doesn't hold up.

[DukieInBrasil]

personally, i'd be pleased if we never heard another word from Mrs. Carter. If she wants to criticize K, go ahead, he's a fully grown man and knows how to handle himself, but these insinuations of some sort of nefarious backstabbing and lying by K, and this "oh, maybe i'll reveal it later" comes across as more her trying to be the center of attention than any actual issue with K.
From my perspective: her son got 1 year of free college education from a top flight school, got as much media exposure for his career as possible (there is no other place he could have gone and gotten more exposure), and got drafted #7 and is now a millionaire. Sounds like his parents are unwilling to accept that the situation around Wendell changed and that the way he was used on the court subsequently changed. Sounds like they're also somewhat bitter that their son wasn't the best player on the team. I'd rather not hear from them again, or better, to paraphrase one Jack Nicholson in one a them there, whatcha call ems, talking motion pictures, i'd rather they just said thank you and went on their way.

[luvdahops]

Wow, so much for the #brotherhood. I'm just really unimpressed by the airing of all this dirty laundry in the media with the admission that they haven't even tried to speak about it with Coach K or the staff. Why are they so insecure about how Wendell is viewed when he was widely lauded in the media for his play all year, maintained great draft position and is thought of so highly as a prospect? Complaints about Marvin joining the team and "getting all the points?" If Wendell wants to be the well-rounded, thoughtful individual to match the brand/characterization that has been put out there so much, he might try to act like a better teammate/friend/brotherhood member. He made great contributions to the team with his talent, but the idea that he has actually had to "sacrifice" anything doesn't hold up.

I agree completely. Wendell had the second highest usage rate on the team (higher than Duval or Grayson), which means he hardly lacked for touches. He was also named 2nd Team All-ACC, with fewer votes than Bagley (of course) but more than Allen. Wendell's counting stats would have been better - maybe more like 15-16 points, 10-11 boards, 2.5 blocks and assists - if he had done a better job of staying out of foul trouble and on the floor.

[Truth&Justise]

Surprised this has generated so much discussion today. This just doesn't bother me too much. Absolutely loved everything Wendell brought to the team last year. I hope he has tremendous success in the NBA. If his parents say some things that can be interpreted as critical of Coach K....so be it. It's pretty peripheral. Still love Wendell and am thankful to the Carter family for sharing him with Duke for the year.

[Jeffrey]

If his parents say some things that can be interpreted as critical of Coach K...so be it. It's pretty peripheral.

A basketball recruiter might disagree.

[devilirium]

All this and she was begging K for an eligibility reprieve after she conceivably tamperedwith Wendell's NCAA eligibility?


This is how you thank the program?

[Jeffrey]

How could K have made unkept game promises to the Carter family, when past OADs have consistently said K does not make game promises?

[FerryFor50]

All this and she was begging K for an eligibility reprieve after she conceivably tamperedwith Wendell's NCAA eligibility?


This is how you thank the program?

Oh yeah! I had forgotten about that! :mad:

[ncexnyc]

Well at least we have something to discuss other than where Lebron will be playing next season:D

[flyingdutchdevil]

Well at least we have something to discuss other than where Lebron will be playing next season:D

I heard he's coming to Duke to start at the 5, forcing Bolden to once again come off the bench ;)

[dukelifer]

Some of this was lobbying on behalf of her kid and some of it is whining. The coordination of wardrobe at the draft says a lot about the closeness of this family. It is true that Bagley stole some of his limelight. She appears to be arguing that without Bagley- Wendell may have been rookie of the year and maybe first team All-ACC. And of course- he could have stayed another year if accolades were important - but she is also saying that the NCAA is exploitive so why stick around. So they believe that Wendell was better than he showed because Bagley took away opportunities and that probably pushed Wendell down in the draft. All that is speculation on their part- but many parents say similar things to lobby for their kids. In the end- I am not sure if any of this is good for Wendell. He is in the pros and the rest is up to him. I am not convinced he would have been drafted higher if Bagley went elsewhere and I am not convinced she would have been happy anyway. Coach K will need to decide if he wants to change anything as a result. It is very hard to keep many talented kids and their parents happy at once.

[JetpackJesus]

Ball is a guy who wants the best for his kids and has put them in a pretty good spot. Does he also take some of the spotlight? Sure. But what has he done that's been THAT awful, other than be annoying? I don't know about this sentiment. I think I think that Ball wants the best for his kids, but I disagree that he's put them in a pretty good spot. Lonzo is fine (so far) because his initial success was assured before his dad had the platform to ruin it (because Lonzo is the platform). The jury is still out on whether Lonzo's future will be adversely affected by his dad's antics.

As for what he's done that's THAT awful? He has taken several actions that significantly harmed the future of his other two sons in service of his own ego. His sons are certainly in a worse spot than they were this time last year. LiAngelo is partly to blame for his situation, but everything else is on dad. I think that's awful.

The more Ms. Carter talks, the more I am beginning to realize she doesn't really have anything to say. In that respect, I guess a LaVar Ball comparison is fair. But I think the similarities probably end there.

[Steven43]

If you think Mrs. Carter is upset about this, check out what Mrs. Bolden has repeatedly publicly stated, on the subject.

Mrs. Bolden was not particularly thrilled that ol’ Marvin reclassified and ended up coming to Duke? Do you have a link or two to share? Thanks.

[Wahoo2000]

Some of this was lobbying on behalf of her kid and some of it is whining. The coordination of wardrobe at the draft says a lot about the closeness of this family. It is true that Bagley stole some of his limelight. She appears to be arguing that without Bagley- Wendell may have been rookie of the year and maybe first team All-ACC. And of course- he could have stayed another year if accolades were important - but she is also saying that the NCAA is exploitive so why stick around. So they believe that Wendell was better than he showed because Bagley took away opportunities and that probably pushed Wendell down in the draft. All that is speculation on their part- but many parents say similar things to lobby for their kids. In the end- I am not sure if any of this is good for Wendell. He is in the pros and the rest is up to him. I am not convinced he would have been drafted higher if Bagley went elsewhere and I am not convinced she would have been happy anyway. Coach K will need to decide if he wants to change anything as a result. It is very hard to keep many talented kids and their parents happy at once.

This kind of sums up my whole thought process watching things play out from a non-Duke fan POV. I think the crux of the entire issue is that the Carters FELT promised (not sure if they actually were or not) that K was going to make Wendell the centerpiece of his offense in 17-18. Everything would be designed to maximize his talents (and in their thinking, probably his draft status as well). Cut to late summer 2017 and with a chance to land a generational talent, K took it - thereby jettisoning the "promise" to make Carter the focus of the team. Carter and family understandably are less than pleased, especially IF they felt "betrayed" - as in, "I know what the plan was, but now we have a chance to get a generational talent, so...... sorry!"

I wouldn't call either side "right" or "wrong" - that's big time college athletics recruiting 101. In the long run, Duke is probably better off disappointing a kid like that here or there. I know for a FACT Bennett has lost out on a LOT of kids because he doesn't tell them they're going to be "featured" - instead he shows them film of our old-school motion/blocker-mover/sides offense and shows them the different roles there. Maybe we have less "disgruntled" players, but we also have less talented players overall.

[CDu]

I don't know about this sentiment. I think I think that Ball wants the best for his kids, but I disagree that he's put them in a pretty good spot. Lonzo is fine (so far) because his initial success was assured before his dad had the platform to ruin it (because Lonzo is the platform). The jury is still out on whether Lonzo's future will be adversely affected by his dad's antics.

As for what he's done that's THAT awful? He has taken several actions that significantly harmed the future of his other two sons in service of his own ego. His sons are certainly in a worse spot than they were this time last year. LiAngelo is partly to blame for his situation, but everything else is on dad. I think that's awful.

The more Ms. Carter talks, the more I am beginning to realize she doesn't really have anything to say. In that respect, I guess a LaVar Ball comparison is fair. But I think the similarities probably end there.

And Ball has already hurt Lonzo by costing him millions in shoe contract money. Look at the deals Bagley and Ayton just got. And as you said, he has killed LiAngelo’s college career in the interest of self-promotion. And has done the same to LaMelo. In LiAngelo’s case, he really could have used the free development time that a D-1 college could have offered for 4 years. It remains to be seen whether LaMelo’s future will be so sabotaged by skipping college. But I would suspect it will be.

Ball may mean well, but I would definitely agree that he hasn’t put his kids in the best spot. And it seems that self-promotion has taken priority over his kids’ best interest.

[CDu]

How could K have made unkept game promises to the Carter family, when past OADs have consistently said K does not make game promises?

Folks hear what they want to hear. “I can picture you as the star scorer in the post in Brand, Boozer, and Okafor” can be heard as “We will build the offense around your talents in the post” instead of “you’ll get a chance to earn it, and I think you are capable of it.”

[cato]

I cannot stomach most of this, but I gotta say: I am so happy Wendell Carter, Jr. played for Duke.

My mom has strong opinions about Duke basketball, and lots of other stuff too. Someone should absolutely call her up and ask her opinion about my job.

Actually, no. Please don’t.

[Dukehky]

She just likes the attention. Wish she would chill out, but K isn't going to say anything publicly.

Wendell went on Pardon My Take last Friday and talked to two guys who absolutely hate Duke and he said all the right things. Doesn't matter what his mom says at this point.

Will it hurt our recruiting? No. Wendell went #7 in the draft and wasn't ever going to go any higher than 6.

Duval going from the #5 prospect in the class to undrafted might hurt. Even though it shouldn't.

[Pghdukie]

Maybe Mrs Carter should comment on the layup her son missed at a most critical time of the season.

[JetpackJesus]

And Ball has already hurt Lonzo by costing him millions in shoe contract money. Look at the deals Bagley and Ayton just got. And as you said, he has killed LiAngelo’s college career in the interest of self-promotion. And has done the same to LaMelo. In LiAngelo’s case, he really could have used the free development time that a D-1 college could have offered for 4 years. It remains to be seen whether LaMelo’s future will be so sabotaged by skipping college. But I would suspect it will be.

Ball may mean well, but I would definitely agree that he hasn’t put his kids in the best spot. And it seems that self-promotion has taken priority over his kids’ best interest.

Great point about the shoe deal and Lonzo. I posted it in another thread, but there's a video of LiAngelo's pre-draft workout. He absolutely needed that development time.


https://youtu.be/kRuxwjl2vPM

[Ranidad]

I agree with The at poster that Wendell’s Mom muddles different issues

I wonder if all of her outrage goes away when her son starts receiving a paycheck. The NBA pays well but no team will hesitate to get a player that will make them (the team) better. The Bulls traded away Brand within a year of him winning NBA rookie of they year (IIRC).

In any real world scenario Wendell would not have been drafted higher than fifth and draft night trades can alter draft order too. Bagley playing on any Power Five team this year would still have been drafted before Carter.

[AtlDuke72]

I don't believe anything of the sort. I just think her perspective has inherent validity that many here are inclined to ignore.

When my son played high school ball the parents of the players sat away from each other during the games and just I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ed about how their son was either being used and/or not playing enough. Ms. Carter would have fit in well. The coach did not owe anything to her son - his job was to do best by the team. Her views to me are like many parents of athletes who think their child is entitled to be treated as if the team should center around him. I do not call that “inherent validity”. The crime here apparently was having another player on the team who was as good or better than her son. She is entitled to her views but I think that they are ridiculous.

[jv001]

When my son played high school ball the parents of the players sat away from each other during the games and just I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ed about how their son was either being used and/or not playing enough. Ms. Carter would have fit in well. The coach did not owe anything to her son - his job was to do best by the team. Her views to me are like many parents of athletes who think their child is entitled to be treated as if the team should center around him. I do not call that “inherent validity”. The crime here apparently was having another player on the team who was as good or better than her son. She is entitled to her views but I think that they are ridiculous.

I was blessed to have coached some fine young men in basketball, baseball and football. I never once had a problem with any of those players, but the parents, that was a different story. Many of them thought their child was the next MJ, Mickey Mantle or the next Jim Brown. It didn't matter that the player was 5'1" and weighed 175 lbs. The funny thing was that none of those parents had the guts to discuss it with me. But they sure could sit in the stands and be obnoxious to the other parents and to those parent's kids. Ms. Ball reminds me so much of those parents and those days. So, yeh, I'll compare her to Mr. Ball and those parents. GoDuke!

[blUDAYvil]

Interesting exchange between Dickie V and Wendell Carter Jr. on Twitter on this, which sheds light. Wendell: "I was there when she did this interview. the reporter clearly wanted more people to view the article because that is not what she said AT ALL"

https://twitter.com/DickieV/status/1011747286827880450

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Interesting exchange between Dickie V and Wendell Carter Jr. on Twitter on this, which sheds light. Wendell: "I was there when she did this interview. the reporter clearly wanted more people to view the article because that is not what she said AT ALL"

https://twitter.com/DickieV/status/1011747286827880450

Wow. That's a surreal back and forth. Not sure what to make of it.

[ChillinDuke]

Wow. That's a surreal back and forth. Not sure what to make of it.

Surreal is right.

At this point, regardless of what they actually feel, the family should probably reign this whole thing in. Wendell is about to start a career where he can make a lot, lot, lot of money. They can pick this back up at some later time, but no need to enter his first year in The League with crazy mom interviews and Twitter exchanges that can easily ignite the news media.

- Chillin

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Surreal is right.

At this point, regardless of what they actually feel, the family should probably reign this whole thing in. Wendell is about to start a career where he can make a lot, lot, lot of money. They can pick this back up at some later time, but no need to enter his first year in The League with crazy mom interviews and Twitter exchanges that can easily ignite the news media.

- Chillin

I long for the days when Twitter was not newsworthy.

[DangerDevil]

Wendell was on Golic and Wingo this morning, I didn’t hear the entire interview but they did not get into the Duke/Coach K/Bagley issues while I was listening. Wendell spoke about his recruitment between Duke and Harvard, he said Tommy Amaker was a great man and Harvard spoke for itself but Coach K and the opportunity at Duke was too good to turn down.

Who knows, hopefully it is all a bunch of nothing and Mrs Carter has been misquoted or simply taken out of context.

There was nothing in the portion of the interview that I heard that indicated that Wendell nor anyone in his family is upset with Duke or Coach K.

[Acymetric]

Interesting exchange between Dickie V and Wendell Carter Jr. on Twitter on this, which sheds light. Wendell: "I was there when she did this interview. the reporter clearly wanted more people to view the article because that is not what she said AT ALL"

https://twitter.com/DickieV/status/1011747286827880450


Wow. That's a surreal back and forth. Not sure what to make of it.


Wendell was on Golic and Wingo this morning, I didn’t hear the entire interview but they did not get into the Duke/Coach K/Bagley issues while I was listening. Wendell spoke about his recruitment between Duke and Harvard, he said Tommy Amaker was a great man and Harvard spoke for itself but Coach K and the opportunity at Duke was too good to turn down.

Who knows, hopefully it is all a bunch of nothing and Mrs Carter has been misquoted or simply taken out of context.

There was nothing in the portion of the interview that I heard that indicated that Wendell nor anyone in his family is upset with Duke or Coach K.

I tend to believe Wendell when he says his mom was misquoted, BUT there is a little doubt because it would be hard for me to believe Dickie V's tweet is the first he saw of the article (and others like it). Why wouldn't you refute the quotes in that article immediately once you became aware of it? As it is, the only time he has addressed it is buried in a Dickie V twitter thread after being called out. Also, his tweet only mentions Bagley and his family, he doesn't directly dispute any of the Duke related issues (which may or may not have been intentional).

[sagegrouse]

Surreal is right.

At this point, regardless of what they actually feel, the family should probably reign this whole thing in. Wendell is about to start a career where he can make a lot, lot, lot of money. They can pick this back up at some later time, but no need to enter his first year in The League with crazy mom interviews and Twitter exchanges that can easily ignite the news media.

- Chillin

We are about to start a social science experiment. some parents have been vocal about their college sons, and how they should be used as basketball players. I am not aware of any vocal parents telling NBA franchises what to do. I think we may see a first.

[Acymetric]

Surreal is right.

At this point, regardless of what they actually feel, the family should probably reign this whole thing in. Wendell is about to start a career where he can make a lot, lot, lot of money. They can pick this back up at some later time, but no need to enter his first year in The League with crazy mom interviews and Twitter exchanges that can easily ignite the news media.

- Chillin

The fact that this hasn't really happened explicitly is why I'm not entirely convinced they were misquoted.

[DukieInKansas]

Surreal is right.

At this point, regardless of what they actually feel, the family should probably reign this whole thing in. Wendell is about to start a career where he can make a lot, lot, lot of money. They can pick this back up at some later time, but no need to enter his first year in The League with crazy mom interviews and Twitter exchanges that can easily ignite the news media.

- Chillin


I long for the days when Twitter was not newsworthy.

Best part of going to the twitter exchange - it lead me to Wendell Carter's twitter account and a link to this: https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/wendell-carter-jr-ready-to-fly His Players" Tribune article is about the importance of family - or that is my take on it.

[Jeffrey]

Mrs. Bolden was not particularly thrilled that ol’ Marvin reclassified and ended up coming to Duke? Do you have a link or two to share? Thanks.

No links, which is my point. Mrs. Bolden is not talking to the press and complaining about how Duke and the NCAA have treated her son. Sure, her son was highly ranked out of HS and considered a potential OAD, but Mrs. Bolden did not criticize when Duke brought in Carter and Bagley, for her son's second season.

[nmduke2001]

I don't understand any of this. Your kid was a top seven draft pick. Maybe Wendell's mom wanted Trae Young-like usage?

I really hope Marvin wins rookie of the year.

[Jeffrey]

We are about to start a social science experiment. some parents have been vocal about their college sons, and how they should be used as basketball players. I am not aware of any vocal parents telling NBA franchises what to do. I think we may see a first.

I agree, the Bulls should be second guessing their selection. Duke has recently had many OADs, and the Carter family is the first where every member of the family heard Coach K promise things every other OAD has said he does not. History repeats.

[Acymetric]

I agree, the Bulls should be second guessing their selection. Duke has recently had many OADs, and the Carter family is the first where every member of the family heard Coach K promise things every other OAD has said he does not. History repeats.

Disagree that the Bulls should second guess their pick based on all this (Carter will be a very good NBA player), but agree with the rest. It would be nice to see a more fleshed out response to the article from Carter if it really wasn't representative of what was said or how they feel about Duke/K.

[Truth&Justise]

We are about to start a social science experiment. some parents have been vocal about their college sons, and how they should be used as basketball players. I am not aware of any vocal parents telling NBA franchises what to do. I think we may see a first.

It has happened. Here's a recap of when KJ McDaniels's mom heckled the 76ers from the tenth row and urged them to pass the ball to her son (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2307869-kj-mcdaniels-mom-goes-to-76ers-games-to-root-for-her-son-and-only-her-son). Bonus: here's a thread where she uses praise from Coach K as her baseline for why Brad Brownell should play her son more -- and why she's very upset that her son got drafted by Philly (https://nba.nbcsports.com/2014/11/21/k-j-mcdaniels-mom-slams-76ers-on-twitter/).

Another example, closer to home: Chucky Okafor and Kendall Marshall's dad catching some flack for criticizing the 76ers (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14504776/fathers-kendall-marshall-jahlil-okafor-tweet-criticisms-philadelphia-76ers). Hmmmm, maybe this is just a Philadelphia thing?

But yeah, it gets less press in the NBA because the players are adults with their own careers. No one is wooing parents on recruiting trips anymore.

In any case, my thinking is: let's lay off Wendell's mom. Yes, she's made some veiled criticisms. But Wendell's time at Duke was a success, let's cherish that. Let's not use this minor spat to ruin the memories of a great season together. Better to just let this go.

[CDu]

We are about to start a social science experiment. some parents have been vocal about their college sons, and how they should be used as basketball players. I am not aware of any vocal parents telling NBA franchises what to do. I think we may see a first.

LaVar Ball says hello.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I agree, the Bulls should be second guessing their selection. Duke has recently had many OADs, and the Carter family is the first where every member of the family heard Coach K promise things every other OAD has said he does not. History repeats.

Jeez, really? Because of comments from his mother?

[Jeffrey]

Disagree that the Bulls should second guess their pick based on all this (Carter will be a very good NBA player), but agree with the rest. It would be nice to see a more fleshed out response to the article from Carter if it really wasn't representative of what was said or how they feel about Duke/K.

I agree, "Carter will be a very good NBA player". My opinion is based upon my career experiences. I prefer not to hire people when they complain about a past employer most other people compliment.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The fact that this hasn't really happened explicitly is why I'm not entirely convinced they were misquoted.

....and her first round of slavery comments were on video......much as I want to believe Wendell, I too am not convinced.....

[Jeffrey]

Jeez, really? Because of comments from his mother?

Is his mother the only one who has complained about Bagley's late arrival and promises not kept?

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/06/wendell-carter-jr-sr-dad-coach-k-duke-recruiting-nba-draft-comments-bulls-bagley

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Is his mother the only one who has complained about Bagley's late arrival and promises not kept?

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/06/wendell-carter-jr-sr-dad-coach-k-duke-recruiting-nba-draft-comments-bulls-bagley

So... The mother and the father's comments tell make you want to pass on the player?

I don't understand that line of thought.

[Jeffrey]

So... The mother and the father's comments tell make you want to pass on the player?

I don't understand that line of thought.

As I said, it's based upon my career experiences. We are talking about hiring a teenager (probably a role player) and I would not ignore the mother's and father's comments.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

As I said, it's based upon my career experiences. We are talking about hiring a teenager and I would not ignore the mother's and father's comments.

Fair. In my hiring experiences, it would take something wildly dramatic for me to hold a parent against the hiring of their child. I know a lot of great folks with strange parents.

Each to their own.

[luvdahops]

As I said, it's based upon my career experiences. We are talking about hiring a teenager and I would not ignore the mother's and father's comments.

And FWIW, one of the reasons the Bulls are so high on Wendell was a view that he would be a hard working, low maintenance, no drama kind of player, willing to do the dirty work/whatever it took for the sake of team success, etc. As a Bulls fan, I am still very high on Wendell and expect him to be a great fit. But I could see how the last 48 hours could lead to some second guessing.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Fair. In my hiring experiences, it would take something wildly dramatic for me to hold a parent against the hiring of their child. I know a lot of great folks with strange parents.

Each to their own.

Having second thoughts is the low bar we were discussing here...and having second thoughts is not anything like holding this against the child. It may lead to that with third or fourth thoughts, or more mouth running on the part of Mama Carter...but having some qualms is actually the responsible position. There's a lot of second thoughts that go around, and the long run is a great relationship with the draft pick and the team.

[sagegrouse]

As I said, it's based upon my career experiences. We are talking about hiring a teenager (probably a role player) and I would not ignore the mother's and father's comments.

The Bulls did. And if Kylia Carter spouts off to the Chicago press and media, the opinion writers there will bury her.

[Jeffrey]

Fair. In my hiring experiences, it would take something wildly dramatic for me to hold a parent against the hiring of their child. I know a lot of great folks with strange parents.

Each to their own.

True, but in this case we have many great candidates to pick from in addition to Wendell. It would be a factor in my selection.

If I had already made my selection (such as this case), then I would be second guessing myself.

[Acymetric]

The Bulls did. And if Kylia Carter spouts off to the Chicago press and media, the opinion writers there will bury her.

Well, the comments regarding Duke specifically and team chemistry were made after the draft, so they weren't available to be ignored. That said, I don't think it would have made a difference in their draft pick.

[CDu]

True, but in this case we have many great candidates to pick from in addition to Wendell. It would be a factor in my selection.

Actually, this isn't likely true. There are usually only a handful of impact players in any given draft. That is further limited by a team's particular needs and access (draft spot). For the Bulls, Carter's skill set was exactly what they needed to pair with Markkanen (rebounding and shotblocking along with a really diverse offensive skill set). There wasn't anyone else available at that pick that met that need.

[Jeffrey]

As a Bulls fan, I am still very high on Wendell and expect him to be a great fit.

I agree, now that Butler is gone, the Bulls will be very likely to play zone. How many good M2M defenders do they now have?

[Jeffrey]

Actually, this isn't likely true. There are usually only a handful of impact players in any given draft. That is further limited by a team's particular needs and access (draft spot). For the Bulls, Carter's skill set was exactly what they needed to pair with Markkanen (rebounding and shotblocking along with a really diverse offensive skill set). There wasn't anyone else available at that pick that met that need.

That's true. However, many deals have been made on draft day.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Wendell represented Duke University very well for the first year, both on and off the court. But now it is time for him to tell his parents to say "no comment" and move on. I really don't see what they have to gain from what they are saying. His Duke career is over - time to move on. I have left jobs before where I was absolutely miserable and thought the company was terribly mismanaged. However, in my exit interviews I generally took the high road because as much as I wanted to improve things for my colleagues, I recognized that there was almost no chance that my criticism would create change so why burn bridges. The same applies here.

I think it is highly unlikely to happen, but I am really hoping that Wendell's career does not follow Jahlil's or his mother's head might explode with angst.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Wendell represented Duke University very well for the first year, both on and off the court. But now it is time for him to tell his parents to say "no comment" and move on. I really don't see what they have to gain from what they are saying. His Duke career is over - time to move on. I have left jobs before where I was absolutely miserable and thought the company was terribly mismanaged. However, in my exit interviews I generally took the high road because as much as I wanted to improve things for my colleagues, I recognized that there was almost no chance that my criticism would create change so why burn bridges. The same applies here.

I think it is highly unlikely to happen, but I am really hoping that Wendell's career does not follow Jahlil's or his mother's head might explode with angst.

How many of our parents every did what we asked of them?

Anyways, I'm not even sure what we are discussing any more. Mrs. Carter has strong opinions, many of us disagree with her perspective. We also disagree on whether or not this reflects poorly on K and/or Wendell. Did I cover it?

[CDu]

That's true. However, many deals have been made on draft day.

Deals are easier said than done. The Bulls were rumored to be trying to trade up, but couldn't make it happen. It takes two to tango, and they couldn't find a willing dance partner. So they stayed put and took the guy that was the best fit at that spot. And, ultimately, if the player is the right fit, that's going to trump ancillary concerns about the parents.

I'm a Bulls fan, and I'm not too concerned about those comments. I'm not ignoring them either. But ultimately what I care about is the fit on the court, and I think Carter is a great fit on the court. And if that turns out to be true, I don't think the parents will ultimately be a major issue.

[sagegrouse]

How many of our parents every did what we asked of them?

Anyways, I'm not even sure what we are discussing any more. Mrs. Carter has strong opinions, many of us disagree with her perspective. We also disagree on whether or not this reflects poorly on K and/or Wendell. Did I cover it?

I expect Wendell Jr. and Sr. have told her many, many times to "cool it" -- with evident lack of success.

I think we should salute the three topics that are helping the Board get through the summer doldrums: (1) Kylia Carter, (2) the NBA draft, and (3) Duke baseball. Two were unexpected.

[Acymetric]

I expect Wendell Jr. and Sr. have told her many, many times to "cool it" -- with evident lack of success.

I think we should salute the three topics that are helping the Board get through the summer doldrums: (1) Kylia Carter, (2) the NBA draft, and (3) Duke baseball. Two were unexpected.

Except that Wendell Sr. has said some of the same things as Kylia. See the link from Jeffrey's post:


Is his mother the only one who has complained about Bagley's late arrival and promises not kept?

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/06/wendell-carter-jr-sr-dad-coach-k-duke-recruiting-nba-draft-comments-bulls-bagley

[Neals384]

There is a KEY difference, though.

We're criticizing as fans. That's short for "fanatic" so we're expected to be irrational.

The Carters are criticizing as former player and parents of former player. There's a level of decorum that applies there that doesn't really apply to fans, especially on a message board.

Would we be as up in arms if Ms. Carter started a thread under the handle "MsBlueLipstick" in this forum to argue her son't merits? Of course not. We'd just have a hundred page thread about it and the national media wouldn't bat an eyelash.

Yikes! Please don’t give her any ideas!

[Neals384]

My fav comment from that Twitter feed:

“And the nominees for the 2018 LaVar Ball Sports Parent of the Year Award are.....”

[Jeffrey]

Deals are easier said than done. The Bulls were rumored to be trying to trade up, but couldn't make it happen. It takes two to tango, and they couldn't find a willing dance partner. So they stayed put and took the guy that was the best fit at that spot. And, ultimately, if the player is the right fit, that's going to trump ancillary concerns about the parents.

I'm a Bulls fan, and I'm not too concerned about those comments. I'm not ignoring them either. But ultimately what I care about is the fit on the court, and I think Carter is a great fit on the court. And if that turns out to be true, I don't think the parents will ultimately be a major issue.

I would have tried very hard to trade up to Bagley.

If you were my business partner, I would concede due to great respect for your opinion.

[luvdahops]

I agree, now that Butler is gone, the Bulls will be very likely to play zone. How many good M2M defenders do they now have?

Well, PG Kris Dunn is widely regarded as a strong defender, Markannen and Portis are very solid "switching bigs" (though neither blocks many shots), and David Nwaba defended even top tier wings pretty well. Carter will be an instant upgrade over Robin Lopez and Christiano Felicio at the 5 in my view, as he is a better rebounder and rim protetcor, and likely no worse in terms of lateral mobility. And #22 pick Chandler Hutchison is viewed as a strong potential two-way contributor, though I've never seen him play. But it is admittedly not a very long list.

[jv001]

I wonder what the posts on DBR would be like if this came from one of the Cheat players and their parents? Would many on here take the high road with Ms. Tarheel.:cool: I will keep my opinion/answer to myself but I have a good idea. I'm through with the discussion and hope to hear some more good Duke football news. GoDuke!

[weezie]

Well no matter what Mom, Dad, Wendell or any other Carters say now, the rubber meets the road in Chitown. The front office there, or anywhere else in the NBA, won't give toot one about hurt feelings, miffed expectations or sour grapes. It's put up and/or shut up time when training camp opens.
And go Pistons

[proelitedota]

I wonder what the posts on DBR would be like if this came from one of the Cheat players and their parents? Would many on here take the high road with Ms. Tarheel.:cool: I will keep my opinion/answer to myself but I have a good idea. I'm through with the discussion and hope to hear some more good Duke football news. GoDuke!


I remember laughing at Ms. Strickland for her 80 million dollar comments.

[Sir Stealth]

I want to give Wendell the benefit of the doubt and not be too hard on this, but I can't completely separate him from his parents comments - he has been a participant in these interviews and does not seem to be discouraging this repeated public airing of grievances. Now he is saying that his mother has been misquoted, but these are intelligent people who have sought the media attention and know what they are saying. I wouldn't even mind some typical parent criticism about usage to advocate for their son as being able to do more (although honestly he already got to show a lot, looked great, and was drafted accordingly), but the fact that these comments are geared negatively in part toward having to be a teammate with Marvin is the most irritating with me. I know it's not really personal against Marvin, but still - they were supposed to both be working toward the same goal and often spoke about a brotherhood, there shouldn't be any indication that you wish he hadn't even joined the team. I think you're responsible if you're part of public comments about a teammate being there and it's portrayed a little more negatively than you or your family intended.

[devilsince1977]

Well no matter what Mom, Dad, Wendell or any other Carters say now, the rubber meets the road in Chitown. The front office there, or anywhere else in the NBA, won't give toot one about hurt feelings, miffed expectations or sour grapes. It's put up and/or shut up time when training camp opens.
And go Pistons

If you are not sure about the accuracy of this comment, just ask Mikal Bridges.

[Billy Dat]

Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander lead today's CBS Eye on College Basketball Podcast with a discussion of this story.

In short, they basically find little to no fault with K or the Duke staff. Parrish says that unless there is evidence that they told the Carters that there was no way that Bagley was going to reclassify, and then he did, then it's a decision every staff in the country would make. Based on the timeline of Carter's commitment, there was likely no indication that a Bagley reclass was in the mix. They acknowledge that we'll likely never know everything that was promised or said between the staff and the family, and that K will likely say nothing about it. They agree that others will try and use it against Duke during recruiting. Norlander is going to have a column up about it sometime today...he tends to be more critical than Parrish when it comes to K so we'll see what it says. His primary surprise was that a parent would come at K that hard, considering that he thinks people rarely question his character.

[Billy Dat]

The Norlander story
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/kylia-carters-reported-criticism-of-coach-k-pulls-back-the-curtain-on-recruitings-ugly-reality/

[Acymetric]

The Norlander story
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/kylia-carters-reported-criticism-of-coach-k-pulls-back-the-curtain-on-recruitings-ugly-reality/

The actual headline "Kylia Carter's Reported Criticism of Coach K Pulls Back the Curtain on Recruiting's Complicated Reality" is significantly better than the headline used for the URL (which replaces "complicated" with "ugly"). Must have been a late change.

[rsvman]

I long for the days when Twitter was not newsworthy.

It still isn't.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The actual headline "Kylia Carter's Reported Criticism of Coach K Pulls Back the Curtain on Recruiting's Complicated Reality" is significantly better than the headline used for the URL (which replaces "complicated" with "ugly"). Must have been a late change.

"Pulling back the curtain" kind of assumes what she is saying is correct....and we know at least some of it is not.

[duke79]

The Norlander story
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/kylia-carters-reported-criticism-of-coach-k-pulls-back-the-curtain-on-recruitings-ugly-reality/

Overall, I thought a well thought out and well written analysis of what happened (or might have happened - only a few people know the full and accurate story of what happened in the whole process). No doubt that Carter momma and poppa are angry and upset with the way everything played out (and maybe Wendell is angry too? Who knows?) and I can understand their position - they thought their son was going to be the alpha male of the Duke BB team (perhaps initially encouraged by Coach K and his assistants during Wendell's recruiting process?) and then, all of a sudden he was no longer the alpha male (although I'm not sure it really hurt his draft position - it's not like he fell to the second round because of Bagley's great season). But Duke would have been insane NOT to go after Bagley once it became apparent that he could re-classify. Hell, even the "I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this." hating lunatics on the IC board agree on this.

I would put the whole episode under the category of: "It's hard to please everybody ALL the time". Life goes on and the Carters will have more money than 99.9% of people in this country. I don't really feel sorry for them.

[plimnko]

Looking at K's record, I find it hard to believe he mislead the Carters in respect to Wendell's recruitment.........just my opinion. I appreciate what Wendell did last year. I'm sorry thing have come to this point. I just hope this is the only time the realities of life don't go the Carters' way.

[camion]

Looking at K's record, I find it hard to believe he mislead the Carters in respect to Wendell's recruitment.....just my opinion. I appreciate what Wendell did last year. I'm sorry thing have come to this point. I just hope this is the only time the realities of life don't go the Carters' way.

What is said and what is heard may be similar, but they are never identical. Sometimes they are orthogonal* and maybe this is one of those times.


* I don't know that I've ever used "orthogonal" in a basketball thread before. The nerd in me is pleased. :)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

What is said and what is heard may be similar, but they are never identical. Sometimes they are orthogonal* and maybe this is one of those times.


* I don't know that I've ever used "orthogonal" in a basketball thread before. The nerd in me is pleased. :)

Ornithological? Of a feather?

*got nuthin

[Fish80]

Ornithological? Of a feather?

*got nuthin

No, ortho from the Greek for eye and gonal from I can’t see where you went.

[weezie]

Omg, poster upstream was right...ickhole Carolina board grudgingly agrees with some of us, edited for finer sensibilities," These people are ridiculous. It’s K’s program and he doesn’t have to run it by players’ parents when he’s out there recruiting. And when sign with a blue blood, you have to know there will be other really good or even great players on the team. So this where entitled kids come from, entitled parents... ungrateful so and sos."

And now I need a good stiff drink.

[miramar]

I have no idea what was said and not said before the freshmen got to Durham, but it must have been very difficult to get this group of players and parents on the same page. Coach K and the rest of the staff must have had to work overtime to get the team within one made shot of the Final Four.

As far as the Carter family is concerned, they should be overjoyed that Wendell was taken #7 and just leave it at that. I only hope that Coach K avoids Chicago Bulls games so that he never has to address this topic again with Mrs. Carter.

Next play.

[UrinalCake]

What I find difficult to believe is this notion that the offense would have been built around Carter, even before Bagley chose to come. K’s offense is always built around the guards and wings. And even if he told the Carters that Wendell would be the featured big man, he doesn’t ever promise a certain number of minutes or shots or touches. Plenty of other recruits and past players have made this point - K tells you from day one that you’ll have to earn it.

[Bluedog]

The thing I don't get is, don't players want to win?! I would think for any player with that mindset, having Bagley come early would be HUGELY welcome and they'd be psyched about that! Am I insane?

This just clearly shows that some OADs just use the program as a platform to show their stuff to the NBA and the season's results are secondary to that goal (but sometimes go hand in hand since a better team outcome often also looks good for the individual). And with all that said, Carter went #7 in the draft! It's not like NBA execs are stupid and didn't realize he had to defer somewhat to Bagley. His draft stock wasn't hurt at all.

So, more than the comments about Bagley/K/NCAA, I may be more perturbed at the fact that this is just further evidence that many guys -- and their influencers/parents -- are way more focused on "what's it in for me" and don't care all that much about winning...which sucks. There definitely has been a shift recently.

[gep]

What I find difficult to believe is this notion that the offense would have been built around Carter, even before Bagley chose to come. K’s offense is always built around the guards and wings. And even if he told the Carters that Wendell would be the featured big man, he doesn’t ever promise a certain number of minutes or shots or touches. Plenty of other recruits and past players have made this point - K tells you from day one that you’ll have to earn it.

I get this... "featured big man" is vastly different than "featured man" (big or not so big). My recollection is that Bobby Hurley and Kyrie Irving as incoming freshmen as the "featured man" are very rare.

[Saratoga2]

The thing I don't get is, don't players want to win?! I would think for any player with that mindset, having Bagley come early would be HUGELY welcome and they'd be psyched about that! Am I insane?

This just clearly shows that some OADs just use the program as a platform to show their stuff to the NBA and the season's results are secondary to that goal (but sometimes go hand in hand since a better team outcome often also looks good for the individual). And with all that said, Carter went #7 in the draft! It's not like NBA execs are stupid and didn't realize he had to defer somewhat to Bagley. His draft stock wasn't hurt at all.

So, more than the comments about Bagley/K/NCAA, I may be more perturbed at the fact that this is just further evidence that many guys -- and their influencers/parents -- are way more focused on "what's it in for me" and don't care all that much about winning...which sucks. There definitely has been a shift recently.


Time for her to take her petulance to the NBA. It won't play as well there as here.

[lotusland]

I get this... "featured big man" is vastly different than "featured man" (big or not so big). My recollection is that Bobby Hurley and Kyrie Irving as incoming freshmen as the "featured man" are very rare.

Duke is recruiting players primarily concerned with how their 6 mos at Duke will benefit their pro career. It can’t be a surprise that players and parents evaluate that 6mos on how they perceive that it did or did not benefit their pro career.

We have 4 more now who expect to be NBA All Stars in a few months unless Duke ruins it for them.

[weezie]

Time for her to take her petulance to the NBA. It won't play as well there as here.


It won't play at all, you're right. When all is said and done, she'll be a forgotten footnote. Absolutely nobody will care about her windy comments in the Second City.


Especially now that she's bagged up all the Duke gear and sent it to Goodwill.

[budwom]

David Haugh of the Chicago Tribune has a nice article up on how Mom should be thanking K for how he handled Wendell...also pointed out she had nothing but praise for Duke at a May public forum.

[DevilHorse]

It is interesting to see how we are left with the different impressions of parents of these wonderful players based on their commentary/performance during and after their sons' tenure.
Of course, it is the media that chooses to focus in on particular parents because of their photogenic qualities, passionate stances, or provocative views.
You can compare recent experiences of visible parents like Chukwudi Okafor (who seemed to enjoy and appreciate the experience) vs. Kylia Carter (who seemed to feel better opportunities could have been had).
Most parents flew under the radar as far as being anything other than boosters for the team and their kids.

Larry
DevilHorse

[miramar]

So, more than the comments about Bagley/K/NCAA, I may be more perturbed at the fact that this is just further evidence that many guys -- and their influencers/parents -- are way more focused on "what's it in for me" and don't care all that much about winning...which sucks. There definitely has been a shift recently.

I think it might just be a tectonic shift now that you mention it.

2018 Mrs. Carter
2017 Frank Jackson, likely influenced by Mr. Jackson (just imagine what he would have said about Bagley's haircut!)
2016 Derryck Thornton, definitely influenced by Mr. Thornton and Uncle Trainer

I guess every parent can't be like Dell and Sonia Curry. Oh, the good ol' days (all of five years ago).

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I think it might just be a tectonic shift now that you mention it.

2018 Mrs. Carter
2017 Frank Jackson, likely influenced by Mr. Jackson (just imagine what he would have said about Bagley's haircut!)
2016 Derryck Thornton, definitely influenced by Mr. Thornton and Uncle Trainer

I guess every parent can't be like Dell and Sonia Curry. Oh, the good ol' days (all of five years ago).

Agreed. I know Coach K had some bad experiences with stage parents in the past (such as Burgess, I believe) and has generally tried to avoid them but he has not been as successful lately. But clearly Tyus Jones' family was happy as they sent a second kid to Duke. As mentioned above, Mr. Okafor seemed very happy with how things went for Jahlil. And Bolden's career has not gone exactly as expected but his parents have stayed out of the press. The Duval's would arguably have much more of a reason to be unhappy but have also been silent as far as I know.

[UrinalCake]

Another thing that comes to mind is that we heavily recruited Mo Bamba and at the time Carter committed we were still very much in the running to land him. He and Carter openly talked about possibly playing together, and we were one of his final schools when he ultimately chose Texas. Had Bamba come, Carter’s playing time would have been severely cut as they both played the 5 and would have had a harder time playing together than Carter and Bagley. Carter would have been asked to defend more on the perimeter even in a zone, which would have severely exposed him. Point being, the idea that he expected to have the inside all to himself and that Duke made promises not to bring in any other big men seems like an absolute fallacy to me.

[luvdahops]

David Haugh of the Chicago Tribune has a nice article up on how Mom should be thanking K for how he handled Wendell...also pointed out she had nothing but praise for Duke at a May public forum.

Link to the Haugh article. He's a pretty middle of the road guy generally, so the pointed criticism here says something about the reaction among Chicago sports media.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-spt-bulls-wendell-carter-parents-duke-haugh-20180627-story.html

[ChillinDuke]

The thing I don't get is, don't players want to win?! I would think for any player with that mindset, having Bagley come early would be HUGELY welcome and they'd be psyched about that! Am I insane?

This just clearly shows that some OADs just use the program as a platform to show their stuff to the NBA and the season's results are secondary to that goal (but sometimes go hand in hand since a better team outcome often also looks good for the individual). And with all that said, Carter went #7 in the draft! It's not like NBA execs are stupid and didn't realize he had to defer somewhat to Bagley. His draft stock wasn't hurt at all.

So, more than the comments about Bagley/K/NCAA, I may be more perturbed at the fact that this is just further evidence that many guys -- and their influencers/parents -- are way more focused on "what's it in for me" and don't care all that much about winning...which sucks. There definitely has been a shift recently.

I'm with you, Blue. That's the same thing that bothers me.

It's hard for me to understand what someone would take exception with. Even if Wendell wasn't "the beast" in the post, he still was objectively "a beast"! He was totally involved in the offense, was excellent all season long, a double-double machine, people spoke highly about him right alongside Bagley in almost every telecast. The guy got drafted #7. It's hard to understand what more a college basketball player could want.

But back to your point, I agree that there has been a shift. K adjusted to the OAD era, but if I were him I would think it's time for another adjustment.

- Chillin

[UrinalCake]

David Haugh of the Chicago Tribune has a nice article up on how Mom should be thanking K for how he handled Wendell...also pointed out she had nothing but praise for Duke at a May public forum.

Definitely seeing some pushback from the media, defending K and the Duke program.

Michael DeCourcy
@tsnmike
Wendell Carter was the No. 7 prospect in the 2017 high school class. Mitchell Robinson was No. 8. One went Duke and became the No. 7 pick in #NBA⁠ ⁠ Draft. The other passed up college, trained privately and went 36th. Guess whose family is complaining.

[moonpie23]

there's nothing quite like dealing with a parent/family member/"in-group" who thinks the talent has a "natural" ascension to an expected level of success....and when that expected level of success doesn't arrive, the finger pointing and blame is clearly directed at the "handlers" of the "talent".....i mean, just LOOK at that TALENT!! how could it possibly be that their success level isn't guaranteed??.......it must have been the handlers..

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Definitely seeing some pushback from the media, defending K and the Duke program.

Michael DeCourcy
@tsnmike
Wendell Carter was the No. 7 prospect in the 2017 high school class. Mitchell Robinson was No. 8. One went Duke and became the No. 7 pick in #NBA⁠ ⁠ Draft. The other passed up college, trained privately and went 36th. Guess whose family is complaining.

And yet, that mental lightweight Lauren Brownlow of WRAL is criticizing Duke and backing up Mama Carter.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I'm with you, Blue. That's the same thing that bothers me.

It's hard for me to understand what someone would take exception with. Even if Wendell wasn't "the beast" in the post, he still was objectively "a beast"! He was totally involved in the offense, was excellent all season long, a double-double machine, people spoke highly about him right alongside Bagley in almost every telecast. The guy got drafted #7. It's hard to understand what more a college basketball player could want.

But back to your point, I agree that there has been a shift. K adjusted to the OAD era, but if I were him I would think it's time for another adjustment.

- Chillin

His next adjustment will be retirement IMO.

[Jeffrey]

His next adjustment will be retirement IMO.

Agreed, IMO, the OAD strategy is solid. If Kyrie had a healthy season and Duval lived up to expectations, then there would probably be many OAD banners in the Duke rafters.

[Acymetric]

And yet, that mental lightweight Lauren Brownlow of WRAL is criticizing Duke and backing up Mama Carter.

Be nice, I like Brownlow. She's generally favors Duke and State more than Carolina. Reading the article, I didn't really take it as criticism of Duke anyway, seemed fairly balanced (and likely accurate).

https://www.wralsportsfan.com/twitter-mailbag-duke-s-defense-wendell-hot-dogs-and-more/17661416/

[CDu]

Mama/Papa Bear's gonna do what Mama/Papa Bear's gonna do.

[CDu]

Be nice, I like Brownlow. She's generally favors Duke and State more than Carolina. Reading the article, I didn't really take it as criticism of Duke anyway, seemed fairly balanced (and likely accurate).

https://www.wralsportsfan.com/twitter-mailbag-duke-s-defense-wendell-hot-dogs-and-more/17661416/

Brownlow is a UNC grad, so I think there is some underlying Duke angst in there. And I've definitely heard anti-Duke comments from her before. If anything though, the team she favors most in recent years has been UVa (she is a big proponent of their tempo-adjusted stats).

[Jeffrey]

Mama/Papa Bear's gonna do what Mama/Papa Bear's gonna do.

Have you been watching the Berenstain Bears?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Be nice, I like Brownlow. She's generally favors Duke and State more than Carolina. Reading the article, I didn't really take it as criticism of Duke anyway, seemed fairly balanced (and likely accurate).

https://www.wralsportsfan.com/twitter-mailbag-duke-s-defense-wendell-hot-dogs-and-more/17661416/

I agree that this seems like a much more even take than most I have seen in the media and here.

[CDu]

I would have tried very hard to trade up to Bagley.

Rumors were that the Bulls were indeed interested in Bagley. But the highest they seemed able to target was the #4 spot, and Bagley was gone by then.


If you were my business partner, I would concede due to great respect for your opinion.

You're too kind. I hope I'm right on this one. Nobody gets them 100%, though, and I've been wrong plenty. The hope is to hit more often than you miss. ;)


Agreed, IMO, the OAD strategy is solid. If Kyrie had a healthy season and Duval lived up to expectations, then there would probably be many OAD banners in the Duke rafters.

Not to mention the ridiculous injury woes of the 2017 season.

The strategy of recruiting a team with multiple expected one-and-dones has faired pretty well nationally. It is not without it's warts though, most notably a learning curve and some unpleasant early-season losses. The hope is that your team is healthy and clicking by tourney time. If it is, having 3-4 elite talents makes a huge difference.

The other challenge is maintaining enough continuity around the one-and-dones to fill in the roster gaps. This year will be the first big leadership void test for Duke in the one-and-done era. For the last several years, we've had enough proven juniors and seniors with big-game experience to provide that leadership. Next year, we'll be relying on juniors Bolden and DeLaurier (neither of whom have a ton of experience) to make major strides to fill that void. And after that, it gets dicey the following year if either or both leave early, because then we're hoping a guy like O'Connell makes major progress.

Fingers crossed.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Rumors were that the Bulls were indeed interested in Bagley. But the highest they seemed able to target was the #4 spot, and Bagley was gone by then.



You're too kind. I hope I'm right on this one. Nobody gets them 100%, though, and I've been wrong plenty. The hope is to hit more often than you miss. ;)



Not to mention the ridiculous injury woes of the 2017 season.

The strategy of recruiting a team with multiple expected one-and-dones has faired pretty well nationally. It is not without it's warts though, most notably a learning curve and some unpleasant early-season losses. The hope is that your team is healthy and clicking by tourney time. If it is, having 3-4 elite talents makes a huge difference.

The other challenge is maintaining enough continuity around the one-and-dones to fill in the roster gaps. This year will be the first big leadership void test for Duke in the one-and-done era. For the last several years, we've had enough proven juniors and seniors with big-game experience to provide that leadership. Next year, we'll be relying on juniors Bolden and DeLaurier (neither of whom have a ton of experience) to make major strides to fill that void. And after that, it gets dicey the following year if either or both leave early, because then we're hoping a guy like O'Connell makes major progress.

Fingers crossed.

A problem with the OAD is sheer volume for your hit rate. If you are recruiting standard four year guys, let's say 2 or 3 a year, that 10-12 recruits over four years. If one or two aren't home runs, no biggie, there's other guys to fill in. An 85% success rate will keep you well stocked.

If you are replacing 4 or 5 of your starters every year, that's 20 guys, and any miss (or injury) means a hole in your roster for a season. Every player loss seems magnified.

[CDu]

A problem with the OAD is sheer volume for your hit rate. If you are recruiting standard four year guys, let's say 2 or 3 a year, that 10-12 recruits over four years. If one or two aren't home runs, no biggie, there's other guys to fill in. An 85% success rate will keep you well stocked.

If you are replacing 4 or 5 of your starters every year, that's 20 guys, and any miss (or injury) means a hole in your roster for a season. Every player loss seems magnified.

True, but the counterargument to that is that there is not likely a formula of standard four-year guys with high hit rates. And if you hit on a "standard four-year guy" with a home run, he's probably not going to be a four-year guy (see, Kennard). And if you have a model like that where you're getting four-year guys with low hit rates AND one or more of your hits leaves early, you're in real trouble.

And you're more likely to not have a hit with a guy who wasn't as highly-rated out of high school than you are a top-10 recruit. We've had very few (healthy) top-10 recruits who weren't star players as freshmen. So getting those top-10 guys has been a recipe for getting immediately good players. Our success rate with guys further down is much lower.

[SavDukeGrad]

Another thing that comes to mind is that we heavily recruited Mo Bamba and at the time Carter committed we were still very much in the running to land him. He and Carter openly talked about possibly playing together, and we were one of his final schools when he ultimately chose Texas. Had Bamba come, Carter’s playing time would have been severely cut as they both played the 5 and would have had a harder time playing together than Carter and Bagley. Carter would have been asked to defend more on the perimeter even in a zone, which would have severely exposed him. Point being, the idea that he expected to have the inside all to himself and that Duke made promises not to bring in any other big men seems like an absolute fallacy to me.

I was thinking the same thing. Wendell committed to Duke in November, 2016 and signed during the early period. Duke was pursuing Mo Bamba right up until he committed to Texas in May, 2017, and Wendell's family had to know this. How would they have felt had Bamba come to Duke? It kind of sounds like they are rewriting history, and I am not sure what they stand to gain from this since Wendell's Duke career seems to have worked out well for all parties.

Mike DeCourcy's Sporting News article:
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/wendell-carter-family-duke-marvin-bagley-mike-krzyzewski-chicago-bulls/1x9tur13uhtf41jnvhajbuf6e3

[ChillinDuke]

...

The other challenge is maintaining enough continuity around the one-and-dones to fill in the roster gaps. This year will be the first big leadership void test for Duke in the one-and-done era. For the last several years, we've had enough proven juniors and seniors with big-game experience to provide that leadership. Next year, we'll be relying on juniors Bolden and DeLaurier (neither of whom have a ton of experience) to make major strides to fill that void. And after that, it gets dicey the following year if either or both leave early, because then we're hoping a guy like O'Connell makes major progress.

Fingers crossed.

Agreed, there is a leadership void this year. I feel good about Javin, though. He seemed more demonstrative last year, and he seemed talkative in huddles and very engaged. With another offseason under his belt, I think we can reasonably count on him to be a leader. Whether he's a leader by example/skill (say, Quinn Cook) vs by seniority (say, Josh Hairston) is a main question for me and would be the centerpoint of one of my Phase bullets. I definitely, definitely prefer leaders by example/skill.

Marques I'm not as sold on in a leadership capacity, mainly because I just haven't seen evidence of it. Maybe he steps into that role nicely this year, but it's yet to be seen.

I'd be surprised if Javin made such a jump this year that he was drafted after the season. If you were to tell me today that Javin would leave next year and be drafted in, say, the top 35, I'd take that performance and whatever end-of-season results come with it.

Re: 2019, it definitely gets dicier. However, I again like what I've seen out of AOC in terms of being engaged and demonstrative in his fairly limited freshman minutes. If Jack White can give us anything rotation-wise by that year, I think he can play second fiddle leader for sure. But the longer you go out, the more unknowns there are - which cuts both ways. Maybe people leave early, but maybe we get a transfer. Maybe someone unexpected ascends nicely like, say, Goldwire. Maybe someone stays longer than we thought (lol @ OAD).

Finally! I got an offseason post in!!! I'll start moving over to the offseason thread now...

- Chillin

[yancem]

I was thinking the same thing. Wendell committed to Duke in November, 2016 and signed during the early period. Duke was pursuing Mo Bamba right up until he committed to Texas in May, 2017, and Wendell's family had to know this. How would they have felt had Bamba come to Duke? It kind of sounds like they are rewriting history, and I am not sure what they stand to gain from this since Wendell's Duke career seems to have worked out well for all parties.

Mike DeCourcy's Sporting News article:
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/wendell-carter-family-duke-marvin-bagley-mike-krzyzewski-chicago-bulls/1x9tur13uhtf41jnvhajbuf6e3

There is a slight difference between Bamba and Bagley though. Bamba would have erased some of Carter's defensive lapses on the perimeter while providing more touches for Carter on the offensive side of the ball. I think that Carter was hoping to play more 4 and less 5 so Bamba would have been seen by the Carters as a better fit but I do agree that Carter struggled gaurding on the perimeter so I'm not sure how that would have worked out. Also, Bagley was great but did take the ball out of Carters hands from time to time.


Agreed, there is a leadership void this year. I feel good about Javin, though. He seemed more demonstrative last year, and he seemed talkative in huddles and very engaged. With another offseason under his belt, I think we can reasonably count on him to be a leader. Whether he's a leader by example/skill (say, Quinn Cook) vs by seniority (say, Josh Hairston) is a main question for me and would be the centerpoint of one of my Phase bullets. I definitely, definitely prefer leaders by example/skill.

Marques I'm not as sold on in a leadership capacity, mainly because I just haven't seen evidence of it. Maybe he steps into that role nicely this year, but it's yet to be seen.

I'd be surprised if Javin made such a jump this year that he was drafted after the season. If you were to tell me today that Javin would leave next year and be drafted in, say, the top 35, I'd take that performance and whatever end-of-season results come with it.

Re: 2019, it definitely gets dicier. However, I again like what I've seen out of AOC in terms of being engaged and demonstrative in his fairly limited freshman minutes. If Jack White can give us anything rotation-wise by that year, I think he can play second fiddle leader for sure. But the longer you go out, the more unknowns there are - which cuts both ways. Maybe people leave early, but maybe we get a transfer. Maybe someone unexpected ascends nicely like, say, Goldwire. Maybe someone stays longer than we thought (lol @ OAD).

Finally! I got an offseason post in!!! I'll start moving over to the offseason thread now...

- Chillin

For next year, I think that Barrett is going to be an excellent leader for a freshman and Jones probably will be too. I think their maturity will be kind of like Davis and Gilchrist were for KY back in 2012.

[UrinalCake]

Calipari says he expects balanced scoring next year, 6 or 7 guys in double figures with nobody averaging 25ppg. So I guess I should expect PJ Washington’s mother to blast him for taking on Reid Travis and therefore lying to her poor baby.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/23936396/kentucky-john-calipari-wants-6-7-players-double-figures

[weezie]

...their photogenic qualities, passionate stances, or provocative views...


Uh, thanks DevilHorse! I deserve those compliments. :cool:

[cato]

Time for her to take her petulance to the NBA. It won't play as well there as here.

I dunno. I have a hard time imaging Bulls fans spending pages and pages venting their spleens at Mrs. Carter.

[rsvman]

Anybody think there is a more generalizable problem here, perhaps, or is it just me?

Maybe this is just the "get off my lawn" in me, but I think, generally speaking, that parents these days don't really prepare their kids to be independent adults as quickly as they used to. At 18, if you did your job correctly, your "child" is now an "adult," and should be capable of thinking things through and making his/her own decisions; it seems that there is nowhere near as much emphasis placed on this as there used to be.

Not saying that Wendell isn't well spoken, intelligent, and perfectly capable of speaking for himself. I'm saying that the parents don't seem to think of him as such. He's likely much better prepared for the real world than they think he is.

And if a parent had properly prepared a child for becoming an adult, they would appropriately back up and away from their son/daughter, allowing him/her to go ahead and function as an adult.


Maybe it's not so much that parents are preparing their children to be adults as much as it is that parents are not actually allowing it to happen when the time comes. The time for a parent to speak with a sports coach about their son's/daughter's usage is when the kid is 8 or 9 years old and playing in rec league, and maybe even then only when there are other circumstances, such as mental or physical disabilities that the coach needs to know about. When I put my kids into rec league ball, I told them to listen to their coach and to do what they were told. If they played a lot, great. If that sat the bench, I told them to keep working hard in practice and then they would get more PT.

[Acymetric]

Anybody think there is a more generalizable problem here, perhaps, or is it just me?

Maybe this is just the "get off my lawn" in me, but I think, generally speaking, that parents these days don't really prepare their kids to be independent adults as quickly as they used to. At 18, if you did your job correctly, your "child" is now an "adult," and should be capable of thinking things through and making his/her own decisions; it seems that there is nowhere near as much emphasis placed on this as there used to be.

Not saying that Wendell isn't well spoken, intelligent, and perfectly capable of speaking for himself. I'm saying that the parents don't seem to think of him as such. He's likely much better prepared for the real world than they think he is.

And if a parent had properly prepared a child for becoming an adult, they would appropriately back up and away from their son/daughter, allowing him/her to go ahead and function as an adult.


Maybe it's not so much that parents are preparing their children to be adults as much as it is that parents are not actually allowing it to happen when the time comes. The time for a parent to speak with a sports coach about their son's/daughter's usage is when the kid is 8 or 9 years old and playing in rec league, and maybe even then only when there are other circumstances, such as mental or physical disabilities that the coach needs to know about. When I put my kids into rec league ball, I told them to listen to their coach and to do what they were told. If they played a lot, great. If that sat the bench, I told them to keep working hard in practice and then they would get more PT.

Does the term "helicopter parents" come to mind?

[Duke79UNLV77]

I disagree with Ms. Carter for reasons stated by others above. I don't hold it too much against her because a parent can be emotionally protective of her child. Still, the irony with their throwing around accusations of lying is that I am convinced the Carters were lying when they put on the show of Wendell agonizing over whether to return for his sophomore year and Mrs. Carter encouraging him to do so. That would make no sense, given everything else she has said about college and Duke. I also am suspicious as to whether they agonized over the choice to go to Harvard. It seems they are at least partly motivated by getting attention for Wendell and making him seem unique, when he will do just fine letting his play and natural intelligence speak for themselves.

[dudog84]

The comparison to the most obnoxious sports father in generations is beyond the pale (I bet Levar has already trademarked that, in fact).

You may not agree with Mrs. Carter, but she has a right to speak her mind. Her experience is far flung from any of ours, and she isn't an idiot. Maybe it's some sort of motivation or branding, or sour grapes, but maybe - just maybe - she is sharing her authentic experience. Had Bagley not reclassified late in the summer, would Carter have had more touches and been able to showcase his skills better? That's without debate. Is that the objective of any K team? Of course not.

As a mother is she entitled to have her opinion and to share that opinion? Yes.

Fans and posters calling her out and comparing her to hideous examples like Levar just because she is stating her truth feels wrong to me. Wendell chose Duke, was by all accounts a stand up human being and the most academically inclined OAD we have ever had.

On this board, we who have little to no grounds to do so lambast Coach K for defensive schemes, end of game decisions, time outs, and all manner of other decisions.

Semi Ojeleye's parents had a bad experience at Duke. The Carter parents feel Wendell got a raw deal from Duke and the NCAA.

While I would trade both my arms to get a chance to play for K at Duke, pretending that every player has a blissful experience is pretty naive.

I got blasted on this board last time I attempted to defend Mrs Carter's choice of words, so I won't get a lot of support this time either.

Salesforce is the 2018 Best Company to Work for on Forbes. Do you think every employee has nothing but positive things to say?


Love this post. I love Duke basketball. I think Coach K is a legend. I've spent 6 years at Duke. Durham is the fabulous place to live. I think DBR is an educated, engaged community.

But folks around here treat Coach K and our players like they are their own kids. In other words, any criticism towards Coach K or Duke basketball is completely wrong, unwarranted, and you should be sent to the 7th layer of hell for saying so. Yet, when a mother speaks up about her real own kid, folks flip out. But I get it. It's fanhood. It's irrationale.

I don't like what Mrs. Carter says, but I don't think she's wrong nor do I think she should remain silent. Due to the immense talent on last year's team in addition to Bagley being an incredible talent, I would argue that no player other than Bagley showed their true potential (IMO, Grayson's performance this year didn't warrant the 21nd pick in the draft. But Grayson clearly has more potential than what he showed). Carter most certainly had more to show but didn't or couldn't due to the system Coach K played.


I would suggest that Mrs Carter's experiences make her more of an expert than 95% of us on this board. And I would also say her bias towards her son is equalled by our bias towards defending (sometimes blindly) our program.

Didn’t know whether I wanted to wade back into this, but I had some thoughts bouncing around in my head and the only way to make it stop is to let them out. So here goes.

Everything is debatable. Experts are not always right...especially if there is bias. I'm not even sure what "inherent validity" means (I read that somewhere but got tired of marking quotes, and this post is meant to address several things since written).

I am not in the least a blind defender of either my alma mater or its basketball program. I strongly believe that Duke, given its stature as a University, should not be participating in a one-and-done strategy. But it is Coach K’s program and he can do what he wants. He’s done a lot to raise the profile of our school, although I believe our standing in the world still relies on academics and not basketball. I doubt anyone at the University would challenge him. I also acknowledge it is difficult to turn down the best talent, and I do not blame the kids in the least for chasing their dream and the money. I would do the same.

Re the Carters: Wendell seems like a good kid being put in a spot by his mother. But he’s also an adult now. He’d better be careful saying his mother was misquoted, because if that reporter wants to keep his reputation he surely has a tape recording. And even if it’s not word-for-word, the sentiment is certainly there. Coach K is famous for not promising anything. I will defend him (blindly?) here, I don’t believe for a second that he dealt underhandedly with the Carters. Of course he took Marvin when he became available. And if Wendell didn’t want to compete against Marvin he’s in a tough spot, because he’s going to see a lot of Marvin-types in his future. The best of the best.

There’s also an argument to be made that Marvin helped Wendell, drawing most of the other team’s attention. Wendell is excellent, but I’m not sure he’s ever going to be any team’s undisputed #1 star. He probably should be showcasing that he can play very well with the type of talent he will be seeing every day in the NBA.

Mrs. Carter calling Coach K “shady”, saying “we were lied to”, and being “p*$$ed” that Duke tried to put together the best team under the rules will bring out a LaVar Ball comparison from me. Saying “let Marvin have all the damn points” and calling her 19-year-old son “my baby” tells you everything you need to know about the situation. If Wendell (or his parents) wanted him to be “the man”, they should have sent him to Harvard. And watched him on TV twice last year. If even that often.

While I am very far from a fan of the NCAA, her complaints about the NCAA that Duke got wrapped up in ring hollow. The one-and-done phenomenon is wholly a construction of the NBA. So why isn’t she criticizing her son’s new employer (yet)? Wait until she sees how he gets used there, and tossed aside if he doesn’t produce or (god forbid) gets injured.

Finally, regarding what a great year it was for Duke basketball…by what measure? It was a failure. There won’t be a single banner in Cameron commemorating last season. No ACC regular season title (4 games below first). No ACC title (didn’t even make the finals). No Final Four and certainly no National Championship. A 1-2 record against uNC. Final record of 29-8 (take away the patsies and we’re about 17-8). Now before anyone calls me a spoiled fan (I enjoy the game and don't expect us to win every time), we were consensus preseason #1 and at one point unanimous #1. We were healthy, out of the starters only Marvin missed just 4 games. By any measure we did not meet expectations.

You can take issue with it, but that’s the way I feel. And my mind is clearer. So I got that going for me. Which is nice.

[SavDukeGrad]

[QUOTE=yancem;1078160]There is a slight difference between Bamba and Bagley though. Bamba would have erased some of Carter's defensive lapses on the perimeter while providing more touches for Carter on the offensive side of the ball. I think that Carter was hoping to play more 4 and less 5 so Bamba would have been seen by the Carters as a better fit but I do agree that Carter struggled gaurding on the perimeter so I'm not sure how that would have worked out. Also, Bagley was great but did take the ball out of Carters hands from time to time.


I totally agree and didn't mean to imply that Bamba and Bagley were that similar. My point was that Duke was actively recruiting other big men in the class, and the Carters were well aware of it when Wendall signed during the early signing period.

I would also like to add that I really liked Wendell on last year's team, he seemed like a fine young man and the ultimate team player. I hope he has a great pro career, and that he can put all this behind him and have a positive relationship going forward with the Duke community, coaching staff, and Coach K.

[rasputin]

Anybody think there is a more generalizable problem here, perhaps, or is it just me?

Maybe this is just the "get off my lawn" in me, but I think, generally speaking, that parents these days don't really prepare their kids to be independent adults as quickly as they used to. At 18, if you did your job correctly, your "child" is now an "adult," and should be capable of thinking things through and making his/her own decisions; it seems that there is nowhere near as much emphasis placed on this as there used to be.

Not saying that Wendell isn't well spoken, intelligent, and perfectly capable of speaking for himself. I'm saying that the parents don't seem to think of him as such. He's likely much better prepared for the real world than they think he is.

And if a parent had properly prepared a child for becoming an adult, they would appropriately back up and away from their son/daughter, allowing him/her to go ahead and function as an adult.


Maybe it's not so much that parents are preparing their children to be adults as much as it is that parents are not actually allowing it to happen when the time comes. The time for a parent to speak with a sports coach about their son's/daughter's usage is when the kid is 8 or 9 years old and playing in rec league, and maybe even then only when there are other circumstances, such as mental or physical disabilities that the coach needs to know about. When I put my kids into rec league ball, I told them to listen to their coach and to do what they were told. If they played a lot, great. If that sat the bench, I told them to keep working hard in practice and then they would get more PT.

rsvman, I am just as much a get-off-my-lawn guy as you, and I think you're right. I think it is interesting that people say that kids grow up MORE quickly these days than they used to (socially, sexually, etc.), but that doesn't seem to take in the accepting responsibility for your own actions.

I remember being on a business trip with a parent of a newly-matriculated college kid, and the kid and parent talked several times a day, including discussions about what to major in and whether he should take this course or that course. Heaven forbid that you let the kid make a mistake for himself and learn from it.

[DukieInBrasil]

Finally, regarding what a great year it was for Duke basketball…by what measure? It was a failure. There won’t be a single banner in Cameron commemorating last season. No ACC regular season title (4 games below first). No ACC title (didn’t even make the finals). No Final Four and certainly no National Championship. A 1-2 record against uNC. Final record of 29-8 (take away the patsies and we’re about 17-8). Now before anyone calls me a spoiled fan (I enjoy the game and don't expect us to win every time), we were consensus preseason #1 and at one point unanimous #1. We were healthy, out of the starters only Marvin missed just 4 games. By any measure we did not meet expectations.

i agree with your perspective, but especially wanted to back you up on this section, although "failure" may be a bit harsh of a term, i definitely would not label last year a "success", for all the reasons you listed. The preseason ranking bit doesn't carry much weight with me b/c nobody knows anything about where teams are going to end up and basing it almost entirely on the reputation of players who have never played NCAA ball before is pretty specious. However, rising to #1 after playing, yes, the retrogression from that point was very disappointing. Some of that was other teams improving, but by that logic, Duke had all the same opportunity and time to improve that everyone else did. And the team didn't, for various reasons. The team very nearly imploded, but recovered somewhat, and played some decent ball by the end of the year, but nowhere near as invigorating as at the beginning of the year.
So yes, we did not meet expectations.
Back on topic: Wendell was one player who was pretty solid the whole way thru. He seldom had a "bad" game, and did not have any multi-game stretches of poor play. I was very pleased with his play, and glad he contributed to the team.

[NSDukeFan]

I certainly wouldn’t label last season a failure. A 29-8 record and a ball rolling the wrong way around the rim away from a Final Four sounds very successful to me. I was much more disappointed in the previous year’s results as my expectations were the highest they had been since 2010-2011. I wouldn’t consider that injury-riddled season a failure either, as they did hang a well deserved ACC championship banner and has another 25+ win season. Hopefully, the team continues this great tradition of success for many more years.

[dudog84]

Perhaps failure was a bit harsh. Perhaps. But if my firm is the favorite going into a presentation and our proposal doesn't even get short-listed, yep, it's a failure.

But hey, we'll always have the championship of the Motion Bracket of the Phil Knight Invitational.

[Steven43]

Agreed, IMO, the OAD strategy is solid. If Kyrie had a healthy season and Duval lived up to expectations, then there would probably be many OAD banners in the Duke rafters.

Hey! Let’s have another Duke OAD debate! It’s been a couple of months since we’ve gotten into it heavily. That’s too long.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I dunno. I have a hard time imaging Bulls fans spending pages and pages venting their spleens at Mrs. Carter.

A prominent Bulls beat writer took her to task today....

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I agree that this seems like a much more even take than most I have seen in the media and here.

If you think it's an even take.....well, yeah, we get it. I heard Brownlow today for a few minutes, thank God I was heading east and soon ran out of signal. She was ridiculous.

[cato]

A prominent Bulls beat writer took her to task today...

Perfect test case. How many pages of spleens were vented in the comments?

[Indoor66]

Perfect test case. How many pages of spleens were vented in the comments?

Or other organs vented (or evacuated).

[robed deity]

Brownlow is a UNC grad, so I think there is some underlying Duke angst in there. And I've definitely heard anti-Duke comments from her before. If anything though, the team she favors most in recent years has been UVa (she is a big proponent of their tempo-adjusted stats).

I could do without Brownlow,the ever annoying Gold, the thinks-he-knows-things about-sports-but-doesnt Ovies, the intolerably sanctimonious Glenn, and anyone else they have at that station. Can't believe I'm saying this, but the only thing I don't mind is the syndicated Dan Lebatard.

[ice-9]

How would you forecast a successful season for Carter with the Bulls?

Let's see...how about 14 points, 9 rebounds, 2 blocks and 2 assists per game??

Carter's profile at Duke is pretty much what the Bulls are hoping for.

A 5 who can rebound and anchor a defense, and defer offensively to a 4 who will be taking a lot more shots.

That he played that role exceedingly well at Duke with Bagley is likely the reason he got drafted #7. His acceptance and performance in that role is what got him there.

Will Mrs. Carter have grievances to publicly air if the scenario above was realized? Will she feel like Markannen should take a backseat to Carter offensively, that Carter's potential isn't fully realized?

---

I guess the question is, could Carter have been drafted higher if he was featured more prominently?

From the excellent DeCourcy article:


Well, let’s examine first how Carter performed in the four games Bagley missed last February with an injury. Without Bagley on the floor to consume his customary 13 shots, Carter went from 8.6 field goal attempts per game to 10.8.

Two shots? Was Bagley really cramping Carter’s style so much? In the sans-Bagley games, Carter shot .442 from the field and averaged 16.3 points and 2.8 turnovers, compared to a .580 percent, 13.2 points and 1.9 turnovers when he had Bagley nearby.

It seems Bagley might have contributed to Carter being a better college player.

---

I'm not persuaded that Carter would've paired well with Bamba in the post.

I'm assuming in that duo Bamba would be the 5 and Carter would be the 4.

Carter's footwork is too slow to guard perimeter oriented 4s; probably for college and likely for the NBA.

[UrinalCake]

Now she goes and retweets one of DukeMBB’s posts with a very supportive message. Combined with Wendell trying to backtrack and claim his mother was misquoted, I really feel like they’re just trying to get their names in the news as much as possible.

8453

[weezie]

Maybe she just wants her 15 minutes if fame to run out on a high note.

[Spanarkel]

Looks like MB3 may be delaying Carter Jr's need to void.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BYJqOHnFKEl/

[johnb]

I have no problem with the Carter family talking out loud. If there is one negative about Duke bball, imho, it's the militaristic requirement that no player or parent ever speaks his or her mind about anything serious. They can yuk it up or talk about the brotherhood or spout athlete banalities, but they never address serious social issues.

If anyone disputes that, I'd love the references. Lots of smart players. Almost no socially conscious quotes in 30+ years.

As a psychiatrist, I would absolutely assume the Carters would have had a variety of reactions when Bagley re-classified in July 2017. There would be positives, of course, but I'd be shocked if a parent wouldn't also consider the potential downside. It's disingenuous to imply Bagley made the decision on his own and Duke simply accepted his scholarship acceptance. Puhlease. Duke recruited him hard, helped him get the paperwork done, and negotiated with the NCAA. After 6 months of assuming he'd be the man in the middle, Carter would naturally wonder why Duke felt obliged to bring in the country's top ranked player at his position, when Duke already had him as well as 2-3 other very highly skilled 6'10" guys. Who wouldn't be at least partly miffed? I'd be shocked if Javin and Marques and Vrank didn't have the same reaction (among a variety of reactions, including a likely sense that Marvin's a good guy and would be fun/gratifying to play/practice with). The guys who actually lost almost all their PT would have even more reason to complain than Marvin (who never actually complained). But current players are essentially forbidden from speaking lest they get moved further down the bench. At least a dozen DBR posters felt the same way, criticizing the decision to bring Bagley onto the team at the last minute. Of course, we stopped complaining when we saw Bagley and Carter play together.

I don't know that Mrs. Carter is "angry," but if I were her, I'd be angry that DBR summarizes her in the title of this thread as "angry." She's smart. She's protective of her son. She's aware that NCAA basketball leads to great wealth for a bunch of middle aged (mostly white) men, brings great visibility to many (mostly white) universities, brings great profit to a wide variety of (mostly white owned) multinational corporations, and pays off the (mostly African American) players with tuition that can be written off as an afterthought by the university. She's been absolutely clear that she highly values education and that these scholarships have also
been helpful to these players. She understands the importance of education and wanted her own kid to go to Harvard and also thought it unfair that her son was essentially forced to defer going pro for a year, which might have reduced his lifetime earnings by a year and put him at injury risk when he could have signed his multi-year guaranteed $5.8 million/year contract last year, thereby locking in a lifetime of wealth.

I've not heard her say it, but it's fairly obvious that the only people in the U.S who are prohibited from following a career path for which they are fully qualified are athletes who specifically want to play pro football or basketball. And, again, she hasn't said it, but it's fairly obvious what elite football and basketball players have in common. They're black. Contrast that with tennis, golf, hockey, baseball, soccer, and any business. Somehow, those fields get by without restraining the rights of its participants. Just because current players signed agreements locking in these restrictions doesn't whitewash the reality that these two sports are unique in our culture, that they are the only organized paths to wealth where the most visible participants are African American.

Mrs. Carter saw the Bagley situation in shades of gray. She thinks for herself. She owns paradox. She treasures education and loves Duke but also criticizes an underlying NCAA/NBA structure that has made her son a rich man but which also has racial and perhaps racist structural elements.

Mrs. Carter doesn't sound angry to me. She sounds terrific.

[dudog84]

I have no problem with the Carter family talking out loud. If there is one negative about Duke bball, imho, it's the militaristic requirement that no player or parent ever speaks his or her mind about anything serious. They can yuk it up or talk about the brotherhood or spout athlete banalities, but they never address serious social issues.

If anyone disputes that, I'd love the references. Lots of smart players. Almost no socially conscious quotes in 30+ years.

As a psychiatrist, I would absolutely assume the Carters would have had a variety of reactions when Bagley re-classified in July 2017. There would be positives, of course, but I'd be shocked if a parent wouldn't also consider the potential downside. It's disingenuous to imply Bagley made the decision on his own and Duke simply accepted his scholarship acceptance. Puhlease. Duke recruited him hard, helped him get the paperwork done, and negotiated with the NCAA. After 6 months of assuming he'd be the man in the middle, Carter would naturally wonder why Duke felt obliged to bring in the country's top ranked player at his position, when Duke already had him as well as 2-3 other very highly skilled 6'10" guys. Who wouldn't be at least partly miffed? I'd be shocked if Javin and Marques and Vrank didn't have the same reaction (among a variety of reactions, including a likely sense that Marvin's a good guy and would be fun/gratifying to play/practice with). The guys who actually lost almost all their PT would have even more reason to complain than Marvin (who never actually complained). But current players are essentially forbidden from speaking lest they get moved further down the bench. At least a dozen DBR posters felt the same way, criticizing the decision to bring Bagley onto the team at the last minute. Of course, we stopped complaining when we saw Bagley and Carter play together.

I don't know that Mrs. Carter is "angry," but if I were her, I'd be angry that DBR summarizes her in the title of this thread as "angry." She's smart. She's protective of her son. She's aware that NCAA basketball leads to great wealth for a bunch of middle aged (mostly white) men, brings great visibility to many (mostly white) universities, brings great profit to a wide variety of (mostly white owned) multinational corporations, and pays off the (mostly African American) players with tuition that can be written off as an afterthought by the university. She's been absolutely clear that she highly values education and that these scholarships have also
been helpful to these players. She understands the importance of education and wanted her own kid to go to Harvard and also thought it unfair that her son was essentially forced to defer going pro for a year, which might have reduced his lifetime earnings by a year and put him at injury risk when he could have signed his multi-year guaranteed $5.8 million/year contract last year, thereby locking in a lifetime of wealth.

I've not heard her say it, but it's fairly obvious that the only people in the U.S who are prohibited from following a career path for which they are fully qualified are athletes who specifically want to play pro football or basketball. And, again, she hasn't said it, but it's fairly obvious what elite football and basketball players have in common. They're black. Contrast that with tennis, golf, hockey, baseball, soccer, and any business. Somehow, those fields get by without restraining the rights of its participants. Just because current players signed agreements locking in these restrictions doesn't whitewash the reality that these two sports are unique in our culture, that they are the only organized paths to wealth where the most visible participants are African American.

Mrs. Carter saw the Bagley situation in shades of gray. She thinks for herself. She owns paradox. She treasures education and loves Duke but also criticizes an underlying NCAA/NBA structure that has made her son a rich man but which also has racial and perhaps racist structural elements.

Mrs. Carter doesn't sound angry to me. She sounds terrific.

Horsepucky. There are many MANY professions that require a degree. My profession required a Masters Degree to get hired. Many professions also require professional certification. Besides the obvious doctors and lawyers; engineers, geologists, architects and others require certification.

So is a lawyer who fails the bar exam by one question really not qualified to practice? No. But there are standards that the profession requires.

Companies can further put qualifications/standards on who they want to hire. Read any employment ad.

[johnb]

Horsepucky. There are many MANY professions that require a degree. My profession required a Masters Degree to get hired. Many professions also require professional certification. Besides the obvious doctors and lawyers; engineers, geologists, architects and others require certification.

So is a lawyer who fails the bar exam by one question really not qualified to practice? No. But there are standards that the profession requires.

Companies can further put qualifications/standards on who they want to hire. Read any employment ad.

You aren't qualified to function independently as a physician without an MD, internship, and a lot of exams. You aren't qualified to practice as an attorney unless you've passed the bar. Etc. There are likely people who know enough to practice medicine or law who haven't jumped the appropriate hurdles, but those hurdles are in place because society wants reassurance that people who assert they are professionals have a minimum level of education, experience, mentorship, and ongoing professional restrictions. Until you've had those experiences, and are willing to sign on to obey the rules, you aren't qualified to practice those professions. Similarly, Starbucks might require experience for a barista, and a local pub might require its servers to be 21 years old because they'd need to serve alcohol.

Thousands of types of jobs, millions of people, lots of rules. For sure. But a year or 3 of college has absolutely nothing to do with the skill set or responsibility required to be a pro football or basketball player. No other sports require the delay.

Horsepucky, perhaps, but it's not unreasonable for a parent to question a system that appears to uniquely restrict the freedoms of members of the most disenfranchised ethnic group in the history of our country.

[gep]

You aren't qualified to function independently as a physician without an MD, internship, and a lot of exams. You aren't qualified to practice as an attorney unless you've passed the bar. Etc. There are likely people who know enough to practice medicine or law who haven't jumped the appropriate hurdles, but those hurdles are in place because society wants reassurance that people who assert they are professionals have a minimum level of education, experience, mentorship, and ongoing professional restrictions. Until you've had those experiences, and are willing to sign on to obey the rules, you aren't qualified to practice those professions. Similarly, Starbucks might require experience for a barista, and a local pub might require its servers to be 21 years old because they'd need to serve alcohol.

Thousands of types of jobs, millions of people, lots of rules. For sure. But a year or 3 of college has absolutely nothing to do with the skill set or responsibility required to be a pro football or basketball player. No other sports require the delay.

Horsepucky, perhaps, but it's not unreasonable for a parent to question a system that appears to uniquely restrict the freedoms of members of the most disenfranchised ethnic group in the history of our country.

Yes, not unreasonable to question. But, to me... if they feel that way, they could have chosen another path/journey. No one forced this upon them. They chose...

[UrinalCake]

I guess the difference is that those requirements (certifications, degrees, etc) are directly related to the job being performed, whereas there is ample evidence that 18 year olds are capable of playing basketball at the level required by the NBA. The OAD rule is more an artificially manufactured requirement.

Now, the counter argument would be that the vast majority of 18 year olds are actually not ready for the NBA and therefore the one year requirement makes sense. But let’s be honest - the OAD rule does not exist because the NBA thinks being 19 is a requirement to playing in the league. It exists to protect the owners.

[cato]

Mrs. Carter doesn't sound angry to me. She sounds terrific.

Thank you for taking the time and energy to think so deeply about this from Mrs. Carter’s position. I hope she gets a few more sympathic feelings from folks around here.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

If there is one negative about Duke bball, imho, it's the militaristic requirement that no player or parent ever speaks his or her mind about anything serious. They can yuk it up or talk about the brotherhood or spout athlete banalities, but they never address serious social issues.

If anyone disputes that, I'd love the references.

Might I respectfully suggest that looking for serious social commentary from athletes, or entertainers, is a losing proposition. Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods never went there, on purpose, because they didn't want to alienate 50% of their fans (give or take). Social issues = politics, and we see how much that is doing for the ratings of the NFL and ESPN over all. Do you want that to happen to college sports? These issues have no place in college sports, and with the decorum requirements of this forum, would not work here either. This thread is pushing the envelope I'd imagine (though no moderator has told me that).

[lotusland]

Yes, not unreasonable to question. But, to me... if they feel that way, they could have chosen another path/journey. No one forced this upon them. They chose...

In fairness Carter “chose” Duke based on what the coaching staff told him at the time. I’m guessing that playing beside Bags was not in the sales pitch. It would suit me fine if Carter were allowed to transfer without sitting out under that circumstance. Everyone knows these OAD kids are making decisions based on maximizing their draft position. I think it’s fair for the Coach to have to “choose” too.

[gep]

In fairness Carter “chose” Duke based on what the coaching staff told him at the time. I’m guessing that playing beside Bags was not in the sales pitch. It would suit me fine if Carter were allowed to transfer without sitting out under that circumstance. Everyone knows these OAD kids are making decisions based on maximizing their draft position. I think it’s fair for the Coach to have to “choose” too.

I fully agree with this. But, IIRC, Kris Humphries signed his LOI, then when Coach K did not "guarantee" playing time, he asked out of his LOI, which Duke accepted. If the Carters were that emphatic (lied to, rug pulled out from under them, thrown under the bus), they also had the "choice" to ask out of his LOI. (My 2 cents...)

[Wander]

Mrs. Carter saw the Bagley situation in shades of gray. She thinks for herself. She owns paradox. She treasures education and loves Duke but also criticizes an underlying NCAA/NBA structure that has made her son a rich man but which also has racial and perhaps racist structural elements.


I think you're conflating two separate things that have little to do with each other. Criticizing the NCAA and NBA structure is fine. Criticizing the OAD rule, or Coach K's approach to it, is also fine.

But the Bagley thing is just nonsense. It is by far the dumbest Duke "scandal" I've ever seen. Dumber than the Grayson tripping thing – at least that had a tiny truth of a Duke player doing something mildly bad that set it off, even if it was laughably exaggerated in the media. Dumber even than the supposed Coach K back scandal – at least that one would have been theoretically bad if it were true. This one isn't even hypothetically bad. It's supposed to be a scandal that our coach tried to recruit a great player? Please.

[sagegrouse]

I fully agree with this. But, IIRC, Kris Humphries signed his LOI, then when Coach K did not "guarantee" playing time, he asked out of his LOI, which Duke accepted. If the Carters were that emphatic (lied to, rug pulled out from under them, thrown under the bus), they also had the "choice" to ask out of his LOI. (My 2 cents...)

Two points:

I believe Bagley committed to Duke AFTER Wendell was already enrolled in summer school.

There needs to be some source of stability in college hoops. It takes a year to recruit a top-rated player. There is only six months between April, when players could make surprise decisions to transfer or go pro, and the start of the following season.

[johnb]

I think you're conflating two separate things that have little to do with each other. Criticizing the NCAA and NBA structure is fine. Criticizing the OAD rule, or Coach K's approach to it, is also fine.

But the Bagley thing is just nonsense. It is by far the dumbest Duke "scandal" I've ever seen. Dumber than the Grayson tripping thing – at least that had a tiny truth of a Duke player doing something mildly bad that set it off, even if it was laughably exaggerated in the media. Dumber even than the supposed Coach K back scandal – at least that one would have been theoretically bad if it were true. This one isn't even hypothetically bad. It's supposed to be a scandal that our coach tried to recruit a great player? Please.

While many DBR posters complained about the Bagley recruitment at the time, Wendell has never publicly complained for a second. He’s been a warrior. There was never a question about whether Wendell would start or whether he would become a lottery pick. We should all be as good at our jobs as he is at his.

I like the fact that Mrs. Carter questions the structure of college and professional athletics. She’s probably been skeptical for years and will likely continue to be so. She’s also raised a good son, who sweated for Duke basketball and has represented us well, and I’m inclined to support moms who are trying to do the right thing.

[Edouble]

I have no problem with the Carter family talking out loud. If there is one negative about Duke bball, imho, it's the militaristic requirement that no player or parent ever speaks his or her mind about anything serious. They can yuk it up or talk about the brotherhood or spout athlete banalities, but they never address serious social issues.

If anyone disputes that, I'd love the references. Lots of smart players. Almost no socially conscious quotes in 30+ years.

As a psychiatrist, I would absolutely assume the Carters would have had a variety of reactions when Bagley re-classified in July 2017. There would be positives, of course, but I'd be shocked if a parent wouldn't also consider the potential downside. It's disingenuous to imply Bagley made the decision on his own and Duke simply accepted his scholarship acceptance. Puhlease. Duke recruited him hard, helped him get the paperwork done, and negotiated with the NCAA. After 6 months of assuming he'd be the man in the middle, Carter would naturally wonder why Duke felt obliged to bring in the country's top ranked player at his position, when Duke already had him as well as 2-3 other very highly skilled 6'10" guys. Who wouldn't be at least partly miffed? I'd be shocked if Javin and Marques and Vrank didn't have the same reaction (among a variety of reactions, including a likely sense that Marvin's a good guy and would be fun/gratifying to play/practice with). The guys who actually lost almost all their PT would have even more reason to complain than Marvin (who never actually complained). But current players are essentially forbidden from speaking lest they get moved further down the bench. At least a dozen DBR posters felt the same way, criticizing the decision to bring Bagley onto the team at the last minute. Of course, we stopped complaining when we saw Bagley and Carter play together.

I don't know that Mrs. Carter is "angry," but if I were her, I'd be angry that DBR summarizes her in the title of this thread as "angry." She's smart. She's protective of her son. She's aware that NCAA basketball leads to great wealth for a bunch of middle aged (mostly white) men, brings great visibility to many (mostly white) universities, brings great profit to a wide variety of (mostly white owned) multinational corporations, and pays off the (mostly African American) players with tuition that can be written off as an afterthought by the university. She's been absolutely clear that she highly values education and that these scholarships have also been helpful to these players. She understands the importance of education and wanted her own kid to go to Harvard and also thought it unfair that her son was essentially forced to defer going pro for a year, which might have reduced his lifetime earnings by a year and put him at injury risk when he could have signed his multi-year guaranteed $5.8 million/year contract last year, thereby locking in a lifetime of wealth.

I've not heard her say it, but it's fairly obvious that the only people in the U.S who are prohibited from following a career path for which they are fully qualified are athletes who specifically want to play pro football or basketball. And, again, she hasn't said it, but it's fairly obvious what elite football and basketball players have in common. They're black. Contrast that with tennis, golf, hockey, baseball, soccer, and any business. Somehow, those fields get by without restraining the rights of its participants. Just because current players signed agreements locking in these restrictions doesn't whitewash the reality that these two sports are unique in our culture, that they are the only organized paths to wealth where the most visible participants are African American.

Mrs. Carter saw the Bagley situation in shades of gray. She thinks for herself. She owns paradox. She treasures education and loves Duke but also criticizes an underlying NCAA/NBA structure that has made her son a rich man but which also has racial and perhaps racist structural elements.

Mrs. Carter doesn't sound angry to me. She sounds terrific.

Then why would she begrudge Bagley for wanting to maximize his lifetime earnings by a year by reclassifying?

Unfortunately, all of this... the NCAA, the NBA, basketball at the highest level, is big business. If Mrs. Carter is taking the approach that this is a business, and she wants what is best for her son from a financial standpoint, she should know that there are others looking out for their best interest as well.

[gep]

Two points:

I believe Bagley committed to Duke AFTER Wendell was already enrolled in summer school.

There needs to be some source of stability in college hoops. It takes a year to recruit a top-rated player. There is only six months between April, when players could make surprise decisions to transfer or go pro, and the start of the following season.

Sage... thanks for the information. So if a player doesn't enroll in summer school between April and the start of the season, he can ask out of his LOI? I guess once enrolled in college, the LOI is finished... no "intent" anymore...:cool:

[ice-9]

Thank you for your insightful posts. They are a good defense for Mrs Carter and even if I don’t agree with all the points I can respect the care you’ve put into making them.


But a year or 3 of college has absolutely nothing to do with the skill set or responsibility required to be a pro football or basketball player. No other sports require the delay.

The NBA doesn’t require a year of coullege though - they require you to be 19.

It’s worth asking why but clearly NBA owners and players believe doing so will improve the league.

I don’t find this to be that different vs a company requiring new recruits to have graduated from college, for example.

Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerburg have proven that a degree is not required for success. Yet the requirement commonly exists.

At the heart of it, any kind of requirement will discriminate in the sense that those who haven’t passed that requirement cannot participate.

Maybe the real question is whether the NBA’s requirement was designed specifically to limit the earning potential of young black people.


Horsepucky, perhaps, but it's not unreasonable for a parent to question a system that appears to uniquely restrict the freedoms of members of the most disenfranchised ethnic group in the history of our country.

I think no though.

Because as a mechanism to restrict an entire ethnic group it’s fairly ineffective. Black athletes who can make the NBA is a very small percentage indeed.

More likely it’s a mechanism to improve one’s own economics, ie more self interest vs actively suppresssing a specific ethnic group.

And obviously this mechanism applies to all ethnicities, not just blacks.

The majority of Americans in colleges are white. Are businesses restricting the potential of Caucasians by requiring a college degree?

I’d go so far as to argue that the college athletics structure is beneficial for young black men. They can get an education subsidized by scholarships that they may otherwise would not have access to.

Do universities make millions from basketball and football? I assume so. But many universities like Duke operate on a loss overall and in fact require alumni donations and endowment funds to even survive.

[lotusland]

While many DBR posters complained about the Bagley recruitment at the time, Wendell has never publicly complained for a second. He’s been a warrior. There was never a question about whether Wendell would start or whether he would become a lottery pick. We should all be as good at our jobs as he is at his.

I like the fact that Mrs. Carter questions the structure of college and professional athletics. She’s probably been skeptical for years and will likely continue to be so. She’s also raised a good son, who sweated for Duke basketball and has represented us well, and I’m inclined to support moms who are trying to do the right thing.

Both Carter and his mother may have welcomed Bags coming on board late and may not not have been the least bit interested in a transfer but there is no question that it changed the dynamic for him at Duke from the the time he committed. Likewise Bolden was signed late the previous year after Jeter was allowed to transfer without sitting out. I don’t want anyone to be at Duke who doesn’t want to be here for any reason. The transfer cutoff shouid be the last day the coach can bring in an additional player. The coach should have to choose at the same time the players choose.

[sagegrouse]

Both Carter and his mother may have welcomed Bags coming on board late and may not not have been the least bit interested in a transfer but there is no question that it changed the dynamic for him at Duke from the the time he committed. Likewise Bolden was signed late the previous year after Jeter was allowed to transfer without sitting out. I don’t want anyone to be at Duke who doesn’t want to be here for any reason. The transfer cutoff shouid be the last day the coach can bring in an additional player. The coach should have to choose at the same time the players choose.

Jeter didn't sit out?

[CDu]

Both Carter and his mother may have welcomed Bags coming on board late and may not not have been the least bit interested in a transfer but there is no question that it changed the dynamic for him at Duke from the the time he committed. Likewise Bolden was signed late the previous year after Jeter was allowed to transfer without sitting out. I don’t want anyone to be at Duke who doesn’t want to be here for any reason. The transfer cutoff shouid be the last day the coach can bring in an additional player. The coach should have to choose at the same time the players choose.

A couple of things:
1. Jeter did have to sit out a year for transferring
2. Bolden didn’t commit after Jeter transferred. The two were teammates Bolden’s freshman year.
3. There is no “transfer cutoff”. You can transfer whenever you want. The only time transferring has different implications is if you do it midseason.

[dudog84]

You aren't qualified to function independently as a physician without an MD, internship, and a lot of exams. You aren't qualified to practice as an attorney unless you've passed the bar. Etc. There are likely people who know enough to practice medicine or law who haven't jumped the appropriate hurdles, but those hurdles are in place because society wants reassurance that people who assert they are professionals have a minimum level of education, experience, mentorship, and ongoing professional restrictions. Until you've had those experiences, and are willing to sign on to obey the rules, you aren't qualified to practice those professions. Similarly, Starbucks might require experience for a barista, and a local pub might require its servers to be 21 years old because they'd need to serve alcohol.

Thousands of types of jobs, millions of people, lots of rules. For sure. But a year or 3 of college has absolutely nothing to do with the skill set or responsibility required to be a pro football or basketball player. No other sports require the delay.

Horsepucky, perhaps, but it's not unreasonable for a parent to question a system that appears to uniquely restrict the freedoms of members of the most disenfranchised ethnic group in the history of our country.

Ever hear of the Chinese Exclusion Act? I think part of what set me off was your bringing race into it, the hyperbole (which continues). I don't believe it has the least little thing to do with race. The NBA teams are trying to protect themselves from their own stupidity. And honestly, shouldn't they be allowed to set the rules of evaluation before they give someone millions of dollars? I don't think high school and AAU ball shows much besides athleticism. College, even for non-athletes, is very much about showing prospective employers your skills and that you can learn. I used very little, almost nothing, of my coursework in my first jobs.

And though the waiting periods for football and basketball are not altruistic, I don't think the vast majority of 18-year-olds are ready to compete with men. They may have the skills, but their bodies are not ready. Certainly no 18-year-old should be butting heads with James Harrison (I'm not sure anyone should). I'm also wondering about basketball considering all the injuries we're seeing to young men in the game. Harry Giles, Markelle Fultz, Ben Simmons, Michael Porter Jr., Joel Embiid, and that's just off the top of my head. These teams are making a huge multi-million dollar investment with guaranteed contracts. They're not hiring an entry-level person for $50,000/year.

I personally see racism every day, sometimes not even subtle, and I'm white. I can't imagine what black people deal with and feel, but the only way we're going to get anywhere is by not conflating or exaggerating issues. There are real racism problems in this country. The NBA one-and-done rule is not one of them.

[1991 duke law]

Essentially Mrs. Carter wants a contract outlining the terms of her son coming to Duke. And that contract would have provided that no higher ranked student athlete could attend Duke in the year of Wendell’s commitment to Duke. A parallel to this would be a star Duke law student coming to a law firm and saying that he wants assurances that the firm will not hire any Yale grads in his year. Too competitive for him if a Yalie is recruited and he will not be the stud.

I realize that people often rant and context is lost (sometimes intentionally by the writer) but in my view Mrs. Carter is not reasonable or realistic in her expectations. Recruiting is fluid - particularly in this day and age when most top student athletes have no desire to actually be in college. It is not as if Bagley was recruited with the result that Wendell received no court time. And considering the success that her son had (on the court and drafted 7th) it is difficult to take the complaints seriously - and you wonder why she feels the need to now grind this axe. If Bolden was complaining he may have more of a sympathetic ear (I expect Wendell and Marvin’s arrival was not want he wanted).

Wendell has had a pretty magical ride since his start at Duke. Started each game. Was profiled and lauded throughout the year as a top player - even if Bagley received more attention. His mother’s complaints - and what appears to be a desire to be in the spotlight - have been disappointing. And certainly do not assist Duke in any fashion.

[budwom]

Essentially Mrs. Carter wants a contract outlining the terms of her son coming to Duke. And that contract would have provided that no higher ranked student athlete could attend Duke in the year of Wendell’s commitment to Duke. A parallel to this would be a star Duke law student coming to a law firm and saying that he wants assurances that the firm will not hire any Yale grads in his year. Too competitive for him if a Yalie is recruited and he will not be the stud.

I realize that people often rant and context is lost (sometimes intentionally by the writer) but in my view Mrs. Carter is not reasonable or realistic in her expectations. Recruiting is fluid - particularly in this day and age when most top student athletes have no desire to actually be in college. It is not as if Bagley was recruited with the result that Wendell received no court time. And considering the success that her son had (on the court and drafted 7th) it is difficult to take the complaints seriously - and you wonder why she feels the need to now grind this axe. If Bolden was complaining he may have more of a sympathetic ear (I expect Wendell and Marvin’s arrival was not want he wanted).

Wendell has had a pretty magical ride since his start at Duke. Started each game. Was profiled and lauded throughout the year as a top player - even if Bagley received more attention. His mother’s complaints - and what appears to be a desire to be in the spotlight - have been disappointing. And certainly do not assist Duke in any fashion.

I largely agree and would opine that Mrs. Carter seems to want a contract after the fact, i.e. I strongly suspect she did not tell K she expected Wendell to outshine all others.
I really like Wendell and take solace in the fact we don't hear any whinings from him...

[lotusland]

A couple of things:
1. Jeter did have to sit out a year for transferring
2. Bolden didn’t commit after Jeter transferred. The two were teammates Bolden’s freshman year.
3. There is no “transfer cutoff”. You can transfer whenever you want. The only time transferring has different implications is if you do it midseason.

In the case of Carter I’m actually talking about a commitment cutoff. Enrolling in class shouldn’t prevent Carter from switching teams without sitting out if the coach is still allowed to add players. I don’t think any transfer should ever have to sit out a year and a player should be allowed to transfer for the coming season up until roster is set for the year.

Basically the players shouid be able to change teams at will until the roster is set. Perhaps the coach could “ finalize” the roster during the summer at which time no more transfers and no more player additions would be allowed.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Basically the players shouid be able to change teams at will until the roster is set.

That sounds nice and warm and fuzzy and enlightened and sounds "pro player" - until you realize that this kind of chaos would damage the game overall, for 100% of the players. It's always a fallacy to make policy based on the outlier, the exception, no matter how good it makes you feel.

[Indoor66]

That sounds nice and warm and fuzzy and enlightened and sounds "pro player" - until you realize that this kind of chaos would damage the game overall, for 100% of the players. It's always a fallacy to make policy based on the outlier, the exception, no matter how good it makes you feel.

An old maxim around the law: Hard cases make bad law. Or - if it's sauce for the goose, it's sauce for the gander.

[CDu]

That sounds nice and warm and fuzzy and enlightened and sounds "pro player" - until you realize that this kind of chaos would damage the game overall, for 100% of the players. It's always a fallacy to make policy based on the outlier, the exception, no matter how good it makes you feel.

Ding ding ding!

[1991 duke law]

In the case of Carter I’m actually talking about a commitment cutoff. Enrolling in class shouldn’t prevent Carter from switching teams without sitting out if the coach is still allowed to add players. I don’t think any transfer should ever have to sit out a year and a player should be allowed to transfer for the coming season up until roster is set for the year.

Basically the players shouid be able to change teams at will until the roster is set. Perhaps the coach could “ finalize” the roster during the summer at which time no more transfers and no more player additions would be allowed.


And I speculate that you are fine with a coach cutting a scholarship to a student athlete until the roster is set - to open up space for the student looking to transfer in?

This can be applied to the law students that we commit to hire when they finish school - they can jump to a better firm until school ends. And we can let go students should we find better ones.

There is no guarantee in virtually any job that the facts and circumstances will play out exactly like you want. I am not sure why a free opportunity to play college basketball should be different. This does not mean that kids should be lied to - and it does not mean that there are no situations in which one can conclude poor treatment.

Coaches and schools should be accountable for bad conduct. But I do not buy into the thesis that every basketball athlete has a right to expect that any circumstance in which their ideal needs are not met should be met with hue and cry.

That is why I struggle with Wendell Carter‘s mother’s complaints - even with an exceptional outcome (no cost attendance at one of the worlds best universities, centerstage in playing a sport that is a leap frog to professional sport, and a draft result in which he will make $4 million a year or so) - she has still found multiple bases in which to complain.

[sagegrouse]

That is why I struggle with Wendell Carter‘s mother’s complaints - even with an exceptional outcome (no cost attendance at one of the worlds best universities, centerstage in playing a sport that is a leap frog to professional sport, and a draft result in which he will make $4 million a year or so) - she has still found multiple bases in which to complain.

Wendell is guaranteed $8 million or so over the first two years with team options afterwards (100 percent of scales for #7). I don't know if the money has started flowing, but Wendell's contract is certainly bankable. We'll see if Ms. Carter calms down once the checks start coming. Which, of course, raises other questions.......

[lotusland]

That sounds nice and warm and fuzzy and enlightened and sounds "pro player" - until you realize that this kind of chaos would damage the game overall, for 100% of the players. It's always a fallacy to make policy based on the outlier, the exception, no matter how good it makes you feel.

I don’t see chaos. I don’t think Coach K having to either sell Wendell on playing alongside Bags or choose between the two is chaos. He was pretty happy with his recruits before Bags. I think the outcome would be coaches commiting to their roster early in the off season to keep from losing their existing recruits. If a recruit is considering re-classifying, he’ll want to make his intentions known early or have fewer options available. A lot of these issues will be somewhat resolved by ending the OAD rule. The majority of programs aren’t bringing in recruits in August. Certainly not enough to cause any chaos.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I don’t see chaos..

You haven't played many dominos have you?

[kmspeaks]

I don’t see chaos. I don’t think Coach K having to either sell Wendell on playing alongside Bags or choose between the two is chaos. He was pretty happy with his recruits before Bags. I think the outcome would be coaches commiting to their roster early in the off season to keep from losing their existing recruits. If a recruit is considering re-classifying, he’ll want to make his intentions known early or have fewer options available. A lot of these issues will be somewhat resolved by ending the OAD rule. The majority of programs aren’t bringing in recruits in August. Certainly not enough to cause any chaos.

Do you think the Bulls should be blocked from drafting, signing, or trading for a player who could eat in to Carter's minutes or production or change his role on the team for the length of his contract? I mean they already committed to him right, so they should seek his approval for any roster changes? Or is it just college coaches who should be held to these standards?

[lotusland]

Do you think the Bulls should be blocked from drafting, signing, or trading for a player who could eat in to Carter's minutes or production or change his role on the team for the length of his contract? I mean they already committed to him right, so they should seek his approval for any roster changes? Or is it just college coaches who should be held to these standards?

No but the dynamic is in no way the same.

[lotusland]

You haven't played many dominos have you?

No I haven’t played many dominos. Excellent question.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

No I haven’t played many dominos. Excellent question.

And this answer above, and your earlier answers, do indicate an unfamiliarity with the domino effect.

[1991 duke law]

No but the dynamic is in no way the same.

I disagree - I do not think the dynamic is all that different. You want to put student athletes – particularly those who play basketball – in a special place where they are guaranteed certain parameters associated with their coming to a school. With the primary guarantee being the contents of the roster.

At the end of the day, a student athlete can make that demand and elect not to go to a school if it does not submit to his demand. Good luck with that - most coaches would not agree although practically speaking most could agree as they would have little to no chance of getting a Bagley (let alone a Carter).

But more importantly, and this is where I have a real issue with your position, any top 10 player can choose to go to any school that he wants. And if that top 10 player wants to ensure that he is the biggest fish in a small pond - in other words, if he wishes to ensure that he is not competing for playing time with other recruits - he can select almost 340 colleges where that will not be an issue. In fact, it would be hard to identify 10 colleges in which it would be an issue.

So to synthesize my point - Wendell Carter could have chosen almost 340 other colleges in which he would have been ‘guaranteed’ that no similarly ranked player would compete with him for exposure (and let’s be clear, this was not an issue of minutes - Wendell got his minutes). If he wanted that guarantee, he could have gone to BC, Clemson, Miami, NC State, Wake, UVA, Pitt etc. Heck - he allegedly seriously considered Harvard. Little chance that Harvard would find a competing post player.

But his mom and dad chose Duke. Not because Duke had the best academics (Harvard has a slightly higher reputation 😢) but because they wanted to symbiotically “use” Duke for a year as a spring board to the NBA.

So when Mrs. Carter moans and complains - again, I am not in agreement. She did not mind Wendell jumping ahead of Bolden - that was fine. Many people like to applaud her for standing up and stating her displeasure - but the more I consider her arguments (particularly in the context of her son’s situation), they seem increasingly weak and unpersuasive.

[Native]

Heck - he allegedly seriously considered Harvard. Little chance that Harvard would find a competing post player.

But his mom and dad chose Duke. Not because Duke had the best academics (Harvard has a slightly higher reputation ��) but because they wanted to symbiotically “use” Duke for a year as a spring board to the NBA.

For what it's worth, Wendell was recently on Pardon My Take (https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/pmt-6-22-chicago-bulls-1st-round-pick-wendell-carter-jr-ryan-whitney-and-mt-rushmore-of-insults) and claimed his parents always wanted him to go to Harvard, to the point of continuing to wear Harvard gear around Wendell after he had decided on Duke to try and change his mind.

[Jeffrey]

Many people like to applaud her for standing up and stating her displeasure - but the more I consider her arguments (particularly in the context of her son’s situation), they seem increasingly weak and unpersuasive.

Strongly agree, her son is being treated exceptionally well compared to almost all other members of society. Poor Wendell, he might only make $200 million before his 40th birthday, instead of $208 million. What other occupation pays this well before someone's 40th birthday? What is the true value of an NBA player to society?

[weezie]

... claimed his parents always wanted him to go to Harvard, to the point of continuing to wear Harvard gear around Wendell after he had decided on Duke to try and change his mind.

Insert passing out eye roll emoji here. Funny how this thread keeps bubbling up.

Big old seeeeeeeeeeeeeya to them.

[DevilHorse]

Once Bagley committed to go to Duke, was a release from Duke a possibility for Wendell Carter?
Was there still a slot on the Harvard roster available for him to slip into?
Given the choice (in foresight and hingsight) would that have been a desired option?

Larry
DevilHorse

[Jeffrey]

Given the choice (in foresight and hingsight) would that have been a desired option?


No way, slavery is slavery regardless of location.

[sagegrouse]

Once Bagley committed to go to Duke, was a release from Duke a possibility for Wendell Carter?
Was there still a slot on the Harvard roster available for him to slip into?
Given the choice (in foresight and hingsight) would that have been a desired option?

Larry
DevilHorse

Well, if I recall the timeline correctly (which would be a first):


Wendell was already enrolled at Duke when Marvin decided to re-classify. Therefore, no release or transfer was possible without sitting out the season.
"Slots of the Harvard roster for a future NBA lottery pick?" Harvard does not award athletic scholarships (rolls eyes), so there was no problem with a scholarship limit. Then, who and how many are on the team is a matter for the school. So, no problem.
Then, your unasked question: "Could Wendell transfer to Harvard after already having enrolled at Duke?" I think the answer is "no" -- Harvard is a Division I NCAA school for hoops and subject to the same transfer rules as anyone else.

[devilsince1977]

Brandon Ingram's parents must be furious.

[1991 duke law]

For what it's worth, Wendell was recently on Pardon My Take (https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/pmt-6-22-chicago-bulls-1st-round-pick-wendell-carter-jr-ryan-whitney-and-mt-rushmore-of-insults) and claimed his parents always wanted him to go to Harvard, to the point of continuing to wear Harvard gear around Wendell after he had decided on Duke to try and change his mind.

The problem with the Carters’ ongoing positioning of Harvard as a possible destination for Wendell is that there seems little reasonable doubt that he would if he could leave college after two semesters. So whether you go to Harvard for one year, Duke for one year or Kentucky – academics is not the driver behind your choice school. No one would criticize that decision – as someone earlier noted - making 100+ million before you are 40 is not something you pass up easily in order to complete your education.

[dudog84]

For what it's worth, Wendell was recently on Pardon My Take (https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/pmt-6-22-chicago-bulls-1st-round-pick-wendell-carter-jr-ryan-whitney-and-mt-rushmore-of-insults) and claimed his parents always wanted him to go to Harvard, to the point of continuing to wear Harvard gear around Wendell after he had decided on Duke to try and change his mind.

Just another example of the disingenuousness of Mrs. Carter. If anything, going to Harvard would have hurt his draft stock, not enhanced it. No one was going to be impressed by him beating up on lesser competition. They played 2 ranked teams the entire year, none after December 2. If I'm an NBA GM, it would raise questions in my mind about his desire for competition and whether he avoided it by his choice. The NBA doesn't care where he plays, they just want to see him compete. Case in point, the high schooler ranked immediately behind him who decided he could just work out and impress the NBA scouts, and he dropped to the 2nd round.

That example should also shut up anyone who whines that the schools take advantage of these kids. What they do is provide them a showcase. Plenty of advantage being taken by everyone.

This may very well be my last post regarding Duke basketball (I'll still lurk in Off-Topic since I enjoy y'all). I had already become disillusioned by the Duke OAD culture, and the NCAA response to the uNC malfeasance was the final straw. Now we have the carping of multi-millionaires' parents. I wrote when uNC happened that I would watch Grayson's senior season and then was done supporting anything to do with the corrupt NCAA. I like to think that I can stick to my guns, that I wasn't guilty of tossing out a throwaway line. It will be difficult, it's been a long passionate association and Duke (I originally wrote "we" but can't do that anymore) will have some amazing talent next year. But I ditched my beloved Steelers when they signed a dog-torturer, so I think I can get through it.

And believe me, I fully understand that neither Duke University, Duke basketball, nor the NCAA give a rat's behind about my decision.

[curtis325]

Just another example of the disingenuousness of Mrs. Carter. If anything, going to Harvard would have hurt his draft stock, not enhanced it. No one was going to be impressed by him beating up on lesser competition. They played 2 ranked teams the entire year, none after December 2. If I'm an NBA GM, it would raise questions in my mind about his desire for competition and whether he avoided it by his choice. The NBA doesn't care where he plays, they just want to see him compete. Case in point, the high schooler ranked immediately behind him who decided he could just work out and impress the NBA scouts, and he dropped to the 2nd round.

That example should also shut up anyone who whines that the schools take advantage of these kids. What they do is provide them a showcase. Plenty of advantage being taken by everyone.

This may very well be my last post regarding Duke basketball (I'll still lurk in Off-Topic since I enjoy y'all). I had already become disillusioned by the Duke OAD culture, and the NCAA response to the uNC malfeasance was the final straw. Now we have the carping of multi-millionaires' parents. I wrote when uNC happened that I would watch Grayson's senior season and then was done supporting anything to do with the corrupt NCAA. I like to think that I can stick to my guns, that I wasn't guilty of tossing out a throwaway line. It will be difficult, it's been a long passionate association and Duke (I originally wrote "we" but can't do that anymore) will have some amazing talent next year. But I ditched my beloved Steelers when they signed a dog-torturer, so I think I can get through it.

And believe me, I fully understand that neither Duke University, Duke basketball, nor the NCAA give a rat's behind about my decision.


Many of us at DBR will miss you. Happy trails to you! Maybe we'll see you in Off-Topic.

[Wahoo2000]

I disagree - I do not think the dynamic is all that different. You want to put student athletes – particularly those who play basketball – in a special place where they are guaranteed certain parameters associated with their coming to a school. With the primary guarantee being the contents of the roster.

At the end of the day, a student athlete can make that demand and elect not to go to a school if it does not submit to his demand. Good luck with that - most coaches would not agree although practically speaking most could agree as they would have little to no chance of getting a Bagley (let alone a Carter).

But more importantly, and this is where I have a real issue with your position, any top 10 player can choose to go to any school that he wants. And if that top 10 player wants to ensure that he is the biggest fish in a small pond - in other words, if he wishes to ensure that he is not competing for playing time with other recruits - he can select almost 340 colleges where that will not be an issue. In fact, it would be hard to identify 10 colleges in which it would be an issue.

So to synthesize my point - Wendell Carter could have chosen almost 340 other colleges in which he would have been ‘guaranteed’ that no similarly ranked player would compete with him for exposure (and let’s be clear, this was not an issue of minutes - Wendell got his minutes). If he wanted that guarantee, he could have gone to BC, Clemson, Miami, NC State, Wake, UVA, Pitt etc. Heck - he allegedly seriously considered Harvard. Little chance that Harvard would find a competing post player.

But his mom and dad chose Duke. Not because Duke had the best academics (Harvard has a slightly higher reputation 😢) but because they wanted to symbiotically “use” Duke for a year as a spring board to the NBA.

So when Mrs. Carter moans and complains - again, I am not in agreement. She did not mind Wendell jumping ahead of Bolden - that was fine. Many people like to applaud her for standing up and stating her displeasure - but the more I consider her arguments (particularly in the context of her son’s situation), they seem increasingly weak and unpersuasive.

I think the crux of the whole thing is that the Carters were under the impression (not going to get into whether it's true or not) that K was 'promising' Carter was their last big man recruit for that year, and that K was planning to design the whole offense around Carter and to feature him. Carter's issue seems to be that Duke aggressively "chased" Bagley, and in their minds went back on their "word" given to the Carter family. We'll never know the EXACT wording/phrasing/etc K used in conversations with Carter and family, so hard for any of us to know the full story. Could range anywhere from the Carters hearing what they wanted and misinterpreting, to K deciding it was worth breaking faith with one player/family for the shot at a truly transcendent player.

[DukieInKansas]

I know Duke was recruiting Bagley but when he reclassified, he was still considering 3 schools (Duke, Arizona, & USC). So was it Duke pushing him to reclassify or Duke going along with his decision to reclassify. If the former, I could see how Mrs. Carter might feel that pushing her son into "second chair" position. If the latter, Duke was folloiwng through on a commitment made to Bagley when they offered him in 9th grade. (An article I just read indicated the offer was made that early. http://www.latimes.com/sports/highschool/varsity-times/la-sp-high-school-sports-updates-marvin-bagley-1502750570-htmlstory.html)


eta: I can't see any program, with a scholarship available, telling a talent like Bagley that we want you but not until next year. That isn't remotely realistic, in my opinion.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I know Duke was recruiting Bagley but when he reclassified, he was still considering 3 schools (Duke, Arizona, & USC). So was it Duke pushing him to reclassify or Duke going along with his decision to reclassify. If the former, I could see how Mrs. Carter might feel that pushing her son into "second chair" position. If the latter, Duke was folloiwng through on a commitment made to Bagley when they offered him in 9th grade. (An article I just read indicated the offer was made that early. http://www.latimes.com/sports/highschool/varsity-times/la-sp-high-school-sports-updates-marvin-bagley-1502750570-htmlstory.html)

Bagley's decision to reclassify was very carefully orchestrated and I am sure that Duke and the other schools were actively involved in the process. Contrary to popular opinion, Duke is still first and foremost a school of higher learning. Though with a prospect like Bagley, I'm sure admissions is largely a rubber stamp, they still had to sign off on this. And the NCAA also had to sign off on this. Though I never saw extremely detailed reporting on the topic, Bagley seemed to be taking a non-traditional approach, likely cramming in classes at the last second to make himself eligible. So I'm sure Duke and the other schools were actively counseling him regarding what classes he needed, how best to present his case to the NCAA, and how to present the case to their own admissions departments. I'm guessing these were classes that 99.9% of Duke applicants and a vast majority of college applicants do not normally take so some research was required.

So yes, it is highly unlikely that Bagley just called Duke up and said "Guess what? I completed all of my coursework and I'm ready to show up on campus next week. Please ask Danny Ferry if he will let me borrow his retired number for a year and I will be there shortly."

As you can tell, and I have said it all along, I loved having Marvin on the team this year and I think he represented the university extremely well, but I did not love how the process was handled.

That being said, there is nothing Carter could have done at this point. I'm guessing that if Wendell was on campus when this was happening (I believe he was), he likely had at least some sense of what was happening. I highly doubt that Coach K made any promises to him about this. And his future earnings were likely not significantly impaired by this - he got to spend a year practicing and playing with a generational talent, Duke likely went further in the tournament and got more exposure because of Bagley's present, and it is highly unlikely that Carter would have been drafted much higher or gotten a materially larger endorsement deal if Bagley didn't show up.

I'm not sure why I continue to read this thread. The whole thing is ridiculous. Like many things in society, if we just stopped paying attention to it, it would likely end a lot more easily. I guess I am at fault as much as anyone for keeping things going. I wish Wendell the best of luck in his career in the NBA.

[sagegrouse]

Bagley's decision to reclassify was very carefully orchestrated and I am sure that Duke and the other schools were actively involved in the process. Contrary to popular opinion, Duke is still first and foremost a school of higher learning. Though with a prospect like Bagley, I'm sure admissions is largely a rubber stamp, they still had to sign off on this. And the NCAA also had to sign off on this. Though I never saw extremely detailed reporting on the topic, Bagley seemed to be taking a non-traditional approach, likely cramming in classes at the last second to make himself eligible. So I'm sure Duke and the other schools were actively counseling him regarding what classes he needed, how best to present his case to the NCAA, and how to present the case to their own admissions departments. I'm guessing these were classes that 99.9% of Duke applicants and a vast majority of college applicants do not normally take so some research was required.

The point is, Duke was recruiting Bagley, regardless of his HS class. If Marvin indicates his interest in coming a year early, I wouldn't expect Duke to say no.

[duke79]

I think the crux of the whole thing is that the Carters were under the impression (not going to get into whether it's true or not) that K was 'promising' Carter was their last big man recruit for that year, and that K was planning to design the whole offense around Carter and to feature him. Carter's issue seems to be that Duke aggressively "chased" Bagley, and in their minds went back on their "word" given to the Carter family. We'll never know the EXACT wording/phrasing/etc K used in conversations with Carter and family, so hard for any of us to know the full story. Could range anywhere from the Carters hearing what they wanted and misinterpreting, to K deciding it was worth breaking faith with one player/family for the shot at a truly transcendent player.

This MAY be the closest to the truth, IMHO.


Bagley's decision to reclassify was very carefully orchestrated and I am sure that Duke and the other schools were actively involved in the process. Contrary to popular opinion, Duke is still first and foremost a school of higher learning. Though with a prospect like Bagley, I'm sure admissions is largely a rubber stamp, they still had to sign off on this. And the NCAA also had to sign off on this. Though I never saw extremely detailed reporting on the topic, Bagley seemed to be taking a non-traditional approach, likely cramming in classes at the last second to make himself eligible. So I'm sure Duke and the other schools were actively counseling him regarding what classes he needed, how best to present his case to the NCAA, and how to present the case to their own admissions departments. I'm guessing these were classes that 99.9% of Duke applicants and a vast majority of college applicants do not normally take so some research was required.

So yes, it is highly unlikely that Bagley just called Duke up and said "Guess what? I completed all of my coursework and I'm ready to show up on campus next week. Please ask Danny Ferry if he will let me borrow his retired number for a year and I will be there shortly."

As you can tell, and I have said it all along, I loved having Marvin on the team this year and I think he represented the university extremely well, but I did not love how the process was handled.

That being said, there is nothing Carter could have done at this point. I'm guessing that if Wendell was on campus when this was happening (I believe he was), he likely had at least some sense of what was happening. I highly doubt that Coach K made any promises to him about this. And his future earnings were likely not significantly impaired by this - he got to spend a year practicing and playing with a generational talent, Duke likely went further in the tournament and got more exposure because of Bagley's present, and it is highly unlikely that Carter would have been drafted much higher or gotten a materially larger endorsement deal if Bagley didn't show up.

I'm not sure why I continue to read this thread. The whole thing is ridiculous. Like many things in society, if we just stopped paying attention to it, it would likely end a lot more easily. I guess I am at fault as much as anyone for keeping things going. I wish Wendell the best of luck in his career in the NBA.

Yea, and again IMHO, it's time to end this thread! It seems like almost everything that could be said (or should be said) HAS been said. Time to put this whole "incident" to bed and move on. From their most recent statements, I think even the Carter's realize that what they allegedly said have backfired somewhat on them and they are trying to walk it back.

[Jeffrey]

Bagley's decision to reclassify was very carefully orchestrated and I am sure that Duke and the other schools were actively involved in the process.

IMO, Marvin should have been assisted in his reclassification effort.

Wendell could not have made money in the NBA last year.

Marvin is older (a couple weeks) and better than Wendell. IMO, it only makes sense (given the age restriction) that the NBA got to see Marvin play college hoops before drafting him.

[johnb]

If Wendell's mother is simply money grubbing, she shouldn't be speaking out when she knows that incendiary comments reduce her son's commercial opportunities.

If she were only interested in the NBA, she shouldn't have been encouraging him to choose Harvard/Amaker when Duke/K is the obvious path to the NBA.

If she were only interested in quick money, she shouldn't have encouraged him to consider a 2nd year at Duke, which she did AFTER his freshman year.

If she were only interested in self aggrandizement, she shouldn't have made clear that her son would be making the decisions.

If she were only interested in her own son's finances after a year of NCAA basketball, well, that would be weird... he was considered by the NBA to be the 7th best amateur basketball player in the world and is now rich.

Her willingness to speak candidly was not, imho, about money or fame or protecting her son's PT. It's about seeking her version of the truth. And truth is complicated.

Most athletes--including Tiger and Michael--serve up baby food to their fans. Why? I assume they've been told that they will lose sponsors if they are seen as threatening to their middle class audience (with "threatening" meaning "black" and "middle class" meaning "white.").

The reason that I enter this fray is not to test the moderators or the civility of DBR but because one of our own--Wendell Carter--is being savaged on this thread when he, himself, has said nothing negative about Duke. That is, to me, unacceptable.

His mother has said quite a lot about institutional structure, power, and race. You may believe we are in a post racial society or that people should just shut up about potential discrimination (against athletes, the powerless, minorities, etc), especially when they are getting free tuition and possibly even NBA wealth. Maybe you'd just rather watch basketball and not have to engage in a discussion. I have my views. You have yours. Fine. None of that is DBR material.

What is specific to a DBR thread is that people are throwing the mother of a player under a bus because she decided to address the complexity and paradox of college/professional sport--and despite the fact that she concludes her discussions with love and appreciation for Duke. In essence, Mrs. Carter appears to be saying that--regardless of circumstances--she is going to speak her mind, which presumably she will do long after the tv cameras shift to other subjects.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when one of our own is trying to do the right thing, I believe that respect is our proper response.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If Wendell's mother is simply money grubbing, she shouldn't be speaking out when she knows that incendiary comments reduce her son's commercial opportunities.

If she were only interested in the NBA, she shouldn't have been encouraging him to choose Harvard/Amaker when Duke/K is the obvious path to the NBA.

If she were only interested in quick money, she shouldn't have encouraged him to consider a 2nd year at Duke, which she did AFTER his freshman year.

If she were only interested in self aggrandizement, she shouldn't have made clear that her son would be making the decisions.

If she were only interested in her own son's finances after a year of NCAA basketball, well, that would be weird... he was considered by the NBA to be the 7th best amateur basketball player in the world and is now rich.

Her willingness to speak candidly was not, imho, about money or fame or protecting her son's PT. It's about seeking her version of the truth. And truth is complicated.

Most athletes--including Tiger and Michael--serve up baby food to their fans. Why? I assume they've been told that they will lose sponsors if they are seen as threatening to their middle class audience (with "threatening" meaning "black" and "middle class" meaning "white.").

The reason that I enter this fray is not to test the moderators or the civility of DBR but because one of our own--Wendell Carter--is being savaged on this thread when he, himself, has said nothing negative about Duke. That is, to me, unacceptable.

His mother has said quite a lot about institutional structure, power, and race. You may believe we are in a post racial society or that people should just shut up about potential discrimination (against athletes, the powerless, minorities, etc), especially when they are getting free tuition and possibly even NBA wealth. Maybe you'd just rather watch basketball and not have to engage in a discussion. I have my views. You have yours. Fine. None of that is DBR material.

What is specific to a DBR thread is that people are throwing the mother of a player under a bus because she decided to address the complexity and paradox of college/professional sport--and despite the fact that she concludes her discussions with love and appreciation for Duke. In essence, Mrs. Carter appears to be saying that--regardless of circumstances--she is going to speak her mind, which presumably she will do long after the tv cameras shift to other subjects.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when one of our own is trying to do the right thing, I believe that respect is our proper response.

I am in the minority, but I agree with every word you posted. Sporks forthcoming.

Edit: Mod gods have deemed that I cannot offer you sporks today. My agreement must be sufficient.

[Furniture]

The reason that I enter this fray is not to test the moderators or the civility of DBR but because one of our own--Wendell Carter--is being savaged on this thread when he, himself, has said nothing negative about Duke. That is, to me, unacceptable.


What is specific to a DBR thread is that people are throwing the mother of a player under a bus because she decided to address the complexity and paradox of college/professional sport--and despite the fact that she concludes her discussions with love and appreciation for Duke. In essence, Mrs. Carter appears to be saying that--regardless of circumstances--she is going to speak her mind, which presumably she will do long after the tv cameras shift to other subjects.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when one of our own is trying to do the right thing, I believe that respect is our proper response.

I have read quite a lot of this thread and

1) I didn’t notice any savaging or Wendall and
2) what I did read is a lot of questioning of a mother seeming criticizing K and Duke in giving preference to another player (Bags) to her sons detriment especially considering where he ended up.

Perfectly acceptable in my mind for a Duke fan to be disaponted with Wendell’s mother.

[1991 duke law]

If Wendell's mother is simply money grubbing, she shouldn't be speaking out when she knows that incendiary comments reduce her son's commercial opportunities.

If she were only interested in the NBA, she shouldn't have been encouraging him to choose Harvard/Amaker when Duke/K is the obvious path to the NBA.

If she were only interested in quick money, she shouldn't have encouraged him to consider a 2nd year at Duke, which she did AFTER his freshman year.

If she were only interested in self aggrandizement, she shouldn't have made clear that her son would be making the decisions.

If she were only interested in her own son's finances after a year of NCAA basketball, well, that would be weird... he was considered by the NBA to be the 7th best amateur basketball player in the world and is now rich.

Her willingness to speak candidly was not, imho, about money or fame or protecting her son's PT. It's about seeking her version of the truth. And truth is complicated.

Most athletes--including Tiger and Michael--serve up baby food to their fans. Why? I assume they've been told that they will lose sponsors if they are seen as threatening to their middle class audience (with "threatening" meaning "black" and "middle class" meaning "white.").

The reason that I enter this fray is not to test the moderators or the civility of DBR but because one of our own--Wendell Carter--is being savaged on this thread when he, himself, has said nothing negative about Duke. That is, to me, unacceptable.

His mother has said quite a lot about institutional structure, power, and race. You may believe we are in a post racial society or that people should just shut up about potential discrimination (against athletes, the powerless, minorities, etc), especially when they are getting free tuition and possibly even NBA wealth. Maybe you'd just rather watch basketball and not have to engage in a discussion. I have my views. You have yours. Fine. None of that is DBR material.

What is specific to a DBR thread is that people are throwing the mother of a player under a bus because she decided to address the complexity and paradox of college/professional sport--and despite the fact that she concludes her discussions with love and appreciation for Duke. In essence, Mrs. Carter appears to be saying that--regardless of circumstances--she is going to speak her mind, which presumably she will do long after the tv cameras shift to other subjects.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when one of our own is trying to do the right thing, I believe that respect is our proper response.


Personally I welcome your post. Everyone has a right to their own view and perspective, and if it is supported with rational and fair analysis everyone benefits from the input.

I personally have nothing negative to say about Wendell as he has not said or done anything that I am aware of that would merit such commentary. Everything about him from day one through to today seems exemplary. What his mother says has nothing to do with what any of us should think about him.

Mrs. Carter is entitled to her views and opinions. But so is everyone else. And all one can expect is fair, rational and even handed discussions.

What Mrs. Carter truly wants or believes is not easy to discern from a couple of interviews. We all know that reporters want to spin and have no issue with taking comments out of context. So unless she is willing to sit down with us for a few hours to chat about issues, there is a large degree of speculation based on a limited amount of information.

I do not doubt that Mrs. Carter would have liked her son to be a Harvard graduate. I do not doubt that Mrs. Carter would have liked her son to have obtained a Duke degree. I also do not doubt that Mrs. Carter was supportive of a decision to attend a college that would maximize her son’s opportunity to bridge into a lucrative NBA contract. Finally, I do not doubt that Mrs. Carter was supportive of her son leaving college after one year to make millions of dollars.

I do not believe that everyone on this thread is throwing Mrs. Carter under a bus. However, they may disagree with her. This disagreement may be with part of what she has said, little of what she has said or much of what she has had. Certainly her last interview left a negative mark on Coach K. And that does not assist the Duke program. I should note – it may be what she has said is correct and fair. But it still does not help the Duke program.

So I do not agree with you that “respect is the proper response“ to everything Mrs. Carter has said. I do agree, however, that you have to be respectful in your disagreement with her.

[budwom]

^ good post. And I would note, having read much of what Mrs. Carter has said, that Mrs. Carter frequently does not agree with what Mrs. Carter has said.

[arnie]

If Wendell's mother is simply money grubbing, she shouldn't be speaking out when she knows that incendiary comments reduce her son's commercial opportunities.

If she were only interested in the NBA, she shouldn't have been encouraging him to choose Harvard/Amaker when Duke/K is the obvious path to the NBA.

If she were only interested in quick money, she shouldn't have encouraged him to consider a 2nd year at Duke, which she did AFTER his freshman year.

If she were only interested in self aggrandizement, she shouldn't have made clear that her son would be making the decisions.

If she were only interested in her own son's finances after a year of NCAA basketball, well, that would be weird... he was considered by the NBA to be the 7th best amateur basketball player in the world and is now rich.

Her willingness to speak candidly was not, imho, about money or fame or protecting her son's PT. It's about seeking her version of the truth. And truth is complicated.

Most athletes--including Tiger and Michael--serve up baby food to their fans. Why? I assume they've been told that they will lose sponsors if they are seen as threatening to their middle class audience (with "threatening" meaning "black" and "middle class" meaning "white.").

The reason that I enter this fray is not to test the moderators or the civility of DBR but because one of our own--Wendell Carter--is being savaged on this thread when he, himself, has said nothing negative about Duke. That is, to me, unacceptable.

His mother has said quite a lot about institutional structure, power, and race. You may believe we are in a post racial society or that people should just shut up about potential discrimination (against athletes, the powerless, minorities, etc), especially when they are getting free tuition and possibly even NBA wealth. Maybe you'd just rather watch basketball and not have to engage in a discussion. I have my views. You have yours. Fine. None of that is DBR material.

What is specific to a DBR thread is that people are throwing the mother of a player under a bus because she decided to address the complexity and paradox of college/professional sport--and despite the fact that she concludes her discussions with love and appreciation for Duke. In essence, Mrs. Carter appears to be saying that--regardless of circumstances--she is going to speak her mind, which presumably she will do long after the tv cameras shift to other subjects.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when one of our own is trying to do the right thing, I believe that respect is our proper response.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/23434636/former-duke-basketball-star-wendell-carter-mother-likens-ncaa-system-slavery

I’m not that concerned with Mrs. Carter’s views regarding Duke or Coach K “lying”. For all I know he may have not been straightforward with her.

However, I simply can’t get past her slavery comparison. I find her comments extremely offensive and ignorant of US history and current sex slave trade practices. Also, the NBA draft assigns players to specific teams with players having no choice where to play. If one thinks NCAA engages in slavery, then why not the NBA.

[golfinesquire]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/23434636/former-duke-basketball-star-wendell-carter-mother-likens-ncaa-system-slavery

I’m not that concerned with Mrs. Carter’s views regarding Duke or Coach K “lying”. For all I know he may have not been straightforward with her.

However, I simply can’t get past her slavery comparison. I find her comments extremely offensive and ignorant of US history and current sex slave trade practices. Also, the NBA draft assigns players to specific teams with players having no choice where to play. If one thinks NCAA engages in slavery, then why not the NBA.

The slavery comment was unfortunate but her point was cerainly woth considering. Universities make a lot of money off the basketball players. The coaches and admimistrators are predominantl white and the players predominantly black. She was trying to point out the absurdity of the system by noting that the only ones with such disparities were prisons and slavery. Did she go too far, sure. Could she have been better served by writing out what she meant so that her words were more carefully spoken, again sure. But I don’t think her comments show ignorance and given how much she and her son loved Duke, any claim that she was likening his experience there to slavery, to me, is silly and shows a definite patronizing and mansplaining. I am not calling you out Arnie, I am making a more general reference to the comments that have gone back and forth. The students don’t have the power to take on the NCAA but she is willing to and I for one think that is grrat.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The slavery comment was unfortunate but her point was cerainly woth considering. Universities make a lot of money off the basketball players. .

And on the other hand, the players get a lot of notoriety, amazing travel, the best medical care and equipment, and a built in fawning fan base and great training off of the universities...there are no losers here, and to pretend otherwise is absurd.

[sagegrouse]

The slavery comment was unfortunate but her point was cerainly woth considering. Universities make a lot of money off the basketball players. The coaches and admimistrators are predominantl white and the players predominantly black. She was trying to point out the absurdity of the system by noting that the only ones with such disparities were prisons and slavery. Did she go too far, sure. Could she have been better served by writing out what she meant so that her words were more carefully spoken, again sure. But I don’t think her comments show ignorance and given how much she and her son loved Duke, any claim that she was likening his experience there to slavery, to me, is silly and shows a definite patronizing and mansplaining. I am not calling you out Arnie, I am making a more general reference to the comments that have gone back and forth. The students don’t have the power to take on the NCAA but she is willing to and I for one think that is grrat.

Her legitimate complaint is primarily that the NBA will not accept players younger than 19, so he passed up on some level of NBA income plus endorsements for one year. OK, legitimate beef -- but it is only one year, agreed to by the NBPA and enshrined in the Collective Bargaining Agreement. So he waited a year and then inked a deal worth a minimum of $10 million. I can't work up any sympathy for the 12-month delay. Moreover, lots of professions have entry limitations

Secondarily, she is ostensibly criticizing the colleges for not allowing a player to earn a competitive salary for (in Wendell's case) his one year in school by not allowing "bidding for players" or outside income. We have had loads of intelligent discussion on this topic on DBR. I personally support the NCAA's "amateur" or "student-athlete" model where all scholarship athletes are paid the same. It protects competition and it leads to loads and loads of scholarships for athletes in non-revenue sports. Others think that a more market-oriented solution would be preferable, even if it runs the risk of upsetting the college sports apple cart. But, for heaven's sakes Ms. Carter, Wendell was a one-and-done player from the git-go, and it's only 12 months between high school and a multi-million dollar professional contract.

I think we can be spared the histrionics.

[Furniture]

She can complain about the NCAA all she likes but if she complains about Duke then I am up for a fight (well not really).

[rsvman]

If Wendell's mother is simply money grubbing, she shouldn't be speaking out when she knows that incendiary comments reduce her son's commercial opportunities.

If she were only interested in the NBA, she shouldn't have been encouraging him to choose Harvard/Amaker when Duke/K is the obvious path to the NBA.

If she were only interested in quick money, she shouldn't have encouraged him to consider a 2nd year at Duke, which she did AFTER his freshman year.

If she were only interested in self aggrandizement, she shouldn't have made clear that her son would be making the decisions.

If she were only interested in her own son's finances after a year of NCAA basketball, well, that would be weird... he was considered by the NBA to be the 7th best amateur basketball player in the world and is now rich.

Her willingness to speak candidly was not, imho, about money or fame or protecting her son's PT. It's about seeking her version of the truth. And truth is complicated.

Most athletes--including Tiger and Michael--serve up baby food to their fans. Why? I assume they've been told that they will lose sponsors if they are seen as threatening to their middle class audience (with "threatening" meaning "black" and "middle class" meaning "white.").

The reason that I enter this fray is not to test the moderators or the civility of DBR but because one of our own--Wendell Carter--is being savaged on this thread when he, himself, has said nothing negative about Duke. That is, to me, unacceptable.

His mother has said quite a lot about institutional structure, power, and race. You may believe we are in a post racial society or that people should just shut up about potential discrimination (against athletes, the powerless, minorities, etc), especially when they are getting free tuition and possibly even NBA wealth. Maybe you'd just rather watch basketball and not have to engage in a discussion. I have my views. You have yours. Fine. None of that is DBR material.

What is specific to a DBR thread is that people are throwing the mother of a player under a bus because she decided to address the complexity and paradox of college/professional sport--and despite the fact that she concludes her discussions with love and appreciation for Duke. In essence, Mrs. Carter appears to be saying that--regardless of circumstances--she is going to speak her mind, which presumably she will do long after the tv cameras shift to other subjects.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when one of our own is trying to do the right thing, I believe that respect is our proper response.

IMO, the first 5 sentences of your post demonstrate pretty clearly that she doesn't really know what she is trying to say. She hasn't really thought through her position clearly before speaking. She comes across as reactionary rather than rational.

In general, people are better served by thinking a bit more before speaking, and this applies doubly to somebody in the public eye as she has been.



To be clear, I don't think she's being disingenuous and I don't think she is intentionally trying to hurt Duke or Coach K. On the other hand, it certainly isn't irrational or mean to believe that the entire situation would be improved by her taking some time to think before she speaks.

[Sir Stealth]

Her willingness to speak candidly was not, imho, about money or fame or protecting her son's PT. It's about seeking her version of the truth. And truth is complicated.

Most athletes--including Tiger and Michael--serve up baby food to their fans. Why? I assume they've been told that they will lose sponsors if they are seen as threatening to their middle class audience (with "threatening" meaning "black" and "middle class" meaning "white.").

The reason that I enter this fray is not to test the moderators or the civility of DBR but because one of our own--Wendell Carter--is being savaged on this thread when he, himself, has said nothing negative about Duke. That is, to me, unacceptable.

His mother has said quite a lot about institutional structure, power, and race. You may believe we are in a post racial society or that people should just shut up about potential discrimination (against athletes, the powerless, minorities, etc), especially when they are getting free tuition and possibly even NBA wealth. Maybe you'd just rather watch basketball and not have to engage in a discussion. I have my views. You have yours. Fine. None of that is DBR material.

What is specific to a DBR thread is that people are throwing the mother of a player under a bus because she decided to address the complexity and paradox of college/professional sport--and despite the fact that she concludes her discussions with love and appreciation for Duke. In essence, Mrs. Carter appears to be saying that--regardless of circumstances--she is going to speak her mind, which presumably she will do long after the tv cameras shift to other subjects.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when one of our own is trying to do the right thing, I believe that respect is our proper response.

This is a thoughtful comment, except that it seems to be responding to a thread other than the one on this board. My impression is that most who have weighed in have expressed positive thoughts about Wendell even if they are disappointed about how this has gone. Many have agreed with the general sentiment that issues raised by Mrs. Carter with regards to race and labor are valid and should be taken seriously, even if they take issue with the clarity of her message as it's been presented in the media, or the intersection of her comments on the subject with Wendell's experience at Duke. I have not seen much "savaging" of anyone, or an expression of the belief that anyone should just shut up about discrimination.

One can be respectful of someone and the subject matter that they are discussing without agreeing that they have made their point clearly or fairly (especially with regard to Duke). Engaging with the substance of the comments does not disparage Mrs. Carter's ability to speak her mind. And I think that most who have been critical are happy to see positive comments about Duke that have come out from the Carters since a lot of what generated this discussion. But a more effective defense of Wendell and his Mom would address the actual criticism of their comments that's taken place rather than whatever ignorant, disrespectful piling on of the Carters has been imagined here.

[jacone21]

Still?

[Newton_14]

Folks, I think we have covered every angle of this and said all that needs saying. Time to move past this.