Semi Ojeleye and Duke

[DukeTrinity11]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2018/05/family_faith_pave_semi_ojeleye_s_path_to_home_with _celtics

I just read this article in the Boston Herald which chronicled Semi's life: his parents immigrating from Nigeria, Ojeleye growing up in Kansas, his experiences at Duke and SMU as well as his growth which resulted in his current role with the Celtics.

His parents clearly didn't see eye to eye with Nate James and Coach K on his role while at Duke. This was posted on a UK board where they used it to rail on Coach K's character but it's tough to read between the lines sometimes in journalism. His parents seem to have exaggerated their accounts of meeting with the Duke coaching staff but its tough to say.

What are the board's thoughts? Was Semi just a victim of the "churn and burn" of the OAD process or did we not properly utilize or evaluate his talent?

Ojeleye is turning into one of the better wing defenders in the NBA and Stevens is utilizing him as the primary defensive stopper on star players like Giannis and Ben Simmons so I'm very happy for him, even if he was only at Duke for a short while.

[kAzE]

Well, as far 2014-15 goes, I'm pretty sure no one outside of Semi's parents believe things should have been done differently. It was unfortunate for Semi that a more talented version of himself (Justise Winslow) came to Duke, and pushed him out of the rotation. However, I thought Semi could have been a really important guy on the 2015-16 team. He would have been the 6th or 7th man by my calculations, especially after Amile went down with that foot injury. He certainly could helped that team on the defensive end, where we were an absolute disaster.

Still, you can't totally blame his parents for wanting to transfer. He was spectacular in his 1 year at SMU, won conference player of the year, and got drafted by one of the best sports franchises in the world. I'm happy for him, and I'm glad he he's living out his dream.

[UrinalCake]

The article definitely portrays K and James in an extremely negative way. Hard to know how much happened in the way the parents described versus how much was embellished. I always felt like we tried to use Semi as a post player and he wanted to be a guard. He really blossomed after leaving, but maybe the struggles he faced at Duke were part of what drove him to improve.

[fraggler]

From an SI article written last year:

"A lack of maturity stalled him; as Ojeleye puts it, he never learned a skill as small as taking the two or three minutes after class to clear his mind for the day’s work. “Not knowing how to bring my best every day, not knowing how to prepare myself mentally, to get myself to a point where you can play at the highest level,” Ojeleye says. “I did not handle that.” He says he grew anxious about what was ahead on a daily basis. He couldn’t find the “peace about everything” that has come naturally with age. And he wouldn’t stick around long enough to find it in Durham, where he amassed 143 minutes and 46 points in barely more than one season.

“We always felt, and it’s proven to be true, that he’s an outstanding young man,” Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski says. “He came from a real small environment basketball-wise. There was going to be a process of adjustment, and he was making that progress. And obviously he’s made it. We’re happy for him.”

In his own words he wasn't ready or able to play at the highest level. I would discount everything else as salt or the standard anti-Duke sentiment.

source: https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/02/28/semi-ojeleye-smu-mustangs

[left_hook_lacey]

That whole scene in coach K's office that mama and papa recount, if true, is kind of weird and creepy sounding. She knelt in front of K after he yelled at her repeatedly? Just sounds weird man.

[Acymetric]

Well, as far 2014-15 goes, I'm pretty sure no one outside of Semi's parents believe things should have been done differently. It was unfortunate for Semi that a more talented version of himself (Justise Winslow) came to Duke, and pushed him out of the rotation. However, I thought Semi could have been a really important guy on the 2015-16 team. He would have been the 6th or 7th man by my calculations, especially after Amile went down with that foot injury. He certainly could helped that team on the defensive end, where we were an absolute disaster.

Still, you can't totally blame his parents for wanting to transfer. He was spectacular in his 1 year at SMU, won conference player of the year, and got drafted by one of the best sports franchises in the world. I'm happy for him, and I'm glad he he's living out his dream.

Of course that spectacular year came after 2 years of development at Duke and one year developing as a transfer-redshirt at SMU. Based on his own statements, it sounds like maybe he needed all that time. I always liked Semi and was not upset when he transferred (I was disappointed to lose him, but had no problem with him for doing it), very cool to see him doing so well in the NBA, especially alongside Tatum and (sometimes) Kyrie.

[chris13]

My parents live near Ottawa, KS and I imagine the Frontier League (the high school conference Ottawa is in) is probably less competitive than the high school leagues of most Duke basketball players. Ottawa is a small town and they play teams from other small Kansas towns. Coach K was dead on with the "He came from a real small environment basketball-wise" comment.

Also, I could see the culture shock of going from Ottawa to Duke as being more pronounced as say coming to Duke from DC, NY, or the Triangle.

Glad everything has worked out for all concerned and note that Semi himself took the high road. The story itself was a fascinating look into an immigrant's journey.

[DukieInBrasil]

The article definitely portrays K and James in an extremely negative way. Hard to know how much happened in the way the parents described versus how much was embellished. I always felt like we tried to use Semi as a post player and he wanted to be a guard. He really blossomed after leaving, but maybe the struggles he faced at Duke were part of what drove him to improve.

I never thought we tried to use Semi as a post player, considering that nearly all of the shots he took were 3s. His Fr. year he hit like 5 of 9 3s, and in his 1 So. semester he hit like 22%, which caused him to get increasingly less playing time, ie he wasn't doing the one thing well that he was being asked to do or insisted on doing.


That whole scene in coach K's office that mama and papa recount, if true, is kind of weird and creepy sounding. She knelt in front of K after he yelled at her repeatedly? Just sounds weird man.

Sounds rather fabricated to me. Also, K has always been vocal about not having it when parents try to make playing time decisions, see: Kris Humphries.

Anyway, I'm glad that Semi made his way to the Celtics and that he's started some playoff games despite not being a huge part of their regular season. His build and athleticism go with his defensive aptitude quite well, so he'll be getting paid a lot of money over time.

[CDu]

Of course that spectacular year came after 2 years of development at Duke and one year developing as a transfer-redshirt at SMU. Based on his own statements, it sounds like maybe he needed all that time. I always liked Semi and was not upset when he transferred (I was disappointed to lose him, but had no problem with him for doing it), very cool to see him doing so well in the NBA, especially alongside Tatum and (sometimes) Kyrie.

Well, 1.5 years at Duke and 1.5 years at SMU. He transferred midseason, then redshirted the second half of his first full year at SMU.

But yeah, like Gbinije before him, some guys just take longer for it to click. And for both, they felt their opportunities were best elsewhere. Can't blame them or fault them. Duke is a tough place to play, and only a few guys get to experience being a star player while at here. Clearly, it worked out well for both guys, as they became eventual stars at other D1 schools and made it to the NBA.

[left_hook_lacey]

I never thought we tried to use Semi as a post player, considering that nearly all of the shots he took were 3s. His Fr. year he hit like 5 of 9 3s, and in his 1 So. semester he hit like 22%, which caused him to get increasingly less playing time, ie he wasn't doing the one thing well that he was being asked to do or insisted on doing.



Sounds rather fabricated to me. Also, K has always been vocal about not having it when parents try to make playing time decisions, see: Kris Humphries.

Anyway, I'm glad that Semi made his way to the Celtics and that he's started some playoff games despite not being a huge part of their regular season. His build and athleticism go with his defensive aptitude quite well, so he'll be getting paid a lot of money over time.

That's the part I'm struggling with. It's the story of a deeply religious immigrant family that made all their dreams come true through hard work, faith, and determination. But they made up, or embellished their encounter with Coach K?

Either their whole story is embellished, which is totally possible, or they didn't embellish any of it, also possible.

[Acymetric]

That's the part I'm struggling with. It's the story of a deeply religious immigrant family that made all their dreams come true through hard work, faith, and determination. But they made up, or embellished their encounter with Coach K?

Either their whole story is embellished, which is totally possible, or they didn't embellish any of it, also possible.

Also possible that their interpretation of what happened is different than how someone else might of interpreted it, for some of the reasons you mention at the beginning of your post. Certainly potential for some cultural misunderstandings. In other words, there may be no (intentional) embellishment on the part of the family, but Duke/Coach K might still be able to truthfully dispute the events as described. Just to add a third possibility.

To me it seems like K possibly got annoyed with the line of discussion (and it was not the first time the discussion was had) and probably responded as such. And that annoyance/frustration may well have been interpreted as rage by the family. But only the folks in the room know for sure.

[Billy Dat]

The fact that an article like that appears in a major American newspaper is a horrible look for K. The vision of him jumping out of his chair saying, "Am I a liar?" and Semi's mother dropping to her knees and crying at his feet seems insane...and exactly what the haters already suspect "the true K" is like.

Like any story, there are 3 sides...one side, the other side and the truth. It is hard to imagine that it went down the way they say, I can't imagine K treating anyone's mother that way...a father, maybe.

For those interested, this was the Duke Bball response to the reporter, included in the article, “While we are not going to comment on specific conversations between parents and members of our coaching staff, we understand that transfer situations are sometimes emotional. Our entire Duke Basketball staff enjoyed Semi Ojeleye’s year-and-a-half as a member of our program, and since granting him his full release, we have followed his career as he progressed into the professional player our staff envisioned him to be. We wish him nothing but the best.”

[jimsumner]

I never thought we tried to use Semi as a post player, considering that nearly all of the shots he took were 3s. His Fr. year he hit like 5 of 9 3s, and in his 1 So. semester he hit like 22%, which caused him to get increasingly less playing time, ie he wasn't doing the one thing well that he was being asked to do or insisted on doing.

.

Actually, that was one of the problems. Ojeleye was strong, quick and could jump out of the proverbial gym.

But his ball skills were raw and unrefined.

Duke thought he could best help the team close to the basket, while refining his perimeter skills over time and eventually moving outside.

He wanted to come in and jack up 3s.

Note also that in his admittedly small sample size at Duke, Ojeleye had three assists and five turnovers in 143 minutes. One assist every 48 minutes does not scream ACC perimeter player.

So, there was some friction.

I suspect he would have been a rotation player at Duke in 2016 and 2017 had he stayed. But he almost certainly would not have gotten the touches and opportunities he got at SMU. He ended up with a degree from a quality institution and a role on one of the NBA's better teams. I wish he had stayed. But it's hard to argue with his decision.

[bullettoothtony]

That whole scene in coach K's office that mama and papa recount, if true, is kind of weird and creepy sounding. She knelt in front of K after he yelled at her repeatedly? Just sounds weird man.

That is just very hard to believe. And yes, utterly bizarre.

[Owen Meany]

Its great that people here, or Duke fans in general, are willing to question Coach K, when appropriate. I would be embarrassed, if, for example, Fans and, most importantly, the University as a whole, was willing to turn a blind eye to the academic fraud that took place at UNC. So I read this article with an open mind, and a realization that people can get angry and respond inappropriately, etc.


Its very difficult to discern the truth about events you didn't witness. Different people view the same situation differently. With that said, I call BS on this story. Although I would normally be reluctant to challenge the veracity of someone in this situation, this story is so ridiculous and over the top that I am confident in saying this did not happen as it is being portrayed.


There is no way Nate James called up the family of a player (or former player depending on the timing) just to denigrate their son. It did not happen. He may well have called to say "We have asked Semi to work on his rebounding, his defense. He wants to shoot 3's. He has things to work on. He has only been here 1 year. He has 3 left. Things will get better, but he has to develop". Or something similar. (In fact, I recall Semi saying something similar during the draft process. That when he was at Duke he wasn't mature enough to realize the things he needed to work on, etc.) But I am extremely confident that he did not call to denigrate the kid. Is it possible a hypersensitive parent could misinterpret the call this badly? I guess so. Its also possible they could take offense to legitimate criticism and grossly exaggerate it in order to hurt the party they felt aggrieved by.


There is no way that Coach K jumped out of his chair and screamed at a woman who was kneeling in the floor before him with tears running down her face. It did not happen. Even if you are willing to accept this ridiculous story, it is clear that Mrs. Ojeleye is a very emotional person if she dropped to her knees, crying and asking for forgiveness. As such, every comment that she made needs to be looked at through the lens of someone very quick to take offense and prone to very emotional responses. Given what little I can gleam from this interview, I have no trouble believing that encounters with the Ojeleye family were very emotional.


I am sure that there are significant cultural differences that may have caused confusion or heightened emotions here. Mrs. Ojeleye may be an extremely humble person who only wanted to ask a question and was so dismayed that she may have caused offense that she dropped to her knees and begged forgiveness. But I have a very difficult time squaring away that individual with the one who spoke to a reporter so confidently and freely about Coach K's terrible behavior. She trashed him. And not reluctantly.

[MarkD83]

The truth is most likely somewhere in between the parents account and what we expect from Coach K.

First, Coach K has always expressed the view that everyone gains playing time by the way that they practice. He also has expressed the view that he is helping young men mature. Part of maturing is being told the truth about your skills without the comments being "sugar-coated" and second is taking responsibility to express your grievances on your own and not through an intermediary (parents).

So I could absolutely see Coach K saying "Am I lying?" to a parent or a player. He is going to tell you what he thinks, even more so in a private setting. Would he also be a bit irritated himself if he were explaining a situation to a parent rather than to the player? Of course because the issue is between a player and a coach.

Semi actually seemed to recognize this in his comments about not being able to turn off the rest of his day and focus at practice.

Now as a parent I most definitely want the best for my kids and will stick up for them if I feel they are being unfairly treated. However, you also need to assess the situation and at Duke, Coach K is building relationships with the players and wants them to stick up for themselves. Any parent walking into Coach K's office to plead the case for their son might well get a hostile reception. That does not mean Coach K is not concerned about the player.

[wavedukefan70s]

I believe the reporter may have taken some liberties with what ever conversations he had with the Ojeleye family.truth stretched to provide sensationalism. I'm sure that isn't the way it all happened. semi's own accounts don't mesh with that story.
you see parents all the time proclaiming their child the next star in any sport you choose.(drives me nuts) .very few are right.

[left_hook_lacey]

Also possible that their interpretation of what happened is different than how someone else might of interpreted it, for some of the reasons you mention at the beginning of your post. Certainly potential for some cultural misunderstandings. In other words, there may be no (intentional) embellishment on the part of the family, but Duke/Coach K might still be able to truthfully dispute the events as described. Just to add a third possibility.

To me it seems like K possibly got annoyed with the line of discussion (and it was not the first time the discussion was had) and probably responded as such. And that annoyance/frustration may well have been interpreted as rage by the family. But only the folks in the room know for sure.

This may be the case more so than I first realized. I was just talking to a co-worker of mine about this article. He's is a UNC grad and is from Africa and he had read about it this morning. He said her kneeling during the argument was a cultural thing. It meant that she was showing respect to coach K's position, and also, that she was coming in peace, not looking for a fight. In his opinion though, Coack K must have really been aggressive for her to feel she needed to go to that move to make peace.

But like you said, I wasn't there, so who knows how it really went down.

[elvis14]

Well, as far 2014-15 goes, I'm pretty sure no one outside of Semi's parents believe things should have been done differently.

At the risk of having this derail into the age old discussion of the short bench and/or the OAD...Semi is one of the players that I thought should have been given more court time. When you have a OAD and a less skilled player who's going to be here multiple years there's a balance between winning games and getting court time for the multi-year player. I thought that was something we did rather poorly this past season as well.

I'm happy for Semi, wish he would have stuck it out at Duke. I think he would have been successful here as well. It's bothersome that his parents report so poorly on communication with our coaching staff. I also caught the line in the article about the older Duke players not communicating well with the younger players (of course we've solved that now by not having older players).

[flyingdutchdevil]

At the risk of having this derail into the age old discussion of the short bench and/or the OAD...Semi is one of the players that I thought should have been given more court time. When you have a OAD and a less skilled player who's going to be here multiple years there's a balance between winning games and getting court time for the multi-year player. I thought that was something we did rather poorly this past season as well.

I'm happy for Semi, wish he would have stuck it out at Duke. I think he would have been successful here as well. It's bothersome that his parents report so poorly on communication with our coaching staff. I also caught the line in the article about the older Duke players not communicating well with the younger players (of course we've solved that now by not having older players).

I agree with everything here. Semi was a product of getting "recruited over". Semi's sophomore year in 2014-15 came with competing with Amile Jefferson and Justise Winslow. No way Semi gets minutes over those guys. And if he stuck around in 2015-16, he'd compete against a senior Jefferson and a freshman Ingram. No one Semi plays over them. And as a senior in 2016-17, Semi would compete with Amile Jefferson, Jayson Tatum, and Harry Giles.

And yes, Coach K would absolutely still go after Ingram, Giles, and Tatum with Semi on board. Coach K would be foolish not to.

Semi absolutely made the right move by transferring. He would have been the poster child for "recruiting over".

[subzero02]

James was very prophetic. Injuries have played a huge role in Semi's playing time. I agree with posters who said cultural differences likely played a huge role in how Semi's parents interpreted events at Duke. I really think Semi would have become a first or second round pick had he remained at Duke but I am glad he has found success in the path that he chose.

[proelitedota]

K is short-tempered and impatient. It's not out of the ordinary for him to be in a heated confrontation with a parent here and there. I can even believe the yelling detailed in this article as a one off outlier story.

In regards to celebrities and people in power, the "bad" side that they keep hidden is usually exposed by multiple accounts from multiple people. We don't have enough accounts to establish that K has any major personality faults outside of occasional bad temperament.

I am not going to discredit his parents' account. However, I'm going to wait for a pattern of these emerging before I condemn K's character.

[weezie]

...I call BS on this story....this story is so ridiculous and over the top that I am confident in saying this did not happen as it is being portrayed...There is no way that Coach K jumped out of his chair and screamed at a woman who was kneeling in the floor before him with tears running down her face. It did not happen...


I'm with Owen. This story is about two parents aggrandizing themselves. Utter baloney.

[Troublemaker]

From the article:

Semi still talks in positive terms about his experience at Duke. “Just needed a fresh start,” he said. “It wasn’t that I didn’t think it was a good place. It was a great place — that’s why I went there. But for me, I got the opportunity to grow as a player and person and start over.”


Why would Semi still have positive feelings about Duke if one of our assistant coaches made a phone call just to denigrate him and previously our head coach yelled at his kneeling mother? That doesn't add up to me.

I have a close family member who is a serial exaggerator. I love this person and would die for this person, but I also know to take their stories and reduce them to 10% of how they're portraying things. That might be the relationship Semi has with his parents, I suspect.

That said...


Actually, that was one of the problems. Ojeleye was strong, quick and could jump out of the proverbial gym.

But his ball skills were raw and unrefined.

Duke thought he could best help the team close to the basket, while refining his perimeter skills over time and eventually moving outside.

He wanted to come in and jack up 3s.

If so, I'd have to side with Semi on this one. Shooting is so important in modern basketball that it was silly to not develop him as a stretch 4 or even stretch 5, both for his own future and for Duke's own success. Sem's shooting stats in high school (http://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/semi-ojeleye/bY3B1fTmEeKZ5AAmVebBJg/gendersport/basketball-stats.htm) (both from 3 and from FT) showed that he had shooting talent. Forcing him inside was seemingly a mistake.

Good for Semi to transfer to SMU where he was able to shoot 42% on 5 attempts/gm (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/players/playerpage/2104069/semi-ojeleye) in his one season there. That made him a draftable prospect.


I agree with everything here. Semi was a product of getting "recruited over". Semi's sophomore year in 2014-15 came with competing with Amile Jefferson and Justise Winslow. No way Semi gets minutes over those guys. And if he stuck around in 2015-16, he'd compete against a senior Jefferson and a freshman Ingram. No one Semi plays over them. And as a senior in 2016-17, Semi would compete with Amile Jefferson, Jayson Tatum, and Harry Giles.

If Duke was prescient enough to develop Semi as a stretch 4, he could've played alongside Amile and Brandon in the frontcourt. Sounds like we weren't prescient, though.

[Matches]

No way he doesn't get big minutes on the 2016 team after Jefferson's injury. That team was *crazy* thin - we were tripping over ourselves trying to get something out of Chase Jeter that year when it was clear he was horribly overmatched. Of course Semi had no way to know Amile would get hurt and miss most of that season.

[Wander]

There is no way Nate James called up the family of a player (or former player depending on the timing) just to denigrate their son. It did not happen.

You gotta watch more House of Cards or something. Obviously, I have no idea specifically if Nate James did this. But this type of thing definitely happens.

[kAzE]

You gotta watch more House of Cards or something. Obviously, I have no idea specifically if Nate James did this. But this type of thing definitely happens.

So are you comparing our coaching staff to an insanely corrupt fictitious White House administration? How many murder cover ups do we have on our hands here? We might have whack Coach Capel. He knows too much.

All kidding aside, I just don't think there's any reason Coach James would do that just out of spite. This is total speculation, but maybe he called for a legitimate reason, and the conversation went in that direction, due to the father's obvious and justifiable loyalty to his own kid. But if that really happened the way Semi's dad said it did, I think Coach James would have gotten a real earful from Coach K. We are too good of a program to be doing stuff like that.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

You gotta watch more House of Cards or something. Obviously, I have no idea specifically if Nate James did this. But this type of thing definitely happens.

Speaking as a house of cards savant, not to mention a political columnist, speaker, author etc....I don't see the analogy here...

[Duke79UNLV77]

The substance of what James and K allegedly said sounds direct and honest, and not cruel. Semi's later comments suggest that he got the message and doesn't necessarily disagree as to substance. I assume there was a difference in perception by the parents as to tone and intent that was not intended, or perhaps a bit of poetic license.

All of that said, in retrospect I would say that we underused Semi more than any other player in the K era. Most of the other transfers either never became big-time players at big-time schools, or already had significant roles at Duke. Gbinije became a big-time player at a big-time school, but only after 2 more years, including a year as a minor player at Syracuse. Given what Semi showed at SMU and has showed so far with the Celtics, I would think we could have found more rotation minutes for him early in his career and he eventually could have been a star for Duke. No one is perfect, and it's amazing how K has been proven to be right with most of our transfers.

[phaedrus]

Speaking as a house of cards savant, not to mention a political columnist, speaker, author etc...I don't see the analogy here...

The obvious tie-in is that House of Cards writer Billy Kennedy was a Duke athlete:

http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/article/writing-for-the-silver-screen

[Wander]

So are you comparing our coaching staff to an insanely corrupt fictitious White House administration? How many murder cover ups do we have on our hands here?


All the UNC players from that 2010 game in Cameron.

[jimsumner]

All of that said, in retrospect I would say that we underused Semi more than any other player in the K era. Most of the other transfers either never became big-time players at big-time schools, or already had significant roles at Duke. Gbinije became a big-time player at a big-time school, but only after 2 more years, including a year as a minor player at Syracuse.

Billy McCaffrey-Vanderbilt
Chris Burgess-Utah
Eric Boateng-Arizona State
Jamal Boykin-California
Elliott Williams-Memphis
Andre Sweet-Seton Hall
Gibinijie-Syracuse

All of these guys started at big-time schools. Sweet and Boykin actually started against Duke in the NCAAT.

Michael Thompson's (Northwestern) career ended with a heart problem. Mike Chappell contributed off the bench to a Michigan State title team. Numerous other transfers, e.g. Olek Czyz (Nevada), Crawford Palmer (Dartmouth), Joey Beard (Boston), Christian Ast (American), Greg Wendt (Detroit), et. al became top players at mid-majors.

Too early to tell about Thornton, Jeter and Tucker. But Chappell, Taylor King and perhaps Alex Murphy are the only K-era transfers who did not gain increased playing time and productivity at their new schools.

That's not to say K misevaluated them or failed to develop them. There are only 200 player-minutes per game to go around and it's a meritocracy. As early as the h.s. class of 1982 (Dawkins, Alarie, Henderson, Bilas), K was "recruiting over" guys like Mike Tissaw, Doug McNeely and Todd Anderson because his job is to improve the talent base not grandfather in playing time just for showing up.

Semi Ojeleye knew that coming in. Duke never promised him that they wouldn't recruit Justise Winslow or someone analogous. They promised him an opportunity to compete for PT and I'm reasonably certain that opportunity was granted to him.

[cato]

From the article:

Semi still talks in positive terms about his experience at Duke. “Just needed a fresh start,” he said. “It wasn’t that I didn’t think it was a good place. It was a great place — that’s why I went there. But for me, I got the opportunity to grow as a player and person and start over.”


Why would Semi still have positive feelings about Duke if one of our assistant coaches made a phone call just to denigrate him and previously our head coach yelled at his kneeling mother? That doesn't add up to me.

Well, we do not know exactly how Semi feels. Just that he is saying the rights things about Duke. His public comments may be 100% in line with his private ones, but he may also be picking and choosing what he says on record. He has nothing to gain from saying negatives things about Duke.

I have been at a few different law firms over my career, all in one relatively small legal market. One thing I learned early: there is no benefit to publicly badmouthing your former bosses, colleagues or partners.

Buy me a beer, on the other hand, and we can talk about some stuff off the record.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Well, we do not know exactly how Semi feels. Just that he is saying the rights things about Duke. His public comments may be 100% in line with his private ones, but he may also be picking and choosing what he says on record. He has nothing to gain from saying negatives things about Duke.

I have been at a few different law firms over my career, all in one relatively small legal market. One thing I learned early: there is no benefit to publicly badmouthing your former bosses, colleagues or partners.

Buy me a beer, on the other hand, and we can talk about some stuff off the record.

Yup. It's sour grapes.

Of course some transfers, and certainly some players, have had bad/negative experiences at Duke. That's only normal. You think every 4-year student (not student-athlete) at Duke enjoyed all 4 years and has only positive things about Duke? Come on now! That's ridiculous.

[Indoor66]

Yup. It's sour grapes.

Of course some transfers, and certainly some players, have had bad/negative experiences at Duke. That's only normal. You think every 4-year student (not student-athlete) at Duke enjoyed all 4 years and has only positive things about Duke? Come on now! That's ridiculous.

You mean it wasn't always a rose garden with no thorns? I'll be damned.

[kAzE]

The substance of what James and K allegedly said sounds direct and honest, and not cruel. Semi's later comments suggest that he got the message and doesn't necessarily disagree as to substance. I assume there was a difference in perception by the parents as to tone and intent that was not intended, or perhaps a bit of poetic license.

All of that said, in retrospect I would say that we underused Semi more than any other player in the K era. Most of the other transfers either never became big-time players at big-time schools, or already had significant roles at Duke. Gbinije became a big-time player at a big-time school, but only after 2 more years, including a year as a minor player at Syracuse. Given what Semi showed at SMU and has showed so far with the Celtics, I would think we could have found more rotation minutes for him early in his career and he eventually could have been a star for Duke. No one is perfect, and it's amazing how K has been proven to be right with most of our transfers.

Yeah, it's important to keep this perspective. Semi really seems to be the only transfer who went on to have this level of success.

Outside of Semi, there seems to be 3 types of Duke transfers in the Coach K era:

1. Guys who don't develop quickly enough to make it at Duke, but eventually find success at other programs
2. Guys who had some level of success at Duke, left for reasons other than playing time, and continued to have similar success at other programs
3. Guys who fell WAY short of expectations and/or total busts

Michael Gbinijie fits in to the first category. Gbinijie didn't become a major player until what would have been his 5th year of college. Chris Burgess, Jamal Boykin, Eric Boateng, Alex Murphy, and Olek Czyz did the exact same. In all likelihood, none of those five would have made a big impact for Duke in 4 years had they stayed in Durham. All of them made the correct decision in transferring. Chase Jeter should fall in this category at some point.

The second category is comprised of players like Bill McCaffrey, Eliot Williams, Rasheed Sulaimon, and Mike Chappelle, all of whom were good at Duke (Rasheed's behavior notwithstanding), and continued to be good players at their respective schools. Derryck Thornton could potentially end up in this category, but considering he still has two more years to play out at USC (and that his first year there was considerably LESS productive than his first year at Duke), it's tough to tell right now. So far, he's trending towards group number 3 . . .

. . . which is Michael Thompson, Taylor King, and Andre Sweet.

I think it's fair to say that just about everyone who transferred probably made the right decision for themselves to do so. Semi seems to be the only major "miss" by Coach K, in terms of a guy who should have made it at Duke, probably deserved more playing time, but didn't for whatever reason.

[flyingdutchdevil]

You mean it wasn't always a rose garden with no thorns? I'll be damned.

By reading some DBR posts on Coach K and the Duke program, you'd think it would be.

[mattman91]

Yeah, it's important to keep this perspective. Semi really seems to be the only transfer who went on to have this level of success.

Outside of Semi, there seems to be 3 types of Duke transfers in the Coach K era:

1. Guys who don't develop quickly enough to make it at Duke, but eventually find success at other programs
2. Guys who had some level of success at Duke, and continued to have similar success at other programs
3. Guys who fell WAY short of expectations and/or total busts

Michael Gbinijie fits in to the first category. Gbinijie didn't become a major player until what would have been his 5th year of college. Chris Burgess, Jamal Boykin, Eric Boateng, Alex Murphy, and Olek Czyz did the exact same. In all likelihood, none of those five would have made a big impact for Duke in 4 years had they stayed in Durham. All of them made the correct decision in transferring. Chase Jeter should fall in this category at some point.

The second category is comprised of players like Bill McCaffrey, Eliot Williams, Rasheed Sulaimon, and Mike Chappelle, all of whom were good at Duke (Rasheed's behavior notwithstanding), and continued to be good players at their respective schools. Derryck Thornton could potentially end up in this category, but considering he still has two more years to play out at USC (and that his first year was considerably LESS productive than his first year at Duke), it's tough to tell right now. So far, he's trending towards group number 3 . . .

. . . which is Michael Thompson, Taylor King, and Andre Sweet.

I think it's fair to say that just about everyone who transferred probably made the right decision for themselves to do so. Semi seems to be the only major "miss" by Coach K, in terms of a guy who probably deserved more playing time, but didn't for whatever reason.

All I remember him ever doing was jacking up threes every time he got in the game. Seemed like K wanted him to be something that he wasn't.

[Troublemaker]

Well, we do not know exactly how Semi feels. Just that he is saying the rights things about Duke. His public comments may be 100% in line with his private ones, but he may also be picking and choosing what he says on record. He has nothing to gain from saying negatives things about Duke.

I have been at a few different law firms over my career, all in one relatively small legal market. One thing I learned early: there is no benefit to publicly badmouthing your former bosses, colleagues or partners.

Buy me a beer, on the other hand, and we can talk about some stuff off the record.

I agree 100% but I think there is or should be a "mom rule" exception, though. It would be hard to blame Semi for badmouthing Duke if we really did yell at his crying, kneeling mom. Don't mess with momma.


Yup. It's sour grapes.

Of course some transfers, and certainly some players, have had bad/negative experiences at Duke. That's only normal. You think every 4-year student (not student-athlete) at Duke enjoyed all 4 years and has only positive things about Duke? Come on now! That's ridiculous.

Almost by definition, a transfer didn't have the perfect experience at Duke. The relevant question here is more whether Duke's coaches could've acted as callously as portrayed in this article. It just seems very unlikely, even putting aside our respect for and what we think we "know" about Coach James and Coach K. One can have serious doubts here without being a pollyanna.

[Steven43]

It was unfortunate for Semi that a more talented version of himself (Justise Winslow) came to Duke, and pushed him out of the rotation.
Are we sure Justise is more talented than Semi? I’d say that’s a pretty strong debate right about now. Which player do you think would garner more interest on the open market all things being equal (equal salaries, etc.)? I’m a lifetime Celtics fan and I honestly cannot say that I would rather have Justise on the C’s in place of Semi. I’m thinking maybe not.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Are we sure Justise is more talented than Semi? I’d say that’s a pretty strong debate right about now. Which player do you think would garner more interest on the open market all things being equal (equal salaries, etc.)? I’m a lifetime Celtics fan and I honestly cannot say that I would rather have Justise on the C’s in place of Semi. I’m thinking maybe not.

kaze is referring to 2014-15, not today. And in 2014-15, Winslow was by the far the more talented player.

[MartyClark]

Are we sure Justise is more talented than Semi? I’d say that’s a pretty strong debate right about now. Which player do you think would garner more interest on the open market all things being equal (equal salaries, etc.)? I’m a lifetime Celtics fan and I honestly cannot say that I would rather have Justise on the C’s in place of Semi. I’m thinking maybe not.

Very good question. I look back to the 2014/2015 season. I think Justise was clearly more valuable and better than Semi. Justise is not a perfect NBA player but, IMHO, he is still a better addition to any team, even the Celtics than Semi. I could be wrong and wish the best for both of these guys.

[Steven43]

Speaking as a house of cards savant, not to mention a political columnist, speaker, author etc...I don't see the analogy here...
Why do people say ‘not to mention’ when they clearly intend to mention it? I’ve often wondered.

Just messin’ with you, though. Unlike myself, You’re a good DBR poster—always polite and usually insightful.

[DukieInBrasil]

Are we sure Justise is more talented than Semi? I’d say that’s a pretty strong debate right about now. Which player do you think would garner more interest on the open market all things being equal (equal salaries, etc.)? I’m a lifetime Celtics fan and I honestly cannot say that I would rather have Justise on the C’s in place of Semi. I’m thinking maybe not.

as a rookie, 19 yr old Justise put up much better stats than 23 yr old Semi did as a rookie. In apples to apples comparisons, Justise put up much better numbers this year than Semi did. Both are highly valued for their defense, but Justise has developed himself into being valued on offense, somewhat.
Semi averaged 2.7 ppg on 34.6 and 32.0 on FG and 3FG%s, playing <16mpg. Justise averaged 7.6 ppg on 42.4 and 38.0 FG and 3FG% in <25mpg. In Justise's rookie year those numbers were 6.4, 42.2 and 27.6.
The big knock on Justise is that he doesn't finish in the lane very well. Semi only took 1/3 of his FGs from inside the 3pt line, so it's hard to know if he finishes in the lane at all.

I don't think Semi's value is higher than Justise's based on the numbers available at the moment.

[jimsumner]

IF sophomore Ojeleye had been better than freshman Winslow, sophomore Jones or junior Jefferson, at the beginning of the 2014-'15 season, then I suspect he would have played more than 63 minutes in the first semester, before transferring.

Duke had lost Jabari Parker, Rodney Hood, Josh Hairston and Andre Dawkins from the 2014 forward corps. There was playing time to be grabbed. Ojeleye didn't grab it.

[tbyers11]

Are we sure Justise is more talented than Semi? I’d say that’s a pretty strong debate right about now. Which player do you think would garner more interest on the open market all things being equal (equal salaries, etc.)? I’m a lifetime Celtics fan and I honestly cannot say that I would rather have Justise on the C’s in place of Semi. I’m thinking maybe not.

If Justise and Semi were both free agents this offseason. I'm pretty certain Justise would draw significantly more interest. Especially after his play in the playoffs and the fact that he improved his 3FG to 38% this year.

Justise (DOB 3/26/96) is also more than a year younger than Semi (DOB 12/5/94)

[Faison1]

Being in the client facing business, I can tell you some of those conversations can get pretty contentious, especially if you're dealing with different cultures and different styles of communication.

There's three things that tend to get people super emotional and at times irrational with their decision making: Money, Health, and Kids.

I consider myself a pretty patient person, especially when dealing with clients...but there comes a certain point when it's difficult to hold back, particularly when the same subject has been discussed many times and your integrity is being questioned simultaneously. I have definitely lost it once or twice.

So, I don't doubt K lost it...in fact it most likely happened. But what's said in an office should probably stay there. A badgering parent coming out in an article 4 years later seems like a pretty lame thing to do....

If I was K, I'd probably say, "Yes, it happened...they were a giant pain in my rear end, and I wasn't upset I wouldn't have to have that conversation again!!!"

[kAzE]

Are we sure Justise is more talented than Semi? I’d say that’s a pretty strong debate right about now. Which player do you think would garner more interest on the open market all things being equal (equal salaries, etc.)? I’m a lifetime Celtics fan and I honestly cannot say that I would rather have Justise on the C’s in place of Semi. I’m thinking maybe not.

I'm still going Justise, and it's not close. He's still a much better defender than Semi and has better ball handling, rebounding, and surprisingly . . . shooting. Justise struggled from the 3 point line his first 2 seasons, but really turned it around this year, shooting 38% from 3. Semi shot 32% on the year, but is just 28% from the 3 and overall from the field in the playoffs.

Also, despite going pro 2 years after Justise, Semi is nearly 1.5 years OLDER than Justise. Semi's birthday is 12/5/94, and Justise's is 3/26/96.

Give me Justise all day. He had some huge games towards the end of the regular season this year and is a major breakout candidate next year.

[Duke79UNLV77]

If the question is either Winslow or Semi, I agree. I think, though, the question should be if Semi was good enough to get regular rotation minutes that year and then be a 3rd scoring option to go with Ingram and Allen the next year. In retrospect, I think that’s a clear yes. McCaffrey and Gbinije are the only other Duke transfers who I would say became big time players at big time schools. McCaffrey was already getting plenty of minutes at Duke, but wanted to play point guard and wasn’t going to with Hurley. Ironically, while he thrived at Vandy, he did so as a shooter and perhaps exposed that he wasn’t really a point guard. Gbinije still was not ready for a significant role 2 years later at Syracuse. Semi may have been K’s one mistake (not talking about the alleged conversation).

[fraggler]

If the question is either Winslow or Semi, I agree. I think, though, the question should be if Semi was good enough to get regular rotation minutes that year and then be a 3rd scoring option to go with Ingram and Allen the next year. In retrospect, I think that’s a clear yes. McCaffrey and Gbinije are the only other Duke transfers who I would say became big time players at big time schools. McCaffrey was already getting plenty of minutes at Duke, but wanted to play point guard and wasn’t going to with Hurley. Ironically, while he thrived at Vandy, he did so as a shooter and perhaps exposed that he wasn’t really a point guard. Gbinije still was not ready for a significant role 2 years later at Syracuse. Semi may have been K’s one mistake (not talking about the alleged conversation).

Was it K's mistake? Semi himself has said he wasn't there mentally to play at the highest level. If he had stuck it out, he would have had plenty of opportunity the following year, playing the exact position he is now playing in the NBA (3/4 3 and D off the bench for a good team). And, he probably would have been a starter after Amile went down (on a Sweet 16 team that really could have used his athleticism against Oregon). Maybe K didn't play psychologist well enough, but players prove themselves in practice first, and then in games. Semi wasn't getting it done in his 1.5 years.

[Jeffrey]

I believe what they're saying. I also believe we are lacking significant context, which would probably help explain Coach K's and Coach James' reactions. Mrs. Ojeleye was apologizing and concerned that she appeared rude for a reason. Coach James called the family for a reason.

Answering to family members about a player's performance is an extremely difficult task! As a CEO, I have had numerous family member requests and have never spoken to any.

[ice-9]

Could I see that confrontation with Coach K and the parents happening? Yeah, I can.

I went through a performance review with an employee six months ago where the feedback was "you did OK, but not enough to get a promotion." Halfway through getting to why, she started crying, that it's not fair, she did what was asked (just not that well LOL), wailing about how she wants to get married and put a down payment for a house but can't without a pay raise, how could I do this to her, she was promised a promotion, etc. etc.

(Note this is a 30 year old Ivy League graduate.)

In my view of course I made no such promise. All possibilities are IF statements. "You can get X promotion IF..." And we simply disagree on whether she met the if condition. She did not.

Fast forward another 3 months, and in the next review I told her she was doing well enough to get a 5% raise but not more. Cue more wailing about how that's not enough, how she's suffering with taking a pay cut at my company, etc. etc...

Sorry, no matter how much you cry and plead -- she didn't kneel on the floor but spiritually it was close to it -- I'm not giving her a raise she didn't earn, while others have to earn theirs.

She tendered her resignation the next day and I'm pretty sure she's been complaining to people that she feels wronged, lied to and taken advantage of.

What're you gonna do? I'm sticking with what I believe in and if there's negative PR fallout, it is what it is.

So I can relate to Coach K here.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I believe what they're saying. I also believe we are lacking significant context, which would probably help explain Coach K's and Coach James' reactions. Mrs. Ojeleye was apologizing and concerned that she appeared rude for a reason. Coach James called the family for a reason.

Answering to family members about a player's performance is an extremely difficult task! As a CEO, I have had numerous family member requests and have never spoken to any.

Another thing.....this whole idea of yelling. Some people call any elevated voice volume "yelling" - when it's simply not the case. I don't think K or Nate James yelled at anyone. But like all coaches, they are used to communicating in loud arenas. Seems to me this was just an emotional conversation about an emotional issue.

[Trey21]

I was super disappointed when Semi left. I was really high on his potential as a junior/senior. Dude was built for the NBA at 18, and got buckets in high school. Remember that Sportscenter dunk in practice? You could tell he had the raw ability to get himself into the NBA, but he had to get the reps in sadly that didn't happen at Duke for two main reasons.

1) Weak High School Competition - took him awhile to adjust to high level college competition
2) Recruited Over - Came in with Jabari in class in 2013. Got recruited over when Winslow came in 2014.

I don't blame him for leaving, Duke isn't the best place for everyone to succeed unfortunately. Sometimes its miscommunication of expectations, that falls both K and Semi's camp to a degree. Sometimes it takes awhile for guys to find their footing in college and beyond, and places like Duke have the luxury of not having to really wait on these types of guys to improve in order to have team success (hello, 2015 chip). Sad couldn't develop his game longer at Duke, but I'm excited that he's cobbling together a career for himself in the NBA.

I'm really happy for him. He always seemed like a good dude, and like I've said before I loved his athletic game and potential stroke.

Regarding the Winslow debate: Winslow is better right now, it's not even close if y'all watch the games. Semi is basically a 3 and D player with non respected 3. Teams are willingly to live with him shooting those corner three's, but he's showing steady improvement. Defensively he's already a monster. He has All Defense potential with his width, strength, and lateral movement. He has done a great job these playoffs on folks like Ben Simmons who are used to just completely bullying their defenders around. If the Celtics make it to the East Finals to play the Cavs I imagine he'll get a decent amount of run trying to guard LeBron (though the Celtics have tons of players to do this Brown/Smart/Morris).

Winslow is better right now simply because he does way more than Semi. Winslow is like a Draymond Green-Lite. A guy who can guard 1-5 and can be a primary/secondary ball handler for team. His shot is steadily improving, but where he needs to improve the most is finishing at the rim. In my book he's already on the cusp of being an All Defensive type of player. Spo uses him so well with the Heat, Winslow ball hawked and pressured Ben Simmons which really caused him a ton of problems in some of those games. He isn't afraid of getting up into someone's grill like a Tony Allen, Pat Beverly and just completely dominating them.

"NBA plays no defense" pssshhhht yeah right...

Look at this clip where he just embarrasses CJ McCollum. Wouldn't that have been nice in March 2012? God, I miss Winslow.

https://streamable.com/87ilp

[DukieInBrasil]

I was super disappointed when Semi left. I was really high on his potential as a junior/senior. Dude was built for the NBA at 18, and got buckets in high school. Remember that Sportscenter dunk in practice? You could tell he had the raw ability to get himself into the NBA, but he had to get the reps in sadly that didn't happen at Duke for two main reasons.

1) Weak High School Competition - took him awhile to adjust to high level college competition
2) Recruited Over - Came in with Jabari in class in 2013. Got recruited over when Winslow came in 2014.

I don't blame him for leaving, Duke isn't the best place for everyone to succeed unfortunately. Sometimes its miscommunication of expectations, that falls both K and Semi's camp to a degree. Sometimes it takes awhile for guys to find their footing in college and beyond, and places like Duke have the luxury of not having to really wait on these types of guys to improve in order to have team success (hello, 2015 chip). Sad couldn't develop his game longer at Duke, but I'm excited that he's cobbling together a career for himself in the NBA.

I'm really happy for him. He always seemed like a good dude, and like I've said before I loved his athletic game and potential stroke.

Regarding the Winslow debate: Winslow is better right now, it's not even close if y'all watch the games. Semi is basically a 3 and D player with non respected 3. Teams are willingly to live with him shooting those corner three's, but he's showing steady improvement. Defensively he's already a monster. He has All Defense potential with his width, strength, and lateral movement. He has done a great job these playoffs on folks like Ben Simmons who are used to just completely bullying their defenders around. If the Celtics make it to the East Finals to play the Cavs I imagine he'll get a decent amount of run trying to guard LeBron (though the Celtics have tons of players to do this Brown/Smart/Morris).

Winslow is better right now simply because he does way more than Semi. Winslow is like a Draymond Green-Lite. A guy who can guard 1-5 and can be a primary/secondary ball handler for team. His shot is steadily improving, but where he needs to improve the most is finishing at the rim. In my book he's already on the cusp of being an All Defensive type of player. Spo uses him so well with the Heat, Winslow ball hawked and pressured Ben Simmons which really caused him a ton of problems in some of those games. He isn't afraid of getting up into someone's grill like a Tony Allen, Pat Beverly and just completely dominating them.

"NBA plays no defense" pssshhhht yeah right...

Look at this clip where he just embarrasses CJ McCollum. Wouldn't that have been nice in March 2012? God, I miss Winslow.

https://streamable.com/87ilp

an amazing defensive sequence, no doubt. One thing i've seen in a few highlights of Justise, and this is true for many players in the NBA, that i really don't like is just stopping playing while the game is still going to stare down the bench or otherwise just preen for the camera. Justise caused a turnover, a live ball steal for his team, and rather than following the fast break to perhaps be rewarded for a highlight slam he chose to pose for the camera and bask in how awesome he is. Maybe MIA scored easily on the break, but there was no guarantee that they would as 3 Blazers were getting back while Winslow was just standing there looking AWAY from the play, like a punk.
Great defensive play followed by the lamest possible thing he could have done.

[Trey21]

an amazing defensive sequence, no doubt. One thing i've seen in a few highlights of Justise, and this is true for many players in the NBA, that i really don't like is just stopping playing while the game is still going to stare down the bench or otherwise just preen for the camera. Justise caused a turnover, a live ball steal for his team, and rather than following the fast break to perhaps be rewarded for a highlight slam he chose to pose for the camera and bask in how awesome he is. Maybe MIA scored easily on the break, but there was no guarantee that they would as 3 Blazers were getting back while Winslow was just standing there looking AWAY from the play, like a punk.
Great defensive play followed by the lamest possible thing he could have done.

Hey, you're completely valid in your reasoning. You'd be a great coach.

But you're no fun.

*just a little light teasing*

[jimsumner]

People keep talking about Ojeleye being "recruited over."

I don't get it.

How can any coach develop a program without bringing in talent that in some way overlaps with existing talent?

Did K "recruit over" Marshall Plumlee with Jahlil Okafor, over Quinn Cook with Ty Jones, over Rasheed Sulaimon with Grayson Allen?

That was just one class.

Darn near every player of consequence brought in by K lessened the playing time of a holdover or three. Are we sorry K recruited over Doug McNeely with David Henderson, over Mike Tissaw with Mark Alarie?

Suspect not.

Did K promise Greg Koubek that he wouldn't recruit over him with Grant Hill? Did he promise Alaa Abdelnaby that he wouldn't recruit over him with Christian Laettner? Did he promise Chris Carrawell he wouldn't recruit over him with Corey Maggette?

I could burn down an internet forest with relevant examples.

I've never been in a recruiting meeting with K but I've talked to a lot of folks who have been. I'm pert near certain Ojeleye was told that Duke was a meritocracy, that Duke would continue to recruit top-tier talent, that he would be given every opportunity to compete for PT, that Duke would do its level best to develop his game as best they could.

But he had to meet them halfway. And no guarantees.

I mentioned this earlier but I think it bears repeating. Duke lost Jabari Parker, Rodney Hood, Josh Hairston and Andre Dawkins from the 2014 team. There was playing time up for grabs in the front court going into the 2015 season. If Ojeleye were good enough to earn that, he would have earned that.

The more-lightly-recruited Marshall Plumlee did get PT with that team.

Because he earned it.

Meritocracy.

Tissaw, McNeely, John Smith, Ricky Price, Greg Newton, Taymon Domzalski and Greg Paulus were all starters at Duke who lost their starting spots because someone else came along and player better. Price and Paulus were All-ACC performers who ended their careers with DNP-CDs in NCAAT losses.

Look at Carrawell. In 1999 he played ahead of a much more talented freshman, a player who would go on to play 14 seasons in the NBA because he worked off his derriere and brought so much value to that team that K could not afford to set him down.

I'm disappointed that Ojeleye left and I'm glad he found success elsewhere. It turned out well for him. But that whole "recruited over" narrative generates no sympathy from me.

[flyingdutchdevil]

People keep talking about Ojeleye being "recruited over."

I don't get it.

How can any coach develop a program without bringing in talent that in some way overlaps with existing talent?

Did K "recruit over" Marshall Plumlee with Jahlil Okafor, over Quinn Cook with Ty Jones, over Rasheed Sulaimon with Grayson Allen?

That was just one class.

Darn near every player of consequence brought in by K lessened the playing time of a holdover or three. Are we sorry K recruited over Doug McNeely with David Henderson, over Mike Tissaw with Mark Alarie?

Suspect not.

Did K promise Greg Koubek that he wouldn't recruit over him with Grant Hill? Did he promise Alaa Abdelnaby that he wouldn't recruit over him with Christian Laettner? Did he promise Chris Carrawell he wouldn't recruit over him with Corey Maggette?

I could burn down an internet forest with relevant examples.

I've never been in a recruiting meeting with K but I've talked to a lot of folks who have been. I'm pert near certain Ojeleye was told that Duke was a meritocracy, that Duke would continue to recruit top-tier talent, that he would be given every opportunity to compete for PT, that Duke would do its level best to develop his game as best they could.

But he had to meet them halfway. And no guarantees.

I mentioned this earlier but I think it bears repeating. Duke lost Jabari Parker, Rodney Hood, Josh Hairston and Andre Dawkins from the 2014 team. There was playing time up for grabs in the front court going into the 2015 season. If Ojeleye were good enough to earn that, he would have earned that.

The more-lightly-recruited Marshall Plumlee did get PT with that team.

Because he earned it.

Meritocracy.

Tissaw, McNeely, John Smith, Ricky Price, Greg Newton, Taymon Domzalski and Greg Paulus were all starters at Duke who lost their starting spots because someone else came along and player better. Price and Paulus were All-ACC performers who ended their careers with DNP-CDs in NCAAT losses.

Look at Carrawell. In 1999 he played ahead of a much more talented freshman, a player who would go on to play 14 seasons in the NBA because he worked off his derriere and brought so much value to that team that K could not afford to set him down.

I'm disappointed that Ojeleye left and I'm glad he found success elsewhere. It turned out well for him. But that whole "recruited over" narrative generates no sympathy from me.

By your definition, no player has ever been "recruited over". Not at Duke, not at Kentucky, not at any school.

A lot of folks used to slam Calipari for "recruiting over" players. You don't hear those same posters saying that anymore. Why? Because Coach K uses similar tactics. Maybe he doesn't "recruit over". Maybe he just recruits more talented, more ready players.

[jimsumner]

By your definition, no player has ever been "recruited over". Not at Duke, not at Kentucky, not at any school.

A lot of folks used to slam Calipari for "recruiting over" players. You don't hear those same posters saying that anymore. Why? Because Coach K uses similar tactics. Maybe he doesn't "recruit over". Maybe he just recruits more talented, more ready players.

IMO, a player is recruited over if a coach tells him/her that their position is safe for the duration of their career, that said coach will not recruit a player with the capability of pushing the incumbent out of their starting spot.

Pretty sure K hasn't done that. No competent coach would. K has always tried to elevate the talent base, within the context of recruiting players who complement the school and the program.

Calipari? I believe he has been criticized for being so overly-reliant on OAD talent that he has nudged players into the NBA who weren't ready, to their detriment.

Again, I'm pretty sure K hasn't done that.

But, no, I don't see how recruiting talent to a program that returns talent constitutes "recruiting over." Duke has brought in at least one McDonald's and/or Parade All-American every class since 1982, for crying out loud. K is going to target top-tier talent. Always has, always will. Players know that going in.

[Neals384]

There are so many players at Duke who weren't ready as frosh or sophs but made super contributions as upperclassmen. They kept working, listened to the coaches, and did what was asked of them. Was Semi putting in the work and making the effort to improve his game? Maybe, but it sure didn't look like it from what I saw on the court. At the time he transferred, to my eye he showed no indication of being ready or anywhere close to it. Had I been coaching and the family came by to ask why he wasn't playing more, I'd have been pretty blunt, and maybe a bit annoyed as well.

That said, I'm happy that he has been successful elsewhere.

[arnie]

IMO, a player is recruited over if a coach tells him/her that their position is safe for the duration of their career, that said coach will not recruit a player with the capability of pushing the incumbent out of their starting spot.

Pretty sure K hasn't done that. No competent coach would. K has always tried to elevate the talent base, within the context of recruiting players who complement the school and the program.

Calipari? I believe he has been criticized for being so overly-reliant on OAD talent that he has nudged players into the NBA who weren't ready, to their detriment.

Again, I'm pretty sure K hasn't done that.

But, no, I don't see how recruiting talent to a program that returns talent constitutes "recruiting over." Duke has brought in at least one McDonald's and/or Parade All-American every class since 1982, for crying out loud. K is going to target top-tier talent. Always has, always will. Players know that going in.

OMG, Jim you referenced Mike Tissaw in the same thread as Simi. Quite the disparity in talent. I also don’t recall Semi putting his hand though a glass door?😀

[Troublemaker]

By your definition, no player has ever been "recruited over". Not at Duke, not at Kentucky, not at any school.

Exactly. "Recruited over" should die. It is a meme that has existed even before the internet whenever fans of one school wanted to rag fans of a rival school about being less classy, even though counterexamples would be plentiful at the first school. It's always been silly. Unless you have literally only 5 players on your roster, you've recruited over someone and have impacted someone's playing time.

Kill the meme, not the coaches.

[jimsumner]

Let me briefly go back to Ojeleye and 2014-'15.

Duke had four core starters that season, Okafor, Cook, Winslow and T. Jones.

Jefferson was a returning starter. He began the 14-15 season as a starter. He lost that spot not because of poor play but more because Duke thought the best way to maximize Okafor's talents was to surround him with four shooters.

Jefferson continued to get rotation minutes but Matt Jones became the starter, with Winslow moving to the 4.

Jones and Ojeleye were both sophomores. One is playing in the NBA, one is not. Had Ojeleye been ready for the opportunity, it's not hard to imagine him taking over as the fifth starter, keeping Winslow at the 3, giving Duke more rebounding and interior D.

So, the opportunity was there, Winslow notwithstanding.

Let me give you an example from the pages of yesteryear.

Greg Koubek was a McDonald's and Parade All-America, a consensus top-20 recruit in the h.s class of 1987.

He played 357 minutes as a freshman, on a team with two senior wing starters, Billy King and Kevin Strickland.

Koubek increased his minutes to 533 as a sophomore but was unable to beat out Robert Brickey for a starting spot.

In the meantime, Duke had brought in Brian Davis and Thomas Hill in classes below Koubek. Note than Davis (class of '88) was a fallback after Duke missed on Bryant Stith, who almost certainly would have started as a freshman in 1989, ahead of Brickey and Koubek. Recruited over?

Koubek played 574 minutes as a junior, a little more than Davis but still backing up Brickey.

Brickey and Phil Henderson both used up their eligibility after the 1990 season, leaving senior co-captain Greg Koubek a starting spot for the asking.

Only Duke had brought in a freshman named Grant Hill.

But it wasn't just Grant. Thomas Hill, Davis and Billy McCaffrey had all improved their games more than Koubek.

He not only wasn't starting, he wasn't even playing. He decided to quit the team at the semester break.

But he and K had a meeting. Tough love. K went down the roster of wings-Grant Hill, Brian Davis, Thomas Hill, McCaffrey-and asked Koubek the same questions. Are you playing better than him? Are you giving me a reason to sit them and play you?

Koubek knew the answer. He was coasting.

Koubek did some soul-searching and decided to rededicate himself to his team and his craft.

K gave him another chance. Next game, Koubek came off the bench and drew a charge, went to the floor for a loose ball, injected a shot of energy.

By the end of the season, Greg Koubek was starting for a national championship team.

So, yes, frank, sometimes heated, discussions occur in the Duke basketball community.

Responses vary.

[BD80]

This K guy sounds like a pretty good coach ...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Let me briefly go back to Ojeleye and 2014-'15.

Duke had four core starters that season, Okafor, Cook, Winslow and T. Jones.

Jefferson was a returning starter. He began the 14-15 season as a starter. He lost that spot not because of poor play but more because Duke thought the best way to maximize Okafor's talents was to surround him with four shooters.

Jefferson continued to get rotation minutes but Matt Jones became the starter, with Winslow moving to the 4.

Jones and Ojeleye were both sophomores. One is playing in the NBA, one is not. Had Ojeleye been ready for the opportunity, it's not hard to imagine him taking over as the fifth starter, keeping Winslow at the 3, giving Duke more rebounding and interior D.

So, the opportunity was there, Winslow notwithstanding.


...............By the end of the season, Greg Koubek was starting for a national championship team.
.


So couple things....where was Rasheed in that 14-15 mix before he was dismissed. He was getting pretty good minutes wasn't he?

And good ole Koubek. If memory serves, he opened the scoring for Duke to break the ice v. Kansas in the title game....

[CDu]

So couple things...where was Rasheed in that 14-15 mix before he was dismissed. He was getting pretty good minutes wasn't he?

And good ole Koubek. If memory serves, he opened the scoring for Duke to break the ice v. Kansas in the title game...

Sulaimon was the 6th man, coming off the bench behind Tyus Jones and Cook. He only averaged 19 mpg though, and didn’t really interfere with Ojeleye.

[DukieInBrasil]

So couple things...where was Rasheed in that 14-15 mix before he was dismissed. He was getting pretty good minutes wasn't he?

And good ole Koubek. If memory serves, he opened the scoring for Duke to break the ice v. Kansas in the title game...

yup, Sulaimon was playing plenty of minutes prior to his dismissal, which happened after Semi transferred. So had Semi had even just one semester more worth of patience, it's possible he could have gotten more PT that year anyway. I'll trade Semi's PT for a Natty any day though. I'm glad that Semi figured out what he needed to do to max out on his potential and that he's now earning NBA paychecks. Good on 'im.

[jimsumner]

So couple things...where was Rasheed in that 14-15 mix before he was dismissed. He was getting pretty good minutes wasn't he?

And good ole Koubek. If memory serves, he opened the scoring for Duke to break the ice v. Kansas in the title game...

Koubek scored the first five points of the '91 title game against Kansas.

Ended the game with five points.

Sent a message, I suppose.

[Nugget]

Exactly. "Recruited over" should die. It is a meme that has existed even before the internet whenever fans of one school wanted to rag fans of a rival school about being less classy, even though counterexamples would be plentiful at the first school. It's always been silly. Unless you have literally only 5 players on your roster, you've recruited over someone and have impacted someone's playing time.

Kill the meme, not the coaches.

Before we put "recruited over" out of its misery, we should pause and marvel at what Calipari is in the middle of doing to Quade Green, who was usurped (rightly, based on performance) as the key ball-handler during his freshman season by Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, and who now faces the prospect of Kentucky not only signing the #4 PG in the following class (Immanuel Quickley), but also adding the #1 and #2 PGs in the class after that (Ashton Hagans and Tyrese Maxey), and having BOTH of them reclassify so that Kentucky would have four Top 5 PG recruits on next year's roster.

That's virtuoso "recruiting over."

[Jeffrey]

Could I see that confrontation with Coach K and the parents happening? Yeah, I can.

I went through a performance review with an employee six months ago where the feedback was "you did OK, but not enough to get a promotion." Halfway through getting to why, she started crying, that it's not fair, she did what was asked (just not that well LOL), wailing about how she wants to get married and put a down payment for a house but can't without a pay raise, how could I do this to her, she was promised a promotion, etc. etc.

(Note this is a 30 year old Ivy League graduate.)

In my view of course I made no such promise. All possibilities are IF statements. "You can get X promotion IF..." And we simply disagree on whether she met the if condition. She did not.

Fast forward another 3 months, and in the next review I told her she was doing well enough to get a 5% raise but not more. Cue more wailing about how that's not enough, how she's suffering with taking a pay cut at my company, etc. etc...

Sorry, no matter how much you cry and plead -- she didn't kneel on the floor but spiritually it was close to it -- I'm not giving her a raise she didn't earn, while others have to earn theirs.

She tendered her resignation the next day and I'm pretty sure she's been complaining to people that she feels wronged, lied to and taken advantage of.

What're you gonna do? I'm sticking with what I believe in and if there's negative PR fallout, it is what it is.

So I can relate to Coach K here.

Clearly, a boss needs to discuss the employee's performance with the employee, as you described. However, we are talking about discussing it with their mother, father, and, even, brother.

IIRC, Semi was 20 when these discussions occurred. At 20, I certainly did not want or need my Mommie to fight my fights for me. At 20, Semi and I could have been completing our second year of military service and I doubt our CO would have been listening to our parents complaints. IMO, K is kind to repeatedly entertain these discussions, which are very stressful and hardly ever end well.

[UrinalCake]

Here's what really happened...


8344

[Steven43]

Another thing....this whole idea of yelling. Some people call any elevated voice volume "yelling" - when it's simply not the case.
Absolutely 100% true. My wife does that ALL THE TIME, and it drives me crazy. To her, any elevation of the voice, particularly when delivering a stern or angry message (especially to the kids) is defined as ‘yellng’. It’s amazing how some people can just completely mischaracterize things.

[BD80]

absolutely 100% true. My wife does that all the time, and it drives me crazy. To her, any elevation of the voice, particularly when delivering a stern or angry message (especially to the kids) is defined as ‘yellng’. It’s amazing how some people can just completely mischaracterize things.

typing in all caps is yelling!

[tteettimes]

Absolutely 100% true. My wife does that ALL THE TIME, and it drives me crazy. To her, any elevation of the voice, particularly when delivering a stern or angry message (especially to the kids) is defined as ‘yellng’. It’s amazing how some people can just completely mischaracterize things.

🤗🤗🤗——-YEAH——-but I wouldn’t trade my lifetime of it ❤️❤️❤️🤗🤗🤗

[HereBeforeCoachK]

🤗🤗🤗——-YEAH——-but I wouldn’t trade my lifetime of it ❤️❤️❤️🤗🤗🤗

...I resemble that remark...

[fgb]

Koubek scored the first five points of the '91 title game against Kansas.

Ended the game with five points.

Sent a message, I suppose.


oh, and got a ring. will probably show it to his grandkids some day.

sort of like what could have been if skywalker had just listened to yoda.