NBA Playoffs 2018

[JasonEvans]

Post-season means a new thread for the conversation. I was toying with whether we should have a thread for general conversation and a separate one for talk about the performance of Duke players in the playoffs, but there are soooo many Dukies playing in the playoffs, it seems silly to separate the two.

So, consider this your collector thread for all playoff conversation.

-Jason "I'll get it started with this brief story (http://kstp.com/sports/minnesotas-own-tyus-jones-discusses-ending-timberwolves-14-year-playoff-drought/4862551/)about Minnesota native Tyus Jones celebrating the end of the TWolves looong playoff drought" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Here's a nice little story (https://www.celticsblog.com/2018/4/9/17217760/fast-forward-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown-and-terry-rozier-lead-the-boston-celtics-into-the-playoffs) about Jayson Tatum and the other young Celtics... and the baptism by fire they are about to undergo.


Jayson Tatum could (and should) be the best of the three. He heads into his first postseason as the number one option on offense. Circumstance aside, let that sink in for a moment. He has the tools and the makeup to be a truly special scorer in this league and there’s no better place to be refined than by the fire of the postseason. Rotations get shortened, coaches key on limiting the top threats, and there’s no room for error.

-Jason "in other news, Rodney Hood has been cleared to play again (https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/cavaliers-rodney-hood-cleared-for-playoff-opener/) and should be the starting SG for the Cavs in the post-season" Evans

[Acymetric]

(From the original NBA thread)


I honestly think the warriors injuries are karma for having 4 all stars, and I'm sick of them walking through the west. I don't want anyone injured (except, maybe, a couple star rockets so the wolves can beat them in this round), and I think the rockets-warriors series is going to be great, but honestly if curry doesn't play then Quinn keeps getting serious playing time.

But maybe not a ring. Depends on what you value more, and how important it is to you that the Rockets don't make the finals. Chris Paul could never win a game again and it would be perfectly fine with me, and I don't have much love for Harden either.

[Troublemaker]

I think his assumption was that we would all as Duke fans like to see Quinn win a ring, and that is the most likely way for it to happen this year. Certainly true in my case, any other team I would pick to pull for would be a distant second (would be either be the Philly or Boston).

For sure Quinn has the best chance. #2 would be Rodney with the Cavs, though. #3 is JJ with Philly. #4 would be Quin with the Jazz.

[awhom111]

So the Wizards signed Ty Lawson. Wasn't he in exile in China? He was, but his team lost the deciding game of the Semifinals, freeing him up to be signed by an NBA team just in the nick of time. He was less than brilliant in their loss, which has now led some Chinese fans to think that the tanking phenomenon had crossed the ocean and that he knew that he had to lose to get back into the NBA.

[LasVegas]

I’m not sure how to pull quotes from the closed thread but....

Cdu...I’m not hoping he stays injured. I’m just not hoping for his return to health. Fully neutral.

FDD.....yes, silly me. I should be banned for a few days for not remembering kyrie’s injury.

[phaedrus]

Here's a nice little story (https://www.celticsblog.com/2018/4/9/17217760/fast-forward-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown-and-terry-rozier-lead-the-boston-celtics-into-the-playoffs) about Jayson Tatum and the other young Celtics... and the baptism by fire they are about to undergo.



-Jason "in other news, Rodney Hood has been cleared to play again (https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/cavaliers-rodney-hood-cleared-for-playoff-opener/) and should be the starting SG for the Cavs in the post-season" Evans

Looking forward to watching Tatum vs. Parker in what might be Jabari's last games with the Bucks. After being eased back into the rotation, Jabari scored around 18 ppg in 33 minutes in April. He should be a big part of the series.

By the way, here's a link to season stats for all the Duke guys this year: http://bkref.com/tiny/3HNoj

[Troublemaker]

Quin Snyder receives Zach Lowe's vote for NBA Coach of the Year (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23107445/zach-lowe-2017-18-picks-nba-mvp-defensive-player-year-rookie-year-more-awards) (although Lowe predicts that either Stevens or Casey will win it).

Proud of Quin, the best coach in Duke's coaching tree

[DukieInBrasil]

Did Amile become eligible for the Playoffs, despite not playing in an NBA game? He was on the roster for a few games. Additionally, is MP3 eligible to play?

[pfrduke]

Did Amile become eligible for the Playoffs, despite not playing in an NBA game? He was on the roster for a few games. Additionally, is MP3 eligible to play?

RealGM suggests that Jefferson is on the T'wolves' playoff roster (https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Minnesota-Timberwolves/17/Rosters/Playoff/2018). Marshall, however, is not on the Bucks' playoff roster (https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Milwaukee-Bucks/16/Rosters/Playoff/2018).

[tbyers11]

Did Amile become eligible for the Playoffs, despite not playing in an NBA game? He was on the roster for a few games. Additionally, is MP3 eligible to play?

Yes, Amile's 2-way contract was converted to a standard NBA contract (https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/timberwolves-amile-jefferson-contract-converted-to-standard-deal/) making him eligible for the playoffs.

[Acymetric]

So this is free-agency related, not playoff related, but since this is the only NBA thread, here goes.

The Lakers are basically coming out and saying they are not just going to pay whoever they can get if they don't get who they want. It seems to me this would be an obvious management strategy, but teams seem to throw whatever available money they have at whoever the best free agent they can get is. Are there reasons (salary minimums) why teams would do this other than being so desperate to get someone that they hamstring themselves with bad contracts in years where they can't get solid high caliber players?

[Troublemaker]

So this is free-agency related, not playoff related, but since this is the only NBA thread, here goes.

The Lakers are basically coming out and saying they are not just going to pay whoever they can get if they don't get who they want. It seems to me this would be an obvious management strategy, but teams seem to throw whatever available money they have at whoever the best free agent they can get is. Are there reasons (salary minimums) why teams would do this other than being so desperate to get someone that they hamstring themselves with bad contracts in years where they can't get solid high caliber players?

There IS a salary cap floor (https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/01/two-teams-remain-below-201718-salary-floor.html), but that should just mean that teams should sign players to 1-year contracts to get over it. When teams have signed mediocre players to big long-term contracts before, it's usually just bad scouting, poor salary cap management, or impatient ownership who want to try to "win now," imo.

Note that the Lakers themselves were guilty of those things as recently as the summer of 2016 when they signed Luol and Mozgov to long-term contracts. The reason L.A. is being circumspect now is perhaps because they learned the lesson the hard way.

[Troublemaker]

1st-round matchups are below. Dukies are listed in blue. UNC players are listed in red for those interested in that. (Didn't want to use the vomit-inducing blue.)

Minutes per game for each player are also shown. Where there's a tilda (~), I'm guesstimating minutes for deep bench players since playoff rotations tend to be shorter.

Let me know if any mistakes or omissions.


EAST


1 Toronto Raptors
vs
8 Washington Wizards- Ty Lawson (~5 mpg)


4 Cleveland Cavaliers - Rodney Hood (25.3 mpg)
vs
5 Indiana Pacers - Assistant Coach David McClure


3 Philadelphia 76ers - JJ Redick (20.2 mpg)
vs
6 Miami Heat - Justise Winslow (24.7 mpg), Wayne Ellington (26.5 mpg), Director of Analytics Shane Battier, CEO Nick Arison


2 Boston Celtics - Jayson Tatum (30.5 mpg), Kyrie Irving (OUT for season), Co-Owner Stephen Pagliuca
vs
7 Milwaukee Bucks - Jabari Parker (24.0 mpg), John Henson (25.9 mpg), Tyler Zeller (16.9 mpg), Marshall Plumlee (unrostered)


WEST


1 Houston Rockets
vs
8 Minnesota Timberwolves - Tyus Jones (17.9 mpg), Amile Jefferson (~0 mpg)


4 Oklahoma City Thunder - Kyle Singler (~0 mpg), Raymond Felton (16.6 mpg), Director of Information Management Amanda Green
vs
5 Utah Jazz - Head Coach Quin Snyder, Assistant Coach Antonio Lang, Tony Bradley (~0 mpg)


3 Portland Trail Blazers - Ed Davis (18.9 mpg)
vs
6 New Orleans Pelicans - Frank Jackson (OUT for season)


2 Golden St Warriors - Quinn Cook (22.4 mpg)
vs
7 San Antonio Spurs - Danny Green (25.6 mpg), Assistant Coach Chip Engelland

[Turk]

Missed one:

3 Philadelphia 76ers - JJ Redick (20.2 mpg), Sixers Broadcaster Alaa Abdelnaby (OUT - ESPN/TNT Takeover)
vs
6 Miami Heat - Justise Winslow (24.7 mpg), Wayne Ellington (26.5 mpg), Director of Analytics Shane Battier, CEO Nick Arison

[sagegrouse]

Why this endless doting on UNC and its former players in the NBA? Most of them (but not all) are good guys once they change unis, and many are friends with their Duke contemporaries.

[Troublemaker]

Why this endless doting on UNC and its former players in the NBA? Most of them (but not all) are good guys once they change unis, and many are friends with their Duke contemporaries.

How is listing them "endless doting" on them? (And actually, seeing all that blue in my post and so little red actually isn't very flattering to UNC).

Look, some DBR readers don't follow the NBA and may want some minor help to find an angle to care about these matchups. A fun way to decide which team to root for could be to see how many Duke players (coaches, etc) and UNC players are on each team. Your mileage may vary.

The primary purpose of my post is to the list the Dukies, of course. But some may have interest in the UNC players, too. For those folks, it's easy enough for me to provide both. This is all in fun.

[sagegrouse]

How is listing them "endless doting" on them? (And actually, seeing all that blue in my post and so little red actually isn't very flattering to UNC).

Look, some DBR readers don't follow the NBA and may want some minor help to find an angle to care about these matchups. A fun way to decide which team to root for could be to see how many Duke players (coaches, etc) and UNC players are on each team. Your mileage may vary.

The primary purpose of my post is to the list the Dukies, of course. But some may have interest in the UNC players, too. For those folks, it's easy enough for me to provide both. This is all in fun.

You are not endlessly doting on UNC. I am offering an antidote to avoid the practice among others. I don't live in North Carolina and all my 4-5 yearly visits are to Duke. UNC is a rival, as far as I am concerned, but not an obsession.

Ciao,
Sage Grouse
'Although I did reverse the order of tee shirts in a shop at RDU yesterday to put the Duke ones in front'

[subzero02]

Why this endless doting on UNC and its former players in the NBA? Most of them (but not all) are good guys once they change unis, and many are friends with their Duke contemporaries.

Friends compare stats and talk trash too... It would be interesting to know the extent to which the Duke/unc rivalry permeates some match ups in the NBA. It has to be a factor for some players. I know it persists amongst UF, FSU and Miami players in the NFL and many of those guys have friendships that began in or before high school. I just can't see all of our players or their players letting bygones be bygones just because they're in the NBA.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Why this endless doting on UNC and its former players in the NBA? Most of them (but not all) are good guys once they change unis, and many are friends with their Duke contemporaries.

I see both sides if this. I agree that the individuals who wear the ugly light blue don't necessarily deserve the continued contempt, but then I remember as recently as the mid-90s, when K has started to really kick butt and take down nets, when UNC fans would fall to their last resort: Yeah, but Duke doesn't have anyone in the NBA.

So... I will allow it.

*bangs gavel*

[BlueTeuf]

How is "doting" the right word in this discussion? I think I understand what you're debating - but did the meaning of doting evolve (away from implying affection) over the last few decades?

[rsvman]

How is "doting" the right word in this discussion? I think I understand what you're debating - but did the meaning of doting evolve (away from implying affection) over the last few decades?

Not to my knowledge. I don't think it's the right word. Harping is closer to the intended meaning, I think.

[Turk]

Not to my knowledge. I don't think it's the right word. Harping is closer to the intended meaning, I think.

Didn't Harping play for Georgia Tech? I always liked his game....

"ohhhhh.... nevermind....."

[elvis14]

Why this endless doting on UNC and its former players in the NBA? Most of them (but not all) are good guys once they change unis, and many are friends with their Duke contemporaries.

I will n see them as good guys, once they wear that ugly light blue cheater uni. It was that way in the past but not it's worse because the current crop of UNCheat players chose to go to UNCheat after the cheating became known. "Good guys" don't go cheat when they know. I hope every UNCheat player misses every shot they ever take at any level right down to throwing wadded up trash into a waste basket. And yes, it is disappointing that Duke players befriend those cheaters.

[elvis14]

GSW game just started, and Quinn didn't get the start. Andre Iguodala starts. Bummer..but I get get it. AI plays good defense.

[Acymetric]

GSW game just started, and Quinn didn't get the start. Andre Iguodala starts. Bummer..but I get get it. AI plays good defense.

He's in the game now...and has scored the first (of many) Duke points in the playoffs!

[royalblue]

It’s very simple
Once they go and wear the shameful blue
I do not root for players, coaches and others that went to Uncch
If they are on a team I like I still hope they perform
Poorly.
Uncch always deserves being over looked or unfairly
Dissed
I feel better

Thank you

[Acymetric]

In fairly surprising development, Quinn also got the first Duke BLOCK of the playoffs.

[richardjackson199]

I'm so glad the Dubs signed Quinn. It's nice to have a good reason to root for the Warriors, because they are damn good! I always wanted to like them because Durant has been so complimentary of K, but I just couldn't like them when they had Barnes and JMM (even on their bench).

I don't follow the NBA at all until the playoffs start, and I've never really had a team. I root for teams with Dukies and against teams with Cheat players. It's as good of a reason as any other when you don't have a team.

Go Warriors! Sweep Danny Green.

[Troublemaker]

I'm so glad the Dubs signed Quinn. It's nice to have a good reason to root for the Warriors, because they are damn good! I always wanted to like them because Durant has been so complimentary of K, but I just couldn't like them when they had Barnes and JMM (even on their bench).

I don't follow the NBA at all until the playoffs start, and I've never really had a team. I root for teams with Dukies and against teams with Cheat players. It's as good of a reason as any other when you don't have a team.

Go Warriors! Sweep Danny Green.

Well, there you go! I've found that almost any NBA playoff series can be entertaining to watch if you can find an angle to root for one team or the other. And, like you, I've found Dukies vs Heels to be as good as any.

[richardjackson199]

Well, there you go! I've found that almost any NBA playoff series can be entertaining to watch if you can find an angle to root for one team or the other. And, like you, I've found Dukies vs Heels to be as good as any.

And it's all in good fun. I'm sure most of these Cheat players are good guys and I have nothing against them. But Elvis14 said it best, I'm rooting for even every wastebasket trash they throw to miss! Loved that line but couldn't spork.

And thanks Trouble for the very helpful NBA Playoffs guide of who I'm going to root for! You were spot on.

[sagegrouse]

How is "doting" the right word in this discussion? I think I understand what you're debating - but did the meaning of doting evolve (away from implying affection) over the last few decades?

Not just a darn minute. It was my post, and I meant, somewhat jocularly, "doting on" as in "showing love to."

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'Martha:"...it's less... 'abstruse.'" George: "Abstract." Martha: "ABSTRUSE! In the sense of 'recondite.' Don't tell me words."'

[devildeac]

And it's all in good fun. I'm sure most of these Cheat players are good guys and I have nothing against them. But Elvis14 said it best, I'm rooting for even every wastebasket trash they throw to miss! Loved that line but couldn't spork.

And thanks Trouble for the very helpful NBA Playoffs guide of who I'm going to root for! You were spot on.

Covered the spread, err, sporks for you ;).

[Furniture]

https://mobile.twitter.com/NBCSKings/status/984248603685236736/video/1

[CDu]

Good gosh the 76ers are fun to watch, even without Embiid!

[dukelifer]

Good gosh the 76ers are fun to watch, even without Embiid!

JJ on fire. Their Euro bench can shoot the ball and Simmons can pass the ball.

[westwall]

Good gosh the 76ers are fun to watch, even without Embiid!


And fun night for JJ, particularly, as high point man for the 76ers.

[Furniture]

Even though Miami lost I loved Winslow’s toughness and leadership.

[cspan37421]

And fun night for JJ, particularly, as high point man for the 76ers.

you'd never know it, if you only saw ESPN's game recap.
anti-Duke bias? Maybe. More likely, Simmons sells.
(not mutually exclusive)

[Furniture]

https://mobile.twitter.com/NBA/status/985267164285472773/video/1

[Troublemaker]

you'd never know it, if you only saw ESPN's game recap.
anti-Duke bias? Maybe. More likely, Simmons sells.
(not mutually exclusive)

ESPN had a horrendous night covering JJ. A minute into the game, JJ fell awkwardly and had to go to the locker room, and this was completely unremarked upon by ESPN's commentators. Philly subbed in another white guy (Marco Belinelli), and it was as if ESPN was fooled or something.


Jessica Camerato‏Verified account @JCameratoNBCS (https://twitter.com/JCameratoNBCS) 7h7 hours ago (https://twitter.com/JCameratoNBCS/status/985374567035219968)
Redick on why he had to leave the game: “It was just a really scary moment. I lost vision in my left eye and I don’t know what happened. I went back in the locker room and I just had to wait really until it kind of came back. It’s not a concussion. I don’t know what happened."

[CDu]

And fun night for JJ, particularly, as high point man for the 76ers.

He is such a great pairing with Simmons and Saric. They ran all kinds of fun stuff with those guys. I hope he sticks around there. It is a great fit for him.

As much as it galls me as a Bulls fan to wish good things for LeBron, I really do hope he goes there. The kind of fun things they could run with him and Simmons as passers is amazing to think about.

That said, they are pretty darn fun as is, so even if LeBron doesn’t come, the future is really bright there.

[rsvman]

ESPN had a horrendous night covering JJ. A minute into the game, JJ fell awkwardly and had to go to the locker room, and this was completely unremarked upon by ESPN's commentators. Philly subbed in another white guy (Marco Belinelli), and it was as if ESPN was fooled or something.


Jessica Camerato‏Verified account @JCameratoNBCS (https://twitter.com/JCameratoNBCS) 7h7 hours ago (https://twitter.com/JCameratoNBCS/status/985374567035219968)
Redick on why he had to leave the game: “It was just a really scary moment. I lost vision in my left eye and I don’t know what happened. I went back in the locker room and I just had to wait really until it kind of came back. It’s not a concussion. I don’t know what happened."

Amaurosis fugax is the medical term for
transient monocular blindness. That's kind of scary. Its associated with transient ischemic attacks, although there are other, more benign causes.
Without more information, I can't speculate as to what happened. Sometimes migraine equivalents can cause this, although I suspect it is usually bilateral.
Not an eye doctor and not a neurologist, so take it with a grain of salt.

[DukeTrinity11]

Jayson Tatum is so good...he's basically dispelled every con that was in his scouting report out of Duke.

Bad Defender? Nope.
Iso Mid Range Only? Nope.
Not athletic? Nope.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Jayson Tatum is so good...he's basically dispelled every con that was in his scouting report out of Duke.

Bad Defender? Nope.
Iso Mid Range Only? Nope.
Not athletic? Nope.

Tatum fighting like a beast in overtime to try and win this game. Pretty damn entertaining.

[ncexnyc]

I watched some of the Raptor's game yesterday and some of the Cleveland game today, but it's really hard. Is there a whistle that doesn't get questioned by the players?

It's like watching giant kids who throw a tantrum every time the refs make a call. Maybe I feel this way because I don't have a horse in this race, but I think I'll pass on watching. Maybe, I'll change my tune once the finals roll around, but unless there is a compelling story line I doubt it.

[kshepinthehouse]

Go Pacers! Just handed Lebron his first ever round 1 loss!

[darthur]

Well to each their own, but I love the NBA playoffs even more than the NCAA touney!

As someone who lives in the Bay Area and grew up in Toronto, it's been a great week so far.

- Golden State couldn't have asked for better matchups. Assuming no return of Kawhi, San Antonio is the worst WC playoff team IMO, and I'm thrilled to have Utah on the other side of the bracket. GS looked awful after the all-star break and that was only partly due to the injuries. I wasn't sure if they would be able to seamlessly do the switch-flipping thing, but their defense was a thing of beauty vs SA. It's been quite a while since I've been able to say that.

- Toronto got its first #1 seed ever, and broke its waaaay-too long streak of losing game-1s. DeRozan and Lowry again seem to be playing below their regular season form, and I still see Cleveland+Philadelphia as much more likely eastern conference champions, buuut go Toronto! It sucks that Toronto got matched up with Cleveland in R2, but Cleveland looked shockingly bad today.

- So far, I see this whole season as a giant repudiation of Westbrook and/or Donovan. Mr. I-got-no-support has Oladipo leave and become an absolute star, and this year his team hardly improved despite getting PG+Melo. Will be interesting to see how things go in the playoffs.

- Redick is my favorite Duke alum and the 76ers are fun to watch. They also have an easy path to the ECF IMO. But after the rampant tanking this year, I feel a little guilty cheering for them. :)

- The Boston/Milwaukee ending was incredible.

[CDu]

Go Pacers! Just handed Lebron his first ever round 1 loss!

First ever round 1, game 1 loss. He has lost a first round game before. Just not a playoff opener.

[kshepinthehouse]

First ever round 1, game 1 loss. He has lost a first round game before. Just not a playoff opener.

First since 2012. You’re right.

[LasVegas]

Go Pacers! Just handed Lebron his first ever round 1 loss!

Lebron with a nice game too. Could of shot a bit better but 24/10/12 with 3 TOs is great. If he takes this team to the finals, what an accomplishment that will be. Almost like the 07 finals.

[darthur]

Lebron with a nice game too. Could of shot a bit better but 24/10/12 with 3 TOs is great. If he takes this team to the finals, what an accomplishment that will be. Almost like the 07 finals.

I don't agree with this...

This squad seems far more talented than the 07 team and more than the post-KLove-injury 15 team too. And that 15 team *dominated* the eastern conference. Kevin Love is an absolute stud, Larry Jr is pretty darn good, they still have '15 starters JR Smith and Tristan Thompson, and at least a couple folks who played major roles on other top-10 teams in the last couple years. And oh yeah that LeBron guy too.

The Cavs were the Vegas favorites to win the East as the playoffs began, and have yet to be even slightly challenged by an eastern conference foe since LBJ returned. Toronto, as much I want them to win, has underplayed their seed every year in the playoffs and Boston is on life support. Phillie looks legit but they're also sooo young -- it's not exactly a murderer's row of contenders out there. The Cavs aren't underdogs at all.

[Furniture]

I read today that Amiles contract with the Timberwolves has been converted to a standard NBA contract. Anyone understand what that means for his current salary and the future?

[LasVegas]

I don't agree with this...

This squad seems far more talented than the 07 team and more than the post-KLove-injury 15 team too. And that 15 team *dominated* the eastern conference. Kevin Love is an absolute stud, Larry Jr is pretty darn good, they still have '15 starters JR Smith and Tristan Thompson, and at least a couple folks who played major roles on other top-10 teams in the last couple years. And oh yeah that LeBron guy too.

The Cavs were the Vegas favorites to win the East as the playoffs began, and have yet to be even slightly challenged by an eastern conference foe since LBJ returned. Toronto, as much I want them to win, has underplayed their seed every year in the playoffs and Boston is on life support. Phillie looks legit but they're also sooo young -- it's not exactly a murderer's row of contenders out there. The Cavs aren't underdogs at all.

Not sure what you are disagreeing with. I did say almost. As in they aren’t as bad as the 07 squad. But this would be Lebron’s 2nd worst finals team, IMO. So yeah, I think it would be a heck of an accomplishment considering the Cavs troubles this year. They are the favorites because A) they have Lebron, B) the east isn’t great and C) they have Lebron.

[JasonEvans]

I read today that Amiles contract with the Timberwolves has been converted to a standard NBA contract. Anyone understand what that means for his current salary and the future?

It means he is eligible for the playoffs and will get some kind of playoff bonus. If they win the title, the bonus would be more than $200k. He will also get paid for a couple days of the end of the regular season, likely somewhere in the range of $13-15k. I believe his contract contains nothing guaranteed about next season.

[darthur]

Not sure what you are disagreeing with. I did say almost. As in they aren’t as bad as the 07 squad. But this would be Lebron’s 2nd worst finals team, IMO. So yeah, I think it would be a heck of an accomplishment considering the Cavs troubles this year. They are the favorites because A) they have Lebron, B) the east isn’t great and C) they have Lebron.

I disagree that this team is anywhere close to the `07 team. And while it is always a big accomplishment to make the NBA finals, I don't think doing so this year would rank particularly highly in LBJ's rather impressive list of achievements. If anything, I'd see it as a down year for him if they *don't* make the finals. Life is hard if you're arguably the GOAT. :)

Rockets/Wolves was entertaining and surprisingly close despite a terrific game from Harden+Capela and a bad game from KAT. Pretty weird/funny play near the end: https://streamable.com/d7o9j I'm still guessing the Rockets roll in the series though. Not sure what to think after Utah/OKC game 1. OKC won reasonably decisively but only because of a stellar shooting night from PG.

[kshepinthehouse]

Not sure what you are disagreeing with. I did say almost. As in they aren’t as bad as the 07 squad. But this would be Lebron’s 2nd worst finals team, IMO. So yeah, I think it would be a heck of an accomplishment considering the Cavs troubles this year. They are the favorites because A) they have Lebron, B) the east isn’t great and C) they have Lebron.

This is laughable and please don’t start the “let’s feel sorry for Lebron because it’s him and four other nobodies” sympathy fest. While it’s true Lebron has taken four nobodies to the finals, it’s not true this year.

First of all, let’s not overreact to a round 1 loss. The Pacers are one of the hotter teams in the NBA anyway, so this wasn’t going to be a cakewalk series.

Second of all, Lebron cries every year that he needs more help, even when he is surrounded by all stars. Jordan didn’t have close to some of the supporting casts that Lebron has had.

Thirdly, the new Cavs GM rescued them at the trading deadline by trading some of their older, washed up players for a surprising haul of better defensive players and seeming players that fit better in their system. If the Cavs don’t win this year I’ll hardly feel sad for Lebron. If the Cavs do make it to the Finals this year I won’t be surprised nor will I list it as one of his major accomplishments.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Listening to the discussion here of where "LeBron dragging this team to the finals" would land on his legacy listof accomplishments, you might think they won yesterday.

I suspect this discussion will be moot sooner rather than later.

[luburch]

This is laughable and please don’t start the “let’s feel sorry for Lebron because it’s him and four other nobodies” sympathy fest. While it’s true Lebron has taken four nobodies to the finals, it’s not true this year.

First of all, let’s not overreact to a round 1 loss. The Pacers are one of the hotter teams in the NBA anyway, so this wasn’t going to be a cakewalk series.

Second of all, Lebron cries every year that he needs more help, even when he is surrounded by all stars. Jordan didn’t have close to some of the supporting casts that Lebron has had.

Thirdly, the new Cavs GM rescued them at the trading deadline by trading some of their older, washed up players for a surprising haul of better defensive players and seeming players that fit better in their system. If the Cavs don’t win this year I’ll hardly feel sad for Lebron. If the Cavs do make it to the Finals this year I won’t be surprised nor will I list it as one of his major accomplishments.

Ahhh yes, Jordan didn't have any help making the finals. He actually played 1v5 every season. And LeBron wouldn't have been able to survive playing in the 80s or 90s, because the league was so tough back then.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Ahhh yes, Jordan didn't have any help making the finals. He actually played 1v5 every season. And LeBron wouldn't have been able to survive playing in the 80s or 90s, because the league was so tough back then.

It is interesting. Consensus is the league was tougher (videos of common fouls and on court brawls seems to confirm this opinion) but players today are so much stronger and more physically imposing.

[JNort]

This is laughable and please don’t start the “let’s feel sorry for Lebron because it’s him and four other nobodies” sympathy fest. While it’s true Lebron has taken four nobodies to the finals, it’s not true this year.

First of all, let’s not overreact to a round 1 loss. The Pacers are one of the hotter teams in the NBA anyway, so this wasn’t going to be a cakewalk series.

Second of all, Lebron cries every year that he needs more help, even when he is surrounded by all stars. Jordan didn’t have close to some of the supporting casts that Lebron has had.

Thirdly, the new Cavs GM rescued them at the trading deadline by trading some of their older, washed up players for a surprising haul of better defensive players and seeming players that fit better in their system. If the Cavs don’t win this year I’ll hardly feel sad for Lebron. If the Cavs do make it to the Finals this year I won’t be surprised nor will I list it as one of his major accomplishments.

This has to be a joke...

[LasVegas]

This is laughable and please don’t start the “let’s feel sorry for Lebron because it’s him and four other nobodies” sympathy fest. While it’s true Lebron has taken four nobodies to the finals, it’s not true this year.

First of all, let’s not overreact to a round 1 loss. The Pacers are one of the hotter teams in the NBA anyway, so this wasn’t going to be a cakewalk series.

Second of all, Lebron cries every year that he needs more help, even when he is surrounded by all stars. Jordan didn’t have close to some of the supporting casts that Lebron has had.

Thirdly, the new Cavs GM rescued them at the trading deadline by trading some of their older, washed up players for a surprising haul of better defensive players and seeming players that fit better in their system. If the Cavs don’t win this year I’ll hardly feel sad for Lebron. If the Cavs do make it to the Finals this year I won’t be surprised nor will I list it as one of his major accomplishments.

Wow. You knocked that straw man out of the park!!! Good luck arguing with yourself. I hope you win!

[kshepinthehouse]

This has to be a joke...

Jordan didn’t play in the super team era. He didn’t leave as a free agent to play with a Dwayne Wade and a Chris Bosh. He played for one team his whole career and won, mainly because of his talents, not because of free agency decisions.

I agree that Lebron in the past has dragged a bunch of nobodies to the finals before in his first stint with the cavs. Ever since then he has had a lot of talent and a lot of talented role players helping him.

[Truth&Justise]

Jordan didn’t play in the super team era. He didn’t leave as a free agent to play with a Dwayne Wade and a Chris Bosh. He played for one team his whole career and won, mainly because of his talents, not because of free agency decisions.

I agree that Lebron in the past has dragged a bunch of nobodies to the finals before in his first stint with the cavs. Ever since then he has had a lot of talent and a lot of talented role players helping him.

Excuse me, are you saying Tyronn Lue-Rip Hamilton-Kwame Brown-Brendan Haywood wasn't the foundation for a superteam? What if I add in a 33-year old Christian Laettner?

[Neals384]

Why this endless doting on UNC and its former players in the NBA? Most of them (but not all) are good guys once they change unis, and many are friends with their Duke contemporaries.

Add me to the list of folks happy to see the cheats list...and especially the cheats not listed,
like the falcon, and Hans-travel-to-china.

[kshepinthehouse]

Excuse me, are you saying Tyronn Lue-Rip Hamilton-Kwame Brown-Brendan Haywood wasn't the foundation for a superteam? What if I add in a 33-year old Christian Laettner?

Oops. How could I forget the Wizards haha

[JasonEvans]

Comparing greats across different eras is extremely difficult. The game changes and the players change.

That said, pretending that Jordan had to drag those teams to titles is a little bit silly. He played alongside a HOFer in Scottie Pippen. Toni Kukoc was 6th man of the year. Dennis Rodman was Draymond Green before Draymond was Draymond, a freak on the boards and the best defender in the league. Steve Kerr and John Paxon are two of the great shooters of their era. Most importantly, the year after Jordan retired, the Bulls still won 55 games. How can anyone say Jordan's teammates were trash when those same teammates were one of the better teams in the league without him on the team?!!?

-Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans

[MCFinARL]

Oops. How could I forget the Wizards haha

Well, to ask that question is to answer it.

--from a long-suffering DC area sports fan

[rsvman]

Comparing greats across different eras is extremely difficult. The game changes and the players change.

That said, pretending that Jordan had to drag those teams to titles is a little bit silly. He played alongside a HOFer in Scottie Pippen. Toni Kukoc was 6th man of the year. Dennis Rodman was Draymond Green before Draymond was Draymond, a freak on the boards and the best defender in the league. Steve Kerr and John Paxon are two of the great shooters of their era. Most importantly, the year after Jordan retired, the Bulls still won 55 games. How can anyone say Jordan's teammates were trash when those same teammates were one of the better teams in the league without him on the team?!!?

-Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans

This. C'mon, people.

[nmduke2001]

Comparing greats across different eras is extremely difficult. The game changes and the players change.

That said, pretending that Jordan had to drag those teams to titles is a little bit silly. He played alongside a HOFer in Scottie Pippen. Toni Kukoc was 6th man of the year. Dennis Rodman was Draymond Green before Draymond was Draymond, a freak on the boards and the best defender in the league. Steve Kerr and John Paxon are two of the great shooters of their era. Most importantly, the year after Jordan retired, the Bulls still won 55 games. How can anyone say Jordan's teammates were trash when those same teammates were one of the better teams in the league without him on the team?!!?

-Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans

Any time this conversation comes up I like to ask, "what could Jordan do that Lebron can't?"...Also, Lebron does it in Karl Malone's body.

Rodman is also a HOFer and arguably the best defender of his generation. Jordan had plenty of help. One last thing; when Jordan made his iconic game winner against the Cavs, who was guarding him? Craig Ehlo. Does anyone think that Craig Ehlo would get significant minutes in the modern NBA. I don't.

[howardlander]

This. C'mon, people.

Completely agree. You don't have to like LeBron, but let's not be ridiculous about it. When LeBron walked off the floor after losing to the Celtics before going to Miami he was the best player on the floor. But the next 5 best were on the Celtics.

Howard

[darthur]

-Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans

Assuming you replace LeBron with a league average starting SF, assuming KLove doesn't get injured, and assuming no crippling locker room drama, I would have thought mid 30s. I feel they are better than NY and comparable to Charlotte.

[kshepinthehouse]

Completely agree. You don't have to like LeBron, but let's not be ridiculous about it. When LeBron walked off the floor after losing to the Celtics before going to Miami he was the best player on the floor. But the next 5 best were on the Celtics.

Howard

Agreed, but that is the last time that's happened.

[LasVegas]

Agreed, but that is the last time that's happened.

2015 finals after game 1 (kyrie injured)?????

Lebron
Delly
Thompson
Shump
Mozgov


Steph
Draymond
Klay
Barnes
Iguodala

[luvdahops]

Any time this conversation comes up I like to ask, "what could Jordan do that Lebron can't?"...Also, Lebron does it in Karl Malone's body.

Rodman is also a HOFer and arguably the best defender of his generation. Jordan had plenty of help. One last thing; when Jordan made his iconic game winner against the Cavs, who was guarding him? Craig Ehlo. Does anyone think that Craig Ehlo would get significant minutes in the modern NBA. I don't.

Small point of contention: Rodman was a great defender over the course of his career, but well past his prime in that respect during his time with the Bulls. Shawn Kemp and Karl Malone both generally had their way with him in the 96, 97 and 98 Finals. Rodman was still an elite rebounder in those years, though some thought he padded his numbers against weaker competition. As a Bull, he averaged 15.3 boards per game in the regular season and 11.3 in the playoffs; the latter figure was still very good, of course, and very important to the Bulls' success, but no longer superhuman.

[CDu]

Any time this conversation comes up I like to ask, "what could Jordan do that Lebron can't?"...Also, Lebron does it in Karl Malone's body.

Rodman is also a HOFer and arguably the best defender of his generation. Jordan had plenty of help. One last thing; when Jordan made his iconic game winner against the Cavs, who was guarding him? Craig Ehlo. Does anyone think that Craig Ehlo would get significant minutes in the modern NBA. I don't.

Gonna have to disagree with you here, on both counts.

Rodman was still a very useful player, but he was nearing the end of the line in his years with the Bulls. Still very good, but not nearly the defender he was in his prime.

And Ehlo was a very good NBA player. A very good defender and a solid 3pt shooter. In his prime, Ehlo averaged double-digit scoring, 4 assists per game, and shot high-30s/low-40s 3pt % (in an era in which the 3 was undervalued). He'd absolutely be a regular in the league today. I mean, seriously, guys like Marco Belinelli are regulars in the league.

[howardlander]

Agreed, but that is the last time that's happened.

When did it ever happen to Jordan? I'd argue that, at least when the Bulls were winning titles, Jordan and Pippen were normally either the 2 best or 2 of the 3 best players. People forget how good Pippen was. He was much better than anyone LeBron has ever played with, with the possible exception of Dwayne Wade. Kyrie is a great player in his own right, but I can't put him at Pippen's level.

[CDu]

When did it ever happen to Jordan? I'd argue that, at least when the Bulls were winning titles, Jordan and Pippen were normally either the 2 best or 2 of the 3 best players. People forget how good Pippen was. He was much better than anyone LeBron has ever played with, with the possible exception of Dwayne Wade. Kyrie is a great player in his own right, but I can't put him at Pippen's level.

Pippen was certainly as good as any player LeBron ever played with. The argument really falls to the third spot on the floor and beyond. I'd argue that both Bosh and Love were better than the Bulls' third man (Grant in the early years, Rodman or Kukoc in the later years). And I'd argue that the role players Lebron has had were better than than the role players the Bulls had.

But, that's neither here nor there. The biggest difference I see is that the quality of Bulls' opponents was lower than the quality of LeBron's opponents, especially in the Finals. There was maybe one Finals series ever in which Jordan's Bulls weren't the better team. LeBron has had less good fortune. He's run into some teams that were simply better. I'd argue that Golden State was better all 3 times they played, and San Antonio was better in 2007. His Heat were better than Dallas and OKC, and were on par with those Spurs teams (so a split seems right).

Here's an article that discusses LeBron's playoff legacy in more detail:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/

Spoiler alert: it suggests LeBron's teams did basically about what they were supposed to do. This was as of 2016, so it omits his last two Finals appearances. Both of those were expected to be losses, but they won one, which means he had 3 wins with an expectation of 3 wins.

Jordan's Bulls did better than expected, but they were also heavy favorites in 4 of his 6 Finals appearances. And they were only underdogs once: a slight underdog to Utah. Lebron's teams were underdogs 5 of 8 times.

If Jordan's Bulls had faced the Warriors three times and the Spurs 3 times, maybe Jordan only has 2 or 3 titles instead of six.

[flyingdutchdevil]

When did it ever happen to Jordan? I'd argue that, at least when the Bulls were winning titles, Jordan and Pippen were normally either the 2 best or 2 of the 3 best players. People forget how good Pippen was. He was much better than anyone LeBron has ever played with, with the possible exception of Dwayne Wade. Kyrie is a great player in his own right, but I can't put him at Pippen's level.

You think Pippen was the second best or third best player in the league? On the Bulls, most certainly. But better than Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, Shaq, and Olajuwon? No way. Hell, Pippen never broke the top 250 PER in seasons: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

[Matches]

You think Pippen was the second best or third best player in the league? On the Bulls, most certainly. But better than Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, Shaq, and Olajuwon? No way. Hell, Pippen never broke the top 250 PER in seasons: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

For the period where the Bulls were at their peak? ('91-'98) Yeah, he definitely was in the conversation. Bird, Magic & Isiah were all out of the league/ on the downslide by then. Pippen was better than Barkley or Robinson. Malone, Shaq and Hakeem were all in the conversation with him, but Pippen absolutely was one of the best players in the NBA in his prime.

[elvis14]

So...we have Heat/Sixers at 8:00 and GSW/SAS at 10:30 tonight for the 2018 playoffs. I'm looking forward to both games. I'm looking forward to seeing Duke players play in both games. Can the Spurs even take a game from the GSW? The Sixers are hot even without Joel....how good are they really?

Jordan didn't make the playoffs this year, Doc Rivers just couldn't get it done with JJ to complement Austin.

[moonpie23]

Comparing greats across different eras is extremely difficult. The game changes and the players change.



this is true, but, when i think about a one on one match up? jordan fouls out every single time.....

[elvis14]

this is true, but, when i think about a one on one match up? jordan fouls out every single time...

With Jordan in the West and the Clippers missing the 2018 playoffs, I don't think it's going to be an issue.

[nmduke2001]

Gonna have to disagree with you here, on both counts.

Rodman was still a very useful player, but he was nearing the end of the line in his years with the Bulls. Still very good, but not nearly the defender he was in his prime.

And Ehlo was a very good NBA player. A very good defender and a solid 3pt shooter. In his prime, Ehlo averaged double-digit scoring, 4 assists per game, and shot high-30s/low-40s 3pt % (in an era in which the 3 was undervalued). He'd absolutely be a regular in the league today. I mean, seriously, guys like Marco Belinelli are regulars in the league.

I'll give you this, but do you think he'd be the guy guarding Jordan at the end of the game if they were both playing today?

[darthur]

You think Pippen was the second best or third best player in the league? On the Bulls, most certainly. But better than Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, Shaq, and Olajuwon? No way. Hell, Pippen never broke the top 250 PER in seasons: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

I think that top-250 stat says as much about PER as it does about Pippen. PER loves big men and it loves high usage. As long as you're getting more than ~0.5 points per shot, shooting more increases PER. That's crazy! For example, note that it thinks benchwarmer-who-nobody-else-wanted-to-sign Javale McGee is (easily) the third best Warrior this year. Now McGee is better than his minutes and played great against the Spurs on Saturday, but still...

[CDu]

I think that top-250 stat says as much about PER as it does about Pippen. PER loves big men and it loves high usage. As long as you're getting more than ~0.5 points per shot, shooting more increases PER. That's crazy! For example, note that it thinks benchwarmer-who-nobody-else-wanted-to-sign Javale McGee is (easily) the third best Warrior this year. Now McGee is better than his minutes and played great against the Spurs on Saturday, but still...

Yeah, PER is a pretty bad stat when it comes to things like defense (unless you are a shotblocker or steals hound, and it overrates steals). And of course, that is the thing Pippen did as well as anyone. He could defend at least 4 positions pretty much as well as anyone in the league. Dude was a beast. But PER has no way of knowing that. Nor does it understand that he was playing next to one of the highest-usage players ever, which capped his offensive rate stats.

[phaedrus]

Yeah, PER is a pretty bad stat when it comes to things like defense (unless you are a shotblocker or steals hound, and it overrates steals). And of course, that is the thing Pippen did as well as anyone. He could defend at least 4 positions pretty much as well as anyone in the league. Dude was a beast. But PER has no way of knowing that. Nor does it understand that he was playing next to one of the highest-usage players ever, which capped his offensive rate stats.

Here's total win-shares from 1991-1999:

http://bkref.com/tiny/cRIGv

Pippen is 7th, behind Malone, Robinson, Jordan, Stockton, Miller, and Barkley.

Here's VORP for the same time period:

http://bkref.com/tiny/09VVF

Pippen is 3rd behind Malone and Robinson.

Pippen was certainly a top-5 or at worst top-10 player looking at the decade as a whole.

Are we off-topic yet?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Here's total win-shares from 1991-1999:

http://bkref.com/tiny/cRIGv

Pippen is 7th, behind Malone, Robinson, Jordan, Stockton, Miller, and Barkley.

Here's VORP for the same time period:

http://bkref.com/tiny/09VVF

Pippen is 3rd behind Malone and Robinson.

Pippen was certainly a top-5 or at worst top-10 player looking at the decade as a whole.

Are we off-topic yet?

Top ten is very different than top two. I would agree top ten.

[CDu]

Top ten is very different than top two. I would agree top ten.

In the context of what is being discussed, though, it really isn't. LeBron hasn't had a clear top-10 player next to him for most of his career. Certainly not prior to coming to the Heat, and arguably not since returning to the Cavs. And arguably not while he was with the Heat either. Jordan, on the other hand, pretty clearly had a top-10 player sharing the court with him for all of his title years. So Jordan had a player as good or better than anyone LeBron has played with in the Finals.

That being said, LeBron has had arguably better players from 3-7 than Jordan had.

[Wander]

Jordan's defensive awards (one DPOY, and 9 selections to the first all-defensive team compared to Lebron's 5) are what tip the scales to Jordan for me in the Jordan vs. Lebron debate.

But yeah, I agree with Mtn.Devil that it's strange timing for this thread derailment given the loss.

[MartyClark]

Jordan's defensive awards (one DPOY, and 9 selections to the first all-defensive team compared to Lebron's 5) are what tip the scales to Jordan for me in the Jordan vs. Lebron debate.

But yeah, I agree with Mtn.Devil that it's strange timing for this thread derailment given the loss.

To further derail the thread . . . I think Pippen was the greatest #2 guy in history. He could score, bring the ball up, play defense, rebound and make his team better.

I don't think he had the mental strength, determination or stamina to be a #1 guy after Jordan left. The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. But he was outstanding, maybe the best, as the second best player on the Jordan led Bulls teams.

[kshepinthehouse]

Jordan's defensive awards (one DPOY, and 9 selections to the first all-defensive team compared to Lebron's 5) are what tip the scales to Jordan for me in the Jordan vs. Lebron debate.

But yeah, I agree with Mtn.Devil that it's strange timing for this thread derailment given the loss.

Wasn’t trying to turn this into a Jordan vs Lebron debate as I’m not a big fan of either. But I take exception when people are always throwing out the narrative this year that Lebron doesn’t have a strong supporting cast and is somehow an underdog to make it to the finals.

Love, Hill, Clarkson, Nance, Korver, Thompson, Hood aren’t exactly pushovers.

[JNort]

You think Pippen was the second best or third best player in the league? On the Bulls, most certainly. But better than Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, Shaq, and Olajuwon? No way. Hell, Pippen never broke the top 250 PER in seasons: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

I don't think you read his post right. He's saying on any given night those Bulls had 2 of the top 3 guys on the floor. Not that they had 2 of the top 3 in the league (Like the Warriors do now)

[JNort]

In the context of what is being discussed, though, it really isn't. LeBron hasn't had a clear top-10 player next to him for most of his career. Certainly not prior to coming to the Heat, and arguably not since returning to the Cavs. And arguably not while he was with the Heat either. Jordan, on the other hand, pretty clearly had a top-10 player sharing the court with him for all of his title years. So Jordan had a player as good or better than anyone LeBron has played with in the Finals.

That being said, LeBron has had arguably better players from 3-7 than Jordan had.

I don't agree with that either but it's beside my point. In basketball more than any other team sport it's important to be top heavy in talent and depth doesn't matter too much at the pro level. Those Bulls were always rocking 2 of the top 3 on the floor on any given night plus a couple of the best shooters in the league, best rebounder as well as the best coach.

Put LeBron and Kawhi Leonard together with one of the better rebounders/defenders (Draymond) on the floor together with the best role 3 point shooter (JJ) and let Pop or Stevens coach.

Bet they finish number 1 on defense and top 5 offense with the Championship at the end of the year.

[howardlander]

I don't think you read his post right. He's saying on any given night those Bulls had 2 of the top 3 guys on the floor. Not that they had 2 of the top 3 in the league (Like the Warriors do now)

Right. That was the point. Thanks.

Howard

[howardlander]

BTW, not to derail a good historical argument but is J.J. injured? I didn't see him on the floor for the sixers.

[Furniture]

Winslow is a beast on D. He also looks like a real leader on the floor.

[dukelifer]

Dwyane Wade drove to the game in his DeLorean tonight.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Dwyane Wade drove to the game in his DeLorean tonight.

They put him back in the game with 3 minutes left and about 4 seconds later he makes the game-defining play with the strip and score on Simmons.

[BD80]

... -Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans

Considering they would then have had Kyrie, I'd go with 41+ and playoffs.


Dwyane Wade drove to the game in his DeLorean tonight.

Definitely got it up to 88 mph. Scored 28 in 25 minutes. Does that mean Gabriel was back in her cheerleader uniform?

[nmduke2001]

BTW, not to derail a good historical argument but is J.J. injured? I didn't see him on the floor for the sixers.

JJ played 36 poor shooting minutes tonight.

And yes, whoever up thread said that Justise is a beast is correct. His defense on Simmons early in the game set the tone.

[LasVegas]

Wasn’t trying to turn this into a Jordan vs Lebron debate as I’m not a big fan of either. But I take exception when people are always throwing out the narrative this year that Lebron doesn’t have a strong supporting cast and is somehow an underdog to make it to the finals.

Love, Hill, Clarkson, Nance, Korver, Thompson, Hood aren’t exactly pushovers.

But no one threw out that narrative. You created a straw man witch started the whole Bron vs MJ. You directly quoted me and all I said in that quote was basically this would be Lebron’s 2nd worst finals team and would be a great accomplishment if he made it to the finals. Again.

[Dev11]

The NBA playoffs are happening. Michael Jordan retired 15 years ago. Please save this argument for July.

Go Bullets

[flyingdutchdevil]

Jabari absolutely terrible in game 2.

Celtics dominated like they should. Just like the Bruins. Just like the pats.

Hate us. Do it. You know. We’re awesome.
;)

[chris13]

Jabari absolutely terrible in game 2.

Celtics dominated like they should. Just like the Bruins. Just like the pats.

Hate us. Do it. You know. We’re awesome.
;)

8321

[LasVegas]

Jabari absolutely terrible in game 2.

Celtics dominated like they should. Just like the Bruins. Just like the pats.

Hate us. Do it. You know. We’re awesome.
;)

Well...the pats cheat soooooo leave them out.

What in the world is up with Jabari? He really finished the season strong.

[elvis14]

Jabari absolutely terrible in game 2.

Celtics dominated like they should. Just like the Bruins. Just like the pats.

Hate us. Do it. You know. We’re awesome.
;)

LOL, you guys really aren't good enough to hate, sorry.

[flyingdutchdevil]

LOL, you guys really aren't good enough to hate, sorry.

I actually don't remember writing that post. It was a rough night.

Collectively, Boston is absolutely good enough to hate. Across all 4 teams - especially this year - it's ridiculous. 2nd in the East in hockey. 2nd in the East in basketball. Best record in baseball. Super Bowl appearance. It's absolutely nuts. If you're a Boston fan, it doesn't really get better. If you're a hater, welp, you're gonna be hating a lot.

[BD80]

I actually don't remember writing that post. It was a rough night.

Collectively, Boston is absolutely good enough to hate. Across all 4 teams - especially this year - it's ridiculous. 2nd in the East in hockey. 2nd in the East in basketball. Best record in baseball. Super Bowl appearance. It's absolutely nuts. If you're a Boston fan, it doesn't really get better. If you're a hater, welp, you're gonna be hating a lot.

And how many Nor'easters? Even God hates Boston. I think its the accent. For me it's Tom Bundchen, although I like Gisele.

[CDu]

I actually don't remember writing that post. It was a rough night.

Collectively, Boston is absolutely good enough to hate. Across all 4 teams - especially this year - it's ridiculous. 2nd in the East in hockey. 2nd in the East in basketball. Best record in baseball. Super Bowl appearance. It's absolutely nuts. If you're a Boston fan, it doesn't really get better. If you're a hater, welp, you're gonna be hating a lot.

Posts like this kind of border on d-baggery. I know that isn't your intent. You should certainly enjoy the nice run of success while it lasts. But it is probably best to keep the enjoyment to yourself: nobody likes a braggart.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Posts like this kind of border on d-baggery. I know that isn't your intent. You should certainly enjoy the nice run of success while it lasts. But it is probably best to keep the enjoyment to yourself: nobody likes a braggart.

Given the high level of anti-Boston on this thread (and yes, I certainly don't help), I'm happy to stand up for this city. D-baggery or not.

[CDu]

Given the high level of anti-Boston on this thread (and yes, I certainly don't help), I'm happy to stand up for this city. D-baggery or not.

Yeah, I don't think you get to use the "I'm just defending my city" argument when it was your bragging post (whether you remember posting it or not) that brought out any of the anti-Boston in this thread. Just saying.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, I don't think you get to use the "I'm just defending my city" argument when it was your bragging post (whether you remember posting it or not) that brought out any of the anti-Boston in this thread. Just saying.

In this case, that's fair. But let's not act as if anti-Boston posts don't pop up all the time.

[JNort]

I for one don't understand the Boston hate. Keep braggin, there isn't anything wrong with it.

[CDu]

In this case, that's fair. But let's not act as if anti-Boston posts don't pop up all the time.

Sure. And when they do, it's absolutely fair to retort. Just try not to instigate it - especially in the context of a home win over a 7 seed in the first round of the playoffs. That's kind of trolling.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I for one don't understand the Boston hate. Keep braggin, there isn't anything wrong with it.

Same reason a ton of folks hate Duke basketball. Or Notre Dame football (historically). Or the Yankees (historically). Or the Cowboys (historically). Yeah, deflate-gate/filming competitor practices/Tom Brady's beautiful face don't help, but Boston's success is reason #1. Outside of New York, no one hated Boston in the 1990s.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Sure. And when they do, it's absolutely fair to retort. Just try not to instigate it - especially in the context of a home win over a 7 seed in the first round of the playoffs. That's kind of trolling.

And in my state last night, that was probably my intention.

[CDu]

Same reason a ton of folks hate Duke basketball. Or Notre Dame football (historically). Or the Yankees (historically). Or the Cowboys (historically). Yeah, deflate-gate/filming competitor practices/Tom Brady's beautiful face don't help, but Boston's success is reason #1. Outside of New York, no one hated Boston in the 1990s.

Well, to be fair, it's really just the Patriots and the attitude. The Celtics and Bruins have yet to actually accomplish much recently (no titles in the last 6 years for the Bruins, no titles in the last 9 years for the Celtics), though both are good teams with the potential to be great again. The Red Sox have been good, but not really notably better than the rest: only one World Series championship in the last 10 years. It's really just the Patriots' sustained success (along with the Spygate/Deflategate stuff and Bellichick generally being a curmudgeon who is seemingly willing to blur the lines with the rules) that drives most of it. That and - perhaps fueled by an inferiority complex caused by the Yankees/Red Sox rivalry for decades and the Pats' awful history pre-Bellichick - Boston sports fans' need back in the 2000s to constantly remind everyone how awesome their sports teams were.

Folks nationally don't hate the Celtics (aside from long-time Lakers fans) or Bruins. They do hate the Red Sox, largely because they've joined the Yankees as "evil empire" big spenders, though without the extreme success recently. But they REALLY hate the Patriots.

[BD80]

Same reason a ton of folks hate Duke basketball. Or Notre Dame football (historically). Or the Yankees (historically). Or the Cowboys (historically). Yeah, deflate-gate/filming competitor practices/Tom Brady's beautiful face don't help, but Boston's success is reason #1. Outside of New York, no one hated Boston in the 1990s.

Yeah ... no. Nice try. It is the attitude that any of the Boston franchises are comparable to those historic franchises that engenders such disdain.


And the accent.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Well, to be fair, it's really just the Patriots and the attitude. The Celtics and Bruins have yet to actually accomplish much recently (no titles in the last 6 years for the Bruins, no titles in the last 9 years for the Celtics), though both are good teams with the potential to be great again. The Red Sox have been good, but not really notably better than the rest: only one World Series championship in the last 10 years. It's really just the Patriots' sustained success (along with the Spygate/Deflategate stuff and Bellichick generally being a curmudgeon who is seemingly willing to blur the lines with the rules) that drives most of it. That and - perhaps fueled by an inferiority complex caused by the Yankees/Red Sox rivalry for decades and the Pats' awful history pre-Bellichick - Boston sports fans' need back in the 2000s to constantly remind everyone how awesome their sports teams were.

Folks nationally don't hate the Celtics (aside from long-time Lakers fans) or Bruins. They do hate the Red Sox, largely because they've joined the Yankees as "evil empire" big spenders, though without the extreme success recently. But they REALLY hate the Patriots.

It most certainly isn't just the Pats. That may be just you. Or it could be that the hate for the Pats masks the hate for the other teams (really just the Celtics and the Red Sox).

Not sure how to measure "hate", but here are just a few quick articles:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1323519-the-50-most-hated-teams-in-sports
https://www.thesportster.com/entertainment/top-15-most-hated-teams-in-sports/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/abahammad/top-10-most-hated-sports-teams-in-america-28e9f?utm_term=.qvbWNPVGp#.in2d4ykbg

Yeah - it isn't great journalism but it gets the point across.

[phaedrus]

It most certainly isn't just the Pats. That may be just you. Or it could be that the hate for the Pats masks the hate for the other teams (really just the Celtics and the Red Sox).

Not sure how to measure "hate", but here are just a few quick articles:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1323519-the-50-most-hated-teams-in-sports
https://www.thesportster.com/entertainment/top-15-most-hated-teams-in-sports/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/abahammad/top-10-most-hated-sports-teams-in-america-28e9f?utm_term=.qvbWNPVGp#.in2d4ykbg

Yeah - it isn't great journalism but it gets the point across.

It's interesting that the Boston franchises (other than the Patriots) are enmeshed in some of the best, if not the best, historic rivalries in their respective sports: Lakers-Celtics, Red Sox-Yankees, Bruins-Habs. That would seem to increase fan polarization - even for fans not that invested in the rivalries.

[CDu]

It most certainly isn't just the Pats. That may be just you. Or it could be that the hate for the Pats masks the hate for the other teams (really just the Celtics and the Red Sox).

Not sure how to measure "hate", but here are just a few quick articles:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1323519-the-50-most-hated-teams-in-sports
https://www.thesportster.com/entertainment/top-15-most-hated-teams-in-sports/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/abahammad/top-10-most-hated-sports-teams-in-america-28e9f?utm_term=.qvbWNPVGp#.in2d4ykbg

Yeah - it isn't great journalism but it gets the point across.

Interesting. I think that more likely the hate for the Pats and to a lesser degree the Red Sox combined with the Pats/Red Sox success-induced chirping from Boston fans must be carrying over to a general disdain for Boston teams then. Because the Celtics and Bruins certainly haven’t been good enough for their success to elicit hate.

The Red Sox in the 2000s and Pats of the 00s and 10s elicited hate based on success. But folks don’t hate the Giants or Blackhawks or Penguins, and all three of those teams have been more successful than the Red Sox or Bruins this decade. And the Celtics haven’t been even a good team but for the past two years. So I don’t think success is why anyone hates the Bruins or Celtics, and it certainly is not recent success driving Sox hate.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Interesting. I think that more likely the hate for the Pats and to a lesser degree the Red Sox combined with the Pats/Red Sox success-induced chirping from Boston fans must be carrying over to a general disdain for Boston teams then. Because the Celtics and Bruins certainly haven’t been good enough for their success to elicit hate.

The Red Sox in the 2000s and Pats of the 00s and 10s elicited hate based on success. But folks don’t hate the Giants or Blackhawks or Penguins, and all three of those teams have been more successful than the Red Sox or Bruins this decade. And the Celtics haven’t been even a good team but for the past two years. So I don’t think success is why anyone hates the Bruins or Celtics, and it certainly is not recent success driving Sox hate.

Historic success may have a lot to do with it. After all, plenty of folks still hate the Cowboys with an undying passion and they haven't been relevant since the 1990s. And the Celts and Bruins do have plenty of historic success.

I agree that success doesn't always lead to hate, but the two are more often than not correlated.

Anywho, moving on.

What the hell happened with Jabari? That dude has lost a lot of money in the last two games.

[sagegrouse]

Historic success may have a lot to do with it. After all, plenty of folks still hate the Cowboys with an undying passion and they haven't been relevant since the 1990s. And the Celts and Bruins do have plenty of historic success.

I agree that success doesn't always lead to hate, but the two are more often than not correlated.

Anywho, moving on.

What the hell happened with Jabari? That dude has lost a lot of money in the last two games.

You know, FDD, I don't know a soul who hates all things Boston or all teams from Boston. There are lots of New Englanders, I believe, who find Bostonians to be a bit, well, "in-your-face," but most of these root for the Boston-based sports teams as a matter of both exposure and regional pride. Yet across the country there are loads of pro football fans who hate the Patriots -- some because the Pats seem to win all the time and some because of the history of cheating and the less than attractive persona of Bill Belichick.

[phaedrus]

Historic success may have a lot to do with it. After all, plenty of folks still hate the Cowboys with an undying passion and they haven't been relevant since the 1990s. And the Celts and Bruins do have plenty of historic success.

I agree that success doesn't always lead to hate, but the two are more often than not correlated.

Anywho, moving on.

What the hell happened with Jabari? That dude has lost a lot of money in the last two games.

I haven't watched the games, but noticed he only played 15 minutes and 10 minutes in the two games. By contrast, he played 32 minutes per game in April while the team was fighting for playoff position.

So was he unproductive because he didn't get minutes, or did he not get minutes because he was unproductive?

[JasonEvans]

I haven't watched the games, but noticed he only played 15 minutes and 10 minutes in the two games. By contrast, he played 32 minutes per game in April while the team was fighting for playoff position.

So was he unproductive because he didn't get minutes, or did he not get minutes because he was unproductive?

Chicken or egg... though I suspect that if he was playing well, the team would find a way to get him on the floor. Jabari has always been a mediocre (at best) defender. When he is not scoring well, it is easy to find a spot for him on the bench.

The game 2 performance is the really puzzling one. Only 10 minutes and just 2 shots in those 10 minutes. This from a guy who averaged a FGA every 2 minutes last year and one every 2.3 minutes this season. Put another way, in 10 minutes of time, you would expect him to have twice as many shots. And it ain't like his FGAs are down because he is getting fouled and shooting FTs. He's yet to get to the line a single time in this postseason (he's never been great at getting fouled, which is one reason his efficiency numbers are not better).

I agree with FDD that Jabari is costing himself money. Last October, when he was still rehabbing from his torn ACL, the Bucks reportedly offered him (http://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/02/13/report-bucks-offered-jabari-parker-contract-extension-worth-18-million-annually/) $54 mil in a 3 year deal ($18 mil per season). Jabari held out because he wanted a max extension that would have been 5 years, $146 million. Essentially, Jabari bet on himself... and his bet went bust.

I think he will struggle to get much more than maybe a $7-9 mil per season this summer. Teams will want to sign him to a 3 or 4 year deal but I am betting he again bets on himself and only signs a 1 or maybe 2 year contract, hoping he will play better and get his big extension at that point.

-Jason "reminds me a bit of Nerlens Noel, who turned down a 4 year, $70 mil deal last offseason and only took a 1 year $4 mil deal so he could be a free agent this summer... and then only played in 30 games while having his worst season yet. He'll be lucky to get $4 mil from anyone in the off-season" Evans

[CDu]

A ho-hum 44 points (on just 24 shots!), 12 rebounds, 5 assists as Cleveland keeps themselves alive.

[dudog84]

After game 1 I really thought the Cavs would come back and win this one by 20. They may be in trouble in this series.

[Furniture]

I can’t believe that reporter asked Lebron about Erin Popovich in the after game interview. He obviously didn’t know and he seemed really upset but he handled it really well. I am flabbergasted and disgusted.

[LasVegas]

After game 1 I really thought the Cavs would come back and win this one by 20. They may be in trouble in this series.

As a Cavs fan after game one, I was just hoping for a win.

[jimsumner]

I confess I thought Donovan Mitchell would be a nice NBA player. But I never saw this coming. A star on the road to becoming a super-star, perhaps sooner rather than later.

[darthur]

I can’t believe that reporter asked Lebron about Erin Popovich in the after game interview. He obviously didn’t know and he seemed really upset but he handled it really well. I am flabbergasted and disgusted.

Agree.

I'm reminded of the Louisville game where Kevin Ware got injured. In sports, it's easy to forget that every time your team wins, it comes at someone else's expense. When your team is playing against someone going through a tragedy like this, you just feel guilty and bad. At least I do. It's trite, but there are more important things in life than winning basketball games.

Best wishes to Pops, his family, and the whole Spurs team. They were the first team I hated in the NBA -- they were so damn good and they kept beating the teams I liked. But they represent everything that's good and right about sports.

[Troublemaker]

Game's not quite over yet but Houston leads 100 to 79 over Minnesota with 90 seconds remaining. Houston has taken 51 threes (making 16), and Minnesota has only taken 17 threes (making 5). I'm not sure the TWolves can win a game unless they narrow that margin.

[duke4ever19]

Game's not quite over yet but Houston leads 100 to 79 over Minnesota with 90 seconds remaining. Houston has taken 51 threes (making 16), and Minnesota has only taken 17 threes (making 5). I'm not sure the TWolves can win a game unless they narrow that margin.

Towns has been M.I.A. and his shot selection is horrific. It was fun listening to Charles Barkley be audibly disgusted watching Towns "highlights" at the half.

[Reilly]

I can’t believe that reporter asked Lebron about Erin Popovich in the after game interview. He obviously didn’t know...

LBJ said he did know/was informed ahead of time: http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/allie-laforce-tnt-interview-lebron-james-erin-popovich-death-gregg-popovich-spurs-coach-nba-playoffs/14n96iv9n9xo1oo92wppmbsse

[JNort]

Same reason a ton of folks hate Duke basketball. Or Notre Dame football (historically). Or the Yankees (historically). Or the Cowboys (historically). Yeah, deflate-gate/filming competitor practices/Tom Brady's beautiful face don't help, but Boston's success is reason #1. Outside of New York, no one hated Boston in the 1990s.

Yeah I don't get it... never understood hating a franchise for winning. I don't like certain teams based on individuals and that's basically it. For example I hated the Celtics while KG, PP, and Ray Allen were on the team. As soon as they left I don't mind them anymore.

[gep]

Yeah I don't get it... never understood hating a franchise for winning. I don't like certain teams based on individuals and that's basically it. For example I hated the Celtics while KG, PP, and Ray Allen were on the team. As soon as they left I don't mind them anymore.

Just curious... how did you feel about the Celtics teams with Parrish, Bird, and McHale?

[flyingdutchdevil]

A ho-hum 44 points (on just 24 shots!), 12 rebounds, 5 assists as Cleveland keeps themselves alive.

46 points, actually.

Man, Lebron's supporting staff is just weak right now. There are some talented teammates: KLove, George Hill, JR, Hood... but everyone is scared to shoot the ball. Kevin Love is the only non-Lebron player last night to shoot more than 8 times. And the bench shot a total of 17 FGs; really, really weak.

[CDu]

46 points, actually.

Man, Lebron's supporting staff is just weak right now. There are some talented teammates: KLove, George Hill, JR, Hood... but everyone is scared to shoot the ball. Kevin Love is the only non-Lebron player last night to shoot more than 8 times. And the bench shot a total of 17 FGs; really, really weak.

Yeah, I posted that with about 20 seconds left once the game was decided. He added 2 free throws after that.

Hill and Hood have been disappointing so far. Korver was great, but he is just a catch and shoot guy at this point.

[ice-9]

46 points, actually.

Man, Lebron's supporting staff is just weak right now. There are some talented teammates: KLove, George Hill, JR, Hood... but everyone is scared to shoot the ball. Kevin Love is the only non-Lebron player last night to shoot more than 8 times. And the bench shot a total of 17 FGs; really, really weak.

Maybe...LeBron misses Kyrie?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Maybe...LeBron misses Kyrie?

Lebron definitely misses Kyrie.

The thing about Lebron is he needs teammates who will shoot and not defer. If you're open and you have the ball, you shoot. The other issue is Lebron is a very intimidating and teammates will likely be hesitant to shoot in high volume.

So the perfect teammates to Lebron are a) trigger happy players who b) aren't intimidated by Lebron and c) see him as the alpha dog.

That's why Wade and Kyrie were perfect teammates for Lebron. KLove matches a) and c) but he seems intimidating by Lebron. Same with Hill and Hood. JR, on the other hand, fits a) and b) well but probably not as much on the c).

[Troublemaker]

Maybe...LeBron misses Kyrie?

For sure. I mean, it's pretty simple. Kyrie left, and Cleveland didn't replace him with any player that approaches how good Kyrie is. (They were [way too optimistically] hoping that replacement would be Isaiah Thomas). So this Cleveland team is now a clear downgrade from any prior version that had Kyrie.

[JNort]

Just curious... how did you feel about the Celtics teams with Parrish, Bird, and McHale?

Indifferent mostly

[wilson]

I can’t believe that reporter asked Lebron about Erin Popovich in the after game interview. He obviously didn’t know and he seemed really upset but he handled it really well. I am flabbergasted and disgusted.FWIW, LeBron says that the reporter, Allie LaForce, prefaced the question by asking off-camera if it was ok for her to bring it up, and that he wasn't caught by surprise (https://deadspin.com/lebron-james-says-he-wasnt-blindsided-by-tnt-reporter-a-1825382794).

[JetpackJesus]

Since the other NBA threads are locked, I think this is probably the best place to share this ESPN story (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23216496/nba-how-philadelphia-76ers-formed-culture-built-win) talking about one of the ways the 76ers were going about building a winning culture before anyone actually trusted The Process. To sum up, once a month or so the team calls on a player to prepare a presentation for the entire organization about whatever topic interests them. The ESPN piece is basically a collection of vignettes looking at a handful of the player presentations. The author peppers in some commentary connecting the whole thing to the team's success this year.

It turns out that each segments is pretty interesting (also, the Sixers' roster is really diverse), but the main reason I kept reading is because I figured one of the sections would have to be about JJ's presentation because he's just such an interesting dude. Sure enough, JJ comes up at the end. I would've bet on his presentation being about watches, but I was so very, very wrong. As a sneak peak, here's the apparent title of JJ's presentation:


Are we living in base reality? Questions and moralities surrounding the Simulation Theory and the Quantum Mechanical Laws that explain our very existence.

Not only is it interesting reading about how an NBA team functions behind the scenes, the piece is a pretty good read just from a human interest perspective. Check it out if you have time.

[DukieInKansas]

I'll be watching the Spurs/Warriors game very closely this evening. I've asked Brother Bob to try to get a Quinn Cook jersey for me and I want to know if he is successful. He only promised to heckle him. My 2nd request, and much more reasonable one, is for Brother Bob to thank Quinn for lots of wonderful memories from his sister before he heckles him.

Will hope for the first but expect to see the second one happen.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'll be watching the Spurs/Warriors game very closely this evening. I've asked Brother Bob to try to get a Quinn Cook jersey for me and I want to know if he is successful. He only promised to heckle him. My 2nd request, and much more reasonable one, is for Brother Bob to thank Quinn for lots of wonderful memories from his sister before he heckles him.

Will hope for the first but expect to see the second one happen.

This confuses me. I am curious if I am missing something?

[DukieInKansas]

This confuses me. I am curious if I am missing something?

Oldest brother has tix that are basically at the end of the visitors bench at the Spurs home games. I figured it was worth a shot asking him to try to get a Cook jersey for me. (He eventually got a Durant jersey for our niece so I'm taking my chance.) He only promised to heckle Quinn. I'm going to be watching him to see what he does.

(I like to confuse people. As they say, find something you are good at and stick with it. Confusion and wandering aimlessly are in my skill set.)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Oldest brother has tix that are basically at the end of the visitors bench at the Spurs home games. I figured it was worth a shot asking him to try to get a Cook jersey for me. (He eventually got a Durant jersey for our niece so I'm taking my chance.) He only promised to heckle Quinn. I'm going to be watching him to see what he does.

(I like to confuse people. As they say, find something you are good at and stick with it. Confusion and wandering aimlessly are in my skill set.)

Ah. So the heckling is his strong suit. The jersey is the request. Got it! Thanks for the clarification.

[JasonEvans]

Embiid has been cleared to play tonight. The Sixers say they will not limit his minutes though he is not in full game condition.

[subzero02]

Embiid has been cleared to play tonight. The Sixers say they will not limit his minutes though he is not in full game condition.

The Fargo Phantom will dominate...

[Troublemaker]

Check out the Justise Winslow show on TNT, folks.

Honestly, I almost posted this to the "I don't want to jinx" thread. He's shooting the heck out of the ball so far.

This has been my favorite series to watch so far. Both teams are so well-coached and run pretty, uptempo offense.

[DukeTrinity11]

CHIEF JUSTISE!!! 19 point 1st half for him, wow!

He made some incredible passes as well and pulled down some tough rebounds for the Heat.

Man I hope one of our future OADs has those intangibles that Winslow has, you just can't teach that.

[Furniture]

FWIW, LeBron says that the reporter, Allie LaForce, prefaced the question by asking off-camera if it was ok for her to bring it up, and that he wasn't caught by surprise (https://deadspin.com/lebron-james-says-he-wasnt-blindsided-by-tnt-reporter-a-1825382794).

Jolly good then. He sure looked very surprised to me but I guess it could have been that he was just very upset. Now I know it makes sense.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

CHIEF JUSTISE!!! 19 point 1st half for him, wow!

He made some incredible passes as well and pulled down some tough rebounds for the Heat.

Man I hope one of our future OADs has those intangibles that Winslow has, you just can't teach that.

I don't watch much NBA, but enjoying Reddick, Winslow, and the chippiness of this game. Also, Embiid as the masked villain is fun.

(I like Embiid, but in the mask he is terrifying. Also, I can't imagine the level of frustration wearing something like that. Much respect.)

[JNort]

Please tell me someone else saw him go straight up for that block on Embid!?!?! Absolutely filthy.

[JasonEvans]

Please tell me someone else saw him go straight up for that block on Embid!?!?! Absolutely filthy.

Justise isn't doing much on offense in half #2, but he is having a real impact on the defensive end. He's a very solid player and is still really young. Folks forget that he's just 22. Justise is going to be a real impact player in the league in a couple years, I think.

[construe]

Perhaps a little too early to think about next season, but what're the chances Belineli will replace JJ as the Sixers' main shooting guard? Belineli is not much younger than JJ, but seems more athletic, as well as still bringing the 3pt shot. Or maybe B is the Sixers' version of Jamal Crawford? (JJ seemed to successfully co-exist with Jamal for many years...)

[JNort]

Perhaps a little too early to think about next season, but what're the chances Belineli will replace JJ as the Sixers' main shooting guard? Belineli is not much younger than JJ, but seems more athletic, as well as still bringing the 3pt shot. Or maybe B is the Sixers' version of Jamal Crawford? (JJ seemed to successfully co-exist with Jamal for many years...)
I'm guessing you haven't seen Bel play very much...

[Matches]

I'm guessing you haven't seen Bel play very much...

Yea, he's a nice piece to have off the bench but I don't think he's a starting SG on a good team.

[Troublemaker]

Perhaps a little too early to think about next season, but what're the chances Belineli will replace JJ as the Sixers' main shooting guard? Belineli is not much younger than JJ, but seems more athletic, as well as still bringing the 3pt shot. Or maybe B is the Sixers' version of Jamal Crawford? (JJ seemed to successfully co-exist with Jamal for many years...)

As a free agent, JJ does have to worry about his spot on the roster next season, but his main concern has the first name of Lebron, not Marco.

If you look at Belinelli's career (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3190/marco-belinelli), you'll see that there were only two seasons that he was a consistent starter, and they were awhile ago. He's also not nearly the shooter that JJ (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3024/jj-redick) is if you compare the stats. JJ's shooting has also aged like fine wine.

Belinelli and Ilyasova were huge pickups by the 76ers, though, after being bought out and waived respectively by the Hawks. (Which means Atlanta did a good job because the two would've harmed the tanking effort).

[UrinalCake]

It’s Wins-sanity! Here’s his filthy block on Embiid. I love how he started woofing while he was still on the ground. Unfortunately Embiid got him back on the very next possession. A lot of people seemed to have given up on Justise, but he’s still so young and has a lot of space to improve.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzDiNUsBYXY&feature=youtu.be

[Billy Dat]

FWIW, LeBron says that the reporter, Allie LaForce, prefaced the question by asking off-camera if it was ok for her to bring it up, and that he wasn't caught by surprise (https://deadspin.com/lebron-james-says-he-wasnt-blindsided-by-tnt-reporter-a-1825382794).

After years of watching Jim Gray ask the most incredibly insensitive and awkward post-game questions, and Roy's 'I don't give an S about North Carolina" to Bonnie Bernstein, I am extremely jaded and never expect "the right thing" to be done. What intrigues me about this story is now that we know, as wilson says, that LBJ was briefed that the question was going to be asked, he felt the need to pantomime a surprised reaction as she delivered the news. Couldn't he have said, "Yes, having just heard that news a second ago..." instead of going Hollywood? I understand that these decisions and reactions are all happening in seconds, but that extra bit of acting adds an interesting wrinkle to...what should we call it...LaForcegate?


I don't watch much NBA, but enjoying Reddick, Winslow, and the chippiness of this game. Also, Embiid as the masked villain is fun.

This series is CHIPPY and extremely entertaining. While I didn't see it on TV, twitter reported that Embiid's mask was on the ground and Justise was actively trying to break it with his foot, which led to a volley of retweets with comments similar to, "Duke...what do you expect?" which both made me laugh and spit nails.


As a free agent, JJ does have to worry about his spot on the roster next season, but his main concern has the first name of Lebron, not Marco.

I think much will depend on how far the Sixers go. The "Sixers to the Finals" bandwagon is picking up speed. It's early for that talk, but I think getting that road win last night in that kind of intense game, plus the difference that Embiid being on the floor made, makes it more real than before. JJ has played his way into another nice payday...it'll be interesting.

Other playoff observations:
-Jabari definitely is in a tough spot, did anyone catch those comments yesterday about he and the coach not being on the same page? Yikes. While it's never a good time to suffer a major injury, his timing has been really bad vis-a-vis contracts and such. There has been a lot of criticism of the coach in this series with some of it being that his line-ups are clueless and he's not using guys right, including Jabari.
-The anti Karl Anthony Townes brigade is out in full force. I see tons of criticism of his fitness and commitment. It's hard to find a more criticized pair of #1 picks than he and Wiggins, and there is a ton of talk that Thibs is also not a great coach for the modern NBA. It is amazing how fast the worm can turn and/or the game can pass you by...another reason to appreciate K who constantly evolves with the times.
-The New Orleans storyline is great, especially for Jrue Holiday whose wife had that pregnancy/brain tumor situation in late 2016 and he left the team to be with her for a long stretch. He is locking down that lethal Blazer backcourt.

[JasonEvans]

A few contract notes because I am All About the Benjamins!


I think much will depend on how far the Sixers go. The "Sixers to the Finals" bandwagon is picking up speed. It's early for that talk, but I think getting that road win last night in that kind of intense game, plus the difference that Embiid being on the floor made, makes it more real than before. JJ has played his way into another nice payday...it'll be interesting.

After the payday he got this season ($23 mil), it is no inconceivable that JJ could choose to play for a lot less to be on a contender and really make a run at a championship. I don't think there is a contender who will give him $20+ mil next season. Sadly, I don't think he will be back in Philly next year as they really want to use his contract and their other cap space (it appears they will have $30+ mil available) to get LeBron or some other big-time free agent. I guess he could maybe return if they used their mid-level exception on him, which should be a contract at about $8.5 mil per season (depends on when Philly uses it and what their contract status is at the time, their mid-level exception could be as low as $5.2 mil per season).


-Jabari definitely is in a tough spot, did anyone catch those comments yesterday about he and the coach not being on the same page? Yikes. While it's never a good time to suffer a major injury, his timing has been really bad vis-a-vis contracts and such. There has been a lot of criticism of the coach in this series with some of it being that his line-ups are clueless and he's not using guys right, including Jabari.

Jabari ain't coming back in Milwaukee. That is pretty clear to me at this point. I truly think he will sign a shorter term, lesser deal with someone wiling to play him but not a contender (likely a mid-lower tier team like LA or Knicks or Indiana) in the hope of playing well and getting his mega payday in a year or two.


-The anti Karl Anthony Townes brigade is out in full force. I see tons of criticism of his fitness and commitment. It's hard to find a more criticized pair of #1 picks than he and Wiggins, and there is a ton of talk that Thibs is also not a great coach for the modern NBA. It is amazing how fast the worm can turn and/or the game can pass you by...another reason to appreciate K who constantly evolves with the times.

KAT is struggling right now, but to me the story of the TWolves is what a huge disappointment Wiggins has been this season. He is having his worst year as a pro. He signs a $146 mil deal and promptly sees his scoring average fall by 6 points per game as both his FG and 3FG percentages take a dip. His win shares, box plus minus, and other advanced metrics are all at or near career lows and are largely nowhere near where he was a year ago. There were reports Minnesota was very reluctant to give him his max extension last year and that the Minnesota ownership wanted assurances that Wiggins would continue to work hard at his game. Well, he signed the deal and promptly regressed. Such a pity... I just hope this season was an aberration because I would love to see Minnesota rise up a bit more in the West (though they probably need someone other than Thibs at the helm).


-The New Orleans storyline is great, especially for Jrue Holiday whose wife had that pregnancy/brain tumor situation in late 2016 and he left the team to be with her for a long stretch. He is locking down that lethal Blazer backcourt.

I will freely admit that I thought giving Jrue Holiday a 5-year, $131 mil deal was a huge mistake for the Pelicans. I was wrong. He's posted career highs in Ortg and DRtg as well as VORP and WinShares. Props to the Pelicans for recognizing what he could be and props to Jrue for getting there.

-Jason "suddenly, the Pelicans have a real question to ask about what they do with Boogie because they appear to better with Davis as center" Evans

[sagegrouse]

A few contract notes because I am All About the Benjamins!
If I am all about the Ulysseses, does that make me a cheapskate?




After the payday he got this season ($23 mil), it is no inconceivable that JJ could choose to play for a lot less to be on a contender and really make a run at a championship. I don't think there is a contender who will give him $20+ mil next season. Sadly, I don't think he will be back in Philly next year as they really want to use his contract and their other cap space (it appears they will have $30+ mil available) to get LeBron or some other big-time free agent. I guess he could maybe return if they used their mid-level exception on him, which should be a contract at about $8.5 mil per season (depends on when Philly uses it and what their contract status is at the time, their mid-level exception could be as low as $5.2 mil per season).
Yep. JJ got his record payday this past year. But he had a good year, and I expect him to end up with an attractive contract. (Of course, the NBA minimum of around $2.5 million for a ten-year veteran [JJ's next season is his 13th] looks like a "living wage" to me.)

By the way, four of JJ's best five seasons in terms of scoring have occurred since he turned 30.

[Troublemaker]

I think much will depend on how far the Sixers go.

Anything short of Philly winning it all, and I'd be very concerned about Lebron going there. I just think back to the Durant free agency. The one team no NBA fan wanted to see Durant go to (exception being GSW fans, obviously) was the team he ended up with. It's the super-team, front-runnin' era.



The "Sixers to the Finals" bandwagon is picking up speed. It's early for that talk

Not that early, imo. It really shouldn't surprise anyone if they make the Finals. They're the most talented team in the East, and it helps that they would only have to play one of Toronto and Cleveland.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It’s Wins-sanity! Here’s his filthy block on Embiid. I love how he started woofing while he was still on the ground. Unfortunately Embiid got him back on the very next possession. A lot of people seemed to have given up on Justise, but he’s still so young and has a lot of space to improve.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzDiNUsBYXY&feature=youtu.be

No one's given up on Justise (like they have on Jahlil, who is in a really tough spot), but just think he doesn't possess the All-Star potential many thought he had coming into the league.

Justise - with his defense, intangibles, and good looks - will be in the league for a very long time. I unfortunately cannot say the same thing about Jahlil.

[UrinalCake]

I doubt Redick stays in Philly, he was given a somewhat inflated one-year deal because they needed a veteran to help steady the young guys. But now the young guys are coming into their own, plus they have Belinelli and Saric to play the role of old white guy who shoots threes, so if they make Redick an offer it will be for much less. On a personal note, JJ spoke last year about wanting to sign a long term deal as he suspects it will be his last before retiring, and he wants some stability for his family with now two young kids, so I do suspect he’ll find another home with a multi-year deal for less money per season.

[construe]

I doubt Redick stays in Philly, he was given a somewhat inflated one-year deal because they needed a veteran to help steady the young guys. But now the young guys are coming into their own, plus they have Belinelli and Saric to play the role of old white guy who shoots threes, so if they make Redick an offer it will be for much less. On a personal note, JJ spoke last year about wanting to sign a long term deal as he suspects it will be his last before retiring, and he wants some stability for his family with now two young kids, so I do suspect he’ll find another home with a multi-year deal for less money per season.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking when I asked the question about Belineli. It's mind-blowing to compare JJ's salary re the rest of the team (esp Embiid and Simmons). As JasonEvans said (and T implied), JJ's contract would be the easiest to ditch to make room for another big name, and they could replace what JJ gives them (somewhat) with their collection of Euros (on the flip side, they do some things JJ can't).

JJ is probably my favorite Duke-NBA success story. (Ok, Shane is my favorite, but I think many suspected he'd be a success in whatever he did...) I would love for him to get a ring somehow. I agree that he probably doesn't stay in Philly for the "little" they would be willing to keep him for...but where does he go instead?

Let's hope that Philly makes it to the finals vs the Dubs...and then at least one more Dukie will get a ring!

[godins]

I doubt Redick stays in Philly, he was given a somewhat inflated one-year deal because they needed a veteran to help steady the young guys. But now the young guys are coming into their own, plus they have Belinelli and Saric to play the role of old white guy who shoots threes, so if they make Redick an offer it will be for much less. On a personal note, JJ spoke last year about wanting to sign a long term deal as he suspects it will be his last before retiring, and he wants some stability for his family with now two young kids, so I do suspect he’ll find another home with a multi-year deal for less money per season.

This made me chuckle -- unless Dario Saric ages a decade between now and next season, he'll have to play a different role than "old white guy who shoots threes." The kid turn 24 two weeks ago. :cool:

[dudog84]

I really don't follow the NBA and don't have a team, but with JJ, Philly is my team this year. Will definitely pay more attention than usual. And don't accuse me of jumping on the bandwagon, I won't be woofing or buying any Sixers gear.

[Billy Dat]

After the payday he got this season ($23 mil), it is no inconceivable that JJ could choose to play for a lot less to be on a contender and really make a run at a championship. I don't think there is a contender who will give him $20+ mil next season. Sadly, I don't think he will be back in Philly next year as they really want to use his contract and their other cap space (it appears they will have $30+ mil available) to get LeBron or some other big-time free agent. I guess he could maybe return if they used their mid-level exception on him, which should be a contract at about $8.5 mil per season (depends on when Philly uses it and what their contract status is at the time, their mid-level exception could be as low as $5.2 mil per season).


Yeah, this is what I was thinking when I asked the question about Belineli. It's mind-blowing to compare JJ's salary re the rest of the team (esp Embiid and Simmons). As JasonEvans said (and T implied), JJ's contract would be the easiest to ditch to make room for another big name, and they could replace what JJ gives them (somewhat) with their collection of Euros (on the flip side, they do some things JJ can't)

The JJ salary was a planned one-year anomaly that helped the Sixers as much as it helped JJ. I agree with Jason that it's likely he'll leave because he'll command more than they are willing to pay, and while I think JJ wants to win, I think he is very interested in maximizing that final payday. Maybe he can land with a playoff team anyway, but I am not sure of every other contender's cap situation.


Jabari ain't coming back in Milwaukee. That is pretty clear to me at this point. I truly think he will sign a shorter term, lesser deal with someone wiling to play him but not a contender (likely a mid-lower tier team like LA or Knicks or Indiana) in the hope of playing well and getting his mega payday in a year or two.

KAT is struggling right now, but to me the story of the TWolves is what a huge disappointment Wiggins has been this season.

I will freely admit that I thought giving Jrue Holiday a 5-year, $131 mil deal was a huge mistake for the Pelicans. I was wrong. He's posted career highs in Ortg and DRtg as well as VORP and WinShares. Props to the Pelicans for recognizing what he could be and props to Jrue for getting there.

-Jason "suddenly, the Pelicans have a real question to ask about what they do with Boogie because they appear to better with Davis as center" Evans

I agree that Jabari will try and sign short to make a bet on himself...I hope it works out. The TWolves are so good on paper... You weren't wrong about the Holiday $, I also thought it was too much, and it is nice to be proven wrong. The Pelicans need to do whatever needs to be done to maximize Davis. If that means Boogie is on the move, so be it. It will make for another insane NBA free agent summer...which is just what the league wants.


It really shouldn't surprise anyone if they (Sixers) make the Finals. They're the most talented team in the East, and it helps that they would only have to play one of Toronto and Cleveland.

My gut tells me that this is the year the Raptors break through which is the only reason I am not completely on the Sixers bandwagon.

[darthur]

JJ is probably my favorite Duke-NBA success story. (Ok, Shane is my favorite, but I think many suspected he'd be a success in whatever he did...) I would love for him to get a ring somehow. I agree that he probably doesn't stay in Philly for the "little" they would be willing to keep him for...but where does he go instead?

On behalf of team owner Joe Lacob, I'd like to invite JJ to come join GSW and partake in our rings! :)

I'm sure there's a million reasons why it wouldn't work out, but designated shooter Swaggy P is on a 1-year contract and it's not clear to me why the Warriors would be particularly keen on re-signing him. He's had a down year and is pretty much only getting garbage time minutes in the playoffs so far.

[richardjackson199]

This series is CHIPPY and extremely entertaining. While I didn't see it on TV, twitter reported that Embiid's mask was on the ground and Justise was actively trying to break it with his foot, which led to a volley of retweets with comments similar to, "Duke...what do you expect?" which both made me laugh and spit nails.


"Miami's Justise Winslow was fined $15,000 by the NBA for intentionally stepping on Joel Embiid's mask during Game 3 of the Heat-Sixers series, the NBA announced."

Well Justise was never soft. He gave our 2015 champs a real toughness edge that was evident when our 2015 team beat the cheats. That toughness was also abundantly clear in the national championship game. Nate Dogg James is proud.

[richardjackson199]

"Miami's Justise Winslow was fined $15,000 by the NBA for intentionally stepping on Joel Embiid's mask during Game 3 of the Heat-Sixers series, the NBA announced."

Well Justise was never soft. He gave our 2015 champs a real toughness edge that was evident when our 2015 team beat the cheats. That toughness was also abundantly clear in the national championship game. Nate Dogg James is proud.

Link to story and video:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23269101/justise-winslow-miami-heat-fined-15k-stepping-joel-embiid-mask

[freshmanjs]

Link to story and video:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23269101/justise-winslow-miami-heat-fined-15k-stepping-joel-embiid-mask

Imagine if Grayson did that....

[dukelifer]

Imagine if Grayson did that...

Unfortunately the reputations of members of that class is not great - Jah with the punching incident - Justise with the tripping and chippy play and Grayson with the tripping. Not the best look for the Duke guys.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Unfortunately the reputations of members of that class is not great - Jah with the punching incident - Justise with the tripping and chippy play and Grayson with the tripping. Not the best look for the Duke guys.

I suspect that if Jah was producing on the court, people would be pretty quick to forget his late night incident. Unfortunately, I suspect if you played the word association game with anyone outside Philly, the first reaction to Jahlil would be "who?" Here's to hoping he gets a second life in the NBA soon.

I think you are selling Justise short. Just in the last few days he had been getting his first national media attention since 2015. Most coverage I have heard is that he is a lockdown defensive stopper who is tough and gritty. That has been his reputation for awhile. It seems to me it is his offense that has been the pleasant surprise. I don't hear a lot of folks calling him "dirty," per se.

Grayson on the other hand gets to start with a blank slate. No one (outside this state) will give two rips about his college reputation. The NBA is by and large a meritocracy, and your college baggage doesn't mean anything. Grayson will have to earn his spot, but if he works hard, I see no reason he can't blaze a trail to regular minutes on a team, and when he does, I would wager the media doesn't bring up his "incidents" nearly as often.

[kshepinthehouse]

Are the Cavs in trouble?

[Troublemaker]

Are the Cavs in trouble?

I'm picking/betting on the Pacers to win Game 4, so at the very least, I believe the Cavs will be down 3-1 in this first-round series. And then we'll see where they go from there.

[JasonEvans]

Jabari got some serious burn in the blowout Bucks win. He played 30 minutes and scored 17 points.

I still think Milwaukee will let him walk. I believe they have to tender him a qualifying offer of $7.3 million, which I think they will do. It is possible he takes that so he can become an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2019.

[miramar]

"Miami's Justise Winslow was fined $15,000 by the NBA for intentionally stepping on Joel Embiid's mask during Game 3 of the Heat-Sixers series, the NBA announced."

Well Justise was never soft. He gave our 2015 champs a real toughness edge that was evident when our 2015 team beat the cheats. That toughness was also abundantly clear in the national championship game. Nate Dogg James is proud.

As Laettner would say, it was just a love pat.

[miramar]

No one's given up on Justise (like they have on Jahlil, who is in a really tough spot), but just think he doesn't possess the All-Star potential many thought he had coming into the league.

Justise - with his defense, intangibles, and good looks - will be in the league for a very long time. I unfortunately cannot say the same thing about Jahlil.

Spolstra raves about Justise’s all around game, not to mention that he has improved his outside shooting and finishing on his drives to the basket. Nevertheless the Heat willl need a makeover so there are no guarantees for him in Miami.

[subzero02]

Jabari got some serious burn in the blowout Bucks win. He played 30 minutes and scored 17 points.

I still think Milwaukee will let him walk. I believe they have to tender him a qualifying offer of $7.3 million, which I think they will do. It is possible he takes that so he can become an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2019.

Given his history with knee issues, I've got to imagine that Jabari will be looking for a contract that's a bit longer term than 1 year and more lucrative than $7.3 million.

[richardjackson199]

Unfortunately the reputations of members of that class is not great - Jah with the punching incident - Justise with the tripping and chippy play and Grayson with the tripping. Not the best look for the Duke guys.

That remains my favorite Duke class of all time. So of course I could not be more biased. Tyus reputation will always be Stones, and so glad to see him making it strong in the NBA in his home state no less. What a dream come true. I don't normally follow NBA closely enough to follow his stats, but it's not unusual now to see him get 30 quality minutes a game at PG, playing for Thibs, helping take TWolves to playoffs, and earning his spot. He waited his turn and put in some work in the G-League while Minnesota had Rubio and some other point guards ahead of him. But he continues to live the dream. You didn't mention Tyus, but I think it's important to do so if we're talking about that class.

I agree with MountainDevil about Grayson. I think we all know his tripping incidents were some serious lapses in judgment, but I've never seen anything in college basketball more overblown out of proportion. Anything. Grayson has done more than enough to show growth and strong character. I think that is his reputation going into this draft as a smart player who makes his teammates better and who can shoot the lights out from pro range. He needs to get better consistency on his 3, but he will. I think he goes 2nd round, but I absolutely think he makes it in the NBA, filling a good role making his team better. Duke haters will always hate him. But I hardly think that silliness will get much mention or thought in the league either.

Justise is a tough badass playing well. Stepping on the glasses was not malicious or aggressive. I took it as kind of funny, and just part of the tough back and forth he was having with Embiid. It's not like he was trying to hide it. I think he just was trying to get in Embiid's head a little and under his skin. Not dirty to me. Justise is already a good NBA player on a playoff team, and his tough defensive mindset earns him respect. He's only going to get better. If he develops more consistent shooting and scoring ability, he can take it to another level. But he's a guy I'd want on my team. I don't think he has a reputation as a dirty player among his peers, just the Duke haters.

I also agree with Mountain on Jah. He made an immature mistake with the punching incident. But I think that has zilch to do with his problem right now which is not earning hardly any playing time. I loved Jah, his family, and what he brought to Duke. I think he's a good character guy too. If he's going to make it in the NBA, he's really going to have to work for it and prove himself. As a top 3 draft pick, I believe he has the ability to help a team. It sucks for him that he came into the league in a time when small ball and stretch 4's are now the game they're playing. He would probably be a stud player for some team back in the Pistons heyday when classic big men were at a premium. I still believe in him and sure hope he succeeds. To do it he's really going to have to believe in himself and work harder than he's ever worked.

So I think in total, the look for Duke's players is still uber-strong brotherhood representatives that I'm very proud of and will continue to root hard to succeed. Duke's players in the NBA show amazingly good character as a group IMO, at least from what little we see from the outside. Compare them with say Raymond Felton and Ty Lawson. Talk about about reputations not being great and not the best look for the Cheat guys. Or what about the greatest player Ol Roy has ever seen, P.J. Hairston? MJ drinking the Kool-Aid traded Shabazz Napier to get him on the Hornets. Hairston was waived by the Rockets Oct. 2016, to the D-League. And after that, he proved he still knows how to be a gangsta - lended cars driven fast, guns, drugs, and "harrassing communications":

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article151142902.html

Maybe it's UNCheat who should have taught their guys a little more class.

[richardjackson199]

I'm picking/betting on the Pacers to win Game 4, so at the very least, I believe the Cavs will be down 3-1 in this first-round series. And then we'll see where they go from there.

Vegas has Pacers -1.0. But I'll take the Cavs to win game 4. It's really must-win for them. I just have to bet on Lebron to rally his guys around a must-win game in a first round series against Bogdanovic and Oladipo. Bojan won't be hitting for another 30. I especially think the Cavs win after all the heat Lebron and the Cavs took in social media and media for showing up to game 3 in matching, tailor-made suits bought by Lebron and then blowing their lead. Lebron isn't going out like that.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/twitter-is-roasting-the-cavaliers-for-showing-up-in-matching-suits-and-blowing-a-17-point-lead/ar-AAw84l8?li=BBnba9I

Will be interesting for sure!

(And the Cavs really might be in trouble, I just predicted they'll win against the spread!) ;)

[richardjackson199]

As Laettner would say, it was just a love pat.

Yep.

There is a difference between playing physical and playing dirty. Justise isn't afraid to play physical.

Examples of dirty players would be Kelly Olynyk and Zaza Pachulia.

[Steven43]

I think Pippen was the greatest #2 guy in history. He could score, bring the ball up, play defense, rebound and make his team better..
I would take Kevin McHale (#2 in support of the legendary Larry Bird) at his peak over Pippen as the best #2 guy in history. You had to actually see McHale play, though. Looking at the stats doesn’t come close to telling the true story for either Kevin or Scottie.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I would take Kevin McHale (#2 in support of the legendary Larry Bird) at his peak over Pippen as the best #2 guy in history. You had to actually see McHale play, though. Looking at the stats doesn’t come close to telling the true story for either Kevin or Scottie.

LeBron as the #2 to Kyrie the past few years was pretty strong... just kidding, but Kyrie and Steph were pretty amazing number 2’s last year. Drexel to Hakeem. Kobe to Shaq, and then Shaq to Kobe. Kareem/Worthy to Magic. Wade (or was it Battier??) to LeBron.

[NSDukeFan]

LeBron as the #2 to Kyrie the past few years was pretty strong... just kidding, but Kyrie and Steph were pretty amazing number 2’s last year. Drexel to Hakeem. Kobe to Shaq, and then Shaq to Kobe. Kareem/Worthy to Magic. Wade (or was it Battier??) to LeBron.

I wouldn't rank Drexler very high up there on the list of #2s. He was a great #1 for many years in Portland, but was not as strong a player in Houston. My recollection is that when Houston won its titles, they had a pretty good supporting cast, but Olajuwon was just awesome.

[construe]

Well, Belineli is now showing me that perhaps JJ doesn’t have so much to worry about…though, sheesh, no one on the Sixers is able to reliably produce any offense today outside of JJ. He’s really the only person they seem to run any actual sets for. Simmons is an amazing talent, but he relies mostly on broken plays or taking his man in the open court.

One thing I will say about NBA playoffs: as the pressure mounts, the game becomes -so- physical, that it can turn into ugly basketball. These guys are so physical and athletic that when they really start trying, bodies start flying and the defense becomes a wrestling match (JJ is literally held every time he tries to get free around a screen). I don’t know how the refs can keep up with all the contact.

I know the college game doesn’t have the athletes (or skill) of the pros, but in a single-elimination tournament, I think the pressure makes players more cautious, which can lead to more strategic and calculating basketball. (Of course, it can also lead to awful brick-fests like the 2002 finals, etc.) So I like the NCAAs not only because of the pressure and “madness” of the results, but the basketball is actually more watchable to me.

(ps: Winslow is playing like a real bad____ this game, which is fun to see...)

[construe]

(And just after writing that, the Sixers suddenly stop turning the ball over, start running an offense, and look like a real team again. And Winslow starts fouling...)

[darthur]

LeBron as the #2 to Kyrie the past few years was pretty strong... just kidding, but Kyrie and Steph were pretty amazing number 2’s last year. Drexel to Hakeem. Kobe to Shaq, and then Shaq to Kobe. Kareem/Worthy to Magic. Wade (or was it Battier??) to LeBron.

Pretty cool when your #2 has higher scoring, higher assists, higher usage, higher plus/minus, and higher solo win/loss rate than your "#1" guy. :)

Regardless of who's more talented, the Warriors are still through-and-through Steph's team and their entire game plan is built around him and not KD. It's worth pointing out that even in KD's best moment with the Warriors -- last year's finals -- he was succeeding partly because *Steph* was the focal point of the Cavs defense, not him. Remember that 2-on-2 fastbreak where both Cavs jumped out to defend Steph on the 3 point line and left KD a wide open dunk for example?

[construe]

That Philly-Miami 4th qt was fun! JJ was able to answer Old-Man-Time Wade's heroics. Hilarious that on Wade's last FT miss, who sneaks in there among all the trees to snag the rebound, knowing Miami will foul and he can ice the game?...our man, JJ...

[JasonEvans]

JJ was fabulous today. The only remotely reliable offensive player for Philly and he grabbed a huge rebound and then knocked down 2 FTs to ice the game. As the final horn sounded, JJ have a huge high five to Philly coach Brett Brown.

Meanwhile, Dwayne Wade looks like he is 28 again out there. I’m not sure if we are watching his final games, but if we are, he is going out in a biiig way. Props to one of the all-time greats.

Jason “Justise played a lot late in the game but had some bad mistakes on O. He’s fab on D, but still learning at the other end” Evans

[MartyClark]

JJ was fabulous today. The only remotely reliable offensive player for Philly and he grabbed a huge rebound and then knocked down 2 FTs to ice the game. As the final horn sounded, JJ have a huge high five to Philly coach Brett Brown.

Meanwhile, Dwayne Wade looks like he is 28 again out there. I’m not sure if we are watching his final games, but if we are, he is going out in a biiig way. Props to one of the all-time greats.

Jason “Justise played a lot late in the game but had some bad mistakes on O. He’s fab on D, but still learning at the other end” Evans

Entertaining, hard fought game. JJ is the man!

[JasonEvans]

The Blazers were really good this year... won 49 games in the very competitive West... so how are the Pelicans handling them with such ease? It really feels like New Orleans is a whole different team with Davis at C, not PF.

-Jason "bye Boogie -- does that mean New Orleans will have some workable cap room?" Evans

[CDu]

The Blazers were really good this year... won 49 games in the very competitive West... so how are the Pelicans handling them with such ease? It really feels like New Orleans is a whole different team with Davis at C, not PF.

-Jason "bye Boogie -- does that mean New Orleans will have some workable cap room?" Evans

The irony is that Davis HATES playing center. Even though they are clearly better when he is playing center.

As for cap space, no. In addition to big money for AD and Holiday, they have a bunch of money tied up next year in Mirotic, Solomon Hill, E'twaan Moore, and Alex Ajinca. So they have no money available.

[darthur]

The Blazers were really good this year... won 49 games in the very competitive West... so how are the Pelicans handling them with such ease? It really feels like New Orleans is a whole different team with Davis at C, not PF.

-Jason "bye Boogie -- does that mean New Orleans will have some workable cap room?" Evans

AD seems to be a big fan of Boogie. Not sure he'd be happy with a trade.

I don't know quite what to make of the series. The Blazers live and die with their guards, and Dame was terrible all series. But the Pelicans D certainly had something to do with that, and the Pelicans O looked terrific. A bit scary from a Warriors fan perspective.

[JNort]

That remains my favorite Duke class of all time. So of course I could not be more biased. Tyus reputation will always be Stones, and so glad to see him making it strong in the NBA in his home state no less. What a dream come true. I don't normally follow NBA closely enough to follow his stats, but it's not unusual now to see him get 30 quality minutes a game at PG, playing for Thibs, helping take TWolves to playoffs, and earning his spot. He waited his turn and put in some work in the G-League while Minnesota had Rubio and some other point guards ahead of him. But he continues to live the dream. You didn't mention Tyus, but I think it's important to do so if we're talking about that class.

I agree with MountainDevil about Grayson. I think we all know his tripping incidents were some serious lapses in judgment, but I've never seen anything in college basketball more overblown out of proportion. Anything. Grayson has done more than enough to show growth and strong character. I think that is his reputation going into this draft as a smart player who makes his teammates better and who can shoot the lights out from pro range. He needs to get better consistency on his 3, but he will. I think he goes 2nd round, but I absolutely think he makes it in the NBA, filling a good role making his team better. Duke haters will always hate him. But I hardly think that silliness will get much mention or thought in the league either.

Justise is a tough badass playing well. Stepping on the glasses was not malicious or aggressive. I took it as kind of funny, and just part of the tough back and forth he was having with Embiid. It's not like he was trying to hide it. I think he just was trying to get in Embiid's head a little and under his skin. Not dirty to me. Justise is already a good NBA player on a playoff team, and his tough defensive mindset earns him respect. He's only going to get better. If he develops more consistent shooting and scoring ability, he can take it to another level. But he's a guy I'd want on my team. I don't think he has a reputation as a dirty player among his peers, just the Duke haters.

I also agree with Mountain on Jah. He made an immature mistake with the punching incident. But I think that has zilch to do with his problem right now which is not earning hardly any playing time. I loved Jah, his family, and what he brought to Duke. I think he's a good character guy too. If he's going to make it in the NBA, he's really going to have to work for it and prove himself. As a top 3 draft pick, I believe he has the ability to help a team. It sucks for him that he came into the league in a time when small ball and stretch 4's are now the game they're playing. He would probably be a stud player for some team back in the Pistons heyday when classic big men were at a premium. I still believe in him and sure hope he succeeds. To do it he's really going to have to believe in himself and work harder than he's ever worked.

So I think in total, the look for Duke's players is still uber-strong brotherhood representatives that I'm very proud of and will continue to root hard to succeed. Duke's players in the NBA show amazingly good character as a group IMO, at least from what little we see from the outside. Compare them with say Raymond Felton and Ty Lawson. Talk about about reputations not being great and not the best look for the Cheat guys. Or what about the greatest player Ol Roy has ever seen, P.J. Hairston? MJ drinking the Kool-Aid traded Shabazz Napier to get him on the Hornets. Hairston was waived by the Rockets Oct. 2016, to the D-League. And after that, he proved he still knows how to be a gangsta - lended cars driven fast, guns, drugs, and "harrassing communications":

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article151142902.html

Maybe it's UNCheat who should have taught their guys a little more class.

If Justise wasn't one of my all time favorite Dukies I'm sure he would be my least favorite guy in the NBA. We clearly have different opinions on what he did and had done. Yes he does play tough and physical but he also has played dirty, cheap and used malicious seeming behavior at times.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If Justise wasn't one of my all time favorite Dukies I'm sure he would be my least favorite guy in the NBA. We clearly have different opinions on what he did and had done. Yes he does play tough and physical but he also has played dirty, cheap and used malicious seeming behavior at times.

[citation needed]

[ipatent]

[citation needed]

Stepping on an injured player's mask really isn't defensible.

[Eternal Outlaw]

The Blazers were really good this year... won 49 games in the very competitive West... so how are the Pelicans handling them with such ease? It really feels like New Orleans is a whole different team with Davis at C, not PF.

-Jason "bye Boogie -- does that mean New Orleans will have some workable cap room?" Evans

Their 13 game win streak was aided by a lot of good fortune. Also once the gloves are off in the playoffs and things get physical, having two under sized guards that run the engine is not a good thing.

Besides the 13 game win streak, they were 36-33 so a pretty average team overall besides one hot stretch. That stretch probably got them in the playoffs rather than the Nuggets as the West was so tight 3-9.

[miramar]

Stepping on an injured player's mask really isn't defensible.

Justise also picked it up and broke it some more. Fortunately, Embiid seems to have a pretty good sense of humor about the whole thing:

“Justise stepped on it and tried to break it with his hands,” Embiid said. “But little do they know is that I have about 50 of them. So it’s going to take much more than that to get me out of the series.”

[Bluedog]

At Duke, Justise also had a few incidents where he was on the ground and basically tried to tangle up other players with his feet. There's a YouTube video montage of the plays with "Kung Fu Fighting" playing. Having said that, love me some Justice. But love is certainly in the eye of the beholder -- one can view it as him being a bad a** and somebody else views it as dirty.

[richardjackson199]

At Duke, Justise also had a few incidents where he was on the ground and basically tried to tangle up other players with his feet. There's a YouTube video montage of the plays with "Kung Fu Fighting" playing. Having said that, love me some Justise. But love is certainly in the eye of the beholder -- one can view it as him being a bad a** and somebody else views it as dirty.

Me too! That's why I prefaced it with, I could not be more biased. The game today was extremely physical and chippy. But Justise was helping Embiid up off the ground and vice versa. I think it's understood back and forth just part of the game. I can't say he's never taken it too far and crossed the line before.

[subzero02]

Towns needs some time in the weight room... he's getting bullied physically and psychologically.

[Furniture]

[citation needed]

Agreed. Gosh. Lots of unacceptable Justice disparagement in his comment there.

[Kedsy]

Agreed. Gosh. Lots of unacceptable Justice disparagement in his comment there.

Depends upon what lens you're wearing when you watch. As a Sixers fan, I have to say that I think Justise has crossed the line several times in this series. Though I admit if Justise was still playing for Duke I might feel differently.

[darthur]

The OKC/Jazz game has been electric. I think this has been my favorite series to watch so far.

As with Indiana, it's fun to watch great basketball from teams with limited star power.

[Trey21]

Some people's opinion on the Justise / Embiid thing takes the whole situation, not too mention basketball in general, maybe a bit too seriously.

Look I get there's unwritten rules in at any level in any sport, but given the context I found the thing to be both hilarious and an all time classic showcase of Justise's cool "I don't give a (insert ford word here)" zero chill competitiveness.
Given the context:
A) being the playoffs B) Embiid who is basically a 2018 hakeem shaking and Shaq meme making entertainer C) NBA over the last decade has really bought into the WWE-ness of players buying into the persona's and other narratives

Justise did'nt cross a line for me. This sheet is for the fans - some will like it, some will hate it. Naturally I'm a Justise fan, and knowing Joel he's probably giggling about it taking it in stride as he uses it as fuel to dominate. I could see why it'd upset a lot of college basketball, or frankly older hoop heads, who probably also complain about who NBA players don't care, or lack the fury competitiveness of the 80-90's, but in the contemporary NBA this stuff is just adds more TNT "we know drama" to the series. Both of them are balling out.

[JNort]

Some people's opinion on the Justise / Embiid thing takes the whole situation, not too mention basketball in general, maybe a bit too seriously.

Look I get there's unwritten rules in at any level in any sport, but given the context I found the thing to be both hilarious and an all time classic showcase of Justise's cool "I don't give a (insert ford word here)" zero chill competitiveness.
Given the context:
A) being the playoffs B) Embiid who is basically a 2018 hakeem shaking and Shaq meme making entertainer C) NBA over the last decade has really bought into the WWE-ness of players buying into the persona's and other narratives

Justise did'nt cross a line for me. This sheet is for the fans - some will like it, some will hate it. Naturally I'm a Justise fan, and knowing Joel he's probably giggling about it taking it in stride as he uses it as fuel to dominate. I could see why it'd upset a lot of college basketball, or frankly older hoop heads, who probably also complain about who NBA players don't care, or lack the fury competitiveness of the 80-90's, but in the contemporary NBA this stuff is just adds more TNT "we know drama" to the series. Both of them are balling out.
For me as long as you don't cross the line of intentionally trying to mess with somebodys health in a negative way then it's ok. Love him but Justise has on a couple of occasions crossed that line.

[WillJ]

FWIW, there was a trip in one of the games last night (Utah/OKC, IIRC) and while the announcers clearly called it a trip there was absolutely no response from anybody - players, coaches, referees, announcers - that this was anything other than a normal foul. And appropriately so. The focus on Grayson's misdemeanors was soooooo over the top. Sigh.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

For me as long as you don't cross the line of intentionally trying to mess with somebodys health in a negative way then it's ok. Love him but Justise has on a couple of occasions crossed that line.

Again, I would ask you for examples. Not trying to be a jerk, just genuinely surprised by this line of thinking.

[Troublemaker]

But the Pelicans D certainly had something to do with that, and the Pelicans O looked terrific. A bit scary from a Warriors fan perspective.

Ever since you guys added Durant to a 73-win team, the right of GSW fans to be concerned about an opponent has been revoked :-)

Concern about Curry's health is cool, though.

[JasonEvans]

Stepping on an injured player's mask really isn't defensible.

Why? It isn't something that will hurt the player like an overly hard foul or a push or a trip. It merely takes a player out of the game -- if only for the short amount of time it takes for the player to gt a new mask. What is dirty or mean about that? Heck, I think it is kinda funny.

I recall a game once where a player lost a shoe and an opponent tossed it pretty far into the crowd. The player who lost the shoe had to come out of the game while his shoe was retrieved from the fans, who did not want to give it up. I think that is hysterical.

Justise plays hard and uses his physicality to get an advantage wherever he can. Does he cross the line from hard to dirty some of the time, yeah, he probably does. But that makes him no different from Draymond, Laimbeer, Rodman, and a heck of a lot of other really, really successful players. I would draw the line at intentionally trying to hurt opposing players, which is what Zaza sometimes does, IMO.

-Jason "I think a good team wants/needs a guy like Justise on the roster... he's gonna be in the league a loooong time as testament to that" Evans

[Troublemaker]

Vegas has Pacers -1.0. But I'll take the Cavs to win game 4. It's really must-win for them. I just have to bet on Lebron to rally his guys around a must-win game in a first round series against Bogdanovic and Oladipo.

Yeah, I just don't know if they'll be in the rallying mood again for a third straight game. After the Game 1 embarrassment, Cleveland pounced on Indiana early in Game 2, taking a 15-pt lead after 1Q. But then Indiana began outplaying them and slowly chipped away at the lead the rest of the game and almost tied it; Oladipo missed a wide-open three for the tie at the end. Then, in Game 3, the Cavs once again came out hot, ready to take control of the series, and took the 17-pt lead at halftime, which they then blew in the 2nd half for the loss, as you noted. I don't think Cleveland has the chemistry (or maybe talent) to muster up a big effort at the beginning of the game again. The Cavs can win Game 4 but it'll have to be by role-reversal. I think the Pacers will come out hot and kick their butts for awhile, and we'll see if Cleveland has the mettle to come back on Indiana.

[COYS]

Ever since you guys added Durant to a 73-win team, the right of GSW fans to be concerned about an opponent has been revoked :-)

Concern about Curry's health is cool, though.

That Portland team has been a bad defensive team for a while until the second half of this season when they changed their defensive scheme to have all of their big guys drop deep into the paint on screens and McCollum and Dame (two defensively suspect guards) play ultra conservatively to prevent drives. The switch in strategy gave up a lot of open threes and jumpers, but prevented opposing teams from killing them on drives to the hoop. However, that scheme has serious weaknesses, especially as the skill level of opposing big men and guards increases. It worked in the regular season to an extent, but now that the postseason is here, Holiday, Davis, and company have been happily using the extra space to attack and, when Portland has readjusted to a more traditional scheme, they’ve been easily burning Portland’s suspect defenders one on one.

Golden State’s defensive scheme is completely different. I doubt that the Pelicans will be able to attack the Warriors as easily. With Iggy, Thompson, and Draymond, the Warriors have THREE guys who are all better than Portland’s best defender. With Curry out, the match-up is much more even than it would be, otherwise. But if I were a Warriors fan, I wouldn’t worry so much about the Pelicans offense destroying the Golden State defense like it has the Portland defense. They’re two entirely different beasts.

[darthur]

Ever since you guys added Durant to a 73-win team, the right of GSW fans to be concerned about an opponent has been revoked :-)

Concern about Curry's health is cool, though.

Well these aren't totally exclusive!

It sounds like Curry will be returning midway through Round 2 and if 2016 is any indication, he may not be his old self right away. So I'm unsure how much he will help this series.
The Warriors without Curry are a very good team, but hardly invincible. Also... I don't how it's possible to be a fan of any team and not worry about what's coming up. :)

[richardjackson199]

That Portland team has been a bad defensive team for a while until the second half of this season when they changed their defensive scheme to have all of their big guys drop deep into the paint on screens and McCollum and Dame (two defensively suspect guards) play ultra conservatively to prevent drives. The switch in strategy gave up a lot of open threes and jumpers, but prevented opposing teams from killing them on drives to the hoop. However, that scheme has serious weaknesses, especially as the skill level of opposing big men and guards increases. It worked in the regular season to an extent, but now that the postseason is here, Holiday, Davis, and company have been happily using the extra space to attack and, when Portland has readjusted to a more traditional scheme, they’ve been easily burning Portland’s suspect defenders one on one.

Golden State’s defensive scheme is completely different. I doubt that the Pelicans will be able to attack the Warriors as easily. With Iggy, Thompson, and Draymond, the Warriors have THREE guys who are all better than Portland’s best defender. With Curry out, the match-up is much more even than it would be, otherwise. But if I were a Warriors fan, I wouldn’t worry so much about the Pelicans offense destroying the Golden State defense like it has the Portland defense. They’re two entirely different beasts.

Excellent analysis, and I could not agree more. Durant is also an excellent defender, an underrated part of his game, which tends to start breaks. GSW will be fine.

[richardjackson199]

Yeah, I just don't know if they'll be in the rallying mood again for a third straight game. After the Game 1 embarrassment, Cleveland pounced on Indiana early in Game 2, taking a 15-pt lead after 1Q. But then Indiana began outplaying them and slowly chipped away at the lead the rest of the game and almost tied it; Oladipo missed a wide-open three for the tie at the end. Then, in Game 3, the Cavs once again came out hot, ready to take control of the series, and took the 17-pt lead at halftime, which they then blew in the 2nd half for the loss, as you noted. I don't think Cleveland has the chemistry (or maybe talent) to muster up a big effort at the beginning of the game again. The Cavs can win Game 4 but it'll have to be by role-reversal. I think the Pacers will come out hot and kick their butts for awhile, and we'll see if Cleveland has the mettle to come back on Indiana.

Vegas also considers this game fascinating. The line has moved from -1 or -1.5 Pacers to -1 now for Cleveland. So most bettors aren't buying the recency bias argument of what happened the last 3 games. And whatever most bettors are/aren't buying means zilch, so I can't wait.

I couldn't begin to speculate the narrative for this game. But Lebron has led his team to the last 7 NBA Finals (and an 8th one in 2007) for 2 reasons - because the NBA East has been pretty weak and because Lebron is one of the greatest to ever play the game. And he still is near the top of his game. So Cleveland has the talent my friend.

In a first round series, I would not bet against Lebron with his back against the wall. He will not let his team lose this game. These Pacers aren't exactly the Warriors. And there is no way George Hill misses this game due to back spasms. He will play and play well.

I have enough pie in the oven already. So let's make a friendly gentleman's wager of DBR bragging rights on who wins this game. Nothing tangible. With the spread going from -1 Pacers to -1 Cavs, I'd say it's basically pick-em. Cavs win Game 4, I win. Pacers win you win.

No way Lebron loses this game. :cool:

Should be fun!

[richardjackson199]

Why? It isn't something that will hurt the player like an overly hard foul or a push or a trip. It merely takes a player out of the game -- if only for the short amount of time it takes for the player to gt a new mask. What is dirty or mean about that? Heck, I think it is kinda funny.

I recall a game once where a player lost a shoe and an opponent tossed it pretty far into the crowd. The player who lost the shoe had to come out of the game while his shoe was retrieved from the fans, who did not want to give it up. I think that is hysterical.

Justise plays hard and uses his physicality to get an advantage wherever he can. Does he cross the line from hard to dirty some of the time, yeah, he probably does. But that makes him no different from Draymond, Laimbeer, Rodman, and a heck of a lot of other really, really successful players. I would draw the line at intentionally trying to hurt opposing players, which is what Zaza sometimes does, IMO.

-Jason "I think a good team wants/needs a guy like Justise on the roster... he's gonna be in the league a loooong time as testament to that" Evans

Absolutely. The value of physical play is one NBA role that has remained through the years.

In the past guys like Rodman, Laimbeer, Charles Oakley, Bruce Bowen, and Dahntay Jones showcased the efficacy of physicality.

Today, Draymond, Steven Adams, Patrick Beverley, Dellavedova, and now Justise are some of the best physical players who get in your head. The most successful teams will usually have guys who fill this role.

Dirty players OTOH include Ron Artest (changing name to Metta World Peace didn't change that), Chris Paul, Serge Ibaka, Kelly Olynyk, and Zaza is the worst.

Certainly most of the "physical" players have probably crossed the line at times. And which side of the line the players belong on certainly depends on who you're rooting for. So just my opinion.

[richardjackson199]

Absolutely. The value of physical play is one NBA role that has remained through the years.

In the past guys like Rodman, Laimbeer, Charles Oakley, Bruce Bowen, and Dahntay Jones showcased the efficacy of physicality.

Today, Draymond, Steven Adams, Patrick Beverley, Dellavedova, and now Justise are some of the best physical players who get in your head. The most successful teams will usually have guys who fill this role.

Dirty players OTOH include Ron Artest (changing name to Metta World Peace didn't change that), Chris Paul, Serge Ibaka, Kelly Olynyk, and Zaza is the worst.

Certainly most of the "physical" players have probably crossed the line at times. And which side of the line the players belong on certainly depends on who you're rooting for. So just my opinion.

Physicality certainly adds a level of gamesmanship, especially as the stakes rise. The Sixers had won 17 in a row with beautiful, amazing basketball, at times putting up over 80 points in a half. It's like Spoelstra said, let's see them do that with some "heat." And their team is built for it (probably not by accident). James Johnson, Justise, D. Wade, Whiteside, Olynyk, and Bam are tough dudes playing that way. I think that is a huge part of why the winning streak ended, and why this has been a close, compelling series (albeit a nightmare series to officiate!).

[Steven43]

For sure. I mean, it's pretty simple. Kyrie left, and Cleveland didn't replace him with any player that approaches how good Kyrie is. (They were [way too optimistically] hoping that replacement would be Isaiah Thomas). So this Cleveland team is now a clear downgrade from any prior version that had Kyrie.
A clear downgrade? Well, the Cleveland team that played Golden State in the Finals of the 2014-2015 season was without Kyrie from Gane 2 on, and they put up a real fight. If Cleveland had won Gane 1–which went to overtime—they might have eventually been up 3-0 in the series because they ended up winning games 2 and 3. Had they gone up 3-0 they very likely would have won the championship. Why can’t they threaten to win again this year with what might be a superior roster to that one?

[Trey21]

Jabari had his best first half of his career in this game 4.

12 pt. 5 boards 3 blocks 2 steals

Plus a really nice dish to Giannis for a slam. He's being really aggressive on D and being purposeful on O.

[Troublemaker]

A clear downgrade? Well, the Cleveland team that played Golden State in the Finals of the 2014-2015 season was without Kyrie from Gane 2 on, and they put up a real fight. If Cleveland had won Gane 1–which went to overtime—they might have eventually been up 3-0 in the series because they ended up winning games 2 and 3. Had they gone up 3-0 they very likely would have won the championship. Why can’t they threaten to win again this year with what might be a superior roster to that one?

Because the last 3 games of that Finals were not competitive after Steve Kerr stopped being stubborn and started playing his best lineup (Draymond Green at center). Shorthanded Cleveland was only competitive because of Kerr's slow realization. (Smart analysts on NBA twitter were begging him to play that lineup more...)

Also, the East is stronger this year. Forget the Finals. The odds are against Cleveland even making it there.

[gep]

Absolutely. The value of physical play is one NBA role that has remained through the years.

In the past guys like Rodman, Laimbeer, Charles Oakley, Bruce Bowen, and Dahntay Jones showcased the efficacy of physicality.

Today, Draymond, Steven Adams, Patrick Beverley, Dellavedova, and now Justise are some of the best physical players who get in your head. The most successful teams will usually have guys who fill this role.

Dirty players OTOH include Ron Artest (changing name to Metta World Peace didn't change that), Chris Paul, Serge Ibaka, Kelly Olynyk, and Zaza is the worst.

Certainly most of the "physical" players have probably crossed the line at times. And which side of the line the players belong on certainly depends on who you're rooting for. So just my opinion.

And don't forget Malone... blast from the past... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdUT3GPlGwU

Body blocks, elbows, tripping... all there.

[richardjackson199]

And don't forget Malone... blast from the past... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdUT3GPlGwU

Body blocks, elbows, tripping... all there.

In that video clip, Rodman literally trips Malone more times in a few seconds than Grayson tripped anybody in a few years at Duke. And the reaction was, Oh that's just Dennis being Dennis. I love how he raised his hands as the ref blows the whistle in feigned disbelief that he had committed a foul. When it came to getting in another's head with physical play, Rodman is probably the best of all time. He was absolutlely nuts, but you can't argue his genius when it came to that and rebounding.

[Troublemaker]

Man, that was an inspiring win by the Spurs. The crowd was raucous and willing them to victory despite being down 0-3. A little bit of "win for Pop" in there, and some "win for Manu" in perhaps his final home game as well.

Doesn't really change the series, of course, and Vegas can't make the line high enough for Game 5. That's going to be a murder. But this Game 4 win could give you goosebumps if you weren't rooting for GSW.

[darthur]

Man, that was an inspiring win by the Spurs. The crowd was raucous and willing them to victory despite being down 0-3. A little bit of "win for Pop" in there, and some "win for Manu" in perhaps his final home game as well.

Doesn't really change the series, of course, and Vegas can't make the line high enough for Game 5. That's going to be a murder. But this Game 4 win could give you goosebumps if you weren't rooting for GSW.

It was an odd game from a GS perspective. I thought the effort was very good -- they dominated the boards, they were attacking aggressively in transition, and they kept at it even after giving up a big lead -- but the execution was poor, the Spurs were on fire from deep, and bad shooting from Klay is a big problem when Steph is out. Of course poor execution happens a lot against the Spurs, and their always-terrific defense is a part of the reason why.

I think Draymond's statline kinda typifies the night, 18 rebounds (including 8 offensive) and 9 assists, but 5 turnovers and just 9 points on 14 shots. I don't like spotting Draymond up in the corner like we've been doing this series. His main threat from deep is his passing, not his shooting, and he can't do that in the corner.

As you say, it's hard to begrudge the Spurs this game, but I hope you're right about Game 5!

[Troublemaker]

I have enough pie in the oven already. So let's make a friendly gentleman's wager of DBR bragging rights on who wins this game.

You win this round, Mr. Jackson. I'm just surprised the game followed the same script from the two previous games -- Cavs getting out to a big lead, Pacers clawing back. But unlike Game 3, Cleveland made the clutch plays in the final minutes to win. Indiana's nerves at the beginning of the game -- several blown layups -- surprised me a bit. The underdog should play loose!

[dukelifer]

You win this round, Mr. Jackson. I'm just surprised the game followed the same script from the two previous games -- Cavs getting out to a big lead, Pacers clawing back. But unlike Game 3, Cleveland made the clutch plays in the final minutes to win. Indiana's nerves at the beginning of the game -- several blown layups -- surprised me a bit. The underdog should play loose!

not over yet

[darthur]

You win this round, Mr. Jackson. I'm just surprised the game followed the same script from the two previous games -- Cavs getting out to a big lead, Pacers clawing back. But unlike Game 3, Cleveland made the clutch plays in the final minutes to win. Indiana's nerves at the beginning of the game -- several blown layups -- surprised me a bit. The underdog should play loose!

If anything, I think the game vindicated the Vegas odds-makers saying it was essentially a pick-em. The Cavs won but that was thanks to a 70 foot prayer from JR Smith, a poor performance from Oladipo, and the resurrection of Kyle Korver (with 2 blocks even!).

I never quite know what to think of games like this from LeBron. It seemed like he just disappeared for much of the second half. He was routinely getting pretty good opportunities for others, but he didn't press his own personal advantage into either high percentage shots or double teams nearly as much as I thought he could/should. I'm not at all a fan of Chris Webber's philosophy that your best player should take every shot in 4th quarters, but LeBron is something of a special case. As good as his final statline was, it feels like he could have done significantly more if he pushed himself to. I'm curious if he (a) thought pressing on his own was actually not better, (b) was tired, (c) thought it was important to get his teammates going for the long haul, (d) is actually not giving it his all, or (e) something else. Did others watch? Curious what you all thought.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If anything, I think the game vindicated the Vegas odds-makers saying it was essentially a pick-em. The Cavs won but that was thanks to a 70 foot prayer from JR Smith, a poor performance from Oladipo, and the resurrection of Kyle Korver (with 2 blocks even!).

I never quite know what to think of games like this from LeBron. It seemed like he just disappeared for much of the second half. He was routinely getting pretty good opportunities for others, but he didn't press his own personal advantage into either high percentage shots or double teams nearly as much as I thought he could/should. I'm not at all a fan of Chris Webber's philosophy that your best player should take every shot in 4th quarters, but LeBron is something of a special case. As good as his final statline was, it feels like he could have done significantly more if he pushed himself to. I'm curious if he (a) thought pressing on his own was actually not better, (b) was tired, (c) thought it was important to get his teammates going for the long haul, (d) is actually not giving it his all, or (e) something else. Did others watch? Curious what you all thought.

32 points on 22 shots? 13 rebounds and 7 assists? Not pushing himself?

We are spoiled when it comes to James.

[darthur]

32 points on 22 shots? 13 rebounds and 7 assists? Not pushing himself?

We are spoiled when it comes to James.

We are -- he's an absolute force of nature. Doesn't change the fact that I came out of the game thinking he could have done even more if he wanted to. :)

Edit: Maybe one way to see it is, if you forget about his 3s, he shot 12/17 with 8/9 from the free throw line, which is nuts. The Pacers seemed just completely incapable of defending LeBron inside the arc, so why did he stop going there for long stretches of time? It felt to me like LeBron could keep on generating those same looks if he wanted, but stopped doing it for a long period in the second half. He clearly had a great game. Just surprised he didn't push it even further when it was working so well and the game was so important.

[CajunDevil]

We are -- he's an absolute force of nature. Doesn't change the fact that I came out of the game thinking he could have done even more if he wanted to. :)

Edit: Maybe one way to see it is, if you forget about his 3s, he shot 12/17 with 8/9 from the free throw line, which is nuts. The Pacers seemed just completely incapable of defending LeBron inside the arc, so why did he stop going there for long stretches of time? It felt to me like LeBron could keep on generating those same looks if he wanted, but stopped doing it for a long period in the second half. He clearly had a great game. Just surprised he didn't push it even further when it was working so well and the game was so important.

I thought the same thing. He wasn't as aggressive on O, especially in the third. However, I figured he was saving some energy for the final stretch in the fourth.

An amazing stat - LeBron has led his team in points, rebounds, AND assists in 61 PLAYOFF games during his career. The next closest player has done that feat 21 times. Unreal

[dudog84]

I thought the same thing. He wasn't as aggressive on O, especially in the third. However, I figured he was saving some energy for the final stretch in the fourth.

An amazing stat - LeBron has led his team in points, rebounds, AND assists in 61 PLAYOFF games during his career. The next closest player has done that feat 21 times. Unreal

It's difficult to compare players (or coaches or teams for that matter) across eras, and recency bias complicates it even more, but when talking about the GOAT it must be done. Seeing stats like this make me think we may be looking at him.

[ncexnyc]

It's difficult to compare players (or coaches or teams for that matter) across eras, and recency bias complicates it even more, but when talking about the GOAT it must be done. Seeing stats like this make me think we may be looking at him.

Especially if he can carry this collection of players to the Finals.

[JNort]

We are -- he's an absolute force of nature. Doesn't change the fact that I came out of the game thinking he could have done even more if he wanted to. :)

Edit: Maybe one way to see it is, if you forget about his 3s, he shot 12/17 with 8/9 from the free throw line, which is nuts. The Pacers seemed just completely incapable of defending LeBron inside the arc, so why did he stop going there for long stretches of time? It felt to me like LeBron could keep on generating those same looks if he wanted, but stopped doing it for a long period in the second half. He clearly had a great game. Just surprised he didn't push it even further when it was working so well and the game was so important.
Look at his fellows from his draft class too. It really puts into perspective how amazing LeBron is. The rest are so broken down and have lost much or all of their abilities. You get the occasional good game from Wade but LeBron still plays like he's in his 20s.

[CDu]

I thought the same thing. He wasn't as aggressive on O, especially in the third. However, I figured he was saving some energy for the final stretch in the fourth.

An amazing stat - LeBron has led his team in points, rebounds, AND assists in 61 PLAYOFF games during his career. The next closest player has done that feat 21 times. Unreal

I think it's worth noting that it takes a lot of energy to beat the defense to the basket when you are the focal point of the defense. While LeBron may make it look easy at times, it is not easy. It takes a toll. He does it probably as much as he can reasonably be expected to do it. While he may seem like a robot with an endless supply of stamina, but it does take a toll to beat really good basketball teams to the basket.

[moonpie23]

lebron is fouled on every move to the basket...

they just won't call em all

[Indoor66]

lebron is fouled on every move to the basket...

they just won't call em all

Everybody gets fouled on every drive to the basket.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Everybody gets fouled on every drive to the basket.

And everyone whines about it.

[Billy Dat]

The old saw of "its not a series until the home team loses a game" is one I often discount, but the turnaround in the Toronto and Boston series took me by surprise. As I stated up-thread, I wasn't ready to anoint the 76ers because I thought it was Toronto's year to break out. We'll see.

As for JJ in the 76ers/Heat series, I love how he helped spring Simmons for his epic dunk in the closing minutes out of this horns set
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF7A0hQih1E&t=9m3s

[Acymetric]

Absolutely. The value of physical play is one NBA role that has remained through the years.

In the past guys like Rodman, Laimbeer, Charles Oakley, Bruce Bowen, and Dahntay Jones showcased the efficacy of physicality.

Today, Draymond, Steven Adams, Patrick Beverley, Dellavedova, and now Justise are some of the best physical players who get in your head. The most successful teams will usually have guys who fill this role.

Dirty players OTOH include Ron Artest (changing name to Metta World Peace didn't change that), Chris Paul, Serge Ibaka, Kelly Olynyk, and Zaza is the worst.

Certainly most of the "physical" players have probably crossed the line at times. And which side of the line the players belong on certainly depends on who you're rooting for. So just my opinion.

Does Robert Horry belong somewhere in this conversation?

[thedukelamere]

Just thought I'd chime in and say that, as good as I'm sure Dolph Schayes was (waaay before my time), JJ wearing #17 looks so unnatural to my brain that it distracts me the entire game... Like if the Mona Lisa was hanging crooked in The Louvre.

[richardjackson199]

You win this round, Mr. Jackson. I'm just surprised the game followed the same script from the two previous games -- Cavs getting out to a big lead, Pacers clawing back. But unlike Game 3, Cleveland made the clutch plays in the final minutes to win. Indiana's nerves at the beginning of the game -- several blown layups -- surprised me a bit. The underdog should play loose!

Thanks! (Lebron should buy me a suit for not betting an actual pie on it). ;) That game could have gone either way and was definitely a pick-em.

I was right on Bogdanovic cooling off a bit. I was wrong in that I thought George Hill would find a way to play with the back spasms.

Lebron had a big first half, so in the 2nd I think he figured they were keying defensive efforts on him and he was trying to get good shots for teammates. And Indiana was cool with making somebody other than Lebron beat them. Thankfully the secondary guys like Korver made just enough shots late in the game. Agree - if Indiana had just played loose like nothing to lose they would have probably come out on top.

2-2. Good series. Cleveland should be ok, but winner of next game should take the series. But Cleveland will need to be much better than this to make NBA Finals this year.

I'd love to see Cleveland-Sixers series and hope we get it!

[kshepinthehouse]

Especially if he can carry this collection of players to the Finals.

Not that hard when you play in the East.

[Troublemaker]

I can't get upset at Thibs for underutilizing Tyus because Rose has played so well. That's surprising.

[LasVegas]

Not that hard when you play in the East.

Not that hard to win a title when you add a top 3 player to a 73 win team...;)