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View Full Version : Kansas and NC State Mentioned in Probe



WVDUKEFAN
04-10-2018, 09:25 PM
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/23107028/prosecutors-add-more-criminal-counts-adidas-executive-fbi-college-basketball-probe

fraggler
04-10-2018, 09:31 PM
Several posts about this in the Yahoo thread

Newton_14
04-10-2018, 09:37 PM
Several posts about this in the Yahoo thread

Agree but this news warrants a new thread and it should have been started when this specific news came out. I have closed the old thread as it was far too long so people who only want to read about the new stuff does have to wade through 24 pages of the old thread to find it.

Folks need to use this thread for posting on the new news.

22JumpShots
04-10-2018, 10:02 PM
All of this news makes me hate a certain school more and more every day.

godins
04-10-2018, 10:07 PM
If true, this would be our second Elite 8 exit in six years at the hands of cheaters (not throwing stones too hard, though, as details could still emerge implicating Duke. I suppose.) De Sousa played 26 minutes and scored 4 points, grabbed 10 rebounds, and blocked one shot in relief of Azubuike.

UrinalCake
04-10-2018, 10:08 PM
Reading through the ESPN article, it looks like the contact was between Adidas representatives/agents and the players while they were in high school, as enticements to attend an Adidas-affliated school. In Kansas's case it sounds like everything was kept from the school and they had no knowledge. They did hold out Billy Preston, who is named, because they thought something was up. They will likely cite that as evidence that they have done everything they can as soon as they were made aware of any potential violations. For Dennis Smith at NC State, the ESPN article says that the money was delivered through an NC State coach, but that it was "concealed from NC State officials." So again, I imagine the school will use that as evidence that they had no knowledge of any wrongdoing.

If payments were made to players prior to them arriving in school, and without the school's knowledge, then it's hard for me to find the schools or coaches to be at fault. I guess you could say that the school is guilty by association because of the agreements they have with Adidas. But I tend to side with the universities in believing their innocence, at least until hearing otherwise. They can't be expected to police every kid that they recruit while they're still in high school. The players would still be ruled ineligible and the teams would have to forfeit those games, but I don't see grounds for additional punishment for the schools if this is indeed how things happened.

ipatent
04-10-2018, 10:15 PM
For Dennis Smith at NC State, the ESPN article says that the money was delivered through an NC State coach, but that it was "concealed from NC State officials."

For criminal purposes under an honest services fraud theory, the university is the victim because it was denied the honest services of player and/or coaches through bribery or other fraud.

For NCAA purposes, the coaching staff is in the loop and their misconduct can lead to sanctions. If a player took money it could lead to sanctions as well, but the school's lack of knowledge may be a mitigating factor.

PackMan97
04-10-2018, 10:35 PM
For NCAA purposes, the coaching staff is in the loop and their misconduct can lead to sanctions. If a player took money it could lead to sanctions as well, but the school's lack of knowledge may be a mitigating factor.

NC State has already taken the proactive step of forfeiting every banner we've won over the past 25 years.

left_hook_lacey
04-10-2018, 10:38 PM
For criminal purposes under an honest services fraud theory, the university is the victim because it was denied the honest services of player and/or coaches through bribery or other fraud.

For NCAA purposes, the coaching staff is in the loop and their misconduct can lead to sanctions. If a player took money it could lead to sanctions as well, but the school's lack of knowledge may be a mitigating factor.

And through the eyes of an NC State fan, they are the victums, because they are egregious cheaters, allegedly, and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

Bob Green
04-11-2018, 04:51 AM
Say it isn't so, State still cheating. I'm shocked, shocked!

Bluedevil114
04-11-2018, 05:55 AM
And through the eyes of an NC State fan, they are the victums, because they are egregious cheaters, allegedly, and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

So you are saying cheaters don’t always win? Maybe take lessons from those 8 miles away.

Spanarkel
04-11-2018, 07:45 AM
And through the eyes of an NC State fan, they are the victums, because they are egregious cheaters, allegedly, and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

I've always wondered IF Norm Sloan and NC State really did anything wrong in the recruitment of DT? What I've read about the NCAA's fault finding sounds really trivial(DT played in a summer basketball camp game with State assistant Eddie Biedenbach(sic) AFTER he had already committed to State).

budwom
04-11-2018, 08:53 AM
I've always wondered IF Norm Sloan and NC State really did anything wrong in the recruitment of DT? What I've read about the NCAA's fault finding sounds really trivial(DT played in a summer basketball camp game with State assistant Eddie Biedenbach(sic) AFTER he had already committed to State).

no, but Duke got probation for buying him a sportcoat, IIRC.

devildeac
04-11-2018, 09:38 AM
I've always wondered IF Norm Sloan and NC State really did anything wrong in the recruitment of DT? What I've read about the NCAA's fault finding sounds really trivial(DT played in a summer basketball camp game with State assistant Eddie Biedenbach(sic) AFTER he had already committed to State).


no, but Duke got probation for buying him a sportcoat, IIRC.

http://www.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/uwire/111607acb.html

"The NCAA violations that led to the team's ineligibility for postseason play stemmed from a few nights Thompson stayed for free in the dorm of some friends working a basketball camp and a pick-up game in which assistant coach Eddie Biedenbach played with Thompson. Thompson said the NCAA treated it like he had been given a tryout."

And guess who reported this to the ncaa? Yep, none other than dean's myth.

http://www.statefansnation.com/2007/09/unc-hoops-breaks-recruiting-rules/#sthash.sxyNt5eA.dpbs

"In 1971/1972, UNC-CH Head Basketball Coach Dean Smith was responsible for reporting NC State to the NCAA because David Thompson – who was already committed to play at NC State – participated in an informal pick-up basketball game on State’s campus that included assistant basketball coach, Eddie Biedenbach. Smith and the NCAA interpreted the game as a ‘tryout’ – despite the fact that Thompson was already enrolling in NC State. The violations led to probation that excluded State from the NCAA Tournament for the 1972-1973 season."

Yep. 9F 'em for another 45 years.

Duke's violations:

https://books.google.com/books?id=WW7EgBfQn_MC&pg=PA348&lpg=PA348&dq=david+thompson+recruiting+violations,+duke&source=bl&ots=n_CKyPhLA2&sig=fAEv12CkG6UIZWAHC9YRFQYNFNM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT4e28qrLaAhUJd98KHVqaClAQ6AEIPjAD#v=on epage&q=david%20thompson%20recruiting%20violations%2C%20 duke&f=false

It's an excerpt from John Roth's book and I'm unable to copy/paste so I'll summarize:

"In the spring of 1971, an unnamed Duke booster took DT to the the ACCT and paid for tickets, room, board and incidentals. A month later, the same supporter took DT to Charlotte and bought him a sport coat, shirt, slacks and a tie."

FerryFor50
04-11-2018, 09:40 AM
I've always wondered IF Norm Sloan and NC State really did anything wrong in the recruitment of DT? What I've read about the NCAA's fault finding sounds really trivial(DT played in a summer basketball camp game with State assistant Eddie Biedenbach(sic) AFTER he had already committed to State).

I think, more recently, the Valvano stuff comes to mind. I'm guessing it gets glossed over a bit because he's been canonized due the Jimmy V foundation and the speech, but he still was believed to be pretty dirty when coaching:

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-12-13/sports/sp-171_1_north-carolina-state

Bluedog
04-11-2018, 09:42 AM
Reading through the ESPN article, it looks like the contact was between Adidas representatives/agents and the players while they were in high school, as enticements to attend an Adidas-affliated school. In Kansas's case it sounds like everything was kept from the school and they had no knowledge. They did hold out Billy Preston, who is named, because they thought something was up. They will likely cite that as evidence that they have done everything they can as soon as they were made aware of any potential violations. For Dennis Smith at NC State, the ESPN article says that the money was delivered through an NC State coach, but that it was "concealed from NC State officials." So again, I imagine the school will use that as evidence that they had no knowledge of any wrongdoing.

If payments were made to players prior to them arriving in school, and without the school's knowledge, then it's hard for me to find the schools or coaches to be at fault. I guess you could say that the school is guilty by association because of the agreements they have with Adidas. But I tend to side with the universities in believing their innocence, at least until hearing otherwise. They can't be expected to police every kid that they recruit while they're still in high school. The players would still be ruled ineligible and the teams would have to forfeit those games, but I don't see grounds for additional punishment for the schools if this is indeed how things happened.

Yep, and this is exactly what Coach K has said with regards to coaches not being able to know EVERYTHING that happens to recruits while they're in high school. He says they can control things a lot better once on campus and you do your due diligence about them as a person ahead of time, but can't monitor every high school player in the country. He has said that's when the issues usually occur because there isn't as much oversight. (And I agree the universities can't be blamed for something like this.)

Truth&Justise
04-11-2018, 11:23 AM
If true, this would be our second Elite 8 exit in six years at the hands of cheaters (not throwing stones too hard, though, as details could still emerge implicating Duke. I suppose.) De Sousa played 26 minutes and scored 4 points, grabbed 10 rebounds, and blocked one shot in relief of Azubuike.

De Sousa scored four points, and we lost by four!! It made all the difference!!

I kid, of course. That's not how a basketball game works--removing him wouldn't mean we automatically win. More to the point, I'm with you that it's best not to throw stones now. There's too much coming out about too many programs which, coupled with our incredible recruiting over the last few years, should make all of us wary that something could be dredged up about Duke players.

proelitedota
04-11-2018, 07:17 PM
I found it fitting that the yahoo thread closed after 666 posts.

Duke95
04-11-2018, 08:29 PM
I see no problem whatsoever with what NCSU or Kansas coaches did as far as paying players. Good on them.

I don't see much of a case here for the FBI.

UrinalCake
04-12-2018, 09:11 AM
I guess I did not realize at first that this new indictment that just game out is a different set of allegations than what was reported by Yahoo a couple months ago. The Yahoo article contained an expense report from agent Andy Miller, in which he lists $43k being paid to Dennis Smith (that was the same expense report that listed a meal with Wendell Carter's family). The more recent indictments from the FBI allege that Adidas executive Jim Gatto provided payments to Smith's family, also in conjunction with Christian Dawkins, some sort of runner who is also linked to Andy Miller. It's a bit confusing but I think I got that straight.

ipatent
04-14-2018, 12:57 AM
Pretty damning article (https://sports.yahoo.com/kansas-playing-victim-recruiting-scandal-rankling-many-college-basketball-204538312.html) on KU by Pat Forde.

Still, the university’s stance was not greeted with great sympathy around a sport where questions have long simmered about the Jayhawks’ recruiting methods.

“Look,” said one prominent veteran head coach, “everyone’s been talking about Kansas for years.”

It’s more than just talk now. When you put the four above player issues together, many people in and around college basketball are questioning the integrity of the Kansas program.

UrinalCake
05-10-2018, 08:57 PM
So now the shoe company Sketchers is suing Adidas, claiming they illegally acquired an unfair advantage in the marketplace by giving money to players and coaches. I wasn't aware that Sketchers is even in the college basketball endorsement market, but they've tossed their hat into the ring and joined this circus. The only thing that would make this story relevant is if they were able to reveal more information about what Adidas has actually done, but based on this ESPN article it sounds like they are simply relying on the information that is already out there.

link (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/23463876/skechers-sues-adidas-false-advertising-unfair-competition-alleged-payments-high-school-college-players)