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awhom111
04-06-2018, 09:36 PM
The full World team was finally announced after plenty of leaking beforehand:
http://nikehoopsummit.com/images/Nike%20Hoop%20Summit%20Team%20Announcement%202018. pdf

R.J. of course will be there along with all of our player on the American side.

Troublemaker
04-11-2018, 10:09 AM
Will post the USA measurements when they become available, but here they are for the World team.

Jonathan Givony‏Verified account @DraftExpress (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress) 14h14 hours ago (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/983864580160897024)
Measurements of the @nikehoopsummit (https://twitter.com/nikehoopsummit) team were released today prior to the evening practice.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DadjnOPX4AAzKPs.jpg

UrinalCake
04-11-2018, 10:12 AM
Is Zion gonna play?

Natty_B
04-11-2018, 10:17 AM
Is Zion gonna play?

No.

https://www.flohoops.com/articles/6170725-zion-williamson-sidelined-for-jordan-brand-classic-nike-hoop-summit

Troublemaker
04-11-2018, 10:20 AM
Is Zion gonna play?

Nope. He's in a cast and will sit out. (https://www.flohoops.com/articles/6170725-zion-williamson-sidelined-for-jordan-brand-classic-nike-hoop-summit) That was expected ever since his thumb grotesquely bent the wrong way in the McDonald's game.

Troublemaker
04-11-2018, 10:29 AM
These twitter posts have some clips of RJ shooting in case anyone's interested (click on the "hours ago"). I believe USA starts practice today, so we'll get more from Tre and Cam later on.


Dave DuFour‏Verified account @DaveDuFourNBA (https://twitter.com/DaveDuFourNBA) 13h13 hours ago (https://twitter.com/DaveDuFourNBA/status/983871223737106432)
2018 number one prospect RJ Barrett is showing off a much smoother jumper than last year. Hitting a ton in warmups. @nikehoopsummit (https://twitter.com/nikehoopsummit)


Mike Schmitz‏Verified account @Mike_Schmitz (https://twitter.com/Mike_Schmitz) 13h13 hours ago (https://twitter.com/Mike_Schmitz/status/983873366783225858)
Potential 2019 #1 pick RJ Barrett getting shots up here in the Trailblazers practice facility. Still working to become a consistent shooter.


HS Basketball BR‏ @HSBasketballBR (https://twitter.com/HSBasketballBR) 10h10 hours ago (https://twitter.com/HSBasketballBR/status/983918231986556928)
NIKE HOOP SUMMIT 2018:

Troublemaker
04-11-2018, 11:07 AM
More RJ from youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f3IWqFGdYg

pfrduke
04-11-2018, 11:32 AM
Will post the USA measurements when they become available, but here they are for the World team.

Jonathan Givony‏Verified account @DraftExpress (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress) 14h14 hours ago (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/983864580160897024)
Measurements of the @nikehoopsummit (https://twitter.com/nikehoopsummit) team were released today prior to the evening practice.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DadjnOPX4AAzKPs.jpg

I'm sure there are body physiology differences I'm not fully appreciating, but I don't understand how Bassey and Dante have the same standing reach when Dante is both slightly taller and has a wider wingspan. Long neck and wide shoulders?

Sir Stealth
04-11-2018, 12:00 PM
I don't know when this started to become the norm at events like this, the draft combine, or wherever, but I think it's pretty weird to measure players in shoes when a typical person's height (such as at a doctor's office) is not measured in shoes. It just creates weird apples to oranges comparisons when assessing how tall someone actually is. Shouldn't the height added by a shoe be uniform, and if not, why would we want the choice of shoe for the measurement to have an effect? If height includes shoes, should weight also include shoes?

JNort
04-11-2018, 12:06 PM
I don't know when this started to become the norm at events like this, the draft combine, or wherever, but I think it's pretty weird to measure players in shoes when a typical person's height (such as at a doctor's office) is not measured in shoes. It just creates weird apples to oranges comparisons when assessing how tall someone actually is. Shouldn't the height added by a shoe be uniform, and if not, why would we want the choice of shoe for the measurement to have an effect? If height includes shoes, should weight also include shoes?
I mean it should be measured in shoes. It's what they play in.

Sir Stealth
04-11-2018, 12:10 PM
I mean it should be measured in shoes. It's what they play in.

All right, so do you think that weight should also include shoes? Should it include a full uniform when they step on the scale?

AGDukesky
04-11-2018, 12:44 PM
I mean it should be measured in shoes. It's what they play in.

Worst argument always made. So should we measure football player height in cleats and helmets? I mean football players play in those. What about hockey players in skates and helmets? Jockeys on horses? Height is a real thing and it does not involve equipment...

Saratoga2
04-11-2018, 01:52 PM
I don't know when this started to become the norm at events like this, the draft combine, or wherever, but I think it's pretty weird to measure players in shoes when a typical person's height (such as at a doctor's office) is not measured in shoes. It just creates weird apples to oranges comparisons when assessing how tall someone actually is. Shouldn't the height added by a shoe be uniform, and if not, why would we want the choice of shoe for the measurement to have an effect? If height includes shoes, should weight also include shoes?

The Chicago pre-NBA draft camp does a good job of covering a lot of measurements for players, including height in stocking feet. Often times the figure given for Duke players in the roster is significantly different. I have learned to live with it as it doesn't matter a lot if the kid can play his position.

Troublemaker
04-12-2018, 04:27 PM
Article from Oregon about our 4 incoming freshmen (http://www.oregonlive.com/hoop-summit/index.ssf/2018/04/future_duke_players_usher_in_n.html). Again, they seem to have a pretty good bond going already.

Troublemaker
04-13-2018, 11:44 AM
So, what is generally considered the most entertaining (and perhaps most informative [within reason]) All-Star game will be played tonight.

USA holds an all-time 14-6 record in this event vs the World Team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Hoop_Summit#Past_games).

I'm going to predict that the World Team gets its winning percentage up to .33333 tonight. The American high school class of 2018 is considered to be pretty weak, and the World Team has RJ while the USA doesn't. That might be enough. We'll see how it goes.

Troublemaker
04-13-2018, 11:03 PM
Halftime. 1st half box score below (courtesy of Cole Zwicker on twitter).

All 3 Dukies that are healthy started. (Zion is sitting out).

The box score is probably a bit misleading. RJ wasn't all that efficient but got some easy stuff in transition. He's so aggressive offensively. Would like to see an outside shot fall. Tre had a very good floor game and played very good defense, which is probably why he has a game-high 18 minutes played, despite modest box score stats. Best U.S. player was Bol Bol, who uses his freakish length to protect the basket.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Datg-wCV4AESPN4.jpg

kAzE
04-13-2018, 11:50 PM
Well, I don't think there should be much debate over who the best player in the country next year will be :)

ncexnyc
04-13-2018, 11:58 PM
After watching the game all I can say is, "Vanna, I'd like to buy a shooter."

RJ played like the Alpha Dog we've been hearing about, but I can promise you that several times next season we'll be saying, "Why on earth did he take that shot." Like a lot of very good players he gets on a roll and for some reason decides he needs to jack-up a three.

Cam had a nice start to the game, but then went AWOL. This seems to be his M.O. and hopefully he won't defer too much once he gets to Duke.

Tre had a so-so game. No bad mistakes, but he really didn't make his teammates better.

I will say this about these three, they all seem to be very willing defenders. So that shouldn't be a major issue next season.

If only someone can find a shooting stroke between now and the start of the season

Troublemaker
04-14-2018, 12:15 AM
Box score here (unless the link changes later on): https://www.fibalivestats.com/u/USAB/863978/bs.html

RJ's passing in the 4th quarter was a key for the World Team, as was their dominant rebounding. RJ really stuffed the box score with 20 points, 9 rebounds, 6 assists (to 2 turnovers), 5 steals

Tre's game fell off a lot in the second half as he took some poor shots but did finish with 5 assists to 0 turnovers. Cam wasn't much of a factor or noticeable.


Jonathan Givony‏Verified account @DraftExpress (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress) 25m25 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/985001827300200449)
R.J. Barrett once again showed he's the cream of the crop of the 2018 high school class when the lights came on. Just wants to rip your heart out every time he steps on the floor. Thought he showed some impressive passing ability today as well.

Listen to Quants
04-14-2018, 12:27 AM
Good to see all three of the Duke guys on the floor at crunch time. Suggest they looked good in the practices which I'd figure were intense.

kAzE
04-14-2018, 12:32 AM
8315

heyman25
04-14-2018, 03:29 AM
Barrett will be a major star! Reddish Jones and Williamson will complement RJ.
I really do not expect Wendell to return. Bolden will emerge next season. Javin needs to work on offense,shooting and finishing. I do hope we add Cremo and O'Connell and Goldwire improve their games.

dukelifer
04-14-2018, 08:58 AM
Box score here (unless the link changes later on): https://www.fibalivestats.com/u/USAB/863978/bs.html

RJ's passing in the 4th quarter was a key for the World Team, as was their dominant rebounding. RJ really stuffed the box score with 20 points, 9 rebounds, 6 assists (to 2 turnovers), 5 steals

Tre's game fell off a lot in the second half as he took some poor shots but did finish with 5 assists to 0 turnovers. Cam wasn't much of a factor or noticeable.


Jonathan Givony‏Verified account @DraftExpress (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress) 25m25 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/985001827300200449)
R.J. Barrett once again showed he's the cream of the crop of the 2018 high school class when the lights came on. Just wants to rip your heart out every time he steps on the floor. Thought he showed some impressive passing ability today as well.

Sadly - none of these guys are effective three point shooters. Barrett and Jones are competitors and will get after it on both ends- so that is a good sign. Reddish has so much potential - but he does not like to exert his will. Maybe that will change but personalities are developed early. K will have work to do. Duke will need shooters and AOC is the best option right now.

budwom
04-14-2018, 09:13 AM
After watching the game all I can say is, "Vanna, I'd like to buy a shooter."

RJ played like the Alpha Dog we've been hearing about, but I can promise you that several times next season we'll be saying, "Why on earth did he take that shot." Like a lot of very good players he gets on a roll and for some reason decides he needs to jack-up a three.

Cam had a nice start to the game, but then went AWOL. This seems to be his M.O. and hopefully he won't defer too much once he gets to Duke.

Tre had a so-so game. No bad mistakes, but he really didn't make his teammates better.

I will say this about these three, they all seem to be very willing defenders. So that shouldn't be a major issue next season.

If only someone can find a shooting stroke between now and the start of the season

yup, we gonna get zoned all day every day.

Saratoga2
04-14-2018, 09:43 AM
RJ is a terrific talent but didn't show 3 point shooting as a strength.

Tre has excellent ball control and will not turn the ball over but his shooting and finishing was not good. He has a lot to do to show improvement.

Reddish has talent but needs to be worked in> His foul shot looks great.

Lot for these guys to work on to realize their full potential for the team.

I hung in there to 11:15 so missed the end of the game.

westwall
04-14-2018, 10:39 AM
After watching the game all I can say is, "Vanna, I'd like to buy a shooter."

If only someone can find a shooting stroke between now and the start of the season

I think Reddish, at least, will be a much better 3 pt shooter than he exhibited last night. Here's a video that includes some 3 pt shots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZaP7PxmICY

Troublemaker
04-14-2018, 10:46 AM
I think Reddish, at least, will be a much better 3 pt shooter than he exhibited last night. Here's a video that includes some 3 pt shots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZaP7PxmICY

Agreed, I wouldn't make too much of one game, especially one in which almost everyone on the court shot horribly. The World Team was 3-17 from three; the USA was 6-22 from three. If all anyone saw was the Duke-Kansas Elite 8 game, for example, they would've thought that Grayson and Gary couldn't shoot.

I think Reddish will be a very good shooter and Barrett will be a good shooter, especially in Duke's system and after working with Duke's coaches. I'm most concerned about Jones' and Williamson's shooting, though.

richardjackson199
04-14-2018, 10:53 AM
Barrett will be a major star! Reddish Jones and Williamson will complement RJ.
I really do not expect Wendell to return. Bolden will emerge next season. Javin needs to work on offense,shooting and finishing. I do hope we add Cremo and O'Connell and Goldwire improve their games.

Stop hoping. Cremo is no longer considering Duke on his list.

Barrett was all over the place last night, just willing his team to a victory. He wasn't shooting well from deep, but was getting to the rim, getting out in transition, and assisting teammates.

The US Team had spurts, but the pieces didn't fit as well together. They weren't even close to making the game interesting in winning time.

Bol Bol to me had the most impressive pro talent potential on the floor. He was incredible, blocking everything. He jumps off the floor instantly, and starts off at 7'2". He has serious Dikembe Mutombo type rim protection, or maybe eventually better. He had great hands and finished quickly.

Grimes could be scary good, but also jacked up some bad shots rather than moving the ball. Cole Swider really shoots well, is tough inside, is confident, plays smart, and will fit right in at Nova.

Darius Garland also outplayed Tre Jones substantially. Garland was hitting his shot. Tre played hard, but didn't shoot well and didn't seem all that effective. Fran Fraschilla was basicallly taking shots at future and former Duke players all night, and said about 100 times he thought Garland was a better point guard than Jones and should be ranked higher. Paul Biancardi called him on it, letting him know that Fran had watched Garland about twice, and Biancardi had see them both about 100 times. Biancardi said Jones plays hard on both ends all the time and that he stands by his rankings that Tre is better. Reddish had a couple of nice iso plays, but otherwise was completely awful. He just didn't get in the flow of the game or really help his team.

As stated ad nauseum; all of our 4 Kill4s need to work on outside shooting and be getting about 1000 shots up a day. AOC should also plan to be a huge contributor next year, we're going to need him.

Way too early Final 4 Prediction now based on what I've seen so far - Villanova; UNCheat; Kansas; and Gonzaga (where some key guys opted to return to school over NBA). Barrett looks like a monster, but unless Carter surprises with a miracle decision, I think Duke's youth does them in again and that we take a step backward next year. The good news is that my powers of prediction are usually about as accurate as a 10 yo playing jeopardy. I haven't been getting fat on pie. Keeping expectations very low, and hoping for the best! :cool:

The most impressive recruits from these games to me have been Nas Little, Emmitt Williams, (both didn't play last night), Barrett, and Bol Bol.

Natty_B
04-14-2018, 11:04 AM
Stop hoping. Cremo is no longer considering Duke on his list.

Barrett was all over the place last night, just willing his team to a victory. He wasn't shooting well from deep, but was getting to the rim, getting out in transition, and assisting teammates.

The US Team had spurts, but the pieces didn't fit as well together. They weren't even close to making the game interesting in winning time.

Bol Bol to me had the most impressive pro talent potential on the floor. He was incredible, blocking everything. He jumps off the floor instantly, and starts off at 7'2". He has serious Dikembe Mutombo type rim protection, or maybe eventually better. He had great hands and finished quickly.

Grimes could be scary good, but also jacked up some bad shots rather than moving the ball. Cole Swider really shoots well, is tough inside, is confident, plays smart, and will fit right in at Nova.

Darius Garland also outplayed Tre Jones substantially. Garland was hitting his shot. Tre played hard, but didn't shoot well and didn't seem all that effective. Fran Fraschilla was basicallly taking shots at future and former Duke players all night, and said about 100 times he thought Garland was a better point guard than Jones and should be ranked higher. Paul Biancardi called him on it, letting him know that Fran had watched Garland about twice, and Biancardi had see them both about 100 times. Biancardi said Jones plays hard on both ends all the time and that he stands by his rankings that Tre is better. Reddish had a couple of nice iso plays, but otherwise was completely awful. He just didn't get in the flow of the game or really help his team.

As stated ad nauseum; all of our 4 Kill4s need to work on outside shooting and be getting about 1000 shots up a day. AOC should also plan to be a huge contributor next year, we're going to need him.

Way too early Final 4 Prediction now based on what I've seen so far - Villanova; UNCheat; Kansas; and Gonzaga (where some key guys opted to return to school over NBA). Barrett looks like a monster, but unless Carter surprises with a miracle decision, I think Duke's youth does them in again and that we take a step backward next year. The good news is that my powers of prediction are usually about as accurate as a 10 yo playing jeopardy. I haven't been getting fat on pie. Keeping expectations very low, and hoping for the best! :cool:

The most impressive recruits from these games to me have been Nas Little, Emmitt Williams, (both didn't play last night), Barrett, and Bol Bol.

Do we all still have shell shock from UNC making deep runs a few years back? They lost in the round of 32 this year finished 6th in the ACC and lost their two most vital players. I’m not putting them in any FF projections.

richardjackson199
04-14-2018, 11:27 AM
Do we all still have shell shock from UNC making deep runs a few years back? They lost in the round of 32 this year finished 6th in the ACC and lost their two most vital players. I’m not putting them in any FF projections.

I hate the Cheats as much as anybody. For the last few years they've lost their most vital players. But they've played in the Championship game 2 out of the last 3 years despite a few years of not being able to recruit any 5 stars. Because for whatever lucky reason, they've gotten old (experienced), stayed old, and next year they're replacing Pinson/Berry with 2 extremely impressive 5-star guys who look even more talented.

After last year's Cheats lost Tony Bradley, Justin Jackson, Meeks, and Hicks I thought there was no way they would be able to play with who we were bringing in. We had the best bigs we've ever had, and we had a complete team. Roy relies on quality bigs and they were all gone. And Roy carved up our zone like turkey on Thanksgiving. We lost 2/3 to the Cheats this year, and pretty convincingly. This year's Cheats team lost 2 vital players. Duke lost all our vital starting 5 players. We're bringing in 4 studs. They're bringing in 2 studs. But they bring back Maye, Cam Johnson, and Kenny Williams.

K has owned Roy before when the Cheats were good. So hopefully he will again. But I think he will really have his work cut out for him with this much raw youth. Keeping it real, I'm not underestimating the cheats next year given everybody we're losing. I project Duke to finish 3rd in next year's ACC race. But I've been wrong before! ;)

ncexnyc
04-14-2018, 11:29 AM
Do we all still have shell shock from UNC making deep runs a few years back? They lost in the round of 32 this year finished 6th in the ACC and lost their two most vital players. I’m not putting them in any FF projections.

Unfortunately, UNCheat is like Dracula. No matter how many times they get staked through the heart they keep coming back. I also wouldn't put much stock into their so-called 6th place finish as that was based on tie breakers, they actually won more games than all of those other teams they were bunched with.

As much as I hate to say it, since everyone starts from scratch next season, I'd say they have just as much of a chance to make it to a Final Four as we do.

Natty_B
04-14-2018, 11:58 AM
Unfortunately, UNCheat is like Dracula. No matter how many times they get staked through the heart they keep coming back. I also wouldn't put much stock into their so-called 6th place finish as that was based on tie breakers, they actually won more games than all of those other teams they were bunched with.

As much as I hate to say it, since everyone starts from scratch next season, I'd say they have just as much of a chance to make it to a Final Four as we do.

But they did finish in 6th. They did lose three in a row in the ACC. They did get waxed in the round of 32. They are losing their final group of five Star dudes who somehow stayed for years and their big recruit from last year was kicked off the team. Sometimes Roy has unimpressive teams and I think next year will be one. But we will see.

Troublemaker
04-14-2018, 12:12 PM
I bet World Team Coach Rana wishes he could coach RJ every year. Gotta think RJ, who led the team in assists, was on Rana's mind with these quotes (http://www.oregonlive.com/hoop-summit/index.ssf/2018/04/rj_barrett_powers_world_to_89-.html):


"Their willingness to share the ball is what defined this team," Rana said. "When your best players are willing to give it up to make others successful, it says a lot. That was really on display today. It was a beautiful game."

<snip>

"This is my eighth Hoop Summit and I've never been around a better group from a character perspective," Rana said. "This is a team I'll treasure for a long time."

CDu
04-14-2018, 12:19 PM
But they did finish in 6th. They did lose three in a row in the ACC. They did get waxed in the round of 32. They are losing their final group of five Star dudes who somehow stayed for years and their big recruit from last year was kicked off the team. Sometimes Roy has unimpressive teams and I think next year will be one. But we will see.

I think they will be a bit worse than what they were last year, assuming Little isn’t deemed ineligible. They trade 5-star seniors for 5-star freshmen, and freshmen often struggle. Plus, they now have no PG (White is a scorer not a PG) whereas last year they had two (Berry and Pinson). They also lost their best, most versatile defender (Pinson) from a mediocre defensive team.

Their schedule should be easier, which will offset the loss of experience. But I thought this was a Sweet-16 type team, and I think next year’s team will be a round of 32 or Sweet 16 type of team.

TruBlu
04-14-2018, 12:51 PM
Unfortunately, UNCheat is like Dracula.

. . . without any of Dracula’s redeeming social qualities.

JasonEvans
04-14-2018, 01:27 PM
This thread is most assuredly not the place to get sidetracked into a UNC 2018-19 discussion, but I would merely add that they will really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really miss Theo Pinson. Dude was arguably the most complete player in the ACC last season and he made both their offense and their defense work. Not easy to replace a dud elike that, even if you are bringing in an apparent stud like Nassir Little.

Saratoga2
04-14-2018, 02:45 PM
Unfortunately, UNCheat is like Dracula. No matter how many times they get staked through the heart they keep coming back. I also wouldn't put much stock into their so-called 6th place finish as that was based on tie breakers, they actually won more games than all of those other teams they were bunched with.

As much as I hate to say it, since everyone starts from scratch next season, I'd say they have just as much of a chance to make it to a Final Four as we do.


Did I see Meeks is not going to play in the NBA finals due to taking a banned substance? Is this the UNC Meeks and if so was he taking substances during his college days? What is the NCAA doing to check college players for banned substances? I haven't heard much about that.

My bad, it was Jodie Meeks, a former Kentucky player. The other questions of drug policy enforcement by the nCAA is still of interesst to me.

richardjackson199
04-14-2018, 02:47 PM
Not Cheats Kennedy Meeks. This was Jodie Meeks. Different Meeks and different Cheats.

ipatent
04-14-2018, 02:51 PM
Did I see Meeks is not going to play in the NBA finals due to taking a banned substance? Is this the UNC Meeks and if so was he taking substances during his college days? What is the NCAA doing to check college players for banned substances? I haven't heard much about that.

My bad, it was Jodie Meeks, a former Kentucky player. The other questions of drug policy enforcement by the nCAA is still of interesst to me.

It is former UK player Jodie Meeks.

proelitedota
04-14-2018, 03:10 PM
Reddish looked really outclassed last night. Hope he bounces back.


I think we need to use the once every four years trip opportunity to get some extra practice time for our incoming class.

kAzE
04-14-2018, 03:25 PM
Reddish looked really outclassed last night. Hope he bounces back.


I think we need to use the once every four years trip opportunity to get some extra practice time for our incoming class.

I wouldn't worry about it too much (although you'd like to see Cam show a bit more fight after a bad 1st half), RJ Barrett usually does this to the guy he's matched up against. He can really play some shut down defense. It's not a surprise at all that every time RJ has matched up with Cam, Cam has struggled.

There aren't a whole lot of guys with the length and quickness to contain Cam, and even if we are playing against such a guy, he's probably going to be guarding RJ.

ncexnyc
04-14-2018, 06:34 PM
Did I see Meeks is not going to play in the NBA finals due to taking a banned substance? Is this the UNC Meeks and if so was he taking substances during his college days? What is the NCAA doing to check college players for banned substances? I haven't heard much about that.

My bad, it was Jodie Meeks, a former Kentucky player. The other questions of drug policy enforcement by the nCAA is still of interesst to me.

The only substances Kennedy Meeks abused during his stay at UNC were Twinkies, Little Debbies, and of course Krispy Kreme donuts.

whereinthehellami
04-14-2018, 06:51 PM
Barrett is a winner. He is the type of player that will be able to score on a zone with dribble drives. He is a fearless, relentless driver with good handles and amazing body control. I don't see him having a consistent 3 in college though.

I like Jones's game and think that he is the type of pg that Duke needs next year, if he only had a respectable 3. But he is a two way leader and is always looking to setup his teammates.

Reddish just doesn't have any junk yard dog in him. Tons of talent and potential but at this time a complimentary player. I think he will be a streaky shooter also. Should be a good defender with his physical talents but has a long way to go on that side of the ball.

I'm in the camp of more of the same for Duke next year. I'm looking forward to the journey though.

godins
04-14-2018, 07:47 PM
Barrett is a winner. He is the type of player that will be able to score on a zone with dribble drives. He is a fearless, relentless driver with good handles and amazing body control. I don't see him having a consistent 3 in college though.

I like Jones's game and think that he is the type of pg that Duke needs next year, if he only had a respectable 3. But he is a two way leader and is always looking to setup his teammates.

Reddish just doesn't have any junk yard dog in him. Tons of talent and potential but at this time a complimentary player. I think he will be a streaky shooter also. Should be a good defender with his physical talents but has a long way to go on that side of the ball.

I'm in the camp of more of the same for Duke next year. I'm looking forward to the journey though.

I advise strongly against extrapolating about abilities, roles, and narratives for next year based on three glorified pick-up high school pickup games. In past years our recruits have been a mixed bag in these games. Just last year Gary Trent Jr. was 2-10 from 3PT range in all three games and yet he shot 40% as a freshman this year from distance. Wendell Carter Jr. was a "complementary" player in these games and was a dominant force inside for us. The truth is, these games tell us next to nothing about what these guys will be for Duke.

I know that scouts have dogged Reddish in their reports for his motor, so I'm not dismissing your "junkyard dog" label. But here are several examples of the Cam Reddish I expect will be suiting up for the Devils next year: here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IWVYJevEBE), here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrV0iRiz9sw&t=274s), and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PttDT2182us)

dukelion
04-14-2018, 08:40 PM
I don't think people realize how good Barrett is gonna be. He'll be better than Jabari, Ingram and even Bagely.

Cam and Zion are studs as well and with Barrett as the alpha dog they'll be unbelievable complimentary players.

Tre will be a solid pg as a freshmen but like everyone else has mentioned I worry abut his 3pt shot. I also just can't see him as a one and done. He's definitely an NBA player but not until he gets a jumper.

awhom111
04-14-2018, 08:42 PM
Did I see Meeks is not going to play in the NBA finals due to taking a banned substance? Is this the UNC Meeks and if so was he taking substances during his college days? What is the NCAA doing to check college players for banned substances? I haven't heard much about that.

My bad, it was Jodie Meeks, a former Kentucky player. The other questions of drug policy enforcement by the nCAA is still of interesst to me.

Kennedy Meeks did get ejected from the last game of the G League Finals so his playoffs were not so great.

Mitch McGary is not a fan of NCAA drug enforcement. Or any drug enforcement really.


I bet World Team Coach Rana wishes he could coach RJ every year. Gotta think RJ, who led the team in assists, was on Rana's mind with these quotes (http://www.oregonlive.com/hoop-summit/index.ssf/2018/04/rj_barrett_powers_world_to_89-.html):


"Their willingness to share the ball is what defined this team," Rana said. "When your best players are willing to give it up to make others successful, it says a lot. That was really on display today. It was a beautiful game."

<snip>

"This is my eighth Hoop Summit and I've never been around a better group from a character perspective," Rana said. "This is a team I'll treasure for a long time."

Clearly Rana was just sending a message that he would have beaten the US U19 team by more last year if he also had Nembhard and Brazdeikis. Good thing Calipari made sure that Shai Gilgeous-Alexander was not available to embarrass him further.

It would actually be interesting to me if an American college ever tried to pursue Rana or Canada's Women's National Team coach Lisa Thomaidis. Both would have plenty of international connections and they already recruit as college coaches so they would be familiar with it even in a different system.

UrinalCake
04-14-2018, 08:45 PM
Kennedy Meeks did get ejected from the last game of the G League Finals so his playoffs were not so great.

Wait a minute, you're telling me that a former McDonald's All-American spent four years at UNC-CHeat and is now relegated to the G-League? That's impossible. Everyone tells me that Roy is the best in the world at developing big men and infallible when it comes to turning no-named scrubs into NBA All-Stars.

ncexnyc
04-14-2018, 08:56 PM
Glad I've been keeping track of this thread.

We've already had one prediction that RJ is going to have a better season than MBIII did, but now add Cam to the list of players who are going to have better seasons than MBIII did.

It won't be long before someone claims we are going undefeated next year.:D

godins
04-14-2018, 10:38 PM
Glad I've been keeping track of this thread.

We've already had one prediction that RJ is going to have a better season than MBIII did, but now add Cam to the list of players who are going to have better seasons than MBIII did.

It won't be long before someone claims we are going undefeated next year.:D

I missed the part where folks also said Cam would have a better season than MBIII. Sarcasm?

If you give me 365:1 odds for a pie bet on Duke going undefeated I'll take it. A pie a day keeps the doctor away!

UrinalCake
04-14-2018, 11:08 PM
Barrett highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p2egoyVZD0) from the game. He did appear to do most of his work in transition, and of course attacking the rim. As the announcers say, his outside shot is very much a work in progress.

Furniture
04-15-2018, 12:21 AM
I like Jones's game and think that he is the type of pg that Duke needs next year, if he only had a respectable 3.

I really hope this kid doesn’t get the DBR Tre Duval curse. God help him.

CDu
04-15-2018, 07:58 AM
Barrett highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p2egoyVZD0) from the game. He did appear to do most of his work in transition, and of course attacking the rim. As the announcers say, his outside shot is very much a work in progress.

Yeeesh, that shooting is... not very good. He banked a free throw. All but one of his baskets came within 2 feet of the rim.

He is a phenomenal competitor, great athlete, and strong finisher in the lane. But as you mentioned, he has a long way to go as a shooter.

dukelifer
04-15-2018, 08:16 AM
Yeeesh, that shooting is... not very good. He banked a free throw. All but one of his baskets came within 2 feet of the rim.

He is a phenomenal competitor, great athlete, and strong finisher in the lane. But as you mentioned, he has a long way to go as a shooter.

The NBA is all about shooting. Barrett has to develop an strong outside game or he will just be another guy in the league. He doesn’t have a fluid jumper right now- so this will take a lot of time. Barrett will have his way in college attacking the rim but he has to work on his shot if he want to be among the NBA top players.

lotusland
04-15-2018, 10:08 AM
It’s curious that top guard/wing players seem to struggle with shooting considering the emphasis on 3-pt shooting in the NBA these days. You’d think guys focused on making it in the NBA would work on their shooting all along. Maybe Duval, Reddish, Barrett and Williamson are outliers.

CDu
04-15-2018, 10:29 AM
It’s curious that top guard/wing players seem to struggle with shooting considering the emphasis on 3-pt shooting in the NBA these days. You’d think guys focused on making it in the NBA would work on their shooting all along. Maybe Duval, Reddish, Barrett and Williamson are outliers.

I think Reddish actually has a decent shooting stroke. But Barrett’s shot looks very... umm... work in progressy. I have no doubt he is working hard on it. But it has a long way to go to become a weapon.

To some degree I suspect that guys who are extremely effective going to the basket are more likely to be less developed as shooters. It is rare that a guy is really well-developed at both.

budwom
04-15-2018, 10:34 AM
It’s curious that top guard/wing players seem to struggle with shooting considering the emphasis on 3-pt shooting in the NBA these days. You’d think guys focused on making it in the NBA would work on their shooting all along. Maybe Duval, Reddish, Barrett and Williamson are outliers.

I suspect that part of it is that at the high school level, kids of that size can simply get to the basket any time they want.

dukelifer
04-15-2018, 11:43 AM
I suspect that part of it is that at the high school level, kids of that size can simply get to the basket any time they want.

But their goal as a profession demands shooting. I will never understand why these kids do not spend more time on their shooting particularly from the line.

budwom
04-15-2018, 11:51 AM
But their goal as a profession demands shooting. I will never understand why these kids do not spend more time on their shooting particularly from the line.

Can't dispute that...just noting that if you're 6-8 in high school and can put the ball on the floor, things come pretty easily even without shooting.
Zion is probably the best example of a kid who hasn't developed much of a stroke because he can knock everyone around like pinballs at the HS level.

flyingdutchdevil
04-15-2018, 12:32 PM
I think Reddish actually has a decent shooting stroke. But Barrett’s shot looks very... umm... work in progressy. I have no doubt he is working hard on it. But it has a long way to go to become a weapon.

To some degree I suspect that guys who are extremely effective going to the basket are more likely to be less developed as shooters. It is rare that a guy is really well-developed at both.

Yup. Reddish isn’t Luke Kennard good or even Gary Trent good, but he’s got a very solid shot.

Our other three players are average - at best - at shooting. I don’t think we have any Duvals, but we don’t have any Graysons/Trents either.

CajunDevil
04-15-2018, 03:55 PM
Let’s stop being silly. R.J. will be a 10x All-Star in NBA. He won’t be just another guy. He has excellent shooting mechanics and a very solid midrange game. His long-range game will develop with reps. For those hyperventilating, relax.

lotusland
04-15-2018, 06:22 PM
Let’s stop being silly. R.J. will be a 10x All-Star in NBA. He won’t be just another guy. He has excellent shooting mechanics and a very solid midrange game. His long-range game will develop with reps. For those hyperventilating, relax.

I don’t actually care what he does in the NBA as I most likely won’t be watching. Duke needs more shooting for spacing next year. I doubt he’s going to be a good shooter by November if he’s below average for a guard now. I have no doubt he’ll be good but, for the record, I predicted Barrett’s OAD year will be less impactful than Bags. But Bags was ACC POY so I’m not really going too far out on a limb.

kAzE
04-15-2018, 06:44 PM
I don’t actually care what he does in the NBA as I most likely won’t be watching. Duke needs more shooting for spacing next year. I doubt he’s going to be a good shooter by November if he’s below average for a guard now. I have no doubt he’ll be good but, for the record, I predicted Barrett’s OAD year will be less impactful than Bags. But Bags was ACC POY so I’m not really going too far out on a limb.

Are we only going by awards for impact? I think RJ has a chance to take us pretty deep in the NCAA tournament. That's where his athleticism and scoring is going to help us improve upon what we did this year. Bagley, as good as he is, is still a big man. Opponents can deny him the ball, and they can harrass him when he's trying to catch the ball. Guards do the ball handling, and guards are the player who decide how successful you are in the NCAA tournament. RJ's also a MUCH better defensive player than Bagley.

I think regardless of what awards RJ wins (and IMO he's as strong a candidate for ACC POY as anyone in the league), I think he's the type of player who can take a team to the Final Four as a freshman.

dukelifer
04-15-2018, 06:52 PM
Let’s stop being silly. R.J. will be a 10x All-Star in NBA. He won’t be just another guy. He has excellent shooting mechanics and a very solid midrange game. His long-range game will develop with reps. For those hyperventilating, relax.

So you are projecting him to be an NBA Hall of Famer? Wow. Fellow Canadian and Uber athletic Andrew Wiggins has been in the league for 4 years and has not made a All Star roster. Barrett will learn to shoot at some point- but it will take a ton of work.

CDu
04-15-2018, 07:01 PM
Let’s stop being silly. R.J. will be a 10x All-Star in NBA. He won’t be just another guy. He has excellent shooting mechanics and a very solid midrange game. His long-range game will develop with reps. For those hyperventilating, relax.

I am not worried about him being an excellent player for Duke. He will be. But I definitely wouldn’t say he has excellent shooting mechanics. It is - along with being a bit of a high-dribbler - one of his only flaws offensively. Shooting is quite simply not a strength for him at this time.

That can be okay, though. He is a really competitive guy and has great scoring instincts. He is sble to impact the game a ton even without a jumper. But to say he has excellent shooting mechanics at this point is just not accurate.

Troublemaker
04-15-2018, 07:46 PM
Cole Zwicker‏Verified account @colezwicker (https://twitter.com/colezwicker) 4h4 hours ago (https://twitter.com/colezwicker/status/985597645329608705)
Measurements for the US team at Hoop Summit


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Da2Lu9nUQAAoRG7.jpg

luvdahops
04-15-2018, 07:50 PM
Yup. Reddish isn’t Luke Kennard good or even Gary Trent good, but he’s got a very solid shot.

Our other three players are average - at best - at shooting. I don’t think we have any Duvals, but we don’t have any Graysons/Trents either.

Others have mentioned this before, but Reddish reminds me a lot of Grant Hill as an incoming frosh - very athletic, skilled and versatile, but perhaps too unselfish and passive at times. Though I have confidence in K's ability to bring Cam out of his "shell". His shooting form does look solid, even if the jumpers weren't falling in the NHS.

Billy Dat
04-15-2018, 08:00 PM
The few times I have watched Barrett, he has that intangible quality of a winner, a guy who wants to be part of the big plays and take the big shots. In his case, I see it as a strong positive. He really leads by example and I think will be a key focus of our offense in the same manner as Bagley, Tatum and Ingram.

I echo other thoughts about Reddish, he does not "jump off the screen" in the same manner as Barrett. The tag of him coasting seems apt, but he also has verbally identified that as a weakness that he wants to work on, so that's good.

Jones looks like a pass first point guard, check that important box.

The Duke Zone has really become a negative when the arena is recruiting and these high school all star games. Fran Fraschilla, who I think deliberately finds subtle ways to tweak Duke, said something like, "With the length, athleticism and defense mentality of these kids, maybe Duke can ditch the zone and get back to playing man-2-man defense next year".

dukelifer
04-15-2018, 08:19 PM
The few times I have watched Barrett, he has that intangible quality of a winner, a guy who wants to be part of the big plays and take the big shots. In his case, I see it as a strong positive. He really leads by example and I think will be a key focus of our offense in the same manner as Bagley, Tatum and Ingram.

I echo other thoughts about Reddish, he does not "jump off the screen" in the same manner as Barrett. The tag of him coasting seems apt, but he also has verbally identified that as a weakness that he wants to work on, so that's good.

Jones looks like a pass first point guard, check that important box.

The Duke Zone has really become a negative when the arena is recruiting and these high school all star games. Fran Fraschilla, who I think deliberately finds subtle ways to tweak Duke, said something like, "With the length, athleticism and defense mentality of these kids, maybe Duke can ditch the zone and get back to playing man-2-man defense next year".

I agree that Barrett wants to be great and from all indications will put in the work. Grant got a shot doctor and it helped his game. Barrett needs one to get to the next level.

lotusland
04-15-2018, 08:30 PM
Are we only going by awards for impact? I think RJ has a chance to take us pretty deep in the NCAA tournament. That's where his athleticism and scoring is going to help us improve upon what we did this year. Bagley, as good as he is, is still a big man. Opponents can deny him the ball, and they can harrass him when he's trying to catch the ball. Guards do the ball handling, and guards are the player who decide how successful you are in the NCAA tournament. RJ's also a MUCH better defensive player than Bagley.

I think regardless of what awards RJ wins (and IMO he's as strong a candidate for ACC POY as anyone in the league), I think he's the type of player who can take a team to the Final Four as a freshman.

I haven’t seen Barrett play at all. I’m sure he’ll be great. It’s just going to be hard to out perform Bags. Jabari and Jah were awesome by any standard. Tatum, Ingram, Deng, Winslow and Tyus were great too. Barrett could be better than all of them and still fall short of Bagley’s performance. I’m just taking the odds picking Barrett to fall short of Bags.

CajunDevil
04-15-2018, 08:59 PM
I am not worried about him being an excellent player for Duke. He will be. But I definitely wouldn’t say he has excellent shooting mechanics. It is - along with being a bit of a high-dribbler - one of his only flaws offensively. Shooting is quite simply not a strength for him at this time.

That can be okay, though. He is a really competitive guy and has great scoring instincts. He is sble to impact the game a ton even without a jumper. But to say he has excellent shooting mechanics at this point is just not accurate.

He was wildly off in Portland, no doubt, and his shot didn't look as good as it did the week before playing for Montverde - when he hit a couple of threes. The impression I get from this board is that his shot is absurdly broken... and that's simply not the case. I do think his mechanics are very solid (excellent may be slightly hyperbolic and perhaps we save that for Redick). High release, elbow is aligned, on balance and square (for most of his 3s I've seen). His mid-range game is quite good. I think he just needs reps on his distance j. Now, whether he will be able to establish a consistent 3 this season... we all hope so. I think he will be mid-30% from 3 by the end of the year.

To an earlier post about being a HOFer. Yes, RJ could be that good. He will be a much better pro than Wiggins, imo, bc of his vastly superior court vision, and innate scoring ability. Barrett's may be a little less athletic than Wiggins, but he is still an elite athlete.

dukelifer
04-15-2018, 09:29 PM
He was wildly off in Portland, no doubt, and his shot didn't look as good as it did the week before playing for Montverde - when he hit a couple of threes. The impression I get from this board is that his shot is absurdly broken... and that's simply not the case. I do think his mechanics are very solid (excellent may be slightly hyperbolic and perhaps we save that for Redick). High release, elbow is aligned, on balance and square (for most of his 3s I've seen). His mid-range game is quite good. I think he just needs reps on his distance j. Now, whether he will be able to establish a consistent 3 this season... we all hope so. I think he will be mid-30% from 3 by the end of the year.

To an earlier post about being a HOFer. Yes, RJ could be that good. He will be a much better pro than Wiggins, imo, bc of his vastly superior court vision, and innate scoring ability. Barrett's may be a little less athletic than Wiggins, but he is still an elite athlete.
Wiggins was NBA Rookie of the year and has averaged close to 20ppg over his first 4 years. Even James Harden did not do that. I guess in 5 years we will know what kind of NBA player Barrett will be.

Kedsy
04-15-2018, 10:09 PM
Cole Zwicker‏Verified account @colezwicker (https://twitter.com/colezwicker) 4h4 hours ago (https://twitter.com/colezwicker/status/985597645329608705)
Measurements for the US team at Hoop Summit


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Da2Lu9nUQAAoRG7.jpg

For those worrying that we won't be long enough to play zone next year, note Cam Reddish's measurements: 6'9 (in shoes), 7'0 wingspan, 8'10 standing reach -- wingspan and standing reach about the same as Marvin Bagley's (although a couple inches shorter).

proelitedota
04-15-2018, 10:22 PM
For those worrying that we won't be long enough to play zone next year, note Cam Reddish's measurements: 6'9 (in shoes), 7'0 wingspan, 8'10 standing reach -- wingspan and standing reach about the same as Marvin Bagley's (although a couple inches shorter).

My god he should swap height and wingspan with Zion.

Imagine instead...

Zion: 6'9.5 (in own shoes), 7'0 wingspan, 250 lbs.
Reddish: 6'6.5 (in own shoes), 6'10 wingspan, 205 lbs.
Barret: 6'6.5 (in own shoes), 6'9 wingspan, 208 lbs.

No reason not to play small ball with Zion at 5, and AOC for extended minutes.

whereinthehellami
04-16-2018, 08:22 AM
I advise strongly against extrapolating about abilities, roles, and narratives for next year based on three glorified pick-up high school pickup games. In past years our recruits have been a mixed bag in these games. Just last year Gary Trent Jr. was 2-10 from 3PT range in all three games and yet he shot 40% as a freshman this year from distance. Wendell Carter Jr. was a "complementary" player in these games and was a dominant force inside for us. The truth is, these games tell us next to nothing about what these guys will be for Duke.

I know that scouts have dogged Reddish in their reports for his motor, so I'm not dismissing your "junkyard dog" label. But here are several examples of the Cam Reddish I expect will be suiting up for the Devils next year: here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IWVYJevEBE), here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrV0iRiz9sw&t=274s), and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PttDT2182us)

It is not an extrapolation based on three glorified pick-up games. I followed his high school season also. His HS team went 20-12, this past year. I can't remember the last time a top 10 RSCI guy was on a HS team that lost more than 10 games.

godins
04-16-2018, 08:47 AM
It is not an extrapolation based on three glorified pick-up games. I followed his high school season also. His HS team went 20-12, this past year. I can't remember the last time a top 10 RSCI guy was on a HS team that lost more than 10 games.

Fantastic, I'm glad you've put in the time to keep up with the recruits. Perhaps we can agree there's a lot of armchair scouting on these guys before they've even stepped foot on campus. These narratives crystallize, in some cases (re: Duval, Trevon), by the first exhibition games. There are numerous examples on this thread -- and others across DBR -- of posters drifting into speculative territory about Cam Reddish's motor and effort on the court. Largely driven, I suspect, by the NBA scouting reports available online. Please read this article, folks, from Reddish's coach if you need convincing that Cam Reddish is a top-notch, hard-working individual who will give maximum effort with the Duke jersey on: https://www.si.com/high-school/2018/03/07/we-town-documentary-sitv-westtown-mo-bamba-seth-berger

Also, the answer to your question is last year. Mitchell Robinson (RSCI 8) led Chalmette High School (LA) to a 25-11 record. (http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/chalmette-owls-(chalmette,la)/basketball-winter-16-17/schedule.htm)

Troublemaker
04-16-2018, 10:09 AM
FYI, Sam Vecenie and Cole Zwicker break down some Hoop Summit players at the end of their latest Game Theory Podcast.

If you have it downloaded, the Hoop Summit stuff starts just after 1 hour, 22 minutes into the pod.

They rave about RJ, fyi.

https://gametheorysam.libsyn.com/nba-playoffs-first-weekend-breakdown-hoop-summit-scouting

CDu
04-16-2018, 10:51 AM
FYI, Sam Vecenie and Cole Zwicker break down some Hoop Summit players at the end of their latest Game Theory Podcast.

If you have it downloaded, the Hoop Summit stuff starts just after 1 hour, 22 minutes into the pod.

They rave about RJ, fyi.

https://gametheorysam.libsyn.com/nba-playoffs-first-weekend-breakdown-hoop-summit-scouting

Thanks for linking. Yeesh, not a very positive review for the incoming class overall.

Key takeaways from a Duke perspective:
- It's a very weak class compared to last year
- Barrett is the best player in the class
- Reddish is probably the most talented player in the class, but has real concerns about his effort/intensity (both guys were very disappointed in him)
- Jones should be a solid college PG, smart player, a lot like Tyus was, but probably not as good a shooter as Tyus
- They said that Collin Sexton might have been the third best player if he were in this class instead of last year's class, and that nobody expect maybe Barrett would compare with Bagley and Ayton. Jaren Jackson Jr was noted as a #1 or #2 if he'd been in this class.

Other takeaways of note:
- Nassir Little was considered a top-2 or top-3 prospect (Williamson got some love as well here) in the class

It seems like getting Reddish dialed in is going to be a real key to this coming season. If he can unlock his motivation, we'll have the two best players in the class. But that appears to be a big if right now.

flyingdutchdevil
04-16-2018, 11:27 AM
Thanks for linking. Yeesh, not a very positive review for the incoming class overall.

Key takeaways from a Duke perspective:
- It's a very weak class compared to last year
- Barrett is the best player in the class
- Reddish is probably the most talented player in the class, but has real concerns about his effort/intensity (both guys were very disappointed in him)
- Jones should be a solid college PG, smart player, a lot like Tyus was, but probably not as good a shooter as Tyus
- They said that Collin Sexton might have been the third best player if he were in this class instead of last year's class, and that nobody expect maybe Barrett would compare with Bagley and Ayton. Jaren Jackson Jr was noted as a #1 or #2 if he'd been in this class.

Other takeaways of note:
- Nassir Little was considered a top-2 or top-3 prospect (Williamson got some love as well here) in the class

It seems like getting Reddish dialed in is going to be a real key to this coming season. If he can unlock his motivation, we'll have the two best players in the class. But that appears to be a big if right now.

I don't think Coach K will turn Reddish into a really good defensive player in 1 year. I don't think Coach K will turn Reddish into the ultimate glue guy in just one year. I don't think Reddish will unlock all of his potential in just 1 year.

I do, however, think Coach K will motivate the hell out of Reddish and we'll see a completely different Reddish on the offensive end. I mean, Ingram had the same issue. Unlike most on this board, I don't think Coach K is the best coach at every aspect of basketball coaching. However, when it comes to motivating your players, there are few - if any - who are better. This is why the Reddish-Duke connection made so much sense ~10 months ago.

I think Reddish will be an amazing player who is a weird blend between distributor, shooter, and teammate. I'm not sure there is a player who can compare Reddish to at this point.

COYS
04-16-2018, 11:54 AM
I don't think Coach K will turn Reddish into a really good defensive player in 1 year. I don't think Coach K will turn Reddish into the ultimate glue guy in just one year. I don't think Reddish will unlock all of his potential in just 1 year.

I do, however, think Coach K will motivate the hell out of Reddish and we'll see a completely different Reddish on the offensive end. I mean, Ingram had the same issue. Unlike most on this board, I don't think Coach K is the best coach at every aspect of basketball coaching. However, when it comes to motivating your players, there are few - if any - who are better. This is why the Reddish-Duke connection made so much sense ~10 months ago.

I think Reddish will be an amazing player who is a weird blend between distributor, shooter, and teammate. I'm not sure there is a player who can compare Reddish to at this point.

In a strange way, the fact that Reddish doesn't always need to be "The Man," might end up being a bit of a good thing in terms of defining roles for next year's team. Don't get me wrong, he will obviously need to raise his level of intensity (and given his own quotes, it's obvious that HE wants to raise his intensity level), but it seems like Cam is a guy who would be comfortable as a supporting player, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself, especially since it seems that RJ is going to demand a lot of the ball. Aside from outside shooting, chemistry is my biggest concern for next year if only because Tre, RJ, and Cam all can handle the ball on the perimeter and make plays. However, the pieces fit a lot better if Cam is comfortable being a play-maker for others and an opportunistic scorer rather than a ball-dominant scorer. Again, I'm not trying to relegate him to role-player status before the season begins. But on a team with a point guard, a ball-dominant scorer like RJ (I don't mean that as a negative), and a talented forward like Zion, it would not be a bad thing if Cam thrives as an unselfish play-maker who can knock down an open shot and use his athleticism to grab boards . . . and who also happens to have the talent to take over a game if the need arises.

flyingdutchdevil
04-16-2018, 12:07 PM
In a strange way, the fact that Reddish doesn't always need to be "The Man," might end up being a bit of a good thing in terms of defining roles for next year's team. Don't get me wrong, he will obviously need to raise his level of intensity (and given his own quotes, it's obvious that HE wants to raise his intensity level), but it seems like Cam is a guy who would be comfortable as a supporting player, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself, especially since it seems that RJ is going to demand a lot of the ball. Aside from outside shooting, chemistry is my biggest concern for next year if only because Tre, RJ, and Cam all can handle the ball on the perimeter and make plays. However, the pieces fit a lot better if Cam is comfortable being a play-maker for others and an opportunistic scorer rather than a ball-dominant scorer. Again, I'm not trying to relegate him to role-player status before the season begins. But on a team with a point guard, a ball-dominant scorer like RJ (I don't mean that as a negative), and a talented forward like Zion, it would not be a bad thing if Cam thrives as an unselfish play-maker who can knock down an open shot and use his athleticism to grab boards . . . and who also happens to have the talent to take over a game if the need arises.

I'm with you. We don't need 5 alpha dogs on the floor at once (something that may have happened a little with this year's team). Tre could be support but may actually end up like his brother (an alpha dog in the last 3-4 weeks of the season). Cam could play the weird 3-and-A role (shot 3s and assist). Bolden will likely be support as well. Zion could be alpha #2.

But it's safe to say that RJ is the biggest alpha dog on the team. Anyone who doesn't realize that is crazy.

ncexnyc
04-16-2018, 12:27 PM
I'm with you. We don't need 5 alpha dogs on the floor at once (something that may have happened a little with this year's team).

You might be the only person who feels this way about our team this past season. I'd say it was the exact opposite.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-16-2018, 12:32 PM
You might be the only person who feels this way about our team this past season. I'd say it was the exact opposite.

I agree with you. With Grayson focusing on his composure, our team didn't have any... swagger. Or moxie. Or whatever you want to call it.

DavidBenAkiva
04-16-2018, 12:38 PM
My god he should swap height and wingspan with Zion.

Imagine instead...

Zion: 6'9.5 (in own shoes), 7'0 wingspan, 250 lbs.
Reddish: 6'6.5 (in own shoes), 6'10 wingspan, 205 lbs.
Barret: 6'6.5 (in own shoes), 6'9 wingspan, 208 lbs.

No reason not to play small ball with Zion at 5, and AOC for extended minutes.

We could just imagine this starting lineup:

PG: Tre Jones, 6'3" (w/ shoes) tall, 6'4" wingspan, 187 bls.
SG: R.J. Barrett, 6'6.5" tall, 6'8" wingspan, 208 lbs.
SF: Cameron Reddish, 6'9" tall, 7'0" tall wingspan, 207 lbs.
PF: Zion Williamson, 6'6.5" tall, 6'10" wingspan, 250 lbs.
C: Marques Bolden, 6'11" tall, 7'5" wingspan, 250 lbs.

Seems like a lineup capable of playing a good zone. Also worth pointing out that Bolden and Carter had nearly identical offensive rebounding and block rates last year.

proelitedota
04-16-2018, 12:53 PM
We could just imagine this starting lineup:

PG: Tre Jones, 6'3" (w/ shoes) tall, 6'4" wingspan, 187 bls.
SG: R.J. Barrett, 6'6.5" tall, 6'8" wingspan, 208 lbs.
SF: Cameron Reddish, 6'9" tall, 7'0" tall wingspan, 207 lbs.
PF: Zion Williamson, 6'6.5" tall, 6'10" wingspan, 250 lbs.
C: Marques Bolden, 6'11" tall, 7'5" wingspan, 250 lbs.

Seems like a lineup capable of playing a good zone. Also worth pointing out that Bolden and Carter had nearly identical offensive rebounding and block rates last year.


Barret actually has a 6'9 or 6'9.5 wingspan. :)

Next year's team is the tallest and longest Duke team i've seen across the board. It might also be the heaviest.

We should emphasize O/D boards from all 5 positions on the floor.

DavidBenAkiva
04-16-2018, 01:01 PM
Barret actually has a 6'9 or 6'9.5 wingspan. :)

Next year's team is the tallest and longest Duke team i've seen across the board. It might also be the heaviest.

We should emphasize O/D boards from all 5 positions on the floor.

My bad!

I was just looking through comparisons of recent Duke players and found that Cam Reddish is about the same height and wingspan as Amile Jefferson was coming out of high school with the exception that Reddish is 10 pounds heavier.

Also, Javin DeLaurier is about the same, too, at 6'10" with a 7'0" wingspan and 8'10" standing reach but much more filled out at 220+ pounds. I wouldn't be surprised to see Reddish, DeLaurier, and Bolden out there for stretches of time next season, which would give the team a super lengthy frontline. It might not be a good shooting team, but it could at least be an efficient offensive team with all that passing and offensive rebounding potential.

whereinthehellami
04-16-2018, 01:33 PM
There is legitimate concern about Duke's ability to hit 3 's consistently next year and knowing that teams will likely zone Duke. A zone can be beat by good passing and driving. Duke will have 4 players that fit that description and have decent mid-range games. The thought of Barrett and Reddish in the middle of the zone is interesting/comforting.

I never liked the chemistry of this past year's team. Not in the sense that the guys didn't get along or that anyone had a bad attitude but more in the sense that they never clicked and had flow. As powerful as the offense was for most of last year it seemed disjointed to me. I'm hopeful that the team next year develops good chemistry quickly this year, establishing flow and identity. That is why i'm hoping that Duke doesn't add anyone else. I think they have enough pieces and it is just a matter of letting the guys develop some chemistry.

kAzE
04-16-2018, 01:47 PM
There is legitimate concern about Duke's ability to hit 3 's consistently next year and knowing that teams will likely zone Duke. A zone can be beat by good passing and driving. Duke will have 4 players that fit that description and have decent mid-range games. The thought of Barrett and Reddish in the middle of the zone is interesting/comforting.

I never liked the chemistry of this past year's team. Not in the sense that the guys didn't get along or that anyone had a bad attitude but more in the sense that they never clicked and had flow. As powerful as the offense was for most of last year it seemed disjointed to me. I'm hopeful that the team next year develops good chemistry quickly this year, establishing flow and identity. That is why i'm hoping that Duke doesn't add anyone else. I think they have enough pieces and it is just a matter of letting the guys develop some chemistry.

I'm with you. It seemed that in the 4 and a half games that Marvin Bagley missed due to injury, we functioned more smoothly as an offensive unit. Obviously, Bagley was our best player, but the offense just seemed to make more sense from a chemistry standpoint when he didn't play. Maybe it was just that we had some good matchups during his missed games, but Grayson just looked more comfortable and was able to be himself and do some of the things (especially driving into the paint) that made him an all-american in his sophomore year. With both Bagley and Carter on the floor, it was much harder for him to do those things.

DavidBenAkiva
04-16-2018, 01:59 PM
I'm with you. It seemed that in the 4 and a half games that Marvin Bagley missed due to injury, we functioned more smoothly as an offensive unit. Obviously, Bagley was our best player, but the offense just seemed to make more sense from a chemistry standpoint when he didn't play. Maybe it was just that we had some good matchups during his missed games, but Grayson just looked more comfortable and was able to be himself and do some of the things (especially driving into the paint) that made him an all-american in his sophomore year. With both Bagley and Carter on the floor, it was much harder for him to do those things.

I agree with the above statements and am looking forward to a more spread out offense in which all the ball handlers will have the ability to get into the lane. Not every team will zone Duke, after all. Few teams run that defense. Bolden is the only traditional big on this team that likes to post up, but he has not been a focal point of the offense in his time at Duke. He's more likely to be a part of the pick-and-roll than to just hang out in the paint. That leaves Jones, Barrett, Reddish, and Williamson with a lot of real estate to move to the basket. Instead of a drive-and-kick offense, we might see a lot drive-and-dish in which Barrett or Reddish dump it off to a cutting teammate that just got freed up by a pick or exploited a switch. Most 3's should be open shots as the defense collapses in to cover the cutting wing or after an offensive rebound.

From watching bits of the all-star games and Nike Hoops Summit, it seems clear that Barrett is going to see the ball in his hands a lot, but that the ball is going to move. He's a facilitator as well as a creator. I'm really excited to see what he can do playing with all those weapons around him.

flyingdutchdevil
04-16-2018, 03:13 PM
I agree with the above statements and am looking forward to a more spread out offense in which all the ball handlers will have the ability to get into the lane. Not every team will zone Duke, after all. Few teams run that defense. Bolden is the only traditional big on this team that likes to post up, but he has not been a focal point of the offense in his time at Duke. He's more likely to be a part of the pick-and-roll than to just hang out in the paint. That leaves Jones, Barrett, Reddish, and Williamson with a lot of real estate to move to the basket. Instead of a drive-and-kick offense, we might see a lot drive-and-dish in which Barrett or Reddish dump it off to a cutting teammate that just got freed up by a pick or exploited a switch. Most 3's should be open shots as the defense collapses in to cover the cutting wing or after an offensive rebound.

From watching bits of the all-star games and Nike Hoops Summit, it seems clear that Barrett is going to see the ball in his hands a lot, but that the ball is going to move. He's a facilitator as well as a creator. I'm really excited to see what he can do playing with all those weapons around him.

I agree with kaze that this year's team just didn't gel well. I'm putting the vast majority of that on a) freshman and b) not everyone embracing their true roles/deferring too much.

But I'm not banking on everyone gelling next year, either. For one, just because you like each other doesn't mean you can play well together. It helps, but it's far from a guarantee. The guy I gelled with the most in Duke pick up games is a kid from a rival fraternity. It just depends on how much you buy into your role.

Next year, the pieces don't fit as nicely as this year. This year, we had a true PG, two true wings, a perfect 4, and a college 5. And there were some issues. Next year, we have a true PG. We have 3 wings of various heights (come on down, Cam!), various weights (come on down, Zion!), and various motivation (come on down, RJ!) who likely all have some issues shooting the 3 (Cam is the best of the 3. But it's not like he's a sharp shooter). And then we have a 5 who plays solid D but is forgettable - at least right now - on offense. It could work really well. But it could also fall apart quickly.

I don't know what to think about next year. I can tell you it'll be frustrating from 3 without a surefire 3pt threat (unless AOC gains 15 pounds, learns a little D, and continues working on his shot) and that defense will be a horror story early in the season, but that's about it.

CDu
04-16-2018, 04:31 PM
Next year, the pieces don't fit as nicely as this year. This year, we had a true PG, two true wings, a perfect 4, and a college 5. And there were some issues. Next year, we have a true PG. We have 3 wings of various heights (come on down, Cam!), various weights (come on down, Zion!), and various motivation (come on down, RJ!) who likely all have some issues shooting the 3 (Cam is the best of the 3. But it's not like he's a sharp shooter). And then we have a 5 who plays solid D but is forgettable - at least right now - on offense. It could work really well. But it could also fall apart quickly.

I actually don’t think next year’s team blends less well than this year’s group.

Williamson is not a wing. He is as quintessential a PF as you are going to get in the college game. Heck, I think he would even dominate at the 5 against all but a handful of 5s. Conversely, I would really rather not see him defending for long stretches on the perimeter. He is a a PF/smallball 5.

I also think we have better (and more) ballhandlers, which might be the single most important (and certainly the most undersppreciated) skill in basketball. Last year’s team had 1.5 strong ballhandlers. I say 1.5 because neither Allen (lacking break-you-down ball skills) nor Duval (lacking good decisionmaking/judgement) were complete ballhandlers. Next year, we will have at least 2.5 (Barrett and Reddish with minor question marks). And our PF will have better ballhandling skills than our SF did this year. That will make a big difference as we should have way more guys capable of initiating offense.

Plus, with Williamson’s ball skills, we should be able to spread teams out more than we could this year, even if 3pt shooting isn’t super. Because we should have more guys able and willing to attack off the dribble, and with the athleticism to still draw defenses out of position.

We also didn’t have a team whose pieces fit well together. All of our guys were better suited to be ball-dominant players, and weren’t as good in scaled down roles. Next year, we know Bolden and Jones are comfortable in secondary/complementary roles, meaning Barrett/Reddish/Williamson can dominate possessions. And both Barrett and Williamson have shown great ability off the ball, which should play nicely with the passing skills of Jones and Reddish.

But more than anything, I think the team will be better suited to do what Coach K likes. We basically had to play with two post-oriented bigs at all times, and the staff never really figured out how to do that. Next year, we will go back to having 4 perimeter-oriented guys on the floor at all times, which should play back into Coach K’s wheelhouse.

kAzE
04-16-2018, 04:46 PM
I actually don’t think next year’s team blends less well than this year’s group.

Williamson is not a wing. He is as quintessential a PF as you are going to get in the college game. Heck, I think he would even dominate at the 5 against all but a handful of 5s. Conversely, I would really rather not see him defending for long stretches on the perimeter. He is a a PF/smallball 5.

I also think we have better (and more) ballhandlers, which might be the single most important (and certainly the most undersppreciated) skill in basketball. Last year’s team had 1.5 strong ballhandlers. I say 1.5 because neither Allen (lacking break-you-down ball skills) nor Duval (lacking good decisionmaking/judgement) were complete ballhandlers. Next year, we will have at least 2.5 (Barrett and Reddish with minor question marks). And our PF will have better ballhandling skills than our SF did this year. That will make a big difference as we should have way more guys capable of initiating offense.

Plus, with Williamson’s ball skills, we should be able to spread teams out more than we could this year, even if 3pt shooting isn’t super. Because we should have more guys able and willing to attack off the dribble, and with the athleticism to still draw defenses out of position.

We also didn’t have a team whose pieces fit well together. All of our guys were better suited to be ball-dominant players, and weren’t as good in scaled down roles. Next year, we know Bolden and Jones are comfortable in secondary/complementary roles, meaning Barrett/Reddish/Williamson can dominate possessions. And both Barrett and Williamson have shown great ability off the ball, which should play nicely with the passing skills of Jones and Reddish.

But more than anything, I think the team will be better suited to do what Coach K likes. We basically had to play with two post-oriented bigs at all times, and the staff never really figured out how to do that. Next year, we will go back to having 4 perimeter-oriented guys on the floor at all times, which should play back into Coach K’s wheelhouse.

99.9% agree with everything here. The 0.1% is just in there for uncertainty over how they actually fit in real life, rather than on paper.

On paper, I think the ball handling and passing skills of the 4 freshmen are going to help this team's offense be more of a natural, flowing offense than we saw last year, which often became posting up Bagley or Carter and force feeding them. It wasn't pretty, but early in the season, it was effective. We ran in to trouble once teams started hard denying entry passes into the post, and defending the hell out of Bagley's left hand.

This year, we won't be posting up very much. Bolden is the only guy who you would want posting up (his hook shot actually looked pretty decent last year), while Zion, RJ, Tre, and Cam are all guys who are at their best taking their man off the dribble, getting in the paint, and making a play for themselves or for a teammate.

With the 4 freshmen, I think we actually have closer to 3.5 ball handlers than 2.5. As long as it's a big man matching up with Zion, I have no problem with him taking guys off the dribble from the perimeter.

CDu
04-16-2018, 04:56 PM
99.9% agree with everything here. The 0.1% is just in there for uncertainty over how they actually fit in real life, rather than on paper.

On paper, I think the ball handling and passing skills of the 4 freshmen are going to help this team's offense be more of a natural, flowing offense than we saw last year, which often became posting up Bagley or Carter and force feeding them. It wasn't pretty, but early in the season, it was effective. We ran in to trouble once teams started hard denying entry passes into the post, and defending the hell out of Bagley's left hand.

This year, we won't be posting up very much. Bolden is the only guy who you would want posting up (his hook shot actually looked pretty decent last year), while Zion, RJ, Tre, and Cam are all guys who are at their best taking their man off the dribble, getting in the paint, and making a play for themselves or for a teammate.

With the 4 freshmen, I think we actually have closer to 3.5 ball handlers than 2.5. As long as it's a big man matching up with Zion, I have no problem with him taking guys off the dribble from the perimeter.

Yeah, ditto for me on this. I left out Williamson on the "at minimum" list of ballhandlers, but with him I would definitely envision that quartet as more of a 3-3.5 on the purely subjective scale. I think we may have 2-3 guys who are more sure with the ball next year than our best ballhandler this year (Duval could certainly do more things with the dribble than the incoming guys, but he was also sloppier with the ball).

Definitely intrigued as well by using Bolden as a pick and roll guy (he is a better screener than Bagley) and occasional post presence (his hook looked pretty decent, and in general he looked more poised in the second half of the year). But he is a really nice complementary piece for a team with multiple high-usage slashers.

And definitely agree that you never know until they take the court. I just feel like next year's team is going to look and feel more like a typical Duke team than this year's team did. Even without having a bunch of knock-down shooters.

Rich
04-16-2018, 09:35 PM
Plus, with Williamson’s ball skills, we should be able to spread teams out more than we could this year, even if 3pt shooting isn’t super. Because we should have more guys able and willing to attack off the dribble, and with the athleticism to still draw defenses out of position.

Not trying to be snarky, but why would a team playing defense against a team that can't shoot threes be allowed to be spread out? Why not just pack it in and guard the mid-range and paint? How would an offense with our personnel attack a team that just packs it in?


But more than anything, I think the team will be better suited to do what Coach K likes. We basically had to play with two post-oriented bigs at all times, and the staff never really figured out how to do that. Next year, we will go back to having 4 perimeter-oriented guys on the floor at all times, which should play back into Coach K’s wheelhouse.

This I agree with, but I feel as though we're gonna be lamenting our 3 point shooting deficiencies a bunch next year as it has come to really define success the college game.

dukelifer
04-16-2018, 09:54 PM
Not trying to be snarky, but why would a team playing defense against a team that can't shoot threes be allowed to be spread out? Why not just pack it in and guard the mid-range and paint? How would an offense with our personnel attack a team that just packs it in?



This I agree with, but I feel as though we're gonna be lamenting our 3 point shooting deficiencies a bunch next year as it has come to really define success the college game.
Maybe put AOC on the floor and hope that Reddish can hit when wide open. Nice to have multiple shooters ala Nova but 1-2 may be enough with other guys that can spread the floor and drive.

Troublemaker
04-17-2018, 12:31 AM
Not trying to be snarky, but why would a team playing defense against a team that can't shoot threes be allowed to be spread out? Why not just pack it in and guard the mid-range and paint? How would an offense with our personnel attack a team that just packs it in?

The defense wouldn't. The underlying assumption that Duke can't shoot threes needs to be wrong and I think probably is wrong. Or at least I'd be surprised if Coach K allows himself to have two consecutive teams that can't spread the court. He would deserve a lot of criticism were that to come to pass, especially if he remains inactive on the grad transfer market. Most likely, we're making too much of a Hoop Summit game in which both teams shot very poorly from three.

Kedsy
04-17-2018, 12:58 AM
The defense wouldn't. The underlying assumption that Duke can't shoot threes needs to be wrong and I think probably is wrong. Or at least I'd be surprised if Coach K allows himself to have two consecutive teams that can't spread the court. He would deserve a lot of criticism were that to come to pass, especially if he remains inactive on the grad transfer market. Most likely, we're making too much of a Hoop Summit game in which both teams shot very poorly from three.

It may be worth noting that we had five guys who shot 37% or better from three-point range in 2017-18, and shot 37.2% as a team, good for 73rd best in the nation. So it's not like we were incompetent from three this season.

UrinalCake
04-17-2018, 01:28 AM
Agree that the pieces didn't fit well this past season. Not only did we have two centers (I believe Wendell was a center, even though he shot well from 3) which clogged the paint and didn't have the shooters to space the floor, but Duval was a guy who really needed to run all the time as he played best in transition. Instead we ran a half-court game and halfway through the season went the complete opposite direction by deliberately slowing down the pace. Grayson was not our most talented player, but as the lone senior was granted the authority to take all the big shots even if they were bad ones, the final play in regulation against Kansas being a prime example.

It remains to be seen how well next year's team fits together. Shooting, rebounding, and leadership are my biggest concerns (not necessarily in that order).

whereinthehellami
04-17-2018, 08:06 AM
Last year, on paper, was an absolutely amazing team. Senior AA candidate who could shoot and drive. #5 PG with length. #7 PF and #14 SG who were good friends and had chemistry coming in. And then you add the #1 player/PF. But you add Bagley late, team chemistry was already starting to form. Now it is time for readjustment. And the senior AA candidate whom was called on to lead wasn't sure if that meant he should lead or defer and when to do either. Who should have took those last shots against KU? I'm not sure last year's team knew, it seemed to vary, like their identity.

There is no doubt next year, who has the ball at the end of the game, Barrett wants (needs?) that last shot. I think the four recruits coming in this year understand that Barrett is an alpha dog. I think they also understand that Jones is the leader and that they can trust him to make sure they are all integrated into the offense. Jones makes me think of Coach K and the stories of when he was younger and all the other kids would wait for him to organize their neighborhood games. I'm really looking forward to Jones's ability to manage the offense. Reddish and Williamson should flourish feeding off the above dynamics.

If Bolden buys into his role next year, I think he has the chance to look really good. If he stays healthy and lets the action come to him, he could end up as first rounder. Who would have thought that possible? As the coaches say, each player is on their own journey and what a strange trip for Bolden.

I think Javin has a huge role next year as a leader. A vocal, natural born leader who is a positive, hard working influence. I think he is the perfect guy to get the four freshman pointed in the right direction and to keep them on the right track as the season ebbs and flows.

budwom
04-17-2018, 08:34 AM
As some have clearly noted, I can't see why any team would not play a zone against Duke next year until we show we can hit the outside shots. Playing man to man vs this set of athletes, (with a PG like Jones) would seem to be pretty risky.

Saratoga2
04-17-2018, 09:14 AM
Yeah, ditto for me on this. I left out Williamson on the "at minimum" list of ballhandlers, but with him I would definitely envision that quartet as more of a 3-3.5 on the purely subjective scale. I think we may have 2-3 guys who are more sure with the ball next year than our best ballhandler this year (Duval could certainly do more things with the dribble than the incoming guys, but he was also sloppier with the ball).

Definitely intrigued as well by using Bolden as a pick and roll guy (he is a better screener than Bagley) and occasional post presence (his hook looked pretty decent, and in general he looked more poised in the second half of the year). But he is a really nice complementary piece for a team with multiple high-usage slashers.

And definitely agree that you never know until they take the court. I just feel like next year's team is going to look and feel more like a typical Duke team than this year's team did. Even without having a bunch of knock-down shooters.

It's pretty clear that most posters are leaving AOC out of their thinking as a valuable contributor next season. The kid is 6'5" and has a nice handle and shot. He was on the thin side this year but what I thought he most lacked is the confidence to go for the shot when he had the chance. AOC has as good a handle as most wings/SGs in the league, is explosive and shows signs of being a nice player. Like a lot of young kids thrown into a team with a bunch of stars, he tended to defer. He has a year of experience, which also has to make him more valuable. i expect he and Javin to be first and second off the bench depending on the circumstances.

Troublemaker
04-17-2018, 09:31 AM
It may be worth noting that we had five guys who shot 37% or better from three-point range in 2017-18, and shot 37.2% as a team, good for 73rd best in the nation. So it's not like we were incompetent from three this season.

True, we were not incompetent at shooting threes, but we also only had 2 guys on the court who shot them well at decent volume. Marvin's 1.8 attempts/gm and Wendell's 1.2 attempts/gm couldn't cut it. For example, Kansas left Wendell wide open to clog the lane. He got up only 3 attempts and missed them all. A true stretch big man like Ryan Kelly would've continued taking the wide-open threes and ended up 7 for 15 from out there. (Of course, Kansas would not have played Ryan the same way; they made a good gamble to let Wendell shoot.) This season, at any one time, Duke usually had 3 players on the court that opponents were all too comfortable leaving open at the three-pt line to clog the middle. We need to reduce that number to 2 players or 1 player this upcoming season.

COYS
04-17-2018, 09:50 AM
It's pretty clear that most posters are leaving AOC out of their thinking as a valuable contributor next season. The kid is 6'5" and has a nice handle and shot. He was on the thin side this year but what I thought he most lacked is the confidence to go for the shot when he had the chance. AOC has as good a handle as most wings/SGs in the league, is explosive and shows signs of being a nice player. Like a lot of young kids thrown into a team with a bunch of stars, he tended to defer. He has a year of experience, which also has to make him more valuable. i expect he and Javin to be first and second off the bench depending on the circumstances.

I don’t think posters are leaving AOC off the list as an important contributor. If our roster stays put, he is the first perimeter option off the bench. I think people are interested in speculating as to how the projected starting lineup fits. In the best case scenario, the four frosh plus Marques has enough shooting to open up driving lanes for our wings to attack while AOC is instant offense off the bench. What is probably less ideal is if the starters can’t shoot well enough to space the floor forcing AOC to become perhaps the primary three point threat. I’m very high on AOC. Most freshman that are ranked where Alex was ranked do not get as much playing time as Alex got as a freshman. He’s more than just a shooter and has the size to be a really good player . . . A starter even, in his junior and senior seasons. That said, if he becomes our primary perimeter threat next year, it means that none of RJ, Cam, Tre, or Zion is scaring anyone with their three point shot. That would be a big problem. Ideally, AOC will be lighting it up off the bench because defenses are so busy trying to stop our star freshmen that he gets lots of open corner threes and opportunistic cuts to the basket and offensive board put-backs. It’s not a coincidence that Alex’s best stretch of play this season came before defenses started to collapse on Marvin and completely stopped guarding Trevon on the perimeter.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2018, 11:08 AM
True, we were not incompetent at shooting threes, but we also only had 2 guys on the court who shot them well at decent volume. Marvin's 1.8 attempts/gm and Wendell's 1.2 attempts/gm couldn't cut it. For example, Kansas left Wendell wide open to clog the lane. He got up only 3 attempts and missed them all. A true stretch big man like Ryan Kelly would've continued taking the wide-open threes and ended up 7 for 15 from out there. (Of course, Kansas would not have played Ryan the same way; they made a good gamble to let Wendell shoot.) This season, at any one time, Duke usually had 3 players on the court that opponents were all too comfortable leaving open at the three-pt line to clog the middle. We need to reduce that number to 2 players or 1 player this upcoming season.

Our 3pt shooting wasn't incompetent. Our 3pt shooting was incompetent in the 2nd weekend of the tournament, where Duke shot 12-55, or 22%.

And that's where, unfairly, a lot of folks will judge our 3pt shooting.

Next year, we don't have any surefire 3pt shooters like this year. This year, we knew we had Grayson. We felt optimistic about Trent (and he turned out to be amazing from 3). Next year, we have....AOC? Maybe Cam? For AOC to see the floor, he really needs to improve his D. And Cam has a reliable 3, but he's not Grayson nor Gary.

COYS
04-17-2018, 11:13 AM
Our 3pt shooting wasn't incompetent. Our 3pt shooting was incompetent in the 2nd weekend of the tournament, where Duke shot 12-55, or 22%.

And that's where, unfairly, a lot of folks will judge our 3pt shooting.

Next year, we don't have any surefire 3pt shooters like this year. This year, we knew we had Grayson. We felt optimistic about Trent (and he turned out to be amazing from 3). Next year, we have...AOC? Maybe Cam? For AOC to see the floor, he really needs to improve his D. And Cam has a reliable 3, but he's not Grayson nor Gary.

I think the combination of shooting poorly in the second weekend of the tournament combined with the fact that defenses really only respected Grayson and Gary from three was the problem. We could have shot poorly from three, but if Kansas had to spread out its defense to cover Trevon, we might have had an extra good look or two inside for Marvin or Wendell, which would have made all the difference. We might be better at spacing the floor next year if we have three or four guys who are capable of being 35-37% shooters at high volume even if the team three point average isn’t as good as this past season.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2018, 11:20 AM
I think the combination of shooting poorly in the second weekend of the tournament combined with the fact that defenses really only respected Grayson and Gary from three was the problem. We could have shot poorly from three, but if Kansas had to spread out its defense to cover Trevon, we might have had an extra good look or two inside for Marvin or Wendell, which would have made all the difference. We might be better at spacing the floor next year if we have three or four guys who are capable of being 35-37% shooters at high volume even if the team three point average isn’t as good as this past season.

35-37% is really good. To put that in perspective, Kennard shot 32% as a freshman. Tatum shot 34%. Allen was under 35% (just barely) as a freshman. And these are all lights out shooters today.

I'd be stocked if we had 2 players on the whole roster who shot 35%+.

I don't think we will have a Duval-esque shooter, but I also don't think we'll have any knock-downs either.

Troublemaker
04-17-2018, 11:31 AM
35-37% is really good. To put that in perspective, Kennard shot 32% as a freshman. Tatum shot 34%. Allen was under 35% (just barely) as a freshman. And these are all lights out shooters today.

I'd be stocked if we had 2 players on the whole roster who shot 35%+.

I don't think we will have a Duval-esque shooter, but I also don't think we'll have any knock-downs either.

Is that stoked or shocked because if the latter, I'd definitely bet a pie on it. I think people are dooming our three-pt shooting way too early.

chrishoke
04-17-2018, 11:31 AM
I don't think we will have a Duval-esque shooter, but I also don't think we'll have any knock-downs either.

AOC?

COYS
04-17-2018, 11:59 AM
35-37% is really good. To put that in perspective, Kennard shot 32% as a freshman. Tatum shot 34%. Allen was under 35% (just barely) as a freshman. And these are all lights out shooters today.

I'd be stocked if we had 2 players on the whole roster who shot 35%+.

I don't think we will have a Duval-esque shooter, but I also don't think we'll have any knock-downs either.

I think Duke in '07-'08 and '08-'09 might be a good example of what I"m talking about. None of Demarcus, Gerald, Jon, Kyle, or Nolan was a knock-down shooter in those seasons. Greg followed up an excellent '08 with a poor '09 from three (his role also changed, dramatically). The '09 team only shot 34.9% as a team while the '08 team shot 37.7%. Still, even Gerald took well over 100 threes in '09 despite being the poorest shooter in the group. He was competent enough that defenses couldn't simply leave him all alone on the perimeter, even if they were more likely to emphasize defending Jon, Kyle, Greg, and Nolan from three. I wouldn't be surprised to see Tre, Cam, RJ, Alex and possibly Zion all take in excess of 100 threes. As long as they are making enough to stay in the low 30's percent-wise, I think we'll be ok. Someone from that group will have a good year. Someone won't be as good. But as long as they are all credible threats, we can keep the floor spread, which will keep the offense moving and (hopefully) mean that most of the three point shots are open looks off of drive and kicks. I think you and I are mostly in agreement, but I'm probably a little more bullish on two guys shooting better than 35%.

Trevon was probably the single worst three point shooting starting guard Duke has had in the past two decades, with the possible exception of Gerald in his first few seasons (which is a little different because we had enough shooters that Gerald didn't really have to try to shoot many threes until his junior season). DeMarcus, Jayson, Justise, Jabari, and others have come to Duke with questionable outside shooting ability and still managed to post competent numbers. With the exception of Jabari and his step-back three move that he eventually abandoned as the season wore on, those guys all shot well mostly because they only took open looks off of kick outs. As long as we have enough competent threats to space the floor to allow for drive and kicks, I think we'll manage to knock down enough threes.

Kedsy
04-17-2018, 02:05 PM
I think Duke in '07-'08 and '08-'09 might be a good example of what I"m talking about. None of Demarcus, Gerald, Jon, Kyle, or Nolan was a knock-down shooter in those seasons. Greg followed up an excellent '08 with a poor '09 from three (his role also changed, dramatically). The '09 team only shot 34.9% as a team while the '08 team shot 37.7%. Still, even Gerald took well over 100 threes in '09 despite being the poorest shooter in the group. He was competent enough that defenses couldn't simply leave him all alone on the perimeter, even if they were more likely to emphasize defending Jon, Kyle, Greg, and Nolan from three.

The 2009 team was Duke's worst three-point shooting team (by percentage) since they painted the three-point line on the court. Hopefully next year's team will be better than that.


True, we were not incompetent at shooting threes, but we also only had 2 guys on the court who shot them well at decent volume. Marvin's 1.8 attempts/gm and Wendell's 1.2 attempts/gm couldn't cut it. For example, Kansas left Wendell wide open to clog the lane. He got up only 3 attempts and missed them all. A true stretch big man like Ryan Kelly would've continued taking the wide-open threes and ended up 7 for 15 from out there. (Of course, Kansas would not have played Ryan the same way; they made a good gamble to let Wendell shoot.) This season, at any one time, Duke usually had 3 players on the court that opponents were all too comfortable leaving open at the three-pt line to clog the middle. We need to reduce that number to 2 players or 1 player this upcoming season.

I understand that this is the issue most are worried about. But having an insufficient number of reliable high-volume three-point shooters in 2017-18 didn't really keep us from taking a lot of three-pointers nor from making a lot of three-pointers.

With two reliable high-volume three-point shooters in 2017-18, we took 36.3% of our shots from three and made 37.2%. In 2016-17, with five reliable high-volume three-point shooters (Grayson Allen, Luke Kennard, Jayson Tatum, Frank Jackson, Matt Jones), we took 38.3% of our shots from three and made 37.8%. Not so much of a difference, is it? The 2011 team (with Nolan Smith, Kyle Singler, Seth Curry, Andre Dawkins, Ryan Kelly, and Kyrie Irving (when healthy)) took 35.3% of its shots from three and made 37.4%.

This year's team took more three-pointers (both as a percentage of shots and per possession) than our 1999, 2004, 2010, and 2015 teams (among many others), and made a decent percentage. Despite the idea that teams could slough off three of our five players, if you look at the season as a whole and don't fixate on the last couple games it didn't really affect us very much on the court. Especially since (despite people clogging the lane against us) the team's two-point shooting percentage was Duke's fourth-best since they started segregating twos and threes, 32 years ago (2018: 56.0%; 1999: 56.5%; 2002: 57.4%; 1989: 57.5%). Overall, our eFG% in 2018 (55.9%) was better than 2010 (50.5%) and 2004 (53.2%) and not that far off from 2015 (56.6%) or even 1999 (57.4%). We had a really good offense (#3 in KenPom's offensive ratings) despite not having so many three-point snipers.

So I really don't think our lack of shooters in 2017-18 was as big a deal as people seem to think. Doesn't mean it won't be an issue next season. But I don't think it will be because whether or not any of Tre, Cam, RJ, and Zion can actually shoot from outside, people will have to guard them on the perimeter anyway. It's generally not a great idea to give a lot of room to a talented slasher because if you let him build up a head of steam he has a good chance of scoring even if you clog the paint, and it's an even worse idea to give a talented passer a lot of room (unless he only has one or two guys to pass to, but that's clearly not going to be an issue next season).

Anyway, I'm not saying outside shooting ability won't be a concern next season -- to the contrary, I believe it'll be one of the top three things to watch (along with defense and experience) -- but I don't think it's the potential calamity a lot of people are making it out to be.


It's pretty clear that most posters are leaving AOC out of their thinking as a valuable contributor next season. The kid is 6'5" and has a nice handle and shot. He was on the thin side this year but what I thought he most lacked is the confidence to go for the shot when he had the chance. AOC has as good a handle as most wings/SGs in the league, is explosive and shows signs of being a nice player. Like a lot of young kids thrown into a team with a bunch of stars, he tended to defer. He has a year of experience, which also has to make him more valuable. i expect he and Javin to be first and second off the bench depending on the circumstances.

I don't think anybody's leaving AOC out of their thinking, and pretty much everyone thinks he'll be first or second (probably second) off the bench next season. But it's also worth noting that in his last 100 minutes of 2018, he only scored 5.2 points per 40 minutes, on 23.5% shooting (33.3% from three), and had a 1.2:1 a/to ratio, while also being one of the worst defenders in our regular rotation. And I don't think he showed "as good a handle as most wings/SGs in the league," either.

He did show the potential to be a major contributor at Duke though, and next year's team will need his shooting. Hopefully he'll show a big freshman-to-sophomore jump, as many Duke players seem to do.

AtlDuke72
04-17-2018, 02:37 PM
AOC?

Enough about AOC - doesn't anyone on thie Board have any comments about whether the 4 recruits are good shooters?

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2018, 02:41 PM
Enough about AOC - doesn't anyone on thie Board have any comments about whether the 4 recruits are good shooters?

Ummmmm....you're joking, right? We've talked about that a lot in the last 6 pages.

Bottomline:

Good shooter: Cam
Needs improvement: RJ, Tre, Zion

kAzE
04-17-2018, 02:45 PM
I'm not sure why Duval always gets blamed for our perceived reputation as a "bad shooting" team last year. We shot 37% as a team from 3, that's pretty good. We just missed shots when it mattered. In the sweet 16 (Syracuse and Kansas games), we had plenty of open looks at 3 pointers that just didn't go down. And it wasn't really Duval's fault, either. He went 2 for 9 from deep, about what you would expect from him.

Gary Trent was 4 for 18 from three, and Grayson Allen went 5 for 23. That hurts. We had enough shooting, but our shooters couldn't shoot when it mattered.

I think the concern for lack of shooting next year is a little overblown. I suspect that we will be an adequate shooting team. I'm more worried about the defense coming together with such a young team.

CDu
04-17-2018, 02:48 PM
So I really don't think our lack of shooters in 2017-18 was as big a deal as people seem to think. Doesn't mean it won't be an issue next season. But I don't think it will be because whether or not any of Tre, Cam, RJ, and Zion can actually shoot from outside, people will have to guard them on the perimeter anyway. It's generally not a great idea to give a lot of room to a talented slasher because if you let him build up a head of steam he has a good chance of scoring even if you clog the paint, and it's an even worse idea to give a talented passer a lot of room (unless he only has one or two guys to pass to, but that's clearly not going to be an issue next season).

Just getting back to the boards, and was going to post my response to "why do you think we will spread teams out next year". But this sums it up. Teams could cheat into the paint off of a guy like Carter, DeLaurier, White, or Bagley because those guys weren't strong enough ballhandlers to punish the open space. They didn't cheat off of Duval when he had the ball, because if you gave him breathing room he was a nightmare to defend. They DID cheat off of Duval when he was off ball, which is one of the reasons he was such a bad fit as a player when not the ballhandler: he really provided nothing off ball.

Next year, packing the lane would give driving and passing windows to any of 4 guys who are good at driving and/or passing (any of Jones, Barrett, Reddish, Williamson, and O'Connell). And we will still have 1 or 2 (at minimum O'Connell and Reddish) good shooters, so they'll have to respect the threat of a three. It won't look like 2001 with Battier/Dunleavy/James/Duhon/Williams all dangerous from 3. But having good ballhandlers creates a gravitational pull on the defense, even if they aren't prolific shooters. Having 3-4 of those guys on the floor at all times will, with driving and passing, get defenses out of position. Even without great 3pt shooters.

People questioned how we'd have a good offense this year without 3-4 3pt threats on the floor at once. Well, we had one of our best offenses ever this year. It just didn't look like our "typical" offense. Well, next year won't necessarily look like our typical offense either. But I have little concern that it will be a REALLY efficient offense. My concern will be on the defensive side of the ball.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2018, 02:56 PM
Just getting back to the boards, and was going to post my response to "why do you think we will spread teams out next year". But this sums it up. Teams could cheat into the paint off of a guy like Carter, DeLaurier, White, or Bagley because those guys weren't strong enough ballhandlers to punish the open space. They didn't cheat off of Duval when he had the ball, because if you gave him breathing room he was a nightmare to defend. They DID cheat off of Duval when he was off ball, which is one of the reasons he was such a bad fit as a player when not the ballhandler: he really provided nothing off ball.

Next year, packing the lane would give driving and passing windows to any of 4 guys who are good at driving and/or passing (any of Jones, Barrett, Reddish, Williamson, and O'Connell). And we will still have 1 or 2 (at minimum O'Connell and Reddish) good shooters, so they'll have to respect the threat of a three. It won't look like 2001 with Battier/Dunleavy/James/Duhon/Williams all dangerous from 3. But having good ballhandlers creates a gravitational pull on the defense, even if they aren't prolific shooters. Having 3-4 of those guys on the floor at all times will, with driving and passing, get defenses out of position. Even without great 3pt shooters.

People questioned how we'd have a good offense this year without 3-4 3pt threats on the floor at once. Well, we had one of our best offenses ever this year. It just didn't look like our "typical" offense. Well, next year won't necessarily look like our typical offense either. But I have little concern that it will be a REALLY efficient offense. My concern will be on the defensive side of the ball.

Isn't that typical Coach K this year? Excellent offense, questionable defense? And Coach K either fixes the D (2015, 2018) or he doesn't (2012, 2016, 2017).

While I am not worried about our offensive efficiency, I am worried about our 3pt shooting. There are some things that coaches love and teams will be good regardless of the personnel. RoyWill loves rebounding. He had an undersized team this year and his team did a great job of rebounding. Coach K loves 3pt shooting. But can our personnel hit enough 3s? I have no idea. My gut tells me one of Zion, RJ, or Tre will be better than expected 3pt shooter (like Trent this year). I just have no idea who.

kAzE
04-17-2018, 03:15 PM
Isn't that typical Coach K this year? Excellent offense, questionable defense? And Coach K either fixes the D (2015, 2018) or he doesn't (2012, 2016, 2017).

While I am not worried about our offensive efficiency, I am worried about our 3pt shooting. There are some things that coaches love and teams will be good regardless of the personnel. RoyWill loves rebounding. He had an undersized team this year and his team did a great job of rebounding. Coach K loves 3pt shooting. But can our personnel hit enough 3s? I have no idea. My gut tells me one of Zion, RJ, or Tre will be better than expected 3pt shooter (like Trent this year). I just have no idea who.

I think all of those guys will shoot it slightly better than they did in high school, just based on the fact that none of them will be expected to carry as much of the scoring and ball handling load as they did in high school. They will be getting wide open looks because we'll be an excellent passing and ball handling team.

I would be surprised if this wasn't one of the best assist to made FG ratio teams we've had in awhile.

proelitedota
04-17-2018, 03:22 PM
As long as we generate more possessions per game than our opponents through defense and rebounding, we don't have to be a good 3 point shooting team. Rebounding is reliable night and out, I hope we're better on the boards on D than we were this season, even if it means we give up zone.

kAzE
04-17-2018, 03:26 PM
I would be surprised if this wasn't one of the best assist to made FG ratio teams we've had in awhile.

So I got curious, and calculated this stat over the past 10 years:

2017-18: 57.6% A/FGM
2016-17: 47.5%
2015-16: 48.8%
2014-15: 53.5%
2013-14: 54.8%
2012-13: 53.6%
2011-12: 48.4%
2010-11: 50.9%
2009-10: 53.1%
2008-09: 50.7%

I take back what I said . . . turns out we had a better A/FGM ratio in 2017-18 than we've had in a LONG time. And by comparison, Villanova posted a 53.7% ratio this past season. Even despite the flaws, we were a pretty damn good offense this year. The only weakness was a relatively high number of turnovers. If only we had shot 3s around our season average in Omaha . . .

JasonEvans
04-17-2018, 03:29 PM
As some have clearly noted, I can't see why any team would not play a zone against Duke next year until we show we can hit the outside shots. Playing man to man vs this set of athletes, (with a PG like Jones) would seem to be pretty risky.

It is worth noting that shooting over a zone is not the only way to beat it. In fact, as we saw quite often this year, teams generally try to penetrate into the middle of a zone (through a pass or a hard dribble) which can cause chaos for the zoning team. RJ, Cam, and Zion could be absolute beasts doing this against a zone.

If merely playing zone was a good way to stop RJ Barrett, he would not have had this immense level of success in major international and all-star tournaments.

Kedsy
04-17-2018, 04:30 PM
So I got curious, and calculated this stat over the past 10 years:

2017-18: 57.6% A/FGM
2016-17: 47.5%
2015-16: 48.8%
2014-15: 53.5%
2013-14: 54.8%
2012-13: 53.6%
2011-12: 48.4%
2010-11: 50.9%
2009-10: 53.1%
2008-09: 50.7%

I take back what I said . . . turns out we had a better A/FGM ratio in 2017-18 than we've had in a LONG time. And by comparison, Villanova posted a 53.7% ratio this past season. Even despite the flaws, we were a pretty damn good offense this year. The only weakness was a relatively high number of turnovers. If only we had shot 3s around our season average in Omaha . . .

I went even further back. The last season Duke had a higher assist to made field goal ratio than this season was 1991-92 (58.9%). We had exactly the same assist to made field goal ratio in 2000-01 (57.6%). Pretty heady company, at least for that stat.

CDu
04-17-2018, 05:20 PM
So I got curious, and calculated this stat over the past 10 years:

2017-18: 57.6% A/FGM
2016-17: 47.5%
2015-16: 48.8%
2014-15: 53.5%
2013-14: 54.8%
2012-13: 53.6%
2011-12: 48.4%
2010-11: 50.9%
2009-10: 53.1%
2008-09: 50.7%

I take back what I said . . . turns out we had a better A/FGM ratio in 2017-18 than we've had in a LONG time. And by comparison, Villanova posted a 53.7% ratio this past season. Even despite the flaws, we were a pretty damn good offense this year. The only weakness was a relatively high number of turnovers. If only we had shot 3s around our season average in Omaha . . .

Or even made just one more. Or had Allen’s bank shot fallen.

CDu
04-17-2018, 05:41 PM
Isn't that typical Coach K this year? Excellent offense, questionable defense? And Coach K either fixes the D (2015, 2018) or he doesn't (2012, 2016, 2017).

Yes, exactly.


While I am not worried about our offensive efficiency, I am worried about our 3pt shooting. There are some things that coaches love and teams will be good regardless of the personnel. RoyWill loves rebounding. He had an undersized team this year and his team did a great job of rebounding. Coach K loves 3pt shooting. But can our personnel hit enough 3s? I have no idea. My gut tells me one of Zion, RJ, or Tre will be better than expected 3pt shooter (like Trent this year). I just have no idea who.

If you are not worried about our offensive efficiency, why are you worried about our 3pt shooting? The latter is just a subset factor contributing to the former.

That being said, while I doubt we'll have two guys shooting 40% from 3 next year, I think between O'Connell (who I DO expect to shoot over 40% on 3s), Reddish (I'd expect over 35% from him), and Williamson and Barrett (I'd expect 30+% from them) I think we'll shoot it well enough. And if either of Williamson or Barrett joins Reddish and O'Connell as good shooters, then we will be more than fine on 3s.

I think we're going to get a lot of open looks from 3 just by virtue of defenses having to overcompensate to defend our myriad of talented drivers. That's going to make guys look better than they "really" are. In-game 3pt %s are always well below uncontested rhythm 3pt %s like you see in warmups/practice. But with next year's team, I think we'll get a higher percentage of attempts that are closer in nature to those practice 3s. So while I don't think we'll have as talented a shooting team, I think the easier looks will help hide some of that deficiency.

And you never know. We've had many guys who got better at 3pt shooting after coming to Duke. So it isn't unheard of for a guy like Barrett or Williamson to become an option after arriving.

Troublemaker
04-18-2018, 02:05 PM
FYI, Sam Vecenie and Cole Zwicker break down some Hoop Summit players at the end of their latest Game Theory Podcast.

If you have it downloaded, the Hoop Summit stuff starts just after 1 hour, 22 minutes into the pod.

They rave about RJ, fyi.

https://gametheorysam.libsyn.com/nba-playoffs-first-weekend-breakdown-hoop-summit-scouting

Zwicker goes in depth on several of the Team USA Hoop Summit players for an article he wrote at The Stepien. (https://www.thestepien.com/2018/04/18/nike-hoop-summit-team-usa-prospects-recap/)

Both Cam and Tre are covered pretty extensively.

Here's his article for the World Team, which I haven't read, but I assume he'll go in depth on RJ. (https://www.thestepien.com/2018/04/18/nike-hoop-summit-world-team-prospects-recap/)

flyingdutchdevil
04-18-2018, 02:30 PM
Zwicker goes in depth on several of the Team USA Hoop Summit players for an article he wrote at The Stepien. (https://www.thestepien.com/2018/04/18/nike-hoop-summit-team-usa-prospects-recap/)

Both Cam and Tre are covered pretty extensively.

Here's his article for the World Team, which I haven't read, but I assume he'll go in depth on RJ. (https://www.thestepien.com/2018/04/18/nike-hoop-summit-world-team-prospects-recap/)

Thanks for posting. These are great. Nothing really new, but I like how the author went into the negatives of each recruit. Sounds like Tre isn't any

The "Cam v RJ" debate will rage on for a long, long time. Scouts make it seem like they are polar opposites of each other: one plays with a competitive fire that few can match, the other plays with no competitive fire. One has incredible size and solid athleticism but doesn't really use it to his advantage all the time, the other has good size and incredible athleticism and relishes contact.

The NBA scouts are going to be in Cameron on mass next year.

proelitedota
04-18-2018, 02:40 PM
What's interesting is that all the 2-4 position of next year can be pretty switchable on offense too if the players made big improvements before and at Duke.

Zion slimming down to 230-240, getting quicker, and improving his shooting.
Barrett adding a reliable 3.
Reddish putting on weight and becoming more assertive.

It's like having Winslow (Zion), Tatum (Barrett), Reddish (Ingram) on one team.

3 Winslows would also be fine. :rolleyes:

Theoretically how well would a team with 3 Winslows work in the college game?

Rich
04-18-2018, 03:20 PM
Thanks for posting. These are great. Nothing really new, but I like how the author went into the negatives of each recruit. Sounds like Tre isn't any

Not sure if this is intended to be a fill in the blank, but I would finish it with "anywhere near the shooter his brother is at this point, according to Cole Zwicker."

flyingdutchdevil
04-18-2018, 03:48 PM
Not sure if this is intended to be a fill in the blank, but I would finish it with "anywhere near the shooter his brother is at this point, according to Cole Zwicker."

Whoops. That’s exactly what I was going to say. Tre and Duval may be more similar than we think.

NSDukeFan
04-18-2018, 03:51 PM
Thanks for posting. These are great. Nothing really new, but I like how the author went into the negatives of each recruit. Sounds like Tre isn't any

The "Cam v RJ" debate will rage on for a long, long time. Scouts make it seem like they are polar opposites of each other: one plays with a competitive fire that few can match, the other plays with no competitive fire. One has incredible size and solid athleticism but doesn't really use it to his advantage all the time, the other has good size and incredible athleticism and relishes contact.

The NBA scouts are going to be in Cameron on mass next year.

At least for the Sunday games? Or mostly the heaviest scouts?

Rich
04-18-2018, 03:56 PM
The NBA scouts are going to be in Cameron on mass next year.


At least for the Sunday games?

Psalm 132:13: For the Lord has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his dwelling place.

CDu
04-18-2018, 04:04 PM
Whoops. That’s exactly what I was going to say. Tre and Duval may be more similar than we think.

I think they are probably similar as shooters right now. I think that's probably the only similarity on a micro level. I think Jones has a much better feel for the game. But he's far less gifted athletically. On a macro level, I think they'll provide somewhat similar production. Maybe fewer assists and fewer turnovers for Jones than Duval, and definitely fewer "wow" plays from Jones.

And there is a chance that Jones progresses on his jumper at Duke. I wouldn't expect the same progression his brother made (Tyus wasn't a great shooter when he arrived, but got there quickly). But hopefully that skill evolves for Tre while at Duke.

CDu
04-18-2018, 04:11 PM
It's like having Winslow (Zion), Tatum (Barrett), Reddish (Ingram) on one team.

I don't think Williamson compares much to Winslow. He's way bigger (both height and weight) and a better leaper. He's not as quick as Winslow, and I don't expect him to be as versatile as Winslow was defensively (Winslow could guard 1-4 pretty darn well; I think Williamson will be more of a 3-5 defender, and more 4-5 than 3). I don't know if Williamson will be a good or bad defender, but I don't think he'll defend much like Winslow regardless of quality. Conversely, I'd expect Williamson to be a more effective offensive weapon due to his physicality, athleticism, and ballhandling (he's got a really low dribble, which should allow him to attack the basket inside more easily).

I think the three actually pair fairly well. Williamson and Barrett are more drive-heavy players, while Reddish is more of a drift around the perimeter type (technically, he can do all of it, but he seems happy to drift around the perimeter). I'd love to see a Williamson/Barrett pick-and-roll, or either of those guys running the pick and roll with Bolden.

flyingdutchdevil
04-18-2018, 04:16 PM
I don't think Williamson compares much to Winslow. He's way bigger (both height and weight) and a better leaper. He's not as quick as Winslow, and I don't expect him to be as versatile as Winslow was defensively (Winslow could guard 1-4 pretty darn well; I think Williamson will be more of a 3-5 defender, and more 4-5 than 3). I don't know if Williamson will be a good or bad defender, but I don't think he'll defend much like Winslow regardless of quality. Conversely, I'd expect Williamson to be a more effective offensive weapon due to his physicality, athleticism, and ballhandling (he's got a really low dribble, which should allow him to attack the basket inside more easily).

I think the three actually pair fairly well. Williamson and Barrett are more drive-heavy players, while Reddish is more of a drift around the perimeter type (technically, he can do all of it, but he seems happy to drift around the perimeter). I'd love to see a Williamson/Barrett pick-and-roll, or either of those guys running the pick and roll with Bolden.

Actually, Zion measures 6'5" without shoes. Winslow measures 6'4.5" without shoes. To me, that's pretty much a wash. You're absolutely right on the weight and athleticism, but Zion and Winslow are both very physical dudes. I think that's what the OP was getting at moreso than their games.

I like the Cam/Ingram comparison a lot, but Cam is much more cerebral and Ingram is much longer. Ingram came into Duke with a similar reputation as Cam has now. To me, that bodes very well for Duke.