Who's Leaving - Duke 2018

[SoCalDukeFan]

Since the Kansas game post-game thread has a lot of OAD stuff, I thought I would start a thread on whose leaving.

Grayson for sure.

I would assume Wendell and Marvin. NBADraft.net has them 2 and 7. They also look like NBA players to me.

Travon and Gary are projected for the first round. Personally I think they both are not ready.

Marquez is not listed. I think he will be a good NBA player someday. Hope he comes back.

Its silly to me for a player to leave for the NBA because he will not much playing time at Duke next year.

SoCa;

[UrinalCake]

I would assume Trevon is more likely to go than Gary. His game is more suited to the pros, he’s going to measure well at the combine, and he just seems like a player who was planning to leave after a year regardless. I would love to have him back but I am not counting on it.

I’m still holding out hope that Gary comes back. I think he was projected in the 40’s in a recent mock, and while he has good size he does not have elite athleticism and is such a streaky shooter. He is almost exclusively a spot up shooter, he hasn’t developed a catch and shoot, he has limited handles, and he is extremely poor finishing at the rim. He also gets very few assists. Basically I think he has a lot to work on.

Bolden made great strides late in the season and would have the post to himself after sharing it with two future lottery picks. I could see him putting his name in and going through the evaluation process, and once a player does that then all bets are off.

[gwlaw99]

Here is a list of almost every mock draft. Gary and Trevon are not in every one in the first round. So the big questions is, if neither is told they will be drafted in the first round, will they go?

http://www.letsgoredskins.com/NBAMocks.htm

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Well here’s the conundrum of recruiting multiple top 10 prospects year after year:

If Duval and Trent stay next year, do they even start?

Gary maybe would, but Trey Jones is our starting PG next year, Duval or no Duval.

And that’s not a knock on Duval and Trent - it’s just that next years guys are that good.

I actually think Gary would be a huge weapon for us next year, in the JJ Redick 2004 mode, as outside shooting will be hard to find outside of AOC.

In a perfect world, Duval realizes he needs more seasoning and stays two more years while Trent stays next year to work on his handle, defense, and passing.

But the reality is both are likely gone, imo.

[sagegrouse]

Sorry, but I guess I am grumpy today. (Why would that be?)

You shoudln't title the thread or your post, "Whose Leaving." It's "Who Is Leaving?" or "Who's Leaving?"

[UrinalCake]

Why does everyone assume Jones is better than Duval? A year ago we were salivating over Duval as being the point guard of our dreams, the missing piece that we didn’t have the previous season. We drooled over his mix tapes and imagined him being the next guy to lead us to a title.

[Ian]

Yup, when you recruit 4 top 10 players for next year, you are essential pushing players out the door even if they might benefit from coming back. That option is more or less removed from Trent or Duval regardless of their draft status. Even if they are 2nd rounders, they pretty much have to go.

[DukieTiger]

Well here’s the conundrum of recruiting multiple top 10 prospects year after year:

If Duval and Trent stay next year, do they even start?

Gary maybe would, but Trey Jones is our starting PG next year, Duval or no Duval.

And that’s not a knock on Duval and Trent - it’s just that next years guys are that good.

I actually think Gary would be a huge weapon for us next year, in the JJ Redick 2004 mode, as outside shooting will be hard to find outside of AOC.

In a perfect world, Duval realizes he needs more seasoning and stays two more years while Trent stays next year to work on his handle, defense, and passing.

But the reality is both are likely gone, imo.

My dream staring lineup for next year is Jones, Trent, Barrett, Reddish, Zion - I share that not to get a jump on the 2019 lineup/minutes thread, but to say that I think next year’s roster has the positional flexibility to find a place for GT. I think Duval is gone, so I’m not worried about finding a spot for him. But I have the slightest hope that Gary does decide to return, because I think he’d be the leader on next year’s team.

[jipops]

Well here’s the conundrum of recruiting multiple top 10 prospects year after year:

If Duval and Trent stay next year, do they even start?

Gary maybe would, but Trey Jones is our starting PG next year, Duval or no Duval.

And that’s not a knock on Duval and Trent - it’s just that next years guys are that good.

I actually think Gary would be a huge weapon for us next year, in the JJ Redick 2004 mode, as outside shooting will be hard to find outside of AOC.

In a perfect world, Duval realizes he needs more seasoning and stays two more years while Trent stays next year to work on his handle, defense, and passing.

But the reality is both are likely gone, imo.

I think the only real question mark here is Bolden. The four freshmen are a sure thing to bolt. Marques is an interesting case though. He's had a few injury issues in his two years and his play has been very limited along with that. I also think K has never felt comfortable giving him extended minutes for a variety of reasons, one of which is that K will habitually keep is rotation short and ride his starters to the bitter end. So Marques has occasionally shown some decent moves yet also has looked a little over matched at times. He may just decide on giving it a go anyways just by virtue of being a 6-11 guy who got some hype out of high school and played for Duke. 2 years ago, I'm sure he thought he would be gone by this point. It's a risk for him either way. Go now and get picked up in the 2nd round working the D league for a few years trying to make a team... OR... come back and risk injury thereby taking him off the draft boards once again as a junior... OR... come back and be the lone focal point in the post for a team loaded with perimeter guys, show effectiveness on both ends, and impress just enough scouts to get his name somewhere near the 1st round board.

I think Duke will be a much better team with Marques in the post next season. He's not going to be a major focal point in the offense but he'll get a ton of burn and provide some desperately needed rebounding. Without him, Duke will basically be like the '13-'14 team that is forced to use a small forward at center. We'd put some points on the board but defense would be a huge struggle.

[El_Diablo]

Since the Kansas game post-game thread has a lot of OAD stuff, I thought I would start a thread on whose leaving.

Grayson for sure.

I would assume Wendell and Marvin. NBADraft.net has them 2 and 7. They also look like NBA players to me.

Travon and Gary are projected for the first round. Personally I think they both are not ready.

Marquez is not listed. I think he will be a good NBA player someday. Hope he comes back.

Its silly to me for a player to leave for the NBA because he will not much playing time at Duke next year.

SoCa;

I would bet a lot of money that there will be no “Travon” or “Marquez” on next year’s roster.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Sorry, but I guess I am grumpy today. (Why would that be?)

You shoudln't title the thread or your post, "Whose Leaving." It's "Who Is Leaving?" or "Who's Leaving?"
Thanks

I should not post after self medicating to get over tough losses.

SoCal

[uh_no]

people hem and haw every year that some people might come back....but all 5 starters are leaving. don't set yourselves up for disappointment. It's nice to think in dream worlds where any of those guys come back....but they're gone.

I wish they WOULD stay....but they won't.

[kAzE]

Of the starters, I think only Gary is possibly coming back. But it wouldn't be surprising at all if the entire starting lineup leaves for the NBA. Trevon seems like a Dejounte Murray type player, and should get drafted late first round based on his incredible measurables. I think Gary would go early in the 2nd round, like Frank Jackson. I believe Bolden will return. He's showed a lot of improvement since his freshman year, but I think he needs one more year.

If Gary comes back, he's starting and he's probably a captain. I would not be surprised at all if we went with a Zion/Cam/Trent/Barrett/Jones starting lineup. That squad would run and gun like nothing we've ever seen on a Duke team before.

If Gary leaves, We would be more of a half court team with Bolden at center. Personally, I'm not sure if Bolden will be ready for 30+ minutes a game next year, but if he is, he'll be a monster.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I think the only real question mark here is Bolden. The four freshmen are a sure thing to bolt. Marques is an interesting case though. He's had a few injury issues in his two years and his play has been very limited along with that. I also think K has never felt comfortable giving him extended minutes for a variety of reasons, one of which is that K will habitually keep is rotation short and ride his starters to the bitter end. So Marques has occasionally shown some decent moves yet also has looked a little over matched at times. He may just decide on giving it a go anyways just by virtue of being a 6-11 guy who got some hype out of high school and played for Duke. 2 years ago, I'm sure he thought he would be gone by this point. It's a risk for him either way. Go now and get picked up in the 2nd round working the D league for a few years trying to make a team... OR... come back and risk injury thereby taking him off the draft boards once again as a junior... OR... come back and be the lone focal point in the post for a team loaded with perimeter guys, show effectiveness on both ends, and impress just enough scouts to get his name somewhere near the 1st round board.

I think Duke will be a much better team with Marques in the post next season. He's not going to be a major focal point in the offense but he'll get a ton of burn and provide some desperately needed rebounding. Without him, Duke will basically be like the '13-'14 team that is forced to use a small forward at center. We'd put some points on the board but defense would be a huge struggle.

No doubt about Bolden’s impact next year. Potentially huge for him.

Much like MP2 returning for his Senior year, I hope Marques sees how he can really better position his pro career by being more of a focal point next year.

... And your mention of the playing style of the 2014 squad made me shutter.

[Wander]

Why does everyone assume Jones is better than Duval? A year ago we were salivating over Duval as being the point guard of our dreams, the missing piece that we didn’t have the previous season. We drooled over his mix tapes and imagined him being the next guy to lead us to a title.

As someone who thought Duval was pretty bad this year... I completely agree. I think he'd be really good (like, 1st team ACC type of good) as a sophomore if he came back. His weaknesses are things that would have chances for large improvement during an offseason.

[Furniture]

Why does everyone assume Jones is better than Duval? A year ago we were salivating over Duval as being the point guard of our dreams, the missing piece that we didn’t have the previous season. We drooled over his mix tapes and imagined him being the next guy to lead us to a title.

I may end up feeling sorry for Jones. The grumpy mob on this forum who expects perfection may rip him to shreds..

[kAzE]

Why does everyone assume Jones is better than Duval? A year ago we were salivating over Duval as being the point guard of our dreams, the missing piece that we didn’t have the previous season. We drooled over his mix tapes and imagined him being the next guy to lead us to a title.

Personally, I think if Tre Duval inexplicably decided to come back, he would start over Tre Jones, but both would play a lot. I think Jones looks like a slightly better decision maker coming in as a freshman, but Duval really improved towards the end of the year, and an off season would probably give him a huge lead over the younger Jones. He's also just in a different class than Jones as an athlete. He can do things that Tre just can't physically do.

If anybody's wondering, Tre Jones is also somewhat of a non-shooter from deep, at least in high school. He is a very good free throw shooter (80.1% career), but is 32.5% from 3 over his 4 years in high school. His senior year was his worst from 3. He shot 29 for 108 (26.9%) Hopefully his shot translates better to the college game. It would be nice to have a point guard capable of hitting 3s.

[DukieTiger]

Personally, I think if Tre Duval inexplicably decided to come back, he would start over Tre Jones, but both would play a lot. I think Jones looks like a slightly better decision maker coming in as a freshman, but Duval really improved towards the end of the year, and an off season would probably give him a huge lead over the younger Jones. He's also just in a different class than Jones as an athlete. He can do things that Tre just can't physically do.

If anybody's wondering, Tre Jones is also somewhat of a non-shooter from deep, at least in high school. I think his career 3 point percentage is in the 20s.

Per Apple Valley, he’s a career 32.5% 3pt shooter (just high school, not travel) and an 80% ft shooter.

He’s a much better shooter than Duval.

[kAzE]

Per Apple Valley, he’s a career 32.5% 3pt shooter (just high school, not travel) and an 80% ft shooter.

He’s a much better shooter than Duval.

I looked up his stats and edited my post :)

I still think Duval would be a no brainer to start between the 2. It wouldn't be close, IMO. You know what they always say: "The best thing about freshmen is that they become sophomores."

But this is pointless. Duval is going pro.

[Ian]

Personally, I think if Tre Duval inexplicably decided to come back, he would start over Tre Jones, but both would play a lot. I think Jones looks like a slightly better decision maker coming in as a freshman, but Duval really improved towards the end of the year, and an off season would probably give him a huge lead over the younger Jones. He's also just in a different class than Jones as an athlete. He can do things that Tre just can't physically do.

If anybody's wondering, Tre Jones is also somewhat of a non-shooter from deep, at least in high school. He is a very good free throw shooter (80.1% career), but is 32.5% from 3 over his 4 years in high school. His senior year was his worst from 3. He shot 29 for 108 (26.9%) Hopefully his shot translates better to the college game. It would be nice to have a point guard capable of hitting 3s.

In HS he always has the ball in his hands and is shooting them off the dribble, which is the least accurate way to shoot. Nobody is kicking it out to him to catch and shoot, not to mention he has to force it up a bunch because he's the best scoring option on the team. Top HS guards all generally get a big bump in 3 pt accuracy transitioning to college because they take much better shots in college.

[Steven43]

I actually think Gary would be a huge weapon for us next year, in the JJ Redick 2004 mode, as outside shooting will be hard to find outside of AOC.

In a perfect world, Duval realizes he needs more seasoning and stays two more years while Trent stays next year to work on his handle, defense, and passing.

But the reality is both are likely gone, imo.
Wait, what?! Did you really just compare Trent’s outside shot to that of JJ? Trent’s is not in the same zip code. I mean, sure, I hope he comes back, but JJ he is not.

And I would love to see Duval come back for two more years. Heck, one more year would be great. I can’t imagine he would be high on NBA lists. He is very athletic, but a below average shooter. And it’s a shooters league. From what I’ve seen of guards over the years if they are not a good shooter on the college level they certainly are not on the NBA level.

[Steven43]

I may end up feeling sorry for Jones. The grumpy mob on this forum who expects perfection may rip him to shreds..

Yep, there is some truth in what you say. It IS a grumpy mob tonight, myself included. But just think about what happened earlier in the evening. And add it to the fact that the Syracuse game was absolutely excruciating to watch. It’s been a tough three days, especially after the promise of the opening two rounds.

[OZ]

Since the Kansas game post-game thread has a lot of OAD stuff, I thought I would start a thread on whose leaving.

Grayson for sure.

I would assume Wendell and Marvin. NBADraft.net has them 2 and 7. They also look like NBA players to me.

Travon and Gary are projected for the first round. Personally I think they both are not ready.

Marquez is not listed. I think he will be a good NBA player someday. Hope he comes back.

Its silly to me for a player to leave for the NBA because he will not much playing time at Duke next year.

SoCa;

I think the starting five will be gone.

Personally, I agree, that Trent and Duval do not appear to be ready. But, I have discovered that my opinion on "NBA readiness" is worthless. I look for both to go... perhaps choosing to test the situation and not hire an agent at first. But, I truly would be surprised if any of them return.
To me, the biggest question is what does Bolden do? I think he is too invested in terms of years to transfer... and I don't see any interest in any of the early drafts. Hopefully, he will stay... judging by his improvement this year, he should be a much better player next year. A Duke education would not be a bad investment.

[Natty_B]

Yep, there is some truth in what you say. It IS a grumpy mob tonight, myself included. But just think about what happened earlier in the evening. And add it to the fact that the Syracuse game was absolutely excruciating to watch. It’s been a tough three days, especially after the promise of the opening two rounds.

LOL to a complaint about the aesthetic value of a win. A win!! In the sweet 16. Against a Cuse team known for making games ugly. Before the Cuse game Duke was 5-8 in sweet 16 games this century (plenty of times they didn’t even get to one). If you can’t be happy winning sweet 16 games, regardless of watchability, against a vaunted 2-3 zone that had just dispatched Michigan St and their lotto picks, you should probably become a UConn Women’s hoops fan.

In terms of next year the freshman sans O’Connell are gone. Bolden maybe, he seemed to start finally enjoying himself once he came back from his knee injury. That might make him decide to stay.

[JNort]

I would say 4 of the starters are gone 100% with the only question being Trent. Allen, Bags and Carter are obvious. Duval is gonna test well at the combine due to his athleticism and his game is better suited to the open floor and speed of the NBA. I think he will stay in if he even gets a 2nd round guarantee.

Now Trent on the other hand... average size, average athleticism and streaky shooter who wasn't strong enough in the paint. He could return and make a push for a lottery pick next year if he becomes a more consistent shooter, defends better and adds a floater to his game.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

And here I thought this thread might be about actual news of who was leaving, not emotional discussions over who ought to leave.

Naive me.

[Steven43]

LOL to a complaint about the aesthetic value of a win. A win!! In the sweet 16. Against a Cuse team known for making games ugly. Before the Cuse game Duke was 5-8 in sweet 16 games this century (plenty of times they didn’t even get to one). If you can’t be happy winning sweet 16 games, regardless of watchability, against a vaunted 2-3 zone that had just dispatched Michigan St and their lotto picks, you should probably become a UConn Women’s hoops fan.

In terms of next year the freshman sans O’Connell are gone. Bolden maybe, he seemed to start finally enjoying himself once he came back from his knee injury. That might make him decide to stay.
You honestly didn’t find the Syracuse game excruciating and nerve-wracking to watch? At least five DBR posters said something similar and my friends who are Duke fans echoed those sentiments. So then, jolly for you that watching the ‘Cuse game was a carefree, joyous affair while many of the rest of us found it to be a frustrating, brutal slugfest that was a very tough watch. And the UConn comment was laughably off-base. I can’t stand UConn and always root for them to lose.

[heyman25]

I did not want to start a new thread, but I think Duke should consider graduating transfers that have 1 year of eligibility left. I think the 4 starting freshmen will all be leaving. Duval and Trent Jr might not make the first round of the NBA draft, but I think they appear to stay on a 1 and done plan. Not sure how those guys would feel about getting less playing time in their sophmore year.

I think Barrett and Reddish will be outstanding. Williamson and Jones may not be as mindblowing talents as Barrett and Reddish,but will deliver on the court.
Bolden and DeLaurier need to spend extra hours working on their shooting. White Vrankovic O'Connell Robinson and Goldwire will give us a better bench than this season's team did.

[Nugget]

I think the only real question mark here is Bolden. The four freshmen are a sure thing to bolt. Marques is an interesting case though. He's had a few injury issues in his two years and his play has been very limited along with that. I also think K has never felt comfortable giving him extended minutes for a variety of reasons, one of which is that K will habitually keep is rotation short and ride his starters to the bitter end. So Marques has occasionally shown some decent moves yet also has looked a little over matched at times. He may just decide on giving it a go anyways just by virtue of being a 6-11 guy who got some hype out of high school and played for Duke. 2 years ago, I'm sure he thought he would be gone by this point. It's a risk for him either way. Go now and get picked up in the 2nd round working the D league for a few years trying to make a team... OR... come back and risk injury thereby taking him off the draft boards once again as a junior... OR... come back and be the lone focal point in the post for a team loaded with perimeter guys, show effectiveness on both ends, and impress just enough scouts to get his name somewhere near the 1st round board.

I think Duke will be a much better team with Marques in the post next season. He's not going to be a major focal point in the offense but he'll get a ton of burn and provide some desperately needed rebounding. Without him, Duke will basically be like the '13-'14 team that is forced to use a small forward at center. We'd put some points on the board but defense would be a huge struggle.

Bolden isn't remotely a draft prospect this year. If he goes, it's to the G league or Turkey. Seems a no-brainer decision to me to come back, hopefully be fully healthy and start at C next year for a team that should be able to space the floor better.

Trent really ought to come back, but I see almost zero chance of that.

[OZ]

And here I thought this thread might be about actual news of who was leaving, not emotional discussions over who ought to leave.

Naive me.

Welcome. Obviously, you are new to DBR :)

[Dukebasketball2020]

If I were Duke I would persue some big's that are grad transfers. Bolden may start next year but you never know is he gonna stay healthy? out of foul trouble? He def isn't ready for 30 minutes a night. Davier is decent but you get no offense out of him. Hopefully we land EJ Montgomery.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Wait, what?! Did you really just compare Trent’s outside shot to that of JJ? Trent’s is not in the same zip code. I mean, sure, I hope he comes back, but JJ he is not.

And I would love to see Duval come back for two more years. Heck, one more year would be great. I can’t imagine he would be high on NBA lists. He is very athletic, but a below average shooter. And it’s a shooters league. From what I’ve seen of guards over the years if they are not a good shooter on the college level they certainly are not on the NBA level.

I don’t want to take this thread way off-topic but I’ll just say this:

JJ Redick was much more than just a 3-point shooter. He was a prolific, crafty, scorer of the ball.

When I’m comparing Trent to Redick, it’s that scoring ability(shooting, FT’s, drives, floaters) that I’m referencing.

[Dukebasketball2020]

I think Trent and Duval make the most sense at coming back. When comparing Frank Jackson and Trent I think Jackson was a better all around player and I thought he left way to early. Duval is borderline first round maybe 2nd. If he improved his outside shot and FT shooting he could easily become a top 15 pick next year. Trent though would be playing with his old highschool teamate in Jones plus the final four is in MINN next year his home town state. When I look at the NBA mock draft they don't even list Malik Newman which is surprising I think he is a better all around player than Trent currently.

[weezie]

...I believe Bolden will return. He's showed a lot of improvement since his freshman year, but I think he needs one more year...Personally, I'm not sure if Bolden will be ready for 30+ minutes a game next year, but if he is, he'll be a monster.

I think he's due to stay because he's not 100% yet. That brace isn't just for decoration. Another year of strength and hardening and lateral moving improvement might push him into the top 15.
I wonder if he has the court personality of a monster, I see him more as a finesse guy. He'll be working on the outlet passes this summer wherever he is.

And PS, NOW what am I going to do every morning when it's time to check in at DBR? Ugh, trudge to work and workouts? :(

[IrishDevil]

I don’t want to take this thread way off-topic but I’ll just say this:

JJ Redick was much more than just a 3-point shooter. He was a prolific, crafty, scorer of the ball.

When I’m comparing Trent to Redick, it’s that scoring ability(shooting, FT’s, drives, floaters) that I’m referencing.

Not to respond off-topic, but yes, in his senior season and, to a lesser extent, his junior season, JJ could score in multiple ways. In 2004, however, which was the year you specifically referenced, sophomore JJ was an exceptionally dangerous shooting specialist complementing Duhon, Ewing, Deng, and Shelden. Trent is not in that same conversation.

[flyingdutchdevil]

That was the assumption heading into the season, and nothing has really changed.

Yes, there are a ton of red flags for Trevon (he can't shoot, he turns the ball over some), but he is seeing a lot of competition next year and will likely get squeezed out. Also, he had 3 out of 4 really good tournament games. His stock went up.

With Trent, he didn't showcase a lot of his skillset this year. His shot is really good, and he's got some midrange. But little driving, little playmaking, little posting up...Trent's skillset was half-hidden. Which may be a great thing for the draft as folks will be addressing him on what they know (really good shooter, great FT shooter, mediocre D) moreso than what they don't. And Trent won't exactly work on those skills next year as 3 of the 4 freshman are more talented than he is. Trent again may have to be that off-ball guy who takes 12-15 shots a game. Not sure that's enticing for Trent at this point.

Also, when you have the #1 HS PG, the #2 HS SG, the #1 HS PF, and the #2 HS PF/C, it's a safe assumption to make they're gone after a year.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Not to respond off-topic, but yes, in his senior season and, to a lesser extent, his junior season, JJ could score in multiple ways. In 2004, however, which was the year you specifically referenced, sophomore JJ was an exceptionally dangerous shooting specialist complementing Duhon, Ewing, Deng, and Shelden. Trent is not in that same conversation.

Agreed. It's like saying Grayson was like Grant Hill. Really?

[dukebluesincebirth]

All the starters + Bolden are gone.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If I were Duke I would persue some big's that are grad transfers. Bolden may start next year but you never know is he gonna stay healthy? out of foul trouble? He def isn't ready for 30 minutes a night. Davier is decent but you get no offense out of him. Hopefully we land EJ Montgomery.

Not the only reply mentioning grad transfers, but the first one I saw scrolling back up.

So... The answer to Duke's OAD recruiting of guys that stay for one year is to balance it with older guys that stay for one year?

No thank you.

Also, to your points on Bolden - he seems to finally be rounding into the player we hoped we would see. I would much rather give him more minutes and reward an upperclassman for hard work and perseverance than bring in a transfers - especially with the talent we have coming in already.

Let's go Duke!

[flyingdutchdevil]

All the starters + Bolden are gone.

Could be. I wouldn't be surprised.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Not to respond off-topic, but yes, in his senior season and, to a lesser extent, his junior season, JJ could score in multiple ways. In 2004, however, which was the year you specifically referenced, sophomore JJ was an exceptionally dangerous shooting specialist complementing Duhon, Ewing, Deng, and Shelden. Trent is not in that same conversation.

Sophomore year Redick - 39.5% from 3(7 shots per game), attempting 4 2pt shots per game @ 47%.

Freshmen year Trent jr - 40.2% from 3(6.5 shots per game), attempting 5 2pt shots per game @ 43%.

Imo, Gary Trent Jr, if he were to return, should most definitely be projected to have a “2004 Redick-like” year, and maybe even better.

[Troublemaker]

Personally, I'm not sure if Bolden will be ready for 30+ minutes a game next year, but if he is, he'll be a monster.


If I were Duke I would persue some big's that are grad transfers. Bolden may start next year but you never know is he gonna stay healthy? out of foul trouble? He def isn't ready for 30 minutes a night. Davier is decent but you get no offense out of him. Hopefully we land EJ Montgomery.

Marques wouldn't have to play 30+ minutes. Javin and potentially Zion will be part of that center rotation.

I think Marques would start and play about 20-24 mpg. That's the next, reasonable step for him. He'll need a big, healthy offseason to get there.

[Dukehky]

Whole starting 5 gone.

Wouldn't be totally shocked to see some other departures, although I think it's unlikely. Don't know who or why, but gotta think there are some dudes on the bench who want to play.

[IrishDevil]

Sophomore year Redick - 39.5% from 3(7 shots per game), attempting 4 2pt shots per game @ 47%.

Freshmen year Trent jr - 40.2% from 3(6.5 shots per game), attempting 5 2pt shots per game @ 43%.

Imo, Gary Trent Jr, if he were to return, should most definitely be projected to have a “2004 Redick-like” year, and maybe even better.

I'll admit, my perception of Gary's shooting was off - when he was on, he was dangerous, but his shot seemed to wander off fairly often, and that led me to discount his admirable shooting percentage.

But, what you said was:




JJ Redick was much more than just a 3-point shooter. He was a prolific, crafty, scorer of the ball.

When I’m comparing Trent to Redick, it’s that scoring ability(shooting, FT’s, drives, floaters) that I’m referencing.

Both from my memory and from the stats you cite, JJ was a three point specialist who hit less than two shots inside the arc per game, not a prolific, crafty scorer of the ball. 2004 JJ was a bomber to whom you also got the ball at the end of the game so you could watch your opponents cry after intentionally fouling. He developed his deadlier mid-range and driving game later in his career.

Trent might have it in him to become a JJ-like shooter if he gains more consistency - again, he is solid percentage-wise, just super streaky right now, and his FT percentage is actually encouraging in this regard - but to become 2004 JJ, he would also have to not improve his game inside the arc at all and use it a little less often. I agree with your original post, that Gary could absolutely become a weapon next season, but I think that weapon would likely be a less focused, more multi-faceted weapon than 2004 JJ.

[killerleft]

Why does everyone assume Jones is better than Duval? A year ago we were salivating over Duval as being the point guard of our dreams, the missing piece that we didn’t have the previous season. We drooled over his mix tapes and imagined him being the next guy to lead us to a title.

This can't be emphasized enough. I would assume that Duval will have to LOSE the point guard position before Jones can take it.

The whole shebang depends on how Coach K decides to use Duval (if he returns).

Sadly, I think Trevon is gone. If he leaves, TREY will have all the pressure on HIS shoulders.

Come back, Trevon!

[rtnorthrup]

There is a huge disconnect these days between the NBA and college basketball, that is only partially explained by the one-and-done players. Quite simply, NBA evaluators don't value experience as highly as potential. The NBA would rather train a young player in the league than see them develop in the college game. For the McDonald's All-Americans that Duke recruits, the only questions are 1) what is my current NBA value, and 2) would that value significantly increase if I return to school. For the most part, the answer to #2 is usually no.

Take for example Gary Trent Jr. The NBA knows what he is. He is a spot up 3 shooter, good mid-range game, average to below average 1on1 defender, average ball handler/creator, and gives very little at the rim scoring. None of that is likely to change if he comes back to school. I don't mean that as a negative. He can put the ball in the basket at an NBA level, and that has value. He will likely be a back half of the first round, early 2nd candidate. But there is little upside coming back to college.

The only player in our starting 5 that I can make an argument for returning is Duval. I think his NBA value right now is significantly lower than his talent level, given that he struggled at times this season. If Duval comes back and improves his free throw percentage and field goal percentages >10%, and decreases his TO ratio, I honestly think he would see his draft stock go way up. Duval is a below average shooter for an NBA point guard, right now. Unlike Ball, however, he doesn't have the assists or rebounds to make up for it. He has two options, come back to Duke and work on his shooting (and his game management to some extent) or take the risk that he gets drafted 1st round and improve his game in the NBA. He certainly seems like a G-league player right now to me. Look at how badly the 1st year PGs have played in the NBA this season. The risk of returning is whether he can mesh with the new group of players. Personally, I think he could start alongside Tre Jones, but it is a risk. My guess is if he gets a first round grade, he's gone.

3/4 of the players drafted in the NBA Draft this year wont be ready for the NBA. That's the sad fact. Almost all of them would benefit from another year of learning at this level, but that's not the game anymore. It's sad that these kids are having to make a form of risk/value assessment at this early stage of their careers. Personally, I love the idea of allowing kids to declare for the draft, with leaving the option to return to school if they are not picked in the first round. I know NBA teams would hate that, but in the long run, I think it would be better for both college and the NBA.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Some interesting perspective from Wendell's mom, regarding one and one, the NBA, and Duke.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/duke-wendell-carter-jr-one-and-done-is-right-move/amp/

[CDu]

Some interesting perspective from Wendell's mom, regarding one and one, the NBA, and Duke.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/duke-wendell-carter-jr-one-and-done-is-right-move/amp/

I would love to see Carter come back next year, given the depth of high-quality bigs in year's draft class - where he'll likely be the 4th big man taken behind Ayton, Bagley, and Jaren Jackson Jr (not kidding, the scouts love his athleticism as a "modern big" - and the dearth of bigs next year. But I'd be REALLY surprised to see any of this year's starters back on next year's team.

[kAzE]

Of the OAD guys, I'm going to miss Wendell the most. He was our most important player all year, and we were consistently a worse team when he wasn't on the floor. Bagley got all the hype and accolades, but Wendell was the glue that made it all work. I'm very sad that he's played his last game for Duke.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Any rumors regarding our coaching staff? I hope they are all coming back.

SoC al

[flyingdutchdevil]

Of the OAD guys, I'm going to miss Wendell the most. He was our most important player all year, and we were consistently a worse team when he wasn't on the floor. Bagley got all the hype and accolades, but Wendell was the glue that made it all work. I'm very sad that he's played his last game for Duke.

Same. Duval is my "favorite", but that's more of a product of being PG-less the last 2 years and DBR ripping on Duval over the last 7 months.

Wendell isn't coming back. But it would be nice if he did!

A line-up of Jones-Barrett-Reddish-Zion-Carter would be insane.

[Sir Stealth]

Some interesting perspective from Wendell's mom, regarding one and one, the NBA, and Duke.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/duke-wendell-carter-jr-one-and-done-is-right-move/amp/

I agree that it's interesting to get this level of insight into the Carter family mindset here. It's also easy to see how the headliner "college basketball is a con" comment is going to overshadow the points that Mrs. Carter is actually making. There is also a disconnect here with how much Mrs. Carter seems to have valued the Duke experience and the major college basketball experience while still publicly characterizing the whole thing to a "con."

I agree with her that the top players like Wendell should be able to go straight to the NBA without being forced to do a stopover year in college, and that there are major problems with the forced amateurism of the NCAA and compensation of top players. That being said, for a family that emphasized the educational element and acknowledges the benefits and emotional impact of the big stage that college basketball provided Wendell, it's a little bit lacking in nuance to use the dismissive word "con." It's also easy to see how people could equate "college basketball is a con for making the best players play for less than their value" with "Duke basketball is a con." After all, Duke is a big part of college basketball. And most participants in college basketball, who share the benefits of the big stage and may obtain the educational benefits (as long as they aren't defrauded by schools like UNC), do not share the earning potential out of high school that Wendell would have had. So the inevitable reduction of Mrs. Carter's post-game feelings to the "con" headline is unfortunate.

[UrinalCake]

the only questions are 1) what is my current NBA value, and 2) would that value significantly increase if I return to school. For the most part, the answer to #2 is usually no.

100% agree with the first part of your statement, but I disagree with regards to Trent. I think his value could absolutely go up if he comes back for another year. He is in the 40's in the latest mock drafts, which means no guaranteed contract (although most second rounders do sign), playing summer league ball and then the G league unless he somehow explodes or the team that drafts him has injuries. If he comes back for another year he could easily vault into the first round or conceivably even the lottery. Luke is really the best example that I keep bringing up. Trent shot a better percentage from three as a freshman, but both were wildly inconsistent and lacked NBA skill. Trent right now is simply a spot up three point shooter. He can't catch and shoot, he can't shoot off the dribble, he can't create his own shot, and he doesn't have a quick release. Those things take time to develop. He has shown some good midrange game but he can't finish at the rim and he is an average college defender at best. Like Luke, he could come back and blow up even on a team loaded with other talent and become a lottery pick. OTOH he could go the Frank Jackson route and take his chances developing in the G-league. The decision could go either way.

I personally strongly disagree with this notion that he or Duval HAS to go because they won't get any playing time if they stay. First of all, if they're not good enough to play over or alongside some highly rated freshmen, then what does that say about their ability to compete among G-league players, much less NBA players? Secondly, every year we assume that incoming freshmen are going to be better than the upperclassmen. Sometimes it is true, but we of all people should understand the value of experience. And thirdly, we currently project to have a very talented starting five but little to no bench. K loves to play small, much moreso than he loves to play big. So even if BOTH Trent and Duval came back (which I know isn't going to happen) I think there's enough minutes at the 1-4 for the three incoming guards/wings, Alex, some of Zion's minutes, plus those two.

[Ian]

I agree that it's interesting to get this level of insight into the Carter family mindset here. It's also easy to see how the headliner "college basketball is a con" comment is going to overshadow the points that Mrs. Carter is actually making. There is also a disconnect here with how much Mrs. Carter seems to have valued the Duke experience and the major college basketball experience while still publicly characterizing the whole thing to a "con."

I agree with her that the top players like Wendell should be able to go straight to the NBA without being forced to do a stopover year in college, and that there are major problems with the forced amateurism of the NCAA and compensation of top players. That being said, for a family that emphasized the educational element and acknowledges the benefits and emotional impact of the big stage that college basketball provided Wendell, it's a little bit lacking in nuance to use the dismissive word "con." It's also easy to see how people could equate "college basketball is a con for making the best players play for less than their value" with "Duke basketball is a con." After all, Duke is a big part of college basketball. And most participants in college basketball, who share the benefits of the big stage and may obtain the educational benefits (as long as they aren't defrauded by schools like UNC), do not share the earning potential out of high school that Wendell would have had. So the inevitable reduction of Mrs. Carter's post-game feelings to the "con" headline is unfortunate.

I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she used "con" in th context of discussing "pros and cons", as in, college basketball is a negative factor when considering a potential professional NBA career, and not "con" to mean it's a fraud.

[UrinalCake]

It's also easy to see how people could equate "college basketball is a con for making the best players play for less than their value" with "Duke basketball is a con."

Her full quote was "If you look at the pros and the cons, college basketball is a big con." I interpret her use of the word "con" to mean "a negative," not a con in the sense that she is being conned or swindled out of something. She describes the positives and negatives of going to college and says that the negatives outweigh the positives - yes you can improve your draft stock by playing well, but you can also lose stock by being exposed or by getting injured.

[PackMan97]

The college game is a big con as well when you think about the restrictions on "time with coaches" and other support staff, as well as the time commitments to school.

In the pro game, it's all about the game with the only restriction being hard hard the athlete is willing to work.

[rtnorthrup]

100% agree with the first part of your statement, but I disagree with regards to Trent. I think his value could absolutely go up if he comes back for another year. He is in the 40's in the latest mock drafts, which means no guaranteed contract (although most second rounders do sign), playing summer league ball and then the G league unless he somehow explodes or the team that drafts him has injuries. If he comes back for another year he could easily vault into the first round or conceivably even the lottery. Luke is really the best example that I keep bringing up. Trent shot a better percentage from three as a freshman, but both were wildly inconsistent and lacked NBA skill. Trent right now is simply a spot up three point shooter. He can't catch and shoot, he can't shoot off the dribble, he can't create his own shot, and he doesn't have a quick release. Those things take time to develop. He has shown some good midrange game but he can't finish at the rim and he is an average college defender at best. Like Luke, he could come back and blow up even on a team loaded with other talent and become a lottery pick. OTOH he could go the Frank Jackson route and take his chances developing in the G-league. The decision could go either way.

I personally strongly disagree with this notion that he or Duval HAS to go because they won't get any playing time if they stay. First of all, if they're not good enough to play over or alongside some highly rated freshmen, then what does that say about their ability to compete among G-league players, much less NBA players? Secondly, every year we assume that incoming freshmen are going to be better than the upperclassmen. Sometimes it is true, but we of all people should understand the value of experience. And thirdly, we currently project to have a very talented starting five but little to no bench. K loves to play small, much moreso than he loves to play big. So even if BOTH Trent and Duval came back (which I know isn't going to happen) I think there's enough minutes at the 1-4 for the three incoming guards/wings, Alex, some of Zion's minutes, plus those two.

I think if Trent and Duval come back, they absolutely both start, and both would play significant roles on next year's team. I just think that only Duval can significantly change his draft profile, if he can prove to NBA scouts that his shooting will improve. I'm sure Trent will get better at the things he already does, but I don't see him adding a new skill set.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I would love to see Carter come back next year, given the depth of high-quality bigs in year's draft class - where he'll likely be the 4th big man taken behind Ayton, Bagley, and Jaren Jackson Jr (not kidding, the scouts love his athleticism as a "modern big" - and the dearth of bigs next year. But I'd be REALLY surprised to see any of this year's starters back on next year's team.

Carter is interesting case. He pulled the "Un-Dunleavy" in this tournament in my opinion.....his inattention to detail yesterday was frustrating. I really like this guy.....not sure he's really pro ready yet. Then again, it's up to the scouts. If they deem him first rounder, he should go.

[FerryFor50]

I would love to see Carter come back next year, given the depth of high-quality bigs in year's draft class - where he'll likely be the 4th big man taken behind Ayton, Bagley, and Jaren Jackson Jr (not kidding, the scouts love his athleticism as a "modern big" - and the dearth of bigs next year. But I'd be REALLY surprised to see any of this year's starters back on next year's team.

Loved Carter, not just for his skillset, but also for how much he cared. He wore his heart on his sleeve all year, and I appreciated that.

But yea, he's likely gone. And honestly, he should go. Get paid!

[CDu]

I think if Trent and Duval come back, they absolutely both start, and both would play significant roles on next year's team. I just think that only Duval can significantly change his draft profile, if he can prove to NBA scouts that his shooting will improve. I'm sure Trent will get better at the things he already does, but I don't see him adding a new skill set.

I agree with this. Unless Trent suddenly improves in the following areas:
- ballhandling
- defense
- run/jump athleticism

He isn't likely to improve his draft stock. He's a shooter/scorer who doesn't really bring much else to the table right now. That's not a knock - shooting and scoring are pretty important skills. But he doesn't have great athleticism, doesn't have great court awareness when it comes to passing, and doesn't handle the ball well.

If he came back and showed improvements in those areas, he could improve his stock. But I think those are tough areas to improve.

With Duval, he is still learning how to play PG. His athleticism and court vision are fantastic, but his overall feel for the game and decision-making need work. As does his shooting. I think his traits are easier to improve than Trent's.

Now, I doubt either guy returns, but I think Duval has an easier path to a higher draft pick by returning than Trent does.

And I totally agree that playing time would not be a concern for either. Either would start, and even if both returned they would both be in the top-6 and get 25+ mpg (in that scenario, I'd guess Trent would be the sixth man). But I'd be very surprised if Duval returns, and fairly surprised if Trent returns.


Loved Carter, not just for his skillset, but also for how much he cared. He wore his heart on his sleeve all year, and I appreciated that.

But yea, he's likely gone. And honestly, he should go. Get paid!

Yeah, I should make clear that - even though he'll almost certainly be the 4th or 5th big (forgot Bamba) taken - he'll still likely go in the top-10. I really don't think there is much upside to him coming back. He could definitely get into the top-5 (and the top big) by returning, but it's probably not worth the risk of serious injury and of not performing well enough in a bigger role. I'd be really really surprised if he came back. It's hard to argue with a top-10 pick if your goal is the NBA.

[FerryFor50]

I agree with this. Unless Trent suddenly improves in the following areas:
- ballhandling
- defense
- run/jump athleticism

He isn't likely to improve his draft stock. He's a shooter/scorer who doesn't really bring much else to the table right now. That's not a knock - shooting and scoring are pretty important skills. But he doesn't have great athleticism, doesn't have great court awareness when it comes to passing, and doesn't handle the ball well.

If he came back and showed improvements in those areas, he could improve his stock. But I think those are tough areas to improve.

With Duval, he is still learning how to play PG. His athleticism and court vision are fantastic, but his overall feel for the game and decision-making need work. As does his shooting. I think his traits are easier to improve than Trent's.

Now, I doubt either guy returns, but I think Duval has an easier path to a higher draft pick by returning than Trent does.

And I totally agree that playing time would not be a concern for either. Either would start, and even if both returned they would both be in the top-6 and get 25+ mpg (in that scenario, I'd guess Trent would be the sixth man). But I'd be very surprised if Duval returns, and fairly surprised if Trent returns.



Yeah, I should make clear that - even though he'll almost certainly be the 4th or 5th big (forgot Bamba) taken - he'll still likely go in the top-10. I really don't think there is much upside to him coming back. He could definitely get into the top-5 (and the top big) by returning, but it's probably not worth the risk of serious injury and of not performing well enough in a bigger role. I'd be really really surprised if he came back. It's hard to argue with a top-10 pick if your goal is the NBA.

What Carter needs work on is emotional maturity and basketball IQ (recognition of double teams and passing out) - both of which are stuff he can get more out of at the next level.

[Ian]

I agree with this. Unless Trent suddenly improves in the following areas:
- ballhandling
- defense
- run/jump athleticism

He isn't likely to improve his draft stock. He's a shooter/scorer who doesn't really bring much else to the table right now. That's not a knock - shooting and scoring are pretty important skills. But he doesn't have great athleticism, doesn't have great court awareness when it comes to passing, and doesn't handle the ball well.

If he came back and showed improvements in those areas, he could improve his stock. But I think those are tough areas to improve.

With Duval, he is still learning how to play PG. His athleticism and court vision are fantastic, but his overall feel for the game and decision-making need work. As does his shooting. I think his traits are easier to improve than Trent's.

Now, I doubt either guy returns, but I think Duval has an easier path to a higher draft pick by returning than Trent does.

And I totally agree that playing time would not be a concern for either. Either would start, and even if both returned they would both be in the top-6 and get 25+ mpg (in that scenario, I'd guess Trent would be the sixth man). But I'd be very surprised if Duval returns, and fairly surprised if Trent returns.



Yeah, I should make clear that - even though he'll almost certainly be the 4th or 5th big (forgot Bamba) taken - he'll still likely go in the top-10. I really don't think there is much upside to him coming back. He could definitely get into the top-5 (and the top big) by returning, but it's probably not worth the risk of serious injury and of not performing well enough in a bigger role. I'd be really really surprised if he came back. It's hard to argue with a top-10 pick if your goal is the NBA.

I think top lottery picks leaving early is fine. Heck I'm fine with any projected 1st rounder leaving. But it does bother me that even 2nd rounders are expected to leave at Duke now. Mainly because we had to recruit over them because they were expected to leave so now they are being pushed out the door because there isn't even room for them. Just seems like a very weird dynamic.

[MChambers]

Sorry, but I guess I am grumpy today. (Why would that be?)

You shoudln't title the thread or your post, "Whose Leaving." It's "Who Is Leaving?" or "Who's Leaving?"

Isn't it "Who's On First" or "Whose On First'?

[jimsumner]

I think some folks are grasping at straws here. Duval made it abundantly clear after the Carolina game that he had played his last game in Cameron. No ambiguity at all. And Trent is projecting as a first-round draft pick. I don't expect him back.

[uh_no]

Isn't it "Who's On First" or "Whose On First'?

no, it's always "who's on first" consider

"what is the name of the guy who plays first base"
"who"

[MCFinARL]

I would say 4 of the starters are gone 100% with the only question being Trent. Allen, Bags and Carter are obvious. Duval is gonna test well at the combine due to his athleticism and his game is better suited to the open floor and speed of the NBA. I think he will stay in if he even gets a 2nd round guarantee.

Now Trent on the other hand... average size, average athleticism and streaky shooter who wasn't strong enough in the paint. He could return and make a push for a lottery pick next year if he becomes a more consistent shooter, defends better and adds a floater to his game.


There is a huge disconnect these days between the NBA and college basketball, that is only partially explained by the one-and-done players. Quite simply, NBA evaluators don't value experience as highly as potential. The NBA would rather train a young player in the league than see them develop in the college game. For the McDonald's All-Americans that Duke recruits, the only questions are 1) what is my current NBA value, and 2) would that value significantly increase if I return to school. For the most part, the answer to #2 is usually no.

Take for example Gary Trent Jr. The NBA knows what he is. He is a spot up 3 shooter, good mid-range game, average to below average 1on1 defender, average ball handler/creator, and gives very little at the rim scoring. None of that is likely to change if he comes back to school. I don't mean that as a negative. He can put the ball in the basket at an NBA level, and that has value. He will likely be a back half of the first round, early 2nd candidate. But there is little upside coming back to college.

The only player in our starting 5 that I can make an argument for returning is Duval. I think his NBA value right now is significantly lower than his talent level, given that he struggled at times this season. If Duval comes back and improves his free throw percentage and field goal percentages >10%, and decreases his TO ratio, I honestly think he would see his draft stock go way up. Duval is a below average shooter for an NBA point guard, right now. Unlike Ball, however, he doesn't have the assists or rebounds to make up for it. He has two options, come back to Duke and work on his shooting (and his game management to some extent) or take the risk that he gets drafted 1st round and improve his game in the NBA. He certainly seems like a G-league player right now to me. Look at how badly the 1st year PGs have played in the NBA this season. The risk of returning is whether he can mesh with the new group of players. Personally, I think he could start alongside Tre Jones, but it is a risk. My guess is if he gets a first round grade, he's gone.

3/4 of the players drafted in the NBA Draft this year wont be ready for the NBA. That's the sad fact. Almost all of them would benefit from another year of learning at this level, but that's not the game anymore. It's sad that these kids are having to make a form of risk/value assessment at this early stage of their careers. Personally, I love the idea of allowing kids to declare for the draft, with leaving the option to return to school if they are not picked in the first round. I know NBA teams would hate that, but in the long run, I think it would be better for both college and the NBA.

I agree with most of your post, though I think the drafting on potential argument works for Duval as well as for Trent. The only way I see either coming back, but especially Duval, is if they hear back from the NBA that there are specific things they must work on and improve in college before they have a shot at making an NBA roster.

[rtnorthrup]

I agree with most of your post, though I think the drafting on potential argument works for Duval as well as for Trent. The only way I see either coming back, but especially Duval, is if they hear back from the NBA that there are specific things they must work on and improve in college before they have a shot at making an NBA roster.

totally agree. My only concern for Duval is that he is a 60% FT shooter. I think this is a huge red flag for NBA teams, for a guard who shoots FTs so poorly. I think this could absolutely sabotage his NBA draft stock. If he came back and got that up to 75%, I think you are looking at an entirely different draft profile for him. That's what I mean by a player who could significantly change his draft profile.

That said, I agree with jimsumner, they are all gone.

[AtlDuke72]

[QUOTE=weezie;1059143]I think he's due to stay because he's not 100% yet. That brace isn't just for decoration. Another year of strength and hardening and lateral moving improvement might push him into the top 15.
I wonder if he has the court personality of a monster, I see him more as a finesse guy. He'll be working on the outlet passes this summer wherever he is.


Bolden seems like a good team player and I am rooting for him. Having said that, I am baffled by all of the comments for the last two years that imply he will be a top NBA pick or a "monster" if he works hard this summer and plays at Duke next year. I have seen a few good moments and that is about it. He missed two very short shots last night and then sat on the bench. Coach K played him very limited minutes and played Javin ahead of him last night and at the end of the game. I cannot see an NBA team drafting him. I think he should stay and prove himself if he is really that good. Doing so could make him a great deal of money .

[whereinthehellami]

Think they are all gone and that Bolden is looking for anyway to go. This draft is just loaded with big guys that can flat out play though. Bagley, Carter, Ayton, Bamba, Porter, Wagner, Spellman, and Jackson off the top of my head. I'm sure their are some international guys too.

[jacone21]

I think top lottery picks leaving early is fine. Heck I'm fine with any projected 1st rounder leaving. But it does bother me that even 2nd rounders are expected to leave at Duke now. Mainly because we had to recruit over them because they were expected to leave so now they are being pushed out the door because there isn't even room for them. Just seems like a very weird dynamic.

Yeah feels like UK circa 2010. Not really what I want for Duke basketball, but it is what it is. I'll still be watching with interest next season.

[Dukehky]

I think some folks are grasping at straws here. Duval made it abundantly clear after the Carolina game that he had played his last game in Cameron. No ambiguity at all. And Trent is projecting as a first-round draft pick. I don't expect him back.

I agree with your take on Duval. He's also a better fit in the NBA.

Other than nbadraftnet, I haven't seen Trent on any NBA draft boards, especially the ones I follow pretty closely and respect like O'Connor at the Ringer and Vecenie at the Athletic, Mike Schmitz and Givony at ESPN. I think he could improve his stock by coming back, but I agree that he is probably gone. Which is a bummer to me. He would be the leader and I think the leading scorer (I know people will disagree with that).

I said previously on this thread that I expect him to leave. Hard to stay when your best friends are leaving. Not to say AOC and he aren't buds, but he came in with Wendell as a top 10 recruit, expecting to be 1 and done, I don't think enough has gone against him to to change his mind.

K and his dad will be reasonable in how they give him his feedback. If he still wants to go pro and thinks that's the best thing to do, then good on him. I hope to see him in a Duke uniform again, but I doubt it happens.

[Owen Meany]

I would be shocked if Duvall came back and pleasantly surprised if Trent did. But I am always baffled by the suggestion that someone might leave because they are pushed out by an incoming freshman. I would be very surprised if someone felt they were good enough to go pro but not good enough to beat out an incoming high school kid with no college experience. Two off seasons ago it was said that Luke Kennard would be relegated to the bench by Frank Jackson - but good news, he would be our last great 4 year player. Last year it was said Jackson was going pro because he couldn't compete with world-beater Duvall. This summer, Duvall and Trent won't be able to find time at Duke so they are heading to be first round picks in the NBA. If you can play, You will get playing time - especially on a team that badly needs experience.

I fear next year we will really feel the loss of Trent. Duke wasn't a great 3 point shooting team and will posse Allen and Trent. Even Carter and Bagley were able to hit at a respectable clip that helped at least a little to alleviate the packed in post.

[CDu]

I would be shocked if Duvall came back and pleasantly surprised if Trent did. But I am always baffled by the suggestion that someone might leave because they are pushed out by an incoming freshman. I would be very surprised if someone felt they were good enough to go pro but not good enough to beat out an incoming high school kid with no college experience. Two off seasons ago it was said that Luke Kennard would be relegated to the bench by Frank Jackson - but good news, he would be our last great 4 year player. Last year it was said Jackson was going pro because he couldn't compete with world-beater Duvall. This summer, Duvall and Trent won't be able to find time at Duke so they are heading to be first round picks in the NBA. If you can play, You will get playing time - especially on a team that badly needs experience.

I fear next year we will really feel the loss of Trent. Duke wasn't a great 3 point shooting team and will posse Allen and Trent. Even Carter and Bagley were able to hit at a respectable clip that helped at least a little to alleviate the packed in post.

Duval, not Duvall.

I do agree that losing Trent will be a difficult loss to replace. We are very possibly going to be a worse 3pt shooting team than this year's squad. Though, to be fair, this year's team was a solid 3pt shooting team (37% on the year, top-70 nationally). But I do worry that next year's team won't be that good at it.

[Dukehky]

Duval, not Duvall.

I do agree that losing Trent will be a difficult loss to replace. We are very possibly going to be a worse 3pt shooting team than this year's squad. Though, to be fair, this year's team was a solid 3pt shooting team (37% on the year, top-70 nationally). But I do worry that next year's team won't be that good at it.

I wonder how much of this is reputation though? Grayson didn't have a great year shooting the ball from deep after the first couple months of the season. Trent was super streaky. Duval was pretty bad and Bagley and Carter were pretty, meh.

Tre Barrett and Cam can all make 3s. Do they come in reputations as knock down shooters? No. But it's possible, that in the aggregate, when compared to Grayson, Trent, AND Duval, that' they're better. Zion, I think is going to be about like Bagley in 3 point shooting percentage, although I expect him to take more. I'm not really sure why I expect that, but whatever.

O'Connell will play more, one would assume, which would give us a bump in shooting. Joe Girard is still out there, and that dude can shoot it, although we would have to see if he could play even if he were on the team due to defensive issues.

The rebounding is what concerns me for next year. We'll see though. We'll have the talent.

[Dukebasketball2020]

Perfect guy to bring in as a grad transfer next year 6'5 Chattanooga guard Nat Dixon averaged 13.8 points per game shot 39.5 % from 3 and 74% FT shooter also averaged 4.6 rebounds

[jimsumner]

Perfect guy to bring in as a grad transfer next year 6'5 Chattanooga guard Nat Dixon averaged 13.8 points per game shot 39.5 % from 3 and 74% FT shooter also averaged 4.6 rebounds

Can he get into grad school at Duke?

Because that is a factor and a reason why names like Reid Travis (Stanford) and Makai Mason (originally Yale) keep popping up, the assumption of academic excellence.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but this isn't getting a grad transfer into Louisville or NC State.

The Ivies don't give medical hardships and Ivy-League student/athletes tend to be smarter than the average bear. Lots of Ivy-League athletes with a year of eligibility remaining, just not at their current school.

Seems like a good pond for Duke to fish.

And Joe Girard, mentioned up-thread, is class of 2019.

[CDu]

I wonder how much of this is reputation though? Grayson didn't have a great year shooting the ball from deep after the first couple months of the season. Trent was super streaky. Duval was pretty bad and Bagley and Carter were pretty, meh.

The stats aren't reputation. We shot 37% on the season this year, which was top-70 nationally. And while Bagley and Carter might not have looked fluid as shooters, they both shot it at a VERY high percentage. Bagley hit 39.7% of 3s, Carter 41.3%. Trent (40.2%) and Allen (37.0%) were certainly streaky, but their season averages from 3 were both good. Among players who attempted at least 25 3s this year, only Duval shot below 37%. And only Duval and Allen shot below 39.7%. It was a pretty darn good 3pt shooting team on


Tre Barrett and Cam can all make 3s. Do they come in reputations as knock down shooters? No. But it's possible, that in the aggregate, when compared to Grayson, Trent, AND Duval, that' they're better. Zion, I think is going to be about like Bagley in 3 point shooting percentage, although I expect him to take more. I'm not really sure why I expect that, but whatever.

O'Connell will play more, one would assume, which would give us a bump in shooting. Joe Girard is still out there, and that dude can shoot it, although we would have to see if he could play even if he were on the team due to defensive issues.

I would be shocked if Williamson shoots 39.7% from 3 next year. He's considered even less of a shooter than Bagley or Carter was. And as I noted above, those two guys shot the 3 extremely well this year.

And while it is possible that Jones, Reddish, and Barrett can match Duval, Trent, and Allen from 3, I wouldn't bet heavily on it. I certainly don't anticipate Reddish and Barrett matching Trent and Allen from 3, so it would come down to how much better Jones is at shooting than Duval was.

Again, I'm not saying they won't wind up a good shooting team. Just that I think it's a legitimate question with the group coming in.


The rebounding is what concerns me for next year. We'll see though. We'll have the talent.

See, I'm actually not very concerned about our rebounding. Bolden and DeLaurier should hold their own. Williamson is a very good rebounder. Barrett is a terrific rebounder for a wing. Reddish is also a good rebounder. So while we won't be as tall as this year's team, I think we'll be fine on the glass. It will just come from a wider range of guys rather than just 1 or 2 guys like this year.

[Troublemaker]

Perfect guy to bring in as a grad transfer next year 6'5 Chattanooga guard Nat Dixon averaged 13.8 points per game shot 39.5 % from 3 and 74% FT shooter also averaged 4.6 rebounds

Yeah, so this guy posted a pretty pedestrian 106 offensive rating on pretty pedestrian usage (19.6%) on a 10-23 Chattanooga team in the Southern Conference. I don't see him translating as a Duke rotation player.

If you're going to dream about shooters, dream big. What we could REALLY use is a stretch-5 to complement all of our ball-handlers next season. Think about Mike Daum. Frankly, if we could pull in Daum, I wouldn't really care what the roster ripple effects would be as far who goes pro, transfers, etc. That would be a FUN team to watch if Daum is the stretch-5. But I still don't anticipate us being active on the grad transfer market.

[Natty_B]

Can he get into grad school at Duke?

Because that is a factor and a reason why names like Reid Travis (Stanford) and Makai Mason (originally Yale) keep popping up, the assumption of academic excellence.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but this isn't getting a grad transfer into Louisville or NC State.

The Ivies don't give medical hardships and Ivy-League student/athletes tend to be smarter than the average bear. Lots of Ivy-League athletes with a year of eligibility remaining, just not at their current school.

Seems like a good pond for Duke to fish.

And Joe Girard, mentioned up-thread, is class of 2019.

Probably true although not Makai Mason specifically as he's already going to Baylor. There will be TONS of dudes going this route in the next weeks.

[CDu]

Can he get into grad school at Duke?

Because that is a factor and a reason why names like Reid Travis (Stanford) and Makai Mason (originally Yale) keep popping up, the assumption of academic excellence.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but this isn't getting a grad transfer into Louisville or NC State.

The Ivies don't give medical hardships and Ivy-League student/athletes tend to be smarter than the average bear. Lots of Ivy-League athletes with a year of eligibility remaining, just not at their current school.

Seems like a good pond for Duke to fish.

I would honestly not find the "could he get into grad school" a major hurdle. Not saying that Dixon would be on the radar, just that I can't imagine a kid who Duke wanted not being able to get into school. We got a JuCo transfer into undergrad (he backed out before coming of course), which is undoubtedly a harder hurdle than some of Duke's grad programs.

These types of things just seem to somehow work themselves out. And it isn't like most of these guys are going to have such standout academic resumes to get them into grad school straight out of undergrad on their academic merit alone, anyway. That isn't meant to discredit their academic performance. Just that (a) they tend to be filtered to the easiest majors, (b) tend to not be on the same level of student as the general population to begin with, and (c) are asked to devote WAY more of their time to their sport than their studies, such that even if (a) and (b) weren't true, it's hard to stand out academically. So I get the sense that most (not all, but most) of those guys get into grad programs because of their additional resume-builder that they'd be a high-profile athlete that the program can add to their alumni rosters.

That being said, I would expect that - if we needed a big and he was amenable to grad transfer - Travis does make the most sense. For one thing, he's really good. For another, we recruited him out of high school, so we know there is familiarity with the program. For another, he played with Tre Jones' brother, so there is probably a familiarity with Tre and (in the off-chance he returned) Trent.

[jimsumner]

Probably true although not Makai Mason specifically as he's already going to Baylor. There will be TONS of dudes going this route in the next weeks.

I know about Mason. That's why I added the parenthetical "originally Yale." But he made sense for Duke because he was a student at an academically-elite school.

[Kedsy]

Probably true although not Makai Mason specifically as he's already going to Baylor. There will be TONS of dudes going this route in the next weeks.

There'll be TONS of dudes going to Baylor? Good for Scott Drew, I guess. :p

[jimsumner]

I would honestly not find the "could he get into grad school" a major hurdle. Not saying that Dixon would be on the radar, just that I can't imagine a kid who Duke wanted not being able to get into school. We got a JuCo transfer into undergrad (he backed out before coming of course), which is undoubtedly a harder hurdle than some of Duke's grad programs.

These types of things just seem to somehow work themselves out. And it isn't like most of these guys are going to have such standout academic resumes to get them into grad school straight out of undergrad on their academic merit alone, anyway. That isn't meant to discredit their academic performance. Just that (a) they tend to be filtered to the easiest majors, (b) tend to not be on the same level of student as the general population to begin with, and (c) are asked to devote WAY more of their time to their sport than their studies, such that even if (a) and (b) weren't true, it's hard to stand out academically. So I get the sense that most (not all, but most) of those guys get into grad programs because of their additional resume-builder that they'd be a high-profile athlete that the program can add to their alumni rosters.

That being said, I would expect that - if we needed a big and he was amenable to grad transfer - Travis does make the most sense. For one thing, he's really good. For another, we recruited him out of high school, so we know there is familiarity with the program. For another, he played with Tre Jones' brother, so there is probably a familiarity with Tre and (in the off-chance he returned) Trent.

Perhaps men's hoops is different. And I haven't discussed this with K. But I have discussed grad-school transfers with David Cutcliffe, Joanne P. McCallie, Chris Pollard and John Kerr and they've all told me variations of the same thing. Lots of potential grad-school transfers approach them and they immediately have to rule out the vast majority because they cannot get into Duke grad school. I don't think Duke gives much, if any, of a break to prospective student-athletes wanting a Duke graduate degree.

[Natty_B]

I know about Mason. That's why I added the parenthetical "originally Yale." But he made sense for Duke because he was a student at an academically-elite school.

Ok. Well with that I propose a permanent ban on Makai Mason talk as his name has been bouncing around on these boards for year and years ( or at least until he lights Duke up in a round of 32 game next year). Reid Travis strikes me as almost TOO good to want to come be a 4th or 5th option on a Duke team next year as he averaged almost 20 and 10 last year. I am here for ALL unfounded Mike Daum rumors.

[CDu]

Perhaps men's hoops is different. And I haven't discussed this with K. But I have discussed grad-school transfers with David Cutcliffe, Joanne P. McCallie, Chris Pollard and John Kerr and they've all told me variations of the same thing. Lots of potential grad-school transfers approach them and they immediately have to rule out the vast majority because they cannot get into Duke grad school. I don't think Duke gives much, if any, of a break to prospective student-athletes wanting a Duke graduate degree.

I suspect men's basketball is indeed different. I suspect that Coach K gets his way, a lot. I mean, he got a guy like Carrick Felix into Duke undergrad. I can't imagine he couldn't pull strings at, say, the Business School to get a guy into a program there.

I don't think the other athletic programs have a significant enough cache to do that.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I suspect men's basketball is indeed different. I suspect that Coach K gets his way, a lot. I mean, he got a guy like Carrick Felix into Duke undergrad. I can't imagine he couldn't pull strings at, say, the Business School to get a guy into a program there.

I don't think the other athletic programs have a significant enough cache to do that.

There are grad programs that anyone can get into. Fuqua has an MMS program, for instance, that caters to recent undergrad students who want to focus on business skills before entering the workforce. There is a reason this program is flooded with international students and athletes.

Anyone can get into this program, and given that Coach K's name is branded all over Fuqua, he can get them in.

So yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that any grad transfer can easily come to Duke.

[jimsumner]

There are grad programs that anyone can get into. Fuqua has an MMS program, for instance, that caters to recent undergrad students who want to focus on business skills before entering the workforce. There is a reason this program is flooded with international students and athletes.

Anyone can get into this program, and given that Coach K's name is branded all over Fuqua, he can get them in.

So yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that any grad transfer can easily come to Duke.

"any grad transfer can easily come to Duke?"

Then a lot of Duke coaches are either liars or incompetent.

[flyingdutchdevil]

"any grad transfer can easily come to Duke?"

Then a lot of Duke coaches are either liars or incompetent.

This was in reference to men's basketball, where the connections run very, very deep. You really think that, if Coach K wants a grad transfer who isn't that bright, Duke would say no? Do you actually believe that?

[El_Diablo]

I think some folks are grasping at straws here. Duval made it abundantly clear after the Carolina game that he had played his last game in Cameron. No ambiguity at all.

Wasn't his quote something to the effect of it being the last time "this lineup" or "this team" plays together in Cameron? I am not trying to grasp at straws (as I think he's gone) but am just trying to clarify what he actually said.

[dukelifer]

There are grad programs that anyone can get into. Fuqua has an MMS program, for instance, that caters to recent undergrad students who want to focus on business skills before entering the workforce. There is a reason this program is flooded with international students and athletes.

Anyone can get into this program, and given that Coach K's name is branded all over Fuqua, he can get them in.

So yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that any grad transfer can easily come to Duke.

I also doubt anyone can get it. There are a lot of good students that apply to graduate programs that do not get accepted

[jimsumner]

This was in reference to men's basketball, where the connections run very, very deep. You really think that, if Coach K wants a grad transfer who isn't that bright, Duke would say no? Do you actually believe that?

I don't think Coach k would want a grad transfer who isn't that bright.

K declines to recruit academically-marginal recruits in every class because of those academic deficiencies. He actually respects the fact that he works for an academically-elite university.

And people keep bringing up Carrick Felix, a player who declined to do the summer work he was asked to do for his conditional acceptance to be finalized and never actually enrolled at Duke.

[CDu]

I also doubt anyone can get it. There are a lot of good students that apply to graduate programs that do not get accepted

There are a lot of GREAT students who don't get accepted to Duke undergrad, yet we somehow field an elite basketball team. And no, that's not because we happen to find and successfully recruit 3-4 guys year in and year out that would qualify on their academic merits that happen to be elite basketball players. The men's basketball program at Duke definitely gets more wiggle room when it comes to academics than the other sports.

[rtnorthrup]

There are grad programs that anyone can get into. Fuqua has an MMS program, for instance, that caters to recent undergrad students who want to focus on business skills before entering the workforce. There is a reason this program is flooded with international students and athletes.

Anyone can get into this program, and given that Coach K's name is branded all over Fuqua, he can get them in.

So yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that any grad transfer can easily come to Duke.

But for the graduate program to be eligible for the grad transfer waiver (don't have to sit out a year), it has to be a program that is not offered at the University you enrolled in under the scholarship. Or at least that was my understanding. If it is an "everyone gets in" program, I doubt the NCAA would consider that eligible.

[CDu]

But for the graduate program to be eligible for the grad transfer waiver (don't have to sit out a year), it has to be a program that is not offered at the University you enrolled in under the scholarship. Or at least that was my understanding. If it is an "everyone gets in" program, I doubt the NCAA would consider that eligible.

This isn't actually the difficult part. First, a lot of schools don't have a dedicated business school. Second, the Business School certainly offers programs that a lot of other schools don't have.

People keep bringing this up, but I don't think it is nearly the hurdle that people think it is. Otherwise, there would be far fewer grad transfers. The reality is that I bet most schools have some sort of program in place that is fairly unique in its offering.

And as for the "everyone gets in", I suspect the NCAA has no interest in determining that. As proven by the UNC scandal, which is far worse than a program with lower acceptance standards would be. As long as the coursework is legitimate (and in UNC's case, even when it isn't), it's not going to be a problem with the NCAA.

[rtnorthrup]

This isn't actually the difficult part. First, a lot of schools don't have a dedicated business school. Second, the Business School certainly offers programs that a lot of other schools don't have.

People keep bringing this up, but I don't think it is nearly the hurdle that people think it is. Otherwise, there would be far fewer grad transfers. The reality is that I bet most schools have some sort of program in place that is fairly unique in its offering.

And as for the "everyone gets in", I suspect the NCAA has no interest in determining that. As proven by the UNC scandal, which is far worse than a program with lower acceptance standards would be. As long as the coursework is legitimate (and in UNC's case, even when it isn't), it's not going to be a problem with the NCAA.

you are 100%, for some reason I keep holding the NCAA to reasonable academic standards. Old habits die hard.

[CDu]

you are 100%, for some reason I keep holding the NCAA to reasonable academic standards. Old habits die hard.

LOL :)

I don't mean to suggest that this is comparable to UNC. But you have to remember: there are 351 schools in D-1, with a WIIIIIIDE range of academic merit. The NCAA has no business grading acceptance rates when deciding whether a program counts.

I do think that making sure degree programs are actually requiring degree work should matter to the NCAA. But not the acceptance level of the program. If you are able to get into any D-1 school for undergrad (even as an athlete), you should by definition meet the minimum level of acceptance rate for a program to be considered eligible by the NCAA. Whether you can successfully do the work once in the program, and whether that work is suitable for earning a degree are what the NCAA should care about.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

but Trey Jones is our starting PG next year, Duval or no Duval.

And that’s not a knock on Duval and Trent - it’s just that next years guys are that good.
.

I'll tell ya what, that game yesterday only increased my love for Quinn Cook (a verbal senior leader) and Tyus Jones (hit all the big time 3's versus Wisky). And I was pretty big fans of both already.

That said, what are the honest comparisons between Tre Jones and Tyus Jones? I think they're both rated about the same (around #10 overall), but every recruiting year is different.

[CDu]

I'll tell ya what, that game yesterday only increased my love for Quinn Cook (a verbal senior leader) and Tyus Jones (hit all the big time 3's versus Wisky). And I was pretty big fans of both already.

That said, what are the honest comparisons between Tre Jones and Tyus Jones? I think they're both rated about the same (around #10 overall), but every recruiting year is different.

Tyus was better, although Tre is closing the gap. Tyus was #7 in a stronger class overall; Tre has moved up to #7 in his class, but it's a bit of a weaker class.

They have a lot of similarities in their game. Tyus was a better shooter, Tre is a little bigger. Both are not uber-athletic, but are high-IQ players and good passers, both very clever with the ball in their hands.

[superdave]

I would answer the number of slots in graduate school at Duke are a tiny fraction of the number of undergraduate slots at Duke.

That is probably the limiting factor that prevents guys from transferring in to a grad program they are unlikely to complete.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I would answer the number of slots in graduate school at Duke are a tiny fraction of the number of undergraduate slots at Duke.

That is probably the limiting factor that prevents guys from transferring in to a grad program they are unlikely to complete.

That makes sense, but answer this: on grad transfers, obviously they have to have graduated, but still have a year of eligibility. I didn't think they actually had to enroll in grad school. I assume from these answers that they do have to be in school. I believe that an undergrad can still play even after graduating early. Maybe not the same for grad trans....

[CDu]

I would answer the number of slots in graduate school at Duke are a tiny fraction of the number of undergraduate slots at Duke.

That is probably the limiting factor that prevents guys from transferring in to a grad program they are unlikely to complete.

That is true for a typical grad school program. But there are 1-year programs in grad school. Any potential grad transfer would be looking for those types of "one-year master's" programs.


That makes sense, but answer this: on grad transfers, obviously they have to have graduated, but still have a year of eligibility. I didn't think they actually had to enroll in grad school. I assume from these answers that they do have to be in school. I believe that an undergrad can still play even after graduating early. Maybe not the same for grad trans...

To do a grad transfer, you have to go to a graduate program. And you have to go to a graduate program that your current school doesn't offer.

Undergrads who graduate early and stay at the same school also have to do a graduate program, but they can do any grad program they want. But, often, what you really see are guys who take the 5 years to get a 4-year degree. Especially in football, where most guys redshirt and some actually take different majors.

[sagegrouse]

I would answer the number of slots in graduate school at Duke are a tiny fraction of the number of undergraduate slots at Duke.

That is probably the limiting factor that prevents guys from transferring in to a grad program they are unlikely to complete.

Well, the "graduate school" enrolled 485 in a recent year, about 30 percent of the size of the freshman class. But there are 8,300 graduate students (counting all schools) and 6,600 undergrads. Most of the graduate and professional programs are for fewer than four years; therefore, there must be more positions in the entering classes for all of the graduate schools than for undergraduate.

[CDu]

Well, the "graduate school" enrolled 485 in a recent year, about 30 percent of the size of the freshman class. But there are 8,300 graduate students (counting all schools) and 6,600 undergrads. Most of the graduate and professional programs are for fewer than four years; therefore, there must be more positions in the entering classes for all of the graduate schools than for undergraduate.

And furthermore, the undergrad enrollment is really hard-capped by dorm availability. The grad departments are not.

I know, for example, that my PhD program doesn't end up filling all the slots they could fill in any given year. Sometimes we have a "cohort" of 10-12, sometimes it is 5-6. But we could probably do as many as 20 in a year. It just depends on who is interested in what we do that year. I would imagine this is true for most grad school programs. I highly doubt that an N of 1 here and there is going to move the needle in terms of enrollment space.

[duke79]

I suspect men's basketball is indeed different. I suspect that Coach K gets his way, a lot. I mean, he got a guy like Carrick Felix into Duke undergrad. I can't imagine he couldn't pull strings at, say, the Business School to get a guy into a program there.

I don't think the other athletic programs have a significant enough cache to do that.

I don't believe he can get every SINGLE recruit admitted to Duke (whether undergrad or graduate school) BUT I'm betting he can get ALMOST every one that he wants into the school. I remember reading somewhere that Johnny Dawkins, when he was the head coach at Stanford, was somewhat dismayed to find out that Stanford held the basketball recruits to a higher academic standard than what he was accustomed to at Duke and this made his recruiting efforts more difficult.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

To do a grad transfer, you have to go to a graduate program. And you have to go to a graduate program that your current school doesn't offer.
.

Thank you, I did not know that, which is why I asked. And that does greatly narrow Duke's chances of ever participating in this system....

[Pghdukie]

6 months without Duke Basketball - I need a beer. No, make that ALOT of beer.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

6 months without Duke Basketball - I need a beer. No, make that ALOT of beer.

Vodka. Straight. Beer not enough....not nearly strong enough.

[heyman25]

If we take a grad transfer, I hope it is a guard or wing that can shoot. If Bolden Vrank Javin and Robinson can hold down the Post, shooters that are consistent would be a valuable addition next season.

[dukelifer]

And furthermore, the undergrad enrollment is really hard-capped by dorm availability. The grad departments are not.

I know, for example, that my PhD program doesn't end up filling all the slots they could fill in any given year. Sometimes we have a "cohort" of 10-12, sometimes it is 5-6. But we could probably do as many as 20 in a year. It just depends on who is interested in what we do that year. I would imagine this is true for most grad school programs. I highly doubt that an N of 1 here and there is going to move the needle in terms of enrollment space.

But the admission process of ugrads is different than grads. That said- Duke currently has many more graduate/professional students than ugrads. In general there are caps to most programs- but the overall number of graduate students could grow as new programs are added every year.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I suspect men's basketball is indeed different. I suspect that Coach K gets his way, a lot. I mean, he got a guy like Carrick Felix into Duke undergrad. I can't imagine he couldn't pull strings at, say, the Business School to get a guy into a program there.

I don't think the other athletic programs have a significant enough cache to do that.

Carrick Felix was an excellent student at Arizona State, Pac 12 Scholar-Athlete of the Year and was first-team All-Pac-12 Academic Team.

SoCal

[53n206]

I think he's due to stay because he's not 100% yet. That brace isn't just for decoration. Another year of strength and hardening and lateral moving improvement might push him into the top 15.
I wonder if he has the court personality of a monster, I see him more as a finesse guy. He'll be working on the outlet passes this summer wherever he is.

And PS, NOW what am I going to do every morning when it's time to check in at DBR? Ugh, trudge to work and workouts? :(

Weezie:
I too wonder what I will do. Trading futures gives me some consolation--except when I'm down. No big down days lately, except when our Devils lose. Oh well. Next year.

[Saratoga2]

That was the assumption heading into the season, and nothing has really changed.

Yes, there are a ton of red flags for Trevon (he can't shoot, he turns the ball over some), but he is seeing a lot of competition next year and will likely get squeezed out. Also, he had 3 out of 4 really good tournament games. His stock went up.

With Trent, he didn't showcase a lot of his skillset this year. His shot is really good, and he's got some midrange. But little driving, little playmaking, little posting up...Trent's skillset was half-hidden. Which may be a great thing for the draft as folks will be addressing him on what they know (really good shooter, great FT shooter, mediocre D) moreso than what they don't. And Trent won't exactly work on those skills next year as 3 of the 4 freshman are more talented than he is. Trent again may have to be that off-ball guy who takes 12-15 shots a game. Not sure that's enticing for Trent at this point.

Also, when you have the #1 HS PG, the #2 HS SG, the #1 HS PF, and the #2 HS PF/C, it's a safe assumption to make they're gone after a year.

NBAdraft.net lists all 4 in the first 30. Bolden may test the draft without an agent. His size is appealing to the NBA and he showed some promise this year. What may hurt him is his lateral movement capability. Coach k didn't use him against a mostly guard lineup in the Kansas game due to this shortcoming.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

For those looking for a grad transfer, keep in mind that there is a pretty finite group of players who qualify - they have to have graduated and still have a year (or more) of eligibility remaining. I would be willing to bet that we keep a database of everyone who meets these qualifications. Then, that person actually has to want to transfer - I'm sure many of them are perfectly happy where they are, with their teammates, coaches, etc.

That being said, I think the academic side is the easy part. There are plenty of programs at Duke that can be spun as "different" from programs at other schools where players can be parked. And by definition, these are players who have graduated from college in four years. As UNC has proven, there are plenty of ways to have a player progress towards graduation while not being very intellectually engaged, but generally speaking, anyone who has performed as a basketball player at a level such that Duke would be interested in them and also focused on academics enough to graduate in four years is likely smart enough so that if Coach K pushed enough, they would be admitted.

I think our odds of getting a grad transfer, particularly given how loaded our lineup will be, are about the same as the odds of us turning up a diamond in the rough from overseas - I'm not holding my breath and I'm guessing the staff is not investing a lot of time in this.

[CDu]

Carrick Felix was an excellent student at Arizona State, Pac 12 Scholar-Athlete of the Year and was first-team All-Pac-12 Academic Team.

SoCal

Not putting him down at all. It wasn’t a comment about Felix specifically, just noting that he came from a JuCo school to being accepted to Duke undergrad. That seems a bigger jump to make academically than a guy with a 4-yr degree to a grad school program. Sorry it came off as a slam of the kid; I should have been more careful in explaining that.

[WHOneedsSOX]

ESPN guy had Bagley #3, Carter #6, Allen #33, Duval #42 and Trent #44 in his pre-draft rankings.

He said NBA scouts love Allen's competitiveness and fire.

[superdave]

Not putting him down at all. It wasn’t a comment about Felix specifically, just noting that he came from a JuCo school to being accepted to Duke undergrad. That seems a bigger jump to make academically than a guy with a 4-yr degree to a grad school program. Sorry it came off as a slam of the kid; I should have been more careful in explaining that.

Felix was in JUCO because of prior injury, not because of his grades.

[El_Diablo]

ESPN guy had Bagley #3, Carter #6, Allen #33, Duval #42 and Trent #44 in his pre-draft rankings.

He said NBA scouts love Allen's competitiveness and fire.

That's very similar to SI's big board, updated as of 3/20 (Bagley #3, Carter #7, Allen #33, Duval #44 and Trent #45): https://www.si.com/nba/2018/03/20/nba-draft-2018-big-board-deandre-ayton-marvin-bagley-trae-young

[DukieInKansas]

So, who had Coach Capel on the "who's leaving" list?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So, who had Coach Capel on the "who's leaving" list?

After seven years on the bench, he is the ANTI-OAD.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

So, who had Coach Capel on the "who's leaving" list?

Whodathunkit?!
Love, Ima

[UrinalCake]

That's very similar to SI's big board, updated as of 3/20 (Bagley #3, Carter #7, Allen #33, Duval #44 and Trent #45):

I imagine Duval and Trent will slip even further as more international players are evaluated and some players who were expected to return to school wind up entering their names into the pool. If both players enter the combine, my guess is Duval will move up while Trent will move down based on their measurements and performance testing. I'm still holding out hope that Trent comes back. Frank was projected late first round/early second at this stage last year, had a fantastic combine and still went right around there.

[Channing]

I think he is gone, but I would love to see TD in a 4 out - 1 in lineup, possibly running the high screen and roll with Bolden.

[hallcity]

I imagine Duval and Trent will slip even further as more international players are evaluated and some players who were expected to return to school wind up entering their names into the pool. If both players enter the combine, my guess is Duval will move up while Trent will move down based on their measurements and performance testing. I'm still holding out hope that Trent comes back. Frank was projected late first round/early second at this stage last year, had a fantastic combine and still went right around there.

I imagine that for them, they'll feel like they're a failure if they're not a one and done.

[devildeac]

no, it's always "who's on first" consider

"what is the name of the guy who plays first base"
"who"

"Oh, no, no. What is on second base."

[devildeac]

6 months without Duke Basketball - I need a beer. No, make that ALOT of beer.


Vodka. Straight. Beer not enough...not nearly strong enough.

Objection!

You two obviously don't spend enough time reading this thread:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3840-Ymm-Beer

[proelitedota]

If we didn't have the starting 5 basically set for the next year, maybe one of Duval / GTJ might have thought about returning. Duval is probably the most likely from a minutes POV since he'll start over Jones.

We'll be running our death line-up of Zion, RJ, Cam, Duval, Jones pretty frequently too. That has to be the most potent scoring lineup since Boozer, Dunleavy, Dantay, Jwill, and Duhon.

Did I already convince myself that Duval is returning?

[WVDUKEFAN]

I wouldn't draft Trent.

[Devilwin]

I wouldn't draft Trent.

Me neither. Or Duval. Neither kid is NBA material right now.

[freshmanjs]

Me neither. Or Duval. Neither kid is NBA material right now.

NBA draft is often not about right now.

[CameronBornAndBred]

So, who had Coach Capel on the "who's leaving" list?

Actually, Capel is such an amazing recruiter that he's getting Bagley to sit out a transfer year to see if he can set Pitt's dunk record, too.

[UrinalCake]

NBA draft is often not about right now.

That’s why I think Trent is more likely to come back than Duval. NBA teams will look at Duval and see a guy with the raw tools to eventually develop into an NBA player. Trent does not have those same tools, so he needs to prove he can produce before NBA teams will take him. And he hasn’t proven that yet.

[Oshima25]

If we didn't have the starting 5 basically set for the next year, maybe one of Duval / GTJ might have thought about returning. Duval is probably the most likely from a minutes POV since he'll start over Jones.

We'll be running our death line-up of Zion, RJ, Cam, Duval, Jones pretty frequently too. That has to be the most potent scoring lineup since Boozer, Dunleavy, Dantay, Jwill, and Duhon.

Did I already convince myself that Duval is returning?

I'm not so sure about this part at all. I actually think Duval took too much heat this year. We're so used to one-and-done studs we forget that a freshman point guard who isn't Kyrie or Tyus is usually going to have some rough patches, and when he looks good he looks great. That said, with no disrespect to Duval, I think there's a pretty good chance freshman Tre Jones can run an offense better than sophomore Duval. Just my opinion but I think Trent stands to get more minutes returning than Duval. I think there's a Luke-like sophomore year awaiting Trent, in which he can become our "surprise" most reliable scorer despite a ludicrous recruiting class.

[WHOneedsSOX]

That’s why I think Trent is more likely to come back than Duval. NBA teams will look at Duval and see a guy with the raw tools to eventually develop into an NBA player. Trent does not have those same tools, so he needs to prove he can produce before NBA teams will take him. And he hasn’t proven that yet.

I agree. Duval has the speed, quickness, ball handling, vision, and a body NBA scouts will love. He needs to work on his shot and decision making but all the tools are there.

Trent just has a shot. Average play making abilities. We didn't see much vision from him. Defensively slow. He needs to work on his game a lot to be a successful pro.

[ChillinDuke]

That’s why I think Trent is more likely to come back than Duval. NBA teams will look at Duval and see a guy with the raw tools to eventually develop into an NBA player. Trent does not have those same tools, so he needs to prove he can produce before NBA teams will take him. And he hasn’t proven that yet.

Trent is more likely to come back than Duval.

But to be clear, neither is likely to come back.

- Chillin

[DU82]

"Oh, no, no. What is on second base."

You know, I don't care!

[Pghdukie]

If what's on second, where's I don't no ?

[DukieInKansas]

If what's on second, where's I don't no ?

Third base.

[BigZ]

If Duval some how comes back I think both Duval and Jones start

[jimsumner]

Trent just has a shot. Average play making abilities. We didn't see much vision from him. Defensively slow. He needs to work on his game a lot to be a successful pro.

He does indeed need to work on his game to be a successful pro.

Which he can and most likely will do in the NBA.

NBA teams have people whose entire job is to work with young players and help them improve. Any day of the year, any time of day, as long as you want.

In fact, they have an entire league devoted to the development of young talent.

And you get paid while learning and you don't need to worry about that pesky mid-term.

Which is why the he-isn't-ready-to-play-in-the-NBA argument is not really relevant. NBA teams draft guys who aren't ready all the time. And develop them.

If Trent comes back--possible but not likely--it will be because he wants another year in college not because he's been told he won't be drafted. Because he will be drafted in June should he elect to enter the draft.

[richardjackson199]

He does indeed need to work on his game to be a successful pro.

Which he can and most likely will do in the NBA.

NBA teams have people whose entire job is to work with young players and help them improve. Any day of the year, any time of day, as long as you want.

In fact, they have an entire league devoted to the development of young talent.

And you get paid while learning and you don't need to worry about that pesky mid-term.

Which is why the he-isn't-ready-to-play-in-the-NBA argument is not really relevant. NBA teams draft guys who aren't ready all the time. And develop them.

If Trent comes back--possible but not likely--it will be because he wants another year in college not because he's been told he won't be drafted. Because he will be drafted in June should he elect to enter the draft.

Thanks Jim!
My apologies if this has been posted earlier. I'm working hard this week and haven't read whole thread.
But any guess as to what Bolden will do?
I'm just assuming Bagley, Carter, Duval, and Trent are all gone. I know it isn't set in stone with Trent, but I think it's safe to assume he is gone. I know others diagree. We'll see. Just seen this movie too many times before to expect any different.
Javin and others all coming back barring some surprise.
I assume we're in good shape with Montgomery, even losing Capel. That is one question mark, and other big question mark is Bolden.
There are other possibilities like grad tranfers, etc. But that isn't something we've really seen at Duke, so I'll believe that when I see it too.

Thanks!!

[Heaven's Guardian]

That said, with no disrespect to Duval, I think there's a pretty good chance freshman Tre Jones can run an offense better than sophomore Duval. Just my opinion but I think Trent stands to get more minutes returning than Duval. I think there's a Luke-like sophomore year awaiting Trent, in which he can become our "surprise" most reliable scorer despite a ludicrous recruiting class.

I think you're right that a returning Trent would get more minutes than a returning Duval (because of lineup fit), but I also feel like Duval would make a much bigger year-to-year leap. Duval is much more like Kennard in that his freshman year showed a bunch of skills that weren't quite developed yet, but could turn into weapons with an offseason of work. Luke didn't shoot all that well as a freshman and his handle wasn't quite tight enough to create space, but the skills were almost there. In the same manner, Trevon didn't quite show the touch around the rim on some of the easier shots he created and his game sense of when to attach and when to slow down was sometimes off, both of which could really be improved in an offseason.

Conversely, Gary is more like Grayson in that both of them had some skills that translated right away, but didn't show any other nascent skills. Sophomore Grayson played exactly like freshman Grayson, just with more opportunity and improvement in the things he was already good at. Even senior Grayson never really developed the ball-handling to create separation in tight spaces or the ability to get to the rim going left, for example.

[WHOneedsSOX]

He does indeed need to work on his game to be a successful pro.

Which he can and most likely will do in the NBA.

NBA teams have people whose entire job is to work with young players and help them improve. Any day of the year, any time of day, as long as you want.

In fact, they have an entire league devoted to the development of young talent.

And you get paid while learning and you don't need to worry about that pesky mid-term.

Which is why the he-isn't-ready-to-play-in-the-NBA argument is not really relevant. NBA teams draft guys who aren't ready all the time. And develop them.

If Trent comes back--possible but not likely--it will be because he wants another year in college not because he's been told he won't be drafted. Because he will be drafted in June should he elect to enter the draft.

I agree about the development part in the NBA being a lot better but there is an advantage to going back to college and working on your game. I'm pretty sure you get paid more on your rookie contract the higher you get drafted, right? Of course if he goes pro now then he'd be getting paid right away but if he could sneak into the lottery next season, which who knows if he can, he'll be getting paid a lot more on that rookie contract.

That being said, I think it's incredibly unlikely Trent or Duval stay at Duke another year.

[Gorilla]

Gary isn't coming back. He has been on record stating that he is one and done and that's why he transferred his senior year of high school to better prepare his self against better competition

[ndkjr70]

Gary isn't coming back. He has been on record stating that he is one and done and that's why he transferred his senior year of high school to better prepare his self against better competition

That’s a nice idea to have, except there’s an issue: Who on planet earth is going to draft that kid? His “best” quality is... his shot, I guess? Which has been iffy and streaky at best. He doesn’t play any defense, doesn’t do anything without the ball, and had a few nice moves that will probably get mauled in the NBA. If I have a team I don’t use a single draft pick on him.

I love duke basketball and I love the kids who play duke basketball, but Gary Trent has absolutely no business in the NBA right now. Come back as a sophomore, knock down your shots (like Kennard) and get drafted in the 1st round. But whatever he decides, I’m sure it’s whats best for he and his family.

[Steven43]

That’s a nice idea to have, except there’s an issue: Who on planet earth is going to draft that kid? His “best” quality is... his shot, I guess? Which has been iffy and streaky at best. He doesn’t play any defense, doesn’t do anything without the ball, and had a few nice moves that will probably get mauled in the NBA. If I have a team I don’t use a single draft pick on him.

I love duke basketball and I love the kids who play duke basketball, but Gary Trent has absolutely no business in the NBA right now. Come back as a sophomore, knock down your shots (like Kennard) and get drafted in the 1st round. But whatever he decides, I’m sure it’s whats best for he and his family.

Whoa....stated with authority. Appreciate the candor.

[Pghdukie]

Add Jalen Hudson to the list. The guard out of Florida will not hire an agent.

[mr. synellinden]

Add Jalen Hudson to the list. The guard out of Florida will not hire an agent.

This should be in the going going gone thread which has dropped to page 2. This thread is for discussion of who is leaving from Duke’s team. Maybe it should be titled, Who’s Staying?

[Pghdukie]

Oops. Can the mods remove my previous post. And place it in correct thread. My apologies

[fraggler]

That’s a nice idea to have, except there’s an issue: Who on planet earth is going to draft that kid? His “best” quality is... his shot, I guess? Which has been iffy and streaky at best. He doesn’t play any defense, doesn’t do anything without the ball, and had a few nice moves that will probably get mauled in the NBA. If I have a team I don’t use a single draft pick on him.

I love duke basketball and I love the kids who play duke basketball, but Gary Trent has absolutely no business in the NBA right now. Come back as a sophomore, knock down your shots (like Kennard) and get drafted in the 1st round. But whatever he decides, I’m sure it’s whats best for he and his family.

He did hit more threes on a better percentage than Redick and Kennard as freshmen. While I agree he has a lot to work on to be NBA ready, he has a skill that is in demand and projects as a better defender than either. I am sure someone would be willing to take a chance on him in the second round, at least. Also, you can't look at him in isolation. There will be a crowded perimeter of playmakers next year- even if he improves, he will likely have a harder time showing it.

[Troublemaker]

That’s a nice idea to have, except there’s an issue: Who on planet earth is going to draft that kid? His “best” quality is... his shot, I guess? Which has been iffy and streaky at best. He doesn’t play any defense, doesn’t do anything without the ball, and had a few nice moves that will probably get mauled in the NBA. If I have a team I don’t use a single draft pick on him.

I love duke basketball and I love the kids who play duke basketball, but Gary Trent has absolutely no business in the NBA right now. Come back as a sophomore, knock down your shots (like Kennard) and get drafted in the 1st round. But whatever he decides, I’m sure it’s whats best for he and his family.

Actually, in m2m defense (which is what counts for the NBA), Gary was a good defender. He executed his team defensive assignments, and in 1-on-1 situations, he amazingly was able to stay in front of his man much better than Trevon, who has the superior physical tools.

On offense, I don't think the NBA will have much reservation about the shooting ability of someone who puts up 88% from the FT line and 40% from three. They know he can shoot. Obviously, he's not going to be able to do much else on offense at the NBA level, but that doesn't matter for someone who projects to be a role player. If he can hit threes and play solid defense, he'll have a place in the league.

Finally, if Gary declares without an agent, I suspect he's going to be someone who interviews and interacts with people very well, including when he has to compete in workouts, drills, or scrimmages. NBA teams will be impressed with his intangibles like his drive and competitiveness. He's someone that teams will look at and say, "he fits our culture."

[Troublemaker]

^ It stinks because if I could have one player back based on fit with next year's team, it'd be Gary.

I'm very concerned about 3-pt shooting next year. We have amazing talent but can they space the floor for each other, give each other room to perform, better than this year's collection of amazing talent who ultimately could not space for each other? Oh, and I would love to see a Death Lineup of Tre, Gary, RJ, Cam, and Zion being used at the end of games, at least.

Gary also can be a sophomore captain and someone you would not mind in that role. And he already has chemistry with Tre from when they both played with Apple Valley.

Finally, getting Gary back would kind of make up for Frank and Luke leaving perhaps earlier than expected in their respective Duke careers. We were one shooter short this season, and I hope we don't end up being one shooter short next season.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Gary also can be a sophomore captain and someone you would not mind in that role. And he already has chemistry with Tre from when they both played with Apple Valley.

Finally, getting Gary back would kind of make up for Frank and Luke leaving perhaps earlier than expected in their respective Duke careers. We were one shooter short this season, and I hope we don't end up being one shooter short next season.

There were times that to me, Gary seemed like the one man on the court, playing with 4 very gifted boys. Maybe I'm projecting too much from body language, and from the fact that his dad apparently grew him up very fast - but it sure seemed that way. Thus, definitely captain material as a sophomore.

And I agree on your Frank/Luke analogy......but I think Gary is going this year.

[CDu]

^ It stinks because if I could have one player back based on fit with next year's team, it'd be Gary.

I'm very concerned about 3-pt shooting next year. We have amazing talent but can they space the floor for each other, give each other room to perform, better than this year's collection of amazing talent who ultimately could not space for each other? Oh, and I would love to see a Death Lineup of Tre, Gary, RJ, Cam, and Zion being used at the end of games, at least.

Gary also can be a sophomore captain and someone you would not mind in that role. And he already has chemistry with Tre from when they both played with Apple Valley.

Finally, getting Gary back would kind of make up for Frank and Luke leaving perhaps earlier than expected in their respective Duke careers. We were one shooter short this season, and I hope we don't end up being one shooter short next season.

Probably worth noting that we basically swapped Kennard for Allen. I don't think many expected Allen to be back for his senior year before the 2016-17 season began, but we did expect Kennard back. Of course, I think Kennard was probably a better fit for this team (especially in zone defense) with his shooting and better ability to dribble in traffic. But as far as number of shooters, it was really just Jackson that we were short unexpectedly.


There were times that to me, Gary seemed like the one man on the court, playing with 4 very gifted boys. Maybe I'm projecting too much from body language, and from the fact that his dad apparently grew him up very fast - but it sure seemed that way. Thus, definitely captain material as a sophomore.

And I agree on your Frank/Luke analogy...but I think Gary is going this year.

The only thing I'd note about Trent is that - while he certainly seemed composed on the court, and was a great clutch FT shooter - his all-around game was really not advanced enough to have a leadership role. He wasn't great defensively, wasn't a good passer, wasn't a good ballhandler. It's really hard to have a leadership role as essentially a catch-and-shoot player. Outside of team huddles, if you aren't the glue defensively and you aren't a prominent ballhandler/playmaker offensively, it's really hard to lead in action.

That being said, IF (and that's a massive "if") he comes back, and if (smaller "if", but still pretty big) he improves his overall floor game, he could be a great leader. He certainly has the demeanor and confidence to lead, that's for sure.

All that said, his shooting alone would be a welcome addition to next year's team. Of course, I'd consider it a surprise if he is back.

[Dukebasketball2020]

My brother said it best whats hurting college basketball isn't the one and done guys it's the Freshman and Sophomore guys coming out early when they aren't even getting first round draft grades. Personally I think a guy like Trent would benefit from coming back because right now he just has a game based on his outside shot, he does have a good mid range game but hardly ever used it. I think what he could work on is being a more aggressive scorer attacking the basket. I see him getting drafted this year somewhere around 25-30 or second round, next year if you look I could see him going in the 10-15 range depending how good of a season he has. For Duval I think it would be in his best interest to come back even if it means coming off the bench for Duke. A few reasons why I think this. Right now I think he is a borderling line late first Round most likely second rounder. If he worked on his shot and FT shooting over the summer I think he could make himself a boat load of money. If you look at next year's mock draft there aren't many PG's out there .

[szstark]

That’s why I think Trent is more likely to come back than Duval. NBA teams will look at Duval and see a guy with the raw tools to eventually develop into an NBA player. Trent does not have those same tools, so he needs to prove he can produce before NBA teams will take him. And he hasn’t proven that yet.

I’m really curious about what Duval raw tools you are referring to. He is not a good shooter, his handle is mediocre, his decision making is suspect, and his free-throw percentage is way too low for a guard who will have his hands on the ball especially at crunch time. He is an elite athlete who can look spectacular if he can get all the way to the rim, but the NBA is loaded with athletes who can do that and also have more (or better) of the other skills. I actually have trouble seeing where he would fit on next year’s Duke team. As demonstrated this year, he is not a true point guard and he is certainly not the shooting guard it looks like we will be lacking. K would certainly find a place to play him, but he doesn’t seem to be a good fit. Would the NBA see him differently?

[freshmanjs]

I’m really curious about what Duval raw tools you are referring to. He is not a good shooter, his handle is mediocre, his decision making is suspect, and his free-throw percentage is way too low for a guard who will have his hands on the ball especially at crunch time. He is an elite athlete who can look spectacular if he can get all the way to the rim, but the NBA is loaded with athletes who can do that and also have more (or better) of the other skills. I actually have trouble seeing where he would fit on next year’s Duke team. As demonstrated this year, he is not a true point guard and he is certainly not the shooting guard it looks like we will be lacking. K would certainly find a place to play him, but he doesn’t seem to be a good fit. Would the NBA see him differently?

What is a true point guard? People keep saying that, but it seems to have no definition. Maybe it just means great point guard?

[Sir Stealth]

I don't know if those contributing to this thread are representative or not, and I certainly won't be asked my opinion by any NBA teams, but I continue to be pretty surprised by the low opinion of Trent's prospects around here. The guy has the size to be an NBA wing, shot a very impressive % from 3 as a freshman, and has a great free throw % that indicates promise as a shooter at the NBA level. I would also disagree that he hasn't demonstrated an ability to score inside the arc - he may not have elite athleticism, but looks to me like a strong kid who already has an NBA body and is resourceful at getting the ball in the basket. The improvement in his shot and release time from high school to college also suggests an ability to really work on his game and continue to get better. Wing players with these attributes are highly valued in today's NBA. Teams will also probably put some sort of intangible on the fact that he grew up in an NBA family and presumably "knows how to be a pro." I would think that Trent is ready to contribute in the league from day one and would certainly draft him in the first round.

There is a lot to like with Duval, but I think he is much more of a project. There are still valuable distributors in the NBA who aren't good shooters, even as outside shooting is emphasized more and more, but Tre didn't quite demonstrate the level of feel you'd want in a player like that. It's possible that with the floor opened up a little bit more Duval will be able to make better use of his ball handling skills and athleticism, but he will need to raise his vision/feel and finishing ability to an elite level to overcome that limited shot relatively poor free throw shooting. The NBA is also deep with quality point guards right now, and most teams aren't going to be crying out for one who is limited in key aspects of his game.

[Spanarkel]

My brother said it best whats hurting college basketball isn't the one and done guys it's the Freshman and Sophomore guys coming out early when they aren't even getting first round draft grades. Personally I think a guy like Trent would benefit from coming back because right now he just has a game based on his outside shot, he does have a good mid range game but hardly ever used it. I think what he could work on is being a more aggressive scorer attacking the basket. I see him getting drafted this year somewhere around 25-30 or second round, next year if you look I could see him going in the 10-15 range depending how good of a season he has. For Duval I think it would be in his best interest to come back even if it means coming off the bench for Duke. A few reasons why I think this. Right now I think he is a borderling line late first Round most likely second rounder. If he worked on his shot and FT shooting over the summer I think he could make himself a boat load of money. If you look at next year's mock draft there aren't many PG's out there .

Trent Jr. made 80 two point FGs(6 of which were dunks)and the majority of his ~100 FTs were generated by his mid-range game.

[CDu]

I don't know if those contributing to this thread are representative or not, and I certainly won't be asked my opinion by any NBA teams, but I continue to be pretty surprised by the low opinion of Trent's prospects around here. The guy has the size to be an NBA wing, shot a very impressive % from 3 as a freshman, and has a great free throw % that indicates promise as a shooter at the NBA level. I would also disagree that he hasn't demonstrated an ability to score inside the arc - he may not have elite athleticism, but looks to me like a strong kid who already has an NBA body and is resourceful at getting the ball in the basket. The improvement in his shot and release time from high school to college also suggests an ability to really work on his game and continue to get better. Wing players with these attributes are highly valued in today's NBA. Teams will also probably put some sort of intangible on the fact that he grew up in an NBA family and presumably "knows how to be a pro." I would think that Trent is ready to contribute in the league from day one and would certainly draft him in the first round.

I'm no expert either, though I do dabble. :)

That caveat presented, the issue is that, while Trent is a terrific shooter, and physically strong, he's not really good at anything else. He has good size/strength for a guard, but he's not terribly quick and doesn't dribble well. So he's got the skill set of a combo forward (SF/PF), but the size of a SG.

In college, he's very playable at SF, and could even get away with playing up occasionally at PF in a smallball lineup thanks to his strength. And given the lower level of size, athleticism, and talent at the college level, you can get away with having a SG/SF who doesn't do much besides shoot.

It's just really hard to profile him as a starter on a good NBA team unless he shows more defensive acumen or better ballhandling/passing skills. If he could improve his defense, he'd be a nice "3 and D" option. But right now, he's just a "3" option, and that's hard to sell as a 1st round pick in the NBA. And that's why you see guys like the DraftExpress guys (now at ESPN) projecting him as a mid-second round guy.


There is a lot to like with Duval, but I think he is much more of a project. There are still valuable distributors in the NBA who aren't good shooters, even as outside shooting is emphasized more and more, but Tre didn't quite demonstrate the level of feel you'd want in a player like that. It's possible that with the floor opened up a little bit more Duval will be able to make better use of his ball handling skills and athleticism, but he will need to raise his vision/feel and finishing ability to an elite level to overcome that limited shot relatively poor free throw shooting. The NBA is also deep with quality point guards right now, and most teams aren't going to be crying out for one who is limited in key aspects of his game.

I agree here. Whereas Trent has a pretty clear floor as a backup shooter in the NBA, Duval has much more "bust" potential. Like you said, he is a poor shooter, doesn't make great decisions with the ball, isn't as secure with his dribble as he needs to be. He's also a bit lead-footed defensively, which allows him to get blown by a lot. And despite being a terrific run/jump athlete he isn't great at finishing at the rim.

He does have terrific run/jump athleticism, and I actually think he has fantastic court vision and passing skills. But the maturity in his game has a long way to go. I think he has a much higher ceiling than Trent does, but he also has a much lower floor. Which is why he, too, is viewed as a mid-second rounder by ESPN's DraftExpress guys.

[jimsumner]

I agree about the development part in the NBA being a lot better but there is an advantage to going back to college and working on your game. I'm pretty sure you get paid more on your rookie contract the higher you get drafted, right? Of course if he goes pro now then he'd be getting paid right away but if he could sneak into the lottery next season, which who knows if he can, he'll be getting paid a lot more on that rookie contract
That being said, I think it's incredibly unlikely Trent or Duval stay at Duke another year.

I agree. The second contract can be more important and more lucrative than the first. So, how does one best position oneself to maximize that second contract? Get to the NBA as soon as possible, or develop in college and delay the start of the NBA clock?

Obviously, different prospects have different answers to that question.

My response wasn't directed to any individual as much as a common misperception that basketball players can only get better by staying in college. Almost by definition, this is a college-centric board and more than a few posters are proud of how little interest they have in the NBA.

Which is fine and dandy.

But talented, young basketball players do not share that disinterest. The NBA is hot, hot, hot now. Even casual sports fan know the exploits of LeBron James, Steph Curry, James Harden, Kevin Durant, et. al. Notice how many TV commercials show NBA players? Seen Mike Trout on your TV off the field lately?

Top prep players lust after the NBA more than they lust after college ball. Not all, of course, and reality eventually kicks in and most recognize that some college internship is required, maybe even a college education.

But as little as necessary, all too often.

And NBA teams have recognized that they are going to be drafting and signing raw, untutored prospects. So, they've invested a lot in turning these players into polished, tutored prospects. There's a huge infrastructure in place to just that end.

So, even schools with the advantages of Duke are fighting an uphill battle against a basketball culture that values getting to the NBA as soon as possible. I think we need to abandon the idea that so-and-so shouldn't go to the NBA because they aren't finished products. They can and will become finished products at the next level.

[cato]

Even casual sports fan know the exploits of LeBron James, Steph Curry, James Harden, Kevin Durant, et. al. Notice how many TV commercials show NBA players? Seen Mike Trout on your TV off the field lately?


Mike who? :p

[UrinalCake]

I’m really curious about what Duval raw tools you are referring to.

I was referring to the measurements and performance testing that they do at the combine. Physically he'll show great height and wingspan for a point guard. Performance-wise I think his shuttle run, lane agility, sprinting, vertical leap, etc. will measure out extremely well. Probably in the range of someone like Dennis Smith.

Frank Jackson also measured really well and that was part of why he generated some buzz and could feel secure that he'd be a late first round/early second round pick. I think Duval could be in a similar position. Although in Frank's case he had proven over the course of a season that he could hit threes which is a huge differentiator.

[szstark]

What is a true point guard? People keep saying that, but it seems to have no definition. Maybe it just means great point guard?

Obviously I can only speak for myself, but when I think of a true point guard I think of guard who has a great handle, one who can score but is more primarily a distributor who gets the ball to others in the right position at the right time, and one who can hit a high percentage of free throws in pressure situations. Using Duke examples, Johnny Dawkins, Jason Williams, and recently Grayson Allen all played the point guard position, but they weren’t true point guards by my definition. Hurley was probably the best example of a true point guard, not only because of his record setting stats, but because he epitomized my concept of a point guard by making everyone around him better by controlling the team through distribution and leadership. Wojo and Tyus Jones would also fit into that category. I know there are probably all shades of gray here, but you asked so I answered.

[jipops]

I agree. The second contract can be more important and more lucrative than the first. So, how does one best position oneself to maximize that second contract? Get to the NBA as soon as possible, or develop in college and delay the start of the NBA clock?

Obviously, different prospects have different answers to that question.

My response wasn't directed to any individual as much as a common misperception that basketball players can only get better by staying in college. Almost by definition, this is a college-centric board and more than a few posters are proud of how little interest they have in the NBA.

Which is fine and dandy.

But talented, young basketball players do not share that disinterest. The NBA is hot, hot, hot now. Even casual sports fan know the exploits of LeBron James, Steph Curry, James Harden, Kevin Durant, et. al. Notice how many TV commercials show NBA players? Seen Mike Trout on your TV off the field lately?

Top prep players lust after the NBA more than they lust after college ball. Not all, of course, and reality eventually kicks in and most recognize that some college internship is required, maybe even a college education.

But as little as necessary, all too often.

And NBA teams have recognized that they are going to be drafting and signing raw, untutored prospects. So, they've invested a lot in turning these players into polished, tutored prospects. There's a huge infrastructure in place to just that end.

So, even schools with the advantages of Duke are fighting an uphill battle against a basketball culture that values getting to the NBA as soon as possible. I think we need to abandon the idea that so-and-so shouldn't go to the NBA because they aren't finished products. They can and will become finished products at the next level.

I think a great example of this is the Spurs' shooting coach Chip Engelland. Look how well that has worked out for Kawhi Leonard who wasn't much of a shooter at all when coming in to the NBA. As pretty much stated, the notion that players only get better when returning to college is simply not true. With resources available now in the NBA and its developmental league, a player probably stands a greater chance in augmenting his existing skills by leaving. And this helps the NBA as players become much more of a known commodity at a younger age instead of 4 years of college and 3 years into the league (by then a 25 year old instead of a 21-22 year old).

It really wouldn't make any sense for Trent to stay. He's not going to become magically more athletic either way. But he's very strong physically and he has a lot of potential as a shooter. That is enough for a team to take him and roll the dice on how well he'll end up working for them. At best he'll be a role player - possibly even just a bit player - but role and bit players that stick in the NBA make a ridiculous amount of money. And for Trent it's an opportunity to make money now and further hone his craft. Which makes a lot more sense than essentially doing it for free while another entity makes $ off of those exploits.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I’m really curious about what Duval raw tools you are referring to. He is not a good shooter, his handle is mediocre, his decision making is suspect, and his free-throw percentage is way too low for a guard who will have his hands on the ball especially at crunch time. He is an elite athlete who can look spectacular if he can get all the way to the rim, but the NBA is loaded with athletes who can do that and also have more (or better) of the other skills. I actually have trouble seeing where he would fit on next year’s Duke team. As demonstrated this year, he is not a true point guard and he is certainly not the shooting guard it looks like we will be lacking. K would certainly find a place to play him, but he doesn’t seem to be a good fit. Would the NBA see him differently?

Duval assists/turnovers per game: 5.6/2.8

Tyus Jones assists/turnovers per game: 5.6/1.9

Yes - Tyus's turnovers are better. But 5.6 assists per game is nothing to laugh at. DUVAL IS A TRUE POINT GUARD.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I think a great example of this is the Spurs' shooting coach Chip Engelland. Look how well that has worked out for Kawhi Leonard who wasn't much of a shooter at all when coming in to the NBA. .

Wow, a Chip Engelland sighting.....I had no idea what he was up to these days.....one of the Foster/K guys.....

[Troublemaker]

It really wouldn't make any sense for Trent to stay.

The one hope we have is the weakness of the 2019 draft. Close followers of recruiting have known about this for a couple of years now, but it's starting to seep into the general public as well. DraftExpress/ESPN makes mention of it in the next-to-last paragraph of this article here (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22854438/testing-nba-draft-waters-more-complicated-sounds). And the weakness of the 2019 draft is supposedly a factor in Daniel Gafford's surprising decision to return to school.

[kako]

https://sports.yahoo.com/several-duke-freshmen-may-grayson-181052963.html

Just read this article. Key quote:

“It was a great season. I had a lot of fun, but every good thing has to come to an end sometime,” Duval said. “I’m just happy that I got to play with this group of guys and to play for (coach Mike Krzyzewski) and be a part of this program.”

Sounds like he's at least mentally gone. I would have loved for him to stay another year, but the magic 8-ball seems to be saying "My sources say no".

On to Jones (with a progressing Goldwire as backup).

[UrinalCake]

Look how well that has worked out for Kawhi Leonard who wasn't much of a shooter at all when coming in to the NBA.

Leonard was/is a freak athlete. Trent is not. I think to be a first round pick you have to either be a freak athlete OR you have to have shown a lot of basketball skill, or possibly both. NBA teams don't pick non-freak athletes who also haven't demonstrated basketball skill on the assumption that they will develop those skills. Now people keep saying Trent is a shooter and pointing to his percentages, and I agree that is a valuable skill. But there are lot of other players who also shoot the ball well and on top of that do other things better too or have proven more, which is why Trent is projected in the 40's. Is it worth the risk of being drafted mid-second round and working his way up? Only he can decide that.

[Ian]

Leonard was/is a freak athlete. Trent is not. I think to be a first round pick you have to either be a freak athlete OR you have to have shown a lot of basketball skill, or possibly both. NBA teams don't pick non-freak athletes who also haven't demonstrated basketball skill on the assumption that they will develop those skills. Now people keep saying Trent is a shooter and pointing to his percentages, and I agree that is a valuable skill. But there are lot of other players who also shoot the ball well and on top of that do other things better too or have proven more, which is why Trent is projected in the 40's. Is it worth the risk of being drafted mid-second round and working his way up? Only he can decide that.

The problem with being drafted in the 2nd rd is that the teams have no obligation to sign him or to invest much in him development, and certainly won't give him a roster spot. If he is drafted around 45, he'll be playing most of next year in the D-League trying to get better, he might get a couple cups of coffee with the big club. He will probably make $500K+ though. The question is whether that's what he wants.

[proelitedota]

Duval assists/turnovers per game: 5.6/2.8

Tyus Jones assists/turnovers per game: 5.6/1.9

Yes - Tyus's turnovers are better. But 5.6 assists per game is nothing to laugh at. DUVAL IS A TRUE POINT GUARD.

He was absolutely one of the better freshmen point guards but his inability to shoot or rebound defensively cost us most of our losses.

[CDu]

Leonard was/is a freak athlete. Trent is not. I think to be a first round pick you have to either be a freak athlete OR you have to have shown a lot of basketball skill, or possibly both. NBA teams don't pick non-freak athletes who also haven't demonstrated basketball skill on the assumption that they will develop those skills. Now people keep saying Trent is a shooter and pointing to his percentages, and I agree that is a valuable skill. But there are lot of other players who also shoot the ball well and on top of that do other things better too or have proven more, which is why Trent is projected in the 40's. Is it worth the risk of being drafted mid-second round and working his way up? Only he can decide that.

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up. He's a very good shooter, especially at the free throw line. But he isn't quick, doesn't handle the ball well, doesn't pass well, and isn't dynamic off the ball (basically a spot-up player off-ball). And he's not terribly run/jump athletic, so he doesn't seem to have a huge upward mobility projection wise. That's why he's not likely to be a 1st round pick.

That being said, BECAUSE he's not a great run/jump athlete, it's hard to envision him dramatically improving his draft stock by returning. So if he's not likely to dramatically improve his draft stock, he may very well decide that (a) he'd rather go to the NBA now, where he can spend more time on his individual game without the burden of coaching time restrictions and coursework, and (b) he can get paid while working on things, and (c) realize his dream of playing in the NBA.

The other side is that, if you are a 2nd rounder now, but ARE able to improve your stock to the first-round pick (or even the lottery) level by staying another year, you can dramatically improve your chances of an NBA future. Teams have varying degrees of investment in their second round picks. Some teams are willing to flat out sell those picks off (ahem, Bulls). Some do see the value in second rounders. But EVERYONE is going to make sure that they give their first round picks the best chance to succeed. The investment is so much greater, both financially (guaranteed money) and in opportunity cost. So if he's confident he can bump his stock up from second round to first by returning, then it probably behooves him to return.

It really is a matter of how much he wants to gamble on his future. And as you said, that's a question only he can answer. My suspicion is that he'll go pro now, but you just don't know until the kid decides.

[FerryFor50]

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up. He's a very good shooter, especially at the free throw line. But he isn't quick, doesn't handle the ball well, doesn't pass well, and isn't dynamic off the ball (basically a spot-up player off-ball). And he's not terribly run/jump athletic, so he doesn't seem to have a huge upward mobility projection wise. That's why he's not likely to be a 1st round pick.

That being said, BECAUSE he's not a great run/jump athlete, it's hard to envision him dramatically improving his draft stock by returning. So if he's not likely to dramatically improve his draft stock, he may very well decide that (a) he'd rather go to the NBA now, where he can spend more time on his individual game without the burden of coaching time restrictions and coursework, and (b) he can get paid while working on things, and (c) realize his dream of playing in the NBA.

The other side is that, if you are a 2nd rounder now, but ARE able to improve your stock to the first-round pick (or even the lottery) level by staying another year, you can dramatically improve your chances of an NBA future. Teams have varying degrees of investment in their second round picks. Some teams are willing to flat out sell those picks off (ahem, Bulls). Some do see the value in second rounders. But EVERYONE is going to make sure that they give their first round picks the best chance to succeed. The investment is so much greater, both financially (guaranteed money) and in opportunity cost. So if he's confident he can bump his stock up from second round to first by returning, then it probably behooves him to return.

It really is a matter of how much he wants to gamble on his future. And as you said, that's a question only he can answer. My suspicion is that he'll go pro now, but you just don't know until the kid decides.

Would you say Trent is more or less athletic than, say, a Bradley Beal? Because they are similar in size, stature and college production.

[Acymetric]

Would you say Trent is more or less athletic than, say, a Bradley Beal? Because they are similar in size, stature and college production.

They are listed that way, but I see almost no way that can be true (Trent appears much more slender than Beal). At the very least, I would say Beal is stronger. I would probably argue more athletic overall but I haven't watched Beal play enough (and don't recall his college play well enough) to really compare fairly.

[azzefkram]

... but his inability to shoot or rebound defensively cost us most of our losses.

This is just plain crazypants. Tre had his warts but this is one of the sillier statements I've read. Defensive rebounding is a luxury in a point guard and is probably more associated strategy than a player's talent. As to shooting, there wasn't a single loss this year that was the result of Tre's poor shooting.

[jamos14]

Would you say Trent is more or less athletic than, say, a Bradley Beal? Because they are similar in size, stature and college production.

That's a great question. Trent had better numbers and was on a better team too.

And Beal just got $175 million dollar contract.

But there was obviously some differences because he was selected 3rd overall.

[Ian]

Would you say Trent is more or less athletic than, say, a Bradley Beal? Because they are similar in size, stature and college production.

Much less. Trent is closer to Doron Lamb. Who despite shooting 47% from 3 at UK, got drafted 41st and washed out of the NBA after the initial 2 year contract. He shot decently in the NBA, 37% from 3, but couldn't do anything else well.

[FerryFor50]

That's a great question. Trent had better numbers and was on a better team too.

And Beal just got $175 million dollar contract.

But there was obviously some differences because he was selected 3rd overall.

One difference was the draft class that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_NBA_draft

Didn't have the same talent level as this season IMO.

[Acymetric]

This is just plain crazypants. Tre had his warts but this is one of the sillier statements I've read. Defensive rebounding is a luxury in a point guard and is probably more associated strategy than a player's talent. As to shooting, there wasn't a single loss this year that was the result of Tre's poor shooting.

Well, you could argue that UNC in the ACC Tourney would qualify (0-6 from the field, 0-3 from the line in a 5 point loss), but it is true that generally we won in games where Duval shot poorly (although the margin was closer than maybe it needed to be). If you were to point to one of his stats in some of our losses, it would be turnovers (both quantity and situational impact), but of course that was not the only factor in any of those losses and there was always blame to go around.

[FerryFor50]

Well, you could argue that UNC in the ACC Tourney would qualify (0-6 from the field, 0-3 from the line in a 5 point loss), but it is true that generally we won in games where Duval shot poorly (although the margin was closer than maybe it needed to be). If you were to point to one of his stats in some of our losses, it would be turnovers (both quantity and situational impact), but of course that was not the only factor in any of those losses and there was always blame to go around.

I feel like the UNC loss had more to do with Duval's ankle injury than his shooting.

[mr. synellinden]

Would you say Trent is more or less athletic than, say, a Bradley Beal? Because they are similar in size, stature and college production.

I'll throw another name out there with the same question - Devin Booker. Almost the same size - similar freshman year stats, although Booker was a better 2pt shooter.

[whereinthehellami]

Another point to consider between developing in college for another year or the D-league is branding. In college Trent will be a fixture on national TV, Duke is on TV more than any other team and has a chance to become more of a story/household name. That is not going to happen in the D-league. Playing in the D-league is depressing. I still think Trent goes and gets drafted in the second round. The kid is confident, has NBA ties thanks to his dad. Also he is really close to Carter, their relationship kind of reminds me of Jones/Okafor. I always wondered how much Okafor leaving played into Jones decision to go. It would be hard to watch your close buddy go pro without you, even though it probably wasn't the best professional decision for him.

[FerryFor50]

I'll throw another name out there with the same question - Devin Booker. Almost the same size - similar freshman year stats, although Booker was a better 2pt shooter.

That actually is a better comp. Booker was knocked for his athleticism coming out of college, too.

[Acymetric]

I feel like the UNC loss had more to do with Duval's ankle injury than his shooting.

The two may have been related ;)

[kAzE]

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up. He's a very good shooter, especially at the free throw line. But he isn't quick, doesn't handle the ball well, doesn't pass well, and isn't dynamic off the ball (basically a spot-up player off-ball). And he's not terribly run/jump athletic, so he doesn't seem to have a huge upward mobility projection wise. That's why he's not likely to be a 1st round pick.

That being said, BECAUSE he's not a great run/jump athlete, it's hard to envision him dramatically improving his draft stock by returning. So if he's not likely to dramatically improve his draft stock, he may very well decide that (a) he'd rather go to the NBA now, where he can spend more time on his individual game without the burden of coaching time restrictions and coursework, and (b) he can get paid while working on things, and (c) realize his dream of playing in the NBA.

What about d) Spend another year under the tutelage of the greatest basketball coach of all time, being the perfect complimentary piece (as a shooting specialist) to 3 future NBA all-stars, playing on national TV 30-40 times, and learning how to become a leader on a team with National Championship aspirations?

Not saying any of that could or should matter to Gary Trent, but it is certainly something to consider. Obviously, his presence on next year's team would be a HUGE positive, as he would most likely be the only guy who played more than 13 minutes per game this season.

$500k is absolutely nothing to sneeze at, but playing in the G-League and playing for Duke University are kind of polar opposites in terms of exposure.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Would you say Trent is more or less athletic than, say, a Bradley Beal? Because they are similar in size, stature and college production.

I'd say Beal is definitely quicker. He blows by guys in the NBA. Can't recall Trent ever doing that more than a few times.

Just searched "Gary Trent NBA comparison" and one name that came up was Wes Matthews. Makes sense since Matthews is more of that 3rd/4th piece that mainly just shoots but Matthews is a very good defender. Sort of that prototypical 3 and D type players that NBA teams love. Hopefully Trent can carve out a role like that.

[jv001]

He was absolutely one of the better freshmen point guards but his inability to shoot or rebound defensively cost us most of our losses.

I won't say Trevon cost us the most losses this season. Matter of fact, he along with Grayson were the two best defenders of our outside/wing players. He along with everyone else contributed to our losses. I would have liked to have seen Duval shoot better this season, but I would have liked to have seen Grayson and Gary shoot better later in the season. Blaming one player is just not right. If that was the reason for our losses, Coach K would have benched Trevon and played Grayson at the point for most of the season. I think Trevon really improved by years end. The end just came too soon. GoDuke

[WHOneedsSOX]

I won't say Trevon cost us the most losses this season. Matter of fact, he along with Grayson were the two best defenders of our outside/wing players. He along with everyone else contributed to our losses. I would have liked to have seen Duval shoot better this season, but I would have liked to have seen Grayson and Gary shoot better later in the season. Blaming one player is just not right. If that was the reason for our losses, Coach K would have benched Trevon and played Grayson at the point for most of the season. I think Trevon really improved by years end. The end just came too soon. GoDuke

Playing point guard for Coach K is hard. Even harder when you play with 2 lottery picks and 2 other future NBA players. Have to get everyone involved while also being the coach on the floor. I thought Duval had a pretty good season and definitely got better as the season went on. Think it helped putting the ball in Allen's hands more allowing Duval to not have to play under so much pressure.

[CDu]

Would you say Trent is more or less athletic than, say, a Bradley Beal? Because they are similar in size, stature and college production.

Trebt is definitely less athletic (especially in quickness, but also run/jump), with substantially less guard skills (ballhandling, passing).

[kAzE]

Playing point guard for Coach K is hard. Even harder when you play with 2 lottery picks and 2 other future NBA players. Have to get everyone involved while also being the coach on the floor. I thought Duval had a pretty good season and definitely got better as the season went on. Think it helped putting the ball in Allen's hands more allowing Duval to not have to play under so much pressure.

I already feel bad about the inevitable negative Tre Jones posts that will happen next season. Being a freshman point guard is one of the hardest things to deal with in college basketball.

[WHOneedsSOX]

I already feel bad about the inevitable negative Tre Jones posts that will happen next season. Being a freshman point guard is one of the hardest things to deal with in college basketball.

Especially hard considering in high school they were probably expected and allowed to do whatever they wanted. They didn't have to pass the ball and get others involved. Tyus Jones spoiled us and set the bar impossibly high by being pretty much the perfect point guard.

[kako]

He was absolutely one of the better freshmen point guards but his inability to shoot or rebound defensively cost us most of our losses.

I was one of Duval's critics, but this is totally unfair. All things being equal, no one player costs a team a loss. Just like one offensive doesn't cost us a loss, one substitution (or lack thereof) doesn't cost us a loss, one foul doesn't cost us a loss, one call doesn't cost us a loss, etc. It's at least a 40 minute game, and there are 10 players on the court at any time, plus 3 refs and 2 head coaches. Everything works in concert. Could Duval have gotten us more wins if he regularly went 10-10 from 3? Probably. But if the rest of the team turned over the ball every other set, we lose. So to say he "cost us most of our losses" is plain wrong.

9F

[proelitedota]

I was one of Duval's critics, but this is totally unfair. All things being equal, no one player costs a team a loss. Just like one offensive doesn't cost us a loss, one substitution (or lack thereof) doesn't cost us a loss, one foul doesn't cost us a loss, one call doesn't cost us a loss, etc. It's at least a 40 minute game, and there are 10 players on the court at any time, plus 3 refs and 2 head coaches. Everything works in concert. Could Duval have gotten us more wins if he regularly went 10-10 from 3? Probably. But if the rest of the team turned over the ball every other set, we lose. So to say he "cost us most of our losses" is plain wrong.

9F

He had the worst shooting from the 3 and FT of all the guards we've ever had. If he was an average shooter for the Duke team, we would have being punishing Bagley's double team night in and out during conference and later season play. It's more than his actual shooting on the losses we had, it's the spacing issues that his reputation caused. If he was a 40% shooter from 3 going into conference play, he didn't even need to shoot on most nights for our offense to benefit.

[Ian]

I already feel bad about the inevitable negative Tre Jones posts that will happen next season. Being a freshman point guard is one of the hardest things to deal with in college basketball.

That's the problem with players who come in with the OAD mindset. The fans have no patience for them to develop. It's like a professional situation, where either you produce now or your're wasing our time. I think Tre will get a little more patience, both because of his brother's good will with the fans, and that he's not set in stone OAD like Duval.

[kako]

Especially hard considering in high school they were probably expected and allowed to do whatever they wanted. They didn't have to pass the ball and get others involved. Tyus Jones spoiled us and set the bar impossibly high by being pretty much the perfect point guard.

Imagine what some people might have said about Hurley's freshman year if the Internet was around? Especially after getting hammered by UNLV in the final?

[Wander]

Tyus Jones spoiled us and set the bar impossibly high by being pretty much the perfect point guard.

Agreed, but it wasn't only the people skeptical of Duval who kept the bar there. Duval probably would have gotten a little bit less grief on DBR if some prominent posters hadn't kept insisting that he was as good as Tyus Jones long after it became abundantly clear that wasn't true.

[Acymetric]

Imagine what some people might have said about Hurley's freshman year if the Internet was around? Especially after getting hammered by UNLV in the final?

But in the case of Hurley, the valid rebuttal (whether accepted by the critics or not) is that he is a freshman and will improve next year. Not applicable in these cases.

[sagegrouse]

I'm no expert either, though I do dabble. :)

That caveat presented, the issue is that, while Trent is a terrific shooter, and physically strong, he's not really good at anything else. He has good size/strength for a guard, but he's not terribly quick and doesn't dribble well. So he's got the skill set of a combo forward (SF/PF), but the size of a SG.

In college, he's very playable at SF, and could even get away with playing up occasionally at PF in a smallball lineup thanks to his strength. And given the lower level of size, athleticism, and talent at the college level, you can get away with having a SG/SF who doesn't do much besides shoot.

It's just really hard to profile him as a starter on a good NBA team unless he shows more defensive acumen or better ballhandling/passing skills. If he could improve his defense, he'd be a nice "3 and D" option. But right now, he's just a "3" option, and that's hard to sell as a 1st round pick in the NBA. And that's why you see guys like the DraftExpress guys (now at ESPN) projecting him as a mid-second round guy.



I agree here. Whereas Trent has a pretty clear floor as a backup shooter in the NBA, Duval has much more "bust" potential. Like you said, he is a poor shooter, doesn't make great decisions with the ball, isn't as secure with his dribble as he needs to be. He's also a bit lead-footed defensively, which allows him to get blown by a lot. And despite being a terrific run/jump athlete he isn't great at finishing at the rim.

He does have terrific run/jump athleticism, and I actually think he has fantastic court vision and passing skills. But the maturity in his game has a long way to go. I think he has a much higher ceiling than Trent does, but he also has a much lower floor. Which is why he, too, is viewed as a mid-second rounder by ESPN's DraftExpress guys.

Not picking on you, CDu, and I enjoy your posts.

Here's what Gary Trent, Jr. has:

The shot -- anyone want to argue?
The body -- physically mature well beyond his years, which suggests he is gonna be a beast at age 25
The genes -- the Shaq of the MAC played ten years in the NBA

Here's what the NBA has:

The bench -- 15 players not counting the two extras
The patience -- in part because of the long bench
Coaching - how many of those tall dudes in suits are on the sidelines -- at least six, plus maybe other resources for physical training and specialized skills

As an NBA draft choice, I think Trent skews upwards beyond his current skills.

[uh_no]

Agreed, but it wasn't only the people skeptical of Duval who kept the bar there. Duval probably would have gotten a little bit less grief on DBR if some prominent posters hadn't kept insisting that he was as good as Tyus Jones long after it became abundantly clear that wasn't true.

This is a straw man. He was better than Tyus at some things. He was worse at Tyus at some things. Any overall comparison of the relative worth of the things each was better at is bound to be subjective. I don't recall anyone trying to force such an argument, and my recollection is that most posts which tended in that direction were in response to the copious number of "Duval is crap" like posts which were both frequent, and frankly, embarrassing to me as a member of this board.

[IrishDevil]

But in the case of Hurley, the valid rebuttal (whether accepted by the critics or not) is that he is a freshman and will improve next year. Not applicable in these cases.

Both mitigating elements of your valid rebuttal are absolutely applicable in these cases. Duval is young and will improve, and so the same reasons to be a bit more understanding in criticism of him hold true. Duval does not become older and unable to improve simply because that maturing and improving won't happen at Duke.

[Wander]

This is a straw man. He was better than Tyus at some things. He was worse at Tyus at some things. Any overall comparison of the relative worth of the things each was better at is bound to be subjective. I don't recall anyone trying to force such an argument, and my recollection is that most posts which tended in that direction were in response to the copious number of "Duval is crap" like posts which were both frequent, and frankly, embarrassing to me as a member of this board.

"Player A is better than Player B at some things, Player B is better than Player A at some things" is a statement you can say about basically any two basketball players ever. I can't say Lebron James is better than JJ Redick because I can name a couple things JJ is better than Lebron at? Get that weak stuff out of here.

[mpj96]

Tre definitely wasn't in the same league as Tyus, but he was a great point guard for a freshmen. As has been stated above, great point guards don't show it early. I remember thinking Hurley was awful and ridiculous after his first game against UNC.

Looked it up online. Here is a recap from the NYT his senior year:

A lifetime ago, Rice had added the loud reminders to Hurley's first game against North Carolina at Chapel Hill, probably Hurley's worst game of his college career: 2-for-9 shooting, 1 assist, 10 turnovers and much verbal abuse.

[Acymetric]

Both mitigating elements of your valid rebuttal are absolutely applicable in these cases. Duval is young and will improve, and so the same reasons to be a bit more understanding in criticism of him hold true. Duval does not become older and unable to improve simply because that maturing and improving won't happen at Duke.

From a player perspective, and an NBA perspective, yes. From an evaluate our team perspective, the "young" explanation for inconsistent or poor play does not carry much weight if the strategy is inherently to be young. In other words, you can't say "the best thing about freshmen is that they become sophomores" about guys who will not become sophomores. So the expectation is (and should be) that OAD freshmen will still have issues related to youth, but should be better prepared/more advanced than a typical freshman. So the "he's a freshman" line still applies, but carries much less weight.

[szstark]

Duval assists/turnovers per game: 5.6/2.8

Tyus Jones assists/turnovers per game: 5.6/1.9

Yes - Tyus's turnovers are better. But 5.6 assists per game is nothing to laugh at. DUVAL IS A TRUE POINT GUARD.

We could go back and forth on this all day - 102 turnovers is nothing to laugh at either. As I said in a later statement, there are many shades of gray here. Danny Ferry is 8th on the all time Duke assists list with 506, but I don’t think anyone would call him a true point guard. Duval was asked to play point guard early in the season - by mid-season he was “unasked”. A true point guard is a playmaker, not just for himself, but for his teammates. Yes, I can remember some really good feeds he made off of drives into the lane, but they were the exceptions, not the rule. As the season progressed, it looked to me that defenses backed off Duval - this allowed them to pack the lane accomplishing two things: it made it more difficult for our bigs to receive the ball let alone score and it made it more difficult for our guards to drive the middle because of the congestion. Could you imagine anyone doing that against Hurley, or Jones, or Amaker, or Duhon, or Wojo? Yes, I know I’ve chosen some of our best ever point guards, but my point stands that you can’t employ that strategy against a true point guard - he will make you pay. I’ll go one step further, I think that Kansas played a 5 versus 4 defensive strategy saying “let’s stop the other four and let Duval beat us if he can”. Despite one of his better offensive performances, Duval still did not have the passing skills or shooting skills or decision making skills to make Kansas pay the ultimate price for employing that strategy. I am not blaming the loss on Duval (there were many contributing factors), but I think the presence of a true point guard would have made a difference.

[uh_no]

"Player A is better than Player B at some things, Player B is better than Player A at some things" is a statement you can say about basically any two basketball players ever. I can't say Lebron James is better than JJ Redick because I can name a couple things JJ is better than Lebron at? Get that weak stuff out of here.

Did you invest in straw men this week? :D

[WVDUKEFAN]

Not picking on you, CDu, and I enjoy your posts.

Here's what Gary Trent, Jr. has:

The shot -- anyone want to argue?
The body -- physically mature well beyond his years, which suggests he is gonna be a beast at age 25
The genes -- the Shaq of the MAC played ten years in the NBA

Here's what the NBA has:

The bench -- 15 players not counting the two extras
The patience -- in part because of the long bench
Coaching - how many of those tall dudes in suits are on the sidelines -- at least six, plus maybe other resources for physical training and specialized skills

As an NBA draft choice, I think Trent skews upwards beyond his current skills.

I think "the shot" is debatable. If he had "the shot" we'd be playing this weekend.

[Ian]

I think "the shot" is debatable. If he had "the shot" we'd be playing this weekend.

And I'd question the "genes" also. His father was a PF banger in the NBA, he's going to be a SG perimeter guy, completely different skill sets required for success. So his father's success is largely irrelevant to his pro prospects.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think "the shot" is debatable. If he had "the shot" we'd be playing this weekend.

Yeah. Can't have an off day, right?

Geez.

[cato]

I think "the shot" is debatable. If he had "the shot" we'd be playing this weekend.

Luke Kennard shot 1-5 from 3 in the loss to Oregon in the NCAA his freshman year. He struggled from 3 more than Trent did this year. I would not extrapolate from one or two games, or even one season shooting from the college 3 point line.

[mr. synellinden]

I think "the shot" is debatable. If he had "the shot" we'd be playing this weekend.

Because he short poorly in Omaha does not mean he does not have the shot. He shot 40% from 3pt. range this season and over 85% from the line. And during the season he shot about 97% from the line in the last 5 minutes of games. There has been analysis that FT shooting is one of the best predictors of future jump shooting improvement. He has the shot. He has the size. He is an NBA player. How much he improves his passing, his handle and his defense while being coached in the NBA will determine how successful an NBA career he has.

By the way, does anyone think he couldn't or wouldn't make the same type of improvement in his sophomore year that Kennard did? Trent had a better freshman season for sure. In my mind he's definitely an NBA player and could be a starter pretty soon.

[fraggler]

I think "the shot" is debatable. If he had "the shot" we'd be playing this weekend.

Have you seen JJ's shooting percentages in NCAA losses? Would you say he didn't have "the shot" because of those performances?

[House P]

If he is drafted around 45, he'll be playing most of next year in the D-League trying to get better, he might get a couple cups of coffee with the big club. He will probably make $500K+ though.

For what it is worth, it seems that nearly* every player drafted between 31 and 50 ends up with a 2 year guaranteed contract at the NBA minimum salary. For 2018, that will be worth a total of $2,236,077 over two years.

So even if Gary and Trevon don't get drafted until the early/mid second round, they are likely to get multi-million dollar contracts. They could still end up spending the year slogging through the G-league, but they should be pretty well compensated.

Here is a chart which shows the contract status of picks #31-50 in the 2017 NBA draft (data taken from basketball-reference.com)





Pick
Player
College
2017-18
2018-19
2019-20
Comments


31
Frank Jackson
Duke
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2017-18 & 2018-19 are fully guaranteed; 2019-20 is guaranteed for $506K.


32
Davon Reed
Miami
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2018-19 is guaranteed for $689K until Saturday, June 30, 2018.


33
Wesley Iwundu
Kansas State
$1,050,000
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is team option.


34
Frank Mason
Kansas
$1,184,385
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 unguaranteed until Tuesday, October 15, 2019


35
Ivan Rabb
California
$950,000
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is unguaranteed.


36
Jonah Bolden







37
Semi Ojeleye
SMU
$1,291,892
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2018-19 guaranteed for $900K until Sunday, July 15, 2018.


38
Jordan Bell
Oregon
$815,615
$1,378,252




39
Jawun Evans
Oklahoma St
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is team option.


40
Dwayne Bacon
Florida State
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 unguaranteed until Thursday, August 1, 2019, then fully guaranteed.


41
Tyler Dorsey
Oregon
$815,615
$1,378,242




42
Thomas Bryant
Indiana
$815,615
$1,378,242

2018-19 is unguaranteed until Thursday, July 5, 2018.


43
Isaiah Hartenstein







44
Damyean Dotson
Oregon
$1,100,000
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is unguaranteed until Monday, July 15, 2019.


45
Dillon Brooks
Oregon
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is unguaranteed.


46
Sterling Brown
SMU
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is unguaranteed.


47
Ike Anigbogu
UCLA
$950,000
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2018-19 guaranteed for $690K until Sunday, July 15, 2018.


48
Sindarius Thornwell
USC
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 unguaranteed until Thursday, June 20, 2019.


49
Vlatko Cancar







50
Mathias Lessort










*It seems that, in the past 2 drafts, the only top 50 players who didn't get at least a 2 year guaranteed contract were foreign "draft and stash" type players.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I think "the shot" is debatable. If he had "the shot" we'd be playing this weekend.

I see it a little differently. I think he and Grayson have the shot...I think they both had the nervous "tight collar" a bit this weekend. Missed a ton of open looks, in rhythm, shot way below what the law of averages would indicate against Kansas. Way below...anything even approaching normal would've meant a comfortable win over KU. A good shooting night would mean a rout.

[sagegrouse]

I think "the shot" is debatable. If he had "the shot" we'd be playing this weekend.

You didn't like the 30-footer he made to tie the game with the shot clock winding down?

[HereBeforeCoachK]

You didn't like the 30-footer he made to tie the game with the shot clock winding down?

That shot, and many others, validates a three point theory of mine - which is that the end of the shot clock is a great time to take a three. After all, you have no choice, there's no pressure that you might be taking a bad shot, or missing a pass to a teammate...you can just let it fly guilt free.

I think this is why you see a lot of late clock threes go in. (obviously this is not talking about late threes that are just heaves and not shots...which happens....my theory relates merely about getting off a normal shot late clock).

[beach rev]

Bagley declares:

https://twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD

[WHOneedsSOX]

Bagley declares:

https://twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD

Was actually surprised it took him so long to say so. Hope he gets drafted to a team that will best utilize him (as in NOT Sacramento).

Here's his Instagram post announcing the decision.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg4fE7LgQvv/?utm_source=ig_embed

[MartyClark]

Was actually surprised it took him so long to say so. Hope he gets drafted to a team that will best utilize him (as in NOT Sacramento).

Here's his Instagram post announcing the decision.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg4fE7LgQvv/?utm_source=ig_embed

Good luck to Marvin. He seems like a good kid and he had a really good year for Duke.

Having said that, I am beginning to hate this one and done stuff.

[DukeWarhead]

Shocking.

[ncexnyc]

For what it is worth, it seems that nearly* every player drafted between 31 and 50 ends up with a 2 year guaranteed contract at the NBA minimum salary. For 2018, that will be worth a total of $2,236,077 over two years.

So even if Gary and Trevon don't get drafted until the early/mid second round, they are likely to get multi-million dollar contracts. They could still end up spending the year slogging through the G-league, but they should be pretty well compensated.

Here is a chart which shows the contract status of picks #31-50 in the 2017 NBA draft (data taken from basketball-reference.com)





Pick
Player
College
2017-18
2018-19
2019-20
Comments


31
Frank Jackson
Duke
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2017-18 & 2018-19 are fully guaranteed; 2019-20 is guaranteed for $506K.


32
Davon Reed
Miami
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2018-19 is guaranteed for $689K until Saturday, June 30, 2018.


33
Wesley Iwundu
Kansas State
$1,050,000
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is team option.


34
Frank Mason
Kansas
$1,184,385
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 unguaranteed until Tuesday, October 15, 2019


35
Ivan Rabb
California
$950,000
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is unguaranteed.


36
Jonah Bolden







37
Semi Ojeleye
SMU
$1,291,892
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2018-19 guaranteed for $900K until Sunday, July 15, 2018.


38
Jordan Bell
Oregon
$815,615
$1,378,252




39
Jawun Evans
Oklahoma St
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is team option.


40
Dwayne Bacon
Florida State
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 unguaranteed until Thursday, August 1, 2019, then fully guaranteed.


41
Tyler Dorsey
Oregon
$815,615
$1,378,242




42
Thomas Bryant
Indiana
$815,615
$1,378,242

2018-19 is unguaranteed until Thursday, July 5, 2018.


43
Isaiah Hartenstein







44
Damyean Dotson
Oregon
$1,100,000
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is unguaranteed until Monday, July 15, 2019.


45
Dillon Brooks
Oregon
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is unguaranteed.


46
Sterling Brown
SMU
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 is unguaranteed.


47
Ike Anigbogu
UCLA
$950,000
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2018-19 guaranteed for $690K until Sunday, July 15, 2018.


48
Sindarius Thornwell
USC
$815,615
$1,378,242
$1,618,520
2019-20 unguaranteed until Thursday, June 20, 2019.


49
Vlatko Cancar







50
Mathias Lessort










*It seems that, in the past 2 drafts, the only top 50 players who didn't get at least a 2 year guaranteed contract were foreign "draft and stash" type players.

Thank you for putting this together for us.

I love how all season long and especially during the NCAA scandal news we had to listen to the narrative about the poor exploited players and how a free ride at a major university where they get to brand themselves via 25+ televised games wasn't fair compensation. However, some of these very same people are now claiming these very same players are getting short changed by only making $500K a year chump change.

It's called living in the real and making adult decisions, something many of these kids have never had to do as everything has been neatly laid out for them since they displayed serious basketball skills. If a kid thinks he's ready then so be it. Steve Miller said it best, "Go on take the money and run."

[fraggler]

We could go back and forth on this all day - 102 turnovers is nothing to laugh at either. As I said in a later statement, there are many shades of gray here. Danny Ferry is 8th on the all time Duke assists list with 506, but I don’t think anyone would call him a true point guard. Duval was asked to play point guard early in the season - by mid-season he was “unasked”. A true point guard is a playmaker, not just for himself, but for his teammates. Yes, I can remember some really good feeds he made off of drives into the lane, but they were the exceptions, not the rule. As the season progressed, it looked to me that defenses backed off Duval - this allowed them to pack the lane accomplishing two things: it made it more difficult for our bigs to receive the ball let alone score and it made it more difficult for our guards to drive the middle because of the congestion. Could you imagine anyone doing that against Hurley, or Jones, or Amaker, or Duhon, or Wojo? Yes, I know I’ve chosen some of our best ever point guards, but my point stands that you can’t employ that strategy against a true point guard - he will make you pay. I’ll go one step further, I think that Kansas played a 5 versus 4 defensive strategy saying “let’s stop the other four and let Duval beat us if he can”. Despite one of his better offensive performances, Duval still did not have the passing skills or shooting skills or decision making skills to make Kansas pay the ultimate price for employing that strategy. I am not blaming the loss on Duval (there were many contributing factors), but I think the presence of a true point guard would have made a difference.

Duval had 20pts and 6asts, keeping us in the game when no one else had it going. If Grayson gets a luckier bounce, or if anyone makes just one more three, we would be talking about about how great a game Duval played. Well some of us, at least. I just don't get why you are trying so hard to convince people he isn't a True Point GuardTM, especially in a thread discussing who is leaving. He is going pro and if he makes it, he will be playing point guard (true or otherwise).

[MartyClark]

Thank you for putting this together for us.

I love how all season long and especially during the NCAA scandal news we had to listen to the narrative about the poor exploited players and how a free ride at a major university where they get to brand themselves via 25+ televised games wasn't fair compensation. However, some of these very same people are now claiming these very same players are getting short changed by only making $500K a year chump change.

It's called living in the real and making adult decisions, something many of these kids have never had to do as everything has been neatly laid out for them since they displayed serious basketball skills. If a kid thinks he's ready then so be it. Steve Miller said it best, "Go on take the money and run."

Well said. I'm speaking from the perspective of a middle class guy who really strained to put 3 kids through college.

I do think that high school kids should be allowed to go directly into the NBA draft. Some will make bad decisions but I think that is their right and not our responsibility to monitor.

[drummerdevil]

Far too often this season, we have taken for granted what a legendary season this talented young man has put on for us. He has shattered records left and right, dunking more times than several actual Duke teams, and has done things that no one has ever done before. And yet, somehow, DBR and a lot of Duke fans have decided that since it was such a common occurrence to see Marvin do these things that a normal human can't do, they weren't going to pay it the respect that it deserved. Someone please tell me, how does a player dropping 32 & 21, something no one has ever done in the forty years of Coach K, not win player of the game unanimously or even close to unanimously? Now that he's declared officially and we won't get to see this again, I just want to stop and thank Marvin for having been a legend for us this year, and I hope I speak for all of us in wishing him the best of luck in the NBA.

[freshmanjs]

Far too often this season, we have taken for granted what a legendary season this talented young man has put on for us. He has shattered records left and right, dunking more times than several actual Duke teams, and has done things that no one has ever done before. And yet, somehow, DBR and a lot of Duke fans have decided that since it was such a common occurrence to see Marvin do these things that a normal human can't do, they weren't going to pay it the respect that it deserved. Someone please tell me, how does a player dropping 32 & 21, something no one has ever done in the forty years of Coach K, not win player of the game unanimously or even close to unanimously? Now that he's declared officially and we won't get to see this again, I just want to stop and thank Marvin for having been a legend for us this year, and I hope I speak for all of us in wishing him the best of luck in the NBA.

Who is it that decided not to pay Marvin the respect he deserves?

[drummerdevil]

Who is it that decided not to pay Marvin the respect he deserves?

I don't have specific names, but when you look at the Duke/Florida State MOTM thread, 1 out of every 5 voters voted against the man who had just done something no Duke player, let alone freshman, had ever done. There were lots of things like that all year, and when you look back at some old threads you can see that I'm not the only one to point out that he wasn't getting the respect he deserved all year.

[freshmanjs]

I don't have specific names, but when you look at the Duke/Florida State MOTM thread, 1 out of every 5 voters voted against the man who had just done something no Duke player, let alone freshman, had ever done. There were lots of things like that all year, and when you look back at some old threads you can see that I'm not the only one to point out that he wasn't getting the respect he deserved all year.

I think Duval was motm in that game, while I respect Marvin a ton!

[drummerdevil]

I think Duval was motm in that game, while I respect Marvin a ton!

While I respect your opinion, it’s things like this that get to me. Trevon wouldn’t have been in the conversation had Marvin not been stellar all game as we wouldn’t have won and Trevon wouldn’t have led us to that. In that game, Marvin was the foundation that allowed Trevon to shine through.

[freshmanjs]

While I respect your opinion, it’s things like this that get to me. Trevon wouldn’t have been in the conversation had Marvin not been stellar all game as we wouldn’t have won and Trevon wouldn’t have led us to that. In that game, Marvin was the foundation that allowed Trevon to shine through.

So what? There are no rules governing how we need to vote for motm polls. And voting in a way different from you absolutely does not imply disrespect for a player. That’s absurd frankly.

[drummerdevil]

So what? There are no rules governing how we need to vote for motm polls. And voting in a way different from you absolutely does not imply disrespect for a player. That’s absurd frankly.

Sorry, I wasn’t meaning to offend, merely state my opinion. Of course it’s anyone’s right to vote how they wish, but I think if, say, Jack White had come in off the bench and had 30/20 he would have won it unanimously. He was one of only two options for a 5/7 game because it was unusual. I found that we got used to Marvin being a legend. You shouldn’t get used to that.

[Gorilla]

Well Marvin just announced he is leaving. Such a great pleasure to watch him represent Duke on and off the court.

[MrPoon]

There are players at Duke who we will talk about years and years to come. Many were 4 yr players where we had a chance to fall in love over and again, Christian, Shane, JJ etc.

Bagley will be one of those players despite his one year. While missing several games and playing in an offense that while built around him but was not one that catered just to him like Trey Young or many others. How many points and rebounds does he get if Carter isn’t there? etc. His brilliance was one that will grow in our memory, not fade. (“I remember Marvin when he had 50 points and grabbed every offensive rebound in a game”:D Just like I am sure I saw JJ hit 30 3 pointers in one game, I’m sure I saw it, the box score is wrong.). To me he is a sure fire all star at the next level and handled every step with class and joy. Loved him.
Now that he’s declared can someone sell me one of those awesome Bagley face t-shirts?!

[DrChainsaw]

There are players at Duke who we will talk about years and years to come. Many were 4 yr players where we had a chance to fall in love over and again, Christian, Shane, JJ etc.

Bagley will be one of those players despite his one year. While missing several games and playing in an offense that while built around him but was not one that catered just to him like Trey Young or many others. How many points and rebounds does he get if Carter isn’t there? etc. His brilliance was one that will grow in our memory, not fade. (“I remember Marvin when he had 50 points and grabbed every offensive rebound in a game”:D Just like I am sure I saw JJ hit 30 3 pointers in one game, I’m sure I saw it, the box score is wrong.). To me he is a sure fire all star at the next level and handled every step with class and joy. Loved him.
Now that he’s declared can someone sell me one of those awesome Bagley face t-shirts?!

I think we just have to agree to disagree on this. The OADs fade quickly for me, no matter how brilliantly they played.

The ones that stick in my mind are the ones who stick around for a few years. Watching them grow as players and men means a lot to me. Grayson earned his spot in my memory.

[Furniture]

https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/979117355249881093/video/1

[ncexnyc]

https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/979117355249881093/video/1

Thank you for posting this and it's definitely work watching. Nothing beats seeing Luke Maye get posterized by MBIII.

[Gorilla]

There are players at Duke who we will talk about years and years to come. Many were 4 yr players where we had a chance to fall in love over and again, Christian, Shane, JJ etc.

Bagley will be one of those players despite his one year. While missing several games and playing in an offense that while built around him but was not one that catered just to him like Trey Young or many others. How many points and rebounds does he get if Carter isn’t there? etc. His brilliance was one that will grow in our memory, not fade. (“I remember Marvin when he had 50 points and grabbed every offensive rebound in a game”:D Just like I am sure I saw JJ hit 30 3 pointers in one game, I’m sure I saw it, the box score is wrong.). To me he is a sure fire all star at the next level and handled every step with class and joy. Loved him.
Now that he’s declared can someone sell me one of those awesome Bagley face t-shirts?!

I agree 100%. He could have came to Duke and played the Ben Simmons role but he was all in. I also want a shirt lol.

[UrinalCake]

8246

[MCFinARL]

There are players at Duke who we will talk about years and years to come. Many were 4 yr players where we had a chance to fall in love over and again, Christian, Shane, JJ etc.

Bagley will be one of those players despite his one year. While missing several games and playing in an offense that while built around him but was not one that catered just to him like Trey Young or many others. How many points and rebounds does he get if Carter isn’t there? etc. His brilliance was one that will grow in our memory, not fade. (“I remember Marvin when he had 50 points and grabbed every offensive rebound in a game”:D Just like I am sure I saw JJ hit 30 3 pointers in one game, I’m sure I saw it, the box score is wrong.). To me he is a sure fire all star at the next level and handled every step with class and joy. Loved him.
Now that he’s declared can someone sell me one of those awesome Bagley face t-shirts?!

Wait--wasn't that Patrick Davidson?

[Neals384]

Question: in the DBR story about Bagley's draft announcement, the photo caption says Carter has declared for the draft too. I can't find any announcement re. Carter, either here or on go Duke.

Sure, he will announce. But has he?

[plimnko]

Question: in the DBR story about Bagley's draft announcement, the photo caption says Carter has declared for the draft too. I can't find any announcement re. Carter, either here or on go Duke.

Sure, he will announce. But has he?

here's a list of declared and undecided as of yesterday.......carter is listed as undecided

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-draft-2018-early-entries-list-mock-big-board-projection-deandre-ayton-marvin-bagley-trae-young/wk46svyic8e012wqk883wq343

[jimsumner]

Bagley is the only Duke player to have announced for the NBA.

At this point.

[dukelifer]

Bagley is the only Duke player to have announced for the NBA.

At this point.

To be fair-Carter’s mom announced for him ;)

[richardjackson199]

here's a list of declared and undecided as of yesterday....carter is listed as undecided

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-draft-2018-early-entries-list-mock-big-board-projection-deandre-ayton-marvin-bagley-trae-young/wk46svyic8e012wqk883wq343

Maybe Carter is undecided on which agent he's signing with. Same with Duval and Trent. I'm happy for all our guys.

My predictions:
The easy part: Carter, Duval, and Trent all declare for this draft. I'd bet a pie on it, but nobody would take that bet because it would be robbery. I'd win my first pie.
Bagley will be taken in top 3.
Carter will be taken in top 7. He's a steal.
Duval and Trent will definitely both be taken in first round.
I think Grayson falls to second round, works his butt off, makes the NBA team, sticks, and has a nice career. He'll do well. I hope I'm wrong and he's taken first round, but I doubt it.

[kAzE]

Maybe Carter is undecided on which agent he's signing with. Same with Duval and Trent. I'm happy for all our guys.

My predictions:
The easy part: Carter, Duval, and Trent all declare for this draft. I'd bet a pie on it, but nobody would take that bet because it would be robbery. I'd win my first pie.
Bagley will be taken in top 3.
Carter will be taken in top 7. He's a steal.
Duval and Trent will definitely both be taken in first round.
I think Grayson falls to second round, works his butt off, makes the NBA team, sticks, and has a nice career. He'll do well. I hope I'm wrong and he's taken first round, but I doubt it.

I think Grayson is a better NBA prospect than Gary. He is older, but he's also significantly quicker, more athletic, has better handles, and is just as good of a shooter. They are both pretty mediocre defensively.

Playing with 2 big men most of the season hurt Grayson's stats. He wasn't able to go in the paint nearly as much as he's accustomed to because of the congestion caused by having 2 big men down low. When Bagley was out with his knee injury, Grayson showed how good he could be in a halfcourt offense with slightly better spacing. Spacing in the NBA is even more open, so Grayson's driving ability firmly puts him ahead of Gary in my view.

I would also be very pleasantly surprised if all 5 guys are taken in the first round. I think 1 or 2 guys will fall into the 2nd round. The combine should boost Grayson and especially Duval's draft stock.

[ndkjr70]

Someone has to tell me what I’m missing with Trent. I saw it with Frank Jackson, I really did. I saw it with Kennard.

It is impossible to me that people are talking about Gary Trent Jr as a first round pick. Literally mind boggling.

[DavidBenAkiva]

I think Grayson is a better NBA prospect than Gary. He is older, but he's also significantly quicker, more athletic, has better handles, and is just as good of a shooter. They are both pretty mediocre defensively.

Playing with 2 big men most of the season hurt Grayson's stats. He wasn't able to go in the paint nearly as much as he's accustomed to because of the congestion caused by having 2 big men down low. When Bagley was out with his knee injury, Grayson showed how good he could be in a halfcourt offense with slightly better spacing. Spacing in the NBA is even more open, so Grayson's driving ability firmly puts him ahead of Gary in my view.

I would also be very pleasantly surprised if all 5 guys are taken in the first round. I think 1 or 2 guys will fall into the 2nd round. The combine should boost Grayson and especially Duval's draft stock.

It's funny as I think having 2 bigs also hurt Gary's game. He was pretty good at attacking from the perimeter with pull-up jumpers, floaters, and other moves. He was pretty good against Kansas inside the arc. Gary's game is a lot more than what he showed this past year at Duke. I think we would see a big jump from him if he were playing in a more open offense next year.

[richardjackson199]

Someone has to tell me what I’m missing with Trent. I saw it with Frank Jackson, I really did. I saw it with Kennard.

It is impossible to me that people are talking about Gary Trent Jr as a first round pick. Literally mind boggling.

I think Trent will be a good NBA player for a while.

I'll wager one friendly pie that Trent, Duval, Carter, and Bagley are all drafted in this year's first round.

(If any of them stay another year in college, you win the bet too.)

I'm ready to taste the win column! :cool:

[Saratoga2]

I think Grayson is a better NBA prospect than Gary. He is older, but he's also significantly quicker, more athletic, has better handles, and is just as good of a shooter. They are both pretty mediocre defensively.

Playing with 2 big men most of the season hurt Grayson's stats. He wasn't able to go in the paint nearly as much as he's accustomed to because of the congestion caused by having 2 big men down low. When Bagley was out with his knee injury, Grayson showed how good he could be in a halfcourt offense with slightly better spacing. Spacing in the NBA is even more open, so Grayson's driving ability firmly puts him ahead of Gary in my view.

I would also be very pleasantly surprised if all 5 guys are taken in the first round. I think 1 or 2 guys will fall into the 2nd round. The combine should boost Grayson and especially Duval's draft stock.

Yes, Grayson is pretty athletic but is a little shorter than Gary and his decision making sometimes in less than optimum, particularly for a senior. Gary seemed to be cooler under pressure and I would think is just as good if not better than Grayson at long range. I think Gary may actually be taken ahead of Grayson if he shows well at the draft camp. I wish them both well as they gave their best to Duke and both deserve our support.

[UrinalCake]

Someone has to tell me what I’m missing with Trent. I saw it with Frank Jackson, I really did. I saw it with Kennard.

It is impossible to me that people are talking about Gary Trent Jr as a first round pick. Literally mind boggling.

I’m with you. Frank had elite athleticism and hops and a reliable three point shot, I could see why a team would draft him. Luke I wasn’t so high on, but he also had proved plenty in college and measured out better than expected. With Trent I just don’t see it. Take the Duke name off his jersey and you have basically an average ACC guard. He could absolutely make a jump by coming back, I would actually expect him to, but right now I see him as a mid second round pick at best, possibly going undrafted.

Richard Jackson, I would take that bet with you. If all four players are drafted in the first round you win, otherwise I win.

[richardjackson199]

I’m with you. Frank had elite athleticism and hops and a reliable three point shot, I could see why a team would draft him. Luke I wasn’t so high on, but he also had proved plenty in college and measured out better than expected. With Trent I just don’t see it. Take the Duke name off his jersey and you have basically an average ACC guard. He could absolutely make a jump by coming back, I would actually expect him to, but right now I see him as a mid second round pick at best, possibly going undrafted.

Richard Jackson, I would take that bet with you. If all four players are drafted in the first round you win, otherwise I win.

Shakes on it! :cool: Will make draft night fun!

My apologies Gary if I jinxed you.

[ChillinDuke]

I’m with you. Frank had elite athleticism and hops and a reliable three point shot, I could see why a team would draft him. Luke I wasn’t so high on, but he also had proved plenty in college and measured out better than expected. With Trent I just don’t see it. Take the Duke name off his jersey and you have basically an average ACC guard. He could absolutely make a jump by coming back, I would actually expect him to, but right now I see him as a mid second round pick at best, possibly going undrafted.

Richard Jackson, I would take that bet with you. If all four players are drafted in the first round you win, otherwise I win.

I generally agree with you guys. I think Trent profiles as a 3-and-D guy at the next level. Which isn't chopped liver. But I'd be surprised to see a team take him in the 1st Round, based off that.

Which, if true, means there's a chance that he returns. Although I'm in no way expecting it. I'd put the odds at 20%.

- Chillin