Zone: Fear a Goose Givens

[korshmar]

When I think of the zone that both Syracuse and now Duke plays, I think of the 1978 championship game when Goose Givens scored 41 points against the Duke zone. I just looked up an article about the game, and it said:

Givens, a 6-foot-4-inch forward who hit from all points of the perimeter, was even more effective against Duke's zone defense by working inside to the foul line, where he took passes for short jumpers.

Goos Givens? 41 points!

That’s what I fear will be done against the Duke zone before this tournament is over. I just don’t know if Syracuse has anyone to do it. On thew other hand, I believe that Gary Trent, Jr. can do the same for Duke against the Syracuse zone. He’s a catch and shoot guy.

Also, I don't know what type of zone Bill Foster played. And I'm sorry to bring up a painful memory from the pre Coach K days. But perhaps others with long memories can tell us more about that game and why Duke's zone, this time, will not be so porous.

Go Blue Devils!!!

[Truth&Justise]

No chance that happens to us again -- Kentucky is already out! Plus Givens is in his 60s now, he might not have the legs for so many jumpshots.

But in all seriousness, to assuage your fears, just remember how much the game has changed since 1978, in large part because of the three-point line. Among its many ramifications, two go to your question:

-Offenses are Designed for Three Point Shots
A good three point opportunity is more efficient than a long two point opportunity. So many offenses now are designed to maximize those opportunities. Yes, teams still know to attack the zone from the middle, but the goal is not to hit that jumper from the free throw line, the goal is to use that position as a fulcrum for getting layups or threes. So no one is looking to spend all game shooting 15 foot jumpers inside the zone.

-Players Are Less Effective From Midrange
A consequence of the above is that players don't practice that mid-range shot as much. Surprisingly few college guys can consistently hit from there during a game. Is it weird that they might even have a better percentage from three? Sure, but that's the shot they practice. Could someone get into the middle of the lane and hit 18 of 27 shots like Givens did (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/1978-03-27-duke.html)? Unlikely, but possible. But if Givens had gone 15 for 27 instead, like most college guys today would (at best), Kentucky's six-point margin evaporates.


So I hope that demonstrates two reasons why it's unlikely we'd run into that sort of performance. Granted, there are other sorts of things that could be done to overcome our zone, but a Givens-esque game is unlikely.

But that's not really the question. The question is, what sort of defense gives this team, right now, the best chance of winning? The answer, as many of our stat-heads (and the eye test) can show, is the zone defense. So let's stick with it.

[RC73]

My memory of the game is that Duke played a zone with 3 guys covering the baseline, and 2 guards out front. G-Man might have moved a bit from time to time to make it a 2-1-2. The SI article of the time said that Joe B. Hall, KY coach, told his team at halftime that the Duke zone was overstretched and could not successfully defend a shot near the FT line.

I think the current zone is much more dynamic in terms of which players are where. Sometimes it looks like an arc with 1 back, sometimes an arc with 2 back. The arc players seem to help out in the FT area, depending on where the ball is. I remember the '78 zone as much more static in terms of responsibilities.

[Ian]

It's just part of the evolution of the game, now that offenses are geared toward layups, FTs and 3s. The zone is becoming more and more effective as nobody really tries to get mid range jump shots. Last night I saw both Gonzaga and FSU break out the zone, and UK too. I think more and more defenses are going to start using the zone to combat the modern 3s and layups offense.

[Truth&Justise]

It's just part of the evolution of the game, now that offenses are geared toward layups, FTs and 3s. The zone is becoming more and more effective as nobody really tries to get mid range jump shots. Last night I saw both Gonzaga and FSU break out the zone, and UK too. I think more and more defenses are going to start using the zone to combat the modern 3s and layups offense.

Could definitely see it becoming more prevalent. If so, my guess is the NCAA would follow the NBA and institute a defensive three-seconds rule. Many effective zones would be undone if you can't park a big guy under the hoop.

[devildeac]

Could definitely see it becoming more prevalent. If so, my guess is the NCAA would follow the NBA and institute a defensive three-seconds rule. Many effective zones would be undone if you can't park a big guy under the hoop.

Shoot, "u"nc's offense would have been undone from 2005-09 if they instituted an offensive 3 seconds rule. :rolleyes:

Oh, wait, there is/was one. :mad:

[duke79]

When I think of the zone that both Syracuse and now Duke plays, I think of the 1978 championship game when Goose Givens scored 41 points against the Duke zone. I just looked up an article about the game, and it said:

Givens, a 6-foot-4-inch forward who hit from all points of the perimeter, was even more effective against Duke's zone defense by working inside to the foul line, where he took passes for short jumpers.

Goos Givens? 41 points!

That’s what I fear will be done against the Duke zone before this tournament is over. I just don’t know if Syracuse has anyone to do it. On thew other hand, I believe that Gary Trent, Jr. can do the same for Duke against the Syracuse zone. He’s a catch and shoot guy.

Also, I don't know what type of zone Bill Foster played. And I'm sorry to bring up a painful memory from the pre Coach K days. But perhaps others with long memories can tell us more about that game and why Duke's zone, this time, will not be so porous.

Go Blue Devils!!!

I still have nightmares about that game! I just remember that it seemed like Givens did miss a shot in the entire game (obviously not true!).

I'm sure members of the '78' team have nightmares too.

[Kedsy]

When I think of the zone that both Syracuse and now Duke plays, I think of the 1978 championship game when Goose Givens scored 41 points against the Duke zone. I just looked up an article about the game, and it said:

Givens, a 6-foot-4-inch forward who hit from all points of the perimeter, was even more effective against Duke's zone defense by working inside to the foul line, where he took passes for short jumpers.

Goos Givens? 41 points!

That’s what I fear will be done against the Duke zone before this tournament is over. I just don’t know if Syracuse has anyone to do it. On thew other hand, I believe that Gary Trent, Jr. can do the same for Duke against the Syracuse zone. He’s a catch and shoot guy.

Also, I don't know what type of zone Bill Foster played. And I'm sorry to bring up a painful memory from the pre Coach K days. But perhaps others with long memories can tell us more about that game and why Duke's zone, this time, will not be so porous.

Go Blue Devils!!!

I was a freshman the year after the Goose Givens game, but I saw Bill Foster's zone for two years, and it was very different from our current zone. Foster's zone was a lot more passive while Coach K's zone is pretty active. It still has an open spot in the middle (though I think it's a bit further out than the open spot in Foster's zone), but as others have said, an 18-footer isn't a very good shot in today's game.

I agree with those who think that under the current rules -- which favor dribble-penetrators -- the zone is going to get much more prevalent in the college game. Until they change the rules again, in which case clever coaches will have to find the new defense that best suits the rules.

[Sir Stealth]

It's amazing how uncomfortable most of today's players seem taking the high post jumper in the middle of the zone. Even players who seem suited to it such as Luke Maye have missed a lot from there (although Pinson and Colson did have some success). I agree with others who have said that with the 3-point line and the way that players practice shooting, that kind of shot just isn't as much a part of the game anymore.

Even if it was well-practiced, it's still a lot more difficult than it looks. A player who isn't that comfortable with the ball (and a lot of players who go to the high post are those who typically don't handle the ball as frequently) has to make a quick decision about whether to pass or shoot with a lot of defenders closing in around him from multiple directions. Often this will happen as a player receives a pass facing away from the basket and must turn around, judge whether he will be left open long enough, and shoot. Duke's bigs have looked very effective showing a collapse to defend the shot while actually falling back to stay on defenders. That way we don't give up an easier look by leaving another player, and even though the high post shot remains open, the split second of discomfort/decision has been enough to cause a miss more often than not, and to be a much better end to a defensive possession over time than the results we got in man to man.