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FerryFor50
03-12-2018, 06:34 PM
This one’s for our resident TV Teddy advocate.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22737287/ted-valentine-not-officiate-ncaa-tournament

uh_no
03-12-2018, 06:37 PM
This one’s for our resident TV Teddy advocate.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22737287/ted-valentine-not-officiate-ncaa-tournament

nice when someone other than grayson allen is taking a hit for their own "earned reputaion"

TV ted has made a killing making the show about him for many years. I have no remorse that the NCAA put him in place. Working the tourney is a privileged. I'm glad he got benched.

Ian
03-12-2018, 06:45 PM
But I could have sworn somebody told me on this board Teddy was one of the most highly respected referees in the country. Are you saying he was...wrong?

kshepinthehouse
03-12-2018, 06:47 PM
I applaud this decision. Now we can all watch the game.

gus
03-12-2018, 06:51 PM
nice when someone other than grayson allen is taking a hit for their own "earned reputaion"

TV ted has made a killing making the show about him for many years. I have no remorse that the NCAA put him in place. Working the tourney is a privileged. I'm glad he got benched.

He has? Don't refs make like $2,000 a game?

uh_no
03-12-2018, 07:00 PM
He has? Don't refs make like $2,000 a game?

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/college-basketball-refs-hustle-pay-212006385--ncaab.html

apparently 3k for ACC games...5 years ago. Average of 80 games for top guys (which TV ted undoubtedly is), and i'm sure tourney games pay more.

So we're looking at 240k a year. I'd call that a killing for reffing bball games.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-12-2018, 07:02 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/college-basketball-refs-hustle-pay-212006385--ncaab.html

apparently 3k for ACC games...5 years ago. Average of 80 games for top guys (which TV ted undoubtedly is), and i'm sure tourney games pay more.

So we're looking at 240k a year. I'd call that a killing for reffing bball games.
And that's just 5 months!

cspan37421
03-12-2018, 07:17 PM
And here I thought he was pulled because of the non-call on the Berry head-butt! [Actually it appears he didn't ref the Saturday ACC final]


"I even pulled him out of a situation where he could have gotten a technical foul."

So nice to know TV Teddy is thinking of the children - at least those in Baby Blue. Seriously, is it his job to keep players from getting technicals?

weezie
03-12-2018, 07:47 PM
"This is not right, it's just not fair," Valentine told ESPN. "It hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm being punished unjustly."

Boo hooo. Sniff. See ya!

devildeac
03-12-2018, 07:50 PM
If he didn't ref the acct final, then the ref who ignored this blatant blow to the head should be reprimanded/suspended, too:

https://twitter.com/cpark_1985?lang=en

Credit to whoever posted this in the acct thread first. I'm just re-posting the link.

MarkD83
03-12-2018, 07:54 PM
In defense of the refs and because I am a bit perturbed at unc....

All teddy did was turn his back and not listen to Berry after a call. There is nothing in the rule book saying a ref has to listen to a player. If Grayson had tried to talk to teddy about a call and teddy had turned his back, the internet would have wondered why teddy didn't call a technical on Grayson.

I am beginning to think unc has some blackmail material on the ncaa and that is why they ......(you can fill in the blank from all of the other threads).

MCFinARL
03-12-2018, 07:59 PM
In defense of the refs and because I am a bit perturbed at unc...

All teddy did was turn his back and not listen to Berry after a call. There is nothing in the rule book saying a ref has to listen to a player. If Grayson had tried to talk to teddy about a call and teddy had turned his back, the internet would have wondered why teddy didn't call a technical on Grayson.

I am beginning to think unc has some blackmail material on the ncaa and that is why they ...(you can fill in the blank from all of the other threads).

I agree Valentine's action toward Berry, while rude, doesn't seem to me to be, on its own, the most terrible crime. BUT I think it is important to note that the Berry incident is what Valentine says is the reason he is not being used in the tournament. The actual reasons may have included several factors, of which this may have been one or not. Given Valentine's propensity for making the game about the refereeing generally, he might not have been perceived as the ideal ref for an exciting tournament with a lot of audience appeal.

diablesseblu
03-12-2018, 08:35 PM
I agree Valentine's action toward Berry, while rude, doesn't seem to me to be, on its own, the most terrible crime. BUT I think it is important to note that the Berry incident is what Valentine says is the reason he is not being used in the tournament. The actual reasons may have included several factors, of which this may have been one or not. Given Valentine's propensity for making the game about the refereeing generally, he might not have been perceived as the ideal ref for an exciting tournament with a lot of audience appeal.

Whatever the reason, knowing that Teddy will not be officiating is a big plus for me. I usually spend the first few minutes of any game eyeballing the officials to determine if he's on the court. It must be a habit from my childhood when the ACC always had a few notorious officials.

If you knew they were on the crew, you could steel yourself for their calls (kind of like I do with TV Teddy).

Bluedog
03-12-2018, 09:05 PM
Whatever the reason, knowing that Teddy will not be officiating is a big plus for me. I usually spend the first few minutes of any game eyeballing the officials to determine if he's on the court. It must be a habit from my childhood when the ACC always had a few notorious officials.

If you knew they were on the crew, you could steel yourself for their calls (kind of like I do with TV Teddy).

Him and Karl Hess....Those were the two I was always on the lookout for. Luckily, no more Hess and no TV Teddy for the tournament. Although I do feel kinda bad honestly as sounds like he's taking it hard and personally. But I guess that's life.

kshepinthehouse
03-12-2018, 09:07 PM
Him and Karl Hess...Those were the two I was always on the lookout for. Luckily, no more Hess and no TV Teddy for the tournament. Although I do feel kinda bad honestly as sounds like he's taking it hard and personally. But I guess that's life.

Him taking it personally just adds to the story of his gigantic personality, he doesn’t get it that it’s not all about him.

FerryFor50
03-12-2018, 09:23 PM
In defense of the refs and because I am a bit perturbed at unc...

All teddy did was turn his back and not listen to Berry after a call. There is nothing in the rule book saying a ref has to listen to a player. If Grayson had tried to talk to teddy about a call and teddy had turned his back, the internet would have wondered why teddy didn't call a technical on Grayson.

I am beginning to think unc has some blackmail material on the ncaa and that is why they ...(you can fill in the blank from all of the other threads).

In the ACC, disrespecting the Holes is a fireable offense. He got off easy.

FerryFor50
03-12-2018, 09:24 PM
"This is not right, it's just not fair," Valentine told ESPN. "It hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm being punished unjustly."

Boo hooo. Sniff. See ya!

Not fair... like, unfair how?

Unfair like getting tagged with a flagrant 1 for a common foul?

Reilly
03-12-2018, 09:27 PM
Him and Karl Hess...Those were the two I was always on the lookout for ...

Dick Paparo would like to call you, Teddy, and Karl to the scorer's table to discuss your issue of looking at the refs; he's not going to call a T, but act self-important and make a show, so let's get together and let him be the center of attention for a few, then you can go back to worrying about who's reffing, until he feels it's time to call another conference. We're all on the same page?

FerryFor50
03-12-2018, 09:32 PM
But I could have sworn somebody told me on this board Teddy was one of the most highly respected referees in the country. Are you saying he was...wrong?

Just presenting facts. 😎

Newton_14
03-12-2018, 10:06 PM
This one’s for our resident TV Teddy advocate.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22737287/ted-valentine-not-officiate-ncaa-tournament

Well this is the best news of the week so far. Now we just need Duke to get on the role they are capable of, and for the love of God for someone, anyone to beat the cheating frauds who seemingly have the NCAA, the ACC, and Mike Eades making sure they win no matter what.

That non-call by Eades last year of Meeks out of bounds with the ball in his possession may be one of the worst blown/non calls ever in a title game. It took away Gonzaga's chance of a final possession, inbounding under their own basket, only down 1 point. If Gonzaga had been given the ball as they should have, Gonzaga may have been National Champions. Having to play the bulk of the game including the final 8 minutes without their freshman big that unc couldn't stop, didn't help matters but that's an entirely separate reason a team that should not have been in the tournament was allowed to win it.

Yes I'm still bitter.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-12-2018, 10:06 PM
In the ACC, disrespecting the Holes is a fireable offense. He got off easy.

This is the real story here.

If Teddy turns his back on Grayson Allen, Mr Valentine becomes a media-created folk hero instead.

wavedukefan70s
03-13-2018, 07:57 AM
This is the real story here.

If Teddy turns his back on Grayson Allen, Mr Valentine becomes a media-created folk hero instead.

I thought the same thing .

OldPhiKap
03-13-2018, 08:01 AM
Y’all act like the ACC Commisssioner was the Heel’s AD or something.

Spanarkel
03-13-2018, 08:07 AM
Y’all act like the ACC Commisssioner was the Heel’s AD or something.

Love how the Heels AD received 61K for unc making the NCAAT this year(per ESPN report).

Atldukie79
03-13-2018, 08:39 AM
Dick Paparo would like to call you, Teddy, and Karl to the scorer's table to discuss your issue of looking at the refs; he's not going to call a T, but act self-important and make a show, so let's get together and let him be the center of attention for a few, then you can go back to worrying about who's reffing, until he feels it's time to call another conference. We're all on the same page?

Calling Lenny Wirtz, calling Lenny Wirtz to the scorers table!

ChillinDuke
03-13-2018, 08:55 AM
In defense of the refs and because I am a bit perturbed at unc...

All teddy did was turn his back and not listen to Berry after a call. There is nothing in the rule book saying a ref has to listen to a player. If Grayson had tried to talk to teddy about a call and teddy had turned his back, the internet would have wondered why teddy didn't call a technical on Grayson.

I am beginning to think unc has some blackmail material on the ncaa and that is why they ...(you can fill in the blank from all of the other threads).

With all due respect, this is understating the event. Sure, at its core, Teddy simply turned his back.

But in reality, the context was much, much more dramatic. He turned broadly. He crossed his arms demonstrably. And he stared out into the stands from the sideline.

That's something a player would do after they dunk. For a ref to do so is not in keeping with general reffing norms.

That said, I agree with others that this may or may not have even been one of the reasons to bench Teddy. But that Berry incident was a great example of him being over the top. Most other refs would turn their back on a player, but they would do so by grabbing a ball, running down the sideline, tying their shoe, etc. They wouldn't perform the action in such a way that every onlooker knows they are intentionally performing the action.

See ya, Teddy.

- Chillin

budwom
03-13-2018, 09:14 AM
With all due respect, this is understating the event. Sure, at its core, Teddy simply turned his back.

But in reality, the context was much, much more dramatic. He turned broadly. He crossed his arms demonstrably. And he stared out into the stands from the sideline.

That's something a player would do after they dunk. For a ref to do so is not in keeping with general reffing norms.

That said, I agree with others that this may or may not have even been one of the reasons to bench Teddy. But that Berry incident was a great example of him being over the top. Most other refs would turn their back on a player, but they would do so by grabbing a ball, running down the sideline, tying their shoe, etc. They wouldn't perform the action in such a way that every onlooker knows they are intentionally performing the action.

See ya, Teddy.

- Chillin

good take. This banishment might be a good thing...if he were to ref with Berry in the game, tell me he wouldn't bend over backwards to be charitable to him..

hudlow
03-13-2018, 09:18 AM
If this was about the Berry incident...why did it take so long?

FerryFor50
03-13-2018, 09:27 AM
If this was about the Berry incident...why did it take so long?

They had to make sure he officiated the Duke - UNC ACCT game. :p

hudlow
03-13-2018, 09:34 AM
They had to make sure he officiated the Duke - UNC ACCT game. :p

Captain Obvious - I ain't. :)

devildeac
03-13-2018, 09:51 AM
Love how the Heels AD received 61K for unc making the NCAAT this year(per ESPN report).

"Revealing what seems to be North Carolina's defense in the case, Cunningham told CBS Sports, "Is this academic fraud? Yes, it is by a normal person's standards. But by the NCAA definition [it is not]."

How 'bout "u"nc standards, bubba?

Oh, wait, there are no standards/morals/ethics/honesty when it comes to the c*rolina way. :mad:

uh_no
03-13-2018, 10:14 AM
NITed

wavedukefan70s
03-13-2018, 10:44 AM
With all due respect, this is understating the event. Sure, at its core, Teddy simply turned his back.

But in reality, the context was much, much more dramatic. He turned broadly. He crossed his arms demonstrably. And he stared out into the stands from the sideline.

That's something a player would do after they dunk. For a ref to do so is not in keeping with general reffing norms.

That said, I agree with others that this may or may not have even been one of the reasons to bench Teddy. But that Berry incident was a great example of him being over the top. Most other refs would turn their back on a player, but they would do so by grabbing a ball, running down the sideline, tying their shoe, etc. They wouldn't perform the action in such a way that every onlooker knows they are intentionally performing the action.

See ya, Teddy.

- Chillin
Depending what was said.it may have been justified.i think his general showmanship should have been stopped many moons ago.
If he was punished for this one incident it's wrong.it will either lead to a unfair advantage towards UNC or their opponents. the only action I can think of is that he cannot work any UNC games from now on.that would be the right thing to do.

NashvilleDevil
03-13-2018, 10:51 AM
I have to amend my take from the Who Do You Not Want to See Thread?


Mike Eades, Jamie Luckie, and Ted Valentine.

BandAlum83
03-13-2018, 10:58 AM
This one’s for our resident TV Teddy advocate.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22737287/ted-valentine-not-officiate-ncaa-tournament

Not fair? He took care of that and apologized?

Apologies are great and all. They are the minimum expectation. It doesn't necessarily mean it absolves of all consequences.

tbyers11
03-13-2018, 11:13 AM
good take. This banishment might be a good thing...if he were to ref with Berry in the game, tell me he wouldn't bend over backwards to be charitable to him..


Depending what was said.it may have been justified.i think his general showmanship should have been stopped many moons ago.
If he was punished for this one incident it's wrong.it will either lead to a unfair advantage towards UNC or their opponents. the only action I can think of is that he cannot work any UNC games from now on.that would be the right thing to do.

Ted Valentine has worked three UNC games since the "Berry incident" in the UNC-FSU game on Jan 3rd.

1/20 UNC vs GT, UNC won 80-66
2/17 UNC @ Louisville, UNC won 93-76
3/9 UNC vs Duke ACC semi, UNC won 74-69

Removing Valentine from UNC games was definitely not done by the ACC. Seems odd that the NCAA would move towards this goal if the ACC didn't.
Who knows what the NCAA does?


As for Valentine, he can showboat at times. But, personally would take him over Mike Eades or Jamie Luckie any time.

oldnavy
03-13-2018, 11:16 AM
I have to amend my take from the Who Do You Not Want to See Thread?

My rule of thumb is that if I know a refs name, then I don't want the reffing the game.

devilseven
03-13-2018, 11:20 AM
Ted Valentine has worked three UNC games since the "Berry incident" in the UNC-FSU game on Jan 3rd.

1/20 UNC vs GT, UNC won 80-66
2/17 UNC @ Louisville, UNC won 93-76
3/9 UNC vs Duke ACC semi, UNC won 74-69

Removing Valentine from UNC games was definitely not done by the ACC. Seems odd that the NCAA would move towards this goal if the ACC didn't.
Who knows what the NCAA does?


As for Valentine, he can showboat at times. But, personally would take him over Mike Eades or Jamie Luckie any time.

Looks like Valentine has not only apologized, but made amends to UNC. I'll bet he'll be doing ACC games next year.

wavedukefan70s
03-13-2018, 02:15 PM
Looks like Valentine has not only apologized, but made amends to UNC. I'll bet he'll be doing ACC games next year.

That's the exact reason he shouldn't work anymore of their games.
He can owe acc basketball In general a apology. but not certain individuals or schools.that removes the reasonable doubt from any call he makes that's questionable during their games.
it doesn't matter the official .it's the entire circumstance and the effect of future decisions made towards unc or their opponent.

devilseven
03-13-2018, 02:56 PM
That's the exact reason he shouldn't work anymore of their games.
He can owe acc basketball In general a apology. but not certain individuals or schools.that removes the reasonable doubt from any call he makes that's questionable during their games.
it doesn't matter the official .it's the entire circumstance and the effect of future decisions made towards unc or their opponent.

I agree, but don't forget who is running the ACC. John Swofford

gus
03-13-2018, 06:48 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/college-basketball-refs-hustle-pay-212006385--ncaab.html

apparently 3k for ACC games...5 years ago. Average of 80 games for top guys (which TV ted undoubtedly is), and i'm sure tourney games pay more.

So we're looking at 240k a year. I'd call that a killing for reffing bball games.

That's gross right? Do they pay for their own airfare and accommodations? (I really don't know) They certainly have to pay their own employment taxes as they're treated as contractors. Considering the work they have to do to even get to ref games you see, that really doesn't sound like a lot to me.

And they have to put up with a lot of [stuff]. Like death threats (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/19029689/ncaa-official-john-higgins-receiving-death-threats-kentucky-wildcats-fans-following-loss-north-carolina-tar-heels)

Different sport, but I think about Anders Frisk, a soccer ref who immediately retired as a result of death threats to his family. And that was after a game he was ref'ng was called because someone in the stands threw a coin at him (injuring him enough to cause pretty significant bleeding).

Refs are human, and make mistakes like everyone else does. But for some reason people think it's perfectly okay to dehumanize and attack them. I don't get it.

Bluedog
03-13-2018, 07:56 PM
That's gross right? Do they pay for their own airfare and accommodations? (I really don't know) They certainly have to pay their own employment taxes as they're treated as contractors. Considering the work they have to do to even get to ref games you see, that really doesn't sound like a lot to me.

And they have to put up with a lot of [stuff]. Like death threats (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/19029689/ncaa-official-john-higgins-receiving-death-threats-kentucky-wildcats-fans-following-loss-north-carolina-tar-heels)

Different sport, but I think about Anders Frisk, a soccer ref who immediately retired as a result of death threats to his family. And that was after a game he was ref'ng was called because someone in the stands threw a coin at him (injuring him enough to cause pretty significant bleeding).

Refs are human, and make mistakes like everyone else does. But for some reason people think it's perfectly okay to dehumanize and attack them. I don't get it.

I highly highly doubt they don't get reimbursed for travel expenses and accommodations. That would make no sense.

kako
03-13-2018, 07:58 PM
My rule of thumb is that if I know a refs name, then I don't want the reffing the game.

Amen, brother.

cato
03-13-2018, 08:47 PM
That's gross right? Do they pay for their own airfare and accommodations? (I really don't know) They certainly have to pay their own employment taxes as they're treated as contractors. Considering the work they have to do to even get to ref games you see, that really doesn't sound like a lot to me.

And they have to put up with a lot of [stuff]. Like death threats (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/19029689/ncaa-official-john-higgins-receiving-death-threats-kentucky-wildcats-fans-following-loss-north-carolina-tar-heels)

Different sport, but I think about Anders Frisk, a soccer ref who immediately retired as a result of death threats to his family. And that was after a game he was ref'ng was called because someone in the stands threw a coin at him (injuring him enough to cause pretty significant bleeding).

Refs are human, and make mistakes like everyone else does. But for some reason people think it's perfectly okay to dehumanize and attack them. I don't get it.

The article said that they get reimbursed for travel and expenses, but the $3,000/game number was on the high end of the scale, and I believe the average number of games was closer to 50.

Critically, there would be no benefits and as you noted they would have to pay self-employment taxes.

wavedukefan70s
03-13-2018, 11:12 PM
I'd take Valentine all day over the refs in the st Bonaventure/ucla game.two big time offensive fouls missed on ucla in the final 3 minutes.

Bluedog
03-13-2018, 11:15 PM
I'd take Valentine all day over the refs in the st Bonaventure/ucla game.two big time offensive fouls missed on ucla in the final 3 minutes.

Not only did they "miss" the clear forearm pushoffs from the offensive player on UCLA, but they called a blocking foul both times!! Never seen anything like it. Looks like it won't matter though and the Bonnies will win.

Edit: ha, now they call it finally. Third time's a charm.

wavedukefan70s
03-13-2018, 11:33 PM
Yeah I saw .smh

kmspeaks
03-14-2018, 08:14 AM
Not only did they "miss" the clear forearm pushoffs from the offensive player on UCLA, but they called a blocking foul both times!! Never seen anything like it. Looks like it won't matter though and the Bonnies will win.

Edit: ha, now they call it finally. Third time's a charm.

NCAA referees are continuously evaluated and only the best get to work tournament games. Therefore if Joe Blow on DBR thinks a referee made a mistake then Joe Blow doesn't know what he's talking about because referees are not to be questioned or complained about. They never make mistakes or influence games, players just need to "adjust" or "play better" and fans need to stop whining.

Seriously though, if this is the best of the best then either the evaluation system sucks or college refs are really bad...or both :eek:

FerryFor50
03-14-2018, 09:39 AM
NCAA referees are continuously evaluated and only the best get to work tournament games. Therefore if Joe Blow on DBR thinks a referee made a mistake then Joe Blow doesn't know what he's talking about because referees are not to be questioned or complained about. They never make mistakes or influence games, players just need to "adjust" or "play better" and fans need to stop whining.

Seriously though, if this is the best of the best then either the evaluation system sucks or college refs are really bad...or both :eek:

Maybe it was a play-in game for the refs, too. :D

HereBeforeCoachK
03-14-2018, 09:44 AM
...... because referees are not to be questioned or complained about. They never make mistakes or influence games, players just need to "adjust" or "play better" and fans need to stop whining.
:

THIS ^^^ - this whole secrecy thing about how refs are evaluated.....that millions of people might watch a game, and we'll hear why the coaches did this or the players did that.....but for some reason people have bought into the notion that refs are never to answer publicly for their calls, never to explain publicly what they thought they saw.

This just fuels lack of trust, conspiracy theories, and so on. Sunlight is a great disinfectant, and I think the same would be true for officials. It would help them in the long run. And certainly it would help the game, and the tenor of comments about officiating.

gus
03-14-2018, 10:29 AM
NCAA referees are continuously evaluated and only the best get to work tournament games. Therefore if Joe Blow on DBR thinks a referee made a mistake then Joe Blow doesn't know what he's talking about because referees are not to be questioned or complained about. They never make mistakes or influence games, players just need to "adjust" or "play better" and fans need to stop whining.

Seriously though, if this is the best of the best then either the evaluation system sucks or college refs are really bad...or both :eek:

I don't think you have it right. Here's a brief rebuttal presented in list form:


Refs make mistakes and miss calls. (Boozer *was* fouled)
Fans (and announcers) tend to overestimate their own knowledge about rules ("he shuffled his feet! that's not a charge!"). So Refs actually miss calls less frequently than fans complain about.
Refs rarely exhibit bias towards one team or the other. Fans tend to exercise significant observational bias and pattern seeking.
Games are rarely decided by bad calls from refs. Certainly not to the extent that fans rend their garments over.


But mainly, I think whining about refs is kind of pathetic. If you can point to a basketball game where the players and coaches for a losing team were error-free and only lost because of a bad call, let me know. (JWill should have made that free throw, and Duke should never have been down four with 4 seconds left against that Indiana team. Duke was 10-19 from the FT line!)

HereBeforeCoachK
03-14-2018, 10:33 AM
But mainly, I think whining about refs is kind of pathetic. If you can point to a basketball game where the players and coaches for a losing team were error-free and only lost because of a bad call, let me know. )

I agree with 80% of what you said, but with due respect, what you say above is NOT the acceptable standard. Any officiating that forces one team to be closer to perfect than the other is not a well officiated game.

sagegrouse
03-14-2018, 10:41 AM
I don't think you have it right. Here's a brief rebuttal presented in list form:


Refs make mistakes and miss calls. (Boozer *was* fouled)
Fans (and announcers) tend to overestimate their own knowledge about rules ("he shuffled his feet! that's not a charge!"). So Refs actually miss calls less frequently than fans complain about.
Refs rarely exhibit bias towards one team or the other. Fans tend to exercise significant observational bias and pattern seeking.
Games are rarely decided by bad calls from refs. Certainly not to the extent that fans rend their garments over.


But mainly, I think whining about refs is kind of pathetic. If you can point to a basketball game where the players and coaches for a losing team were error-free and only lost because of a bad call, let me know. (JWill should have made that free throw, and Duke should never have been down four with 4 seconds left against that Indiana team. Duke was 10-19 from the FT line!)

Quoting our erstwhile board member, the Play Caller, himself at one time a college hoops ref: All referees make mistakes; the good referees will make a call at the end of the game, even if it affects the outcome. By implication: bad refs swallow their whistles.

FerryFor50
03-14-2018, 10:49 AM
Quoting our erstwhile board member, the Play Caller, himself at one time a college hoops ref: All referees make mistakes; the good referees will make a call at the end of the game, even if it affects the outcome. By implication: bad refs swallow their whistles.

FWIW, I follow him on Twitter and guess what he does from time to time?

Criticizes officiating.

gus
03-14-2018, 11:06 AM
FWIW, I follow him on Twitter and guess what he does from time to time?

Criticizes officiating.

Is he criticizing officiating from a position of expertise, or whining that refs suck bad and that's why his team lost?

HereBeforeCoachK
03-14-2018, 11:43 AM
Is he criticizing officiating from a position of expertise, or whining that refs suck bad and that's why his team lost?

With all due respect, I simply do not accept the premise that fan criticism always = whining, nor do I think very much of it around here rises to the level of "why we lost." The level of decorum and intelligence shown here is like, 1000X better than what you see on many message boards related to ESPN or what have you.

Apropos to this topic, there are some immutable and uncomfortable facts that we all know, but maybe don't like to contemplate.

A: There is no way for any group of officials to call a game perfectly evenly....that is to say....a game where neither team received any advantage from the officiating overall. It would be a fluke if that ever happens. All we can hope for is that whichever way the advantage swings, that it is very small and not determinative, and that it is innocently arrived at.

B: Many games are determined by a single possession. If the losing team in a single possession game had a net of say, 3 bad calls against them, then that's probably determinative, even as it was a fairly evenly officiated game. In such a situation, criticism is warranted and understandable, and I don't accept the premise that as long as a team makes any mistakes, they lose their right to be upset at the refs.

C: Human nature is a powerful thing, and referees are not immune. Every time a ref steps on the floor, there is probably one coach he prefers over the other, there are players he prefers over the others, there are fan bases, etc, that he prefers over the other. Every ref on the planet is aware that most fans think "Duke gets all the calls" - so for us to be alert to potential over compensation in that regard is reasonable. Therefore we must hope that our officials are professional enough to call as fair and accurate a game as possible. But to do so, they have to swim against the current of human nature.

The most childish responses I see to Duke games vis a vis the officiating are from the large nation of Duke haters out there, who flood every sports message board with whining about how Duke got all the calls yet again, regardless of the game. Maybe there's some of that around here in reverse, but I haven't noticed it.

kmspeaks
03-14-2018, 11:58 AM
THIS ^^^ - this whole secrecy thing about how refs are evaluated....that millions of people might watch a game, and we'll hear why the coaches did this or the players did that....but for some reason people have bought into the notion that refs are never to answer publicly for their calls, never to explain publicly what they thought they saw.

This just fuels lack of trust, conspiracy theories, and so on. Sunlight is a great disinfectant, and I think the same would be true for officials. It would help them in the long run. And certainly it would help the game, and the tenor of comments about officiating.


I don't think you have it right. Here's a brief rebuttal presented in list form:


Refs make mistakes and miss calls. (Boozer *was* fouled)
Fans (and announcers) tend to overestimate their own knowledge about rules ("he shuffled his feet! that's not a charge!"). So Refs actually miss calls less frequently than fans complain about.
Refs rarely exhibit bias towards one team or the other. Fans tend to exercise significant observational bias and pattern seeking.
Games are rarely decided by bad calls from refs. Certainly not to the extent that fans rend their garments over.


But mainly, I think whining about refs is kind of pathetic. If you can point to a basketball game where the players and coaches for a losing team were error-free and only lost because of a bad call, let me know. (JWill should have made that free throw, and Duke should never have been down four with 4 seconds left against that Indiana team. Duke was 10-19 from the FT line!)

I don't disagree with any of your list, but I think HBCK makes a good point about the secrecy surrounding officiating. Let's take last night's block calls in the UCLA-St. Bonaventure game as an example. I don't think those were called because the refs wanted UCLA to win, or St. Bonaventure to lose, or because they bet on the game, or hate one coach, or whatever other bias could exist. St. Bonaventure still won so clearly these two calls didn't decide the game. Now let's imagine a scenario where after the game the refs hold a press conference just like the players/coaches and somebody asks about those two calls. The ref either says:
A) there was a push-off by the offensive player there but before that I saw x,y,z that was a foul on the defender or
B) in real time I saw a block but watching it again that was an offensive foul and I just missed it

If it's A then as a fan I learn something about what officials are looking for and maybe I'm less upset the next time that situation comes up. My dad is a D1 baseball umpire and I'll often call him about controversial calls and ask him what he thinks. Sometimes he agrees the umpire screwed it up and sometimes he tells me something about the rules or mechanics (the way umpires are trained to move, work together, call things) that I didn't know before. How awesome would it be if we got this from the guy that actually made the call?

If it's B then I think fans would probably be a little more forgiving. We know players miss shots, we know coaches miss things, just say you made a mistake. I only know baseball/softball firsthand but I've seen umpires say coach I just missed it, I can't change it now but I know it was wrong. It diffuses a lot of anger. Additionally if we get the same guy saying B over and over again and way more than other officials then there's public accountability. Why is this guy still getting big time assignments if he's not very good? I've written in other threads about how much of a joke the evaluation system for NCAA baseball umpires is because it's so secretive. I'm not advocating a Twitter poll to choose your refs for tonight's game or anything like that but a more public evaluation system would probably help things.

FerryFor50
03-14-2018, 12:28 PM
Is he criticizing officiating from a position of expertise, or whining that refs suck bad and that's why his team lost?

A little of expertise, a little of whining about refs sucking and ruining chances for teams. Because, guess what? Sometimes that happens.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-14-2018, 01:08 PM
...
But mainly, I think whining about refs is kind of pathetic. If you can point to a basketball game where the players and coaches for a losing team were error-free and only lost because of a bad call, let me know.

God, I agree 180%

Thank you.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-14-2018, 01:29 PM
I don't disagree with any of your list, but I think HBCK makes a good point about the secrecy surrounding officiating. Let's take last night's block calls in the UCLA-St. Bonaventure game as an example. I don't think those were called because the refs wanted UCLA to win, or St. Bonaventure to lose, or because they bet on the game, or hate one coach, or whatever other bias could exist. St. Bonaventure still won so clearly these two calls didn't decide the game. Now let's imagine a scenario where after the game the refs hold a press conference just like the players/coaches and somebody asks about those two calls. The ref either says:
A) there was a push-off by the offensive player there but before that I saw x,y,z that was a foul on the defender or
B) in real time I saw a block but watching it again that was an offensive foul and I just missed it

If it's A then as a fan I learn something about what officials are looking for and maybe I'm less upset the next time that situation comes up. My dad is a D1 baseball umpire and I'll often call him about controversial calls and ask him what he thinks. Sometimes he agrees the umpire screwed it up and sometimes he tells me something about the rules or mechanics (the way umpires are trained to move, work together, call things) that I didn't know before. How awesome would it be if we got this from the guy that actually made the call?

If it's B then I think fans would probably be a little more forgiving. We know players miss shots, we know coaches miss things, just say you made a mistake. I only know baseball/softball firsthand but I've seen umpires say coach I just missed it, I can't change it now but I know it was wrong. It diffuses a lot of anger. Additionally if we get the same guy saying B over and over again and way more than other officials then there's public accountability. Why is this guy still getting big time assignments if he's not very good? I've written in other threads about how much of a joke the evaluation system for NCAA baseball umpires is because it's so secretive. I'm not advocating a Twitter poll to choose your refs for tonight's game or anything like that but a more public evaluation system would probably help things.

Amen, every word, every syllable....your hypothetical post game referee press conference is precisely my point, and you laid it out very well.

kako
03-14-2018, 03:42 PM
Just saw this on si.com. Looks like the guy has been watching Teddy for years. He imitates college refs perfectly. So funny that a baseball player is doing this - spring training isn't exactly all consuming, I guess.


https://youtu.be/3SR4yFLWE5k

weezie
03-14-2018, 04:42 PM
^^^In the hallowed tradition of "Batting Stance Guy," hilarious.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-14-2018, 04:43 PM
Just saw this on si.com. Looks like the guy has been watching Teddy for years. He imitates college refs perfectly. So funny that a baseball player is doing this - spring training isn't exactly all consuming, I guess.


https://youtu.be/3SR4yFLWE5k

Pretty funny - but seeing a baseball guy imitate a referee reminds me of one of the all time Duke got screwed jobs ever...former Atlanta Braves Bruce "Eggs" Benedict officiating the Duke Indiana game in Sweet 16 of 2002. One of these days I'm gonna find that game on Youtube and analyze it. I swear every time Benedict called Indiana for a foul, it stopped a play where Duke was about to score. Sneaky way to screw someone. It's the only time I've ever thought an official jobbed Duke on purpose. (Shavlik Randolph v UCONN is close). I may sound crazy, but....