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gofurman
03-10-2018, 12:33 AM
So X-rays were negative , correct ? He is at least ok to play ?

bludevil_33
03-10-2018, 12:36 AM
So X-rays were negative , correct ? He is at least ok to play ?

N&O confirms x-rays were negative (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/duke-now/article204295084.html). I wouldn't be surprised if he sits out the first game of the NCAAT.

-bdbd
03-10-2018, 01:08 AM
N&O confirms x-rays were negative (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/duke-now/article204295084.html). I wouldn't be surprised if he sits out the first game of the NCAAT.

Yeah, that ankle obviously hurt his game tonight. O-fer on shots and a bunch of t/o's. K was talking about the injury in his post-game and the x-rays, "which we got right away", were negative.

Let's get luckily and not start until Fri. in our first NCAAT matchup. I'd think he's ready by then. But just don't look for 30+ minutes out of him. Don't want to see any rust developing. Fingers crossed.

Saratoga2
03-10-2018, 06:28 AM
Yeah, that ankle obviously hurt his game tonight. O-fer on shots and a bunch of t/o's. K was talking about the injury in his post-game and the x-rays, "which we got right away", were negative.

Let's get luckily and not start until Fri. in our first NCAAT matchup. I'd think he's ready by then. But just don't look for 30+ minutes out of him. Don't want to see any rust developing. Fingers crossed.

He played on it that after taping, so that is a good sign. Into the ice bath afterwards to keep the swelling down and some rest. Just watch the game thread as should our other players.

Duke does need to improve the back line action on the zone. I would also say they should review how the perimiter zone players guard the opponent with the ball. We have length and athleticism there, but unless our guard is within arms reach with one hand up, a quick 3 point shot can be completed over them. Small but needed adjustment.

I wonder if they can deal with the TO issue, as it continues to hurt them and against UNC was the major factor in the loss.

After VT where Grayson enumerated all the errors he said he had made in finishing the game you would have thought he would try to avoid repeating them. He is too good and too experienced to have his decision making hurt the team.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-10-2018, 06:41 AM
I am more of a Duval fan than many here, but given how poorly our offense was running and how obviously his injury was affecting him... Why was he playing?

I have favored letting the young man get his minutes and his experience rather than sitting him on the bench, but the idea that an injured Tricky is better than a healthy sub is sort of ridiculous. You could see him limping at times.

Any thoughts or insights?

CDu
03-10-2018, 06:53 AM
I am more of a Duval fan than many here, but given how poorly our offense was running and how obviously his injury was affecting him... Why was he playing?

I have favored letting the young man get his minutes and his experience rather than sitting him on the bench, but the idea that an injured Tricky is better than a healthy sub is sort of ridiculous. You could see him limping at times.

Any thoughts or insights?

My guess is because any hope of a win relied on an effective 3/4 court press, and Duval is our best defender in that press.

Unfortunately, he had an awful night on offense, and the ball just kept finding him.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-10-2018, 07:35 AM
My guess is because any hope of a win relied on an effective 3/4 court press, and Duval is our best defender in that press.

Unfortunately, he had an awful night on offense, and the ball just kept finding him.

I agree with your theory.....and he wasn't as quick in the zone either due to the injury.

rtnorthrup
03-10-2018, 07:43 AM
Today is going to be a big day for him. Hopefully not too much swelling in the ankle.

UrinalCake
03-10-2018, 08:03 AM
I am more of a Duval fan than many here, but given how poorly our offense was running and how obviously his injury was affecting him... Why was he playing?

Alex came in for him and didnít really play any better. Heís at least a threat to shoot, but wasnít making anything happen. The only other option would be to put in Goldwire, who hasnít been seen in ages.

rocketeli
03-10-2018, 08:11 AM
I always cringe (FWIW I'm a physician) when I see Duke players sprain their ankles and come back in the game. Perhaps they have some idea that playing on the injury shows "heart" or "toughness." That is a very bad idea. You are simply making it worse, and a sprain can be a significant injury that it is very difficult to recover completely from. The training and/or medical staff needs to step up and say no. Also, from a practical standpoint, even if you don't care anything about someone's future career, or the player doesn't, it rarely producing the best results, as the player is too hobbled to play their best, especially, if like Duval, their game is all about quickness/cutting/first step.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-10-2018, 08:33 AM
Alex came in for him and didnít really play any better. Heís at least a threat to shoot, but wasnít making anything happen. The only other option would be to put in Goldwire, who hasnít been seen in ages.

I agree with that assessment, with this caveat: this was the last time Duke was going to play where a loss did not end their season. That's not a bad time to maybe take another look at Goldwire, or a longer look at Alex. Even if that backfired, and we lost by 15 instead of 5, the experience might come in handy in the next couple weeks....

tbyers11
03-10-2018, 08:43 AM
Yeah, that ankle obviously hurt his game tonight. O-fer on shots and a bunch of t/o's. K was talking about the injury in his post-game and the x-rays, "which we got right away", were negative.

Let's get luckily and not start until Fri. in our first NCAAT matchup. I'd think he's ready by then. But just don't look for 30+ minutes out of him. Don't want to see any rust developing. Fingers crossed.

Both Charlotte and Nashville, our 2 most likely destinations, are Fri/Sun pods

Rich
03-10-2018, 08:51 AM
I always cringe (FWIW I'm a physician) when I see Duke players sprain their ankles and come back in the game. Perhaps they have some idea that playing on the injury shows "heart" or "toughness." That is a very bad idea. You are simply making it worse, and a sprain can be a significant injury that it is very difficult to recover completely from. The training and/or medical staff needs to step up and say no. Also, from a practical standpoint, even if you don't care anything about someone's future career, or the player doesn't, it rarely producing the best results, as the player is too hobbled to play their best, especially, if like Duval, their game is all about quickness/cutting/first step.

I think this is a good point. And canít high ankle sprains (assuming thatís what it is) take longer to heal than broken bones? Hopefully the duke med staff and young ligaments will get him above 75% over the course of the week. And good tourney seeding and playing letís him rest more and gives him 2 weeks to recover. I firmly believe a healthy Duval, with ankles that can break down a defense and defend aggressively, is our key to going deep.

Bob Green
03-10-2018, 10:32 AM
I always cringe (FWIW I'm a physician) when I see Duke players sprain their ankles and come back in the game.

I'm relieved it is only a sprain. When I saw Duval stumble and then hop on one foot, my immediate reaction was ruptured Achilles. But I agree with your point that it is tough to play on a sprained ankle.

AZLA
03-10-2018, 11:31 AM
I am more of a Duval fan than many here, but given how poorly our offense was running and how obviously his injury was affecting him... Why was he playing?

I have favored letting the young man get his minutes and his experience rather than sitting him on the bench, but the idea that an injured Tricky is better than a healthy sub is sort of ridiculous. You could see him limping at times.

Any thoughts or insights?

Iím a fan too. Yes he is turnover prone. Makes bad passes from time-to-time, but when healthy, is the best player to take a defender off the dribble (has the best first step). I had the same thoughts as to why he was still playing as his injury limited him and would only exacerbate turnovers. But when he went out, when he was first injured, there were more turnovers without him and it looked like the offense stalled. When he came back in he was struggling, yes, but I think he was in because clearly he was the best at feeding passes to the bigs on the post. He was actually very effective when heíd position on the wings (and NOT drive). But be patient and let Bags and Carter set up in the post. He was quite effective getting them the ball, and getting the offense rolling again inside. Iím guessing his value you in this aspect outweighed bringing in a backup. Now, he did turn it over a lot and force some horrible passes trying to drive and dish ó but his ankle was tore up.

At the same time, the run at the end didnít happen without him (even when hobbled). He made some brilliant decisions, and made a great pass to Allen to hit the three on wing to get the last run going. I personally wouldnít have minded if the staff didnít just ice his ankle and put him in a matrix boot and let him heal for the NCAAs. At the same time, despite the turnovers and being limited, Duval was instrumental for that closing run and they almost pulled it off.

For everyone who thinks Allen is the better point guard ó sigh ó whether or not you think so, heís much better and more fluid if Duval is running point and then flowing it through Allen who can set up his shot or break to the basket off a pass much better then if heís on point. Heís usually able to have more space moving without the ball.

Duval is a warrior. And player Duke fans should be proud of. A great athlete too with more upside as he improves. His ankle injury was a big setback and obviously contributed to the turnovers.

I still believe this team will go deep and is 1 of 5 teams that will win it all. But Duval will need to be 100%.

Embrace the D.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-10-2018, 11:42 AM
I think this is a good point. And canít high ankle sprains (assuming thatís what it is) take longer to heal than broken bones? Hopefully the duke med staff and young ligaments will get him above 75% over the course of the week. And good tourney seeding and playing letís him rest more and gives him 2 weeks to recover. I firmly believe a healthy Duval, with ankles that can break down a defense and defend aggressively, is our key to going deep.

I too think Duval is the key, a healthy Duval makes the press work and it facilitates both MB3 and GA having big nights. As for the sprain, I haven't heard, but it looked more like a low ankle turn...but there two moments on that play where it might have happened, and I'm not sure which it was.

Furniture
03-10-2018, 11:52 AM
I can’t be sure but didn’t Duke get behind by a significant margin while Duval was getting treatment? I haven’t checked but he may have the beat +/- minutes of the team last night.
Embrace the D.

subzero02
03-10-2018, 12:00 PM
Duval last night was reminiscent of Kennard as a freshman. If he put the ball on the floor in the half court, it seemed like there was a 50% chance it would be going back the other way shortly thereafter.

jv001
03-10-2018, 12:03 PM
I can’t be sure but didn’t Duke get behind by a significant margin while Duval was getting treatment? I haven’t checked but he may have the beat +/- minutes of the team last night.
Embrace the D.

You are correct Duke was only down one point, I believe when Trevon went out. As for +/- you can see my post on Neals thread for +/-. The starting lineup was a +15 for the game. Trevon was on all 3 lineups that were at least even. I think Bagley and Carter were tied for the lead in +/- with Trevon 3rd. GoDuke!

I was wrong, Duval was one of the few that was a positive last night. I think Bagley was -4. I'll stop going off my memory now. GoDuke!

jv001
03-10-2018, 12:11 PM
Duval last night was reminiscent of Kennard as a freshman. If he put the ball on the floor in the half court, it seemed like there was a 50% chance it would be going back the other way shortly thereafter.

But I believe most of his turnovers were after the injury. Without his speed and hops, he's only about half the player he should be. GoDuke!

brlftz
03-10-2018, 01:14 PM
I always cringe (FWIW I'm a physician) when I see Duke players sprain their ankles and come back in the game. Perhaps they have some idea that playing on the injury shows "heart" or "toughness." That is a very bad idea. You are simply making it worse, and a sprain can be a significant injury that it is very difficult to recover completely from. The training and/or medical staff needs to step up and say no. Also, from a practical standpoint, even if you don't care anything about someone's future career, or the player doesn't, it rarely producing the best results, as the player is too hobbled to play their best, especially, if like Duval, their game is all about quickness/cutting/first step.

Thank you! This puzzles me but as a non physician I just assumed they must know what theyíre doing. Iíve had two severe ankle sprains and I was on crutches each time for weeks. I canít believe how quickly we rush guys back out there.

UrinalCake
03-10-2018, 04:53 PM
I worry about that too, and itís part of why Iím not quite as upset about losing the game as perhaps I should be. Had we won, Duval would have undoubtedly played today and maybe an injury that would require 3-4 days to heal would turn into a 7-10 day recovery. And we donít have 7-10 days.

#notadoctor

jv001
03-10-2018, 07:06 PM
I worry about that too, and itís part of why Iím not quite as upset about losing the game as perhaps I should be. Had we won, Duval would have undoubtedly played today and maybe an injury that would require 3-4 days to heal would turn into a 7-10 day recovery. And we donít have 7-10 days.

#notadoctor

What you said ^ and I will be wide awake in church tomorrow morning and the Cheat fans will either sleep through the message or will lay out(daylight savings time change). Just like a cheat fan. :cool: GoDuke!

AtlDuke72
03-10-2018, 10:05 PM
I am more of a Duval fan than many here, but given how poorly our offense was running and how obviously his injury was affecting him... Why was he playing?

I have favored letting the young man get his minutes and his experience rather than sitting him on the bench, but the idea that an injured Tricky is better than a healthy sub is sort of ridiculous. You could see him limping at times.

Any thoughts or insights?

Did anyone think to tell Coach K during the postgame interview that it was ridiculous for him to be playing Duval ?

Furniture
03-10-2018, 10:32 PM
Did anyone think to tell Coach K during the postgame interview that it was ridiculous for him to be playing Duval ?

I am convinced that some people donít read whole threads before posting...

plimnko
03-10-2018, 10:50 PM
Thank you! This puzzles me but as a non physician I just assumed they must know what theyíre doing. Iíve had two severe ankle sprains and I was on crutches each time for weeks. I canít believe how quickly we rush guys back out there.

in my younger days, i've twisted my ankle playing basketball. it hurt like hell!!!! after the initial pain subsided, i "walked it off" and continued playing. luckily, i sucked at basketball and the affects of the sprain was barely noticeable.

killerleft
03-11-2018, 12:22 AM
in my younger days, i've twisted my ankle playing basketball. it hurt like hell!!!! after the initial pain subsided, i "walked it off" and continued playing. luckily, i sucked at basketball and the affects of the sprain was barely noticeable.

That's me when I was younger. Much younger. A sprain can hurt like the devil for about five minutes, and then you just lace up tighter and play some more. Sometimes you're not so lucky. Trevon had one of those sprains that wasn't quite as serious as it first seemed. Or so the experts on the scene deemed.

Are you turned-ankle pansies the same folks who thought that Grayson's butt pooch was a felonious assault? Jesus, can't I trust you people?

wavedukefan70s
03-11-2018, 08:47 AM
That's me when I was younger. Much younger. A sprain can hurt like the devil for about five minutes, and then you just lace up tighter and play some more. Sometimes you're not so lucky. Trevon had one of those sprains that wasn't quite as serious as it first seemed. Or so the experts on the scene deemed.

Are you turned-ankle pansies the same folks who thought that Grayson's butt pooch was a felonious assault? Jesus, can't I trust you people?

No man.jr was playing o line got his ankle landed on.came up limping played the rest of and three more quaters.the next morning he couldn't walk.so we went to the doc.he was booted for a week.
you can't help but wonder if they didn't aggravate it worse by continuing to play
on it.with Td (and jr)the ultimate goal is to get them up and playing at a high level. quickly as possible.

coldriver10
03-11-2018, 08:54 AM
I think this is a good point. And canít high ankle sprains (assuming thatís what it is) take longer to heal than broken bones? Hopefully the duke med staff and young ligaments will get him above 75% over the course of the week. And good tourney seeding and playing letís him rest more and gives him 2 weeks to recover. I firmly believe a healthy Duval, with ankles that can break down a defense and defend aggressively, is our key to going deep.
Yep. I was taught in residency that actual "high ankle sprains" take months to heal completely. More likely this was just your run-of-the-mill standard sprain...still painful and potentially debilitating in the short term but not nearly as severe.

Dukebasketball2020
03-11-2018, 09:57 AM
I know this is highly unlikely but he should most def come back for another year, latest mock draft has him going early in the second round. If he comes back and works on his FT shooting and his shot over the summer I think he could be a top 15 pick next year. You could have him as your primary ball handler and have Tre Jones as your 2 Guard. Last time we wont a championship this worked well with Quinn and Tyus.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-11-2018, 10:01 AM
I know this is highly unlikely but he should most def come back for another year, latest mock draft has him going early in the second round. If he comes back and works on his FT shooting and his shot over the summer I think he could be a top 15 pick next year. You could have him as your primary ball handler and have Tre Jones as your 2 Guard. Last time we wont a championship this worked well with Quinn and Tyus.

This is true....but a couple things worry me about that comparison working out next season: One is that Cook was a very capable 2 guard, and very willing to give Tyus the point. Not sure we can say Duval would fit either of those categories. And second, is young Jones as good as big bros? If he is, or even close, he'll play point next season regardless.

As for Duval's shooting, I could see a dramatic improvement in a year on that - he already has shown the ability to hit the big 3, even as he has really struggled from 3 over all. So it's inside him, if he can bring it out.

That said, I"m hoping for Duval of the second half of the Cheats game in Durham....with that, I like our chances against anyone.

billy
03-11-2018, 10:03 AM
Yep. I was taught in residency that actual "high ankle sprains" take months to heal completely. More likely this was just your run-of-the-mill standard sprain...still painful and potentially debilitating in the short term but not nearly as severe.

I completely agree. Conventional wisdom is to allow for in game return to play assuming the athlete clears functional testing with the trainer. I am not aware of any team that does not do this. While the rest of us have to rely on speculation and the visual of the injury, the trainer (and the team doctor if present) get to evaluate the player real time.

There is literally no data to support or deny the notion that in game return to play after an ankle sprain increases the severity of the injury or time to heal from the injury. Such clinical research would require immediate evaluation and likely a MRI scan to determine the exact extent of the injury, prior to return to play. Obviously, this would be practically impossible during a game. It would take a huge number of "patients" to control for all of the variables involved to actually do a study on this, such as grade of the sprain (I,II,III), whether it occurs on just one side of the ankle or both (i.e. Medial, lateral, or both), is it a low versus a high sprain, pain tolerance of the athlete, etc.

All that being said, as a sports medicine physician myself, I have zero issue with Duval returning to play after being evaluated by Duke's trainer. I should also note that without the go ahead from the trainer, the Duke coaches would never put a player back in the game.

richardjackson199
03-11-2018, 12:25 PM
I completely agree. Conventional wisdom is to allow for in game return to play assuming the athlete clears functional testing with the trainer. I am not aware of any team that does not do this. While the rest of us have to rely on speculation and the visual of the injury, the trainer (and the team doctor if present) get to evaluate the player real time.

There is literally no data to support or deny the notion that in game return to play after an ankle sprain increases the severity of the injury or time to heal from the injury. Such clinical research would require immediate evaluation and likely a MRI scan to determine the exact extent of the injury, prior to return to play. Obviously, this would be practically impossible during a game. It would take a huge number of "patients" to control for all of the variables involved to actually do a study on this, such as grade of the sprain (I,II,III), whether it occurs on just one side of the ankle or both (i.e. Medial, lateral, or both), is it a low versus a high sprain, pain tolerance of the athlete, etc.

All that being said, as a sports medicine physician myself, I have zero issue with Duval returning to play after being evaluated by Duke's trainer. I should also note that without the go ahead from the trainer, the Duke coaches would never put a player back in the game.

I (and probably many of us) put Duke's chances in this tourney as correlated with how Duval plays.

If we get the Duval from 2nd half Cheat game in Cameron version - getting superhuman steals in zone press, penetrating at will, dunking over/through dudes, scoring everything near the rim, going rim to rim in 3 seconds, draining many of his open 3's, and dishing sick assists; we will beat anyone.

Duval is the key to how far this Duke team goes.

Of course matchups matter a ton. But if Duke is hitting on all cylinders, we can beat anybody in this tourney.

Billy I know you haven't evaluated Duval, and thus can't guess when he'd be back to 100%. But your educated speculation (based on what we saw Fri. night vs Cheats) far exceeds my uneducated no clue. If Duval had a painful, but standard ankle sprain where he was cleared to return to game, but clearly wasn't 100% or nearly the same player, when could we expect 100% Duval to be back?

2nd weekend of tourney if we get that far? Because as a 2 seed, we're definitely going to need him by then if we get that far.

Thanks as always!

Furniture
03-11-2018, 01:26 PM
I (and probably many of us) put Duke's chances in this tourney as correlated with how Duval plays.
If we get the Duval from 2nd half Cheat game in Cameron version - getting superhuman steals in zone press, penetrating at will, dunking over/through dudes, scoring everything near the rim, going rim to rim in 3 seconds, draining many of his open 3's, and dishing sick assists; we will beat anyone.
Duval is the key to how far this Duke team goes.

Many have said this and indeed K even said it in his presser.

ĎWe will be really good if he is good and he has been goodí

He went onto say that he didnít expect Tre to come back after the injury and it definitely impacted him when he came back on.
Many fans have a certain disdain for Duval but K and the coaches know that Duke needs him even when he is slightly hampered by injury.

billy
03-11-2018, 02:17 PM
If Duval had a painful, but standard ankle sprain where he was cleared to return to game, but clearly wasn't 100% or nearly the same player, when could we expect 100% Duval to be back?

2nd weekend of tourney if we get that far? Because as a 2 seed, we're definitely going to need him by then if we get that far.

Purely speculative, of course, but I'd say second weekend for 100% is most likely. Maybe 80-90% 1st weekend? Hopefully I'm wrong and he's 100% by this Thursday or Friday. You never know with 19 year-olds, ice baths, taping, and a lot of training room treatments between now and then.

richardjackson199
03-11-2018, 05:11 PM
Purely speculative, of course, but I'd say second weekend for 100% is most likely. Maybe 80-90% 1st weekend? Hopefully I'm wrong and he's 100% by this Thursday or Friday. You never know with 19 year-olds, ice baths, taping, and a lot of training room treatments between now and then.

Thanks! I think this would all be great news if true. That should be enough to get it done for this group.

Thank goodness X-rays negative.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-11-2018, 07:22 PM
Many have said this and indeed K even said it in his presser.

ĎWe will be really good if he is good and he has been goodí

He went onto say that he didnít expect Tre to come back after the injury and it definitely impacted him when he came back on.
Many fans have a certain disdain for Duval but K and the coaches know that Duke needs him even when he is slightly hampered by injury.

Yep, I liked hearing that, and I liked him saying the "shoulda gone to it earlier" - talking about extending the zone and trapping. Always love it when my ideas and K's ideas intersect.

wallyman
03-11-2018, 07:35 PM
Committee didnít do us/Trevon a favor with a Thursday game. Hopefully, heís ready to go. But if heís hobbled, Iíd be for holding him out of the first game ó or at least not starting him and keeping him in reserve, if needed. His strength is that raw athleticism. Not like a shooter who can pick his spots. Heal, fast, young man.

Furniture
03-11-2018, 10:13 PM
He WILL be ok and he WILL start...

Steven43
03-12-2018, 12:16 AM
I still believe this team will go deep and is 1 of 5 teams that will win it all. But Duval will need to be 100%.

100%? Virtually impossible. Ankle injuries, even minor ones, do not fully heal in five days. He might be at 75% come Thursday. Hopefully that's good enough.

wavedukefan70s
03-12-2018, 08:38 AM
100%? Virtually impossible. Ankle injuries, even minor ones, do not fully heal in five days. He might be at 75% come Thursday. Hopefully that's good enough.

I was thinking something simular .if he can sit the 1st game.then maybe game 2.
next week would hopefully be close to 90 or 100%.

Wander
03-12-2018, 08:56 AM
Disagree with the main thought posted so far here... I want Duval to play in the first game if he's medically cleared to do so. He's obviously never played in an NCAA tournament game, and IMO is our highest variance player. I want him to just get experience in the tournament environment as early as possible in preparation for the harder games.

UrinalCake
03-12-2018, 09:44 AM
If we get the Duval from 2nd half Cheat game in Cameron version - getting superhuman steals in zone press, penetrating at will, dunking over/through dudes, scoring everything near the rim, going rim to rim in 3 seconds, draining many of his open 3's, and dishing sick assists; we will beat anyone.

Unfortunately that stretch of play is looking more like an anomaly than a new standard for him. Six TOís against ND (he did have 11 assists). He hit one three against UNC in Cameron but his shot is still broken and isnít something we want to rely on. I would love for him to have turned a corner and immediately start playing better but Iím not optimistic, especially with this injury compounding things. We have won many games this season without Duval playing well, and I think we can continue to do so. Honestly I think he should come off the bench and try to provide a spark especially in the second half, but his turnovers are just killers. We are well past the ďlet him make mistakes, it will benefit us down the roadĒ part of our season.

Furniture
03-22-2018, 08:15 PM
http://amp.newsobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/luke-decock/article206367244.html?__twitter_impression=true

Nice article about Duvals Journey......

- Even Duval's father told the Duke coaching staff that his son needed discipline and guidance.

-When Duval retweeted a clip of his high-flying dunk at North Carolina from inside a losing locker room (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/duke-now/article204296989.html), that was the catalyst for a change, with Duke putting the ball in Allen's hands and putting Duval on the bench.

-ďSometimes it takes failure in order to really get a guy's attention,Ē Capel said. ďIt takes going to the bench, which we did. Having to watch that. Some tough love.