MBB: Duke 69, Cheating Pond Scum(ACCT Semis) Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here. Remember, no venting or bashing of Duke players or coaches.

[YmoBeThere]

Two steps forward, 1 step back...

[WHOneedsSOX]

Waited too long to make a run. Disappointing since that was probably Duke's 'D' game. Not a good game at all. Now we have to hear about Allen being dirty again.

[Bluedog]

I'm glad we showed fight at the end. Hard to win games when your opponent takes 18 more shots than you.

[Coballs]

Wow. That was at bad as it could possibly get on the big stage.

[CDu]

Put your post-game thoughts here. Remember, no venting or bashing of Duke players or coaches.

Well, bye bye 1 seed. Hopefully we get a lucky break in the 2 seed we get. Probably will be seeded below UNC now.

Very disappointing. Very disappointing.

Defense solid. Offense awful.

[ipatent]

Give UNC credit, they outplayed us the whole game.

[eddiehaskell]

Grayson was aggressive which is good, but he wanted to be the hero on offense. Gotta give Trent or someone else a look at the end.

[Troublemaker]

UNC had 71 field goal attempts to our 53 field goal attempts. Story of the game. 18 turnovers by our anemic offense.

We can't be so inside-oriented if all it does is lead to turnovers.

[ice-9]

Turnovers doomed us.

We're overweight on trying to initiate the offense from inside and UNC adjusted for that after having played us twice. They packed it in which made the interior pass difficult and clogged up passing lanes. Not to mention all those turnovers.

We should run more plays to get the open 3 instead of trying to get the ball inside. Even if we miss, our bigs have a chance to get the offensive rebound. If we make it, they'll be forced to guard the perimeter more and it opens up driving lanes and room for our bigs to get the next interior pass and make plays.

In the UNC game at Cameron, we shot 3-13 for 3s in the first half and 6-12 in the second half. That really changed everything.

We were getting more perimeter shots toward the end of this game (and making them) and went on a mini-run, but it was too little too late. We need to establish outside shooting earlier.

I'm not saying we stop going for inside baskets, just more that there's an optimal balance and we are trying too hard to go inside at the expense of outside. We need better balance, and made 3s will open up the game a lot so let's have some plays to free up shooters.

Oh well. UNC played a great game and amazing defense. Let's tip our hats and hope for a good seed and bracket placement.

The silver lining is we get more time to rest, which means Carter and Duval can heal.

[fuse]

Three things I think I think:

1. Why, Grayson, why
2. I hate losing to a team unaffiliated with a legitimate university
3. This edition of Duke basketball confuses me like few others have.

Glad to see the team woke up and decided to fight.
The team didn’t seem to want to be playing at all for the first 10-15 minutes of the first half.

[Troublemaker]

Well, bye bye 1 seed. Hopefully we get a lucky break in the 2 seed we get. Probably will be seeded below UNC now.

Very disappointing. Very disappointing.

Defense solid. Offense awful.

Interestingly, the Heels are more likely to become 2-East now.

Obviously I'd still rather have won.

[Bob Green]

A couple of keys to the game:

1. 42% (22-53) on FGs - we shot poorly

2. Carolina successfully attacked the middle of our zone

[cruxer]

Grayson was aggressive which is good, but he wanted to be the hero on offense. Gotta give Trent or someone else a look at the end.

Yeah that last shot could not have been drawn up. It was awful.

[CDu]

UNC had 71 field goal attempts to our 53 field goal attempts. Story of the game. 18 turnovers by our anemic offense.

We can't be so inside-oriented if all it does is lead to turnovers.

That stat is a bit misleading as we shot 10 more FTs. But turnovers and offensive rebounds were the story for sure.

[DaleDuke7]

‪Rebounding and turnovers. We can still win when we don’t shoot well. But rebounding and turnover are what determine if we win games or not.‬

[Furniture]

Give UNC credit, they outplayed us the whole game.

Nope. Can’t do that right at this moment.

[Chard]

18 turnovers. UNCheat took 18 more shots than Duke. Terrible play run at the end. Ugh.

[Duke79UNLV77]

We are 0-6 now in our last 6 games decided by 5 or fewer points. I think Va is 5-1. We’re great at comebacks, but have issues with free throws or execution to close out games.

Duval injury was a significant factor. Not able to attack as well on offense or at the top of the defense.

[Ian]

At this point, we are who we are, a team with a lot of talent but a back court that makes bad decisions and turns the ball over a ton. We can play defense now which we couldn't earlier in the year. But guards win championships, our guard play is not championship calibre.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

18 turnovers. UNCheat took 18 more shots than Duke. Terrible play run at the end. Ugh.

Last two set plays were disasters.....

[Bluedog]

Well, bye bye 1 seed. Hopefully we get a lucky break in the 2 seed we get. Probably will be seeded below UNC now.

Very disappointing. Very disappointing.

Defense solid. Offense awful.

Not happy with the loss (obviously), but being behind UNC on 2 line not necessarily the worst if they're in East with Nova and we're MW with Kansas. Of course, need to worry about the games before that more.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

Blue-rose colored glasses didn’t seem to affect the outcome I guess. There wasn’t a single ounce of heart in that game from anyone on our team, not even during the comeback. Bagley did his “face” that he does when you think he’s about to get serious, but it amounted to nothing. We need a sincere change of energy for this team for anything special to happen in the coming weeks. Maybe some practice on offensive box-outs, too.

[CDu]

Interestingly, the Heels are more likely to become 2-East now.

Obviously I'd still rather have won.

Unless they win tomorrow, in which case they could conceivably sneak to the 1 line.

[Oriole Way]

I'll cheer like hell for this team in the tournament, but I'll be surprised by a deep run.

Turnovers will be the death of us. Looking forward to Tre Jones next year.

[scottdude8]

As I said towards the end of the game, there’s something to be said about the fact that we played bad basketball for 35 minutes and STILL had a chance to beat one of the best teams in the country. This team is never out of a game.

For all the doom and gloom people out there, remember that the script was basically flipped last year, and UNC won the tourney. And if last year is any indication, and if the committee remains consistent, we really should still be seeded ahead of UNC.

There are positives to take and things to learn. A week to practice and improve. This feeling sucks but this team can still write the last chapter.

[eddiehaskell]

UNC had 71 field goal attempts to our 53 field goal attempts. Story of the game. 18 turnovers by our anemic offense.

We can't be so inside-oriented if all it does is lead to turnovers.UNC had so many shot attempts because they killed the offensive glass toward the end. Around the 3 minute mark they got up 3 shots in a row.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

That game was a battle. These are two good teams.

I thought the difference in this one was UNC's active/intense defense and their passing/unselfishness to create good looks...and doing better finishing the shots than they have recently....and a solid rebounding effort.

[sbroc012]

Interestingly, the Heels are more likely to become 2-East now.

Obviously I'd still rather have won.

I'm thinking 2 seed in the Midwest paired up with Kansas as the 1 seed. Not ideal. Might not be a bad thing but I don't think our first round will be in Charlotte.

[TheDevilMadeMeDoIt]

Maybe our freshmen need to know what a loss feels like in a tournament. Even Roy pointed out before the game that the Cheats lost in the ACC tournament but won the Championship. We have to come ready to play 40 damn minutes. If we can learn to do that I like our chances. This is posted after a whole bottle of wine, but as a 68 year old alum I deserve it!

[Ian]

A couple of keys to the game:

1. 42% (22-53) on FGs - we shot poorly

2. Carolina successfully attacked the middle of our zone

Carolina had an offensive efficiency of 101, they shot 39% overall and 29% from 3. We lost this game on the defensive boards and the turnovers on offensive. They didn't do anythign to our zone.

[anonj]

This team isn’t going anywhere if they can’t stop turning the ball over. It’s pretty brutal to watch how careless they are with it. They played poorly and still almost won but this team has some serious flaws.

Next game...

[cruxer]

Duval injury was a significant factor. Not able to attack as well on offense or at the top of the defense.

I'm clinging to this. He had some bad turnovers but then in the comeback he was great. So I don't know what to think. Either way I guess he gets some rest now.

[weezie]

Who gets the post game presser? Pleeeeeeeease

[Kjeffrey]

Waited too long to make a run. Disappointing since that was probably Duke's 'D' game. Not a good game at all. Now we have to hear about Allen being dirty again.

I want to support him because he seems like such a good kid. But I just don't understand why he does things like that. It was intentional and he has to know the refs are going to cut him zero slack.

[WiJoe]

starting point guard stats:

0-6 fg 0-3 3fg, 1 or 2 dr 3 reb 7 a 2 pf 5 to 2 st 30 min 0 points.

I have NO PROBLEM with Grayson taking the final shot. None. teams he has been on have won one national title. None of the other guys have any.

[WakeDevil]

Pomeroy has us ranked as the top defense. Roy outcoached K.

As I said two weeks ago, the third round is the ceiling for this crowd.

[nmduke2001]

Hopefully this next week of practice is a good one and leads to a six game win streak.

I hate to give anyone at “u”nc credit, but Pinson really does play his butt off.

[cruxer]

At this point, we are who we are, a team with a lot of talent but a back court that makes bad decisions and turns the ball over a ton. We can play defense now which we couldn't earlier in the year. But guards win championships, our guard play is not championship calibre.

This is true, but it seems the backcourt mostly turns it over trying to force the ball into the frontcourt.

[The Gordog]

Put your post-game thoughts here. Remember, no venting or bashing of Duke players or coaches.

We just looked uninspired from the get-go.

I love our guys, but it seems like they took their cue from Grayson who seemed nervous. In spite of all that we had a chance to tie, but what the H E double hockey sticks was that last play? Was that really what K drew up? One pass and try to shoot over somebody much taller than you? Reminds me of 1999 when Trajan was told to take the last shot because he was the Sr., but he was never a guy who could consistently create his own shot.

9F, 9F, 9F

Go Duke!

[ipatent]

A couple of keys to the game:

1. 42% (22-53) on FGs - we shot poorly

2. Carolina successfully attacked the middle of our zone

Give them credit, their defense had a lot to do with that. Holding UNC to 74 points isn't bad.

[Chard]

I don't understand why the press wasn't used much, much earlier.

[CDu]

That game was a battle. These are two good teams.

I thought the difference in this one was UNC's active/intense defense and their passing/unselfishness to create good looks...and doing better finishing the shots than they have recently...and a solid rebounding effort.

No offense, but we don’t care about your thoughts on how well UNC played right now. Time and place, know your community.

Congrats to your Heels. They earned this win. Now go celebrate it with your UNC friends.

[cruxer]

starting point guard stats:

0-6 fg 0-3 3fg, 1 or 2 dr 3 reb 7 a 2 pf 5 to 2 st 30 min 0 points.

I have NO PROBLEM with Grayson taking the final shot. None. teams he has been on have won one national title. None of the other guys have any.

That was a bad shot if Steph Curry took it. Regardless of experience, you gotta run some offense.

[kako]

5 thoughts:

1. How did Duke even have a chance to tie??? I like how Duke always fights. But hard to believe that Allen's shot to tie was the play K drew up. Maybe someone missed a screen.

2. Trent carried us when it counted. His little tussle with Berry over that ball showed a bit of fire.

3. Epitaph on Duke's tombstone from the loss: Turnovers. Then in small print - Only outrebounded UNC by 2?

4. The zone still held Carolina under 40% shooting, but it sure looked weak on the back line sometimes. Again, they needed more boards.

5. I didn't want to lose to UNC. But the silver lining with not winning the ACC tourney is that we won't get a #1 seed. Why is that good, you ask? Because we don't get shipped out West. We will likely stay a #2 in the East. I'm fine playing Nova if it comes to it.

and one more:

6. Allen needs to be smarter. Argue all you want whether the butt-foul was a foul or not, but he's got a rep. He cannot do stuff like that. And now we will hear about it for days...

[ncexnyc]

Nine turnovers combined from our two main ball handlers. That just won't cut it.

The defense was solid again, but we lost due to turnovers and some poor offensive play.

Without steady backcourt play we'll be making an early exit from the big dance. There just isn't a kind way of saying it, but we need some consistent play from the PG position.

[jipops]

Thank goodness this season series is over. All 3 games have been dreadful to watch in terms of quality. It's about as messy as college ball gets.

Neither team is very good right now. The cheats have their strength with experience but not much to blow the doors off. Duke is just a mess with youth and no one to run the offense.

[eddiehaskell]

Duval probably shouldnt have been out there. There was a fast break play toward the end where most guards would attempt a layup but he just dribbled under the basket and threw it away. He probably couldn’t jump well.

[Wildling]

Not the way I wanted to see Grayson go out in the ACC tourney. UNC just wanted it more. They made the winning plays when it was needed. It would have been nice to see more of a sense of urgency throughout the game instead of the last 3 minutes of the game.

Not feeling so good about getting out of the first weekend as I was yesterday. The ups and downs of watching these freshman is too much for me sometimes.

[CDu]

starting point guard stats:

0-6 fg 0-3 3fg, 1 or 2 dr 3 reb 7 a 2 pf 5 to 2 st 30 min 0 points.

I have NO PROBLEM with Grayson taking the final shot. None. teams he has been on have won one national title. None of the other guys have any.

I have no problem with him taking the last shot. I do have a problem with the last shot that he took. He is a senior. You have to get a better look than that.

[DangerDevil]

As bad as Grayson's look to tie it at the end was, at least we got a shot off before time expired unlike Xavier at the end of OT.

[mkirsh]

Duke looked slow tonight, likely because of Duval’s and Carter’s injuries. As a result defensive rotations were late, we didn’t run down any loose ball rebounds, and Duval could not get through the defense like last week.

When Duke was down 13 I was surprised the coaches didn’t mix up the defense - full court press, trap, even go mtm for a possession or two just to break their rhythm. Late in the game they pressed and trapped, but probably should have gone to that earlier.

Similar to the VA Tech game, Grayson’s late game decision making could use improvement.

Hopefully the team can use the week to get healthy and find their edge.

[Bob Green]

I thought the difference in this one was UNC's active/intense defense and their passing/unselfishness to create good looks...and doing better finishing the shots than they have recently...and a solid rebounding effort.

Pretty accurate assessment.

[Billy Dat]

Carolina is very good and also played very well.

We did not play well, it was one of those “not our night” deals, lots of misses inside, Carolina gets an assist sitting on the ground, missed open 3s yhat would have kept it closer, Duval’s ankle, etc.

Don’t over react to an ugly loss in a rivalry conference tournament game. A 2 seed is good, we are tough. I am mad because we lost to the Holes and we don’t have a game to watch tomorrow, and the next loss is the last one.

I thought we played hard, UNC just beat us in all facets.

[weezie]

I don't understand why the press wasn't used much, much earlier.

I dunno either. Might have been looking ahead to the plodding hoos and saving energy

[Kjeffrey]

A couple of keys to the game:

1. 42% (22-53) on FGs - we shot poorly

2. Carolina successfully attacked the middle of our zone

I still can't figure out why Duke didn't make adjustments to the middle of that zone. It almost seemed like the coaching staff and players were saying "we are going to stick with our game plan, win or lose."

[Hancock 4 Duke]

After giving Duval criticism, someone asked where I am during his good games. Well, during his good games, I’m saying he’s a top 10 draft pick and certainly one of Duke’s greatest all time PG’s, of course ;)

[Ian]

6. Allen needs to be smarter. Argue all you want whether the butt-foul was a foul or not, but he's got a rep. He cannot do stuff like that. And now we will hear about it for days...

He's a senior, his decision making has always been questionable. He is who he is, he's not going to become a better decision maker by next week.

[CoachJ10]

A.) Terrible shooting from Duke. Not only on open 3s, but on “and one’s” by the rim. We had 1/2 dozen chances at 3 point plays that we just have to make.

B.) The Duval injury had meaningful ramifications for our offense. He was just not confident driving and jumping off it...so he was limited in the pick and roll.

C.) The fact that UNC doesnt even pretend to take the ball out of bounds gives their fast break a very unfair advantage.

Now for the 2 bigger takeaways.

Jay Bilas just flat out embarrasses himself for good tonight. On that Grayson play, any other player, any other team...Jay is harping for 10 minutes how bad a call it is. Instead...he mumbles and stammers like a fool. Really sad performance by Jay.

The ACC refs are just atrocious. Eades and Teddy are terrible at their jobs. And they are shameless at their gamesmanship. For the vocal minority of the DBRers who stick their head in the sand about the “effects” that refs have on games...if this didnt make you change your mind, I dont know what will.

[heyman25]

Turnovers doomed us.

We're overweight on trying to initiate the offense from inside and UNC adjusted for that after having played us twice. They packed it in which made the interior pass difficult and clogged up passing lanes. Not to mention all those turnovers.

We should run more plays to get the open 3 instead of trying to get the ball inside. Even if we miss, our bigs have a chance to get the offensive rebound. If we make it, they'll be forced to guard the perimeter more and it opens up driving lanes and room for our bigs to get the next interior pass and make plays.

In the UNC game at Cameron, we shot 3-13 for 3s in the first half and 6-12 in the second half. That really changed everything.

We were getting more perimeter shots toward the end of this game (and making them) and went on a mini-run, but it was too little too late. We need to establish outside shooting earlier.

I'm not saying we stop going for inside baskets, just more that there's an optimal balance and we are trying too hard to go inside at the expense of outside. We need better balance, and made 3s will open up the game a lot so let's have some plays to free up shooters.

Oh well. UNC played a great game and amazing defense. Let's tip our hats and hope for a good seed and bracket placement.

The silver lining is we get more time to rest, which means Carter and Duval can heal.
We did not play worth a damn. 18 turnovers. Allen made too many bad plays on offense. Duval despite the turned ankle was showing his bad habits the majority of his possessions. Defensive rebounding sucked. Very disappointed why they were so awful. I guess the freshmen were not ready tonight. No bench points. Bagley can not carry this team. UVA will likely be the favorite because they are a cohesive team. Hope Coach K can make some magic. After last night I thought we were on a roll. Duke never adjusted to the UNC defense.

[Troublemaker]

I'm thinking 2 seed in the Midwest paired up with Kansas as the 1 seed. Not ideal. Might not be a bad thing but I don't think our first round will be in Charlotte.

Yeah, no Charlotte isn't too big a deal, imo. The only concern was if we were IN Charlotte WITH UNC.


Who gets the post game presser? Pleeeeeeeease

if you have access to ESPN.com streaming, it's here: http://www.espn.com/watch/player?bucketId=2&id=3311571

UNC is on first because they won and have a game tomorrow.

[bludevil_33]

You can bet a lot of teams will be burning up copies of the tape of this game to learn how to beat our zone. Lots of work to do, zero margin of error left.

[kako]

http://www.espn.com/watch/player?bucketId=14&id=3311571

Post game press conference. Live right now, Carolina. The bile is in my mouth as I type.

[CDu]

You can bet a lot of teams will be burning up copies of the tape of this game to learn how to beat our zone. Lots of work to do, zero margin of error left.

Honestly, very few teams can play the way UNC does. And worth noting that they STILL scored less than a point per possession. We lost this game on offense.

[pamtar]

I wouldn’t be surprised if we lose in the round of 64. I also wouldn’t be surprised if we win the whole thing. Probably gonna get shafted by the committee but oh well. In hindsight Notre Dame was really bad.

[cruxer]

He's a senior, his decision making has always been questionable. He is who he is, he's not going to become a better decision maker by next week.

I thankfully didn't have to watch ESPN. Corey Alexander had it right. The butt foul was an illegal screen and a foul, but hardly flagrant. Grayson earned the flagrant with his reputation. They called it flagrant because they missed it in live action, because (everybody repeat after me) college officials are terrible.

[Wander]

Grayson's last shot was pretty cringe-worthy, but his life would be so much easier if we had a good PG who could also shoot at least decently.

Theo Pinson totally destroyed our zone. Props to him.

I still think we're mostly fine. We have the best collection of individual players in the country, they just don't mesh together super great position-wise with 3 of the top 5 guys all being centers.

[drummerdevil]

We played a bad game. We do that sometimes. Grayson had pressure and he took a bad shot. Sure, it hurts. But if the players were to see this, would this be helpful? Stay positive, guys! We have proven we can beat anyone this season, and we could still go all the way to Sanantoniapolis. Remember, you still love our team, so act like it! Stay positive and remember this: we aren’t some lowlight program like Pitt was this year. We don’t cheat to buy players like Kentucky. Our players go to class and do well, unlike UNCheat. What are we? We are Duke Basketball, and don’t ever forget it. Just keep cheering louder, and miracles may happen.

[eddiehaskell]

Grayson not only had the bad shot but the charge on one of the prior plays. And why is Bagley trying to drive from the 3 pt line (charge)? There’s just no order to the offense. Wouldn’t have been in that game if not for a lucky rebound by Duval and quick pass out for a 3.

[Saratoga2]

Several things we needed to do well tonight to win the game.

1. Keep the turnovers down: Generally we didn't do that well and our guard play, with the exception of GT were responsible for many of them.

2. Shoot well from the perimeter: I don't know the numbers but the percentage was low. UNC did guard the perimeter well but even on open 3's we looked tight.

3. Do well on defensive rebounding: Didn't do that either as UNC had a bundle of offensive rebounds, seemingly they were quicker to the ball all night.

4. Put up at least some defense in the interior of the zone: Pretty weak in that regard with too many 2 on 1 opportunities for UNC. Need our second big to react and keep out the second offensive player.

5. Finish the game well: No to that as well. Two charges and a poor shot attempt.

Despite all the flatness of our team and guys not valuing the ball, we were there with a chance to tie in the final minute, but like the VT game, too many errors. Grayson seems to get emotionally involved and his decision making can be affected.
To bad we lost the chance for a 1 seed and also for bragging rights. Frankly, we didn't play well enough as a team to deserve it. We still are a solid tournament team but some of our flaws were exposed tonight.

[jv001]

As others have said, Duval's injury was key. Matter of fact, I think it was the worse thing that happened tonight. Trevon's game is based on speed and after he turned his ankle he lost a of that speed. I hate it for the kid, because he looked like he had turned the corner and was on his way to guiding the team. I can't understand how our offense can look so good and then look so bad. I believe the way we began the game forcing the ball to Marvin and Wendell caused many of our turnovers. At the end of the game we began to use the picknroll and it got Gary some good looks. We need to get our offense fixed in a hurry or we are in trouble. We can't expect our front court players to carry the team by themselves. One other thing, Javin has taken a step back. He suddenly looks lost out there. GoDuke!

[FerryFor50]

Duval definitely didn't have his same explosiveness. That hurt us on offense.

Rebounding and turnovers were the biggest issues. Grab 3-4 of those boards, they likely win.

Offensively, they were missing some shots that they normally hit. But you could tell that a gimpy Duval and Carter was impacting the game.

Defense still looked good. Yes, UNC attacked the zone effectively, but that's pretty much expected. The zone is designed to give up the shots UNC took. And even though it *felt* like UNC destroyed us on offense, they only shot 39%. Again, corral some of those boards, you take away some of UNC's points. But some of those boards were long and just out of reach of the bigs. Just some bad bounces there.

I could barely believe Duke had a chance to tie it at the end. But it figures that we'd make a boneheaded play to ice it. Allen had to know better. He wasn't going to get a call there, even if he got hit. I wish they'd have gotten a decent shot there.

On the bright side, and extra day for Carter and Duval to heal up. Likely a 2 seed, regardless. Hopefully UVA takes care of business tomorrow.

[cakerace]

When we tie this season’s series with the heels up at two wins apiece, I hope it isn’t in a regional final...

[kAzE]

Turnovers and rebounding on defense.

If we rebounded on defense in the last 4 minutes, we would have won the game. Missed opportunity to take the #1 seed.

[FerryFor50]

Honestly, very few teams can play the way UNC does. And worth noting that they STILL scored less than a point per possession. We lost this game on offense.

And it's not like it takes a PhD to know how to beat a 2-3 zone. UNC just has the personnel to make it work, and they STILL shot only 39% and were under a point per possession. Duke also blocked 7 shots. Totally agree it wasn't defense that cost them the game, but I do wish they'd have been a bit more active in the passing lanes.

[barjwr]

I would anticipate us staying the 2 in the east with Villanova while "u"nc ends up with KU. The NCAA loves those stories like Ol' Roy against his former school...

[KandG]

Thought the difference in the first two games came down to Pinson and Duval respectively (even though other players might have had flashier stat lines), and whoever made a bigger impact tonight would probably see their team win. Once Duval hurt his ankle, it took a *lot* of air out of the team and we pretty much fought uphill the entire game as a result.

Trevon wasn't very good for most of the night, but it was very, very game of him to play on that ankle. Pretty clear how hobbled he was...his ability to stunt and recover in the zone and deflect passes was severely limited, and every time he looked like he could go by his man he just didn't look right. There was one play where he clearly had a layup and he tried to pass it back out (badly). Compare the way he turned the ball over tonight vs the kick out passes with so much zip that he executed against Notre Dame (and the last UNC game), and it was like watching two different players.

Even though Duval (and Carter) being subpar hurt us a lot, looked like UNC just had more energy in general and all their players moved better with and without the ball. Wasn't until very late in the game when we started pressing and the bigs at the bottom of the zone started moving more aggressively on defense that we actually started to make an impact. The bottom of our zone in general was just way too soft for most of the game, but a lot of credit has to go to Pinson and Maye for moving the ball quickly and forcing us to react.

Not a good loss, but as long as the injuries to Duval and Carter don't linger into the tournament, I think K will sharpen up the defense and we can still beat anyone in the tournament. But this game made it clear: Duval has to be the best version of himself. Without his ability to penetrate and create meaningful opportunities for himself and his teammates (and keep the turnovers to a minimum), we're still really good but very beatable.

(As far as Grayson, he got a flagrant because of who he was. Silly foul, but 100% routine foul call for any other player on the court. I'm more annoyed with the decisions on the last two plays...would rather have seen a three taken on the play that ended up a charge, and a pass to Trent on the attempted duck-under three that got only glass)

[weezie]

if you have access to ESPN.com streaming, it's here: http://www.espn.com/watch/player?bucketId=2&id=3311571

Thank you Trouble. Interesting that Joel Berry stepped up to speak well of Grayson. I am impressed.

[gofurman]

Give them credit, their defense had a lot to do with that. Holding UNC to 74 points isn't bad.

Defense was ok. UNc coulda scored 80. They took air out of ball

[rsvman]

Duval probably shouldnt have been out there. There was a fast break play toward the end where most guards would attempt a layup but he just dribbled under the basket and threw it away. He probably couldn’t jump well.

The first pass should've gone to Grayson on the right wing for a wide open transition three. No idea why Trent chose to pass it to Duval on that play.
That stood out for me as one of the worst decisions of the night. Trent carried us for a large stretch of the second half, though, so I forgive him.

[CDu]

If we rebounded on defense in the last 4 minutes, we would have won the game. Missed opportunity to take the #1 seed.

Or if we don’t turn it over 18 times. Or if we shoot it better than 26% from 3. We lost this game on offense. The defensive rebounding didn’t help, but they still scored less than a point per possession.

[ChillinDuke]

That game was a battle. These are two good teams.

I thought the difference in this one was UNC's active/intense defense and their passing/unselfishness to create good looks...and doing better finishing the shots than they have recently...and a solid rebounding effort.

I agree with Wheat. Both teams are very good.

I think Ole Roy is a blubbering buffoon. But his team is good.

We are too though. All in all, some bounces went their way tonight. Figuratively and really.

We're still good. We have a shot in the Tourney.

- Chillin

[bludevil_33]

There was one play where he clearly had a layup and he tried to pass it back out (badly).

I mean, yeah, but Duval does this a lot. On two good ankles.

[Chard]

When we tie this season’s series with the heels up at two wins apiece, I hope it isn’t in a regional final...

They won't seed that way. It would have to be in the FF. I would probably have an anxiety attack the entire week leading up to that.

[eddiehaskell]

How did UNC have more energy playing their 3rd game?

[Phoenix22]

We played terribly and still somehow had a chance at the end? How?

It was painful watching Duval hobble around out there. He obviously was not close to himself and shouldn't have been playing. I hope he didn't do any damage. Why was he out there? Carter obviously wasn't himself either. Not painful like Duval, but still not himself.

I hope we can get healthy in a week.

And yes I too miss having seniors and juniors. I love the laundry, but miss watching the kids develop. Love you Grayson, but those where two bonehead plays at the end.

If only we had one of the Jones brothers we could make a run...maybe with a healthy Duval.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I think having a healthy Duval and Carter would have made this a much different outcome.

Having said that, as much as I hate losing to the CHeats, I’m not all that upset because, in many ways, this game reminds me of the ACCT semifinal loss to ND in 2015.

We get everyone healthy for next week and a deep run is still possible.

[tbyers11]

I want to support him because he seems like such a good kid. But I just don't understand why he does things like that. It was intentional and he has to know the refs are going to cut him zero slack.

No it was not intentional. He got knocked off balance by Johnson.

[CDu]

Defense was ok. UNc coulda scored 80. They took air out of ball

We held a team with a 122 offensive rating to below a point per possession. Defense was more than just ok.

[hallcity]

Duval definitely didn't have his same explosiveness. That hurt us on offense.

Rebounding and turnovers were the biggest issues. Grab 3-4 of those boards, they likely win.

Offensively, they were missing some shots that they normally hit. But you could tell that a gimpy Duval and Carter was impacting the game.

Defense still looked good. Yes, UNC attacked the zone effectively, but that's pretty much expected. The zone is designed to give up the shots UNC took. And even though it *felt* like UNC destroyed us on offense, they only shot 39%. Again, corral some of those boards, you take away some of UNC's points. But some of those boards were long and just out of reach of the bigs. Just some bad bounces there.

I could barely believe Duke had a chance to tie it at the end. But it figures that we'd make a boneheaded play to ice it. Allen had to know better. He wasn't going to get a call there, even if he got hit. I wish they'd have gotten a decent shot there.

On the bright side, and extra day for Carter and Duval to heal up. Likely a 2 seed, regardless. Hopefully UVA takes care of business tomorrow.

People forget that Carter wasn't at full speed either. That's two injuries.

[kshepinthehouse]

Duval probably shouldnt have been out there. There was a fast break play toward the end where most guards would attempt a layup but he just dribbled under the basket and threw it away. He probably couldn’t jump well.

I don’t know why Trent passed it to him on this sequence. Allen was wide open for a transition 3.

[Bluedog]

In the post game, a reporter asked about "Jason Allen's" flagrant foul and I gotta say Berry (and his teammates) handled it with the utmost class. Saying that he told Grayson after that that they're going to get on him for any little thing. And that they're good friends and he shouldn't worry about it. Now I feel dirty for saying something nice about UNC..

[jipops]

Honestly, very few teams can play the way UNC does. And worth noting that they STILL scored less than a point per possession. We lost this game on offense.

Exactly, not to go all Okulaja, but it's not like the cheats played something anywhere near a pristine game. Sure they racked up assists, helps that both primary facilitators are seniors who are also natural facilitators. But a team truly 'good' would have destroyed this inept Duke team tonight. Duke has largely been struggling on offense for over a month now. As has been shown already it doesn't take much of an effort to accomplish that.

[FerryFor50]

No it was not intentional. He got knocked off balance by Johnson.

He likely wasn't trying to hurt Brooks, but it was more like a moving screen than a dirty play. Definitely not a flagrant.

[CDu]

No it was not intentional. He got knocked off balance by Johnson.

It was intentional. Come on. He didn’t even make contact with Johnson. He knew it too, you could see his face on the sideline after. Shouldn’t have been called a flagrant, but he did do it on purpose.

[Kjeffrey]

As others have said, Duval's injury was key. Matter of fact, I think it was the worse thing that happened tonight. Trevon's game is based on speed and after he turned his ankle he lost a of that speed. I hate it for the kid, because he looked like he had turned the corner and was on his way to guiding the team. I can't understand how our offense can look so good and then look so bad. I believe the way we began the game forcing the ball to Marvin and Wendell caused many of our turnovers. At the end of the game we began to use the picknroll and it got Gary some good looks. We need to get our offense fixed in a hurry or we are in trouble. We can't expect our front court players to carry the team by themselves. One other thing, Javin has taken a step back. He suddenly looks lost out there. GoDuke!

It seems like Duke still has not figured out a way to have both an inside game and an outside game. At times they pass the ball inside and the bigs (one more than the others) will force a shot while being double teamed or turn it over. Or guards force a pass inside and turn the ball over. This team struggles to run an offense where interior play and outside shooting can complement each other. I miss the days of pass the ball inside, take the double team and pass back out to the open shooter. Or drive the lane, get double teamed and pass to the open big. This team may do that at times but not consistently and it IMO it hurts the offense.

[tbyers11]

Honestly, very few teams can play the way UNC does. And worth noting that they STILL scored less than a point per possession. We lost this game on offense.

Yeah, Pinson and Maye are probably better equipped to beat a zone from the FT line than just about anyone. Especially just 6 days off the previous game. Zone is not perfect but it is solid. Turning the ball over excessively on offense and consistently bogging down the offense to try and feed the ball inside when it isn't there are the problems.

[Ian]

People forget that Carter wasn't at full speed either. That's two injuries.

Which is why a loss here and get a chance to rest up is not the worst thing in the world. I don't care what anybody says, the ACCT is almost completely meaningless. It's not that different from an NIT trophy.

[CoachJ10]

It was intentional. Come on. He didn’t even make contact with Johnson. He knew it too, you could see his face on the sideline after. Shouldn’t have been called a flagrant, but he did do it on purpose.

Its what UVA does on almost every one of their offensive sets. It was a terrible call. Any other player, any other team, no foul is called if they go to the monitor.

[DangerDevil]

In the post game, a reporter asked about "Jason Allen's" flagrant foul and I gotta say Berry (and his teammates) handled it with the utmost class. Saying that he told Grayson after that that they're going to get on him for any little thing. And that they're good friends and he shouldn't worry about it. Now I feel dirty for saying something nice about UNC..

It makes me throw up a little in my mouth but if Joel Berry, Luke Maye, Theo Pinson, or Cam Johnson wore a uniform that was a darker shade of blue, I would have no problem cheering for them!

[jimsumner]

I like the part where some posters are mourning an early NCAA-exit that hasn't actually happened yet.

BTW, anybody else remember how that 2015 Duke team did in the ACC Tournament?

A week to get healthy should help. So would some bench production.

But a fair number of recent NCAA champions from the ACC did not win the ACC Tournament. Including two pretty recent ones.

Deep cleansing breather. Repeat.

[weezie]

Ok, here comes K to the presser

[Rudy]

Kerlina has had good defensive intensity two games in a row. Odd to see them pressure every player on the ball and Duke play this loose zone.

Our low wing defensive players are way too often out of position, particularly on the weak side. They’re wary of weak side shooters and thereby leave the low post open for feeds or rebounds. Maddening

Also, having established over the season they can score going inside they’re drawing double teams and aren’t looking to pass out to shooters. The four post players who played tonight had 1 assist among them.

[ksab68]

Headline story on espn.com is the Grayson Allen foul. Horrible

[CDu]

It seems like Duke still has not figured out a way to have both an inside game and an outside game. At times they pass the ball inside and the bigs (one more than the others) will force a shot while being double teamed or turn it over. Or guards force a pass inside and turn the ball over. This team struggles to run an offense where interior play and outside shooting can complement each other. I miss the days of pass the ball inside, take the double team and pass back out to the open shooter. Or drive the lane, get double teamed and pass to the open big. This team may do that at times but not consistently and it IMO it hurts the offense.

The reason for that is that we don’t get consistently good guard play. Duval is still learning to play, and Allen isn’t really a PG and isn’t always a great decisionmaker with the ball.

UNC just crowded the lane, and we didn’t do a good job of finding the open men consistently enough, and instead tried too hard to thread the needle.

[FerryFor50]

Which is why a loss here and get a chance to rest up is not the worst thing in the world. I don't care what anybody says, the ACCT is almost completely meaningless. It's not that different from an NIT trophy.

ACCT might be meaningless, but an extra win or two over UNC and UVA could have meant better seeding.

But yes, getting healthy would be nice.

[DangerDevil]

Which is why a loss here and get a chance to rest up is not the worst thing in the world. I don't care what anybody says, the ACCT is almost completely meaningless. It's not that different from an NIT trophy.

Another ACC Championship and another banner in Cameron's rafters is far from worthless, we aren't talking about a NIT 3rd place banner.

Having another day of rest between now and either Thursday or Friday is meaningless.

It would have been huge for this team to have won tonight and beat UVA tomorrow night!

[kako]

I don't care what anybody says, the ACCT is almost completely meaningless. It's not that different from an NIT trophy.

That's your opinion. Not mine. You get two chances each season to claim a championship. Would I rather have the NCAA than the ACC? Yes, of course. But I still want the ACC.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Or if we don’t turn it over 18 times. Or if we shoot it better than 26% from 3. We lost this game on offense. The defensive rebounding didn’t help, but they still scored less than a point per possession.

Yep, Duval’s injury is what really hurt our offense tonight.

Our defense played well enough to win, holding the CHeats to under 40% shooting and out-rebounding them 40-39, we had 8 steals and 7 blocks(!).

Unfortunately, it was just one of those nights. Stuff happens. Next play.

[CDu]

Its what UVA does on almost every one of their offensive sets. It was a terrible call. Any other player, any other team, no foul is called if they go to the monitor.

I agree completely. Just saying it absolutely WAS intentional. I would have had no problem if they had called a live ball foul there. But the flagrant was silly.

That being said, that call wasn’t why we lost.

[jipops]

I like the part where some posters are mourning an early NCAA-exit that hasn't actually happened yet.

BTW, anybody else remember how that 2015 Duke team did in the ACC Tournament?

A week to get healthy should help. So would some bench production.

But a fair number of recent NCAA champions from the ACC did not win the ACC Tournament. Including two pretty recent ones.

Deep cleansing breather. Repeat.

I hear you and I'm not 100% betting on yet another early exit. But with the 2015 counter argument that comes up a lot it should also be recognized for the anomaly that it was.

Also, that team was a #1 seed. Big, big difference than being a 2 or lower seed for Duke.

[Saratoga2]

Not the way I wanted to see Grayson go out in the ACC tourney. UNC just wanted it more. They made the winning plays when it was needed. It would have been nice to see more of a sense of urgency throughout the game instead of the last 3 minutes of the game.

Not feeling so good about getting out of the first weekend as I was yesterday. The ups and downs of watching these freshman is too much for me sometimes.

Yes, but our senior made quite a few dumb plays as well and GT played the most mature game for duke and Wendell wasn't far behind.

[weezie]

I thankfully didn't have to watch ESPN. Corey Alexander had it right. The butt foul was an illegal screen and a foul, but hardly flagrant. Grayson earned the flagrant with his reputation. They called it flagrant because they missed it in live action, because (everybody repeat after me) college officials are terrible.

There ya go, Corey was adamant about it too.

[VA_BDevil]

I would have preferred seeing Duval on the bench in the 2nd half. He had trouble just getting up and down the court with his injured ankle, much less running an offense and playing defense. Giving AOC, Javin, and Jack more court time with Grayson at point would have been worth a try.

[eddiehaskell]

Which is why a loss here and get a chance to rest up is not the worst thing in the world. I don't care what anybody says, the ACCT is almost completely meaningless. It's not that different from an NIT trophy.Ehh, that sorta means the entire season is meaningless unless you win it all. I’ll gladly take as many ACC reg season/tourney titles as Duke can win.

[cruxer]

Its what UVA does on almost every one of their offensive sets. It was a terrible call. Any other player, any other team, no foul is called if they go to the monitor.

It was clearly a foul. It just wasn't flagrant. They aren't allowed to call a common foul from a review, so you're probably right on that point. GA gets no benefit of the doubt.

[Kjeffrey]

The reason for that is that we don’t get consistently good guard play. Duval is still learning to play, and Allen isn’t really a PG and isn’t always a great decisionmaker with the ball.

UNC just crowded the lane, and we didn’t do a good job of finding the open men consistently enough, and instead tried too hard to thread the needle.

And also maybe because Duke doesn't have as many great outside shooters as they have had in recent years.

[Ian]

It was intentional. Come on. He didn’t even make contact with Johnson. He knew it too, you could see his face on the sideline after. Shouldn’t have been called a flagrant, but he did do it on purpose.

Imagine it was Grayson who stepped on a Cheater player and turned his ankle, it would have been called a flagrant two and he would have been tossed.

[Coballs]

We were terrible all around. I think after last week’s second half this game was taken for granted.

[Wander]

We held a team with a 122 offensive rating to below a point per possession. Defense was more than just ok.

I partly agree, but the big advantage UNC got with those offensive rebounds at the end was more time to stall, not extra points that show up in the PPP stats.

[uh_no]

UNC is a good team and roy had a good gameplan. They match up well with us and were prepared for the zone.

fortunately most teams from here on out won't have.

next play time. we know who we are. heal up boys.

[bludevil_33]

But a fair number of recent NCAA champions from the ACC did not win the ACC Tournament. Including two pretty recent ones.

Deep cleansing breather. Repeat.

I do understand this sentiment, but it's important to compare apples to apples.

Duke was coming off a 12-game winning streak in 2015 when it ran into an absolutely hot Notre Dame team in the ACCT. It was a hiccup. That team was a clear 1 seed.

This year's team is a wobbling 2 seed. Playing somewhat inconsistently over their past 5 games. Tonight was close to a train wreck.

Let's not pretend there's zero nail biting going on about what the NCAAT is going to look like for Duke.

[gofurman]

Duval probably shouldnt have been out there. There was a fast break play toward the end where most guards would attempt a layup but he just dribbled under the basket and threw it away. He probably couldn’t jump well.

This. On this play Bilas said ,why didn't he (Duval) take a layup? Because he is hurt you idiot ! He couldn't jump

Duval was clearly hampered. Not good. This is why act tourney stinks. Little to gain and lots to lose - move up one seed maybe vs an injury. ROI isn't there - especially if refs are letting everyone hack

[Kjeffrey]

Yes, but our senior made quite a few dumb plays as well and GT played the most mature game for duke and Wendell wasn't far behind.

I loved it when Trent exchanged words with Joel Berry. He stayed cool but wasn't backing down. I really like his game and hope he comes back although it is unlikely.

[weezie]

I kinda think K tamped down the yelling at the team a bit during the game. He saw the fear/anxiety/growing. He was trying to coax them into believing.

[azzefkram]

As crappy as Duke played they still had a shot to tie the game. Boy do I have losing to Carolina. As many said in the pregame thread, Duke needed to limit turnovers and control the glass. Mission not accomplished. The offensive rebounds Duke gave up in the last four minutes were costly. The turnovers seemed about an equal mix of self-inflicted and stout D by Carolina.

[WiJoe]

I like the part where some posters are mourning an early NCAA-exit that hasn't actually happened yet.

BTW, anybody else remember how that 2015 Duke team did in the ACC Tournament?

A week to get healthy should help. So would some bench production.

But a fair number of recent NCAA champions from the ACC did not win the ACC Tournament. Including two pretty recent ones.

Deep cleansing breather. Repeat.

That team had Tyus Jones. This team doesn't.

[uh_no]

As crappy as Duke played they still had a shot to tie the game. Boy do I have losing to Carolina. As many said in the pregame thread, Duke needed to limit turnovers and control the glass. Mission not accomplished. The offensive rebounds Duke gave up in the last four minutes were costly. The turnovers seemed about an equal mix of self-inflicted and stout D by Carolina.

unfortunately, a lot of that was UNC absolutely failing at stall ball. Before then, they were largely better than us on both ends.

[AFL]

It's just amazing to me how a team with 5 potential NBA first round draft picks loses twice to a team with none. I have absolutely no idea what to expect from this team in the NCAA Tournament. I wouldn't be surprised to see them win it all, or lose in their second game. I'll be cheering for them all the way, but my expectations for them aren't very high at this point. Defense is no longer a problem; stagnant offense is the problem.

[bludevil_33]

That team had Tyus Jones. This team doesn't.

It's spelled STONES.

[Saratoga2]

He's a senior, his decision making has always been questionable. He is who he is, he's not going to become a better decision maker by next week.

Those are my sentiments as well. He is an emotional player and he has done great things in his Duke career, but he should not be a primary ball handler and play maker. Duval unfortunately is not ready for that plus he was hampered with a sore ankle so we really had no one to do that for us, hence 18 TO's. I think most Duke fans recognize that shortcoming and clearly GT can't be that guy and AOC isn't ready either. We are who we are, tons of talent but lacking the guard play that matters in tournaments.

[FerryFor50]

unfortunately, a lot of that was UNC absolutely failing at stall ball. Before then, they were largely better than us on both ends.

Duke also started to press, which helped throw off UNC's rhythm.

[Furniture]

No it was not intentional. He got knocked off balance by Johnson.

I love Grayson butt it was clearly intentional. The refs hit rock bottom for me with the flagrant. Anyway the tail will tell a story that Duke hit their extremity only at the end of the game. Disappointing butt we tip our hats to the ACC tournament and head to the NCAA.

[84Duke]

There are only three titles Duke could have won this year (Unless we’re going to hang a Phil Knight banner). They didn’t win the first, and they didn’t win the second. They have a shot at the third - but our turnover problem has contributed to every loss this year. Too many, and at very bad times. How are you going to change this team into a team that values possessions 33 games into the season? I don’t think they can change.

[bludevil_33]

It's just amazing to me how a team with 5 potential NBA first round draft picks loses twice to a team with none. I have absolutely no idea what to expect from this team in the NCAA Tournament. I wouldn't be surprised to see them win it all, or lose in their second game. I'll be cheering for them all the way, but my expectations for them aren't very high at this point. Defense is no longer a problem; stagnant offense is the problem.

Winning nattys is a fickle thing. You need a lock of luck, a lot of skill and a lot of chemistry. Just from an armchair perspective, this team seems to be lacking a bit of chemistry. I just don't see it the way I have in past natty teams. Something's just...missing.

But that's just the way it goes. Talent absolutely cannot take you all the way.

[Furniture]

Exactly, not to go all Okulaja, but it's not like the cheats played something anywhere near a pristine game. Sure they racked up assists, helps that both primary facilitators are seniors who are also natural facilitators. But a team truly 'good' would have destroyed this inept Duke team tonight. Duke has largely been struggling on offense for over a month now. As has been shown already it doesn't take much of an effort to accomplish that.

Thats a bit strong. Booooo.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

There are only three titles Duke could have won this year (Unless we’re going to hang a Phil Knight banner). They didn’t win the first, and they didn’t win the second. They have a shot at the third - but our turnover problem has contributed to every loss this year. Too many, and at very bad times. How are you going to change this team into a team that values possessions 33 games into the season? I don’t think they can change.

If Duval doesn’t get injured, I think you would see a different outcome.

[Rich]

UNC is a good team and roy had a good gameplan. They match up well with us and were prepared for the zone.

fortunately most teams from here on out won't have.

next play time. we know who we are. heal up boys.

Sporkz to you if i could for being a voice of reason. Same goes for Jim Sumner. Too many negative wankers on this board. Same people who thought we were the greatest thing since sliced bread when we beat Carolina in Durham. No loss is as bad as people think, no win as great.

[weezie]

Ok, x-rays negative on Trevon. And yes, I know, sprains can be worse.

[CDu]

I partly agree, but the big advantage UNC got with those offensive rebounds at the end was more time to stall, not extra points that show up in the PPP stats.

Oh absolutely. Those were crushing. Especially because two were tipped by our guys away from our guys. But if we don’t play so poorly on offense, those rebounds aren’t so backbreaking.

[KandG]

It seems like Duke still has not figured out a way to have both an inside game and an outside game. At times they pass the ball inside and the bigs (one more than the others) will force a shot while being double teamed or turn it over. Or guards force a pass inside and turn the ball over. This team struggles to run an offense where interior play and outside shooting can complement each other. I miss the days of pass the ball inside, take the double team and pass back out to the open shooter. Or drive the lane, get double teamed and pass to the open big. This team may do that at times but not consistently and it IMO it hurts the offense.

This balance in Duke's inside and outside game improved a lot the last two games with Duval's evolution (and the coaching staff implementing more sets for Duval to kick out to shooters from different angles), which is why the injury was such a shame. Trevon's still turnover prone, but he had improved his ability to put on the brakes after getting past defenders (avoiding the early season tendency to go strictly heads down), which allowed him the opportunity to see the floor better and either find one of the big men rolling, or a shooter flaring out.

When he got hurt tonight, it was easier for UNC to crowd the lane with bigs, and made it much easier for Pinson to shadow Bagley...Pinson didn't have to worry as much about another guard penetrating, as Allen and Trent just aren't as good playmaking with the ball. To Gary's credit, he started to take it on himself (with some success) to make plays for himself in the second half to account for UNC focusing so heavily on the bigs and Grayson, but it's still not a very balanced approach to offense.

[Duke76]

you know the problem intention is not always flagrant and in this case it was not....the refs almost never get the call right when it was a foul but not intentional ..... there should have been no call....cause they missed it live....it should have been a no call once they look at the tape

refs rarely get that right in that instance...they feel like they have to call the flagrant in that instance

[kako]

I love Grayson butt it was clearly intentional. The refs hit rock bottom for me with the flagrant. Anyway the tail will tell a story that Duke hit their extremity only at the end of the game. Disappointing butt we tip our hats to the ACC tournament and head to the NCAA.

Right. In the presser, Allen admitted it. Basically he said that they had a fast break, he hip checked him, and they called a foul. It *was* a foul. For any other player it probably would not be called flagrant on replay. But Allen has a rep. It's like why MJ, LeBron, Curry - they all get the calls. Allen gets his, too, but from a different angle. He really should play smarter. The problem was that it wasn't caught live, so the refs used a flagrant.

[tbyers11]

Ok, x-rays negative on Trevon. And yes, I know, sprains can be worse.

Did you actually see somewhere that x-rays were negative or is that wishful thinking?

[bludevil_33]

Dear lord how petty...officiating is the most subjective sport to call. Both of you should move on.

[84Duke]

If Duval doesn’t get injured, I think you would see a different outcome.

Not like anyone can prove you wrong. Note that Duval had 6 TOs vs. Notre Dame - and that was one of his good, healthy games.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I mean, he’s right. It was an intentional hip check. People saying it wasn’t are kidding themselves. Homeboy can’t control his emotions and it’s painfully obvious.

FWIW, I love the kid and hope he gets a handle on it. Maybe the NBA will put him in the right place mentally where he actually thinks before he acts. He’s a great player but you just can’t do stupid wankerwanker like that, even if it’s not malicious.

Allen’s lack of ability to play within himself on the court is his biggest weakness. We saw that at the end of both halves tonight.

But last time I checked we all have faults...

Grayson is an amazing player, a truly great person, and a Champion.

[weezie]

As always, interesting presser. Love me some Coach K when he's shutting some needler down. Hip bump.

[DaleDuke7]

I like the part where some posters are mourning an early NCAA-exit that hasn't actually happened yet.

BTW, anybody else remember how that 2015 Duke team did in the ACC Tournament?

A week to get healthy should help. So would some bench production.

But a fair number of recent NCAA champions from the ACC did not win the ACC Tournament. Including two pretty recent ones.

Deep cleansing breather. Repeat.


I do understand this sentiment, but it's important to compare apples to apples.

Duke was coming off a 12-game winning streak in 2015 when it ran into an absolutely hot Notre Dame team in the ACCT. It was a hiccup. That team was a clear 1 seed.

This year's team is a wobbling 2 seed. Playing somewhat inconsistently over their past 5 games. Tonight was close to a train wreck.

Let's not pretend there's zero nail biting going on about what the NCAAT is going to look like for Duke.

I have seen many posters here and from the twitter world comparing this team to the 2015 team. And comparing certain things that happen in various years to whatever our current year team is. Personally, I think it holds little to no significance. Unless perhaps to give ourselves some confidence and remain optimistic. So many times I see these comparisons and 95% of the time it never works out the same way. I don’t think it has any foresight into what will happen whatsoever. This team, and pretty much every team we’ve had the last several years, are vastly different from each other. We have different players who do, or don’t do, different things. Different playing styles, different defense (this year), almost different everything. Sure, Duke could go on to win the championship, but it won’t be because we went out the same way in 2015 in the ACC tournament. It’ll be because we shoot well, take care of the ball, rebound, play defense, and play together. Let’s focus on this team, this year. Let’s focus on “now”.

[weezie]

Did you actually see somewhere that x-rays were negative or is that wishful thinking?

K said it in the presser.

[bludevil_33]

If Duval doesn’t get injured, I think you would see a different outcome.

I didn't see anything fundamentally different from Duval than normal after the first few minutes back on the court. Some good plays, some not good plays, some head scratchers. He was pretty much average Duval.

[Wildling]

I love Grayson butt it was clearly intentional. The refs hit rock bottom for me with the flagrant. Anyway the tail will tell a story that Duke hit their extremity only at the end of the game. Disappointing butt we tip our hats to the ACC tournament and head to the NCAA.

Well done sir! :D

[Bluedog]

Coach K in postgame press conference said that they just added the trapping techniques to the zone in the last week. And that it worked pretty well. Said maybe they should have started doing it earlier in the game. Something to look out for during the NCAAs.

[CDu]

As always, interesting presser. Love me some Coach K when he's shutting some needler down. Hip bump.

I loved how both handled it.

[Devil549]

The only thing they could call after watching reply was flagrant foul.....gamesmanship all it was and he got caught.

Coach should have taken him out for a few minutes to settle him down and move ahead.

Carolina fans are going to make a big deal out of it....that is part of the Carolina Way like not going to class and having a secreatary grade academic paper as well as issuing grades.

[TruBlu]

Duke also started to press, which helped throw off UNC's rhythm.

Additionally, it seemed to me that for the last 6 or 7 minutes of the game*, on defense we were dropping one of our guards to the free throw line, which unc was using either for an open shot from there or a kickout to a 3 point shot. I wish we had made an adjustment earlier.

*I would go back and re-watch to make sure, but for 2 reasons: 1) I angrily deleted the recording as soon as the horn sounded, and 2) I wouldn't want to go back and re-watch any part of a loss to Cheater U.

For those who say that our lack of offense (and turnovers) lost the game, our defense was not without some of the blame as well.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Not like anyone can prove you wrong. Note that Duval had 6 TOs vs. Notre Dame - and that was one of his good, healthy games.

Look at what a healthy Duval did 6 days ago against the CHeats if you want an answer.

Berry had no answer for his penetration, setting up Bags for easy dunks and open 3’s for the outside shooters.

[FerryFor50]

I didn't see anything fundamentally different from Duval than normal after the first few minutes back on the court. Some good plays, some not good plays, some head scratchers. He was pretty much average Duval.

You mean other than the lack of speed and explosiveness and tentativeness to try to drive and make plays and not really trying to play passing lanes on defense? The injury clearly had an effect, whether it was physical or mental.

Duval has been much better over the past few games and seemed to be figuring things out. This game was a bit of a step back.

[uh_no]

our defense was not without some of the blame as well.

That's kind of always true in a game when you don't shut the opponents out......

While duke wasn't able to hold UNC under 1 PPP....they were pretty darn close, and we must have done something right as our defensive ranking moved from 10->7

[bludevil_33]

Of course now it’s the top story of the game, which is completely absurd.


Part of life is accepting all the negative consequences that come with poor decision making. We all get to choose our actions. We don't get to choose our consequences. It sucks for Grayson, but this is life.

Grayson is like the boy who cried wolf now. He knows, or should know, that because of his choices, every single play involving contact he's in is going to be scrutinized by players, fans, officials and sports commentators. It's the bed he made. Maturity requires recognition of this fact, and adjusting behavior accordingly.

You know what Allen would done had he been in this mindset? He would have stopped and helped the guy up. He would have showed an extra measure of sportsmanship. He would have made SOME effort to show he wasn't trying to do anything in the vicinity of dirty.

But Grayson just hasn't trained himself to think that way all the time yet. It's unfortunate, but it's reality, no matter how bad it turns out for Duke.

[tbyers11]

I didn't see anything fundamentally different from Duval than normal after the first few minutes back on the court. Some good plays, some not good plays, some head scratchers. He was pretty much average Duval.

Really? He couldn't push off his right leg and was noticeably limping at times. Agree that he has some head-scratchers when healthy but I think a bad ankle definitely made him less effective.

[weezie]

I loved how both handled it.


Best thing to do is ice it. Narrowed stare and let it lay there. And although many here disdain criticizing the refs, I think they've been pretty damned bad all around the country this year. The verticality rule is simply ignored. The block/charge circle is laughable. I wish I had a penny for slammed collar bones and head bruises that go completely unseen. Foot jamming, jersey grabbing, AND YEAH HIP BUMPING, all night every night.

Get rid of college refs if there's going to be a new development league. Train them better, get younger refs and make them run like the players.

[Dub]

HATE losing to UNC as much as the rest of you, but if we make a long run in the tourney does this loss really matter? I don’t see much difference behind a West #1 seed and an East #2 seed. We need to rest and get healthy. At some point in the tourney, we will face adversity and I feel we’re very equipped to handle it. Hate losing but not devastated. It’s sad but I have a mini man crush of Theo Pinson. Kids like him make college basketball worthwhile. On to the tourney!

[kako]

For those who say that our lack of offense (and turnovers) lost the game, our defense was not without some of the blame as well.

Yes, the back line of the zone wasn't so great. But Duke held them to under 40% shooting. The problem was that we allowed so many o-rebounds so they had so many more shots. But the TOs were clearly the main thing that killed Duke. It was the first thing out of K's mouth.

[wallyman]

Duval injury played a huge role. But key stat upthread — we’re 0-6 in last six games decided by 5 points or less. That’s not the profile of a real contender. We don’t have a guard or wing like Berry or Brunson who’s going to win for you when the game is on the line. Love Grayson but we’ve seen this time and again. One, he won’t get a call with the game on the line and two, he’s just not quick enough or steady enough to put himself in a position to win the game. If you can’t won close games, it’s hard to see how you win many NCAAT games and almost impossible to see winning 6 of them. Maybe we’re due and Grayson is due but not much evidence for it.

[uh_no]

HATE losing to UNC as much as the rest of you, but if we make a long run in the tourney does this loss really matter?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina%E2%80%93Duke_rivalry

of course it does. it will forever show up here as a loss for carolina. forever.

[CDu]

Additionally, it seemed to me that for the last 6 or 7 minutes of the game*, on defense we were dropping one of our guards to the free throw line, which unc was using either for an open shot from there or a kickout to a 3 point shot. I wish we had made an adjustment earlier.

*I would go back and re-watch to make sure, but for 2 reasons: 1) I angrily deleted the recording as soon as the horn sounded, and 2) I wouldn't want to go back and re-watch any part of a loss to Cheater U.

For those who say that our lack of offense (and turnovers) lost the game, our defense was not without some of the blame as well.

The defense held a 122 efficiency offense to either a roughly 100 efficiency. No, it wasn’t uniformly great: it was beaten for stretches and dominant for stretches. We lost this game because we failed to score a point per possession when we have the #2 offense on the year and UNC had about the 40th best defense coming in.

[bludevil_33]

You mean other than the lack of speed and explosiveness and tentativeness to try to drive and make plays and not really trying to play passing lanes on defense? The injury clearly had an effect, whether it was physical or mental.

Duval has been much better over the past few games and seemed to be figuring things out. This game was a bit of a step back.

Yeah, Duval plays hesitant a LOT. Duval misses defensive assignments a LOT. You've still shown me nothing that's incredibly out of the ordinary for him.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

You mean other than the lack of speed and explosiveness and tentativeness to try to drive and make plays and not really trying to play passing lanes on defense? The injury clearly had an effect, whether it was physical or mental.

Duval has been much better over the past few games and seemed to be figuring things out. This game was a bit of a step back.

I thought he did play a little tentative after the ankle injury....the good news is he played on and didn't go down for the season, it looked bad at first.

[jipops]

I think one of the real bizzare aspects of this Duke team is that as it ends the season with a lack of steady pg play on offense being its major weakness...the player playing that position will be jumping early to the NBA draft. Some things just don't make logical sense.

[CDu]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina%E2%80%93Duke_rivalry

of course it does. it will forever show up here as a loss for carolina. forever.

And if they upset UVa tomorrow, they get to hang a banner.

[FerryFor50]

Yeah, Duval plays hesitant a LOT. Duval misses defensive assignments a LOT. You've still shown me nothing that's incredibly out of the ordinary for him.

He wasn't missing defensive assignments. He wasn't even *trying* to play passing lanes, which is something he normally does a lot.

And he hasn't been hesitant the past several games. He was in this one because he was obviously not 100% physically.

[uh_no]

And if they upset UVa tomorrow, they get to hang a banner.

well...this IS unc....so if they lose to UVa tomorrow, they'll still probably hang a banner.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

The defense held a 122 efficiency offense to either a roughly 100 efficiency. No, it wasn’t uniformly great: it was beaten for stretches and dominant for stretches. We lost this game because we failed to score a point per possession when we have the #2 offense on the year and UNC had about the 40th best defense coming in.

UNC's defensive ranking will improve after this game.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Too bad Duke didn't get another shot at Virginia. Think Duke definitely would win. In fact I think North Carolina wins tomorrow unfortunately.

[FerryFor50]

Too bad Duke didn't get another shot at Virginia. Think Duke definitely would win. In fact I think North Carolina wins tomorrow unfortunately.

With as uneven as this offense has been? Against the top defense in the ACC? Ehh....

[KandG]

I didn't see anything fundamentally different from Duval than normal after the first few minutes back on the court. Some good plays, some not good plays, some head scratchers. He was pretty much average Duval.

Whatever you think of his ability, Duval was clearly was not moving as well as he has all season. He would attempt to drive, couldn't stop on the ankle properly, then struggled to sprint back on defense after a miss or turnover. His attempted kick outs to shooters or bounce passes in the lane were almost always short or off target -- he get turnovers even when he's healthy, but everything looked weak as a result of not planting properly. At the head of the zone, he could barely stretch off one leg to extend his arm into passing lanes.

Only at the end when the team started pressing very aggressively did Duval seem to move with a little more energy, and even then his movements were constrained. But it's pretty clear from some of your other comments here that you don't give him any benefit of the doubt, so whatever.

[bludevil_33]

He wasn't missing defensive assignments. He wasn't even *trying* to play passing lanes, which is something he normally does a lot.


This is demonstrably false. I'm watching a replay of the second half as we speak. The backcourt is intentionally cheating back on passing lanes in order to prevent UNC from dumping the ball into the middle, where they killed us all night.

[Dukehky]

Jeeze, I need Grayson to leave for my own heart's sake. He gets absolutely obliterated. Hope it's after 6 more games though. I actually wouldn't be shocked if he got suspended for a game or two. Ridiculousness.

Also, Kennedy Meeks is such a fat punk. His twitter rants were ridiculous,

[CDu]

UNC's defensive ranking will improve after this game.

Obviously. Not the point though.

[DangerDevil]

well...this IS unc...so if they lose to UVa tomorrow, they'll still probably hang a banner.

With all the banners they have in their rafters it might be hard to put up another one but I wouldn't put it past them.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/image/6855281/?ref_id=7244942

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honored_North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_men%27s_basketbal l_players#/media/File%3ASmith_Center_jerseys_updated.jpg

[rsvman]

Duval injury played a huge role. But key stat upthread — we’re 0-6 in last six games decided by 5 points or less. That’s not the profile of a real contender. We don’t have a guard or wing like Berry or Brunson who’s going to win for you when the game is on the line. Love Grayson but we’ve seen this time and again. One, he won’t get a call with the game on the line and two, he’s just not quick enough or steady enough to put himself in a position to win the game. If you can’t won close games, it’s hard to see how you win many NCAAT games and almost impossible to see winning 6 of them. Maybe we’re due and Grayson is due but not much evidence for it.

The UVa game in Cameron last year must be a figment of my imagination.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

The floor seemed to be slippery...that may have gotten into Duval's head after his ankle injury and made him more careful too.

[FerryFor50]

This is demonstrably false. I'm watching a replay of the second half as we speak. The backcourt is intentionally cheating back on passing lanes in order to prevent UNC from dumping the ball into the middle, where they killed us all night.

Cheating back is not what I'm referring to. Healthy Duval attempts to jump passing lanes and gambles. Injured Duval played ultra conservative in the zone.

[jipops]

I thought he did play a little tentative after the ankle injury...the good news is he played on and didn't go down for the season, it looked bad at first.

As these sorts of things usually go, I'd bet that he's out of practice for awhile. And it wouldn't surprise me if he misses the ncaat opener.

[szstark]

I agree completely. Just saying it absolutely WAS intentional. I would have had no problem if they had called a live ball foul there. But the flagrant was silly.

That being said, that call wasn’t why we lost.

I don’t think you can make a live ball foul call after the fact from a monitor. The call wasn’t made live. If it had been, the basket wouldn’t have counted. Giving them the basket, then two shots plus the ball was huge, especially since we were making a move at the time. It definitely had a major impact on the game.

[bludevil_33]

Cheating back is not what I'm referring to. Healthy Duval attempts to jump passing lanes and gambles. Injured Duval played ultra conservative in the zone.

The whole team was playing ultra conservative at the top of the zone. (Probably because they were instructed to do so in order to keep the ball out of the middle)

[weezie]

...that call wasn’t why we lost.

Exactly what K said.

[bludevil_33]

I don’t think you can make a live ball foul call after the fact from a monitor.

You can if it's determined to be a flagrant.

[Saratoga2]

I would have preferred seeing Duval on the bench in the 2nd half. He had trouble just getting up and down the court with his injured ankle, much less running an offense and playing defense. Giving AOC, Javin, and Jack more court time with Grayson at point would have been worth a try.

AOC guards on the perimeter a little too far off the potential 3 point shooter and often keeps his hands down. At least one 3 point shot was hit over him because of it. The kid is tall for a guard and long and is quick. His technique of guarding needs some fine tuning. He also had a couple of TO's so don't think he could help much tonight against UNC. His main help was to give our starters a breather.

[jv001]

Oh absolutely. Those were crushing. Especially because two were tipped by our guys away from our guys. But if we don’t play so poorly on offense, those rebounds aren’t so backbreaking.

One of those tips came from Trevon and I bet if he wasn't hobbled he would have grabbed the ball and headed the other way with it. I think we had cut the lead to 3 points and I was hoping for a runout 3 by Gary or Grayson. GoDuke!

[CDu]

I don’t think you can make a live ball foul call after the fact from a monitor. The call wasn’t made live. If it had been, the basket wouldn’t have counted. Giving them the basket, then two shots plus the ball was huge, especially since we were making a move at the time. It definitely had a major impact on the game.

I meant a foul call in a live ball situation. They missed the call live. Thus, it should have stayed a no-call.

[bludevil_33]

I meant a foul call in a live ball situation. They missed the call live. Thus, it should have stayed a no-call.

False. The rules clearly state you can go back to the monitor to catch and call a flagrant. You'll see coaches all the time ask the officials to check the monitor for an elbow after the fact.

[CDu]

False. The rules clearly state you can go back to the monitor to catch and call a flagrant. You'll see coaches all the time ask the officials to check the monitor for an elbow after the fact.

You clearly did not understand what I said. I know the rules. I am saying they should not have called it a flagrant, not that they could not.

[wallyman]

The UVa game in Cameron last year must be a figment of my imagination.

You made my point. One game. Last year. I love Grayson but there are killers who do it time and again. One game. Last year. (When he traveled). That’s not much to hang your hat on. Maybe he and we are due.

[DangerDevil]

You clearly did not understand what I said. I know the rules. I am saying they should not have called it a flagrant, not that they could not.

Your explanation has been clear and easy to understand.

[Dub]

Well I’ll take a Natty over an ACC championship every day of the week. Nothing is guaranteed but I have a good feeling about this team. This loss stings but the next one is the last for our starting 5. Let’s hope they don’t lose again! Rest up, keep playing solid D, and let the dominos fall as they may. No team in the country scares me. That’s definitely different than previous years.

[bludevil_33]

You clearly did not understand what I said. I know the rules. I am saying they should not have called it a flagrant, not that they could not.

Oh I see. This was your incredibly convoluted way of expressing that you didn't like a call that went against Duke. My mistake. :rolleyes:

[Dukehky]

You clearly did not understand what I said. I know the rules. I am saying they should not have called it a flagrant, not that they could not.

Garrison Brooks saying "that's what he does."

Someone has got a case of the muscles after his first double digit scoring game of the season.

They are all the worst and can go straight to hell.

[CDu]

Oh I see. This was your incredibly convoluted way of expressing that you didn't like a call that went against Duke. My mistake. :rolleyes:

It wasn’t that convoluted, but yes. Sorry you were confused.

[bludevil_33]

It wasn’t that convoluted, but yes. Sorry you were confused.

One one side, you have three incredibly well-trained and incredibly successful professionals who have made multiple trips to the Final Four and are universally respected by their peers, coaches and players.

One the other side, you have a dude from a message board with a three-letter moniker.

You totally win, bro.

[CDu]

One one side, you have three incredibly well-trained and incredibly successful professionals who have made multiple trips to the Final Four and are universally respected by their peers, coaches and players.

One the other side, you have a dude from a message board with a three-letter moniker.

You totally win, bro.

Okay. Whatever you say, “bro.” Because refs NEVER make mistakes, amiright?

[DangerDevil]

One one side, you have three incredibly well-trained and incredibly successful professionals who have made multiple trips to the Final Four and are universally respected by their peers, coaches and players.

One the other side, you have a dude from a message board with a three-letter moniker.

You totally win, bro.


Okay. Whatever you say, “bro.” Because refs NEVER make mistakes, amiright?

No one one ever makes mistakes

[bludevil_33]

Okay. Whatever you say, “bro.”


No, let's be clear. This is not about what I say. What I said is 100% verifiable.

[CoachJ10]

This
One one side, you have three incredibly well-trained and incredibly successful professionals who have made multiple trips to the Final Four and are universally respected by their peers, coaches and players.

One the other side, you have a dude from a message board with a three-letter moniker.

You totally win, bro.

Your posting has become juvenile. I suggest you take a step back before the mods do something.

[CDu]

No, let's be clear. This is not about what I say. What I said is 100% verifiable.

Whatever you say, bro.

[FerryFor50]

No, let's be clear. This is not about what I say. What I said is 100% verifiable.

Feel free to verify. Else, stop making claims you can't back up.

[bludevil_33]

I suggest you take a step back before the mods do something.


My god, the horror.

[Skydog]

Too bad Duke didn't get another shot at Virginia. Think Duke definitely would win. In fact I think North Carolina wins tomorrow unfortunately.

Not sure why you think this - VA has clearly been the best team in the ACC this season.

[bludevil_33]

Feel free to verify. Else, stop making claims you can't back up.

I'm sure you're skilled enough to use Google and see how many Final Fours Ted Valentine and Mike Eades have under his belt. Do you really need me to launch into a diatribe about what it takes to get to the Final Four as an official?

[devildeac]

False. The rules clearly state you can go back to the monitor to catch and call a flagrant. You'll see coaches all the time ask the officials to check the monitor for an elbow after the fact.

Elbow? WTH? There was no elbow on that play. Two wrong calls don't make a right call. IIRC, there are no more "intentional" foul calls. Did GA foul him "intentionally?" Probably/likely. Is it a flagrant? No.

[g-money]

I agree with most of the posters' assessments of the game that above all else, turnovers cost us the game. (Not that our defense or defensive rebounding were much better :mad: ).

From my perspective, what led to a lot of the turnovers was stagnation on offense. There was too much dribbling by the guards and not enough passing and cutting. This led to a lot of forced and/or low-percentage shots. This was a physical game, which implies that in order to get good shots, we needed to set better screens (and run off them better), and the guards needed to keep moving at all times to tire Carolina out. I realize that Trevon's injury limited our penetration and dishes/kick outs, but as a team we needed to do better. There were many plays where someone would pass up a wide open teammate to try to beat their defender 1-on-1.

Up at the NBA level, the Warriors chart passes per game as one of the key metrics that they use to evaluate the team's performance. I'd be curious to know how we stacked up against Carolina tonight on this metric. I suspect that the numbers would bear out that Carolina's offense was a work of art, ours more like graffiti.

With the zone largely covering up our defensive weaknesses, I think our ability to win the next 6 games depends largely on how well we work together to get good shots. This year's team is much better than last year's bunch at sharing the ball, but if they want to win out, they can't forget to do it when the pressure ramps up.

[devildeac]

You made my point. One game. Last year. I love Grayson but there are killers who do it time and again. One game. Last year. (When he traveled). That’s not much to hang your hat on. Maybe he and we are due.

After he was fouled. Once. Maybe twice.

[Dukehky]

I'm sure you're skilled enough to use Google and see how many Final Fours Ted Valentine and Mike Eades have under his belt. Do you really need me to launch into a diatribe about what it takes to get to the Final Four as an official?

Anyone who supports Ted Valentine is a troll. There is a reason everyone in the country hates him. Just stop posting.

[bludevil_33]

Elbow? WTH? There was no elbow on that play. Two wrong calls don't make a right call. IIRC, there are no more "intentional" foul calls. Did GA foul him "intentionally?" Probably/likely. Is it a flagrant? No.

I wasn't referring to an elbow on that play. I was referring to the fact that it's quite routine to go to the monitor after a play has already unfolded. Many times it's to check for an elbow, and many times the request to check the monitor is made by a coach.

[FerryFor50]

I'm sure you're skilled enough to use Google and see how many Final Fours Ted Valentine has under his belt. Do you really need me to launch into a diatribe about what it takes to get to the Final Four as an official?

Yep, I'm aware how many NCAA tourny games he officiates.

I'm also aware of stuff like this, which is far from an isolated incident:

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2018/1/7/16860364/ted-valentine-joel-berry-referee-north-carolina-tar-heels-florida-state-tv-teddy

"Well respected by coaches":

http://awfulannouncing.com/2014/dan-dakich-rightfully-destroys-ted-valentine.html
https://deadspin.com/mick-cronin-needed-to-be-separated-from-referee-ted-val-1534275655

See? I provided evidence for my claims. You should try it.

[jv001]

Oh I see. This was your incredibly convoluted way of expressing that you didn't like a call that went against Duke. My mistake. :rolleyes:

I believe we have a cheat fan here with some needless posting and agitating the heck out of us. GoDuke!

[gofurman]

I didn't see anything fundamentally different from Duval than normal after the first few minutes back on the court. Some good plays, some not good plays, some head scratchers. He was pretty much average Duval.

Little difft. Didn't attempt a layup or two. Less explosive

[devildeac]

I wasn't referring to an elbow on that play. I was referring to the fact that it's quite routine to go to the monitor after a play has already unfolded. Many times it's to check for an elbow, and many times the request to check the monitor is made by a coach.

Then don't use it as a strawman or example to support your claim.

[84Duke]

I sure hope bludevil_33 isn’t Kenny Dennard.

[bludevil_33]

Yep, I'm aware how many NCAA tourny games he officiates.

I'm also aware of stuff like this, which is far from an isolated incident:

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2018/1/7/16860364/ted-valentine-joel-berry-referee-north-carolina-tar-heels-florida-state-tv-teddy

"Well respected by coaches":

http://awfulannouncing.com/2014/dan-dakich-rightfully-destroys-ted-valentine.html
https://deadspin.com/mick-cronin-needed-to-be-separated-from-referee-ted-val-1534275655

See? I provided evidence for my claims. You should try it.

Wait.

Wait wait wait. You just cited Dan Dakich?

[FerryFor50]

Then don't use it as a strawman or example to support your claim.

His idea of "evidence" is to make an absolute claim and then tell you to go Google it. Pretty effective. :rolleyes:

[bludevil_33]

Best referees, as voted on by coaches. (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/candid-coaches-who-is-the-best-referee-in-college-basketball/) Guess who's at the top of the list??

[bludevil_33]

Then don't use it as a strawman or example to support your claim.


It's not a strawman. It's called an example.

[FerryFor50]

Best referees, as voted on by coaches. (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/candid-coaches-who-is-the-best-referee-in-college-basketball/) Guess who's at the top of the list??

Roger Ayers.

[bludevil_33]

Roger Ayers.

Hmmm...which is worse, not providing facts, or intentionally ignoring them when they're right in front of your face?

[OZ]

I meant a foul call in a live ball situation. They missed the call live. Thus, it should have stayed a no-call.

The refs put themselves in a catch 22... clearly there was a foul... clearly they had missed it... so, they compound it by making it "fRagrant" foul. The results were almost obligatory to save a little dignity... but their choice stunk.
As to the foul... it was a foul. Allen made one of those sneaky moves that experienced players make. He almost got away with it. Take another look at Bonzie's foul last night that involved Carter running into the back of him; a similar play... Bonzie, an experienced player... knowing Carter was coming and in foul trouble stops, leans to his left a bit, is hit from behind by an unsuspecting rookie, resulting in an award winning fall and a foul on Carter - Bonzie played it to perfection and suckered in a ref that saw the collision but not the play.
Now Bonzie was applauded for making a smart play. Allen, tonight, on ESPN already has a inane article about "Allen is Back." I'm betting the author was always chosen last at recess for dodge ball. He hates probably athletes.

[FerryFor50]

Hmmm...which is worse, not providing facts, or intentionally ignoring them when they're right in front of your face?

You are bad at this.

8190

[bludevil_33]

You are bad at this.

8190

Dude, you're clearly trolling on this topic. I'm done talking about it.

[devildeac]

It's not a strawman. It's called an example.

Bad example. It was an illegal/moving screen, a common foul that they missed, not a flagrant foul, so don't go back to replay and "invent" a call. Huge difference. Admit to the coaches you missed a call and move on. Don't award a team 2 shots and possession to "make-up" for the call you missed.

[bludevil_33]

Bad example. It was an illegal/moving screen, a common foul that they missed, not a flagrant foul, so don't go back to replay and "invent" a call. Huge difference. Admit to the coaches you missed a call and move on. Don't award a team 2 shots and possession to "make-up" for the call you missed.

That's certainly your opinion. That's now how I read the rulebook. That's not how they read the rule book.

You're free to disagree, which you clearly do. It's over. Move on.

[jv001]

That's certainly your opinion. That's now how I read the rulebook. That's not how they read the rule book.

You're free to disagree, which you clearly do. It's over. Move on.

Good night , you've given me a headache. GoDuke!

[FerryFor50]

Dude, you're clearly trolling on this topic. I'm done talking about it.

Ooh, what does Kenpom say?

https://kenpom.com/blog/roger-ayers-is-the-best-ref/

Yea, still not TV Teddy. Still Roger Ayers.

8191

On a side note, is there anything KenPom *can't* do?

[Saratoga2]

Looking through the stats I notice of our 18 TO's, 4 were charged to Grayson, 5 to Trevon and 2 to Alex and 0 to Gary. That adds up to 11 TO's by our guards. Can we cut down on those? I hope so because that can be the difference in close games against good teams and were tonight.

[Wahoo2000]

Bad example. It was an illegal/moving screen, a common foul that they missed, not a flagrant foul, so don't go back to replay and "invent" a call. Huge difference. Admit to the coaches you missed a call and move on. Don't award a team 2 shots and possession to "make-up" for the call you missed.

As somebody without a horse in the race, I'm going to say they decided to interpret Allen's action as a non-basketball play. That, and also given that the result was a bad fall by opponent, AND Allen's history (argue all you want that it SHOULDN'T be a factor, but let's be real - it makes them more likely to view the play as a "cheap shot") probably leads them to call it a flagrant. Which I think is within the rules IF they believe Allen was making a non-basketball play, i.e. "taking a shot" at the guy.

I don't think I would call a flagrant in that situation, but I could see that side of it - EVEN if Allen weren't involved. 50/50 call that could go either way most of the time, but the combo of a bad fall by UNC player and Allen's history probably push it over the edge. Honestly, not even the worst flagrant call in the tournament (Berry's vs Miami and Diakite vs Clemson were both significantly worse, IMO).

[FerryFor50]

As somebody without a horse in the race, I'm going to say they decided to interpret Allen's action as a non-basketball play. That, and also given that the result was a bad fall by opponent, AND Allen's history (argue all you want that it SHOULDN'T be a factor, but let's be real - it makes them more likely to view the play as a "cheap shot") probably leads them to call it a flagrant. Which I think is within the rules IF they believe Allen was making a non-basketball play, i.e. "taking a shot" at the guy.

I don't think I would call a flagrant in that situation, but I could see that side of it - EVEN if Allen weren't involved. 50/50 call that could go either way most of the time, but the combo of a bad fall by UNC player and Allen's history probably push it over the edge. Honestly, not even the worst flagrant call in the tournament (Berry's vs Miami and Diakite vs Clemson were both significantly worse, IMO).

Berry's elbow made contact with someone's face. He consistently leads with elbows on layups. That was a legit flagrant.

The one tonight? Less than 50/50 call, IMO. Brooks wasn't hurt. UNC just scored. Don't give two shots and ball. Instead, call a make up foul later.

[robed deity]

Looking through the stats I notice of our 18 TO's, 4 were charged to Grayson, 5 to Trevon and 2 to Alex and 0 to Gary. That adds up to 11 TO's by our guards. Can we cut down on those? I hope so because that can be the difference in close games against good teams and were tonight.

Weird, I'm pretty sure I remember a particularly bad one by Trent in the first half.

[InSpades]

I would still love to know what they called on Grayson that he got a flagrant foul. Getting in the way of a player trying to get up the court? When Bonzi Colson did that to Wendell Carter it was a foul on Wendell! You are allowed to get in another players way. That's not illegal.

Anyway...

Carolina got way too many easy shots. Yes, I know, they shot 40% blah blah blah. There's always room for improvement. Other teams will have bigs who can hit the open jump shot from the free throw line (like Notre Dame and Carolina both did). I love the zone but I think it can be even better. The 2 weaknesses are #1, obviously, we give up the middle. That's not unique to our zone... but we have to do a better job on collapsing on the middle and making the play from there more difficult. #2... it appears we often just have defenders guarding empty court. Marvin especially seems to do this. Worse... he often ends up on the wrong side of an opposing player when a shot goes up so that he can't even get the rebound. When you're not guarding anyone you should be moving close to the basket.

On offense we need to figure out ways to get easier shots. We have very talented offensive players but we don't seem to use them very effectively all the time. I'd love to see us give the ball to Marvin more at the edge of the free throw line. He basically demands a double team from there. Spread the court a bit, give him room to operate. He had some remarkable finishes tonight (and every other night). We just need to get into better sets. The turnovers come from us forcing the ball inside when it's not there and then trying to make a difficult play.

Anyway... very impressed w/ the grit the team showed in their comeback. If we could see that for 40 minutes we might never lose. Also impressed by Duval coming back in the game and giving his all. He was clearly not 100% but he wanted to be out there. Wish we had made some better decisions down the stretch.

Best of luck to the Hoos tomorrow. Next play!

[Nugget]

It was intentional. Come on. He didn’t even make contact with Johnson. He knew it too, you could see his face on the sideline after. Shouldn’t have been called a flagrant, but he did do it on purpose.

It was obviously intentional and unbelievably stupid for Grayson to do given his history and the target on his back.

It wasn't "flagrant" in the traditional sense, but under the rules once they'd missed it in real time, could they use the review to call it as just a common foul? Or, was the refs' choice " flagrant" or nothing?

[WHOneedsSOX]

Not sure why you think this - VA has clearly been the best team in the ACC this season.

If Duke plays like they did yesterday they can beat anyone. I know it's rare but it is there. Today was pretty much as bad as they could possibly play and they still almost came back and won. It's more likely they play closer to today than yesterday but you never know. For whatever reason things just haven't clicked this season.

[kako]

Watching the game rewind on my DVR. It's self-flagellation, yes. Do it with me now…


70-56 Carolina. 6:29 left. All Duke starters are in.

Carolina ball after Carter has made 1-2 FTs. Pinson is out with 4 fouls. Carolina runs clock down to 4 left. Berry misses a 3. Bagley rebounds.

Allen drives from right wing and gets stopped. Passes to Duval. Duval feeds Carter in post. Carter throws back to Duval at the top of the key for 3. Duval shoots, hits the front of the rim and the rebound gets tapped out to Berry.

70-56. 5:44 left, time running.

Maye finds the sweet spot in the zone, takes an entry pass with 18 left on the clock and hits.

72-56, 5:33 left, time running.

Allen takes the inbounds, starts at the right wing, then circles over to the top of the key, swishes a 3.

72-59, 5:20 left, time running.

Duke presses and disrupts the start of Carolina's offense. Maye finds the sweet spot again but misses the shot. Williams gets the board but Trent strips him. Trent races upcourt, passes to Duval on the left wing. Duval drives the basket but circles under it, then throws a wild pass back up the lane to... no one (maybe it was for Trent, but clearly off target). It crosses mid-court, and should be over and back. But Williams chases and decides to try to corral it. He stumbles and loses the ball. Duke ball.

72-59, 4:39 left

Allen brings the ball up the left wing, hands off to Duval. He swings a pass back over to Trent on the left wing. Trent passes to Carter at the high post. Carter drops it off to Allen. Allen drives and throws up a lob to Carter. Carter brings it down and then back up and finishes.

72-61, 4:16 left, time running.

Duke can't get into the press. Carolina crosses midcourt and takes time off the clock. Williams misses a 3 with 6 seconds on the shot clock. Bagley gets the board. Trent brings the ball up. Fakes a drive, takes a shot at the top of the key. He misses, Bagley grabs the board and goes back up but is fouled. TV time out. Come back from commercial, Bagley makes both FTs.

72-63, 3:34 left.

Duke presses. Carolina breaks it, finds Maye in the lane. He drives for a dunk but Bagley blocks it. Ball out of bounds to Carolina. Pinson comes back in. Carolina runs the clock down to 11, Johnson takes a 3 and misses. But Carolina gets the board and runs the clock down again to 12. Johnson misses another 3 but still Maye gets the board. Carolina starts the offense again, but this time Berry's pass is deflected by Allen and Bagley comes up with it.

72-63, 2:31 left, time running.

Bagley passes to Carter, who gives it to Duval. Duval crosses midcourt and finds Bagley on the left wing. He starts a drive, trying to split Pinson and Berry. Berry reaches for the ball, Bagley keeps it but turns and charges into Pinson.

72-63, 2:25 left.

Duke presses again, but Carolina breaks it. Duke tries to trap Berry but fails. Johnson take a 3 with 9 seconds left, misses. Bagley gets the board. Passes to Trent, who drives upcourt to the hole. He misses, ball is batted around, Duval finds it. He passes over to the left wing where Allen is. He takes it to the corner and nails the 3. Roy calls TO.

72-66, 1:47 left.

Duke presses and hounds Berry. Allen gets called for the block. It's only Duke's 5th foul.

72-66, 1:38 left.

Carolina passes around, Berry takes a 3 with 6s left. Rebound again to Carolina. Duval slips on a wet spot, refs call TO to wipe it up.

72-66, 1:16 left.

Carolina stalls, but Maye gets trapped on the sideline. He calls TO.

72-66, 1:03 left.

Inbounds to Maye. He gets doubled by Duval and Bagley and passes under pressure to Allen for a TO. Allen hurries it up on the right wing, finds Duval in the corner. Duval drives towards the hole but kicks out to Trent at the left elbow. He drains the 3.

72-69, 0:50.5 left.

Duval tries for the steal on the inbounds, but fouls Berry. 6th foul on Duke.

72-69, 0:49.1 left.

Berry gets the inbound. Duke tries the half-court trap. He swings to Pinson, who appears to travel but is not called. Duke is ball-hawking everywhere but can't get the steal. They back off to play D with 15s left on the shot clock. Pinson gets the ball in the lane, tries to find Maye in traffic in the post. Maye fumbles the ball, Carter picks it up.

72-69, 0:25 left, time running.

Carter gets the ball to Allen. He comes up the left wing. Berry goes for the steal, but Allen spins around him, drives and goes up for a shot. Maye comes over to block, and Williams stands his ground and takes the charge from Allen. K wants a video review. Officials confirm he's clearly outside the restricted zone.

72-69, 0:17.8s left.

Duke presses hard. Pinson gets the ball, races upcourt but picks the ball up on the sideline across midcourt. Duke should foul but still tries to steal. Pinson panics and loses the ball out of bounds. Duke ball. Carolina calls TO.

72-69, 0:11.8 left

Trent inbounds to Allen in the backcourt. Allen brings it up through the center. Bagley and Carter are trying to set screens towards each wing. Carter sets the one on the left. Allen uses it to get past Berry, but Maye switches off Carter and onto Allen. Allen slows up then picks up the ball as Maye fronts him at the 3pt line at the left elbow. No one is in the paint. Trent is to Allen's left and crosses back behind Allen with 6-7 seconds left but is not in position for a pass as Williams is between Trent and Allen. Allen has nowhere to go, so he tries a shot fake which Maye ignores then tries to go under Maye and shoots an off-balance 3 perhaps looking for a foul. It only hits backboard. Pinson has been cheating on Duval on the right wing, and is in easy position for the backboard carom. He's fouled by Carter with 3.2s left. Pinson hits both FTs.

74-69, 0:03.2 left.

Allen races upcourt, misses a wild, meaningless 3 at the buzzer.


There are many what-ifs here, but I'm staring at UNC's offensive rebounds and the time they took off the clock. Also hard to ignore the 2 missed opportunities when Duke had the ball down by 3. That being said, it's clear the intensity finally ratcheted up in the last few minutes, you can see it on their faces in close ups. Duke kept at it and kept fighting. They did get critical stops and forced turnovers. It was a valiant effort to come back in a game where they should have been long dead. Down 16 with 5:33 left, and they had a realistic chance to tie at the end. I've always admired that about Duke. They never give up... But yet, Duke loses to UNC. It sucks.

Wahoo-wa.

9F

[cruxer]

Bad example. It was an illegal/moving screen, a common foul that they missed, not a flagrant foul, so don't go back to replay and "invent" a call. Huge difference. Admit to the coaches you missed a call and move on. Don't award a team 2 shots and possession to "make-up" for the call you missed.

Not to mention here that a common foul stops the flow. So at most they get 2 free throws. In this case, they got a layup, 2 free throws, then possession. They turned it over in possession iirc, but that's still a 4 point possession for a common foul.

[oldnavy]

Not sure why you think this - VA has clearly been the best team in the ACC this season.

I will be really surprised if the heels knock off UVA tonight. Coming off a emotional (as always) Duke game, and playing for a 4th straight day, it will be most impressive if they win.

[oldnavy]

One one side, you have three incredibly well-trained and incredibly successful professionals who have made multiple trips to the Final Four and are universally respected by their peers, coaches and players.

One the other side, you have a dude from a message board with a three-letter moniker.

You totally win, bro.

He does win. His statement was clear and you misunderstood him. Man up and move on.

[UrinalCake]

All of our losses this season have followed a similar pattern. Opposing defense packs the paint and prevents entry passes. We turn the ball over a ton trying to force it in to them. Guards are horrible from three and cannot create open looks.

We’ve got to find a way to get more movement and creativity on offense. Trying to dump it in to Bagley when the defense is sitting on it and then relying on him to make superhuman plays is not a reliable script.

We got off to that horrible start, in large part due to Duval getting hurt and us not responding well. Then it felt like we never really got back into the game until there were 6-7 minutes left. Gutty effort to make the late run, holding them scoreless for several minutes and going something like 13-0, but we had dug ourselves too big a hole.

As for Grayson’s last three, I thought he shot faked and then thought he had gotten Maye in the air and could draw a foul by jumping into him. Not a bad idea, but also not the best play to make either.

Tough loss, hope we can get healthy.

[Coballs]

After what was probably the best game we’ve played all season, last night was unquestionably and shockingly the worst. Absolutely nothing’s positive to take away from that game. The rollercoaster rolls on.

[SamHouston]

I have watched Duke play basketball for 40 years. Last night I was shaking my head for two hours. Am I watching DUKE BASKETBALL?

It's impossible to describe. Time for the Bard to help me out.

[Saratoga2]

If Duke plays like they did yesterday they can beat anyone. I know it's rare but it is there. Today was pretty much as bad as they could possibly play and they still almost came back and won. It's more likely they play closer to today than yesterday but you never know. For whatever reason things just haven't clicked this season.

UNC came out prepared to handle our zone while we came out flat from the getgo. We got down 18 to 5 early on. One might ask, why weren't we prepared to play, as we had played UNC twice this year and only recently handled them. How come so flat?

We climbed out of that hole but them let UNC get a nice lead back by the close of the first halF. Why did we let Berry dribble the length of the court on the last play of the first half? Lack of an appreciation that he would do that if we didn't make him change direction?

Do we lack a floor general to keep the team grounded?

Are the majority of our TO's by guards caused by our plan to force the ball inside to our bigs, or are they simply head scratchers where our player panic and throw the ball away?

lots of questions and not many good answers.

[DukieInBrasil]

Well, that was disappointing.
For much of the game the defense just wasn't able, or designed, to stop what uNCheaters were able to do on the inside. Give Ol'Roy credit, he gave his team a game-plan that Duke wasn't able to counter effectively.
On the other side of the ball, i'm not sure i've seen Duke be so dysfunctional this year, except the 1st 2 games when Marvin came back from injury. I thought that dysfunction had largely been figured out, so that was a big surprise. For most of the game Duval pulled one head-scratcher (or yelling outburst of WTF WAS THAT!!!) after another, and never seemed to find the balance. He certainly never found the bottom of the net. He did have 9 assist+steals / 5 turns, which isn't terrible. Overall, our co-PGs had 11 assists and 9 turnovers, which isn't a particularly encouraging ratio.
Despite the long stretch of anemic offense and mediocre defense, the guys roared back at the end and had a chance to win the game. Right when you need your Sr. leader to step up and make a play, that's what he did, Grayson sank at least one crucial 3 late in the game to fuel the surge. And then when the lead got to 3 for uNCheaters, Grayson pulled a pair of inexplicably bad plays. It's impossible to say those cost us the game, b/c we were already losing, but you can't win a close game with plays like those. Our defense caused a few turnovers by the cheaters right near the end, something we had done really poorly all game, and Allen just couldn't come up with anything that resembled a good play.
We lost the turnover margin 18-13, and the Oboard battle 18-12. Those numbers are why we lost. Play even on either of those stats and Duke wins the game. This team played really young, uNCheaters played like veterans. Our lone veteran couldn't come up with veteran plays down the stretch.

[dyedwab]

Read/saw some of the players locker room quotes and found it disturbing....

...talking about coming out ready to play, having to compete for a full 40 minutes, etc....

...It's been a problem all year that we don't put together a full 40 minutes of basketball.

I thought one to the sparks that led us to the unlikely comeback was Gary Trent wrestling with Joel Berry in what ended up being a jump ball. We seemed to raise our competitiveness around that time.

Anyway, for as good an offense as we have in absolute terms, its long periods of not being able to score whether do to TOs or shot selection is the variable that could prove fatal.