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proelitedota
03-07-2018, 08:25 PM
Record at UNC as head coach. Retired at age 60.

1997–98 North Carolina 34–4 13–3 2nd NCAA Final Four
1998–99 North Carolina 24–10 10–6 3rd NCAA First Round
1999–00 North Carolina 22–14 10–6 3rd NCAA Final Four

Seems like a good start for any coach at any program.

CDu
03-07-2018, 08:29 PM
Record at UNC as head coach. Retired at age 60.

1997–98 North Carolina 34–4 13–3 2nd NCAA Final Four
1998–99 North Carolina 24–10 10–6 3rd NCAA First Round
1999–00 North Carolina 22–14 10–6 3rd NCAA Final Four

Seems like a good start for any coach at any program.

Because he couldn’t recruit. Notice that downward trend in record. He had a great year with Dean Smith’s players. But as those guys left, he couldn’t restock. His lack of recruiting is why they went 8-20 shortly thereafter.

He was a lifetime assistant coach for whom Dean did a solid.

mattman91
03-07-2018, 08:34 PM
Record at UNC as head coach. Retired at age 60.

1997–98 North Carolina 34–4 13–3 2nd NCAA Final Four
1998–99 North Carolina 24–10 10–6 3rd NCAA First Round
1999–00 North Carolina 22–14 10–6 3rd NCAA Final Four

Seems like a good start for any coach at any program.

May have had a moral objection to all the cheating going on...

HereBeforeCoachK
03-07-2018, 09:08 PM
Because he couldn’t recruit. Notice that downward trend in record. He had a great year with Dean Smith’s players. But as those guys left, he couldn’t restock. His lack of recruiting is why they went 8-20 shortly thereafter.

He was a lifetime assistant coach for whom Dean did a solid.

Right, he was never really head coach material. He knew it, which is why he turned down so many offers along the way.

OldPhiKap
03-07-2018, 09:10 PM
May have had a moral objection...

Damn, weekend-quality humor at mid-week.

sagegrouse
03-07-2018, 09:38 PM
Because he couldn’t recruit. Notice that downward trend in record. He had a great year with Dean Smith’s players. But as those guys left, he couldn’t restock. His lack of recruiting is why they went 8-20 shortly thereafter.

He was a lifetime assistant coach for whom Dean did a solid.

Case in point. Guthridge didn't bother to recruit Jason Williams, conceding him to K, even though Jason reportedly had an interest in UNC.

By the way, Dean Smith basically forced UNC to hire Guthridge, his long-time assistant, when El Deano suddenly retired in October 1997, just before the beginning of the hoops season. Dick Baddour was the brand new athletic director, replacing John Swofford in June of 1997. Did Baddour resent Smith for forcing his hand and making him look impotent? I dunno, but it would be a very human emotion.

Anyway, Baddour blew it by replacing Coach Gut with Matt Doherty, whose career at UNC ended in a flaming heap.

Stray Gator
03-07-2018, 10:09 PM
I have no sources to verify this information, but my impression at the time -- and this belief was shared by others who follow UNC, Duke, and ACC hoops -- was that there was a plan in place, which contemplated that Dean would retire just before the start of the season, leaving to his long-time assistant Guthridge a well-stocked team and the role of short-term caretaker, with the understanding that the designated successor, Roy Williams, would be coming over from Kansas after a year, or two at the most. But Roy derailed that plan when he announced, to a stadium full of Jayhawk fans, that he was staying at Kansas. Since there was no Plan B, the powers at UNC then went through a rather uncomfortable search process for another head coach -- which became the subject of a famous "I Said No To Dean" t-shirt -- ultimately resulting in the hire of Matt Doherty from Notre Dame.

subzero02
03-07-2018, 10:11 PM
Adam Boone...

brevity
03-07-2018, 10:39 PM
Teachers & State Employees (TSERS) Retirement Program (https://hr.unc.edu/benefits/plans/retirement/tsers/)


TSERS is a Defined Benefit Plan, which means retirement benefits are based on salary, years of service and a retirement factor. The formula for TSERS is:


Average salary based on the 4 highest consecutive years of earnings
Multiplied by a Retirement Factor of 1.82% (set by state statute)
Multiplied by your creditable years of service



Head coaches make a lot more than assistant coaches. From a retirement benefits perspective, one might wonder why Bill Guthridge wasn't given a fourth season.

devildeac
03-07-2018, 10:42 PM
I have no sources to verify this information, but my impression at the time -- and this belief was shared by others who follow UNC, Duke, and ACC hoops -- was that there was a plan in place, which contemplated that Dean would retire just before the start of the season, leaving to his long-time assistant Guthridge a well-stocked team and the role of short-term caretaker, with the understanding that the designated successor, Roy Williams, would be coming over from Kansas after a year, or two at the most. But Roy derailed that plan when he announced, to a stadium full of Jayhawk fans, that he was staying at Kansas. Since there was no Plan B, the powers at UNC then went through a rather uncomfortable search process for another head coach -- which became the subject of a famous "I Said No To Dean" t-shirt -- ultimately resulting in the hire of Matt Doherty from Notre Dame.

Best. "u"nc coach. Ever. Should have been given a lifetime extension. (Andre Buckner asked me to post this.)

;)

Wheat/"/"/"
03-07-2018, 10:47 PM
I have no sources to verify this information, but my impression at the time -- and this belief was shared by others who follow UNC, Duke, and ACC hoops -- was that there was a plan in place, which contemplated that Dean would retire just before the start of the season, leaving to his long-time assistant Guthridge a well-stocked team and the role of short-term caretaker, with the understanding that the designated successor, Roy Williams, would be coming over from Kansas after a year, or two at the most. But Roy derailed that plan when he announced, to a stadium full of Jayhawk fans, that he was staying at Kansas. Since there was no Plan B, the powers at UNC then went through a rather uncomfortable search process for another head coach -- which became the subject of a famous "I Said No To Dean" t-shirt -- ultimately resulting in the hire of Matt Doherty from Notre Dame.

That’s pretty much the way I saw things play out too.

Roy is an emotional guy and found it to hard to leave the players he had recruited and made promises to at Kansas when the UNC job came up.

But after the Doh debacle, Roy was ready and his Kansas players also knew this time after his first decision to stay that it was possible he would leave Kansas for UNC at some point in the future. That made his second decision easier for Roy.

As for Jason Williams, I seem to recall Gut did recruit him hard, but as a 2g/PG combo to play with Ronald Curry.

JWill decided he wanted to mainly play PG to prepare for the NBA and chose Duke.

devildeac
03-07-2018, 10:53 PM
Plus:

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2003/apr/09/north_carolina_ad/

"His frustration came to a head after KU's 81-78 loss to Syracuse in the NCAA championship game. Questioned by CBS' Bonnie Bernstein on live national television about his interest in coaching North Carolina, Williams questioned her sensitivity and eventually said "I could give a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. about North Carolina right now. There are 13 kids in that locker room that I love."

burnspbesq
03-08-2018, 03:06 AM
Plus:

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2003/apr/09/north_carolina_ad/

"His frustration came to a head after KU's 81-78 loss to Syracuse in the NCAA championship game. Questioned by CBS' Bonnie Bernstein on live national television about his interest in coaching North Carolina, Williams questioned her sensitivity and eventually said "I could give a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. about North Carolina right now. There are 13 kids in that locker room that I love."

And many of us, I’d venture to say, still have the t-shirt.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-08-2018, 07:34 AM
Wasn't he also a pretty, uh, advanced age for a brand new head coach?

The program obviously needed a new, youthful leader, like Doh!

OldPhiKap
03-08-2018, 07:39 AM
Plus:

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2003/apr/09/north_carolina_ad/

"His frustration came to a head after KU's 81-78 loss to Syracuse in the NCAA championship game. Questioned by CBS' Bonnie Bernstein on live national television about his interest in coaching North Carolina, Williams questioned her sensitivity and eventually said "I could give a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. about North Carolina right now. There are 13 kids in that locker room that I love."

And to be fair to Roy, that was really the only appropriate response at that moment. I’ll give him that.

Ima Facultiwyfe
03-08-2018, 07:57 AM
I knew Guthridge and his wife pretty well. The saying that "there are men too gentle to live among the wolves" applied to him.
Love, Ima

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-08-2018, 08:01 AM
I thought this was going to be an open-ended joke thread for posters to fill in their own punchlines... a la “Why did the chicken cross the road?”

Where’s Brevity when we need him most? Does he respond to the bat signal?

budwom
03-08-2018, 08:09 AM
I will forever be thankful to Bill Guthridge for losing the Final Four game to Utah in 1998, a seemingly impossible task. He had Carter, Jamison, Shammond Williams and other veterans, a monstrous talent gap over Majerus's team. I think Bill also did some stuff like choosing a lineup based on the alphabet since he wanted to avoid some tough decisions...

And speaking of Adam Boone (yes, for sure Bill's recruiting was just plain bad, didn't he also get them Brian Morrison?)...for years before Duke built the giant new practice facility, one could frequently watch recruits scrimmage with Duke players in Cameron...saw a lot of great players...I recall how spectacular Jason Williams was, it was pretty clear he was a gargantuan talent.
Anyway...when Boone visited, I don't think he was able to even get the ball across the mid court line for his first three or four attempts, he was just horrible (the Duke players rarely cut visitors any slack whatsoever).
I was pretty pleased when Boone chose unc over Duke...nice kid, but not much of a hoopster.

fraggler
03-08-2018, 08:10 AM
I knew Guthridge and his wife pretty well. The saying that "there are men too gentle to live among the wolves" applied to him.
Love, Ima

I can believe that. When Casey Sanders was on a recruiting visit to both Duke and UNC, I got to tag along as a former high school teammate. Coach Guthridge was probably the nicest to me of all the coaches from both schools. Not that everyone wasn't nice, but he seemed genuinely pleased to meet and chat with me.

budwom
03-08-2018, 08:27 AM
^ yeah, Bill was a nice guy and his niche was being a very very good assistant coach.

Tripping William
03-08-2018, 08:30 AM
I will forever be thankful to Bill Guthridge for losing the Final Four game to Utah in 1998, a seemingly impossible task. He had Carter, Jamison, Shammond Williams and other veterans, a monstrous talent gap over Majerus's team. I think Bill also did some stuff like choosing a lineup based on the alphabet since he wanted to avoid some tough decisions...

And speaking of Adam Boone (yes, for sure Bill's recruiting was just plain bad, didn't he also get them Brian Morrison?)...for years before Duke built the giant new practice facility, one could frequently watch recruits scrimmage with Duke players in Cameron...saw a lot of great players...I recall how spectacular Jason Williams was, it was pretty clear he was a gargantuan talent.
Anyway...when Boone visited, I don't think he was able to even get the ball across the mid court line for his first three or four attempts, he was just horrible (the Duke players rarely cut visitors any slack whatsoever).
I was pretty pleased when Boone chose unc over Duke...nice kid, but not much of a hoopster.

For all his faults (vulgar, vulgar faults), Majerus (may he RIP) was an X's and O's wizard and had a week to prepare for the Heels. He went junk defense (triangle-and-two) for a stretch. And Britton Johnsen clearly got into Makhtar Ndiaye's head, resulting in the false allegations by Ndiaye of Johnsen's uttering racial slurs during the game. Majerus said he'd resign if it turned out to be true. Point being, Majerus coached circles around Gut that game, and between Andre Miller, Michael Doleac, Hanno Mottola, Johnsen, and Alex Jensen, the Utes (or is it "Youths"?) had just enough ability to overcome the clear talent disparity.

And, yes, Adam Boone and Brian Morrison were in the same class (bless their hearts, with a hat-tip to Ima).

budwom
03-08-2018, 08:44 AM
For all his faults (vulgar, vulgar faults), Majerus (may he RIP) was an X's and O's wizard and had a week to prepare for the Heels. He went junk defense (triangle-and-two) for a stretch. And Britton Johnsen clearly got into Makhtar Ndiaye's head, resulting in the false allegations by Ndiaye of Johnsen's uttering racial slurs during the game. Majerus said he'd resign if it turned out to be true. Point being, Majerus coached circles around Gut that game, and between Andre Miller, Michael Doleac, Hanno Mottola, Johnsen, and Alex Jensen, the Utes (or is it "Youths"?) had just enough ability to overcome the clear talent disparity.

And, yes, Adam Boone and Brian Morrison were in the same class (bless their hearts, with a hat-tip to Ima).

Good summary. I remember the second half of that game very well, because I couldn't get myself interested in the first half since I expected unc to win by a huge margin.
I had spent that evening having a fine dinner with our own Mr Stray Gator, and was driving back to our hotel in Gulf Shore, Alabama (quite an experience) driving thru some of Florida's
least populated terrain, when I summoned the courage to turn on the radio...what fun!

MChambers
03-08-2018, 08:51 AM
Adam Boone...

The late Neil Fingleton?

Tripping William
03-08-2018, 08:53 AM
Good summary. I remember the second half of that game very well, because I couldn't get myself interested in the first half since I expected unc to win by a huge margin.
I had spent that evening having a fine dinner with our own Mr Stray Gator, and was driving back to our hotel in Gulf Shore, Alabama (quite an experience) driving thru some of Florida's
least populated terrain, when I summoned the courage to turn on the radio...what fun!

That was a no-win Final Four for me. I suppose I could have stomached Stanford winning it all.

brevity
03-08-2018, 08:53 AM
Where’s Brevity when we need him most? Does he respond to the bat signal?

Oh, I’m not Batman, or even LEGO Batman. Maybe I’m like LEGO Barbara Gordon, except I went to the Harvard for Police of the South.

Before your bat signal, I posted my retirement benefits theory above, which was received about as well as most of my theories. Generally, I post no more than once per thread, unless the subject matter substantially changes or I need to clarify something (which I guess applies here).

I don’t have anything to say at the expense of the late Bill Guthridge, and even if I did, I would not feel comfortable posting them. To be honest, I don’t make that much fun of Dean Smith either, other than letting tiny bits of air out of others’ inflated sense of his legend and legacy.

I liked the idea mattman91 presented that Bill Guthridge was a bad fit for leading The Carolina Way because he was too moral. Funny, respectful, subtly points the venom in the right direction. Otherwise, the Matt Doherty angle is the correct approach, in terms of humor, and others have that handled. They are the humorists Gotham needs right now.

DarkstarWahoo
03-08-2018, 09:18 AM
The late Neil Fingleton?

Mag the Mighty himself!

CameronBlue
03-08-2018, 09:51 AM
May have had a moral objection to all the cheating going on...

That and he was tired of his players beating themselves.

UrinalCake
03-08-2018, 11:25 AM
I have no sources to verify this information, but my impression at the time -- and this belief was shared by others who follow UNC, Duke, and ACC hoops -- was that there was a plan in place, which contemplated that Dean would retire just before the start of the season, leaving to his long-time assistant Guthridge a well-stocked team and the role of short-term caretaker, with the understanding that the designated successor, Roy Williams, would be coming over from Kansas after a year, or two at the most.

That’s interesting. My understanding (as an outsider) was that Dean’s retirement was unexpected. Everyone knew he was close to retirement, but he did it with like a month before the start of the season which seemed like a huge surprise and not the way you would plan it. He said in a later interview that he just woke up one day and didn’t have the passion for coaching any more. So Guthridge got the job almost out of necessity and as a reward for all his years as an assistant, but as you said it was meant to be essentially an interim position until Roy came over. I did not realize that this had been planned behind the scenes.

Somewhat related, I have also heard/read that there is a lot of resentment among other coaches towards Roy in the way that he was groomed for the head coaching job at UNC. Others feel that he hasn’t had to put in the legwork to get there but was just handed the keys. Not sure how valid this is or whether it was just rumors and innuendo.

cato
03-08-2018, 11:52 AM
Somewhat related, I have also heard/read that there is a lot of resentment among other coaches towards Roy in the way that he was groomed for the head coaching job at UNC. Others feel that he hasn’t had to put in the legwork to get there but was just handed the keys. Not sure how valid this is or whether it was just rumors and innuendo.

Interesting. The thing is, Roy was already very successful at Kansas. Then he came back to Carolina and won it all with Doh’s recruits. And a couple since.

Roy has proven to be an excellent coach. Carolina is extraordinarily lucky to have had him waiting in the wings to surpass Dean.

sagegrouse
03-08-2018, 12:00 PM
Point being, Majerus coached circles around Gut that game, and between Andre Miller, Michael Doleac, Hanno Mottola, Johnsen, and Alex Jensen, the Utes (or is it "Youths"?) had just enough ability to overcome the clear talent disparity.

And, yes, Adam Boone and Brian Morrison were in the same class (bless their hearts, with a hat-tip to Ima).

I asked Bobby Cremins, and he confirmed it is the "Yoots," sorta like the former Terp, "Keet Boot."

Kindly,
Sage

Sir Stealth
03-08-2018, 12:12 PM
Somewhat related, I have also heard/read that there is a lot of resentment among other coaches towards Roy in the way that he was groomed for the head coaching job at UNC. Others feel that he hasn’t had to put in the legwork to get there but was just handed the keys. Not sure how valid this is or whether it was just rumors and innuendo.

I'm no Roy fan, but I'm pretty sure that when he was hired at UNC he had the highest winning percentage of any active coach (maybe even ever?) after his 15 years or so at Kansas, one of the top programs in college basketball. It's hard to get more highly qualified to take a head coaching job than that. His turning down the job the first time around sent them into a tailspin.

CDu
03-08-2018, 01:25 PM
I'm no Roy fan, but I'm pretty sure that when he was hired at UNC he had the highest winning percentage of any active coach (maybe even ever?) after his 15 years or so at Kansas, one of the top programs in college basketball. It's hard to get more highly qualified to take a head coaching job than that. His turning down the job the first time around sent them into a tailspin.

I think the point being made was that he was handed a blue-blood program (Kansas) without having ANY head coaching experience. Clearly by the time he took the UNC job he was qualified.

wobatus
03-08-2018, 02:11 PM
I will forever be thankful to Bill Guthridge for losing the Final Four game to Utah in 1998, a seemingly impossible task. He had Carter, Jamison, Shammond Williams and other veterans, a monstrous talent gap over Majerus's team. I think Bill also did some stuff like choosing a lineup based on the alphabet since he wanted to avoid some tough decisions...

And speaking of Adam Boone (yes, for sure Bill's recruiting was just plain bad, didn't he also get them Brian Morrison?)...for years before Duke built the giant new practice facility, one could frequently watch recruits scrimmage with Duke players in Cameron...saw a lot of great players...I recall how spectacular Jason Williams was, it was pretty clear he was a gargantuan talent.
Anyway...when Boone visited, I don't think he was able to even get the ball across the mid court line for his first three or four attempts, he was just horrible (the Duke players rarely cut visitors any slack whatsoever).
I was pretty pleased when Boone chose unc over Duke...nice kid, but not much of a hoopster.

Utah wasn't exactly chopped liver. They'd just beaten #1 seed Arizona (which was pre-season number 1) by 25 in the Elite 8. 30-4. Miller was a very good NBA player. Doleac was a long time NBA journeyman but a good college player, even Hanno Mottola played in the NBA. But sure, UNC was way more talented individually. Still, in fairness to Guthridge, he didn't shoot 1-9 from 3 like Shammond.

Tom B.
03-08-2018, 03:20 PM
The caliber of Gut's recruiting classes declined with each passing year of his head coaching tenure.

His first recruiting class (entered UNC in the fall of 1998) was Jason Capel, Ronald Curry, Kris Lang, and Orlando Melendez. At the time, it was a well-regarded class. Curry (who originally committed to Virginia, then switched to Carolina) was supposed to be a two-sport star, another Charlie Ward in the making. Didn't exactly work out. Capel and Lang had decent careers, but neither was good enough to carry a team. Curry was meh as a freshman, had a medical redshirt the next year (he'd been injured playing football), was slightly better the year after that, then didn't play basketball his last year so he could focus on football and the upcoming NFL draft. And Melendez never developed into anything more than a career benchwarmer.

The next year (1999) he got Joe Forte and Jonathan Holmes. Forte was talented and could score, but had attitude issues, and went pro after two years. Holmes never did anything beyond getting incessantly mocked for being named after a porn star. (Worth noting that Julius Peppers also walked on to the UNC basketball team that year.)

It was the next year's (2000) recruiting class, though, that was the real killer. Adam Boone, Brian Morrison, and Neil Fingleton. None of them ever amounted to anything, and they all finished their careers at different schools -- Boone at Minnesota, Morrison at UCLA, and Fingleton at Holy Cross.

When Doherty took over (the 2000-01 season), the team still had Forte, Capel, Lang, Curry, Peppers, Brendan Haywood and the man, the myth, the legend, Brian Bersticker. So Doh was able to put together a good season, until the team fell apart at the end. After being ranked #1 on February 13, the team then lost on five consecutive Sundays to Clemson, Virginia, Duke (the "It's over"/"Shane, run around and make plays"/"cheetah on the horizon" game), Duke again (in the ACC Tournament finals), and Penn State (in the NCAA second round).

The next year, Forte was gone to the NBA, Curry was gone to football, and Haywood was gone to graduation. The team was a hodgepodge of freshman (who, to be fair, would ultimately become meaningful contributors to UNC's 2004-05 national championship team -- Jawad Williams, Jackie Manuel, and Melvin Scott), serviceable but limited veterans (Capel and Lang), and never-ready-for-prime-time chair fillers who were forced into action (Boone, Morrison, Holmes, Fingleton, Melendez, and Bersticker). Results were...predictable. 8-20, culminating in a 60-48 loss to Duke in the first round of the ACC Tournament -- a game in which Doherty employed a desperation "stall ball" strategy in an effort to keep the game from being a complete blowout (Duke had beaten UNC by 25 and 29 in the two regular season meetings). Carolina held the ball until the last few seconds of the shot clock on every possession. There were even a few possessions where they had fast break opportunities, but pulled the ball out and started passing it around. Their own fans booed them. And it was glorious.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-08-2018, 03:24 PM
The caliber of Gut's recruiting classes declined with each passing year of his head coaching tenure.

His first recruiting class (entered UNC in the fall of 1998) was Jason Capel, Ronald Curry, Kris Lang, and Orlando Melendez. At the time, it was a well-regarded class. Curry (who originally committed to Virginia, then switched to Carolina) was supposed to be a two-sport star, another Charlie Ward in the making. Didn't exactly work out. Capel and Lang had decent careers, but neither was good enough to carry a team. Curry was meh as a freshman, had a medical redshirt the next year, was slightly better the year after that, then left to play pro football. And Melendez never developed into anything more than a career benchwarmer.

The next year (1999) he got Joe Forte and Jonathan Holmes. Forte was talented and could score, but had attitude issues, and went pro after two years. Holmes never did anything beyond getting incessantly mocked for being named after a porn star. (Worth noting that Julius Peppers also walked on to the UNC basketball team that year.)

It was the next year's (2000) recruiting class, though, that was the real killer. Adam Boone, Brian Morrison, and Neil Fingleton. None of them ever amounted to anything, and they all finished their careers at different schools -- Boone at Minnesota, Morrison at UCLA, and Fingleton at Holy Cross.

When Doherty took over (the 2000-01 season), the team still had Forte, Capel, Lang, Curry, Peppers, Brendan Haywood and the man, the myth, the legend, Brian Bersticker. So Doh was able to put together a good season, until the team fell apart at the end. After being ranked #1 on February 13, the team then lost on five consecutive Sundays to Clemson, Virginia, Duke, Duke again (in the ACC Tournament finals), and Penn State (in the NCAA second round).

The next year, Forte was gone to the NBA, Curry was gone to the NFL, and Haywood was gone to graduation. The team was a hodgepodge of freshman (who, to be fair, would ultimately become meaningful contributors to UNC's 2004-05 national championship team -- Jawad Williams, Jackie Manuel, and Melvin Scott), serviceable but limited veterans (Capel and Lang), and never-ready-for-prime-time chair fillers who were forced into action (Boone, Morrison, Holmes, Fingleton, Melendez, and Bersticker). Results were...predictable. 8-20, culminating in a 60-48 loss to Duke in the first round of the ACC Tournament -- a game in which Doherty employed a desperation "stall ball" strategy in an effort to keep the game from being a complete blowout (Duke had beaten UNC by 25 and 29 in the two regular season meetings). Carolina held the ball until the last few seconds of the shot clock on every possession. There were even a few possessions where they had fast break opportunities, but pulled the ball out and started passing it around. Their own fans booed them. And it was glorious.

I will send you the bill for my meeting with my shrink; you mentioned Kris Lang. Ugh.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-08-2018, 03:25 PM
I'm no Roy fan, but I'm pretty sure that when he was hired at UNC he had the highest winning percentage of any active coach (maybe even ever?) after his 15 years or so at Kansas, one of the top programs in college basketball. It's hard to get more highly qualified to take a head coaching job than that. His turning down the job the first time around sent them into a tailspin.

Yes it did, and for better or worse, some of my relatives, and their friends, and another friend from high school, are THE Money movers and shakers for the cheats. They had full assurances Roy was a done deal - the time he ended up staying at Kansas. These same people told me Butch Davis was happening before it was official too.

I don't watch any games with these people....

Tom B.
03-08-2018, 03:33 PM
I will send you the bill for my meeting with my shrink; you mentioned Kris Lang. Ugh.



You're welcome.



http://www.tarheeltimes.com/photos/unc_basketball_photos/photos/Kris_Lang_Poses.jpg




For a more pleasant memory, here's the cheetah in action:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om7y5MhhjXE

HereBeforeCoachK
03-08-2018, 03:57 PM
perhaps he couldn't tear his jacket in two....

budwom
03-08-2018, 04:40 PM
KLang deserves credit for inspiring yours truly to coin the phrase "in the truck," based upon a story he told about his commitment. That's right up there with discovering penicillin.

Chard
03-08-2018, 05:27 PM
...culminating in a 60-48 loss to Duke in the first round of the ACC Tournament -- a game in which Doherty employed a desperation "stall ball" strategy in an effort to keep the game from being a complete blowout (Duke had beaten UNC by 25 and 29 in the two regular season meetings). Carolina held the ball until the last few seconds of the shot clock on every possession. There were even a few possessions where they had fast break opportunities, but pulled the ball out and started passing it around. Their own fans booed them. And it was glorious.

Muhaha. Thank you for rekindling that delicious memory. I had forgotten about that game.

Good times.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-08-2018, 05:46 PM
Muhaha. Thank you for rekindling that delicious memory. I had forgotten about that game.

Good times.

Man, I hate to admit this, but I have no memory of that game. I remember some a lot older than that like it was yesterday - but not that one. What was I doing? Who was I doing? What was I drinking? WHOOSH right past me.

And I thoroughly enjoyed Matt D's 8-20 season....and Mike Brey has thoroughly enjoyed Matt's job.....

chris13
03-08-2018, 05:57 PM
Man, I hate to admit this, but I have no memory of that game. I remember some a lot older than that like it was yesterday - but not that one. What was I doing? Who was I doing? What was I drinking? WHOOSH right past me.

And I thoroughly enjoyed Matt D's 8-20 season...and Mike Brey has thoroughly enjoyed Matt's job...

Mike Brey looks like he enjoys himself. In fact his appearance suggests that he will be heading directly for a nightcap after the game or he came directly from the blackjack table leaving a mostly finished cocktail and a healthy tip for the dealer after a hot streak.

chris13
03-08-2018, 06:05 PM
8185

sometimes even more casual, like he came to the game after doing some yardwork and didn't have time to change.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-08-2018, 06:08 PM
Mike Brey looks like he enjoys himself. In fact his appearance suggests that he will be heading directly for a nightcap after the game or he came directly from the blackjack table leaving a mostly finished cocktail and a healthy tip for the dealer after a hot streak.

That sounds about right. I heard someone describe him as looking like a stock broker three vodkas into happy hour after a rough day of trading. He's had a good run...on the bench for the 91 and 92 Titles, front row seat to the Laettner game, and now having broken Digger Phelp's all time record at ND. His career has ended up better than I might've predicted.

JasonEvans
03-08-2018, 06:17 PM
I think the point being made was that he was handed a blue-blood program (Kansas) without having ANY head coaching experience. Clearly by the time he took the UNC job he was qualified.

Yes, Kansas was a big time program, but it is not like Roy was handed an automatic success story. Kansas was coming off a national title, which is huge, but they were a surprise national champ who had not even been a top 25 program during the regular season. They basically won the title on the back on Danny Manning (who graduated to the NBA after winning that title). The cupboard wasn't completely bare but it wasn't exactly super stocked either. Plus, thanks to Larry Brown's underhanded tactics, they were on probation. Roy took over a good program at a somewhat dark time.

His first year, they finished 6th in the 8 team Big 8. Then, they took off and won 25+ game for 9 straight seasons. Yes, Roy was handed a program with great tradition, but he deserves full credit for building it into what has consistently been one of the top few teams in all of college hoops since then. He was a longtime assistant at one of the top programs in the country when he got the job. If there are people who felt he was being handed a head coaching job on a silver platter, I think they were few and far between.

-Jason "now I need to go take a shower from defending Roy Williams... ugh" Evans

HereBeforeCoachK
03-08-2018, 06:21 PM
Yes, Kansas was a big time program, but it is not like Roy was handed an automatic success story. Kansas was coming off a national title, which is huge, but they were a surprise national champ who had not even been a top 25 program during the regular season. They basically won the title on the back on Danny Manning (who graduated to the NBA after winning that title). The cupboard wasn't completely bare but it wasn't exactly super stocked either. Plus, thanks to Larry Brown's underhanded tactics, they were on probation. Roy took over a good program at a somewhat dark time.

His first year, they finished 6th in the 8 team Big 8. Then, they took off and won 25+ game for 9 straight seasons. Yes, Roy was handed a program with great tradition, but he deserves full credit for building it into what has consistently been one of the top few teams in all of college hoops since then. He was a longtime assistant at one of the top programs in the country when he got the job. If there are people who felt he was being handed a head coaching job on a silver platter, I think they were few and far between.

-Jason "now I need to go take a shower from defending Roy Williams... ugh" Evans

This is all true....now I'm going to take a shower for agreeing with Jason while he's defending Roy Williams.....

cato
03-08-2018, 06:24 PM
Yes, Kansas was a big time program, but it is not like Roy was handed an automatic success story. Kansas was coming off a national title, which is huge, but they were a surprise national champ who had not even been a top 25 program during the regular season. They basically won the title on the back on Danny Manning (who graduated to the NBA after winning that title). The cupboard wasn't completely bare but it wasn't exactly super stocked either. Plus, thanks to Larry Brown's underhanded tactics, they were on probation. Roy took over a good program at a somewhat dark time.

His first year, they finished 6th in the 8 team Big 8. Then, they took off and won 25+ game for 9 straight seasons. Yes, Roy was handed a program with great tradition, but he deserves full credit for building it into what has consistently been one of the top few teams in all of college hoops since then. He was a longtime assistant at one of the top programs in the country when he got the job. If there are people who felt he was being handed a head coaching job on a silver platter, I think they were few and far between.

-Jason "now I need to go take a shower from defending Roy Williams... ugh" Evans

There is no shame in defending Roy. He’s a Cheat, sure, but not nearly as insufferable as Deano. And more successful.

devildeac
03-08-2018, 10:43 PM
This is all true...now I'm going to take a shower for agreeing with Jason while he's defending Roy Williams...


There is no shame in defending Roy. He’s a Cheat, sure, but not nearly as insufferable as Deano. And more successful.

Happy to throw some shade here:

Wayne. Walden.

DarkstarWahoo
03-09-2018, 12:32 PM
Two thoughts:


Mike Brey is a treasure.
Roy seems like good people, deep down, even if his record is suspect. He won a lot of goodwill from me when UVA and UNC tied for the ACC regular-season championship in 2007 (the fact that Dave Leitao gets to claim an ACC title will always crack me up) and only let his players cut down one net at the Dean Dome, then invited UVA to come and cut down the other.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-09-2018, 12:36 PM
Two thoughts:


Mike Brey is a treasure.
Roy seems like good people, deep down, even if his record is suspect. He won a lot of goodwill from me when UVA and UNC tied for the ACC regular-season championship in 2007 (the fact that Dave Leitao gets to claim an ACC title will always crack me up) and only let his players cut down one net at the Dean Dome, then invited UVA to come and cut down the other.


All UNC hate aside, living here in Western NC I know lots of people with personal connections to Roy who find him a dad gum swell fella.

PackMan97
03-09-2018, 12:52 PM
Record at UNC as head coach. Retired at age 60.

1997–98 North Carolina 34–4 13–3 2nd NCAA Final Four
1998–99 North Carolina 24–10 10–6 3rd NCAA First Round
1999–00 North Carolina 22–14 10–6 3rd NCAA Final Four

Seems like a good start for any coach at any program.

As spoiled as the cheaters were, those were one good season and two horrid (regular) seasons. They clearly weren't up to their usual standards.

22 wins in a season was the fourth lowest number of wins since 1970. The worst were 21 wins in 80, 90 and 96 and 22 wins in 74.

On the opposite metric of wins is losses, only three times since 1967 season had Carolina had 10 more losses in a season, Gut just had two back to back!

Not since Smith's first few seasons had Carolina failed to finish first or second at least every other year....and here Guthridge committed the unforgiveable sin of finishing third in back to back seasons! A feat the Carolina had not accomplished since 63 & 64 when they were 3rd and 5th.

Only three times since 1967 had Carolina finished with 6 or more conference losses and never in back to back seasons...and here Guthridge did it twice in a row!

Matches
03-09-2018, 12:57 PM
UNC really got a break or ten in the 2000 NCAAT. Their bracket completely fell apart. To their credit they did knock off the 1 seed but that was not a Final Four team by any measure. Take that improbable run out and Gut's record looks much less impressive, and a clear downward trend is evident.

My take was always that Gut was very good at teaching the game, particularly at developing big men, but was not a great in-game tactician and was a poor recruiter.

TruBlu
03-09-2018, 01:19 PM
All UNC hate aside, living here in Western NC I know lots of people with personal connections to Roy who find him a dad gum swell fella.

Do any of them play the banjo?

CDu
03-09-2018, 01:24 PM
Yes, Kansas was a big time program, but it is not like Roy was handed an automatic success story. Kansas was coming off a national title, which is huge, but they were a surprise national champ who had not even been a top 25 program during the regular season. They basically won the title on the back on Danny Manning (who graduated to the NBA after winning that title). The cupboard wasn't completely bare but it wasn't exactly super stocked either. Plus, thanks to Larry Brown's underhanded tactics, they were on probation. Roy took over a good program at a somewhat dark time.

His first year, they finished 6th in the 8 team Big 8. Then, they took off and won 25+ game for 9 straight seasons. Yes, Roy was handed a program with great tradition, but he deserves full credit for building it into what has consistently been one of the top few teams in all of college hoops since then. He was a longtime assistant at one of the top programs in the country when he got the job. If there are people who felt he was being handed a head coaching job on a silver platter, I think they were few and far between.

-Jason "now I need to go take a shower from defending Roy Williams... ugh" Evans

I don't disagree with any of this. But assistant coaches don't typically get handed head coaching jobs at blue blood programs as their first head coaching job.

Williams has ultimately proven to be a very successful basketball coach. At the same time, it is most certainly true that he didn't have to pay his dues coaching a mid-major before getting to a premier program level, which is extremely unusual.

jaytoc
03-09-2018, 02:02 PM
. But assistant coaches don't typically get handed head coaching jobs at blue blood programs as their first head coaching job.


So this may depend on what you deem blue blood and whether you intend to exclude from consideration assistant coaches who ascended through the ranks at the blue blood school that hired them.

Just thinking quickly, Michigan's Steve Fisher had no prior college head coaching experience - Not a blue blood program, perhaps? Unusual circumstances of his appointment as HC? Maybe so. Izzo had no prior college head coaching experience. MSU not a blue blood program? A matter of opinion. Steve Lavin had not been a college HC before taking over at UCLA. Bluest of blue blood. John Thompson had only been a high school head coach when hired at Georgetown - I'll kind of give you that one - he put G-Town on the map, it wasn't much at the time he was hired.

If only Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Indiana and UCLA are considered blue-blooded, your point appears more valid. But even there it's not absolute - see Steve Lavin.

CrazyNotCrazie
03-09-2018, 02:11 PM
. But assistant coaches don't typically get handed head coaching jobs at blue blood programs as their first head coaching job.


So this may depend on what you deem blue blood and whether you intend to exclude from consideration assistant coaches who ascended through the ranks at the blue blood school that hired them.

Just thinking quickly, Michigan's Steve Fisher had no prior college head coaching experience - Not a blue blood program, perhaps? Unusual circumstances of his appointment as HC? Maybe so. Izzo had no prior college head coaching experience. MSU not a blue blood program? A matter of opinion. Steve Lavin had not been a college HC before taking over at UCLA. Bluest of blue blood. John Thompson had only been a high school head coach when hired at Georgetown - I'll kind of give you that one - he put G-Town on the map, it wasn't much at the time he was hired.

If only Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Indiana and UCLA are considered blue-blooded, your point appears more valid. But even there it's not absolute - see Steve Lavin.

First of all, a long time assistant taking over the program he is already at is very different from hiring an outsider. And to this point, Lavin got the UCLA job because Harrick was fired right before the season started for violations and Lavin was the most veteran assistant (and I assume they thought he was clean). So it was a very unique situation.

I hate to potentially insult someone who I have a tremendous amount of respect for by comparing him to Bill Guthridge, but there are some similarities between Guthridge and Pete Gaudet. Gaudet was universally praised for his basketball IQ and was one of the truly nicest people I have ever met. But he did not do well during his brief tenure at Army. I will give him something of a pass for his head coaching time at Duke as it was a very unique situation. But after that, I think his hopes of ever getting a head coaching job were gone. But he was a critical part in helping Coach K build up the program in the early years.

Tom B.
03-09-2018, 04:01 PM
UNC really got a break or ten in the 2000 NCAAT. Their bracket completely fell apart. To their credit they did knock off the 1 seed but that was not a Final Four team by any measure.

I remember thinking when that bracket came out that the Heels couldn't have asked for a more tailor-made region to make a surprise run to the Final Four. First, they got a gift of a #8 seed that they probably didn't deserve. They also got a reasonably favorable location (this was before the NCAA went to the pod system) in Birmingham, Alabama, rather than getting sent packing to some more distant site. They beat #9 seed Missouri, then faced the region's #1 seed Stanford in the second round. Stanford played a deliberate, plodding style that made them the most upset-vulnerable #1 seed in that Tournament, and they were almost 2,000 miles from home. Sure enough, UNC capitalized, winning a 60-53 snoozer.

Then they got an overseeded Tennessee team (#4 in the region) in the Sweet 16. Tennessee led at halftime but frittered the game away in the second half. There's a reason those Jerry Green-coached Tennessee squads earned the nickname "Team Stupid," and it was on display in that contest, as UNC rode Tennessee's bad decision-making and 35.6% shooting percentage to a 74-69 win.

Meanwhile, the bottom half of that regional bracket disintegrated. The #2 seed was Cincinnati, which had spent much of the year ranked #1, but lost Kenyon Martin to a broken leg in the C-USA Tournament. Sure enough, Cincinnati lost in the second round to #7 seed Tulsa (coached by Bill Self). The #3 seed, Ohio State, also was upset in the second round by #6 seed Miami. Carolina ended up facing Tulsa in the regional final, and eked out a 59-55 win in another Valium game.

duke96
03-09-2018, 04:42 PM
Mike Brey looks like he enjoys himself. In fact his appearance suggests that he will be heading directly for a nightcap after the game or he came directly from the blackjack table leaving a mostly finished cocktail and a healthy tip for the dealer after a hot streak.

I've seen Mike around the bar, pretty late, at a few final fours. Not sure he was always with company, incidentally. In any event, he definitely looked very ... comfortable in that position.

weezie
03-09-2018, 04:52 PM
Do any of them play the banjo?

BWWAHAHAHA, really, standing ovation! Best laugh on the board today. BRAVO!!!:D:D:D

HereBeforeCoachK
03-09-2018, 06:41 PM
I don't disagree with any of this. But assistant coaches don't typically get handed head coaching jobs at blue blood programs as their first head coaching job.

Williams has ultimately proven to be a very successful basketball coach. At the same time, it is most certainly true that he didn't have to pay his dues coaching a mid-major before getting to a premier program level, which is extremely unusual.

Today it' probably would not happen. But it was a lot less bizarre at that time. He was not considered a surprise hire that I recall. And he had a long run with a very successful major program as assistant.