The Walk Up Line Disaster

[uh_no]

Those of you who were at the game may have noticed an oddity in filling the student section. With about 200 seats left, the section seemingly stopped filling for quite some time before filling up just before gametime. I knew something was amiss, and got some details at the game. Much of it is filled in by a line monitor in the chronicle this morning (who unfortunately wanders a bit into other issues, but understandable):

http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/03/its-time-to-kill-walk-up-line

Though not mentioned in the article, it's my understanding that Debbie K went out shall we say, straightened things out, and we can imagine thus a large part of the decision to "start letting groups in as fast as possible."

as largely observer to the situation, here are my thoughts

1) seriously undergrads...WTF?
2) the line monitors do a heck of a good job
3) I have no doubt that having the massively parallel 57 metal detector lines exacerbated the problem. "back in my day" there was a narrow cordoned off passageway that the walkup line would use to get from the corner of the parking lot to the door, meaning there was no area in which a large mob would have been able to congregate...and certainly no place where walk up students would have been able to "pass" tenters.
4) There is no doubt that the police escalated the situation by telling everyone to leave. you're not going to tell half a thousand drunk undergrads who had waited who knows how long to walk up to a game that their efforts were suddenly worthless. The point isn't to blame a decision made in real time, but simply state that it was likely a contributing factor.
5) the author unfortunately goes into some social issues with the walk-up line. That detracts from her point that the walk up line as it existed on saturday was a failure and should be eliminated. Such points can be discussed separately, but IMO are irrelevant here.
6) Clearly the situation as it occurred can not be allowed to reoccur. I don't however, think the answer is to eliminate it. The author doesn't provide any competing ideas either. I think, however, and I'm sure it will be done, all parties, from the line monitors, student leaders, police, administration, and Bball representatives need to have a think about what happened, why it happened, and what can be done to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Anecdotally, a "similar" mob occurred before the Duke Bama football game ~8 years ago. There was no planning for such a crowd going through the 3 lanes at the student entrance, and a dangerous situation ensued. It was actually the line monitors, who had no responsibility for football, who stepped up and helped control things. The solution to that problem was not to eliminate student tickets for football, but better crowd control. Fortunately (or unfortunately), student attendance is not usually an issue at football games.

So I can think of the following proposals, and If there are any line monitors out there, feel free to rip them to shreds...we all want the same thing in this case.
1) like P-checks being the weekend before to allow tenters to rest up (and not have to party during the week!), students in the walk up line before midnight day before game are "in" in the sense that they don't have to wait in line on game day. Maybe it's 1 day, maybe it's 2 days. dunno.
2) Again, I was not outside, but crowd control is serious business...perhaps police barriers containing the walk up line and preventing a rush would help, allowing a more limited access to the parallelism inherent in the security situation.
3) a protocol developed with police on how to handle situations. As I said above, given that students ended up in the game anyway, telling people they would have to leave almost assuredly did not help the situation. Having an empty section was not a positive outcome for anyone. It's understandable that such a protocol mightn't've existed previously, given they assumed the undergraduates to not be frickin' idiots. (and I know it's not everyone, and probably a small number)


Anyway, very disappointing...puts a major damper on what was a great game and major win.

[Neals384]

Outsider here, and don't know how the walk up line is supposed to work, but...if people are consuming alcohol, outside, in public, that has to be illegal or against campus policy, if not both. So how about campus police monitor the line and remove anyone with alcohol. You drink, you go home.

[uh_no]

Outsider here, and don't know how the walk up line is supposed to work, but...if people are consuming alcohol, outside, in public, that has to be illegal or against campus policy, if not both. So how about campus police monitor the line and remove anyone with alcohol. You drink, you go home.

Duke university is private property.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

What were some of the end results?
Were there less students in the game as a result?
Who do you think is most responsible?

Thanks for insight.

[CDu]

Outsider here, and don't know how the walk up line is supposed to work, but...if people are consuming alcohol, outside, in public, that has to be illegal or against campus policy, if not both. So how about campus police monitor the line and remove anyone with alcohol. You drink, you go home.

Duke is a private campus, so drinking in public is not actually illegal. You can't drink inside an athletics facility during a sporting event, but you can outside (so long as you are of age, are doing so in moderation, and have the appropriate identification:

"Duke University has established the following general provisions regarding alcohol on campus:

No kegs or other common-source containers are permitted on campus in private rooms, student apartments, commons rooms, or other public space. (University-approved bartenders, who will be responsible for carding, may distribute alcohol from kegs in public space at events.) Common-source containers, include, but are not limited to, trashcans, recycling bins, kiddie pools, cases of beer, and coolers.
Only university-approved bartenders are permitted to distribute alcohol on campus, including alcohol from common-source containers.
Except at events in a licensed facility providing a cash bar, no spirituous liquor or fortified wines may be served to undergraduates.
All students on university property consuming or possessing alcohol must carry a valid driver’s license, state identification card, military identification card, or passport.
Alcohol may not be brought in glass containers to on-campus BYOB events.
No individual may possess more than six cans at a BYOB event. Each can may not exceed 12 ounces.
Containers holding more than 24 ounces are prohibited from BYOB events.
No alcoholic beverages are permitted in first-year houses (or the surrounding grounds) on East Campus.
No alcoholic beverages are permitted within the confines of campus athletic facilities during sporting events.
The use of alcoholic beverages as a prize is prohibited."

[uh_no]

What were some of the end results? The biggest end result, I believe, is that several, shall we say "law abiding" students left at the order of the police when they rightfully should have been able to attend the game. I'm sure it could have been much much worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster

Were there less students in the game as a result? No. The game was full. All I know is there were empty seats, Debbie K went out, and then there were students coming in again. I'm guessing there was some amount of
1) 200 empty seats is not an acceptable outcome
2) students: cut it out

I'd love some insight of someone who was actually outside to what really went down, as the article glosses over it.



Who do you think is most responsible?


Canada.

Seriously though, I'm not going to touch that with a 32.5' pole. There are clear actions that every group could have taken to alleviate the situation. They are obvious in hindsight, but I'm not going to second guess decisions made in real time...so I'll leave you with this:


When you do a fault analysis, there's no point in assigning fault to a part of the system you can't change afterward, it's like stepping off a cliff and blaming gravity. Gravity isn't going to change next time. There's no point in trying to allocate responsibility to people who aren't going to alter their actions. Once you look at it from that perspective, you realize that allocating blame never helps anything unless you blame yourself

[HereBeforeCoachK]

All I know is there were empty seats, Debbie K went out, and then there were students coming in again. I'm guessing there was some amount of
1) 200 empty seats is not an acceptable outcome
2) students: cut it out

I'd love some insight of someone who was actually outside to what really went down, as the article glosses over it.



Good to know, and it certainly looked very full. I had wondered if Debbie got that part done, it was hard to tell.
Also, how many students are allowed in at most?

[uh_no]

Good to know, and it certainly looked very full. I had wondered if Debbie got that part done, it was hard to tell.
Also, how many students are allowed in at most?

I don't have exact numbers....but officially 100 tents with 12 tenters makes 1200, I believe reality is 1600 or so? that number is corroborated with my experience. 200 walk up groups at 2 people per group hits 1600 on the nose. That does not include 100+ for band/cheerleaders/dance/mascot and i think 850 or something grad students.

[bluesin]

I'm sure it could have been much much worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster :

While I understand the intent here was to point out it could have been worse I think this example might be insensitive, though I'm sure unintentionally. The Hillsborough disaster was one of the worst tragedies in sport, not just from the tragic loss of life but because of the way it was handled and how blame was initially and systemically apportioned. The proper modern inquests into the disaster unequivocally placed the blame on the police and officials and the Taylor report found the Liverpool fans were "not drunk, nor even the worse for drink". I think the students here would obviously not be found similarly. Hillsborough was and is a continuing source of pain for many people in Liverpool and even the accidental or unintentional suggestion that it had anything to do with alcohol is something I feel should be categorically refuted because that very position is one that allowed so many in positions of power to avoid being brought to justice. I don't meant to call you out or distract from the points you are trying to make but if someone reads the events of the walk-up line and just skims the wiki I would hate for them to miss this important context. And if anyone wants a better understanding of the Hillsborough disaster ESPN had a wonderful 30 for 30 on it. Justice for the 96; boycott the S*n.

[uh_no]

While I understand the intent here was to point out it could have been worse I think this example might be insensitive, though I'm sure unintentionally. The Hillsborough disaster was one of the worst tragedies in sport, not just from the tragic loss of life but because of the way it was handled and how blame was initially and systemically apportioned. The proper modern inquests into the disaster unequivocally placed the blame on the police and officials and the Taylor report found the Liverpool fans were "not drunk, nor even the worse for drink". I think the students here would obviously not be found similarly. Hillsborough was and is a continuing source of pain for many people in Liverpool and even the accidental or unintentional suggestion that it had anything to do with alcohol is something I feel should be categorically refuted because that very position is one that allowed so many in positions of power to avoid being brought to justice. I don't meant to call you out or distract from the points you are trying to make but if someone reads the events of the walk-up line and just skims the wiki I would hate for them to miss this important context. And if anyone wants a better understanding of the Hillsborough disaster ESPN had a wonderful 30 for 30 on it. Justice for the 96; boycott the S*n.

I'm full aware of the context and the 30 for 30 is extremely moving. I appreciate your clarification, though I think you miss my intention, which is to point out that crowd planning is essential and was lacking in both cases. The fact that the police tried to later throw the fans under the bus is largely orthogonal.

Anyway, the point is that crowd control is serious business to the degree that people can die if done wrong and this cannot be washed under the bus of belligerent crazies. If the crazies will be various levels intoxicated, the crowd control plan must account for that. The police response must account for that.

[dukebsbll14]

I wonder if this is in any way related to the fact that they only let the bonfire last for ONE bench after the game...As the first bench fire was dwindling down, we yelled for one more bench. One school admin and an A-team dude looked at us and just said "NO. We want to go home." Talk about a buzzkill...

[bluesin]

I'm full aware of the context and the 30 for 30 is extremely moving. I appreciate your clarification, though I think you miss my intention, which is to point out that crowd planning is essential and was lacking in both cases. The fact that the police tried to later throw the fans under the bus is largely orthogonal.

Anyway, the point is that crowd control is serious business to the degree that people can die if done wrong and this cannot be washed under the bus of belligerent crazies. If the crazies will be various levels intoxicated, the crowd control plan must account for that. The police response must account for that.


I didn't mean to imply I missed your intention, perhaps I should have been more clear in that regard. You make excellent points about the importance of proper crowd control procedures and the factors that should be considered when making any such plan. I think in the context of crowd planning you were and are absolutely correct. I simply wanted it to be explicitly clear that the point of comparison should be in the crowd planning. There was no parallel to drunken behavior in the Hillsborough disaster in case someone were reading about it for the first time. The suggestions of drunkenness have caused a lot of hurt and distress for those affected by Hillsborough and I just wanted anyone reading about it to be aware of that in case they didn't have any context.

[Bluedog]

One possible solution would be to not cap the number of tents...There is enough demand that would fill the seats, but I suppose it'd be mighty disappointing for some tenters to possibly be turned away at the end. Sounds like the police did not help in this situation and escalated anxiety and tensions. I am not as familiar with the new logistics/environment, though, but sounds like that many lines to get through metal detectors obviously is non-ideal. Bummer. Glad at least Debbie K got the police to agree to let more people in and fill the section.

[fuse]

While it would not be shocking to me if it were true, the accusatory “blame the fraternities” feels like lazy reporting.

Easy solution- take away the walk up line for the UNC game.
Doubt it is an issue other games.

[uh_no]

While it would not be shocking to me if it were true, the accusatory “blame the fraternities” feels like lazy reporting.

Easy solution- take away the walk up line for the UNC game.
Doubt it is an issue other games.

I commented on that in my OP...and I cut the columnist a bit of slack as he's an LM himself...and I think it was silly to try to tie what happened to the other issues, which probably DO exist, but are irrelevant here.

-tents are filled with frats too
-many LMs are in frats
-plenty of drinking and trashing is done by tenters
-tenters are getting plenty drunk in Kville the day of the game

The nature of the WUL being "don't know whether I can get in" I think is one of the compelling factors...along with the smaller group sizes (is it still 2?) that make it harder to manage than tents of 12.

I'm not sure taking away the walk up line is an easy solution. There will always be some wiggle room in how many people can get in. Spots can guaranteed only to the people who are actually guaranteed to get in the game. From a queueing theory perspective, you can only ever guarantee that a queue length is zero if the arrival rate and service rate are equal and non-independent. In this case, the service rate varies...and the only way to ensure that the worker (space in cameron) is always saturated (full) is by buffering (WUL). paraphrased: have empty space in cameron, have people who must wait for the game without knowing whether or not they can get in...pick one.

To continue a bit, we can assign some probability that the n'th person in line will be able to get into cameron. there is some stupid high probability that the 1200th person will be able to get in. After that, it decreases, and at 1600, it likely falls close to 0. For every extra person that gets added to a tent, the probability that they get into the game goes down slightly. If you go too far, you run into a situation where maybe they don't get in....which is a disaster too.

So anyway, the graph of peple that you can get into cameron looks something like 8176....so you need a buffer for that, we'll call it, transition range, to ensure that
a) you didn't promise anyone a seat who has a small chance that they won't get in
b) you don't leave a seat unfilled

Obviously the exact "capacity probability distribution" graph will be a bit different from the example, but that transition range definitely exists, and you can't fill it without a buffer of people who want to, but aren't guaranteed to get into the game.

[BlueDevil2K]

For every extra person that gets added to a tent, the probability that they get into the game goes down slightly. If you go too far, you run into a situation where maybe they don't get in...which is a disaster too.

That's not a disaster...that's how it used to work (through 1996-97). No limit on tents, but if you waited until the last few days to set up your tent, you knew you were running the risk of not getting in. The only reason that this changed was due to the construction of Wilson Rec, which necessitated moving the tents over to the smaller space along the tennis stadium. There was no walk-up line. When K-ville moved back, the tent limit stayed...I could tell the story sometime but it's too long for a message board. :)

Put another way, 2400 people are not going to tent for 6 weeks if you remove the cap. #1800 in this theoretical line is a Duke student - they can handle the math.

[uh_no]

That's not a disaster...that's how it used to work (through 1996-97). No limit on tents, but if you waited until the last few days to set up your tent, you knew you were running the risk of not getting in. The only reason that this changed was due to the construction of Wilson Rec, which necessitated moving the tents over to the smaller space along the tennis stadium. There was no walk-up line. When K-ville moved back, the tent limit stayed...I could tell the story sometime but it's too long for a message board. :)

Put another way, 2400 people are not going to tent for 6 weeks if you remove the cap. #1800 in this theoretical line is a Duke student - they can handle the math.

That would actually be fascinating if you ever have the time. I would read....and spork :)

[Dev11]

A group of fellow fraternity brothers and I was the first group in the walk-up line in 2009. We drank a lot of Southern Comfort over 4 days on the sidewalk, and at the end of it, we entered Cameron for the game without incident. I resent the author's attack on unspecified fraternities as the general bearer of all the problems here. The way he described it, the line monitors didn't have much control over the situation, and they could rectify it by administering the rules used for every other walk-up line throughout the season. For all the perks associated with the job, they should be responsible for such obvious contingencies as "large crowd of drunk college students."

[CrazyNotCrazie]

A group of fellow fraternity brothers and I was the first group in the walk-up line in 2009. We drank a lot of Southern Comfort over 4 days on the sidewalk, and at the end of it, we entered Cameron for the game without incident. I resent the author's attack on unspecified fraternities as the general bearer of all the problems here. The way he described it, the line monitors didn't have much control over the situation, and they could rectify it by administering the rules used for every other walk-up line throughout the season. For all the perks associated with the job, they should be responsible for such obvious contingencies as "large crowd of drunk college students."

What are the perks of being a line monitor - I always wondered how that worked? When I was at Duke (in the 90s) it seemed like a lot of them had friends save seats. Do they actually get seats formally assigned to them?

I don't know how the process works now but I think it has become overcomplicated. That being said, for lack of a better idea, isn't there an easy way to assign people places in line electronically? Everyone downloads an app, and gets assigned a number based on their place in line. Then if someone misses a check and loses their place in line, they get electronically moved from the list then everyone else moves up. Then you line up in numerical order to get in and it only lets people in in numerical order, so there is no risk of people in the back rushing the front of the line. If you try to get in before your turn, you either step to the side or get sent to the back of the line.

[BD80]

A group of fellow fraternity brothers and I was the first group in the walk-up line in 2009. We drank a lot of Southern Comfort over 4 days on the sidewalk, and at the end of it, we entered Cameron for the game without incident. I resent the author's attack on unspecified fraternities as the general bearer of all the problems here. The way he described it, the line monitors didn't have much control over the situation, and they could rectify it by administering the rules used for every other walk-up line throughout the season. For all the perks associated with the job, they should be responsible for such obvious contingencies as "large crowd of drunk college students."

I think the point was the frat guys that make someone wait in line for them, and then show up as if they are superior creatures because they didn't have to wait. That distain for those who did wait in line understandably causes friction.

I don't think anybody has a problem with people who actually spend the time in line or in the tents.

[unexpected]

honestly, the easiest rule change would be no groups for white tenting. Once you're in, you're in. You leave, tough luck. This would naturally let the white tenting line start forming only a few hours before the game.

On the flip side, you could keep blue tenting open for longer, to encourage people to formally register tents.

[Bluedog]

What are the perks of being a line monitor - I always wondered how that worked? When I was at Duke (in the 90s) it seemed like a lot of them had friends save seats. Do they actually get seats formally assigned to them?

Yes, the line monitors get reserved seats near the very front in between the baseline and center court. So, they get some of the best seats in the entire place (but not the ABSOLUTE best ones that are front row and in the middle). They may be rows 2-4 or something like that (and again not the exact center court ones), not sure exactly or if things have changed since my days. They dedicate a lot of time and effort and are fervent fans, though, so it's not like they don't deserve it. But they clearly get outstanding seats. Beyond that, it's just something they do for fun, to build friendships, have a "leadership" position, and since they'd be spending a lot of time in Kville anyways, might as well.

[Dev11]

Yes, the line monitors get reserved seats near the very front in between the baseline and center court. So, they get some of the best seats in the entire place (but not the ABSOLUTE best ones that are front row and in the middle). They may be rows 2-4 or something like that (and again not the exact center court ones), not sure exactly or if things have changed since my days. They dedicate a lot of time and effort and are fervent fans, though, so it's not like they don't deserve it. But they clearly get outstanding seats. Beyond that, it's just something they do for fun, to build friendships, have a "leadership" position, and since they'd be spending a lot of time in Kville anyways, might as well.

Some of us who think the line monitors tended to get too big for their britches may harbor the opinion that there are too many line monitors and therefore they take up too much prime real estate relative to their value added, but it's been a few years since I've had to stand in the undergrad line in Cameron.

[Newton_14]

I believe there was a similar issue with the Grad Student line. Right around the time the game started, I was down in the courtyard area in between the front of Cameron, and the front of the Duke/Nike Store, making one final desperate attempt to find someone that had a ticket they would sell me. There was still a large amount of Grad Students that were down the steps in front of the entrance to WW, that were being held back and not allowed to go up to the Grad Student entrance, which I thought to be very odd, but I trust one of you will educate me on that process.

Also, right around the same time, there was one hell of a argument going on between a female line monitor and a male grad student. To say things got heated would be quite the understatement. The end result was the guy not being let in. I never got an answer on why he was not let in, and when I asked him directly, he insisted he did not know why he was not allowed in. Meanwhile the guy's wife was also in the area (apparently planning to watch the game in the Duke Store like several of us). While I was asking the guy why he was not allowed in, she walked up and told him that she was not going to let this go, because "you paid $100 for that "ticket" and it isn't right for them to not allow you to go in". That statement actually made me even more confused, because I didn't think those guys buy tickets? Happy to learn the Grad Student process from one of you as well. Me being desperate to get in there, I asked the guy if he still had his ticket, and told him I would gladly pay the $100 to him for the ticket. He responded that "She (Line Monitor) took it from me and would not give it back". So again, me being desperate to get in, I go ask the line monitor (who was still really jacked up from the argument) and she told me that she "doesn't have his ticket", "we don't handle tickets". At that point I figured I had already meddled far too much into that situation, so I gave up on getting in, and headed to the Duke Store to watch it on TV.

Any input on how the Grad Student process works and any help on making sense of what I witnessed would be greatly appreciated and rewarded with sporks. Thanks

[Reilly]

... any help on making sense of what I witnessed would be greatly appreciated and rewarded with sporks. Thanks

Don't do it kids -- don't help the man in the van look for his puppy, and don't get involved in this craziness due to a promise of sporks.

[ns7]

Any input on how the Grad Student process works and any help on making sense of what I witnessed would be greatly appreciated and rewarded with sporks. Thanks

Grad students "tent" in September one weekend from Friday evening through Sunday morning. You can only miss one tent check. On Sunday morning everyone who makes it through is entered in a lottery. If you win you get a "ticket" card for the season. Most grad students form teams and share the tickets.

I didn't win the lottery both years in grad school so I bought one for the UNC game. They are transferable and you can get in as long as you have a grad ID or spouse ID to go with the ticket.

[uh_no]

I believe there was a similar issue with the Grad Student line. Right around the time the game started, I was down in the courtyard area in between the front of Cameron, and the front of the Duke/Nike Store, making one final desperate attempt to find someone that had a ticket they would sell me. There was still a large amount of Grad Students that were down the steps in front of the entrance to WW, that were being held back and not allowed to go up to the Grad Student entrance, which I thought to be very odd, but I trust one of you will educate me on that process.

Also, right around the same time, there was one hell of a argument going on between a female line monitor and a male grad student. To say things got heated would be quite the understatement. The end result was the guy not being let in. I never got an answer on why he was not let in, and when I asked him directly, he insisted he did not know why he was not allowed in. Meanwhile the guy's wife was also in the area (apparently planning to watch the game in the Duke Store like several of us). While I was asking the guy why he was not allowed in, she walked up and told him that she was not going to let this go, because "you paid $100 for that "ticket" and it isn't right for them to not allow you to go in". That statement actually made me even more confused, because I didn't think those guys buy tickets? Happy to learn the Grad Student process from one of you as well. Me being desperate to get in there, I asked the guy if he still had his ticket, and told him I would gladly pay the $100 to him for the ticket. He responded that "She (Line Monitor) took it from me and would not give it back". So again, me being desperate to get in, I go ask the line monitor (who was still really jacked up from the argument) and she told me that she "doesn't have his ticket", "we don't handle tickets". At that point I figured I had already meddled far too much into that situation, so I gave up on getting in, and headed to the Duke Store to watch it on TV.

Any input on how the Grad Student process works and any help on making sense of what I witnessed would be greatly appreciated and rewarded with sporks. Thanks


Grad students "tent" in September one weekend from Friday evening through Sunday morning. You can only miss one tent check. On Sunday morning everyone who makes it through is entered in a lottery. If you win you get a "ticket" card for the season. Most grad students form teams and share the tickets.

I didn't win the lottery both years in grad school so I bought one for the UNC game. They are transferable and you can get in as long as you have a grad ID or spouse ID to go with the ticket.

Unless the process has changed significantly, ns7 is spot on.

My GUESS is that the issue is that it is against policy (assuming it hasn't changed since I had one) to sell the ticket card for more than face value for any individual game (~20$). This was at least the case in 2016:


Season ticket cards are transferable to any other Duke graduate or professional student (including spouses/partners with a Spouse/Partner ID) for admission to Men’s Basketball home games. The per-game face value of a season ticket card can be determined by dividing the cost of the season ticket card by the number of home games on the schedule, including preseason exhibitions. Ticket scalping of any kind is against Duke University policy. Unauthorized resale of a season ticket card will result in deactivation of the season ticket card, potential disciplinary action from the seller’s graduate or professional school, loss of eligibility from all future Campouts, and loss of ticket purchasing privileges through student lotteries for ACC and NCAA Tournament competition.

So if they knew he bought OR sold the ticket for above face value (which $100 would almost assuredly be), the grad usher is correct in their action of confiscating the ticket card. It is unfortunate that he's out $100 and the original owner made off, but the only way to prevent scalping is to make it a huge risk for the buyer...as the seller doesn't have any risk anyway given it's the last game of the season. A similar action could be taken if the guy had a "borrowed" ID, given it's the last game of the season.

The other possible explanation is...


Season ticket cards guarantee admission to Cameron Indoor Stadium up to 20 minutes before tip-off. ...that he showed up within 20 minutes of tipoff, which is plausible given you said it was right as the game would have been starting, and the section was almost assuredly already full with walk up line participants.

Anyway, two plausible explanations.

[juise]

Some of us who think the line monitors tended to get too big for their britches may harbor the opinion that there are too many line monitors and therefore they take up too much prime real estate relative to their value added, but it's been a few years since I've had to stand in the undergrad line in Cameron.

Shots fired. You host a podcast with a former HLM. Maybe y’all need to have it out on this topic during the off-season. :p

[Dev11]

Shots fired. You host a podcast with a former HLM. Maybe y’all need to have it out on this topic during the off-season. :p

And in Jason's telling of ancient history, he was also a head line monitor, although tenting in the 80s was apparently much less organized. So, I'm outnumbered! I think we've come close to this heated discussion before on the show, but my old feelings have never truly boiled over on air.

[devilseven]

I truly do not understand why Duke uses this archaic neanderthal tenting system. Why not do a lottery. Or maybe even better use a point system with points given for attending various other sports such as women's basketball, football, lacrosse, baseball, etc. What are the advantages to tenting? There are surely many disadvantages.

[Bluedog]

I truly do not understand why Duke uses this archaic neanderthal tenting system. Why not do a lottery. Or maybe even better use a point system with points given for attending various other sports such as women's basketball, football, lacrosse, baseball, etc. What are the advantages to tenting? There are surely many disadvantages.

People would revolt with a lottery system because they think tenting gives the best seats to the most passionate fans who have dedicated the most time. A point system based on attendance of other sports is actually already in place to determine tent order when tents start at the same time. But, yes, theoretically they could do that and say just show up in line 3 hours before the UNC game if people really wanted to do away with tenting. The advantages to tenting are 1.) TRADITION, 2.) building relationships/sense of community, 3.) badge of honor/you can say you did it. That's at least what some tenters might say.

[uh_no]

I truly do not understand why Duke uses this archaic neanderthal tenting system. Why not do a lottery. Or maybe even better use a point system with points given for attending various other sports such as women's basketball, football, lacrosse, baseball, etc. What are the advantages to tenting? There are surely many disadvantages.

I doubt duke will ever go to a lottery. There is a lot of weight placed on a merit based system. It tries to assure that the fans that are the most dedicated, and thus likely most "crazy" fans get the seats closest to the court. Even the "white tenting race" which has some random component, allows you to have a significantly higher chance by organizing your tent well and having people in places such that you can get to most places on campus quickly. Want a wine and cheese student section? Do it by lottery.

Now, saying that justifies tenting is a false dichotomy. You point out at least one other proposal for a merit based system, namely attendance at other events. I think that idea has some...wait for it...merit. I'll get back to that in a second

One of the main problems, as I've discovered, is that there was a fixed starting point for WUL at noon (?) on wednesday. There are two problems with that
1) when you set a starting time, people will come out at that time thinking they have to be there in order to get in, when if you set no starting time, you would probably have fewer people waiting on their own at that time. They manufactured demand for the WUL starting at a single specific time on wednesday.
2) the starting time is far too close to the game anyway. if you have multiple groups that are willing to wait longer than that, how are you going to resolve the order? Apparently this was a major issue, and there was no protocol...causing people to form a line for the WUL...with no rules...which is always going to go wrong. The frustration for people "cheating" that line was a main contributor to the scene on saturday.

Anyway, as any economist will tell you, if you're going to artificially limit supply like that, you can increase the cost. In this case the cost is "how much you have to do to get a good place in line." If you don't increase cost, you have people tripping over themselves to get one of the limited supply. Adding some points system that says "WUL order for people ready at noon on wednesday is determined by points from attendance at previous athletic events." Increased cost. Lowered demand.


On a side note, tenting is something unique to duke. Contrary to assertions made here, it is not necessarily a huge detriment to academics if you don't want it to be. If you're studious already, you can be studious in kville (I am my own evidence for that, and could provide several other examples). If you are going to party all the time in K-ville, you were probably going to party anyway. It turns out sitting in a tent is boring and a perfect opportunity to get work done. I also had a great time meeting people I otherwise never would have...some of whom i'm friends with to this day. An anecdote I've posted before is "I never played beer pong with my professor during office hours"


So all together:
1) kville must be merit based
2) some of the rules that are in place are insane from a rational perspective, and a contributing factor to people feeling "cheated"
3) i know people who have tented have various opinions. I wouldn't trade that experience for anything...and if posters didn't participate, then I'm sorry...you really don't get a say as to the impact on students lives or the mission of the university. Students can make their own decision whether it is worth it to them. That being said, I would still like to see the system modified to one where students are less encouraged to skip classes in order to be in kville. Increasing the cost by some points based system and then using that for ordering for some later start date is one way to accomplish that, and something that has been used in the past (black tenting ordering) including, I think, a duke trivia quiz (which ironically, was probably MORE costly to students who likely spent a ton of time studying duke trivia than their actual coursework)

Edit: kville is also huge publicity for the university. Now whether students should be used as a publicity stunt, arguable. But the idea of having a bunch of tents out there, whether regulations relaxed, is not going away any time soon for this reason.

[PackMan97]

My knowledge is 25 years out of date (when I was in the Student Wolfpack Club at State), but we moved away from campouts, waiting lines, for the SWC in favor of credits for attending non-revenue sports and supporting the entire atheltic program. It seemed to work well. Those with the most credits, got the tickets.

Granted, this was just to sit in the SWC section which was mid court behind the announcers. Back in my day, no one had trouble getting tickets to the general student section :/

[devilseven]

Duke has difficulties filling the student section and regularly sells tickets in Section 17. When I started attending games, most of Section 19 was filled with students, as well as both end zone sections. There seems to be demand for only one game now. Its hard for me to see that one game is worth all the trouble.

[Bob Green]

Proceeding cautiously here seeing as I was never a Duke student so I have no direct experience with tenting.


What are the advantages to tenting?

Social interaction. Bonding. Team work. Camping out together for weeks certainly should create an atmosphere of pulling together in pursuit of a common cause.

My answer certainly isn't the only answer and tenting might not be the best system. One could certainly make an argument for the point system.

[-jk]

Proceeding cautiously here seeing as I was never a Duke student so I have no direct experience with tenting.



Social interaction. Bonding. Team work. Camping out together for weeks certainly should create an atmosphere of pulling together in pursuit of a common cause.

My answer certainly isn't the only answer and tenting might not be the best system. One could certainly make an argument for the point system.

C'mon! Even if you'd gone to Duke, you'd never have camped. I only slept out one night back in the early 80's; it was cold - peach schnapps was all the rage!

-jk

[DukieInKansas]

C'mon! Even if you'd gone to Duke, you'd never have camped. I only slept out one night back in the early 80's; it was cold - peach schnapps was all the rage!

-jk

Was that the 7-0 halftime game? I think I was in line for 13 hours before Uncle Terry came along and opened the doors 2 hours earlier than normal. (The doors to Cameron were actually unlocked so some of the time was spent inside.) I must confess that I'm not sure I would tent as it evolved. I guess it would depend on if I found a tenting group to join.

Never mind - you are too young. The 7-0 game was 1979.

[UrinalCake]

Line monitors strike back! They attempt to throw some humor by reading mean tweets about themselves from other students.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puz8fmK_9JU

[Bluedog]

Here's a follow-up article with more details:
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/04/total-chaos-duke-north-carolina-kville-walk-up-line-drunken-mob

Pretty big bummer that only 300 people ended up getting into the game from the walk-up line and fewer than 1500 students made it into Cameron overall despite demand that was much much higher. Somebody showing up at noon at Wednesday (when the walk-up officially began) for a Saturday game should be able to get in. Seems like there is plenty of blame to go around: 1. People in the line (of which fraternity members are called out in particular in this article), 2. Line monitors, 3. Administration, and 4. Police, who escalated tensions to the nth degree when they declared NOBODY would get let into the game (and which is why nobody WAS let into the game for hours, until apparently Mrs. K -- not mentioned in the linked article -- questioned what the heck was going on with the student section having empty gaps and not filling up. She was the only one with enough power to get that changed apparently. As it's impossible for an undergrad student to overturn the Chief of Police).

Bummer also that once they finally decided to let in walk-up line participants, they closed the doors at tipoff even though others were eager to get inside and had been waiting for 3+ days. I guess the line monitors had to get to their spots at that point though, but I'd think 5 minutes to let in 100+ more people would be a worthwhile tradeoff.

With all that said, I'm confident a solution will be found, the most obvious of which is to register the walk-up line participants earlier. It's really not that much added effort to write down people's names and spot in line a few times a day Mon-Wed. Probably would have taken 3 people maybe 1 hour each (per day) and would have resolved much of the line cutting, which was the foundation for the chaos. Certainly, people in the line also should be accountable and not escalate behavior, but having an organized, clear, and fair process would alleviate those pressures.

[dukebsbll14]

Here's a follow-up article with more details:
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/04/total-chaos-duke-north-carolina-kville-walk-up-line-drunken-mob



This article really highlights the real heroes of Kville..

"At one point during the festivities, a fraternity brother went up onto an elevated surface and “Stone Cold Steve Austin’ed” two beers."

"This time, the target was another fraternity’s beer pong table. The fraternity sent brothers on a mission to break it, attempting to use the “People’s Elbow” to do so. The move was popularized by Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson during his WWE years—he kicked his right leg up and threw his elbow down on his opponents' heart."

Aaand finally:
"That conversation was overheard by who the senior said was the rowdiest member of the walk-up line. He ripped the sign off the barricade and took a bite out of the corner of it."

[CrazyNotCrazie]

This article really highlights the real heroes of Kville..

"At one point during the festivities, a fraternity brother went up onto an elevated surface and “Stone Cold Steve Austin’ed” two beers."

"This time, the target was another fraternity’s beer pong table. The fraternity sent brothers on a mission to break it, attempting to use the “People’s Elbow” to do so. The move was popularized by Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson during his WWE years—he kicked his right leg up and threw his elbow down on his opponents' heart."

Aaand finally:
"That conversation was overheard by who the senior said was the rowdiest member of the walk-up line. He ripped the sign off the barricade and took a bite out of the corner of it."

So my takeaway from this is that rather than aim for perfect grades and SAT scores and great extracurriculars that demonstrate compassion and the ability to become a contributing member of society, applicants to Duke would be best off showing the ability to understand and apply professional wrestling moves? I think I will have my young son put down those books and start working on his big leg and figure four leg lock...

[uh_no]

So my takeaway from this is that rather than aim for perfect grades and SAT scores and great extracurriculars that demonstrate compassion and the ability to become a contributing member of society, applicants to Duke would be best off showing the ability to understand and apply professional wrestling moves? I think I will have my young son put down those books and start working on his big leg and figure four leg lock...

you can tell him about your great duke memories...like 2001 and all the great UNC duke classics...as well as some of those bad times, too, such as 2004 and 1998, when undertaker threw mankind off hell in the cell and plummeted 16 feet through an announcers table.