PDA

View Full Version : Will We Look Up And See A #3 Up There?



DukeBlue666s
03-05-2018, 12:06 AM
I’ve been rethinking this the past couple days. With the way Coach K has spoken about Grayson the past few days, I’m thinking there is a possibility! This young man has been through A LOT, but is clearly ending on a high note. Coach GOAT brought up the fact that he won’t have the pleasure of coaching anyone like Grayson again, as “good players will leave after one year” (his words). Do you think that will be brought into consideration when thinking about putting his number up there? I do, but I’m also a little biased considering my wife has a crush on him and we ended up naming our son after him.

I’d like to see that number up there ... he really has become a Legend!

(I thought we had a Grayson jersey retirement page, but couldn’t locate. Mods, please redirect if needed. )

InSpades
03-05-2018, 03:19 AM
I love Grayson... he's one of my favorite players. He doesn't belong in the rafters though.

Compare him to Kyle Singler... Grayson's Sophomore year was better than any year Kyle had, but Kyle's Freshman and Junior years were way better than Grayson's. They both had (well, so far for Grayson) slightly disappointing Senior seasons.

Fair or not (I'd say fair)... the tripping thing takes a bit away from Grayson.

To even get consideration I think Grayson needs to go win us another national championship. Even then I think it's a bit of a stretch.

If we lower the standards cause no one stays 4 years any more? I'm not in favor of this. Maybe we just won't even hang another jersey and that's okay.

I will say... if a love for Duke was a part of the criteria then Grayson would be at the top of the list. Can't remember another player who loves Duke as much as he does.

Devilwin
03-05-2018, 05:59 AM
I love Grayson... he's one of my favorite players. He doesn't belong in the rafters though.

Compare him to Kyle Singler... Grayson's Sophomore year was better than any year Kyle had, but Kyle's Freshman and Junior years were way better than Grayson's. They both had (well, so far for Grayson) slightly disappointing Senior seasons.

Fair or not (I'd say fair)... the tripping thing takes a bit away from Grayson.

To even get consideration I think Grayson needs to go win us another national championship. Even then I think it's a bit of a stretch.

If we lower the standards cause no one stays 4 years any more? I'm not in favor of this. Maybe we just won't even hang another jersey and that's okay.

I will say... if a love for Duke was a part of the criteria then Grayson would be at the top of the list. Can't remember another player who loves Duke as much as he does.

Agreed. Although he's been a great player, the tripping thing also does not help him. Glad we had him for four years, however. Wish we could have more like him.

weezie
03-05-2018, 07:14 AM
I think it's going up. Just have a feeling...

MarkD83
03-05-2018, 07:19 AM
I know that many of you have been in the upper lobby area of Cameron and also into the hall of fame wing. There are many displays of beloved Duke players whose numbers are not retired. I fully expect that something for Grayson (other than being part of the 2015 National Champions) could be displayed in these areas.

JasonEvans
03-05-2018, 07:31 AM
Has anyone ever been retired without being ACC POY or a 1st team All-American? Grayson was a 2nd team All-American as a soph and was first team All-ACC that year. He was 3rd team All-ACC this year. Not saying individual accomplishments are the main criteria, but Grayson is far far short of many guys who are not retired. Even if we win a second national title, it would be more than a little surprising if Grayson ended up with his jersey in the rafters.

SkyBrickey
03-05-2018, 07:35 AM
If he leads us to another national championship this year as a senior captain, I think it goes up. If not, I expect he'll be honored in other ways. Kid definitely bleeds Duke blue unlike any player I can remember not named Battier.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-05-2018, 07:52 AM
Has anyone ever been retired without being ACC POY or a 1st team All-American? Grayson was a 2nd team All-American as a soph and was first team All-ACC that year. He was 3rd team All-ACC this year. Not saying individual accomplishments are the main criteria, but Grayson is far far short of many guys who are not retired. Even if we win a second national title, it would be more than a little surprising if Grayson ended up with his jersey in the rafters.

Given the massive changes in the dynamics of four year players and the much-bandied about "requirements" for jersey retirement at Duke, I suppose an equally interesting question is whether we will see more jerseys retired at all. Barring massive changes in the NBA/NCAA relationship (which most of us assume as forthcoming), will requirements be relaxed in some way? Or will see a massive decrease in the number of jerseys in the rafters?

I would vote to not devalue those numbers already recognized by opening up the honor to less-accomplished players. I do realize others might disagree, wanting the honor to progress with the new era of players, but I am forever old school. There is a reason it is such a big deal to be recognized in perpetuity in Cameron Indoor, and I can't imagine a player hitting those goal posts in one or two years.

luburch
03-05-2018, 07:58 AM
If he wins a second title and is MOP of the Final Four, then his jersey will be in the rafters.

fraggler
03-05-2018, 08:04 AM
Given the massive changes in the dynamics of four year players and the much-bandied about "requirements" for jersey retirement at Duke, I suppose an equally interesting question is whether we will see more jerseys retired at all. Barring massive changes in the NBA/NCAA relationship (which most of us assume as forthcoming), will requirements be relaxed in some way? Or will see a massive decrease in the number of jerseys in the rafters?

I would vote to not devalue those numbers already recognized by opening up the honor to less-accomplished players. I do realize others might disagree, wanting the honor to progress with the new era of players, but I am forever old school. There is a reason it is such a big deal to be recognized in perpetuity in Cameron Indoor, and I can't imagine a player hitting those goal posts in one or two years.

I agree with your sentiment. I also wonder, though, what happens if someone does hit all those goal posts in one year. Marvin Bagley III already has ACC ROY and POY. He has to be 1st or 2nd team AA, with an outside shot of POY. If he brings home a National Title, winning MOP of the Final Four, he has to be considered, right (forget for a moment that his number is actually already in the rafters)? Would he get his name added to Ferry's banner? Not sure what I think because it usually takes a second year for me to start personally developing some emotional attachment to a player, and retiring a jersey of someone I barely know would feel weird.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-05-2018, 08:15 AM
I agree with your sentiment. I also wonder, though, what happens if someone does hit all those goal posts in one year. Marvin Bagley III already has ACC ROY and POY. He has to be 1st or 2nd team AA, with an outside shot of POY. If he brings home a National Title, winning MOP of the Final Four, he has to be considered, right (forget for a moment that his number is actually already in the rafters)? Would he get his name added to Ferry's banner? Not sure what I think because it usually takes a second year for me to start personally developing some emotional attachment to a player, and retiring a jersey of someone I barely know would feel weird.

Bagley is likely as good an example of a dominant one and done as we will ever see. I would still say that if Bagley averages thirty and twelve in the next ten games, his number doesn't go in the rafters. IMHO, a retired jersey cannot be earned in four months.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-05-2018, 08:20 AM
Bagley is likely as good an example of a dominant one and done as we will ever see. I would still say that if Bagley averages thirty and twelve in the next ten games, his number doesn't go in the rafters. IMHO, a retired jersey cannot be earned in four months.
Actually, MBIII’s number is already hanging in the rafters!

NashvilleDevil
03-05-2018, 08:29 AM
Singler is a top 5 scorer and top 10 rebounder in Duke history and won the 2010 Final Four MOP. His number is not in the rafters. As great as Grayson has been he should not be up there before Kyle.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-05-2018, 08:35 AM
Actually, MBIII’s number is already hanging in the rafters!

Touche

OZZIE4DUKE
03-05-2018, 08:53 AM
Bagley is likely as good an example of a dominant one and done as we will ever see. I would still say that if Bagley averages thirty and twelve in the next ten games, his number doesn't go in the rafters. IMHO, a retired jersey cannot be earned in four months.
Elton Brand is a two and done, NPOY and a National Champion. Until he graduates, his number won't be up.

But as far as graduated four year players with numbers worthy of rafter hanging, you've got to start with Jim Spanarkel, #34! First Duke player to score 2000 points, leader extraordinaire who started with a pitiful last place team his freshman year (my senior year, 1976) and led us to playing for the Natty in 1978. During Mike Dunleavy's junior year, I suggested to Nanerl, on the concourse of Cameron during a half time, that after Dunleavy's NPOY senior year, which of course never happened, that there be a double ceremony for #34 for MD and JS. She sarcastically said she'd "consider it".

I love Grayson, but he'll be in the Hall of Honors and not in the rafters. Too bad no one pays attention to the Hall of Honors. How many of you even know it exists or where it is?

LGD! GTHc! 9F!

budwom
03-05-2018, 08:57 AM
The only possible argument for it (since it would be inconsistent with previous practice, as many have pointed out) is that K can do whatever he wants. As a former CEO boss of mine told me once, "don't expect me to be consistent." Very much doubt it happens, but as Jason Evans would say, there's a non-zero chance.

Maybe K gets a wee bit more sentimental as retirement looms, and loom it does.

DukeDevil
03-05-2018, 08:57 AM
Elton Brand is a two and done, NPOY and a National Champion.

Am I confused? Elton Brand wasn't on a Natty team...

CDu
03-05-2018, 09:01 AM
Am I confused? Elton Brand wasn't on a Natty team...

And it still hurts.

CDu
03-05-2018, 09:04 AM
I think it's pretty unlikely that Allen's number goes up. He's not going to get that second All-America honor. He might get that second national title, which would at least make the debate interesting. But unless we win the title, there is just little argument for it to happen. As of right now, Scheyer has a comparable resume and is not in. Singler has a comparable (better in some ways, worse in others) resume and is not in. Smith has a comparable resume and is not in. Spanarkel has a comparable resume (no title, but better individual accomplishments) and is not in.

That said, Allen is almost undoubtedly going to be the last ~2,000 point scorer for Coach K. And he's almost undoubtedly going to be the last underclassman All-American to stay through his senior year for Coach K. So you never know.

But I would say it's REALLY unlikely that Allen will get there. And it depends entirely on whether or not this team wins titles.

uh_no
03-05-2018, 09:09 AM
Given that this will undoubtedly be rehashed from april through october, perhaps the discussion can happen AFTER duke is done actually playing basketball?

Sir Stealth
03-05-2018, 09:21 AM
It's amazing how much fans seem to want to dilute what it means to have a retired jersey at Duke because they love a player. There are many, many highly decorated, accomplished, beloved players who have come through Duke who do not have their jerseys retired. This is how it should be. We don't want the jerseys in the rafters of Cameron to be a joke like they are in the Dean Dome with all the mediocre laundry hanging down (and even UNC is much more particular when it comes to actually retiring the number). I really regret that we let Bagley wear 35 this year because I always felt that our retired jerseys meant more and were the superior tradition - would he really not have come if we didn't give him the number?

As others have pointed out time and time again, there are many who have not been retired who are much more qualified than Grayson, as great a career as he's had, or will have, even if he puts us on his back for championship this year. There are many other such players who were equally or more loved during their time at Duke. Grayson has had a great career, and I'm sure he will be appropriately honored in the halls of Cameron. But there is no chance whatsoever that his jersey is retired. Nor should we have retired Singler or Smith's jerseys, as much as they also served as message board debate fodder and we wanted to honor what they'd accomplished as they wrapped up their 4 year careers.

JasonEvans
03-05-2018, 09:24 AM
Given that this will undoubtedly be rehashed from april through october, perhaps the discussion can happen AFTER duke is done actually playing basketball?

https://image-ticketfly.imgix.net/00/02/53/96/43-og.jpg?w=650&h=365

Wander
03-05-2018, 09:24 AM
He hasn't been good enough this year. But I wouldn't be shocked if the "requirements" changed as the college basketball landscape changes, rendering all these "But Player X was better and didn't get his jersey retired" arguments moot. So, if we win the national title, I think it's going to be fair to debate.

Owen Meany
03-05-2018, 09:48 AM
Any discussion of great Duke players whose numbers were not retired would be remiss without mentioning Mark Alarie.


Any mention of Alerie would be incomplete without noting that his daughter Bella, never contacted by her father's alma mater, was Ivy League ROY and 1st team all conference after leading Princeton in scoring, rebounding and blocks last year. I could not find stats for this season, but did see that she started for the USA U19 squad. She also was in the final 10 for the Katrina McClain award for the NCAA top power forward.

fraggler
03-05-2018, 09:50 AM
It's amazing how much fans seem to want to dilute what it means to have a retired jersey at Duke because they love a player. There are many, many highly decorated, accomplished, beloved players who have come through Duke who do not have their jerseys retired. This is how it should be. We don't want the jerseys in the rafters of Cameron to be a joke like they are in the Dean Dome with all the mediocre laundry hanging down (and even UNC is much more particular when it comes to actually retiring the number). I really regret that we let Bagley wear 35 this year because I always felt that our retired jerseys meant more and were the superior tradition - would he really not have come if we didn't give him the number?

As others have pointed out time and time again, there are many who have not been retired who are much more qualified than Grayson, as great a career as he's had, or will have, even if he puts us on his back for championship this year. There are many other such players who were equally or more loved during their time at Duke. Grayson has had a great career, and I'm sure he will be appropriately honored in the halls of Cameron. But there is no chance whatsoever that his jersey is retired. Nor should we have retired Singler or Smith's jerseys, as much as they also served as message board debate fodder and we wanted to honor what they'd accomplished as they wrapped up their 4 year careers.

Ferry offered up his number - Marvin didn't ask for it.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20385370/danny-ferry-said-okay-marvin-bagley-iii-duke-wearing-retired-no-35-season

Troublemaker
03-05-2018, 09:56 AM
...I suppose an equally interesting question is whether we will see more jerseys retired at all.

To quote that Jeff Goldblum character from Jurassic Park: "Life, uh, finds a way."

It'd be funny if we, including Coach K, pretty much write off that a retired jersey can even happen anymore, and in 5 years, we're retiring Joe Girard's jersey. (Meaning, after one more season, we actually have such a player on the roster already.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1oBTkJMnig

It'd have to be someone like Girard. Someone who can really shoot and put points up (and thus garner media votes for awards) but the NBA isn't interested in because of lack of physical talent or other skills. Not predicting this will happen -- Girard isn't even committed yet -- just saying he's the player type that could thread the needle between winning awards in college and not being good enough to leave for the NBA.

Sir Stealth
03-05-2018, 10:21 AM
Ferry offered up his number - Marvin didn't ask for it.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20385370/danny-ferry-said-okay-marvin-bagley-iii-duke-wearing-retired-no-35-season

I'm not saying I blame Marvin for it. However it happened or whoever suggested it, I wish it didn't happen. It seems hard to believe that Danny was so plugged in and invested in Duke's recruiting efforts that he came to the staff on his own and suggested it; presumably someone on Duke's staff determined that the number meant something to Bagley and cleared it with Danny so that it could be offered. But even in a scenario where it was completely Danny's idea and "it's his number to decide what can and can't be done with it as he sees fit," I still regret it and wish he hadn't done it. it cheapens the tradition and cheapens all of the retired jerseys, not just 35. And as you say, Marvin likely didn't even ask for it and would have come anyway.

mkirsh
03-05-2018, 10:26 AM
Here is how Grayson's career per game numbers compare to several players who are in the "close but not retired" category (4 year players only)



Name
PTS
REB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
2p%/3p%/FT%
Awards


Allen
14.0
3.2
2.9
1.0
0.1
1.7
.492/.379/.834
ACC 1st Team 1x; NCAA Champ


Smith
13.4
2.8
2.8
1.0
0.1
2.0
.482/.368/.800
ACC POY; 1st Team AA; NCAA Champ


Singler
16.2
6.9
2.0
1.1
0.7
2.1
.479/.363/.773
ACC 1st Team 2x; NCAA MOP; NCAA Champ


Scheyer
14.4
3.6
3.1
1.4
0.2
1.5
.437/.381/.861
ACC 1st Team 1x; 2nd Team AA; NCAA Champ


Langdon
14.5
2.9
1.9
0.9
0.2
1.5
.489/.426/.862
ACC 1st team 3x, 2nd Team AA; NCAA runner up (still hurts)


Carrawell
10.7
4.5
2.3
0.8
0.8
1.4
.509/.360/.667
ACC POY, 1st Team AA; NCAA runner up (still hurts)



Note, modern era only, so I excluded Alarie and Spanarkel who many would put in this group as well.

I think Grayson fits well with this group (very similar stats to Scheyer and Trajan), even if he averages 30 a game and wins a second ring and MOP. He will be honored in Cameron, but just not in the rafters IMO.

scottdude8
03-05-2018, 10:28 AM
I agree with those who've said this discussion is best tabled until after we see how Grayson plays the last month of the season. That being said, there are only a handful of two time national champions in Duke history, the best of whom have their numbers retired. That would have to be seriously discussed.

Neals384
03-05-2018, 10:30 AM
I agree with your sentiment. I also wonder, though, what happens if someone does hit all those goal posts in one year. Marvin Bagley III already has ACC ROY and POY. He has to be 1st or 2nd team AA, with an outside shot of POY. If he brings home a National Title, winning MOP of the Final Four, he has to be considered, right (forget for a moment that his number is actually already in the rafters)? Would he get his name added to Ferry's banner? Not sure what I think because it usually takes a second year for me to start personally developing some emotional attachment to a player, and retiring a jersey of someone I barely know would feel weird.

we'll have to wait until he 🎓. No diploma, no rafters.

UrinalCake
03-05-2018, 10:31 AM
Has anyone ever been retired without being ACC POY or a 1st team All-American? Grayson was a 2nd team All-American as a soph and was first team All-ACC that year. He was 3rd team All-ACC this year. Not saying individual accomplishments are the main criteria, but Grayson is far far short of many guys who are not retired. Even if we win a second national title, it would be more than a little surprising if Grayson ended up with his jersey in the rafters.

He needs to win another title before the conversation could even begin. I love Grayson but jersey retirements are reserved for only the best of the best. Grayson didn't play much his freshman year and was injured his whole junior year. This year he has gone through a "slump" that has encompassed half the season. Sophomore year was awesome and if he had continued on that trajectory while staying healthy then he might have ended up in the rafters, but stuff happens. I don't really consider the tripping stuff to be part of the equation, but that's just me.

Now, if we win another title this season then that puts him in some pretty rare company of players who have won multiple titles. He might be the only Duke player to win titles in non-consecutive years. We could call it the Grover Cleveland Award. But as Jason said, even then it wouldn't be a guarantee that his jersey gets retired.

Stray Gator
03-05-2018, 10:35 AM
Here is how Grayson's career per game numbers compare to several players who are in the "close but not retired" category (4 year players only)



Name
PTS
REB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
2p%/3p%/FT%
Awards


Allen
14.0
3.2
2.9
1.0
0.1
1.7
.492/.379/.834
ACC 1st Team 1x; NCAA Champ


Smith
13.4
2.8
2.8
1.0
0.1
2.0
.482/.368/.800
ACC POY; 1st Team AA; NCAA Champ


Singler
16.2
6.9
2.0
1.1
0.7
2.1
.479/.363/.773
ACC 1st Team 2x; NCAA MOP; NCAA Champ


Scheyer
14.4
3.6
3.1
1.4
0.2
1.5
.437/.381/.861
ACC 1st Team 1x; 2nd Team AA; NCAA Champ


Langdon
14.5
2.9
1.9
0.9
0.2
1.5
.489/.426/.862
ACC 1st team 3x, 2nd Team AA; NCAA runner up (still hurts)


Carrawell
10.7
4.5
2.3
0.8
0.8
1.4
.509/.360/.667
ACC POY, 1st Team AA; NCAA runner up (still hurts)



Note, modern era only, so I excluded Alarie and Spanarkel who many would put in this group as well.

I think Grayson fits well with this group (very similar stats to Scheyer and Trajan), even if he averages 30 a game and wins a second ring and MOP. He will be honored in Cameron, but just not in the rafters IMO.

If we're going to discuss former players who might deserve consideration for jersey retirement, I suggest adding Bob Verga's numbers to that chart and see how his body of work compares -- even discounting the fact that at least 20-25% of his field goals would have been three-pointers under the current rules.

Eternal Outlaw
03-05-2018, 10:41 AM
I love Grayson... he's one of my favorite players. He doesn't belong in the rafters though.

Compare him to Kyle Singler... Grayson's Sophomore year was better than any year Kyle had, but Kyle's Freshman and Junior years were way better than Grayson's. They both had (well, so far for Grayson) slightly disappointing Senior seasons.

Fair or not (I'd say fair)... the tripping thing takes a bit away from Grayson.

To even get consideration I think Grayson needs to go win us another national championship. Even then I think it's a bit of a stretch.

If we lower the standards cause no one stays 4 years any more? I'm not in favor of this. Maybe we just won't even hang another jersey and that's okay.

I will say... if a love for Duke was a part of the criteria then Grayson would be at the top of the list. Can't remember another player who loves Duke as much as he does.

I'm not saying I think Grayson should be up there but I don't think comparing him to Kyle is fair at all. That is a very apples and oranges feel to me.

Kyle and Nolan got to be part of the old school build a team up and grow together model before we got to one and done re-tool the team each year model. They arrived to help a team that went 22-11 (8-8) and got to grow together for 4 years.

Grayson on the other hand has really had to play on 4 drastically different teams.

09-10 title team had a starting line-up of guys who had 3 years together and knew every tendency and move each would make.

Grayson hasn't had that level of continuity. Two years with Matt as a starter, Luke played heavy minutes for two years but didn't start most of the freshman year. He's basically had to grown from scratch with a new team for 4 years, that's a lot tougher to do than grow over 3-4 years with the same guys.

I'm fine if we never hang another jersey but if Grayson for some reason gets up there, I won't be advocating for anyone else including Kyle to be put up there just because if you compare stats/accolades they seem to have more. Not everything was done in the same circumstances. Kyle's was done in the old steady model, Grayson has the new chaotic year to year model. One's harder than the other (think Kyle gets the same stats if he had to play with Okafor, Winslow, Tyus, Ingram, Tatum, Bagley, Kennard, Trent, Carter over that span rather than just 11 games of Kyrie?) and while you don't take points from Kyle from not having to do it, you certainly can add some to Grayson if you'd like for level of difficultly.

kAzE
03-05-2018, 10:41 AM
I think it's pretty unlikely that Allen's number goes up. He's not going to get that second All-America honor. He might get that second national title, which would at least make the debate interesting. But unless we win the title, there is just little argument for it to happen. As of right now, Scheyer has a comparable resume and is not in. Singler has a comparable (better in some ways, worse in others) resume and is not in. Smith has a comparable resume and is not in. Spanarkel has a comparable resume (no title, but better individual accomplishments) and is not in.

That said, Allen is almost undoubtedly going to be the last ~2,000 point scorer for Coach K. And he's almost undoubtedly going to be the last underclassman All-American to stay through his senior year for Coach K. So you never know.

But I would say it's REALLY unlikely that Allen will get there. And it depends entirely on whether or not this team wins titles.

That's a sobering thought . . . but very likely true. I'll still hold out hope for this Girard kid being the last one. Coach K looks like he's got 4 more good years in him :)

Sir Stealth
03-05-2018, 10:43 AM
If we're going to discuss former players who might deserve consideration for jersey retirement, I suggest adding Bob Verga's numbers to that chart and see how his body of work compares -- even discounting the fact that at least 20-25% of his field goals would have been three-pointers under the current rules.

I agree Verga is probably most deserving of all those unretired. The good news is that his 11 actually does hang in the rafters and (hopefully) won't be worn again. So we can pretend that both "Bobs" are covered on that one. I wouldn't be surprised if Hurley''s presence actually factored into whether to retire Verga during the retroactive retirements of Heyman and Mullins in the early 90s.

gotoguy
03-05-2018, 10:52 AM
"Note, modern era only, so I excluded Alarie and Spanarkel who many would put in this group as well."



I resemble that having graduated in 1976 and observing Jimmy up close and in person.

I thought the modern era started when they abandoned the jump ball after every made basket. Or was it when Hank Luisetti or Ken Sailors invented the jump shot?


GTHC GTH

Dukehky
03-05-2018, 10:59 AM
Several more deserving players than Grayson. Don't let the recency bias get you.

He hasn't met the requirements. He won't meet the requirements (MOP at the Final Four does not meet it). Also, I don't care about the "tripping." I maintain that it was leg touching. James Harden grabbed Paul George's foot last year as he ran down the court, and no one cared. Christian Wilkins grabbed somebody's crotch on the football field. No one actually cares about Grayson's stuff, they are just looking for an excuse.

Love the kid, but no. Look at the numbers up there. Grayson isn't in the same stratosphere as those guys.

If we decide to keep the graduation requirement, I don't think we'll see another number go up, and that is OKAY!

kmspeaks
03-05-2018, 11:40 AM
It's amazing how much fans seem to want to dilute what it means to have a retired jersey at Duke because they love a player. There are many, many highly decorated, accomplished, beloved players who have come through Duke who do not have their jerseys retired. This is how it should be. We don't want the jerseys in the rafters of Cameron to be a joke like they are in the Dean Dome with all the mediocre laundry hanging down (and even UNC is much more particular when it comes to actually retiring the number). I really regret that we let Bagley wear 35 this year because I always felt that our retired jerseys meant more and were the superior tradition - would he really not have come if we didn't give him the number?

As others have pointed out time and time again, there are many who have not been retired who are much more qualified than Grayson, as great a career as he's had, or will have, even if he puts us on his back for championship this year. There are many other such players who were equally or more loved during their time at Duke. Grayson has had a great career, and I'm sure he will be appropriately honored in the halls of Cameron. But there is no chance whatsoever that his jersey is retired. Nor should we have retired Singler or Smith's jerseys, as much as they also served as message board debate fodder and we wanted to honor what they'd accomplished as they wrapped up their 4 year careers.


Several more deserving players than Grayson. Don't let the recency bias get you.

He hasn't met the requirements. He won't meet the requirements (MOP at the Final Four does not meet it). Also, I don't care about the "tripping." I maintain that it was leg touching. James Harden grabbed Paul George's foot last year as he ran down the court, and no one cared. Christian Wilkins grabbed somebody's crotch on the football field. No one actually cares about Grayson's stuff, they are just looking for an excuse.

Love the kid, but no. Look at the numbers up there. Grayson isn't in the same stratosphere as those guys.

If we decide to keep the graduation requirement, I don't think we'll see another number go up, and that is OKAY!

Spot on here. Grayson Allen has been a fantastic player and I have loved watching him play for 4 years. At a lot of other schools in the country he would be a no-brainer for jersey retirement, but not at Duke. Cameron might not be a tall building but the standards for hanging your number up there are extremely high and I think they should stay that way.

Wander
03-05-2018, 11:48 AM
He hasn't met the requirements. He won't meet the requirements (MOP at the Final Four does not meet it).

Shelden Williams didn't meet the requirements, and so the requirements changed, and we all pretended that we knew all along that Defensive Player of the Year counted as a NPOY award. That type of thing could happen again.

But, I think it's only worth debating if we win a national title this year.

mkirsh
03-05-2018, 11:55 AM
"Note, modern era only, so I excluded Alarie and Spanarkel who many would put in this group as well."



I resemble that having graduated in 1976 and observing Jimmy up close and in person.

I thought the modern era started when they abandoned the jump ball after every made basket. Or was it when Hank Luisetti or Ken Sailors invented the jump shot?


GTHC GTH

I'm defining the modern era as post 3pt line (and, more selfishly, when I started watching Duke hoops :))

BandAlum83
03-05-2018, 12:06 PM
If he wins a second title and is MOP of the Final Four, then his jersey will be in the rafters.

In the post game, K also stressed that Grayson is a 4-time academic all ACC. I almost got the feeling he was putting an alternative criterion out there.

How many of the other contenders such as Kyle and Nolan also have that on the resume?

Academics is important in the new reality of some players at other "schools" not having to go to class or do work.

It could be a statement

UrinalCake
03-05-2018, 12:07 PM
we'll have to wait until he 🎓. No diploma, no rafters.

I thought he already graduated last year.

ndkjr70
03-05-2018, 12:15 PM
A national championship this year and I’ll say 70% yes. A national championship and an MOP this year and I’ll say 100% yes.

An ACC championship OR a final-four I’ll say 50% yes.

Anything short of that and I think you hold #3 against Singler’s #12 and he comes up pretty darn short.

BandAlum83
03-05-2018, 12:18 PM
To quote that Jeff Goldblum character from Jurassic Park: "Life, uh, finds a way."

It'd be funny if we, including Coach K, pretty much write off that a retired jersey can even happen anymore, and in 5 years, we're retiring Joe Girard's jersey. (Meaning, after one more season, we actually have such a player on the roster already.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1oBTkJMnig

It'd have to be someone like Girard. Someone who can really shoot and put points up (and thus garner media votes for awards) but the NBA isn't interested in because of lack of physical talent or other skills. Not predicting this will happen -- Girard isn't even committed yet -- just saying he's the player type that could thread the needle between winning awards in college and not being good enough to leave for the NBA.

That's a lot of points, for sure, but can he come off a screen for a quick catch and shoot 3?? ;)

kako
03-05-2018, 12:19 PM
First and foremost, K can do what he wants. If he wants Allen's number retired, it will be retired.

However IMO if you have standards, ideally you keep those standards. Retiring numbers should be treated like the Hall of Fame - not the Hall of Very, Very Good (got that from a sportsyak guy somewhere). If it takes POY to do so, then it does so.

Not taking away anything from Allen, but I would expect to see the following jerseys go up if his goes up:

Spanarkel
Verga
Singler

Admittedly, I was a Duke fan when I was a kid. So I idolized Spanarkel, and I was him each time I threw up a shot or FT in my driveway. First team AA. Academic AA. All-ACC. All-Tourney (ACC and NCAA). First Devil to 2000 points (no 3pt shot). Rookie of the year. 3x Duke MVP. Etc, etc. I respect the criteria to be a National POY to have a jersey retired. But if that's lifted, then I'm the chair of the Spanarkel jersey retirement drive.

It would also be very cool to retire his jersey then hear him doing games in the tourney on CBS. People could hate Duke even more when they find out he's one of us and have been listening to him all these years!

BandAlum83
03-05-2018, 12:23 PM
Here is how Grayson's career per game numbers compare to several players who are in the "close but not retired" category (4 year players only)



Name
PTS
REB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
2p%/3p%/FT%
Awards


Allen
14.0
3.2
2.9
1.0
0.1
1.7
.492/.379/.834
ACC 1st Team 1x; NCAA Champ


Smith
13.4
2.8
2.8
1.0
0.1
2.0
.482/.368/.800
ACC POY; 1st Team AA; NCAA Champ


Singler
16.2
6.9
2.0
1.1
0.7
2.1
.479/.363/.773
ACC 1st Team 2x; NCAA MOP; NCAA Champ


Scheyer
14.4
3.6
3.1
1.4
0.2
1.5
.437/.381/.861
ACC 1st Team 1x; 2nd Team AA; NCAA Champ


Langdon
14.5
2.9
1.9
0.9
0.2
1.5
.489/.426/.862
ACC 1st team 3x, 2nd Team AA; NCAA runner up (still hurts)


Carrawell
10.7
4.5
2.3
0.8
0.8
1.4
.509/.360/.667
ACC POY, 1st Team AA; NCAA runner up (still hurts)



Note, modern era only, so I excluded Alarie and Spanarkel who many would put in this group as well.

I think Grayson fits well with this group (very similar stats to Scheyer and Trajan), even if he averages 30 a game and wins a second ring and MOP. He will be honored in Cameron, but just not in the rafters IMO.

OUCH!! Alarie graduated in '86. I guess I'm a relic.

BandAlum83
03-05-2018, 12:25 PM
I agree with those who've said this discussion is best tabled until after we see how Grayson plays the last month of the season. That being said, there are only a handful of two time national champions in Duke history, the best of whom have their numbers retired. That would have to be seriously discussed.

And it's not like Grayson didn't have much contribution to the 2015 Natty. Arguably, we wouldn't have won it without him.

jimsumner
03-05-2018, 12:28 PM
We've had this discussion so many times over the years, that I think I can type my response while asleep.

But Allen can't be discussed without looking at the context. Retiring his jersey means leap-frogging him over everyone else whose jersey has not been retired.

Why would Allen jump the line ahead of Bob Verga, three-time first-team All-ACC, two-time consensus first-team All-American, ACC's leading scorer in 1967, third-leading scorer in ppg (22.0) in Duke history?

Randy Denton averaged 19.7 points and 12.7 rebounds over three years. Jack Marin, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Kyle Singler. Did you know that Trajan Langdon was first-team All-ACC three times? Allen was once. Steve Vacendak, Chris Carrawell and Nolan Smith were ACC POY and none left early.

I've probably written as many words about Allen as anybody and most of them have been positive. He's been a key player at Duke and his ability to overcome the chaff in his life is very commendable. He's the heartbeat of this team.

But in the context of Duke's long and distinguished basketball history, I cannot see Allen meeting the necessarily rigorous jersey-retirement threshold.

Dukehky
03-05-2018, 04:07 PM
Shelden Williams didn't meet the requirements, and so the requirements changed, and we all pretended that we knew all along that Defensive Player of the Year counted as a NPOY award. That type of thing could happen again.

But, I think it's only worth debating if we win a national title this year.

Shelden Williams was Consensus First Team All America and a back to back NDPOY. I'd say that counts as significant national recognition.

What has Grayson done that even comes close to that on the basketball court.

Again, he's been a really good player for Duke, but he's not on that kind of level.

rsvman
03-05-2018, 04:17 PM
If he wins a second title and is MOP of the Final Four, then his jersey will be in the rafters.

My thoughts exactly.

Dev11
03-05-2018, 04:36 PM
Shelden Williams was Consensus First Team All America and a back to back NDPOY. I'd say that counts as significant national recognition.

Psst...if we're just talking about national recognition regardless of postseason success, which is all we've ever heard matters for jersey retirement along with graduation, Shelden Williams has basically the same resume as Grant Hill. Shelden has two NDPOY awards and one consensus All-American honor (first team), and Grant has one NDPOY award and two consensus All-American honors (first and second team). Again, there's no "arguably best player on a national championship team with some national recognition" category, because if there was, some combination of Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, or Kyle Singler should be in the rafters.

I think it's impossible at this point for Grayson to end up in the rafters, unless that idea about academic honors comes into play, which would be a weird thing for Coach K to insert after nearly 40 years on the job.

camion
03-05-2018, 04:59 PM
Psst...if we're just talking about national recognition regardless of postseason success, which is all we've ever heard matters for jersey retirement along with graduation, Shelden Williams has basically the same resume as Grant Hill. Shelden has two NDPOY awards and one consensus All-American honor (first team), and Grant has one NDPOY award and two consensus All-American honors (first and second team). Again, there's no "arguably best player on a national championship team with some national recognition" category, because if there was, some combination of Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, or Kyle Singler should be in the rafters.

I think it's impossible at this point for Grayson to end up in the rafters, unless that idea about academic honors comes into play, which would be a weird thing for Coach K to insert after nearly 40 years on the job.

I personally don't think it will happen, but if we get a natty and Grayson gets final four MOP this year then I'm good with it either way. Without those two things I'm in the "Nope" group.

Then again my last initial isn't K and there is this thing where coach K can make it happen if he wants to.

jimsumner
03-05-2018, 06:53 PM
Kyle Singler was Final Four MOP, had more All-ACC recognition and better cumulative stats than Allen and he's not even at the top of my list.

I think some are over-valuing the national title thing. Sure Allen was instrumental in that title. But lots of folks were instrumental in the 2010 title, three of them have comparable or better qualifications than Allen. None of them have been so honored.

Thomas Hill was third-team All-ACC three times, started on two NCAA title teams, was third-leading scorer on one, second-leading scorer on another. That doesn't mean his career was anywhere near players like Dawkins, Ferry, Redick and anyone who ever played at Duke before 1991 and didn't win a title.

Grayson Allen averaged 4.4 points per game in 2015. The idea that that season would move the needle towards a jersey retirement seems like a big reach to me.

Making Academic All-ACC while playing basketball at Duke is a significant accomplishment. But Mason Plumlee did it three times and he was an All-American, he played on an NCAA title team and he was Academic All-America twice. Amile Jefferson was Academic All-ACC four times, Mike Dunleavy three times, Greg Paulus three times, Trajan Langdon three times, Jim Spanarkel twice, Ryan Kelly twice. Spanarkel was Academic All-America twice. If academics is going to be a measuring stick, then he should be in before Allen.

Bob Fleisher was Academic All-America twice and he averaged 14.6 points and 10.5 rebounds per game in three seasons and he might not be in the top 50.

Duke recruits smart players, really smart players and many of them are really good college-basketball players.

So, again the standards for jersey retirement have to be very high, higher than at the basketball programs of almost any other school. That's just the way it is.

westwall
03-05-2018, 09:35 PM
We've had this discussion so many times over the years, that I think I can type my response while asleep.

Allen can't be discussed without looking at the context. Retiring his jersey means leap-frogging him over everyone else whose jersey has not been retired.

[I]n the context of Duke's long and distinguished basketball history, I cannot see Allen meeting the necessarily rigorous jersey-retirement threshold YET.


Fixed it. So there's a CHANCE !

jv001
03-05-2018, 09:39 PM
It's sad that Randy Denton did not play on teams that won championships because he was a great player. Randy averaged 20 points per game and 13 rebounds per game for his career. He had some nice players on his teams but no real stars. His career was 1968-1969, 1969-1970, 1970-1971 and his season averages were almost identical. He's really is one of Duke's less talked about players and that's a shame. Randy was a great player as far as I'm concerned. GoDuke!

Sorry Jim, I did not read back far enough to see your post mentioning Randy. I will add that as much as I love Grayson Allen, if Bob Verga's jersey is not retired, no way Grayson's is. GoDuke1

duke74
03-05-2018, 09:47 PM
It's sad that Randy Denton did not play on teams that won championships because he was a great player. Randy averaged 20 points per game and 13 rebounds per game for his career. He had some nice players on his teams but no real stars. His career was 1968-1969, 1969-1970, 1970-1971 and his season averages were almost identical. He's really is one of Duke's less talked about players and that's a shame. Randy was a great player as far as I'm concerned. GoDuke!

Sorry Jim, I did not read back far enough to see your post mentioning Randy. I will add that as much as I love Grayson Allen, if Bob Verga's jersey is not retired, no way Grayson's is. GoDuke1

Agree. Had him on the court my freshman year (70-71). Impressive player.

dudog84
03-05-2018, 10:05 PM
Shelden Williams didn't meet the requirements, and so the requirements changed, and we all pretended that we knew all along that Defensive Player of the Year counted as a NPOY award. That type of thing could happen again.

But, I think it's only worth debating if we win a national title this year.

Shelden is Duke's all-time leader in rebounds AND blocked shots. That counts for something.

Re Grayson, big fan, love the kid, but no way (regardless of what happens the next few weeks) he gets his jersey retired. For all the reasons so well elaborated by others above.

Edouble
03-06-2018, 12:25 AM
Retiring Grayson's jersey is like saying that Justise Winslow is the best defensive player ever at Duke. It's pretty insulting to many that came before him.

cato
03-06-2018, 12:42 AM
Retiring Grayson's jersey is like saying that Justise Winslow is the best defensive player ever at Duke. It's pretty insulting to many that came before him.

Anyone who would say that probably has no sense of Duke history.

:p

UrinalCake
03-06-2018, 08:50 AM
I feel like Mr. Sumner has dropped the mic three different times on this thread. So I will simply add the following: our perspective has gotten so skewed over the past few years by the OAD’s. Just having a guy play for four years is becoming increasingly rare. Mostly, the guys that stay do so because they are not the best players on the team. Grayson has been a really good player, but once upon a time we had multiple really good players graduate every year. That doesn’t mean you get your jersey retired.

uh_no
03-06-2018, 09:05 AM
not that it's particularly meaningful, but grayson was named to USA Today's third team all american. Bagley was first team:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2018/03/05/usa-today-sports-2017-18-all-america-college-basketball-team/385880002/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomsports-topstories

Truth&Justise
03-06-2018, 10:17 AM
not that it's particularly meaningful, but grayson was named to USA Today's third team all american. Bagley was first team:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2018/03/05/usa-today-sports-2017-18-all-america-college-basketball-team/385880002/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomsports-topstories

A little off topic, but I continue to laugh at publications that are giving individual recognition to Kyle Guy instead of Devon Hall. It screams "leading scorer on best team" without any ounce of investigative nuance. Also, it would be ok if no Virginia players got individual recognition. They've been the best team and we all know it, but they've also been more than the sum of their parts.

CDu
03-06-2018, 10:31 AM
A little off topic, but I continue to laugh at publications that are giving individual recognition to Kyle Guy instead of Devon Hall. It screams "leading scorer on best team" without any ounce of investigative nuance. Also, it would be ok if no Virginia players got individual recognition. They've been the best team and we all know it, but they've also been more than the sum of their parts.

I agree. If anyone from UVa should be on the list, it should be Devon Hall. That guy is terrific on both sides of the ball. Honestly, he should probably be on the list and not Allen, too. But Hall should definitely be on the team over Guy. That (and the All-ACC vote) are definitely examples of "UVa is really good, so we have to vote for someone from there, but we don't know who because they are so balanced and play a slow pace... let's give it to the guy who we remember from then man bun days and who scores the most points".

uh_no
03-06-2018, 10:35 AM
A little off topic, but I continue to laugh at publications that are giving individual recognition to Kyle Guy instead of Devon Hall. It screams "leading scorer on best team" without any ounce of investigative nuance. Also, it would be ok if no Virginia players got individual recognition. They've been the best team and we all know it, but they've also been more than the sum of their parts.

Also the fact that grayson was over wendell here. the latter was far more consistent all year.

It just points that the voters for these things don't actually pay an ounce of attention to details.....which is why I think the program shouldn't use somewhat arbitrary national votes as criteria....it's almost like saying we should only get to hang a national title banner if we were also voted #1 in the polls at the end of the regular season.

If the consideration is "national recognition," then grayson sure as heck got national recognition, and in ways nobody else in duke's history has :D

While I'd love to see grayson retired, and far more than any of the other players in the past 10 years that people have made arguments for here, he still falls short.

cptnflash
03-06-2018, 11:44 PM
To the OP - No. Grayson is one of my all time favorite Duke players, but unless the rules change regarding the national POY (of some kind) requirement, his jersey will never hang in Cameron.

That in no way diminishes his accomplishments at Duke, past present and (hopefully) future.

Edouble
03-07-2018, 10:33 AM
Anyone who would say that probably has no sense of Duke history.

:p

It's a quote from Grant Hill.

He said it while announcing the Duke-San Diego State game during the 2015 NCAA Tournament, and was then taken to task over it on Twitter.

DaleDuke7
03-07-2018, 11:30 AM
The only possible argument for it (since it would be inconsistent with previous practice, as many have pointed out) is that K can do whatever he wants. As a former CEO boss of mine told me once, "don't expect me to be consistent." Very much doubt it happens, but as Jason Evans would say, there's a non-zero chance.

Maybe K gets a wee bit more sentimental as retirement looms, and loom it does.

I think this is a possibility. I know Grayson doesn’t have all of the individual accomplishments that it seems to require, but I think if K was going to make an exception for anybody, it would be Grayson. K doesn’t refer to just anybody as “my son”. Plus I kind of think he already has made exceptions for Grayson. (Think multiple tripping incidents and a temper tantrum) And he only got suspended one game. I’m not sure many other players in Duke history would’ve gotten off with just one game and whatever they did internally. Some may think the tripping incidents hurt his chances, and they may, but I think they also add to his story. From last guy in the rotation his freshman year, suddenly going off in the championship game, to his breakout sophomore year, to the scrutiny of his junior season, and now back to loving basketball and (possibly) leading this team to another National Championship as the lone senior. It doesn’t get much better than that, IMO. I do think that his love for Duke and the way he showed it on the court should factor in. And as others have said, I’m not sure there’s been anybody that has loved Duke as much as Grayson. I don’t think you lower the standards for all future players if you make an exception for one exceptional story and excellent player. Not to mention he will complete the most important “requirement”, graduating. Grayson will go down as one of my top two favorite players in Duke history so maybe I’m being a little bias.

Ultimately, I think Grayson’s number doesn’t get retired, but I do think the chances are better than “non-zero” so to speak.

“I never thought about leaving.”

Highlander
03-07-2018, 11:42 AM
Has anyone ever been retired without being ACC POY or a 1st team All-American? Grayson was a 2nd team All-American as a soph and was first team All-ACC that year. He was 3rd team All-ACC this year. Not saying individual accomplishments are the main criteria, but Grayson is far far short of many guys who are not retired. Even if we win a second national title, it would be more than a little surprising if Grayson ended up with his jersey in the rafters.

I have heard it said (possibly by K) that
You need national recognition to be in the conversation for a jersey retirement.
We aren't retroactively retiring jerseys anymore (like Mullins in 1994). The Duke Hall of Honor will be used to recognize these non-retired # players.
Retirement would happen a year or so after they are done playing so as not to create additional pressure on a regular season game.
The only player K has regrets about not retiring is Tommy Amaker.


Given the national recognition, here are some other factoids:

There has only been one NPOY from Duke whose jersey is not retired - Elton Brand.
There have been three NDPOY from Duke whose jerseys are not retired - Billy King and Steve Wojciechowski, Tommy Amaker
There are three players who were not NPOY or NDPOY whose numbers were retired - Bobby Hurley, Mike Gminski, Jeff Mullins
There has only been one player who left early and whose # was retired - Jason Williams (Jason did graduate early, however).


So there's no clear criteria on what constitutes a retirement. Given K's disdain for rules and how they get in the way of leadership, my take is that he likes it that way, and prefers to make the call based on total body of work and not as a guarantee due to outside honors.

Wikipedia has a list of all our retired jerseys, NPOY's, and NDPOY's:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Blue_Devils_men%27s_basketball

rsvman
03-07-2018, 11:48 AM
I think the only way this happens is as follows:

1) We win the ACC tournament, and Grayson carries the team in the championship game, winning MOP honors.

2) We win the NCAA tournament, and Grayson carries the team in the Final Four, being named MOP of the Final Four.


Especially if something crazy happens, like we are behind by 9 in the second half of the National Championship game and he goes on a run with steals, scores multiple points in a row, etc., seemingly singlehandedly pulling us up by our bootstraps and willing us to victory (as if something like that could ever possibly happen!).


If all this transpires, I think there is a possibility that his jersey will be retired. Otherwise, no.

Sir Stealth
03-07-2018, 11:50 AM
I think this is a possibility. I know Grayson doesn’t have all of the individual accomplishments that it seems to require, but I think if K was going to make an exception for anybody, it would be Grayson. K doesn’t refer to just anybody as “my son”. Plus I kind of think he already has made exceptions for Grayson. (Think multiple tripping incidents and a temper tantrum) And he only got suspended one game. I’m not sure many other players in Duke history would’ve gotten off with just one game and whatever they did internally. Some may think the tripping incidents hurt his chances, and they may, but I think they also add to his story. From last guy in the rotation his freshman year, suddenly going off in the championship game, to his breakout sophomore year, to the scrutiny of his junior season, and now back to loving basketball and (possibly) leading this team to another National Championship as the lone senior. It doesn’t get much better than that, IMO. I do think that his love for Duke and the way he showed it on the court should factor in. And as others have said, I’m not sure there’s been anybody that has loved Duke as much as Grayson. I don’t think you lower the standards for all future players if you make an exception for one exceptional story and excellent player. Not to mention he will complete the most important “requirement”, graduating. Grayson will go down as one of my top two favorite players in Duke history so maybe I’m being a little bias.

Ultimately, I think Grayson’s number doesn’t get retired, but I do think the chances are better than “non-zero” so to speak.

“I never thought about leaving.”

I don't want to pile on this because it clearly comes from a great place and I love Grayson too. I respect your appreciation for what Grayson has contributed to Duke, and I hope that we'll have even more to appreciate from him in a month or so. But with this kind of recency bias we do a disservice to the incredible history Duke has of players who gave their heart and soul to the program and defined Duke basketball.

I assure you that Coach K has felt the way he does about Grayson with many players who have come through the program. This kind of "loves Duke so much and is a favorite of Coach K" thinking would have Wojo's jersey hanging in the rafters. Some even tried to argue for Nolan Smith's jersey to be raised up not so long ago because of similar sentiment as he finished his career at Duke. Obviously that would have been a mistake, as much as I love Nolan Smith (and Grayson, and Wojo, and Singler, and on and on...)

"Graduated while not being a scrub in the one and done era" and "didn't serve as long a suspension as most people thought he would for a series of nationally embarrassing incidents" are also new lows for criteria submitted as part of a jersey retirement discussion. So many Duke players have amazing narratives for their career, and yes, it would cheapen both past history and standards for future players to single one out now.

Messimorgan17
03-07-2018, 11:51 AM
One factor that has not been mentioned here. He played hurt his entire junior year.

DaleDuke7
03-07-2018, 12:12 PM
I don't want to pile on this because it clearly comes from a great place and I love Grayson too. I respect your appreciation for what Grayson has contributed to Duke, and I hope that we'll have even more to appreciate from him in a month or so. But with this kind of recency bias we do a disservice to the incredible history Duke has of players who gave their heart and soul to the program and defined Duke basketball.

I assure you that Coach K has felt the way he does about Grayson with many players who have come through the program. This kind of "loves Duke so much and is a favorite of Coach K" thinking would have Wojo's jersey hanging in the rafters. Some even tried to argue for Nolan Smith's jersey to be raised up not so long ago because of similar sentiment as he finished his career at Duke. Obviously that would have been a mistake, as much as I love Nolan Smith (and Grayson, and Wojo, and Singler, and on and on...)

"Graduated while not being a scrub in the one and done era" and "didn't serve as long a suspension as most people thought he would for a series of nationally embarrassing incidents" are also new lows for criteria submitted as part of a jersey retirement discussion. So many Duke players have amazing narratives for their career, and yes, it would cheapen both past history and standards for future players to single one out now.

I guess I should also mention that, at only 24, I can only remember the past 15-18 years of Duke basketball. The only players I ever remember seeing get their jerseys retired are JJ and Sheldon. (I remember Jay-Will but don’t specifically remember his jersey retirement ceremony.) So, admittedly, I probably come from a place of bias towards the current generation of players. I know what many of the other players did back in the day, but there’s just something about actually living it that I can’t personally factor in. Also, I selfishly hate the possibility of never getting to see another jersey go up. I know many here are fine with that, but many of those have probably got to enjoy the earlier players as well. By no means do I expect the standards to change for me, but I would be perfectly fine if they changed, one time, for Grayson. After all, and as others have said, depending on the rule changes, we may never see a player like Grayson who stays and graduates ever again. So, it would be the lone exception.



I want to clarify, I don’t disagree with the reasons for his jersey not to be retired. Those arguments hold as much credence, and probably more than mine. In a nutshell, my opinion is:

Should Grayson’s jersey retired? Probably not.
Do I want it to be? Absolutely.

jimsumner
03-07-2018, 12:26 PM
I guess I should also mention that, at only 24, I can only remember the past 15-18 years of Duke basketball. The only players I ever remember seeing get their jerseys retired are JJ and Sheldon. (I remember Jay-Will but don’t specifically remember his jersey retirement ceremony.) So, admittedly, I probably come from a place of bias towards the current generation of players. I know what many of the other players did back in the day, but there’s just something about actually living it that I can’t personally factor in. Also, I selfishly hate the possibility of never getting to see another jersey go up. I know many here are fine with that, but many of those have probably got to enjoy the earlier players as well. By no means do I expect the standards to change for me, but I would be perfectly fine if they changed, one time, for Grayson. After all, and as others have said, depending on the rule changes, we may never see a player like Grayson who stays and graduates ever again. So, it would be the lone exception.

Forever is a long time.

NBA entry rules will change, Duke will have a new coach someday, and Duke will have great, four-year players again.

Look at recent National POYs.

Doug McDermott was consensus NPOY in 2014. He was a senior.

Frank Kaminsky was consensus NPOY in 2015. He was a senior.

Buddy Hield was consensus NPOY in 2016. He was a senior.

Frank Mason was consensus NPOY in 2017. He was a senior.

Sporting News named Jalen Brunson their 2018 NPOY. He's a junior.

So, even in today's one-and-done environment, great college players do stick around. There's no reason to think that will not be the case at Duke in the future.

DukeDevilDeb
03-07-2018, 12:31 PM
Actually, MBIII’s number is already hanging in the rafters!

It could not be retired until Marvin graduates. That is an absolutely firm rule. If anyone might have done it, Brand might... but K made it clear: no graduation and no retirement.

As to Grayson, I love the kid... but he has not be recognized as a NPOY or NDPOY. Without that, there isn't a chance.

Go Devils!

Reddevil
03-07-2018, 02:05 PM
I agree that the Hall of Honors is the appropriate place for Grayson, and while not the rafters it is a really cool place to be.

One thing that stands out for Grayson is that he has played his entire Duke career during the OAD era. This means that unlike many that have their numbers retired, he has not had the luxury of growing with a team during his tenure. He had to regroup each year more so than before the OAD era and was asked to be a leader for each of those teams after his freshman year. He was a two-time captain and the coaching staff counted on him to direct the others often on the fly.

It is unlikely to happen, but if he becomes a two-time winner of the "One Shining Moment" award, then would that legendary status (meaning 2 natty's and being a MAJOR reason why) make it appropriate? Would that really diminish the accomplishments of the others in the rafters? His terrific academic performance should also be considered as part of his overall body of work.

cakerace
03-10-2018, 04:04 AM
No. Unfortunately no, but no.

DUKIECB
03-10-2018, 08:46 AM
This probably isn't going to be a popular opinion around here but I will be relieved when Grayson is no longer wearing a Duke uniform. If this guy played for the cheats he would be one of the most hated players by Duke fans of all time and not because of his basketball ability but rather because of his antics and dirty play. Last night was the nail in the coffin for me. I've tried to defend him and rationalize that he's just a kid etc etc but I'm tired of it. The bottom line is he's a dirty player at times and he has not represented Duke in the way that I expect our players to do so. I wish him the best I really do but I'm tired of making excuses for his petty, childish behavior.

jv001
03-10-2018, 11:00 AM
This probably isn't going to be a popular opinion around here but I will be relieved when Grayson is no longer wearing a Duke uniform. If this guy played for the cheats he would be one of the most hated players by Duke fans of all time and not because of his basketball ability but rather because of his antics and dirty play. Last night was the nail in the coffin for me. I've tried to defend him and rationalize that he's just a kid etc etc but I'm tired of it. The bottom line is he's a dirty player at times and he has not represented Duke in the way that I expect our players to do so. I wish him the best I really do but I'm tired of making excuses for his petty, childish behavior.

How do you feel about Christian? GoDuke!

Trey21
03-10-2018, 11:44 AM
Grayson has been an all timer. Especially given the OAD era, but the sad truth is he doesn't really deserve to have his jersey up there. I could maybe see it if Duke some how pulls off a Natty this year, but for all the personal progress (or lack there off) and media attention he is just too streaky of a player to really warrant his jersey up their with the all time GREATEST Duke players. Kid's got a lot of heart, plays with a lot of force, and I've enjoyed his four years at Duke, and most importantly he IS a special player in our history from a narrative standpoint, but when it's all said and done he just isn't up their with dude's like JJ and Shane unless he can cap off his time here with a chip.

That said there's few college players who have played with the amount of talent that he his over the course of his four years.

Also I give Grayson mad respect for staying after his sophomore year, but his case of sticking around kinda highlights that even when "great" college players stick around until their senior year they still aren't guaranteed to develop their games, or improve in general. I know he's been injured on and off for his career, but the past couple crops of seniors that have been in the spotlight in college basketball aren't really that amazing in terms of skill (well duh, they woulda left!), but they have learned poise in related to the college game. Grayson still seems to be finding his.

DUKIECB
03-10-2018, 11:53 AM
How do you feel about Christian? GoDuke! For me the difference between Grayson and Christian is the repetitive nature of Grayson's cheap shots and they are almost always unprovoked. Yes Christian had the stomp and I believe he was wrong for doing it but I don't remember him continually tripping players for no reason or sticking his rear out to knock a player to the ground. I was young then so correct me if I'm wrong.

Bluegrassdevil1
03-10-2018, 11:54 AM
This probably isn't going to be a popular opinion around here but I will be relieved when Grayson is no longer wearing a Duke uniform. If this guy played for the cheats he would be one of the most hated players by Duke fans of all time and not because of his basketball ability but rather because of his antics and dirty play. Last night was the nail in the coffin for me. I've tried to defend him and rationalize that he's just a kid etc etc but I'm tired of it. The bottom line is he's a dirty player at times and he has not represented Duke in the way that I expect our players to do so. I wish him the best I really do but I'm tired of making excuses for his petty, childish behavior.

This explanation is not totally incorrect. Part of me believes Duke's recent recruiting success is all the more impressive because the coaching staff is convincing young men to play alongside the circus created by the team's elder statesman. For Allen's sake, I do wish he had left after the 2015 title game. He would have departed under a spotlight of national esteem, opposed to the current focal point of negativity. The kid is not Laettner, nor Redick, nor even Bonzie Wells, because large swaths of society respect those guys.

jv001
03-10-2018, 12:31 PM
For me the difference between Grayson and Christian is the repetitive nature of Grayson's cheap shots and they are almost always unprovoked. Yes Christian had the stomp and I believe he was wrong for doing it but I don't remember him continually tripping players for no reason or sticking his rear out to knock a player to the ground. I was young then so correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct, Christian had an attitude about him, but the "stomp" was the only play that was out of line. Grayson is one of my favorite Duke players, but he does take some cheap shots. Many come from being beaten up throughout the game by his defender, but that's no excuse. JJ took more punishment than Grayson ever took and he never took cheap shots. Grayson is no dummy and he should know the refs are watching his every move. So, why do anything that the refs can call a foul on him. GoDuke!