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RPS
02-28-2018, 11:29 AM
Last Friday, former President Barack Obama spoke at a major sports analytics conference at MIT. As reported by Reason magazine (https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/26/barack-obama-mit-sloan-sports), he discussed his own career as a so-so high school basketball player, remarked that playing basketball with other people revealed much about their character, and argued that the NBA would be well-served by a junior league "so that the NCAA is not serving as a farm system for the NBA with a bunch of kids who are unpaid but are under enormous financial pressure."

"It's just not a sustainable way of doing business," said Obama. "Then when everybody acts shocked that some kid from extraordinarily poor circumstances who's got 5, 10, 15 million dollars waiting for him is going to be circled by everybody in a context in which people are making billions of dollars, it's not good." Creating an alternative league for people eventually headed to the NBA "won't solve all the problems but what it will do is reduce the hypocrisy" of pretending that all student-athletes are both students and athletes.

mgtr
02-28-2018, 12:16 PM
There are not a whole slew of things upon which I agreed with President Obama, but I think this is right on target. I don't see how it could/would work, but I would be interested in learning possibilities.

elvis14
02-28-2018, 02:11 PM
Creating an alternative league for people eventually headed to the NBA "won't solve all the problems but what it will do is reduce the hypocrisy" of pretending that all student-athletes are both students and athletes.

If I remember right, beefing up the G-League to be that alternative is part of the last plan I saw proposed, as well it should be.

BigZ
02-28-2018, 02:14 PM
I'd rather see schools and conferences branch off from NCAA.

RPS
02-28-2018, 02:15 PM
If I remember right, beefing up the G-League to be that alternative is part of the last plan I saw proposed, as well it should be.I think you're right. Also included was the ability of high school players to enter the draft.

RPS
02-28-2018, 02:19 PM
I'd rather see schools and conferences branch off from NCAA.Football has done this...sort of. BCS schools remain part of the NCAA but have a separate national championship. Still, the change you suggest wouldn't necessarily impact high school draft eligibility. But it could (and should).

elvis14
02-28-2018, 02:38 PM
With the OAD model we have the discussion is always about the NBA's rule about a player being out of HS a year, etc. I don't see why the NCAA couldn't just come with an agreement with schools where a scholarship offer carries a minimum 2 year commitment. Why do we have to wait for the NBA to change?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-28-2018, 02:42 PM
With the OAD model we have the discussion is always about the NBA's rule about a player being out of HS a year, etc. I don't see why the NCAA couldn't just come with an agreement with schools where a scholarship offer carries a minimum 2 year commitment. Why do we have to wait for the NBA to change?

I would guess the question would be "two years, or what?" Two years or you owe us money for the first year? What NBA prospect would pass on their rookie contract because they had to pay back $25-$50k?

(just guessing)

Bob Green
02-28-2018, 02:45 PM
I don't see why the NCAA couldn't just come with an agreement with schools where a scholarship offer carries a minimum 2 year commitment.

The agreement would be unenforceable without NBA cooperation. At the end of year one, a player could just drop out of school and head off to the NBA Draft unless the NBA agreed to make any player who does not complete the 2 year commitment ineligible for the draft.

jimsumner
02-28-2018, 06:12 PM
The agreement would be unenforceable without NBA cooperation. At the end of year one, a player could just drop out of school and head off to the NBA Draft unless the NBA agreed to make any player who does not complete the 2 year commitment ineligible for the draft.

Correct. Any changes would have to be part of a CBA between the NBA and the NBA Players Association. The NCAA just can't dictate this. The courts won't allow it.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-28-2018, 06:34 PM
I'd rather see schools and conferences branch off from NCAA.

At least if the Power 5 schools could separate the revenue generating sports(football, men’s and women’s basketball, maybe baseball) from all the other sports that don’t make money.

Because when it comes to the issue of the NCAA “paying athletes”, how can it differentiate paying a kid that is on a football scholarship from a kid on a lacrosse scholly.

I would think Title IX would also come into play here.

Just seems like an issue that looks easy to solve on paper, but the reality of actually making it work is much more complicated.

ipatent
02-28-2018, 06:43 PM
The problem of encouraging kids to join a developmental league instead of college is that most of them aren't going to play in the NBA when all is said and done. At least with college the majority of these kids have something to fall back on.

I also can't see a developmental league ever competing with college basketball on a revenue basis or popularity with fans.

elvis14
02-28-2018, 07:47 PM
I would guess the question would be "two years, or what?" Two years or you owe us money for the first year? What NBA prospect would pass on their rookie contract because they had to pay back $25-$50k?

(just guessing)


The agreement would be unenforceable without NBA cooperation. At the end of year one, a player could just drop out of school and head off to the NBA Draft unless the NBA agreed to make any player who does not complete the 2 year commitment ineligible for the draft.


Correct. Any changes would have to be part of a CBA between the NBA and the NBA Players Association. The NCAA just can't dictate this. The courts won't allow it.

I would assume that the two year contract would have to have an "or what" clause. Without an "or what" clause you couldn't enforce it and you would need NBA cooperation. We don't want NBA cooperation, screw them. What if the "or what" clause was that you'd have to pay the school your salary if you left early to play pro ball and 2x that salary if you left early and tried to not make the payment? (just brainstorming here)

PackMan97
02-28-2018, 08:29 PM
One simple solution that the NCAA could implement is that an athlete takes up a scholarship slot for two years, even if they go pro, drop out or transfer after one year the school still has that scholarship unavailable the next year.

I've thought the same system could be used for immediate transfers. Kids can play immediately, but they take up two scholarships, unless they redshirt.

jv001
02-28-2018, 08:32 PM
One simple solution that the NCAA could implement is that an athlete takes up a scholarship slot for two years, even if they go pro, drop out or transfer after one year the school still has that scholarship unavailable the next year.

I've thought the same system could be used for immediate transfers. Kids can play immediately, but they take up two scholarships, unless they redshirt.

That would really hurt the school. GoDuke!

cato
02-28-2018, 09:29 PM
I would assume that the two year contract would have to have an "or what" clause. Without an "or what" clause you couldn't enforce it and you would need NBA cooperation. We don't want NBA cooperation, screw them. What if the "or what" clause was that you'd have to pay the school your salary if you left early to play pro ball and 2x that salary if you left early and tried to not make the payment? (just brainstorming here)

Putting aside whether OAD players would sign such a contract, you would have enforceability issues. Generally, the school would have to prove damages. They would try to characterize the payment as liquidated damages, but it may be an unenforceable penalty.

All of this would be governed by state law, so different states, different ways of doing things. But in any state, if I’m the school, I’m not liking going into court to argue that this player should have to pay me a huge amount of money for deciding not to play for free.

BigZ
02-28-2018, 09:33 PM
I'm for getting rid of the OAD but not until after next season...

jimsumner
02-28-2018, 09:42 PM
If the NCAA had a clever work-around, they would have tried it by now.

They don't and they haven't. The NBA and the NBA Players Association decide the rules of employment as part of their collective bargaining process.

Devil549
02-28-2018, 10:07 PM
Jim has it correct NBA has the power of course they could say you have to be 20 or 21 to play in our league or have two years of college....they like any business can have minimum requirements for employment.

PackMan97
02-28-2018, 10:26 PM
That would really hurt the school. GoDuke!

Only if they recruit a bunch of one year players. Everything in moderation.

mgtr
03-01-2018, 08:45 AM
One point I haven't seen mentioned (which may just be my hangup) is that we should not force young people to go to college. Studying English, history, and other academic subjects is not for everyone, and one or two years of such studies may not be much help in life. Knowing how to weld, make accurate cuts, and drive nails straight may be far more useful. Knowing how to balance a checkbook is certainly more useful. It seems silly to send young folks out to be millionaires (some of them, at least) without knowing the rudiments of finance.

moonpie23
03-01-2018, 08:55 AM
The problem of encouraging kids to join a developmental league instead of college is that most of them aren't going to play in the NBA when all is said and done. At least with college the majority of these kids have something to fall back on.



the caveat here is, there is a large percentage of kids who simply can not complete college academically.

Reddevil
03-01-2018, 08:55 AM
One point I haven't seen mentioned (which may just be my hangup) is that we should not force young people to go to college. Studying English, history, and other academic subjects is not for everyone, and one or two years of such studies may not be much help in life. Knowing how to weld, make accurate cuts, and drive nails straight may be far more useful. Knowing how to balance a checkbook is certainly more useful. It seems silly to send young folks out to be millionaires (some of them, at least) without knowing the rudiments of finance.

Yes! We have such a dearth of skilled labor in this country and these are darn good careers. A business degree then certainly helps take it to the next level, but I am not sure why we have become a country of degree mills. I guess I'd better stop there.

PackMan97
03-01-2018, 09:22 AM
the caveat here is, there is a large percentage of kids who simply can not complete college academically.

another caveat is there are a few schools who care so much about winning they push kids them into classes with no academic value so the athlete has more time to focus on getting better at sports. Of course, this also allows kids who can handle college level academics to graduate from college. It's genius.

alteran
03-01-2018, 09:36 AM
I would assume that the two year contract would have to have an "or what" clause. Without an "or what" clause you couldn't enforce it and you would need NBA cooperation. We don't want NBA cooperation, screw them. What if the "or what" clause was that you'd have to pay the school your salary if you left early to play pro ball and 2x that salary if you left early and tried to not make the payment? (just brainstorming here)

Your idea would be a non-starter from a PR standpoint. Schools are already getting “free labor” for one year, now they get someone’s first year of salary?

I also think a judge would throw it out. Not all contractural terms are enforceable.

elvis14
03-01-2018, 10:44 AM
Your idea would be a non-starter from a PR standpoint. Schools are already getting “free labor” for one year, now they get someone’s first year of salary?

I also think a judge would throw it out. Not all contractural terms are enforceable.

Yeah, I know. I just hate that the NCAA is at the mercy of the NBA when it comes to players length of stay. I'd prefer that the NCAA set the best terms for their basketball league and let he NBA set the best terms for their's (and of course it would be great if the terms of both worked well together and benefitted the players and the teams).

As for the PR, thing, the NCAA wouldn't want that first year of salary, what they want is for players to sign a 2 year contract an honor it. Without some significant punishment for breaking the 2 year contract, the contract means nothing and we are back to the NBA rules dictating NCAA rules.

PackMan97
03-01-2018, 11:14 AM
Yeah, I know. I just hate that the NCAA is at the mercy of the NBA when it comes to players length of stay. I'd prefer that the NCAA set the best terms for their basketball league and let he NBA set the best terms for their's (and of course it would be great if the terms of both worked well together and benefitted the players and the teams).

As for the PR, thing, the NCAA wouldn't want that first year of salary, what they want is for players to sign a 2 year contract an honor it. Without some significant punishment for breaking the 2 year contract, the contract means nothing and we are back to the NBA rules dictating NCAA rules.

I come back to my idea that any kid who plays for a school will take up two scholarship slots over one or two years (school choice), regardless of how many years they stay. . This does a few things, first it does not limit kids in any way (other than reducing the market for likely one year players). Second, it makes schools think about how many one and done players they want to sign, how many graduate transfers they want to sign and how many unrealistic promises coaches make which causes quite a few transfers after their freshmen season.

Let's face it, most schools aren't giving out 13 scholarships anyways (unless it's to walk-ons). So there is some "slack" in the system already that would account for all but the most extreme situations (where you recruit 5 one and dones in the same class).

ipatent
03-01-2018, 12:34 PM
the caveat here is, there is a large percentage of kids who simply can not complete college academically.

Agreed that there is a large percentage of kids who simply can not complete college without watering down the experience considerably in one way or another.

ipatent
03-01-2018, 12:35 PM
I come back to my idea that any kid who plays for a school will take up two scholarship slots over one or two years (school choice), regardless of how many years they stay. . This does a few things, first it does not limit kids in any way (other than reducing the market for likely one year players). Second, it makes schools think about how many one and done players they want to sign, how many graduate transfers they want to sign and how many unrealistic promises coaches make which causes quite a few transfers after their freshmen season.

Let's face it, most schools aren't giving out 13 scholarships anyways (unless it's to walk-ons). So there is some "slack" in the system already that would account for all but the most extreme situations (where you recruit 5 one and dones in the same class).

Why should a school be punished for recruiting the best players? Sounds like a sour grapes policy to me.

RPS
03-01-2018, 12:57 PM
another caveat is there are a few schools who care so much about winning they push kids them into classes with no academic value so the athlete has more time to focus on getting better at sports.My son was a D1 athlete at a top tier academic school and had friends at numerous others. It is an almost universal practice aggressively to encourage players to take easier classes and majors in order to focus on athletics. Practice schedules are routinely created so as to keep athletes "on the job" far more than NCAA-imposed maximum time periods without violating the rules. Athletic staff is always actively engaged in trying to game the system to the fullest extent possible for the benefit of programs and coaches and (sometimes incidentally) to the detriment of academics and student-athletes.

It's an unfortunate and sometimes ugly reality, but reality nonetheless.

Lar77
03-01-2018, 01:37 PM
I come back to my idea that any kid who plays for a school will take up two scholarship slots over one or two years (school choice), regardless of how many years they stay. . This does a few things, first it does not limit kids in any way (other than reducing the market for likely one year players). Second, it makes schools think about how many one and done players they want to sign, how many graduate transfers they want to sign and how many unrealistic promises coaches make which causes quite a few transfers after their freshmen season.

Let's face it, most schools aren't giving out 13 scholarships anyways (unless it's to walk-ons). So there is some "slack" in the system already that would account for all but the most extreme situations (where you recruit 5 one and dones in the same class).

How about scholarships/eligibility count for 4 years (in other words, there are 52 slots). Exceptions for transfers and redshirts. Graduate transfers would have a different rule.

If a player enters the draft, but doesn't sign with a team, the player still is eligible to return to play out the remainder of the player's scholarship/eligibility. If the player doesn't return, the remaining eligibility slots have been used up.

The school is obligated to honor the scholarship (not the eligibility slot) to a player who returns within a reasonable time to pursue a degree.

This is apart from the other issues of agents and compensation, which are related but separate considerations.

rsvman
03-01-2018, 05:14 PM
I'd rather see schools and conferences branch off from NCAA.

You know what NCAA stands for, right?





No. Clue. At. All.