Dakich's comments about Bagley

[Jeffrey]

Do you agree with Dakich's comments about Bagley?

Dakich said:

“Bagley is all about Bagley. Honest to goodness, I can see in 18 minutes why Duke was able to go on a run when he was hurt. You hate to say that about a kid, but he is about himself. He gets the ball. It doesn’t come out. He doesn’t play defense. He’s a terrific talent, don’t get me wrong. But you could see real clear, real fast — and I’ll take all the shots that people want to give me — but you can see that he is about him.”

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/02/espn-dan-dakich-marvin-bagley-selfish-rant-duke-virginia-tech-video-bridges-college-basketball

I think many here, in a much kinder manner, have said rather similar things. I continue to disagree.

[Wander]

Saying he doesn't play defense is silly. He's had nice stretches of defense this season, and also has weaknesses on defense. Not really different than most of our players in that regard. He could probably stand to pass a little more, though I'm not sure that isn't by design.

Also, I don't think our results in the last 2 games with Bagley are any better or worse than in the 4 previous games without Bagley, so I'm not sure I buy the premise in the first place.

[uh_no]

Also, I don't think our results in the last 2 games with Bagley are any better or worse than in the 4 previous games without Bagley, so I'm not sure I buy the premise in the first place.

The offense has been extremely worse the past two games. It's certainly too early to tell, and I'm skeptical that, bagley is the main problem. Three point shooting is clearly down, but that's ......hit or miss (lolllll). I DO think the spacing changes somewhat and we end up with a tighter lane....and we get tons of turnovers there.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Do you agree with Dakich's comments about Bagley?

Dakich said:

“Bagley is all about Bagley. Honest to goodness, I can see in 18 minutes why Duke was able to go on a run when he was hurt. You hate to say that about a kid, but he is about himself. He gets the ball. It doesn’t come out. He doesn’t play defense. He’s a terrific talent, don’t get me wrong. But you could see real clear, real fast — and I’ll take all the shots that people want to give me — but you can see that he is about him.”

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/02/espn-dan-dakich-marvin-bagley-selfish-rant-duke-virginia-tech-video-bridges-college-basketball

I think many here, in a much kinder manner, have said rather similar things. I continue to disagree.

Yes, to a degree.

I believe we had better "team" basketball when Bagley was out. I know stats likely won't show it (they will likely show our assist rating was probably the same).

But visually, I liked it better. Whenever the ball went to Bagley, it was a black hole (or at least felt like it). I don't think he's a selfish player; I just think he's been taught like that. But as teams now know how to guard Bagley (1. play amazing denial defense in the post. 2. Double him ASAP when he gets the ball. 3. Double team the post so Bagley doesn't get rebounds), Bagley needs to adjust. And he hasn't.

Listen, this isn't a "I wish Bagley wasn't on our team". I love him on our team! He's an amazing talent. I just wish he read the defense better and didn't always look to score. Yesterday, when VT played Bagley really well, he should have adjusted.

As for his defense, yes, he's not a good defender (expect rebounding). He is the weakest link in the zone. And in M2M, he's a disaster.

[Wander]

The offense has been extremely worse the past two games. It's certainly too early to tell, and I'm skeptical that, bagley is the main problem. Three point shooting is clearly down, but that's ...hit or miss (lolllll). I DO think the spacing changes somewhat and we end up with a tighter lane...and we get tons of turnovers there.

Yeah, but don't you think the horrible offense against Syracuse was just due to our guards missing a ton of relatively open 3 point looks? That was my impression, anyway.

[Jeffrey]

But as teams now know how to guard Bagley (1. play amazing denial defense in the post. 2. Double him ASAP when he gets the ball. 3. Double team the post so Bagley doesn't get rebounds), Bagley needs to adjust. And he hasn't.

I do not believe teams now know how to guard Bagley. Since his return, in the last two games, Bagley has shot 8-9 and 5-9. Do we have anyone else who has shot 72% during the last two games?

[elvis14]

I saw everyone going nuts in the post game thread over Dakich's comments. I think he went too far but take a look around here and read posts from the last 2 weeks and you'll find lots of DBR posts stating that Bagley is not a good defender and that he's a black hole on offense (so is Trent, BTW). I know that I've stated the MBIII doesn't pass and that he's so good that it didn't matter for much of the season but that as teams have figured out how to play him (be very physical and force him to his right) he's been less effective.

My point isn't that I agree or disagree with Dakich but that DD stated the exact same thing that many on here have stated (without using the word selfish). We may not have cared for how far he took it or for his choice of words but I've pretty much read equivalent statements on here for a while. Having Bagley sit out for 4 games was an eye opener for some.

Note that I 100% think we are a better team with MBIII. I'm thrilled that he's on our team. There's no gray area there. I'll take MBIII on my team every day and twice on Sunday.

[Matches]

I agree he's a poor defender, probably the worst among our starting five. He also does a spotty job of blocking out. He gets a lot of rebounds because of his size and hops, but he's not an especially good rebounder, if that makes any sense.

I think he's a terrific offensive player. The league has adjusted to him somewhat, and there are times he could do a better job of passing out of double teams and traps. But overall he's excellent on that end of the floor.

Our spacing is no better without him; that's a myth. When Bagley was out we still had two bigs on the floor most of the time, and Bagley has a better mid-range or perimeter game than either Bolden or DeLaurier.

I think we suffer from "only one ball" syndrome at times on offense, and maybe Bagley being out made that less evident. I'd still rather have more options than fewer.

As I said in the other thread, I think Dakich was way out of line. Even if there was a point buried in there somewhere, he was out of line in the way he made it.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I agree he's a poor defender, probably the worst among our starting five. He also does a spotty job of blocking out. He gets a lot of rebounds because of his size and hops, but he's not an especially good rebounder, if that makes any sense.

I think he's a terrific offensive player. The league has adjusted to him somewhat, and there are times he could do a better job of passing out of double teams and traps. But overall he's excellent on that end of the floor.

Our spacing is no better without him; that's a myth. When Bagley was out we still had two bigs on the floor most of the time, and Bagley has a better mid-range or perimeter game than either Bolden or DeLaurier.

I think we suffer from "only one ball" syndrome at times on offense, and maybe Bagley being out made that less evident. I'd still rather have more options than fewer.

As I said in the other thread, I think Dakich was way out of line. Even if there was a point buried in there somewhere, he was out of line in the way he made it.

I absolutely agree with this. You don't bash a kid like that on national television because you think he's selfish and doesn't play defense. That was a pathetic ramble that had no place for a commentator.

[DoWorkDukie]

It seems pretty clear that our turnover rate and offensive flow go way up when Bagley's in the game.

Posters have complained we don't get the ball to him in the post, but it completely wrecks our offensive flow when he unsuccessfully tries to gain position for a fairly low percentage post shot. Carter is significantly more effective in the post, because he has the lower body strength to consistently establish position.

I want Bagley to be a Justin Winslow type player, but I don't entirely disagree with Dakich. Bagley wants to get his one on one shots and he doesn't contribute to the offensive flow of the team. I'm frustrated with our offense when he is a go to player. Grayson certainly wasn't making plays, but the amount of turnovers we commit trying to feed Bagley, or Bagley trying to go high low to Carter, makes our offense significantly less efficient.

[Jeffrey]

Yeah, but don't you think the horrible offense against Syracuse was just due to our guards missing a ton of relatively open 3 point looks? That was my impression, anyway.

Yes, in the last two games, Gary has made 17% of his shots (2-11 and 1-7). He was 3-8 and 3-10 in the previous two games. Watch out UNC and ACC tournament! Mean reversion is real.

[dyedwab]

My point isn't that I agree or disagree with Dakich but that DD stated the exact same thing that many on here have stated (without using the word selfish). We may not have cared for how far he took it or for his choice of words but I've pretty much read equivalent statements on here for a while. Having Bagley sit out for 4 games was an eye opener for some.

Here's the thing. What said about Bagley and his basketball ability is an opinion with which I disagree and other agree. But calling him selfish - and the tone in which he criticized him - was an attack not on his basketball ability, but on his character and personality. I doubt Dakich has spent enough time with Bagley to know him personally, so calling him selfish, well, in my mind, that's unacceptable and Dakich should apologize.

[uh_no]

Yeah, but don't you think the horrible offense against Syracuse was just due to our guards missing a ton of relatively open 3 point looks? That was my impression, anyway.

That's what I meant by threes are "hit or miss." The same could be true of last night. If we hit our average, that's about 9 more points, giving us a 116 adjusted offense or so. Not great, but not horrible.

[DoWorkDukie]

Another poster said this, but to be fair, Trent is arguably also a black hole on offense. But he is more efficient as a player with his shot selection and turnover rate.

[Jeffrey]

I saw everyone going nuts in the post game thread over Dakich's comments. I think he went too far but take a look around here and read posts from the last 2 weeks and you'll find lots of DBR posts stating that Bagley is not a good defender and that he's a black hole on offense (so is Trent, BTW). I know that I've stated the MBIII doesn't pass and that he's so good that it didn't matter for much of the season but that as teams have figured out how to play him (be very physical and force him to his right) he's been less effective.

My point isn't that I agree or disagree with Dakich but that DD stated the exact same thing that many on here have stated (without using the word selfish). We may not have cared for how far he took it or for his choice of words but I've pretty much read equivalent statements on here for a while. Having Bagley sit out for 4 games was an eye opener for some.


I strongly agree, which is why I started this thread. It's not how Dakich said it (which was obviously lame), it's his general opinion (black hole, bad D) which I wanted us to debate.

[Jeffrey]

Posters have complained we don't get the ball to him in the post, but it completely wrecks our offensive flow when he unsuccessfully tries to gain position for a fairly low percentage post shot. Carter is significantly more effective in the post, because he has the lower body strength to consistently establish position.


Fairly low? Bagley has made over 60% of his shots this season. Who do we have who has done significantly better?

[elvis14]

Here's the thing. What said about Bagley and his basketball ability is an opinion with which I disagree and other agree. But calling him selfish - and the tone in which he criticized him - was an attack not on his basketball ability, but on his character and personality. I doubt Dakich has spent enough time with Bagley to know him personally, so calling him selfish, well, in my mind, that's unacceptable and Dakich should apologize.

That's fair. I do think using the word selfish was unacceptable. I think that we've critiqued his play similarly but I can see where Dakich's wording crossed over to being personal.

[Avvocato]

There's a difference between saying Duke is more effective without Bagley on the floor (and why) and that Bagley is selfish and all about him. I don't think the personal shots are appropriate, or necessarily accurate. The first part is open to debate, as many here have done recently.

[Bluegrassdevil1]

Personally, I wonder if the games sans Bagley (including MSU) were more of a result of a St. Crispin's Day, one for all and all for one rally of the troops, than anything particularly tied to Bagley himself.

Mentally speaking, if the team's best player is out, everyone else could internally pull themselves up, whereas with Bagley, perhaps the individual's reflexively pull back.

There is no question that Bagley feels the weight of expectations (especially showing the NBA what they want to see), but I do believe he genuinely wants to be a segment on the chain; however, his reflex is naturally towards savior-mode, not Coach K's five fingers into a fist.

I think Duke is in a similar situation to 2011 with Irving. Duke was solid without KI, but no one in their right mind opts to sit the #1 pick. Duke could be better off, in most games, without Bagley, but in those moments when you need a star to take over, having Bagley is a HUGE benefit.

The Avengers can save the world without the Incredible Hulk or Thor, but... if you have the option to use a giant monster or a guy with a hammer, then you risk failure with those characters by your side.

I do think Duke goes realistically goes farther in the tournament without Bagley, but I also believe the only way the team wins the ACC tournament or the NCAA crown, is with Bagley on the floor.

[Channing]

What i can't figure out is what happened to the mindset. Early in the season Bagley was throwing some great passes and we were an unbelievably efficient offense. I'm not sure if maybe his legs are tired, and throwing up a shot is the easy way out. I also see some not great body language when he doesn't get the initial post pass. That said, he is getting the absolute crap beat out of him down low. I'd get frustrated too.

[Matches]

Fairly low? Bagley has made over 60% of his shots this season. Who do we have who has done significantly better?

Yea there's been nothing low-percentage about Bagley's game. He occasionally takes a more difficult shot when he probably should be looking to pass onto the perimeter but the dude is shooting 60% despite being the focal point of every team's defense.

re the black hole thing - last night Bagley took 9 shots and had 0 TOs in 36 minutes. He shot no FTs. There may have been times this season where he was a black hole but last night was not one of them.

[Rich]

I do think Duke goes realistically goes farther in the tournament without Bagley, but I also believe the only way the team wins the ACC tournament or the NCAA crown, is with Bagley on the floor.

Your points are interesting, and my intention is not to flame you, but I'm having trouble understanding why this statement isn't contradictory on its face.

[David Bunkley]

I thought Dakich was way out of line here.

I also think these three things regarding Duke's offense:

(1) Duke is not better without Bagley.
(2) Duke is better offensively when they spread the ball instead of running the offense through one person.
(3) IMO Bagley's biggest offensive strength is his ability to affect the game without needing to dominate the ball (offensive rebounding, finishing through contact, and catching lobs), so I would like to see him shift away from being ball dominant, unless he catches someone in a mismatch.

#GODUKE

[flyingdutchdevil]

Your points are interesting, and my intention is not to flame you, but I'm having trouble understanding why this statement isn't contradictory on its face.

If I'm reading Bluegrass correctly, it's that our ceiling is higher with Bagley but our floor is also lower. Basically, Bagley will help you win the tourney or be the reason you flame out sooner than expected.

I understand the point and kinda agree with it (ceiling higher/floor lower), but given Coach K is building teams for tournaments and not the reg season, I'll take our chances with Bags.

[sagegrouse]

If I'm reading Bluegrass correctly, it's that our ceiling is higher with Bagley but our floor is also lower. Basically, Bagley will help you win the tourney or be the reason you flame out sooner than expected.

I understand the point and kinda agree with it (ceiling higher/floor lower), but given Coach K is building teams for tournaments and not the reg season, I'll take our chances with Bags.

Just a couple of things would help his play immensely -- learning to pass to the open shooter on the three-point line when double-teamed inside. And, improve on some basic defensive coverage moves on the wing and in the corner.

[El_Diablo]

Bagley is a willing passer (he gets more assists than Trent) but is clearly asked to attack when gets the ball close to the basket...probably because he's hitting over 60% from the floor for the season. Regardless, he only took 9 shots last night--NINE--in 36 minutes (include a tip-in and at least one alley-oop).

For him to call Bagley selfish on national TV and say that he is just playing for himself rather than the team is completely out of line. Dakich can pound sand.

[CDu]

Just a couple of things would help his play immensely -- learning to pass to the open shooter on the three-point line when double-teamed inside. And, improve on some basic defensive coverage moves on the wing and in the corner.

I actually thought he looked pretty darn good defensively in the second half last night. I think Dakich built a talking point and was looking for ways to illustrate it, so he highlighted those instances where Bagley made a miscue. But for the most part, Bagley was very good defensively last night, as was the team.

And offensively, Bagley wasn't the problem. He was uber-efficient. The problem was that our perimeter guys were sloppy with the ball (13 turnovers by Allen, Duval, and Trent) and weren't making shots (6-18 by Allen and 1-7 by Trent, and of course the missed front end FT by Duval).

If we get even a remotely average shooting night from Allen or Trent, or if our perimeter guys didn't turn the ball over so much, we win that game. Probably comfortably.

Nothing about last night's game warranted the comments Dakich made. It was a ridiculous and unfair line of commentary.

[Jeffrey]

Just a couple of things would help his play immensely -- learning to pass to the open shooter on the three-point line when double-teamed inside.

IIRC, Bagley knows how to do that and has done it many times this season. What we do not know is what K has instructed him to do. I'm hoping it's not to have Duval shoot the 3.

[OZ]

That's what I meant by threes are "hit or miss." The same could be true of last night. If we hit our average, that's about 9 more points, giving us a 116 adjusted offense or so. Not great, but not horrible.

In my humble opinion and limited expertise, shooting is not only a special talent; but a shooter's success also involves a degree of the mental ( confidence, readiness and clarity). MY perception is that when Bagley is in the game, Trent and Allen often seem caught in that moment of indecision... do I shoot or pass it inside? A number of times I have found myself yelling at empty space when Allen and/or Trent would have a clear shot, but would hesitate (even for a spilt second) or throw an errant pass, trying to go inside. What I saw in the MSU game and the four without Bagley was a Trent and Allen who were clear on their role and non-hesitant with their shot. Perhaps the offense needs to establish Allen and Trent more as a priority and not always looking inside.

[Tripping William]

Nothing about last night's game warranted the comments Dakich made. It was a ridiculous and unfair line of commentary.

I think it has been building with Dakich for a while. I was listening to him call some random Big 10+4 game a week or so ago, and he started in on Bagley (especially his defense) during that game. Took a major swipe at Jabari Parker while he was at it (paraphrasing, but pretty close: "the worst defensive player I have ever seen among 'good' players").

Of course, this is a dude who didn't realize until this past weekend that Chris Farley died (http://thebiglead.com/2018/02/24/dan-dakich-chris-farley/) . . . . more than 20 years ago!

[El_Diablo]

I actually thought he looked pretty darn good defensively in the second half last night. I think Dakich built a talking point and was looking for ways to illustrate it, so he highlighted those instances where Bagley made a miscue. But for the most part, Bagley was very good defensively last night, as was the team.

And offensively, Bagley wasn't the problem. He was uber-efficient. The problem was that our perimeter guys were sloppy with the ball (13 turnovers by Allen, Duval, and Trent) and weren't making shots (6-18 by Allen and 1-7 by Trent, and of course the missed front end FT by Duval).

If we get even a remotely average shooting night from Allen or Trent, or if our perimeter guys didn't turn the ball over so much, we win that game. Probably comfortably.

Nothing about last night's game warranted the comments Dakich made. It was a ridiculous and unfair line of commentary.

Yeah, I thought he generally looked fine on defense. The criticism Dakich had about Bagley's "brain being where his body is" was also pretty asinine. On that play, he closed out on the shooter and had to stay on him longer than he should have because the guard failed to rotate. On replay, you can see Trent sliding over slowly (arriving just after the pass to the corner was made) rather than aggressively moving to bump Bagley down to the corner. Bagley was pretty much hung out to dry there--what was he supposed to do, abandon the guy with the ball to protect the corner?--but Dakich fails to recognize that little nuance and just launches into more criticism without a peep about Trent's contribution to that breakdown. Again, Dakich can pound sand.

[Ian]

Fairly low? Bagley has made over 60% of his shots this season. Who do we have who has done significantly better?

Many of these off offensive rebound. We're specifically talking about his post ups. Which he doesn't shoot nearly as high, and the number of times we turn the ball over trying to set up those shots makes them an inefficient way to score.

[jv001]

Yeah, I thought he generally looked fine on defense. The criticism Dakich had about Bagley's "brain being where his body is" was also pretty asinine. On that play, he closed out on the shooter and had to stay on him longer than he should have because the guard failed to rotate. On replay, you can see Trent sliding over slowly (arriving just after the pass to the corner was made) rather than aggressively moving to bump Bagley down to the corner. Bagley was pretty much hung out to dry there--what was he supposed to do, abandon the guy with the ball to protect the corner?--but Dakich fails to recognize that little nuance and just launches into more criticism without a peep about Trent's contribution to that breakdown. Again, Dakich can pound sand.

I wonder if Dakich realizes that Duke's defense was really good in both games that Marvin played in since his injury? Yes, VT hit some corner 3s last night and maybe one or two may have been Marvin's fault. However, I believe it was because of our guard not rotating quick enough. Marvin's pretty quick and really long, but he's not Spider Man. Well, maybe he's his cousin. Dakich is one of a long line of media types that tries to sensationalize every chance he gets. My only concern is when the offense slows down when we post put MBIII and when the guards turn it over trying to get the ball into him when he's well covered. Not all of this is on Marvin and the guards in my opinion. GoDuke!

[AtlDuke72]

Many of these off offensive rebound. We're specifically talking about his post ups. Which he doesn't shoot nearly as high, and the number of times we turn the ball over trying to set up those shots makes them an inefficient way to score.

I have to blow the horn on this one. Are you also going to take lay ups or dunks out of the statistics for other players to see how efficient that they are shooting the ball ? Blaming Bagley for turnovers trying to get him the ball ? Good luck figuring that one out. Bottom line is that the guy is terrific and it is not his fault that the guards could not throw it in the ocean last night.

[Ian]

Bagley did make some bad plays on defense, but his defense was fine overall, certainly wasn't some glaring weakness. Duke played well enough defensively to win.

[Ian]

I have to blow the horn on this one. Are you also going to take lay ups or dunks out of the statistics for other players to see how efficient that they are shooting the ball ? Blaming Bagley for turnovers trying to get him the ball ? Good luck figuring that one out. Bottom line is that the guy is terrific and it is not his fault that the guards could not throw it in the ocean last night.

I'm not blaming him, I'm blaming the offensive scheme. It's not his fault that we keeping turning the ball over trying to get him post ups (although he is partially at fault because he has trouble holding position against stronger players). But at some point we need to stop featuring getting him postups as the primary offense when it keeps happening.

[Jeffrey]

Many of these off offensive rebound. We're specifically talking about his post ups. Which he doesn't shoot nearly as high, and the number of times we turn the ball over trying to set up those shots makes them an inefficient way to score.

We clearly disagree. I've provided statistics to support my belief, please do the same.

[jv001]

Two other comments that Dakich made last night: He said Duke and Uncheat are the two best college basketball programs in the country. Well, he got one correct but I don't guess he knows the other built it's program on years and years of cheating.

I muted the sound when he was raving about Coach K talking to the refs, "why are they going over to him". All the while Coach Williams was roaming the sideline like a crazy man and he said nothing about that. I had enough of his rambling by then. The silence was great. Well not the sounds coming from me where I yelled at the TV.:cool: GoDuke!

[devilsadvocate85]

He harshly criticized the officials and by extension Coach K for their communication during the game (multiple times). Later in the game praised Buzz Williams for his communication with officials that supposedly lead to a 3-second call against Wendell Carter, Jr. He also praised William's statement to their crowd which included the caveat "regardless of what has happened" or something to that effect, which was essentially a backhanded way of saying "regardless of how poor the officiating has been". And I have no doubt that was exactly how it was meant.

Clearly another broadcaster with an ax to grind for some reason.

[Ian]

We clearly disagree. I've provided statistics to support my belief, please do the same.

According to Synergy Sports he shoots over 70% on his non-post up shots. You can extrapolate that into what he shoots on post ups to get his overall at around 60%

[ChillinDuke]

I actually thought he looked pretty darn good defensively in the second half last night. I think Dakich built a talking point and was looking for ways to illustrate it, so he highlighted those instances where Bagley made a miscue. But for the most part, Bagley was very good defensively last night, as was the team.

And offensively, Bagley wasn't the problem. He was uber-efficient. The problem was that our perimeter guys were sloppy with the ball (13 turnovers by Allen, Duval, and Trent) and weren't making shots (6-18 by Allen and 1-7 by Trent, and of course the missed front end FT by Duval).

If we get even a remotely average shooting night from Allen or Trent, or if our perimeter guys didn't turn the ball over so much, we win that game. Probably comfortably.

Nothing about last night's game warranted the comments Dakich made. It was a ridiculous and unfair line of commentary.

I agree with CDu.

I will also offer that I wouldn't characterize Bagley as a "black hole," but I would characterize him as "ball sticky." The ball sticks when it goes to him. He is a willing passer and apparent team player - but he's still in high school mode of "I can do whatever I want." Well, he could for a while in college. But this is the time of year that teams and players "level up" and they've learned about his preferences and tendencies.

Part of the reason Duke played so well recently, to my eye, was we hit a new level in terms of tempo IMO. Allen and Trent started letting things fly without thinking so much. Carter started making his moves much more decisively. And Duval actually slowed down, which helped us cut down on the driver-with-no-plan sloppiness.

Bagley needs to make that same adjustment. He waits too long on the entry feed, allows the double to come, then waits too long to pass. And it bogs down the offense for a 5-second stretch every time this happens, which is not all the time. But it happens enough times per game to lose by 1 on basically a buzzer beater at Virginia Tech.

It's fixable, for sure. But he (and Coach) needs to fix it. The truly great players are able to make these adjustments relatively quickly with the right coaching. At least I like to think so.

- Chillin

[jv001]

According to Synergy Sports he shoots over 70% on his non-post up shots. You can extrapolate that into what he shoots on post ups to get his overall at around 60%

Wow, if that's correct, the post up numbers are not so positive. Good catch. GoDuke!

[jv001]

I agree with CDu.

I will also offer that I wouldn't characterize Bagley as a "black hole," but I would characterize him as "ball sticky." The ball sticks when it goes to him. He is a willing passer and apparent team player - but he's still in high school mode of "I can do whatever I want." Well, he could for a while in college. But this is the time of year that teams and players "level up" and they've learned about his preferences and tendencies.

Part of the reason Duke played so well recently, to my eye, was we hit a new level in terms of tempo IMO. Allen and Trent started letting things fly without thinking so much. Carter started making his moves much more decisively. And Duval actually slowed down, which helped us cut down on the driver-with-no-plan sloppiness.

Bagley needs to make that same adjustment. He waits too long on the entry feed, allows the double to come, then waits too long to pass. And it bogs down the offense for a 5-second stretch every time this happens, which is not all the time. But it happens enough times per game to lose by 1 on basically a buzzer beater at Virginia Tech.

It's fixable, for sure. But he (and Coach) needs to fix it. The truly great players are able to make these adjustments relatively quickly with the right coaching. At least I like to think so.

- Chillin


I guess this is what I've been saying but haven't said it as well as Chillin. Good post. GoDuke!

[Kfanarmy]

He harshly criticized the officials and by extension Coach K for their communication during the game (multiple times). Later in the game praised Buzz Williams for his communication with officials that supposedly lead to a 3-second call against Wendell Carter, Jr. He also praised William's statement to their crowd which included the caveat "regardless of what has happened" or something to that effect, which was essentially a backhanded way of saying "regardless of how poor the officiating has been". And I have no doubt that was exactly how it was meant.

Clearly another broadcaster with an ax to grind for some reason.

I am a pessimist by nature. When I saw Buzz grabbing the microphone, my immediate thought was that he was intentionally trying to freeze Allen...The students had been chanting curse words the entire game. Allen missed the free throw immediately thereafter.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I am a pessimist by nature. When I saw Buzz grabbing the microphone, my immediate thought was that he was intentionally trying to freeze Allen...The students had been chanting curse words the entire game. Allen missed the free throw immediately thereafter.

I thought it was a very classy move by Buzz. Had Coach K done the same thing, we'd be arguing how the GOAT did another classy, high character move.

I like Buzz. His teams play hard. He can outcoach some very good coaches.

[FerryFor50]

I agree with CDu.

I will also offer that I wouldn't characterize Bagley as a "black hole," but I would characterize him as "ball sticky." The ball sticks when it goes to him. He is a willing passer and apparent team player - but he's still in high school mode of "I can do whatever I want." Well, he could for a while in college. But this is the time of year that teams and players "level up" and they've learned about his preferences and tendencies.

Part of the reason Duke played so well recently, to my eye, was we hit a new level in terms of tempo IMO. Allen and Trent started letting things fly without thinking so much. Carter started making his moves much more decisively. And Duval actually slowed down, which helped us cut down on the driver-with-no-plan sloppiness.

Bagley needs to make that same adjustment. He waits too long on the entry feed, allows the double to come, then waits too long to pass. And it bogs down the offense for a 5-second stretch every time this happens, which is not all the time. But it happens enough times per game to lose by 1 on basically a buzzer beater at Virginia Tech.

It's fixable, for sure. But he (and Coach) needs to fix it. The truly great players are able to make these adjustments relatively quickly with the right coaching. At least I like to think so.

- Chillin

What I've noticed with Bagley is that he's a pretty good passer in the post when he's feeding Carter or Bolden when defenders collapse on him. But where he could get better is recognizing double teams and passing out of them to open shooters, or kicking the ball out quickly after an offensive board, or starting the break faster on a defensive board. I'd like to see him add a bit of Zoubek and Kevin Love to his game.

[DukieInKansas]

Some of the tweets in this article are pretty humorous regarding Mr. Dakich. http://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/02/espn-dan-dakich-marvin-bagley-selfish-rant-duke-virginia-tech-video-bridges-college-basketball

[robed deity]

I am a pessimist by nature. When I saw Buzz grabbing the microphone, my immediate thought was that he was intentionally trying to freeze Allen...The students had been chanting curse words the entire game. Allen missed the free throw immediately thereafter.

I immediately thought the same, and I'm not even sure that's being pessimistic or cynical.

[Pghdukie]

Can't recall - Did Buzz change his shirt at halftime ? I also thought grabbing the mic was a classy move. He only spoke a few seconds. Enough to get his point across

[Jeffrey]

According to Synergy Sports he shoots over 70% on his non-post up shots. You can extrapolate that into what he shoots on post ups to get his overall at around 60%

So, you're estimating his post ups in the low 50's? If you then factor in how many of his post up misses he rebounds and subsequently scores, then why is that an inefficient way to score?

[Ian]

So, you're estimating his post ups in the low 50's? If you then factor in how many of his post up misses he rebounds and subsequently scores, then why is that an inefficient way to score?

Because we turn the ball over a lot trying to get to ball to him. And he can rebound misses from other players too so I don't see how that changes the equation.

[summerwind03]

I thought it was a very classy move by Buzz. Had Coach K done the same thing, we'd be arguing how the GOAT did another classy, high character move.

I like Buzz. His teams play hard. He can outcoach some very good coaches.

Anyone else remember years ago when Coach K grabbed the microphone and yelled, "Stop saying 'You suck [appropriate nickname for Richard Papparo]'"?

[SupaDave]

No so long ago in a galaxy not too far away, Coach K introduced the phrase "JJ watching" and it was in reference to the fact that once JJ got the ball everyone would forget their assignments waiting to see what JJ was gonna do. In a sense it seems to have reinvented itself with Bagley. The problem in this case however is the level of talent surrounding him.

[COYS]

So, you're estimating his post ups in the low 50's? If you then factor in how many of his post up misses he rebounds and subsequently scores, then why is that an inefficient way to score?

This is slightly off topic, but this is part of the reason I'm not a huge fan of our offense when rely heavily on post ups. A lot has to happen for a post up to go right. The post player has to get open. A teammate must make a good entry pass. The post player has to receive the ball in a good spot on the court. The post player has to read the defense correctly while making his move. He has to then hit the shot. And in the end, it's only worth 2 points (and possible a foul against the other team). Interestingly enough, I sometimes think smaller teams are better at taking away our post up game than bigger teams because those teams play more guards who tend to be better at guarding on the perimeter and denying entry passes than bigger teams. The 2008 Duke team comes to mind as a team that was tiny (relatively speaking) but played excellent defense even against big teams by denying entry passes amazingly well.

Don't get me wrong, having two players who are capable of scoring in the post is a massive luxury for our offense. It definitely should be part of our offensive plan every game. Both Wendell and Marvin are capable of scoring even when well-guarded. For an offense to be elite, it has to have guys who can make difficult shots. But post ups require a lot of things to go right in order to be efficient plays. It is not remotely surprising that Marvin is more efficient on lobs, fast-breaks, or even offensive put-backs than he is on pure post-ups. And I hope that we see a little more movement and better spacing on our offense so that we can get Marvin the ball off of drives and other actions to keep things varied.

[wavedukefan70s]

I am a pessimist by nature. When I saw Buzz grabbing the microphone, my immediate thought was that he was intentionally trying to freeze Allen...The students had been chanting curse words the entire game. Allen missed the free throw immediately thereafter.

I said the same thing to my wife.

[wavedukefan70s]

Can't recall - Did Buzz change his shirt at halftime ? I also thought grabbing the mic was a classy move. He only spoke a few seconds. Enough to get his point across

No the great and honorable Dakich pointed that out.between berating the officials for talking to coach k and educating the audience about the defense v.tech needed to play.😐

[BD80]

I was amused by Dakich's comment with respect for being new to the ESPN coverage of Duke; he said something to the effect of: "Do I have to say that Duke does no wrong?"

The play-by-play guy took that as a slam against Jay Bilas, the regular color guy, to which Dakich responded "that's not who I was referring to."

In my mind he clearly meant Dickie V. I found it amusing. It also seemed that he meant it as a joke, but mid-course, realized that it was more mean-spirited than he intended.

To me, Dakich is not a trained broadcaster, and calls games the way he would carry on a conversation at a bar among friends watching a game. He knows the game and makes cogent comments, but he speaks in absolutes when he is referring to trends or tendencies.

Marvin was NOT the problem last night. Sure he could have played better, but everyone except maybe Wendell could have played better. Our guards were just atrocious with the ball. ATROCIOUS!

Grayson looked like freshman Bobby Hurley with a few passes - including an attempt at a half-court lob for an alley-oop, and a couple of the laziest passes you will ever see by a Duke player.

How is MBIII supposed to kick the ball back out for a 3 when the perimeter players are standing still, providing no passing lane for a return pass? The only player who relocated was O'Connell, and Dakich made a special point of commending the effort.

[wavedukefan70s]

I like Len Elmore better.thats saying a lot.

[KandG]

I will also offer that I wouldn't characterize Bagley as a "black hole," but I would characterize him as "ball sticky." The ball sticks when it goes to him. He is a willing passer and apparent team player - but he's still in high school mode of "I can do whatever I want." Well, he could for a while in college. But this is the time of year that teams and players "level up" and they've learned about his preferences and tendencies.

Part of the reason Duke played so well recently, to my eye, was we hit a new level in terms of tempo IMO. Allen and Trent started letting things fly without thinking so much. Carter started making his moves much more decisively. And Duval actually slowed down, which helped us cut down on the driver-with-no-plan sloppiness.

Bagley needs to make that same adjustment. He waits too long on the entry feed, allows the double to come, then waits too long to pass. And it bogs down the offense for a 5-second stretch every time this happens, which is not all the time. But it happens enough times per game to lose by 1 on basically a buzzer beater at Virginia Tech.


- Chillin

In defense of Bagley, Carter has these same tendencies -- I'd argue he's even slower at times with the ball because he takes a while to feel the defender, decide on his action with the ball, and then ends up drawing a double and forcing a post move over pressure. The difference is that we got to see Carter improve when he played without Bagley in this recent stretch of games. Also, Carter can shoot with both his right and left hands so he gives the defense more to think about. Bagley's extreme one-handedness makes his "ball-stickiness" look worse.

It hasn't helped Marvin that we've slowed down our pace a lot, given that I think he really benefits from having space to run and fly toward the rim, whether he's making a move toward the basket or rebounding someone's miss in transition. But I have faith in his ability to get back to where he was early in the season once his conditioning improves and the coaching staff comes up with some wrinkles to get him better opportunities to attack.

As for Bagley's defense, I think he just hasn't learned to communicate as well as Javin or even Bolden when it comes to players moving around in the zone, but in the second half last night, he was much better. He actually defends in space better than Carter or even Javin when it comes to confronting a smaller, quicker player one-on-one, but Carter has the advantage of a larger wingspan close to the basket. Those extra inches do make a difference between a shot block/deflection and a futile contest (and will likely ding Bagley a bit in the draft).

As for Bagley's character, no one here takes Dakich seriously. For what it's worth, Jonathan Alexander of the News-Observer totally disagrees with the Dakich character-slam (https://twitter.com/jonmalexander/status/968293057136414720) of MB III:

Jonathan M Alexander‏
@jonmalexander

That's just one guy's opinion. I don't know much about him or whether he has spoken with Bagley and I didn't hear it. But I'd disagree based on my observations of covering him. One of of the most humble players I've ever interviewed.

Jason Tucker‏
@bluedevilnc

Replying to @jonmalexander
I would love to hear your thoughts on that. Just found out it was Dan Dakich

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I thought it was a very classy move by Buzz. Had Coach K done the same thing, we'd be arguing how the GOAT did another classy, high character move.

I like Buzz. His teams play hard. He can outcoach some very good coaches.

Put me in this camp. If he hadn't done this, he's Gary Williams.

[Billy Dat]

To me, Dakich is not a trained broadcaster, and calls games the way he would carry on a conversation at a bar among friends watching a game. He knows the game and makes cogent comments, but he speaks in absolutes when he is referring to trends or tendencies.

When's the last time Dakich made national headlines? His idiotic comments generated all kinds of responses, tweets, posts, hot takes and attention. In the modern media landscape, score one for Dakich. Considering the trend of multiple sportscasters doing one game (ala the College Football National Title game) so that the listener could select their preferred level of insight, bias and "bar conversation", I'd say big Dan is just trying to keep himself relevant.

[Tripping William]

When's the last time Dakich made national headlines?

March 22, 1984?

[Billy Dat]

March 22, 1984?

I was going to say when "A Season on the Brink" was published. I didn't realize he was also a sports radio host, that's not exactly the land of the even keeled. He and K are (seem to be) pretty good friends going back to Indiana...I think he probably thinks he can spout off with little fear of offending people he really needs access to who likely brush it off as showbiz.

[HokieEngineer]

I thought it was a very classy move by Buzz. Had Coach K done the same thing, we'd be arguing how the GOAT did another classy, high character move.

I like Buzz. His teams play hard. He can outcoach some very good coaches.

To be fair, I don't think Buzz had a choice in the matter. After the foul call to send Allen to the line, there was a plastic cup-shaped horn thrown on the court. I suspect the officials told him that he needed to get the crowd under control or they were going to assess a technical foul. He chose his words to avoid antagonizing the officials (too much) while still making his point. (It was, in general, a poorly officiated contest.)

[dyedwab]

https://twitter.com/MB3FIVE/status/968568980901384192

[Jeffrey]

And he can rebound misses from other players too so I don't see how that changes the equation.

I'm an expert at missing shots and strongly believe the shooter is the first to know they've missed and where the ball is heading. IMO, that knowledge, proximity, and Bagley's hops enable him to rebound a significantly higher percentage of his own post misses.

[English]

It looks like Marvin Bagley has found out what Dakich said about him
https://twitter.com/MB3FIVE/status/968568980901384192

So has his brother...https://twitter.com/bagleymarcus23/status/968306877925748741

[Ian]

I'm an expert at missing shots and strongly believe the shooter is the first to know they've missed and where the ball is heading. IMO, that knowledge, proximity, and Bagley's hops enable him to rebound a significantly higher percentage of his own post misses.

I hope you hold yourself to the same standard you held me to and provide numbers to back up this claim.

[Jeffrey]

I hope you hold yourself to the same standard you held me to and provide numbers to back up this claim.

Must admit, I can't, I've missed so many shots that I've completely lost track.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

https://twitter.com/MB3FIVE/status/968568980901384192

I must be old. I still can't believe that Tweets are newsworthy. I recognize it is true, it just baffles me.

Sigh

[Rich]

I must be old. I still can't believe that Tweets are newsworthy. I recognize it is true, it just baffles me.

Sigh

Without getting all PBB, it is our White House's #1 form of communication so you better get with the program soon! :eek:

[PackMan97]

I must be old. I still can't believe that Tweets are newsworthy. I recognize it is true, it just baffles me.

Sigh

Somewhere out there is an old curmudgeon complaining about books, newspapers and television.

[Devilwin]

Dakich is a loud mouthed intemperate moron in my book. To say that about an 18 year old kid on national tv is beyond the pale. And to say we are better without one of the best talents in college basketball is ludicrous. I will say, that sometimes they are looking to force things when nothing is there. Turnovers played a monstrously high reason on why we lost last night. That, and the fact our three point shooting not good right now, plus add in some of the worst officiating I've ever seen, and you get last night's result. But blaming Bags is silly, to say the least.

[gam7]

I can tell in 18 seconds that it is no accident that a guy who makes snap judgments about players based on 18 minutes of play is no longer coaching.

[devildeac]

Somewhere out there is an old curmudgeon complaining about books, newspapers and television.

Personal attack on fellow poster. Upon (incompetent, inconsistent, blind and biased) further review, this will be an F1 designation, meaning 2 shots and the beer, err, ball.

(Besides, you omitted the stone tablet reference.)

:p

[kako]

I've commented on Dakich earlier this season and will not rehash. So I suggest to add 2P: Dakich is an idiot.

Bagley's O - a primary option in the offense is to get him the ball down low and let him attempt to score. Could he learn to pass better of of a double team? Yes, and I'm guessing the staff is working on that with him. But his role is an athletic post scorer (same role as Carter, though they go about it in different ways). I have no problem with him offensively. His numbers show that, as he's only had one poor shooting game all season vs. ND. Duke will generally better with him than without him. Oh, and let's also not forget the O-rebounds, either. And his FTs are coming around. He hasn't had a bad day at the line in many games.

Bagley's D - it could be that his being out while the team committed to zone limited his development in the zone. He wasn't awful last night, mind you. But yes, there are definite areas of improvement. The whole team is still basically learning zone. They've done well sometimes in the past few games. Last night was not as good as other games, but it still wasn't terrible. I trust Bagley will grow. In the meantime, they can sub in Bolden or DeLaurier, or even White as needed. At a minimum, that's a lot of fouls to have on the front line.

Overall I believe Duke wants him in the game, but now it's been shown that Duke doesn't absolutely need him to win. That's good in my book.

Final thought - what if there had been just a bit more time on the clock at the end? Bagley would have performed a great Lorenzo Charles impression. What if, what if, yeah yeah. But still, where would the conversation be now?

9F

[RPS]

My $.02.

In the NBA, post-ups have diminished dramatically (https://nbamath.com/the-last-of-the-nbas-post-up-scorers/) because they are so inefficient (https://stats.nba.com/teams/playtype-post-up/). Post-ups there tend to be a late-in-the-shot-clock maneuver when all else has broken down.

In college, where there are more and bigger mismatches, post-ups are less inefficient. Players like Carter and Bagley can be very effective posting up, especially because the mismatches are often very large. But you still don't want to focus there. Not only are other options more efficient, post-ups can stagnate an offense.

This issue is an especially difficult and complicated one for Duke because we have two of the best post-up players in college basketball, those players have little experience kicking the ball out from the post (the mismatches in high school were ginormous), because two post players at a time inhibits ball movement, because ball movement is so crucial for Duke without great traditional point guard play, and because there are often only two good three-point shooters on the floor. If you factor-in Trent's tendency to freeze the ball and Duval's score-first mentality, we can readily become far easier to defend than we ought to be.

Bottom line: I'd like to see a lot more ball movement from everyone.

[Furniture]

So has his brother...https://twitter.com/bagleymarcus23/status/968306877925748741


The brotherhood is is coming to his defense..


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/938297810813968385/O4K8vqoz_x96.jpg
(https://mobile.twitter.com/1Tyus)
Tyus Jones (https://mobile.twitter.com/1Tyus)@1Tyus (https://mobile.twitter.com/1Tyus)-7h
(https://mobile.twitter.com/1Tyus/status/968579636773896192)Don’t worry about him lil bro! It comes with the territory.. just go out there, dominate and win! That silences em all!

[Furniture]

I thought it was a very classy move by Buzz. Had Coach K done the same thing, we'd be arguing how the GOAT did another classy, high character move.

I like Buzz. His teams play hard. He can outcoach some very good coaches.

It was an intentional freeze. No doubt in my mind. Grayson has been playing through this all year.....

[kAzE]

Yes, to a degree.

I believe we had better "team" basketball when Bagley was out. I know stats likely won't show it (they will likely show our assist rating was probably the same).

But visually, I liked it better. Whenever the ball went to Bagley, it was a black hole (or at least felt like it). I don't think he's a selfish player; I just think he's been taught like that. But as teams now know how to guard Bagley (1. play amazing denial defense in the post. 2. Double him ASAP when he gets the ball. 3. Double team the post so Bagley doesn't get rebounds), Bagley needs to adjust. And he hasn't.

Listen, this isn't a "I wish Bagley wasn't on our team". I love him on our team! He's an amazing talent. I just wish he read the defense better and didn't always look to score. Yesterday, when VT played Bagley really well, he should have adjusted.

As for his defense, yes, he's not a good defender (expect rebounding). He is the weakest link in the zone. And in M2M, he's a disaster.

I don't understand how he is so bad at defense . . . he's the quickest 6'11" guy ever and has decent length. If you told me that and I had never seen him play, I'd think he's All-ACC defensive team material.

[JetpackJesus]

I haven't back read the whole thread, so I'm probably repeating someone else, but my biggest problem with Dakich was the commentary about the officials talking to K when he called time out. That was actually them doing their jobs. Otherwise, they'd just be Valentine.

[BigWayne]

I haven't back read the whole thread, so I'm probably repeating someone else, but my biggest problem with Dakich was the commentary about the officials talking to K when he called time out. That was actually them doing their jobs. Otherwise, they'd just be Valentine.

That was a strange line of commentary, but it just went with the long stream of useless statements that came out of his mouth. Since I skip over all the intro parts and commercials, I was left wondering who this idiot is that is announcing the game.

[6th Man]

I don’t think Bagley is a selfish player. I think the problem is the team spends so much time trying to get him the ball when he’s in the game that they stop playing team offense. The ball moved so much better when MB3 was out with injury. So many bad passes into the post to him generate unforced turnovers. If Duke would just learn to play team offense again and take what’s given they would be way more lethal with MB3 in the game. Dakich was way out of line and off base in my opinion.

[JetpackJesus]

That was a strange line of commentary, but it just went with the long stream of useless statements that came out of his mouth. Since I skip over all the intro parts and commercials, I was left wondering who this idiot is that is announcing the game.

Same here. I was watching with my dad, and he asked, "who is this idiot who hates Duke?" I only learned who it was from this thread.

It was definitely some of the worst commentary I've ever heard.

[kAzE]

Same here. I was watching with my dad, and he asked, "who is this idiot who hates Duke?" I only learned who it was from this thread.

It was definitely some of the worst commentary I've ever heard.

I don't think Dakich hates Duke. He is just very outspoken and very opinionated. Why he would say those things about Marvin Bagley on national TV without ever meeting him or getting to know him at all is beyond me, but Dakich is going to Dakich. There's no reason to get THIS upset over it. He does this all the time. It is what it is.

I haven't met Bagley either, and I've only seen him in person once, it was the game vs. Indiana in Bloomington that we won 91-81. The one odd thing that I noticed about Bagley was that he warmed up by himself with headphones on while the rest of the team were talking and laughing and warming up together. Not sure there's much to take away from that, but I also can't completely deny that at least part of what Dakich said has some truth to it. It didn't come from nowhere.

The important thing is to not let this become a distraction or something that divides the locker room. But Dakich is probably the last thing on their minds. I have no doubts that everyone on this team is willing to do whatever is necessary to bring home #6.

[IFUSTABMEDOINOTBLEEDBLUE]

I absolutely agree with this. You don't bash a kid like that on national television because you think he's selfish and doesn't play defense. That was a pathetic ramble that had no place for a commentator.

Marvin is gonna have the last laugh in all of this anyway when he gets the big bucks of the NBA so my sympathy for him can only go so far. I m stoked he is on our team but this constant way a lot of posters on here constantly say "kid" on these forums to make a negative comment or observation seem [Redacted Text]. I thought Dakich was a bit hard on the Bagley but not in anyway inappropriate. I did not agree with his me me me lines but he is rather spot on when it came to other things such as his defensive acuity which is better than Jabari Parker but not many others I can recall. I just hate the deflection of criticism of play as long as its not personal with the tagline "kid". It makes us sound a bit wussy and I think our guys are flat out warriors who can handle it.

[53n206]

Early in the season our guards and Bagley lookd great with the high lob pass. Defenses have caught on to that. Now when the lob pass is made I shudder. "Black Hole" is an apt description. "Turnover Time" comes to mind. Surely our coaches can come up with some effective alternative. Perhaps only lob when our big is open

[kAzE]

Early in the season our guards and Bagley lookd great with the high lob pass. Defenses have caught on to that. Now when the lob pass is made I shudder. "Black Hole" is an apt description. "Turnover Time" comes to mind. Surely our coaches can come up with some effective alternative. Perhaps only lob when our big is open

Bagley gets roughed up when trying to establish post position now. That's basically been the game plan against him since ACC play started. In the VA Tech game, he had no chance to get comfortable against Kerry Blackshear, who defended Bagley all game like it was a wrestling match. Bagley seems to have some trouble against stronger defenders at times.

[PeteZaHut]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think Greenberg gave the better explanation of what's going on when he said Duke is having trouble with spacing. When we have 2 big men on the court, they're both in the post, which means they're both effectively double-teamed. K seems to always wind up going to a smaller lineup at some point in the season. I think it's time for that.

[devilsadvocate85]

I think Duke could reduce the impact of crowded half court situations by speeding up and pushing for more transition opportunities. I think Allen & Duval are more effective in transition, and Bagley, Carter, DeLaurier can all run the floor.

[jv001]

Bagley gets roughed up when trying to establish post position now. That's basically been the game plan against him since ACC play started. In the VA Tech game, he had no chance to get comfortable against Kerry Blackshear, who defended Bagley all game like it was a wrestling match. Bagley seems to have some trouble against stronger defenders at times.

And Carter was undercut several times when he went up for a pass. Never called once. I think both of our bigs are getting rough treatment that's not called. GoDuke!

[Jeffrey]

I'm an expert at missing shots and strongly believe the shooter is the first to know they've missed and where the ball is heading. IMO, that knowledge, proximity, and Bagley's hops enable him to rebound a significantly higher percentage of his own post misses.


I hope you hold yourself to the same standard you held me to and provide numbers to back up this claim.

This addresses my proximity claim......

"The closer the shooter is to the basket the higher the offensive rebound ratio. Own rebounds are the main reason for that."

http://www.eyalshafran.com/offensive-rebounds.html

.... and, your stats clearly show Bagley is very likely to make the put-back.

[53n206]

Not Piston fan but amazed by rebounding of Lambeer and Rodman. Positioning and mass, but I think the more important of the two was position. Rodman was unbelievable. (Not sure of his political positions.)

[RPS]

And Carter was undercut several times when he went up for a pass. Never called once. I think both of our bigs are getting rough treatment that's not called.

Let's remember a much better alleged undercutting that was obviously not a foul.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Des6AXDPlWA

[Kfanarmy]

To be fair, I don't think Buzz had a choice in the matter. After the foul call to send Allen to the line, there was a plastic cup-shaped horn thrown on the court. I suspect the officials told him that he needed to get the crowd under control or they were going to assess a technical foul. He chose his words to avoid antagonizing the officials (too much) while still making his point. (It was, in general, a poorly officiated contest.)

I wasn't aware of the cup on the court. I withdraw my comment about the VT coach. The announcement still had the effect of freezing Allen on his subsequent free throw.

[weezie]

Not Piston fan but amazed by rebounding of Lambeer and Rodman. Positioning and mass, but I think the more important of the two was position. Rodman was unbelievable. (Not sure of his political positions.)

Rodman is a huge supporter of the Klingons.

[weezie]

I wasn't aware of the cup on the court...


I you ever meet a uva graduate who is also a sports fan, ask him/her what they think about the hokies.

I'm going to predict, "mouthbreathers" will be in the response, and that will be if the person responding has good manners.

Whoops, sorry HokieEngineer. it's those hoo fans, not me!

[HokieEngineer]

I wasn't aware of the cup on the court. I withdraw my comment about the VT coach. The announcement still had the effect of freezing Allen on his subsequent free throw.

It was actually a plastic megaphone rather than a cup, but your point about freezing the shooter was accurate. From that viewpoint, it was a great outcome. (Perhaps the old saying "ball don't lie" is true, because that was a weak foul call to begin with.)

[Bob Green]

It was actually a plastic megaphone rather than a cup, but your point about freezing the shooter was accurate. From that viewpoint, it was a great outcome. (Perhaps the old saying "ball don't lie" is true, because that was a weak foul call to begin with.)

There were certainly bad calls, weak calls and no calls both ways as the refs lost control of the game early on. What are your comments on Robinson hitting Allen in the neck with his right forearm followed by a left to the side of Allen's head:

Small scuffle (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/video?gameId=400986283)

Film don't lie. Robinson threw a punch. No call (actually they called a foul on Allen who definitely fouled Robinson). Robinson should have received a flagrant 2.

[devildeac]

There were certainly bad calls, weak calls and no calls both ways as the refs lost control of the game early on. What are your comments on Robinson hitting Allen in the neck with his right forearm followed by a left to the side of Allen's head:

Small scuffle (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/video?gameId=400986283)

Film don't lie. Robinson threw a punch. No call (actually they called a foul on Allen who definitely fouled Robinson). Robinson should have received a flagrant 2.


I missed most of the first half but I think there were some references to that play in chat. Guess those "fine and honest" refs who "might have missed a few calls" couldn't review that call, especially since Allen was the recipient of the contact. Maybe the acc office could take action on that (laughs hysterically and sarcastically).

:mad:

[Steven43]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think Greenberg gave the better explanation of what's going on when he said Duke is having trouble with spacing. When we have 2 big men on the court, they're both in the post, which means they're both effectively double-teamed. K seems to always wind up going to a smaller lineup at some point in the season. I think it's time for that.

Yeah, a two-big lineup seems like a completely outdated way to approach the game today. The NBA has gone away from it almost entirely. I think most college teams, if they haven’t already, will soon follow. A two-big lineup slows ball movement to a crawl, allows for easy double-teams near the basket, and still frees up enough defenders to effectively guard the 3-Point line. I just can’t see any upside to it. At all.

Just because we have bigs doesn’t mean we have to play them at the same time. Keep all three fresh by regularly rotating. Or maybe Bagley could learn to play a bit more like Justise on offense, while Carter and Bolden continue to play mostly with their back to the basket.

Bagley is going to have to learn to play mostly facing the basket if he wants to stick in the NBA. If not he will be Jahlil part two. Might as well start now. Too bad we won’t have this group of guys for another year. Then we might really have something. It might be too late to implement these changes at this point. But maybe not. I’m still cautiously optimistic about this team’s chances.

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, a two-big lineup seems like a completely outdated way to approach the game today. The NBA has gone away from it almost entirely. I think most college teams, if they haven’t already, will soon follow. A two-big lineup slows ball movement to a crawl, allows for easy double-teams near the basket, and still frees up enough defenders to effectively guard the 3-Point line. I just can’t see any upside to it. At all.

Just because we have bigs doesn’t mean we have to play them at the same time. Keep all three fresh by regularly rotating. Or maybe Bagley could learn to play a bit more like Justise on offense, while Carter and Bolden continue to play mostly with their back to the basket.

Bagley is going to have to learn to play mostly facing the basket if he wants to stick in the NBA. If not he will be Jahlil part two. Might as well start now. Too bad we won’t have this group of guys for another year. Then we might really have something. It might be too late to implement these changes at this point. But maybe not. I’m still cautiously optimistic about this team’s chances.

You're certainly correct about playing two bigs in the NBA. In college, though, it should still be viable because of offensive rebounding. (Offensive rebounding is why UNC still has success while playing two bigs over the years.) For the season, Duke has grabbed 39.5% of ORebs (#1 in the nation) and in ACC play, we've grabbed 36.3% of ORebs (#2 behind UNC). In the NBA, the best offensive rebounding team is OKC, who only grabs them at a 28.3% rate (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018.html#misc_stats::18), which would be anemic in college. The wide gap in offensive rebounding is one of the most cool and most key differences between NBA basketball and college basketball, with very important implications for how to build an offense in either league, how scary NBA athletes must be in transition, etc.

Anyway, getting back to the VaTech game. Our problem, therefore, was that not enough possessions advanced to the point where we could grab an OReb. We turned the ball over way too many times against a team that we were grabbing ORebs at a 42% rate against (and we were at 41% in the prior matchup in Cameron). If you can grab ORebs at a 40% rate and you can play great defense against an opponent, the only way you can lose is to do exactly what we did, which was to throw the ball away repeatedly for 18 turnovers (or 27% of possessions). We were just a silly, silly, silly team. A turnover is awful, but a turnover when you can just throw the ball up at the basket and get it back 40% of the time is just ridiculous.

Now, obviously the spacing issues had a huge effect on causing the turnovers. But what I'm getting at is that we need a few tweaks in order to create more spacing and reduce the turnovers rather than a complete overhaul of the 2-big system. We are still as of today ranked #2 in offense in kenpom. Tweaks, not overhaul.

[Ian]

You're certainly correct about playing two bigs in the NBA. In college, though, it should still be viable because of offensive rebounding. (Offensive rebounding is why UNC still has success while playing two bigs over the years.) For the season, Duke has grabbed 39.5% of ORebs (#1 in the nation) and in ACC play, we've grabbed 36.3% of ORebs (#2 behind UNC). In the NBA, the best offensive rebounding team is OKC, who only grabs them at a 28.3% rate (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018.html#misc_stats::18), which would be anemic in college. The wide gap in offensive rebounding is one of the most cool and most key differences between NBA basketball and college basketball, with very important implications for how to build an offense in either league, how scary NBA athletes must be in transition, etc.

Anyway, getting back to the VaTech game. Our problem, therefore, was that not enough possessions advanced to the point where we could grab an OReb. We turned the ball over way too many times against a team that we were grabbing ORebs at a 42% rate against (and we were at 41% in the prior matchup in Cameron). If you can grab ORebs at a 40% rate and you can play great defense against an opponent, the only way you can lose is to do exactly what we did, which was to throw the ball away repeatedly for 18 turnovers (or 27% of possessions). We were just a silly, silly, silly team. A turnover is awful, but a turnover when you can just throw the ball up at the basket and get it back 40% of the time is just ridiculous.

Now, obviously the spacing issues had a huge effect on causing the turnovers. But what I'm getting at is that we need a few tweaks in order to create more spacing and reduce the turnovers rather than a complete overhaul of the 2-big system. We are still as of today ranked #2 in offense in kenpom. Tweaks, not overhaul.

It just highlights that our best court has low basketball IQ. A backcourt with better awareness would understand that even a bad shot is preferred to a forced pass that becomes a turnover. How many times did we throw we jump in the air with no plan only to pass the ball right into the hands of the defender leading to a breakaway the other way? They should know if they're in trouble, throw it toward the basket, it just might go in, and if it doesn't we have a good chance to get it back.

[Troublemaker]

It just highlights that our best court has low basketball IQ. A backcourt with better awareness would understand that even a bad shot is preferred to a forced pass that becomes a turnover. How many times did we throw we jump in the air with no plan only to pass the ball right into the hands of the defender leading to a breakaway the other way? They should know if they're in trouble, throw it toward the basket, it just might go in, and if it doesn't we have a good chance to get it back.

You would hope that the coaches could be aware of this and drill it into the guards during timeouts as well. Unfortunately, I think everyone right now -- coaches and guards alike -- are prostrating themselves before the Temple of the Post-up. We have these two talented bigs and so we feel we MUST get them the ball inside, even if the opponent is packing the lane.

If we're going to approach it that way, though, we need to reduce Javin and Trevon's minutes as the 3rd perimeter player alongside Grayson and Gary and put in a shooter. Meaning Alex or possibly Justin Robinson. Javin and Trevon aren't being guarded. At least when Trevon was the PG (and I'm not arguing to go back to that), nobody on defense leaves the ballhandler. Defenses always guard the ball. But as an off-ball player now, it's just really bad. You want your off-ball guys to be able to shoot. When OKC had both Durant and Westbrook on the same team and playing together, they would surprisingly perform better on offense when Westbrook was the ball-handler during a play despite Durant being the better, more efficient player. But that's because when Durant was the ball-handler during a play, teams would leave Westbrook open to clog the lane. But Durant stretches the defense when it's the other way around.

That's going to be the biggest tweak we can make. Try to put 3 perimeter players on the court who can shoot as often as possible.

[dahntaysdawg]

https://accsports.com/acc-analytics/inside-playbook-duke-power-play-trevon-duval/

This article touches a little on what you guys are talking about.

[killerleft]

Dakich said:

“Bagley is all about Bagley. Honest to goodness, I can see in 18 minutes why Duke was able to go on a run when he was hurt. You hate to say that about a kid, but he is about himself. He gets the ball. It doesn’t come out. He doesn’t play defense. He’s a terrific talent, don’t get me wrong. But you could see real clear, real fast — and I’ll take all the shots that people want to give me — but you can see that he is about him.”

This is what this thread is about. I'd say it rises to the level of libel, although I know how hard it would be to prosecute the fellow who said it.

Of course, if one agrees that Bagley is indeed selfish, and is doing anything other than what Coach K wants him to do, that's a different matter. I concede that K would rather he never miss a shot, fail to snag a rebound, or miss a defensive assignment. But that isn't what Dakich was saying at all. He was doing a real good job of character assassination. Period.

[heartofgold]

Anyway, getting back to the VaTech game. Our problem, therefore, was that not enough possessions advanced to the point where we could grab an OReb. We turned the ball over way too many times against a team that we were grabbing ORebs at a 42% rate against (and we were at 41% in the prior matchup in Cameron). If you can grab ORebs at a 40% rate and you can play great defense against an opponent, the only way you can lose is to do exactly what we did, which was to throw the ball away repeatedly for 18 turnovers (or 27% of possessions). We were just a silly, silly, silly team. A turnover is awful, but a turnover when you can just throw the ball up at the basket and get it back 40% of the time is just ridiculous.




I completely agree with this. It's a mystery how keeping turnovers low needs to be the priority on every possession. It's disheartening to see Grayson make freshman like decisions that lead to the silly turnovers. If we could maintain our OReb rate high, and if we had Grayson and Gary reliably hitting from 3 and a modest threat from Carter and Bagley (I don't think we seen anything from Duval to suggest he will be a better than 30% 3-pt shooter this year) then shouldn't be the strategy be to find more 3 point shots? Does anybody have our OReb rate on 3 pt shot attempts?

[kako]

https://accsports.com/acc-analytics/inside-playbook-duke-power-play-trevon-duval/

This article touches a little on what you guys are talking about.

I saw this, too. Interesting article. Among the various areas, kind of puts the onus on Duval's lack of a consistent jumper. I do think the team could thrive at times if there were 3 viable outside shooters with 2 bigs inside. So the question would be less on Bagley/Carter/Bolden/DeLaurier and more on the guards for spacing. If the team went to a single big man at times (or pull out Carter for high ball screens as he could pop from 3), then bring in Duval's strengths. Different looks aren't a bad thing as they confuse defenses.

[RPS]

This is what this thread is about. I'd say it rises to the level of libel, although I know how hard it would be to prosecute the fellow who said it.Let's not get carried away. The First Amendment hasn't been repealed. Besides the definitional problem (libel is written defamation; slander is spoken), what Dakich said isn't defamatory in that it is protected opinion and, if it weren't opinion, because it doesn't meet the New York Times v. Sullivan "reckless disregard for truth" standard. Criticize Dakich all you want, but please...

[Hancock 4 Duke]

Our best offensive lineup, as far as fluidity and limitation of turnovers (at least at the eye-test level) has appeared to be (Bagley/Wendell)/Javin/Gray/Trent/Alex. Gray is by far our best playmaker, whether he is the one making the play or dishing it off last second. Bagley and Carter both have too young of hands to be in the game at the same time, especially with Trevon. Having a loaded potential of offensive firepower in one lineup would be great if we did not have to concede ball security.