MBB: Va Tech 64, Duke 63 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here. No bashing or venting.

[duke4ever19]

Put your post-game thoughts here. No bashing or venting.

Well, then I have nothing to say.

[subzero02]

Let's win 10 in a row...

[Neals384]

Good grief.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Just can't comprehend why Duval would be the one to get the ball there. Allen barely moved and I didn't even see Trent in the picture.

[weezie]

So, can't say anything about the excruciatingly poor refs?

[CDu]

Bad offense down the stretch. Awful execution down the stretch. Blew a winnable game. Disappointing. Gotta win Saturday now, regardless of UNC/Miami.

[sbroc012]

Do referees ever get embarrassed by their own performances?

All around that game was horrible. Everything.

[karmacoma]

DUMB is the name of our marching band. And that's not all.

[Wander]

I don't think I've ever cared less about a loss. Road game, desperate team, horrible "make up" call, they win because they airball their last shot so badly that it just happens to land in a VT player's hands. Whatever.

[Eternal Outlaw]

Does bashing include refs cause I'll take the strike if it is to say they sucked worse than the announcing

[proelitedota]

Put your post-game thoughts here. No bashing or venting.

For all those people who say that refs don't play a part in games. Care to say that now? I don't mind it just hope we get the same level of help in our final game.

[J4Kop99]

This team sure does find a bunch of interesting ways to lose. Hopefully they're getting it out of their system before March.

-I wonder if that was the actual inbounds play called in the TO.

[House G]

Just can't comprehend why Duval would be the one to get the ball there. Allen barely moved and I didn't even see Trent in the picture.

Bagley simply can’t make that play unless Allen guarded too well—and he wasn’t. Ballgame.

[scottdude8]

Lots of stuff had to go wrong for us to lose that game at the end, and it all did. Might affect our shot at a No. 1 seed but doesn’t affect the outlook of this team IMHO.

One thing I’m sore about is why’ve Duval got the ball off of the inbounds at the end. Especially since we had some time after the foul to give to reset things, I’m not sure why there wasn’t a clear directive for him not to get the ball and for anyone else to shoot the free throws. Ugh.

[gocanes0506]

Cant throw up a hundred bricks on the road. Cant turn the ball over as much. Cant throw the ball into your worst gaurd with the game on the line.

Is the most K has sought out the refs this season? Seems like it.

[53n206]

About as bad as any Duke game I've seen. Terrible offense. Does't seem the team is well coached. Yes- I know-- shooting slump--tired.

[SoCalDukeFan]

most of the game. Guess I was lucky.

Horrible refs.

SoCal

[ndkjr70]

You can say that the referees didn’t directly take that game away from Duke.

You’d be wrong, but you can say that.

[heyman25]

Duke beat themselves . Horrible passing 18 turnovers. Coaches need to work on team play. We were not good today. Very painful to watch how this team performs under adversity.

[rsvman]

Well, that went south in a hurry.

[slower]

SO glad that I don't watch these games live any more. I'm sure the usual predictive geniuses will expect an easy win against UNC.

[Dub]

Well at least we got to see a football game in late February. That was rough to watch. Need G. Trent to find his stroke again. He hits a couple of his normal shots and we win. Overall, I think this game will help prepare us for the NCAAs as more contact in the post is generally allowed. Not a backbreaking loss but I fully expected to win.

[dukefan_828]

IDC about refs we blew this one this team just doesnt want a number 1 seed i guess... WHY WHY WHY was duval the first look

[tulsuduke]

Critical misstep leaving Duval in the game when free throws were needed.

[Chard]

18 turnovers. End of story.

Hey, VT has a few scalps of top 10 teams this year.

[arnie]

Just can't comprehend why Duval would be the one to get the ball there. Allen barely moved and I didn't even see Trent in the picture.

Absolutely- all other teams make sure their top FT shooters get the ball in that situation. Extremely poor game management as there was no doubt Duval would miss. He cannot be the one with the ball in a situation like that.

[devildeac]

Carter was fouled. Incompetent and dishonest.

[jjredickrules]

I think in this game stall ball hurt us. Grayson held multiple offensive rebounds instead of taking or passing to open 3s. We had chances to toss a dagger but kept turning it over instead.

Was VT constantly shoving us inside? It looked like we were getting O-line blocked every time down. Could be wrong.

[Kjeffrey]

Bad offense down the stretch. Awful execution down the stretch. Blew a winnable game. Disappointing. Gotta win Saturday now, regardless of UNC/Miami.

And I am not sure the use of substitutions and timeouts was very good tonight either.

[kmspeaks]

Remember when freedom of movement was a thing? That was fun.

Watch ESPN froze up so I didn't see what happened between Carter grabbing the defensive rebound and then getting held on the ball going out of bounds on our end. We threw the ball into to Duval to shoot free throws??

[proelitedota]

Duke beat themselves . Horrible passing 18 turnovers. Coaches need to work on team play. We were not good today. Very painful to watch how this team performs under adversity.

No man. Refs beat us. Which is ok.

[WakeDevil]

As I said a month ago, this team will do well to make it to the second weekend.

This team is better without a certain person in the lineup.

[Wander]

Critical misstep leaving Duval in the game when free throws were needed.

Unfortunately, we don't have enough ball handlers to not have him in. His being in the game was the right choice.

But, yeah, we should have tried harder to get the ball into Grayson or Trent.

[Bluedog]

Just frustrating that it was an extremely winnable game and lost it. Need to practice passes to the post for the next several days and passing out of double teams. So many failed lobs, TOs, stall ball led to not even attempting wide open looks from good shooters, poor transition D... It's only one game luckily but should have been a W. I think we certainly can right the ship but that one hurts...

[karmacoma]

IDC about refs we blew this one this team just doesnt want a number 1 seed i guess... WHY WHY WHY was duval the first look

DUMB. That's the name of our marching band.

[Troublemaker]

As I wrote in the pre-game thread, the offense could lose the game for us. Just way too many turnovers.

It would be better for Grayson and Gary to combine to shoot 40 threes than to do what we did tonight in forcing the ball inside when the lane was so crowded. I hope people get that. The turnover is the worst outcome on offense. At least if you miss a three, you can get the offensive rebound and putback. Or kickout for a more open three.

The good news is that the defense was great again.

[dukebluesincebirth]

So, can't say anything about the excruciatingly poor refs?

We were absolutely screwed. Duke didn’t help themselves, but wow. How does buzz get to ice Grayson on the free throw to speak to the fans? VaTech should be charged a timeout for that. And Wendell clearly grabbed from behind on the late no call??? The was made for ESPN Duke loss setup. I hate Dan Dakich and I hate ESPN. BS.

[Bluedog]

Unfortunately, we don't have enough ball handlers to not have him in. His being in the game was the right choice.

But, yeah, we should have tried harder to get the ball into Grayson or Trent.

Alex?? I realize he didn't play much but I think he should have been subbed in for that exact situation.

I agree with above that we were trying to force the ball inside almost too much. I'd like to see more swing passes around the perimeter and shoot open looks when they're playing defense the way they did.

[karmacoma]

As I said a month ago, this team will do well to make it to the second weekend.

This team is better without a certain person in the lineup.

It's really hard to argue against this point right now.

[kshepinthehouse]

I think in this game stall ball hurt us. Grayson held multiple offensive rebounds instead of taking or passing to open 3s. We had chances to toss a dagger but kept turning it over instead.

Was VT constantly shoving us inside? It looked like we were getting O-line blocked every time down. Could be wrong.

Yea AOC was wide open for one of those. He hits a 3 and we probably win. Their defense was too good for stall ball.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Too many empty possessions down the stretch. Need to at least get shots on the rim.

Allen needs to find a way to get the ball on the late inbound play.

We played hard though. Bolden has really stepped up on both ends of the floor.

[arnie]

Unfortunately, we don't have enough ball handlers to not have him in. His being in the game was the right choice.

But, yeah, we should have tried harder to get the ball into Grayson or Trent.

Disagree with that comment. O’Connell, Trent and Allen need the ball in that situation. Hopefully the staff is paying attention.

[Mak P]

Duke beat themselves . Horrible passing 18 turnovers. Coaches need to work on team play. We were not good today. Very painful to watch how this team performs under adversity.

Which has gotten worse as the season went on. They were fine under adversity in the beginning, idk what's going on with this team now. It's like there's not enough balls to go around

One thing I'm noticing is this team playing the clock instead of to win when leading in a close game at the end. Holding the ball, no ball movement. You play to win, never play the clock

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Duval shouldn’t have been in the position to make free throws with 30 seconds left because he shouldn’t have been in the game. Huge error there, imo.

Additionally, Grayson got caught up in the moment on the last two possessions, which resulted in back-breaking turnovers.

After the AOC three, we went into stall-ball a bit too early, lost our poise, and lost the game.

If this is a lesson learned,, than maybe this will be some bitter medicine for us to take in the hopes that we don’t put ourselves in this position again.

[subzero02]

Duval shouldn't have been on the court for that inbounds pass... his foul shooting is too consistently bad in crunch time

[Danke Shane]

How many turnovers were the result of forced passes inside and lob attempts that backfired? And how many of those turnovers resulted in up tempo drives for VT?

Probably a 20 point swing in missed offense for us and eas(ier) offense for them.

[FerryFor50]

For all those people who say that refs don't play a part in games. Care to say that now? I don't mind it just hope we get the same level of help in our final game.

Yea this one was a pretty egregious display of officiating setting the tone. Complete wrestling match by VT in the post. Ticky tack calls on droves/shots. Duval’s 3rd and 4th were awful. Then the blatant missed call on Blackshear’s grab of Carter, the missed call on the final Allen 3... ugh.

Despite all that, all we needed was Duval to hit at least the front end of the one and one. ‪¯\_(ツ)_/¯‬

[CDu]

Unfortunately, we don't have enough ball handlers to not have him in. His being in the game was the right choice.

But, yeah, we should have tried harder to get the ball into Grayson or Trent.

We had three capable ballhandlers (Allen, Trent, Duval). We could have gone with Carter (better shooter than Duval) and sent him long and had any of those other three get the inbounds.

[dukelion]

So many chances to put them away that ended in bad turnovers.

Also criminal that Carter had 5 fg attempts against a team with one real big.

And Bagley looked winded often. Didn't get back on D on several occasions.

Disappointing loss to say the least.,,..but......they will come out in fire against UNCheat....mark my words.

[TNTDevil]

~snip~

Was VT constantly shoving us inside? It looked like we were getting O-line blocked every time down. Could be wrong.Yes. They dedicated man to getting into the legs/hips of our bigs and pushing them around.

[DukieInBrasil]

nice to know that absolutely anything can be done to Duke's big men in the post without a foul getting called.
Wouldn't have mattered if Carter or Trent had showed up today.
2 games in a row with absolutely putrid offense, after 4 games of very efficient offense.
It's a good thing the defense showed up, otherwise we woulda got blown out.

[FerryFor50]

Duval shouldn’t have been in the position to make free throws with 30 seconds left because he shouldn’t have been in the game. Huge error there, imo.

Additionally, Grayson got caught up in the moment on the last two possessions, which resulted in back-breaking turnovers.

After the AOC three, we went into stall-ball a bit too early, lost our poise, and lost the game.

If this is a lesson learned,, than maybe this will be some bitter medicine for us to take in the hopes that we don’t put ourselves in this position again.

One of those last turnovers was by Trent on a pass to Carter.

[Wildling]

I think we're all being a little hard on the kids tonight. It looked to me like they were gassed. The hustle plays and active zone defense wasn't there tonight. And we weren't hitting shots. We're going to lose to anyone when that happens.

Now we get 4 days of rest before we whip up on the cheaters :cool:

[Eternal Outlaw]

I think in this game stall ball hurt us. Grayson held multiple offensive rebounds instead of taking or passing to open 3s. We had chances to toss a dagger but kept turning it over instead.

Was VT constantly shoving us inside? It looked like we were getting O-line blocked every time down. Could be wrong.

Shoving, held, bumped, everything.

Sucks that we have 3 talented big men but college basketball has decided they don't give a crap about officiating post play.

[Dub]

Lol so now we’re back to blaming Bagley and Trevon for the loss. Some of you guys are classic. Grayson and Gary shot 5-22 from 3 (Gary going 1-7). Lots of fingers can be pointed but Trevon and MBIII shouldn’t get the blame. Oh well, guess the sky is falling again. Have a good night DBR.

[CDu]

We committed 18 turnovers and shot 29% from 3. And with a lead late, we made awful mistake after offensive mistake. The refs did not cost us this game. We just played really poorly on offense for the last 7 minutes of the game.

[Devilwin]

Terrible game by the ENTIRE team. No MOTM tonight. Let's just skip it, or give it to the VA Tech refs.

[InSpades]

Raise your hand if you knew Duval was going to miss that free throw... not only is Duval not a good free throw shooter... he's also not a clutch free throw shooter.

The refs were not good but that's not why we lost. Our offense was terrible for the last... oh say... 30 minutes of that game? Way too many turnovers. Rarely got any easy looks.

I'll never understand Duval getting the ball at the end there. We even sub'ed out a player before the inbounds pass (took Carter out who is a pretty good free throw shooter!). Could have put Alex in for Trevon but we didn't. Just doesn't make sense... you know they are going to foul.

[Furniture]

Só it’s definitely Duvals fault that Duke lost.

After all he made all Grayson’s tO’s.
He missed all of Gary’s shots.

[CoachJ10]

I hope K blisters the jokes that the ACC is letting officiate games. In a season where the refs are reaching an all time low, tonight was the worst.

Buzz Williams and his antics are going to wear thin, if they havent already.

Dan Dakich is a classless buffoon.

Tonight was the culmination of Duke haterade in full effect. Pathetic reffing, cheap antics by opposing coach and classless announcing. The trifecta of haterade.

[bluenorth]

There is a concept in refereeing known as the fantasy or phantom call. Officials are supposed to avoid making these types of calls. I would not want to be this any one of this crew once their supervisor grades tonight's performance. The refs must have felt sick when looking at the monitor to determine who got possession after Duval's missed FT, and could plainly see Carter being held.

Freshman mistake by Bagley to inbound to the first open player (Duval) he saw. He had time to look around and be patient.

[godins]

I sure am glad we don't have any more road games this year. The home cooking really threw our guys off, especially down the stretch. For those of you worried about this team making it to the second weekend, chill. Of course they could lose in the first two rounds. Any team could. But are you going to let this game sour what was, before today, a scintillating 5-game stretch of team basketball? It's fine if you do, but I'm not jumping on that bandwagon.

This team's best basketball is still ahead. A one-game hiccup on short rest, on the road, to a team desperate for a big win to punch their ticket (and the only ACC team to beat UVA, mind you), who needed everything to go right for them just to win the game. Remember, this was VT's second look at the zone and Buzz coached them well. We're gonna be OK.

[FerryFor50]

Raise your hand if you knew Duval was going to miss that free throw... not only is Duval not a good free throw shooter... he's also not a clutch free throw shooter.

The refs were not good but that's not why we lost. Our offense was terrible for the last... oh say... 30 minutes of that game? Way too many turnovers. Rarely got any easy looks.

I'll never understand Duval getting the ball at the end there. We even sub'ed out a player before the inbounds pass (took Carter out who is a pretty good free throw shooter!). Could have put Alex in for Trevon but we didn't. Just doesn't make sense... you know they are going to foul.

Or, it’s possible the offense was bad *because* of the way it was being officiated. Post offense was non-existent due to the pushing, grabbing and shoving not being called.

[ipatent]

They ran clock too early and ended up with several bad shots at the end of the possession.

[Kjeffrey]

One of those last turnovers was by Trent on a pass to Carter.

And then one by Allen. Lots of mistakes made all game long so it's hard to hang this loss on Duval's missed FT's. Not a great night and everyone owns some of the responsibility, including the coaching staff. Hopefully everyone learned something and they will be ready for Saturday's game.

[ndkjr70]

Ironically enough, a UNC win against Miami actually clinches us a double bye. A loss to Miami and we could still end up the 5-seed (tiebreaker silliness). It sounds wrong but you can check my facts: it isn’t.

[Wildling]

We committed 18 turnovers and shot 29% from 3. And with a lead late, we made awful mistake after offensive mistake. The refs did not cost us this game. We just played really poorly on offense for the last 7 minutes of the game.

Bingo!

[arnie]

Lol so now we’re back to blaming Bagley and Trevon for the loss. Some of you guys are classic. Grayson and Gary shot 5-22 from 3 (Gary going 1-7). Lots of fingers can be pointed but Trevon and MBIII shouldn’t get the blame. Oh well, guess the sky is falling again. Have a good night DBR.

I thought Duval played well, but a team cannot put the ball in his hands when it’s a given he’ll be fouled. Not Duval’s fault the staff missed it. But as a poster said upstream, maybe this doesn’t happen again.

[Bluedog]

I don't think people are blaming Duval for the loss but if we hit two FTs there it's very likely a W so you want your best FT shooters taking it. Duval was the victim of some terrible calls against him (but those didn't cost us the game).

I don't remember a game with so many errant passes when trying to feed the post / lobs.

[DU82]

I hope K blisters the jokes that the ACC is letting officiate games. In a season where the refs are reaching an all time low, tonight was the worst.

Buzz Williams and his antics are going to wear thin, if they havent already.

Dan Dakich is a classless buffoon.

Tonight was the culmination of Duke haterade in full effect. Pathetic reffing, cheap antics by opposing coach and classless announcing. The trifecta of haterade.

I don't get the hate for Dakich. He talked about the game, he called out bad calls (on both sides, including the last hold on the out-of-bounds play) and provided good information (when ESPN wasn't going to the "brackets bunker".)

[J4Kop99]

It's almost as if the team assumed victory after that AOC 3 and then stopped playing.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

One of those last turnovers was by Trent on a pass to Carter.

I was talking about the last two possessions that Allen had the ball, the first was the make-up call on him(which Allen should have realized was coming) and the second was the poor bounce pass on the pick&roll.

Our lack of a true PG is our Achilles Heel this year, and tonight showed it.

[MrPoon]

Tip of the hat for me to Buzz. I thought his D was really well prepared. Nothing was easy on offense and they knew what Duke wanted to run. Their offense was consistent enough finding holes in the zone. Duke looked tired late in the second and VTech used the crowd to its favor. I even thought he out worked K on the refs. Also appreciated when he took up the mic. I was at Bloomington this year, the so-called home of basketball and while the people around me apologized for the student’s behavior, the big screen kept showing the student section to encourage them when GA was up.

Bagley especially looked out of game shape in the second half. Legs didn’t look like they were there.
Some of the early posts here seem to be against the refs. They absolutly let Bagley and Carter get mugged but that was the game that Tech had to play and they got it to work. Duke should have still won. They couldn’t execute late (not the first time).

By the way, has anyone seen Gary Trent? Good looking freshman? Famous Dad? Hard working player with a bit of a chip on his shoulder and a great midrange and out game? Anyone?

[FerryFor50]

There is a concept in refereeing known as the fantasy or phantom call. Officials are supposed to avoid making these types of calls. I would not want to be this any one of this crew once their supervisor grades tonight's performance. The refs must have felt sick when looking at the monitor to determine who got possession after Duval's missed FT, and could plainly see Carter being held.

Freshman mistake by Bagley to inbound to the first open player (Duval) he saw. He had time to look around and be patient.

You could see the conversation K had after the missed Carter call.

K: “Did you see that foul?”

Ref: “No.”

K: “Well I saw it.”

[heyman25]

This is not entertaining basketball. I hope Duke can put together a great team effort the rest of the season. Trent has been MIA .Bonehead pass in last 2 minutes. Worst passing game I have seen at Duke in a very long time. Virginia Tech wanted it more with help from the referees.

[barjwr]

I know Coach K is a genius, but we have seen this same story play out for at least the last 20 years. He has them trying to learn how to maintain a lead late by shortening the game to fewer possessions. Sometimes it works, but frequently it costs us intensity and aggressiveness on the offensive end, resulting in missed shots and/or turnovers that result in easy baskets for the opponents.

I've been a Duke fan for a long time, and this still drives me effing bananas.

[Ian]

What an abject failure by everyone. This was a team effort for sure down the stretch where no one could do anything right, including the coach. Why a coach would take Carter out with 26 sec left and leave Duval in when he's by far the worst FT shooter among the regulars and everyone in the stadium knew he'd miss the 1-1 is beyond me.

AOC wide open in the corner with nobody within 20 ft but he can't get the ball because we had to run stall ball which ends up with Bolden fade-away 10 footer that barely catches rim was another instance that stood out.

[CDu]

I don't get the hate for Dakich. He talked about the game, he called out bad calls (on both sides, including the last hold on the out-of-bounds play) and provided good information (when ESPN wasn't going to the "brackets bunker".)

It was the bashing of Bagley that crossed the line.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Ironically enough, a UNC win against Miami actually clinches us a double bye. A loss to Miami and we could still end up the 5-seed (tiebreaker silliness). It sounds wrong but you can check my facts: it isn’t.

Maybe more games is better. This team clearly isn't clicking yet. They aren't playing poorly but they aren't playing as a 5 men unit yet either.

[VA_BDevil]

February 26, 2018 will be remembered as our last loss of the season. Everything counts now.

[gofurman]

Good grief.

That was an obvious loss coming. I was surprised Duke led as much as they did

Said pre game -
- quick turnaround
- Away game v team that beat UVA Clemson and UNC
- Senior night
- pre-UNC

Is Bagley 100%?

[Mak P]

There's multiple reasons for this team struggles, Bagley is the least concern

[nmduke2001]

I don’t understand how a substitution was made before the inbound pass and Carter was removed and not Duval. How does everyone on DBR understand that Duval shouldn’t get that pass but no one on the staff does?

[Troublemaker]

Ironically enough, a UNC win against Miami actually clinches us a double bye. A loss to Miami and we could still end up the 5-seed (tiebreaker silliness). It sounds wrong but you can check my facts: it isn’t.

Still gonna root for Miami. (Not that you suggested otherwise).

Not sure what to root for nationally at this point, but I'm sure I'll figure out some complex scheme. It looks like we'll be a 2-seed.

[ndkjr70]

I don't get the hate for Dakich. He talked about the game, he called out bad calls (on both sides, including the last hold on the out-of-bounds play) and provided good information (when ESPN wasn't going to the "brackets bunker".)

Are you being ironic? He called Badgley a “selfish, self absorbed player” and went on a three minute rant about Coach K’s preferrential treatment.

[Eternal Outlaw]

What an abject failure by everyone. This was a team effort for sure down the stretch where no one could do anything right, including the coach. Why a coach would take Carter out with 26 sec left and leave Duval in when he's by far the worst FT shooter among the regulars and everyone in the stadium knew he'd miss the 1-1 is beyond me.

AOC wide open in the corner with nobody within 20 ft but he can't get the ball because we had to run stall ball which ends up with Bolden fade-away 10 footer that barely catches rim was another instance that stood out.

Call me a cynic but if AOC misses it and they get a long rebound run out, people would call out an early 3 in the shot clock as a bad play too.

[MrPoon]

They ran clock too early and ended up with several bad shots at the end of the possession.

You can run clock, you just have to execute late in the clock. You CANNOT run the clock and then have an errant, late-in-the-clock pass that leads to layups. That was the problem.

[devildeac]

Tip of the hat for me to Buzz. I thought his D was really well prepared. Nothing was easy on offense and they knew what Duke wanted to run. Their offense was consistent enough finding holes in the zone. Duke looked tired late in the second and VTech used the crowd to its favor. I even thought he out worked K on the refs. Also appreciated when he took up the mic. I was at Bloomington this year, the so-called home of basketball and while the people around me apologized for the student’s behavior, the big screen kept showing the student section to encourage them when GA was up.

Bagley especially looked out of game shape in the second half. Legs didn’t look like they were there.
Some of the early posts here seem to be against the refs. They absolutly let Bagley and Carter get mugged but that was the game that Tech had to play and they got it to work. Duke should have still won. They couldn’t execute late (not the first time).

By the way, has anyone seen Gary Trent? Good looking freshman? Famous Dad? Hard working player with a bit of a chip on his shoulder and a great midrange and out game? Anyone?

Those are still fouls, unless, of course, acc ignore and/or refuse to call them.

[bluenorth]

You could see the conversation K had after the missed Carter call.

K: “Did you see that foul?”

Ref: “No.”

K: “Well I saw it.”

And not long before that there was a 3 second call. Really? At that stage you only make that call when the player posting up receives the entry pass, not when the ball is outside.

[Ian]

Unfortunately, we don't have enough ball handlers to not have him in. His being in the game was the right choice.

But, yeah, we should have tried harder to get the ball into Grayson or Trent.

Don't need ball handlers, VT was going to foul as soon as someone caught it. Besides letting Duval catch it was as good as a turnover there anyway.

[53n206]

Two games in a row where shooting sub-par even for Div II team. Turnovers by horrid- throwing into a crowd near basket were poor decisions that I am sure were called by coaches. Not sure team ready for big time ball. GOAT coach not looking so great these days.

[CoachJ10]

We committed 18 turnovers and shot 29% from 3. And with a lead late, we made awful mistake after offensive mistake. The refs did not cost us this game. We just played really poorly on offense for the last 7 minutes of the game.

So you really think that the grabbing and holding of Bagley and Carter throught the game had no effect on the game? You really think that?

[mr. synellinden]

They ran clock too early and ended up with several bad shots at the end of the possession.

This. Stall ball too early given the way this game was being played and officiated.

[FerryFor50]

Those are still fouls, unless, of course, acc ignore and/or refuse to call them.

And it’s the answer to the question “how does an undersized VT team outplay Duke’s frontcourt?”

[BobBender]

nice to know that absolutely anything can be done to Duke's big men in the post without a foul getting called.
Wouldn't have mattered if Carter or Trent had showed up today.
2 games in a row with absolutely putrid offense, after 4 games of very efficient offense.
It's a good thing the defense showed up, otherwise we woulda got blown out.

Blackshear launches himself like a scud missile at his defender everytime he makes a move to the basket. Just horizontally leapt into Wendell about 6 times. And I thought the refs might award the reviewed out of bounds possession to the Devils simply because it was a 50/50 call, but ( again) Blackshear clearly held Carter as he had a chance at grabbing it before going out of bounds. I would hope the league would show officials that Blackshear is creating all the contact, yet getting every call .

[bluenorth]

February 26, 2018 will be remembered as our last loss of the season. Everything counts now.

I like the way you're thinking!

[scottdude8]

Reading all the negativity here I would think we lost by double digits at home. This was a road game against a top 6 ACC team on senior night where a win basically stamps their ticket to the dance. With all those things going against us, and despite blatantly not playing up to our potential (turnovers, missed open 3s, etc), it STILL required a sequence of very unlikely events at the end of the game to beat us.

I’m encouraged by the fact that our defense still looks great and did so on the road against a solid offensive team. I’m encouraged by Grayson still looking aggressive offensively. I’m encouraged by Trevon’s play (the fouls hurt, as did the missed FTs, but he played well when he was out there minus the end). And Bagley will reacclimate (no one said ANYTHING bad about he young man until he was absent for a few games, especially about his motor and team play, remember that). The final result sucks but people have to start seeing the forest through the trees.

[MrPoon]

I don’t understand how a substitution was made before the inbound pass and Carter was removed and not Duval. How does everyone on DBR understand that Duval shouldn’t get that pass but no one on the staff does?

I’m guessing that was for a ball handler to help break the expected pressure but I saw it and questioned the sub too. WC is a better foul shooter at this point in the year I believe. And Tricky has missed his share of the first of two.

[FerryFor50]

And not long before that there was a 3 second call. Really? At that stage you only make that call when the player posting up receives the entry pass, not when the ball is outside.

And they didn’t call a 3 second violation on VT when one of their guys got caught under the basket after picking up his dribble.

[DU82]

Are you being ironic? He called Badgley a “selfish, self absorbed player” and went on a three minute rant about Coach K’s preferrential treatment.

No, I'm not. I may not agree with his comments about Bagley, but he's not that far off in his point. And I thought he talked about what he saw during the game, at the time, and his comments went both ways on positives and negatives.

If you're going to criticize him for his negative comments about Duke and some of the players, you better say the same things about posters in this (and the in-game) threads talking about Bagley and especially Duval.

[devildeac]

And not long before that there was a 3 second call. Really? At that stage you only make that call when the player posting up receives the entry pass, not when the ball is outside.

With no Duke player near the lane. Next possession, VT was in the paint 5-6 seconds, no call, and they get a wide open kick-out 3.

Credit to FF50 for beating me to this comment.

[ndkjr70]

Reading all the negativity here I would think we lost by double digits at home. This was a road game against a top 6 ACC team on senior night where a win basically stamps their ticket to the dance. With all those things going against us, and despite blatantly not playing up to our potential (turnovers, missed open 3s, etc), it STILL required a sequence of very unlikely events at the end of the game to beat us.

I’m encouraged by the fact that our defense still looks great and did so on the road against a solid offensive team. I’m encouraged by Grayson still looking aggressive offensively. I’m encouraged by Trevon’s play (the fouls hurt, as did the missed FTs, but he played well when he was out there minus the end). And Bagley will reacclimate (no one said ANYTHING bad about he young man until he was absent for a few games, especially about his motor and team play, remember that). The final result sucks but people have to start seeing the forest through the trees.

I really don’t think any of the negativity is directed at the kids. The referees handed Duke a loss, and that’s frustrating.

[Ian]

Call me a cynic but if AOC misses it and they get a long rebound run out, people would call out an early 3 in the shot clock as a bad play too.

I would never call a wide open 3 by a great shooter a bad play when there is still that much time left, the lead wasn't any where near large enough to start overly concerned with the clock.

[nmduke2001]

I’m guessing that was for a ball handler to help break the expected pressure but I saw it and questioned the sub too. WC is a better foul shooter at this point in the year I believe. And Tricky has missed his share of the first of two.

There was 27 seconds left. VT had to foul. The ball handling didn’t really matter.

[tulsuduke]

Unfortunately, we don't have enough ball handlers to not have him in. His being in the game was the right choice.

But, yeah, we should have tried harder to get the ball into Grayson or Trent.

Fair point, but O'Connell could've have been a viable option.

That having been said, 1095 wins for K vs 0 for me ends the discussion.

[Kjeffrey]

I don't disagree the refs were bad. But there seemed to be much bigger problems tonight such as ball movement, turnovers, poor shooting, lackadaisical defense in transition at times and clock management. I'm not sure the refs affected any of those things. Maybe but if Duke plays their game the refs would have been irrelevant.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

The final result sucks but people have to start seeing the forest through the trees.

Appreciate the positivity, but the proof will be in the results.

A game like this is only palatable if in the long-run we learn and grow from it.

Otherwise, when we had a #1 seed in our grasp, this is a disappointing result.

[DukeWarhead]

Win the next game and this game means exactly zero. Hope it works out that way.

[AceDukie77]

We have 2 potential lottery picks that are big men.... is it too much to ask that we devise a few plays that will consistently give them good looks at the basket? No other team in the country has this luxury. We have 3 point shooters that are good enough that they should not be able to collapse down on them, I just don't think we run an offense that takes advantage of our strengths.

[scottdude8]

I really don’t think any of the negativity is directed at the kids. The referees handed Duke a loss, and that’s frustrating.

I can point to a half dozen posts in this thread alone that beg to differ. I’m also frustrated with the referring, obviously, and we’re allowed to be frustrated by that. But I think that’s clearly not what I was referring to.

[ndkjr70]

No, I'm not. I may not agree with his comments about Bagley, but he's not that far off in his point. And I thought he talked about what he saw during the game, at the time, and his comments went both ways on positives and negatives.

If you're going to criticize him for his negative comments about Duke and some of the players, you better say the same things about posters in this (and the in-game) threads talking about Bagley and especially Duval.

You don’t think being a reporter who’s voice is heard by millions has an obligation to mince his (seemingly personal) comments about an 18 year old kid?

Clearly we have entirely different viewpoints, but the fact that you’re defending a grown man attacking an 18 year old and then going on a three minute rant indicating a HoF coach is using shady tactics to win a basketball game is beyond comprehension. Luckily I can just ignore your posts and move on, and I’ll say nothing further. Go duke.

[Devilwin]

Complete comedy of errors in the end. We made several dumb mistakes that contributed to the loss. But if you say the refs had nothing to do with it, you didn't see the same game I did. They were horrific.
:mad:

[gofurman]

Reading all the negativity here I would think we lost by double digits at home. This was a road game against a top 6 ACC team on senior night where a win basically stamps their ticket to the dance. With all those things going against us, and despite blatantly not playing up to our potential (turnovers, missed open 3s, etc), it STILL required a sequence of very unlikely events at the end of the game to beat us.

I’m encouraged by the fact that our defense still looks great and did so on the road against a solid offensive team. I’m encouraged by Grayson still looking aggressive offensively. I’m encouraged by Trevon’s play (the fouls hurt, as did the missed FTs, but he played well when he was out there minus the end). And Bagley will reacclimate (no one said ANYTHING bad about he young man until he was absent for a few games, especially about his motor and team play, remember that). The final result sucks but people have to start seeing the forest through the trees.

Agree on Grayson hunting his shot w Bagley in the game. That had been a point of interest and this is only the second game where Allen scored more than 10 that we lost. Duke is now something like 20-2 when GA scores 10 or more. Duke is 4-4 when he scores less. So glad to see Allen shooting more !!!

[jipops]

Hidden by the fact that we've played some good D the past 5 or so games, our offense has been mostly a mess. I guess we can't have both with this team.

Turnovers have often been a problem. Don't really see that getting any better at this point.

[scottdude8]

Appreciate the positivity, but the proof will be in the results.

A game like this is only palatable if in the long-run we learn and grow from it.

Otherwise, when we had a #1 seed in our grasp, this is a disappointing result.

Disappointing, 100%!!! I’m extremely disappointed, as I really wanted that No. 1 seed. But the tone I’m referring to isn’t of disappointment but of anger and finger pointing, which is a bit much after a one point road loss.

[uh_no]

For all those people who say that refs don't play a part in games. Care to say that now? I don't mind it just hope we get the same level of help in our final game.

I'd rather us worry about the fact that suddenly we can't play offense worth a darn....but sure, worry about the couple points we lost because of the refs.

[cruxer]

I don't get the hate for Dakich. He talked about the game, he called out bad calls (on both sides, including the last hold on the out-of-bounds play) and provided good information (when ESPN wasn't going to the "brackets bunker".)

Dakich is a buffoon who makes 6 or 7 figures to (apparently) drag an 18 year old kid who is far more economically valuable than him but is forced into a system where he cannot be fairly compensated for it. Dakich then proceeds to do that dragging in the most holier-than-thou fashion possible. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's why I hate him.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

26 points in ten minutes
37 points in thirty minutes....

[bluenorth]

This team clearly has a couple of issues -- first off, unfortunately, Coach K lost this game for us. There's no way Duval should have been on the floor in a late-game fouling situation. He needs to be on the bench and...well... anyone else from the bench needs to get in the game. Duval is too poor of a foul shooter to be put in that situation. What exactly did he promise these 4 freshmen before they committed? I'm not saying anything illegal, but traditionally in a team sport, if you aren't playing well, you sit down. If you're not the right person for the job at the time, you sit down. Duval should have been sitting down!

Also, how is it even possible that we are a worse team with Bagley on the floor? He's one of the best college players I've ever seen, yet, we can't have a coherent offense when he's playing. Maybe it was his time away, maybe he wasn't as focused on learning as we thought, but his zone defensive tendencies were just awful as well.

Also, for the record -- Dan Dakich really sucks. He needs to stick to the Big 10.

Watching Bagley play in the zone defence, he seems to be too focused on the ball, staring at it most of the time. As a result he's not seeing cutters moving into open spaces behind him. Then he's surprised when a pass goes by him to an open shooter in the corner. It may be a zone, but you still need to guard someone, not just air.

[Eternal Outlaw]

There was 27 seconds left. VT had to foul. The ball handling didn’t really matter.

Not right away, plenty of time to trap and force a turnover if possible. Reason they didn't was a bad FT shooter but with Duke with no timeouts, I bet they trap Allen or Trent and go for the steal and either wait for Duval to get a pass or get the ball past half court.

[FerryFor50]

Complete comedy of errors in the end. We made several dumb mistakes that contributed to the loss. But if you say the refs had nothing to do with it, you didn't see the same game I did. They were horrific.
:mad:

Some people go out of their way to avoid criticizing refs, because they feel it’s in poor form.

But as long as refs exist and have impact on games, they’re valid reasons for why teams win or lose.

I think it’s possible for refs to be both unbiased and awful at the same time. Tonight was an example of that.

[CoachJ10]

I don't disagree the refs were bad. But there seemed to be much bigger problems tonight such as ball movement, turnovers, poor shooting, lackadaisical defense in transition at times and clock management. I'm not sure the refs affected any of those things. Maybe but if Duke plays their game the refs would have been irrelevant.

The whole point is that you can’t play your game if you are being manhandled and held.

[UrinalCake]

Really frustrating loss. A key play was Trent missing a wide open three with about 9 minutes left and then VT running the other way for an and-1. Six point turnaround. We missed so many open shots though, and just didn’t execute in the second half.

Our defense has been great since moving to the zone but our offense has been sluggish when we just walk it up every time. I get that we can be efficient in the half court with our bigs, but we need a better balance of pushing the tempo when we can.

[rsvman]

I know Coach K is a genius, but we have seen this same story play out for at least the last 20 years. He has them trying to learn how to maintain a lead late by shortening the game to fewer possessions. Sometimes it works, but frequently it costs us intensity and aggressiveness on the offensive end, resulting in missed shots and/or turnovers that result in easy baskets for the opponents.

I've been a Duke fan for a long time, and this still drives me effing bananas.

Sorry, but this is just wrong. You can believe what you want to believe, but this just isn't true.
"Sometimes it works?" Really? Truth is that it almost always works. You just focus on the times it doesn't work.

[arnie]

Watching Bagley play in the zone defence, he seems to be too focused on the ball, staring at it most of the time. As a result he's not seeing cutters moving into open spaces behind him. Then he's surprised when a pass goes by him to an open shooter in the corner. It may be a zone, but you still need to guard someone, not just air.

And Dakich pointed that out also. I think Dakich is a much better analyst than most, but his demeanor is too harsh.

[tulsuduke]

"A couple of the games we've lost, we've missed one-and-ones. I'm not blaming Trevon, but you gotta hit'em. You gotta hit'em. Those are winning plays."

K in the post game press conference.

[Walkerakl]

What's up with AOC? Is the moment too big for him at this time? It's like he's trying to fire the ball out as fast as possible as soon as he gets it. Didn't pull the trigger on a couple of decent looks -- when he shoots, he scores!

[dukelifer]

Another close loss - where missed free throws and bad turnovers were the difference. Duke has to beat UNC on Saturday- a must win to regain confidence to enter both tourneys. Not much more to say.

[indy1duke]

I have not read any comments upthread.

Seriously, that was the poorest officiated game this side of the 2004 semifinal game against UConn. How about Duval's fourth foul which on replay showed conclusively no foul? How about Carter being held right in front of the referee and when they go to the monitor they couldn't make up their mind whether to give the ball to Duke or Va Tech? Maybe they should have given the ball to Duke since they so obviously missed the foul call. Far worse was the constant mugging that went on against our bigs with no foul calls. How about the freedom of movement? All our guards were bumped on their drives forcing them to pull it back out.

How many other Duke fans muted that SOB Dan Dakich. After he insulted freshman Bagley he goes after Coach K. I don't have to listen to that garbage.

One thoroughly disgusted Duke fan.

[Kjeffrey]

I'd rather us worry about the fact that suddenly we can't play offense worth a darn...but sure, worry about the couple points we lost because of the refs.

And I worry about the reason(s) why the offense has gone south...I hope the past two games are just bad coincidences and nothing more.

[DukeWarhead]

Can we play Pitt again? Please.

[FerryFor50]

And Dakich pointed that out also. I think Dakich is a much better analyst than most, but his demeanor is too harsh.

That type of critique by Dakich was fine. It was the “Bagley is selfish” comments that were out of line.

[Ian]

"A couple of the games we've lost, we've missed one-and-ones. I'm not blaming Trevon, but you gotta hit'em. You gotta hit'em. Those are winning plays."

K in the post game press conference.

You gotta not let the 60% FT shooter shoot'em.

[dukelifer]

And Dakich pointed that out also. I think Dakich is a much better analyst than most, but his demeanor is too harsh.

Bagley is a Freshman who should have been in high school. He is still growing as a player. To call him out as selfish was over the top hypercritical.

[kshepinthehouse]

I don't disagree the refs were bad. But there seemed to be much bigger problems tonight such as ball movement, turnovers, poor shooting, lackadaisical defense in transition at times and clock management. I'm not sure the refs affected any of those things. Maybe but if Duke plays their game the refs would have been irrelevant.

The whole point is that you can’t play your game if you are being manhandled and held.

I have to agree with this. Complete hockey checking in the paint by V Techs smaller players. We couldn’t get the ball insid and do our thing due to the wrestling match that happened underneath. I hate watching that crap because it isn’t basketball. The biggest, baddest thugs win in that case. Maybe we should have had Bagley, Bolden and Carter In at the same time and just had them bowl people over. Prob would have had some Ticky tack calls in that case.

[CameronWade]

Very disappointing loss, with a lot of factors to be upset about. Of course the in-bounds to Trevon in with the shot clock off wasn't ideal, and this was yet another game in which the referees allowed very physical play in the post which works to our disadvantage. However, they weathered multiple runs in a tough environment and caught a perfect storm at the end. Given what we saw earlier this year (MSU without Marvin, comebacks against Texas and Florida, etc.), I'm not going to start doubting we have the ability to play through adversity because we came out on the losing end tonight.

We have no more road games, and we tend to take care of business at home and at neutral sites. I think we are in good shape heading into the end of the season and post-season. While I cannot speak for others, this is the first year in quite a while in which I really don't worry about who we draw in the tournament. Could we lose to many teams, even in the first weekend? Sure. But I prefer to think of it this way. If you were a fan of a number 1 seed, is Duke the 2 seed you want in your bracket? It's certainly not the team I would prefer drawing as one of the prospective 1s.

[Kjeffrey]

I don't disagree the refs were bad. But there seemed to be much bigger problems tonight such as ball movement, turnovers, poor shooting, lackadaisical defense in transition at times and clock management. I'm not sure the refs affected any of those things. Maybe but if Duke plays their game the refs would have been irrelevant.

The whole point is that you can’t play your game if you are being manhandled and held.

Maybe but I didn't see any manhandling on some of the turnovers, wide open shots and free throws.

[scottdude8]

Watching Bagley play in the zone defence, he seems to be too focused on the ball, staring at it most of the time. As a result he's not seeing cutters moving into open spaces behind him. Then he's surprised when a pass goes by him to an open shooter in the corner. It may be a zone, but you still need to guard someone, not just air.

That’s a very fair assessment. I would imagine him being out of the lineup as we transitioned to zone is playing a major role there. Bagley has all the tools to be an ideal wing defender in the 2-3, he just has to learn it. I would imagine we’ll see a big difference after a week of practice before UNC.

[CoachJ10]

I'd rather us worry about the fact that suddenly we can't play offense worth a darn...but sure, worry about the couple points we lost because of the refs.

Couple points? Did you watch the VA Tech defenders draped all over Bagley’s back all game? You dont think that impeded his game at all? And our ability to run offense thru the post? You think that manhandling cost us just a couple points?

(Not to mention the phantom calls that gave Va Tech some and ones and outright free throws).

It still is strange to me that there are some people that will not hold the 3 people (professional adults at that) responsible for applying the rules of the game...not responsible for doing a bad job at it when they do a bad job of it.

[karmacoma]

Lol so now we’re back to blaming Bagley and Trevon for the loss. Some of you guys are classic. Grayson and Gary shot 5-22 from 3 (Gary going 1-7). Lots of fingers can be pointed but Trevon and MBIII shouldn’t get the blame. Oh well, guess the sky is falling again. Have a good night DBR.

Objective assessment of where we are: we have a PG who can't shoot threes, can't shoot free throws, and can't run the point without turning the ball over unnecessarily. We have a PF who can't play defense and who's offense has withered with the game's physicality as the season has worn on. We have a senior captain who's strength is shooting but who's shot is, at best, mercurial. We have a SG who's hit the freshman wall at the worst possible time. And we have a bench who's talent drops precipitously from that of the four aforementioned players.
Oh, and the country's best man-to-man defense coach can't seem to impart on this group how to play man-to-man defense, which has been abandoned wholesale.

You know, we could get right, get hot, and win it all. Who knows this season, with no presumptive favorite. But I'm tired of hearing how we're the most talented team in the country, which is empirically not true. A bevy of NBA draft picks does not a great team make.
Just ask Kentucky. At this point, I would be more shocked by a national championship than I would an opening round loss to a 15 seed like Lehigh and Mercer. And it's really not close.

[BigZ]

On to Carolina

[mgtr]

It is the job of the coaching staff to put together a plan to win the game. That didn't happen. Yes, the refs were bad. Yes, we were unlucky at times. But the GOAT was outcoached. Maybe if he spent more time thinking about his players and less time arguing with the refs, it would be better, but I have no credentials in that area at all.

[bludevil_33]

Couple points? Did you watch the VA Tech defenders draped all over Bagley’s back all game? You dont think that impeded his game at all? And our ability to run offense thru the post? You think that manhandling cost us just a couple points?

(Not to mention the phantom calls that gave Va Tech some and ones and outright free throws).

It still is strange to me that there are some people that will not hold the 3 people (professional adults at that) responsible for applying the rules of the game...not responsible for doing a bad job at it when they do a bad job of it.

The people whose job it is to hold the 3 people responsible for applying the rules of the game will do just that.

I'm just guessing they won't apply your standards. Or ask you your opinion.

It was a scrappy game. Lots of calls missed (or passed on) on both sides. Either way, the officiating did not cost Duke the game. Not being able to score cost Duke the game. Which was uh_no's point.

[jv001]

Lot's of things went wrong for Duke in this game, off the top of my head:
First half we go about 6 minutes without scoring and only 4 point in 9 minutes.
I hardly ever talk about the refs, but these guys sucked. You could tell the crowd intimidated them, not supposed to happen.
Offense just does not run smoothly with Bagley in the lineup with Wendell. Not his fault, it's the coaches. They have to get the team in sync with both in the game at the same time.
Not blaming the stall game, but blame the players. Too many forced passes into the post area. Several went the other way for a fast break layup.

Now the biggest negative/blunder of all. It was not Trevon's fault that he missed the foul shot. It was on the coaches first for even having him in the game. VT was going to foul him if he was in the game. Williams is too good of a coach not to have gone over it with his team. Second, since he was in the game, the passer should not have given him the ball unless it was the last resort. I really feel bad for Trevon because the coaches should have never put him in that spot. This late in the season it could really hurt his confidence. Trevon had really played well most of the 2nd half. He stepped up and made some good plays when we were having trouble scoring.

This was a good game for Alex to get more minutes. We were having trouble scoring and he could have helped. Matter of fact, he hit a big three pointer toward the end of the game. We forced too many passes into the post when it was obvious the refs were letting Tech mug our guys.

Let's beat the Cheats and go into the ACCT on a positive note. GoDuke!

[uh_no]

Sorry, but this is just wrong. You can believe what you want to believe, but this just isn't true.
"Sometimes it works?" Really? Truth is that it almost always works. You just focus on the times it doesn't work.

i remember a time we won a national title playing almost exclusively stall ball....and it was only ~8 years ago.

But seems most people can't remember since 3 days ago. Suddenly, after playing 5 games of excellent team defense, the team is awful and not clicking. Then we'll beat carolina on saturday, and there'll be nobody better ever and we'll be a lock for 9 straight wins.

people have short memories in sports. the reality is somewhere in between.


Anyway,

another very good defensive performance. 97 ppp, adjusted to 85.7 Another performance that would put us pretty much best in the country. The offense is another story....and has been in a relatively long slow decline from where it was through january. These last two games have been awful. We can blame the refs all we want, but the offense has not been the vaunted "best ever" offense that we thought it might be....and has been very mediocre lately. averaging 18% turnovers is not going to get it done. we throw away nearly 1 out of every 5 possessions. We solved the defense. now it's the TOs that's up to bad.

5 days. lets get it done. go duke.

[Ian]

We can whine about the physicality of the game all we want. But fact is that precisely the kind of game that has knocked us out of the tournament. Heck SC did it last year. This will happen in the NCAA to us too, and the solution is we have to play even tougher and stronger and more physical than the other team. That's the only way you surivive these types of games. Right now I'm not sure we have the personnel to do that.

[archand1]

I've mainly lurked on here for years. While I have no posting cred at all, I feel like I need to call out this thread for eerily resembling the IC forums. I get the frustration, but this is an embarrassment as a fan base.


- There were some blown/missed calls, and it's fine to point that out. What I won't do is blame blown calls for Duke losing a double digit lead and turning the ball over.

- Bagley is the most talented player in the nation. We are not better without him.

- The team looked fatigued and with Trent not hitting shots it was Grayson or bust, the bust being trying to feed a clogged post.

-The encouraging thing in this loss is we didn't get blistered on defense, careless turnovers cost us the game. That is fixable.

-Duke has made a remarkable improvement on defense in a short time frame. There is a huge game coming up with time for rest and preparation. Enjoy the ride.

[Kjeffrey]

Couple points? Did you watch the VA Tech defenders draped all over Bagley’s back all game? You dont think that impeded his game at all? And our ability to run offense thru the post? You think that manhandling cost us just a couple points?

(Not to mention the phantom calls that gave Va Tech some and ones and outright free throws).

It still is strange to me that there are some people that will not hold the 3 people (professional adults at that) responsible for applying the rules of the game...not responsible for doing a bad job at it when they do a bad job of it.

I am all for holding refs responsible and they did a bad job tonight. But Duke had this game in hand and some bad decision making, missed wide open shots and FT's were factors also. They lost by 1 point right? How many FT's did they miss? At least three that I saw. Can't miss the freebies and I think K mentioned it in his post game presser too.

[bigperm13]

Objective assessment of where we are: we have a PG who can't shoot threes, can't shoot free throws, and can't run the point without turning the ball over unnecessarily. We have a PF who can't play defense and who's offense has withered with the game's physicality as the season has worn on. We have a senior captain who's strength is shooting but who's shot is, at best, mercurial. We have a SG who's hit the freshman wall at the worst possible time. And we have a bench who's talent drops precipitously from that of the four aforementioned players.
Oh, and the country's best man-to-man defense coach can't seem to impart on this group how to play man-to-man defense, which has been abandoned wholesale.

You know, we could get right, get hot, and win it all. Who knows this season, with no presumptive favorite. But I'm tired of hearing how we're the most talented team in the country, which is empirically not true. A bevy of NBA draft picks does not a great team make.
Just ask Kentucky. At this point, I would be more shocked by a national championship than I would an opening round loss to a 15 seed like Lehigh and Mercer. And it's really not close.

I disagree with basically all of this. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong though because I don't state my opinions as if they are actual facts.

[cruxer]

It still is strange to me that there are some people that will not hold the 3 people (professional adults at that) responsible for applying the rules of the game...not responsible for doing a bad job at it when they do a bad job of it.

This. I'm not a blame the refs person but college refs are generally unbiased but awful without much accountability. They are the only ones on the court who get paid and yet even message boards tend to protect them!!!

Compare with the NBA, where the refs are far better, get paid way less than the players (yay somewhat free market!!) and yet refs must give reports on the end of game and often get roasted of they screw up.

[curtis325]

It was a valiant effort. Duke had to overcome all the VT players, all the refs, and themselves. Too much to ask, but they nearly pulled it off.

[AtlDuke72]

I really don’t think any of the negativity is directed at the kids. The referees handed Duke a loss, and that’s frustrating.

Really?

[Bluegrassdevil1]

General thought:

Based on his family heritage, and the consternation about the point guard spot during the last two seasons, I genuinely worry about the expectations for Mr. Jones next season.

This game:

This was an odd one. I just do not know... weird...

[karmacoma]

We can whine about the physicality of the game all we want. But fact is that precisely the kind of game that has knocked us out of the tournament. Heck SC did it last year. This will happen in the NCAA to us too, and the solution is we have to play even tougher and stronger and more physical than the other team. That's the only way you surivive these types of games. Right now I'm not sure we have the personnel to do that.

Word. Soft teams that can't play through physicality blame the refs. Strong teams play through it (see Carter in the second half v. Clemson). No strength tonight.

[dukelifer]

i remember a time we won a national title playing almost exclusively stall ball...and it was only ~8 years ago.

But seems most people can't remember since 3 days ago. Suddenly, after playing 5 games of excellent team defense, the team is awful and not clicking. Then we'll beat carolina on saturday, and there'll be nobody better ever and we'll be a lock for 9 straight wins.

people have short memories in sports. the reality is somewhere in between.


Anyway,

another very good defensive performance. 97 ppp, adjusted to 85.7 Another performance that would put us pretty much best in the country. The offense is another story...and has been in a relatively long slow decline from where it was through january. These last two games have been awful. We can blame the refs all we want, but the offense has not been the vaunted "best ever" offense that we thought it might be...and has been very mediocre lately. averaging 18% turnovers is not going to get it done. we throw away nearly 1 out of every 5 possessions. We solved the defense. now it's the TOs that's up to bad.

5 days. lets get it done. go duke.

Teams have figured Bags out- so that has hurt a bit. But Duke needs a consistent outside threat and tonight and last game Trent was very bad- 1-6 against Cuse and 1-7 against VT- and some were not close. That is is difference in my mind. If he hits, Duke is a winner easily tonight and it opens things down low. Without that shooter, Duke will struggle.

[uh_no]

Word. Soft teams that can't play through physicality blame the refs. Strong teams play through it (see Carter in the second half v. Clemson). No strength tonight.

I'll buy a bit fatigued on short rest, especially with bagley coming off injury. good thing we have 5 days off. Glad the defense is moving in the right direction. need to find ways to score more consistently....anyone have any ideas?

[lotusland]

It was the bashing of Bagley that crossed the line.

Yep. It’s fine to call out bad defense but Bags is not a selfish and there is no reason to say that. Isn’t this the first Duke game with Bags playing that he’s called?

[MrPoon]

We can whine about the physicality of the game all we want. But fact is that precisely the kind of game that has knocked us out of the tournament. Heck SC did it last year. This will happen in the NCAA to us too, and the solution is we have to play even tougher and stronger and more physical than the other team. That's the only way you surivive these types of games. Right now I'm not sure we have the personnel to do that.

I was getting ready to type that very thing. This game felt very much like last year’s SC game. Duke had more talent but a very physical, strong defense was flustering the team. No one could seize the moment, make a play and get a bucket. Everything was hard and the team played young. We didn’t have A play where we could count on a basket. It’s why I think Buz won the game more than some player for Duke lost it.

Hope we learn from tonight. I still think tired legs played into it also but that too is possible come March.

[CoachJ10]

I am all for holding refs responsible and they did a bad job tonight. But Duke had this game in hand and some bad decision making, missed wide open shots and FT's were factors also. They lost by 1 point right? How many FT's did they miss? At least three that I saw. Can't miss the freebies and I think K mentioned it in his post game presser too.

Duke was 5 of 7 from the line in the last few minutes (11/15 for the game). The true takeaway from this notion is that we should have shot about a dozen more ft...

[FerryFor50]

I am all for holding refs responsible and they did a bad job tonight. But Duke had this game in hand and some bad decision making, missed wide open shots and FT's were factors also. They lost by 1 point right? How many FT's did they miss? At least three that I saw. Can't miss the freebies and I think K mentioned it in his post game presser too.

I think it’s possible that there are multiple factors at play - officiating, turnovers, missed FTs, missed open shots, poor weak side rebounding in a game-on-the-line situation. Some of those things overlap. Some are directly correlated. But I don’t think anyone thinks the officiating was the *sole* reason for the loss.

[Troublemaker]

Having Trevon on the floor for the inbound was for sure a bad mistake. But we also tend to focus too much on one play in these close games.

18 turnovers. 24 easy points to VaTech off turnovers (when our zone was again clicking). That there was the ballgame. The best way to not lose a heartbreaker is to not play a one-possession game, and if we had just taken care of the ball...



I’m encouraged by the fact that our defense still looks great and did so on the road against a solid offensive team.

Yeah, I agree. It's better to lose a 64-63 ballgame (VaTech) than a 96-85 ballgame (NCSU), and I'm much more hopeful for the future with the former scenario despite both being losses. We have a track record of very good offensive play (both this season and recent seasons) and so we're better positioned going forward when we have a great defense already in place and we just need to work on the offense. If it were the reverse, I'd be much less hopeful because of the track record.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I'll buy a bit fatigued on short rest, especially with bagley coming off injury. good thing we have 5 days off. Glad the defense is moving in the right direction. need to find ways to score more consistently...anyone have any ideas?

When Trent is missing, I'd go to AOC sooner and see if he's hitting. We also need him getting the experience...and a little more time for him might address some of the fatigue issues too.

[CameronDuke]

Duke had chances to win but missed clutch free throw opportunities and turned the ball over too much.

But good gollies that was a poorly officiated game. Too many to name all of the bad calls but some I remember were Grayson going for a loose ball in the first half and getting punched in the chin and being whistled for a foul and Duval driving to the rim and getting his arm about knocked off and no foul being called.

By the time Carter was put in an arm bar by Blackshear on the last free throw miss by Duval when Carter went to retrieve the rebound and no foul was called and the ball was given to Virginia Tech, I about half expected Hulk Hogan to descend down from the rafters of Cassell Coliseum and hit Coach K with a metal chair before a ref jumped in and tapped Coach K out. 1-2-3! DING DING DING! That was some WWF wrastlin refereeing out there at times tonight.

[bludevil_33]

This. I'm not a blame the refs person but college refs are generally unbiased but awful without much accountability. They are the only ones on the court who get paid and yet even message boards tend to protect them!!!

Compare with the NBA, where the refs are far better, get paid way less than the players (yay somewhat free market!!) and yet refs must give reports on the end of game and often get roasted of they screw up.

This must be one of the more bizarre posts about officiating I've ever come across.

Let's set aside the issue of accountability (there's actually lots of accountability in the college officiating ranks, they get rated every game and get plenty roasted by assignors) and focus on the bizarre suggestion that message boards have any bearing whatsoever on "protecting" college officials.

Literally what even does that mean??

[FerryFor50]

I'll buy a bit fatigued on short rest, especially with bagley coming off injury. good thing we have 5 days off. Glad the defense is moving in the right direction. need to find ways to score more consistently...anyone have any ideas?

Move Bagley out of the post when Carter or Bolden are in. Have him lurk on the baseline.

That opens up driving lanes, and helps prevent easy double teams in the post.

Oh, and shoot better. :D

[uh_no]

I think it’s possible that there are multiple factors at play - officiating, turnovers, missed FTs, missed open shots, poor weak side rebounding in a game-on-the-line situation. Some of those things overlap. Some are directly correlated. But I don’t think anyone thinks the officiating was the *sole* reason for the loss.

The number of comments here that are solely directed at officiating, some indicating it as the sole reason, would seem to stand contrary.

It's certainly notable, but in the end not actionable....so I have trouble getting up in arms about it. IMO the best way to not get screwed by the refs is to not play poorly enough that you're in a position to get screwed by the refs. We did and were. We can fix one of those things, and it's not the refs.

[Bluedog]

Coach K presser link anybody? Thanks in advance!

[DangerDevil]

Don't need ball handlers, VT was going to foul as soon as someone caught it. Besides letting Duval catch it was as good as a turnover there anyway.

They didn’t have to foul immediately, it was only a 1 point game with roughly 25 seconds left. Plenty of time to go for a steal or a trap. Having another ball handler in the game wasn’t a mistake. Immediately inbounding to our worst FT shooter on the floor was the mistake.

[scottdude8]

Just watched Coach K’s opening statement from the presser. He repeatedly mentioned that the team played tired, which is something which hasn’t been mentioned much at all here. Two games in 48 hours plus travel is always tough, not to mention it’s also 4 games in 8 days.

That doesn’t excuse sloppy play, or a couple lazy defensive possessions, or the mental mistakes, but it does help explain them. We’ve now got five whole days to prepare for UNC. That’s huge. I would expect that to pay big dividends, especially with reacclimating Bagley and getting him used to his role in the zone.

Before the season if I told you we’d go 3-1 over this 8 day stretch before the final UNC game, I think most of us would take that. It just sucks that the 1 loss was a weird/unlucky/frustrating/sloppy/otheradjectivehere one.

[richardjackson199]

ESPN fooled me by incorrectly posting the Vegas Line for this game as V-Tech -1.

Bad omen evidently

[proelitedota]

The number of comments here that are solely directed at officiating, some indicating it as the sole reason, would seem to stand contrary.

It's certainly notable, but in the end not actionable...so I have trouble getting up in arms about it. IMO the best way to not get screwed by the refs is to not play poorly enough that you're in a position to get screwed by the refs. We did and were. We can fix one of those things, and it's not the refs.

What if the reason that the team played poorly was because of the officiating? :rolleyes:

[ndkjr70]

2 games in 48 hours is huge. Thank god none of the postseason tournaments will have that.

Oh? They all will? Great!

[Ian]

Word. Soft teams that can't play through physicality blame the refs. Strong teams play through it (see Carter in the second half v. Clemson). No strength tonight.

I can recall the precise moment in the 2010 NCAA tournament when I got the feeling that the team was going to win it all. It was the SW16 game against Purdue, when Scheyer drove from the wing to the baseline for a score. He was fouled on every step of that drive, at least 4 different times, but he was not going to be denied no matter what, no amount of physical play was going to stop him. I got the feeling then that the team was on a mission and they were not going to back down from anything.

This team needs to find that toughness if they want to do anything in March.

[godins]

Move Bagley out of the post when Carter or Bolden are in. Have him lurk on the baseline.

That opens up driving lanes, and helps prevent easy double teams in the post.

Oh, and shoot better. :D

I think we could run some actions where Bagley doesn't slip the screen every time. Tonight VTech was aggressively dogging Grayson over those screens (freedom of movement, anyone?), tracking G easily because Bagley was slipping the screen. One time Grayson got loose in the 2nd half -- his defender tripped -- he canned an uncontested 3.

[bluenorth]

As far as Coach K spending time working the referees, I would agree with him there. With all of the missed calls that posters have detailed tonight, it was obvious that a) the refs were having a bad night and b) that they could be influenced. And like it or not, part of a head coach's job is to get the guys wearing stripes to see things his way as much as possible. Add in the fact that Duke was struggling on offence, and every call became crucial. You have to be in the ref's ear when that is happening.

[proelitedota]

Coach K presser link anybody? Thanks in advance!

https://247sports.com/college/duke/Article/WATCH-Coach-K-Discusses-Fatigue-And-Loss-To-Virginia-Tech-115601462

[rdearth15]

Anyone think that some of our offensive woes go hand in hand with our recent uptick in defense?

1- We aren’t going to score as many points as we did early in the season. A zone naturally slows the pace of the game.

2- Coach often refers to practice time, like any good coach does, and I’m sure the vast majority of practice time has been spent working on defense because it was a glaring issue. Now that we seem to be playing better defense maybe offense can become more a focal point over the next 4 days before the cheats come to town.


I realize that our offense hasn’t been good lately, but some of it is just missing good looks. It’s basketball. That happens.

Need to slowdown on the knee jerk reactions. These are college kids. It was a tough environment and we made enough bad plays, coupled with their good ones, to lose.

We weren’t a lock to win any titles after our 5 game winning streak and we wouldn’t have been if we won tonight. However, we are certainly not a lock to NOT win it all just because we let this game slip away.

Think back to some of our national title teams and you will see plenty of late season losses. Those seasons turned out ok. Enjoy the ride.

[FerryFor50]

I think we could run some actions where Bagley doesn't slip the screen every time. Tonight VTech was aggressively dogging Grayson over those screens (freedom of movement, anyone?), tracking G easily because Bagley was slipping the screen. One time Grayson got loose in the 2nd half -- his defender tripped -- he canned an uncontested 3.

I was half expecting them to call an illegal screen on Bagley on that one. (And they may have been right)

[cruxer]

This must be one of the more bizarre posts about officiating I've ever come across.

Let's set aside the issue of accountability (there's actually lots of accountability in the college officiating ranks, they get rated every game and get plenty roasted by assignors) and focus on the bizarre suggestion that message boards have any bearing whatsoever on "protecting" college officials.

Literally what even does that mean??

I realize that many college fans do not follow the NBA, but the far better NBA officials are *publicly* accountable for end of game mistakes via the league's official reports (http://official.nba.com/2017-18-nba-officiating-last-two-minute-reports/).

In college, everyone assures us that the generally terrible college officials really really are accountable to someone, yet the same bad officials show up game after game in conference after conference.

[Devilwin]

Word. Soft teams that can't play through physicality blame the refs. Strong teams play through it (see Carter in the second half v. Clemson). No strength tonight.

True, but grabbing is not just being physical, it is FOULING. And it was not being called. At least from what I saw...You can play through it if it is being called the same on both ends, but we were getting called for clean steals and blocks, and they were playing grab arm all night. And that is the unbiased truth.
And we played incredibly bad. But that does not excuse such horrible officiating.

[Wildling]

Move Bagley out of the post when Carter or Bolden are in. Have him lurk on the baseline.

That opens up driving lanes, and helps prevent easy double teams in the post.

Oh, and shoot better. :D

The part in bold is the key. If we knock down just a couple of those 3's, we escape with a win and on to the cheats on Saturday. I don't feel as mad as most here about this loss. Maybe I'm missing something? I'm certainly not happy about the way we played, but I still like where we are at defensively. Ref's did suck, but I don't think that's why we lost. We lost because our offense has disappeared. Anyone put out a APB on our offense?

And once again, 18 turnovers.....

[HereBeforeCoachK]

As far as Coach K spending time working the referees, I would agree with him there. With all of the missed calls that posters have detailed tonight, it was obvious that a) the refs were having a bad night and b) that they could be influenced. And like it or not, part of a head coach's job is to get the guys wearing stripes to see things his way as much as possible. Add in the fact that Duke was struggling on offence, and every call became crucial. You have to be in the ref's ear when that is happening.

Theory on that: I think K got such a bad reputation, undeservedly, for barking at the refs and manipulating the refs...during 90s, early 2000s...that it "knocked him back" (to us a K cliche) from doing it. He complains to the refs less now than almost any coach in the nation.

[wgl1228]

Not that concerned. That game only affects our #1 seed probably. Our defense is better, we have UNC at home, ACC tournament, and the big dance to go. We are trending up.

[FerryFor50]

I realize that many college fans do not follow the NBA, but the far better NBA officials are *publicly* accountable for end of game mistakes via the league's official reports (http://official.nba.com/2017-18-nba-officiating-last-two-minute-reports/).

In college, everyone assures us that the generally terrible college officials really really are accountable to someone, yet the same bad officials show up game after game in conference after conference.

Part of the issue is that NBA refs are full time. College refs are not. They often have other jobs.

[Emerrick]

Tip of the hat for me to Buzz. I thought his D was really well prepared. Nothing was easy on offense and they knew what Duke wanted to run. Their offense was consistent enough finding holes in the zone. Duke looked tired late in the second and VTech used the crowd to its favor.


VT beat the #1 team in the nation and now the #5. It wasn’t an accident. They are a tough, scrappy, and dangerous team. We did not execute well down the stretch for sure. The refs were not kind. Grayson had costly turnovers. Bagley had a bit of olé defense. And Duval in at the end is a mystery. We should have won - no doubt. But we did play a solid team. Hats off to VT.

[Grayson Redick]

This guy is a joke and shouldn't be allowed to ref a game in the ACC with his obvious ties to the U. UNC-CHeat is 5-0 in ACC games he's officiated. He was very bad tonight.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

True, but grabbing is not just being physical, it is FOULING. And it was not being called. At least from what I saw...You can play through it if it is being called the same on both ends, but we were getting called for clean steals and blocks, and they were playing grab arm all night. And that is the unbiased truth.
And we played incredibly bad. But that does not excuse such horrible officiating.

Yep, we played zone, they played physical man to man, and we got called for more fouls. Is it really likely that is how it should've turned out?

[cruxer]

2 games in 48 hours is huge. Thank god none of the postseason tournaments will have that.

Oh? They all will? Great!

They won't have 2 games in different locations! And everyone will have the same rest/travel. So there is something to not having to do "big" Monday again. We pulled it out at Miami though, so overall not so bad!

[Duke79UNLV77]

We are now 0-5 in our last 5 games decided by 5 or fewer points.

I agree with those who think the refs were awful tonight, those who think we shot poorly and turned it over too much, those who think we became too passive when we got our last 9 point lead, and those who think we should have made sure we got the ball in to Allen or Trent at the end.

But, with all of that, we have failed to make simple plays late to win close games since Florida. Virginia and UNC have won some close ACC games.

There’s a fine line between being a dominant 1 seed and frustration.

[uh_no]

Anyone think that some of our offensive woes go hand in hand with our recent uptick in defense?

1- We aren’t going to score as many points as we did early in the season. A zone naturally slows the pace of the game.

The offense has been poor even when adjusting for the slower tempo.




2- Coach often refers to practice time, like any good coach does, and I’m sure the vast majority of practice time has been spent working on defense because it was a glaring issue. Now that we seem to be playing better defense maybe offense can become more a focal point over the next 4 days before the cheats come to town.


I'll buy that to some degree....but i'm not sure I would agree it explains all of it.

[cruxer]

Part of the issue is that NBA refs are full time. College refs are not. They often have other jobs.

College can afford full time officials. They don't even pay the talent! Regardless of the reason, college officials are bad.

[ncexnyc]

So many things to talk about tonight, but let's go back to Saturday. The excuse for our poor offense play on Saturday was the Syracuse zone. So what was it tonight? As someone else said up thread, "I hope it's just a coincidence."

I get we had a quick turn around and had to go on the road, but VT also played on Saturday. Granted they were at home, but come on people. We're talking about young men in their physical prime.

Dakich's comments have a number of people up in arms and several of his observations were fairly accurate, however I do disagree what the "selfish" label he threw MBIII's way. I view MBIII much the same way I did Tatum during the early part of last season. An extremely skilled player who believes in himself and had to learn to play the game as part of a team. When he catches the ball he needs to either make a quick move or get rid of the ball. I'd love to say he'll learn, but at this point in the season I wouldn't bet on it happening anytime soon.

As an old man I've learned from watching years and years of sports that you never want to put yourself in a position to let one bad call or play cost you the game. We did that in spades tonight. I realize our big men were getting hammered down low, but at what point in time do you learn to adjust to how the game is being called? As for that in-bounds play where Duval got the ball, that's on Coach K. and his staff. The kid never should have been put in that position. And can the stats geeks whip out another spreadsheet showing how Duval is just as good if not better than some kid nicknamed Stones. PG's have to be able to shot free throws as it's their responsibility to have the ball in their hands at the end of the game.

Is the season lost? I really don't know. The team has a ton of talent, but each of our losses has followed the same script. Get a decent lead, make boneheaded plays to let the other team back into the game and then it gets nip and tuck to the wire where we fail to execute.

[bluenorth]

Theory on that: I think K got such a bad reputation, undeservedly, for barking at the refs and manipulating the refs...during 90s, early 2000s...that it "knocked him back" (to us a K cliche) from doing it. He complains to the refs less now than almost any coach in the nation.

Referees will generally respect that from a coach, and then when he does complain they'll feel that he must have something worth talking about. That may be what we saw tonight in a couple of prolonged conversations between K and a ref, such as the one during a Duke timeout in the second half.

[FerryFor50]

The part in bold is the key. If we knock down just a couple of those 3's, we escape with a win and on to the cheats on Saturday. I don't feel as mad as most here about this loss. Maybe I'm missing something? I'm certainly not happy about the way we played, but I still like where we are at defensively. Ref's did suck, but I don't think that's why we lost. We lost because our offense has disappeared. Anyone put out a APB on our offense?

And once again, 18 turnovers....

The loss itself doesn’t bother me much - they had it in hand on the road against a solid team. Just couldn’t close it. And honestly, losing a game now and then keeps them hungry and humble.

My anger comes from the unwatchable wrestling match that inevitably comes out of those games.

[DtrainBuckshot]

Was there any chance Allen's shot bounced in with some crazy english if MB3 does not grab it? It looked to me like it had a small chance but could have been a bad angle.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

They won't have 2 games in different locations! And everyone will have the same rest/travel. So there is something to not having to do "big" Monday again. We pulled it out at Miami though, so overall not so bad!

Beat me to it...it needed to be said.....

[bludevil_33]

I realize that many college fans do not follow the NBA, but the far better NBA officials are *publicly* accountable for end of game mistakes via the league's official reports (http://official.nba.com/2017-18-nba-officiating-last-two-minute-reports/).

In college, everyone assures us that the generally terrible college officials really really are accountable to someone, yet the same bad officials show up game after game in conference after conference.


There's no better post-loss therapy than waxing meta about the state of college officiating in the post-game thread.

We could go tit-for-tat on this, but it's better left for a separate thread. Suffice it to say, it's up to the NCAA to improve the quality of officiating (which is overdue), but at the same time, rest assured that the officiating is not nearly as bad as your armchair analyzation suggests.

[Ian]

Was there any chance Allen's shot bounced in with some crazy english if MB3 does not grab it? It looked to me like it had a small chance but could have been a bad angle.

No it was well short.

[bluenorth]

Part of the issue is that NBA refs are full time. College refs are not. They often have other jobs.

And yet the pay for college games is said to be quite good. I've heard that depending on the conference it can be in the thousands of dollars per game per ref.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Referees will generally respect that from a coach, and then when he does complain they'll feel that he must have something worth talking about. That may be what we saw tonight in a couple of prolonged conversations between K and a ref, such as the one during a Duke timeout in the second half.

Ya know, I like your theory, and have thought that to myself many times....and then I see a game like tonight, and wonder what a very animated technical in the first half might have accomplished...one where the the coach shows up a ref a bit. Technicals have been known to light fires under a team, and to influence later calls by officials.

[FerryFor50]

And yet the pay for college games is said to be quite good. I've heard that depending on the conference it can be in the thousands of dollars per game per ref.

So they’re overpaid, too? :P

[Chicago 1995]

I’ve been watching the game 40 years and I apparently don’t know the rules of basketball and have no idea what is and isn’t a foul.

There’s no consistency from possession to possession or end to end, let alone half to half or game to game. And despite assurances here and elsewhere there’s oversight, no one seems to care.

Ruining the damned game

[westwall]

I’m encouraged by the fact that our defense still looks great and did so on the road against a solid offensive team. I’m encouraged by Grayson still looking aggressive offensively. I’m encouraged by Trevon’s play (the fouls hurt, as did the missed FTs, but he played well when he was out there minus the end). And Bagley will reacclimate (no one said ANYTHING bad about he young man until he was absent for a few games, especially about his motor and team play, remember that). The final result sucks but people have to start seeing the forest through the trees.


And I am encouraged by the play of our bench. Yes, really! White, Bolden and AOC (I’m not including Duval) contributed solid play, 8 points, 2 of 3 three point attempts, 6 rebounds, 1 block, 1 steal and only 1 turnover. I can recall many games when Duke’s bench contribution was virtually non-existent, so this to me is a positive development that can pay dividends in tournament play.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled negativity.

[wavedukefan70s]

There's no better post-loss therapy than waxing meta about the state of college officiating in the post-game thread.

We could go tit-for-tat on this, but it's better left for a separate thread. Suffice it to say, it's up to the NCAA to improve the quality of officiating (which is overdue), but at the same time, rest assured that the officiating is not nearly as bad as your armchair analyzation suggests.

Then NCAA is becoming useless in many ways.
I really wish there was a alternative.

[bluenorth]

Ya know, I like your theory, and have thought that to myself many times...and then I see a game like tonight, and wonder what a very animated technical in the first half might have accomplished...one where the the coach shows up a ref a bit. Technicals have been known to light fires under a team, and to influence later calls by officials.

Very true, we should ask Bob Knight about the correct procedure!

[Devil Inside]

I think we could have used more "muscle" for a few more minutes tonight, i.e., White and Bolden. White is as smart a player as anyone in the zone, and makes very few mistakes. Bolden has been as effective as any of the bigs when he is in the game (any chance K is limiting his time to insure he'll be back next year??? Just joking...kind of.)

[HereBeforeCoachK]

And yet the pay for college games is said to be quite good. I've heard that depending on the conference it can be in the thousands of dollars per game per ref.

And the problem I think is that the conferences are so secretive about the officiating. I know that as a Duke fan, when the ACC came out and admitted that the football referees screwed the pooch on the 8 lateral TD by Miami, it helped vent some of the steam. Normally however the conference offices keep all this stuff so hush hush..

It's totally absurd to have the coaches and players get asked why they did this or that, and the officials don't have to answer for anything. I think this just multiplies anger and suspicion.

[FerryFor50]

And I am encouraged by the play of our bench. Yes, really! White, Bolden and AOC (I’m not including Duval) contributed solid play, 8 points, 2 of 3 three point attempts, 6 rebounds, 1 block, 1 steal and only 1 turnover. I can recall many games when Duke’s bench contribution was virtually non-existent, so this to me is a positive development that can pay dividends in tournament play.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled negativity.

Hey now. Enough of that positivity!

[bludevil_33]

College can afford full time officials. They don't even pay the talent! Regardless of the reason, college officials are bad.

What does bad even mean? Any idea what the overall accuracy rate for college officials actually is? Care to venture a guess?

[richardjackson199]

The loss itself doesn’t bother me much - they had it in hand on the road against a solid team. Just couldn’t close it. And honestly, losing a game now and then keeps them hungry and humble.

My anger comes from the unwatchable wrestling match that inevitably comes out of those games.

You're doing better than me. We're going into the game against the cheats for the 2nd time in a row following a devastating loss. We just blew a #1 seed in a game we should have won.

I want to vomit.

(Getting this thread back on topic!)

But yes, much bigger games await this team. I'm sure they're humble, and I hope very hungry to play better. A 10 game winning streak would be nice. Or a 1 game streak, Loss, followed by a 6 game streak - I won't be greedy.

[Ballboy1998]

Part of the issue is that NBA refs are full time. College refs are not. They often have other jobs.

I would advise the three from tonight not to quit their day jobs - wow were they bad. VTech played super physical man-to-man, grabbing and pushing with two hands on every trip down the floor, and they were called for 12 fouls in the game, including the one intentional foul at the end. Duke played zone the whole way and got called for 5 more fouls. There is just no way to explain that away and it definitely impacted the game in VTech's favor. period.

With all the grabbing, Duke had trouble getting the ball into the paint, and also struggled to hit their perimeter looks at a sufficient clip. Combine that with 18 turnovers (even if they include the laughable 3-second call and pitiful makeup call against Grayson at the end), and it is a testament to the half-court D that Duke was even in a position to win the game. The team is still working to reintegrate Bagley, but it is silly to suggest the team is better without him. As this team has shown all season, they can beat anybody and they can lose to anybody. Let the madness begin.

[FerryFor50]

You're doing better than me. We're going into the game against the cheats for the 2nd time in a row following a devastating loss. We just blew a #1 seed in a game we should have won.

I want to vomit.

But yes, much bigger games await this team. I'm sure they're humble, and I hope very hungry to play better. A 10 game winning streak would be nice.

I think, with the current makeup of Duke teams (freshman heavy, few seniors playing), we should get used to not seeing long winning streaks. Every season will feel more like a roller coaster.

[bigperm13]

What does bad even mean? Any idea what the overall accuracy rate for college officials actually is? Care to venture a guess?

It would be impossible to have an overall accuracy rate with something as subjective as college basketball officiating that I would consider legitimate.

[Devilwin]

And I am encouraged by the play of our bench. Yes, really! White, Bolden and AOC (I’m not including Duval) contributed solid play, 8 points, 2 of 3 three point attempts, 6 rebounds, 1 block, 1 steal and only 1 turnover. I can recall many games when Duke’s bench contribution was virtually non-existent, so this to me is a positive development that can pay dividends in tournament play.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled negativity.

Agree, the bench play was the lone bright spot.

[cruxer]

What does bad even mean? Any idea what the overall accuracy rate for college officials actually is? Care to venture a guess?

I've probably threadjacked this enough. I don't have metrics but maybe the after action report will help with that! I just think we deserve some credible evidence that the NCAA and conferences are putting the best officiating product on the court they can. Something more than their very well compensated word.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It would be impossible to have an overall accuracy rate with something as subjective as college basketball officiating that I would consider legitimate.

Yes indeed......and I would add that the no calls would be much harder and controversial to chart than the calls....and the no calls were the whole deal tonight. Looked like poor Shavlik Randolph amidst the UConn hackers in 04 (I think 04) out there tonight.

[lotusland]

We’re not good at stall ball this year. Too many missed free throws and turnovers. VT was effective playing very physical defense and attacking the passing lanes. We didn’t adjust to how the game was being called. Our defense would have been even better without the turnovers on offense leading to baskets on the other end.

[cruxer]

Back to the game, let's not forget that our great 2015 NCAA champs got thoroughly whipped by Notre Dame in the ACC. Tonight was a dogfight that we should have won, but there's not a heck of a lot of difference in a 1 point win and a 1 point loss. It there is .5 second more left in the game and mb3's tip counts, we have a very different attitude here.

[rsvman]

Was there any chance Allen's shot bounced in with some crazy english if MB3 does not grab it? It looked to me like it had a small chance but could have been a bad angle.

No. None at all.

[Ian]

We’re not good at stall ball this year. Too many missed free throws and turnovers. VT was effective playing very physical defense and attacking the passing lanes. We didn’t adjust to how the game was being called. Our defense would have been even better without the turnovers on offense leading to baskets on the other end.

We're not good at stall ball because we don't have good guards who make good decisions. You can play stall ball with Jon Scheyer, you can play stall ball with Tyus Jones, you can't play stall ball with Allen and Duval. Having the ball in their hands with the clock running down is a off balanced forced shot or a turnover waiting to happen on every possession.

[bludevil_33]

There's a famous excerpt from the 1998 John Feinstein book, A March to Madness. In it, Feinstein recalls a moment with Coach K during the 96-97 season when K talks about that one player you need on your team who's going to stand up for his teammates at some point during the game and say "We're not going to take this any more."

Coach K uses a...well...colorful term for this certain role-player. I'm not going to use that term here, as it would violate board rules. Instead, I'll use the term "special player."

Laettner was a "special player." Ferry was a "special player." Nate James. Dahntay Jones. Justise Winslow.

Tonight's game reminded me that I'm still waiting for this team's "special player" to emerge. So far I haven't seen one. Tonight's game needed a "special player."

You need a "special player" to win a natty. Grayson is too busy being the team captain (and too burdened by his history) to be it.

Bagley could be it, but frankly he plays pretty soft a lot of the time. Carter is probably our best candidate, but it's almost like he's holding his "special player"-ness back a shade. He needs to let it loose.

We need a "special player." Soon. Before it's too late.

[subzero02]

Should I watch the replay or just say next play? I only saw the last 4 minutes and that was painful

[rsvman]

Back to the game, let's not forget that our great 2015 NCAA champs got thoroughly whipped by Notre Dame in the ACC. Tonight was a dogfight that we should have won, but there's not a heck of a lot of difference in a 1 point win and a 1 point loss. It there is .5 second more left in the game and mb3's tip counts, we have a very different attitude here.

Truth, although in that case on these boards the discussion would change to the fact that we barely escaped with a game that we should've won by a larger margin, in all probability. :roll eyes:

I think Grayson should have continued driving a bit farther before he launched the shot. He could realistically have had about a 25 to 26-foot shot instead of a near-half-court heave. All that time the ball was in the air could've been spent moving closer to the basket. This, however, is a common mistake that players at all levels make. Likely because not getting off a shot at all is the worst-case scenario.


FWIW, I am in the camp that remains optimistic at this point. I think we have a very good chance of beating UNC, and a fair chance of making the Elite Eight or Final Four. I'd say our chances of winning it all are not great, but they are certainly not zero. I feel like there is not a team in the country that we couldn't beat on any given day.

[bludevil_33]

It would be impossible to have an overall accuracy rate with something as subjective as college basketball officiating that I would consider legitimate.

It's not impossible. It's done in both the NBA and in college.

[ncexnyc]

Should I watch the replay or just say next play? I only saw the last 4 minutes and that was painful

If you've watched our other losses then there isn't any need to watch this game. It was a near perfect clone of those games.

[jv001]

There's a famous excerpt from the 1998 John Feinstein book, A March to Madness. In it, Feinstein recalls a moment with Coach K during the 96-97 season when K talks about that one player you need on your team that's going to stand up for his teammates at some point during the game and say "We're not going to take this any more."

Coach K uses a...well...colorful term for this certain role-player. I'm not going to use that term here, as it would violate board rules. Instead, I'll use the term "special player."

Laettner was a "special player." Ferry was a "special player." Nate James. Dahntay Jones. Justise Winslow.

Tonight's game reminded me that I'm still waiting for this team's "special player" to emerge. So far I haven't seen one. Tonight's game needed a "special player."

You need a "special player" to win a natty. Grayson is too busy being the team captain (and too burdened by his history) to be it.

Bagley could be it, but frankly he plays pretty soft a lot of the time. Carter is probably our best candidate, but it's almost like he's holding his "special player"-ness back a shade. He needs to let it loose.

You left off one of the best. Shane Battier. Lights out in the clutch, offense and defense. No, we won't have that guy on this team. GoDuke!

[rsvman]

Should I watch the replay or just say next play? I only saw the last 4 minutes and that was painful

You could watch the first 10 minutes of the first half, if you want to see some better play. Turn it off as soon as we get the 15-point lead. There's nothing else there that you would want to see.

[InSpades]

While we're on the topic of poor strategic decisions (and I won't re-hash inbounding the ball to Duval at first opportunity)...

Something no one has mentioned was what we did after VT went up 1 w/ 4+ seconds left on the clock. We inbounded the ball to Allen who was basically flat footed standing close the end line and dribbled the ball up the length of the court.

If we either... A. get the ball to a man running up the court instead of standing flat footed or B. actually pass the ball up the court we get a better look. We didn't do as much as we could w/ that much time left on the clock.

[jv001]

While we're on the topic of poor strategic decisions (and I won't re-hash inbounding the ball to Duval at first opportunity)...

Something no one has mentioned was what we did after VT went up 1 w/ 4+ seconds left on the clock. We inbounded the ball to Allen who was basically flat footed standing close the end line and dribbled the ball up the length of the court.

If we either... A. get the ball to a man running up the court instead of standing flat footed or B. actually pass the ball up the court we get a better look. We didn't do as much as we could w/ that much time left on the clock.

Now there was a time for Trevon to have the ball in his hands with a running start. But I would hope he would have passed it to a shooter. GoDuke!

[Kjeffrey]

We’re not good at stall ball this year. Too many missed free throws and turnovers. VT was effective playing very physical defense and attacking the passing lanes. We didn’t adjust to how the game was being called. Our defense would have been even better without the turnovers on offense leading to baskets on the other end.

I think some of Duke's inability to run stall ball is their lack of experience. It just seems like they get rushed near the end of the clock and make needless turnovers or take poor shots.

[Chicago 1995]

What does bad even mean? Any idea what the overall accuracy rate for college officials actually is? Care to venture a guess?

Bad means inconsistent. And you see that way, way too much. What’s a foul at one end isn’t at the other. No consistency from possession to possession, half to half or game to game.

The real problem isn’t necessarily wrong calls like the blatent missed hold on Carter, but the “discretion” that’s exercised that leading a foul to be called at one end — often correctly — but not called at the other end

[bludevil_33]

You left off one of the best. Shane Battier. Lights out in the clutch, offense and defense. No, we won't have that guy on this team. GoDuke!

It's not really about making plays. It's about stepping on someone's neck when you need to step on someone's neck. It's about laying a guy out on his way to the rim to send a message that you're not going to let your team get manhandled anymore. Battier usually wasn't that guy.

[bludevil_33]

Bad means inconsistent.

So, what does "inconsistent" mean to you? Again, would you care to guess what the accuracy rate of ACC and other top-tier college officials is?

It's all fun an games until you actually have to offer an informed opinion. Throwing around elementary statements like "the officiating is bad" is extremely lazy and, frankly, reeks of bias.

[devildeac]

26 points in ten minutes
37 points in thirty minutes...

0 FG last 7:08
3 FT last 5:50

[jv001]

It's not really about making plays. It's about stepping on someone's neck when you need to step on someone's neck. It's about laying a guy out on his way to the rim to send a message that you're not going to let your team get manhandled anymore. Battier usually wasn't that guy.

You threw me off when you said special player. You meant an in-forcer like Danny Meagher. GoDuke!

[weezie]

Should I watch the replay or just say next play? I only saw the last 4 minutes and that was painful

Hhhmm. I say skip it.

Unless you want to see CurlyBuzz sweat and whine but you'll see that during the ACC tourney anyway. And forevermore.

[bludevil_33]

You threw me off when you said special player. You meant an in-forcer like Danny Meagher. GoDuke!

I was trying not to get moderated a second time ;) My original post was PG-13 but still a bit too colorful for tonight's mood...

[Saratoga2]

Bad way to lose for Duke who had the game in control a number of times but got sloppy with the ball to give VT a chance. Grayson in particular needs to make smarter decisions and avoid the risky passes. Wendell Carter looked tired tonight and didn't give a lot of energy during the game. Trent couldn't get anything going consistently but that was due to good and energetic VT defense. Bagley at times didn't transition his defense to the corner but rebounded and tried hard. Coach K had Trevon in the game at the end for ball handling but he was an obvious choice to foul and it worked for VT.

I thought Bolden gave good minutes and AOC came in and gave the team a lift with his energy and smart play.

[weezie]

It's not really about making plays. It's about stepping on someone's neck when you need to step on someone's neck. It's about laying a guy out on his way to the rim to send a message that you're not going to let your team get manhandled anymore. Battier usually wasn't that guy.

Good lord! I agree completely on the Battier bio and also agree he was stone cold finesse.

Laying out a guy in this college sports environment today might end up with a player being put in cuffs and into the back of a police car. Everybody is on edge this season.

[jv001]

Bad way to lose for Duke who had the game in control a number of times but got sloppy with the ball to give VT a chance. Grayson in particular needs to make smarter decisions and avoid the risky passes. Wendell Carter looked tired tonight and didn't give a lot of energy during the game. Trent couldn't get anything going consistently but that was due to good and energetic VT defense. Bagley at times didn't transition his defense to the corner but rebounded and tried hard. Coach K had Trevon in the game at the end for ball handling but he was an obvious choice to foul and it worked for VT.

I thought Bolden gave good minutes and AOC came in and gave the team a lift with his energy and smart play.

Could Alex be the freshman, Grayson in ACCT and NCAAT? We need a lift offensively. GoDuke!

[azzefkram]

Did the refs suck? Yes they did but that was one of the most self inflicted losses I've seen in a long time. Coach mentioned how tired the team was during the Syracuse presser. Maybe that helps explain the cavalcade of unforced errors. I'm glad that Marvin is back but I can't say I'm loving how one dimensional the offense has become.

[ChillinDuke]

The post was an absolute bloodbath today. Unacceptable to let that go.

We weathered a lot in a vicious road game. I was more or less pleased with the performance in the face of a lot of adversity.

The endgame was poorly managed on a lot of levels. Some of it was us. Some of it was game style, in no small part due to refs.

The Duval inbound was a major, major error at the most crucial moment. Indefensible IMO.

The defense was largely great again.

Good contributions from entire team.

And it all boils down to a great last defensive play where VT got a right place right time put back.

No more road games from here on out.

We are probably out of the 1-seed race.

I'm frustrated. But I'm OK. This game was not anywhere near as terrible a performance as some are making it out to be.

Man, I'm glad we have UNC next.

- Chillin

[uh_no]

It was a near perfect clone of those games.

to use my user name appropriately:



game
offense
defense


bc
116
113


NCSU
118
116


UVA
119
90


NCSU
121
117


UNC
128
109


VT
102
87



So in 5 losses we played really good offense. Tonight we played pretty bad offense. below average for the country (which is currently 106). In two of those losses we played really great defense.

So no, this looks nothing like any of our losses so far, and is only close to UVA in that we played really good defense.

None of our losses so far have been because of a terrible offense. tonight was absolutely.

[weezie]

So, the full court press is wearing them down. Maybe they've had to keep it up in order to facilitate communication. I dunno.

[Kjeffrey]

Good lord! I agree completely on the Battier bio and also agree he was stone cold finesse.

Laying out a guy in this college sports environment today might end up with a player being put in cuffs and into the back of a police car. Everybody is on edge this season.

I think it might depend on the player and the team. I have seen some Kansas games recently and was surprised at what Azubuike was allowed to do to opposing players. He is very physical and is not shy with his forearms and elbows. Now if Grayson did any of that it would most definitely be a different story.

[jv001]

The post was an absolute bloodbath today. Unacceptable to let that go.

We weathered a lot in a vicious road game. I was more or less pleased with the performance in the face of a lot of adversity.

The endgame was poorly managed on a lot of levels. Some of it was us. Some of it was game style, in no small part due to refs.

The Duval inbound was a major, major error at the most crucial moment. Indefensible IMO.

The defense was largely great again.

Good contributions from entire team.

And it all boils down to a great last defensive play where VT got a right place right time put back.

No more road games from here on out.

We are probably out of the 1-seed race.

I'm frustrated. But I'm OK. This game was not anywhere near as terrible a performance as some are making it out to be.

Man, I'm glad we have UNC next.

- Chillin

Good post, Chillin, but I will add; be careful what you wish for(jinx). Our offense needs to get better fast. :cool: GoDuke!

[Kfanarmy]

So, what does "inconsistent" mean to you? Again, would you care to guess what the accuracy rate of ACC and other top-tier college officials is?

It's all fun an games until you actually have to offer an informed opinion. Throwing around elementary statements like "the officiating is bad" is extremely lazy and, frankly, reeks of bias.

I'll play. I was listening to the game on xm for the first 10 minutes or so. Over and over they kept saying "Tech got away with one there. Clear shove in the back on Bagley" or "Wendell Carter." When the home team announcers are saying stuff like that consistently, you know there is a problem.

[weezie]

...Now if Grayson did any of that it would most definitely be a different story.

I know I am going to regret this but I actually thought of Roger Ayers when the first half dust up took place. I really think he would have nipped the woofing in the bud.
These three stripes seemed way out of their comfort zone tonight.

[elvis14]

If you have the stomach to rewatch this game, watch Marvin off the ball. He was Mauled over and over again. This game was 8 on 5 and the 5 lost, again. If I wanted to watch a football game, I'd go back and watch Deshawn Watson beat Bama, not this crap.