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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 60, Syracuse 44 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-24-2018, 08:15 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

weezie
02-24-2018, 08:17 PM
Bolden!

WVDUKEFAN
02-24-2018, 08:19 PM
I agree with Weezie.

carteretdevil
02-24-2018, 08:20 PM
Thought Carter had another excellent game tonight. Love his workman like attitude and how he has improved his FT % since the first of the year. He is reliable down the stretch from the line and we will need that in March.

CameronCrazy'11
02-24-2018, 08:20 PM
Are we the zone version of Virginia now?

Devilwin
02-24-2018, 08:21 PM
Bolden...No doubt..

dukejim1
02-24-2018, 08:22 PM
For 35 minutes ugliest offensive game I have seen in 60+ years of watching Duke Basketball. Mike Tissaw, Casey Sanders, and Eric Meek could have led this team. Defense a lot more active and efficient than offense. Defense slightly better with Javin than Bagley but not near enough to say that lineup should get major minutes. My vote for MOTM may go to Bolden. I thought it was his best. ACC win always good but not fun to watch.

accfanfrom1970
02-24-2018, 08:22 PM
Bolden played well, 7 and 6. Made free throws, didn't miss. Impressed.

Troublemaker
02-24-2018, 08:22 PM
Are we the zone version of Virginia now?

Virginia's the m2m version of us.

NM Duke Fan
02-24-2018, 08:23 PM
Bolden!

A great job with nice stats in only 12 minutes for Bolden!

This game overall was good for the team despite being hard on the eyes at times, the will to keep playing hard and well on D overall despite outside shots clanking off over and over. Such a night can happen to any team, but the D must go on! And it did. And Bagley had a nice first game back.

DaleDuke7
02-24-2018, 08:23 PM
I think it was a great performance by our team. Shots were not falling for either team but I think Syracuse’s woes were more due to our defense whereas we were missing several open jumpers. I’m loving our zone defense so far. I still would like to see it against a fully healthy top tier team. Bagley was awesome and our team did a great job getting each other easy looks at the basket. Who would’ve thought Duval would be the one to hit the first three of the game for us after starting 0-15? I continue to be impressed and hopeful that we continue this track into March.

ElSid
02-24-2018, 08:23 PM
Doesn't matter if we shoot 2 for a million from three when the zone keeps stifling folks.

Syracuse is not a great offensive team, but still. Boston College is worse per Kenpom and they hung 89 on us earlier.

Our D is real which completely changes our complexion.

Intensity level across the board is just different the last four or five games. That's been fun to watch. Even though this slog was largely not.

TheOldBattleship
02-24-2018, 08:24 PM
Lots to talk about in this game--Bagley back with like 400 dunks, Carter continuing his impressive distribution on offense and his dominant defense in the center of the zone, nobody hitting shots from outside of the paint, and, relatedly, the fact that we still managed to get the W because the defense overall looks better and better--but I want to make sure to give Bolden another shoutout. He looked great last game, he looked great this game, and this is starting to look like a trend. When he hunts rebounds outside of his area, he's legitimately a force of a rebounder on both ends. And that dunk through contact? Man. He's still not playing a ton because we have two NBA big men in front of him, of course, but 7 and 6 on two shots in only 12 minutes is nothing to sneeze at. If he can stay aggressive and healthy, he could easily play a big role down the stretch this year. And then next year he could be a really crucial piece of the puzzle.

rocketeli
02-24-2018, 08:25 PM
all those missed threes, in the home gym, and the home team ball, were weird. Did someone do some "maintenance" on the goals before the game, painting them, or new nets or something and inadvertently push them out of kilter?

Dub
02-24-2018, 08:26 PM
This team is slowly becoming one of my favorite Duke teams of all time. I hate that we’ll only have them for one year, but this late season stretch is so fun to watch. The kids are having a blast and it shows. We’ve finally become a team. I hope K can keep them focused and keep the bench involved. We’re looking special now.

And our Defense. Who the heck saw this coming?!? I love how Tre was the first to hit a 3 for us today. Kid has taken a lot of heat but he doesn’t lack confidence. Overall, I’m super pumped about where we’re headed and any given night any of our starting 5 can drop 20. What a luxury to have! Let’s go Duke!

ipatent
02-24-2018, 08:28 PM
Strange game, 11% from three and a comfortable win anyway. I'll take it.

mr. synellinden
02-24-2018, 08:28 PM
I predict our Kenpom defense will move into the top 12.

subzero02
02-24-2018, 08:29 PM
We're playing like a top 15 defense now... hope we keep it up.

elvis14
02-24-2018, 08:34 PM
In the pregame thread someone predicted and ugly game. Wow were they spot on.

Happy to have won, glad we played good defense. Glad to see Marvin play well on both ends. Glad Wendell Carter is on our team!

simplyluvin
02-24-2018, 08:35 PM
Considering this was really an off night offensively, it’s good to get a win from stellar defense. Good to see the defensive tenacity with Bags and getting him on an offensive groove. Did not like seeing Grayson’s offensive game revert to pre-bags injury. Worried that Grayson and MB3 are somewhat zero sum offensively. Hope I’m wrong here. Let’s see in the next two.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-24-2018, 08:36 PM
We’re learning how to win in multiple ways, offensively and defensively.

The zone D is making us less reactive on defense, allowing us to dictate play on our terms.

This team is getting primed for a deep March run.

You can feel it coming now.

-jk
02-24-2018, 08:36 PM
Cuse a completely different team with Chukwu on the bench.

-jk

Bluedevil114
02-24-2018, 08:40 PM
Bolden is now a key reserve as he can now come in and give great minutes while resting Bagley and Carter. His hook is getting to be ungaurdable and he and Carter made free throws. The defense is active in a zone and it appears we may be better at playing it than Syracuse. Javin gave us really good minutes. Call me impressed. Watching Duke for 44 years and this is a fun team to watch. Those threes will drop when we need them. This team now has the feel of a #1 seed that can win it all. Go Duke.

Gooch
02-24-2018, 08:40 PM
Considering this was really an off night offensively, it’s good to get a win from stellar defense. Good to see the defensive tenacity with Bags and getting him on an offensive groove. Did not like seeing Grayson’s offensive game revert to pre-bags injury. Worried that Grayson and MB3 are somewhat zero sum offensively. Hope I’m wrong here. Let’s see in the next two.

I felt like Grayson was still aggressive offensively and just missed open threes (like everyone else). I felt like the offense flowed vs. just dumping the ball in to Bagley.

Also thought the high-low/big-to-big passing was really good tonight. Excited to see the team continue to improve!

subzero02
02-24-2018, 08:45 PM
Considering this was really an off night offensively, it’s good to get a win from stellar defense. Good to see the defensive tenacity with Bags and getting him on an offensive groove. Did not like seeing Grayson’s offensive game revert to pre-bags injury. Worried that Grayson and MB3 are somewhat zero sum offensively. Hope I’m wrong here. Let’s see in the next two.

I'm not buying the ALLEN/BAGLEY can't both be offensively productive narrative. Grayson can make 3s with Bagley on the floor, he just didn't do it tonight. His stroke was off for some time but the last few games he has found it.

juise
02-24-2018, 08:46 PM
I predict our Kenpom defense will move into the top 12.

I’m not saying that I have already checked 5 times to see if the site updated, but I’m not denying it either. I was thinking just below 20th... 16 at highest (given that Cuse isn’t a good offense).

I thought Grayson played essentially the same way he played against Louisville. The zone dictated less driving, but I thought he played with the same aggression and confidence. Wendell is a really good passer. All four of the bigs are rebounding well in the zone. I thought this was a successful reintegration of MB35.

jv001
02-24-2018, 08:46 PM
Grayson did not shoot the ball well but he didn't seem to hesitate to let it go. He had a very nice game overall with: 6 assists, 1 turnover, 3 steals, 2 rebounds and played the top of our zone defense very well. I thought both he and Gary Trent, Jr, were guarded very well by the Syracuse zone. They seemed to rush their shots, especially in the first half. It's great to see we can win a game with only 2 made threes. GoDuke!

proelitedota
02-24-2018, 08:47 PM
We UVA now.

Great defense but I missed the days were we averaged 90+.

mgtr
02-24-2018, 08:48 PM
I'm not buying the ALLEN/BAGLEY can't both be offensively productive narrative. Grayson can make 3s with Bagley on the floor, he just didn't do it tonight.

I agree with your point, but was there a game in which they both scored well?

duke2x
02-24-2018, 08:50 PM
Duke clinched a double bye for the ACC tournament tonight. If Clemson, State, and UNC (not likely here) all win out, Duke is the 4 seed. It is much more likely Duke gets the 2 or 3 seed.

I'm happy the 3 point streak is still alive. I think Duke is one of a few schools that has hit one in every game since the shot was introduced.

dragoneye776
02-24-2018, 08:51 PM
Absolutely despicable commentating by Dickie V. Spends the first 11 min (of game time) talking only about the FBI, not a word about the game. Kept repeating the exact same points about the FBI the whole game. After one of Carter's dunks, he goes "We're getting paid for this, mom! We're getting paid!" Then he ends the game with a passionate defense of Pitino.

ncexnyc
02-24-2018, 08:53 PM
We went from Wednesday's gem of a game to this ugly game, yet still came away with a 16 point win. I was going to use the word comfortable before the point total, but with how ugly the offense looked there was that little voice in the back of my mind telling me that we were letting the Orangemen hang around for way too long. Fortunately, the team managed to turn a few turnovers into some quick points and they cruised from there.

Based on MBIII's minutes I'd say the missed games were based on precaution. I could be wrong, but I don't recall seeing Marvin wearing any type of knee support.

Everything is shaping up to an epic showdown next Saturday night and CIS should be rocking.

duke4ever19
02-24-2018, 08:54 PM
I predict our Kenpom defense will move into the top 12.

Pretty darn close . . . No.16 right now.

subzero02
02-24-2018, 08:54 PM
Duke clinched a double bye for the ACC tournament tonight. If Clemson, State, and UNC (not likely here) all win out, Duke is the 4 seed. It is much more likely Duke gets the 2 or 3 seed.

I'm happy the 3 point streak is still alive. I think Duke is one of a few schools that has hit one in every game since the shot was introduced.

According to this article, Kentucky has the longest streak. I'm not certain of the article's accuracy or what our streak is.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seccountry.com/kentucky/kentucky-basketball-3-pointer-streak/amp

kAzE
02-24-2018, 08:58 PM
Pretty darn close . . . No.16 right now.

The past 5 games, we've been an elite defense. This team is taking off right now, and it's all coming together at just the right time. I think we're playing better than just about anyone right now. Just hope we keep bringing it every game on D. If we can become consistent there, there's no reason we can't win it all.

juise
02-24-2018, 08:58 PM
I’m not saying that I have already checked 5 times to see if the site updated, but I’m not denying it either. I was thinking just below 20th... 16 at highest (given that Cuse isn’t a good offense).


16/highest it was. :)

trinity92
02-24-2018, 09:03 PM
I felt like Grayson was still aggressive offensively and just missed open threes (like everyone else). I felt like the offense flowed vs. just dumping the ball in to Bagley.

Also thought the high-low/big-to-big passing was really good tonight. Excited to see the team continue to improve!

Absolutely agreed. Grayson was still his recently aggressive self, shots just didn’t drop. Looked like bagley was instructed to fit in, which he did magnificently.

KandG
02-24-2018, 09:05 PM
That was pretty painful to watch for the better part of a half hour plus, even though our zone made them look just as bad. The only time I really worried was when we only had 2 points in the first 6:29 of the second half (and 29 points total for the first 26:29 of the game). I also worried a bit when we picked up our 7th team foul with just under 10 minutes left in the second half.

We scored 31 in the next 11:17, aided by Chukwu's foul trouble, and we didn't commit any fouls the rest of the half. Our defense held firm. I thought our post passing and the off the ball movement by the bigs was excellent.

I expected our offense might be a little ragged against a very good D and with the return of Bagley, and the numerous substitutions and lineups in the first half probably didn't help with the lack of rhythm. Trent Jr seemed to have a really rough night, even with the three in the second half to finally break his drought, as well as the breakaway dunk. Gary passed up a wide open 15 footer in the middle of Syracuse's zone to force a pass to a guarded teammate, and crocodile armed another open 15 footer. He let a long offensive rebound bounce in front of him to a Syracuse player who then ran past him in transition (which almost got Grayson his 4th foul). Looked like K was trying to get to GT several times, realizing his slump might have been making him too tentative.

But all things considered, the guards did their part, even with the rough shooting, and rarely lost their focus on D. And it was a night for the bigs to stand out. Bolden keeps making the most of his limited minutes, Bagley can get an efficient double-double in his sleep, and Wendell continues to make smarter plays on defense and has become a genuine rim protector. Javin gives our zone some teeth and always has the hustle plays and deflections that give his teammates energy.

Virginia Tech on the road will be a good next step to test our improved D, and that final home game should be something else. Can't wait.

84Duke
02-24-2018, 09:11 PM
Absolutely despicable commentating by Dickie V. Spends the first 11 min (of game time) talking only about the FBI, not a word about the game. Kept repeating the exact same points about the FBI the whole game. After one of Carter's dunks, he goes "We're getting paid for this, mom! We're getting paid!" Then he ends the game with a passionate defense of Pitino.

Dickie V’s “best” work came when the officials were reviewing the shot to the face Wendell Carter took to check for a flagrant foul.
Something like “What’s taking them so long? Are they trying to find a cure for cancer? And speaking of cancer...yada, yada, Vitale, yada, yada.”

And the contact lens story was a classic, said nobody ever.

jv001
02-24-2018, 09:15 PM
Dickie V’s “best” work came when the officials were reviewing the shot to the face Wendell Carter took to check for a flagrant foul.
Something like “What’s taking them so long? Are they trying to find a cure for cancer? And speaking of cancer...yada, yada, Vitale, yada, yada.”

And the contact lens story was a classic, said nobody ever.

It's time for Dickie V. to retire. He's a great human being and is loved through out the sports world but he's lost the ability to intelligently comment on the game itself. Too bad, he used to be a good announcer. Now don't get me started on Bill Walton, he's just brain dead. GoDuke!

Wander
02-24-2018, 09:19 PM
Very nice demonstration of CDu and other's theory that Duke's big jump in defense has been due to going all-in on the zone, not Bagley's absence.

nmduke2001
02-24-2018, 09:24 PM
It's time for Dickie V. to retire. He's a great human being and is loved through out the sports world but he's lost the ability to intelligently comment on the game itself. Too bad, he used to be a good announcer. Now don't get me started on Bill Walton, he's just brain dead. GoDuke!

At least Dickie V. said that it was ridiculous that Carter was being lumped in the same conversation as Ayton.

Troublemaker
02-24-2018, 09:25 PM
Not sure how long it'll take for GoDuke to get the presser up but you can watch it here: https://www.pscp.tv/dukebasketball/1djxXdzjmWyxZ

Coach K explained what happened regarding the Wendell situation. Worth a view. (Essentially, Wendell's parents were introduced to Dawkins through a friend and were supposed to meet with him. Wendell's dad didn't like the cut of his jib right away and left. Wendell's mom, because she didn't want to be rude, sat with Dawkins a little while longer but didn't eat anything before also leaving. They didn't have anything to do with Dawkins again after that day.)

dragoneye776
02-24-2018, 09:26 PM
At least Dickie V. said that it was ridiculous that Carter was being lumped in the same conversation as Ayton.

When Dickie V spewed stream of consciousness for an hour, he was bound to get at least one thing right. Doesn't excuse any of his other stuff, especially his defense of Pitino.

CrazyNotCrazie
02-24-2018, 09:50 PM
At least Dickie V. said that it was ridiculous that Carter was being lumped in the same conversation as Ayton.

This and his questioning about the pointlessness of the long replay review were his only pluses. When Chukwu fouled out (which basic sealed the game for us) he did not mention it at all because he was going on and on about something totally unrelated. He got in a nice plug for his new book. And I'm sure the suits at ESPN were thrilled when he was speaking about Mike Patrick (who all reports indicate retired) and saying he hoped Patrick would land another job somewhere else, leading one to believe he was terminated/not renewed. I usually defend Vitale and appreciate his passion for the game and all he has done over the years, but it is really getting unpleasant to listen to him.

ElSid
02-24-2018, 09:52 PM
Absolutely agreed. Grayson was still his recently aggressive self, shots just didn’t drop. Looked like bagley was instructed to fit in, which he did magnificently.

The 'Cuse zone typically takes away the three pretty well. I don't think Grayson got a lot of "good" looks tonight. They were all NBA distance, contested. Don't remember glaring opportunities, like one Gary missed. Gary later made one that was wide open.

So I think Grayson took some shots that didn't fall and then didn't force it. Net positive. I wouldn't think for a second this discourages him or the team about his shooting.

I think Grayson and Bagley can score well in the same game, but there's a little pick your poison. The zone was out on us so we passed to the key and picked them apart with great interior passing. They could have sagged back and tried to stop that but then we'd get more good looks from 3. My take at least! Anyone else remember a very good look for Grayson?

UrinalCake
02-24-2018, 10:06 PM
Great to get the win in this ugly game. The outcome never really felt in doubt. Lots of active hands on defense, slapping balls away after rebounds and in transition. Was great to see Bagley back in action, his ability to jump over the zone for alley-oops was amazing. He looked tired with a lot of time left in the second half, which is understandable, but K chose to leave him out there. I guess so he can work through playing tired and continue to get some reps. He looked a bit lost in the zone a few times but didn't get burned. He seems to play further up on the wing than other bigs, maybe because he feels he has enough athleticism to recover back if needed.

Jack White has been a pleasant surprise, he's just a beast on the boards. He's basically taken on Alex's minutes as this team has formed a new identity around defense, rebounding and toughness.

When Duval hit his three, the reaction from the crowd was a very audible "no, no.... yes!" The coaches apparently have told him to keep shooting when he's wide open. His form still looks awful but if he can hit even 33% when wide open then then I'll take that.

Neals384
02-24-2018, 10:08 PM
DONT LOOK NOW BUT Duke is 79 for 94 (84%) from the charity stripe since leaving the dump on the hump.Nice to see Javan cut down on his fouls while still bringing huge energy.
Absolutely despicable commentating by Dickie V. Spends the first 11 min (of game time) talking only about the FBI, not a word about the game. Kept repeating the exact same points about the FBI the whole game. After one of Carter's dunks, he goes "We're getting paid for this, mom! We're getting paid!" Then he ends the game with a passionate defense of Pitino.I'm ashamed to say I've reset the bar on announcers - if they talk about the game at all I give a passing grade.Still just a big F for JimmyV and the dope who kept encouraging him.

jwillfan
02-24-2018, 10:12 PM
Top 5 on twitter: https://twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/967585852900675585

Interesting that MBIII's reverse jam, #1, should have been and 1. Clear on the replay he gets hit. Lots of that let go during the game.

kAzE
02-24-2018, 10:13 PM
DONT LOOK NOW BUT Duke is 79 for 94 (84%) from the charity stripe since leaving the dump on the hump.Nice to see Javan cut down on his fouls while still bringing huge energy.I'm ashamed to say I've reset the bar on announcers - if they talk about the game at all I give a passing grade.Still just a big F for JimmyV and the dope who kept encouraging him.

Dickie V . . .

But I'm sure Jimmy V would have been be frustrated with the commentary too.

gep
02-24-2018, 10:21 PM
Was Bagley mostly on his right side rather than his left side???? To throw off the scouting reports?:confused:

budwom
02-24-2018, 10:28 PM
Pretty darn close . . . No.16 right now.

we must've had a bad post game meal, now we're down to number 17...

VA_BDevil
02-24-2018, 10:43 PM
Happy to see the sustained performance on D. But I'm hoping those rims get replaced before next Saturday night.

FerryFor50
02-24-2018, 11:12 PM
Not sure how long it'll take for GoDuke to get the presser up but you can watch it here: https://www.pscp.tv/dukebasketball/1djxXdzjmWyxZ

Coach K explained what happened regarding the Wendell situation. Worth a view. (Essentially, Wendell's parents were introduced to Dawkins through a friend and were supposed to meet with him. Wendell's dad didn't like the cut of his jib right away and left. Wendell's mom, because she didn't want to be rude, sat with Dawkins a little while longer but didn't eat anything before also leaving. They didn't have anything to do with Dawkins again after that day.)

Didn’t stop ESPN from leading every highlight with “and another player implicated in the report.” Irritating.

Rich
02-24-2018, 11:17 PM
Didn’t stop ESPN from leading every highlight with “and another player implicated in the report.” Irritating.

I echo the comment that the presser is worth watching. Most are 8-10 minutes and this one was 16 minutes. Coach pontificates (his word) on the scandal at length and even addresses the inequity in the media coverage. He also discusses a bit what he thinks the solution should be. Good stuff in there.

Go Duke link: http://www.nmnathletics.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?db_oem_id=4200&DB_OEM_ID=4200&utm_source=4200&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=trafficpattern&DB_OEM_ID=4200&_ga=2.174223908.709951405.1519530900-1404293064.1510538475 (click Press Conferences and scroll down)

jv001
02-24-2018, 11:20 PM
The 'Cuse zone typically takes away the three pretty well. I don't think Grayson got a lot of "good" looks tonight. They were all NBA distance, contested. Don't remember glaring opportunities, like one Gary missed. Gary later made one that was wide open.

So I think Grayson took some shots that didn't fall and then didn't force it. Net positive. I wouldn't think for a second this discourages him or the team about his shooting.

I think Grayson and Bagley can score well in the same game, but there's a little pick your poison. The zone was out on us so we passed to the key and picked them apart with great interior passing. They could have sagged back and tried to stop that but then we'd get more good looks from 3. My take at least! Anyone else remember a very good look for Grayson?

None for Grayson and only 1, maybe 2 for Gary. They did dare Trevon to shoot some open ones and he went 1-5 on threes. Syracuse has some length on the wings of their zone and they can close quickly. All of our perimeter guys shot more quickly than they normally do. Didn't want to eat a basketball. GoDuke!

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-24-2018, 11:48 PM
See, I disagree with the criticism of our offense tonight. I thought we took care of the ball against a tough defense. We moved the ball well with 16 assists on 22 made baskets leading to many of our 13 dunks. We didn’t take many bad shots. We just had a terrible shooting night. Contagiously bad shooting. But there is a difference between bad offense and missing shots. Thankfully we played such good D that we were able to overcome our poor outside shooting without much trouble. I mean, the DBR chat-o-meter was a dull 2 or 3 tonight compared to the 11 it usually is. To me, that says a lot. :cool:

jv001
02-25-2018, 12:13 AM
Some interesting things from the GOAT:
1.Improvement on defense came from getting to practice it more. Gave up 90+ point around exam time.
2. The team has gotten deeper in the rotation. Javin has really stepped up along with others.
3. Team is tired right now. Played at Clemson and then Louisville. Two tough teams and have not practiced much. Tomorrow is a recuperation day.
4. The teams depth has really helped with #3.
5. Grayson's leadership has been great and he has been good at getting the ball to Marvin.
6. The Meal! Mrs. Carter called him while he was out walking his dog and asked him if he had heard the yahoo news and at that time he had not. She explained that her husband got up and left the meal because he didn't like the guy. She being the good southern girl stayed a while trying to be polite. She did not eat anything. The Duke people got right on it and was able to get it taken care of. He applauded the NCAA for their quick work. Coach said it's a horrible time for the game and a change is needed. He said it was impossible to know what's going on with players before they arrive at the schools.
7. Jimmy B said basically the same time but added he thinks that the NCAA should not make a kid go to college. Let them go pro if they want to. That would take care of part of the problem.
8. As for the game itself, he said they tried to take away the 3 point shots of Grayson and Trent and he was pleased with that. He said both teams played good defense and he doesn't think that Mike should be allowed to play zone. He was kidding.

Very good presser. GoDuke!

brlftz
02-25-2018, 02:20 AM
It's remarkable to me that Coach K first learned of the Yahoo story from Wendell's mom. Is that what he's saying? That's amazing.

BandAlum83
02-25-2018, 03:24 AM
Lots to talk about in this game--Bagley back with like 400 dunks, Carter continuing his impressive distribution on offense and his dominant defense in the center of the zone, nobody hitting shots from outside of the paint, and, relatedly, the fact that we still managed to get the W because the defense overall looks better and better--but I want to make sure to give Bolden another shoutout. He looked great last game, he looked great this game, and this is starting to look like a trend. When he hunts rebounds outside of his area, he's legitimately a force of a rebounder on both ends. And that dunk through contact? Man. He's still not playing a ton because we have two NBA big men in front of him, of course, but 7 and 6 on two shots in only 12 minutes is nothing to sneeze at. If he can stay aggressive and healthy, he could easily play a big role down the stretch this year. And then next year he could be a really crucial piece of the puzzle.

Bolden: the key piece and only player in the modern age (at large NCAA Tournament entrants) to three peat championships with 3 different OAD groups!!! :;

Grayson: Can this kid throw an alley oop pass, or what? I've seen it all year, and we've seen others make bad alley oops, but Grayson is incredible. That alley oop at 8:23 from two steps behind the half court line was epic!! Reminds me of Hurley level passes. Maybe better, honestly.

Wendell: I love this guy. Works hard and it shows. The moves, the poise, the attitude, the improvement at the foul line, the love for assists, the stat stuffing galore. Amazing.

Jack White: Aussie Aussie Aussie!!! Oy Oy Oy! He never comes in without fire. He's a rebounding maniac looking to rip the ball away from anyone who gets in his way!

MBIII: dunk-a-maniac. He's back! And he's passing! And he loves the new improved attitude and he's still scoring and certainly looks healthy and integrated!

I don't know what was going on in the paint today. Clearly with our nonexistent 3 point shot today, the game needed to be played in the paint, but my goodness, it was a mans game down low! It was consistently called, but it seemed like the refs just rolled the ball out onto the asphalt and just said "Play". Our guys (and theirs) showed real toughness. This is no finesse team down low.

How many floor burns today? I think more than I've ever seen for any Duke team. Despite the sloppiness and poor shooting, Duke played with a fire in the Belly like I haven't seen in a loooooong time.

Man, I love this team.

jv001
02-25-2018, 06:46 AM
Bolden: the key piece and only player in the modern age (at large NCAA Tournament entrants) to three peat championships with 3 different OAD groups!!! :;

Grayson: Can this kid throw an alley oop pass, or what? I've seen it all year, and we've seen others make bad alley oops, but Grayson is incredible. That alley oop at 8:23 from two steps behind the half court line was epic!! Reminds me of Hurley level passes. Maybe better, honestly.

Wendell: I love this guy. Works hard and it shows. The moves, the poise, the attitude, the improvement at the foul line, the love for assists, the stat stuffing galore. Amazing.

Jack White: Aussie Aussie Aussie!!! Oy Oy Oy! He never comes in without fire. He's a rebounding maniac looking to rip the ball away from anyone who gets in his way!

MBIII: dunk-a-maniac. He's back! And he's passing! And he loves the new improved attitude and he's still scoring and certainly looks healthy and integrated!

I don't know what was going on in the paint today. Clearly with our nonexistent 3 point shot today, the game needed to be played in the paint, but my goodness, it was a mans game down low! It was consistently called, but it seemed like the refs just rolled the ball out onto the asphalt and just said "Play". Our guys (and theirs) showed real toughness. This is no finesse team down low.

How many floor burns today? I think more than I've ever seen for any Duke team. Despite the sloppiness and poor shooting, Duke played with a fire in the Belly like I haven't seen in a loooooong time.

Man, I love this team.

MY God daughter's boyfriend watched the game with me. He's a Wolfpack fan that attends UNCC who also likes Duke. I told him to watch #41 and tell me what you think. After a few minutes, he said, that guy can really rebound. I told him he has a nose for the ball. GoDuke!

oldnavy
02-25-2018, 07:15 AM
Some interesting things from the GOAT:
1.Improvement on defense came from getting to practice it more. Gave up 90+ point around exam time.
2. The team has gotten deeper in the rotation. Javin has really stepped up along with others.
3. Team is tired right now. Played at Clemson and then Louisville. Two tough teams and have not practiced much. Tomorrow is a recuperation day.
4. The teams depth has really helped with #3.
5. Grayson's leadership has been great and he has been good at getting the ball to Marvin.
6. The Meal! Mrs. Carter called him while he was out walking his dog and asked him if he had heard the yahoo news and at that time he had not. She explained that her husband got up and left the meal because he didn't like the guy. She being the good southern girl stayed a while trying to be polite. She did not eat anything. The Duke people got right on it and was able to get it taken care of. He applauded the NCAA for their quick work. Coach said it's a horrible time for the game and a change is needed. He said it was impossible to know what's going on with players before they arrive at the schools.
7. Jimmy B said basically the same time but added he thinks that the NCAA should not make a kid go to college. Let them go pro if they want to. That would take care of part of the problem.
8. As for the game itself, he said they tried to take away the 3 point shots of Grayson and Trent and he was pleased with that. He said both teams played good defense and he doesn't think that Mike should be allowed to play zone. He was kidding.

Very good presser. GoDuke!

I thought the one year rule was an NBA requirement.

dukelifer
02-25-2018, 07:17 AM
See, I disagree with the criticism of our offense tonight. I thought we took care of the ball against a tough defense. We moved the ball well with 16 assists on 22 made baskets leading to many of our 13 dunks. We didn’t take many bad shots. We just had a terrible shooting night. Contagiously bad shooting. But there is a difference between bad offense and missing shots. Thankfully we played such good D that we were able to overcome our poor outside shooting without much trouble. I mean, the DBR chat-o-meter was a dull 2 or 3 tonight compared to the 11 it usually is. To me, that says a lot. :cool:

Duke maintained a decent lead which helped to keep the chat in check. I agree that the shots were there but no one could hit. It happens. But unlike games earlier in the year - Duke is doing an excellent job of limiting second shots. The attention to defensive rebounding has been much improved - and has helped the D. This was ugly but effective. Sometimes you play like UVa. ;)

Saratoga2
02-25-2018, 07:28 AM
Absolutely despicable commentating by Dickie V. Spends the first 11 min (of game time) talking only about the FBI, not a word about the game. Kept repeating the exact same points about the FBI the whole game. After one of Carter's dunks, he goes "We're getting paid for this, mom! We're getting paid!" Then he ends the game with a passionate defense of Pitino.

I muted him 80% of the time but still heard enough to realize the guy is off his rocker. And they pay him for that?

superdave
02-25-2018, 08:25 AM
Didn’t stop ESPN from leading every highlight with “and another player implicated in the report.” Irritating.

It is important to note that Espn is in the ad sales business, not the journalism business.

CDu
02-25-2018, 08:30 AM
Defense continued to look great. Loved it. This week will be the true test of course: VT in Blacksburg and UNC in Durham. Both teams are top-30 offenses compared with Syracuse who is the third-worst offense in the conference. Still it was a dominant display of defense.

As for the offense, I am not worried. We were 2-18 from 3. If we shot even 33% from 3, we win by close to 30. The offense itself was fine, we just weren’t hitting our 3s. On non-3s, we were 20-35 (57%), and we had a very solid assist to turnover ratio. And that came against one of the best defenses in the country.

It was a very impressive win. We will just hope the jumpers start falling again this week.

Loved the effectiveness of Allen’s alley-oops. He threw multiple from near half-court for dunks. Loved Carter’s passing. He is really finding his stride. It seems that Bagley’s injury really let him build confidence, which should serve us well down the stretch. Loved Bolden’s monster contributions in limited minutes. It looks like he also is finally finding his stride. But mostly, I loved the cohesiveness the team showed with the return of Bagley. Things seemed to roll along as if he had not missed a game. Can’t wait for our next game!

Bluedevil114
02-25-2018, 08:36 AM
Some interesting things from the GOAT:
1.Improvement on defense came from getting to practice it more. Gave up 90+ point around exam time.
2. The team has gotten deeper in the rotation. Javin has really stepped up along with others.
3. Team is tired right now. Played at Clemson and then Louisville. Two tough teams and have not practiced much. Tomorrow is a recuperation day.
4. The teams depth has really helped with #3.
5. Grayson's leadership has been great and he has been good at getting the ball to Marvin.
6. The Meal! Mrs. Carter called him while he was out walking his dog and asked him if he had heard the yahoo news and at that time he had not. She explained that her husband got up and left the meal because he didn't like the guy. She being the good southern girl stayed a while trying to be polite. She did not eat anything. The Duke people got right on it and was able to get it taken care of. He applauded the NCAA for their quick work. Coach said it's a horrible time for the game and a change is needed. He said it was impossible to know what's going on with players before they arrive at the schools.
7. Jimmy B said basically the same time but added he thinks that the NCAA should not make a kid go to college. Let them go pro if they want to. That would take care of part of the problem.
8. As for the game itself, he said they tried to take away the 3 point shots of Grayson and Trent and he was pleased with that. He said both teams played good defense and he doesn't think that Mike should be allowed to play zone. He was kidding.

Very good presser. GoDuke!

His dog is named Blue. You forgot that.

camion
02-25-2018, 08:47 AM
As I've always said, this team is a defensive juggernaut.** Now we just need to get some offense going and we'll be really good.

It is amazing how the character of this team has changed with commitment to the zone defense. I don't think we'll be seeing many 90 point games going forward, but I am more confident in our chances of surviving in tight games that will come with one-and-done tournaments. I am also ecstatic with Bolden's progress. He is looking more and more comfortable on the court and he is really large.



**Perhaps just a bit of recency bias.

UrinalCake
02-25-2018, 08:59 AM
It's remarkable to me that Coach K first learned of the Yahoo story from Wendell's mom. Is that what he's saying? That's amazing.

I believe it. The story broke early in the morning, and Wendell’s mom called him later that same morning. I’m sure Coach K doesn’t spend his whole day refreshing Twitter on his phone like all of us do 8-). Maybe someone from the Duke sports information office would have eventually called him, but he’s a human being who has times of the day that are to himself.

That’s cool that his dog is named Blue. I wonder if he has a cat named White 8-)

arnie
02-25-2018, 09:11 AM
It is important to note that Espn is in the ad sales business, not the journalism business.

Thank you - I like short, on point statements. You’ve succinctly summed up the purpose of ESPN.

camion
02-25-2018, 09:22 AM
Thank you - I like short, on point statements. You’ve succinctly summed up the purpose of ESPN.

Yup.

The E in ESPN is for Entertainment.

The N in ESPN is NOT for News.

NYBri
02-25-2018, 09:35 AM
The transformation of this team has been head spinning...from both a player’s perspective and a fan’s perspective.

I, a fan, was in the This-team-is-no-fun-to-watch camp. Also, not being able to defend anyone made for little confidence in being able to put together a tournament run.

How things have changed. On a night where we score 60 and can’t hit the ocean with a jump shot, we win comfortably. Good sign for the upcoming tournaments.

Still can’t believe that ally pop by Grayson. :cool:

Stray Gator
02-25-2018, 09:57 AM
Absolutely despicable commentating by Dickie V. Spends the first 11 min (of game time) talking only about the FBI, not a word about the game. Kept repeating the exact same points about the FBI the whole game. After one of Carter's dunks, he goes "We're getting paid for this, mom! We're getting paid!" Then he ends the game with a passionate defense of Pitino.

I'm no fan of Vitale's announcing. But I watched the replay of that sequence this morning, and in fairness it should be noted that the context of his statement "We're getting paid for this, Mom!" was completely unrelated to the Carters. After Wendell's dunk, while the teams were leaving the floor for a timeout, Vitale observed the Cameron Crazies going bonkers (which was being shown on the TV monitors) and transitioned into his long-familiar ravings about the fabulous game environment in Cameron (he also referenced Allen Field House) and then exclaimed "We're getting paid for this, Mom!" -- which was clearly intended to say, as he has said many times in the past, that he can't believe the network is paying him to enjoy a game in one of the most exciting venues in college basketball. He was obviously pretending to be a kid saying that to his own mom.

Criticism of Vitale's announcing style is certainly justified; but the man has never shown the kind of disrespect for a player or a player's family that is being portrayed here. To ascribe that kind of malicious comment to him, when the context clearly shows it was not his intent, is unwarranted.

MrPoon
02-25-2018, 10:22 AM
I'm no fan of Vitale's announcing. But I watched the replay of that sequence this morning, and in fairness it should be noted that the context of his statement "We're getting paid for this, Mom!" was completely unrelated to the Carters. After Wendell's dunk, while the teams were leaving the floor for a timeout, Vitale observed the Cameron Crazies going bonkers (which was being shown on the TV monitors) and transitioned into his long-familiar ravings about the fabulous game environment in Cameron (he also referenced Allen Field House) and then exclaimed "We're getting paid for this, Mom!" -- which was clearly intended to say, as he has said many times in the past, that he can't believe the network is paying him to enjoy a game in one of the most exciting venues in college basketball. He was obviously pretending to be a kid saying that to his own mom.

Criticism of Vitale's announcing style is certainly justified; but the man has never shown the kind of disrespect for a player or a player's family that is being portrayed here. To ascribe that kind of malicious comment to him, when the context clearly shows it was not his intent, is unwarranted.

That is how I took V’s statement too. The timing was unfortunate but Carter was never accused of getting paid so it woudn’t have made sense even if he was trying to be nasty or cute. He was talking about himself getting paid. V. is at the point where he is a cheerleader and little else. But I have a soft spot for him. His voice connects me to some of my favorite sporting events. Plus I’ve seen him in person at games and he is the genuine deal spending time and giving photos to everyone who asks, especially kids.

bluedev_92
02-25-2018, 10:35 AM
That is how I took V’s statement too. The timing was unfortunate but Carter was never accused of getting paid so it woudn’t have made sense even if he was trying to be nasty or cute. He was talking about himself getting paid. V. is at the point where he is a cheerleader and little else. But I have a soft spot for him. His voice connects me to some of my favorite sporting events. Plus I’ve seen him in person at games and he is the genuine deal spending time and giving photos to everyone who asks, especially kids.

I have a soft spot for him as well & I have no issues with Dickie V. He's a very nice & compassionate man & love it whenever he comes to Cameron.

azzefkram
02-25-2018, 10:41 AM
I really like it when Duke gets its bad shooting games out of its system in a win. Positive minutes all around. I loved seeing Bolden rebound in traffic. Earlier this year he doesn't get those rebounds. Carter continues to amaze. Javin played very well without fouling. Trent couldn't hit water from a rowboat in the middle of the ocean but was very active on D. Grayson had some really pretty assists and some great steals. Marvin didn't look like he missed a beat. Tre was active at the top of the zone. He seems to be having a bit of bad luck around the basket. Many of his shots around the rim went in earlier this year. I'm sure Coach K has given him the green light but I feel like he is taking too many threes. Jack is very effective in the zone and seems to have a nose for the ball.

As for Dickie V, I don't really hear him anymore. He does appear to really love the game and I imagine he would be entertaining to the casual fan.

chrishoke
02-25-2018, 10:45 AM
V is a nice compassionate man that needs to be retired from announcing games.

cato
02-25-2018, 11:02 AM
As for Dickie V, I don't really hear him anymore.

Me neither. Thank you, mute button.

Saratoga2
02-25-2018, 11:07 AM
My take is Duke's defense totally confused the Syracuse offense. Our bigs and better than their bigs and we have more of them. On the other hand, Syracuse played an effective zone and mostly our shooters got very few good looks. In addition, we were sloppy with some of our interior passes from the perimeter. We can get away with that against a weak offensive team but need to be better with the ball against a better team. UNC is coming up and we not only will have to defend but need to clean up our ball security.

COYS
02-25-2018, 11:20 AM
I actually really enjoyed watching this game. After seeing our defense struggle against mediocre offenses earlier in the season, I had fun watching Syracuse look completely discombobulated for almost the entirety of the game. I absolutely love how our size and length become extra effective when we play this zone. I mean, we frequently played lineups in which Grayson was the shortest guy on the team and the back 3 of the 2-3 zone were all 6’10’’ or taller. Syracuse struggles to even pass around the perimeter on many of their possessions. Earlier in the season we would’ve lost this game by 10 or more (assuming we shoot just as poorly), but this game was never in doubt because our defense was so dominant. That’s a beautiful turnaround to my eyes.

The bench has really come alive, of late, too. Marques and Javin have elevated their level of play, substantially, from where they were pre-injury. While Alex has seen his minutes decline a little, we know he is still capable of hitting a big shot and providing energy off the bench in a pinch. And of course, Jack gives us quality depth across the back line of our 2-3. We are legitimately 9 deep. That doesn’t mean that K needs or wants to play all 9 guys substantial minutes, but Jack and Alex are there, if needed.

As others have noted, I’m not worried at all about the offense. We simply missed a lot of open shots. No, we won’t want that to happen against a better offensive team, but our ability to survive bad shooting nights is dramatically increased when we can play defense at this level. Now, we just gotta to take care of business in Blacksburg.

rsvman
02-25-2018, 11:45 AM
We out-Syracused Syracuse! That's pretty much what it boiled down to.

I'm still skeptical that a team can win a national championship playing zone D, but I realize that Syracuse did win one. They were also in the national title game back in 1987 (if memory serves; that's the game they lost to Indiana on a last-second baseline jumper) and made the final four very recently (year before last, maybe?), famously destroying a strong Virginia team on the way.

And I think our zone is actually quite a bit better than theirs, mainly (in my opinion) because Carter, Bagley, DeLaurier, and Bolden are all reasonably formidable characters to face once if you manage to get inside the zone. They not only block a lot of shots, but they alter a lot of shots.

I'd still love to see Coach K sprinkle in some man-to-man from time to time, even if only for one possession here and there, just because, but maybe it's not necessary. Prior to this 4- or 5-game stretch the only time we played zone the entire game was when we beat Michigan State even though Bagley left the game with an eye injury. So, essentially, it seems to work pretty well. And I'd argue that our zone is a lot better now than it was when we played Michigan State.

pfrduke
02-25-2018, 12:19 PM
I'm no fan of Vitale's announcing. But I watched the replay of that sequence this morning, and in fairness it should be noted that the context of his statement "We're getting paid for this, Mom!" was completely unrelated to the Carters. After Wendell's dunk, while the teams were leaving the floor for a timeout, Vitale observed the Cameron Crazies going bonkers (which was being shown on the TV monitors) and transitioned into his long-familiar ravings about the fabulous game environment in Cameron (he also referenced Allen Field House) and then exclaimed "We're getting paid for this, Mom!" -- which was clearly intended to say, as he has said many times in the past, that he can't believe the network is paying him to enjoy a game in one of the most exciting venues in college basketball. He was obviously pretending to be a kid saying that to his own mom.

Criticism of Vitale's announcing style is certainly justified; but the man has never shown the kind of disrespect for a player or a player's family that is being portrayed here. To ascribe that kind of malicious comment to him, when the context clearly shows it was not his intent, is unwarranted.

Also, are we sure he didn’t say “we’re getting paid for this Bob” given that Bob Wichusen was his co broadcaster? Bob and Mom can sound pretty similar (particularly when being shouted in Vitale-ese)

Stray Gator
02-25-2018, 12:25 PM
Also, are we sure he didn’t say “we’re getting paid for this Bob” given that Bob Wichusen was his co broadcaster? Bob and Mom can sound pretty similar (particularly when being shouted in Vitale-ese)

That makes even more sense, given the context.

curtis325
02-25-2018, 12:47 PM
My take is Duke's defense totally confused the Syracuse offense. Our bigs and better than their bigs and we have more of them. On the other hand, Syracuse played an effective zone and mostly our shooters got very few good looks. In addition, we were sloppy with some of our interior passes from the perimeter. We can get away with that against a weak offensive team but need to be better with the ball against a better team. UNC is coming up and we not only will have to defend but need to clean up our ball security.

On the other other hand, Duke's dunkers got some really good looks.

dragoneye776
02-25-2018, 01:07 PM
On the other other hand, Duke's dunkers got some really good looks.

And it's not like Syracuse's zone was staying home on our shooters and not collapsing in the paint. Most of the inside dunks had three syracuse defenders in the paint vs our two bigs, while two syracuse defenders covered our perimeter. The fact that we still got so many great dunks reflects on the quality of our big men.

WVDUKEFAN
02-25-2018, 01:25 PM
We weren't going to win a title playing man to man.

tteettimes
02-25-2018, 01:36 PM
we weren't going to win a title playing man to man.


hello...........

Nugget
02-25-2018, 01:41 PM
Also, are we sure he didn’t say “we’re getting paid for this Bob” given that Bob Wichusen was his co broadcaster? Bob and Mom can sound pretty similar (particularly when being shouted in Vitale-ese)

That's what I heard. As Stray noted, I interpreted Vitale's comment to just be another (understandable, albeit a bit tired after 30+ years) repetition of his shtick about being lucky to have his job, which he is.

Vitale has long ceased to be a good commentator, but his love for the game, the fans,the players -- and Coaches, whom he does defend a bit too much -- is undoubtedly genuine.

And I thought he and Wichusen showed some real courage in criticizing ESPN's own reporting for erroneously framing the episode in a way that suggested people like Wendell, Knox and Brogdon were similarly situated to those like Dennis Smith and Bam Adebayo who are alleged (at least according to the spreadsheet) to have received significant money.

I think he went overboard in his defense of Pitino, but I have to say that I think Pitino is a smart guy and there's no way he would have knowingly allowed Louisville to engage in such a stupid (and easy to detect) episode as the stripper/hooker activities. His (alleged) involvement in the Bowen episode is a whole nother -- and much less defensible -- story.

devildeac
02-25-2018, 02:14 PM
Shocked that no one has started the thread "Duke, the new UVA?"

:rolleyes:;)

Rich
02-25-2018, 03:34 PM
Shocked that no one has started the thread "Duke, the new UVA?"

:rolleyes:;)

I raised the question in 2015 and then again this year to stir things up, but I also answered this question in April 2015. See post #47 - http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?35135-Is-UVA-The-New-Duke&p=799411#post799411

MChambers
02-25-2018, 05:36 PM
I just watched the game (had tickets to Andy Borowitz last night). Wow, what an ugly game! And the refs sure didn't call much. I'm glad Duke won, but I'm still curious how our D will do against a better offense.

WVDUKEFAN
02-25-2018, 06:01 PM
hello.......

Yesssss................ do you disagree?

tteettimes
02-25-2018, 06:10 PM
Yesssss........ do you disagree?

Anything but......
Our straight M/M is so obviously porous.....I totally agree....no way can we win NChip with only that D

Neals384
02-26-2018, 10:11 AM
Dickie V . . . But I'm sure Jimmy V would have been be frustrated with the commentary too.Yikes! Huge brainf**t there.
We out-Syracused Syracuse! That's pretty much what it boiled down to. I'm still skeptical that a team can win a national championship playing zone D[Snip]I'd still love to see Coach K sprinkle in some man-to-man from time to time, even if only for one possession here and there, just because, but maybe it's not necessary.Die hard!

Neals384
02-26-2018, 10:20 AM
Duke clinched a double bye for the ACC tournament tonight. If Clemson, State, and UNC (not likely here) all win out, Duke is the 4 seed. It is much more likely Duke gets the 2 or 3 seed.I'm happy the 3 point streak is still alive. I think Duke is one of a few schools that has hit one in every game since the shot was introduced.
According to this article, Kentucky has the longest streak. I'm not certain of the article's accuracy or what our streak is.https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seccountry.com/kentucky/kentucky-basketball-3-pointer-streak/ampGoDuke game notes for the VTech game confirm that Kentucky has the longest consecutive game with a 3 pointer at 1,042 (shut out vs. Seton Hall in 1988). UNLV (1,034) and Vanderbilt (1,028) have never been shut out from behind the arc. Duke was last shut out vs Hawaii on 12/30/89 and our streak is 4th longest at 1,013. Vanderbilt?

HereBeforeCoachK
02-26-2018, 11:17 AM
That is how I took V’s statement too. The timing was unfortunate but Carter was never accused of getting paid so it woudn’t have made sense even if he was trying to be nasty or cute. He was talking about himself getting paid. V. is at the point where he is a cheerleader and little else. But I have a soft spot for him. His voice connects me to some of my favorite sporting events. Plus I’ve seen him in person at games and he is the genuine deal spending time and giving photos to everyone who asks, especially kids.

I have a soft spot for him, because I believe he joined ESPN the same year K started coaching at Duke....it was very close to the same year I think....and he was very complimentary of Coach K way before K had any success to speak of. So he's always loved K.

Then again, he seems to love all coaches and all the programs and the game in general. But good Lord, I cannot listen to him. He doesn't "do the game" - he does "the Vitale" and adds a few of his cliches along the way that may or may not have anything to do with the game at hand...

HereBeforeCoachK
02-26-2018, 11:20 AM
I'm still skeptical that a team can win a national championship playing zone D,

I hear ya, and you may be right. That said, this particular Duke team cannot win a natty playing man. Period. Zone is their only path, and they are getting better at it by the game.

That and the bench have me charged up more than I've been all year about this team. Teams are happier when everybody gets PT.

Truth&Justise
02-26-2018, 11:59 AM
GoDuke game notes for the VTech game confirm that Kentucky has the longest consecutive game with a 3 pointer at 1,042 (shut out vs. Seton Hall in 1988). UNLV (1,034) and Vanderbilt (1,028) have never been shut out from behind the arc. Duke was last shut out vs Hawaii on 12/30/89 and our streak is 4th longest at 1,013. Vanderbilt?

This article from November (https://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/college/vanderbilt/2017/11/09/vanderbilt-basketball-best-3-pointers-999-game-streak-vandy-luke-kornet-drew-maddux-vandy/836237001/) indicates that Princeton has also hit a three point shot in every game since it was introduced. However, coming from a smaller conference that only last year introduced a partial conference tournament, Princeton has played in far fewer games over that stretch. As far as I'm aware, their streak is currently still alive, but I can't find any confirmation.

tux
02-26-2018, 01:48 PM
I hear ya, and you may be right. That said, this particular Duke team cannot win a natty playing man. Period. Zone is their only path, and they are getting better at it by the game.

That and the bench have me charged up more than I've been all year about this team. Teams are happier when everybody gets PT.

Well, there have been a few zone teams that have won championships. Syracuse and UNLV come to mind.

K has flirted (or more than flirted) with zone for several seasons now, but the previous pattern was to work in the zone when the man-to-man was horrible and then gradually work back to the m2m. The 2015 team is the best example of that, as they played mostly m2m during the final stretch.

An interesting question is whether K (given a similar group of one-and-done freshmen) will actually just go full zone from the beginning of a season. One could argue that this Duke team would have been better if they'd just committed to and practiced the zone from day 1.

uh_no
02-26-2018, 01:59 PM
Well, there have been a few zone teams that have won championships. Syracuse and UNLV come to mind.

K has flirted (or more than flirted) with zone for several seasons now, but the previous pattern was to work in the zone when the man-to-man was horrible and then gradually work back to the m2m. The 2015 team is the best example of that, as they played mostly m2m during the final stretch.

An interesting question is whether K (given a similar group of one-and-done freshmen) will actually just go full zone from the beginning of a season. One could argue that this Duke team would have been better if they'd just committed to and practiced the zone from day 1.


UL has played a matchup zone hybrid thing forever, and it was good enough to vacate a title.

Anyway, I don't think how many titles a given defense has won is particularly relevant data. More teams win titles playing man because more teams play man.

relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1138/

In our case, I think the zone works for a couple reasons:
1) it allows the big men to stay at home and do what they do best. This has been a flaw in duke defenses for as long as I can remember. There was an (I believe) Rip Hamilton quote in 1999 about how Connecticut could generate whatever mismatch they wanted, and they felt they could exploit it consistently. That doesn't mean the zone is the only way to accomplish this, but I think it's certainly a good choice when not blessed with premier quick 1 on 1 defending guards
2) Given the style, you move less, tire less, and foul less. In theory. I don't have stats to back it up, but it's generally used as conventional wisdom, and makes sense. (given, many things in that category are wrong when analyzed...)
3) I disagree with the assertion that a high-level zone is any easier play than high-level man, though I think it has a shallower learning curve. It can be played well more quickly. That said, we seem to be playing at a very high level right now....
4) you see zones left often, so the zone playing team is at a slight advantage

UrinalCake
02-26-2018, 02:14 PM
An interesting question is whether K (given a similar group of one-and-done freshmen) will actually just go full zone from the beginning of a season.

We won’t have to wait long to get an answer to that question.

Rich
02-26-2018, 02:17 PM
An interesting question is whether K (given a similar group of one-and-done freshmen) will actually just go full zone from the beginning of a season. One could argue that this Duke team would have been better if they'd just committed to and practiced the zone from day 1.

I tend to doubt it. I recall Coach K has said that we're not benefitting from the zone as much as we're benefitting from Grayson Allen's positioning and his ability to direct his teammates at the top of the zone. I think Coach K would consider our exclusive use of zone to be circumstantial to this team.

-jk
02-26-2018, 03:14 PM
I tend to doubt it. I recall Coach K has said that we're not benefitting from the zone as much as we're benefitting from Grayson Allen's positioning and his ability to direct his teammates at the top of the zone. I think Coach K would consider our exclusive use of zone to be circumstantial to this team.

As it is each and every year, keeping K at the top of the game!

-jk

Troublemaker
02-26-2018, 04:00 PM
Well, there have been a few zone teams that have won championships. Syracuse and UNLV come to mind.

K has flirted (or more than flirted) with zone for several seasons now, but the previous pattern was to work in the zone when the man-to-man was horrible and then gradually work back to the m2m. The 2015 team is the best example of that, as they played mostly m2m during the final stretch.

An interesting question is whether K (given a similar group of one-and-done freshmen) will actually just go full zone from the beginning of a season. One could argue that this Duke team would have been better if they'd just committed to and practiced the zone from day 1.

Well, I think the big difference this season is just that this team consistently played the zone well almost all season. (Which wasn't happenstance but indeed predicted and planned for. Coach K talked up the zone in the preseason, and he played a full game of zone as early as the 3rd game of the season, showing that he was serious about this team's zone potential). It was a natural move to switch over to zone permanently because we had played it so well this season.

However, we've played a decent amount of zone since 2015, and I think people are forgetting the times when we've NOT played it well and it wasn't better than m2m. Some prominent examples to follow. When Oregon spanked us in the 2016 tourney, we played close to a full game of zone. When South Carolina spanked us in the second half of the 2017 tourney game, we played a lot of zone. In one of the games that Coach K missed due to illness, the opponent (I think GaTech) was spanking our zone until Coach Capel switched us to man-to-man, which worked beautifully. These aren't the only examples, either, just ones that are easy to remember.

I also don't buy (and never have, really) the underlying premise that OADs can't play defense. It's getting to be an awkwardly specific theory. I believe the working theory has now morphed into: "OADs can't play good defense, UNLESS it is zone defense, OR the OADs are really, really mature like in 2015, OR the head coach is John Calipari." Yeah, I'm not on board. I think if Coach K can't get healthy size, length, and athleticism to play good defense, it's not an OAD problem. It's a Coach K problem. But, thankfully, we DO have healthy (so far, knock on wood) size, length, and athleticism this season, and Coach K has them playing great defense right now.

Continuing along this trajectory, this season will go down as one of Coach K's finest accomplishments. I mean, can you believe it? The man constructed a great zone defense to go along with his typically great offense in order to become a dominant team at the end of the season.

flyingdutchdevil
02-26-2018, 04:12 PM
Well, I think the big difference this season is just that this team consistently played the zone well almost all season. (Which wasn't happenstance but indeed predicted and planned for. Coach K talked up the zone in the preseason, and he played a full game of zone as early as the 3rd game of the season, showing that he was serious about this team's zone potential). It was a natural move to switch over to zone permanently because we had played it so well this season.

However, we've played a decent amount of zone since 2015, and I think people are forgetting the times when we've NOT played it well and it wasn't better than m2m. Some prominent examples to follow. When Oregon spanked us in the 2016 tourney, we played close to a full game of zone. When South Carolina spanked us in the second half of the 2017 tourney game, we played a lot of zone. In one of the games that Coach K missed due to illness, the opponent (I think GaTech) was spanking our zone until Coach Capel switched us to man-to-man, which worked beautifully. These aren't the only examples, either, just ones that are easy to remember.

I also don't buy (and never have, really) the underlying premise that OADs can't play defense. It's getting to be an awkwardly specific theory. I believe the working theory has now morphed into: "OADs can't play good defense, UNLESS it is zone defense, OR the OADs are really, really mature like in 2015, OR the head coach is John Calipari." Yeah, I'm not on board. I think if Coach K can't get healthy size, length, and athleticism to play good defense, it's not an OAD problem. It's a Coach K problem. But, thankfully, we DO have healthy (so far, knock on wood) size, length, and athleticism this season, and Coach K has them playing great defense right now.

Continuing along this trajectory, this season will go down as one of Coach K's finest accomplishments. I mean, can you believe it? The man constructed a great zone defense to go along with his typically great offense in order to become a dominant team at the end of the season.

Given that we were pre-season #1 and have a legendary coach, yeah, it's pretty easy to believe.

We are the most talented team in the country. That hasn't changed since the beginning of the season. UVa is a much, much more surprising story this year than Duke becoming elite defensively (and offensively. But I think most of us knew Duke was going to be elite offensively).

El_Diablo
02-26-2018, 04:25 PM
relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1138/

This one works too: https://xkcd.com/904/

Troublemaker
02-26-2018, 04:43 PM
Given that we were pre-season #1 and have a legendary coach, yeah, it's pretty easy to believe.

We are the most talented team in the country. That hasn't changed since the beginning of the season. UVa is a much, much more surprising story this year than Duke becoming elite defensively (and offensively. But I think most of us knew Duke was going to be elite offensively).

Well, obviously I was referring to the construction of a great zone defense as the surprise. Coach K is really showing off his versatility at this point (and also, again, how taking on the role of USA head coach has helped him and Duke, because without all those years learning the zone from Boeheim, we might be in a spot of trouble this season).

Also, as far as preseason polls go, how's that working out for preseason tri-favorite Arizona? (Who was it that predicted they would disappoint? Great job!) And we've also performed better than the other preseason tri-favorite MSU, although the edge there is smaller. If you go back through historical preseason polls, I think you'll find that most of the time, it's a bit of an accomplishment for top 5 teams to live up to expectations. (Because if you don't have much room to go up, your most likely direction is down). Incidentally, in the only "poll" that seems to matter around here, Duke was preseason #6 (https://web.archive.org/web/20171109105458/https://kenpom.com/).

UVA's been a bigger surprise? So what? I'm not arguing that Coach K should be NCOY. Just saying that m2m devotee Coach K constructing a great zone defense is a pretty remarkable accomplishment at age 71. At current trajectory, this is going to go down as one of his finest seasons.

simplyluvin
02-26-2018, 04:59 PM
This will be a good test of our new defensive tenacity. Key will be limiting open 3s and grabbing the long rebounds. This feels like a game that could easily go either way, as many posters have suggested. One could argue we could have won at GT, UVA, at Cheats, and at StJ this year with improved perimeter D (not sure about NCSt), and we very easily could have lost against Texas, Florida, and FSU had it not been for some late offensive surges. Today kinda feels like that type of game.

flyingdutchdevil
02-26-2018, 05:09 PM
Well, obviously I was referring to the construction of a great zone defense as the surprise. Coach K is really showing off his versatility at this point (and also, again, how taking on the role of USA head coach has helped him and Duke, because without all those years learning the zone from Boeheim, we might be in a spot of trouble this season).

Also, as far as preseason polls go, how's that working out for preseason tri-favorite Arizona? (Who was it that predicted they would disappoint? Great job!) And we've also performed better than the other preseason tri-favorite MSU, although the edge there is smaller. If you go back through historical preseason polls, I think you'll find that most of the time, it's a bit of an accomplishment for top 5 teams to live up to expectations. (Because if you don't have much room to go up, your most likely direction is down). Incidentally, in the only "poll" that seems to matter around here, Duke was preseason #6 (https://web.archive.org/web/20171109105458/https://kenpom.com/).

UVA's been a bigger surprise? So what? I'm not arguing that Coach K should be NCOY. Just saying that m2m devotee Coach K constructing a great zone defense is a pretty remarkable accomplishment at age 71. At current trajectory, this is going to go down as one of his finest seasons.

MSU is pretty damn good, having won 12 straight. They are higher in the weekly polls than us. I wouldn’t say their ‘edge is smaller’ as if MSU is barely a top 10 team given Arizona’s struggles. That’s like saying Germany is better than Belgium and Luxembourg in soccer, but the edge is smaller with Belgium. Germany and Belgium are both top 10 teams! (Had to get the WC reference in there. The greatest tournament is nearly upon us).

I don’t think this is one of Coach K’s greatest coaching stories because of the insane talent he has. It’s unfair, but with great talent, you can’t really exceed expectations as a coach. It’s like with Kerr: he’s expected to win and anything else would be a disappointment.

To me, I always think of 2010 as a great coaching job. Sure - there was a ton of McAA talent, but that team didn’t have much NBA talent on the surface.

Also, aren’t you jumping to conclusions a little quickly after a great 5 games? It we win the next 5 convincingly, I think it’s a good argument to make.

Troublemaker
02-26-2018, 05:26 PM
MSU is pretty damn good, having won 12 straight. They are higher in the weekly polls than us. I wouldn’t say their ‘edge is smaller’ as if MSU is barely a top 10 team given Arizona’s struggles. That’s like saying Germany is better than Belgium and Luxembourg in soccer, but the edge is smaller with Belgium. Germany and Belgium are both top 10 teams! (Had to get the WC reference in there. The greatest tournament is nearly upon us).

Head to head win, and we're higher in kenpom than MSU. I'll stick with "small edge."



I don’t think this is one of Coach K’s greatest coaching stories because of the insane talent he has. It’s unfair, but with great talent, you can’t really exceed expectations as a coach. It’s like with Kerr: he’s expected to win and anything else would be a disappointment.

I would agree with you if these guys were seniors. Heck, I would agree with you even if they were sophomores. But I do think it is a special story to get such a freshman-laden team to be great on both sides of the ball, but especially because he's doing it with zone defense.

I mean, my viewpoint IS going to win out. You can continue to disagree, but it'll be moot. I guarantee you that Duke-haters / K-haters are going to be sickened by all the "old dog has learned new tricks" type features and articles that will be shown and written about Coach K in March. I mean, this "Duke is playing great zone defense" story is JUST starting to get notice right now. It's not even close to hitting peak. At peak, even I may be disgusted by all the media coverage it will receive.



Also, aren’t you jumping to conclusions a little quickly after a great 5 games? It we win the next 5 convincingly, I think it’s a good argument to make.

I do continue to say "at current trajectory."

MChambers
02-26-2018, 06:05 PM
Head to head win, and we're higher in kenpom than MSU. I'll stick with "small edge."
And higher in RPI (a lot higher), Sagarin, and T-Rank. It will interesting to see what the selection committee does with MSU, given the relatively weak RPI.

WVDUKEFAN
02-26-2018, 06:11 PM
I think it's about chemistry at this point. We didn't look nearly as convincing in the game against Syracuse as we did the previous 4 games. Yes, our 3 ball was off, but so was theirs. There is still time to find the best rotation, but the clock is ticking at this point.

El_Diablo
02-26-2018, 06:17 PM
To me, I always think of 2010 as a great coaching job. Sure - there was a ton of McAA talent, but that team didn’t have much NBA talent on the surface.

I agree that 2010 was a great coaching job, but that team had seven future NBA players on it, not including Scheyer and Zoubek (whose NBA prospects were derailed by injuries) or Seth Curry (redshirt transfer that year).

uh_no
02-26-2018, 06:27 PM
I agree that 2010 was a great coaching job, but that team had seven future NBA players on it, not including Scheyer and Zoubek (whose NBA prospects were derailed by injuries) or Seth Curry (redshirt transfer that year).

to be fair, the plumlees and kelly were nowhere near the players they were when they left duke, and were largely insignificant contributors during the tournament.

You might say, they were alarmingly un-NBA-ish.