PDA

View Full Version : Yahoo Sports Article About NCAA Violations



Pages : [1] 2 3

beach rev
02-23-2018, 06:32 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html

left_hook_lacey
02-23-2018, 06:48 AM
Wendell Carter named specifically.

NashvilleDevil
02-23-2018, 06:49 AM
They say Wendell but do not say what happened. His mom has lunch with the guy? If so then that some garbage that they would include him with players who received large amounts of money.

UrinalCake
02-23-2018, 06:58 AM
Carter is among those listed who “met with or had a meal with” an agent. Not among the many others who are listed as having received money. I’m not worried (yet).

left_hook_lacey
02-23-2018, 07:06 AM
Yeah, just like Tony Bradley, it says they only had a meeting with him. Just depends on who paid for the meal.

tbyers11
02-23-2018, 07:06 AM
Carter is among those listed who “met with or had a meal with” an agent. Not among the many others who are listed as having received money. I’m not worried (yet).

Agree on the yet. Meeting with an agent is not illegal. Having a meal with an agent is not even illegal if you pay for yourself. That list looks like a lot of nothing to see here that Yahoo included because it brings Duke, UNC, UVA, ND, and other big schools into the mix.

Now if I'm NCST, UK, or Mich St I'm a bit more worried. Those payments to Dennis Smith, Bam Adebayo (weren't they on the same AAU team and didn't NCST fans think they had a great shot at Bam), and Miles Bridges appear to have a little more "there" there.

left_hook_lacey
02-23-2018, 07:07 AM
Dennis Smith jr got $73k. Hmmmmmm, lower than I thought.

TruBlu
02-23-2018, 07:24 AM
Shady characters have been known to “cook the books”. Are these spreadsheets accurate, or a bunch of BS to cover someone’s lavish lifestyle.

As far as expense reports, I have personally seen people “on the pad” take out their spouse or go on a trip with a personal relation and call them “Doctor John Doe”.

As a District Service Manager of a large international medical equipment corporation, I was called on the carpet by accounting for thousands of dollars in expense advances which I did not account for on my expense report. After an investigation, it was discovered that the District Sales Manager was telling the office Secretary that I was stuck out of town and in need of an advance. He would then authorize an expense advance check in my name, have her go to a bank with my forged name to get cash, which he was supposedly going to deliver to me. He never got the cash to me. Needless to say, they were both fired, and had to repay the company the money to keep from being charged legally.

Be very careful of taking spreadsheets and expense reports as gospel. Crooks gonna be crooks.

Dukehky
02-23-2018, 07:28 AM
THE EMPIRE IS FALLING!!! THEY FINALLY GOT DUKE. OH NO!!!!!


Yahoo can go kick rocks. Calling out Wendell specifically, just because everyone wants to see Duke on this list. Nonsense.

Brice Johnson is also on this list. Could have been after he graduated though.

luburch
02-23-2018, 07:29 AM
To break it down a little bit

Players or families that received money:
Dennis Smith Jr. - NC State
Isaiah Whitehead - Seton Hall
Tim Quarterman - LSU
Diamond Stone - Maryland
Dam Adebayo - Kentucky
Markelle Fultz - Washington
Bennie Boatwright - USC
Chimezie Metu - USC
Eric Davis - Texas
Brian Bowen - Louisville/South Carolina
Kyle Kuzma - Utah
PJ Dozier - South Carolina
Edmond Sumner - Xavier
Fred VanVleet - Wichita State
Jaron Blossomgame - Clemson
Josh Jackson - Kansas
Miles Bridges - Michigan State

Players that simply met with Dawkins or had meals with him:
Collin Sexton - Alabama
Wendell Carter - Duke
Kevin Knox - Kentucky
North Carlina - Tony Bradley
Creighton - Justin Patton
Prince Ibeh - Texas
Demetrius Jackson - Notre Dame
Wade Baldwin - Vanderbilt
Malcom Brogdon - Virginia
Monte Morris - Iowa State

Coaches mentioned:
"Villanova coaches"
Tom Izzo

tbyers11
02-23-2018, 07:31 AM
To break it down a little bit

Players or families that received money:
Dennis Smith Jr. - NC State
Isaiah Whitehead - Seton Hall
Tim Quarterman - LSU
Diamond Stone - Maryland
Dam Adebayo - Kentucky
Markelle Fultz - Washington
Bennie Boatwright - USC
Chimezie Metu - USC
Eric Davis - Texas
Brian Bowen - Louisville/South Carolina
Kyle Kuzma - Utah
PJ Dozier - South Carolina
Edmond Sumner - Xavier
Fred VanVleet - Wichita State
Jaron Blossomgame - Clemson
Josh Jackson - Kansas
Miles Bridges - Michigan State

Players that simply met with Dawkins or had meals with him:
Collin Sexton - Alabama
Wendell Carter - Duke
Kevin Knox - Kentucky
North Carlina - Tony Bradley
Creighton - Justin Patton
Prince Ibeh - Texas
Demetrius Jackson - Notre Dame
Wade Baldwin - Vanderbilt
Malcom Brogdon - Virginia
Monte Morris - Iowa State
Brice Johnson - UNC

Coaches mentioned:
"Villanova coaches"
Tom Izzo

Added Brice to the dinner list. Wonder if he got to pick Carraba's for dinner or if Dawkins chose the restaurant

terrih
02-23-2018, 07:34 AM
Is there a chance WC will be held out of games now? Seems like a possibility.

fuse
02-23-2018, 07:37 AM
The allegation is a $70 meal.
Under $200 is not an eligibility issue if repayed, is the NCAA bylaw that is getting sprayed all over social media.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-23-2018, 07:39 AM
Is there a chance WC will be held out of games now? Seems like a possibility.
Interesting question. I would imagine the staff has had a careful talk with him to understand the situation. My guess is if we see him playing that K and staff are confident there’s nothing there.

Dukehky
02-23-2018, 07:44 AM
Interesting question. I would imagine the staff has had a careful talk with him to understand the situation. My guess is if we see him playing that K and staff are confident there’s nothing there.

My guess is that they already knew about it.

Duke79UNLV77
02-23-2018, 07:52 AM
Dennis Smith jr got $73k. Hmmmmmm, lower than I thought.

And most of the payments to other players are far less than that! This "bombshell" is a bit underwhelming, so far. If this is all Yahoo got after reviewing pages and pages of documents (someone is in contempt of a Court Protective Order), then I'm a bit relieved -- a meal that the Carter family can repay, no reason to suspect that the coaches knew, and numerous programs are in the same boat at that level. I would guess these payments were more about the agent trying to get a future client than directing a kid to a particular school. I mean, did they really want Kuzma to go to Utah for marketing exposure? I assume there is more to come, but so far, it could be a lot worse.

UrinalCake
02-23-2018, 08:00 AM
I’m actually somewhat relieved that the extent to which Duke players are involved wasn’t worse. Looking at the list, these are mostly non OAD players who took money, with a few exceptions. That’s kind of what I expected. The elite players have less motivation to take money, they have more at stake and know they will be millionaires soon anyways.

Brogdon is an interesting name to see. In a recent poll, coaches were asked who is most likely to be running a clean program. Bennett was the top pick, followed by guys like Matt Painter and Mike Brey. Not saying Bennett is dirty, just that nobody is completely safe from the reach of agents.

Diamond Stone is probably the least surprising name on that list.

DavidBenAkiva
02-23-2018, 08:23 AM
Carter is among those listed who “met with or had a meal with” an agent. Not among the many others who are listed as having received money. I’m not worried (yet).

It's really pathetic that his is among the first names listed, along with Miles Bridges and Colin Sexton of Alabama. Maybe there's more to come out, but that's like listing a kid who got caught for possession of alcohol at a campus party while the frat brothers were dropping ruffies into cups of underclass girls. "Duke star caught at campus kegger!" Meanwhile, the real crime is buried under a couple of paragraphs. Duke is the first school listed in the article. Duke sells.

DavidBenAkiva
02-23-2018, 08:25 AM
I’m actually somewhat relieved that the extent to which Duke players are involved wasn’t worse. Looking at the list, these are mostly non OAD players who took money, with a few exceptions. That’s kind of what I expected. The elite players have less motivation to take money, they have more at stake and know they will be millionaires soon anyways.

Brogdon is an interesting name to see. In a recent poll, coaches were asked who is most likely to be running a clean program. Bennett was the top pick, followed by guys like Matt Painter and Mike Brey. Not saying Bennett is dirty, just that nobody is completely safe from the reach of agents.

Diamond Stone is probably the least surprising name on that list.

Tom Izzo looks particularly ungood in this article, which must be shocking to many.

CajunDevil
02-23-2018, 08:34 AM
The entire cost of the meal was $106.36 on 2/22/16 at Longhorn with Dawkins (an agent rep who was arrested by FBI) and Ms. Carter. Anything under $200 won't affect eligibility per NCAA rule 16.01.1.1 so long as the benefit is repaid to a charity of the student-athlete's choice. Assuming the amount of the benefit is repaid to a charity before Duke's next game, this issue won't affect Wendell's eligibility.


Nothing to see here with respect to Duke. Yahoo Sports simply used Duke to get clicks...

G man
02-23-2018, 08:36 AM
Lame article. Wasn't even worth the hype. It has some info, but nothing what we were lead to believe.

dukelifer
02-23-2018, 08:38 AM
Is there a chance WC will be held out of games now? Seems like a possibility.

Duke may need to give up the 2018 National Championship ;)

rdearth15
02-23-2018, 08:40 AM
The entire cost of the meal was $106.36 on 2/22/16 at Longhorn with Dawkins (an agent rep who was arrested by FBI) and Ms. Carter. Anything under $200 won't affect eligibility per NCAA rule 16.01.1.1 so long as the benefit is repaid to a charity of the student-athlete's choice. Assuming the amount of the benefit is repaid to a charity before Duke's next game, this issue won't affect Wendell's eligibility.


Nothing to see here with respect to Duke. Yahoo Sports simply used Duke to get clicks...



Where did you see the dollar amount? I have yet to see this on any report.

jhmoss1812
02-23-2018, 08:40 AM
I’m actually somewhat relieved that the extent to which Duke players are involved wasn’t worse. Looking at the list, these are mostly non OAD players who took money, with a few exceptions. That’s kind of what I expected. The elite players have less motivation to take money, they have more at stake and know they will be millionaires soon anyways.

Brogdon is an interesting name to see. In a recent poll, coaches were asked who is most likely to be running a clean program. Bennett was the top pick, followed by guys like Matt Painter and Mike Brey. Not saying Bennett is dirty, just that nobody is completely safe from the reach of agents.

Diamond Stone is probably the least surprising name on that list.

First of all, it was Brogdon's mom who had dinner with the agent. The ledger readers “3/14/2016 Ritz Carlton Malcolm Brogdon’s Mom $64.16”

Brogdon's father, Mitchell, is a lawyer and mediator. Jann Adams, Brogdon's mother, is the former chair of Morehouse College's Psychology Department. She is now the associate dean of science and math.

They definitely seem strapped for $64.

DarkstarWahoo
02-23-2018, 08:50 AM
First of all, it was Brogdon's mom who had dinner with the agent. The ledger readers “3/14/2016 Ritz Carlton Malcolm Brogdon’s Mom $64.16”

Brogdon's father, Mitchell, is a lawyer and mediator. Jann Adams, Brogdon's mother, is the former chair of Morehouse College's Psychology Department. She is now the associate dean of science and math.

They definitely seem strapped for $64.

From what I understand, the dinner took place between the 2016 ACC and NCAA tournaments. I want to know if this lets us vacate the Syracuse loss in the Elite 8.

tbyers11
02-23-2018, 08:54 AM
First of all, it was Brogdon's mom who had dinner with the agent. The ledger readers “3/14/2016 Ritz Carlton Malcolm Brogdon’s Mom $64.16”

Brogdon's father, Mitchell, is a lawyer and mediator. Jann Adams, Brogdon's mother, is the former chair of Morehouse College's Psychology Department. She is now the associate dean of science and math.

They definitely seem strapped for $64.

Yeah, the Brogdon mom dinner as much of a "nothing to see here" as the Wendell Carter mom dinner. Although props to Brogdon's mom as I would much rather go to the Ritz-Carlton than Longhorn


From what I understand, the dinner took place between the 2016 ACC and NCAA tournaments. I want to know if this lets us vacate the Syracuse loss in the Elite 8.

When I saw the date of the Brogdon dinner I was thinking of making a joke like this but decided not to inflame our friendly Wahoo visitors. Thank you for making fun of yourself :D

tbyers11
02-23-2018, 08:55 AM
Where did you see the dollar amount? I have yet to see this on any report.

The pictures in the article have spreadsheets with detailed info

flyingdutchdevil
02-23-2018, 08:58 AM
IMO, it's just smart planning on behalf of the players. But please pay the bill.

Also, this isn't anything new to Duke. Cameron Reddish was filmed leaving lunch with Lebron and his agent.

DangerDevil
02-23-2018, 08:58 AM
It's really pathetic that his is among the first names listed, along with Miles Bridges and Colin Sexton of Alabama. Maybe there's more to come out, but that's like listing a kid who got caught for possession of alcohol at a campus party while the frat brothers were dropping ruffies into cups of underclass girls. "Duke star caught at campus kegger!" Meanwhile, the real crime is buried under a couple of paragraphs. Duke is the first school listed in the article. Duke sells.

That was my reaction as well and doesn’t surprise me that this is what passes for mainstream sports journalism.

Also not surprisingly I think they just teased the article as the “tip of the iceberg” on Golic and Wingo, I would be willing to bet a pie that Wendell and Duke get mentioned in their discussion of the topic.

Tripping William
02-23-2018, 08:59 AM
Nothingburger or not (at least as to Duke), this headline -- in all its misleading glory -- appears to be gaining a bunch of traction on these Interweb thingies this morning. *sigh*

rdearth15
02-23-2018, 09:07 AM
The pictures in the article have spreadsheets with detailed info


Saw that, but can't get the image large enough to read clearly on my work computer. Glad some out there can to keep us "others" in the loop.

scottdude8
02-23-2018, 09:08 AM
OK, so instead of adding to the noise I've got a few "summary" questions I hope can clarify the situation as we understand it and help put things in perspective (and help me not stress out about this, haha).

1) Let's consider the "best case scenario" as we understand it, and say Wendell and his family simply met with an agent. Is simply speaking to an agent explicitly against NCAA rules? If so, what would the punishment be?

2) Let's consider a more "worst case scenario" as we understand it, and say Wendell and his family did have a dinner paid for by an agent. People have speculated that this would be just a slap-on-the-wrist punishment. Can anyone clarify this speculation and potentially cite some examples?

3) What is the potential that Wendell could be suspended for a period to sort of "head off" any punishment that could come from the NCAA?

4) What is the potential that Wendell could be ruled ineligible?

5) On a scale of 1-10, how worried do I need to be? Right now I get the impression I should be at like a 3 or 4, although it feels like a 8 or 9 at the moment, haha.

devildeac
02-23-2018, 09:13 AM
From what I understand, the dinner took place between the 2016 ACC and NCAA tournaments. I want to know if this lets us vacate the Syracuse loss in the Elite 8.

Only if we are allowed to vacate the 2013 loss to Stripper U. :p

CameronBornAndBred
02-23-2018, 09:15 AM
I'm trying to make sense of the timeline on those images, because one of the players listed is Brendan Haywood and the $ amount of 351.17. He hasn't played college ball since 2001.

Troublemaker
02-23-2018, 09:16 AM
For those wondering about where the number came from, see the image below.

Also, technically, it's possible that Wendell's mom paid for her own meal, and Dawkins somehow rang up $106.36 for HIS own meal. (Longhorn's is not a fancy steak restaurant, though, so he would've had to been really pounding the alcohol.) It's also technically possible that the expense reports are faked, as someone mentioned upthread. Regardless, it seems like the Carter family would just need to re-pay the amount for there to be no issue.

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/3jAGowFBJrBROG8WJlQaug--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTIwMDtoPTY1NA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/6e580e7eaca201da7fda4c4dd32738ae

ChillinDuke
02-23-2018, 09:17 AM
OK, so instead of adding to the noise I've got a few "summary" questions I hope can clarify the situation as we understand it and help put things in perspective (and help me not stress out about this, haha).

1) Let's consider the "best case scenario" as we understand it, and say Wendell and his family simply met with an agent. Is simply speaking to an agent explicitly against NCAA rules? If so, what would the punishment be?

2) Let's consider a more "worst case scenario" as we understand it, and say Wendell and his family did have a dinner paid for by an agent. People have speculated that this would be just a slap-on-the-wrist punishment. Can anyone clarify this speculation and potentially cite some examples?

3) What is the potential that Wendell could be suspended for a period to sort of "head off" any punishment that could come from the NCAA?

4) What is the potential that Wendell could be ruled ineligible?

5) On a scale of 1-10, how worried do I need to be? Right now I get the impression I should be at like a 3 or 4, although it feels like a 8 or 9 at the moment, haha.

Scottdude, I think all of these answers have been implied upthread. I have done no additional research but believe the answers are...

1) No, speaking to an agent is explicitly within the rules. Presumably, the NCAA rules cannot bar people from living their lives, which includes conducting meetings. What is not permitted are benefits not available to everyone. Payment for a meal would be an example of this - although objectively a pretty not-meaningful example.

2) Upthread, the response was any meal sub-$200 is within NCAA limits so long as it is paid for by the family. If not paid for by the family, but still sub-$200, repayment of the amount to a charity of the student-athlete's choosing is an acceptable resolution according to the NCAA. No further punishment.

3) Assuming the only issue here is a sub-$200 Longhorn meal, the potential is basically zero. I can assure you the staff is either in the process of finding out more or already knows the full extent of the program's risk/exposure. Beyond this meal, the "potential" is limitless, really. But so is the potential for basically anything. So I stand by the assertion that a precautionary suspension is near zero probability.

4) Same logic as #3 above. Basically zero.

5) 3 seems high. I'm sort of at 1.5 or 2. YMMV. But I wouldn't get too crazed ATM.

- Chillin

bigperm13
02-23-2018, 09:19 AM
You should be a 1 since the meal at Longhorn was made available to all students, therefore not punishable.

scottdude8
02-23-2018, 09:20 AM
Scottdude, I think all of these answers have been implied upthread. I have done no additional research but believe the answers are...

1) No, speaking to an agent is explicitly within the rules. Presumably, the NCAA rules cannot bar people from living their lives, which includes conducting meetings. What is not permitted are benefits not available to everyone. Payment for a meal would be an example of this - although objectively a pretty not-meaningful example.

2) Upthread, the response was any meal sub-$200 is within NCAA limits so long as it is paid for by the family. If not paid for by the family, but still sub-$200, repayment of the amount to a charity of the student-athlete's choosing is an acceptable resolution according to the NCAA. No further punishment.

3) Assuming the only issue here is a sub-$200 Longhorn meal, the potential is basically zero. I can assure you the staff is either in the process of finding out more or already knows the full extent of the program's risk/exposure. Beyond this meal, the "potential" is limitless, really. But so is the potential for basically anything. So I stand by the assertion that a precautionary suspension is near zero probability.

4) Same logic as #3 above. Basically zero.

5) 3 seems high. I'm sort of at 1.5 or 2. YMMV. But I wouldn't get too crazed ATM.

- Chillin

Thanks Chillin! Definitely realize a lot of these things have been hinted at but I figured it would be useful to get things summarized and clarified. Any additional info as it develops will of course be appreciated :)

Troublemaker
02-23-2018, 09:20 AM
OK, so instead of adding to the noise I've got a few "summary" questions I hope can clarify the situation as we understand it and help put things in perspective (and help me not stress out about this, haha).

1) Let's consider the "best case scenario" as we understand it, and say Wendell and his family simply met with an agent. Is simply speaking to an agent explicitly against NCAA rules? If so, what would the punishment be?

2) Let's consider a more "worst case scenario" as we understand it, and say Wendell and his family did have a dinner paid for by an agent. People have speculated that this would be just a slap-on-the-wrist punishment. Can anyone clarify this speculation and potentially cite some examples?

3) What is the potential that Wendell could be suspended for a period to sort of "head off" any punishment that could come from the NCAA?

4) What is the potential that Wendell could be ruled ineligible?

5) On a scale of 1-10, how worried do I need to be? Right now I get the impression I should be at like a 3 or 4, although it feels like a 8 or 9 at the moment, haha.

If Wendell plays tomorrow, your worry should be at a 0. If he doesn't play, we'll re-evaluate then.

Tripping William
02-23-2018, 09:24 AM
If Wendell plays tomorrow, your worry should be at a 0. If he doesn't play, we'll re-evaluate then.

+1 on this assessment. It's what I told someone just this morning.

luburch
02-23-2018, 09:24 AM
You should be a 1 since the meal at Longhorn was made available to all students, therefore not punishable.

Does anyone know if the Carter's even showed up to Longhorn? Could have just been a paper-meal.

BigZ
02-23-2018, 09:25 AM
The NCAA states that a player isn't ineligible if the benefits are less than $200

AnotherNYCDukeFan
02-23-2018, 09:26 AM
For those wondering about where the number came from, see the image below.

Also, technically, it's possible that Wendell's mom paid for her own meal, and Dawkins somehow rang up $106.36 for HIS own meal. (Longhorn's is not a fancy steak restaurant, though, so he would've had to been really pounding the alcohol.) It's also technically possible that the expense reports are faked, as someone mentioned upthread. Regardless, it seems like the Carter family would just need to re-pay the amount for there to be no issue.

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/3jAGowFBJrBROG8WJlQaug--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTIwMDtoPTY1NA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/6e580e7eaca201da7fda4c4dd32738ae

Yes, this. As someone who works in a regulated industry, there's a big difference between " Dinner w/..." and "Dinner for...".

JasonEvans
02-23-2018, 09:28 AM
Much of this is former players. But, at least one current NCAA star seems to be in some real trouble... MSU's Miles Bridges. It looks like his mom got one payment of $400 and it seems to imply she may have gotten thousands more. That's a good bit more problematic than a lunch at Longhorn. Also, there are some references to Tom Izzo that would have me freaking out if it instead said Coach K.

-Jason "on the 1-10 scale of worry, as Scottdude alluded to upthread, if I was a MSU fan I might be at 11" Evans

Kfanarmy
02-23-2018, 09:35 AM
Yes, this. As someone who works in a regulated industry, there's a big difference between " Dinner w/..." and "Dinner for...".

exactly...can't tell if she ate lunch, they ate lunch, he had lunch, or what the case is. why is this even on the radar...a one-time $100 lunch for two, ridiculous! Most of the stuff on that ledger is useless without testimony to clarify. But hey, Yahoo got click bait out there for a lot of folks.

ingrjc1
02-23-2018, 09:39 AM
Does anyone know if the Carter's even showed up to Longhorn? Could have just been a paper-meal.

Holy crap that is funny. Needed that.

Chicken Little
02-23-2018, 09:42 AM
Longhorn's is not a fancy steak restaurant, though, so he would've had to been really pounding the alcohol.

Or that the agent had an assistant/intern/lackey with him to take notes or whatever. Not hard to drop $100 on two people, even at longhorn.

When are the internet detectives going to download a menu and figure out the combinations of items that could lead to this specific total?!? We're waiting!

hallcity
02-23-2018, 09:46 AM
Yes, this. As someone who works in a regulated industry, there's a big difference between " Dinner w/..." and "Dinner for...".

There's also something known as chiseling on your expense voucher. Even George Washington is said to have done this (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2902071-george-washington-s-expense-account). If Carter's family denies that they ever had a meal with this guy and there's no other evidence, what're you going to do if you're the NCAA?

chrishoke
02-23-2018, 09:56 AM
ESPN Front page headline
Report: NCAA teams, players ID'd in FBI probe
Players at basketball powers such as Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Michigan State and Kansas may have committed NCAA violations that were uncovered by an FBI investigation, according to Yahoo! Sports.

scottdude8
02-23-2018, 09:59 AM
-Jason "on the 1-10 scale of worry, as Scottdude alluded to upthread, if I was a MSU fan I might be at 11" Evans

Woohoo! Schadenfreude makes everything better (especially since, not surprisingly, Jon Beilein and Michigan are completely clean!) :)

HK Dukie
02-23-2018, 10:00 AM
Keep in mind the alleged meal for $106 was with at least 2 people, the agent and WC's mom. The "impermissible" benefit would then be just the portion of that $106 that was spent on her items, not the agent's. So ~$53, which again is well below the $200 threshold.

BigZ
02-23-2018, 10:00 AM
No way CBS let's the NCAA ban those teams from March

dukebluesincebirth
02-23-2018, 10:02 AM
This just feeds the “everybody does it” line from the trolls from over there.

As for Michigan State, they’ve got bigger problems than Bridges that came out a few weeks ago. It’s time for Tom to step aside.

PackMan97
02-23-2018, 10:06 AM
Agree on the yet. Meeting with an agent is not illegal. Having a meal with an agent is not even illegal if you pay for yourself. That list looks like a lot of nothing to see here that Yahoo included because it brings Duke, UNC, UVA, ND, and other big schools into the mix.

Now if I'm NCST, UK, or Mich St I'm a bit more worried. Those payments to Dennis Smith, Bam Adebayo (weren't they on the same AAU team and didn't NCST fans think they had a great shot at Bam), and Miles Bridges appear to have a little more "there" there.

I would say the fact we didn't land Bam Adebayo is probably a good thing. I'll be more worried if something pops up that ties the athlete to anyone at these schools. Otherwise it's simply a Corey Magette situation on a larger scale.

On a brighter note, State is about as "judgement proof" as you can get. Ok, we'll vacate all the games we won last year plus any championships.

DangerDevil
02-23-2018, 10:07 AM
Now we have made the ESPN scrolling banner,

“Breaking News, At least a dozen Div 1 programs identified as possibly breaking NCAA rules through recruiting violations as a result of FBI investagation, according to documents obtained by Yahoo Sports. Schools identified by Yahoo for possible violations include Duke, North Carolina, Texas, Kentucky, Michigan State, USC and Kansas. At least 25 players are linked to impermissible benefits, including Michigan State’s Miles Bridges, Alabama’s Collin Sexton, Duke’s Wendell’s Carter Jr., and last year’s No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz. Financial records of former NBA agent Andy Miller and his agency, ASM Sports, indicatencash advances and expenses paid for college prospects and their families.”

What a joke of reporting to fan the flames to grab a headline and a few more clicks.

ndkjr70
02-23-2018, 10:08 AM
I might be at 11" Evans

That's quite the nickname.

thedukelamere
02-23-2018, 10:09 AM
Or that the agent had an assistant/intern/lackey with him to take notes or whatever. Not hard to drop $100 on two people, even at longhorn.

When are the internet detectives going to download a menu and figure out the combinations of items that could lead to this specific total?!? We're waiting!

Seriously though, unless a copy of the receipt is obtained to see how the total bill was paid, there's still the possibility of her paying for her portion. I'd be willing to go prove, today, that a $107 lunch for one is possible at Longhorn if anyone wants to wire me the money. :cool:

ndkjr70
02-23-2018, 10:09 AM
Does anyone else feel dirty that the NCAA will likely be up in arms over a $70 dinner paid to a young man's momma when they signed an 8.8 billion dollar TV deal with CBS?

devildeac
02-23-2018, 10:09 AM
There's also something known as chiseling on your expense voucher. Even George Washington is said to have done this (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2902071-george-washington-s-expense-account). If Carter's family denies that they ever had a meal with this guy and there's no other evidence, what're you going to do if you're the NCAA?

Punish Cleveland State? :rolleyes:

BigZ
02-23-2018, 10:13 AM
Glad to see the FBI catching the real criminals

Kfanarmy
02-23-2018, 10:20 AM
Does anyone else feel dirty that the NCAA will likely be up in arms over a $70 dinner paid to a young man's momma when they signed an 8.8 billion dollar TV deal with CBS?

Increase the number of moms of students in the general population having lunch with this guy so we can say it is a permissible benefit?

El_Diablo
02-23-2018, 10:21 AM
Any details on Tony Bradley's meal? [Please be Per Se. Please be Per Se.]

elvis14
02-23-2018, 10:22 AM
Glad to see the FBI catching the real criminals

I think we have learned in recent times that it is possible for the FBI to work on more than one thing at a time comrades!

thedukelamere
02-23-2018, 10:30 AM
I think we have learned in recent times that it is possible for the FBI to work on more than one thing at a time comrades!

Unless one of those things is properly tracking down Youtubers who are dangers to society. :(

oakvillebluedevil
02-23-2018, 10:30 AM
Increase the number of moms of students in the general population having lunch with this guy so we can say it is a permissible benefit?

Somewhat tongue in cheek but this is an interesting point.

If the agent / school / booster makes a payment to a random non-athlete student in equal amounts isn't this all permissible?

Duke76
02-23-2018, 10:35 AM
Now we have made the ESPN scrolling banner,

“Breaking News, At least a dozen Div 1 programs identified as possibly breaking NCAA rules through recruiting violations as a result of FBI investagation, according to documents obtained by Yahoo Sports. Schools identified by Yahoo for possible violations include Duke, North Carolina, Texas, Kentucky, Michigan State, USC and Kansas. At least 25 players are linked to impermissible benefits, including Michigan State’s Miles Bridges, Alabama’s Collin Sexton, Duke’s Wendell’s Carter Jr., and last year’s No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz. Financial records of former NBA agent Andy Miller and his agency, ASM Sports, indicatencash advances and expenses paid for college prospects and their families.”

What a joke of reporting to fan the flames to grab a headline and a few more clicks.

and no mention of Kentucky, who are they kidding? give me a break

DaleDuke7
02-23-2018, 10:40 AM
Now we have made the ESPN scrolling banner,

“Breaking News, At least a dozen Div 1 programs identified as possibly breaking NCAA rules through recruiting violations as a result of FBI investagation, according to documents obtained by Yahoo Sports. Schools identified by Yahoo for possible violations include Duke, North Carolina, Texas, Kentucky, Michigan State, USC and Kansas. At least 25 players are linked to impermissible benefits, including Michigan State’s Miles Bridges, Alabama’s Collin Sexton, Duke’s Wendell’s Carter Jr., and last year’s No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz. Financial records of former NBA agent Andy Miller and his agency, ASM Sports, indicatencash advances and expenses paid for college prospects and their families.”

What a joke of reporting to fan the flames to grab a headline and a few more clicks.

I am so sick of today’s media. Sloppy reporting, misleading headlines, all in the name of clickbait. Look, I get it, these are real people that have real jobs and real families to put meals on the table. And in order for their respective media companies to continue to employ them, they have to have clicks. But are there any honest media outlets left? It seems to me that it would be a fairly good idea to market “honest, accurate, candid, and direct” reporting. I’m sure there are some honest reporters that would love to work for such a company. And I know for a fact there are many viewers like myself who would proudly give my “clicks” to those types of companies.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t know of any such media outlets that do large scale reporting. Feel free to enlighten me folks.

atoomer0881
02-23-2018, 10:41 AM
and no mention of Kentucky, who are they kidding? give me a break

I'm sorry Stephen A, Coach K's program could be in serious trouble because why? Because Wendell's mom may have had lunch with an agent? He's making it seem like Wendell was one of the players listed to who was paid $100,000. What a joke!

8114

uh_no
02-23-2018, 10:44 AM
Somewhat tongue in cheek but this is an interesting point.

If the agent / school / booster makes a payment to a random non-athlete student in equal amounts isn't this all permissible?

No. You need to create a "department of lunch studies" first.

ChillinDuke
02-23-2018, 10:45 AM
I am so sick of today’s media. Sloppy reporting, misleading headlines, all in the name of clickbait. Look, I get it, these are real people that have real jobs and real families to put meals on the table. And in order for their respective media companies to continue to employ them, they have to have clicks. But are there any honest media outlets left? It seems to me that it would be a fairly good idea to market “honest, accurate, candid, and direct” reporting. I’m sure there are some honest reporters that would love to work for such a company. And I know for a fact there are many viewers like myself who would proudly give my “clicks” to those types of companies.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t know of any such media outlets that do large scale reporting. Feel free to enlighten me folks.

I really, really agree. It's so sad. Across all genres and focuses.

I barely even keep tabs on news anymore because everyone has an agenda. It seems as if no one is ever just reporting facts anymore and letting others make their own conclusions. Instead, everyone reports conclusions and omits facts.

- Chillin

thedukelamere
02-23-2018, 10:46 AM
I'm sorry Stephen A

Stopped reading after this. Guy is literally the epitome of what's wrong in today's clickbait media scene.

BigZ
02-23-2018, 10:53 AM
I think we have learned in recent times that it is possible for the FBI to work on more than one thing at a time comrades!

Impossible *

scottdude8
02-23-2018, 10:55 AM
When I woke up this morning and saw the news I was anxious/angry about the potential violations. Now after learning more and seeing the way things are playing out on ESPN and elsewhere, I'm anxious/angry about the crappy way this is getting covered.

The phrase "false equivalencies" comes to mind here (it's something that has played out a lot in the media in all forms, **cough cough** politics **cough cough**)... in an effort to seem unbiased (at best) or drive viewership (at worst) the news seems to be equating a dinner with a 6 figure payment while refusing to include the details differentiating the two. The world isn't binary, yet lately it seems that every issue is divided into two opposing camps by the news even though there are tons of important shades of gray in between. This is seemingly one of those issues. It's infuriating.

MrPoon
02-23-2018, 10:55 AM
I understand the frustration and outrage about how this is being reported, but no one should be surprised.
Duke’s reputation is significantly better than just about any school (deservedly) and any hint of impropriety is bigger news. News about Pitino or Cal, its news but has a lot less punch. It’s like the scene in Casablanca “I’m shocked, shocked to find gambling here.” “Your winnings sir.”

To me, I welcome it. This comes with a culture of the highest standards.

Plus, anyone surprised by a foolish comment by Stephen Smith (the forced use of the middle initial is symptomatic), then the problem is on you. He is occasionally knowlegeable about NY hoops (maybe its just by accident) and about how to use the shift-F7 button on MS word. That is it.

After all the great, high profile players who have gone to Durham the last five to ten years and the big scandal about Duke’s players, their parents or the program is one dinner at Longhorns?! A dinner that, from the title on the report and cost, means Wendel probably wasn’t even there?! Please. ESPN and going to have to work really really hard to make this story last more than about 15 mins and keep it about Duke.

Next play.

AGDukesky
02-23-2018, 10:57 AM
Kudos to CBS Sports for a much more even-handed report on the story. Sorry I’m in my phone at work and can’t provide the link. It lists all schools named but specifically says the dollar amounts vary greatly and impact to schools has a potentially wide range.

JetpackJesus
02-23-2018, 10:57 AM
I think this has already come up, but we have no way of knowing whether Wendell's mom paid her share of the bill, right? $106 seems like a large bill for one person at Longhorn, but, she could have paid cash and he could've put the entire meal on his credit card and taken the cash. Maybe he wanted the points/miles? Maybe she had cash and he didn't (I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me--I never have the cash--when splitting a check)? Maybe he--an alleged criminal--wanted to write-off/expense $106 instead of whatever he actually paid?

We also do not know how many people were present, right? Maybe this was agent+assistant meeting Mrs. Carter, and the agent and assistant spent $106 on their share of the meal with Mrs. Carter paying her portion?

That's an awful lot of question marks up there. Maybe the journalists should work on getting rid of those before reporting that schools/players may have committed NCAA violations. Or, failing that, at least report that there are many unanswered questions that make it impossible to reach any kind of conclusion at this point in time. Oh, right, the clicks ...

WVDUKEFAN
02-23-2018, 10:57 AM
and no mention of Kentucky, who are they kidding? give me a break

They mentioned Kevin Knox (amount unknown) and Bam Adebayo ($36,500).

MrPoon
02-23-2018, 11:02 AM
Also, while I would love to see the underbelly of college basketball cleaned up. I really struggle with the use of tax dollars on this one. Sure these guys are slime balls. And I know we can split hairs about why these amount to crimes but the cost benefit and risk to greater society... for what feels like something that will get bargened down to misdemeanors sure seems like headline grabbing more than law enforcement. I felt this way when Pitino was busted not because Duke is implicated (in a very minor way). I don’t want to get into broader cultural issues but dear Lord, there are plenty of things to work on, not sure this is one worth the millions they are spending (and by some reports mismanaging).

WVDUKEFAN
02-23-2018, 11:02 AM
i'm sorry stephen a, coach k's program could be in serious trouble because why? Because wendell's mom may have had lunch with an agent? He's making it seem like wendell was one of the players listed to who was paid $100,000. What a joke!

8114

fake news!!!!

Below is the link to CBS's article.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketballs-fbi-probe-gets-specific-with-players-teams-named-in-report/

DaleDuke7
02-23-2018, 11:03 AM
I really, really agree. It's so sad. Across all genres and focuses.

I barely even keep tabs on news anymore because everyone has an agenda. It seems as if no one is ever just reporting facts anymore and letting others make their own conclusions. Instead, everyone reports conclusions and omits facts.

- Chillin

I’m pretty much at the same point. I am curious though, has it always been this way? I’m a fairly young guy (24) so I don’t really remember a time where this hasn’t been the case, or at least, during childhood years, didn’t know that it was or wasn’t.

I don’t mean to assume your age or anything, it just seems that from reading the posts, I can infer that most people on the board have been around longer. So I welcome any answers from the more “seasoned” individuals on the board. 😄

PackMan97
02-23-2018, 11:04 AM
I'm struggling to understand the criminal nature of these actions.

Are they crimes simply because we must protect the amateur nature of college athletics and as such have passed laws in how agents interact with amateur athletics?

Would this be news is it were Google or Facebook giving money to a bright college kid?

BandAlum83
02-23-2018, 11:04 AM
Now we have made the ESPN scrolling banner,

“Breaking News, At least a dozen Div 1 programs identified as possibly breaking NCAA rules through recruiting violations as a result of FBI investagation, according to documents obtained by Yahoo Sports. Schools identified by Yahoo for possible violations include Duke, North Carolina, Texas, Kentucky, Michigan State, USC and Kansas. At least 25 players are linked to impermissible benefits, including Michigan State’s Miles Bridges, Alabama’s Collin Sexton, Duke’s Wendell’s Carter Jr., and last year’s No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz. Financial records of former NBA agent Andy Miller and his agency, ASM Sports, indicated cash advances and expenses paid for college prospects and their families.”

What a joke of reporting to fan the flames to grab a headline and a few more clicks.

This is really irresponsible journalism (not fake news). First of all, how can they claim that the Division 1 programs committed recruiting violations? An agent taking someone's Mom to lunch? Was he acting on behalf of the university? Was the University even aware of it? Was he attempting to get the student-athlete to attend a particular school? Was the meal before or after Wendell had already committed? How about all of the other meals? Same question.

Seems to me, more accurate might be "more than 2 dozen student-athletes may have put their NCAA eligibility at risk by having meals that may have been paid for by a sports agent."

I wonder if Wendell's Mom was even aware that having someone pay for a meal could jeopardize Wendell's eligibility. Are there NCAA rules classes that families of elite athletes have access to? Seriously, it is pretty standard sales process to take someone to lunch. Why is this even a rule?

Secondly, they conflate meals with alleged payments made to other athlete's or families. BIG DIFFERENCE! And some might actually be loans. This entire NCAA thing is a mess.

UrinalCake
02-23-2018, 11:05 AM
I think this has already come up, but we have no way of knowing whether Wendell's mom paid her share of the bill, right?

This isn’t even a receipt. It is an expense report. The agent (Dawkins) submitted an expense report requesting reimbursement for $106. There are a ton of variables in play. Was that for just his portion of the meal, or everybody’s? Did Carter’s mom pay for her portion separately? Did she reimburse him already for her portion? Did the meeting even happen? We don’t have proof of anything. All we know is that Dawkins submitted this expense report.

JetpackJesus
02-23-2018, 11:06 AM
And there's this gem of a statement from Emmert: "These allegations, if true, point to systematic failures that must be fixed and fixed now if we want college sports in America. Simply put, people who engage in this kind of behavior have no place in college sports. They are an affront to all those who play by the rules."

*cough*UNC*cough*

Then he says, "The Board and I are completely committed to making transformational changes to the game and ensuring all involved in college basketball do so with integrity."

Yeah ...
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/06/I-dont-believe-you.gif

FerryFor50
02-23-2018, 11:06 AM
Much of this is former players. But, at least one current NCAA star seems to be in some real trouble... MSU's Miles Bridges. It looks like his mom got one payment of $400 and it seems to imply she may have gotten thousands more. That's a good bit more problematic than a lunch at Longhorn. Also, there are some references to Tom Izzo that would have me freaking out if it instead said Coach K.

-Jason "on the 1-10 scale of worry, as Scottdude alluded to upthread, if I was a MSU fan I might be at 11" Evans

Makes a lot more sense now why Bridges was able to make the "tough decision" to stay at MSU another year.

FerryFor50
02-23-2018, 11:08 AM
This isn’t even a receipt. It is an expense report. The agent (Dawkins) submitted an expense report requesting reimbursement for $106. There are a ton of variables in play. Was that for just his portion of the meal, or everybody’s? Did Carter’s mom pay for her portion separately? Did she reimburse him already for her portion? Did the meeting even happen? We don’t have proof of anything. All we know is that Dawkins submitted this expense report.

We also don't know if the expense report was filed with any honesty. Seems like a guy who got busted by the FBI could have a high likelihood of falsifying his expense reports to take extra $$.

BandAlum83
02-23-2018, 11:09 AM
Does anyone else feel dirty that the NCAA will likely be up in arms over a $70 dinner paid to a young man's momma when they signed an 8.8 billion dollar TV deal with CBS? when the let UNC get away with paper classes for 23 years?

Does anyone else feel dirty that the NCAA will likely be up in arms over a $70 dinner paid to a young man's momma when they let UNC get away with paper classes for 23 years?

ranantha1
02-23-2018, 11:11 AM
I'm just glad to not see Lance Thomas' name anywhere on it...

BandAlum83
02-23-2018, 11:12 AM
Somewhat tongue in cheek but this is an interesting point.

If the agent / school / booster makes a payment to a random non-athlete student in equal amounts isn't this all permissible?

If a recruiter/headhunter buys a meal for a student, that's normal. But if a sports agent does it, it's impermissible? If a high net worth family has a child turning 21, thereby releasing a small fortune, can a financial planner take that individual to lunch in hopes of getting the business?

This is ridiculous!

Truth&Justise
02-23-2018, 11:12 AM
Also, while I would love to see the underbelly of college basketball cleaned up. I really struggle with the use of tax dollars on this one. Sure these guys are slime balls. And I know we can split hairs about why these amount to crimes but the cost benefit and risk to greater society... for what feels like something that will get bargened down to misdemeanors sure seems like headline grabbing more than law enforcement. I felt this way when Pitino was busted not because Duke is implicated (in a very minor way). I don’t want to get into broader cultural issues but dear Lord, there are plenty of things to work on, not sure this is one worth the millions they are spending (and by some reports mismanaging).

From what I can tell the Feds are not going after Wendell Carter's mom. Or even Dennis Smith, Jr. They're only going after the big time agents, who may have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars across a number of different players. It's a crime because it's unreported (tax fraud) and fraudulent to the Universities who receive federal money for scholarships. And my guess is they're trying to go UP the chain (to Adidas and Nike executives), not DOWN the chain. They're not in this to cleanup basketball, they're in this to nail senior folks for tax crimes.


Now, incidental to that, the investigation is uncovering information that the NCAA might also be interested in. In the course of detailing all the money being paid by the person actually indicted, it's revealed that someone like Wendell Carter's mom may have met with someone connected to the agent for lunch. The Feds don't really care about that. But it was part of their investigation that unearthed the information.

FerryFor50
02-23-2018, 11:15 AM
I really, really agree. It's so sad. Across all genres and focuses.

I barely even keep tabs on news anymore because everyone has an agenda. It seems as if no one is ever just reporting facts anymore and letting others make their own conclusions. Instead, everyone reports conclusions and omits facts.

- Chillin

Not really. The issue has multiple facets:

- Journalists have *always* tried to beat each other to the "scoop," even at the expense of facts. Think "Dewey Defeats Truman!"
- The instant access to news, 24x7 cable news shows, social media amplification and the idea that anyone who writes a blog can pretend to be a "journalist" these days adds to the cloud
- With the increased "free" access to news (free, if you ignore ads, paywalls, bloggers posing as "news" and having your data stolen/mined), traditional news orgs have had to adjust their mindset and now go with the flashy headline and ledes, then bury the facts later on in the article or they simply post a headline as "breaking news" with the promise of more details later but sans the caveats that the news may be subject to change as details leak in

If we had the internet and social media in the 1900s, we'd see the same issues. They were always there previously, but they just had less effect because they didn't reach so many eyeballs.

In this day and age, the onus is on *us*, the readers, to use critical thinking, fact checking, multiple sources and, at the very least, reading past the headlines and lede before we jump to conclusions.

WVDUKEFAN
02-23-2018, 11:15 AM
Something about burden of proof comes to mind.......

BandAlum83
02-23-2018, 11:16 AM
I understand the frustration and outrage about how this is being reported, but no one should be surprised.
Duke’s reputation is significantly better than just about any school (deservedly) and any hint of impropriety is bigger news. News about Pitino or Cal, its news but has a lot less punch. It’s like the scene in Casablanca “I’m shocked, shocked to find gambling here.” “Your winnings sir.”

To me, I welcome it. This comes with a culture of the highest standards.

Plus, anyone surprised by a foolish comment by Stephen Smith (the forced use of the middle initial is symptomatic), then the problem is on you. He is occasionally knowlegeable about NY hoops (maybe its just by accident) and about how to use the shift-F7 button on MS word. That is it.

After all the great, high profile players who have gone to Durham the last five to ten years and the big scandal about Duke’s players, their parents or the program is one dinner at Longhorns?! A dinner that, from the title on the report and cost, means Wendel probably wasn’t even there?! Please. ESPN and going to have to work really really hard to make this story last more than about 15 mins and keep it about Duke.

Next play.

I didn't know that shortcut. Thanks!!

FerryFor50
02-23-2018, 11:16 AM
If a recruiter/headhunter buys a meal for a student, that's normal. But if a sports agent does it, it's impermissible? If a high net worth family has a child turning 21, thereby releasing a small fortune, can a financial planner take that individual to lunch in hopes of getting the business?

This is ridiculous!

It's all fine and dandy if another student was at the same dinner as Wendell and his mom.

MrPoon
02-23-2018, 11:19 AM
From what I can tell the Feds are not going after Wendell Carter's mom. Or even Dennis Smith, Jr. They're only going after the big time agents, who may have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars across a number of different players. It's a crime because it's unreported (tax fraud) and fraudulent to the Universities who receive federal money for scholarships. And my guess is they're trying to go UP the chain (to Adidas and Nike executives), not DOWN the chain. They're not in this to cleanup basketball, they're in this to nail senior folks for tax crimes.


Now, incidental to that, the investigation is uncovering information that the NCAA might also be interested in. In the course of detailing all the money being paid by the person actually indicted, it's revealed that someone like Wendell Carter's mom may have met with someone connected to the agent for lunch. The Feds don't really care about that. But it was part of their investigation that unearthed the information.

Based on your name, I’ll defer to you.:) I just have a strong suspicion that this will amount to a lot of finger waving on TV, a few high profile kids kicked into probasketball sooner than they should and shoe companies changing how they recruit kids. They won’t stop. No one is going to jail. But maybe a lead prosecutor suddenly leaves the FBI and runs for office. Just my guess. Hope I’m wrong.

chris13
02-23-2018, 11:19 AM
I'm struggling to understand the criminal nature of these actions.

Are they crimes simply because we must protect the amateur nature of college athletics and as such have passed laws in how agents interact with amateur athletics?

Would this be news is it were Google or Facebook giving money to a bright college kid?

I agree 100 percent and that is a great analogy. The players should be given access to professional representation. I think it would honestly keep more kids in school.

My understanding and I am not a lawyer is that the coaches and agents are charged with allegedly committing fraud. The fraud is that they imperil the players amateur status, and thus rxpose the universities to liability.

JetpackJesus
02-23-2018, 11:20 AM
This isn’t even a receipt. It is an expense report. The agent (Dawkins) submitted an expense report requesting reimbursement for $106. There are a ton of variables in play. Was that for just his portion of the meal, or everybody’s? Did Carter’s mom pay for her portion separately? Did she reimburse him already for her portion? Did the meeting even happen? We don’t have proof of anything. All we know is that Dawkins submitted this expense report.

Oh, look, more unanswered questions!

Avvocato
02-23-2018, 11:26 AM
This report definitely could have been worse. Like others, I'm relieved that our only involvement is the lunch with Carter's mom. However, I think we should all still wait before we celebrate. We don't know what else the FBI has. There are reports of wire taps and other information. Who knows what's in that other information. Plus, we don't know what the FBI may have regarding its look into the shoe companies, which could be more troublesome. However, with that said, definitely relieved by how limited our involvement is in the first report, but there may be more bullets to dodge.

PackMan97
02-23-2018, 11:29 AM
Now, incidental to that, the investigation is uncovering information that the NCAA might also be interested in. In the course of detailing all the money being paid by the person actually indicted, it's revealed that someone like Wendell Carter's mom may have met with someone connected to the agent for lunch. The Feds don't really care about that. But it was part of their investigation that unearthed the information.

The good news for most universities is this is all agent related. Other than player eligibility issues for current athletes, it seems that these transactions were solely between players (or their families) and agents. They were inducements to sign professionally, not related to playing for a particular school.

The NCAA precedent has been set that as long as it happened before college, the college was not involved and had no knowledge and no reasonable way to know, they are in the clear. Don't even need to vacate the games that kid played in college.

uh_no
02-23-2018, 11:31 AM
I'm struggling to understand the criminal nature of these actions.

There are several

1) tax fraud. any money a player receives is taxable. I'm guessing none of it was reported.
2) fraud on the part of the player towards the school. If a player knowingly accepted money and then presented themselves as an amateur, they have defrauded the university, given their scholarship almost assuredly contains a stipulation that they are an amateur
3) fraud on the part of the agent or company. Given these dealings have all happened under the table, the agent and company is almost assuredly not reporting the transactions correctly. This could run afoul of IRS and SEC regulations.

ncexnyc
02-23-2018, 11:31 AM
Am I shocked at the outrage being directed towards Yahoo for their handling of the story? No.

Am I shocked at the responses I'm seeing on this forum? No.

Am I shocked at the big name schools that are on the list? No.

None of these things surprise me, because professional sports is HUGE money and big-time college basketball and football serve as a minor league system for the pros. With the insane money players earn these days, why is anyone surprised that these kids who are ID'd at such a young age have such a big target placed on their backs by people who are looking to grab a share of this potentially huge slice of pie.

CrazyNotCrazie
02-23-2018, 11:35 AM
My stream of consciousness thoughts:

- Similar to most of the rest of you, I am not particularly worried for Duke. This is a big nothing-burger. If the same meal had happened with an agent and a bench warmer from Montana State, no one would be talking about it. As has been noted, for all we know, he could have spent all of the money on himself while she nursed a free glass of water.
- We are in the fortunate position to be very selective about who we recruit. I would like to think that the first time we meet a recruit, we ask him if he or a family member has ever received money from an agent or booster. If the answer is yes, meeting is over, best of luck at another school. If the answer is no, please tell us if it happens in the future, at which point your recruitment will then be over.
- I know the NBA makes some effort to regulate agents, but I wish they went a lot further to keep sketchy characters away - it would really clean up the whole process. I know there are some who would argue that that is over-regulation but I think if the NBA had some basic common sense requirements for agents (like don't give tens of thousands of dollars to players who still have eligibility), it would help.
- Josh Jackson's mom is named Apples?

BandAlum83
02-23-2018, 11:36 AM
There are several

1) tax fraud. any money a player receives is taxable. I'm guessing none of it was reported.
2) fraud on the part of the player towards the school. If a player knowingly accepted money and then presented themselves as an amateur, they have defrauded the university, given their scholarship almost assuredly contains a stipulation that they are an amateur
3) fraud on the part of the agent or company. Given these dealings have all happened under the table, the agent and company is almost assuredly not reporting the transactions correctly. This could run afoul of IRS and SEC regulations.

If the player (families) actually signed promissory notes, there might not be tax implications, correct? Sure there are still eligibility implications, but maybe not tax fraud. The article did seem to indicate these were loans with deferred payment.

ChillinDuke
02-23-2018, 11:38 AM
I’m pretty much at the same point. I am curious though, has it always been this way? I’m a fairly young guy (24) so I don’t really remember a time where this hasn’t been the case, or at least, during childhood years, didn’t know that it was or wasn’t.

I don’t mean to assume your age or anything, it just seems that from reading the posts, I can infer that most people on the board have been around longer. So I welcome any answers from the more “seasoned” individuals on the board. 😄

I'm not much older at 31, but it sure seems like it's gotten much more polarizing and less facts-driven than, say, 10 years ago.

- Chillin

sandinmyshoes
02-23-2018, 11:38 AM
We also don't know if the expense report was filed with any honesty. Seems like a guy who got busted by the FBI could have a high likelihood of falsifying his expense reports to take extra $$.

The first response I've seen from the players or schools was from Tony Bradley's father who said his son never met with that agent. The family met at the agent's home office after Bradley declared for the draft and had pizza while the staff was introduced. Bradley eventually signed with a different agent.

The way the media is running with this, in tone and inference illustrate why the media's credibility is in free fall these days. You are hearing things like Duke and North Carolina implicated in cheating. Really? The agents might be implicated in the cheating. The players would be cheating. But unless the programs are involved with arranging meetings and money changing hands, they are NOT cheating and are in fact being cheated.

Much of this will be sorted out as we go on, but the sorting out never gets the attention that the media generated hysteria does.

ndkjr70
02-23-2018, 11:41 AM
A lot of people are referencing Rule 16 that exempts players from losing eligibility for issues under $100. That doesn't apply here. This has to do with AGENTS. It's going to be dealt with under Rule 12, which has NO minimum dollar amount.

Not to say the NCAA won't say "pay it to charity and you're okay", but it's definitely not a guarantee.

DukeFanSince1990
02-23-2018, 11:46 AM
Any details on Tony Bradley's meal? [Please be Per Se. Please be Per Se.]

Word on the street is that he ordered one to many appetizers and it pushed it over the $200 mark. So it looks like the down fall of the cheats will come down to bean dip and not academic fraud. That's word on the street.

Chicago 1995
02-23-2018, 11:47 AM
Does anyone else feel dirty that the NCAA will likely be up in arms over a $70 dinner paid to a young man's momma when they let UNC get away with paper classes for 23 years?

When the NCAA decided that it couldn't punish a decades long academic fraud scheme, I lost any concerns I might have about things like this -- even the payments to Smith, Adebayo and the like. Don't care.

uh_no
02-23-2018, 11:47 AM
If the player (families) actually signed promissory notes, there might not be tax implications, correct? Sure there are still eligibility implications, but maybe not tax fraud. The article did seem to indicate these were loans with deferred payment.

Well, I didn't stay at a holiday inn express last night, but that SOUNDS right....i'm guessing they didn't sign any promissory notes though....something something paper trails.

ChillinDuke
02-23-2018, 11:48 AM
In this day and age, the onus is on *us*, the readers, to use critical thinking, fact checking, multiple sources and, at the very least, reading past the headlines and lede before we jump to conclusions.

But that would require *us* (collectively) to act reasonably and have the capacity to think critically, fact check, and read past headlines. I'm not convinced that there is (a) enough critical mass of interested humans to do these things and (b) enough available mental capacity in an increasingly over-saturated media world to do these things.

The combination of (a) and (b) makes me believe that media outlets should be held to different standards in today's world. The goalposts have moved since Dewey defeated Truman! That was 70 years ago. TV was barely even a thing. Today, you get alerts sent to your wrist every minute. Historical standards seem to make little sense to me in this context.

But this is a conversation for another day and another medium.

- Chillin

El_Diablo
02-23-2018, 11:50 AM
There are several

1) tax fraud. any money a player receives is taxable. I'm guessing none of it was reported.
2) fraud on the part of the player towards the school. If a player knowingly accepted money and then presented themselves as an amateur, they have defrauded the university, given their scholarship almost assuredly contains a stipulation that they are an amateur
3) fraud on the part of the agent or company. Given these dealings have all happened under the table, the agent and company is almost assuredly not reporting the transactions correctly. This could run afoul of IRS and SEC regulations.

Items #2 and #3 are related, in that both the player and the agent/company defraud the university (and, depending on the timing, the high school) when the player knowingly makes false certifications regarding his amateur status to the school, taking up a scholarship that is available only to amateur athletes under false pretenses, forcing the school to forfeit any winnings, and causing the school to spend money on the resulting investigations. In addition to the tax fraud hook, there's also the mail fraud hook (i.e., using the USPS to send the signed certification regarding his amateur eligibility).

Wildling
02-23-2018, 11:53 AM
I just wish 20+ years of academic fraud would have been as big of a story as some random players mom getting her meal paid for :rolleyes:

TexHawk
02-23-2018, 12:02 PM
The NCAA precedent has been set that as long as it happened before college, the college was not involved and had no knowledge and no reasonable way to know, they are in the clear. Don't even need to vacate the games that kid played in college.

Is this accurate? I was under the impression that NCAA had not been very consistent with this (surprise!).

For example, looks like Josh Jackson's mom received money while he was in high school. That would affect his amateurism status, no? Doesn't that invalidate the games he played in college? KU wasn't involved (from what we know today), and the school wouldn't get in "trouble", but the wins would have to come off the record books.

SavDukeGrad
02-23-2018, 12:03 PM
The first response I've seen from the players or schools was from Tony Bradley's father who said his son never met with that agent. The family met at the agent's home office after Bradley declared for the draft and had pizza while the staff was introduced. Bradley eventually signed with a different agent.

The way the media is running with this, in tone and inference illustrate why the media's credibility is in free fall these days. You are hearing things like Duke and North Carolina implicated in cheating. Really? The agents might be implicated in the cheating. The players would be cheating. But unless the programs are involved with arranging meetings and money changing hands, they are NOT cheating and are in fact being cheated.

Much of this will be sorted out as we go on, but the sorting out never gets the attention that the media generated hysteria does.

Kevin Knox's father denies ever meeting Christian Dawkins or Andy Miller:

https://www.seccountry.com/kentucky/kentucky-uk-basketball-kevin-knox-father-denies-agent-meeting-yahoo-report

Hingeknocker
02-23-2018, 12:09 PM
If you're looking for well-reasoned analysis, Deadspin is a good place to start. (https://deadspin.com/who-gives-a-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.-1823260537)

And for the millionth time, but it needs to be said again, the only way to clean up the underbelly of college athletics is to remove the reason for the underbelly's existence: pay the dang players.

UrinalCake
02-23-2018, 12:11 PM
If you're looking for well-reasoned analysis, Deadspin is a good place to start.

Now there’s a sentence I never thought I would hear.

DukieInKansas
02-23-2018, 12:15 PM
The expense report is missing details. It should include a column to indicate location. There is a rental car to Nashville on 2/16 and a rental car in Detroit on 2/23. The alleged lunch was on 2/22. Where did it happen?

I don't know where the agent is located - does he live in Atlanta?

El_Diablo
02-23-2018, 12:21 PM
The expense report is missing details. It should include a column to indicate location. There is a rental car to Nashville on 2/16 and a rental car in Detroit on 2/23. The alleged lunch was on 2/22. Where did it happen?

I don't know where the agent is located - does he live in Atlanta?

Hmmm, yeah this guy's boss may want to sit down with him and ask him to document his criminal activities a little better going forward.

Hingeknocker
02-23-2018, 12:24 PM
Now there’s a sentence I never thought I would hear.

Deadspin is really good! I believe they even have two recent Duke grads on their staff. But for the type of intelligent coverage of the news that people in the thread have been clamoring for, I don't know of a better website or publication in today's landscape.

sagegrouse
02-23-2018, 12:27 PM
I am so sick of today’s media. Sloppy reporting, misleading headlines, all in the name of clickbait. Look, I get it, these are real people that have real jobs and real families to put meals on the table. And in order for their respective media companies to continue to employ them, they have to have clicks. But are there any honest media outlets left? It seems to me that it would be a fairly good idea to market “honest, accurate, candid, and direct” reporting. I’m sure there are some honest reporters that would love to work for such a company. And I know for a fact there are many viewers like myself who would proudly give my “clicks” to those types of companies.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t know of any such media outlets that do large scale reporting. Feel free to enlighten me folks.


I really, really agree. It's so sad. Across all genres and focuses.

I barely even keep tabs on news anymore because everyone has an agenda. It seems as if no one is ever just reporting facts anymore and letting others make their own conclusions. Instead, everyone reports conclusions and omits facts.

- Chillin


I’m pretty much at the same point. I am curious though, has it always been this way? I’m a fairly young guy (24) so I don’t really remember a time where this hasn’t been the case, or at least, during childhood years, didn’t know that it was or wasn’t.

I don’t mean to assume your age or anything, it just seems that from reading the posts, I can infer that most people on the board have been around longer. So I welcome any answers from the more “seasoned” individuals on the board. ��

The published web pages of the WaPo, NY Times and WSJ have excellent reporting, as do many local newspapers. And they don't do clickbait. The main news reporting sites such as CNN, NBC and CBS do some clickbait (probably based on viewer response) but also have some good reporting.

And tarring "the Media" with the actions of lesser entities is just giving in to the those accusing the Media of everything but murder and claiming "it's all lies."

DukieInKansas
02-23-2018, 12:27 PM
Hmmm, yeah this guy's boss may want to sit down with him and ask him to document his criminal activities a little better going forward.

If I were in charge of reimbursing the expense report, I would want the city listed. But, I'm an anal accountant. :D

PackMan97
02-23-2018, 12:27 PM
Is this accurate? I was under the impression that NCAA had not been very consistent with this (surprise!).

The only case I know of is Corey Magette. :) Though, I tend not to follow NCAA violations beyond the schope of Triangle or ACC teams. It would not surprise me if there were no consistency in their rulings.

sagegrouse
02-23-2018, 12:34 PM
I'm struggling to understand the criminal nature of these actions.

Are they crimes simply because we must protect the amateur nature of college athletics and as such have passed laws in how agents interact with amateur athletics?

Would this be news is it were Google or Facebook giving money to a bright college kid?

PackMan97: The charges, as I recall, are fraudulent acts causing harm to entities receiving more than some amount of government funding, which covers almost all universities. The "harm" is the violation of NCAA rules leading to financial losses and perhaps other losses. This may be a "novel construct" as our legal friends say.

rsvman
02-23-2018, 12:37 PM
Hmmm, yeah this guy's boss may want to sit down with him and ask him to document his criminal activities a little better going forward.

Apparently I must spread some comments around, yada yada yada....

dudog84
02-23-2018, 12:37 PM
To break it down a little bit

Players or families that received money:
Dennis Smith Jr. - NC State
Isaiah Whitehead - Seton Hall
Tim Quarterman - LSU
Diamond Stone - Maryland
Dam Adebayo - Kentucky
Markelle Fultz - Washington
Bennie Boatwright - USC
Chimezie Metu - USC
Eric Davis - Texas
Brian Bowen - Louisville/South Carolina
Kyle Kuzma - Utah
PJ Dozier - South Carolina
Edmond Sumner - Xavier
Fred VanVleet - Wichita State
Jaron Blossomgame - Clemson
Josh Jackson - Kansas
Miles Bridges - Michigan State

Players that simply met with Dawkins or had meals with him:
Collin Sexton - Alabama
Wendell Carter - Duke
Kevin Knox - Kentucky
North Carlina - Tony Bradley
Creighton - Justin Patton
Prince Ibeh - Texas
Demetrius Jackson - Notre Dame
Wade Baldwin - Vanderbilt
Malcom Brogdon - Virginia
Monte Morris - Iowa State

Coaches mentioned:
"Villanova coaches"
Tom Izzo

I didn't read the article because I don't want to give yahoo the click, but I would say Tom Izzo is having a bad year.

RaiderDevil
02-23-2018, 12:39 PM
I'm sorry Stephen A, Coach K's program could be in serious trouble because why? Because Wendell's mom may have had lunch with an agent? He's making it seem like Wendell was one of the players listed to who was paid $100,000. What a joke!

8114

The ESPN article list makes it look like Carter received greater than 10g in impermissible benefits.

PackMan97
02-23-2018, 12:40 PM
In an interesting turn of events, NC State and this agent have crossed paths in the past. In fact, NC State sent him a disassociation letter in 2012 for some shading dealings with an AAU coach.

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/nc-state/state-now/article201771494.html


Doyle [Senior Associate Athletic Director] said the school took action against Miller because of his dishonesty about his business relationship with Desmond Eastmond, an AAU coach.

N.C. State investigated Eastmond in 2010 to determine if he had provided impermissible benefits to N.C. State athletes. Eastmond coached the Worldwide Renegades AAU team in Georgia.

...

Miller, according to the letter from N.C. State, denied any association with Eastmond. The NCAA later found that Eastmond did have a business relationship with Miller. On July 5, 2012, the NCAA banned Eastmond and three other AAU coaches from participating in sanctioned summer league events due to their ties with Miller.


Athletic Director Yow's statement on the news story:

We learned of the report this morning and it is the first we've heard about this information. The report involves an agent NC State
disassociated with in 2012. Of course, we will fully cooperate with any investigations or inquiries
Additionally, NC State denies being contacted by Yahoo regardling the article.
https://twitter.com/Fred_Demarest/status/967067173419208704

Chicago 1995
02-23-2018, 12:42 PM
In an interesting turn of events, NC State and this agent have crossed paths in the past. In fact, NC State sent him a disassociation letter in 2012 for some shading dealings with an AAU coach.

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/nc-state/state-now/article201771494.html



Athletic Director Yow's statement on the news story:

Additionally, NC State denies being contacted by Yahoo regardling the article.
https://twitter.com/Fred_Demarest/status/967067173419208704

There was a weird tweet this morning from one of the bigger college basketball writers -- maybe Goodman -- that some programs had been complaining about Miller and him being too involved with players for quite some time; while other programs welcomed Andy Miller.

PackMan97
02-23-2018, 12:47 PM
There was a weird tweet this morning from one of the bigger college basketball writers -- maybe Goodman -- that some programs had been complaining about Miller and him being too involved with players for quite some time; while other programs welcomed Andy Miller.

You nailed it.

https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN/status/967025030961025024

Many coaches have been complaining about Andy Miller’s involvement with their players for years. Other coaches have had strong relationships with Andy Miller for years.

Lar77
02-23-2018, 12:50 PM
Yes, this. As someone who works in a regulated industry, there's a big difference between " Dinner w/..." and "Dinner for...".

So there was an alleged lunch in February 2016. When did Wendell sign his LOI? I recall it came down to Duke and Harvard and was up in the air for some time. I also recall Wendell's mother preferred Harvard.

This story is tripe masquerading as news. Makes you wonder about any of its veracity.

So is someone in the FBI in big trouble for the leak?

DarkstarWahoo
02-23-2018, 12:52 PM
So there was an alleged lunch in February 2016. When did Wendell sign his LOI? I recall it came down to Duke and Harvard and was up in the air for some time. I also recall Wendell's mother preferred Harvard.

This story is tripe masquerading as news. Makes you wonder about any of its veracity.

So is someone in the FBI in big trouble for the leak?
Brogdon also famously chose UVA over Harvard. Why are they picking on the smart kids?

rdearth15
02-23-2018, 12:52 PM
So there was an alleged lunch in February 2016. When did Wendell sign his LOI? I recall it came down to Duke and Harvard and was up in the air for some time. I also recall Wendell's mother preferred Harvard.

This story is tripe masquerading as news. Makes you wonder about any of its veracity.

So is someone in the FBI in big trouble for the leak?

Wendell did not even commit to Duke until 11/23/2016

weezie
02-23-2018, 12:57 PM
Has Shadow Commissioner Bilas weighed in yet?

arnie
02-23-2018, 12:58 PM
The ESPN article list makes it look like Carter received greater than 10g in impermissible benefits.

Just saw ESPN coverage on tv. Wendell Carter had more highlights in this feature than cumulatively for entire year. If you just watched this segment, would assume he was guilty of every possible NCAA crime. And I thought Skipper was gone?

Saratoga2
02-23-2018, 01:10 PM
Whatever issues related to disclosure of alleged impermissible benefits given to a raft of college basketball players, they all have played up until now and it is unreasonable to remove them from the lineups for uncorroborated leaks of this sort. Our Wendell and Miles Bridges are two mentioned but there are many more. The schools can make their own investigations and that will take time, but the people involved have already played a majority of the seasons games and continuing to play them now makes a lot of sense until more is learned of the allegations. Sounds like there is a ledger entry that shows a meal wasw picked up for the family during a meeting with that agent. Who knows the cost of the meal. Could be all quite innocent.

uh_no
02-23-2018, 01:15 PM
Whatever issues related to disclosure of alleged impermissible benefits given to a raft of college basketball players, they all have played up until now and it is unreasonable to remove them from the lineups for uncorroborated leaks of this sort.

If Duke believed that Wendell had committed an infraction which would jeopardize his eligibility, he would absolutely get sat. the risk of having games vacated is too great. As others have pointed out, it's quite possible that Duke ALREADY knew about this. I'd like to think we do a great job of vetting our recruits so as to avoid this kind of thing.

left_hook_lacey
02-23-2018, 01:20 PM
Just saw ESPN coverage on tv. Wendell Carter had more highlights in this feature than cumulatively for entire year. If you just watched this segment, would assume he was guilty of every possible NCAA crime. And I thought Skipper was gone?

Yep. I am home today and have had espn on in the background all day. Sportcenter named Duke and UNC first in every ticket scroll, or feature segment even though it appears Bradley and Carter did nothing wrong, or at the very least, did something that is easily fixable if the parents just pay for the meal by donating the money to chairty.

Then, on first take(I hate this show, but they lead in with this story so I stayed tuned), they also listed Duke and UNC at the top of the list of schools involved. They didn't even list State, and they had a player listed as taking the most money of anyone.

First take had an entire panel discussing the story including Goodman. While they talked, they kept showing still shots of the D at center Court in Cameron, or the tar heel at UNC, for like 20 seconds each on a loop.


There is a story here, buy it's not Duke or UNC as of now, but Espn and Yahoo have used this as obvious click bait article. Shameful.

left_hook_lacey
02-23-2018, 01:29 PM
Tony Bradley's father has released a statement saying they never went out to dinner with anyone at ASM. They had a meeting at their office, ASM ordered pizzas as Bradley and his family met with the staff. This was after Bradley declared. This article is looking more and more silly by the minute, at least as far as Duke and UNC are concerned.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/scout.com/college/north-carolina/Article/Tony-Bradleys-Father-Responds-to-Yahoo-Sports-Report--115460859

Wish Carter's parents would release something similar.

Kfanarmy
02-23-2018, 01:30 PM
The published web pages of the WaPo, NY Times and WSJ have excellent reporting, as do many local newspapers. And they don't do clickbait. The main news reporting sites such as CNN, NBC and CBS do some clickbait (probably based on viewer response) but also have some good reporting.

And tarring "the Media" with the actions of lesser entities is just giving in to the those accusing the Media of everything but murder and claiming "it's all lies."

I don't know about the WSJ's reporting...but I would say the WaPo and NY Times have fallen on hard times for the accuracy of general "reporting," though I haven't delved into their sports reporting lately. Certainly their editorials are capable expressions of their respective papers' core views and values. There aren't very many trusted agents in the facts business at the moment, perhaps sports is an exception.

Kfanarmy
02-23-2018, 01:33 PM
If you're looking for well-reasoned analysis, Deadspin is a good place to start. (https://deadspin.com/who-gives-a-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.-1823260537)

And for the millionth time, but it needs to be said again, the only way to clean up the underbelly of college athletics is to remove the reason for the underbelly's existence: pay the dang players.

The players are already compensated with an education. but that's another debate...In reality, the adults who aren't in college are usually more responsible for cheating that are the players.

bedeviled
02-23-2018, 01:35 PM
Anything under $200 won't affect eligibility per NCAA rule 16.01.1.1 so long as the benefit is repaid to a charity of the student-athlete's choice. Assuming the amount of the benefit is repaid to a charity before Duke's next game, this issue won't affect Wendell's eligibilityIn a Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/7zolr3/rule_12_vs_rule_16/), SCMatt33 (a DBR member) distinguishes NCAA Bylaw 16 from Bylaw 12. While institution/booster impermissible benefits rules have an associated dollar amount, the rules regarding benefits from an agent may be different.

Here's Bylaw 12 (http://static.lrbears.com/custompages/Compliance/BylawArticle12-Amateurism.pdf) (bold is mine):

12.3 Use of Agents.
12.3.1 General Rule.
An individual shall be ineligible for participation in an intercollegiate sport, if he or she ever has agreed (orally or in writing) to be represented by an agent for the purpose of marketing his or her athletics ability or reputation in that sport. Further, an agency contract not specifically limited in writing to a sport or particular sports shall be deemed applicable to all sports, and the individual shall be ineligible to participate in any sport.
12.3.1.1 Representation for Future Negotiations.
An individual shall be ineligible per Bylaw 12.3.1, if he or she enters into a verbal or written agreement with an agent for representation in future professional sports
negotiations that are to take place after the individual has completed his or her eligibility in that sport.
12.3.1.2 Benefits From Prospective Agents.
An individual shall be ineligible per Bylaw 12.3.1, if he or she (or his or her relatives or friends) accepts transportation or other benefits from: (Revised: 1/14/97)
(a) Any person who represents any individual in the marketing of his or her athletics ability. The receipt of such expenses constitutes compensation based on athletics skill and is an extra benefit not available to the student body in general; or
(b) An agent, even if the agent has indicated that he or she has no interest in representing the student-athlete in the marketing of his or her athletics ability or reputation and does not represent individuals in the student-athlete’s sport. (Adopted: 1/14/97)

Ian
02-23-2018, 01:37 PM
If Duke believed that Wendell had committed an infraction which would jeopardize his eligibility, he would absolutely get sat. the risk of having games vacated is too great. As others have pointed out, it's quite possible that Duke ALREADY knew about this. I'd like to think we do a great job of vetting our recruits so as to avoid this kind of thing.

Duke already knowing would be terrible. Because once the school "knows", all games played by the player who received the benefit would be subject to forfeit until he repays the money and regain eligibility. If Duke knew then all the games Carter played in so far would be in jeopardy. So hopefully Duke did not know, and Wendell's parent payed the $100.60 today to some charity.

CrazyNotCrazie
02-23-2018, 01:37 PM
I don't know about the WSJ's reporting...but I would say the WaPo and NY Times have fallen on hard times for the accuracy of general "reporting," though I haven't delved into their sports reporting lately. Certainly their editorials are capable expressions of their respective papers' core views and values. There aren't very many trusted agents in the facts business at the moment, perhaps sports is an exception.

Can I please request to all (including the Mods) that we steer this thread away from the legitimacy of various news agencies, as it is taking us way too close to PPB for my taste. Unfortunately in this day and age opinions on the legitimacy of mainstream news outlets tend to be split along party lines, and I really don't think we want to go there.

I think we all agree that the report that this thread is based on is sensationalistic and sloppy and ESPN is being its usual click-bait seeking self in pouncing on it with Duke and UNC at the top. Let's agree on that and move on.

left_hook_lacey
02-23-2018, 01:39 PM
If I were in charge of reimbursing the expense report, I would want the city listed. But, I'm an anal accountant. :D

When I saw this sheet I thought the same thing. It looks like an 8 graders tech class homework assignment.

My job and expense reports are nowhere on the level I would assume an athletic agents is, but ours are way more detailed, completely done online, and approved by several people. Many of whom are anal accounts. 😀. This would've gotten a laugh with an email that read "try again".

dukebluesincebirth
02-23-2018, 01:42 PM
Word on the street is that he ordered one to many appetizers and it pushed it over the $200 mark. So it looks like the down fall of the cheats will come down to bean dip and not academic fraud. That's word on the street.

Are they sure Sean May wasn't present at lunch??

devilsadvocate85
02-23-2018, 01:44 PM
If you're looking for well-reasoned analysis, Deadspin is a good place to start. (https://deadspin.com/who-gives-a-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.-1823260537)

And for the millionth time, but it needs to be said again, the only way to clean up the underbelly of college athletics is to remove the reason for the underbelly's existence: pay the dang players.

I can just reference my post from the last time this nonsense was used as the solution. Unless you want college basketball as we know it to end and become nothing but a minor league not associated with universities. In which case, I don't understand your motivation. It can't be done within the rules that govern higher education.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?41214-I-can-only-post-this-here-at-DBR&p=1033071#post1033071

left_hook_lacey
02-23-2018, 01:45 PM
Are they sure Sean May wasn't present at lunch??

Sean May was coached by his handlers early on to never ever never let anyone pay for his dinner because he would never be able to keep it under the allowed $200, even at McDonald's. Sean May is fat.

Kfanarmy
02-23-2018, 01:46 PM
....

The phrase "false equivalencies" comes to mind here (it's something that has played out a lot in the media in all forms, **cough cough** politics **cough cough**)... in an effort to seem unbiased (at best) or drive viewership (at worst) the news seems to be equating a dinner with a 6 figure payment while refusing to include the details differentiating the two. The world isn't binary, yet lately it seems that every issue is divided into two opposing camps by the news even though there are tons of important shades of gray in between. This is seemingly one of those issues. It's infuriating.


I'd have that cough looked at if I were you...

Devils Librarian
02-23-2018, 01:47 PM
When the NCAA decided that it couldn't punish a decades long academic fraud scheme, I lost any concerns I might have about things like this -- even the payments to Smith, Adebayo and the like. Don't care.

This is exactly how I feel. When I heard Louisville took down the banner my immediate reaction was, "Why?" Just stand your ground and scream, "If two decades of academic fraud does not necessitate punitive actions then nothing does!"

uh_no
02-23-2018, 01:51 PM
Duke already knowing would be terrible. Because once the school "knows", all games played by the player who received the benefit would be subject to forfeit until he repays the money and regain eligibility. If Duke knew then all the games Carter played in so far would be in jeopardy. So hopefully Duke did not know, and Wendell's parent payed the $100.60 today to some charity.

As has been pointed out, anything <200 is fine. And it would only be his parent's portion of the meal...not presumably the whole sum. For all we know, that could have happened.

Duke isn't stupid. they wouldn't "know" about the issue and then try to sweep it under the rug...for 50$ worth. Duke would not do anything to compromise their athletes eligibility. It's not worth it.

IN ANY CASE, regardless of whether Duke knew about it before this article, I trust they have or are taking the proper steps to ensure both wendell's eligibility and the validity of their game results, and based on the information we have, it seems that neither of those are in serious risk.

Kfanarmy
02-23-2018, 01:52 PM
Can I please request to all (including the Mods) that we steer this thread away from the legitimacy of various news agencies, as it is taking us way too close to PPB for my taste. Unfortunately in this day and age opinions on the legitimacy of mainstream news outlets tend to be split along party lines, and I really don't think we want to go there.

I think we all agree that the report that this thread is based on is sensationalistic and sloppy and ESPN is being its usual click-bait seeking self in pouncing on it with Duke and UNC at the top. Let's agree on that and move on.

I think we are seeing a wide variety of quality and professionalism in the handling of this story, and from my viewpoint, it largely represents what I've come to expect from the specific outlets involved. At the moment, it is sports related...and it is telling: outlandish headlines, implications not supported by the very minimal information at hand, incorporating famous entities into the story simply to draw the attention of those associated; opinions carried far beyond the facts, etc.

Hingeknocker
02-23-2018, 01:55 PM
I can just reference my post from the last time this nonsense was used as the solution. Unless you want college basketball as we know it to end and become nothing but a minor league not associated with universities. In which case, I don't understand your motivation. It can't be done within the rules that govern higher education.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?41214-I-can-only-post-this-here-at-DBR&p=1033071#post1033071

My motivation is that justly and fully compensating the players for their part of a billion dollar industry is one billion percent more important to me than the personal enjoyment that I receive by following and rooting for my alma mater's sports teams.

And I'm convinced by previous threads that there is not much purpose in a lengthy back and forth, but I severely question your premise that you can't pay the players within the rules that govern higher education. Universities have zero problem paying students in many roles on campuses. Why couldn't they pay athletes, too?

Green Wave Dukie
02-23-2018, 02:05 PM
I didn't know that shortcut. Thanks!!

I've read this whole thread and this is the most enlightening thing I have learned.

dahntaysdawg
02-23-2018, 02:05 PM
Have we actually decided what the applicable bylaw is here? I keep seeing people referencing 12 and then others referencing 16.

devilsadvocate85
02-23-2018, 02:05 PM
My motivation is that justly and fully compensating the players for their part of a billion dollar industry is one billion percent more important to me than the personal enjoyment that I receive by following and rooting for my alma mater's sports teams.

And I'm convinced by previous threads that there is not much purpose in a lengthy back and forth, but I severely question your premise that you can't pay the players within the rules that govern higher education. Universities have zero problem paying students in many roles on campuses. Why couldn't they pay athletes, too?

Unless the federal government is going to repeal Title IX, you have to pay all athletes equally. It is not an option and it's not affordable. The cost to pay athletes even a college graduate salary would be in the tens of billions per year. I would also challenge you to come up with any reasonable way to calculate the "their part" that you feel so strongly about. I can almost guarantee you, that it's not all of the billion dollar industry and it's probably only a small percentage of it. Then divide that among all athletes and you'll come up with a number that won't even pay for their education. Then what?

My premise isn't a premise, it's a fact of federal law. You can pay/compensate student athletes, but you have to compensate them all and compensate them all equally.

Troublemaker
02-23-2018, 02:10 PM
A lot of people are referencing Rule 16 that exempts players from losing eligibility for issues under $100. That doesn't apply here. This has to do with AGENTS. It's going to be dealt with under Rule 12, which has NO minimum dollar amount.

Not to say the NCAA won't say "pay it to charity and you're okay", but it's definitely not a guarantee.


In a Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/7zolr3/rule_12_vs_rule_16/), SCMatt33 (a DBR member) distinguishes NCAA Bylaw 16 from Bylaw 12. While institution/booster impermissible benefits rules have an associated dollar amount, the rules regarding benefits from an agent may be different.

Here's Bylaw 12 (http://static.lrbears.com/custompages/Compliance/BylawArticle12-Amateurism.pdf) (bold is mine):

Gulp.

Re-posting the above because it's a very important distinction.


Have we actually decided what the applicable bylaw is here? I keep seeing people referencing 12 and then others referencing 16.

I think it's pretty straightforward that's it's Bylaw 12.3 (dealing with Agents) that is applicable here.

bedeviled
02-23-2018, 02:12 PM
Have we actually decided what the applicable bylaw is here? I keep seeing people referencing 12 and then others referencing 16Yeah, um, everyone seems focused on 16, but I think that's wrong. Bylaw 16 (which has the <$200 rule) defines impermissible benefits as coming from the institution or its boosters:

NCAA Bylaw 16.02.3 (Extra Benefit): An extra benefit is any special arrangement by an institutional employee or a representative of the institution’s athletics interests to provide a SA or the SA’s relative or friend a benefit not expressly authorized by NCAA legislation
Bylaw 12 pertains to benefits from agents. Bylaw 12 does NOT explicitly state the <$200 rule.

ETA: I've been looking for an historical case example of a player getting <$100 or $200 from an agent, but haven't found one. So, who knows how the NCAA will handle it.....or how long it will take

Hingeknocker
02-23-2018, 02:21 PM
My premise isn't a premise, it's a fact of federal law. You can pay/compensate student athletes, but you have to compensate them all and compensate them all equally.

I am not an expert in Title IX law, but this is not my understanding of how it plays out. As an example, I believe the Duke men's basketball team receives way more free Nike gear than the Duke women's soccer team. I know that Title IX places rules around the equitable distribution of scholarship places. Does it also mandate equal spending on all aspects of fielding a team?

Even so, my point is a moral one, not a 'what is currently legal' one. If Title IX were the only thing standing between the players and them earning their full value, then we should amend Title IX. Or, yes, entirely dismantle the NCAA as we know it today.

75Crazie
02-23-2018, 02:24 PM
... Unless you want college basketball as we know it to end and become nothing but a minor league not associated with universities.
But that, aside from a very tenuous connection between athlete and university, is pretty much what P5 conference football and basketball have already become ... in all but name. U*NC has proven that there is no need to educate "college" athletes whatsoever ... and the NCAA has proven that it is copacetic with that attitude. Why continue to give lip service to the "student athlete" concept when it is pretty much dead and buried?

El_Diablo
02-23-2018, 02:26 PM
I am not an expert in Title IX law, but this is not my understanding of how it plays out. As an example, I believe the Duke men's basketball team receives way more free Nike gear than the Duke women's soccer team. I know that Title IX places rules around the equitable distribution of scholarship places. Does it also mandate equal spending on all aspects of fielding a team?

Even so, my point is a moral one, not a 'what is currently legal' one. If Title IX were the only thing standing between the players and them earning their full value, then we should amend Title IX. Or, yes, entirely dismantle the NCAA as we know it today.

Take this discussion elsewhere please.

Troublemaker
02-23-2018, 02:28 PM
Yeah, um, everyone seems focused on 16, but I think that's wrong. Bylaw 16 (which has the <$200 rule) defines impermissible benefits as coming from the institution or its boosters:

Bylaw 12 pertains to benefits from agents. Bylaw 12 does NOT explicitly state the <$200 rule.

ETA: I've been looking for an historical case example of a player getting <$100 or $200 from an agent, but haven't found one. So, who knows how the NCAA will handle it...or how long it will take

It's Feb 23rd, and the NCAA moves at a snail's pace. If we're waiting on them before playing Wendell, we're probably screwed.

IF this lunch really took place, hopefully Kylia Carter paid for herself. And regardless -- and even though I hate saying this -- unless Longhorn had a security camera trained on their table, the NCAA would never be able to prove that the meeting took place and/or that she didn't pay for her own meal.

Hopefully we see Wendell play tomorrow. That's where I'm at with all this.

gocanes0506
02-23-2018, 02:29 PM
I guess chalk it up for idiocy but what does Carter's mom deciding to have a meal with an agent have to do with anything?

Agent: Hi Mrs. (enter name here) we believe we could be outstanding representation for your kid in 3 years. Could we meet to talk about what we can do for your kid?
Mom: Sure
*Gives Presentation during dinner*
Mom: Either "no" or "we would like to wait to make this decision."

Is much different from Agents giving money or gifts to the athlete (directly) to sign with them (or a loan if they dont) or the agent paying for family meals consistently to entice to sign or say thanks for signing later.

oldnavy
02-23-2018, 02:31 PM
Unless the federal government is going to repeal Title IX, you have to pay all athletes equally. It is not an option and it's not affordable. The cost to pay athletes even a college graduate salary would be in the tens of billions per year. I would also challenge you to come up with any reasonable way to calculate the "their part" that you feel so strongly about. I can almost guarantee you, that it's not all of the billion dollar industry and it's probably only a small percentage of it. Then divide that among all athletes and you'll come up with a number that won't even pay for their education. Then what?

My premise isn't a premise, it's a fact of federal law. You can pay/compensate student athletes, but you have to compensate them all and compensate them all equally.

Nor is there any incentive for anyone to pay them... the NCAA wouldn't benefit. Then NBA wouldn't benefit. I assume those are the two potential payers in such a scenario. The only way to force the issue is for the players to collectively put pressure on the NCAA and or NBA to pay them, and that isn't going to happen anytime soon.... there are probably a 1000+ kids who would love to take a DI scholarship turned down by a "striking" HS senior.

Besides, any type of payment system would have to be governed... which just means different rules to be broken by those who break rules....

I do fear however that we are closer to seeing NCAA revenue sports disappear than we are to seeing them become fully amateur again...

Hingeknocker
02-23-2018, 02:38 PM
Take this discussion elsewhere please.

Fair enough. I should have remembered this is not the proper place for this discussion, and look forward to others heeding this admonition.

brlftz
02-23-2018, 02:42 PM
Fair enough. I should have remembered this is not the proper place for this discussion, and look forward to others heeding this admonition.

With the insane amount of off-topic discussion and inane puns around here, I'm sad that this is the thing that gets called out. I actually am quite curious if such a scheme would be allowed by Title IX.

Ian
02-23-2018, 02:48 PM
It's Feb 23rd, and the NCAA moves at a snail's pace. If we're waiting on them before playing Wendell, we're probably screwed.

IF this lunch really took place, hopefully Kylia Carter paid for herself. And regardless -- and even though I hate saying this -- unless Longhorn had a security camera trained on their table, the NCAA would never be able to prove that the meeting took place and/or that she didn't pay for her own meal.

Hopefully we see Wendell play tomorrow. That's where I'm at with all this.

Wouldn't they have to prove that she actually ate the meal also?

El_Diablo
02-23-2018, 02:55 PM
With the insane amount of off-topic discussion and inane puns around here, I'm sad that this is the thing that gets called out. I actually am quite curious if such a scheme would be allowed by Title IX.

I am not a mod, so feel free to disregard my request. But I made the request because I am (and presumably many others are) following these developments closely and do not want this thread to morph into a general "pay the players" debate. Can't you just start a separate thread about Title IX and paying players if you are curious about it?

Bluedevil114
02-23-2018, 03:01 PM
Tony Bradley's father has released a statement saying they never went out to dinner with anyone at ASM. They had a meeting at their office, ASM ordered pizzas as Bradley and his family met with the staff. This was after Bradley declared. This article is looking more and more silly by the minute, at least as far as Duke and UNC are concerned.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/scout.com/college/north-carolina/Article/Tony-Bradleys-Father-Responds-to-Yahoo-Sports-Report--115460859

Wish Carter's parents would release something similar.

Carter’s family can’t release similar statement. They do not serve pizza a Longhorn.

duke4ever19
02-23-2018, 03:06 PM
All I know is that because of the way the media has portrayed this, Duke is now deemed “dirty” in the court of public opinion.

Philly sports radio mentioned the scandal today and they had a field day laughing at Duke and Coach K being “corrupt.” They were saying that the OAD did K in etc. None of it is accurate, but this is what you get with sensational headlines. So now your Average Joe listening to sports radio in Philly and New Jersey thinks that Duke has now been exposed and Coach K’s legacy is tarnished. And when Duke isn’t punished (because so far it’s just Wendell Carter and a meal at Longhorns’)people will chalk it up to Duke privilege etc.

I know nothing can be done, but it really pisses me off that such a minor event will further perpetuate silly narratives.

rdearth15
02-23-2018, 03:13 PM
All I know is that because of the way the media has portrayed this, Duke is now deemed “dirty” in the court of public opinion.

Philly sports radio mentioned the scandal today and they had a field day laughing at Duke and Coach K being “corrupt.” They were saying that the OAD did K in etc. None of it is accurate, but this is what you get with sensational headlines. So now your Average Joe listening to sports radio in Philly and New Jersey thinks that Duke has now been exposed and Coach K’s legacy is tarnished. And when Duke isn’t punished (because so far it’s just Wendell Carter and a meal at Longhorns’)people will chalk it up to Duke privilege etc.

I know nothing can be done, but it really pisses me off that such a minor event will further perpetuate silly narratives.


Pretty much summed up my thoughts on this whole thing in your post. Guess all that's left to do now is win every game from here out and claim the ACC Tournament and National Championship!


GO DUKE!!!

proelitedota
02-23-2018, 03:14 PM
Carter's mom should just say she didn't eat the food.

FerryFor50
02-23-2018, 03:15 PM
All I know is that because of the way the media has portrayed this, Duke is now deemed “dirty” in the court of public opinion.

Philly sports radio mentioned the scandal today and they had a field day laughing at Duke and Coach K being “corrupt.” They were saying that the OAD did K in etc. None of it is accurate, but this is what you get with sensational headlines. So now your Average Joe listening to sports radio in Philly and New Jersey thinks that Duke has now been exposed and Coach K’s legacy is tarnished. And when Duke isn’t punished (because so far it’s just Wendell Carter and a meal at Longhorns’)people will chalk it up to Duke privilege etc.

I know nothing can be done, but it really pisses me off that such a minor event will further perpetuate silly narratives.

Did they fail to mention the Nova coaches appearing on the list? Maybe you should call in and remind them. ;)

Fish80
02-23-2018, 03:20 PM
Pop quiz: name the player who was honored by the cheer “please don’t eat me”.

FerryFor50
02-23-2018, 03:20 PM
Pop quiz: name the player who was honored by the cheer “please don’t eat me”.

Was that Nigel Dixon of FSU?

kshepinthehouse
02-23-2018, 03:21 PM
Pop quiz: name the player who was honored by the cheer “please don’t eat me”.

Nigel Dixon from FSU?

El_Diablo
02-23-2018, 03:24 PM
Carter's mom should just say she didn't eat the food.

That's possible but somewhat implausible. But yeah, it seems the best outcome would be (a) she paid for her portion of the meal, (b) she didn't have anything, or (c) she was not actually there.

Other players' families (namely, Knox and Brogdon) have already publicly come forward with option (c).

subzero02
02-23-2018, 03:37 PM
That's possible but somewhat implausible. But yeah, it seems the best outcome would be (a) she paid for her portion of the meal, (b) she didn't have anything, or (c) she was not actually there.

Other players' families (namely, Knox and Brogdon) have already publicly come forward with option (c).

Duke's lawyers are probably writing a statement for her now. This entire situation is so ridiculous that it's comical.

We're sitting here talking about whether or not someone ate lunch...

I honestly don't care what the outcome is.

uh_no
02-23-2018, 03:39 PM
Duke's lawyers are probably writing a statement for her now. This entire situation is so ridiculous that it's comical.

We're sitting here talking about whether or not someone ate lunch...

I honestly don't care what the outcome is.

Well, if that's now on topic, I can say definitively that I did in fact eat lunch today. It was chicken and waffles from the cock-a-doodle-moo food truck, and yes, it was delicious. I regret nothing.

FerryFor50
02-23-2018, 03:39 PM
Duke statement:

https://twitter.com/_Brian_Hamilton/status/967135712326963200

8116

oldnavy
02-23-2018, 03:40 PM
All I know is that because of the way the media has portrayed this, Duke is now deemed “dirty” in the court of public opinion.

Philly sports radio mentioned the scandal today and they had a field day laughing at Duke and Coach K being “corrupt.” They were saying that the OAD did K in etc. None of it is accurate, but this is what you get with sensational headlines. So now your Average Joe listening to sports radio in Philly and New Jersey thinks that Duke has now been exposed and Coach K’s legacy is tarnished. And when Duke isn’t punished (because so far it’s just Wendell Carter and a meal at Longhorns’)people will chalk it up to Duke privilege etc.

I know nothing can be done, but it really pisses me off that such a minor event will further perpetuate silly narratives.

I feel your pain, but let me give you some advice...

Don't let it make you mad. Don't give them the power. It's a lot easier said than done, but either learn to not care or if you can't get to that point, then don't read or watch the news and mute the TV during Duke games....

It took me about 40 years to learn this lesson, and yet I still fall into the trap of letting the morons of the world upset me from time to time.... :)

Haters are going to hate... just like UNC fans are going to believe that Ol Roy didn't know and you waste precious time and emotional capital when you try to fight it...

sagegrouse
02-23-2018, 03:44 PM
With the insane amount of off-topic discussion and inane puns around here, I'm sad that this is the thing that gets called out. I actually am quite curious if such a scheme would be allowed by Title IX.

Yeah, but this thread deals with a very serious matter facing Duke and college basketball.

El_Diablo
02-23-2018, 03:45 PM
Duke statement:

https://twitter.com/_Brian_Hamilton/status/967135712326963200

8116

That's encouraging.

proelitedota
02-23-2018, 03:52 PM
Wrap it up.

On to the NEXT leak.

sagegrouse
02-23-2018, 03:54 PM
That's encouraging.

Here's the statement in non-image form:

Statement from Duke University Vice President & Director of Athletics Kevin White Regarding Yahoo! Sports Report from February 23, 2018 --

"A Duke student-athlete was identified in a Yahoo! Sports report this morning about men's college basketball. Duke immediately reviewed the matter and, based on the available information, determined there are no eligibility issues related to today's report. Duke has already contacted the NCAA and will continue to work collaboratively with the NCAA and the Atlantic Coast Conference. Duke has an uncompromising commitment to compliance in athletics. That has not, and will not, change."

Scorp4me
02-23-2018, 04:01 PM
As I have argued on numerous other issues, UNC has made the path clear in this area and others as to how schools should respond. We should simply argue that the NCAA has no jurisdiction over "food" and that "food" provided by agents is not just for athletes but the student body at large. Any other morally, ethically, legally, or even common sense approach to it risk ACTUAL punishment.

billy
02-23-2018, 04:03 PM
Duke immediately reviewed the matter and, based on the available information, determined there are no eligibility issues related to today's report.

Given the extent to which we were told Duke was super-proactive in assessing and clearing eligibility issues when MBIII declared “early”, I would be shocked if extensive questioning/vetting of all commits doesn’t occur by Duke well before they arrive.

jv001
02-23-2018, 04:10 PM
What really get's me is that this incident will or has gotten more press than UNceat's years of cheating that they acknowledged. Where was Stephen A. when the NCAA was investigating the cheats. GoDuke!

weezie
02-23-2018, 04:12 PM
Wouldn't they have to prove that she actually ate the meal also?

Yeah! It is Longhorn "Steak"house after all. I would have turned that date down.

weezie
02-23-2018, 04:14 PM
...Where was Stephen A. when the NCAA was investigating the cheats. GoDuke!

Did you hear him gargling over it on his radio show today with Curly "Seth" Greenberg?

I did...for about 2.02 minutes and then I saw a cow in a field and switched over to Howard Stern reruns.

oldnavy
02-23-2018, 04:20 PM
What really get's me is that this incident will or has gotten more press than UNceat's years of cheating that they acknowledged. Where was Stephen A. when the NCAA was investigating the cheats. GoDuke!

Prime reason that I try to not watch ESPN.

I messed up a few weeks ago and was watching sports center when Grayson got his legs taken out on a driving dunk attempt and hit the ground hard. The female commentator (don't know who, don't care who) on SC said "he jumped too early" when in fact the defender was given a flagrant 2 for cutting under him....

So if you were watching SC to get "news" you would have thought that GA wasn't coordinated to dunk the ball on a break away.... when in FACT he was undercut and the foul was called correctly during the game....

devildeac
02-23-2018, 04:21 PM
As I have argued on numerous other issues, UNC has made the path clear in this area and others as to how schools should respond. We should simply argue that the NCAA has no jurisdiction over "food" and that "food" provided by agents is not just for athletes but the student body at large. Any other morally, ethically, legally, or even common sense approach to it risk ACTUAL punishment.

Even simpler explanation: typo.

cato
02-23-2018, 04:30 PM
That's encouraging.

Is it? The statement is quite narrow. Note the qualifiers, “based on available information” and “related to today’s report.”

I am happy that the University feels comfortable putting out a statement saying there are no issues related to this report that they know of. I would be more encouraged by a broader statement or something clear from K.

Ian
02-23-2018, 04:34 PM
Is it? The statement is quite narrow. Note the qualifiers, “based on available information” and “related to today’s report.”

I am happy that the University feels comfortable putting out a statement saying there are no issues related to this report that they know of. I would be more encouraged by a broader statement or something clear from K.

Isn't the "commitment to compliance" is the broader statement you're looking for.

cato
02-23-2018, 04:45 PM
Isn't the "commitment to compliance" is the broader statement you're looking for.

In the big picture, yes. I suppose the tone of the statement also gives me comfort. But the narrowness of the statement makes me worried that Duke is worried that there are other issues out there.

Ultimately, I guess I am just worried.

PackMan97
02-23-2018, 04:49 PM
In the big picture, yes. I suppose the tone of the statement also gives me comfort. But the narrowness of the statement makes me worried that Duke is worried that there are other issues out there.

Ultimately, I guess I am just worried.

In an area of compliance you'll never hear the type of broad statement you are seeking.

IrishDevil
02-23-2018, 04:55 PM
Here's the statement in non-image form:

Statement from Duke University Vice President & Director of Athletics Kevin White Regarding Yahoo! Sports Report from February 23, 2018 --

"A Duke student-athlete was identified in a Yahoo! Sports report this morning about men's college basketball. Duke immediately reviewed the matter and, based on the available information, determined there are no eligibility issues related to today's report. Duke has already contacted the NCAA and will continue to work collaboratively with the NCAA and the Atlantic Coast Conference. Duke has an uncompromising commitment to compliance in athletics. That has not, and will not, change."

I am glad that Duke addressed this with a timely public statement and I am very glad about the results of Duke's review of this situation.

That last sentence and its failed parallel structure, though...

OZ
02-23-2018, 05:04 PM
Is it? The statement is quite narrow. Note the qualifiers, “based on available information” and “related to today’s report.”

I am happy that the University feels comfortable putting out a statement saying there are no issues related to this report that they know of. I would be more encouraged by a broader statement or something clear from K.

I would think that Duke officials would have made a call or two, before releasing this. I would also think the "narrowness" and "qualifiers" are also based on the "narrowness" of the subject (a meal), thus the "narrowness of the focus. Why say more than needs to be said?

Second question... Does any "knowledgeable" person actually watch Stephen A. and pay any attention to him? If so, I am stunned.

sagegrouse
02-23-2018, 05:12 PM
I would think that Duke officials would have made a call or two, before releasing this. I would also think the "narrowness" and "qualifiers" are also based on the "narrowness" of the subject (a meal), thus the "narrowness of the focus. Why say more than needs to be said?

Second question... Does any "knowledgeable" person actually watch Stephen A. and pay any attention to him? If so, I am stunned.

I imagine that the Duke compliance staff is "joined at the hip" with the NCAA compliance folks. Thus, I would be surprised if the announcement wasn't given to the NCAA "for comment" before it was released.

Troublemaker
02-23-2018, 05:22 PM
In the big picture, yes. I suppose the tone of the statement also gives me comfort. But the narrowness of the statement makes me worried that Duke is worried that there are other issues out there.

Ultimately, I guess I am just worried.

I think it's more that Duke is being precise because they are powerless to investigate this issue with any depth. When Duke says it "reviewed the matter," I can't see that being more than just a phone call to Kylia Carter. Wendell's mom likely told Duke that the lunch didn't occur or that she paid her end if it did, and we chose to believe her and to continue playing Wendell (as we should, given no contradicting evidence and the fact that Christian Dawkins is a very shady character who has lied in the past (https://sports.yahoo.com/meet-christian-dawkins-sloppy-reckless-prodigy-college-hoops-brink-213959726.html) and very well could've faked an expense report). But it's not like Duke can know with 100% certainty.

Hingeknocker
02-23-2018, 05:32 PM
I think it's more that Duke is being precise because they are powerless to investigate this issue with any depth. When Duke says it "reviewed the matter," I can't see that being more than just a phone call to Kylia Carter. Wendell's mom likely told Duke that the lunch didn't occur or that she paid her end if it did, and we chose to believe her and to continue playing Wendell (as we should, given no contradicting evidence and the fact that Christian Dawkins is a very shady character who has lied in the past (https://sports.yahoo.com/meet-christian-dawkins-sloppy-reckless-prodigy-college-hoops-brink-213959726.html) and very well could've faked an expense report). But it's not like Duke can know with 100% certainty.

This is my read as well. And, as someone who is not a lawyer but has watched a lot of Law and Order, I see no real reason for Duke to provide additional information beyond what was published today. Respond to specifics, but anything beyond that either invites speculation or presents an opportunity to be embarrassed. (Like what happened to the other two Triangle schools who were so confident they wouldn't be part of the FBI report.)

COYS
02-23-2018, 05:32 PM
After the speculation that was swirling a week ago that this would "rock NCAA basketball to its core," the "revelations" that came out today are, well, pretty boring. It actually seems to more or less exonerate most of the major programs and top recruits. Among the players named in the report, the vast majority seem to be potentially guilty of, at worst, receiving a tiny benefit in the form of an inexpensive meal. And even in those cases, the evidence is specious, at best, as it relies on the laughably amateur expense reports from an agent who is less than honest and may or may not have fabricated some of the information to get some extra cash from his agency. It's not actually clear that there were any violations committed at all by most of the players named in the article. In addition, most of the schools seem to have no direct affiliation with the agents nor are they implicated in any under-the-table payments. In fact, it appears that NC State, the school that had a player that appears to have received the most money in the form of a loan, actually tried to get the NCAA to take action against the agents a few years ago. That is a far cry from the rumors indicating that the FBI had uncovered a scheme involving vast sums of money being funneled from agents to a significant number of NCAA basketball players and that the schools were complicit.

There are flaws in the current system to be sure. i think the argument for paying players is compelling. But call me crazy, I actually feel BETTER about NCAA basketball today than yesterday.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2018, 05:41 PM
After the speculation that was swirling a week ago that this would "rock NCAA basketball to its core," the "revelations" that came out today are, well, pretty boring. It actually seems to more or less exonerate most of the major programs and top recruits. Among the players named in the report, the vast majority seem to be potentially guilty of, at worst, receiving a tiny benefit in the form of an inexpensive meal. And even in those cases, the evidence is specious, at best, as it relies on the laughably amateur expense reports from an agent who is less than honest and may or may not have fabricated some of the information to get some extra cash from his agency. It's not actually clear that there were any violations committed at all by most of the players named in the article. In addition, most of the schools seem to have no direct affiliation with the agents nor are they implicated in any under-the-table payments. In fact, it appears that NC State, the school that had a player that appears to have received the most money in the form of a loan, actually tried to get the NCAA to take action against the agents a few years ago. That is a far cry from the rumors indicating that the FBI had uncovered a scheme involving vast sums of money being funneled from agents to a significant number of NCAA basketball players and that the schools were complicit.

There are flaws in the current system to be sure. i think the argument for paying players is compelling. But call me crazy, I actually feel BETTER about NCAA basketball today than yesterday.

I understand what you are saying, but do we have any reason to believe that the one sheet of expense report is the entirety of the case or of the accusations? I haven't gotten that impression, but I have also been actively avoiding most of the coverage today.

I assumed that this sheet is just one leaked document. If that were the case, I would find it distressing, as Duke is mentioned/implicated/accused in the one and only document released, putting us at a 100% hit rate, when I have been assured by many that there was no way that we would be touched by this.

I don't personally give a rip if someone (anyone) bought Ms Carter lunch. It feels completely irrelevant to anything having to do with his eligibility, in my mind. The solitary spreadsheet seems like a pretty flimsy smoking gun.

But, I would be shocked if this was the entirety of the case or even the center of it.

I would be happy to be wrong about this, and also admit I haven't been reading these articles. So feel free to tell me that this is the whole FBI case - I would be pleased.

Pghdukie
02-23-2018, 05:47 PM
What would Commissioner Bilas do ?

Duke79UNLV77
02-23-2018, 05:49 PM
I understand what you are saying, but do we have any reason to believe that the one sheet of expense report is the entirety of the case or of the accusations? I haven't gotten that impression, but I have also been actively avoiding most of the coverage today.

I assumed that this sheet is just one leaked document. If that were the case, I would find it distressing, as Duke is mentioned/implicated/accused in the one and only document released, putting us at a 100% hit rate, when I have been assured by many that there was no way that we would be touched by this.

I don't personally give a rip if someone (anyone) bought Ms Carter lunch. It feels completely irrelevant to anything having to do with his eligibility, in my mind. The solitary spreadsheet seems like a pretty flimsy smoking gun.

But, I would be shocked if this was the entirety of the case or even the center of it.

I would be happy to be wrong about this, and also admit I haven't been reading these articles. So feel free to tell me that this is the whole FBI case - I would be pleased.

Yahoo said it had reviewed hundreds of pages of documents. I agree that with those who believe that Yahoo has overpromised and under-delivered so far on the agent front. What we don't know is what may still be in the pipeline, such as on the shoe company front.

Duke must be pretty confident so far to play WC. I saw at least one school will be holding a player out, who actually was said to have received money, though still not in the amount that I was expecting.

uh_no
02-23-2018, 05:52 PM
What would Commissioner Bilas do ?

pay the players with money that grows on trees!

Duke79UNLV77
02-23-2018, 05:53 PM
What would Commissioner Bilas do ?

I heard Bilas some on the radio today. As expected, he would blow up the NCAA amateurism model, though he said people should play by the rules until the rules change.

He mentioned that NCAA hockey players, for example, can hire agents and still be eligible. This is just a federal crime because of the theory that the schools have been defrauded because the athletes could be ineligible. He questioned the devotion of federal resources to a crime of paying for a meal.

I don't agree with Bilas on a number of points, and I don't want to get off again on the pay-the-players debate, which should have its own thread, but I thought Bilas's points in my second paragraph were solid.

uh_no
02-23-2018, 05:55 PM
I heard Bilas some on the radio today. As expected, he would blow up the NCAA amateurism model, though he said people should play by the rules until the rules change.

He mentioned that NCAA hockey players, for example, can hire agents and still be eligible. This is just a federal crime because of the theory that the schools have been defrauded because the athletes could be ineligible. He questioned the devotion of federal resources to a crime of paying for a meal.

I don't agree with Bilas on a number of points, and I don't want to get off again on the pay-the-players debate, which should have its own thread, but I thought Bilas's points in my second paragraph were solid.

That's a huge straw man. While it is accused with Wendell, it is certainly allegedly far more than a meal in some of the cases.

BandAlum83
02-23-2018, 06:15 PM
I am not an expert in Title IX law, but this is not my understanding of how it plays out. As an example, I believe the Duke men's basketball team receives way more free Nike gear than the Duke women's soccer team. I know that Title IX places rules around the equitable distribution of scholarship places. Does it also mandate equal spending on all aspects of fielding a team?

Even so, my point is a moral one, not a 'what is currently legal' one. If Title IX were the only thing standing between the players and them earning their full value, then we should amend Title IX. Or, yes, entirely dismantle the NCAA as we know it today.

I believe Title IX requires aggregate spending on scholarships for women's sports be equal to Men's sports. This results in more women's sports, I believe, because so many scholarships are given for football.

I don't believe the cost of uniforms, in total, must be equal. But if players were to be paid, I don't believe they would need to be paid equally, but equal expenditures in aggregate would be needed. So the Million each to Wendell, MBII, and Grayson would mean a windfall for quite a few women in non-revenue producing sports. Even equally divided, it would be nice "stipend" for a lot of our female athletes!

I could be totally wrong on all this, however. No research went into this. Just what I've gleaned from life experience.

OZ
02-23-2018, 06:29 PM
What would Commissioner Bilas do ?

Pay everybody associated with sports... including tent monitors.

Neals384
02-23-2018, 06:32 PM
Can I please request to all (including the Mods) that we steer this thread away from the legitimacy of various news agencies, as it is taking us way too close to PPB for my taste. Unfortunately in this day and age opinions on the legitimacy of mainstream news outlets tend to be split along party lines, and I really don't think we want to go there.

I think we all agree that the report that this thread is based on is sensationalistic and sloppy and ESPN is being its usual click-bait seeking self in pouncing on it with Duke and UNC at the top. Let's agree on that and move on.

Thanks, Crazy. I was troubled about some of the assertions but unclear how to challenge them without crossing a line, and equally uncomfortable leaving the assertions unchallenged. I like the way you expressed this a lot!

ipatent
02-23-2018, 06:40 PM
The Miles Bridges allegations (that an agent went to an ATM to give a $400 cash advance to his mom) are a lot more serious than accepting a free lunch from an agent. Even then, does an agent qualify as a "booster"? If not, is the Bridges situation in the NCAA's wheelhouse?

rdearth15
02-23-2018, 06:41 PM
Just heard on ESPN radio that it is anticipated more documents/information will be coming out tomorrow. Not sure what you can believe at this point, but for Yahoo it would make sense, slowly leak things day by day and keep the traffic to their site high over an extended period of time.

Saratoga2
02-23-2018, 06:51 PM
Just heard on ESPN radio that it is anticipated more documents/information will be coming out tomorrow. Not sure what you can believe at this point, but for Yahoo it would make sense, slowly leak things day by day and keep the traffic to their site high over an extended period of time.

Got to wonder if someone in the FBI is trying to make a name for himself and the facts don't support the assertions that this is a momentous issue for the NCAA.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2018, 06:58 PM
I believe Title IX requires aggregate spending on scholarships for women's sports be equal to Men's sports. This results in more women's sports, I believe, because so many scholarships are given for football.

I don't believe the cost of uniforms, in total, must be equal. But if players were to be paid, I don't believe they would need to be paid equally, but equal expenditures in aggregate would be needed. So the Million each to Wendell, MBII, and Grayson would mean a windfall for quite a few women in non-revenue producing sports. Even equally divided, it would be nice "stipend" for a lot of our female athletes!

I could be totally wrong on all this, however. No research went into this. Just what I've gleaned from life experience.

How about this...

Let agents pay players. They can pay them as much or as little as they like. Players who agents believe will make big time contracts at the next level will obviously be a bigger draw and will warrant more money.

If an agent pays lots of money for a kid who doesn't pan out in the NBA, well, no one will lose and sleep over it.

It seems like a good version of supply and demand to me.

DukieInKansas
02-23-2018, 07:05 PM
I understand what you are saying, but do we have any reason to believe that the one sheet of expense report is the entirety of the case or of the accusations? I haven't gotten that impression, but I have also been actively avoiding most of the coverage today.

I assumed that this sheet is just one leaked document. If that were the case, I would find it distressing, as Duke is mentioned/implicated/accused in the one and only document released, putting us at a 100% hit rate, when I have been assured by many that there was no way that we would be touched by this.

I don't personally give a rip if someone (anyone) bought Ms Carter lunch. It feels completely irrelevant to anything having to do with his eligibility, in my mind. The solitary spreadsheet seems like a pretty flimsy smoking gun.

But, I would be shocked if this was the entirety of the case or even the center of it.

I would be happy to be wrong about this, and also admit I haven't been reading these articles. So feel free to tell me that this is the whole FBI case - I would be pleased.

If you were going to leak a document and wanted the biggest "bang for your buck", would you leak a page with names associated with the Slippery Rocks of the world or a page with Duke on it?

(I used Slippery Rock to give poor Cleveland State a break - they get enough sanctions from the NCAA for the bigger named programs as it is. In no way do I mean to insinuate that Slippery Rock has done anything wrong.)

JasonEvans
02-23-2018, 07:07 PM
Just catching up after being away from this thread for a few hours…



- I know the NBA makes some effort to regulate agents, but I wish they went a lot further to keep sketchy characters away - it would really clean up the whole process. I know there are some who would argue that that is over-regulation but I think if the NBA had some basic common sense requirements for agents (like don't give tens of thousands of dollars to players who still have eligibility), it would help.

What does the NBA care about whether agents endanger a player’s eligibility? The NBA is not in the business of preserving the eligibility of college or high school players. I don’t know why the NBA would care at all. Heck, in terms of producing better trained players, the NBA would probably welcome an agent who paid a kid not to go to school but to spend the entire year that would have been their freshman year working with a personal coach and developing skills 8+hours a day.


But, I would be shocked if this was the entirety of the case or even the center of it.

Ding ding ding ding! Exactly! This is one small, tiny, nothing part of the case, I bet. There are apparently recorded phone conversations, wiretapped meetings, and probably a host of other documents. This is just one small thing that Yahoo got access to. I bet we hear about much worse stuff as more and more comes out.

Still, much of this is largely a big heap of nothing in terms of how it impacts the current college basketball landscape... with the exception of the guys who reportedly got loans. That is a more significant issue and seems like it could impact current players at Mich St, USC, and a few other schools. We will see how schools handle it over the weekend when guys either play or not.

-Jason "so far, this is a lot of nothing... but we should not think the entire investigation is a bust as a result" Evans

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2018, 07:07 PM
If you were going to leak a document and wanted the biggest "bang for your buck", would you leak a page with names associated with the Slippery Rocks of the world or a page with Duke on it?

(I used Slippery Rock to give poor Cleveland State a break - they get enough sanctions from the NCAA for the bigger named programs as it is. In no way do I mean to insinuate that Slippery Rock has done anything wrong.)

That makes an elememt of sense. Or, you might leak a page with the most names on it first, with the more specific damming documents and details in subsequent leaks.

Ian
02-23-2018, 07:13 PM
How about this...

Let agents pay players. They can pay them as much or as little as they like. Players who agents believe will make big time contracts at the next level will obviously be a bigger draw and will warrant more money.

If an agent pays lots of money for a kid who doesn't pan out in the NBA, well, no one will lose and sleep over it.

It seems like a good version of supply and demand to me.

Let all third parties be able to pay them. Agents, boosters, sponsors, endorsements, etc.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2018, 07:17 PM
Let all third parties be able to pay them. Agents, boosters, sponsors, endorsements, etc.

Endorsements certainly make sense. I really don't see any downside to taking money directly from Nike and putting it in the hands of the talented players. It seems more honest.

UrinalCake
02-23-2018, 07:41 PM
It could be that more documents are coming. But I’d have to think that if more Duke players were involved, they would have been on the first page that got released. I guess we’ll see.

I also wonder what motivation is driving the insiders who are leaking these documents. Aren’t they breaking laws by leaking them? Is Yahoo paying them a boatload if money for this?

lotusland
02-23-2018, 07:46 PM
How about this...

Let agents pay players. They can pay them as much or as little as they like. Players who agents believe will make big time contracts at the next level will obviously be a bigger draw and will warrant more money.

If an agent pays lots of money for a kid who doesn't pan out in the NBA, well, no one will lose and sleep over it.

It seems like a good version of supply and demand to me.

I don’t mind this at least in theory. Most Duke players would get paid but most college players would not warrant payments against future earnings. I would not want to see Duke’s boosters trying to out bid UK and UNCheat (or other schools) for the best players. While signing with a shoe company could be done apart from the school, other endorsements would be more of a slippery slope. Fats could easily sign players to endorsement deals for his various business endeavors.

PeteZaHut
02-23-2018, 07:56 PM
Thinking about guys like Brogdon and Wendell Carter. IF this is true, it's really disappointing that their parents would put their kids' eligibility at risk with something so stupid. They're well-educated people that should know better.

Before you bite my head off, I said IF it's true...

weezie
02-23-2018, 08:06 PM
Got to wonder if someone in the FBI is trying to make a name for himself and the facts don't support the assertions that this is a momentous issue for the NCAA.

Maybe low-hanging fruit for the US Atty, Southern District of NY, too?

devilseven
02-23-2018, 08:11 PM
The old adage "there's no such thing as a free lunch", still rings true.

subzero02
02-23-2018, 08:12 PM
Endorsements certainly make sense. I really don't see any downside to taking money directly from Nike and putting it in the hands of the talented players. It seems more honest.

Big Baller Dollars...

gofurman
02-23-2018, 08:25 PM
In a Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/7zolr3/rule_12_vs_rule_16/), SCMatt33 (a DBR member) distinguishes NCAA Bylaw 16 from Bylaw 12. While institution/booster impermissible benefits rules have an associated dollar amount, the rules regarding benefits from an agent may be different.

Here's Bylaw 12 (http://static.lrbears.com/custompages/Compliance/BylawArticle12-Amateurism.pdf) (bold is mine):

Help me out. Prob already said but is law 12 applicable? If so, how does that look for Carter? (I get that bylaw 16 has a $200 number)

Sure it's been posted but I read a few pages and couldn't find a definitive answer ..? Thanks in advance for help

JasonEvans
02-23-2018, 08:26 PM
MOD MODE ACTIVATED!

Folks, this thread is moving fast enough and there is enough to talk about so that we do not need it to be derailed by the debate about paying players and what the NCAA should or should not do about the future of college hoops. Please refrain from bogging this thread down with that talk. There are other threads for that (and we have discussed it enough so that I doubt any of us can bring something new to the conversation at this point).

MOD MODE OFF...

-Jason

jipops
02-23-2018, 08:38 PM
Thinking about guys like Brogdon and Wendell Carter. IF this is true, it's really disappointing that their parents would put their kids' eligibility at risk with something so stupid. They're well-educated people that should know better.

Before you bite my head off, I said IF it's true...

Even if it is, so what? It's a dinner, at a food chain restaurant. I doubt the parents thought much of it when the bill was picked up. Now getting a loan is one thing, but picking up a dinner check to Carrabas or Longhorn Steakhouse...meh. I know it's against the rules, but I don't expect parents to be compliance officers in that regard.

Fish80
02-23-2018, 09:30 PM
Wtf. What is worse? Fake paper classes? Or free hamburger for
your mama?

gocanes0506
02-23-2018, 09:34 PM
Wtf. What is worse? Fake paper classes? Or free hamburger for
your mama?

Easy, hamburgers for mamas. Agents arent clamoring to take out every students’ mommas. So its not available to everyone. Every student supposedly had access to fake classes.

Skydog
02-23-2018, 09:37 PM
Wtf. What is worse? Fake paper classes? Or free hamburger for
your mama?

I was going to say "fake paper classes" ... but that is too easy. So I'm going to assume this is a trick question and go with "free hamburger."

Did I win?!

mkirsh
02-23-2018, 09:37 PM
Honestly, the biggest revelation to me in today’s news is what a crappy business model these agents have. Did they sign any of the players they paid? They need to seriously rethink their marketing spend and client acquisition strategy.

Fish80
02-23-2018, 09:44 PM
I was going to say "fake paper classes" ... but that is too easy. So I'm going to assume this is a trick question and go with "free hamburger."

Did I win?!

Tricky. Who knows how much a hamburger costs? A fake paper class is worthless, therefor no value.

DarkstarWahoo
02-23-2018, 10:01 PM
Tricky. Who knows how much a hamburger costs? A fake paper class is worthless, therefor no value.

“I mean, it’s one banana, Michael. What could it cost, $10?”

pfrduke
02-23-2018, 10:14 PM
Watching Rockets-Twolves and ESPN just ran a crawler saying that sources have said the FBI has Sean Miller on a wiretap arranging a $100K payment to ensure Ayton came to Arizona. That’s bigger than a meal with a mom.

SavDukeGrad
02-23-2018, 10:14 PM
Breaking news according to ESPN - Sean Miller caught on wiretaps with Christian Dawkins:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284/sean-miller-arizona-christian-dawkins-discussed-payment-ensure-deandre-ayton-signing-according-fbi-investigation

Edit: oops pfrduke beat me to it!

JasonEvans
02-23-2018, 10:16 PM
As I said on the pod, the FBI has more than what we heard this morning.

Sean Millers career is over, I think.

pfrduke
02-23-2018, 10:21 PM
As I said on the pod, the FBI has more than what we heard this morning.

Sean Millers career is over, I think.

I am not intimately familiar with all the various recruiting violations schools have been hit with over the years, but has there ever been concrete proof of a head coach arranging a six figure payment to a recruit before (aside from Blue Chips, of course)? This seems groundbreaking.

devildeac
02-23-2018, 10:25 PM
Watching Rockets-Twolves and ESPN just ran a crawler saying that sources have said the FBI has Sean Miller on a wiretap arranging a $100K payment to ensure Ayton came to Arizona. That’s bigger than a meal with a mom.


Breaking news according to ESPN - Sean Miller caught on wiretaps with Christian Dawkins:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284/sean-miller-arizona-christian-dawkins-discussed-payment-ensure-deandre-ayton-signing-according-fbi-investigation

Edit: oops pfrduke beat me to it!

ipatent actually beat ya both to it with a post timed at 1009 on the Adidas Scandal thread tonight. I'm not gonna link it as y'all can easily find that one. :p;)

weezie
02-23-2018, 10:47 PM
Hillcrest Prep...

I don't feel so good.

UrinalCake
02-23-2018, 11:06 PM
I kind of recall Ayton having eligibility concerns even before he got to Arizona. Some top coaches were said to have avoided recruiting him because they didn’t think he’d ever play in college. Does this sound at all familiar?

atoomer0881
02-23-2018, 11:09 PM
I kind of recall Ayton having eligibility concerns even before he got to Arizona. Some top coaches were said to have avoided recruiting him because they didn’t think he’d ever play in college. Does this sound at all familiar?

Absolutely remember that. I feel like there was an article about him being one of the best high school players and teams such as Duke and Kentucky weren't interested... which seemed odd

Hate to link to Kentucky sites but these are the articles I remember reading:
http://www.kentucky.com/sports/college/kentucky-sports/uk-basketball-men/article73557867.html
https://www.aseaofblue.com/2016/4/23/11493632/deandre-ayton-kentucky-wildcats-duke-blue-devils

sagegrouse
02-23-2018, 11:13 PM
I kind of recall Ayton having eligibility concerns even before he got to Arizona. Some top coaches were said to have avoided recruiting him because they didn’t think he’d ever play in college. Does this sound at all familiar?

What's odd to me is that $100K is tiny compared with a rookie NBA contract, and he was virtually assured of being a high lottery pick. What's the hurry?

weezie
02-23-2018, 11:14 PM
I kind of recall Ayton having eligibility concerns even before he got to Arizona. Some top coaches were said to have avoided recruiting him because they didn’t think he’d ever play in college. Does this sound at all familiar?

Yes, but it was never actually explained what the issues were? Hinted about Hillcrest problems but surely there would have been more to report if that was the root.

SoCalDukeFan
02-23-2018, 11:19 PM
The coaches get multi-million dollar contracts. Their success is really tied to the success of the team which is tied to the ability of the players on the team. In basketball it only takes one or two players to turn a team from an ok team to a great team. So there is tremendous incentive for the coaches to do whatever it takes to get the best players.

I think Coach K knows that he has earned it. He really does not need to cheat and frankly I think if the choice for him was cheat or go home, then he would go home.

I just hope that whomever follows K understands that we want Duke to play completely within the rules. There should be no pressure to match or come close to K's record or even to win at all cost.

The other big problem is that agents who can sign a player get lots of dough off of that players contract. They have zero loyalty to the school, player's family or anything else.

Lastly, we get many of the best players. Agents etc. have tried to woo those players. I hope all resisted their overtures, but who can be sure. We are doing with high school kids here.

SoCal

weezie
02-23-2018, 11:26 PM
...We are doing with high school kids here...

And those who surround them. That may be the real danger.

subzero02
02-23-2018, 11:41 PM
What's odd to me is that $100K is tiny compared with a rookie NBA contract, and he was virtually assured of being a high lottery pick. What's the hurry?

This bull market can't be sustained forever...

I am sure that dozens of future first round picks have made similar decisions. Coming from a tough economic background can lead someone down a very different decision making process. I know Ayton moved to the US after growing up in the Bahamas.

JasonEvans
02-23-2018, 11:46 PM
What's odd to me is that $100K is tiny compared with a rookie NBA contract, and he was virtually assured of being a high lottery pick. What's the hurry?

Yeah, but up until he signs that NBA contract he’s pretty poor so $100k is nice spending money while he awaits his NBA fortune. If someone offers it and the alternative is trying to scrounge up enough money to split a pizza with a friend, not at all of a tough decision to take the money (if you are at all unscrupulous).

bedeviled
02-24-2018, 12:01 AM
Prob already said but is law 12 applicable? If so, how does that look for Carter? (I get that bylaw 16 has a $200 number)
Sure it's been posted but I read a few pages and couldn't find a definitive answer ..?Yes, Bylaw 12 is probably applicable and doesn't have the $200 number. However, you've probably already seen from FerryFor50's post (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?41483-Yahoo-Sports-Article-About-NCAA-Violations&p=1044518#post1044518) that Duke reviewed the situation and does not believe there is any eligibility issue.

If you are still concerned, here are the NCAA guidelines for student-athlete reinstatement (http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/May2017DIACP_Guidelines_20170621.pdf) in terms of repayment and games suspended (this John Infante link (https://www.athleticscholarships.net/2014/07/16/texas-football-players-facing-short-suspension-after-agent-meal.htm) briefly discusses the wiggle room in the guidelines):

- Prospective student-athlete or family member accepted benefit(s) from an agent valued at $100 or less. Eligibility reinstated based on repayment of value of the impermissible benefit(s) received and a 10-percent withholding condition.
- Prospective student-athlete or family member accepted benefit(s) from an agent greater than $100 to $300. Eligibility reinstated based on repayment of value of the impermissible benefits received and a 20-percent withholding condition.
In addition, I found 3 precedents. They, more or less, follow the guidelines. I've just included them here out of interest and because they do offer some (probably outdated) examples for the timeframe with which the NCAA acts.

Incident 1: Agent paid for meals for 4 Texas football players. School reported incidents to NCAA on June 6, 2014
Outcome: I think 2 paid for their own food. Other two were reinstated July 25, 2014 (https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/texas-players-may-have-accepted-meal-from-agent-162752919.html), and I haven't found reports of any penalties or restitution being made

Incident 2 : UCLA football player has $150 in groceries left on his doorstep (http://articles.latimes.com/1995-10-10/sports/sp-55215_1_donnie-edwards) after he gave a radio interview in which he said he didn't have food in his fridge. Agent had provided the food and had documented the expenditure in a memo. Player denies knowing how the groceries came to him. School declared him ineligible October 9, 1995.
Outcome: NCAA said there was evidence of a link between the agent and player. NCAA determined (http://articles.latimes.com/1995-10-13/sports/sp-56618_1_edwards-suspended) that player would have to sit out the October 13, 1995 game and give $150 to charity.

Incident 3: Florida basketball player enrolled in December 2013 but was declared ineligible. He had ''received preferential treatment from five people, including two agents.'' That included $270, cellphones, cell service, airfare, lodging, meals and apparel. "People close to Walker also received free airfare and lodging for nine different trips." UF filed for reinstatement January 21, 2014.
Outcome: January 29, 2014 NCAA determined (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2014/01/29/florida-freshman-chris-walker-ncaa-clearance/5035507/) he could play February 4, 2014 after sitting out 2 more games. Total punishment was 12 games (40% of season) + donating $270 to charity + 80 hours of community service

duketaylor
02-24-2018, 01:31 AM
I listened, during a break, to two sports talk-radio guys who obviously hadn't done more than name players and schools regarding this and took the giant leap that everybody's guilty of just about everything. Had I the time to call and fill them in on more particulars, I would've, though I also probably would've been chastised and hung-up on. Trying to figure out if they were local or national guys. They failed to mention any of the minute details disclose in this thread earlier today about how some were simply lunch get-togethers and others were covering flights, hotels, and even others were just advancements of money. Completely different arrangements, some of which were way beyond permissible while others were easily correctable.

It sounds as if MSU and Arizona are gonna suffer from these implications, some others as well. The unc stuff and ours seem insignificant. Many other infractions as well. If they're true. I was just not happy with how it was reflected on the radio by these two guys.

Too many talking heads on tv these days as well as on radio. Sports and other areas...

GO DUKE!!!! BEAT THE 'CUSE!!!