Civility, Common Courtesy and Mutual Respect

[Bob Green]

While the DBR welcomes discussion and robust debate, there is no place here for accusations, personal attacks, or snarky retorts. The DBR endeavors to provide an online community in which people can feel comfortable expressing their opinions, and responding to differing views, without worrying about becoming embroiled in a contentious argument that devolves into a personal dispute. In the spirit of the "neighborhood pub" atmosphere that the founders hoped to establish and the moderators are charged to maintain, everyone is encouraged to participate if they have something informative or entertaining to share; but messages that are insulting or otherwise inconsistent with the Posting Guidelines will not be tolerated. Posters who violate those guidelines will be penalized; and those who prove unwilling or unable to comply with the house rules will eventually be barred.

Because we have noticed a recent decline in the level of civility, and common courtesy, and mutual respect among members of the community that has made the DBR a welcoming place, we caution everyone to pause before pressing the "Submit" button and reconsider whether the message they're about to send is appropriate in content and wording for this forum.

[JasonEvans]

Pretend like your post is not a piece of anonymous internet drivel but, instead, is something you are saying to someone standing next to you in that neighborhood pub.

If it is a comment that might lead to that person socking you in the mouth, then probably don't post it.

-Jason "oh and one more thing... if you are someone who wanders around the pub constantly interrupting otherwise pleasant conversations to inject your own personal agenda, do't be surprised when the proprietors tell you you are bad for business and kick you out" Evans

[BD80]

Is this still the internet?

This isn't 1963. Unfortunately, Civility, Common Courtesy and Mutual Respect have been on a steady decline.

I do appreciate and applaud the effort to hold this forum to a higher standard.

I have noticed that things tend to deteriorate when posters devolve into direct arguments with one another. I find such arguments to typically be tedious strings of efforts to prove who is the most knowledgeable, or clever, or best proofreader.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

With great power comes great responsibility.

Or something.

Thanks, mods. Decorum is the proper path.

[uh_no]

Pretend like your post is not a piece of anonymous internet drivel but, instead, is something you are saying to someone standing next to you in that neighborhood pub.

If it is a comment that might lead to that person socking you in the mouth, then probably don't post it.

-Jason "oh and one more thing... if you are someone who wanders around the pub constantly interrupting otherwise pleasant conversations to inject your own personal agenda, do't be surprised when the proprietors tell you you are bad for business and kick you out" Evans

as im lucky enough to have learned, some of the posters here are real people! I'm lucky enough to have met some of them!

i can't say they're as lucky to have met me :-D

[richardjackson199]

This pub has the best beer and beer connoisseurs of any on the net

[chrishoke]

Thanks Bob. This board needed a friendly reminder.

[duke74]

With great power comes great responsibility.Or something.

Thanks, mods. Decorum is the proper path.

From another Forest Hills, NY resident.

[burnspbesq]

Maybe you could re-establish the PPB as an outlet for those who need to vent.

(I’m kidding, needless to say).

[Troublemaker]

Thanks for the reminder, Bob, Jason and mods.

As always, I'll look to myself first. I could probably stand to be less ornery in certain circumstances and will strive for better.

[jv001]

Thanks Bob and all moderators. I have found myself just scrolling through more posts because of the blah, blah, blah between posters who want to prove they are smarter than their counterpart. Then there are part-time posters that come on game day threads bashing players and coaches. I'm not talking about regular posters that know college basketball and in particular Duke University basketball. Let's hope the climate gets warmer and all Duke fans stick together. GoDuke!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Thanks mods. This pub has started to feel like a place where I don’t want to hang out as much. I’m hoping we get back to drinking good brews.

BTW, has anyone checked to see if Russian bots are responsible for the recent decline in DBR civility??? :cool:

[elvis14]

Thanks guys. I posted something similar last week after reading quite a few posts that just don't belong on DBR. I encourage everyone to attack the post and not the poster if they don't agree with a post. As Herm Edwards says "Don't hit send". Re-read and then throw away harsh posts.



as im lucky enough to have learned, some of the posters here are real people! I'm lucky enough to have met some of them!

i can't say they're as lucky to have met me :-D

I can say it. Lucky to have met you and several others. Of course I preferred it when you were more about the beer OnTap and less about being nimble :-)

[devildeac]

Thanks mods. This pub has started to feel like a place where I don’t want to hang out as much. I’m hoping we get back to drinking good brews.

BTW, has anyone checked to see if Russian bots are responsible for the recent decline in DBR civility??? :cool:

Get back to? Who stopped? :rolleyes:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3840-Ymm-Beer

;)

And a tip of the tulip to richardjackson199, too.

[fuse]

Thanks to all the mods for making DBR a pub worth visiting.

A tangible benefit of DBR have been the genesis of real life friendships and interactions over beer, football and art.

The IRL meetings have enriched an already excellent community atmosphere.

[OldPhiKap]

A timely reminder to all of us as we head down the final stretch of the season.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Can we still be snarky about Carolina and Dean's Myth?

:cool:

[duketaylor]

Thanks guys. I posted something similar last week after reading quite a few posts that just don't belong on DBR. I encourage everyone to attack the post and not the poster if they don't agree with a post. As Herm Edwards says "Don't hit send". Re-read and then throw away harsh posts.




I can say it. Lucky to have met you and several others. Of course I preferred it when you were more about the beer OnTap and less about being nimble :-)

elvis14 and I had a small skirmish last week. I explained my side, which we discussed on PM and he/she understood my point. All good.

[jacone21]

-Jason "oh and one more thing... if you are someone who wanders around the pub constantly interrupting otherwise pleasant conversations to inject your own personal agenda, do't be surprised when the proprietors tell you you are bad for business and kick you out" Evans

Down here, we call that guy the yankee. Just kidding. Just kidding. Kudos to the mods for working so hard to make this place a place I've wanted to be for 20 years.

[elvis14]

elvis14 and I had a small skirmish last week. I explained my side, which we discussed on PM and he/she understood my point. All good.

duketaylor is being nice here. I anti-sporked him when I shouldn't have, he politely explained what I had misunderstood (curse you failing memory), and I apologized for the uncalled for flaming anti-spork. I was happy that he reached out.

[uh_no]

I can say it. Lucky to have met you and several others. Of course I preferred it when you were more about the beer OnTap and less about being nimble :-)

You must have me confused with someone else.....I work for HPE. It's such a crazy workplace, though! some of the interns we have coming in were in middle school when I started my career :D :D

[gep]

Pretend like your post is not a piece of anonymous internet drivel but, instead, is something you are saying to someone standing next to you in that neighborhood pub.

If it is a comment that might lead to that person socking you in the mouth, then probably don't post it.

-Jason "oh and one more thing... if you are someone who wanders around the pub constantly interrupting otherwise pleasant conversations to inject your own personal agenda, do't be surprised when the proprietors tell you you are bad for business and kick you out" Evans

This is it. Try to imagine saying your post to someone in a pub directly to him/her. If you wouldn't say it directly, don't post it either. (I think this was the main premise of DBR years ago too)


Is this still the internet?

This isn't 1963. Unfortunately, Civility, Common Courtesy and Mutual Respect have been on a steady decline.

I do appreciate and applaud the effort to hold this forum to a higher standard.

I have noticed that things tend to deteriorate when posters devolve into direct arguments with one another. I find such arguments to typically be tedious strings of efforts to prove who is the most knowledgeable, or clever, or best proofreader.

This is why DBR is the only place I come to on the internet for Duke, basketball, football, and sports in general, info.:cool: Many THANKS!!!

[Furniture]

I can do the pub thing...

Two pints of mild an a half of bitter please.

[TKG]

Two pints of mild an a half of bitter please.


Sums up my dating life as an undergrad......

[rsvman]

"The DBR," though, Bob? Like The Bronx? I always thought it was just "DBR," like Brooklyn.

Seriously, though, thanks for the reminder and for all your hard work, mods. I don't feel like I've been any part of the problem, but I'll still scrutinize my posts to make sure I don't become such. Overall I still think, for the most part, that "The DBR" is one of the nicer places on the interwebs. :-)

[left_hook_lacey]

This thread was needed.

I appreciate all the work the mods do and apologize to anyone that has ever been offended by anything I've said here. Doesn't change my opinion, but I apologize for not being a better follower of the posting decorum. It's only happened twice, but that's two times too many.

[chrishoke]

This thread was needed.

I appreciate all the work the mods do and apologize to anyone that has ever been offended by anything I've said here. Doesn't change my opinion, but I apologize for not being a better follower of the posting decorum. It's only happened twice, but that's two times too many.

Try changing your opinion from time to time. you might find you like it. :)

[OldPhiKap]

I apologize for comparing Ringo Starr to Woodrow Wilson. Clearly out of bounds.

Wilson sucked at the back-beat.

[Troublemaker]

I am Spartacus.

[weezie]

I am Spartacus!

[fraggler]

Things have taken a turn for the worse both online and in real life, especially in the last couple years where online communication has become the main social medium. When online, we are rarely our best selves due to the buffers that technology provides, and just like in any populace, we need rules and moderation to function well. I am not a generally active poster here, though I have lurked for years, but I really think the moderation needs to be tighter. In general, most people will be civil until someone riles them up. Trolls, hot take artists, new members who post way too much right off the bat, and generally loud and dumb people need to be curtailed or culled sooner rather than later. I am a more active member in a different forum for a different hobby and there are a lot of similarities in general population: generally well informed, amicably irreverent, and with a proclivity towards puns and bad jokes. It's a great "pub" to visit. The main difference is that the bouncers and bartenders there are much better/more proactive at sniffing out troublemakers. Even if the content of the message is OK, if the delivery or deliverer is agitating and drawing out the worst in people, then that person is either put on warning or outright banned. Sometimes it might not be 100% fair, but it is necessary if you have a certain feel to a place you want to maintain. If someone wanders into a pub and starts agitating the other patrons, they are usually asked to chill out or leave.

I think reminders like this thread to the general population to be their best selves is great - we all need it from time to time, but the people who really need the attitude adjustments aren't going to show up in this thread and hug it out. There are several individuals I would love to see moderated as I know they trigger me and have caused so much consternation to others that they stopped posting. It is on us as individuals to deal with things as they come and how we respond, but if moderators are asking us to step up our game, then it is fair to ask them to step up theirs. Do the owners and moderators have policy meetings? Is it time for a new one if this call to civility doesn't work?

I want to close my too long post by thanking the mods for the work that they do. I know it isn't easy to find the right balance. I also want to thank the few posters who still provide great information, analysis, and good, amicable discussion (and good beer recommendations).

[CDu]

I am not a generally active poster here, though I have lurked for years, but I really think the moderation needs to be tighter.

I am not a mod, but it is my understanding that it is a volunteer position. I'm not sure it is fair to expect them to do more than they already do for free. And I agree that they do a great job. At some point, we have to put the responsibility on ourselves as posters. Which is I think the point of Bob's post: the mods can only be asked to do so much; at some point, it's up us posters to be better human beings.

[sagegrouse]

I apologize for comparing Ringo Starr to Woodrow Wilson. Clearly out of bounds.

Wilson sucked at the back-beat.

New study shows Woodrow Wilson ranks 11th out of 45 among our presidents, according to a recent survey of "Greatness (https://sps.boisestate.edu/politicalscience/files/2018/02/Greatness.pdf)" polling members of the American Political Science Association. Olympic Fan's relentless attacks led to his fall from #10 four years ago.

[OldPhiKap]

New study shows Woodrow Wilson ranks 11th out of 45 among our presidents, according to a recent survey of "Greatness (https://sps.boisestate.edu/politicalscience/files/2018/02/Greatness.pdf)" polling members of the American Political Science Association. Olympic Fan's relentless attacks led to his fall from #10 four years ago.

Pomeroy says that Buchanan is underseeded. And you don't want to draw Fillmore in your bracket, mark it down.

As to fraggler's point, the Mods here are volunteers. Every board strikes a different balance. Like you, there is a poster or two that just gets my, er, goat. The "block poster" tool helps, although is far from perfect.

But all in all, I think the balance struck here is exceptional given what the internet is today. The Mods do a great job, even when they send me a little reminder now and again.

[PackMan97]

I will be on my best behavior, however Duke needs to do the world the common courtsey of beating Carolina next weekend. That will help build mutual respect.

[thedukelamere]

I am Spartacus!

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FirmRapidKentrosaurus-small.gif

[Jeffrey]

Olympic Fan's relentless attacks led to his fall from #10 four years ago.

He did the same to Robert E. Lee. Damn history buffs!

[fraggler]

I am not a mod, but it is my understanding that it is a volunteer position. I'm not sure it is fair to expect them to do more than they already do for free. And I agree that they do a great job. At some point, we have to put the responsibility on ourselves as posters. Which is I think the point of Bob's post: the mods can only be asked to do so much; at some point, it's up us posters to be better human beings.

I understand - most moderating posts are volunteer and it is definitely a difficult and most of the times thankless job. I was trying to point out that I believe that most people will behave properly on their own, and that there is usually just a very small population of posters that generate a lot of the bad behavior - either their own, or eliciting it from others. 80/20 rule type of thing. I think if more attention were spent on culling that small population, then less attention would be needed overall. I have seen it work elsewhere, but it has to be a policy type of thing and has to be embraced by the population.

A common refrain here is to attack the post, not the poster. I agree with it for the most part, as personal attacks aren't cool. But, I think we need to be able to call people out on their BS, too. If someone is being a jerk, overly negative/combative, trolling, spamming, beating a dead horse into the ground, etc. we need to be able to call them out on it without being it considered a personal attack. It is a way for the community to moderate if the moderators cannot. I have seen instances where threads get out of hand, usually caused by only one or two individuals where the moderators clear out posts reacting to the instigators instead of focusing on the instigators themselves. I know it takes more effort to really address who is causing the problems, and it can get tricky from a policy perspective to define what is allowable and what its not, but if good members leave because trolls are left to their own devices, then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

I love DBR. It was the only place I found that I could actually enjoy discussing Duke basketball. This thread exists because things are obviously deteriorating. I don't want that to happen, so I am trying to push the discussion past "Please behave (which really should be enough)."

[uh_no]

I really think the moderation needs to be tighter.

use the report function and the flame button. I've found the mods very responsive, and some posters have responded very positively to flames.

Also, if it becomes unbearable, there is a "hide poster" option.

[Kfanarmy]

Things have taken a turn for the worse both online and in real life, especially in the last couple years where online communication has become the main social medium. When online, we are rarely our best selves due to the buffers that technology provides, and just like in any populace, we need rules and moderation to function well. I am not a generally active poster here, though I have lurked for years, but I really think the moderation needs to be tighter. In general, most people will be civil until someone riles them up. Trolls, hot take artists, new members who post way too much right off the bat, and generally loud and dumb people need to be curtailed or culled sooner rather than later. I am a more active member in a different forum for a different hobby and there are a lot of similarities in general population: generally well informed, amicably irreverent, and with a proclivity towards puns and bad jokes. It's a great "pub" to visit. The main difference is that the bouncers and bartenders there are much better/more proactive at sniffing out troublemakers. Even if the content of the message is OK, if the delivery or deliverer is agitating and drawing out the worst in people, then that person is either put on warning or outright banned. Sometimes it might not be 100% fair, but it is necessary if you have a certain feel to a place you want to maintain. If someone wanders into a pub and starts agitating the other patrons, they are usually asked to chill out or leave.

I think reminders like this thread to the general population to be their best selves is great - we all need it from time to time, but the people who really need the attitude adjustments aren't going to show up in this thread and hug it out. There are several individuals I would love to see moderated as I know they trigger me and have caused so much consternation to others that they stopped posting. It is on us as individuals to deal with things as they come and how we respond, but if moderators are asking us to step up our game, then it is fair to ask them to step up theirs. Do the owners and moderators have policy meetings? Is it time for a new one if this call to civility doesn't work?

I want to close my too long post by thanking the mods for the work that they do. I know it isn't easy to find the right balance. I also want to thank the few posters who still provide great information, analysis, and good, amicable discussion (and good beer recommendations).

Wow. This says an awful lot. Perhaps more than intended?

[CDu]

A common refrain here is to attack the post, not the poster. I agree with it for the most part, as personal attacks aren't cool. But, I think we need to be able to call people out on their BS, too. If someone is being a jerk, overly negative/combative, trolling, spamming, beating a dead horse into the ground, etc. we need to be able to call them out on it without being it considered a personal attack. It is a way for the community to moderate if the moderators cannot. I have seen instances where threads get out of hand, usually caused by only one or two individuals where the moderators clear out posts reacting to the instigators instead of focusing on the instigators themselves. I know it takes more effort to really address who is causing the problems, and it can get tricky from a policy perspective to define what is allowable and what its not, but if good members leave because trolls are left to their own devices, then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

A few things:
1. There are ways to call out a poster who is being a jerk. Just do it privately via the flames.
2. I don't think the moderators just clear out the posts when things go astray. I think they also give infractions or warnings privately to those posters. The board doesn't hear about it because frankly, they don't need to hear about it. And if the problems with said poster(s) persist, the infractions get greater.

[rsvman]

... The main difference is that the bouncers and bartenders there are much better/more proactive at sniffing out troublemakers. ...

See, here's an example of the problem. There you go, brazenly calling out individual posters in a thread that urges us not to call out individual posters! Sheesh! ....Oh, wait.......the "T" wasn't capitalized?!?




.......Never mind....................

[fraggler]

See, here's an example of the problem. There you go, brazenly calling out individual posters in a thread that urges us not to call out individual posters! Sheesh! ...Oh, wait....the "T" wasn't capitalized?!?




....Never mind.........

:) I was about to point out that capital T Troublemaker was cool, but I was standing on the soapbox in my office, too righteous to remember my own sense of humor.

[JasonEvans]

A few things:
1. There are ways to call out a poster who is being a jerk. Just do it privately via the flames.
2. I don't think the moderators just clear out the posts when things go astray. I think they also give infractions or warnings privately to those posters. The board doesn't hear about it because frankly, they don't need to hear about it. And if the problems with said poster(s) persist, the infractions get greater.

I would add that when you see a poster who is being a jerk, feel free to hit the "report post" button so the mod team is made aware of the troublesome poster. Reputation points (flames or pitchforks) and report post are the best way to deal with a problem, not taking matters into your own hands.

As for item #2 above, this is correct. For the most part we do not openly talk about infractions that are handed out. We sometimes talk about having to delete posts, general as a warning or to make the community aware of a thread that perhaps reads unnaturally because of the extracted content. But, bottom line, an infraction is regarded as being something private between the offending poster and the moderators. The main exception is when we inform someone who has been wronged that the offending party has been punished.

Anyway, I want to thank all the folks who have thanked us moderators. While our job is often a major pain in the rear, ya'll make it a lot less of a pain for the most part.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZIMoQInAXrU/Vow8EvD9ndI/AAAAAAAAMDM/9NLhchQmb4U/s1600/moderator_zps4440f0cc.png

-Jason "this is a truly remarkable community. Look around at other sports bulletin boards and you will feel blessed to be a part of it" Evans

[Jeffrey]

-Jason "this is a truly remarkable community. Look around at other sports bulletin boards and you will feel blessed to be a part of it" Evans

Strongly agree! IMO, there is not a close second.

[devildeac]

Things have taken a turn for the worse both online and in real life, especially in the last couple years where online communication has become the main social medium. When online, we are rarely our best selves due to the buffers that technology provides, and just like in any populace, we need rules and moderation to function well. I am not a generally active poster here, though I have lurked for years, but I really think the moderation needs to be tighter. In general, most people will be civil until someone riles them up. Trolls, hot take artists, new members who post way too much right off the bat, and generally loud and dumb people need to be curtailed or culled sooner rather than later. I am a more active member in a different forum for a different hobby and there are a lot of similarities in general population: generally well informed, amicably irreverent, and with a proclivity towards puns and bad jokes. It's a great "pub" to visit. The main difference is that the bouncers and bartenders there are much better/more proactive at sniffing out troublemakers. Even if the content of the message is OK, if the delivery or deliverer is agitating and drawing out the worst in people, then that person is either put on warning or outright banned. Sometimes it might not be 100% fair, but it is necessary if you have a certain feel to a place you want to maintain. If someone wanders into a pub and starts agitating the other patrons, they are usually asked to chill out or leave.

I think reminders like this thread to the general population to be their best selves is great - we all need it from time to time, but the people who really need the attitude adjustments aren't going to show up in this thread and hug it out. There are several individuals I would love to see moderated as I know they trigger me and have caused so much consternation to others that they stopped posting. It is on us as individuals to deal with things as they come and how we respond, but if moderators are asking us to step up our game, then it is fair to ask them to step up theirs. Do the owners and moderators have policy meetings? Is it time for a new one if this call to civility doesn't work?

I want to close my too long post by thanking the mods for the work that they do. I know it isn't easy to find the right balance. I also want to thank the few posters who still provide great information, analysis, and good, amicable discussion (and good beer recommendations).

Nicely stated, plus yet another poster still managed to work the bolded into their response. Next round is on me (or fuse, or Tripping William or mattman or luburch or whoever else pulls out their VISA or MC. Hey, where's ricks68 been?). Virtually, of course. :o;)

[left_hook_lacey]

Try changing your opinion from time to time. you might find you like it. :)

I have. It was my NEW opinion that got me in trouble. :D

[fraggler]

I would add that when you see a poster who is being a jerk, feel free to hit the "report post" button so the mod team is made aware of the troublesome poster. Reputation points (flames or pitchforks) and report post are the best way to deal with a problem, not taking matters into your own hands.

As for item #2 above, this is correct. For the most part we do not openly talk about infractions that are handed out. We sometimes talk about having to delete posts, general as a warning or to make the community aware of a thread that perhaps reads unnaturally because of the extracted content. But, bottom line, an infraction is regarded as being something private between the offending poster and the moderators. The main exception is when we inform someone who has been wronged that the offending party has been punished.

Anyway, I want to thank all the folks who have thanked us moderators. While our job is often a major pain in the rear, ya'll make it a lot less of a pain for the most part.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZIMoQInAXrU/Vow8EvD9ndI/AAAAAAAAMDM/9NLhchQmb4U/s1600/moderator_zps4440f0cc.png

-Jason "this is a truly remarkable community. Look around at other sports bulletin boards and you will feel blessed to be a part of it" Evans
All fair and acknowledged, Jason and CDu - I appreciate your responses. I was only riled up because I agree that this is one of the best communities online - the best for Duke basketball. I have had to abandon online communities before because they deteriorated along these lines and really don't want that to happen here. This discussion/venting has been great for me and I thank everyone for putting up with it.

[scottdude8]

Just wanted to add my voice to the huge chorus of "Amen"s that are flooding this post. Despite being an obsessive sports fan I've never been one to participate in forum discussions except for here, and that's because of the community atmosphere that's engendered by this board. This has been an unusual season which has led to some heated debates, which are to be expected. I think we all just need to take a step back and make sure that debates remain civil and rational, and never devolve into personal attacks.

Go DBR, and Go Duke!

[OldPhiKap]

I think fraggler makes a good point that self-policing is also one of the things that has distinguished DBR. I guess the middle ground is that there are tactful ways to do that without saying "you're being an idiot." (Not that I have ever seen fraggler do that -- not what I am trying to convey).

A troll is always gonna get called a troll in real time. There are clever ways to do it, and there are more blunt ways. I think Bob is telling us to cut the blunt attacks on someone directly, and instead point out why the content of the troll post is garbage. At least, that's my takeaway.

[duke74]

Reminds me of this. Be nice.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTh5JzRziHE&feature=youtu.be

[Atldukie79]

I am not a mod, but it is my understanding that it is a volunteer position. I'm not sure it is fair to expect them to do more than they already do for free. And I agree that they do a great job. At some point, we have to put the responsibility on ourselves as posters. Which is I think the point of Bob's post: the mods can only be asked to do so much; at some point, it's up us posters to be better human beings.

"Are you a mod or a rocker?"
Since you are not a mod, perhaps you are a mocker? (Beatles reference....you either get it or you don't!)

[Henderson]

While the DBR welcomes discussion and robust debate, there is no place here for accusations, personal attacks, or snarky retorts.

There are different styles of debating issues, right? And people come at debate differently on different days in different moods, right?

So why exalt the mashed potatoes style here by rule and say, "you must debate this way and only this way, calculate not to risk offending, etc. etc."?

I think there is a risk of missing the piquant side of debate here. "Robust" debate stands risk of being strangled. If you think about the "neighborhood pub" analogy, a lot of that is snarky. The witty repartee. Give and take. Grown ups whose shorts don't get soiled by the normal cut and thrust of dialogue.

If a person is going to participate in discussion in the public sphere, he or she should be able to take a harsh barb now and then. If not, maybe he needs a new, more supportive hobby. Crochet parties are said to be friendly and non-confrontational. They have tea there. With warm milk. Very nice.

I'm happy to see moderators saying this or that is over the top and not allowed. But this idea of bowling with bumpers seems childish, stifling certain styles of debate in favor of others.

Edited to add:

With due respect etc. etc.

[CameronBornAndBred]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZIMoQInAXrU/Vow8EvD9ndI/AAAAAAAAMDM/9NLhchQmb4U/s1600/moderator_zps4440f0cc.png


8089

FIFY :cool:

[duke74]

"Are you a mod or a rocker?"
Since you are not a mod, perhaps you are a mocker? (Beatles reference...you either get it or you don't!)

Carnaby Street lives! (As does Eddie).

[fraggler]

8089

FIFY :cool:

Need a few craft brews around the pie.

[CDu]

I think there is a risk of missing the piquant side of debate here. "Robust" debate stands risk of being strangled. If you think about the "neighborhood pub" analogy, a lot of that is snarky. The witty repartee. Give and take. Grown ups whose shorts don't get soiled by the normal cut and thrust of dialogue.

I'm happy to see moderators saying this or that is over the top and not allowed. But this idea of bowling with bumpers seems childish, stifling certain styles of debate in favor of others.

As this board is not an open democracy, I doubt you're going to get far with this argument. Bob is stating the expectations that the owners of this site have for participants. You may feel that the guidelines are too strict. If so, there are other boards where one can utilize more attacking style of debate. The owners and the mods don't want that here. And if that is a big problem for you, this board might not be the place for you.

And that's not a suggestion by me for you to leave (far from it). Just pointing out that the rules are the rules. We come here voluntarily. And the only price we pay for our participation is that we follow the rules of the folks that run this site. If one doesn't like those rules, one doesn't have to participate.

[BD80]

There are different styles of debating issues, right? And people come at debate differently on different days in different moods, right?

So why exalt the mashed potatoes style here by rule and say, "you must debate this way and only this way, calculate not to risk offending, etc. etc."?

I think there is a risk of missing the piquant side of debate here. "Robust" debate stands risk of being strangled. If you think about the "neighborhood pub" analogy, a lot of that is snarky. The witty repartee. Give and take. Grown ups whose shorts don't get soiled by the normal cut and thrust of dialogue.

If a person is going to participate in discussion in the public sphere, he or she should be able to take a harsh barb now and then. If not, maybe he needs a new, more supportive hobby.

I'm happy to see moderators saying this or that is over the top and not allowed. But this idea of bowling with bumpers seems childish, stifling certain styles of debate in favor of others.

Problem is, each of us considers their posts to be Shakespearean or better in stature, when reality is closer to Larry the Cable Guy.

"Debate" does not contemplate witty repartee. While I enjoy witticisms more than most, the issue is that they are too often considered ad hominem attacks. If there is truly wit underlying the response, there should be little problem in ensuring that repartee is not unduly barbed.

My issue is the lack of an adequate sarcasm emoji. Several years ago I was hit with an infraction for suggesting that the game had passed Coach K by and that he should resign. I thought it was clear that I was sarcastically skewering those who were complaining about Coach K's substitution patterns or recruiting. Boy would that sarcasm emoji have been useful ....

[devildeac]

Problem is, each of us considers their posts to be Shakespearean or better in stature, when reality is closer to Larry the Cable Guy.

"Debate" does not contemplate witty repartee. While I enjoy witticisms more than most, the issue is that they are too often considered ad hominem attacks. If there is truly wit underlying the response, there should be little problem in ensuring that repartee is not unduly barbed.

My issue is the lack of an adequate sarcasm emoji. Several years ago I was hit with an infraction for suggesting that the game had passed Coach K by and that he should resign. I thought it was clear that I was sarcastically skewering those who were complaining about Coach K's substitution patterns or recruiting. Boy would that sarcasm emoji have been useful ...

:rolleyes: is labeled as "Rolls Eyes (Sarcastic)" when you hover over it. I use it liberally, but not in the PPB sense :rolleyes:.

(prolly saved me a few dings over the years)

[Stray Gator]

There are different styles of debating issues, right? And people come at debate differently on different days in different moods, right?

So why exalt the mashed potatoes style here by rule and say, "you must debate this way and only this way, calculate not to risk offending, etc. etc."?

I think there is a risk of missing the piquant side of debate here. "Robust" debate stands risk of being strangled. If you think about the "neighborhood pub" analogy, a lot of that is snarky. The witty repartee. Give and take. Grown ups whose shorts don't get soiled by the normal cut and thrust of dialogue.

If a person is going to participate in discussion in the public sphere, he or she should be able to take a harsh barb now and then. If not, maybe he needs a new, more supportive hobby. Crochet parties are said to be friendly and non-confrontational. They have tea there. With warm milk. Very nice.

I'm happy to see moderators saying this or that is over the top and not allowed. But this idea of bowling with bumpers seems childish, stifling certain styles of debate in favor of others.

Edited to add:

With due respect etc. etc.

Responding to this message only for myself, without purporting to speak for any other moderators, I would say that "witty repartee" has always been a welcome feature of the DBR forums, but "harsh barbs" are not. And there's no doubt in my mind that any person of ordinary intelligence can distinguish between the two. You say that anyone who participates in a public discussion "should be able to take a harsh barb now and then," but "[i]f not, maybe he needs a new, more supportive hobby." That may be the prevailing attitude on other message boards, where posters view the dialogue not as an opportunity for friendly exchanges, but as an excuse to engage in "cut and thrust" tactics; and where posters treat snarky retorts not as a thinly veiled attempt to evade or deflect another's legitimate point by resorting to personal offense, but as a means of measuring cheap shots or scoring points in some sort of competition to see who can inflict the most injurious slams against other participants.

I'd like to think that the DBR differs from those other message boards. Here, I hope that we try to promote and maintain a higher standard of conduct -- one that is, as the title of this thread aptly summarizes, founded on civility, common courtesy, and mutual respect. While you suggest that "[g]rown ups whose shorts don't get soiled by the normal cut and thrust of dialogue" should refrain from participating in public discussions, I submit that the opposite is true: People who are mature and self-confident are capable of engaging others in discussions that involve exchanges of information, and even debates over differing opinions, in a spirit of good humor and mutual respect, without finding it necessary to ridicule or insult the other person. In fact, those are the people whose posts I find most enlightening and entertaining, because they tend to be more genuinely interested in the subject of the discussion than in drawing attention to themselves. Some of the best and most humorous regular posters who ever populated the DBR forums were people like that who eventually left, having grown weary of dealing with interactions that were increasingly punctuated with "harsh barbs" and the "cut and thrust" dialogue that you describe as "normal." It's not that they couldn't take the more "piquant" repartee; they simply didn't need it, and didn't want to waste their time and energy fighting through it.

In my opinion, we've lost more than enough of the posters who appreciate and enjoy the kind of "neighborhood pub" atmosphere that the DBR offers. Perhaps instead of encouraging members of the DBR community who are comfortable with this culture of cordiality to seek out a "crochet party," as you suggest, those posters who find it too staid and stuffy for their liking here might prefer to find another forum in which the rules are less restrictive and what you describe as "normal" behavior is considered appropriate.

[rsvman]

There are different styles of debating issues, right? And people come at debate differently on different days in different moods, right?

So why exalt the mashed potatoes style here by rule and say, "you must debate this way and only this way, calculate not to risk offending, etc. etc."?

I think there is a risk of missing the piquant side of debate here. "Robust" debate stands risk of being strangled. If you think about the "neighborhood pub" analogy, a lot of that is snarky. The witty repartee. Give and take. Grown ups whose shorts don't get soiled by the normal cut and thrust of dialogue.

If a person is going to participate in discussion in the public sphere, he or she should be able to take a harsh barb now and then. If not, maybe he needs a new, more supportive hobby. Crochet parties are said to be friendly and non-confrontational. They have tea there. With warm milk. Very nice.

I'm happy to see moderators saying this or that is over the top and not allowed. But this idea of bowling with bumpers seems childish, stifling certain styles of debate in favor of others.

Edited to add:

With due respect etc. etc.

I think you are slightly missing the point. I think it is OK to criticize the crux of somebody's argument and to make your case as to why your point of view is better/more correct/blessed by God, or whatever. But criticizing the information in a post is not the same as criticizing the poster.

To simplify it a great deal, it is one thing to say, "that idea has no merit," and it is another entirely to say "you have no merit." The mods can correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are not saying that you can't argue the substance of a post, and even argue it with vigor.

[Jeffrey]

Some posters want the game called tighter and some softer. I've been called for more than my share of fouls and every one was well deserved and appropriate. IMO, the game is always called fair and reasonable.

Every now and then the game gets rough. Instead of just calling a bunch of flagrants, the zebras are warning us in advance. IMO, another example of the game being always called fair and reasonable.

[Henderson]

Come on guys. I say man up. If folks can't take hard banter, go join the Hello Kitty forum.

[uh_no]

Come on guys. I say man up. If folks can't take hard banter, go join the Hello Kitty forum.

oh dear dear dear...

[BD80]

Come on guys. I say man up. If folks can't take hard banter, go join the Hello Kitty forum.

Same problem finding an adequate sarcasm emoji?

[ChillinDuke]

For whatever it's worth - err - I'll add my two pennies that this place rocks. I'll do my part to keep things respectful.

- Chillin

[BandAlum83]

Come on guys. I say man up. If folks can't take hard banter, go join the Hello Kitty forum.

NO WAY!!!!!

The cat fights over there are epic. One can get seriously injured.

[fidel]

"Are you a mod or a rocker?"
Since you are not a mod, perhaps you are a mocker? (Beatles reference...you either get it or you don't!)

Quadrophenia, no?

Anyway well-timed reminder and no more bad puns.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Quadrophenia, no?

Anyway well-timed reminder and no more bad puns.

What's a "bad pun?"

[-jk]

Come on guys. I say man up. If folks can't take hard banter, go join the Hello Kitty forum.

We very clearly draw a few lines (check the decorum & posting guidelines (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21833-Decorum-amp-Posting-Guidelines-(Please-read-before-posting!)) sticky for details if you're unfamiliar with them), and there's a lot of room within those lines.

We do ask everyone to play nicely and stay within the lines. If you find our space too confining, there are plenty of places that'll welcome you - or at least let you play (alas, a lot of them aren't terribly welcoming).

Our mod team works hard to keep this a welcoming place where voices - new and old - can be heard and treated respectfully.

thanks,

-jk

[OldPhiKap]

What's a "bad pun?"

Redundant?

[Jeffrey]

If you find our space too confining, there are plenty of places that'll welcome you -

But, the players don't have game, the zebras swallowed their whistles, and the cheerleaders are Russian bots.

[tfk53]

We very clearly draw a few lines (check the decorum & posting guidelines (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21833-Decorum-amp-Posting-Guidelines-(Please-read-before-posting!)) sticky for details if you're unfamiliar with them), and there's a lot of room within those lines.

We do ask everyone to play nicely and stay within the lines. If you find our space too confining, there are plenty of places that'll welcome you - or at least let you play (alas, a lot of them aren't terribly welcoming).

Our mod team works hard to keep this a welcoming place where voices - new and old - can be heard and treated respectfully.

thanks,

-jk

As an infrequent poster but longtime lurker, I read much of what is posted as DBR is my initial morning read ( I do limit time on the beer thread as it makes me way too thirsty). The breadth of basketball knowledge, the articulate postings, the humor and the puns all keep me engaged each day. I enjoy the trading of words and thoughts between posters that are well thought out and touched with wit without being hurtful. Opinions can be shared, discussed, debated - all without personal attacks. Pause for a moment before hitting send. When the line is crossed - and it will be crossed at times in any community - fess up, apologize and learn.
This is indeed a wonderful community - one I feel blessed to be a small part of - and I feel I know many through their writings, even without ever meeting. None of us want to lose this special place and atmosphere. My hat is off to the mods for keeping it that way. Thank you very much

[OldPhiKap]

As an infrequent poster but longtime lurker, I read much of what is posted as DBR is my initial morning read ( I do limit time on the beer thread as it makes me way too thirsty). The breadth of basketball knowledge, the articulate postings, the humor and the puns all keep me engaged each day. I enjoy the trading of words and thoughts between posters that are well thought out and touched with wit without being hurtful. Opinions can be shared, discussed, debated - all without personal attacks. Pause for a moment before hitting send. When the line is crossed - and it will be crossed at times in any community - fess up, apologize and learn.
This is indeed a wonderful community - one I feel blessed to be a small part of - and I feel I know many through their writings, even without ever meeting. None of us want to lose this special place and atmosphere. My hat is off to the mods for keeping it that way. Thank you very much

With that quality of post, you should post more. Well-stated.

[Tripping William]

As an infrequent poster but longtime lurker, I read much of what is posted as DBR is my initial morning read ( I do limit time on the beer thread as it makes me way too thirsty).

Easily solved: Save your visits to Ymmm, Beer for the afternoon. :o

Agree (as usual) with OPK’s comments, BTW. We look forward to more posts from you.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I think you are slightly missing the point. I think it is OK to criticize the crux of somebody's argument and to make your case as to why your point of view is better/more correct/blessed by God, or whatever. But criticizing the information in a post is not the same as criticizing the poster.

To simplify it a great deal, it is one thing to say, "that idea has no merit," and it is another entirely to say "you have no merit." The mods can correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are not saying that you can't argue the substance of a post, and even argue it with vigor.

I was privately disciplined recently for doing just that: Criticizing the accuracy of a poster’s comparison, not the poster themselves.

In fairness, the poster may have got a bit personal in response to my criticism, which may have blurred the lines as to what my original intent was, but make no mistake, my criticism was never disrespectful, uncivil, or discourteous in any way.

At the end of the day, it’s all a matter of opinion and judgement, and I respect the principles the mods here are trying to uphold.

[mgtr]

I have been on this board for 11 years, and I have learned a lot -- not just about Duke basketball, and not just about basketball. Thanks for running a civilized place.

[BD80]

I have been on this board for 11 years, and I have learned a lot -- not just about Duke basketball, and not just about basketball. Thanks for running a civilized place.

Today I learned what an ungulate is ...

I probably learned it before, and in two weeks I'll be able to learn it again.

[tfk53]

Easily solved: Save your visits to Ymmm, Beer for the afternoon. :o
.

An excellent solution, TW! Will put it into practice tomorrow - twas a Malbec night tonight.

[Tripping William]

An excellent solution, TW! Will put it into practice tomorrow - twas a Malbec night tonight.

From Mendoza, I hope. :cool:

[OldPhiKap]

From Mendoza, I hope. :cool:

Chile and Argentina have some incredible Malbecs.

There is a “Ymm, wine” thread somewhere I think but we all got too far in our cups to maintain.

[elvis14]

I have been on this board for 11 years, and I have learned a lot -- not just about Duke basketball, and not just about basketball. Thanks for running a civilized place.

Nice, even the newbies are chiming in...and politely at that!

[devildeac]

As an infrequent poster but longtime lurker, I read much of what is posted as DBR is my initial morning read ( I do limit time on the beer thread as it makes me way too thirsty). The breadth of basketball knowledge, the articulate postings, the humor and the puns all keep me engaged each day. I enjoy the trading of words and thoughts between posters that are well thought out and touched with wit without being hurtful. Opinions can be shared, discussed, debated - all without personal attacks. Pause for a moment before hitting send. When the line is crossed - and it will be crossed at times in any community - fess up, apologize and learn.
This is indeed a wonderful community - one I feel blessed to be a small part of - and I feel I know many through their writings, even without ever meeting. None of us want to lose this special place and atmosphere. My hat is off to the mods for keeping it that way. Thank you very much

Dang, another beer reference. Just remember, it's not just for breakfast anymore. :o

Well-stated post. Please join in more discussions (and let us know every once in a while what's in your pint glass ;)).

[NYBri]

I learned quite a while ago that it’s best for me to avoid the in game threads and the chat. I have cut down significantly on being flagged with infractions. DBR pre and post game threads are where I mainly live and learn a thing or twelve. :cool:

[OldPhiKap]

I learned quite a while ago that it’s best for me to avoid the in game threads and the chat. I have cut down significantly on being flagged with infractions. DBR pre and post game threads are where I mainly live and learn a thing or twelve. :cool:

Yeah, I avoid in-game chat and threads as well for the most part here. It is too easy to vent frustration in a nonconstructive way. And the twerping really bugs me.

[Tripping William]

. . . . (and let us know every once in a while what's in your pint glass ;)).

Probably two pints of Sam Adams, and he's working on three . . . . . :p