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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 66, Clemson 57 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-18-2018, 02:07 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

curtis325
02-18-2018, 02:08 PM
9-0 run to win it. Nice!

22JumpShots
02-18-2018, 02:08 PM
Great needed win! 2nd place!

dukelifer
02-18-2018, 02:09 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Finished strong- that bodes well. Just followed on my phone and they got it done. Team is improving on the mental side of the game. You have to end well and today they did.

UrinalCake
02-18-2018, 02:09 PM
Big exhale. Team looked gassed from the 5 minute mark on. Happy to come away with the win. Zone defense loooked great, somewhat counterintuitively we are so much more aggressive in the zone and can really go after steals. Offensively we are not the same without Marvin.

Duke95
02-18-2018, 02:10 PM
Responded to the Clemson run with a 9-0 run to close it out. Good poise. The FTs were huge, as was that Carter move.

robed deity
02-18-2018, 02:10 PM
Good win.Guys stepped up at the end. I don't really get all the Duval criticism today. Thought he made several plays, both on O and D. Sure, there were a few bad ones, but the good far outweighed the bad today IMO.

proelitedota
02-18-2018, 02:12 PM
Winning the last two minutes is better than stall balling our way to a win. GREAT practice for sweet-sixteen and onwards.

MartyClark
02-18-2018, 02:12 PM
Whew. Consistently good effort with some mistakes thrown in .

Grayson had a great 1st half. He seemed to defer again in the 2nd but Carter came on big.

Good win. Bring on Louisville on Wednesday.

ipatent
02-18-2018, 02:12 PM
Big win. Scrappy game by both teams. Trent made up for missing the front end by hitting all three the next time he went to the line, it was the key play of the game.

JBDuke
02-18-2018, 02:12 PM
Good win.Guys stepped up at the end. I don't really get all the Duval criticism today. Thought he made several plays, both on O and D. Sure, there were a few bad ones, but the good far outweighed the bad today IMO.

Chat was actually pretty positive about Duval today, and I agree. He mostly made good decisions. He was active and effective on D, and he made shots when we needed them.

Troublemaker
02-18-2018, 02:13 PM
Very good win. We wouldn't have been capable of winning a road game like this two weeks ago, a game in which the opposing defense outplayed our offense. But "New Duke" (zone + return of Grayson + healthy Javin & Marques) can win an ugly defensive battle in a hostile atmosphere.

Now, it's just about getting Bagley back and having him adjust to "New Duke" (instead of the other way around).

WHOneedsSOX
02-18-2018, 02:14 PM
Chat was actually pretty positive about Duval today, and I agree. He mostly made good decisions. He was active and effective on D, and he made shots when we needed them.

Duval played well. Looks like Coach K is trying to get the ball out of his hands more though.

karmacoma
02-18-2018, 02:15 PM
I'll admit, I flew off the handle during Clemson's 10-0 run. But a great two minutes to right the ship and get the win. It obviously wasn't always pretty, but there were signs of some real toughness by our guys. 3-0 without Bags, which also shows a nice ability to overcome adversity.

Rich
02-18-2018, 02:15 PM
Chat was actually pretty positive about Duval today, and I agree. He mostly made good decisions. He was active and effective on D, and he made shots when we needed them.

I love his ability to get to the rim. Would love it more if he could finish a few of those or dump them off to a big. Sometimes he tries to get them to a big but the pass is down around the knees and can't be handled.

MrPoon
02-18-2018, 02:16 PM
Strange game. But a good win.
Long stretches where the offense went quiet. That long five min near the half nearly cost us as we slowed things down. The foul on Trentís 3 may have changed the game.
Slow pace, grind it out.
With the few stretches of poor rebounding and quiet offense it still highlights how Bagley would have really impressed this game. Javin played one of his better games but Bagís offense and rebounding would have helped.
I wish would could have Grayson and Carter playing well at the same time. It seems like it was one or the other. But a road win against #11 without possibly the best college player in the country? Yeah, Iíll take that. Plus K said he hates Sunday games so even better. Three of the final four are at home. Go DUKE.

chrishoke
02-18-2018, 02:16 PM
Big win. Scrappy game by both teams. Trent made up for missing the front end by hitting all three the next time he went to the line, it was the key play of the game.
That stupid Clemson foul was the big play of the game.. We were reeling.

Bluedevil114
02-18-2018, 02:17 PM
What a game. Duke looked gassed at the 4:15 mark. Duval had a great game on both sides. Positive minutes for Bolden and White. A huge road win in a hostile environment. Grayson was the best in the first half with Carter taking over the second half.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-18-2018, 02:18 PM
Very good win. We wouldn't have been capable of winning a road game like this two weeks ago, a game in which the opposing defense outplayed our offense. But "New Duke" (zone + return of Grayson + healthy Javin & Marques) can win an ugly defensive battle in a hostile atmosphere.

Now, it's just about getting Bagley back and having him adjust to "New Duke" (instead of the other way around).

While we struggled with Kyrieís return in Ď11, Boozer was able to adjust nicely in 2001 - Letís pray Bagley can do the same.

As far as the game goes - H-U-G-E win! We control our own destiny for the 2 seed in the ACCT and, theoretically, a #1 seed in the NCAAT.

WillJ
02-18-2018, 02:18 PM
That stupid Clemson foul was the big play of the game.. We were reeling.

If was a Clemson fan, that foul would have made me scream.

WHOneedsSOX
02-18-2018, 02:18 PM
While we struggled with Kyrieís return in Ď11, Boozer was able to adjust nicely in 2001 - Letís pray Bagley can do the same.

As far as the game goes - H-U-G-E win! We control our own destiny for the 2 seed in the ACCT and, theoretically, a #1 seed in the NCAAT.
Only thing I'm worried about with Bagley is his conditioning.

weezie
02-18-2018, 02:20 PM
Big exhale. Team looked gassed from the 5 minute mark on...

All that press. K demanded and the team delivered.

MrPoon
02-18-2018, 02:21 PM
Whew. Consistently good effort with some mistakes thrown in .

Grayson had a great 1st half. He seemed to defer again in the 2nd but Carter came on big.

Good win. Bring on Louisville on Wednesday.

Good point. Iíve been frustrated about the lack of effort for a full game and today we saw it and needed it. The long five min stretch in the 2nd half without a bucket was some poor sets, over dribbling until late in the clock and a few misses, but not lack of hustle or effort. Nice work boys!

Because of Clemsonís three pt shooting offense Javin was needed more than Bolden but I thought he made the most of his mins too. Trent was off a bit this game or we open this up a lot sooner.

dragoneye776
02-18-2018, 02:24 PM
I wonder where we'll be ranked tomorrow considering that out of the 11 teams above us, 8 of them lost this weekend.

Devilwin
02-18-2018, 02:26 PM
Missed most of the first half. Again, hung on when it counted. Not a good second half by Grayson at all, but heck, he has done a ton for this team over the last four years..

MrPoon
02-18-2018, 02:27 PM
I wonder where we'll be ranked tomorrow considering that out of the 11 teams above us, 8 of them lost this weekend.

Agreed and a few lost more than once. And at least one, Kansas, should have lost if it wasnít for ...er... favorable officiating.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 02:28 PM
9-0 run to win it. Nice!

True, but I"m concerned about the 0-10 run that tied it at 57......

ncexnyc
02-18-2018, 02:28 PM
That was some turnaround. We appeared to be heading for a massive choke job, only to make the heady plays to close things out.

Clemson's play at the end reminded me of a couple of our losses. They got back into a position to win and had momentum on their side only to fritter away the opportunity. It seemed like when they tied, they felt that they had won the game.

I was really happy with Trevon's play today. And that's saying a lot as I'm not one of his biggest fans. His play on the defensive side of the ball set the tone and he was steady on the offensive end as well.

Javin and Bolden continue to provide valuable minutes, but MBIII's absence is clearly obvious on the offensive end as neither player is a threat from the outside.

sagegrouse
02-18-2018, 02:30 PM
Winning the last two minutes is better than stall balling our way to a win. GREAT practice for sweet-sixteen and onwards.


Good point. Iíve been frustrated about the lack of effort for a full game and today we saw it and needed it. The long five min stretch in the 2nd half without a bucket was some poor sets, over dribbling until late in the clock and a few misses, but not lack of hustle or effort. Nice work boys!

Because of Clemsonís three pt shooting offense Javin was needed more than Bolden but I thought he made the most of his mins too. Trent was off a bit this game or we open this up a lot sooner.

While Duke was tired, I thought we saw a bit too much of the "prevent victory offense," where we delay the offense until 10-15 seconds left.

And, by the way, what's wrong with the rims at Littlejohn, or is it something else? Both teams missed a boatload of shots within two feet of the basket. Both defenses were fighting hard, but still....

Bob Green
02-18-2018, 02:30 PM
Not a good second half by Grayson at all..

I disagree. Grayson Allen made multiple good defensive plays in the 2nd half plus he handled the ball against the Clemson press. There is more to basketball than scoring.

Coballs
02-18-2018, 02:32 PM
Without Mitchell in their lineup, we were able press much more than we have most of the season and it paid off with a bunch of forced turnovers

rsvman
02-18-2018, 02:34 PM
True, but I"m concerned about the 0-10 run that tied it at 57...

Thanks for leaving the room. We owe the win to you, apparently.

Saratoga2
02-18-2018, 02:38 PM
A good win aganst a ranked team on their home court. While they were missing a couple of key players, I thought their defense was very tough all day and seldom gave us easy shots. They also had a strong rebounder in the middle. Grayson had an excellent first half and Carter came through in the second. Good contributions from Duval with Trent a little off his game. Our zone was fairly good and our press harried them enough to help us win the game.

Perhaps our weakest area was losing their shooter for wide open shots, particularly in the first half. We have to stop losing guys for wide open shots as they can wind up being the difference in tight games against excellent opponents. Some teaching moments for coach K.

MBIII should be back soon and we shall see if he reintegrates smoothly. I think he will and make us a tough beat by any team.

simplyluvin
02-18-2018, 02:40 PM
Really solid win. Felt that there were two key points in the game:1) the stretch at the 5 minute mark where we had two offensive rebounds, essentially three straight possessions, and burned nearly a minute and a half off the clock, and 2) the foul on Trent for 3 was such a turning point after they tied it. Wendellís and 1 was the back breaker.

Strong D in the second half although they missed a bunch they normally might make. Not having their PG likely put them out of their normal rhythm. Love what I am seeing from us the last week and a half defensively. Lets see how we integrate with MG3. And Grayson of old is back.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 02:43 PM
Thanks for leaving the room. We owe the win to you, apparently.

Absolutely, I left and Duke went 9-2 from then on......(weird how this happens a lot.....seriously..... I left the Texas, Florida and Miami games for a while, and came back when Duke had taken the lead. Maybe I'll just sleep through the entire games now...

heyman25
02-18-2018, 02:45 PM
It is a good win.Duke could have pulled away,but was unable to finish play after play in the 2nd half.We kept Clemson in the game by poor execution in the half court offense. We had a little luck because Clemson missed many open looks.They also turned the ball over more than Duke. This game will be good experience on how to get a grinder game win. Bolden and White gave us some good minutes off the bench.Bolden though needs to pay attention on defense. He left the basket wide open.He was yanked immediately after that costly mistake.Surprised O'Connell was not used more today.

subzero02
02-18-2018, 02:45 PM
True, but I"m concerned about the 0-10 run that tied it at 57...

I am not that concerned. We missed so many easy buckets inside that fall most of the time... we were still getting good looks and attacking. I think Duval and Trent missed the front ends of one and ones during that stretch as well. Duval's miss doesn't surprise me but 8 times out of 10, Trent will make both of his shots.

curtis325
02-18-2018, 02:46 PM
True, but I"m concerned about the 0-10 run that tied it at 57...

Of course you are.

Ima Facultiwyfe
02-18-2018, 02:56 PM
Thanks Wendell.
Love, Ima

arnie
02-18-2018, 02:56 PM
Two games up on 5th place teams in ACC. We should have double bye in tourney about wrapped up.

dukelifer
02-18-2018, 03:06 PM
While we struggled with Kyrieís return in Ď11, Boozer was able to adjust nicely in 2001 - Letís pray Bagley can do the same.

As far as the game goes - H-U-G-E win! We control our own destiny for the 2 seed in the ACCT and, theoretically, a #1 seed in the NCAAT.

Big difference between integrating a guy who needs the ball in his hands and one that excels at offensive rebounding and bouncing off the floor.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-18-2018, 03:13 PM
True, but I"m concerned about the 0-10 run that tied it at 57...

It is all perspective. The way I see it, Duke weathered a 10-0 run against a team ranked higher than them, in a house where Clemson hasn't lost, without out number one option on offense.

I call that a good day.

sagegrouse
02-18-2018, 03:18 PM
It is all perspective. The way I see it, Duke weathered a 10-0 run against a team ranked higher than them, in a house where Clemson hasn't lost, without out number one option on offense.

I call that a good day.

All's Well that Ends Well -- the Bard of Avon (I gave him the line -- well maybe I dreamt that.)

BTW, I thought our defense was terrific today, contesting almost every shot, and having a number of open-court turnovers.

CoachJ10
02-18-2018, 03:20 PM
As someone who hasn't really seen Clemson play this year...after watching them today, it is clear this is a different team than the Clemson's of the past. Here's hoping they (and NCST and VATech) can translate their regular season success to some NCAA success.

Lot of focused effort by pretty much every Blue Devil today. That is how you win close, competitive games.

Javin has been very solid in the role he is capable of...but it is night and day between having him on offense and Bags. If the other four starters keep the trajectory of their play going, mixing back Bags will get us back to the most potent offense in DI. I am very much looking forward to that over the next 4 games and beyond.

DaleDuke7
02-18-2018, 03:22 PM
Very good win. We wouldn't have been capable of winning a road game like this two weeks ago, a game in which the opposing defense outplayed our offense. But "New Duke" (zone + return of Grayson + healthy Javin & Marques) can win an ugly defensive battle in a hostile atmosphere.

Now, it's just about getting Bagley back and having him adjust to "New Duke" (instead of the other way around).

Yep, this is huge. Hope theyíre able to use his abilities to help others as well. I donít feel like that happened a whole lot before we committed to zone.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-18-2018, 03:36 PM
Big difference between integrating a guy who needs the ball in his hands and one that excels at offensive rebounding and bouncing off the floor.

Good point. Bagley I guess would be somewhere in the middle of the Boozer/Kyrie Ball-handling spectrum, with a definite lean towards Boozerís end.

Having said that, it does seem Bagleyís presence, or lack thereof, affects Allenís production in a similar way Kyrieís play affected Nolan Smith.

Hopefully it will be nothing to worry about at all, but it may bear a little watching should Bagley return.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-18-2018, 03:41 PM
It is all perspective. The way I see it, Duke weathered a 10-0 run against a team ranked higher than them, in a house where Clemson hasn't lost, without out number one option on offense.

I call that a good day.

Defeating Clemson on the road is never easy, no matter how bad they are. I remember some good Duke squads getting beat convincingly down there before.

Adding in the fact that this yearís Clemson team is good, this was an impressive win indeed.

Devilwin
02-18-2018, 03:42 PM
I disagree. Grayson Allen made multiple good defensive plays in the 2nd half plus he handled the ball against the Clemson press. There is more to basketball than scoring.

Absolutely there is more than scoring, but my thing is he seemed to be careless with the ball, and took some ill advised shots. So we can agree to disagree. That's fine by me.:cool:

dukelifer
02-18-2018, 03:44 PM
All's Well that Ends Well -- the Bard of Avon (I gave him the line -- well maybe I dreamt that.)

BTW, I thought our defense was terrific today, contesting almost every shot, and having a number of open-court turnovers.

Looking more and more like the Bard stole a lot of lines. That said, you have to execute in the last two minutes and Duke did that. Good win in a tough place to play.

ipatent
02-18-2018, 03:48 PM
It is a good win.Duke could have pulled away,but was unable to finish play after play in the 2nd half.We kept Clemson in the game by poor execution in the half court offense.

Give Clemson's defense credit, they made points hard to get with stout interior defense and kept Allen from getting good looks in the second half. They are a good team even with two key players missing. No accident they were undefeated at home before this game.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 03:55 PM
It is all perspective. The way I see it, Duke weathered a 10-0 run against a team ranked higher than them, in a house where Clemson hasn't lost, without out number one option on offense.

I call that a good day.

Well there's merits and eye test, and on the merits, no doubt it's a good day.
That said, we're not looking anywhere close to as good as UNC is looking lately, vis a vis the eye test. And of course, it's still too early to peak. As we found out last year, even peaking in the ACC tournament can be a very bad thing. The Heels may be peaking a tad too soon.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-18-2018, 03:58 PM
Well there's merits and eye test, and on the merits, no doubt it's a good day.
That said, we're not looking anywhere close to as good as UNC is looking lately, vis a vis the eye test. And of course, it's still too early to peak. As we found out last year, even peaking in the ACC tournament can be a very bad thing. The Heels may be peaking a tad too soon.

Well, 19 days ago UNC lost in Littlejohn.

Not sure what it says about my hubris, but UNC does not scare me. I would wager big money straight up against UNC in two week, with or without Bags.

DukieInBrasil
02-18-2018, 03:58 PM
i only saw the 2nd half, so i didn't witness Grayson's apparently spectacular 1st half. His second half was pretty poor, even if he did play decent defense. Bad shot selection, a couple of really poor turnovers, but he hit those 2 FTs in clutch time, so kudos.
I really liked what i saw from Trevon today. It seems that making him PGb and Grayson PGa is really working well. Maybe Trevon was feeling too much pressure before, but whatever it was, he has become much steadier now than the first part of ACC play. Grayson has also rediscovered his offense since the move, averaging 20+ in the 3 games since the change.
Even though Wendell got the 2x double, it seemed like he was over maneuvering on a bunch of those plays in the 2nd half. It seems like Clemson was really clamping down on the perimeter so maybe he didn't trust enough to pass the ball out.
Javin DeLaurier really deserves a lot of credit. 10 rebounds, and among those he single-handedly kept a possession alive for 2 extra shot clocks (even though we didn't score that trip down) to burn 1.5 minutes off the clock as the 2nd half was getting short.

This team has really discovered a new ACC-Tough persona lately, and it couldn't have come at a better time. 2-0 now in a tough as hell 6 game gauntlet (3-0 if you wanna count the post-UNC GT game).

bird
02-18-2018, 04:01 PM
I think we saw what we are going to see a lot of going forward:


Grayson and Duval sharing ball handling duties. Grayson was notably keeping the ball coming up the court where earlier in the season he would have quickly handed it off to Duval. K has commented that the offense looks better when Grayson is handling point duties, and today we may have seen that it helps Duval as well.
Zone appears to be what we play predominantly going forward. I think Duke will be a zone team.

stingy
02-18-2018, 04:01 PM
Hey gang, sorry to toot my own horn just a little but I co-host the twice monthly sports show on the Duke student radio station WXDU and we'll be on the air tonight from 6:00 to 7:00 talking about the games this week and other Duke sports. I'm an avid DBR reader but seldom post. I'm class of 2002 and other host is a current grad students. We would love to have ya'll listen in tonight and again every first and third Sunday of the month. You can find us at wxdu.org. Great victory today, they made me sweat it down the stretch but the guys ultimately came through in the clutch! Go Devils!

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 04:02 PM
Well, 19 days ago UNC lost in Littlejohn.

Not sure what it says about my hubris, but UNC does not scare me. I would wager big money straight up against UNC in two week, with or without Bags.

Well yes, 19 days ago no one, including me, was talking about how well UNC was playing. But the last 5 games they've been tremendous. This doesn't scare me though...because anything can change in two weeks, like it has from two week ago. And again, after last season, nothing matters til the NCAA really. Duke was crazy good in the ACC in Brooklyn, then terrible in both games in Greenville.

AtlDuke72
02-18-2018, 04:05 PM
I think we saw what we are going to see a lot of going forward:


Grayson and Duval sharing ball handling duties. Grayson was notably keeping the ball coming up the court where earlier in the season he would have quickly handed it off to Duval. K has commented that the offense looks better when Grayson is handling point duties, and today we may have seen that it helps Duval as well.
Zone appears to be what we play predominantly going forward. I think Duke will be a zone team.


Clemson only scored 23 points in the second half. Maybe the defense is finally getting where it needs to be to go far in the tournaments. I hope that is what we see going forward!

UrinalCake
02-18-2018, 04:20 PM
Had to give some kudos to Carter for doing the dirty work down low. He had a frustrating first half, Clemson was very physical and he wasnít getting many calls and was clearly frustrated. But he was able to regain his composure and have a very productive second half. His shooting numbers for the game donít look too good but he really anchored us inside with smaller contributions from Bolden and Javin.

With that said, I know a common theme seems to be that if Bagley werenít on our team then Carter would be the superstar receiving all the accolades. I donít know if I totally agree with this. I love Carter and what he brings and I do think he is underrated, but the past three games have shown me that the attention that Bagley draws also benefits Carter tremendously. He hasnít gotten the easy dump offs for dunks or clear paths for offensive rebound slams when the defense is all focused on him.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-18-2018, 04:33 PM
Clemson only scored 23 points in the second half. Maybe the defense is finally getting where it needs to be to go far in the tournaments. I hope that is what we see going forward!
K said after the VT game that we would be primarily a zone team going forward. What I love about today is how well it represents the continued evolution of this yearís team. No one could possibly criticize the coaching staff for any level of stubbornness (well, maybe, this is DBR!) after all the lineup management and defensive tinkering weíve witnessed across the last several weeks. I think this is when K and staff are at their best... making adjustments to suit the team after finally figuring what all the pieces are and how to fit them together. Iím hopeful for a strong finish and deep post season run as we round into defensive shape and get a well rested MB back on the floor.

Onlyduke
02-18-2018, 04:44 PM
Huge win

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 04:52 PM
K said after the VT game that we would be primarily a zone team going forward. What I love about today is how well it represents the continued evolution of this yearís team. No one could possibly criticize the coaching staff for any level of stubbornness (well, maybe, this is DBR!) after all the lineup management and defensive tinkering weíve witnessed across the last several weeks. I think this is when K and staff are at their best... making adjustments to suit the team after finally figuring what all the pieces are and how to fit them together. Iím hopeful for a strong finish and deep post season run as we round into defensive shape and get a well rested MB back on the floor.

On the issue of stubbornness - we've seen a remarkable lack of it the last few weeks with multiple Jack White sightings, the switch to zone and proclamation that zone it is, and other minutes for AOC and so on....and I welcome it. Who knows, a deep run may be in the offing. To win six games, or to win even four, there will be times when Javin or Jack or Alex or Marques will have to make some big plays. It's good they're getting the minutes.

Wildling
02-18-2018, 04:56 PM
I haven't posted in a long while. Usually because someone says what I'm thinking and I don't need to beat the dead horse anymore, or add to the euphoria of victory.

However, I think it's already been said, I'm soooooooooooo happy to see Grayson playing like Grayson of old again. It makes the team that much more enjoyable to watch. And maybe it's just me, but I feel we're able to withstand these runs from the opposing teams knowing Grayson can make the defensive play, stick a 3 in their eye, or throw it down and get the team back on track. It's been a pleasure watching him play these past 4 years.

OldPhiKap
02-18-2018, 04:59 PM
I haven't posted in a long while. Usually because someone says what I'm thinking and I don't need to beat the dead horse anymore, or add to the euphoria of victory.

However, I think it's already been said, I'm soooooooooooo happy to see Grayson playing like Grayson of old again. It makes the team that much more enjoyable to watch. And maybe it's just me, but I feel we're able to withstand these runs from the opposing teams knowing Grayson can make the defensive play, stick a 3 in their eye, or throw it down and get the team back on track. It's been a pleasure watching him play these past 4 years.

Great post, wholly agree.

Troublemaker
02-18-2018, 05:16 PM
Big difference between integrating a guy who needs the ball in his hands and one that excels at offensive rebounding and bouncing off the floor.

I agree with this. The concern is more about how the coaches and players react to his return.

Will Grayson revert to kowtowing to the Bagley postup and sometimes sporting MattJones-like usage numbers in a game, or will Grayson continue to hunt his shot and be a 20-point threat every game, which he should be? Will Coach K help Grayson towards this goal by running plays for him? We don't want to lose this Grayson that we've seen the past 3 games (and also the Michigan St game when Marvin was out).

Native
02-18-2018, 05:21 PM
I agree with this. The concern is more about how the coaches and players react to his return.

Will Grayson revert to kowtowing to the Bagley postup and sometimes sporting MattJones-like usage numbers in a game, or will Grayson continue to hunt his shot and be a 20-point threat every game, which he should be? Will Coach K help Grayson towards this goal by running plays for him? We don't want to lose this Grayson that we've seen the past 3 games (and also the Michigan St game when Marvin was out).

This. We've seen examples of successful reintegrations of key players late in the season (Boozer) and examples of it not going so well (Kyrie). I do think it'll be easier to reintroduce a post player as opposed to a point guard. I like the use of the phrase "hunting his shot." It's about being aggressive for Grayson.

DukeDevil
02-18-2018, 06:10 PM
Iím rewatching the game as I was in an airport and barely watched it live. Do they not call techs for hanging on rims anymore? Additionally on the next play I completely get coach Ks anger at that flagrant 1 call.

Iím really proud of the guys. Feels like a real solid effort all around.

DukieInKansas
02-18-2018, 06:25 PM
Iím rewatching the game as I was in an airport and barely watched it live. Do they not call techs for hanging on rims anymore? Additionally on the next play I completely get coach Ks anger at that flagrant 1 call.

Iím really proud of the guys. Feels like a real solid effort all around.

If you are talking about the play where the Clemson player was hanging on the rim before the ball went through, i was wondering why it wasn't basket interference. Or did I miss a call?

Owen Meany
02-18-2018, 06:28 PM
An aside that may be interesting to some who have been Duke fans for awhile - I was watching a replay of Carter's basket in the final minute and am pretty sure that William Avery was sitting behind the Duke bench. Didn't hear this mentioned during the game, but I may have missed it as I was leaving for a soccer match. Nearly 20 years later opposing fans still claim Avery has a bad relationship with Coach K due to Curry Kirkpatrick's hatchet job for ESPN the Mag (where did he go to school again?) when the 3 amigos left school. I've seen Avery since admit that he made a mistake leaving school early and that he was taken advantage of by some of the people around him. He's been back to Duke at times, and its nice to see him behind the bench.

CameronDuke
02-18-2018, 06:29 PM
So how far will Duke jump up in the polls tomorrow? I'm saying Duke is ranked 7th at worst tomorrow and 5th at best.

They'll jump Texas Tech, Cincinnati, Ohio State, Auburn, Purdue, Clemson, and MAYBE Villanova/Xavier.

Troublemaker
02-18-2018, 06:31 PM
Jack's face as he saw the lane open up

Higher-resolution version (https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/VillainousWarmAsiandamselfly).

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/VillainousWarmAsiandamselfly-size_restricted.gif

DukieInBrasil
02-18-2018, 06:32 PM
If you are talking about the play where the Clemson player was hanging on the rim before the ball went through, i was wondering why it wasn't basket interference. Or did I miss a call?
the announcers on the television machine said that he may have been concerned with his own safety due to all the congestion in the lane, and therefore it was allowable. The refs were seen conferring after the play and seemed to agree with that take. Could have been called basket interference, or much less likely a T. I don't think the refs were wrong although, it could have been just a tad of home-team consideration.


An aside that may be interesting to some who have been Duke fans for awhile - I was watching a replay of Carter's basket in the final minute and am pretty sure that William Avery was sitting behind the Duke bench. Didn't hear this mentioned during the game, but I may have missed it as I was leaving for a soccer match. Nearly 20 years later opposing fans still claim Avery has a bad relationship with Coach K due to Curry Kirkpatrick's hatchet job for ESPN the Mag (where did he go to school again?) when the 3 amigos left school. I've seen Avery since admit that he made a mistake leaving school early and that he was taken advantage of by some of the people around him. He's been back to Duke at times, and its nice to see him behind the bench.

i didn't notice Avery, nor did i not notice him. It's good to know that there's no ill will (ba-duh tching!). I'll show myself out...

NM Duke Fan
02-18-2018, 06:34 PM
Grayson had a magnificent first half, near perfect. I was hoping to see a bit more of that, but good to see both Carter and Duval have a significant offensive impact in the second. I liked the improved play by Duval overall, and the team defensive hustle and energy and decision making was pretty consistent, except for losing shooters at times. Even the coaching seemed improved. Overall Grayson's first half play and the overall defensive effectiveness had me gaining further optimism that this team can indeed fulfill its potential, which is as high as any team out there, just look at how many top teams lost this weekend. There are no great teams ... yet. This Duke team has great talent and is now game by game making the progress to move towards that great level. The next 4 games are going to be fascinating to watch for further fine-tuning, including the re-integration of Bagley into an evolving team!

DukieInKansas
02-18-2018, 06:34 PM
Agreed and a few lost more than once. And at least one, Kansas, should have lost if it wasnít for ...er... favorable officiating.

It was a good bball day for me - Duke won, Michigan won, PSU won, and Wichita State won. Great day.

lotusland
02-18-2018, 06:45 PM
Very good win. We wouldn't have been capable of winning a road game like this two weeks ago, a game in which the opposing defense outplayed our offense. But "New Duke" (zone + return of Grayson + healthy Javin & Marques) can win an ugly defensive battle in a hostile atmosphere.

Now, it's just about getting Bagley back and having him adjust to "New Duke" (instead of the other way around).


While Duke was tired, I thought we saw a bit too much of the "prevent victory offense," where we delay the offense until 10-15 seconds left.

And, by the way, what's wrong with the rims at Littlejohn, or is it something else? Both teams missed a boatload of shots within two feet of the basket. Both defenses were fighting hard, but still...

Stall ball works if you donít turn the ball over, commit fouls and make free throws. Duke shot free throws well over all and Trentís 3 free throws sealed but this team does need to work on poise closing out a win. That includes Grayson and probably his biggest fan.

UrinalCake
02-18-2018, 06:46 PM
I think it's already been said, I'm soooooooooooo happy to see Grayson playing like Grayson of old again.

I agree with your sentiment, but I donít feel like weíve even fully seen Grayson at his best. He had a great half tonight, but his second half was limited to two free throws and some poor decisions down the stretch. VT was a great night shooting the three, but GT was good, not great. I think heís still due for a breakout game where he completely dominates. After that happens, Iíll be ready to proclaim that heís ďback.Ē And Iíd love to see him attacking the rim more rather than solely relying on the three. I know that heís never going to revert to sophomore year Grayson, when he attacked relentlessly with a gung-ho style. But he still has room to improve.

WVDUKEFAN
02-18-2018, 06:54 PM
Is Marques in the penalty box? Limited minutes today.

Troublemaker
02-18-2018, 07:05 PM
Is Marques in the penalty box? Limited minutes today.

14 minutes off the bench isn't too bad actually, especially considering we only played the bench 23 minutes total.

I would get used to these extremely low bench minute totals. I know Coach K runs a tight rotation anyway, but the zone defense additionally allows the starters to rest and to stay out of foul trouble.

Coach K + zone defense will lead to ridiculously low bench minutes.

heyman25
02-18-2018, 07:06 PM
Good Will Avery photo. Thanks for pointing that out.Teammate of Nate James. http://www.goduke.com/PhotoAlbum.dbml?PALBID=2199385&DB_OEM_ID=4200

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 07:08 PM
Is Marques in the penalty box? Limited minutes today.

Maybe Alex, same question....

MChambers
02-18-2018, 07:21 PM
Is Marques in the penalty box? Limited minutes today.
Don't think so. We just didn't need two bigs out there at once against Clemson.

I thought Marques played well, other than the time he fell asleep at the back of the press. He's made significant progress this year.

Sixthman
02-18-2018, 07:34 PM
K said after the VT game that we would be primarily a zone team going forward. What I love about today is how well it represents the continued evolution of this year’s team. No one could possibly criticize the coaching staff for any level of stubbornness (well, maybe, this is DBR!) after all the lineup management and defensive tinkering we’ve witnessed across the last several weeks. I think this is when K and staff are at their best... making adjustments to suit the team after finally figuring what all the pieces are and how to fit them together. I’m hopeful for a strong finish and deep post season run as we round into defensive shape and get a well rested MB back on the floor.

In an interview played on the pregame of the Duke radio broadcast, Coach Capel said kids come to us from high school without ever having had to play defense. They have to learn how to apply after they arrive in college. He added that the caliber of defense required at the major college level was high but, said, no sugar coating applied, that zone is easier to play than man-to-man and we are playing zone because we are not very good at defense. This sounds true, and makes more sense in light of Coach K's past practices (avoiding zone like the plague).

Having been trained -- by Coach K -- to love great man-to-man defense, I find I'm not very good at watching zone. I was at the Virginia Tech game and thought our zone looked pretty good, particularly in the second half. I watched the replay this weekend, and thought we looked pretty bad and that Virginia Tech simply missed one wide open shot after another. Today, in the first half, we seemed better, but almost every Clemson basket was a wide open shot. I realize the zone creates these opportunities, but assume the idea is limit them. We did a better job in the second half.

It's kind of hard to tell what we're playing. Sometimes it looks like a 3-2 and sometimes a 2-3. A couple of times one guy went so high that it looked like a 1-3-1. I'd love to hear from anyone with a little insight into what we are trying to do. The guys up top seem to be getting into the passing lanes more than the guys in the middle or bottom. Is that a result of talent and effort, or are we intentionally over playing on the strong side and shifting and keeping the big guys at home?

TNTDevil
02-18-2018, 07:36 PM
Is Marques in the penalty box? Limited minutes today.


14 minutes off the bench isn't too bad actually, especially considering we only played the bench 23 minutes total.

I would get used to these extremely low bench minute totals. I know Coach K runs a tight rotation anyway, but the zone defense additionally allows the starters to rest and to stay out of foul trouble.

Coach K + zone defense will lead to ridiculously low bench minutes.I heard just last week(end?) Coach said that, for the foreseeable future, he was gonna limit Marques to about 15 minutes per game. Something about letting him continue to heal while also getting himself into game-shape.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 07:41 PM
This. We've seen examples of successful reintegrations of key players late in the season (Boozer) and examples of it not going so well (Kyrie). I do think it'll be easier to reintroduce a post player as opposed to a point guard. I like the use of the phrase "hunting his shot." It's about being aggressive for Grayson.

I am not convinced that the Kyrie re-introduction was the problem. Arizona played a fantasy island game that was far better than any game they played that season, and they came down to earth and got waxed in the next round. I don't think anybody beats Arizona the way they played against us that night.

The Boozer re-introduction could not have gone better. Of course, having leadership like Battier and Jay Will is very helpful....

jimsumner
02-18-2018, 07:55 PM
I am not convinced that the Kyrie re-introduction was the problem. Arizona played a fantasy island game that was far better than any game they played that season, and they came down to earth and got waxed in the next round. I don't think anybody beats Arizona the way they played against us that night.

The Boozer re-introduction could not have gone better. Of course, having leadership like Battier and Jay Will is very helpful...

Nolan Smith was 3-14 from the field against Arizona, with six turnovers. That was in large part due to the reintroduction of Kyrie Irving.

ipatent
02-18-2018, 08:01 PM
Nolan's stats no doubt would have been better without Kyrie's presence, but the game was lost inside. Kyrie himself had a very good game that probably offset any detriment his return had on chemistry.

Ultrarunner
02-18-2018, 08:05 PM
I am not convinced that the Kyrie re-introduction was the problem. Arizona played a fantasy island game that was far better than any game they played that season, and they came down to earth and got waxed in the next round. I don't think anybody beats Arizona the way they played against us that night.

The Boozer re-introduction could not have gone better. Of course, having leadership like Battier and Jay Will is very helpful...


Nolan Smith was 3-14 from the field against Arizona, with six turnovers. That was in large part due to the reintroduction of Kyrie Irving.

You both are right. Yes, reintroducing Kyrie affected the flow. But the 3-pointer that Derrick Williams hit right before half was a miracle shot - on the replay, from his vantage point, he couldn't even see the basket.

dukejim1
02-18-2018, 08:13 PM
Javin played what may have been the best game of his career and gave me more hope for his future contributions than I have had before. That being said, the difference in just the quality of their hands between Bagley and Javin makes a significant improvement in our offense with Bags. It should be easier for MB to fit back into this new improved zone defense than to move back into our old MTM. Iím excited about getting Marvin back and having an improved Bolden, Javin and White coming off the bench. That, plus improvement from Trevon and I now see hope for a run. Letís go get Louisville now.



As someone who hasn't really seen Clemson play this year...after watching them today, it is clear this is a different team than the Clemson's of the past. Here's hoping they (and NCST and VATech) can translate their regular season success to some NCAA success.

Lot of focused effort by pretty much every Blue Devil today. That is how you win close, competitive games.

Javin has been very solid in the role he is capable of...but it is night and day between having him on offense and Bags. If the other four starters keep the trajectory of their play going, mixing back Bags will get us back to the most potent offense in DI. I am very much looking forward to that over the next 4 games and beyond.

Rich
02-18-2018, 08:14 PM
It's kind of hard to tell what we're playing. Sometimes it looks like a 3-2 and sometimes a 2-3. A couple of times one guy went so high that it looked like a 1-3-1. I'd love to hear from anyone with a little insight into what we are trying to do. The guys up top seem to be getting into the passing lanes more than the guys in the middle or bottom. Is that a result of talent and effort, or are we intentionally over playing on the strong side and shifting and keeping the big guys at home?

There are a number of good posts about this scattered throughout, I think by either CDu or Kedsy. We play a 2-3, but it morphs depending on the positioning of the offensive players. It's not a static 2-3 but instead our players position themselves further up towards the 3 point line, in corners, at the FT line, etc. depending on how what the other team's offense is trying to run and how they're positioned. The fact that it's hard to tell what we're playing is kind of the point, as long as our guys know what they're doing.

dukejim1
02-18-2018, 08:21 PM
Also after the game, K said if they were going to make a mistake in closing out it would not be against DeVoe or Reed. The really open looks specially in the first half were from the other Clemson players.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 08:33 PM
You both are right. Yes, reintroducing Kyrie affected the flow. But the 3-pointer that Derrick Williams hit right before half was a miracle shot - on the replay, from his vantage point, he couldn't even see the basket.

So glad you mentioned that shot....it was the killer, even though Duke still lead......because more importantly than just that shot, it injected him with all kinds of confidence and he had a monster second half.......they'd have beaten anyone that night.

Ggallagher
02-18-2018, 08:33 PM
Is Marques in the penalty box? Limited minutes today.

Marques pretty much got pulled off the court instantly when he got scored on after a nearly full court pass and he was the back man in the zone. Gminski called him out for it as soon as the play happened and commented that Coach was sending in Carter (I think) in response to Marques letting Clemson score like that. It did look like pretty poor alertness on defense. Probably something that didn't please Coach very much.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 08:34 PM
Nolan Smith was 3-14 from the field against Arizona, with six turnovers. That was in large part due to the reintroduction of Kyrie Irving.

But Kyrie had over 30 didn't he...that also was due in large part to the re-introduction of Kyrie...

DukeDevil
02-18-2018, 08:45 PM
If you are talking about the play where the Clemson player was hanging on the rim before the ball went through, i was wondering why it wasn't basket interference. Or did I miss a call?

It was a different play. The one right before the steal by Clemson where Grayson was called for the ridiculous flagrant 1.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 08:48 PM
It was a different play. The one right before the steal by Clemson where Grayson was called for the ridiculous flagrant 1.

WTF was that all about???? That was absurd.

jimsumner
02-18-2018, 08:48 PM
But Kyrie had over 30 didn't he...that also was due in large part fo the re-introduction of Kyrie...

Irving had 28 points.

Bringing him back was absolutely the right decision. But it did disrupt Smith's role and the team's cohesion and that's an opinion shared by people on that team and on that staff.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 08:50 PM
Irving had 28 points.

Bringing him back was absolutely the right decision. But it did disrupt Smith's role and the team's cohesion and that's an opinion shared by people on that team and on that staff.

It was the ONLY decision. Yes, chemistry was a risk, but he was the team's best player, and besides, he was clearly healthy and ready to play. You can't sit a kid in that situation. Ironically, he probably stays another year if he didn't play those 3 games at the end, or whatever it was.....but you can't bench your best player and you can't screw the kid that way either.

Acymetric
02-18-2018, 08:55 PM
But Kyrie had over 30 didn't he...that also was due in large part to the re-introduction of Kyrie...

There is no way to prove either side of this argument correct, but I'll point put that those 30 points would not just have disappeared...if Kyrie had not played someone else would have taken all those shots and made (some, most, all) of them.

Bob Green
02-18-2018, 08:57 PM
So glad you mentioned that shot...it was the killer, even though Duke still lead...because more importantly than just that shot, it injected him with all kinds of confidence and he had a monster second half....they'd have beaten anyone that night.

Your memory is failing you. Derrick Williams scored the majority of his points in the 1st half, he was 5-6 on 3 PT FG in 1st half scoring 25 of his 32 points before intermission. His teammates had a monster 2nd half.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?25021-MBB-S16-Arizona-93-Duke-77-Post-Game-Thread/page4&highlight=Arizona

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=20110324

ChillinDuke
02-18-2018, 09:03 PM
Folks, Marvin has been out 3 games.

This is not a "reintegration" on the same scale as Kyrie and Carlos.

Oh yeah, and great game today.

- Chillin

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 09:05 PM
Your memory is failing you. Derrick Williams scored the majority of his points in the 1st half, he was 5-6 on 3 PT FG in 1st half scoring 25 of his 32 points before intermission. His teammates had a monster 2nd half.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?25021-MBB-S16-Arizona-93-Duke-77-Post-Game-Thread/page4&highlight=Arizona

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=20110324

Wouldn't be the first time my memory failed....but my gist was correct - that Arizona team never came close to matching that performance before or after that game. Duke was better, just not on that night.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-18-2018, 09:06 PM
Folks, Marvin has been out 3 games.

This is not a "reintegration" on the same scale as Kyrie and Carlos.

- Chillin

Well, for that matter, the reintegration of Booz wasn't nearly the same scale as Kyrie - but there is still analogy here to all three situations....just with caveats.

ncexnyc
02-18-2018, 09:11 PM
The Kyrie debate is back and it gives the Austin Rivers debate a run for its money on what seems like an annual basis.

I'd much rather point to Seth's injury in the 2nd half and Kyle's mysterious cut that took forever to repair for our loss than Kyrie's return to the team.

ipatent
02-18-2018, 09:14 PM
Rebounding differential was the statline that stood out in the Arizona game. Duke was beaten on the boards, not because of backcourt play.

Rich
02-18-2018, 09:16 PM
It was the ONLY decision. Yes, chemistry was a risk, but he was the team's best player, and besides, he was clearly healthy and ready to play. You can't sit a kid in that situation. Ironically, he probably stays another year if he didn't play those 3 games at the end, or whatever it was....but you can't bench your best player and you can't screw the kid that way either.

Kyrie has said that he would've come back for a second year if his injury kept him from playing in the Tourney.

jv001
02-18-2018, 09:21 PM
So how far will Duke jump up in the polls tomorrow? I'm saying Duke is ranked 7th at worst tomorrow and 5th at best.

They'll jump Texas Tech, Cincinnati, Ohio State, Auburn, Purdue, Clemson, and MAYBE Villanova/Xavier.

In the Kenpom ratings, he has Duke #3 and at #43 on D. GoDuke!

Rich
02-18-2018, 09:25 PM
In the Kenpom ratings, he has Duke #3 and at #43 on D. GoDuke!

Interesting...Kenpom shows UVA and Villanova (#1 and #2 overall) to be complete mirror images of each other (1, 42) for offense and defense. Can you guess which is which?

moonpie23
02-18-2018, 09:28 PM
i don't think i've seen a rougher game this year for our guys than today.....seems like refs had ZERO control over the game....they allowed a LOT of contact by both teams...


i think duke showed some physical toughness today. i dig it...

jv001
02-18-2018, 09:32 PM
Interesting...Kenpom shows UVA and Villanova (#1 and #2 overall) to be complete mirror images of each other (1, 42) for offense and defense. Can you guess which is which?

Yeh, that's a no-brainer on Kenpom.:cool: It will be interesting to see the AP and Coaches Poll as to where the Blue Devils will be ranked. GoDuke!

jv001
02-18-2018, 09:49 PM
Some data from Neals +/- thread.

The starting lineup of: Javin, Wendell, Gary, Grayson and Trevon was: 0 +/- in 24.37 minutes

With Bolden in that lineup in place of Javin that lineup was +6, in 4.28 minutes.

Individual +/-
GAry +12
Wendell +10
Grayson +9
Bolden +5
Trevon + 3
White + 3
Alex +2

My eye test must have been wrong because I thought Trevon played as well as anyone and I certainly didn't think Javin was a - in point differential. GoDuke!

fan345678
02-18-2018, 09:56 PM
Well, for that matter, the reintegration of Booz wasn't nearly the same scale as Kyrie - but there is still analogy here to all three situations...just with caveats.

Other reintegrations following various lengths of absence:
K (multiple times)
Jah
Ryan
Dre
McClure
Shav
Horvath
Christensen
Trajan
Nate
Grant
Bobby

CoachJ10
02-18-2018, 09:59 PM
i don't think i've seen a rougher game this year for our guys than today....seems like refs had ZERO control over the game...they allowed a LOT of contact by both teams...


i think duke showed some physical toughness today. i dig it...

Watch out, the ďrefs cannot be commented on ever, especially in a winĒ police are on the warpath lately...

camion
02-18-2018, 10:17 PM
Watch out, the ďrefs cannot be commented on ever, especially in a winĒ police are on the warpath lately...

The police police also appear to be on duty.🤔

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-18-2018, 10:21 PM
Kyrie has said that he would've come back for a second year if his injury kept him from playing in the Tourney.

Well then, CLEARLY should have sat him.

/s

kako
02-18-2018, 10:52 PM
5 thoughts on the game after browsing this thread:

1. I think at half K knew that we don't win this game without Carter, even if Allen gets another 17 in the 2nd. So Allen's "lesser" 2nd was likely due in part to the concerted effort to get Carter into the mix. And it worked. Allen had a fine overall game.

2. DeLaurier's 10 boards were huge. His best game ever?

3. Duval had a better game than usual, but to me he's still out of control too often. I saw he was credited with only 2 TO's - seemed more to me. And the airball will keep me cringing every time he shoots (I know - he was 5-11 today. But still...). I like his slash drives, wish he would focus on that. His game now reminds me so much of when Rajon Rondo was at UK.

4. Trent's 3 FTs were the obvious turning point of the game. It was money. When the game's on the line, he and Allen should solely own the ball for FTs. Nobody else is trustworthy.

5. Biggest, most meaningful win of the season. Of course, every game from here on out will the be biggest, most meaningful game of the season. Wins may not mean as much for every game, but losses would be huge.

9F

gofurman
02-18-2018, 10:56 PM
Also after the game, K said if they were going to make a mistake in closing out it would not be against DeVoe or Reed. The really open looks specially in the first half were from the other Clemson players.

A wise play. Devoe is the most dangerous and second is Reed. Even if you give up the two don't let Devoe get hot People say the Tigers look good , consider they are without DGrantham and now Shelton - I hope Shelton returns soon as they are a tough out w him and I wish them well. To be a team that hasn't gone to the tourney in five years or so and lose one of your top guys in DGrantham and still keep moving is impressive. IMo they could lose several more game and still make the Ncaa. They are top 25 and a prob 4 seed or so now. Great for a team that hasn't made NCAA in 5 years. And then if they could win one or two... They should be favored in game one of ncaa w a 4/5 seed. Hope Shelton gets back to help them. They were obviously missing him today as the backup guys just couldn't threaten to drive as well

gofurman
02-18-2018, 11:00 PM
5 thoughts on the game after browsing this thread:

1. I think at half K knew that we don't win this game without Carter, even if Allen gets another 17 in the 2nd. So Allen's "lesser" 2nd was likely due in part to the concerted effort to get Carter into the mix. And it worked. Allen had a fine overall game.

2. DeLaurier's 10 boards were huge. His best game ever?

3. Duval had a better game than usual, but to me he's still out of control too often. I saw he was credited with only 2 TO's - seemed more to me. And the airball will keep me cringing every time he shoots (I know - he was 5-11 today. But still...). I like his slash drives, wish he would focus on that. His game now reminds me so much of when Rajon Rondo was at UK.

4. Trent's 3 FTs were the obvious turning point of the game. It was money. When the game's on the line, he and Allen should solely own the ball for FTs. Nobody else is trustworthy.

5. Biggest, most meaningful win of the season. Of course, every game from here on out will the be biggest, most meaningful game of the season. Wins may not mean as much for every game, but losses would be huge. *

9F

Rpi agrees that's our biggest win , ! Just ahead of Mich State and Miami. To win at tiger town is at a top ten team - tigers hadn't lost at home until today (13-1 home record)

duketaylor
02-18-2018, 11:14 PM
A few have posted where they thought Duke will be ranked later today. I'd guess 4, 5 or 6 in both polls. Lunardi will likely have us on a 2-line, and close to a 1-line. I can't see how KU gets a 1 over us. Maybe we'll be considered the 4th 1. Should be very close. Updated kenpom has the top 10: 1) UVA, 2)'Nova, 3)Duke, 4) Purdue, 5) MSU, 6) UC, 7)unc, 8)TT, 9)Gonzaga, 10) Auburn. KU is 11th.

Missed the game today and scheduled to be working during the Loserville game. Might have flu-like symptoms by Wed.:cool:

Kfanarmy
02-18-2018, 11:23 PM
Nolan's stats no doubt would have been better without Kyrie's presence, but the game was lost inside. Kyrie himself had a very good game that probably offset any detriment his return had on chemistry.

Completely disagree. His reentry disrupted the offense and defense. The team had been playing very well. There simply wasn't enough time to resynch the team. I thought it was a mistake at the time, before the loss, and still see it that way.

Nugget
02-19-2018, 12:49 AM
A few have posted where they thought Duke will be ranked later today. I'd guess 4, 5 or 6 in both polls. Lunardi will likely have us on a 2-line, and close to a 1-line. I can't see how KU gets a 1 over us. Maybe we'll be considered the 4th 1. Should be very close. l:

Agree it should be close, but it's also not hard to see KU ahead of us - they are 10-4 against "Quadrant 1"teams, while we are 3-5.

dukelifer
02-19-2018, 05:20 AM
5 thoughts on the game after browsing this thread:

1. I think at half K knew that we don't win this game without Carter, even if Allen gets another 17 in the 2nd. So Allen's "lesser" 2nd was likely due in part to the concerted effort to get Carter into the mix. And it worked. Allen had a fine overall game.

2. DeLaurier's 10 boards were huge. His best game ever?

3. Duval had a better game than usual, but to me he's still out of control too often. I saw he was credited with only 2 TO's - seemed more to me. And the airball will keep me cringing every time he shoots (I know - he was 5-11 today. But still...). I like his slash drives, wish he would focus on that. His game now reminds me so much of when Rajon Rondo was at UK.

4. Trent's 3 FTs were the obvious turning point of the game. It was money. When the game's on the line, he and Allen should solely own the ball for FTs. Nobody else is trustworthy.

5. Biggest, most meaningful win of the season. Of course, every game from here on out will the be biggest, most meaningful game of the season. Wins may not mean as much for every game, but losses would be huge.

9F

I too like Duval slashing but he still does not finish with touch. As for Rondo- I think K would like Duval to rebound like Rondo. His rebounding numbers could be better with his athleticism.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-19-2018, 05:48 AM
Completely disagree. His reentry disrupted the offense and defense. The team had been playing very well. There simply wasn't enough time to resynch the team. I thought it was a mistake at the time, before the loss, and still see it that way.

Everybody who's ever seen so much as a little league basketball game realized the chemistry risk. But K could not keep a healthy kid, who is the best on the team, on the bench. No way he could have ever done that. No way period. Anything less than a national title under that circumstance would've been totally blamed on K, and then when it got out Kyrie could've played, but that K put the kids' best interests second? Bye bye recruiting forever.

Saratoga2
02-19-2018, 06:39 AM
Stall ball works if you donít turn the ball over, commit fouls and make free throws. Duke shot free throws well over all and Trentís 3 free throws sealed but this team does need to work on poise closing out a win. That includes Grayson and probably his biggest fan.

WVU did the stall ball thing against Kansas and turned a 10 point lead into a 9 point loss with less than 5 minutes to go.

Saratoga2
02-19-2018, 06:44 AM
In an interview played on the pregame of the Duke radio broadcast, Coach Capel said kids come to us from high school without ever having had to play defense. They have to learn how to apply after they arrive in college. He added that the caliber of defense required at the major college level was high but, said, no sugar coating applied, that zone is easier to play than man-to-man and we are playing zone because we are not very good at defense. This sounds true, and makes more sense in light of Coach K's past practices (avoiding zone like the plague).

Having been trained -- by Coach K -- to love great man-to-man defense, I find I'm not very good at watching zone. I was at the Virginia Tech game and thought our zone looked pretty good, particularly in the second half. I watched the replay this weekend, and thought we looked pretty bad and that Virginia Tech simply missed one wide open shot after another. Today, in the first half, we seemed better, but almost every Clemson basket was a wide open shot. I realize the zone creates these opportunities, but assume the idea is limit them. We did a better job in the second half.

It's kind of hard to tell what we're playing. Sometimes it looks like a 3-2 and sometimes a 2-3. A couple of times one guy went so high that it looked like a 1-3-1. I'd love to hear from anyone with a little insight into what we are trying to do. The guys up top seem to be getting into the passing lanes more than the guys in the middle or bottom. Is that a result of talent and effort, or are we intentionally over playing on the strong side and shifting and keeping the big guys at home?

There were quite a few wide open 3's from the corner and it looked like we didn't react when the ball went into the corner. On the other hand, coach K said in the presser that the defensive plan was not to let either Devoe or Reed to get any open looks, so that was the area of concentration and it largely held those two down. I would hope that we could play tough on two guys and still be aware of giving up open looks both from the corner and under the basket. The point total given up was pretty good.

sagegrouse
02-19-2018, 07:34 AM
You both are right. Yes, reintroducing Kyrie affected the flow. But the 3-pointer that Derrick Williams hit right before half was a miracle shot - on the replay, from his vantage point, he couldn't even see the basket.

Yes, and another three a couple of minutes earlier that was also perfectly guarded. Arizona raced off the court at halftime, trailing by only six points, when the margin should have been 12. Charles Barkley said during halftime commentary, "Arizona wins this game. Did you see how pumped they were?"

HereBeforeCoachK
02-19-2018, 08:01 AM
Yes, and another three a couple of minutes earlier that was also perfectly guarded. Arizona raced off the court at halftime, trailing by only six points, when the margin should have been 12. Charles Barkley said during halftime commentary, "Arizona wins this game. Did you see how pumped they were?"

Painful shades of Scottie Thurman over Tony Lang in Charlotte in 94....I think it was Thurman....dude couldn't even see the basket.

ChillinDuke
02-19-2018, 08:30 AM
Well, for that matter, the reintegration of Booz wasn't nearly the same scale as Kyrie - but there is still analogy here to all three situations...just with caveats.

Right just like the analogy that we live on planet Mars, except for planet Earth.

Kyrie is not a good comp for this situation.

- Chillin

HereBeforeCoachK
02-19-2018, 08:45 AM
Right just like the analogy that we live on planet Mars, except for planet Earth.

Kyrie is not a good comp for this situation.

- Chillin

Analogies do not have to be pure nor perfect to be useful. There is a process of re-integration for a key player who misses a single game....there is more of a process for one who misses 6-8 games or whatever Boozer missed, and there is even more of a process for a player who misses 20 games or whatever Kyrie missed. The process of re-integration is the common thread, the dynamics are the same, it's simply a matter of degree based on length of absence.

And BTW, there are probably apt analogies for Earth and Mars. Far from perfect, far from pure, fare from complete.... but analogy doesn't have to be perfect if it's used with caveats.

bluenorth
02-19-2018, 08:51 AM
I only caught the second half, but it seemed to me that down the stretch some players were very tired. Not Allen, he was his usual 38-40 minute per game senior leader self. But some of the younger guys like DeLaurier and Duval looked like they were running out of gas. Some have had layoffs due to injuries so that will have an effect on fitness. So what can we expect from Bagley when he returns? Can he be effective for the same number of minutes per game as before his knee sprain? Or will it be a gradual re-integration, with a couple more minutes of playing time with each passing game?

Also, what is the word on O'Connell? Has K decided that he's not a good fit for zone defence, or were the matchups the last couple of games not in his favor?

CDu
02-19-2018, 09:18 AM
I only caught the second half, but it seemed to me that down the stretch some players were very tired. Not Allen, he was his usual 38-40 minute per game senior leader self. But some of the younger guys like DeLaurier and Duval looked like they were running out of gas. Some have had layoffs due to injuries so that will have an effect on fitness. So what can we expect from Bagley when he returns? Can he be effective for the same number of minutes per game as before his knee sprain? Or will it be a gradual re-integration, with a couple more minutes of playing time with each passing game?

Also, what is the word on O'Connell? Has K decided that he's not a good fit for zone defence, or were the matchups the last couple of games not in his favor?

The problem for O'Connell is that he's a guard, and in the 2-3 zone we don't need a lot of rest for our guards. Allen and Duval played 78 minutes, and I thought both looked great out there. So unless Allen or Duval gets in foul trouble or gets hurt, it's going to be hard for O'Connell to log minutes.

The staff appears to have (rightly so, in my opinion) decided that DeLaurier and White are better options at the forward spots in a 2-3 zone. O'Connell just really isn't suited to play on the back line of a 2-3 zone. When Bagley comes back, I'd suspect that White's minutes will all but disappear as well, with DeLaurier and Bolden filling the vast majority of the reserve minutes.

rsvman
02-19-2018, 09:28 AM
WVU did the stall ball thing against Kansas and turned a 10 point lead into a 9 point loss with less than 5 minutes to go.

Despite the amount of kvetching that "stall ball" gets on these boards, generally speaking it works, although I wonder if the coaches have considered changing the parameters given the shrinking shot clot. With a 40-second shot clock, it worked really well. As we all know, though, the shot clock was decreased from 40 to 35, and then from 35 to 30 (both changes were a mistake, IMO, but that's a discussion for another day).

I still think there is benefit to "stall ball," but I do think that the margins and time at which "stall ball" is employed should be different now that the shot clock has been shortened.



FWIW, a couple of seasons ago I kept a running log of time remaining and margin at the time "stall ball" was started, along with final outcome: W, L, and margin. Over the course of that season, stall ball worked 100% of the time. The margin of victory was generally smaller than the margin at the time stall ball was employed, but interestingly, it was not always so. I think as fans we concern ourselves with margin of victory a lot more than the coaches do, as a general rule. Whether we win by 1 point or by 10 points doesn't really change the outcome of the game at all. It goes down as one more "W." Sure, it makes people nervous, but a win is a win. The unknown part of the equation is what would have happened had we not gone to stall ball? Maybe in some cases we would have ended up losing the game; we have no way of knowing.

moonpie23
02-19-2018, 09:48 AM
Completely disagree. His reentry disrupted the offense and defense. The team had been playing very well. There simply wasn't enough time to resynch the team. I thought it was a mistake at the time, before the loss, and still see it that way.

i totally agree.....nolan was running the point very well, and the team was rolling.......K was twixt a rock and a hard place........sit the #1 draft pick? damned if he did, damned if he didn't.....

jimsumner
02-19-2018, 10:14 AM
The best analogue to Irving '11, IMO, is what happened down the road in 1984. One of Dean Smith's best teams--Jordan, Perkins, Daugherty, et. al.--lost starting freshman point guard Kenny Smith in midseason due to a broken wrist.

Carolina retooled, with Steve Hale--a much different type of player than Smith--at point and ended the ACC regular-season 14-0.

Not too shabby.

But K. Smith recovered. And D. Smith made the same decision K made in 2011 and the only decision that could be made, IMO. Go with your most talented lineup.

And it backfired. Carolina couldn't retool quickly enough and lost in the Sweet Sixteen to a meh Indiana team. It wasn't the only reason for the loss-Jordan sat on the bench with two fouls much of the first half--but it was a key factor. And Dean Smith did second-guess himself for bringing back K. Smith.

I don't think Bagley has been out nearly long enough for either of these decisions to be replicated. But it can be a problem.

Before we go all Def-Con 4, let's look back at 1992. Bobby Hurley missed three weeks with a broken foot. When he returned, Grant Hill went down with a high-ankle sprain. Grant came back in the post-season and things seemed to work out.

So, it can be done.

camion
02-19-2018, 10:19 AM
The best analogue to Irving '11, IMO, is what happened down the road in 1984. One of Dean Smith's best teams--Jordan, Perkins, Daugherty, et. al.--lost starting freshman point guard Kenny Smith in midseason due to a broken wrist.

Carolina retooled, with Steve Hale--a much different type of player than Smith--at point and ended the ACC regular-season 14-0.

Not too shabby.

But K. Smith recovered. And D. Smith made the same decision K made in 2011 and the only decision that could be made, IMO. Go with your most talented lineup.

And it backfired. Carolina couldn't retool quickly enough and lost in the Sweet Sixteen to a meh Indiana team. It wasn't the only reason for the loss-Jordan sat on the bench with two fouls much of the first half--but it was a key factor. And Dean Smith did second-guess himself for bringing back K. Smith.

I don't think Bagley has been out nearly long enough for either of these decisions to be replicated. But it can be a problem.

Before we go all Def-Con 4, let's look back at 1992. Bobby Hurley missed three weeks with a broken foot. When he returned, Grant Hill went down with a high-ankle sprain. Grant came back in the post-season and things seemed to work out.

So, it can be done.

It really really helps to have a time machine so you can visit the future and see if your decision worked out.

Oh wait, we do have that kind of time machine. I mean the other kind where you can go back in time and change your decision after the message boards jump all over you. :)

uh_no
02-19-2018, 10:22 AM
Watch out, the ďrefs cannot be commented on ever, especially in a winĒ police are on the warpath lately...

It's more that people complain about the refs EVERY game and how their terribleness somehow negatively impacted duke. So what's the point? One might as well complain that the ball is orange and the hoops 10' high.

1) which is more likely, the refs negatively impacting duke....every game....or DBR posters having glasses that are so tinted blue that you would be drowning under niagara falls
2) given that these are professional referees that get regularly evaluated, if DBR thinks they stink, then DBRs standards are probably too high


feel free to post about the refs....but it's crying wolf at this point....white noise.

sagegrouse
02-19-2018, 10:32 AM
The best analogue to Irving '11, IMO, is what happened down the road in 1984. One of Dean Smith's best teams--Jordan, Perkins, Daugherty, et. al.--lost starting freshman point guard Kenny Smith in midseason due to a broken wrist.

Carolina retooled, with Steve Hale--a much different type of player than Smith--at point and ended the ACC regular-season 14-0.

Not too shabby.

But K. Smith recovered. And D. Smith made the same decision K made in 2011 and the only decision that could be made, IMO. Go with your most talented lineup.

And it backfired. Carolina couldn't retool quickly enough and lost in the Sweet Sixteen to a meh Indiana team. It wasn't the only reason for the loss-Jordan sat on the bench with two fouls much of the first half--but it was a key factor. And Dean Smith did second-guess himself for bringing back K. Smith.

I don't think Bagley has been out nearly long enough for either of these decisions to be replicated. But it can be a problem.

Before we go all Def-Con 4, let's look back at 1992. Bobby Hurley missed three weeks with a broken foot. When he returned, Grant Hill went down with a high-ankle sprain. Grant came back in the post-season and things seemed to work out.

So, it can be done.

Not to mention losing in the ACC semis to Duke.

UrinalCake
02-19-2018, 10:36 AM
Stall ball was absolutely the way to go in this game. The times that it drives me crazy are when we let the clock get too far down and then throw up a prayer. That turns into a wasted possession. But I didnít see that happening down the stretch of yesterdayís game. When Clemson made their run we were letting the shot clock get down to 12 or 10 and then initiating our offense and then getting good shots, we just missed them. I can remember a couple open threes that were missed and a couple layups, plus Duval going 1-2 from the line and Trent missing the front end of a 1 and 1. If you can milk the clock under 10 and then get off a good look, thatís about all you can ask for. In fact, the two big mistakes that I can remember actually came in possessions when we started too EARLY - one an entry pass from Grayson that got picked off (great play by the defense) and another where Grayson dribbled into traffic and lost a handle.

When you also factor in how tired the team was, I feel that if we had played our ďnormalĒ offense the last five minutes we would have a really good chance of losing.

devildeac
02-19-2018, 10:37 AM
It really really helps to have a time machine so you can visit the future and see if your decision worked out.

Oh wait, we do have that kind of time machine. I mean the other kind where you can go back in time and change your decision after the message boards jump all over you. :)

We already have one. Paging moonpie...

;)

jimsumner
02-19-2018, 11:08 AM
Let me go back to 1992 for a reintegrating-a-star-story.

Duke's default lineup that season was Christian Laettner, Grant Hill, Brian Davis, Thomas Hill and Bobby Hurley.

Hurley breaks a foot in a close loss at Carolina. Grant moves to the point and Tony Lang starts at the 4.

Grant hurts his foot about the time Hurley comes back. Kenny Blakeney actually started Hurley's first game back, a home game against UVA, IIRC, with Hurley coming in off the bench.

So, Lang continues to start.

Keep in mind that Grant and Lang were roommates and were and are very close.

Lang was playing well as a starter, better than he had been playing coming off the bench. He had a game-winning stick-back against Maryland.

So, when Grant was ready to come back, he went to Krzyzewski and suggested that he would be fine coming off the bench so that Lang could continue to start.

Which is what happened. For a few crucial weeks, Grant Hill became a sixth man. By choice. For the good of the team.

I'm not suggesting that Bagley come off the bench, rather that these things work best if there's buy-in from everyone and the team comes first.

Plus, it's always a good thing if Grant Hill is involved. :)

HereBeforeCoachK
02-19-2018, 11:10 AM
Let me go back to 1992 for a reintegrating-a-star-story.

Duke's default lineup that season was Christian Laettner, Grant Hill, Brian Davis, Thomas Hill and Bobby Hurley.

Hurley breaks a foot in a close loss at Carolina. Grant moves to the point and Tony Lang starts at the 4.

Grant hurts his foot about the time Hurley comes back. Kenny Blakeney actually started Hurley's first game back, a home game against UVA, IIRC, with Hurley coming in off the bench.

So, Lang continues to start.

Keep in mind that Grant and Lang were roommates and were and are very close.

Lang was playing well as a starter, better than he had been playing coming off the bench. He had a game-winning stick-back against Maryland.

So, when Grant was ready to come back, he went to Krzyzewski and suggested that he would be fine coming off the bench so that Lang could continue to start.

Which is what happened. For a few crucial weeks, Grant Hill became a sixth man. By choice. For the good of the team.

I'm not suggesting that Bagley come off the bench, rather that these things work best if there's buy-in from everyone and the team comes first.

Plus, it's always a good thing if Grant Hill is involved. :)

Wow, I had forgotten that Grant moved to sixth man for a while. I also think his first game at PG was at LSU and Shaq, if I'm not mistaken. Something tells me you will remember.

And yes, the Langs and Hills were good friends, the whole families, as I recall.

jimsumner
02-19-2018, 11:14 AM
Wow, I had forgotten that Grant moved to sixth man for a while. I also think his first game at PG was at LSU and Shaq, if I'm not mistaken. Something tells me you will remember.

And yes, the Langs and Hills were good friends, the whole families, as I recall.

Yes, At LSU and Shaq. Laettner had outplayed Shaq the previous season in Durham. Contrary to what people around here recall, Shaq outplayed Laettner for about 35 minutes in the rematch. But Laettner made some big plays down the stretch and Duke escaped Baton Rogue with a huge road win.

COYS
02-19-2018, 11:18 AM
This is my first season watching Duke games as a parent, and it has made for some interesting changes to how I view games. I have to watch them broken up between naps or early in the morning before the baby awakes. While I definitely lose some of the excitement of being in-the-moment with a game, I also feel more freedom to rewind and rewatch a possession when our defense works really well (or poorly) or take a second look at how Gary gets open for a three, etcetera. Itís fun to do that. Obviously, Clemson was missing some serious firepower due to injury, but I completely agree with everyone who says this was Dukeís best defensive performance of the season. The team was really locked in. Even when they made mistakes with their positioning, they were quick to recover. Most of the open shots they gave up were to either the weakest Clemson shooters or from locations (the middle of the zone) from which Clemson can do the least amount of damage. Clemson never had a stretch where they put together multiple possessions in which they looked comfortable.

Another thing I noticed is that while losing Bagley hurts, getting both Marques and Javin back at full strength has been a major boon. I think we might have underestimated just how much injuries to those two guys hurt our team. A lot of people have already (rightly) noted that this was one of Javinís best games. And itís true. His versatility and athleticism really amps up our defense when heís fully healthy and locked in. And Marques has looked sensational since returning, providing a little bit of offense off the bench, which this team could use. Neither one of these guys is a finished product, of course, but both seem to be healthy and comfortable with their roles. They are also big, strong bodies who helped us survive a very physical game and can do so again the next time we meet a team that tries to muscle us out of the game.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-19-2018, 11:28 AM
Yes, At LSU and Shaq. Laettner had outplayed Shaq the previous season in Durham. Contrary to what people around here recall, Shaq outplayed Laettner for about 35 minutes in the rematch. But Laettner made some big plays down the stretch and Duke escaped Baton Rogue with a huge road win.

Laett hit some cold blooded threes down the stretch as I remember....or maybe just one that I've seen replayed.

Also, you might be able to verify this, or shoot it down......but I heard a stat, not sure if it's true or not, that in his junior and senior seasons, in the second half of games when Duke was either tied or behind, that Laettner hit 80% of his 3p shots - in those particular situations.

OldPhiKap
02-19-2018, 11:32 AM
It's more that people complain about the refs EVERY game and how their terribleness somehow negatively impacted duke. So what's the point? One might as well complain that the ball is orange and the hoops 10' high.

1) which is more likely, the refs negatively impacting duke...every game...or DBR posters having glasses that are so tinted blue that you would be drowning under niagara falls
2) given that these are professional referees that get regularly evaluated, if DBR thinks they stink, then DBRs standards are probably too high


feel free to post about the refs...but it's crying wolf at this point...white noise.

The level of twerping this season has been wearisome

jimsumner
02-19-2018, 11:34 AM
Laett hit some cold blooded threes down the stretch as I remember...or maybe just one that I've seen replayed.

Also, you might be able to verify this, or shoot it down...but I heard a stat, not sure if it's true or not, that in his junior and senior seasons, in the second half of games when Duke was either tied or behind, that Laettner hit 80% of his 3p shots - in those particular situations.

Don't have access to those stats.

But Laettner was only 18-for-53 on 3s as a junior, so I suspect he can't have made many late-game clutch 3s that season.

But he was 54-for-97 as a senior, which is insane for anyone but especially so for a 6-11 player.

Of course, how often was that Duke team behind late in the game? So, maybe he was 4-for-5 that year. :)

lotusland
02-19-2018, 11:56 AM
It was the ONLY decision. Yes, chemistry was a risk, but he was the team's best player, and besides, he was clearly healthy and ready to play. You can't sit a kid in that situation. Ironically, he probably stays another year if he didn't play those 3 games at the end, or whatever it was...but you can't bench your best player and you can't screw the kid that way either.

I know Kyrie achieved almost legend status in his handful of games at Duke but senior Nolan was a better player imo because he played great defense. Kyrie did not and still doesnít . After all, Nolan was ACC POY and consensus 1st team AA that year. Kyrie was a remarkable Freshman with great offensive game. Idk that Duke could have overcome AZ without Kyrie but that was a very good Duke team without Kyrie largely because Nolan was so good after Kyrie went down.

lotusland
02-19-2018, 12:07 PM
It's more that people complain about the refs EVERY game and how their terribleness somehow negatively impacted duke. So what's the point? One might as well complain that the ball is orange and the hoops 10' high.

1) which is more likely, the refs negatively impacting duke...every game...or DBR posters having glasses that are so tinted blue that you would be drowning under niagara falls
2) given that these are professional referees that get regularly evaluated, if DBR thinks they stink, then DBRs standards are probably too high


feel free to post about the refs...but it's crying wolf at this point...white noise.

Yeah not to mention Duke fans are never going to any sympathy with the poor pitiful me routine considering our roster full of burger boys and extremely high profile. Not all fouls are called. Somed fouls are called in error. Sometimes we get an advantage and sometimes they get an advantage. Still the best team usually wins.

lotusland
02-19-2018, 12:14 PM
To my memory, Carter has been very consistent in Conference play but quite often has been MIA in the first half. It just means heís going to have a big 2nd half. I missed the first half but when I saw the halftime statsís I knew Carter was going to have a huge 2nd half.

DarkstarWahoo
02-19-2018, 12:23 PM
We had a similar situation with Justin Anderson in 2015 when he broke his finger and got appendicitis around the same time. He came back for the ACC tournament and went 0-2, 0-4, 4-6 (in the 1-16 game), 2-7. But he was either the best or second-best player on that team. He had to play.

kmspeaks
02-19-2018, 01:08 PM
It's more that people complain about the refs EVERY game and how their terribleness somehow negatively impacted duke.

The problem is that the quality of officiating is affecting the quality of the game. I don't watch much college basketball outside of Duke games anymore because even without a rooting interest it's frustrating to watch wrestling matches in the paint for post position while guards are officiated like QB's in practice jerseys. It's frustrating to watch a trapping/pressing team get lauded for "physical defense" while they push and grab ball handlers and cutters alike with impunity. It's frustrating to not know half to half, much less game to game what rules will actually be enforced. As for the bolded, I'm not on that train but there have been others around here whining about that and I agree with calling them on it.


2) given that these are professional referees that get regularly evaluated, if DBR thinks they stink, then DBRs standards are probably too high

If that evaluation process is anything like it is in other NCAA sports then it's as big a joke as Rashad McCants' dean's list award. In baseball, umpires who work NCAA tournament games are evaluated but they are no longer allowed to see that evaluation because umpires with the best evaluations were not always chosen for the next rounds and wanted to know why. Regional and Super Regional selections were highly influenced by conference assigners and transparency was removed from the system when their influence was questioned. With the money and other perks involved you would think there would be no shortage of competition for college basketball refs yet we're somehow stuck with the same incompetent guys year after year.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-19-2018, 02:36 PM
I know Kyrie achieved almost legend status in his handful of games at Duke but senior Nolan was a better player imo because he played great defense. Kyrie did not and still doesnít . After all, Nolan was ACC POY and consensus 1st team AA that year. Kyrie was a remarkable Freshman with great offensive game. Idk that Duke could have overcome AZ without Kyrie but that was a very good Duke team without Kyrie largely because Nolan was so good after Kyrie went down.

The NBA careers of the two players doesn't really support your theory. Besides, it does not matter. There was no no no no no way for Coach K to sit Kyrie in that situation. And there was no way we beat an Arizona team having the game of the century either. Moot point.....X 2.

dukelifer
02-19-2018, 03:31 PM
The NBA careers of the two players doesn't really support your theory. Besides, it does not matter. There was no no no no no way for Coach K to sit Kyrie in that situation. And there was no way we beat an Arizona team having the game of the century either. Moot point....X 2.

Not sure the NBA careers have anything to do with this. Nolan and Singler were both outstanding and experienced college players. All that said, Duke ran into a hot player, who greatly benefitted from that game only to also have a disappointing NBA career. .

WillJ
02-19-2018, 03:38 PM
Don't have access to those stats.

But Laettner was only 18-for-53 on 3s as a junior, so I suspect he can't have made many late-game clutch 3s that season.

But he was 54-for-97 as a senior, which is insane for anyone but especially so for a 6-11 player.

Of course, how often was that Duke team behind late in the game? So, maybe he was 4-for-5 that year. :)

Laettner was a career 26% 3-point shooter in the NBA......which is terrible by today's standards and not particularly good for the 90's, either. I never understood why he wasn't a better shooter in the pros, but perhaps that senior year excellence was really the outlier.

MChambers
02-19-2018, 04:02 PM
Let me go back to 1992 for a reintegrating-a-star-story.

Duke's default lineup that season was Christian Laettner, Grant Hill, Brian Davis, Thomas Hill and Bobby Hurley.

Hurley breaks a foot in a close loss at Carolina. Grant moves to the point and Tony Lang starts at the 4.

Grant hurts his foot about the time Hurley comes back. Kenny Blakeney actually started Hurley's first game back, a home game against UVA, IIRC, with Hurley coming in off the bench.

So, Lang continues to start.

Keep in mind that Grant and Lang were roommates and were and are very close.

Lang was playing well as a starter, better than he had been playing coming off the bench. He had a game-winning stick-back against Maryland.

So, when Grant was ready to come back, he went to Krzyzewski and suggested that he would be fine coming off the bench so that Lang could continue to start.

Which is what happened. For a few crucial weeks, Grant Hill became a sixth man. By choice. For the good of the team.

I'm not suggesting that Bagley come off the bench, rather that these things work best if there's buy-in from everyone and the team comes first.

Plus, it's always a good thing if Grant Hill is involved. :)

Didnít Grant continue to come off the bench until the NCAA Finals, when Brian Davis was hobbled by a badly sprained ankle?

jimsumner
02-19-2018, 04:13 PM
Didnít Grant continue to come off the bench until the NCAA Finals, when Brian Davis was hobbled by a badly sprained ankle?

Yes. I believe it was a knee, sprained by Davis when he was diving for a loose ball late in the IU game. Grant also fouled out, so little-used Marty Clark came in and knocked down 5-of-6 foul shots in the final minutes.

Lang and Grant started in the title game. Davis hobbled his way through 10 minutes or so. Had it not been the final game of the season, he would have sat it out.

Kedsy
02-19-2018, 04:14 PM
Laettner was a career 26% 3-point shooter in the NBA...which is terrible by today's standards and not particularly good for the 90's, either. I never understood why he wasn't a better shooter in the pros, but perhaps that senior year excellence was really the outlier.

Could be the fact that the NBA line is 4 feet further out than the (then) college line.

BandAlum83
02-19-2018, 04:16 PM
It's more that people complain about the refs EVERY game and how their terribleness somehow negatively impacted duke. So what's the point? One might as well complain that the ball is orange and the hoops 10' high.

1) which is more likely, the refs negatively impacting duke...every game...or DBR posters having glasses that are so tinted blue that you would be drowning under niagara falls
2) given that these are professional referees that get regularly evaluated, if DBR thinks they stink, then DBRs standards are probably too high


feel free to post about the refs...but it's crying wolf at this point...white noise.

All that being said, Clemson seemed to play the most physical game I've seen against Duke this year. There was HUGE disparity between the level of contact allowed inside (i.e., on Carter) and the degree of physicality allowed outside (i.e., the fouls called on Trent.

OTOH, if you watch the 2nd half again and focus on Grayson, you will be reminded of how JJ got mugged every where he went without the ball. I'm sure grayson had aches and pains all over his body. I wonder if he felt like a football player on a Monday (Sunday) morning!

On the plus side, it prepares them for the style of play Louisville may employ. I say may, because I haven't seem them play post-Pitino. Do they still play the same style?

superdave
02-19-2018, 04:39 PM
This is my first season watching Duke games as a parent, and it has made for some interesting changes to how I view games. I have to watch them broken up between naps or early in the morning before the baby awakes. While I definitely lose some of the excitement of being in-the-moment with a game, I also feel more freedom to rewind and rewatch a possession when our defense works really well (or poorly) or take a second look at how Gary gets open for a three, etcetera. Itís fun to do that. Obviously, Clemson was missing some serious firepower due to injury, but I completely agree with everyone who says this was Dukeís best defensive performance of the season. The team was really locked in. Even when they made mistakes with their positioning, they were quick to recover. Most of the open shots they gave up were to either the weakest Clemson shooters or from locations (the middle of the zone) from which Clemson can do the least amount of damage. Clemson never had a stretch where they put together multiple possessions in which they looked comfortable.


Start brainwashing your kid now. Seriously. Condition them to watch hoops with you and to like Duke. Treats, Duke gear, all that stuff. It works and will buy you more of a game watching window.

MartyClark
02-19-2018, 04:44 PM
Start brainwashing your kid now. Seriously. Condition them to watch hoops with you and to like Duke. Treats, Duke gear, all that stuff. It works and will buy you more of a game watching window.

Yeah, agree. I didn't go to Duke, have loved them since the Hurley-Laettner days. I have twin boys, 34 years old, both went to good schools but not Duke. We hit a Duke game or two every year. Great family tradition. My wife of 40 years is actively involved, largely because of crushes on Tyus Jones and Grayson Allen. We are all living vicariously but it is great fun.

sagegrouse
02-19-2018, 04:48 PM
Stall ball was absolutely the way to go in this game. The times that it drives me crazy are when we let the clock get too far down and then throw up a prayer. That turns into a wasted possession. But I didnít see that happening down the stretch of yesterdayís game. When Clemson made their run we were letting the shot clock get down to 12 or 10 and then initiating our offense and then getting good shots, we just missed them. I can remember a couple open threes that were missed and a couple layups, plus Duval going 1-2 from the line and Trent missing the front end of a 1 and 1. If you can milk the clock under 10 and then get off a good look, thatís about all you can ask for. In fact, the two big mistakes that I can remember actually came in possessions when we started too EARLY - one an entry pass from Grayson that got picked off (great play by the defense) and another where Grayson dribbled into traffic and lost a handle.

When you also factor in how tired the team was, I feel that if we had played our ďnormalĒ offense the last five minutes we would have a really good chance of losing.

I have found our "stall ball" unaesthetic and, frankly, scary. While I don;t doubt the stats that it is effective, I found our success rate on offense to be low on those possessions where we delay initiating the offense. There was one exception: the 2010 team (Jon, Nolan, Kyle) seemed to be really good at holding the ball and then scoring efficiently.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'Yeah, I know, we could have used a couple of more scores against Butler in the last three minutes -- but there were some obvious fouls not called'

HereBeforeCoachK
02-19-2018, 04:59 PM
Yeah, agree. I didn't go to Duke, have loved them since the Hurley-Laettner days. I have twin boys, 34 years old, both went to good schools but not Duke. We hit a Duke game or two every year. Great family tradition. My wife of 40 years is actively involved, largely because of crushes on Tyus Jones and Grayson Allen. We are all living vicariously but it is great fun.

dittos here...I go back to the days of Bill Foster with Gene Banks, Mike Gminski and Kenny Dennard. My kids caught the love of Duke hoops and it's part of what we text each other about now that they're grown and gone. I recommended they watch "I Hate Christian Laettner" and "The Laettner Game" documentaries and said when you see those, you'll know when Duke became the Duke of today...as in the hated Duke, the powerful Duke, etc.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-19-2018, 05:05 PM
Not sure the NBA careers have anything to do with this. Nolan and Singler were both outstanding and experienced college players. All that said, Duke ran into a hot player, who greatly benefitted from that game only to also have a disappointing NBA career. .

Well, he was more than hot. He was, like so many players are, gunning for Duke as his super bowl. He was at a level of energy and emotion he had never attained before. Or since. He and his team fell totally flat in the next round.

That routinely happens with NC State's players, Virginia Tech's, Miami's and some others, not to mention their fans too.

It's really amazing how Duke has become so hated nationally, and so often is the focus of fans and players from teams we don't even see very often. I remember one game UConn students wore "Duck Fuke" tee shirts to a game, and it wasn't even against Duke. This whole notion of always being "targeted" is indeed a valid and major component of Duke basketball....much more so than the other few programs who have similar success. It's more than just the success. There is an irrational and special hatred of Duke.

Then again, I imagine on this board, this is all very well known, documented, and discussed...

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-19-2018, 05:08 PM
dittos here...I go back to the days of Bill Foster with Gene Banks, Mike Gminski and Kenny Dennard. My kids caught the love of Duke hoops and it's part of what we text each other about now that they're grown and gone. I recommended they watch "I Hate Christian Laettner" and "The Laettner Game" documentaries and said when you see those, you'll know when Duke became the Duke of today...as in the hated Duke, the powerful Duke, etc.

That 30 For 30 on Laettner really opened the eyes of My Tar Heel Neighbor. He bought into the party line of "privileged kid with an entitlement complex." Not much could be further from the truth. He worked HARD to get to be the best college player ever (IMHO) and wasn't given anything.

He was, also, a lot of words you can't use on this family friendly board, but he was OUR son of a gun.

House G
02-19-2018, 05:09 PM
Yes, At LSU and Shaq. Laettner had outplayed Shaq the previous season in Durham. Contrary to what people around here recall, Shaq outplayed Laettner for about 35 minutes in the rematch. But Laettner made some big plays down the stretch and Duke escaped Baton Rogue with a huge road win.

Laettner did outplay Shaq in Durham, but a big reason for this was Shaqís supporting cast (or lack thereof). LSUís guards were awful that year and Duke triple-teamed Shaq most of the game. In Baton Rouge, the Duke comeback was fueled by two late 3ís by Laettner and a large dose of hack-a-Shaq.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-19-2018, 05:10 PM
That 30 For 30 on Laettner really opened the eyes of My Tar Heel Neighbor. He bought into the party line of "privileged kid with an entitlement complex." Not much could be further from the truth. He worked HARD to get to be the best college player ever (IMHO) and wasn't given anything.

He was, also, a lot of words you can't use on this family friendly board, but he was OUR son of a gun.

Yeah, the "I Hate Laettner" show I thought really made fools of the haters. The haters all liked Grant Hill, and he was one of the richest kids to ever play for Duke or Carolina, and certainly came from much more money than Laettner or Hurley did. As Brian Davis said, he and Laett were more street than the Fab Five.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-19-2018, 05:11 PM
It's really amazing how Duke has become so hated nationally, and so often is the focus of fans and players from teams we don't even see very often. I remember one game UConn students wore "Duck Fuke" tee shirts to a game, and it wasn't even against Duke.

Maryland fans lacked that level of witticism.

Kedsy
02-19-2018, 06:01 PM
Maryland fans lacked that level of witticism.

I remember a game I attended at Cole Field House in 1980. The Terp fans unfurled a big banner that said, "Nuke Duke." I thought it was pretty clever of them until the next week when I was watching a game on TV and the camera rolled past a big banner that said, "Nuke Carolina." True story.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-19-2018, 07:32 PM
I remember a game I attended at Cole Field House in 1980. The Terp fans unfurled a big banner that said, "Nuke Duke." I thought it was pretty clever of them until the next week when I was watching a game on TV and the camera rolled past a big banner that said, "Nuke Carolina." True story.

And in 1980, Carolina, NC State and Maryland were still the dominant programs, though Duke had burst on the national scene in 1978 and were still very good in 79 and 80. I think in 92 is when Duke became the top program in the nation, surpassed Carolina nationally, and they've had that mantle off an on since then.

gep
02-19-2018, 10:37 PM
Let me go back to 1992 for a reintegrating-a-star-story.

Duke's default lineup that season was Christian Laettner, Grant Hill, Brian Davis, Thomas Hill and Bobby Hurley.

Hurley breaks a foot in a close loss at Carolina. Grant moves to the point and Tony Lang starts at the 4.

Grant hurts his foot about the time Hurley comes back. Kenny Blakeney actually started Hurley's first game back, a home game against UVA, IIRC, with Hurley coming in off the bench.

So, Lang continues to start.

Keep in mind that Grant and Lang were roommates and were and are very close.

Lang was playing well as a starter, better than he had been playing coming off the bench. He had a game-winning stick-back against Maryland.

So, when Grant was ready to come back, he went to Krzyzewski and suggested that he would be fine coming off the bench so that Lang could continue to start.

Which is what happened. For a few crucial weeks, Grant Hill became a sixth man. By choice. For the good of the team.

I'm not suggesting that Bagley come off the bench, rather that these things work best if there's buy-in from everyone and the team comes first.

Plus, it's always a good thing if Grant Hill is involved. :)

I am also not suggesting that Marvin come off the bench... but like Carlos Boozer (if I recall correctly)... did not start when he first came back after his injury... but excelled anyway... and we know what the final result was. GO DUKE!!!

BandAlum83
02-20-2018, 02:51 AM
I am also not suggesting that Marvin come off the bench... but like Carlos Boozer (if I recall correctly)... did not start when he first came back after his injury... but excelled anyway... and we know what the final result was. GO DUKE!!!

When Ryan Kelly came back, didn't he start? If I recall, didn't he score like 83 points?

COYS
02-20-2018, 07:03 AM
When Ryan Kelly came back, didn't he start? If I recall, didn't he score like 83 points?

And we needed every single one of them. That was the rematch against a Miami team that had absolutely waxed us down in Southern Florida. Ryan Kelly was unstoppable and it gave us just enough to beat a very very good Miami team in Cameron. Ryan never looked totally comfortable after that game, though. In my opinion, that 2013 team was a healthy Seth and a healthy Ryan away from another Final Four and is generally underrated (it had an elite defense before Ryanís injury). With both of those guys operating at full strength, maybe we have enough to beat Louisville.

Troublemaker
02-20-2018, 07:18 AM
And we needed every single one of them. That was the rematch against a Miami team that had absolutely waxed us down in Southern Florida. Ryan Kelly was unstoppable and it gave us just enough to beat a very very good Miami team in Cameron. Ryan never looked totally comfortable after that game, though. In my opinion, that 2013 team was a healthy Seth and a healthy Ryan away from another Final Four and is generally underrated (it had an elite defense before Ryanís injury). With both of those guys operating at full strength, maybe we have enough to beat Louisville.

2013 and 2011 remain the biggest regrets of the Injury Era (which may still be ongoing -- please don't hurt us, basketball gods. No jinx, no jinx, knock on wood.) Because we actually saw those teams dominate at full-strength and deserve to be ranked #1. Whereas with 2016 and 2017, we were never really dominant. 2017 won the ACC championship but did it with a bunch of stirring comebacks. And 2016 probably didn't have the talent to be the best team even if Amile were healthy.

killerleft
02-20-2018, 08:15 AM
Well there's merits and eye test, and on the merits, no doubt it's a good day.
That said, we're not looking anywhere close to as good as UNC is looking lately, vis a vis the eye test. And of course, it's still too early to peak. As we found out last year, even peaking in the ACC tournament can be a very bad thing. The Heels may be peaking a tad too soon.

I'm not giving up that beautiful ACC Tournament title so we can supposedly 'peak' later. Big wins, first team to win four straight. Harry finally came up big,Tatum shone bright...

uh_no
02-20-2018, 08:40 AM
I'm not giving up that beautiful ACC Tournament title so we can supposedly 'peak' later. Big wins, first team to win four straight. Harry finally came up big,Tatum shone bright...

I also don't buy that "peaking" is a real thing....it makes sense in endurance/strength sports, where your body can only maintain top physical performance for a relatively short amount of time....but even for that, we're talking 4-6 weeks of "peak" performance. How in shape a team is is GENERALLY not the limiting factor of a team's performance.

it's not like UNC is good and playing now, and suddenly they'll forget how to play if they've played well for so long. "peaking" is simply a narrative thrown out to fit something observed in hindsight to some pattern

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-20-2018, 08:43 AM
I'm not giving up that beautiful ACC Tournament title so we can supposedly 'peak' later. Big wins, first team to win four straight. Harry finally came up big,Tatum shone bright...

I agree. I do think teams can peak too early (we have seen Duke teams in the past that look unbeatable in November and December), but I don't think the week before the NCAA tournament is in the same group.

Peaking in March is good.