Marvin Bagley III Knee Vigil

[cato]

I am a huge fan of this young man. I will be up waiting for news.

[duke4ever19]

It's officially vigil time?

[mattman91]

It's officially vigil time?

Is this a vigil vigil?

[subzero02]

I've heard that he's likely to be back for the Louisville game.

He's been officially ruled out for the Clemson game.

[scottdude8]

I've heard that he's likely to be back for the Louisville game.

He's been officially ruled out for the Clemson game.

Can you say “where” you heard that? That’s always key, lol.

If that’s true, though, I think that just shows this is being super cautious, which I’m fine with. We want him healthy come tourney time. And the side effect of Grayson regaining his swagger while Bagley has been out has minimized the impact of his absence.

[dukelifer]

Can you say “where” you heard that? That’s always key, lol.

If that’s true, though, I think that just shows this is being super cautious, which I’m fine with. We want him healthy come tourney time. And the side effect of Grayson regaining his swagger while Bagley has been out has minimized the impact of his absence.

It is here

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/dukes-marvin-bagley-to-miss-third-consecutive-game-sunday-with-knee-sprain/

[cato]

Is this a vigil vigil?

The vigil vigil has ended. And it ended sadly.

As a wise man once said to a Wookiee: I got a bad feeling about this.

[MarkD83]

Like I said in a different thread. The team Duke now puts on the court is the one we were excited about in July. Also Grayson is now taking control. I would love bagley back on the court but a senior lead talented team that is finding its mojo works for me

[subzero02]

Like I said in a different thread. The team Duke now puts on the court is the one we were excited about in July. Also Grayson is now taking control. I would love bagley back on the court but a senior lead talented team that is finding its mojo works for me

While our team without Bagley is capable of beating anyone in the country, I am not going to pretend that this situation works for me...

[-bdbd]

The vigil vigil has ended. And it ended sadly.

As a wise man once said to a Wookiee: I got a bad feeling about this.

Yeah, and it turned out pretty well for Han and company too... :cool:

[scottdude8]

It is here

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/dukes-marvin-bagley-to-miss-third-consecutive-game-sunday-with-knee-sprain/

I was more talking about the “back against Louisville” part...

[kAzE]

Hope Bags gets well soon. Not a fan of the announcements that he'll be out or when he'll be back though. Where's our sense of gamesmanship? Keep these guys guessing. Every practice minute spent preparing for Bagley is another minute spent not prepping for the rest of the team.

[Troublemaker]

Hope Bags gets well soon. Not a fan of the announcements that he'll be out or when he'll be back though. Where's our sense of gamesmanship? Keep these guys guessing. Every practice minute spent preparing for Bagley is another minute spent not prepping for the rest of the team.

But Clemson announced that Mitchell was out. We have to do them a solid in return.

[MarkD83]

While our team without Bagley is capable of beating anyone in the country, I am not going to pretend that this situation works for me...

It is the hand we have been dealt just like boozer many years ago. Sooo. When bagley DOES come back we will be even harder to beat

[billy]

But Clemson announced that Mitchell was out. We have to do them a solid in return.

Tried to spork but had to yada yada...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It is the hand we have been dealt just like boozer many years ago. Sooo. When bagley DOES come back we will be even harder to beat

The Boozer injury in 2001 was something...late season, against Maryland, and not sure if he would come back. Went to Chapel Hill and won big the next game. Dunleavy developed, Casey Sanders contributed, and Boozer improved his footwork while out. I think it was Wojo who worked with him on it.

As they worked him back in the lineup slowly, they became a better team. I don't think Duke wins the 2001 title, or Boozer has the NBA career he has, without that injury. Funny how things work out sometimes...

[El_Diablo]

So I guess it’s safe to say that the “precautionary measure” report was BS.

[devilsince1977]

So I guess it’s safe to say that the “precautionary measure” report was BS.

NO! But it is safe to say that a 7ft teenager; getting ready to make 10's of millions; is being held out of games due to a knee injury. It has been less than 2 weeks since the injury happened. Why in the heck would he be brought back before he is completely healthy? That sounds exactly like a "precautionary measure". The only BS is you accusing the Duke staff of dishonesty.

[weezie]

Whoa! Wait a minute, that sounds a bit harsh!

El Diablo is a level-headed person here, much respect.

[subzero02]

The Boozer injury in 2001 was something...late season, against Maryland, and not sure if he would come back. Went to Chapel Hill and won big the next game. Dunleavy developed, Casey Sanders contributed, and Boozer improved his footwork while out. I think it was Wojo who worked with him on it.

As they worked him back in the lineup slowly, they became a better team. I don't think Duke wins the 2001 title, or Boozer has the NBA career he has, without that injury. Funny how things work out sometimes...

Boozer went out on senior night with a broken foot, his 2nd since enrolling at Duke. He missed 1 regular season game and 5 post season games(ACC tournament and the first weekend of the NCAA tournament.). Boozer came back for our 3rd and 4th round NCAA games vs. UCLA and USC and played 22 minutes each night. He played 25 minutes in a 19 point effort vs. Not our rival and he played 30 minutes in a 12 point effort vs. Zona. We won every game in the 2001 tournament by double digits and I think coach K inserting Duhon into the starting lineup was a huge part of our success but I don't think we win it all without Boozer's return. I remember coach K trusted Duhon as a freshman at point guard because Chris didn't force things and he "valued the basketball". I like Grayson's steadying presence at PG but I think he can continue to play at a high level when Bagley comes back on Wednesday.

As far as Boozer's professional success is concerned, he's always had great footwork, I dont know how much 3 weeks of training while rehabbing a fracture would help. I think dropping from 280 to 260 is why he was a force in the NBA. He became more explosive and agile.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I don't mind Bagley playing it safe. I'm a Carter fan myself. I think we'd be in far more trouble if he were the one injured.
Love, Ima

[El_Diablo]

NO! But it is safe to say that a 7ft teenager; getting ready to make 10's of millions; is being held out of games due to a knee injury. It has been less than 2 weeks since the injury happened. Why in the heck would he be brought back before he is completely healthy? That sounds exactly like a "precautionary measure". The only BS is you accusing the Duke staff of dishonesty.

You think missing 3+ games in the heart of the ACC schedule is just a precautionary measure? It’s not like this is week 17 of the NFL regular season after we have already wrapped up home field advantage. It’s not just a preseason game. If he is indeed out again tomorrow, no, I don’t really feel that the disclosure thus far has accurately communicated the severity of his injury. I don’t say this to denigrate the integrity of the Duke staff (because I would be all for a little ambiguity if it gives us even the slightest edge against our opponents)...I am just pointing out that this sounds like it is worse than we were initially led to believe, and we might want to stop pretending that he is healthy enough to play but is just repeatedly sitting out meaningful games as a “precaution.”

EDIT: Maybe everyone else here figured he would be out for a while from the outset, and I just read into the “precautionary measure” language a little too optimistically at the time.

[gofurman]

Tried to spork but had to yada yada...

Right. If Brownell announces his guy isn't playing then be his equal and announce if Bagley is playing. WOULD have been Low class to hide your hand while the other team announced their status - glad bagley status was announced by Duke

[tbyers11]

You think missing 3+ games in the heart of the ACC schedule is just a precautionary measure? It’s not like this is week 17 of the NFL regular season after we have already wrapped up home field advantage. It’s not just a preseason game. If he is indeed out again tomorrow, no, I don’t really feel that the disclosure thus far has accurately communicated the severity of his injury. I don’t say this to denigrate the integrity of the Duke staff (because I would be all for a little ambiguity if it gives us even the slightest edge against our opponents)...I am just pointing out that this sounds like it is worse than we were initially led to believe, and we might want to stop pretending that he is healthy enough to play but is just repeatedly sitting out meaningful games as a “precaution.”

I have had mild knee sprains that take 1-2 weeks to feel better. We are only 9 days from the UNC game. When I heard the diagnosis of knee sprain (not bruise or contusion) I figured Bagley would be out a minimum of 2 games.

We can argue about the semantics of precautionary (that's what we do here after all) but in my book 1-2 weeks is still precautionary. If he isn't back by Louisville then I'll wonder what precautionary actually meant.

[El_Diablo]

I have had mild knee sprains that take 1-2 weeks to feel better. We are only 9 days from the UNC game. When I heard the diagnosis of knee sprain (not bruise or contusion) I figured Bagley would be out a minimum of 2 games.

We can argue about the semantics of precautionary (that's what we do here after all) but in my book 1-2 weeks is still pretty precautionary. If he isn't back by Louisville then I'll wonder what precautionary actually meant.

Yeah, maybe it’s just semantics. I guess I just took issue with the “precautionary measure” language (which implies that he was healthy enough to play but was being held out only as a precaution).

[brlftz]

Didn't realize he hurt it in the first half of the UNC game. Might explain his relative lack of production eh?

[MarkD83]

The discussion about recovery time and questioning the integrity of the coaching staff assumes that everyone recovers from injuries in the same time frame. Let's see ankle = 2 games ; knee = 3 games; foot = 8 games. When a doctor looks at these injuries they give a player a rehab routine (rest, lift weights, etc) for a period of time then they reassess. No one knows the exact time for recovery only the time table to the next reassessment

[Devilwin]

Certainly we don't want to rush it. K said after the VaTech game that he was getting better, but does that mean sooner or later. If he's not ready I don't want to see him taking a chance of injuring it further. Seems though we've been on this horse before, or maybe I am just paranoid...:confused:

[Bluedevil114]

The discussion about recovery time and questioning the integrity of the coaching staff assumes that everyone recovers from injuries in the same time frame. Let's see ankle = 2 games ; knee = 3 games; foot = 8 games. When a doctor looks at these injuries they give a player a rehab routine (rest, lift weights, etc) for a period of time then they reassess. No one knows the exact time for recovery only the time table to the next reassessment

Totally agree with this statement. It can also mean that we are 2-0 without Bagley and playing an undermanned Clemson so precautionary can be extended. If we lost the last two games and his replacements played horrible, maybe Marvin is back today.

[budwom]

my personal opinion is that it's a fool's errand to try and interpret staff comments about injuries. We'll know Bagley's back when we see him on the court.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

my personal opinion is that it's a fool's errand to try and interpret staff comments about injuries. We'll know Bagley's back when we see him on the court.

^^^
This guy has been watching Duke basketball for a long time. I can tell.

[camion]

my personal opinion is that it's a fool's errand to try and interpret staff comments about injuries. We'll know Bagley's back when we see him on the court.

But this is an internet message board so...

we can tag team these errands. :)

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, maybe it’s just semantics. I guess I just took issue with the “precautionary measure” language (which implies that he was healthy enough to play but was being held out only as a precaution).

I can understand the frustration.

Something similar JUST happened with Marques. For those that listen to the games on the radio (or at least the pregame/postgame stuff), you know that Marques was -- according to the staff -- really close to playing @NCSU, which was his first game missed. But somehow, he went on to miss 6 additional games with his knee injury.

[wavedukefan70s]

A sprained ankle can take a while to heal.i assume a sprained knee is no different.Mr Carter is more than up for the challenge.bolden is playing solid .
we have no problems.😁

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I'm thinking we may have already seen the last of Marvin, bless his heart. There is already enough film on him for the pros to see. His stats are good. He really has no vested interest in being a Duke legend. His dad is probably thinking this is enough to secure his future so he should call it a day. I'm surprised more blue chippers don't play it that way. The way things are going I bet that's the trend going forward with many OADs.
Love, Ima

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm thinking we may have already seen the last of Marvin, bless his heart. There is already enough film on him for the pros to see. His stats are good. He really has no vested interest in being a Duke legend. His dad is probably thinking this is enough to secure his future so he should call it a day. I'm surprised more blue chippers don't play it that way. The way things are going I bet that's the trend going forward with many OADs.
Love, Ima

Gosh I hope you are wrong, for several reasons.

[slower]

It is the hand we have been dealt just like boozer many years ago. Sooo. When bagley DOES come back we will be even harder to beat
Unless it's like Kyrie's return after his injury, where the team had established an identity without him that was working very well.

[Bob Green]

I'm thinking we may have already seen the last of Marvin, bless his heart. Love, Ima

It is premature to say he will not return. I confident he will be back playing. The opportunity to participate in March Madness is special.

[arnie]

I'm thinking we may have already seen the last of Marvin, bless his heart. There is already enough film on him for the pros to see. His stats are good. He really has no vested interest in being a Duke legend. His dad is probably thinking this is enough to secure his future so he should call it a day. I'm surprised more blue chippers don't play it that way. The way things are going I bet that's the trend going forward with many OADs.
Love, Ima

Whether we like it or not, the above is a fair assessment. Marvin’s immediate goal should be a top 3 pick in the draft; why not shut it down if the injury is nagging. If AOC had a similar injury, his decision to play based on immediate goals would likely be different.

[gofurman]

Whether we like it or not, the above is a fair assessment. Marvin’s immediate goal should be a top 3 pick in the draft; why not shut it down if the injury is nagging. If AOC had a similar injury, his decision to play based on immediate goals would likely be different.

B Did some warm ups at Clemson. That From a student here who watched the early stuff. Said he ran layups and then changed clothes - 2nd hand information. Decent information though. He was texting his dad with this information while watching early run through

[Troublemaker]

Nah, if he's healthy, he'll play. These guys are too competitive not to.

We have this silly conversation every year. It's always just a way to passive-aggressively say "OADs don't care about Duke, just their draft status."

But yeah, he'll be back when healthy.

[arnie]

B Did some warm ups at Clemson. That From a student here who watched the early stuff. Said he ran layups and then changed clothes - 2nd hand information. Decent information though. He was texting his dad with this information while watching early run through
Thanks; would be curious if he was in anyway favoring his bad knee.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Whether we like it or not, the above is a fair assessment. Marvin’s immediate goal should be a top 3 pick in the draft; why not shut it down if the injury is nagging. If AOC had a similar injury, his decision to play based on immediate goals would likely be different.

Fair point, but players like Grant Hill, Michael Jordan, and many others point to the college memories as their most cherished hoops memories...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Whether we like it or not, the above is a fair assessment. Marvin’s immediate goal should be a top 3 pick in the draft; why not shut it down if the injury is nagging. If AOC had a similar injury, his decision to play based on immediate goals would likely be different.

If this becomes the new reality of OAD players, I will be wholeheartedly on the bandwagon to not recruit those kids. To be clear, I haven't seen any reason to doubt the dedication of these kids to date. But if this were true I would sour (even more) on the process.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

If this becomes the new reality of OAD players, I will be wholeheartedly on the bandwagon to not recruit those kids. To be clear, I haven't seen any reason to doubt the dedication of these kids to date. But if this were true I would sour (even more) on the process.

Yeah, and that situation would take care of itself....the schools most likely to get OAD are schools that look at anything short of a Final Four as a bit of a failure....Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, NC, etc.......and if shutting it down after a few highlight reel games is the norm, no reason for those schools to offer them.

[22JumpShots]

I'm thinking we may have already seen the last of Marvin, bless his heart. There is already enough film on him for the pros to see. His stats are good. He really has no vested interest in being a Duke legend. His dad is probably thinking this is enough to secure his future so he should call it a day. I'm surprised more blue chippers don't play it that way. The way things are going I bet that's the trend going forward with many OADs.
Love, Ima


Whether we like it or not, the above is a fair assessment. Marvin’s immediate goal should be a top 3 pick in the draft; why not shut it down if the injury is nagging. If AOC had a similar injury, his decision to play based on immediate goals would likely be different.

Come on guys and gals....it's a sprain. Key word there. Not broken, torn, detached, severed, backwards, compound, etc etc.

He's coming back. Plus he did it in a game, and I assume was evaluated, and then kept playing and finished the game!

Coach has said plenty of times. No need to rush it. Need = key word. We have a handful of regular season games left, and we are sitting decent for tournament standings.

This Clemson team is down right now, and if Coach thinks we can win without Marvin, keep him resting then. We don't need him right at the moment. We need for the others to solidify their roles and lock in. Marvin has done that already. When he comes back, we should be firing on all cylinders.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I'm an old lady. I don't drink much of the Koolaid anymore. I'd love to be wrong but, just color me skeptic.
Love, Ima

[22JumpShots]

I'm an old lady. I don't drink much of the Koolaid anymore. I'd love to be wrong but, just color me skeptic.
Love, Ima

With age comes wisdom! Nothing wrong with skepticism. Perhaps I have been overly colored in optimism. I just can't imagine Marvin is cool with going 3/4 of the way to the top of basketball's highest mountain while his brothers push on while at times needing his help.

[construe]

I'm an old lady. I don't drink much of the Koolaid anymore. I'd love to be wrong but, just color me skeptic.
Love, Ima

I'm generally a skeptic, too (or more often a cynic), but I agree with Toublemaker here: if Harry Giles actually ended up playing regular minutes at the end of the season...after all he'd been through...I think we see Bagley again (if the injury really is not serious, of course).

But I also agree that in the era of OAD, K really has to consider recruits' future professional goals and not just what's best for Duke right now. Maybe that's always been the case, but it seems even more so lately.

[subzero02]

Bagley will be back. He's a competitor... and more specifically, he's a competitor with an insurance policy that's worth millions of dollars.

[Rich]

Bagley will be back. He's a competitor... and more specifically, he's a competitor with an insurance policy that's worth millions of dollars.

There's a thread on here somewhere that debunks the myth that these kids have such insurance policies because the premiums are so outrageously high.

[UrinalCake]

The difference between the #1 pick and the #3 pick is about $4 million over three years. Bagley coming back and playing well could very well be the difference between him being picked 3 versus 1. No guarantees either way, but I’d say he has plenty of financial incentive to come back, in addition to the aforementioned motivation of just being a competitor.

[Duke95]

There's a thread on here somewhere that debunks the myth that these kids have such insurance policies because the premiums are so outrageously high.

What? These kids do have them. The school pays the premium for it.

At this point, there's little reason for Bagley to return. He's proven himself and the incremental benefits of taking such risk is relatively small. Sure, as a fan, it would be fun to have him back, but as a rational observer, what's the point?

[chrishoke]

What? These kids do have them. The school pays the premium for it.


K confirmed this at the blue devil club lunch Friday.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

What? These kids do have them. The school pays the premium for it.

At this point, there's little reason for Bagley to return. He's proven himself and the incremental benefits of taking such risk is relatively small. Sure, as a fan, it would be fun to have him back, but as a rational observer, what's the point?

Is everything with you a bottom line business decision? I bet you're a real riot on vacation.....

[Duke95]

Is everything with you a bottom line business decision? I bet you're a real riot on vacation...

Gary Trent: "It's a business decision."
Trevon Duval: "It's a business decision."
Marvin Bagley: "It's a business decision."

It's not just me saying it, sport. The players know the deal.

[budwom]

so, about the knee...K said (FWIW) post game that the knee is improving, he does not know when Bagley will return, but "it'll be soon" (espn article).
One is now left to one's own interpretation of the word "soon."

[Troublemaker]

What? These kids do have them. The school pays the premium for it.

At this point, there's little reason for Bagley to return. He's proven himself and the incremental benefits of taking such risk is relatively small. Sure, as a fan, it would be fun to have him back, but as a rational observer, what's the point?

So when Bagley returns, he'll be making an irrational decision? I'd love for you to tell him that to his face.

[ipatent]

Bagley will return when healthy.... he's a competitor who takes these games seriously. You can see it in his body language when he is on the court. For the cynical minded, it's not a given that it would be a good business decision to call it quits. The NBA execs like competitors as well.

[Duke95]

For the cynical minded, it's not a given that it would be a good business decision to call it quits. The NBA execs like competitors as well.

Whether or not it's a good vs. bad business decision depends on the analysis of risk vs. reward. But it's still a business decision.

[ipatent]

Whether or not it's a good vs. bad business decision depends on the analysis of risk vs. reward. But it's still a business decision.

The best business decision is to be team-minded as long as the player is in college.

[chrishoke]

Whether or not it's a good vs. bad business decision depends on the analysis of risk vs. reward. But it's still a business decision.

Agreed, but not exclusively a business decision. There is in fact, more to life.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

There's a thread on here somewhere that debunks the myth that these kids have such insurance policies because the premiums are so outrageously high.

On the contrary, no other authority than Coach K was asked about insurance policies the other day at a semi-private membership meeting. He said both the University and the parents (with a deferred payment plan) take out insurance policies that pay the kids if they get injured and it costs them draft spots, like "dropping from 3 to 18" because of an injury, not to mention their entire career. The rules on what the U can provide for the kids has changed dramatically from when Nolan and Jon Scheyer were in school. I can't say more. There is no link to provide.

Here's to hoping that Marvin makes it back onto the court when he's healthy enough to play without pain or fear of injury, and that that time is very soon! http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Agreed, but not exclusively a business decision. There is in fact, more to life.

THANK YOU!!! And there's more to business even than just hard core biz decisions.....and I'm a business owner, and many decisions are made without an eye on the bottom line, even in business.

[BlueTeuf]

My perspective: It's a business decision if and when you make the decision based on business principles.

A third party doesn't get to define it. A third party could say, "If I were to make a business decision, then my assessment is..."

Example: I left a job so my wife didn't have to leave hers. Did I make a business decision? Only a 3rd party trying to count my dollars would assert such.

[uh_no]

My perspective: It's a business decision if and when you make the decision based on business principles.

A third party doesn't get to define it. A third party could say, "If I were to make a business decision, then my assessment is..."

Example: I left a job so my wife didn't have to leave hers. Did I make a business decision? Only a 3rd party trying to count my dollars would assert such.

I have to agree here. The whole premise of the debate is a bit silly. Businesses make business decisions because they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders. Other people don't...because they, well, don't, and they can consider other things...like whether they want to spend another year in school or because of familial considerations. As soon as you start to factor such things into a decision, it's no longer a business decision.

[53n206]

My perspective: It's a business decision if and when you make the decision based on business principles.

A third party doesn't get to define it. A third party could say, "If I were to make a business decision, then my assessment is..."

Example: I left a job so my wife didn't have to leave hers. Did I make a business decision? Only a 3rd party trying to count my dollars would assert such.

If your wife made more money at her job than you did at your job it certainly would be a business decision. Of course other factors could exist.

[camion]

If your wife made more money at her job than you did at your job it certainly would be a business decision. Of course other factors could exist.

I really don't think it's that simple.

[uh_no]

If your wife made more money at her job than you did at your job it certainly would be a business decision. Of course other factors could exist.

If you're considering anything other than value (which can be either short or long term, mind you), then by definition, it's not a business decision. period. Businesses are legally obligated to make decisions which drive value, therefore that's what a business decision IS. OP considered other factors. Not a business decision. If Bagley is considering other factors, not a business decision. Grayson returning to duke? probably not a business decision since he seems to love to be here. Player returning because they think they can improve their draft stock and thus earnings? Business decision. OP leaving his job will almost never be a business decision, since both his wife and he working would create more value.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Gary Trent: "It's a business decision."
Trevon Duval: "It's a business decision."
Marvin Bagley: "It's a business decision."

It's not just me saying it, sport. The players know the deal.

"It's not personal Sonny. It's strictly business." --Michael Corleone

Love, Ima

[devilsince1977]

A couple weeks off might be just what Marvin needed right now. It appeared to me that he was hitting a little bit of the freshman wall in the last few games he played. Teams have seen enough video on him to take away his left and beat him up physically. That takes a toll on a young big; especially one playing 30+ min. a game. If he gets back in another game or two; it should give him enough time to get back in game shape and re- integrate into the line-up before post season play.

[jv001]

A couple weeks off might be just what Marvin needed right now. It appeared to me that he was hitting a little bit of the freshman wall in the last few games he played. Teams have seen enough video on him to take away his left and beat him up physically. That takes a toll on a young big; especially one playing 30+ min. a game. If he gets back in another game or two; it should give him enough time to get back in game shape and re- integrate into the line-up before post season play.

And opponents had begun playing Marvin very physically. Coming back 100% healthy should help him handle the physical play. That and using his right hand more. :cool: GoDuke!

[moonpie23]

other fans are trying desperately to connect this to the FBI investigation. As if, somehow, K and the program can avoid some sort of nefarious indictment if he just sits MB3......

is this even on the radar? or just some UK fans (whoops) bitter-much?

[uh_no]

other fans are trying desperately to connect this to the FBI investigation. As if, somehow, K and the program can avoid some sort of nefarious indictment if he just sits MB3...

is this even on the radar? or just some UK fans (whoops) bitter-much?

i mean, afaik, we wouldn't have to forfeit games he doesn't play in! Obviously this is just K preparing the team so that they can win the 6 tourney games and not have to forfeit them!

/s

[MCFinARL]

other fans are trying desperately to connect this to the FBI investigation. As if, somehow, K and the program can avoid some sort of nefarious indictment if he just sits MB3...

is this even on the radar? or just some UK fans (whoops) bitter-much?

I saw this suggestion in some ESPN comments (which may be the place trolls go to die). There has been, I think, a credible report that there are more teams being looked at in the FBI investigation, but to my knowledge there is no solid indication that Duke is one of them, nor anything other than conspiracy theory/hope of schadenfreude to support the theory that MB3 is sitting to avoid charges.

That isn't a theory that makes much sense anyway--if Duke/Duke coaches were going to be indicted based on this investigation, the damage would already be done. If Bagley were involved in anything shady--another charge for which I don't think there has even been a plausible rumor, much less evidence--he is already at Duke and has already played in games. And if this were really the motivation for his sitting out, why not simply report that he is out indefinitely, instead of saying it is a minor sprain?

[FerryFor50]

I saw this suggestion in some ESPN comments (which may be the place trolls go to die). There has been, I think, a credible report that there are more teams being looked at in the FBI investigation, but to my knowledge there is no solid indication that Duke is one of them, nor anything other than conspiracy theory/hope of schadenfreude to support the theory that MB3 is sitting to avoid charges.

That isn't a theory that makes much sense anyway--if Duke/Duke coaches were going to be indicted based on this investigation, the damage would already be done. If Bagley were involved in anything shady--another charge for which I don't think there has even been a plausible rumor, much less evidence--he is already at Duke and has already played in games. And if this were really the motivation for his sitting out, why not simply report that he is out indefinitely, instead of saying it is a minor sprain?

I dunno. Slamming on my brakes after being caught speeding always seems to work for me! :D

[Saratoga2]

I saw this suggestion in some ESPN comments (which may be the place trolls go to die). There has been, I think, a credible report that there are more teams being looked at in the FBI investigation, but to my knowledge there is no solid indication that Duke is one of them, nor anything other than conspiracy theory/hope of schadenfreude to support the theory that MB3 is sitting to avoid charges.

That isn't a theory that makes much sense anyway--if Duke/Duke coaches were going to be indicted based on this investigation, the damage would already be done. If Bagley were involved in anything shady--another charge for which I don't think there has even been a plausible rumor, much less evidence--he is already at Duke and has already played in games. And if this were really the motivation for his sitting out, why not simply report that he is out indefinitely, instead of saying it is a minor sprain?

Stupid and unfounded conjecture by Duke hating trolls. Most likely, MBIII has a mild sprain and that they want him to be totally over it before reintroducing him to the physical play associated with the interior positions in ACC ball.

[gep]

A couple weeks off might be just what Marvin needed right now. It appeared to me that he was hitting a little bit of the freshman wall in the last few games he played. Teams have seen enough video on him to take away his left and beat him up physically. That takes a toll on a young big; especially one playing 30+ min. a game. If he gets back in another game or two; it should give him enough time to get back in game shape and re- integrate into the line-up before post season play.


And opponents had begun playing Marvin very physically. Coming back 100% healthy should help him handle the physical play. That and using his right hand more. :cool: GoDuke!

Yes... from what I've read on DBR about Carlos Boozer, when he came back after his injury in the Maryland game, he actually developed... and improved his footwork. Maybe, Marvin's absence from games will allow him to develop his right hand... and completely fool all remaining teams...:cool:

[cato]

If you're considering anything other than value (which can be either short or long term, mind you), then by definition, it's not a business decision. period. Businesses are legally obligated to make decisions which drive value, therefore that's what a business decision IS.

With all respect, this is incorrect. First, you are thinking of corporations with shareholders. Most businesses are not corporations with shareholders.

And even in that context, you could have a shareholders agreement which provides that the business could pursue other objectives.

[Lar77]

My hope is that when Marvin comes back, it will not be going 35+ minutes. Knees are tricky and take time to fully recover. We have depth up front.

My guess is Marvin, if able, has been working hard to get better and to get the team better. Everything I've read or heard otherwise would indicate that.

On another note, I'm amused by the discussion of "business decision", which may be the most overused and abused phrase I've heard (and used). As the discussion has shown, it is ill-defined. As someone earlier alluded to, Michael Corleone perhaps said it best (I kind of recall Hyman Roth said something similar to Michael in II).

[subzero02]

BTT...

[JasonEvans]

Worth nothingt this point before the Va Tech and Clemson games we had already heard that Bagley would not play. The fact that we have not heard that yet is a good sign, I think.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Worth nothingt this point before the Va Tech and Clemson games we had already heard that Bagley would not play. The fact that we have not heard that yet is a good sign, I think.

He's a game-time decision: https://www.diehards.com/duke/dukes-marvin-bagley-remains-a-game-time-decision

[subzero02]

“It’s not day-to-day, but in some respects it is,” Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said, according to 247Sports.

That cleared everything up...

[flyingdutchdevil]

“It’s not day-to-day, but in some respects it is,” Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said, according to 247Sports.

That cleared everything up...

Coach K keeping things close to his chest, his vest, his shirt, his pecs?

[devildeac]

Coach K keeping things close to his chest, his vest, his shirt, his pecs?

8098

[BD80]

“It’s not day-to-day, but in some respects it is,” Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said, according to 247Sports.

That cleared everything up...

This is the kind of line that I hate when bill belicheat says it, but makes me chuckle when Coach K says it ...

[jimsumner]

Aren't we all day-to-day?

[Lar77]

Aren't we all day-to-day?

Everyday above ground is a great day

[Tripping William]

Everyday above ground is a great day

Like what my (now late) father used to say about playing golf: "I don't much care if I'm on the left side of the grass or the right side of the grass. I'm happy as long as I'm on the top side of the grass."

Back on topic: Hope we get a dose of MBIII tonight.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Like what my (now late) father used to say about playing golf: "I don't much care if I'm on the left side of the grass or the right side of the grass. I'm happy as long as I'm on the top side of the grass."

Back on topic: Hope we get a dose of MBIII tonight.

Or a dose of grass...

[boligrafous]

8098
What's that devildeac? I can't hear anything you're saying!

In my family the cone of silence refers to when someone has recorded a game and doesn't want to hear any spoilers. As in, "don't text me during the game; I'm in the cone."

[devildeac]

What's that devildeac? I can't hear anything you're saying!

In my family the cone of silence refers to when someone has recorded a game and doesn't want to hear any spoilers. As in, "don't text me during the game; I'm in the cone."

Funny stuff. The Cone of Silence is kinda/sorta an on-going DBR joke about K's and Cut's treatments of and/or approaches to their teams' injury reports. ;)

[geeveebee]

On the latest One Shining Podcast podcast, Tate Frazier, a unc alum, said that he has heard rumblings that Bagley may not return until the ACC tournament and also that Duvall may sit for a while as well. I'm not trying to spread gossip. This is from a podcast from the Ringer podcast network. It certainly isn't pro-duke. But what else is new? Regardless, anyone else heard "rumblings?"

[devildeac]

On the latest One Shining Podcast podcast, Tate Frazier, a unc alum, said that he has heard rumblings that Bagley may not return until the ACC tournament and also that Duvall may sit for a while as well. I'm not trying to spread gossip. This is from a podcast from the Ringer podcast network. It certainly isn't pro-duke. But what else is new? Regardless, anyone else heard "rumblings?"

Lost me at "u"nc alum...

:rolleyes:

[duke4ever19]

On the latest One Shining Podcast podcast, Tate Frazier, a unc alum, said that he has heard rumblings that Bagley may not return until the ACC tournament and also that Duvall may sit for a while as well. I'm not trying to spread gossip. This is from a podcast from the Ringer podcast network. It certainly isn't pro-duke. But what else is new? Regardless, anyone else heard "rumblings?"

Wait . . . what? Is Duval hurt? I must have missed this bit of news.

[AtlDuke72]

Gary Trent: "It's a business decision."
Trevon Duval: "It's a business decision."
Marvin Bagley: "It's a business decision."

It's not just me saying it, sport. The players know the deal.

18-21 year old players play ball to get experience and get better. Their willingness to play must also be evaluated by the teams that might draft them. To say that they should pack it in and expect it to have no consequences is pretty silly in my opinion. They did accept a scholarship to play basketball. Would not say much for them as a person to just pack it in at this point.

[geeveebee]

Wait . . . what? Is Duval hurt? I must have missed this bit of news.

Never mentioned him being hurt. Just mentioned that he may sit.

https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/20/17034580/trae-young-player-of-the-year-oklahoma-struggles

He starts talking about Duke at 49:30
Talks about Bagley out until ACC tourney at 51:45
Mentions Duvall wanting to sit at 53:20

[proelitedota]

I would take everything from theRinger with a grain of salt. They don't have sources nor can they do any analysis.

[duke4ever19]

Never mentioned him being hurt. Just mentioned that he may sit.

https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/20/17034580/trae-young-player-of-the-year-oklahoma-struggles

He starts talking about Duke at 49:30
Talks about Bagley out until ACC tourney at 51:45
Mentions Duvall wanting to sit at 53:20

I was just assuming that would have to be the case, because why else would Duval sit? They make it sound like its a voluntary choice on Duval's part to want to sit out games. I could understand him coming off the bench, but they aren't saying even that.

[geeveebee]

Again, I'm not stating the above as fact. I'm just saying he said he heard rumblings. It would be rather random thing to just say, "I've heard rumblings that Joel Berry wants to sit until the tournament," unless of course, I had heard rumblings. Which I have not.

[TruBlu]

Never mentioned him being hurt. Just mentioned that he may sit.

https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/20/17034580/trae-young-player-of-the-year-oklahoma-struggles

He starts talking about Duke at 49:30
Talks about Bagley out until ACC tourney at 51:45
Mentions Duvall wanting to sit at 53:20

Duvall “wanting” to sit?!?

For some reason (probably my ineptitude), I was not able to fast forward, and don’t have time to sit thru 51:45. But “wanting to sit” begs for an explanation.

[geeveebee]

I was just assuming that would have to be the case, because why else would Duval sit? They make it sound like its a voluntary choice on Duval's part to want to sit out games. I could understand him coming off the bench, but they aren't saying even that.

I think his point was that 1 and done players may start opting to sit more for draft purposes. I doubt K would allow that sort of thing to dictate his rotation, but I also thought that they went to class at Carolina.

[geeveebee]

Duvall “wanting” to sit?!?

For some reason (probably my ineptitude), I was not able to fast forward, and don’t have time to sit thru 51:45. But “wanting to sit” begs for an explanation.

He offers no such explanation.

[duke4ever19]

Again, I'm not stating the above as fact. I'm just saying he said he heard rumblings. It would be rather random thing to just say, "I've heard rumblings that Joel Berry wants to sit until the tournament," unless of course, I had heard rumblings. Which I have not.

I'm not saying you are, or that it is you that has to support the claims made by the guys on their podcast. I'm just taking a statement -- "Duval may sit" -- and asking on what basis they know this, and what it is supposed to mean.

At first, I thought I had missed some news that he too was injured, and then when I found out this wasn't true (thanks to you), I was wondering why Duval would sit, if not for Coach K putting him there. The guys on the podcast do little-to-no explaining of these rather provocative statements.

[geeveebee]

I'm not saying you are, or that it is you that has to support the claims made by the guys on their podcast. I'm just taking a statement -- "Duval may sit" -- and asking on what basis they know this. At first, I thought I had missed some news that he too was injured, and then when I found out this wasn't true (thanks to you), I was wondering why Duval would sit, if not for Coach K putting him there. The guys on the podcast do little-to-no explaining of these rather provocative statements.

Agreed. My point in bringing any of this up was to see if anyone else at all had heard these rumors.

[MHNOLADevil]

Agreed. My point in bringing any of this up was to see if anyone else at all had heard these rumors.

Is this a trap?

[El_Diablo]

Agreed. My point in bringing any of this up was to see if anyone else at all had heard these rumors.

No. It sounds like just another standard drive-by anti-Duke hatchet job. Just in that five minute span, after claiming that Bagley is sitting to preserve his draft stock and that he heard that Duval also asked to sit, the idiot also mocked Coach K (imitating a super-nasal voice and making reference to living in a cave), said he made up the Bagley injury as an excuse for the UNC loss, and suggested he is implicated in the FBI investigation because he shut down that line of questioning in a post-game press conference. Why would anyone at Duke actually be leaking information to this clown?

[grad_devil]

No. It sounds like just another standard drive-by anti-Duke hatchet job. Just in that five minute span, after claiming that Bagley is sitting to preserve his draft stock and that he heard that Duval also asked to sit, the idiot also mocked Coach K (imitating a super-nasal voice and making reference to living in a cave), said he made up the Bagley injury as an excuse for the UNC loss, and suggested he is implicated in the FBI investigation because he shut down that line of questioning in a post-game press conference. Why would anyone at Duke actually be leaking information to this clown?

I agree with El_Diablo. Total hatchet job, straight from a uNC fan's talking points.

Here's my feeble attempt to transcribe the part re: Duval:



"..trying to find the identity of their team, cause they do look better without Bagley, as a team - not saying that they are better w/o Bagley, but they look more together. They obviously talk more on defense, umm, I don't know, there's a weird position...and oh, Duval, Duval's another guy where they've had some questions about him wanting to sit out too, apparently."

[duke4ever19]

No. It sounds like just another standard drive-by anti-Duke hatchet job. Just in that five minute span, after claiming that Bagley is sitting to preserve his draft stock and that he heard that Duval also asked to sit, the idiot also mocked Coach K (imitating a super-nasal voice and making reference to living in a cave), said he made up the Bagley injury as an excuse for the UNC loss, and suggested he is implicated in the FBI investigation because he shut down that line of questioning in a post-game press conference. Why would anyone at Duke actually be leaking information to this clown?

Yeah, I just got to that part . . . turns out they are a couple of shmohawks.

[richardjackson199]

I agree with El_Diablo. Total hatchet job, straight from a uNC fan's talking points.

Here's my feeble attempt to transcribe the part re: Duval:

I'm sure they'll succeed in getting plenty of the anti-hate Duke crowd to tune in. Things don't need to be remotely true, just juicy - apparently.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Somewhere in this stickied and very easy to find thread is a rule about rumor mongering. Someone must have missed it.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21833-Decorum-amp-Posting-Guidelines-(Please-read-before-posting!)

[CDu]

Yeah, I just got to that part . . . turns out they are a couple of shmohawks.

The other dude (Titus) is actually pretty knowledgeable and usually reasonable. Frazier is just a UNC fan and as such can't seem to make himself objective when it comes to anything Duke-related.

[gofurman]

on the other hand i wouldn't have thought football players would skip bowl games for nfl status years ago. things change. though football is a rougher sport

adam rowe - https://247sports.com/college/duke/Article/Marvin-Bagley-a-game-day-decision-tonight-against-Louisville-115382399

'As Coach K said on the ACC Coaches Teleconference on Monday, there will be an announcement after the team's shootaround at 4:30 as to whether Bagley will be available to play. If Bagley is unable to go, the team will send out a release. If he is able to play, there will be no further update.

Author
Adam Rowe @AdamRoweTDD
---
is that worth something? i don't know

[geeveebee]

Yeah, I just got to that part . . . turns out they are a couple of shmohawks.

I agree with all of you. These guys hate Duke and want to disparage. I do find it hard to believe that he simply made up the stuff. That's terribly irresponsible. More likely, he hears the stuff and then postures the information to fit his narrative. That's essentially what a lot of journalists do. It's like how now National Championships and final fours are suddenly the way to judge a coach seeing as how Roy has more titles since he returned to Carolina. When Dean was there, head-to-head was the criteria since K had more titles and final fours. UNC fans posture. I think the podcast is terrible, hateful, and biased, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's lying about hearing rumblings. Regardless, we've given them too much attention as it is. Here's hoping Bagley is in the lineup tonight.

[geeveebee]

Somewhere in this stickied and very easy to find thread is a rule about rumor mongering. Someone must have missed it.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21833-Decorum-amp-Posting-Guidelines-(Please-read-before-posting!)

I, in no way, meant to rumormonger. The posting guideline says, "If you can't find a legitimate, mainstream media outlet with the information..." I linked to the information in question. Nobody has to like Bill Simmons or The Ringer. But I do think it's a legitimate, mainstream media outlet.

However, I won't bring this up again and I won't cite them as a source.

[OldPhiKap]

Again, I'm not stating the above as fact. I'm just saying he said he heard rumblings. It would be rather random thing to just say, "I've heard rumblings that Joel Berry wants to sit until the tournament," unless of course, I had heard rumblings. Which I have not.

Seems to me that this article is just spreading unsourced rumors.

[Dukehky]

Those two are pretty funny if you want to hear about college ball nationwide in a kind of funny way. However, they both hate Duke, Tate grew up a UNC fan from Henderson, so you know he's got that little brother complex. His whole world revolves around Duke basketball, and those are the worst UNC fans.

Also, Tate has a job because he laughs at Bill Simmons' stupid jokes and buys him weed. He doesn't know a thing.

The only person worth listening to for actual information on the Ringer, rather than to be entertained, because a lot of ringer shows are entertaining, is Kevin O'Connor.

One Shining Pod should never be mentioned here again if it's discussing Duke. It's essentially like having people read IC and Rupp Rafters only in the not well disguised medium of an impartial podcast.

Tate sucks.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Tate sucks.
You should tell us how you really feel! :rolleyes:

[DukeBlue666s]

And ...

He’s not playing tonight

[Bob Green]

And ...

He’s not playing tonight

From @DukeMBB:


@dukebasketball
13m13 minutes ago

Marvin Bagley III will sit for the fourth straight game tonight against Louisville, per @DukeMBB

[scottdude8]

Hmm. If this was as minor as has been the purveiling theory here and elsewhere I would’ve thought he’d play tonight. Color me legitimately worried for the first time.

[TKG]

Ok, he's out. Let's go kick Louisville's butt!

[Devilwin]

Tired of this myself. Shades of last year. But yeah, let's just win again!

[ndkjr70]

Luke Maye is going to win the 2018 ACC PoY award. Let that sink in.

[MChambers]

Hmm. If this was as minor as has been the purveiling theory here and elsewhere I would’ve thought he’d play tonight. Color me legitimately worried for the first time.

I think you're overreacting. He was a game time decision. That's progress. (Is purveiling legal?)

[subzero02]

And ...

He’s not playing tonight

The point spread was hovering around -11.5 and -12... it is now -11 at several sports books.

[subzero02]

Luke Maye is going to win the 2018 ACC PoY award. Let that sink in.

a poor man's Matt Harpring

[scottdude8]

I think you're overreacting. He was a game time decision. That's progress. (Is purveiling legal?)

Hah that’s a bad cell phone typo! Meant prevailing obviously.

[Kedsy]

Hmm. If this was as minor as has been the purveiling theory here and elsewhere I would’ve thought he’d play tonight. Color me legitimately worried for the first time.

I have no inside information, so I'm forced to resort to logic. As I see it, these are the only possibilities:

(1) They thought the injury was minor (or have been obfuscating this whole time) but it's really a major injury.

OK, but in the past for injuries that would meet the above (e.g., Kyrie Irving, Ryan Kelly, Amile Jefferson, Harry Giles), they used the word "indefinite." They haven't done that this time. Instead, they've used words like "day to day" and "game time decision." I conclude this option is possible but unlikely.

(2a) The injury was minor, or even non-existent, and Marvin and/or his family have chosen for him to sit out to preserve his draft stock.

If this is true, why did he wait until now? It's been pretty clear since November that he was going to be a top 5 pick, probably top 3. If his overriding priority was to preserve his draft stock he could have (some might say should have) chosen to sit out two months ago. Except, even now he's not a lock to be the top pick, or even top 2. And sitting out with an "injury" is more likely to keep him outside the top two than to put him inside. If draft stock is his motivation, he should play and dominate, to lock in a top two (or top one) selection.

I conclude this option is very unlikely.

(2b) The injury was minor but it scared Marvin and/or his family so much they've chosen for him to sit out to avoid an injury that might mess up his future draft position and/or career.

Except if it truly is a minor injury, why would it scare them? Like he's never had a twisted ankle or knee before? I conclude this option is possible but pretty unlikely.

(3) The injury was minor, and everybody wants him to play eventually, but nobody wants him to play if he has any pain at all or more-than-negligible chance of re-injuring it, so they're being super-cautious.

Can there be any doubt that this is the most likely option?

I conclude we just have to be patient. He's been out for less than two weeks.

[MartyClark]

Luke Maye is going to win the 2018 ACC PoY award. Let that sink in.

I admire the kid. He's a sturdy player who does a lot of little things well. I wish him the best except, of course, against Duke.

[22JumpShots]

Luke Maye is going to win the 2018 ACC PoY award. Let that sink in.

Wrong. :p

[uh_no]

he was shooting jumpers earlier alone. presumably testing it out.

[22JumpShots]

I conclude we just have to be patient. He's been out for less than two weeks.

Thanks - all very insightful. I strongly agree with your final thoughts. The kid is coming back ya'll. Just keep enjoying the ride. 4 more regular season games of Grayson. SOAK IT IN AND ENJOY!

[gofurman]

he was shooting jumpers earlier alone. presumably testing it out.

Any more information? I would appreciate it. I am getting tired of Duke basketball being an injury watch every year ..

I will say this. I F - and I hope that’s not the case - it turns out one and dones are scared to play for fear of injury I don’t want em. I want kids that want to play.

Anyway , anyone see the shoot around ? Did he try to go ? He was dressed to play at Clemson and then put street clothes back on

[proelitedota]

Never mentioned him being hurt. Just mentioned that he may sit.

https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/20/17034580/trae-young-player-of-the-year-oklahoma-struggles

He starts talking about Duke at 49:30
Talks about Bagley out until ACC tourney at 51:45
Mentions Duvall wanting to sit at 53:20

Like I said, Tate and theRinger are bunch of hacks. Alex Jones of college bball podcast.

[arnie]

Thanks - all very insightful. I strongly agree with your final thoughts. The kid is coming back ya'll. Just keep enjoying the ride. 4 more regular season games of Grayson. SOAK IT IN AND ENJOY!

When he comes back fully healthy, hope K can find a few minutes for him.😀

[Troublemaker]

Take your time to get to 100%, Marvin. No, really, take your time. ;-)

[Furniture]

Coach K says Marvin Bagley isn't ready to come back, but is getting closer. "It's not a structural thing." We're concerned about the kid.

[gofurman]

Coach K says Marvin Bagley isn't ready to come back, but is getting closer. "It's not a structural thing." We're concerned about the kid.

Furniture , I assume that's your comment that you are 'concerned about the kid'.? I.E., K didn't say that part, is that correct?

[Furniture]

Furniture , I assume that's your comment that you are 'concerned about the kid'.? I.E., K didn't say that part, is that correct?

K said it. Sorry about that.

[arydolphin]

More from K on Bagley after tonight's game (per @DavidHaleESPN):

"It's a day to day thing. Marvin has a problem or else he would play. He's getting better. The thing is, it's not a structural problem. But if we weren't concerned about him having more injury, he'd play. He's not ready. He's getting closer. I don't know when it'll happen. I'm not going to push him."

[heyman25]

Though not nearly as extreme, this is starting to have a similarity to Lonzo Ball being out for a minor injury. Strained MCL for Ball on the Lakers.He has now missed 12 games.
http://www.nba.com/lakers/news/180207-lonzo-ball-injury-update

I don't think Bagley has as severe an injury as Ball. Over the years Duke has always kept injury reports a secret to fans and the media. In this age of transparency, I would like Duke basketball to share more information. If they don't I will still be waiting to see how Bagley meshes with this much better team. Carter has bloomed to where he has a better all around game than Marvin.Bolden is getting his legs back.DeLaurier is kind of like Brian Davis not a scoring threat but a Havlicek hustle player.

I forgive Grayson and Trevon for their excessive bad passes, but Duke can not waste possessions in March with hero ball. Duval and Allen go for alley oop passes that are bad decisions.If the play is not there pull up and pass accurately.

[Oriole Way]

I hope Bagley comes back this season. But I honestly think the team can win a national championship even without him, barring further injuries of course.

At this point, I'd be fine with him coming back for the ACC tournament. I don't think UNC can beat us at home with the way Allen and Carter are playing, how Duval is focusing more on the defensive end, and with DeLaurier and the bench guys really growing into their roles. There will be an acclimation period with Bagley's return, given how ball-dominant he is on the offensive end, and how poor a defender he is. And given how much the team dynamic has changed since he last played. Bring him off the bench for his first game back, then start him the rest of the way. Hopefully he gets comfortable within the much improved defense.

[subzero02]

Allen making wide open 3s subsequent to a wrist injury and Duval not playing like we have 200 possessionso each game have helped us on offense. Our major improvement has been on defense and that is much more difficult to analyze. Based on some of the plays I have seen from Allen, picking up the ball handler in transition has been a point of emphasis. Limiting turnovers and transition opportunities has done wonders for our defensive rating as well. WE WILL BE MUCH BETTER WITH BAGLEY.

[Chillduck]

For all of those knocking Bagley’s defense, we are playing a zone now. He is perfect for this defense with his length, athleticism, and rebounding ability. We did pretty well earlier in the year with him playing in the zone. To be a national championship team, we need him. I look forward to this version of Grayson working with Marvin.

[flyingdutchdevil]

For all of those knocking Bagley’s defense, we are playing a zone now. He is perfect for this defense with his length, athleticism, and rebounding ability. We did pretty well earlier in the year with him playing in the zone. To be a national championship team, we need him. I look forward to this version of Grayson working with Marvin.

Yes, he has the tools to be a good defender. No, he is not a good defender in the zone. Bagley is often out of position. He doesn't recover well in the zone.

To me, there is no question the team is better defensively without Bagley. Defensively.

Offensively, and as a team, we are better with Bagley.

But I do not think this defensive renaissance is solely because of zone. It's because we're replacing Bagley with two defenders who are engaged and understand the system moreso than Bagley (Marques and Javin).

[Troublemaker]

WE WILL BE MUCH BETTER WITH BAGLEY.

I can't see how that would be true (but am of course rooting for you to be correct). I'm more hoping that we can maintain this level of play when Marvin is back or perhaps improve minimally. I don't see the pathway for large-scale improvement with Marvin back.

The fact of the matter is: Grayson as the #1 option offensively, Wendell as the #2 option, and Gary as the #3 option is perfectly fine and indeed is enviable offensive firepower to the rest of the country. Probably only Villanova would look at that and think they could do better. When Marvin is present, are we really becoming more efficient offensively, or are we just re-distributing usage among several greatly efficient options already, without becoming more efficient overall as a team? That said, I do think we'll become slightly more efficient offensively with Marvin back as long as Grayson continues to hunt for his shot and doesn't bend the knee to the Bagley postup. (Grayson's gravity when he has his shot going opens up the offense so much for his teammates.)

But here's the rub. Can Marvin play the wing in the zone close to as well as Javin plays it? Because if Marvin only improves the offense minimally but then doesn't play zone wing nearly as well as Javin, then we're talking about a net subtraction from the team.

When Marvin's back, I'll be watching how well he plays in the zone.

[NYBri]

Weird to be having a discussion about whether the team is better without the PoY.

Don’t remember encountering a vigil thread on DBR like this. :cool:

[flyingdutchdevil]

Weird to be having a discussion about whether the team is better without the PoY.

Don’t remember encountering a vigil thread on DBR like this. :cool:

Well, facts don't really lie. Our impressive defense over the last 4 games is due to a) no Bags and b) commitment to the zone.

We may have to face the fact that Bagley is a better version of Jabari: excellent offensive player, great rebounder, sub-par (at best) defender.

[elvis14]

I think we all really like what we have seen that last 4 games and we have seen each game be better than the last. Frankly we are afraid that Marvin will break it. In golf when you make swing changes you often get worse before you get better. That might happen with Marvin and that's OK as long as the end result is that we are better after the adjustment period.

The commitment to the zone and our improvement on the defensive end of the court are really obvious. We don't want to give those improvements back. Like others, I'll be watching Marvin closely to see how he does. The other change that we've seen is Grayson becoming the primary ball handler (PG) and Duval playing more off the ball (SG). That has really stabilized the offense. Plus our ball movement has been great which has lead to some really good looks. Grayson Allen started shooting in rhythm again and it's been fantastic. Marvin doesn't pass much. The ball goes in and he has 1 thought, score. He's so good that it was OK for a while. As teams started to figure out Marvin some (be physical with him and force him to his right), it became less OK.

So what am I hoping for? First, a healthy Marvin Bagley. Second, an active Marvin Bagley on the defensive end of the floor. Third a more well rounded player on the offensive end that shoots when he should and passes when he should (like passing out of double teams to open shooters). What I'd also like to see is a coaching staff that'll pull him and coach him if he struggles with defense or doesn't share the ball.

All that being said, our ceiling is higher with MB and I want to reach that higher level (which is not the roof, BTW).

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think we all really like what we have seen that last 4 games and we have seen each game be better than the last. Frankly we are afraid that Marvin will break it. In golf when you make swing changes you often get worse before you get better. That might happen with Marvin and that's OK as long as the end result is that we are better after the adjustment period.

The commitment to the zone and our improvement on the defensive end of the court are really obvious. We don't want to give those improvements back. Like others, I'll be watching Marvin closely to see how he does. The other change that we've seen is Grayson becoming the primary ball handler (PG) and Duval playing more off the ball (SG). That has really stabilized the offense. Plus our ball movement has been great which has lead to some really good looks. Grayson Allen started shooting in rhythm again and it's been fantastic. Marvin doesn't pass much. The ball goes in and he has 1 thought, score. He's so good that it was OK for a while. As teams started to figure out Marvin some (be physical with him and force him to his right), it became less OK.

So what am I hoping for? First, a healthy Marvin Bagley. Second, an active Marvin Bagley on the defensive end of the floor. Third a more well rounded player on the offensive end that shoots when he should and passes when he should (like passing out of double teams to open shooters). What I'd also like to see is a coaching staff that'll pull him and coach him if he struggles with defense or doesn't share the ball.

All that being said, our ceiling is higher with MB and I want to reach that higher level (which is not the roof, BTW).

Nice post (except the golf analogy. That went over my head :p).

I like you're expectations for Bagley. I truly believe he can play more within a team offensively. He's still our most efficient offensive player (even with OG Grayson back). However, I don't think he's going to be anywhere near Javin (or even Bolden) defensively. I just don't think he gets defense. A lot of freshman don't get defense. I think Marvin is one of them.

I hope that when Marvin comes back, Coach K continues to play Javin a lot. Because his defense has been outstanding (well, minus his propensity to foul). Also, our offense is still crazy elite with OG, Carter, and Trent.

[jv001]

I can't see how that would be true (but am of course rooting for you to be correct). I'm more hoping that we can maintain this level of play when Marvin is back or perhaps improve minimally. I don't see the pathway for large-scale improvement with Marvin back.

The fact of the matter is: Grayson as the #1 option offensively, Wendell as the #2 option, and Gary as the #3 option is perfectly fine and indeed is enviable offensive firepower to the rest of the country. Probably only Villanova would look at that and think they could do better. When Marvin is present, are we really becoming more efficient offensively, or are we just re-distributing usage among several greatly efficient options already, without becoming more efficient overall as a team? That said, I do think we'll become slightly more efficient offensively with Marvin back as long as Grayson continues to hunt for his shot and doesn't bend the knee to the Bagley postup. (Grayson's gravity when he has his shot going opens up the offense so much for his teammates.)

But here's the rub. Can Marvin play the wing in the zone close to as well as Javin plays it? Because if Marvin only improves the offense minimally but then doesn't play zone wing nearly as well as Javin, then we're talking about a net subtraction from the team.

When Marvin's back, I'll be watching how well he plays in the zone.

I know it's only a few games, but I'm impressed how well Jack White plays in the zone, plus he's a terrific rebounder. I wouldn't have been able to say that several games back but after watching him play, he's got my attention. In the game last night, I followed him when he didn't have the ball on offense and he is very quick and can jump quickly. He knows where to be in the zone and was talking on defense. A great job by Coach K getting him in the rotation while MBIII is out. I'm sure his minutes will go down when Marvin returns, but he's making the most of his opportunity right now. GoDuke!

[moonpie23]

I know it's only a few games, but I'm impressed how well Jack White plays in the zone, plus he's a terrific rebounder. I wouldn't have been able to say that several games back but after watching him play, he's got my attention. In the game last night, I followed him when he didn't have the ball on offense and he is very quick and can jump quickly. He knows where to be in the zone and was talking on defense. A great job by Coach K getting him in the rotation while MBIII is out. I'm sure his minutes will go down when Marvin returns, but he's making the most of his opportunity right now. GoDuke!

this....i spent a few minutes last night JUST watching Jack White.....he is getting better and better.......

[BD80]

this...i spent a few minutes last night JUST watching Jack White....he is getting better and better....


He is quite springy ...

[Jeffrey]

However, I don't think he's going to be anywhere near Javin (or even Bolden) defensively. I just don't think he gets defense. A lot of freshman don't get defense. I think Marvin is one of them.


If true, then how has Bagley repeatedly played very good D in the last 5, or so, minutes of close games?

[CDu]

If true, then how has Bagley repeatedly played very good D in the last 5, or so, minutes of close games?

Yeah, I don’t agree with either the “Bagley isn’t as good defensively as DeLaurier/Bolden” or the “he doesn’t get it on defense” line of thought.

It seems like some folks are now dumping the team’s defensive woes on Bagley. I think the defensive woes were predominantly elsewhere. And predominantly related to man defense as well. I also think that folks are falling prey to the highlight-reel plays DeLaurier has made and inflating his overall defensive performance, while conversely undervaluing Bagley’s vastly superior defensive rebounding skills, and discounting that Bagley is being asked to play ~40 minutes and carry a huge offensive load. And I think folks are forgetting that we were a really good zone team before Bagley got hurt, and Bagley was absolutely a part of that.

And I don’t mean that as a diss to DeLaurier. I love his energy and hustle. I just don’t think he is a better defender than Bagley. Same for Bolden.

[907bluedevils]

The teams the last 4 are not of the same par as the last 4 that bagley has played. The team is better with him on the floor than without. The consensus when we were losing before that was our d and other teams would hit open 3's, hard to see how that would be bagley's fault sitting in the middle of the zone going forward.

[Ian]

Yeah, I don’t agree with either the “Bagley isn’t as good defensively as DeLaurier/Bolden” or the “he doesn’t get it on defense” line of thought.

It seems like some folks are now dumping the team’s defensive woes on Bagley. I think the defensive woes were predominantly elsewhere. And predominantly related to man defense as well. I also think that folks are falling prey to the highlight-reel plays DeLaurier has made and inflating his overall defensive performance, while conversely undervaluing Bagley’s vastly superior defensive rebounding skills, and discounting that Bagley is being asked to play ~40 minutes and carry a huge offensive load. And I think folks are forgetting that we were a really good zone team before Bagley got hurt, and Bagley was absolutely a part of that.

Not blaming all or even most of the bad defense on Bagley, but I think it's pretty obvious both by the eyetest and the advanced metrics that Bolden and Javin are better defenders than Bagley. Neither are the rebounding monster that Bagley is, although both are still soild (Bolden) to very good (Javin) rebounders in their own right.

Neither of course, are close to the offensive player that Bagley is. Which is why Bagley is the superior overall player. But there is no way Duke's defense is as good it has been the last 4 games if the defensive possessions played by Javin/Bolden is replace by Bagley.

[Jeffrey]

It seems like some folks are now dumping the team’s defensive woes on Bagley. I think the defensive woes were predominantly elsewhere. And predominantly related to man defense as well.

Exactly! Unlike the 2015 team, Duval & Carter were not going to figure out how to adequately defend pick & roll by March.

[WVDUKEFAN]

It doesn't sound like Bags will be back Saturday, either.

[OZ]

Yeah, I don’t agree with either the “Bagley isn’t as good defensively as DeLaurier/Bolden” or the “he doesn’t get it on defense” line of thought.

It seems like some folks are now dumping the team’s defensive woes on Bagley. I think the defensive woes were predominantly elsewhere. And predominantly related to man defense as well. I also think that folks are falling prey to the highlight-reel plays DeLaurier has made and inflating his overall defensive performance, while conversely undervaluing Bagley’s vastly superior defensive rebounding skills, and discounting that Bagley is being asked to play ~40 minutes and carry a huge offensive load. And I think folks are forgetting that we were a really good zone team before Bagley got hurt, and Bagley was absolutely a part of that.

And I don’t mean that as a diss to DeLaurier. I love his energy and hustle. I just don’t think he is a better defender than Bagley. Same for Bolden.

Honestly, I'm one of those guilty of "forgetting that we were a really good zone team before Bagley got hurt."
It just seems that as of late - since K committed to the zone - we have become a good zone team. But, I don't recall us being a REALLY good zone team prior to Bag's injury.

[moonpie23]

man, i sure hope he doesn't read this thread.. :(

[gofurman]

It doesn't sound like Bags will be back Saturday, either.

WVU , Source for this w Syracuse? ( I am beginning to wonder... Just frustrated- precautionary doesn't sound right for this many game)

[du_bb1]

A sprain knee-even 'mild' takes time to complete recovery- patience Obi Wan..........

[Bob Green]

Update:



@DukeMBB
2m2 minutes ago

NEWS: Freshman forward Marvin Bagley III will be available to play tonight when the Blue Devils host Syracuse.

:cool:

[killerleft]

Now, THAT'S some good news! Go Duke, and Go Marvin!!!!

[proelitedota]

Bagley's back! Back again!

Tell a friend!

[DaleDuke7]

Maybe I’m focusing too much on the word choice, but it says “will be available”. Makes me think he might not start and have limited minutes. I hope I’m wrong. Either way, GREAT news!!

[UrinalCake]

8118

[CameronBornAndBred]

Maybe I’m focusing too much on the word choice, but it says “will be available”. Makes me think he might not start and have limited minutes. I hope I’m wrong. Either way, GREAT news!!

A limited Bagley minute is still a greater minute than those of 90% of other available players. :)
On that note, I wouldn't mind seeing his minutes limited tonight; the team has done a beautiful job without him (whew!), so I want to make sure that they keep that vibe and chemistry going strong.
Looking forward to tonight, LGD!!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yeah, after the strangeness of this week, I am excited for the team to get out there and play some basketball.

[Troublemaker]

Maybe I’m focusing too much on the word choice, but it says “will be available”. Makes me think he might not start and have limited minutes. I hope I’m wrong. Either way, GREAT news!!

Just getting him back in any capacity is great news. It means he's healthy. People don't have to doubt that the injury is minor anymore or wonder whether he's sitting out because of the FBI investigation or because he's protecting his draft stock, etc etc.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

No pressure here at all -- BUT -- we won every game while he was OUT, bless his heart. Just sayin'.
Love, Ima

[richardjackson199]

Just getting him back in any capacity is great news. It means he's healthy. People don't have to doubt that the injury is minor anymore or wonder whether he's sitting out because of the FBI investigation or because he's protecting his draft stock, etc etc.

Exactly. I'd love nothing more than Bagley checking in, sending Cameron into a frenzy, and playing a few quality minutes in a win. I don't care if he plays 5 minutes or 35 (I'd guess closer to 5, but no clue).

And then I'd love for this thread to be locked after a win.

[szstark]

Maybe I’m focusing too much on the word choice, but it says “will be available”. Makes me think he might not start and have limited minutes. I hope I’m wrong. Either way, GREAT news!!

This actually strikes me as the perfect scenario for reintegrating him back into the lineup - it takes all of the ego out of the equation.

[JasonEvans]

I don't care if he plays 5 minutes or 35 (I'd guess closer to 5, but no clue).

I'm putting the over/under at 17 minutes...

[UrinalCake]

Time to roll these fools by 40 so the Bagley Theory can officially be disproven.

[richardjackson199]

I'm putting the over/under at 17 minutes...

Easy - Under. :D

[OZZIE4DUKE]

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8118&stc=1
Now go grab a clip of Boeheim ripping his jacket off in disgust from a few years ago in Cameron! A prelude to tonight’s game!

[Bob Green]

Easy - Under. :D

I'll take the over. Bagley plays 18-20 minutes.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Now go grab a clip of Boeheim ripping his jacket off in disgust from a few years ago in Cameron! A prelude to tonight’s game!
8119
I remember when one of our CTN folks suggested this as a photoshop image. Hoping for more photoshop fun after tonight!

[DU82]

I'll take the over. Bagley plays 18-20 minutes.

I think he'll go all Ryan Kelly on them tonight.

[JasonEvans]

Now go grab a clip of Boeheim ripping his jacket off in disgust from a few years ago in Cameron! A prelude to tonight’s game!

https://media.giphy.com/media/RiNGe95NLSuUo/source.gif

[JasonEvans]

I think he'll go all Ryan Kelly on them tonight.

This is entirely possible. Many had commented that it felt like maybe Marvin had hit a bit of the freshman wall after carrying us for a lot of the season. Perhaps this 4 game break has recharged him.

-Jason "ooooh, that is delicious to think about!" Evans

[cato]

I'll take the over. Bagley plays 18-20 minutes.

I agree with the estimable Mr. Green, with a 10% upside margin.

I will be very disappointed if this thread is not closed within minutes of tipoff.

[Zeke]

https://media.giphy.com/media/RiNGe95NLSuUo/source.gif

Tonight the pants come off too