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pfrduke
02-12-2018, 12:54 AM
Things continue to sort themselves out in an orderly fashion - everyone with 6 wins must feel like they're still in good contention for a bid (although the 6 win teams definitely still have work to do) and everyone below that is almost certainly out of the picture (put a big asterisk on Notre Dame because a) they can get some big scalps down the stretch and b) they can play a Matt Farrell injury card since the team went 1-4 without him (they can't play a Colson injury card for anything other than sympathy since he won't be back for the tourney)). The top 4 seeds also are sorting out with Virginia, Clemson, and Duke having the best odds (although there are 4 teams with 5 losses that all think they can get that 4th spot).

Monday
[10]North Carolina (8-5) (-7) hosts [37]Notre Dame (5-7) (7:00, ESPN)

Tuesday
[223]Pittsburgh (0-13) (+6) hosts [81]Boston College (5-7) (7:00, ESPNN)
[36]Miami (7-5) (+5) hosts [1]Virginia (12-1) (9:00, ESPN) - this one could go under 100

Wednesday
[5]Duke (8-4) (-12) hosts [40]Virginia Tech (7-5) (7:00, ESPN2)
[25]Florida State (6-7) (-2) hosts [15]Clemson (9-3) (7:00, ACCNE)
[90]Wake Forest (2-11) (-5) hosts [114]Georgia Tech (4-8) (9:00, ACCNE)
[46]Syracuse (6-6) (-4) hosts [59]NC State (6-6) (9:00, ACCNE)

Thursday and Friday are dark

Saturday
[36]Miami (7-5) (-5) hosts [46]Syracuse (-4) (12:00, CBS)
[114]Georgia Tech (4-8) (+4) hosts [40]Virginia Tech (7-5) (12:00, ESPN2)
[81]Boston College (5-7) (+1) hosts [37]Notre Dame (5-7) (4:00, ACCNE)
[90]Wake Forest (2-11) (-1) hosts [59]NC State (6-6) (4:00, ACCNE)
[28]Louisville (8-5) (+1) hosts [10]North Carolina (8-5) (8:15, ESPN)

Sunday
[15]Clemson (9-3) (+1) hosts [5]Duke (8-4) (1:00, ACCNE)
[25]Florida State (6-7) (-20) hosts [223]Pittsburgh (0-13) (6:00, ESPNU)

ACC Non-Conference Record: 151-39
ACC v. Power 6: 29-22

pfrduke
02-12-2018, 01:00 AM
And here's the efficiency margin rundown. I really should do this excluding all games involving Pitt because Pitt simply doesn't belong in the league this year. But I'm lazy and not going to do that. By the way, Virginia's numbers would not change - that's right, they've put together the best performance in the league without even playing the worst team yet.

Virginia: +18.4
Duke: +14
Louisville: +10.5
North Carolina: +7.3
Clemson: +5.8
Syracuse: +2.2
Miami: +2.0
Notre Dame: +0.1
Florida State: -0.1
Virginia Tech: -1.2
NC State: -4.4
Boston College: -5.9
Georgia Tech: -7.2
Wake Forest: -10.8
Pittsburgh: -29.9 (lol)

Troublemaker
02-12-2018, 05:49 AM
(they can't play a Colson injury card for anything other than sympathy since he won't be back for the tourney)


As always, thanks for doing this every week, pfr. As for Colson, are you about that? Looking around at recent articles, it seems like ND is still hoping/expecting he'll be back for the ACC tourney (https://www.onefootdown.com/2018/2/11/16999634/notre-dame-basketball-florida-state-detailed-recap-you-gotta-believe-matt-farrell-rex-pflueger-brey).

OldPhiKap
02-12-2018, 07:42 AM
I’m not sure I see us as a 12 point favorite against VT.

Saturday’s game at Clemson will be a war. I’ve seen a few games in Littlejohn over the years, great/tough atmosphere for Duke games.

Atldukie79
02-12-2018, 09:26 AM
Prior to ACC play, I had hoped we would be sitting atop The ACC standings at this point in the season.
Given our notable defensive struggles and other issues documented in DBR, I am pleased that we sit at 8-4, alone in 3rd place, controlling our destiny to secure a top 4 finish and a double bye entering the ACC tourney.

However, it is interesting to note our strength of schedule in conference. (or lack there of)

Consider that 4 of our conference wins come against the 2 worst teams, Wake and Pitt. Additionally, 2 more wins come against the next 2 lowest teams in the standings, ND and Ga Tech.
So we are 2-4 against the rest of the ACC. One of those wins was against FSU, also sporting a losing record in conference.

Which means we are 1-4 against the rest of the conference. One of those losses was against BC, also sporting a losing conference record.

Our only conference win against a team with a winning conference reecord is against Miami, at 7-5.

None of our remaining 6 conference opponents have a losing record in conference.

Hmmmmmmmmm........

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2018, 10:09 AM
Prior to ACC play, I had hoped we would be sitting atop The ACC standings at this point in the season.
Given our notable defensive struggles and other issues documented in DBR, I am pleased that we sit at 8-4, alone in 3rd place, controlling our destiny to secure a top 4 finish and a double bye entering the ACC tourney.

However, it is interesting to note our strength of schedule in conference. (or lack there of)

Consider that 4 of our conference wins come against the 2 worst teams, Wake and Pitt. Additionally, 2 more wins come against the next 2 lowest teams in the standings, ND and Ga Tech.
So we are 2-4 against the rest of the ACC. One of those wins was against FSU, also sporting a losing record in conference.

Which means we are 1-4 against the rest of the conference. One of those losses was against BC, also sporting a losing conference record.

Our only conference win against a team with a winning conference reecord is against Miami, at 7-5.

None of our remaining 6 conference opponents have a losing record in conference.

Hmmmmmmmmm....

Yup. I have been keeping an eye on this all season. If we get high seeds in the Acc and NCAA tournaments, we will earn them in the next few weeks.

CDu
02-12-2018, 10:24 AM
Prior to ACC play, I had hoped we would be sitting atop The ACC standings at this point in the season.
Given our notable defensive struggles and other issues documented in DBR, I am pleased that we sit at 8-4, alone in 3rd place, controlling our destiny to secure a top 4 finish and a double bye entering the ACC tourney.

However, it is interesting to note our strength of schedule in conference. (or lack there of)

Consider that 4 of our conference wins come against the 2 worst teams, Wake and Pitt. Additionally, 2 more wins come against the next 2 lowest teams in the standings, ND and Ga Tech.
So we are 2-4 against the rest of the ACC. One of those wins was against FSU, also sporting a losing record in conference.

Which means we are 1-4 against the rest of the conference. One of those losses was against BC, also sporting a losing conference record.

Our only conference win against a team with a winning conference reecord is against Miami, at 7-5.

None of our remaining 6 conference opponents have a losing record in conference.

Hmmmmmmmmm...

Yep. We are currently just 6-5 against the top-100 in KenPom. Hopefully we improve that number by a LOT over the next 3 weeks. Every remaining game is against a top-50 opponent. Time to step up.

Hopefully Bagley is back for the Va Tech game. If so, I will be interested to see if we go back to man-to-man or stick with the zone. I suspect the former. If so, we will need to play it better than we have been playing it lately.

robed deity
02-12-2018, 10:29 AM
Yep. We are currently just 6-5 against the top-100 in KenPom. Hopefully we improve that number by a LOT over the next 3 weeks. Every remaining game is against a top-50 opponent. Time to step up.

Hopefully Bagley is back for the Va Tech game. If so, I will be interested to see if we go back to man-to-man or stick with the zone. I suspect the former. If so, we will need to play it better than we have been playing it lately.

I count 10-5 ( maybe you meant top 50?), but your point still stands.

PackMan97
02-12-2018, 10:46 AM
This weeks +/- (+1 for a road win, -1 for a home loss). Tie breakers are subjective. The team I feel with the tougher road wins gets the nod.

UVa gets their first loss to a rival. VT, Syracuse and ND all distinguish themselves with great weeks as they work to get off the bubble. The Cheaters 9f their way up the standings, but they also have the least impressive results of their +1 neighbors and [you can't say that on the DBR].


TEAM +/- CONF OVERALL
Virginia +5 12-1 23-2 @VT, @GT, @WF, @Duke, @Syracuse, @FSU, (VT)
Duke +3 8-4 10-5 @Pitt, @UM, @WF, GT, (UVa)
Clemson +3 9-3 20-4 @BC, @GT, @Wake
Miami +2 7-5 18-6 @NCSU, @Pitt, @VT, (Duke)
Virginia Tech +1 7-5 18-7 @WF, @ND, @BC, @UVa, (FSU, UVa, Miami)
Louisville +1 8-5 18-8 @ND, @FSU, @Pitt, (FSU, UL)
North Carolina +1 8-5 19-7 @ND, @NCSU, (NCSU)
Syracuse 0 6-6 17-8 @Pitt, @UL, (ND, UVA)
NC State 0 6-6 16-9 @Pitt, @Cheats, (UM, Cheats)
Florida State 0 6-7 17-8 @VT, @UL, (UL, UVa)
Notre Dame -2 5-7 15-10 @Cuse, (UL, Cheats, VT)
Georgia Tech -2 4-8 11-14 @Pitt, (UVa, Clemson, Duke)
Boston College -2 5-7 15-10 (Clemson,VT)
Wake Forest -4 2-11 9-16 (Duke, UVa, VT, Clemson)
Pittsburgh -6 0-13 8-18 (UM, Duke, GT, Syracuse, NCSU, UL)

English
02-12-2018, 11:13 AM
This weeks +/- (+1 for a road win, -1 for a home loss). Tie breakers are subjective. The team I feel with the tougher road wins gets the nod.

UVa gets their first loss to a rival. VT, Syracuse and ND all distinguish themselves with great weeks as they work to get off the bubble. The Cheaters 9f their way up the standings, but they also have the least impressive results of their +1 neighbors and [you can't say that on the DBR].


TEAM +/- CONF OVERALL
Virginia +5 12-1 23-2 @VT, @GT, @WF, @Duke, @Syracuse, @FSU, (VT)
Duke +3 8-4 10-5 @Pitt, @UM, @WF, GT, (UVa)
Clemson +3 9-3 20-4 @BC, @GT, @Wake
Miami +2 7-5 18-6 @NCSU, @Pitt, @VT, (Duke)
Virginia Tech +1 7-5 18-7 @WF, @ND, @BC, @UVa, (FSU, UVa, Miami)
Louisville +1 8-5 18-8 @ND, @FSU, @Pitt, (FSU, UL)
North Carolina +1 8-5 19-7 @ND, @NCSU, (NCSU)
Syracuse 0 6-6 17-8 @Pitt, @UL, (ND, UVA)
NC State 0 6-6 16-9 @Pitt, @Cheats, (UM, Cheats)
Florida State 0 6-7 17-8 @VT, @UL, (UL, UVa)
Notre Dame -2 5-7 15-10 @Cuse, (UL, Cheats, VT)
Georgia Tech -2 4-8 11-14 @Pitt, (UVa, Clemson, Duke)
Boston College -2 5-7 15-10 (Clemson,VT)
Wake Forest -4 2-11 9-16 (Duke, UVa, VT, Clemson)
Pittsburgh -6 0-13 8-18 (UM, Duke, GT, Syracuse, NCSU, UL)


Quibble--Duke's overall record is 20-5.

CDu
02-12-2018, 11:26 AM
I count 10-5 ( maybe you meant top 50?), but your point still stands.

Sorry, I bungled that statement. We are 7-5 against the RPI top-100.

sagegrouse
02-12-2018, 11:32 AM
Some big games this week:

Monday: ND at UNC

Tues.: UVa at Miami

Wed.: VT at Duke

Sat.: UNC at Louisville

Sun.: Duke at Clemson

CDu
02-12-2018, 11:34 AM
Some big games this week:

Monday: ND at UNC

Tues.: UVa at Miami

Wed.: VT at Duke

Sat.: UNC at Louisville

Sun.: Duke at Clemson

I certainly hope that ND at UNC is a big game, but I'm not optimistic about it. The Irish have looked pretty bad on the road this year, and I think they'll still be without Harvey for this one.

pfrduke
02-12-2018, 11:44 AM
As always, thanks for doing this every week, pfr. As for Colson, are you about that? Looking around at recent articles, it seems like ND is still hoping/expecting he'll be back for the ACC tourney (https://www.onefootdown.com/2018/2/11/16999634/notre-dame-basketball-florida-state-detailed-recap-you-gotta-believe-matt-farrell-rex-pflueger-brey).

Well that would make their asterisk quite a bit bigger. Notre Dame could be a very interesting test for the committee (although their record may just not be good enough even with the injury considerations).

Troublemaker
02-12-2018, 11:50 AM
Well that would make their asterisk quite a bit bigger. Notre Dame could be a very interesting test for the committee (although their record may just not be good enough even with the injury considerations).

Oh, I'm confident that if Colson is back for the ACC tourney, Notre Dame will get a tournament bid.

Natty_B
02-12-2018, 11:52 AM
Prior to ACC play, I had hoped we would be sitting atop The ACC standings at this point in the season.
Given our notable defensive struggles and other issues documented in DBR, I am pleased that we sit at 8-4, alone in 3rd place, controlling our destiny to secure a top 4 finish and a double bye entering the ACC tourney.

However, it is interesting to note our strength of schedule in conference. (or lack there of)

Consider that 4 of our conference wins come against the 2 worst teams, Wake and Pitt. Additionally, 2 more wins come against the next 2 lowest teams in the standings, ND and Ga Tech.
So we are 2-4 against the rest of the ACC. One of those wins was against FSU, also sporting a losing record in conference.

Which means we are 1-4 against the rest of the conference. One of those losses was against BC, also sporting a losing conference record.

Our only conference win against a team with a winning conference reecord is against Miami, at 7-5.

None of our remaining 6 conference opponents have a losing record in conference.

Hmmmmmmmmm....

4 of the 6 remaining games are at home at least. Seems particularly important for this team.

pfrduke
02-12-2018, 12:10 PM
Oh, I'm confident that if Colson is back for the ACC tourney, Notre Dame will get a tournament bid.

They have a tough close to the ACC schedule - four road games (including at UNC and UVA), plus Miami at home. If they lost 4 of 6 (finishing 17-14 overall, 7-11 in conference, losses in 11 of their last 15), that's a hard tournament profile even with the preseason ACC POY added back into the mix. At some point there are just too many losses.

Of course, if Colson comes back in the ACCT and Notre Dame suddenly looks frisky and gets to, say, the semifinals, even that might be enough. One of the most interesting tournament bid cases in recent years for sure.

CDu
02-12-2018, 12:13 PM
They have a tough close to the ACC schedule - four road games (including at UNC and UVA), plus Miami at home. If they lost 4 of 6 (finishing 17-14 overall, 7-11 in conference, losses in 11 of their last 15), that's a hard tournament profile even with the preseason ACC POY added back into the mix. At some point there are just too many losses.

Of course, if Colson comes back in the ACCT and Notre Dame suddenly looks frisky and gets to, say, the semifinals, even that might be enough. One of the most interesting tournament bid cases in recent years for sure.

If Colson returns by the ACC tournament, Notre Dame's struggles in the ACC regular season may actually help them. That would mean they'd probably have to play on Tuesday, which would give them an extra game or two to pad the stats with Colson back to help boost their case.

They've played very poorly away from home without Colson, and it's hard to see that changing over the next few weeks.

ChillinDuke
02-12-2018, 12:40 PM
They have a tough close to the ACC schedule - four road games (including at UNC and UVA), plus Miami at home. If they lost 4 of 6 (finishing 17-14 overall, 7-11 in conference, losses in 11 of their last 15), that's a hard tournament profile even with the preseason ACC POY added back into the mix. At some point there are just too many losses.

Of course, if Colson comes back in the ACCT and Notre Dame suddenly looks frisky and gets to, say, the semifinals, even that might be enough. One of the most interesting tournament bid cases in recent years for sure.

I think 18-13, 8-10 would still not be enough. Even with him back and winning a single game in the ACCT to put them at 19-14.

My hunch is that with injuries, the committee looks for records with and without the player. And without a critical mass of games in conference on which to judge the team WITH the player, I think the Committee will simply exclude. I don't know exactly when Colson got injured, but I assume the only good win ND had with Colson was vs Wichita State on a neutral floor.

They're going to need him back AND get multiple (probably 3) wins in the ACCT.

- Chillin

CameronDuke
02-12-2018, 12:45 PM
Congratulations to Virginia!

Virginia is No. 1 in the AP poll for the first time since 1982.

1. Virginia
2. Michigan St.
3. Villanova
4. Xavier
5. Cincinnati
6. Purdue
7. Texas Tech
8. Ohio St.
9. Gonzaga
10. Auburn
11. Clemson
12. Duke

dukelifer
02-12-2018, 01:24 PM
Congratulations to Virginia!

Virginia is No. 1 in the AP poll for the first time since 1982.

1. Virginia
2. Michigan St.
3. Villanova
4. Xavier
5. Cincinnati
6. Purdue
7. Texas Tech
8. Ohio St.
9. Gonzaga
10. Auburn
11. Clemson
12. Duke

Big news for them. Still not sure they can win it all- but they have a chance.

Bluegrassdevil1
02-12-2018, 01:38 PM
Not to be unkind to UVA's accomplishment this season, but it is quite odd to see a team lose at home and become the number one team. I realize that the options for the top spot are limited, but I cannot remember the last team to lose at home and ascend to the top of the mountain.

Wahoo2000
02-12-2018, 01:49 PM
Not to be unkind to UVA's accomplishment this season, but it is quite odd to see a team lose at home and become the number one team. I realize that the options for the top spot are limited, but I cannot remember the last team to lose at home and ascend to the top of the mountain.

Agree with this. It was a SUPER-weird week with all the losses up near the top, plus the committee releasing their rankings with us as overall #1 prob pushed just enough folks to our camp to hang on over MSU. Normally, polls have much more recency bias than looking at overall resume. I think that the seeds coming out changed that a bit.

All for naught if we can't rebound quickly and pick up a win tomorrow at Coral Gables. A loss probably drops us at least 3-4 spots. With a WIN though, we likely hang on to the top spot until at LEAST early March.

dukebluesincebirth
02-12-2018, 02:09 PM
Not to be unkind to UVA's accomplishment this season, but it is quite odd to see a team lose at home and become the number one team. I realize that the options for the top spot are limited, but I cannot remember the last team to lose at home and ascend to the top of the mountain.

I thought the exact same thing... lose at home (was vtech even ranked??) and become #1.??? Virginia can't feel very solid up there. Duke has fallen to #12, and I thought we could've easily beaten UVa by correcting some simple mistakes. A couple of free throws separates #1 and #12. Should be an exciting and unpredictable end to the season!

dukelifer
02-12-2018, 02:30 PM
Congratulations to Virginia!

Virginia is No. 1 in the AP poll for the first time since 1982.

1. Virginia
2. Michigan St.
3. Villanova
4. Xavier
5. Cincinnati
6. Purdue
7. Texas Tech
8. Ohio St.
9. Gonzaga
10. Auburn
11. Clemson
12. Duke

Last time that happened-Duke started a bunch of Freshman- weird.

brevity
02-12-2018, 02:54 PM
Congratulations to Virginia!

Virginia is No. 1 in the AP poll for the first time since 1982.

1. Virginia
2. Michigan St.
3. Villanova
4. Xavier
5. Cincinnati
6. Purdue
7. Texas Tech
8. Ohio St.
9. Gonzaga
10. Auburn
11. Clemson
12. Duke


Last time that happened-Duke started a bunch of Freshman- weird.

And since that happened, Duke has had a "Ralph" (Rodney Hood) and a "Samson" (Alex O'Connell).

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2018, 03:19 PM
I think 18-13, 8-10 would still not be enough. Even with him back and winning a single game in the ACCT to put them at 19-14.

My hunch is that with injuries, the committee looks for records with and without the player. And without a critical mass of games in conference on which to judge the team WITH the player, I think the Committee will simply exclude. I don't know exactly when Colson got injured, but I assume the only good win ND had with Colson was vs Wichita State on a neutral floor.

They're going to need him back AND get multiple (probably 3) wins in the ACCT.

- Chillin
All I know is that tonight we are ALL golden domers.

PackMan97
02-12-2018, 03:21 PM
All I know is that tonight we are ALL golden domers.

It's for the good of the ACC.

MartyClark
02-12-2018, 03:21 PM
All I know is that tonight we are ALL golden domers.

Let's win one for the Gipper!

devildeac
02-12-2018, 03:36 PM
It's for the good of the ACC.

If ND wins at the dean's myth center tonight, I may be eating someone's crow hat, err, pie. I'll never say never, but...

:mad:

jhmoss1812
02-12-2018, 03:50 PM
Not to be unkind to UVA's accomplishment this season, but it is quite odd to see a team lose at home and become the number one team. I realize that the options for the top spot are limited, but I cannot remember the last team to lose at home and ascend to the top of the mountain.

I agree. I definitely did not think we would be ranked #1 after the loss.

However, I would also argue that the primary reason we weren't #1 before this week is because of preseason rankings. I don't think Villanova deserved to be ranked above us based on resume alone.

FerryFor50
02-12-2018, 03:56 PM
I agree. I definitely did not think we would be ranked #1 after the loss.

However, I would also argue that the primary reason we weren't #1 before this week is because of preseason rankings. I don't think Villanova deserved to be ranked above us based on resume alone.

Still doesn't make any sense.

MSU beat a top 5 team (Purdue). Virgina lost to an unranked VT team. No logic on this planet says they should have been rewarded with the top spot over MSU this week.

Also strange... Duke loses to their top 25 rival by just 4 points on the road and wins their other game this week. What happens? They drop 3 spots. Rankings are dumb.

jhmoss1812
02-12-2018, 04:18 PM
Still doesn't make any sense.

MSU beat a top 5 team (Purdue). Virgina lost to an unranked VT team. No logic on this planet says they should have been rewarded with the top spot over MSU this week.

Also strange... Duke loses to their top 25 rival by just 4 points on the road and wins their other game this week. What happens? They drop 3 spots. Rankings are dumb.

No logic on this planet says that a team with MSU's resume should be rewarded with the top spot either. They have TWO top 50 wins. Their SOS is 97 with a NCSOS of 243. And they have 3 losses with that abysmal schedule.

brevity
02-12-2018, 04:21 PM
MSU beat a top 5 team (Purdue). Virgina lost to an unranked VT team. No logic on this planet says they should have been rewarded with the top spot over MSU this week.

It wasn't close to unanimous for AP voters, and even the coaches disagree.



AP Rank
Coaches Rank
Selection Committee


01. Virginia (30 first place votes)
01. Michigan State (17)
01. Virginia


02. Michigan State (21)
02. Villanova (8)
02. Villanova


03. Villanova (9)
03. Virginia (5)
03. Xavier


04. Xavier (5)
04. Xavier (1)
04. Purdue


05. Cincinnati
05. Cincinnati (1)
05. Auburn


06. Purdue
06. Texas Tech
06. Kansas


07. Texas Tech
07. Purdue
07. Duke


08. Ohio State
08. Gonzaga
08. Cincinnati


09. Gonzaga
09. Ohio State
09. Clemson


10. Auburn
10. Duke
10. Texas Tech


11. Clemson
11. Auburn
11. Michigan State


12. Duke
12. Clemson
12. North Carolina


13. Kansas
13. Kansas
13. Tennessee


14. North Carolina
14. Rhode Island
14. Ohio State


15. Saint Mary's
15. Saint Mary's
15. Arizona


16. Rhode Island
16. North Carolina
16. Oklahoma



Ridiculous. It's a field of 68 and the NCAA still won't include the undefeated Central Florida football team.

FerryFor50
02-12-2018, 04:21 PM
No logic on this planet says that a team with MSU's resume should be rewarded with the top spot either. They have TWO top 50 wins. Their SOS is 97 with a NCSOS of 243. And they have 3 losses with that abysmal schedule.

The AP polls have historically looked at recency, not overall resume. I can't remember a time when the top 2 teams lost a game and the #3 won against a ranked team but didn't claim the #1 spot.

The polls stink because there is no rhyme or reason to them. The rules change. I wish they weren't a factor in seeding the NCAAs at all, honestly. For one, teams that weren't ranked pre-season have a much higher threshold to cross, and teams that were overrated take way too long to fall out of the rankings (like Kentucky).

Wahoo2000
02-12-2018, 05:11 PM
The AP polls have historically looked at recency, not overall resume. I can't remember a time when the top 2 teams lost a game and the #3 won against a ranked team but didn't claim the #1 spot.

The polls stink because there is no rhyme or reason to them. The rules change. I wish they weren't a factor in seeding the NCAAs at all, honestly. For one, teams that weren't ranked pre-season have a much higher threshold to cross, and teams that were overrated take way too long to fall out of the rankings (like Kentucky).

There is, IMO, ZERO chance we would have been #1 if the seedings didn't come out yesterday. Guarantee that it influenced a LOT of voters to look at overall resume (what they rarely do) over recent play (what they usually do).

pfrduke
02-12-2018, 08:49 PM
Those 3 missed free throws by Mooney really opened the floodgates. Some parallels to our own win over ND - the Irish hung around for a while before the (ugh) better team pulled away down the stretch.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-12-2018, 09:09 PM
Those 3 missed free throws by Mooney really opened the floodgates. Some parallels to our own win over ND - the Irish hung around for a while before the (ugh) better team pulled away down the stretch.
He should have shot them from the three point line. Dang it.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-12-2018, 09:18 PM
Saturday’s game at Clemson will be a war. I’ve seen a few games in Littlejohn over the years, great/tough atmosphere for Duke games.

I've seen one Duke game at Littlejohn over the years in person, and it did not end well. It was the team with Quin Snyder and Danny Ferry and that crowd.

I also remember that there were almost 14,000 in Littlejohn for a Duke game when they were ranked number 1 - it was the Gene Banks Mike Gminski team of Bill Fosters....that's like 5,000 over what they now list as capacity (like Wallace Wade, Clemson shrunk the number of seats in Littlejohn).

ncexnyc
02-12-2018, 09:20 PM
Somebody should have sent a plane back to South Bend to get the Irish backcourt as it looks like they didn't make the trip tonight.

Ugly performance by Gibbs, Farrell, and Pfluger. They kept taking bad shot, after bad shot despite Geben and Mooney feasting on the Cheats.

dukelifer
02-12-2018, 09:46 PM
Somebody should have sent a plane back to South Bend to get the Irish backcourt as it looks like they didn't make the trip tonight.

Ugly performance by Gibbs, Farrell, and Pfluger. They kept taking bad shot, after bad shot despite Geben and Mooney feasting on the Cheats.

UNC feeling good about themselves. Let’s see how the handle the road again.

devildeac
02-12-2018, 10:48 PM
UNC feeling good about themselves. Let’s see how the handle the road again.

Sadly, they handled it well against the Wolfpups this weekend. Again. :mad:

96 points? Really? Why didn't the Pack "let" us score that many? At least it would've been an OT game :rolleyes:.

Spanarkel
02-13-2018, 10:01 AM
I've seen one Duke game at Littlejohn over the years in person, and it did not end well. It was the team with Quin Snyder and Danny Ferry and that crowd.

I also remember that there were almost 14,000 in Littlejohn for a Duke game when they were ranked number 1 - it was the Gene Banks Mike Gminski team of Bill Fosters...that's like 5,000 over what they now list as capacity (like Wallace Wade, Clemson shrunk the number of seats in Littlejohn).

I remember that game well as my hero Jim Spanarkel incurred a T(rare for him). Littlejohn appeared to have just over 11,000 on hand that night but the current version IS smaller.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19790221

SavDukeGrad
02-13-2018, 02:24 PM
I actually think the game the poster was referring to was in January, 1980. I was there; as a recent Duke graduate, I had driven up from Atlanta for the game. It was on a week night, and Littlejohn was LOUD! And there were hardly any Duke fans in the building. It was an extremely difficult environment for our team, and the game went to overtime. It was a terrific game, but unfortunately the good guys lost. It was Mike Gminski's senior year and Bill Foster's last year as well.

Apparently, Clemson still considers that one of their biggest wins, and it was the largest crowd in Littlejohn ever. I thought some might enjoy this article from their perspective written in 2015 about that game.

http://www.clemsontigers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209841617

I've been to Littlejohn many times; it is a very difficult place to play, especially when Duke comes to town!

Although this is my first post, I have been reading this board for years, and I really appreciate the news and insight that many posters share. I was at the Ga Tech game on Sunday night, and I hope we can replicate those first 25 minutes this week against Va Tech and Clemson. Go Duke!

chrishoke
02-13-2018, 02:46 PM
My only trip to Littlejohn was February 15, 1975 and it was an unmitigated disaster. Duke was embarrassed 100-66 (we actually beat Cemson in Durham earlier in the year). I was at UNC at the time and my roommate was from Anderson, SC. He was able to get us tickets, and I will never forgive him. By the way, that was the same year thatwe scored 109 against Wake Forest and still lost by13.

devildeac
02-13-2018, 02:50 PM
My only trip to Littlejohn was February 15, 1975 and it was an unmitigated disaster. Duke was embarrassed 100-66 (we actually beat Cemson in Durham earlier in the year). I was at UNC at the time and my roommate was from Anderson, SC. He was able to get us tickets, and I will never forgive him. By the way, that was the same year thatwe scored 109 against Wake Forest and still lost by13.

I was at that game-cheering for Duke, of course. Insane scoring.

devildeac
02-13-2018, 09:14 PM
With about 17:30 remaining in the 1st half in Miami, UVA leads the 'Canes, 1-0. Are we playing soccer or hockey tonight? :rolleyes:

Wahoo2000
02-14-2018, 12:40 AM
With about 17:30 remaining in the 1st half in Miami, UVA leads the 'Canes, 1-0. Are we playing soccer or hockey tonight? :rolleyes:

That was a big win for UVa. We have some guys kind of nicked up (physically and mentally), and now get to come off a good win going into an 8 day break. Plenty of time to rest, heal, try and "get your mojo back", coaches to make adjustments/add wrinkles. Then we (somewhat) ease back into things with GT at home then a trip to Pitt. 14-2 headed into the last week with @Louisville and home vs ND. Pick up those two wins, and I think we lock a 1 seed (even with an early ACC tourney exit).

I just hope MSU makes their way up to the 1-line, because otherwise, you KNOW they'll be in UVa's bracket.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-14-2018, 07:13 AM
Littlejohn appeared to have just over 11,000 on hand that night but the current version IS smaller.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19790221

Apparently, they crammed 13,863 into the arena that night......I happened to be in Columbia SC that night.....listened to some of the game on Clemson radio.....you couldn't even hear the announcers it was so loud. But you just knew it wasn't good news if it was that loud...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littlejohn_Coliseum

sagegrouse
02-14-2018, 09:13 AM
Pitt charged out of the gate at home last night against Boston College, leading 28-13 at the 7:13 mark of the first half. I noted that the margin had narrowed to two points by the half. BC won, 81-58, which means the Eagles outscored the Panthers by 68 to 30 over the last 27 minutes of the game.

Is it possible that Kevin Stallings has coached his last game at Pitt?

Troublemaker
02-14-2018, 09:30 AM
Pitt charged out of the gate at home last night against Boston College, leading 28-13 at the 7:13 mark of the first half. I noted that the margin had narrowed to two points by the half. BC won, 81-58, which means the Eagles outscored the Panthers by 68 to 30 over the last 27 minutes of the game.

Is it possible that Kevin Stallings has coached his last game at Pitt?

Unless he hasn't nurtured good relationships with his superiors at Pitt, I don't see why. Everyone knew that this season was Year 1 of a rebuild. Last season, he inherited a senior laden team from Jamie Dixon, but this season was his first in coaching his own recruited players. As these players are all freshmen but not highly-ranked like Duke's freshmen, the predictable disaster has ensued.

PackMan97
02-14-2018, 09:50 AM
Is it possible that Kevin Stallings has coached his last game at Pitt?

Life around the ACC would be so much easier if everyone would fire coaches who fail spectacularly in the first few seasons. Would love to see what would have become of Duke or the Cheats without Coach K or Dean's Myth.

wobatus
02-14-2018, 03:44 PM
Life around the ACC would be so much easier if everyone would fire coaches who fail spectacularly in the first few seasons. Would love to see what would have become of Duke or the Cheats without Coach K or Dean's Myth.

Coincidentally losing to BC. Christian was 4-14 his first year with inherited players (just like Stallings last year). Then went 0-18 (where Stallings is likely heading), 2-16, and now 6-7. Things looking up.

The Pete used to get pretty packed up there, and Dixon had them in the NCAAs not long ago, and a perennial top 10 to top 20 Kenpom team not long ago. Stallings is a bit of a prickly guy, so not sure how much rope he has. He did ok at Vandy even if he wore out his welcome and started slumping. Sixty % winning percentage is maybe a smidge above par there. He seems to do better with lesser guys than when he gets higher ranked recruits and expectations. But when the whole team is so young and not a bunch of 4 and 5 stars it's tough.

The cost of a buyout may be the only thing keeping him there.

pfrduke
02-14-2018, 09:00 PM
Great comeback by FSU to force overtime against Clemson in Tallahassee

arnie
02-14-2018, 09:21 PM
Great comeback by FSU to force overtime against Clemson in Tallahassee

Shelton Mitchell with a hard fall - concussion likely? FSU up 4 with 9 secs to go

arnie
02-14-2018, 09:30 PM
Tigers lose - Duke tied for 2nd

PackMan97
02-14-2018, 11:19 PM
State holds off Syracuse to get a huge road win over a fellow bubble team. The Pack really needed this one after dropping two straight.

devildeac
02-14-2018, 11:32 PM
State holds off Syracuse to get a huge road win over a fellow bubble team. The Pack really needed this one after dropping two straight.

Quite happy to see this.

PackMan97
02-14-2018, 11:40 PM
Quite happy to see this.

Quite happy to see the Deacs win as well. Look forward to the day all three major NC Universities have great basketball teams. Sadly, State really needs to win @wake to solidify our NCAA resume.

PackMan97
02-15-2018, 12:28 AM
There are three hall of fame coaches in the ACC and 13 conference games into his tenure, Coach Keatts is 3-1 against them with a win over each of them.

duketaylor
02-15-2018, 12:31 AM
"Quite happy to see the Deacs win as well. Look forward to the day all three major NC Universities have great basketball teams. Sadly, State really needs to win @wake to solidify our NCAA resume."

That's funny. Is neither Davidson nor ECU a "major" university?

PackMan97
02-15-2018, 12:37 AM
"Quite happy to see the Deacs win as well. Look forward to the day all three major NC Universities have great basketball teams. Sadly, State really needs to win @wake to solidify our NCAA resume."

That's funny. Is neither Davidson nor ECU a "major" university?

Permission to change major to ACC? No offense intended to the other outstanding institutions of higher learning in NC.

duketaylor
02-15-2018, 01:09 AM
Permission to change major to ACC? No offense intended to the other outstanding institutions of higher learning in NC.

Granted!!:cool:

HereBeforeCoachK
02-15-2018, 06:19 AM
There are three hall of fame coaches in the ACC and 13 conference games into his tenure, Coach Keatts is 3-1 against them with a win over each of them.

Big fan of Keatts, thought he was awesome at UNC W and a home run hire for State. That said, the 3-1 start stat is interesting, but not necessarily meaningful. Jim Larranaga has a winning record versus K. And K is 11-1 versus Izzo.

OldPhiKap
02-15-2018, 06:56 AM
There are three hall of fame coaches in the ACC and 13 conference games into his tenure, Coach Keatts is 3-1 against them with a win over each of them.

Reason to brag. Would hope the Pack is finally back!

CDu
02-15-2018, 08:02 AM
Big fan of Keatts, thought he was awesome at UNC W and a home run hire for State. That said, the 3-1 start stat is interesting, but not necessarily meaningful. Jim Larranaga has a winning record versus K. And K is 11-1 versus Izzo.

Well, Larranaga and Coach K are both fantastic cosches, so it still seems meaningful to me.

PackMan97
02-15-2018, 08:24 AM
Big fan of Keatts, thought he was awesome at UNC W and a home run hire for State. That said, the 3-1 start stat is interesting, but not necessarily meaningful. Jim Larranaga has a winning record versus K. And K is 11-1 versus Izzo.

Shall I go see how long it took Herb (1-5 his first season or 1-7 including MD), Lowe (2-8 his first two seasons if you count Gary Williams add 0-3) or Gottfried (0-5 his first season) to get to three wins vs the hall of fame coaches from their day? I left out Robinson since he owned The Cheats and I know we swept them his first season.

Considering all of his predecessors were fired for not being able to beat the better teams, it is meanIngful.

OldPhiKap
02-15-2018, 09:03 AM
Well, Larranaga and Coach K are both fantastic coaches, so it still seems meaningful to me.

I agree that Larranaga is one of the better coaches in the conference, easily. The U is a football-first school, so I am guessing that recruiting is a bit hampered by that. Still, he has made 3 of the last 5 NCAA tourneys and may well make it again this year (would be three years in a row).

It's a bit early to proclaim Keatts as the great answer -- Gott made it to the NCAA his first four seasons IIRC before two crash-and-burn seasons, and Sendek made five or six in a row before being run off for boredom. But a promising start, and a great accomplishment in his first go-round. He has brought some pride back to my Wolf Pack Nation friends, and anyone who beats the Cheats is a friend of mine.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-15-2018, 09:27 AM
Well, Larranaga and Coach K are both fantastic cosches, so it still seems meaningful to me.

I"m gonna respectfully hold back awarding the label of fantastic on Larranaga. I remember back to his amazing run with GW to the Final Four (with some Tar Babies in his path) that he seemed totally clueless as to why this was all happening.

I also have noticed that Miami almost always bombs out in the NCAAs way too early, even when they have really good teams. They share that affliction with Florida State, who at times has scary length and talent. Must be something with Florida.

And I would add that while Larranaga beats K at times, he almost never has a team over all as good as Duke. He can get his guys up for their Super Bowl...the Duke game....but he doesn't seem to be able to make a run when it counts. Dittos Leonard Hamilton.

(as a cultural note and FUN FACT: Larranaga did add an accent mark over the last N in his name when he got to Miami. Apparently he does have Cuban heritage...)

PackMan97
02-15-2018, 10:01 AM
It's a bit early to proclaim Keatts as the great answer -- Gott made it to the NCAA his first four seasons IIRC before two crash-and-burn seasons, and Sendek made five or six in a row before being run off for boredom. But a promising start, and a great accomplishment in his first go-round. He has brought some pride back to my Wolf Pack Nation friends, and anyone who beats the Cheats is a friend of mine.

Slow down, State isn't in the NCAAT yet! We still have some winning to do. It is odd that this is the first time I can recall State being on the buble but only needing wins. Usually we have the wins but lack the signature win to impress the committee. This season, we have plenty of strong wins, we only need enough wins to get us into consideration and our strength of wins will get us into the tourney.

I can't tell you how excited I was for Sendek to arrive at State. We actually went to the ACCT final (beating Duke along the way and WON an NIT game. For reals!). Lowe I must say I was less than enthused, but making it to the ACCT finals and the NIT gave us some hope plus recruiting! Gottfried I was also quite excited to see come to Raleigh, we was jobbed in the ACCT against Carolina (but still won two games) and made it to the sweet 16. So, trust me I understand about not getting too excited over the first year results. :) Been there, done that.

To me, the biggest difference are the quality of wins and the way we've won. Four RPI top 20 wins! Do you know how many losses NC State has had outside of the RPI Top 50? Four and three of them were away from home. Interestingly enough, that's only one more than Duke. So, I'm excited. I don't know what the future will bring. State could easily stumble @Wake, home vs BC and be sitting at home this March. That's what Wolfpack teams of old would do.

OldPhiKap
02-15-2018, 10:28 AM
Slow down, State isn't in the NCAAT yet! We still have some winning to do. It is odd that this is the first time I can recall State being on the buble but only needing wins. Usually we have the wins but lack the signature win to impress the committee. This season, we have plenty of strong wins, we only need enough wins to get us into consideration and our strength of wins will get us into the tourney.

I can't tell you how excited I was for Sendek to arrive at State. We actually went to the ACCT final (beating Duke along the way and WON an NIT game. For reals!). Lowe I must say I was less than enthused, but making it to the ACCT finals and the NIT gave us some hope plus recruiting! Gottfried I was also quite excited to see come to Raleigh, we was jobbed in the ACCT against Carolina (but still won two games) and made it to the sweet 16. So, trust me I understand about not getting too excited over the first year results. :) Been there, done that.

To me, the biggest difference are the quality of wins and the way we've won. Four RPI top 20 wins! Do you know how many losses NC State has had outside of the RPI Top 50? Four and three of them were away from home. Interestingly enough, that's only one more than Duke. So, I'm excited. I don't know what the future will bring. State could easily stumble @Wake, home vs BC and be sitting at home this March. That's what Wolfpack teams of old would do.

Sorry, I was saying that Miami is likely in. Their last five are against Syracuse, @ ND, BC, @ UNC and VT. At 7-6, I would think they finish at least 10-8 although I could see 11-7. 9-9 would be a bad result although stranger things have happened.

State's schedule looks promising as well: 7-6 with @ Wake, BC, @ FSU, @ GT and Louisville. Also think 10-8 likely although you gotta play 'em out.

PackMan97
02-15-2018, 10:45 AM
Sorry, I was saying that Miami is likely in. Their last five are against Syracuse, @ ND, BC, @ UNC and VT. At 7-6, I would think they finish at least 10-8 although I could see 11-7. 9-9 would be a bad result although stranger things have happened.

State's schedule looks promising as well: 7-6 with @ Wake, BC, @ FSU, @ GT and Louisville. Also think 10-8 likely although you gotta play 'em out.

9-9 would leave me sweating, but I think we come out of the right side as long as we beat GT and UofL. Why not worry about @Wake? That would likely be a Q2 loss where GT would be a Q3. Winning against UofL is important because they are a bubble team that is SERIOUSLY lacking any significant win outside of @FSU back in early January (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi/_/sort/RPI/teamId/97).

Looking at BC's record...WOW! They only have one loss outside of Q1. That's right, 9 Q1 losses and 1 Q2 loss (to VT at home). They've quietly become a very solid team. They play ND, @State, Syracuse, and @FSU. They could be a serious bubble burster...and put together three or four wins, maybe they can get up onto that bubble?

left_hook_lacey
02-15-2018, 11:02 AM
Big fan of Keatts, thought he was awesome at UNC W and a home run hire for State. That said, the 3-1 start stat is interesting, but not necessarily meaningful. Jim Larranaga has a winning record versus K. And K is 11-1 versus Izzo.

I think that's meaningful for State in that, I think they'd exchange their recent success, or lack there of, with what MSU has done in the last decade.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-15-2018, 12:25 PM
I think that's meaningful for State in that, I think they'd exchange their recent success, or lack there of, with what MSU has done in the last decade.

Well I'm a Keatts fan and it is meaningful in that none of their previous 4,5,6 coaches have done that to start. I just think that sometimes these odd head to heads can be attributed to a lot of factors and can be over read by fans and media. K even said as much about the 11-1 record V Izzo.

I remember in the early 90's when K had elevated Duke past NC as a program, the Heel fans kept going back to Dean's Myth (BTW, congrats who ever came up with that) overall record against K - which at the time was built on K rebuilding during Dean's prime. And then we got into periods where Duke was the national program and this game was a bigger deal for Carolina than Duke (total reversal of 70s and early 80s). Carolina was winning about half the gams against Duke over stretches where Duke was accomplishing a lot more than Carolina was.

All of that long windedness to say....head to heads can be screwy and not really indicative of much.

PackMan97
02-15-2018, 12:42 PM
All of that long windedness to say...head to heads can be screwy and not really indicative of much.

Unless they are completely one-sided. Gottfried was a combined 5-19 against Carolina and Duke. Sendek was a mind numbing 8-38 against Duke and Carolina. Remember, this is over a stretch of time that included 9 trips to the NCAAT, 4 trips to the ACCT Finals so it's not to say State completely sucked. It also includes the Doh Years which should have been some easy wins.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-15-2018, 12:51 PM
Unless they are completely one-sided. Gottfried was a combined 5-19 against Carolina and Duke. Sendek was a mind numbing 8-38 against Duke and Carolina. Remember, this is over a stretch of time that included 9 trips to the ACCT, 4 trips to the ACCT Finals so it's not to say State completely sucked. It also includes the Doh Years which should have been some easy wins.

PackMan thanks for those figures, and I was a bit clumsy in my language...what I meant to say, and should have said, is that when a particular coaching match up head to head is at odds with how strong the teams have been, then you shouldn't read much into them. Sendek winning 8 of 46 and Gottfried winning 5 of 24 is probably about right given the relative strengths of the programs in those years. Larranaga winning more than half against K is not.

And K winning 11 of 12 against Izz is mind numbing. I mean, 8-4 or 9-3 would probably be more representative...hopefully I'm making my point better this time.

gofurman
02-16-2018, 11:59 PM
I"m gonna respectfully hold back awarding the label of fantastic on Larranaga. I remember back to his amazing run with GW to the Final Four (with some Tar Babies in his path) that he seemed totally clueless as to why this was all happening.

I also have noticed that Miami almost always bombs out in the NCAAs way too early, even when they have really good teams. They share that affliction with Florida State, who at times has scary length and talent. Must be something with Florida.

And I would add that while Larranaga beats K at times, he almost never has a team over all as good as Duke. He can get his guys up for their Super Bowl...the Duke game...but he doesn't seem to be able to make a run when it counts. Dittos Leonard Hamilton.

(as a cultural note and FUN FACT: Larranaga did add an accent mark over the last N in his name when he got to Miami. Apparently he does have Cuban heritage...)

With regard to football schools. FSU. Miami. Clemson. VTech. I would say FSU recruits the best (they have had several MCD AA guys - sometimes as many as UNC ) but does the least w talent relatively. Clemson and VT coach better than FSU but have less talent/recruiting . And Miami does the best overall w combining talent and coaching

That's not a big slam on Hamilton. He has a lock job as FSU is happy making the tourney every year and he recruits so well I think it overcomes his coaching a little bit. And that's ok. Half the battle is recruiting. And he wins that ... I think FSU had 3 pro level guys last year or so? Bacon , XRM and the forward

PackMan97
02-17-2018, 01:06 AM
With regard to football schools. FSU. Miami. Clemson. VTech. I would say FSU recruits the best (they have had several MCD AA guys - sometimes as many as UNC ) but does the least w talent relatively. Clemson and VT coach better than FSU but have less talent/recruiting . And Miami does the best overall w combining talent and coaching

That's not a big slam on Hamilton. He has a lock job as FSU is happy making the tourney every year and he recruits so well I think it overcomes his coaching a little bit. And that's ok. Half the battle is recruiting. And he wins that ... I think FSU had 3 pro level guys last year or so? Bacon , XRM and the forward

Hamilton does have an ACC title to his name as well. Winning things always gets you some leeway. It helps that football has returned to prominence. Nothing worse than being an average coach in the off sport when the main sport is struggling, but nothing better when that main sport is winning.

duketaylor
02-17-2018, 01:26 AM
but I believe Larranaga took George Mason, not GW (2004?), to the FF. My daughter is a GW grad and my twin boys are at GMU, so I'm forced to know certain things.:)

I think he's an excellent coach and each and every time we face his team I'm very concerned. Much like McKillop, Jon Chaney in the day and a few others. Boeheim is another. Coach Knight, also.

Bob Green
02-17-2018, 06:07 AM
Saturday
[36]Miami (7-5) (-5) hosts [46]Syracuse (-4) (12:00, CBS)
[114]Georgia Tech (4-8) (+4) hosts [40]Virginia Tech (7-5) (12:00, ESPN2)
[81]Boston College (5-7) (+1) hosts [37]Notre Dame (5-7) (4:00, ACCNE)
[90]Wake Forest (2-11) (-1) hosts [59]NC State (6-6) (4:00, ACCNE)
[28]Louisville (8-5) (+1) hosts [10]North Carolina (8-5) (8:15, ESPN)



There are several key games today in the fight for position in the conference standings and tournament seeding. For starters, the three teams at 7-6 (Miami/Virginia Tech/N.C. State) all play games they should win but two of the three (Virginia Tech/N.C. State) will have to win on the road and that has been a big challenge in the ACC this season. Whichever of the three win and improve to 8-6 will find themselves tied in the standings (5th place) with the loser of the Louisville vs. North Carolina game.* While I desire to avoid the "must win game" moniker, the point in the season where teams must win to secure a double bye in the ACCT has arrived.

* North Carolina will have a half game lead at 9-6 if they lose.

I'm looking forward to another full day of ACC basketball.

arnie
02-17-2018, 07:35 AM
There are several key games today in the fight for position in the conference standings and tournament seeding. For starters, the three teams at 7-6 (Miami/Virginia Tech/N.C. State) all play games they should win but two of the three (Virginia Tech/N.C. State) will have to win on the road and that has been a big challenge in the ACC this season. Whichever of the three win and improve to 8-6 will find themselves tied in the standings (5th place) with the loser of the Louisville vs. North Carolina game.* While I desire to avoid the "must win game" moniker, the point in the season where teams must win to secure a double bye in the ACCT has arrived.

* North Carolina will have a half game lead at 9-6 if they lose.

I'm looking forward to another full day of ACC basketball.

Vegas not on the Pack train. Wake favored slightly over NCSU.

devildeac
02-17-2018, 08:34 AM
Am I allowed to cheer for Yum, Hurricane or Yum, Flood today instead of Ymm, Beer and hope for a double forfeit? :o:rolleyes:

Troublemaker
02-17-2018, 08:50 AM
With regard to football schools. FSU. Miami. Clemson. VTech. I would say FSU recruits the best (they have had several MCD AA guys - sometimes as many as UNC ) but does the least w talent relatively. Clemson and VT coach better than FSU but have less talent/recruiting . And Miami does the best overall w combining talent and coaching

That's not a big slam on Hamilton. He has a lock job as FSU is happy making the tourney every year and he recruits so well I think it overcomes his coaching a little bit. And that's ok. Half the battle is recruiting. And he wins that ... I think FSU had 3 pro level guys last year or so? Bacon , XRM and the forward

Actually, before last season, FSU had missed the NCAAT four consecutive years. His seat was probably starting to get hot, and if I were him, I'd make the tourney this season, too. They are in as of today but have work to do.

That said, I'm not sure I agree that Hamilton underperforms his talent. He pretty much always has great size and good athleticism on the roster, true, but the players are generally very raw. For example, he likes to take in uncoordinated 7'2"+ human beings and make decent basketball players out of about half of them. It's an interesting niche to carve out, and when Hamilton retires, I'm not sure where the Christ Koumadjes and Boris Bojanovskies of the world will go.

PackMan97
02-17-2018, 09:44 AM
Vegas not on the Pack train. Wake favored slightly over NCSU.

@wake has been a thorn in State's side for a very long time. Both BB and FB.

DU82
02-17-2018, 10:36 AM
Am I allowed to cheer for Yum, Hurricane or Yum, Flood today instead of Ymm, Beer and hope for a double forfeit? :o:rolleyes:

Pimps over Cheaters.

devildeac
02-17-2018, 10:42 AM
Pimps over Cheaters.

Yea, that's the ultimate decision. ABc. That match-up still disgusts me however.

richardjackson199
02-17-2018, 10:52 AM
Vegas not on the Pack train. Wake favored slightly over NCSU.

I would be inclined to say Vegas is wrong. Danny Manning is by far the worst coach in the ACC, and his end-of-game coaching is um, unbelievable. Kevin Keatts Kan Koach. So I picked State over Wake on the Degenerate gambler fake money contest. It seemed like an easy decision.

I never bet real money on these games (pie or beer, now that's a different story), because Vegas often just knows something. But the Joe Q in me says this comes down to koaching, and that State wins even if Wake's shooters get hot. (Yes after the GOAT retires, the spelling should be changed to Koaching as a tribute).

And yes, my annual performance in the Degenerate gamblers contest proves that the Joe Q Bettor instinct in me is strong (not sharp). So make of my picks what you will! :)

HereBeforeCoachK
02-17-2018, 10:52 AM
That said, I'm not sure I agree that Hamilton underperforms his talent.

I think I would totally make that case. Last year they had awesome talent, and their performance in the NCAA was embarrassing. They got routed early. I think part of FSU's post season problem in hoops is kind of like Miami's, State's, Va Techs, etc - they look at Duke games as their Super Bowl, and they are demonstrably not as intense or animated in any other setting, including the NCAAs. Thus they either miss the NCAAs because they lost 4 absurd games, or they get flamed early in the NCAA.

The eye test tells me playing Duke is more important to some of these schools than even NCAA success. Makes no sense, but it sure looks that way.

duketaylor
02-17-2018, 11:21 AM
About to start snowing in Loserville, so should be wintery for tonight's game, not good news for the cheats, IMO. Hate to, but will be pulling for Cardinals, duh.

JasonEvans
02-17-2018, 01:49 PM
Hey, Miami... you do know that winning at home against middling teams like Syracuse is really important when you are sorta close to the bubble, right?

Sheesh!

-Jason "OTOH, maybe this is how the ACC gets 10 teams into the dance... by having the middle just beat up on each other so everyone gets to .500" Evans

CDu
02-17-2018, 05:19 PM
Hey, Miami... you do know that winning at home against middling teams like Syracuse is really important when you are sorta close to the bubble, right?

Sheesh!

-Jason "OTOH, maybe this is how the ACC gets 10 teams into the dance... by having the middle just beat up on each other so everyone gets to .500" Evans

Miami hasn’t been the same since losing Bruce Brown.

PackMan97
02-17-2018, 05:28 PM
Hey, Miami... you do know that winning at home against middling teams like Syracuse is really important when you are sorta close to the bubble, right?

Sheesh!

-Jason "OTOH, maybe this is how the ACC gets 10 teams into the dance... by having the middle just beat up on each other so everyone gets to .500" Evans

Miami beating Syracuse is not nearly as important as Syracuse beating Miami.

The team that needs a win in the biggest way is Louisville.

devildeac
02-17-2018, 05:37 PM
Miami beating Syracuse is not nearly as important as Syracuse beating Miami.

The team that needs a win in the biggest way is Louisville.

I'm all in for UL's foe tonight to embark on a drain swirl. Unlikely to happen but I'm cheering for that scenario.

PackMan97
02-17-2018, 06:07 PM
Four games are final four today. Four road wins. The home team is due to win a game today.

Troublemaker
02-17-2018, 06:36 PM
I think I would totally make that case. Last year they had awesome talent, and their performance in the NCAA was embarrassing. They got routed early. I think part of FSU's post season problem in hoops is kind of like Miami's, State's, Va Techs, etc - they look at Duke games as their Super Bowl, and they are demonstrably not as intense or animated in any other setting, including the NCAAs. Thus they either miss the NCAAs because they lost 4 absurd games, or they get flamed early in the NCAA.

The eye test tells me playing Duke is more important to some of these schools than even NCAA success. Makes no sense, but it sure looks that way.

Every ACC team besides UNC got wrecked in the tournament last season. So unless all ACC coaches stink except Roy Williams...

But, more to the point, FSU's talent wasn't "awesome." XRM was an inefficient/inconsistent PG, and Bacon was a shooting specialist who couldn't shoot. Jonathan Isaac was awesome indeed, but that's not enough.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-17-2018, 06:48 PM
Every ACC team besides UNC got wrecked in the tournament last season. So unless all ACC coaches stink except Roy Williams...

But, more to the point, FSU's talent wasn't "awesome." XRM was an inefficient/inconsistent PG, and Bacon was a shooting specialist who couldn't shoot. Jonathan Isaac was awesome indeed, but that's not enough.

Dude, not just talking about last year. Perhaps you can point to the big NCAA runs that Miami, FSU, Clemson, have EVER had? Or the last time NC State did. Please. You are a troublmaker. That's twice you've jumped ugly on me for no reason. If that floats your boat......knock yourself out.

Troublemaker
02-17-2018, 06:57 PM
Dude, not just talking about last year. Perhaps you can point to the big NCAA runs that Miami, FSU, Clemson, have EVER had? Or the last time NC State did. Please. You are a troublmaker. That's twice you've jumped ugly on me for no reason. If that floats your boat...knock yourself out.

Don't be so paranoid. I'm allowed to disagree with you civilly, which is what I did. (And you are allowed to disagree with me civilly, which is what you did.) It's just discussion. And I just don't think FSU's talent was "awesome."

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-17-2018, 09:02 PM
Four games are final four today. Four road wins. The home team is due to win a game today.
Damn you, PackMan! Why did you have to go and jinx the outcome of this year’s Cheater Classic?

ipatent
02-17-2018, 09:07 PM
Still early, but put a fork in Louisville.

PackMan97
02-17-2018, 09:17 PM
Damn you, PackMan! Why did you have to go and jinx the outcome of this year’s Cheater Classic?

I assure you, I have very little effect on what Carolina does... Otherwise things would be far different in orange county

dukelifer
02-17-2018, 10:30 PM
Every ACC team besides UNC got wrecked in the tournament last season. So unless all ACC coaches stink except Roy Williams...

But, more to the point, FSU's talent wasn't "awesome." XRM was an inefficient/inconsistent PG, and Bacon was a shooting specialist who couldn't shoot. Jonathan Isaac was awesome indeed, but that's not enough.

Looking more and more like UNC has found their mojo- I sure hope they lose it soon or they FF bound.

Troublemaker
02-17-2018, 10:45 PM
Looking more and more like UNC has found their mojo- I sure hope they lose it soon or they FF bound.

UNC's looking good but their opponents in the tourney will have something to say about that. Still a projected 3 seed or so at this point.

dukelifer
02-17-2018, 10:57 PM
UNC's looking good but their opponents in the tourney will have something to say about that. Still a projected 3 seed or so at this point.

They will get a 2. Berry's experience and competitiveness is a huge plus for them. Clearly anything can happen and they are not deep- but they have all the elements to make a run and Pinson is playing like a McDonald's All American. They are winning by big margins.

ipatent
02-17-2018, 11:00 PM
They will get a 2. Berry's experience and competitiveness is a huge plus for them. Clearly anything can happen and they are not deep- but they have all the elements to make a run and Pinson is playing like a McDonald's All American. They are winning by big margins.

Maybe, but there is a lot of basketball left to be played before selection Sunday.

Troublemaker
02-17-2018, 11:06 PM
They will get a 2. Berry's experience and competitiveness is a huge plus for them. Clearly anything can happen and they are not deep- but they have all the elements to make a run and Pinson is playing like a McDonald's All American. They are winning by big margins.

Let's make a bet. UNC goes further in the NCAAT than Duke, I ship you a pie. If Duke goes further in the NCAAT than UNC, you ship me a pie.

I've offered this to you before.

PackMan97
02-17-2018, 11:11 PM
Let's make a bet. UNC goes further in the NCAAT than Duke, I ship you a pie. If Duke goes further in the NCAAT than UNC, you ship me a pie.

I've offered this to you before.

how about if Duke or Carolina fo further than State, you both ship me a pie?

CDu
02-17-2018, 11:18 PM
They will get a 2. Berry's experience and competitiveness is a huge plus for them. Clearly anything can happen and they are not deep- but they have all the elements to make a run and Pinson is playing like a McDonald's All American. They are winning by big margins.

They won’t get a 2 if they lose 2 more, and they project to lose two more. Nine losses is a lot, especially with so many major conference teams at 6 or less.

richardjackson199
02-17-2018, 11:30 PM
They won’t get a 2 if they lose 2 more, and they project to lose two more. Nine losses is a lot, especially with so many major conference teams at 6 or less.

Hopefully they lose 2 more to Duke before Selection Sunday, causing Wheat to push the pie bet with Jason. It could happen.

The Cheats have been scoring a lot of points in recent games for a few weeks now. The focus next time needs to be on defense, rebounding, and getting stops.

It's tough because they have lots of players who can shoot and put up lots of points - Cam Johnson has been a problem, Kenny Williams has been much improved, Maye, and Berry obviously. Stopping those 4, getting back very quickly on D, and finishing the possession with a defensive rebound is necessary to beat the cheats. As has been stated many times - it's the opposite from last year when they couldn't shoot but were monsters inside (Meeks, Hicks, Bradley, and even Jackson were good around the rim).

Can't wait to take them down in Cameron, hopefully by a lot.

gofurman
02-18-2018, 12:16 AM
Hopefully they lose 2 more to Duke before Selection Sunday, causing Wheat to push the pie bet with Jason. It could happen.

The Cheats have been scoring a lot of points in recent games for a few weeks now. The focus next time needs to be on defense, rebounding, and getting stops.

It's tough because they have lots of players who can shoot and put up lots of points - Cam Johnson has been a problem, Kenny Williams has been much improved, Maye, and Berry obviously. Stopping those 4, getting back very quickly on D, and finishing the possession with a defensive rebound is necessary to beat the cheats. As has been stated many times - it's the opposite from last year when they couldn't shoot but were monsters inside (Meeks, Hicks, Bradley, and even Jackson were good around the rim).

Can't wait to take them down in Cameron, hopefully by a lot.

Unc is improving. Esp on o. As said, Berry is a great PG. shoots threes, passes. Drives. Just killed Louisville. Maye does Matt harping work. And that kills me because he made up for a good bit of what they lost up,front. He gets a ton of put backs. Seems to know where to be. Always around the rim tipping ball. The X factors have become Cam Johnson who was hurt at start of year ... Good three shooter and now Williams. Now they have four threats when they started w two (Berry and Maye). Louisville and others have had no answer to stop unc recently. You can still score on UNC but their o is getting v good ! And I hate that , let's beat em. I really don't want a team of Luke Maye and Cam Johnson etc going farther than ours ...

wobatus
02-18-2018, 06:05 AM
They will get a 2. Berry's experience and competitiveness is a huge plus for them. Clearly anything can happen and they are not deep- but they have all the elements to make a run and Pinson is playing like a McDonald's All American. They are winning by big margins.



http://barttorvik.com/tourneycast.php

Saratoga2
02-18-2018, 08:41 AM
Unc is improving. Esp on o. As said, Berry is a great PG. shoots threes, passes. Drives. Just killed Louisville. Maye does Matt harping work. And that kills me because he made up for a good bit of what they lost up,front. He gets a ton of put backs. Seems to know where to be. Always around the rim tipping ball. The X factors have become Cam Johnson who was hurt at start of year ... Good three shooter and now Williams. Now they have four threats when they started w two (Berry and Maye). Louisville and others have had no answer to stop unc recently. You can still score on UNC but their o is getting v good ! And I hate that , let's beat em. I really don't want a team of Luke Maye and Cam Johnson etc going farther than ours ...

Louisville played poorly throughout the game.

dukelifer
02-18-2018, 09:41 AM
Let's make a bet. UNC goes further in the NCAAT than Duke, I ship you a pie. If Duke goes further in the NCAAT than UNC, you ship me a pie.

I've offered this to you before.

Hmmm. Need to think about this one.

wobatus
02-18-2018, 10:05 AM
http://barttorvik.com/tourneycast.php


Sorry bad link. Basically his tourney simulations project UNC as a 1.9 seed. Same as Duke. Projects Virginia as 50% odds of making the Final 4, 23% champs. Duke about 31% FF and 9% title. UNC 16.4% FF odds, 2.7% title. FWIW.

Michigan State will be tough. Cincy a nice change of pace. 'Nova would make them a mini-dynasty. Could someone pull a UConn 2014 surprise?

PackMan97
02-18-2018, 10:46 AM
Every ACC team besides UNC got wrecked in the tournament last season. So unless all ACC coaches stink except Roy Williams...


Not every ACC team. NC State was undefeated in the NCAAT the past two seasons. :/

ncexnyc
02-18-2018, 11:50 AM
Not sure what to say about the Cheats recent run. Quite a few people on this forum wrote them off when they lost three straight, but then that shouldn't have surprised me as people have been writing them off these past few years.

Despite the fun fodder Ol' Roy provides us with on a yearly basis the man can obviously coach and his kids buy into whatever it is he's selling. If anyone doubts that experience counts, then you just having been watching the Cheats over the past few years. Their team is top heavy again this year and as I stated earlier this season they just needed that third scorer to solidify their team and both Williams and Johnson seem to be that guy, which is even worse. Their ability to spread you out has made Pinson an even bigger weapon as he is quite adept at taking his man off the dribble. That feeds into their pack rebounding mentality as there's plenty of room for the smaller players to find openings to the basket for boards.

Considering who they've beaten during their recent run I'd be very skeptical of stating, "There's plenty of basketball left" and, "They're projected to lose X amount more." Barring a major injury, this team is a very dangerous, experienced team that is FF capable.

devildeac
02-18-2018, 01:25 PM
Am I allowed to cheer for Yum, Hurricane or Yum, Flood today instead of Ymm, Beer and hope for a double forfeit? :o:rolleyes:

Perhaps -jk was correct when he privately suggested I should have posted/suggested Yum, Meteor for this contest. :(