MBB: Duke 80, Ga Tech 69 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[duke4ever19]

No bashing the players or the coaching staff. :p

I see you in-game thread!

[proelitedota]

I have cemented my view that home teams in the ACC, us withstanding, get major ref help during a narrative moment. I.e. today's run by GT. It was pretty obvious that they were getting away with lots of physically in the interior, and we were not. After 9 years of watching every Duke game, that is the conclusion I came to. I invite someone to challenge me.

[DukeWarhead]

Can’t remember a win I enjoyed less

[YmoBeThere]

Got a little ragged at the end there. When Grayson and Duval are together and the shot clock is running short, there is still confusion...

[TKG]

We won. Still searching for that elusive 40 minutes of consistent play/effort/focus.

[jwillfan]

Not bashing. Just puzzled at our inability to put teams away and go away from what worked that got us a big lead

[53n206]

Headline said "Bagley out for game". Should it have said "Duke out for season"? Team cannot close.

[Furniture]

Grayson scores without Bags....

[Fish80]

Not always pretty, but a road win in conference without Bagley. I’ll take it.

[WakeDevil]

We were enjoying the performance by Dr. Jekyll and then he goes and invites his friend Mr. Hyde.

[slower]

Headline said "Bagley out for game". Should it have said "Duke out for season"? Team cannot close.

Now, now - one must not be a "Debbie Downer" around here.

[drummerdevil]

A win is a win. Let's have Bagley back for the next one, preferably with GA still doing this

[HereBeforeCoachK]

We were enjoying the performance by Dr. Jekyll and then he goes and invites his friend Mr. Hyde.

This ^^^^^

[ipatent]

A great first 30 minutes. Then it got a little ragged, but an ACC road win without your best player is not to be sniffed at.

[CameronDuke]

Two straight games for Bolden showing immense improvement scoring the ball, rebounding, and altering shots. He is LONG. He will play in the NBA one day. Casey Sanders 2.0 ala 2001?

Carter with 19 and 10 in his hometown. Kid is a workhorse.

Grayson came out hot and his shot looked good early. He maintained his aggressiveness throughout the game and continually looked to attack the rim off the dribble. He had 23 points but that was on 10-10 free throws. He didn't shoot well overall (5-14 and 3-10 from 3) but he looked better in that he was more aggressive. Scoring 23 points will hopefully help his confidence.

11 turnovers is still too many. But 7 blocks was nice.

Duke out rebounded GT 44-39 and shot 21-26 from the line! That's 80.8%!!! Keep that up.

A win is a win. Hopefully Bagley will be back for the Virginia Tech game Wednesday night. 20-5, 8-4. I'm calling it now. Duke is going on a long win streak to include running the table the rest of the way and advancing to the ACC Championship game.

[jipops]

About 25 minutes of really good basketball. And the rest was just total trash on both ends of the floor. The offense became an outright mess. Nobody moved without the ball, nobody screened. And nobody was in a position to even receive a pass.

Mentally we're just not there. But I'll take an ACC road win.

[WVDUKEFAN]

I have to believe their comeback was directly attributable to our substitutions. We let off the gas.

[gofurman]

We were enjoying the performance by Dr. Jekyll and then he goes and invites his friend Mr. Hyde.

Any road win is good. Esp without Bagley. Most important Allen got going !!! Stat. Duke 16-1 w Allen over 10 points. 4-4(? When he scores 9
Or less

[TKG]

Wonder if bringing Duval off the bench was a one time stunt or if this marks a change in direction?

[ncexnyc]

Silly me. I actually thought tonight was going to be our first complete 40 minute, going away, wire to wire ACC win. Maybe next time.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Wonder if bringing Duval off the bench was a one time stunt or if this marks a change in direction?

I have the same question about the zone. Are we going to stick with it?

[Saratoga2]

A win but definitely not satisfying. The team ran smoothly when Grayson ran the point and Duval was on the bench. They were getting more ball movement and were finding scorers in position. Grayson was getting opportunities and the bigs were getting shots. When Duval came in, even in the first half, I didn't think the team undersstood their roles as well and I felt the team offense stagnated to some degree, even though Duval did show some ability to get to the basket. The defense in the first half was very active.

In the second half, we turned the game from a rout into a much closer game. I thought our offense was much poorer with plays that either drove inside into a crowd or the high low pass to a big for which there was no room. Even Grayson made freshman mistakes turning the ball over a number of times. GT seemed energized and we had the same problem with getting beat to the ball
over and over.

Nice to see Bolden play well again, Grayson and Gary hit some shots. It will be interesting to see what takeaways coach K relates in his presser.

[Stray Gator]

I have cemented my view that home teams in the ACC, us withstanding, get major ref help during a narrative moment. I.e. today's run by GT. It was pretty obvious that they were getting away with lots of physically in the interior, and we were not. After 9 years of watching every Duke game, that is the conclusion I came to. I invite someone to challenge me.

Please stop whining about the officiating. I watched the same game, and the officiating appeared evenhanded to me. Tech got the benefit of some close calls and no-calls, but so did Duke. It's one thing to complain about the officiating when your team loses and there is a reasonable basis to support the claim that critical calls tilted more favorably towards the opponent (for example, in the national semi-final game against UConn in 2004). But when your team wins the game, grousing about the officiating is not just bad form; it undermines your credibility and reflects poorly on Duke fans generally.

[mgtr]

I will take the win. But why does it feel like a loss?

[Wander]

If we were playing at full strength and with our normal lineup, I would understand feeling a little down about the comeback. But with our best player out and with another important change in the lineup, I don't think we have anything to feel bad about in this one. You guys are nuts!

[UrinalCake]

I have cemented my view that home teams in the ACC, us withstanding, get major ref help during a narrative moment. I.e. today's run by GT. It was pretty obvious that they were getting away with lots of physically in the interior, and we were not. After 9 years of watching every Duke game, that is the conclusion I came to. I invite someone to challenge me.

I think there are bad calls throughout, you just notice them more when they come at key moments.

We got possession after the ball bounced off Carter's knee, at a time when they were making a serious run. GT fans have a justifiable beef with that call. (Of course, I thought Carter got fouled and the ref was trying to offset the two, but that's another matter.)

[dukelion]

So is Duval coming off the bench going forward?

I'd be ok with that if that ends up being the case. The +- stats with him in the game are really glaring. I think he was -11 tonight which is extremely troubling.

He'll still get plenty of minutes but putting the ball in Grayson's hands going forward just makes sense. Plus, having another good/great shooter (Alex is at >50% from 3) probably makes this offense a little better.

Also might light a fire under Duval going forward as well.

[duke4ever19]

Coach K said this was Duval's best game in two weeks, which was key because he was coming off the bench.

He seems pleased with the performance. I felt a bit conflicted about this game because of the comeback by Ga Tech, but a road win without Bagley, and getting Grayson going is good stuff.

[CDu]

Sloppy, sloppy second half kind of mars what was an awesome first 25 minutes. The team really spazzed out down the stretch.

That said, we wound up winning by almost what we were supposed to according to the computers. That shows how well we played early.

I think we let the foot off the gas bringing in some of the reserves early, and that bit us a bit. And then we kind of lost our composure down the stretch, including some really poor execution of offense in stallball.

Was nice to see Allen start off hot, although he cooled off a lot and wound up with a poor shooting day. And he had several bad turnovers late which kept the comeback going. Still, it was clear progress over the last few weeks. I hope it continues. We need him.

Was starting to worry about Duval. His play had really slipped. I like that Coach K tried to get him going in the second. We need to get him going. He gave a lot of effort out there. The offense wasn’t great, but he went after it on d and on the boards.

Carter was a rock in there. Nice for him to shine in his homecoming.

Bolden had a nice game too, although he missed several boxouts. Similar for DeLaurier. We gotta do better onthose.

[gofurman]

I think there are bad calls throughout, you just notice them more when they come at key moments.

**We got possession after the ball bounced off Carter's knee, at a time when they were making a serious run. ***. GT fans have a justifiable beef with that call. (Of course, I thought Carter got fouled and the ref was trying to offset the two, but that's another matter.)

This. It goes both ways - it was clearly off Carter and duke got the ball back

[kshepinthehouse]

So is Duval coming off the bench going forward?

I'd be ok with that if that ends up being the case. The +- stats with him in the game are really glaring. I think he was -11 tonight which is extremely troubling.

He'll still get plenty of minutes but putting the ball in Grayson's hands going forward just makes sense. Plus, having another good/great shooter (Alex is at >50% from 3) probably makes this offense a little better.

Also might light a fire under Duval going forward as well.

Where is the guy who has been posting Duval’s offensive efficiency. I’d be interested to see what it was for this game.

[proelitedota]

Please stop whining about the officiating. I watched the same game, and the officiating appeared evenhanded to me. Tech got the benefit of some close calls and no-calls, but so did Duke. It's one thing to complain about the officiating when your team loses and there is a reasonable basis to support the claim that critical calls tilted more favorably towards the opponent (for example, in the national semi-final game against UConn in 2004). But when your team wins the game, grousing about the officiating is not just bad form; it undermines your credibility and reflects poorly on Duke fans generally.

It's the conclusion that I came to after watching their run, and also watching lots of Duke games over the past few years. We had several possessions during the GT run where our interior players were grabbed or hit that was called earlier. Prime example where the Allen entry passes that sailed over Carter/Bolden. Allen didn't throw the ball over, Carter/Bolden were held.

I don't care about how my actions reflect on Duke fans, I am past that. If I think there was bad officiating during a bad sequence or the whole game, I tell it as it is.

[Devilwin]

This was a win, but it was like wanting a steak when you're hungry and winding up with a peanut butter sandwich. Total collapse again in the second half. It's a win, but not one to be overly proud of. Lots of stupid, unforced turnovers again..

[wavedukefan70s]

I'm not sure Duvall and Allen complement each other's games on the court.not knocking either ability or play.i did notice we play better with the post unclogged.

[Furniture]

This was a win, but it was like wanting a steak when you're hungry and winding up with a peanut butter sandwich. Total collapse again in the second half. It's a win, but not one to be overly proud of. Lots of stupid, unforced turnovers again..

Total collapse really?

[MrPoon]

First half was fun.
Second half...
At the 16 min mark in the second half Duke had a a 53-27 lead (allowing 1pt for the prior 4 mins).
From there Duke scored 27, Tech scored 42 (yep, GT scored 42 in 16 mins).
Duke took 59 shots and gave up 66, and GT had 2 more offensive rebounds.
This game had all the markers of a blowout, until Duke stopped playing smart or hard on either side. Keeping mind that GT lost their starting PG mid game.
We all love to dissect games, Duval this, Javin here, pick and roll D... the second half had nothing to do with those to me. It’s the difference of working hard and not taking it for granted. I didn’t see a strong performance from that 16 min mark by just about anyone.

ACC road wins are always welcome but bummer of a game. And I’m a half full guy for this team all year.

[WHOneedsSOX]

I'm not sure Duvall and Allen complement each other's games on the court.not knocking either ability or play.i did notice we play better with the post unclogged.

Could just be that the paint is completely clogged with Duval, Carter, and Bagley all in there.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

We were enjoying the performance by Dr. Jekyll and then he goes and invites his friend Mr. Hyde.
Are you referring to the DBR chat?

[CoachJ10]

Please stop whining about the officiating. I watched the same game, and the officiating appeared evenhanded to me. Tech got the benefit of some close calls and no-calls, but so did Duke. It's one thing to complain about the officiating when your team loses and there is a reasonable basis to support the claim that critical calls tilted more favorably towards the opponent (for example, in the national semi-final game against UConn in 2004). But when your team wins the game, grousing about the officiating is not just bad form; it undermines your credibility and reflects poorly on Duke fans generally.

Ignoring 3 of the 13 people on the court that can affect the outcome of the game is silly. Critiquing the refs is not doing anything untowardly. Of course, said critquing can be judged (as any opinion should / could be) and is fair game. So if you didnt think Carter was getting manhandled again..and others did, so be it. Be the condescension towards reasonable comments on reffing is misplaced.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Total collapse really?

yeah it was pretty much a total collapse. It happened too late to matter, and it wasn't quite total, but purt near......

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Where is the guy who has been posting Duval’s offensive efficiency. I’d be interested to see what it was for this game.

I think for this game you'd spell efficiency....with a d.......

[Furniture]

yeah it was pretty much a total collapse. It happened too late to matter, and it wasn't quite total, but purt near...

Pretty much total but not quite. Funny...

[CoachJ10]

By the way, that Cole guy was out of control out there. He is lucky he didnt hurt anyone.

[devilsince1977]

The comeback happened when we started WALKING the ball up. When we do that on every possession; the other team is comfortable sending extra men to the offensive glass.
and we give up a ton offensive rebounds. TECH had 16 tonight, most in the 2nd half. It also makes Duke play against a set defense and we stagnate on offense. I think it is in K's plans to get more repetitions in a slower paced game to prepare for post season games.But, man it is frustrating to watch.

For 28 minutes Duke played pretty darn good and TECH was terrible. We should not be letting poor teams back in games like that. But it sure beats losing.

[happydays1949]

Anyone know where I can find K's presser?

[Furniture]

9 points (50%) 5 rebounds w 1 assist and 1 turnover for Duval.

1 for 1 on 3 too.

Not too shabby.

[MrPoon]

It's the conclusion that I came to after watching their run, and also watching lots of Duke games over the past few years. We had several possessions during the GT run where our interior players were grabbed or hit that was called earlier. Prime example where the Allen entry passes that sailed over Carter/Bolden. Allen didn't throw the ball over, Carter/Bolden were held.

I don't care about how my actions reflect on Duke fans, I am past that. If I think there was bad officiating during a bad sequence or the whole game, I tell it as it is.

Perhaps the officiating was a problem (I didn’t love it either). Perhaps, but why keep making the same plays and expecting different results? Whoever was playing the 5 was getting held on the lob entry pass, maybe, but why keep making the pass over and over if the refs are not going to make the call? That is on you at some point yes? The refs also gave Duke an extra possession when the ball went off Carter. It happens. Play on. This team is way too good to allow 42 in the final 16 mins even if a ref joined the GT team. The refs maybe helped but 42!?! Playing the bench for the final 16 shouldn’t have yielded that many points/poor possessions/turnovers.

[Troublemaker]

Anyone know where I can find K's presser?

Haven't watched it yet, but this link should work: https://www.pscp.tv/dukebasketball/1OwxWElPPbVGQ

[proelitedota]

Perhaps the officiating was a problem (I didn’t love it either). Perhaps, but why keep making the same plays and expecting different results? Whoever was playing the 5 was getting held on the lob entry pass, maybe, but why keep making the pass over and over if the refs are not going to make the call? That is on you at some point yes? The refs also gave Duke an extra possession when the ball went off Carter. It happens. Play on. This team is way too good to allow 42 in the final 16 mins even if a ref joined the GT team. The refs maybe helped but 42!?! Playing the bench for the final 16 shouldn’t have yielded that many points/poor possessions/turnovers.

Part of what makes senior / junior teams more immune to this moment is that they know how to adjust due to experience. They have muscle memory that the freshmen do not. It might be even more detrimental to ask the freshmen to drop a style of play that was so effective for 30 min.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Pretty much total but not quite. Funny...

in the English language....pretty much is informal for not quite. That's what it means. In the same language, absolutely or undeniably or without a doubt would have been informal for fully or totally. Seriously, that's what these words mean.

[SkyBrickey]

I was at the game. We had a few bad plays in the second half and the crowd really got into it. GT players were feeding off the crowd in a big way and we kind of wilted.

Still a good win without Bagley.

Javin looked good. He had a lot of great hustle plays. You really get a better idea of how disruptive he can be on defense in person with his crazy combination of speed, length and athleticism.

[Stray Gator]

Ignoring 3 of the 13 people on the court that can affect the outcome of the game is silly. Critiquing the refs is not doing anything untowardly. Of course, said critquing can be judged (as any opinion should / could be) and is fair game. So if you didnt think Carter was getting manhandled again..and others did, so be it. Be the condescension towards reasonable comments on reffing is misplaced.

Like I said, as I saw the game, there were calls and no-calls that went both ways. I never suggested that there aren't some aspects of the officiating that can be critiqued; indeed, I believe that's true about every game in which the officiating is being done by humans, who will be imperfect even at their best. But if you think it's "reasonable" to complain that the officiating is unfairly slanted against Duke in every away game, then I beg to differ. As I also indicated, I believe there are occasions when such protests are warranted; but I'd prefer to see us save the complaints for those occasions, rather than dilute our credibility by trotting out the objections after every game, including the games we win.

[CDu]

Like I said, as I saw the game, there were calls and no-calls that went both ways. I never suggested that there aren't some aspects of the officiating that can be critiqued; indeed, I believe that's true about every game in which the officiating is being done by humans, who will be imperfect even at their best. But if you think it's "reasonable" to complain that the officiating is unfairly slanted against Duke in every away game, then I beg to differ. As I also indicated, I believe there are occasions when such protests are warranted; but I'd prefer to see us save the complaints for those occasions, rather than dilute our credibility by trotting out the objections after every game, including the games we win.

I agree. People here railed against the “Duke gets all the calls” media slant for years (rightly so). Complaining about the officiating incessantly is doing the same thing that folks hated about ESPN all those years.

[fan345678]

Coach K said this was Duval's best game in two weeks, which was key because he was coming off the bench.

Duval's effort for loose balls and rebounds late in the game was evident.

[CDu]

Duval's effort for loose balls and rebounds late in the game was evident.

Yeah, he was really getting after it on defense. And while he wasn’t overly effective on offense, he really limited the mistakes. He clearly got the message.

[heyman25]

Glad to get a win. However Duke is getting killed on the defensive boards, No one seems to know how to block out. Like the UNC game we were getting beat to any 50/50 ball. When Georgia Tech shoots look to where the ball is going. Game IQ has to kick in. Frustrated this team can't play a solid 40.

[robed deity]

Yeah, he was really getting after it on defense. And while he wasn’t overly effective on offense, he really limited the mistakes. He clearly got the message.

Although, as K said, that shot he hit up 12 felt big. And Allen made the right pass there, although I must say I wasn't in love with it in real time.

[sagegrouse]

Good game. It would have been great to win by 40, but I am happy.

Anyone else notice that K had alerted both Setsh G and Corey Alexander of his new approach: "Grayson is our only player who has a clue, and he has to be at the center of our offense." Hence the lineup change.

[fan345678]

Although, as K said, that shot he hit up 12 felt big. And Allen made the right pass there, although I must say I wasn't in love with it in real time.

Same, but that's a leadership/trust/confidence pass by the senior to the freshman. Glad it worked out well...although soon thereafter, driving and throwing up an acrobatic layup that led to a break the other way might have been too much confidence/too little trust reciprocated by the freshman. Both are teaching points.

[Skydog]

For those asking Duval's OE was 106 this game. Better than in recent previous games. Plus he didn't burn through possessions. Rest of the team: Allen's OE was 120, Carter 118, Trent 122, Bolden 111, AOC 100 and DeLaurier 130. Allen, Carter and Trent all used from 23-28% of our possession when they were on the court. Rest of the team used from 9% (DeLaurier) to 17% (Duval) of the available possessions.

[Skydog]

Allen started out great. Confident, looking for his shots, great first half. Then in the last 10 mins he just refused to let the ball fly, even letting the clock expire with the ball in his hands. I saw Coach K mouth to him "shoot the ball" after that play. I think playing every minute wears on him a bit. Would love to see him come out for a couple minutes each half, just to clear his head and take the pressure off.

[jv001]

If we were playing at full strength and with our normal lineup, I would understand feeling a little down about the comeback. But with our best player out and with another important change in the lineup, I don't think we have anything to feel bad about in this one. You guys are nuts!

Must spread sporks. Some people can't take away anything good from a game, even when we win. GoDuke!

[lotusland]

K also mentioned how Okogie got his team fired up in the 2nd half and everyone running the court. I agree and it seemed like they were running down hill and Duke was running up hill in the mud. A couple times the ball handler passed 3-4 Dukies on the way to hole. Then when we missed another GT Player would fly by for and unbothered stick back. Just seemed like Duke lost energy and focus.

Speaking of energy, K also mentioned that Bolden ideally should play only 15 minutes really hard at this point. That’s about all he can handle effectively. With Bagley out Bolden played 25 minutes and K thought he was playing tired in the 2nd half. Also said they tried to limit Bolden switching on ball screens to conserve his energy.

[weezie]

Allen started out great. Confident, looking for his shots, great first half. Then in the last 10 mins he just refused to let the ball fly, even letting the clock expire with the ball in his hands. I saw Coach K mouth to him "shoot the ball" after that play. I think playing every minute wears on him a bit. Would love to see him come out for a couple minutes each half, just to clear his head and take the pressure off.

But that's K's call to make. I agree with you, it can be hard watching him go all out for the entire game. He's never going to call his own number for substitution. I wonder who the last player was who had K's complete trust like that? as in "No, I'm not coming out"
It was a good moment tonight, even with the comeback on tech's part. Hope it shook off some mental bugaboos from this team's mentality.

[Neals384]

I think we let the foot off the gas bringing in some of the reserves early, and that bit us a bit.


I have to believe their comeback was directly attributable to our substitutions. We let off the gas.

if you guys mean Goldwire, Duke had a 25 pt lead when he came in, and the same 25 point lead when he left 3 1/2 minutes later. The collapse was by the top 7 rotation.


Allen started out great. Confident, looking for his shots, great first half. Then in the last 10 mins he just refused to let the ball fly, even letting the clock expire with the ball in his hands. I saw Coach K mouth to him "shoot the ball" after that play. I think playing every minute wears on him a bit. Would love to see him come out for a couple minutes each half, just to clear his head and take the pressure off.

This

[jv001]

By the way, that Cole guy was out of control out there. He is lucky he didnt hurt anyone.

The Ga. Tech fans probably think the same of Javin. Fans see the game through different colored lenses. I thought Cole played very hard and never gave up on a play. GoDuke!

[rsvman]

Tough freakin' crowd!

We go on the road, without arguably our most talented player, and get an 11-point win, and there is still a ton of whining.

I made the argument in the in-game thread that, in essence, people are doing something that is completely irrational: that is, punishing the team for playing exceptionally well. Had they played a more mediocre first half and second half, and maintained an 8-10 point lead throughout the whole game, they would be spared a lot of this hand-wringing. So, they're WORSE because they played BETTER?

What it they had played poorly in the first half and were down 4 at halftime, but then came back to have the same margin of victory. Then, people on the board would praise them MORE. Because they played WORSE. Do you see what I'm trying to say? So, they're BETTER if they play WORSE, and they're WORSE if they play BETTER. Got it.


We played really well, got a big lead. Then the home team made a push. That's almost always going to happen. Then we weathered it, and ended up with a double-digit win on the road without Bagley. I'd say that's pretty darned good, and I've decided to be happy with it.

[dukelifer]

Just had a chance to watch the whole game. Duke looked pretty good for the first 30 minutes and then had some trouble feeding the post and made enough bad plays to let Tech make a big run. But there was a lot of good in the game. Need to keep those runs limited and get to the line. A win on the road is always good. Time to regroup and get ready for Va Tech.

[simplyluvin]

Grayson looked more like himself. Not yet the GA we saw against MSU, but it was good to see his shots go down. Also saw Wendell play like the alpha dog he might have been if Marvin hadn't declared early.

Overall solid defensively. Okogie got hot. The big concern here, however, is something someone brought up in the last post-game thread...we don't have that killer instinct, and that's why we don't put teams away, or when we're close (e.g., BC, UVA), we can't close the gap. Hoping that can still be Marvin or Grayson consistently, but have yet to see that.

[jv001]

From my eye test, it looked like we ran our offensive sets to precision for around 30 minutes. Then we started to slow the game down and tried to force the ball down low. Sometimes from our guards to the bigs and sometimes from a big to a big. We also began to milk the shot clock and was forced to make some heavily guarded shots and passes. Fortunately the game clock was in our favor and Grayson, Carter and Gary hit the FTs. There is way more good to take away from this game than bad. We played without our best all-around player, Grayson got back to being aggressive, our offense clicked for the majority of the game, our defense was good for a good portion of the game, our bench got some minutes with Bolden and Duval playing well. Oh, yes, Mr. Duval, I don't care what the +/- says, he played better tonight. Especially on defense and his offense was ok with 9 points, a big 3 pointer, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 turnover on 4-8 shooting. Seth Greenburg said he thought Duke was better with Grayson starting at the point and Trevon coming off the bench to play the point. I guess he thinks Grayson would move to SG when that happens. I'm sure Coach K knows more about all that than Seth. Good game now let's take care of business against VT. GoDuke!

[ncexnyc]

If we were playing at full strength and with our normal lineup, I would understand feeling a little down about the comeback. But with our best player out and with another important change in the lineup, I don't think we have anything to feel bad about in this one. You guys are nuts!

I'm not sure why you believe some people on the forum are nuts. This was a Tech team that was 11-13 overall coming into the game with a 4-7 ACC record.

I get it that MBIII was absent, but Carter was billed as "THE MAN" before Marvin decided to join us and as the TV commentators have said numerous times during the year, "We'd be hearing how great Carter was if MBIII wasn't here". As to the other change in the line-up, I'm pretty sure quite a few forum members think it was a move for the best.

I can't speak for anyone else, but what annoyed me was we had another game where we seemed to loose focus. That's something we should be getting better at as the season progresses and those lapses can't happen against quality teams.

[TNTDevil]

Tough freakin' crowd!

We go on the road, without arguably our most talented player, and get an 11-point win, and there is still a ton of whining.

I made the argument in the in-game thread that, in essence, people are doing something that is completely irrational: that is, punishing the team for playing exceptionally well. Had they played a more mediocre first half and second half, and maintained an 8-10 point lead throughout the whole game, they would be spared a lot of this hand-wringing. So, they're WORSE because they played BETTER?

What it they had played poorly in the first half and were down 4 at halftime, but then came back to have the same margin of victory. Then, people on the board would praise them MORE. Because they played WORSE. Do you see what I'm trying to say? So, they're BETTER if they play WORSE, and they're WORSE if they play BETTER. Got it.

We played really well, got a big lead. Then the home team made a push. That's almost always going to happen. Then we weathered it, and ended up with a double-digit win on the road without Bagley. I'd say that's pretty darned good, and I've decided to be happy with it.Yep. This post right here. Close the thread. Drop the mike (as the kids say).

I'm so old I can remember the days when any ACC team could beat any other team regardless of the record book. Any road win in ACC is a good win without regard to how it looked. GT players have pride, Okogie got hot and they started to believe and they made a run just as one would expect. I thought we closed the game-out pretty well.

I'm thrilled that Bolden and DeLaurier got some quality minutes. And you gotta love DeLaurier's fight, he was on the floor what...three times?

Oh, and my lava-hot take on Duval (not that y'all care) is that he's fearless. And, as experience teaches -- that's not good. But, I love the kid. I hate that he'll only accept one year of the GOAT's help with his game.

[ndkjr70]

Duval is interesting to me. There’s no doubt that he’s loaded with talent but he’s still a child and his game is very, very young. I can’t see him being drafted at ALL right now, if you ask me. He also doesn’t really have a place on next year’s team, unless he wants to come off the bench and spell Stones Jr. Hope he isn’t another transfer, but I really don’t see many options here.

[jv001]

Duval is interesting to me. There’s no doubt that he’s loaded with talent but he’s still a child and his game is very, very young. I can’t see him being drafted at ALL right now, if you ask me. He also doesn’t really have a place on next year’s team, unless he wants to come off the bench and spell Stones Jr. Hope he isn’t another transfer, but I really don’t see many options here.

I think Duval is very important to this Duke teams chances of reaching the FF. But this present day, Trevon is not there yet. Will he get there? I don't know but I think tonight's game may indicate Coach K is going to do everything in his power to see he makes that improvement. It was evident that for the better part of the game the offense ran more smoothly with Grayson at the point. However we would be better with Trevon setting up the other guys and let Grayson hunt his shot. But we still have the problem with the middle of the lane clogged up. What happens with that problem. Man, Coach K has his work cut out for him. GoDuke!

[uh_no]

Then the home team made a push. That's almost always going to happen.

This is way too much of an understatement to let slide. we were up 26, and the lead got cut to 10 in something like 10 minutes.

We got outscored by 16 in 10 minutes. For a team that's coming off 3 losses in 4 games, and has a major problem with consistency, this is not something that can be dismissed as "well we won!"

Remember when everyone was anointing this team after the early season comeback come-back wins and pointed to how it indicated we were invincible? Winning in the regular season isn't everything. How you win is more important from a forward looking perspective.

This team did not play well for a long stretch today. A team as talented as duke SHOULD be able to crush a bad ACC team like GT. They shouldn't get outscored by 16 points in a 10 minute stretch.

Again, that stretch doesn't dismiss the good play for 30 minutes, but it means the inconsistency problems are still a major problem...and as we've seen, that inconsistency against a much better team equals a loss much of the time.

The big take aways from tonight are

1) Bolden is shaking the rust off
2) the lineup put grayson in a position to be more aggresive
3) K is at a point to use playing time as a carrot for duval.

wednesday's game will be much more interesting.

[gofurman]

K also mentioned how Okogie got his team fired up in the 2nd half and everyone running the court. I agree and it seemed like they were running down hill and Duke was running up hill in the mud. A couple times the ball handler passed 3-4 Dukies on the way to hole. Then when we missed another GT Player would fly by for and unbothered stick back. Just seemed like Duke lost energy and focus.

Speaking of energy, K also mentioned that Bolden ideally should play only 15 minutes really hard at this point. That’s about all he can handle effectvely. With Bagley out Bolden played 25 minutes and K thought he was playing tired in the 2nd half. Also said they tried to limit Bolden switching on ball screens to conserve his energy.

Still injured? Or just a fatigue thing?

[Furniture]

I think Duval is very important to this Duke teams chances of reaching the FF. But this present day, Trevon is not there yet. Will he get there? I don't know but I think tonight's game may indicate Coach K is going to do everything in his power to see he makes that improvement. It was evident that for the better part of the game the offense ran more smoothly with Grayson at the point. However we would be better with Trevon setting up the other guys and let Grayson hunt his shot. But we still have the problem with the middle of the lane clogged up. What happens with that problem. Man, Coach K has his work cut out for him. GoDuke!

I think this is the key point. How does K get opportunities for Grayson when Duval is running point AND Bagley is on the court. Grayson ran point last year. How did that turn out?

[Furniture]

Still injured? Or just a fatigue thing?

Its just plain game fitness. K said he has been out for 5 weeks.

[ipatent]

Still injured? Or just a fatigue thing?

Coach K said it was conditioning.

[johnb]

I think Duval is very important to this Duke teams chances of reaching the FF. But this present day, Trevon is not there yet. Will he get there? I don't know but I think tonight's game may indicate Coach K is going to do everything in his power to see he makes that improvement. It was evident that for the better part of the game the offense ran more smoothly with Grayson at the point. However we would be better with Trevon setting up the other guys and let Grayson hunt his shot. But we still have the problem with the middle of the lane clogged up. What happens with that problem. Man, Coach K has his work cut out for him. GoDuke!

We were way more talented than Tech, and then they lost their point guard. Even with Bagley taking the game off, it should've been a blow out.

My concerns are that Duval can dribble into traffic, but he is a below average distributor. This is a big deal and makes me wonder how anyone thinks he is ready for the NBA (especially if he becomes O'Connell's back up). More immediately, how are we an elite team with a below average distributor?

As importantly, neither he nor Trent seem capable of consistently stepping into an opposing player's shots. Multiple times, an opposing player had the ball between 10 and 20 feet from the basket, and one of these two terrific athletes backed off, and the Tech player scored. I know it's a fast paced game, etc, but they struck me as hard nosed athletes who are playing soft or playing inattentive or maybe just playing as people who have never before been asked to defend ACC-level opponents.

It's fine to say that Duke fans get spoiled, but I agree with the poster who said it was a disappointing win.

[Wander]

I'm not sure why you believe some people on the forum are nuts. This was a Tech team that was 11-13 overall coming into the game with a 4-7 ACC record.

But we covered the spread. I'd understand the frustration if we won by a couple of points.

[Ewe]

It's the conclusion that I came to after watching their run, and also watching lots of Duke games over the past few years. We had several possessions during the GT run where our interior players were grabbed or hit that was called earlier. Prime example where the Allen entry passes that sailed over Carter/Bolden. Allen didn't throw the ball over, Carter/Bolden were held.

I don't care about how my actions reflect on Duke fans, I am past that. If I think there was bad officiating during a bad sequence or the whole game, I tell it as it is.

You do not tell it as it is. You think you do, but you don't. You state your opinion, nothing more. IMO, it's whining. Which doesn't reflect badly on me. Or any other Duke fan. You speak for yourself.

[Freethrw33]

I watch nearly every Duke game, but I missed this one.
Thus, my comment relates to this DBR thread as compared to the stats.

From the thread, I thought GT came must have come back and Duke made a very late run to win by 11.
From looking at the ESPN Game Flow, I instead saw that Georgia Tech never got closer than 10 pts!

Much as the "stall ball" approach may create stress, be frustrating to watch, or shrink the overall margin of victory, I can't think of a game in which we started stall ball too early, didn't execute it, and ended up actually losing. While I'm sure I'm forgetting a game some point, for the stall ball, I'm used to it now...see it many times per season, every season...

Contrast that to UNC panicking in the last minute of our game and very nearly giving Duke a shot to get back in it..

[lotusland]

I watch nearly every Duke game, but I missed this one.
Thus, my comment relates to this DBR thread as compared to the stats.

From the thread, I thought GT came must have come back and Duke made a very late run to win by 11.
From looking at the ESPN Game Flow, I instead saw that Georgia Tech never got closer than 10 pts!

Much as the "stall ball" approach may create stress, be frustrating to watch, or shrink the overall margin of victory, I can't think of a game in which we started stall ball too early, didn't execute it, and ended up actually losing. While I'm sure I'm forgetting a game some point, for the stall ball, I'm used to it now...see it many times per season, every season...

Contrast that to UNC panicking in the last minute of our game and very nearly giving Duke a shot to get back in it..

It was a comfortable ACC Road win so we’ll take it. The bummer wasn’t just stall ball though and it also wasn’t just the home team gettin hot and going on a run. Starting 6 minutes or so into the second half through the end, Duke played badly on both ends. They made free throws which kept GT at bay but otherwise it was fugly.

[Troublemaker]

After losing 3 of 4 games, it's nice to be able to debate whether we should be happy with a win. More on this later.

Unfortunately, we didn't get to learn much from this win. As far as I can tell, Coach K played zone because we were playing two centers together and because Bolden's conditioning isn't up to par yet after returning from a knee injury, so Coach wanted Marques to rest in a zone in order to play the 25 minutes that he played. But, that means if Marvin is back for Wednesday's game against VaTech, Duke is probably returning to m2m defense. So this game tells us nothing about how we'll fare going forward, imo. Additionally, we didn't get much of a look at a 4-out or smallball lineup, so we learned nothing new from that aspect as well. From a knowledge gained standpoint, pretty disappointing.

I guess the big news is that Trevon is coming off the bench. First, we have to see if it will continue into the next game; it may be just a one-game rotation change that is related to Bagley being out somehow. But I suspect Trevon will continue coming off the bench. And, if so, I like it. He gets to sit on the bench at the beginning of each half, with a coach in his ear advising him on how the opponent is reacting to Duke's gameplan on both ends. THEN, he gets to go into game. It's a much better situation than, for example, against UNC when he was subbed out 2.5 minutes into the 1st half and 3.5 minutes into the 2nd half. And if he's struggling, we can dial back his minutes accordingly and boost Alex's. Would love to see some Goldwire, too, without a big lead, but not waiting with bated breath there.

So, am I happy with this win? It seems like a lot of people believe that "not playing 40 minutes" is a cause rather than a symptom of our problems. (To be fair, that is sort of the company line that you can hear from the players and sometimes the coaches as well.) And if that is your belief -- that "not playing 40 minutes" is the cause rather than a symptom of Duke's issues -- then this was a bad game. And you'll be unhappy with it because we were up big and then gave a lot of it away. So, therefore, the team hasn't learned its lesson yet, from that point of view.

I, however, am happy with a road win in which we were up 53-27 (I think) at one point. My take is that until Duke figures out a defensive system that maximizes the size, length, and athleticism on the roster, and that we can defensive rebound better out of (in accordance with our size, length, and athleticism), opposing teams are going to make big runs at us. That's what I believe. All the sports cliches -- "effort", "heart", "caring", "not playing 40 minutes" -- are just symptoms (or more precisely, misattributions by observers) until we have that defensive system in place.

[porkpa]

The major criticisms of this Duke team seem to relate to improvable issues such as defense and foul shooting.
From this old guy's viewpoint, my major critique is focused on our frequent inability to finish plays at the basket.
It seems to me, that in each of the last half dozen or more games we've messed up several gimme baskets at the hoop for which there were no reasons for the ball not dropping through.

[Devilwin]

When I said total collapse, I meant we were rolling, then hit the inevitable wall again. Happens every game. Getting out scored by this team by 16 in ten minutes is far from good. Of course we will take the win, and there were a few positives, (Bolden and Allen's play), but still we cannot afford to keep allowing lesser teams back into games like this. I think Tech actually cut it to nine at one point. Of our five losses, only two were to quality teams. (UVA and UNC) And, in both of those games we had a lapse which hurt us. The only thing keeping us from being 25-0 is one tiny word - focus. We are talented enough to win it all, that's a given. But for that eventuality to occur, we can't play like this against quality teams, and these days the NCAA Tourney is full of teams without names like Kentucky and Kansas that can send you packing, as we've seen before. We did make a good percentage of our free throws, that is a positive. I was surprised we had only 11 tos. Seemed like more to me. I guess some of these were so bad, it made it seem like more. When I say that, I mean just wildly throwing the ball out of bounds or right to an opposing player.
Granted, Tech hit some tough shots, but we were not responding, and gave them confidence.
To sum it up as I see it, EVERY team has games where they lose focus, and let teams back into games, that's true. But we do it every game, and more than anything else, it's about that five letter word again, focus...
I also think Grayson needs to shoot when he sees an opening. He passed on an easy three attempt to pass to Trevon, who hit the shot, thank God, but he is not the three point threat Grayson is.
We have some tough games coming up. They have to stay focused, and if we get a big lead, keep your foot on the throat and finish it..:)

[Saratoga2]

This is way too much of an understatement to let slide. we were up 26, and the lead got cut to 10 in something like 10 minutes.

We got outscored by 16 in 10 minutes. For a team that's coming off 3 losses in 4 games, and has a major problem with consistency, this is not something that can be dismissed as "well we won!"

Remember when everyone was anointing this team after the early season comeback come-back wins and pointed to how it indicated we were invincible? Winning in the regular season isn't everything. How you win is more important from a forward looking perspective.

This team did not play well for a long stretch today. A team as talented as duke SHOULD be able to crush a bad ACC team like GT. They shouldn't get outscored by 16 points in a 10 minute stretch.

Again, that stretch doesn't dismiss the good play for 30 minutes, but it means the inconsistency problems are still a major problem...and as we've seen, that inconsistency against a much better team equals a loss much of the time.

The big take aways from tonight are

1) Bolden is shaking the rust off
2) the lineup put grayson in a position to be more aggresive
3) K is at a point to use playing time as a carrot for duval.

wednesday's game will be much more interesting.

I agree with what you say and it is a legitimate point of discussion to try to understand why we went so well for 25 minutes and so poorly for a long stretch in the second half.

Is it personnel combinations that caused the problem?
Were we tired?
Were we in foul trouble?
Why did Grayson, who played so well in the first half, suddenly have trouble scoring and with ball security in the second half?
Why did we get out hustled in the second half?
Did the opponent suddenly improve or alter their game plan?

For the folks who wish to put their heads in the sand and say we won so that is what matters should remember we will play better teams in the next period and the team had better understand what works best for us and why we can have such periods of poor play.

[Devilwin]

I agree with what you say and it is a legitimate point of discussion to try to understand why we went so well for 25 minutes and so poorly for a long stretch in the second half.

Is it personnel combinations that caused the problem?
Were we tired?
Were we in foul trouble?
Why did Grayson, who played so well in the first half, suddenly have trouble scoring and with ball security in the second half?
Why did we get out hustled in the second half?
Did the opponent suddenly improve or alter their game plan?

For the folks who wish to put their heads in the sand and say we won so that is what matters should remember we will play better teams in the next period and the team had better understand what works best for us and why we can have such periods of poor play.

We also lost the ball on a couple of poor entry passes to Marques, and there were a couple of monster jam put backs while our two bigs were just standing there watching. Got to protect the rim, big fellas.

[dukelifer]

Duval is interesting to me. There’s no doubt that he’s loaded with talent but he’s still a child and his game is very, very young. I can’t see him being drafted at ALL right now, if you ask me. He also doesn’t really have a place on next year’s team, unless he wants to come off the bench and spell Stones Jr. Hope he isn’t another transfer, but I really don’t see many options here.

To expect Stones Jr to jump in and be his brother at the end of the season is asking a lot. He too may struggle to figure it out his first time through. If for some reason Duval comes back- he will be MUCH better at running the team and will be highly motivated. I am not sure he will be back and whether he gets drafted is up to the NBA evaluators who may value his athleticism. His limited shooting skills at this point is worrisome but maybe fixable. All we know is he is not a lottery pick and may not even crack the first round- but he may decide to work on his game outside of college.

[kmspeaks]

The Ga. Tech fans probably think the same of Javin. Fans see the game through different colored lenses. I thought Cole played very hard and never gave up on a play. GoDuke!

I would agree with them on Javin. Both he and Cole played a little out of control. It's hustle, they're not trying to hurt anyone but I was still afraid it was going to happen.


From my eye test, it looked like we ran our offensive sets to precision for around 30 minutes. Then we started to slow the game down and tried to force the ball down low. Sometimes from our guards to the bigs and sometimes from a big to a big. We also began to milk the shot clock and was forced to make some heavily guarded shots and passes. Fortunately the game clock was in our favor and Grayson, Carter and Gary hit the FTs. There is way more good to take away from this game than bad. We played without our best all-around player, Grayson got back to being aggressive, our offense clicked for the majority of the game, our defense was good for a good portion of the game, our bench got some minutes with Bolden and Duval playing well. Oh, yes, Mr. Duval, I don't care what the +/- says, he played better tonight. Especially on defense and his offense was ok with 9 points, a big 3 pointer, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 turnover on 4-8 shooting. Seth Greenburg said he thought Duke was better with Grayson starting at the point and Trevon coming off the bench to play the point. I guess he thinks Grayson would move to SG when that happens. I'm sure Coach K knows more about all that than Seth. Good game now let's take care of business against VT. GoDuke!


I watch nearly every Duke game, but I missed this one.
Thus, my comment relates to this DBR thread as compared to the stats.

From the thread, I thought GT came must have come back and Duke made a very late run to win by 11.
From looking at the ESPN Game Flow, I instead saw that Georgia Tech never got closer than 10 pts!

Much as the "stall ball" approach may create stress, be frustrating to watch, or shrink the overall margin of victory, I can't think of a game in which we started stall ball too early, didn't execute it, and ended up actually losing. While I'm sure I'm forgetting a game some point, for the stall ball, I'm used to it now...see it many times per season, every season...

Contrast that to UNC panicking in the last minute of our game and very nearly giving Duke a shot to get back in it..

Ahh the stall ball complaints. With our big 2nd half deficits we haven't really had a chance for this classic DBR argument this season. I'm in the it's not always pretty but it works camp. Were there some things we could have done better? Sure, but in defense of the 18 year olds even I was starting to check Twitter and text a friend when we were up 20 something. Then I hear the crowd and announcers get excited about a big GT run but when I looked up we were still up 15 so I'm not going to complain.

[Henderson]

But we covered the spread. I'd understand the frustration if we won by a couple of points.

Barely. And that small point spread against Georgia Tech reflected a wide-spread public skepticism about Duke's ability to perform. By barely covering, that skepticism was confirmed.

This is not a dominant team. Which is disappointing and had me thinking more and more about the OAD trade off of potential/talent and experience/talent.

[Dukebasketball2020]

I like this Lineup going forward Allen, Trent, Oconnel, Bagley, and Carter to start the reason being is Oconnel is a 3 point threat and better shooter and Duval also Oconnel seems to crash to boards and good rebounder where duval doesn't really crash or rebound good. I don't think Duval needs to be benched but Allen shouldn't be playing 40 minutes a night I think 20-25 minutes for duval is perfect giving oconnel trent and allen a break off the bench. Duval just needs to be smarter with the ball and slow down and make better decisions like when he attacks the basket be aggresive and go up don't try to pass when you are already in the lane. Also I believe Oconnel is a better FT shooter than duval. Bolden playing well is going to be huge down the stretch because carter and bagley will both need a break going forward.

[sagegrouse]

When I said total collapse, I meant we were rolling, then hit the inevitable wall again. Happens every game. Getting out scored by this team by 16 in ten minutes is far from good..... Of course we will take the win, ... but still we cannot afford to keep allowing lesser teams back into games like this. I think Tech actually cut it to nine at one point.

Yawn. Duke had wrapped up the game and GT went on an impressive run, fueled, I would guess, by Alvarado's gruesome injury. (We've seen that before after Kevin Ware's injury.) We were a bit lackadaisical and also missed some easy shots. The Duke lead went from 63-38 at 10:53 to 65-53 at 7:01. After that, we played Tech even, and milked the shot clock below 5:00 rather than looking for chances to expand the lead.

Like you and others, I thought we were gonna win by 40, but it didn't happen. But "inevitable wall. Happens every game." Not at all. In my view, a road win by double digits is a good result.

[OldPhiKap]

Best I can tell, we won about 30 minutes of the game and the home conference foe won about 10 minutes. You could slice those thinner or thicker, but that's about the size of it.

Would I love to crush for all 40 minutes? Obviously. Am I in the doldrums because we didn't? Not in the slightest.

We are obviously not playing at championship caliber right now. But we don't need to be the best team in the country in February. While we have some problems to fix, we have the best coach in the nation and a bunch of freshmen who are still on a steep learning curve.

Long/short: I'm not terribly comfortable with where we are, but I am far from panicked about it. This is not an upperclass-laden team where you know what you are going to get night in and night out. Every day is an adventure. We'll know what we have when we get there, and not before.

[dukelifer]

Best I can tell, we won about 30 minutes of the game and the home conference foe won about 10 minutes. You could slice those thinner or thicker, but that's about the size of it.

Would I love to crush for all 40 minutes? Obviously. Am I in the doldrums because we didn't? Not in the slightest.

We are obviously not playing at championship caliber right now. But we don't need to be the best team in the country in February. While we have some problems to fix, we have the best coach in the nation and a bunch of freshmen who are still on a steep learning curve.

Long/short: I'm not terribly comfortable with where we are, but I am far from panicked about it. This is not an upperclass-laden team where you know what you are going to get night in and night out. Every day is an adventure. We'll know what we have when we get there, and not before.
Duke is also a bit more limited without Bagley in the lineup. K is tweaking. Bigger test coming up

[godins]

To expect Stones Jr to jump in and be his brother at the end of the season is asking a lot. He too may struggle to figure it out his first time through. If for some reason Duval comes back- he will be MUCH better at running the team and will be highly motivated. I am not sure he will be back and whether he gets drafted is up to the NBA evaluators who may value his athleticism. His limited shooting skills at this point is worrisome but maybe fixable. All we know is he is not a lottery pick and may not even crack the first round- but he may decide to work on his game outside of college.

People on the "Tre Jones is Tyus Jones 2.0" bandwagon need to jump off now (not you, Dukelifer, but the post you quoted). Tre isn't Tyus, and he's not going to be his Tyus. He doesn't project to be a plus 3-point shooter (in college) and this misplaced idea of a "clutch gene" doesn't guarantee he'll be hitting game winners in the Final Four a year from now. Can we let Tre Jones write his own story at Duke? And can we let Trevon grow and develop a little bit at Duke before writing him off as a miscast backup PG? (Apparently not on both accounts.)

As for Trevon, he projects to do just fine in the NBA. I'd put the likelihood of him being at Duke next year at <1%, and not because he's transferring. Look, the talent evaluators are saying the same thing for Duval: late first round. The Athletic (23rd to the Wizards), NBADraft.net (24th to the Hawks), BleacherReport (30th to the Warriors), ESPN (22nd to the Suns). They watch the same basketball games we do -- they see Trevon struggle with turnovers and distribution, defense and shooting. And yet, he's only slipped 5-10 spots over the course of the year. I have a feeling he'll grade out really well on draft boards with his handle and elite athleticism and get a first round grade.

ETA: In fact, I'm willing to bet a pie on Duke having three players selected in the first round of this year's NBA draft. (hedging a bit in case of injury)

[DukieInBrasil]

My concerns are that Duval can dribble into traffic, but he is a below average distributor. This is a big deal and makes me wonder how anyone thinks he is ready for the NBA (especially if he becomes O'Connell's back up). More immediately, how are we an elite team with a below average distributor?

That's a bit harsh i think, but it does seem like Trevon's grip on 1st round draft pick status slips a little more with each game. He has the physique to get there, but his shooting is a big question mark and his decision making/confidence withe ball in a half court setting seems pretty shaky. How you can come up withe idea that he is a below average distributor while he leads the ACC in assists is a bit baffling. I would love to see him improve his decision-making and distribution skills, but then he would be elite, rather than just very good.


It was a comfortable ACC Road win so we’ll take it. The bummer wasn’t just stall ball though and it also wasn’t just the home team gettin hot and going on a run. Starting 6 minutes or so into the second half through the end, Duke played badly on both ends. They made free throws which kept GT at bay but otherwise it was fugly.

fugly just about sums up the last 1/4 of the game.


Unfortunately, we didn't get to learn much from this win.... From a knowledge gained standpoint, pretty disappointing.

I guess the big news is that Trevon is coming off the bench. First, we have to see if it will continue into the next game; it may be just a one-game rotation change that is related to Bagley being out somehow. But I suspect Trevon will continue coming off the bench. And, if so, I like it. He gets to sit on the bench at the beginning of each half, with a coach in his ear advising him on how the opponent is reacting to Duke's gameplan on both ends. THEN, he gets to go into game. It's a much better situation than, for example, against UNC when he was subbed out 2.5 minutes into the 1st half and 3.5 minutes into the 2nd half. And if he's struggling, we can dial back his minutes accordingly and boost Alex's.

So, am I happy with this win? It seems like a lot of people believe that "not playing 40 minutes" is a cause rather than a symptom of our problems. (To be fair, that is sort of the company line that you can hear from the players and sometimes the coaches as well.) And if that is your belief -- that "not playing 40 minutes" is the cause rather than a symptom of Duke's issues -- then this was a bad game. And you'll be unhappy with it because we were up big and then gave a lot of it away. So, therefore, the team hasn't learned its lesson yet, from that point of view.


Agreed. Particularly about Duval. I think observing the game for a few minutes at the start of each half will help him get a better feel.
I was also hoping we'd learn more about the small ball potential of this team, but with 4 big men on this team (when Marvin returns) who all have legitimate NBA potential, K is just not going to sit 3 of them at a time. Other teams are effectively attacking our D when we play big, and we only sporadically punish the opposing D when we play big. K has some figuring out to do.


Of our five losses, only two were to quality teams. (UVA and UNC) And, in both of those games we had a lapse which hurt us. The only thing keeping us from being 25-0 is one tiny word - focus. We are talented enough to win it all, that's a given.
To sum it up as I see it, EVERY team has games where they lose focus, and let teams back into games, that's true. But we do it every game, and more than anything else, it's about that five letter word again, focus...
I also think Grayson needs to shoot when he sees an opening. He passed on an easy three attempt to pass to Trevon, who hit the shot, thank God, but he is not the three point threat Grayson is.
We have some tough games coming up. They have to stay focused, and if we get a big lead, keep your foot on the throat and finish it..:)

Preach it! It's the same thing every game. As you mentioned we are only a few mental lapses from being undefeated. If during 5 minutes of each of those games, a total of 25 minutes, this team had pulled itself out of its haze or gone into its haze a little later, we'd be undefeated. Hell, just 2 minutes in most of those games would have reversed the outcome. This team hasn't put a stranglehold on the pursuit of success yet, but it's still a very good team.


I like this Lineup going forward Allen, Trent, O'Connell, Bagley, and Carter to start the reason being is O'Connell is a 3 point threat and better shooter and Duval also O'Connell seems to crash to boards and good rebounder where duval doesn't really crash or rebound good. I don't think Duval needs to be benched but Allen shouldn't be playing 40 minutes a night I think 20-25 minutes for duval is perfect giving O'Connell trent and allen a break off the bench. Duval just needs to be smarter with the ball and slow down and make better decisions like when he attacks the basket be aggresive and go up don't try to pass when you are already in the lane. Also I believe O'Connell is a better FT shooter than duval. Bolden playing well is going to be huge down the stretch because carter and bagley will both need a break going forward.
You went 0-fer on getting Alex's name right, despite 5 cracks at it. Anyway, i agree about the starting lineup bit, i think giving Duval a couple of minutes to observe the game will help improve his performance on court, which we definitely need.

[Devilwin]

Yawn. Duke had wrapped up the game and GT went on an impressive run, fueled, I would guess, by Alvarado's gruesome injury. (We've seen that before after Kevin Ware's injury.) We were a bit lackadaisical and also missed some easy shots. The Duke lead went from 63-38 at 10:53 to 65-53 at 7:01. After that, we played Tech even, and milked the shot clock below 5:00 rather than looking for chances to expand the lead.

Like you and others, I thought we were gonna win by 40, but it didn't happen. But "inevitable wall. Happens every game." Not at all. In my view, a road win by double digits is a good result.

Not to be contentious, Sage, but which games have we not hit a spell of poor play? We keep waiting for the explosiveness but only see flashes of it.
To your point, a win is a good result, that is true. But many of us here are concerned about these lapses. Oh, you can go back to sleep now..lol (just kidding)

[FerryFor50]

Duke won by 11, and would have been more if GT doesn't hit a couple of long, contested 3s at the end of the game.

GT beat then number 15 Miami and have been in close games in the ACC this year. UNC beat them 80-66, which is a similar score to what Duke beat them by. And this was without Marvin Bagley, with Bolden playing more minutes than he is accustomed to, and with a major lineup tweak.

Does the 2nd half lull concern me? Sure. But this was still a good win, and much needed.

[jv001]

When I said total collapse, I meant we were rolling, then hit the inevitable wall again. Happens every game. Getting out scored by this team by 16 in ten minutes is far from good. Of course we will take the win, and there were a few positives, (Bolden and Allen's play), but still we cannot afford to keep allowing lesser teams back into games like this. I think Tech actually cut it to nine at one point. Of our five losses, only two were to quality teams. (UVA and UNC) And, in both of those games we had a lapse which hurt us. The only thing keeping us from being 25-0 is one tiny word - focus. We are talented enough to win it all, that's a given. But for that eventuality to occur, we can't play like this against quality teams, and these days the NCAA Tourney is full of teams without names like Kentucky and Kansas that can send you packing, as we've seen before. We did make a good percentage of our free throws, that is a positive. I was surprised we had only 11 tos. Seemed like more to me. I guess some of these were so bad, it made it seem like more. When I say that, I mean just wildly throwing the ball out of bounds or right to an opposing player.
Granted, Tech hit some tough shots, but we were not responding, and gave them confidence.
To sum it up as I see it, EVERY team has games where they lose focus, and let teams back into games, that's true. But we do it every game, and more than anything else, it's about that five letter word again, focus...
I also think Grayson needs to shoot when he sees an opening. He passed on an easy three attempt to pass to Trevon, who hit the shot, thank God, but he is not the three point threat Grayson is.
We have some tough games coming up. They have to stay focused, and if we get a big lead, keep your foot on the throat and finish it..:)

One thing that may have caused you to think we had more turnovers than we actually did; there were several instances that Trent drove the ball into the lane and forced up shots. I don't know how many if any were blocked but helped GT's run. Then Grayson turned the ball over a few times in the run. Both Grayson and Duval have had a bad habit of leaving their feet to make passes that resulted in turnovers. However Trevon only had 1 turnover in 25 minutes of play last night, which is a good sign that he may be on an upward trend. It seemed during GTs run that our guards had the ball in their hands with the shot clock running down too many times. I don't know why that happened unless we were milking the clock. I didn't notice that as much during the first 30 minutes.

I believe both Grayson and Trevon have more problems with confidence than anything. Let's hope they get that confidence back. Last night might just be the beginning of that. GoDuke!

[Devilwin]

One thing that may have caused you to think we had more turnovers than we actually did; there were several instances that Trent drove the ball into the lane and forced up shots. I don't know how many if any were blocked but helped GT's run. Then Grayson turned the ball over a few times in the run. Both Grayson and Duval have had a bad habit of leaving their feet to make passes that resulted in turnovers. However Trevon only had 1 turnover in 25 minutes of play last night, which is a good sign that he may be on an upward trend. It seemed during GTs run that our guards had the ball in their hands with the shot clock running down too many times. I don't know why that happened unless we were milking the clock. I didn't notice that as much during the first 30 minutes.

I believe both Grayson and Trevon have more problems with confidence than anything. Let's hope they get that confidence back. Last night might just be the beginning of that. GoDuke!

You may be right. I just watched the game again, and that may be the case.

[FerryFor50]

One thing that may have caused you to think we had more turnovers than we actually did; there were several instances that Trent drove the ball into the lane and forced up shots. I don't know how many if any were blocked but helped GT's run. Then Grayson turned the ball over a few times in the run. Both Grayson and Duval have had a bad habit of leaving their feet to make passes that resulted in turnovers. However Trevon only had 1 turnover in 25 minutes of play last night, which is a good sign that he may be on an upward trend. It seemed during GTs run that our guards had the ball in their hands with the shot clock running down too many times. I don't know why that happened unless we were milking the clock. I didn't notice that as much during the first 30 minutes.

I believe both Grayson and Trevon have more problems with confidence than anything. Let's hope they get that confidence back. Last night might just be the beginning of that. GoDuke!

One thing I've noticed with Duval (and I noticed it again last night) is that he doesn't seem to anticipate passes very well. Meaning, a guy cuts across the baseline, and rather than the ball already on its way to the cutter, Duval waits for the cutter to get to his spot. And even when the cutter gets there, Duval hesitates, pass fakes, etc, so that whatever opportunity was there is gone. He's not very decisive on the simple passes. Instead, he makes decisions under duress. He drives first, then looks to pass when he gets into trouble. He doesn't seem to set things up real well. On the few occasions he does, he gets some nice alley oop dunks to Carter or Bagley. Honestly, that should be Duval's game - beat his man off the dribble and either take a layup or find a big for a weakside lob when the defense collapses on him.

But I'd take just some easy passes to shooters in rhythm.

[BeachBlueDevil]

I'm not going to say anything in particular about this game, much of that has been covered.

But I want to give Bolden major credit for what he did in the game and also against UNC. He's giving good spot minutes and I'm more than comfortable with him moving forward this year and his role off the bench and into next year when he (should) could start at the 5 and be 12/14pt 8/9reb guy.

[Ian]

That's a bit harsh i think, but it does seem like Trevon's grip on 1st round draft pick status slips a little more with each game. He has the physique to get there, but his shooting is a big question mark and his decision making/confidence withe ball in a half court setting seems pretty shaky. How you can come up withe idea that he is a below average distributor while he leads the ACC in assists is a bit baffling. I would love to see him improve his decision-making and distribution skills, but then he would be elite, rather than just very good.



Leading the ACC in assists is such a misleading stat because Duval did a lot of his damage early in the season against overmatched opponents. In ACC play he doesn't even lead the team in assists much less the conference.

[Dukebasketball2020]

Virginia tech scares me wednesday they are lights out from 3 and can shoot it good

[elvis14]

What an interesting game list night. In the same was I was trying not to react to an away loss to the detestable, disgusting Cheaters, I'm trying not to overreact in the other direction over last night's game against a GT team that's not super strong. Here are few random thought, some have to do with this game some are just observations or trends:



I expected Bolden to start, I was surprised that AOC also started
By time he's an upperclassman, AOC is going to be a fantastic Duke player. He just gets it, he has that controlled aggression and quick decision making. He did just fine last night too.
When we were running away from GT, Grayson Allen was in complete control. That was a great thing to watch, and I mean the whole team not just GA.
I hope Duval was paying attention to Grayson last night, a clinic was put on for a while
I hate to say it but I thought Duval looked lost for much of his time on the floor last night.
I don't care about the GT run in the second half. We were up big and K slowed things down (not full stall ball but still). Yeah it took a little shine off the win but I'm going to focus on the positives.
The ball movement in the first half last night was fantastic. Essentially, Bagley and Trent are black holes. Neither passes much at all. It turns out OK because they are both really good, if not amazing, but we could take our offense to the next level with a little more ball movement like we saw in the first half.
Like many others (and the ESPN crew), I wonder if Grayson at the point was a 1 game thing or a mid-season change of course.
Last week I was saying that our ceiling was higher with TD at point but that I wanted him to play fewer minutes to collect himself. I might have been wrong, our ceiling might be higher with GA at the point and TD being a change of pace guy (until he learns to pass in the flow of the offense).
Second game in a row that Bolden looked good. It's like someone finally explained to him that he really is that long! Love that he's scoring with both hands.
I hope Marvin is going to be OK and if it means having him healthy for the tournaments, I'd be OK with him taking more games off.
Hated it when the GT player was injured. Hope he has a speedy recovery.
I have no idea who's going to start the next game or what the rotations are going to look like. I swear it seems like K is using a random number generator to define rotations.

[Natty_B]

Duval is interesting to me. There’s no doubt that he’s loaded with talent but he’s still a child and his game is very, very young. I can’t see him being drafted at ALL right now, if you ask me. He also doesn’t really have a place on next year’s team, unless he wants to come off the bench and spell Stones Jr. Hope he isn’t another transfer, but I really don’t see many options here.

He's projected in the first round, 20's but still first round, of all the recent mock drafts. He'll get drafted.

[Truth&Justise]

I was at the game yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it. Great seeing Duke win on the road!

A couple of things that heven't been said yet:

-GaTech played into K's hands by playing two bigs (Lammers and Gueye). This allowed Duke to stay comfortably in the zone.

-GaTech went on its run when Gueye was on the bench with foul trouble. Playing with one big (Lammers), putting the ball in the hands of their best player/shooter (Okogie) and spreading with wings who could shoot (Wright-Cole-Jackson) is what allowed GaTech to take advantage of openings in the zone. Having finally figured that out, GaTech went on a run. We responded. We won.

-The Carter/Bolden pairing is an awkward fit. It worked when GaTech was playing two bigs, but when they went small we got caught trying to force the ball into whatever big wasn't covered by Lammers. The passing was off and resulted in a few turnovers. Plus neither is quite quick enough to get out and cover the wings in the zone, though Carter impressed me with his effort. Looking forward to Bagley's return so that we can leave this pairing behind.

-Trevon Duvall has a knack for hitting a three when we most need it. Losing at home to FSU? Duvall hit the three to spark our team to the win. Riding a comeback wave against Miami? Duvall hit the three to give us breathing room down the stretch. Down big against St. John's? Duvall hit a three to spark a comeback that culminated in Duke taking the lead near the end of the game. GaTech making a bit of a run? Duvall beats the shot clock buzzer to extend the lead to 15 and takes the air out of their comeback bid. All this talk about the "clutch gene" and no one notices that Duvall seems to have it.

[OldPhiKap]

I was at the game yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it. Great seeing Duke win on the road!

A couple of things that heven't been said yet:

-GaTech played into K's hands by playing two bigs (Lammers and Gueye). This allowed Duke to stay comfortably in the zone.

-GaTech went on its run when Gueye was on the bench with foul trouble. Playing with one big (Lammers), putting the ball in the hands of their best player/shooter (Okogie) and spreading with wings who could shoot (Wright-Cole-Jackson) is what allowed GaTech to take advantage of openings in the zone. Having finally figured that out, GaTech went on a run. We responded. We won.

-The Carter/Bolden pairing is an awkward fit. It worked when GaTech was playing two bigs, but when they went small we got caught trying to force the ball into whatever big wasn't covered by Lammers. The passing was off and resulted in a few turnovers. Plus neither is quite quick enough to get out and cover the wings in the zone, though Carter impressed me with his effort. Looking forward to Bagley's return so that we can leave this pairing behind.

-Trevon Duvall has a knack for hitting a three when we most need it. Losing at home to FSU? Duvall hit the three to spark our team to the win. Riding a comeback wave against Miami? Duvall hit the three to give us breathing room down the stretch. Down big against St. John's? Duvall hit a three to spark a comeback that culminated in Duke taking the lead near the end of the game. GaTech making a bit of a run? Duvall beats the shot clock buzzer to extend the lead to 15 and takes the air out of their comeback bid. All this talk about the "clutch gene" and no one notices that Duvall seems to have it.

Good observations, thanks!

[Kedsy]

The major criticisms of this Duke team seem to relate to improvable issues such as defense and foul shooting.
From this old guy's viewpoint, my major critique is focused on our frequent inability to finish plays at the basket.
It seems to me, that in each of the last half dozen or more games we've messed up several gimme baskets at the hoop for which there were no reasons for the ball not dropping through.

We have the 20th best 2-point FG% in the country. It's possible you just notice it more when we miss.

[jimsumner]

I'm just relieved to see Duke in position to resort to stall ball.

[Troublemaker]

Not to be contentious, Sage, but which games have we not hit a spell of poor play? We keep waiting for the explosiveness but only see flashes of it.
To your point, a win is a good result, that is true. But many of us here are concerned about these lapses. Oh, you can go back to sleep now..lol (just kidding)

A lapse implies that Duke has control, that Duke could just decide to play great ball for 40 minutes but for some reason we don't. It's a very comforting explanation that many people here have decided to adopt. Comforting from the standpoint that it could all just change for Duke at any point in time. Our players could just all of a sudden decide to concentrate for 40 minutes or try hard for 40 minutes or care for 40 minutes or not think about the NBA draft for 40 minutes or whatever label one might use.

But, unfortunately, I don't think that's what's happening. I think Duke has real weaknesses, mostly on defense. Sometimes those weaknesses manifest themselves for the full 40 minutes; for example, I thought @NCSU was 40 minutes of bad play by us. But sometimes those weaknesses manifest themselves for smaller stretches of the game. Yesterday, three of our weaknesses started to manifest themselves in the second half: (1) defensive rebounding, (2) over-focus on postups and telegraphed post entries, and (3) transition defense. The fact they didn't manifest for 40 minutes doesn't make them any less real.

No, I don't believe the narrative that we have lapses. I believe my narrative that we have weaknesses. It's not that we have a great team that doesn't concentrate or try hard. It's that we don't have a great team. (Yet, hopefully.)

[moonpie23]

the name on the front of the jersey inspires EVERY opponent to have a career night. This can not go unspoken.....

our guys have to be ready for that. They can't just look at the other team, who is playing poorly, and expect for them to continue that poor play.

they have to EXPECT that playing against Duke will inspire them, and they have to counter.

[Acymetric]

We have the 20th best 2-point FG% in the country. It's possible you just notice it more when we miss.

People may also be selectively considering our guards (who do seem to leave a lot at the rim). Our bigs, of course, raise the percentage significantly.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

the name on the front of the jersey inspires EVERY opponent to have a career night. This can not go unspoken....



And yet, it does go unspoken all too often. Coach K touches on it, but he can't harp on it or the press will accuse him of whining. Almost all opponents look at the Duke game as their most important of the season, and of their careers. I thought K's touching on this after NC State was subtle but effective...he said something like watching the film didn't do them any good, because the State team he faced was not the same team he saw on film. He might've said that after BC too.

After we lost to State in Cameron last year, I told celebrating State fans around me that I hope they enjoy their NIT trip. I knew they had just won their super bowl, and would do nothing the rest of the year. As it turns out, they didn't even make the NIT and they fired their coach.

It's like this for everybody. I'd like to tell UVa to STFU until they manage to make a regional.....let alone a Final Four....

[DukieInBrasil]

I was at the game yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it. Great seeing Duke win on the road!

A couple of things that heven't been said yet:

-GaTech played into K's hands by playing two bigs (Lammers and Gueye). This allowed Duke to stay comfortably in the zone.

-GaTech went on its run when Gueye was on the bench with foul trouble. Playing with one big (Lammers), putting the ball in the hands of their best player/shooter (Okogie) and spreading with wings who could shoot (Wright-Cole-Jackson) is what allowed GaTech to take advantage of openings in the zone. Having finally figured that out, GaTech went on a run. We responded. We won.

-The Carter/Bolden pairing is an awkward fit. It worked when GaTech was playing two bigs, but when they went small we got caught trying to force the ball into whatever big wasn't covered by Lammers. The passing was off and resulted in a few turnovers. Plus neither is quite quick enough to get out and cover the wings in the zone, though Carter impressed me with his effort. Looking forward to Bagley's return so that we can leave this pairing behind.

-Trevon Duvall has a knack for hitting a three when we most need it. Losing at home to FSU? Duvall hit the three to spark our team to the win. Riding a comeback wave against Miami? Duvall hit the three to give us breathing room down the stretch. Down big against St. John's? Duvall hit a three to spark a comeback that culminated in Duke taking the lead near the end of the game. GaTech making a bit of a run? Duvall beats the shot clock buzzer to extend the lead to 15 and takes the air out of their comeback bid. All this talk about the "clutch gene" and no one notices that Duvall seems to have it.

he's also bricked some 3s that negate all of what you wrote. For example, vs. BC, he bricked a 3 in crunch time and that sparked BC on to the win.

[Lar77]

First and foremost, we won. The game tightened up a bit, but we did a lot of good things.

A contrast between how we play zone and Syracuse played zone (both on TV yesterday). Ball goes to the side. Wingman cheats up. Syracuse will rotate slightly so the corner man is not wide open if the ball goes down there, but doesn't leave the guy in the middle wide open (weak side comes in a bit). We don't. Syracuse guys are actively moving in their coverage areas and fall back if there is a pass to the top of the key. We do for a while, then get sloppy.

Defensive rebounding. Last night, several times our big guys got boxed, not on the inside, but on the outside to block the long rebound. And our guards tend to wait for the ball to come to them. Result offensive rebound.

Dribbling. We tend to dribble around the perimeter instead of passing. And we don't seem to pass back out on the entry. Different team and skill sets, but the kick out had been a Duke staple. And Trent, Allen and AOC seem to be reliable on the kick out.

[uh_no]

Hated it when the GT player was injured. Hope he has a speedy recovery.


Though I couldn't see much, from what the ref was saying to the coach, that was a Kevin Ware. I can't imagine he's not done for the year.

When you see someone holding that part of their arm, there's almost nothing else it's going to be other than a break.

Feel for the kid. rough way to end your year.

[hudlow]

Though I couldn't see much, from what the ref was saying to the coach, that was a Kevin Ware. I can't imagine he's not done for the year.

When you see someone holding that part of their arm, there's almost nothing else it's going to be other than a break.

Feel for the kid. rough way to end your year.


From GT men's Basketball Twitter...

"...point guard Jose Alvarado suffered a dislocated elbow and is likely out for the remainder of the season."

[robed deity]

A lapse implies that Duke has control, that Duke could just decide to play great ball for 40 minutes but for some reason we don't. It's a very comforting explanation that many people here have decided to adopt. Comforting from the standpoint that it could all just change for Duke at any point in time. Our players could just all of a sudden decide to concentrate for 40 minutes or try hard for 40 minutes or care for 40 minutes or not think about the NBA draft for 40 minutes or whatever label one might use.

But, unfortunately, I don't think that's what's happening. I think Duke has real weaknesses, mostly on defense. Sometimes those weaknesses manifest themselves for the full 40 minutes; for example, I thought @NCSU was 40 minutes of bad play by us. But sometimes those weaknesses manifest themselves for smaller stretches of the game. Yesterday, three of our weaknesses started to manifest themselves in the second half: (1) defensive rebounding, (2) over-focus on postups and telegraphed post entries, and (3) transition defense. The fact they didn't manifest for 40 minutes doesn't make them any less real.

No, I don't believe the narrative that we have lapses. I believe my narrative that we have weaknesses. It's not that we have a great team that doesn't concentrate or try hard. It's that we don't have a great team. (Yet, hopefully.)

Totally agree with all of this. I will say that 2 of your defensive weaknesses (def rebounding and transition defense) are often linked to effort so it perhaps contributes to the notion they aren't "trying hard." But yeah, there is a skill element to these things too.

[Kedsy]

he's also bricked some 3s that negate all of what you wrote. For example, vs. BC, he bricked a 3 in crunch time and that sparked BC on to the win.

I don't think it negates what he wrote. I mean, I'm sure Tyus Jones missed a few threes, too. We only remember the ones he made.


People may also be selectively considering our guards (who do seem to leave a lot at the rim). Our bigs, of course, raise the percentage significantly.

Maybe, but our guards aren't missing disproportionately inside, either. Here's a comparison of percentage at the rim (from Hoop-math) among the last four Duke teams:

2015
-----
Grayson Allen: 75.0% (wow, but limited number of attempts)
Quinn Cook: 66.7%
Rasheed Sulaimon: 56.2%
Tyus Jones: 55.6%
Matt Jones: 51.7%

2016
-----
Grayson Allen: 61.1%
Luke Kennard: 59.5%
Brandon Ingram: 58.8%
Derryck Thornton: 51.9%
Matt Jones: 39.7%

2017
-----
Frank Jackson: 63.2%
Jayson Tatum: 62.0%
Luke Kennard: 61.8%
Matt Jones: 55.6%
Grayson Allen: 52.2%

2018
-----
Gary Trent: 66.7%
Alex O'Connell: 66.7%
Grayson Allen: 62.2%
Trevon Duval: 59.6%

At the very least, this year's perimeter group appears to be shooting a higher percentage at the rim than any of our previous three teams (including 2015). So I'm back to we just notice it more when we miss.

Though it's possible we just don't understand that a guard hitting 60% of his shots at the rim is pretty good and 65% is really good.

[Wander]

Matt Jones: 39.7%


Oh god. No offense to Matt (we could definitely use him on this defensive-challenged team!), but this is a stat I do not miss.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

the name on the front of the jersey inspires EVERY opponent to have a career night. This can not go unspoken....



I just wish the name on the front of the jersey inspired more from OUR guys.

[freshmanjs]

But, unfortunately, I don't think that's what's happening. I think Duke has real weaknesses, mostly on defense. Sometimes those weaknesses manifest themselves for the full 40 minutes; for example, I thought @NCSU was 40 minutes of bad play by us. But sometimes those weaknesses manifest themselves for smaller stretches of the game. Yesterday, three of our weaknesses started to manifest themselves in the second half: (1) defensive rebounding, (2) over-focus on postups and telegraphed post entries, and (3) transition defense. The fact they didn't manifest for 40 minutes doesn't make them any less real.

No, I don't believe the narrative that we have lapses. I believe my narrative that we have weaknesses. It's not that we have a great team that doesn't concentrate or try hard. It's that we don't have a great team. (Yet, hopefully.)

I'm not sure why this is one narrative or the other -- it can be both. The question (to me) is *why* do those weaknesses manifest sometimes and not other times. The reason could have to do with concentration, focus, or effort. It is certainly possible to have a weakness that you can overcome with great focus and discipline, but resurface with any let up in focus.

[AtlDuke72]

The I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing on this Board is too much for me. The team was up by 26 points without its best player. Anybody who watches sports knows it is hard to play with a huge lead in a blow out. I saw the first game of the year in 1992 in Greensboro when the same thing happened to the defending national champs with Hurley, Laettner , Hill et al. only ended up winning by 10 points or so. I am gone.

[FerryFor50]

The I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing on this Board is too much for me. The team was up by 26 points without its best player. Anybody who watch s sports knows it is hard to play with a huge lead in a blow out. I say the first game of the year in 1992 in Frensboreo when the same thing happened and the defending national champs with Hurley, lawtrner , Hill et al. Only ended up winning by 10 points or so

What are you talking about? The 1991 Duke team won every game by 100 points, never turned the ball over and never missed a shot. :cool:

[freshmanjs]

What are you talking about? The 1991 Duke team won every game by 100 points, never turned the ball over and never missed a shot. :cool:

I was a freshman that year...Hanes house. My roommate kept saying all year: "We're just not that good." By the time of the Kansas game, it became a bit of a running joke. There was definitely a lot of angst about the team (and its sophomore PG) that year.

[FerryFor50]

I was a freshman that year...Hanes house. My roommate kept saying all year: "We're just not that good." By the time of the Kansas game, it became a bit of a running joke. There was definitely a lot of angst about the team (and its freshman PG) that year.

No worries. Tyus Jones' perfection erased all memory of the flawed Bobby Hurley.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

What are you talking about? The 1991 Duke team won every game by 100 points, never turned the ball over and never missed a shot. :cool:

Only better team was 1999. Pretty sure why were unscored on until the Final Four.

[jv001]

Totally agree with all of this. I will say that 2 of your defensive weaknesses (def rebounding and transition defense) are often linked to effort so it perhaps contributes to the notion they aren't "trying hard." But yeah, there is a skill element to these things too.

Defensive rebounding is a failure of our big guys not boxing out. So, I put that into the mental failure portion of weaknesses because all our guys are athletic enough to box out. As for transition defense, some of it is effort and some of it is getting caught standing around. Once again a mental weakness. I think lack of focus(mental) and in-experience are our two biggest weaknesses. GoDuke!

[Matches]

What are you talking about? The 1991 Duke team won every game by 100 points, never turned the ball over and never missed a shot. :cool:

That does seem to be the standard around here these days. :) We just won by double digits on the road against an ACC team that is not Pitt without our best player, but that’s somehow bad because at some point in the game the other team went on a run.

We took our foot off the gas, guys. It happens. I’d love to see us put together 40 great minutes every time out but that’s not a realistic expectation. I am sensitive to the idea that we have been prone to lapses this year, and I agree that maintaining mental focus is a work in progress for this team, but if we’re going to have lapses let’s have them when we’re up by 26. :)

Anyway I thought we played well up until that point. The zone looked more active to me although I wonder if it is exacerbating our defensive rebounding problems by confusing box-out assignments. Happy to see Grayson be more aggressive - yes there were more shots than usual available for him but the lane wasn’t any less clogged than it ever is. We still played two bigs almost the whole game.

[Rich]

Defensive rebounding is a failure of our big guys not boxing out. So, I put that into the mental failure portion of weaknesses because all our guys are athletic enough to box out. As for transition defense, some of it is effort and some of it is getting caught standing around. Once again a mental weakness. I think lack of focus(mental) and in-experience are our two biggest weaknesses. GoDuke!

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but isn't defensive rebounding harder in zone compared to m2m because it's harder to find a body to box out? I would have to think that any dip in our defensive rebounding compared to previous years has to be somewhat related to our extensive use of zone over m2m this season.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing on this Board is too much for me. The team was up by 26 points without its best player. Anybody who watches sports knows it is hard to play with a huge lead in a blow out. I saw the first game of the year in 1992 in Greensboro when the same thing happened to the defending national champs with Hurley, Laettner , Hill et al. only ended up winning by 10 points or so. I am gone.

Frankly, I don't see I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing....I see some comments of concern, and a big part of the Tech game looked a lot like the beginning of the second half of the Carolina game. I think it's fair to say we would like that thing tightened up. That's not I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing.

And BTW, you refer to the Iowa game, in the second round (they beat Campbell in the opening round) in Greensboro. They were beating Iowa so badly that for a while, the Duke fans were yelling "Campbell's Better" at Iowa. Then they did implode. And yes, they almost lost the lead. And guess what? They were indeed concerned. They were rattled. Sometimes that is appropriate.

Frankly, I think fans who never say anything but 100% positive comments are unrealistic and like parents who spoil their kids.

[moonpie23]

The I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing on this Board is too much for me. The team was up by 26 points without its best player. Anybody who watches sports knows it is hard to play with a huge lead in a blow out. I saw the first game of the year in 1992 in Greensboro when the same thing happened to the defending national champs with Hurley, Laettner , Hill et al. only ended up winning by 10 points or so. I am gone.

the green light says you're still here :)


seriously, it's a college bb sports forum, not a manfesto...

[AtlDuke72]

I was a little off. The game I was referring to was against St. John’s on Dec. 5, 1991 in Greensboro. Final score was 91-81

You must have a very high bar for I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing if you can’t see it ion this Board!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I was a little off. The game I was referring to was against St. John’s on Dec. 5, 1991 in Greensboro. Final score was 91-81

You must have a very high bar for I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing if you can’t see it ion this Board!

Perhaps I do have a high bar, I spend more time on political forums.....and I'm really glad you mentioned that St Johns game in Dec of 1991. That was when the 91-92 team peaked....the first 30 minutes of that game, when they were up 60 something to 30 something. The announcers were going crazy. This was the very experienced defending champions as you know....and they started the season in peak form.

They were just so good that they managed to win the NCAA title even while peaking four months earlier. Their run to the 92 title was far tougher over all than their 91 run, including of course the Laettner game.

[devildeac]

I was a little off. The game I was referring to was against St. John’s on Dec. 5, 1991 in Greensboro. Final score was 91-81

You must have a very high bar for I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing if you can’t see it ion this Board!

"Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please:"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Perhaps I do have a high bar, I spend more time on political forums....and I'm really glad you mentioned that St Johns game in Dec of 1991. That was when the 91-92 team peaked...the first 30 minutes of that game, when they were up 60 something to 30 something. The announcers were going crazy. This was the very experienced defending champions as you know...and they started the season in peak form.

They were just so good that they managed to win the NCAA title even while peaking four months earlier. Their run to the 92 title was far tougher over all than their 91 run, including of course the Laettner game.

To be fair, AtlDuke72 has been here eleven years longer than you...

[CDu]

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but isn't defensive rebounding harder in zone compared to m2m because it's harder to find a body to box out? I would have to think that any dip in our defensive rebounding compared to previous years has to be somewhat related to our extensive use of zone over m2m this season.

Defensive rebounding IS more difficult in zone. But we are actually a BETTER defensive rebounding team this year than usual. We have always been a bad box-out team.

[sagegrouse]

What are you talking about? The 1991 Duke team won every game by 100 points, never turned the ball over and never missed a shot. :cool:

You're thinking of 1992 -- and that team got huge leads and then just clowned around for the rest of the game.

[sagegrouse]

Perhaps I do have a high bar, I spend more time on political forums....and I'm really glad you mentioned that St Johns game in Dec of 1991. That was when the 91-92 team peaked...the first 30 minutes of that game, when they were up 60 something to 30 something. The announcers were going crazy. This was the very experienced defending champions as you know...and they started the season in peak form.

They were just so good that they managed to win the NCAA title even while peaking four months earlier. Their run to the 92 title was far tougher over all than their 91 run, including of course the Laettner game.

Welcome to the Board. Two days. I disagree with your characterization of the run-to-the-title being easier for Duke in 1991 than in 1992. Well, to start with, we lost seven games in 1991 and got blown out by 22 by UNC in the ACC tournament. Moreover, the win over UNLV was close to miraculous.

In 1992 we lost two games, one at Wake with Hurley out and another at UNC by a couple of points. We roared through the ACC tournament. We had "the shot" -- but that was against a Kentucky team that was playing out of its mind. We had a clear lead against Indiana in the NCAA semis until the Hoosiers rallied in the last couple of minutes. Then we beat Michigan by 20 -- the biggest positive margin we have ever had in an NCAA final.

BTW, you and AtlDuke72 are looking at different sides of the coin with respect to the St. John's game in December 1991. You stressed the huge lead against a highly ranked team --AtlDuke72 emphasized the way we gave away 20 points of the lead by just clowning our way through the last ten minutes.

Kindly,
Sage
'BTW, I was there in 1963 when #4 Duke beat #6 West Virginia with Rod Thorn by 40 points, 111-71. I don't think we let up on the gas!'

[Troublemaker]

I'm not sure why this is one narrative or the other -- it can be both. The question (to me) is *why* do those weaknesses manifest sometimes and not other times. The reason could have to do with concentration, focus, or effort. It is certainly possible to have a weakness that you can overcome with great focus and discipline, but resurface with any let up in focus.

Are we sure that this Duke team is uniquely inconsistent, though? I just think unless you're a great team, or unless you're playing a completely inept opponent (Pitt), your warts will usually show over the course of 40 minutes (but not necessarily all 40 minutes). I also think fans very easily grab onto the comforting explanations of focus, effort, or discipline. I mean, how many times over the years have we seen Wheat come on here after a UNC loss and bemoan that UNC had just played unfocused? I think plenty.

[dukelifer]

What are you talking about? The 1991 Duke team won every game by 100 points, never turned the ball over and never missed a shot. :cool:

Much like 2010. That team of juniors and seniors never made a mistake or misstep- not like Freshman.

[Skydog]

Frankly, I don't see I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing...I see some comments of concern, and a big part of the Tech game looked a lot like the beginning of the second half of the Carolina game. I think it's fair to say we would like that thing tightened up. That's not I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing.
.....

I'm with you. And yes, I would have been happy with the final score before the game started because I appreciate how hard it is to win ACC road games. So again yes, I'm appreciative of the win. But that still doesn't make me blind to how our offense - except for the first 2 minutes- really stalled in the 2nd half. In the final 10 minutes we had trouble even getting a shot off, going 2 for 9 I believe, and hadonly 1 assist and 4 turnovers. I know we were playing a slow down game but there is no reason for that to keep us from getting off good shots. But we ended up forcing up a lot of bad shots (while Grayson passed up a few good ones) in the second half and it didn't go well. Fortunately our rebounding and excellent free throw shooting saved us.

So yes I agree that building up the big lead in the first half was great and getting the win was great. That doesn't invalidate the concerns some of us have about how we have closed out this game and other games recently.

[Acymetric]

That does seem to be the standard around here these days. :) We just won by double digits on the road against an ACC team that is not Pitt without our best player, but that’s somehow bad because at some point in the game the other team went on a run.

We took our foot off the gas, guys. It happens. I’d love to see us put together 40 great minutes every time out but that’s not a realistic expectation. I am sensitive to the idea that we have been prone to lapses this year, and I agree that maintaining mental focus is a work in progress for this team, but if we’re going to have lapses let’s have them when we’re up by 26. :)

Anyway I thought we played well up until that point. The zone looked more active to me although I wonder if it is exacerbating our defensive rebounding problems by confusing box-out assignments. Happy to see Grayson be more aggressive - yes there were more shots than usual available for him but the lane wasn’t any less clogged than it ever is. We still played two bigs almost the whole game.

I think part of the reason people complain is that we have yet to really blow anyone (of any consequence) out. Pitt twice and Wake once are the only games that come close and those are two bad teams. It is easier to look past letting off the gas or having to claw back from a deficit against an overmatched team if you can look to dominant performances, but in our case getting down early or getting up and letting teams back into the game has been almost universal. We have dominant stretches but have yet to have a dominant game (against a decent P5 opponent). I think that is where the complaints come from.

[Rich]

I think part of the reason people complain is that we have yet to really blow anyone (of any consequence) out. Pitt twice and Wake once are the only games that come close and those are two bad teams. It is easier to look past letting off the gas or having to claw back from a deficit against an overmatched team if you can look to dominant performances, but in our case getting down early or getting up and letting teams back into the game has been almost universal. We have dominant stretches but have yet to have a dominant game (against a decent P5 opponent). I think that is where the complaints come from.

Granted they were shorthanded, but we beat Notre Dame by 22.

[Acymetric]

Granted they were shorthanded, but we beat Notre Dame by 22.

But that's just it...Notre Dame was BAD when they were shorthanded (and it's the only game this year that would even be in the discussion). It's kind of a sliding scale (when the discussion is about reaction the focus is on perception, not metrics). Notre Dame was a solid beating of a bad opponent. Basically, perception-wise, the worse the opponent the larger the margin needs to be to "satisfy the masses" and the Notre Dame game is probably just this side of that line (big enough to be good, but so big as to burn it into memory).

An extreme example would be our 50+ point win against GT last year. Indiana/VT might be examples from 2015-16. Unsurprisingly in 2014-15 there were a ton: Wake Forest, Notre Dame, along with possibly BC and Clemson. Some of those margins are similar to Notre Dame this year and may have been bad teams, so what's the difference? Again, perception drives reaction and beating a bad team feels better than beating a team that is short-handed.

I think that at least partly explains some of the reaction we're getting.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Welcome to the Board. Two days. I disagree with your characterization of the run-to-the-title being easier for Duke in 1991 than in 1992. Well, to start with, we lost seven games in 1991 and got blown out by 22 by UNC in the ACC tournament. Moreover, the win over UNLV was close to miraculous.

'

Sage, to clarify, I meant the NCAA tournament run over all was easier in 91 - not the season - the six games of the tournament. Yes, the UNLV game was tight as heck in 91 in the semis, but I"m talking total body of work over six games....

In 1991, but Duke rolled through the first 4 rounds very easily, and then in the finals, even exhausted mentally and physically from UNLV, always kept control against Kansas.

There was nothing like the testy Seton Hall game in the 92 Sweet 16 and certainly nothing like the Kentucky game in the Regional Final in 92.

In 92, they trailed Indiana badly, rallied, took the lead, then almost lost the lead, in the semis. The final game against the Fab 5 was close until the last 6-7 minutes, when Duke looked like the team of December January again, which was by far the best team in the country.

Again, overall, the six game run in 1991 was far more comfortable than the six game run in 92. Over all....

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Oh god. No offense to Matt (we could definitely use him on this defensive-challenged team!), but this is a stat I do not miss.

And take away the fantasy island performance against the Zags, and what would that number have been????

[HereBeforeCoachK]

To be fair, AtlDuke72 has been here eleven years longer than you...

So are we judging cred by time on this board? Dude, I've been a fan over 50 years. I started very young being very much a fan. But I was too young to live through the Vic Bubas success or football success during those years...just old enough to start caring when the losing really kicked in.

I stayed a Duke fan through loss after loss after loss in both football and basketball for many years before Coach Spurrier and Coach K gave me something to smile about. Much of that time I was also a sports writer and broadcaster, when people paid me for my opinions.

Look, I am very impressed by this board, and sorry I didn't find it until now. But I will not let my length of time on this board dictate my credibility. I was a Duke fan long before this board existed, long before the internet existed, and odds are I've been around Duke sports longer than the majority of posters here, purely based on demographics.

I'll not question anyone's cred here, but I'm not playing this noob game on my cred either.

[Troublemaker]

And take away the fantasy island performance against the Zags, and what would that number have been????

Wrong season. Plus, Matt's offensive outburst in the Elite 8 game vs Gonzaga had more to do with banging home a bunch threes rather than an exhibition of finishing around the basket.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Wrong season. Plus, Matt's offensive outburst in the Elite 8 game vs Gonzaga had more to do with banging home a bunch threes rather than an exhibition of finishing around the basket.

Oh yes, it was almost all threes......against the Zags. Out of body experience stuff.

[godins]

And take away the fantasy island performance against the Zags, and what would that number have been????

Matt Jones was 2-3 on shots from the rim that game so...almost the exact same percentage (<40%). Not sure exactly what you're going for with that comment, but Matt was terrible - terrible - terrible going to the bucket that year. His 4-7 3PT that game is what kept us afloat against Gonzaga, not shots at the rim.

ETA: Dang, Troublemaker beat me there.

[godins]

Granted they were shorthanded, but we beat Notre Dame by 22.

If tonight's Matt Farrell (1-12 3PT and 3-18FG overall) showed up when we played Notre Dame we might have won by 30, not 22. He's been much better than that this season but wow, talk about a clunker of a game shooting.

[Troublemaker]

Oh yes, it was almost all threes...against the Zags. Out of body experience stuff.

Nope. Matt was a career 37% shooter from three, and he had 6 other games during his career in which he hit as many threes (four) as he hit against Gonzaga.



Look, I am very impressed by this board, and sorry I didn't find it until now.

Oh, I think we both know this isn't true.

But, look, you've not really said anything objectionable so far during this current run, imo. Continue to be a good poster, yes? That's all anyone asks of "newbies."

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Nope. Matt was a career 37% shooter from three, and he had 6 other games during his career in which he hit as many threes (four) as he hit against Gonzaga.



Oh, I think we both know this isn't true.

But, look, you've not really said anything objectionable so far during this current run, imo. Continue to be a good poster, yes? That's all anyone asks of "newbies."

I'll run you head to head with Duke trivia, FB and BB, any day. I may not beat you, but you'll know I know my stuff when it's over.

[ncexnyc]

Besides having some of the most knowledgeable basketball fans around, this board also boasts some of the BIGGEST egos as well.

Carry on gentlemen with your testosterone challenge.

[tteettimes]

Carry on gentlemen with your testosterone challenge.

Right.......I better go and take my pill

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So are we judging cred by time on this board?

Well, yes. That and sporks. :)

Look, you seem to be a big fan and that's great. So is everyone else on here. But I will admit that I do look askance at anyone who comes in and immediately starts making waves. I guess maybe it isn't fair, but we get LOTS of people who pop on for short periods of time, say outrageous things or outright trolls the community, and then magically disappear.

Additionally, you were addressing the "I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing" on this board and discussing it with someone who's been here ten years. I'm far more inclined to take the perspective of someone who has been here since its inception.

This board is the testiest I have ever seen it this season. Lots of overwhelming reactionary BS after each play, much less each game. Along with our high expectations and high level recruits comes some of the nastier sides of fandom that seem to expect perfection from our team in all its forms. And yes, to me, that seems "I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.y," compared to some of our other teams.

Carry on, and welcome to the community. But don't be surprised if people roll their eyes when someone new to the board starts talking about Big Picture Perspectives.

[dyedwab]

I think part of the reason people complain is that we have yet to really blow anyone (of any consequence) out. Pitt twice and Wake once are the only games that come close and those are two bad teams. It is easier to look past letting off the gas or having to claw back from a deficit against an overmatched team if you can look to dominant performances, but in our case getting down early or getting up and letting teams back into the game has been almost universal. We have dominant stretches but have yet to have a dominant game (against a decent P5 opponent). I think that is where the complaints come from.

I was thinking about this last night, as I watched snowboarder Chloe Kim win a gold medal. Long story short, her first run ran away from the rest of the field and, by the time it was time for her last run, she had already clinched the gold medal. So, in her "glory run", which, again, was unnecessary for her victory, she bested her ALREADY GOLD MEDAL WINNING SCORE by a margin close to (I haven't looked at the exact score yet) the distance between her first score, and the second place finisher.

That's what I think people here want to see. It's been the exception, not the rule, that we build a working margin of 10-15 and then expand it. And that's before substitutions, etc. Anyway, a convincing win over a good team when we build lead and don't hang on by our fingernails would be helpful - until the next game when we go on a 7 minute scoring drought and play a team with less talent but more experience in a +/- 3 point contest....

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I was thinking about this last night, as I watched snowboarder Chloe Kim win a gold medal. Long story short, her first run ran away from the rest of the field and, by the time it was time for her last run, she had already clinched the gold medal. So, in her "glory run", which, again, was unnecessary for her victory, she bested her ALREADY GOLD MEDAL WINNING SCORE by a margin close to (I haven't looked at the exact score yet) the distance between her first score, and the second place finisher.

That's what I think people here want to see. It's been the exception, not the rule, that we build a working margin of 10-15 and then expand it. And that's before substitutions, etc. Anyway, a convincing win over a good team when we build lead and don't hang on by our fingernails would be helpful - until the next game when we go on a 7 minute scoring drought and play a team with less talent but more experience in a +/- 3 point contest...

This is what I have been waiting for all season. I'm just not so committed to this possibility that I'm disappointed every game that is DOESN'T happen. I still say even odds that we do this once in the next three weeks, likely against a good team.

[elvis14]

Well, yes. That and sporks. :)

Look, you seem to be a big fan and that's great. So is everyone else on here. But I will admit that I do look askance at anyone who comes in and immediately starts making waves. I guess maybe it isn't fair, but we get LOTS of people who pop on for short periods of time, say outrageous things or outright trolls the community, and then magically disappear.

Additionally, you were addressing the "I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing" on this board and discussing it with someone who's been here ten years. I'm far more inclined to take the perspective of someone who has been here since its inception.

This board is the testiest I have ever seen it this season. Lots of overwhelming reactionary BS after each play, much less each game. Along with our high expectations and high level recruits comes some of the nastier sides of fandom that seem to expect perfection from our team in all its forms. And yes, to me, that seems "I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.y," compared to some of our other teams.

Carry on, and welcome to the community. But don't be surprised if people roll their eyes when someone new to the board starts talking about Big Picture Perspectives.

I don't even know how long I've been reading and posting on DBR (around 20 years now) but in regards to the bolded section above: Mtn.Devil is right. I don't know if it's just a sign of the times but DBR is not super friendly right now. It's still my favorite place to talk Duke hoops but I haven't looked around for a long time. I joined a few Facebook pages that discuss the team and they are downright awful and full of idiots. The discourse here on DBR is not as polite as it used to be and I swear if I see one more condescending post where someone claims an opinion is false because they don't have some obscure stat to back it up....

One thing to always remember, that I think gets forgotten around here: if you must attack, attack the subject being posted, not the poster.
Of course, don't come on here and expect to get instant respect. It's earned here just like everywhere else. That's just life.
Listen to Herm Edwards and "Don't hit send". I can't count how many replies I've typed and then just dumped.

Hope everyone has a great day.

[rsvman]

I don't even know how long I've been reading and posting on DBR (around 20 years now) but in regards to the bolded section above: Mtn.Devil is right. I don't know if it's just a sign of the times but DBR is not super friendly right now. It's still my favorite place to talk Duke hoops but I haven't looked around for a long time. I joined a few Facebook pages that discuss the team and they are downright awful and full of idiots. The discourse here on DBR is not as polite as it used to be and I swear if I see one more condescending post where someone claims an opinion is false because they don't have some obscure stat to back it up...

One thing to always remember, that I think gets forgotten around here: if you must attack, attack the subject being posted, not the poster.
Of course, don't come on here and expect to get instant respect. It's earned here just like everywhere else. That's just life.
Listen to Herm Edwards and "Don't hit send". I can't count how many replies I've typed and then just dumped.

Hope everyone has a great day.

Oh yeah??!? Well, ummmm....., your mom!!!:rolleyes::D

[elvis14]

Oh yeah??!? Well, ummmm..., your mom!!!:rolleyes::D

Thanks, that honesty made me laugh. My mom's pissed though so you might want to watch your back! (4'10" of quiet fury and that disappointing look we all hate to get).

[thedukelamere]

I don't even know how long I've been reading and posting on DBR (around 20 years now) but in regards to the bolded section above: Mtn.Devil is right. I don't know if it's just a sign of the times but DBR is not super friendly right now. It's still my favorite place to talk Duke hoops but I haven't looked around for a long time. I joined a few Facebook pages that discuss the team and they are downright awful and full of idiots. The discourse here on DBR is not as polite as it used to be and I swear if I see one more condescending post where someone claims an opinion is false because they don't have some obscure stat to back it up...

I did that last year prior to the season's start, and it took me 3 games to exit the group. Reminded me of watching high school football in the stands after coaching on the sidelines for a few years; the general lack of knowledge of the game was astounding.

[Matches]

This board is the testiest I have ever seen it this season. Lots of overwhelming reactionary BS after each play, much less each game. Along with our high expectations and high level recruits comes some of the nastier sides of fandom that seem to expect perfection from our team in all its forms. And yes, to me, that seems "I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.y," compared to some of our other teams.



Yea I can remember a few times when the mood here was a little rough. The end of the 2007 season comes to mind, or the days right after the now-infamous Skype announcement. I don't think I can remember a time, though, when the expectations (some) people had of the team were so exaggerated. We seem to expect near-robotic precision and dominance. I wonder if, despite our experience last season, people still get pulled in by all the recruiting hype and expect that to translate into a super-team. 1999 was a LOT of fun until the end but the idea of just rolling everyone in sight with a team full of freshmen, even very talented and hyped freshmen, was never realistic.

[OldPhiKap]

Yea I can remember a few times when the mood here was a little rough. The end of the 2007 season comes to mind, or the days right after the now-infamous Skype announcement. I don't think I can remember a time, though, when the expectations (some) people had of the team were so exaggerated. We seem to expect near-robotic precision and dominance. I wonder if, despite our experience last season, people still get pulled in by all the recruiting hype and expect that to translate into a super-team. 1999 was a LOT of fun until the end but the idea of just rolling everyone in sight with a team full of freshmen, even very talented and hyped freshmen, was never realistic.

It's a good thing the internet did not exist when Bobby Hurley was a freshman.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I find it really detracts from my personal ability to enjoy the individual games and moments. Not that the board is in any way responsible for my enjoyment of Duke basketball, I just feel the mood has shifted away from having fun to focusing on the next recruiting class while this one is still learning to play defense.

[FerryFor50]

Yea I can remember a few times when the mood here was a little rough. The end of the 2007 season comes to mind, or the days right after the now-infamous Skype announcement. I don't think I can remember a time, though, when the expectations (some) people had of the team were so exaggerated. We seem to expect near-robotic precision and dominance. I wonder if, despite our experience last season, people still get pulled in by all the recruiting hype and expect that to translate into a super-team. 1999 was a LOT of fun until the end but the idea of just rolling everyone in sight with a team full of freshmen, even very talented and hyped freshmen, was never realistic.

I remember 2015 being pretty ridiculous, too.

[UrinalCake]

The worst thing to happen to us as fans was that preseason #1 ranking, which was largely buoyed by Bagley committing so late and overestimation of the freshmen in general. Had we started the season ranked #10 and projected to finish #2 in the conference, a far more reasonable expectation for a team full of freshmen, I don’t think fans would be so up in arms right now.

And BTW I remember Coach K specifically stating at the start of the season that the media likes to overrate us so that they can act happy when we “fail.” Maybe he knew what he was talking about.

[Kedsy]

I remember 2015 being pretty ridiculous, too.

To me, one of the worst years was 2010. The constant criticism of Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek and how they should both be benched immediately so we wouldn't be playing "three on five" on offense. How Jon Scheyer might have good stats but the team couldn't win without a "real" point guard. How Coach K couldn't recruit anymore. How we just didn't have enough NBA players to be a championship team. I remember at the Final Four thinking how sweet it was to win after all that negativity all season and maybe the win would finally put all the negative Nellies in their place.

Now, of course, the team's problem is it isn't exactly like the 2010 team. I guess I should have seen that coming.

[uh_no]

The worst thing to happen to us as fans was that preseason #1 ranking, which was largely buoyed by Bagley committing so late and overestimation of the freshmen in general. Had we started the season ranked #10 and projected to finish #2 in the conference, a far more reasonable expectation for a team full of freshmen, I don’t think fans would be so up in arms right now.

And BTW I remember Coach K specifically stating at the start of the season that the media likes to overrate us so that they can act happy when we “fail.” Maybe he knew what he was talking about.

How dare you accuse the polls or this board of being concerned with reasonable expectations :)

[FerryFor50]

To me, one of the worst years was 2010. The constant criticism of Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek and how they should both be benched immediately so we wouldn't be playing "three on five" on offense. How Jon Scheyer might have good stats but the team couldn't win without a "real" point guard. How Coach K couldn't recruit anymore. How we just didn't have enough NBA players to be a championship team. I remember at the Final Four thinking how sweet it was to win after all that negativity all season and maybe the win would finally put all the negative Nellies in their place.

Now, of course, the team's problem is it isn't exactly like the 2010 team. I guess I should have seen that coming.

2015 was complaining about one and dones (sound familiar?) and Matt Jones, Rasheed Sulaimon and Amile not having an outside shot.

[Kedsy]

2015 was complaining about one and dones (sound familiar?) and Matt Jones, Rasheed Sulaimon and Amile not having an outside shot.

Yeah, I remember. And about being incapable of playing defense. And about Tyus Jones not being good enough to be the PG on a championship team. (I suppose that was before he was deified.)

[jv001]

To me, one of the worst years was 2010. The constant criticism of Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek and how they should both be benched immediately so we wouldn't be playing "three on five" on offense. How Jon Scheyer might have good stats but the team couldn't win without a "real" point guard. How Coach K couldn't recruit anymore. How we just didn't have enough NBA players to be a championship team. I remember at the Final Four thinking how sweet it was to win after all that negativity all season and maybe the win would finally put all the negative Nellies in their place.

Now, of course, the team's problem is it isn't exactly like the 2010 team. I guess I should have seen that coming.

Lance Thomas improved as much as anyone in his career. His senior year he was the best defender on the team and he could guard the 1-4 positions very well. He even began to hit a few mid-range jumpers. As for Zoubs, he was tremendous the last part of that season. He blocked shots and was great at offensive rebounding. If memory serves me correctly, he was really good at getting the offensive board and kicking it out for 3s. Now remember, this is all from this old memory bank, which ain't what it used to be. :cool: GoDuke!

[Lar77]

To me, one of the worst years was 2010. The constant criticism of Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek and how they should both be benched immediately so we wouldn't be playing "three on five" on offense. How Jon Scheyer might have good stats but the team couldn't win without a "real" point guard. How Coach K couldn't recruit anymore. How we just didn't have enough NBA players to be a championship team. I remember at the Final Four thinking how sweet it was to win after all that negativity all season and maybe the win would finally put all the negative Nellies in their place.

Now, of course, the team's problem is it isn't exactly like the 2010 team. I guess I should have seen that coming.

But don't you remember? We won only because the NCAA fixed it so we would avoid all the tough teams.

[English]

...That's what I think people here want to see. It's been the exception, not the rule, that we build a working margin of 10-15 and then expand it. And that's before substitutions, etc. Anyway, a convincing win over a good team when we build lead and don't hang on by our fingernails would be helpful - until the next game when we go on a 7 minute scoring drought and play a team with less talent but more experience in a +/- 3 point contest...

It may just be my eye test playing tricks on me, because I haven't done an empirical analysis of game flow, but there seems to be a very prevalent in-game trend for this team this season (roughly):
First third: Play well, move the ball, build a comfortable double-digit lead, look the part of the more talented team on the court
Second Third: Go away from what built the lead (start taking more long jumpers or run stagnant post-up plays), play more individual ball, more zero- or one-pass possessions, stale offense negatively impacts defense--lose the double digit lead, go down comfortably by high single- or double-digits
Last Third: Use the talent surplus and intensity (or whatever) to get a few stops and run efficient offense to catch up, frequently taking a small lead or closing to a one or two possession deficit...either win a close game or lose a close game.

End scene. Cue the reaction.

[elvis14]

Lots of examples posted about times when the board was tough on players or teams. Right now, that's not the problem. There's nothing wrong with reasonable criticism of a player or team. There's nothing wrong with frank discussions about shortcomings or the frustrations of having OAD players and a defense they can't play. Right now, it's not just being tough on the team, the tone between posters is just not good. Sometimes I'm reading a thread and it's like little kids in an argument where each feels like they have to get in the last word (and thus the argument goes on too long and gets unreasonable). If you want an example, go read the 'discussion' of the Kyrie trade in the NBA thread.

Of course people being too hard on the team or players is often the root cause of the issue but somewhere along the lines someone has to be the bigger person and just let it go!

[OldPhiKap]

Lots of examples posted about times when the board was tough on players or teams. Right now, that's not the problem. There's nothing wrong with reasonable criticism of a player or team. There's nothing wrong with frank discussions about shortcomings or the frustrations of having OAD players and a defense they can't play. Right now, it's not just being tough on the team, the tone between posters is just not good. Sometimes I'm reading a thread and it's like little kids in an argument where each feels like they have to get in the last word (and thus the argument goes on too long and gets unreasonable). If you want an example, go read the 'discussion' of the Kyrie trade in the NBA thread.

Of course people being too hard on the team or players is often the root cause of the issue but somewhere along the lines someone has to be the bigger person and just let it go!

Agreed. Although I would note that this is a cultural trend generally, not just on this board. Our level of discourse on most matters has degraded significantly over recent times, and tolerance for dissenting opinions has frayed. Everyone can pick their own reason for it; I say it is the Balkinization of news and opinions that inhibit civil cross-view debate.

Anyone who disagrees with me, of course, is a wanker.

[sagegrouse]

I don't even know how long I've been reading and posting on DBR (around 20 years now) but in regards to the bolded section above: Mtn.Devil is right. I don't know if it's just a sign of the times but DBR is not super friendly right now. It's still my favorite place to talk Duke hoops but I haven't looked around for a long time. I joined a few Facebook pages that discuss the team and they are downright awful and full of idiots. The discourse here on DBR is not as polite as it used to be and I swear if I see one more condescending post where someone claims an opinion is false because they don't have some obscure stat to back it up...

One thing to always remember, that I think gets forgotten around here: if you must attack, attack the subject being posted, not the poster.
Of course, don't come on here and expect to get instant respect. It's earned here just like everywhere else. That's just life.
Listen to Herm Edwards and "Don't hit send". I can't count how many replies I've typed and then just dumped.

Hope everyone has a great day.

Rule #1: Remember the Board is a conversation -- you WANT the other person to respond. Strong opinions are OK but, best administered with a light touch.

No, I do not always follow rule #1, but I should.

[duketaylor]

Agreed. Although I would note that this is a cultural trend generally, not just on this board. Our level of discourse on most matters has degraded significantly over recent times, and tolerance for dissenting opinions has frayed. Everyone can pick their own reason for it; I say it is the Balkinization of news and opinions that inhibit civil cross-view debate.

Anyone who disagrees with me, of course, is a wanker.

At least it will largely disappear by mid-April, only to ramp up again by late November:rolleyes:

[CDu]

Agreed. Although I would note that this is a cultural trend generally, not just on this board. Our level of discourse on most matters has degraded significantly over recent times, and tolerance for dissenting opinions has frayed. Everyone can pick their own reason for it; I say it is the Balkinization of news and opinions that inhibit civil cross-view debate.

Anyone who disagrees with me, of course, is a wanker.

I'm not sure that tolerance for dissenting opinions has frayed. I suspect people have always disliked dissenting opinions. It's just that we now have a lot more access to dissenting opinions via the proliferation of social media.

[Lar77]

It may just be my eye test playing tricks on me, because I haven't done an empirical analysis of game flow, but there seems to be a very prevalent in-game trend for this team this season (roughly):
First third: Play well, move the ball, build a comfortable double-digit lead, look the part of the more talented team on the court
Second Third: Go away from what built the lead (start taking more long jumpers or run stagnant post-up plays), play more individual ball, more zero- or one-pass possessions, stale offense negatively impacts defense--lose the double digit lead, go down comfortably by high single- or double-digits
Last Third: Use the talent surplus and intensity (or whatever) to get a few stops and run efficient offense to catch up, frequently taking a small lead or closing to a one or two possession deficit...either win a close game or lose a close game.

End scene. Cue the reaction.

Sounds like a more talented team that follows the game plan to build up a lead and has trouble adjusting to the other team's reaction during the flow of the game.

We have great players, but everyone in the ACC has top level D1 players and coaches who will make adjustments. It becomes frustrating to watch at times, but this is who we are. We are learning to make adjustments on the fly. I just hope we get to where we need to be by the end of the season.

[Saratoga2]

Sounds like a more talented team that follows the game plan to build up a lead and has trouble adjusting to the other team's reaction during the flow of the game.

We have great players, but everyone in the ACC has top level D1 players and coaches who will make adjustments. It becomes frustrating to watch at times, but this is who we are. We are learning to make adjustments on the fly. I just hope we get to where we need to be by the end of the season.

To me the pattern looked similar but there were significant differences in our personnel. We got the lead with a superior offense and a stingy defense. Grayson led the show and we were missing MBIII. Gary was quiet at first but came on stronly as the half wore on.

I thought we slowed appreciably when Trevon came in during the first half. In the second half we got into the forced passes to the post and sort of a haphazard offense with a lot less ball movement and drives into the crowded basket area all too often. Bad offense led to easy scores by GT. I didn't feel we ever righted the ship but with a big lead, we were able to use FT shooting to keep a safe lead.

My takeaway is that Grayson and Trevon together, haven't learned how to run the team effectively. Both are talented but together they don't enhance the other's game. I would bet the coaches also see that and are trying to get the guys to work better together. We need Trevon to win, so I feel it is critical to get them to optimize their playing relationship.

[devildeac]

at least it will largely disappear by mid-april, only to ramp up again by late april:rolleyes:

fify

;)

[jv001]

To me the pattern looked similar but there were significant differences in our personnel. We got the lead with a superior offense and a stingy defense. Grayson led the show and we were missing MBIII. Gary was quiet at first but came on stronly as the half wore on.

I thought we slowed appreciably when Trevon came in during the first half. In the second half we got into the forced passes to the post and sort of a haphazard offense with a lot less ball movement and drives into the crowded basket area all too often. Bad offense led to easy scores by GT. I didn't feel we ever righted the ship but with a big lead, we were able to use FT shooting to keep a safe lead.

My takeaway is that Grayson and Trevon together, haven't learned how to run the team effectively. Both are talented but together they don't enhance the other's game. I would bet the coaches also see that and are trying to get the guys to work better together. We need Trevon to win, so I feel it is critical to get them to optimize their playing relationship.

I agree on Grayson and Trevon playing together. The duo worked well together in the Michigan State game, with Grayson giving Duval credit for his good game. Marvin being out for most of the game kept the lane cleared out for both to drive and kick. Michigan State has a good defense, so, it didn't happen against the Lexington YMCA team. You are also correct about forcing passes into the post. We have turned the ball over too many times trying to throw the ball into a well covered big guy. GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

Lance Thomas improved as much as anyone in his career. His senior year he was the best defender on the team and he could guard the 1-4 positions very well. He even began to hit a few mid-range jumpers. As for Zoubs, he was tremendous the last part of that season. He blocked shots and was great at offensive rebounding. If memory serves me correctly, he was really good at getting the offensive board and kicking it out for 3s. Now remember, this is all from this old memory bank, which ain't what it used to be. :cool: GoDuke!

Yah, that was my point. Despite the fact that both Lance and Z played well, really all season, on this board they were skewered on a regular basis.


My takeaway is that Grayson and Trevon together, haven't learned how to run the team effectively.

Tech's 15-2 run was fueled by two missed Duke layups, a missed five-footer, two missed jumpers by Gary, and two turnovers by our one of our big men attempting to pass to the other. Hard to pin any of those mishaps on Grayson and Trevon not being able to run the team effectively.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I agree on Grayson and Trevon playing together. The duo worked well together in the Michigan State game, with Grayson giving Duval credit for his good game. Marvin being out for most of the game kept the lane cleared out for both to drive and kick. Michigan State has a good defense, so, it didn't happen against the Lexington YMCA team. You are also correct about forcing passes into the post. We have turned the ball over too many times trying to throw the ball into a well covered big guy. GoDuke!

I remember the post game interview well....the floor reporter asked Grayson "what was working for you tonight?" - and he quickly said "Trayvon....Travyon is what was working for me tonight." I thought that was a great answer, and an accurate one.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Well, yes. That and sporks. :)

Look, you seem to be a big fan and that's great. So is everyone else on here. But I will admit that I do look askance at anyone who comes in and immediately starts making waves.

.

Making waves?????? Sheesh. I was trying to calm the waves....I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing was someone else's word, not mine, my contention was that there wasn't much of that happening. And you say I was making waves???

[uh_no]

Yah, that was my point. Despite the fact that both Lance and Z played well, really all season, on this board they were skewered on a regular basis.

7.4 fouls per 40 is a really bad number...like among the worst in the country bad. And given he cleaned that up in the second half of the season, it must have been even worse for the first half. I can't find game stats quickly, so I didn't do the calculation.

Part of playing well is staying on the floor, and Z didn't do that until the last 15 or so games of his career. No argument that his minutes on the floor were productive, though...there just weren't enough of them.

[sagegrouse]

7.4 fouls per 40 is a really bad number...like among the worst in the country bad. .

How about 8.23 per 40 minutes?

[Kedsy]

7.4 fouls per 40 is a really bad number...like among the worst in the country bad. And given he cleaned that up in the second half of the season, it must have been even worse for the first half. I can't find game stats quickly, so I didn't do the calculation.

Yeah, but that's not why people were criticizing him for the first 60% of the 2009-10 season. A lot of people around here were saying he didn't belong on the floor at all. It was unjust criticism, often said in an unkind way. My point is it's not a new phenomenon.

[Acymetric]

Yah, that was my point. Despite the fact that both Lance and Z played well, really all season, on this board they were skewered on a regular basis.

There have been a lot of comments like this recently referencing negative fan reactions to various past years, and here is the problem I see with it.

In a given year, some posters will criticize player x, some will criticize player y, some will criticize player z, some will criticize 2 of the 3, some all 3, and some the whole team.

The problem with these "what people were saying then" posts is that in hindsight all of these criticisms get grouped together so it seems like the criticism of any one given player is magnified more than it actually was (any discussion criticizing any one player is now recalled as part of the general criticism of all those players). I think comparing someone criticizing (or, to use less inflammatory language, pointing out real flaws in) a player now with that amalgamation of player criticism from years gone by lacks context, accuracy, and usefulness. A possible exception if it was similar criticism by the same poster, but even then I'm not sure I see it.

Invoking criticism of Jon Scheyer by one person (or many people) to respond to a completely separate person's criticism of Trevon Duval just doesn't hold water to me and I'm not sure why others feel the need to do it constantly in these discussions.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Making waves?????? Sheesh. I was trying to calm the waves...I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing was someone else's word, not mine, my contention was that there wasn't much of that happening. And you say I was making waves???

Have fun! Go Duke!