MBB: Cheaters 82, Duke 78 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here. Remember - no venting or bashing of Duke players or staff will be allowed.

[fuse]

Scratching my head.

Tale of two halves.

[DukieInKansas]

Rats!

[duke79]

UGH.........Double UGH!

[flyingdutchdevil]

Guess they lived today.

Wanted to see more heart.

Sigh...

[WHOneedsSOX]

Very winnable game lost due to poor effort and execution in the 2nd half.

[jipops]

That was a pretty low brand of basketball on both sides. I'll go find an nba game now.

At halftime I posted that the first few minutes of the 2nd would be key. I think we lost the game right there.

[Wander]

Wanted to see more heart.


There was absolutely no problem with heart, effort, or any of that stuff.

We do, however, have a big problem at point guard and in the backcourt defensively in general. Not sure what the solution is.

[rsvman]

Sad.
They got five points in the last two minutes that they shouldn't have had. Walking under the basket prior to the three. And Berry grabbing Grayson's arm resulting in two free throws.

[duke79]

That was a pretty low brand of basketball on both sides. I'll go find an nba game now.

At halftime I posted that the first few minutes of the 2nd would be key. I think we lost the game right there.

Yea, it seemed like BOTH teams missed many shots that SHOULD have been made!

[ncexnyc]

I'm not sure we can continue blaming these losses on our youth. It appears that we might have a serious shortage of basketball IQ.

[gocanes0506]

Another winnable game with very little execution when needed.

Went away from the inside.
Turned it over
Didn’t get back
Couldn’t make when we needed and they couldn’t miss
Really missed many calls but it isn’t first on my list

One positive was the bench scoring

Should be easy win in Durham. If I use the UK model as a reference, we’ll see this team hopefully pull it together come tournament time. Need better gaurd play if we are going to go anywhere.

[CDu]

They won the game the only way they were going to win it: shooting 3s, drives by Berry, scrapping for rebounds and loose balls. Kudos to them.

Our team still has a fair amount of work to do.

[Kfanarmy]

Might want to show up for the entire game one of these days.

I don't think this D is going to get there.

[CameronDuke]

I just cannot figure out this Duke team. Duke collectively is an enigma this year.

How many losses did UConn have when they won the national title in 2014? I'm assuming that's the most losses for a national champion ever? If not, who won the national championship in NCAA history with the most losses in the "modern" era (1980 to now)? 5 losses and counting for Duke now. I know Duke lost 5 in 2015 and won it all and 5 in 2010 and won it all. Duke can still go on a run in March but I'd be utterly shocked if Duke won out from here.

If Duke can get Marques and O'Connell to play like they did tonight the remainder of the year they'll be in better shape hopefully.

[Dub]

Definitely a disappointing 2nd half. We had a 12 point lead early on but have very low defensive awareness on when to/not to switch. We gave up too many open 3s and didn’t play particularly well in a very physical game. IMO, the X factor to our success is Tre Duval. He’s the only one who can create off the dribble which opens up the bigs for lobs or kick outs for 3s.

OAN, the in-game thread was terrible as always. I think I’m officially done with it. Anyway - still a long way to go and everyone including UVA will lose another game or two. I hope we can get it together in time for a tourney run. We have the pieces but do we have the mentality. Guess we’ll see.

[Oriole Way]

I was astounded by how poorly Duval played, and even more astounded Coach K kept him in so long before he fouled out. Really costly turnovers and a couple bad jump shots by Duval.

The defense was awful again tonight, that's the ultimate problem for this team. We didn't turn the ball over aside from Duval, and we hit our free throws. Defense is the key to whether this team can meet its potential.

I think zoning this Carolina team was poor coaching by K. They have too many shooters who shoot the three well and they feasted on wide open shots.

[flyingdutchdevil]

There was absolutely no problem with heart, effort, or any of that stuff.

We do, however, have a big problem at point guard and in the backcourt defensively in general. Not sure what the solution is.

I refuse to blame Duval. He's been just as good - or bad - as a lot of other starters. But our general defensive effort is awful.

And I absolutely believe heart was an issue.

[Chard]

Frequent mental lapses, terrible defense, poor choices on offense. Not much progress being made. Just not seeing it. Same freshman mistakes showing up.

Bolden was great though.

[jv001]

The Cheats have a true point guard that can handle their offense. Berry is one of the best point guards to play for the cheats and he seems to be an ok guy. I still hate that cheating program though. As for our defense, I don't know if it was better the last 5 or 6 minutes or was it they just missed open shots. However their offensive rebounds killed us, well that's the eye test because I've not seen the game stats. GoDuke!

[toughbuff1]

On the plus side, we limited our turnovers and only missed 3 free throws. On the negative, we only forced 2 turnovers, and gave up 20 offensive rebounds, both of which are hard to overcome.

[barjwr]

In the first half, I thought Grayson was finally going to get off the Schneid after hitting a couple of shots. Then he has to run the damn offense all second half because Duval is absent after very questionable calls. And we can't get the ball to our 6'11" POY candidate on the block. And our lineup of 6'10"/6'11"/6'11" can't get an defensive rebound.

What a disappointing ending to a game that showed such early promise.

[dyedwab]

I'm not sure we can continue blaming these losses on our youth. It appears that we might have a serious shortage of basketball IQ.

Yeah, this is not a smart team. The number of unforced errors on both ends of the court are kind of unfathomable. This team is really hard to watch....

....And no matter how great Coach K is, I don't have faith that what's wrong with these guys is fixable.

[Ian]

I posted this before the game

"I think the script is going to be pretty easy to predict for this one. We will come out on fire, probably get an early 10 point lead of say 26-16, then the ADD kicks in as the team start to think the game is in hand, followed by sloppy turnovers and inattention on d, leading to an inability to pull away and letting UNC hang around. Probably end the first half with a slim lead of 42-38. Then the 2nd half starts and the sloppiness continues, meanwhile the other team get their act together and puts together a run and with 10 minutes left we're down 64-54.

At which point the team wakes up and makes a run, takes a 73-71 lead with about 4 minutes left. Honestly I'm not sure how it ends but I'm pretty sure that's how the first 36 will go."


So it's exactly what I expected, and the same problem as last game, just cannot grab a defensive rebound and really bad turnovers in key possessions.

[Kfanarmy]

Grayson throws the ball away again. Really bad play.

[barjwr]

I just cannot figure out this Duke team. Duke collectively is an enigma this year.

How many losses did UConn have when they won the national title in 2014? I'm assuming that's the most losses for a national champion ever? If not, who won the national championship in NCAA history with the most losses in the "modern" era (1980 to now)? 5 losses and counting for Duke now. I know Duke lost 5 in 2015 and won it all and 5 in 2010 and won it all. Duke can still go on a run in March but I'd be utterly shocked if Duke won out from here.

If Duke can get Marques and O'Connell to play like they did tonight the remainder of the year they'll be in better shape hopefully.

Kansas had 11 losses in 1988 with Danny Manning.

[proelitedota]

Home cooking won this game. I'll be worried if we lose in Cameron. Let's hope we have the friendlier whistle.

[eddiehaskell]

Kenny Williams beat Duke. Might want to guard him.

Edit: and why does UNC outrebound us? Are their players just hungrier?

[ScreechTDX1847]

Just not a really good Duke team. Watching four freshman play is tough sometimes. Duval's end of game decision making and play have been very costly in the last month.

[CoachJ10]

The strange part to me is the lack of emotions.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

No surprise. No comment.
Love, Ima

[arnie]

Absolutely killed on the boards in 2nd half and would not get back quickly to defend the break. We were out hustled again. Not sure those issues are so easily fixed.

[Devilwin]

The only positive I saw was the play of Bolden and O'Connell. Everything else was putrid. Still no defense. Got out rebounded. And made lots of dumb turn overs (again).
Just don't get it at all. This bunch is making being a Duke fan tough...Looks like we are heading for the middle of the ACC pack again.

[Bluegrassdevil1]

The strange part to me is the lack of emotions.

Yes!!!!

It is bizarre.

[ipatent]

20-11 UNC edge on the offensive boards did us in. A lot of them just fortuitous bounces.

[BigZ]

Hard to blame it on youth when your Senior gets worse by the game

[WHOneedsSOX]

North Carolina got the shot they wanted in the second half. Duke took the shot North Carolina gave them in the second half. Difference between the two teams defenses.

[dyedwab]

The strange part to me is the lack of emotions.

I don't have that feel yet, but I know what you mean. Watching this team is fraying my bond with Duke basketball. I guess I'm in mourning for that.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Don't kill me for saying it, but Bags hasn't been overly aggressive the last couple games. Duval had a couple bad plays, but he's not to blame for this loss.

[DangerDevil]

Grayson throws the ball away again. Really bad play.

After taking entirely too long to even initiate the play with time running out.

This team and this season perplex me.

[jipops]

I think most all the problems on this team are fixable. Unfortunately it would likely require another year together to accomplish this.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Better team won. :(

[84Duke]

I just cannot figure out this Duke team. Duke collectively is an enigma this year.

How many losses did UConn have when they won the national title in 2014? I'm assuming that's the most losses for a national champion ever? If not, who won the national championship in NCAA history with the most losses in the "modern" era (1980 to now)? 5 losses and counting for Duke now. I know Duke lost 5 in 2015 and won it all and 5 in 2010 and won it all. Duke can still go on a run in March but I'd be utterly shocked if Duke won out from here.

If Duke can get Marques and O'Connell to play like they did tonight the remainder of the year they'll be in better shape hopefully.

It’s not an enigma. A top 5 team plays like a top 100 team far too often. And the only people who seem to see it coming are not on the floor.

[CoachJ10]

Listening to Bilas explain that Berry holding Grayson’s arm was a foul on Grayson is my tap out moment on Jay. When you go that far to distort the truth, I cant respect you anymore.

[Kfanarmy]

Home cooking won this game. I'll be worried if we lose in Cameron. Let's hope we have the friendlier whistle.

I thought it was pretty well officiated. Carolina didn't foul much...they didn't have to in the second half as Duke didn't get the ball inside nearly as much and couldn't hit anything for the first 10 minutes in any case. No killers on the floor for Duke.

[cbarry]

First half was pretty darn bad for us. We GAVE up a 12-point lead, lost every loose ball, could NOT defend the 3, and were generally outhustled. I knew we were toast. Second half was even worse than the first.


Scratching my head.

Tale of two halves.

[barjwr]

Listening to Bilas explain that Berry holding Grayson’s arm was a foul on Grayson is my tap out moment on Jay. When you go that far to distort the truth, I cant respect you anymore.

I'm impressed on your perseverance on Jay. I quit quite a while ago, like when he refused to say anything negative about the cheats throughout the scandal.

[Wander]

I refuse to blame Duval. He's been just as good - or bad - as a lot of other starters. But our general defensive effort is awful.

And I absolutely believe heart was an issue.

That's way too generic. Without Bagley's defensive effort in the last 8 minutes, we lose by 20.

I just don't see any evidence that "heart" was an issue in this game. The biggest issue to me was that UNC prevented us from getting good post touches in the 2nd half, which is largely (but not entirely) due to Duval's weaknesses.

[AtlDuke72]

Very winnable game lost due to poor effort and execution in the 2nd half.

How can you say poor effort. Your vlcomments are getting really tiresome.

[barjwr]

I thought it was pretty well officiated. Carolina didn't foul much...they didn't have to in the second half as Duke didn't get the ball inside nearly as much and couldn't hit anything for the first 10 minutes in any case. No killers on the floor for Duke.

This is a joke, right? I ran out of fingers counting the number of lowered shoulders by cheater drivers that didn't result in offensive fouls in addition to the way that Carter and Bagley were assaulted without penalty in the paint (when they finally got the ball).

[CoachJ10]

I thought it was pretty well officiated. Carolina didn't foul much...they didn't have to in the second half as Duke didn't get the ball inside nearly as much and couldn't hit anything for the first 10 minutes in any case. No killers on the floor for Duke.

There were some glaringly bad calls and non calls at key moments. We all are alwats expecting it...and our top notch ACC refs delivered as they customarily do.

[CDu]

They just played harder than us. Theo Pinson has gotten mocked by some on this board. But I would kill to have a Theo Pinson type of player on this team. The guy can’t shoot a lick, but he just makes plays.

Frustrating to get outrebounded by a smaller team. That can’t happen. Especially when we can’t shoot.

[Phoenix22]

Shots taken: 77 - 62. Says it all.

[Troublemaker]

I think zoning this Carolina team was poor coaching by K. They have too many shooters who shoot the three well and they feasted on wide open shots.

Why would changing to a zone be a bad decision when your m2m is getting strafed? I support him changing things up to see if he can hit on a solution. That's the whole point of practicing that zone!

I think we did make a mistake with the soft, lay-back, switching scheme in m2m. I think Duke plays better defense when we ball pressure and cut off sides of the court. And our bigs should not be switched onto smalls.

[Kjeffrey]

I refuse to blame Duval. He's been just as good - or bad - as a lot of other starters. But our general defensive effort is awful.

And I absolutely believe heart was an issue.

Couldn't agree more. He struggles at times but has also shown stretches of great play. I don't think he is any more responsible for this team's losses than the rest of the team. They struggle on defense and seem lost on screens, not only tonight, but in several other games. The PnR has been a major problem too.

I would like to see more of AOC because I think he has a great upside. I can't help but wonder if some bench time might help with what, at times, seems to be a lack of heart or engagement. I am not saying the starters don't care but their minutes seem almost guaranteed regardless of their on court performance.

[CameronDuke]

Kansas had 11 losses in 1988 with Danny Manning.

Thank you. That gives me hope. 5 losses ain't too bad for Duke right now but still have two with Virginia Tech, at Clemson, vs UNC, and vs Louisville. Likely 1-2 more losses if Duke doesn't make some drastic strides defensively.

Duke really doesn't have too many "good" wins right now either. Michigan State on a neutral site in November was ok and at Miami was good - other than that? I don't see many. Maybe beating FSU at home 100-93? Duke is definitely an enigma this year. Just cannot figure them out.

[Chicken Little]

The sky is falling.

Leave the starters in Durham for the GT game. Time for a major shakeup for the emotionless.

[ncexnyc]

Listening to Bilas explain that Berry holding Grayson’s arm was a foul on Grayson is my tap out moment on Jay. When you go that far to distort the truth, I cant respect you anymore.
Well the clown from the ACC Network wasn't much better. When we attempted to tie up the Heel who was on the floor he made some dumb comment like, "This isn't football." Yet, when Javin reaches in to tie up the ball at the end of the game he gets the quick whistle. I saw Miami do that very same play against the Cards and the refs let Walker rip the ball away from McMahon.

[Oriole Way]

Don't kill me for saying it, but Bags hasn't been overly aggressive the last couple games. Duval had a couple bad plays, but he's not to blame for this loss.

Duval turned it over 4 times in limited minutes and each one of those turnovers was costly. Plus at least a couple of very poor jumpers that were almost the same thing as turnovers. I thought his play was the second biggest reason for the loss tonight - after the perimeter defense. A lot of the offensive rebounds we gave up were just random bad bounces that could have gone either way.

[WHOneedsSOX]

How can you say poor effort. Your vlcomments are getting really tiresome.

Did you not see all the offensive rebounds they got at the end of the game?
Skip my comments if you don't like them. Why torture yourself reading them?

[CDu]

That's way too generic. Without Bagley's defensive effort in the last 8 minutes, we lose by 20.

I just don't see any evidence that "heart" was an issue in this game. The biggest issue to me was that UNC prevented us from getting good post touches in the 2nd half, which is largely (but not entirely) due to Duval's weaknesses.

It was also because UNC worked their butts off to make it difficult. And crammed the lane with bodies.

They got 20 offensive rebounds.

I don’t think we lacked heart. We played hard. But they played harder than us.

[flyingdutchdevil]

They just played harder than us. Theo Pinson has gotten mocked by some on this board. But I would kill to have a Theo Pinson type of player on this team. The guy can’t shoot a lick, but he just makes plays.

Frustrating to get outrebounded by a smaller team. That can’t happen. Especially when we can’t shoot.

UNC is filled with glue guys. Duke just doesn't have a protypical glue guy this year. There isn't a Matt Jones or Amile Jefferson-type player.

Also, Pinson is a phenomenal defender. Duke doesn't even have a really good defensive player.

[Rich]

Thank you. That gives me hope. 5 losses ain't too bad for Duke right now but still have two with Virginia Tech, at Clemson, vs UNC, and vs Louisville. Likely 1-2 more losses if Duke doesn't make some drastic strides defensively.

Duke really doesn't have too many "good" wins right now either. Michigan State on a neutral site in November was ok and at Miami was good - other than that? I don't see many. Maybe beating FSU at home 100-93? Duke is definitely an enigma this year. Just cannot figure them out.

I'm not saying it's over, but Danny Manning ain't walking through that door. He was a senior that could take over a game by himself. We don't have one of those guys.

[CameronBornAndBred]

They just played harder than us. Theo Pinson has gotten mocked by some on this board. But I would kill to have a Theo Pinson type of player on this team. The guy can’t shoot a lick, but he just makes plays.

Frustrating to get outrebounded by a smaller team. That can’t happen. Especially when we can’t shoot.

The ONE good comment from Jay came when we went with the big lineup of Bags, Carter and Bolden. He said it was a bad idea because we'd get beaten easily in transition. Bet he didn't expect us to get outrebounded, too. But, it happened. Sigh. Also frustrating to see those bigs (looking at you Carter) take threes when they could be inside slamming down dunks. Yes, he made a couple...but he's high percentage inside.

[cbarry]

Listening to Bilas explain that Berry holding Grayson’s arm was a foul on Grayson is my tap out moment on Jay. When you go that far to distort the truth, I cant respect you anymore.
I think many, if not most, of the Duke community tapped out on Bilas long ago. He’s a Carolina homer at heart. Not to mention, he was 100% behind UNCheat in their fraud scandal.

[CoachJ10]

It was also because UNC worked their butts off to make it difficult. And crammed the lane with bodies.

They got 20 offensive rebounds.

I don’t think we lacked heart. We played hard. But they played harder than us.

And we didnt respond to that by driving. Grayson and Trent needed to drive when unc was making it difficult to get the ball inside. I was surprised that Coach didnt instruct them to do so.

[Saratoga2]

Another loss where our opponents seem to be on fire from the 3. Surely there is a cause for that and we should be able to get out on their shooters. Once they started to drive aginst us, we seemed to have no way to stop them. Were our players tired from the running? Our PG situation leaves a lot to be desired. Duval makes a lot of mistakes and really Allen can be a little reckless at times as well. They are our horses and we have to ride them, but a better performance would help. Duke often has a swoon at the beginning of the second half and dig themselves a hole that is difficult to climb out of. Same thing tonight.

I thought our rebounding went silent in the second half where we got beaten to the ball over and over again. That certainly proved to be our downfall. Some posters here like to look at the number of shots by each team. The team with the is in the best position to win. In the second half Duke had to have taken less shots than UNC.

On the plus side, Bolden gave us very good minutes as did O'Connell. In O'Connell's case, I would like to see him keep a hand up when he defends (similar to the way UVA guards). Right now he keeps both hands down and that gives his opponent an advantage. Our high low with bigs was working well for most of the game. Lots of capability on this team but lots of weak areas as well. Can't be terribly optimistic about either a high seed or a long run in the tourney.

[AvlDukie]

They just played harder than us. Theo Pinson has gotten mocked by some on this board. But I would kill to have a Theo Pinson type of player on this team. The guy can’t shoot a lick, but he just makes plays.

Frustrating to get outrebounded by a smaller team. That can’t happen. Especially when we can’t shoot.

Could not agree with this post more.
And please do not blame this loss on the refs - we were just outplayed by an experienced team that seemed to want it just a little bit more.
Still time to figure it out, but K has his work cut out for him with this group, for sure.

[eddiehaskell]

Well the clown from the ACC Network wasn't much better. When we attempted to tie up the Heel who was on the floor he made some dumb comment like, "This isn't football." Yet, when Javin reaches in to tie up the ball at the end of the game he gets the quick whistle. I saw Miami do that very same play against the Cards and the refs let Walker rip the ball away from McMahon.That ball could’ve been tied up without Duval jumping in like that.

[CDu]

Another loss where our opponents seem to be on fire from the 3. Surely there is a cause for that and we should be able to get out on their shooters. Once they started to drive aginst us, we seemed to have no way to stop them. Were our players tired from the running? Our PG situation leaves a lot to be desired. Duval makes a lot of mistakes and really Allen can be a little reckless at times as well. They are our horses and we have to ride them, but a better performance would help. Duke often has a swoon at the beginning of the second half and dig themselves a hole that is difficult to climb out of. Same thing tonight.

I thought our rebounding went silent in the second half where we got beaten to the ball over and over again. That certainly proved to be our downfall. Some posters here like to look at the number of shots by each team. The team with the is in the best position to win. In the second half Duke had to have taken less shots than UNC.

On the plus side, Bolden gave us very good minutes as did O'Connell. In O'Connell's case, I would like to see him keep a hand up when he defends (similar to the way UVA guards). Right now he keeps both hands down and that gives his opponent an advantage. Our high low with bigs was working well for most of the game. Lots of capability on this team but lots of weak areas as well. Can't be terribly optimistic about either a high seed or a long run in the tourney.

UNC was 11-33 on 3s. They weren’t actually on fire from 3. They shot below their average.

[dudog84]

Just not a really good Duke team. Watching four freshman play is tough sometimes. Duval's end of game decision making and play have been very costly in the last month.

Might as well get used to that for the next few years. Got no advice on how to stomach it.

[Oriole Way]

Another loss where our opponents seem to be on fire from the 3. Surely there is a cause for that and we should be able to get out on their shooters. Once they started to drive aginst us, we seemed to have no way to stop them. Were our players tired from the running? Our PG situation leaves a lot to be desired. Duval makes a lot of mistakes and really Allen can be a little reckless at times as well. They are our horses and we have to ride them, but a better performance would help. Duke often has a swoon at the beginning of the second half and dig themselves a hole that is difficult to climb out of. Same thing tonight.

I thought our rebounding went silent in the second half where we got beaten to the ball over and over again. That certainly proved to be our downfall. Some posters here like to look at the number of shots by each team. The team with the is in the best position to win. In the second half Duke had to have taken less shots than UNC.

On the plus side, Bolden gave us very good minutes as did O'Connell. In O'Connell's case, I would like to see him keep a hand up when he defends (similar to the way UVA guards). Right now he keeps both hands down and that gives his opponent an advantage. Our high low with bigs was working well for most of the game. Lots of capability on this team but lots of weak areas as well. Can't be terribly optimistic about either a high seed or a long run in the tourney.

I noticed that tonight as well, and hopefully that's an easy fix for him.

[jipops]

This was exactly the same team that showed up Saturday. If you can't get up for the big publicized rivalry game, what game are you going to get up for? Sure the last two have been bad teams, but today was still a hyped one.

High screen and roll for the layup drill again.

[Wander]

Also frustrating to see those bigs (looking at you Carter) take threes when they could be inside slamming down dunks. Yes, he made a couple...but he's high percentage inside.

Carter made 2-3 threes, so can't really blame him for those shots.

It's not trivial to pass the ball into the post. UNC guarded that well in the 2nd half, and we couldn't shake them off of that. I think the fault there lies mostly with the guards, not Carter and Bagley.

[WiJoe]

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Duke may wear Duke across its chest, but this isn't the Duke that college basketball has known for the last 30 years. Blue Devils are not connected. Not a team.


bingo. Nobody could say it better. Total truth.

[elvis14]

Really hard to stay positive since this was a repeat of the St. Johns game. No real reason to lose this game. We are a match up nightmare for those cheaters...execept that we have multiple guys that are completely lost on defense and it's killing us.

Not sure what happened to Carter tonight. Bolden played really well, especially in the first half.

The bad call on Maye's 3rd foul was huge, especially since GA was hurt on the play.

I'm trying to remind myself that we need to play the tournaments well but we are running out of time.

We have to pull away better in the first half of games. When we got up by 7 and then never expanded on that I knew I was watching Saturday's game all over.

Oh well. Maybe they'll figure it out, maybe they won't. I'm ready for more experienced players again. I hate that we have to choose between talented players or dedicated players. Watched Zion play tonight....he played no defense and went for something like 30 and 14 (Marvin 2.0).

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Great team effort by UNC to overcome the talent and length that Duke showed inside. Experience and team balance was big in this one.

The player of the game to me was Kenny Williams. Not only because of his great shooting night, but the defensive effort he had on Trent. Duke was dominant inside but never found balance from outside. I credit Williams D on Trent and Berry's D on Grayson for that.

Berry was Berry, a clutch, hard working, great college point guard and leader..

Cam Johnson and Maye quietly had really good games as well. I was particularly impressed with Johnson's effort and work inside. He's alway been more of a wing player but he stepped up tonight and got after it in the paint.

I was surprised that UNC didn't drive it early and settled for jumpers, but as the game went on they became much more aggressive...and it was effective.

I thought both teams played at a high level. They all left it on the floor. Fun game to watch.

[heyman25]

I'm impressed on your perseverance on Jay. I quit quite a while ago, like when he refused to say anything negative about the cheats throughout the scandal.
Never had high expectations from an attorney.It is their job to twist the facts to win their case. Jay Bilas though is much better than obnoxious Bill Walton who is on the air now. I know that is not sayng much.

[DUKIE V(A)]

I am frustrated but not giving up. The ACC and NCAA tournies are going to be wide open. Just got to get hot and fortunate at the right time. Both are there for the taking for somebody.

[left_hook_lacey]

The ONE good comment from Jay came when we went with the big lineup of Bags, Carter and Bolden. He said it was a bad idea because we'd get beaten easily in transition. Bet he didn't expect us to get outrebounded, too. But, it happened. Sigh. Also frustrating to see those bigs (looking at you Carter) take threes when they could be inside slamming down dunks. Yes, he made a couple...but he's high percentage inside.

But that doesn't showcase him as a triple threat for the NBA like we promised.

[elvis14]

Carter made 2-3 threes, so can't really blame him for those shots.

It's not trivial to pass the ball into the post. UNC guarded that well in the 2nd half, and we couldn't shake them off of that. I think the fault there lies mostly with the guards, not Carter and Bagley.

The problem is that we try to post with a single pass and we stop the ball and hesitate 8 times before we try to make the pass.
Instead, post up on the weak side, swing and then make an entry pass with no hesitation.

[CDu]

Carter made 2-3 threes, so can't really blame him for those shots.

It's not trivial to pass the ball into the post. UNC guarded that well in the 2nd half, and we couldn't shake them off of that. I think the fault there lies mostly with the guards, not Carter and Bagley.

Yeah, Carter shooting 3s was actually our most effective offense.

UNC fought to prevent entry passes valiantly too. And we aren’t great at throwing them.

[Devilwin]

How can you say poor effort. Your vlcomments are getting really tiresome.

Getting beat on the boards like we did, taking bad shots, and critical mistakes on defense seems to me to be effort related. I said once no way we lose to UNC. But I was wrong. They out hustled us all game long. This team is hard to fathom. Heading out after this year so why should they care? It's obvious that UNC's experience was the key tonight. I say the poster was absolutely correct in his assumption.

[Steven43]

I posted this before the game

"I think the script is going to be pretty easy to predict for this one. We will come out on fire, probably get an early 10 point lead of say 26-16, then the ADD kicks in as the team start to think the game is in hand, followed by sloppy turnovers and inattention on d, leading to an inability to pull away and letting UNC hang around. Probably end the first half with a slim lead of 42-38. Then the 2nd half starts and the sloppiness continues, meanwhile the other team get their act together and puts together a run and with 10 minutes left we're down 64-54.

At which point the team wakes up and makes a run, takes a 73-71 lead with about 4 minutes left. Honestly I'm not sure how it ends but I'm pretty sure that's how the first 36 will go."


So it's exactly what I expected, and the same problem as last game, just cannot grab a defensive rebound and really bad turnovers in key possessions.
Credit where it’s due. You absolutely nailed it.

[fuse]

Two things I think I think (thank you, Peter King).

First, the 3 big lineup was a bad decision.
Second, Duval fouling out with 3 minutes to go was a problem.

[6th Man]

I feel like Duke lacks what they are getting next year. Athletic wings. Trent is not an athletic wing. Guys like Winslow, Battier, Grant Hill, Brian Davis can do so much defensively and get a lot of those long rebounds Duke couldn’t grab in the second half. This team also makes terrible decisions with the ball. Duke’s titles have come with Hurley, Duhon and J-Will, Scheyer and Nolan Smith and Tyus Jones. Guys that know how to make smart plays. Defense is soooo bad. So many open shooters. Crazy collection of talent with missing pieces. Mostly the ability to play smart. Frustrating.

[duke4ever19]

Great team effort by UNC to overcome the talent and length that Duke showed inside. Experience and team balance was big in this one.

The player of the game to me was Kenny Williams. Not only because of his great shooting night, but the defensive effort he had on Trent. Duke was dominant inside but never found balance from outside. I credit Williams D on Trent and BerryY's D on Grayson for that.

Berry was Berry, a clutch, hard working, great college point guard and leader..

Cam Johnson and Maye quietly had really good games as well. I was particularly impressed with Johnson's effort and work inside. He's alway been more of a wing player but he stepped up tonight and got after it in the paint.

I was surprised that UNC didn't drive it early and settled for jumpers, but as the game went on they became much more aggressive...and it was effective.

I thought both teams played at a high level. They all left it on the floor. Fun game to watch.

So this was your first time watching this Duke team? We weren't playing on a high level.

[jv001]

Once again we let a team get back in the game in the first half which gave them confidence. There for a while I didn't think Williams or Johnson was going to miss a shot all night. But like I said up thread, the lack of defensive rebounding killed us. There's no way a team our size should let that happen. There was too many times a player jogged back down court and rather than trying to stay with his man on defense, he lazily switched.
I have to give it to old huckleberry hound, he had his guys ready to play tonight. Their 300+ defense really looked good but I think that was aided by our lack of good point guard play tonight. Well, next play. GoDuke!

[CoachJ10]

Could not agree with this post more.
And please do not blame this loss on the refs - we were just outplayed by an experienced team that seemed to want it just a little bit more.
Still time to figure it out, but K has his work cut out for him with this group, for sure.

It is not “blaming it on the refs” to point out plays were the refs were bad. Those bad calls and non calls are just as critical plays as the duval turnover or trent bad shot. Just because it was the refs screwing up, doesnt make it any less impactful. One of my personal bugaboos is people who ignore the impact that refs have in games. they are OUT there to have impacts on games.

[Furniture]

Duval turned it over 4 times in limited minutes and each one of those turnovers was costly. Plus at least a couple of very poor jumpers that were almost the same thing as turnovers. I thought his play was the second biggest reason for the loss tonight - after the perimeter defense. A lot of the offensive rebounds we gave up were just random bad bounces that could have gone either way.

According to this.
https://www.scacchoops.com/duke-at-unc-basketball-live-stats-02082018
Duval played 20 mins and was + 9...

[flyingdutchdevil]

Two things I think I think (thank you, Peter King).

First, the 3 big lineup was a bad decision.
Second, Duval fouling out with 3 minutes to go was a problem.

I thought this was a huge problem as well. Duval in crunch time is amazing.

And yes - the 3 big lineup was a horrible decision. I guess it forces Carter to shoot 3s, which isn't a terrible idea.

[flyingdutchdevil]

According to this.
https://www.scacchoops.com/duke-at-unc-basketball-live-stats-02082018
Duval played 20 mins and was + 9...

Duval is an easy scapegoat for DBR. Not as talented as Bagley, not as polished as Carter, not as a good a shooter as Trent, and not a senior like Allen.

Duval isn't the main problem in ACC play, IMO. Given, he hasn't been lights-out, but there is plenty of blame to go around.

[Rich]

First, the 3 big lineup was a bad decision.


And yes - the 3 big lineup was a horrible decision. I guess it forces Carter to shoot 3s, which isn't a terrible idea.

I felt at that point K was grasping at straws. Willing to try anything.

[CameronDuke]

Long season left. But Duke is looking more and more like a 2-3 seed. If Duke were to not lose a game until selection Sunday, then yes, at 29-5, they're maybe a 1 seed. Since now many posts I'm reading are saying Duke can redeem themselves with an ACC or NCAA Tournament run, I'll entertain it. A 1 seed is possible if Duke doesn't lose again. 26-5 would get Duke a 1 seed.

But if we're using Duke's past performances as a predictive measure to forecast how they'll do the remainder of the season? Then I see them losing twice more at least before selection Sunday if not 3 more times. That would put them at around 25-7, 24-8. A solid 2-3 seed.

Has Duke ever won the national championship as a seed other than a 1 seed? Would be cool to win it all this year from a 2-3 seed.

[wavedukefan70s]

I dunno .we didn't execute on the boards.among other things. we have more talent.im disappointed we don't seem to be able to impose our will on other teams.

[CoachJ10]

I miss a sophomore Frank Jackson.

[Kjeffrey]

UNC was 11-33 on 3s. They weren’t actually on fire from 3. They shot below their average.


I posted this before the game

"I think the script is going to be pretty easy to predict for this one. We will come out on fire, probably get an early 10 point lead of say 26-16, then the ADD kicks in as the team start to think the game is in hand, followed by sloppy turnovers and inattention on d, leading to an inability to pull away and letting UNC hang around. Probably end the first half with a slim lead of 42-38. Then the 2nd half starts and the sloppiness continues, meanwhile the other team get their act together and puts together a run and with 10 minutes left we're down 64-54.

At which point the team wakes up and makes a run, takes a 73-71 lead with about 4 minutes left. Honestly I'm not sure how it ends but I'm pretty sure that's how the first 36 will go."


So it's exactly what I expected, and the same problem as last game, just cannot grab a defensive rebound and really bad turnovers in key possessions.

When Duke let them hang around in the first half I feared we were seeing a repeat. Does that crystal ball of yours project into March and April?

[AtlDuke72]

Great team effort by UNC to overcome the talent and length that Duke showed inside. Experience and team balance was big in this one.

The player of the game to me was Kenny Williams. Not only because of his great shooting night, but the defensive effort he had on Trent. Duke was dominant inside but never found balance from outside. I credit Williams D on Trent and Berry's D on Grayson for that.

Berry was Berry, a clutch, hard working, great college point guard and leader..

Cam Johnson and Maye quietly had really good games as well. I was particularly impressed with Johnson's effort and work inside. He's alway been more of a wing player but he stepped up tonight and got after it in the paint.

I was surprised that UNC didn't drive it early and settled for jumpers, but as the game went on they became much more aggressive...and it was effective.

I thought both teams played at a high level. They all left it on the floor. Fun game to watch.

You must have been watching a different game. After reading this thread I am now convinced that Duke does not try, has no heart, would be better off without Bagley and needs a new coach. Carolina obviously had nothing to do with it.

[left_hook_lacey]

It is not “blaming it on the refs” to point out plays were the refs were bad. Those bad calls and non calls are just as critical plays as the duval turnover or trent bad shot. Just because it was the refs screwing up, doesnt make it any less impactful. One of my personal bugaboos is people who ignore the impact that refs have in games. they are OUT there to have impacts on games.

Please stop. For every bad call you cite, UNC fans would surely be able to accurately see your bad call and raise. It's a pointless exercise. There were bad calls both ways, there always will be. Just gotta do more in between nthe whistles.

[NYBri]

Never though I wouldn’t enjoy watching Duke basketball game, but this iteration is just hard to watch.

Weird.

[scottdude8]

Today showed me that this team, at this moment (this can always change), has no one with a killer instinct. Open 3s to tie the game that a Jones, Cook, Scheyer, etc. would make are going begging. Heck, Grayson from two years ago played like that: when a big time open 3 went up you felt confident it was going in. Today, and the last few weeks, no one has had provided that (think about how many solid shots we had down the stretch to tie the game or bring it back within reach, not only today but in NYC and against Virginia, that didn’t fall).

Our struggles are made all the more frustrating by the fact that, even when we objectively play poorly on the road, we still are in the game to the bitter end. If someone flips that switch and takes control and ownership of this team (*cough cough* Grayson *cough cough*) things have the potential to turn around quickly. If no one flips that switch we’re going to continue scratching our heads.

[Kjeffrey]

I miss a sophomore Frank Jackson.

And a junior Luke Kennard.

[bluenorth]

The team never seems to be completely in sync. On offense it looks like there's always at least one guy who's not sure where he should be. On defense there's always someone letting down (how many points does an opponent have to score before you know where he is at all times?). Still in the learning process, I guess. It was good to see some bodies getting on the floor late in the game, but I expect that kind of effort from a Duke team for 40 minutes. Duval is a problem - huge physical talent as seen in his dunk, but his decision making leaves a lot to be desired.

Coach K always has a plan, but this season is getting to the point where there may not be enough time to see that plan mature.

[eddiehaskell]

Duval can somewhat stay with Berry...Grayson not so much.

[84Duke]

29-5?, as someone said. Duke has lost 3 of 4.

[dukelifer]

Duke got punched in the mouth by a very experienced UNC team in the second half and did not respond well. No way did the Duke kids quit or look disinterested. They simply panicked. Duke again had a chance to tie late and simply did not score. This is what Freshman do against experienced teams. They don't make good decisions. I liked what I saw from Bolden and AOC played very well. I think both will need to play more. I am afraid Allen's wrist is not 100% and that is probably the worse news of the night. This Duke team has some excellent talent- but this is money time and everything gets more intense. The young guys are not quite ready. It is all new for them. They have a couple of weeks to figure it out or they will have a short March.

Sadly, Duval is not the right point guard for this team. He does not have the ability to control tempo and he does not have a good feel for time and score. Duke needs a guard who can do that. He is also not a great defender. Duval is good at what he does-which is drive hard to the basket- but he is not experienced enough to run this team. Jones was an anomaly and he also had Cook to bail him out. The regular season is now just about getting ready for the big dance. But I don't see the guard combination that is good enough to make a deep run. We will know more in a couple of weeks.

[ncexnyc]

Duval is an easy scapegoat for DBR. Not as talented as Bagley, not as polished as Carter, not as a good a shooter as Trent, and not a senior like Allen.

Duval isn't the main problem in ACC play, IMO. Given, he hasn't been lights-out, but there is plenty of blame to go around.

Sorry, but when I hand you the keys to the car and you wreck it I'm not going to blame the passengers. That's just the way it is. I said this a couple of weeks ago when we had that Tyus vs Trevon debate going on in one of the threads, "All turnovers aren't created equal." When you're driving that 180 MPH sports car you have to know when to punch the gas and when to pump the brakes.

[lotusland]

Two things I think I think (thank you, Peter King).

First, the 3 big lineup was a bad decision.
Second, Duval fouling out with 3 minutes to go was a problem.

Our back court was in foul trouble. Duvall fouled out a GA and Trent both finished with 4. We don’t have much depth at guard but we have plenty of bigs so it’s either Goldwire or 3 bigs. Javen has played on the wing before but tonight was the first time Bagley, Carter and Bolden have played together.

[bluenorth]

And a junior Luke Kennard.

Get used to it. Next year all of the guys who are learning the game will be gone, and a new bunch of freshmen will take their places. Back to square one!

[Oriole Way]

I thought this was a huge problem as well. Duval in crunch time is amazing.

And yes - the 3 big lineup was a horrible decision. I guess it forces Carter to shoot 3s, which isn't a terrible idea.

If you want to rely simply on +/- to disagree, go ahead. I will continue to strongly believe that 4 turnovers, 5 fouls, and 2-9 shooting in 20 minutes is poor play. And witnessing exactly how his turnovers negatively impacted the game for Duke.

[weezie]

No answers from me. I'm concerned that Allen is literally killing himself at both ends of the court and in the middle. Why is he all alone on the opposing big man so often? He's got so much heart it kind of worries me.

[jv001]

That's way too generic. Without Bagley's defensive effort in the last 8 minutes, we lose by 20.

I just don't see any evidence that "heart" was an issue in this game. The biggest issue to me was that UNC prevented us from getting good post touches in the 2nd half, which is largely (but not entirely) due to Duval's weaknesses.

I have to agree with your assessment on our point guard play. Duval has the talent to be an elite point guard but seems to lack college basketball IQ. That with a bad shooting touch let's the other team leave him open in order to play Trent and Grayson tight on defense. It also allows his man to double down on our big guys. I hope Coach K has an answer. GoDuke!

[CameronDuke]

Don't get me wrong - the sheer entertainment of watching players like Bagley, Tatum, Carter, Kyrie, Ingram, Parker, Frank Jackson, and Giles is exhilarating at times. But is it bad if I'm nostalgic for a team with Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek, Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith, and Kyle Singler types? Loved the continuity, consistency and togetherness I could count on from squads like that.

[CoachJ10]

Please stop. For every bad call you cite, UNC fans would surely be able to accurately see your bad call and raise. It's a pointless exercise. There were bad calls both ways, there always will be. Just gotta do more in between nthe whistles.

Again, that is the kind of attitude that I just find silly with all due respect. College basketball in particular is a game of momentum. If you can sit here and say bad calls dont affect that, more power to you, sir. There are a lot of reasons why teams win or lose...and yes, refs are one of them. If not, perhaps you can tell every coach in college basketball to stop talking to the refs “because it doesnt matter”.

[Oriole Way]

Duke got punched in the mouth by a very experienced UNC team in the second half and did not respond well. No way did the Duke kids quit or look disinterested. They simply panicked. Duke again had a chance to tie late and simply did not score. This is what Freshman do against experienced teams. They don't make good decisions. I liked what I saw from Bolden and AOC played very well. I think both will need to play more. I am afraid Allen's wrist is not 100% and that is probably the worse news of the night. This Duke team has some excellent talent- but this is money time and everything gets more intense. The young guys are not quite ready. It is all new for them. They have a couple of weeks to figure it out or they will have a short March.

Sadly, Duval is not the right point guard for this team. He does not have the ability to control tempo and he does not have a good feel for time and score. Duke needs a guard who can do that. He is also not a great defender. Duval is good at what he does-which is drive hard to the basket- but he is not experienced enough to run this team. Jones was an anomaly and he also had Cook to bail him out. The regular season is now just about getting ready for the big dance. But I don't see the guard combination that is good enough to make a deep run. We will know more in a couple of weeks.

I think we're going to have to play Allen and O'Connell more together. The more I see Duval fail to develop and continue to make poor decisions both with his passing and shot selection, the more I think he should be getting fewer minutes. There's still lots of upside with him, but as the schedule gets more difficult, it might be too late for him to become reliable enough to take Duke on a deep NCAA tournament run.

[NYBri]

Get used to it. Next year all of the guys who are learning the game will be gone, and a new bunch of freshmen will take their places. Back to square one!

OAD. Sigh.

[moonpie23]

"turribul" defense....


heels played well and closed escrow...

[Devilwin]

Don't get me wrong - the sheer entertainment of watching players like Bagley, Tatum, Carter, Kyrie, Ingram, Parker, Frank Jackson, and Giles is exhilarating at times. But is it bad if I'm nostalgic for a team with Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek, Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith, and Kyle Singler types? Loved the continuity, consistency and togetherness I could count on from squads like that.

Say what you want about Roy, but he got the max out of his team..We are not a good team right now. I say if things don't turn around soon, a 4 or even 5 seed is possible.

[Kjeffrey]

No answers from me. I'm concerned that Allen is literally killing himself at both ends of the court and in the middle. Why is he all alone on the opposing big man so often? He's got so much heart it kind of worries me.

I can't help but wonder if he is feeling the weight of the basketball world on his shoulders. He is the senior leader and there are such high expectations for this team. And with the recent struggles, the critics are out in full force on him and the team.

[dukelifer]

This was exactly the same team that showed up Saturday. If you can't get up for the big publicized rivalry game, what game are you going to get up for? Sure the last two have been bad teams, but today was still a hyped one.

High screen and roll for the layup drill again.

Duke was plenty pumped in the first half. They simply panicked and made bad decisions in that run by UNC to start the half. UNC is not a bad team. They have a number of good players and the look of a sweet 16 team. Experience matters and they play 3 seniors (2 McDonald AA's) and two other kids with experience that can shoot. When Williams shoots well they are a very tough out.

[Oriole Way]

Don't get me wrong - the sheer entertainment of watching players like Bagley, Tatum, Carter, Kyrie, Ingram, Parker, Frank Jackson, and Giles is exhilarating at times. But is it bad if I'm nostalgic for a team with Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek, Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith, and Kyle Singler types? Loved the continuity, consistency and togetherness I could count on from squads like that.

To be honest, I lived through the Greg Paulus/Gerald Henderson years on this board when we had a lot more 3 and 4-year players. And lots of posters clamored for more athletic, talented players. Myself included. I don't think it's reasonable to complain about a lack of talent from 2007-2010 and then also complain about the other end of the spectrum - too much young talent that lacks experience and defensive fundamentals. I think it's too unrealistic, to difficult, and too late in Coach K's career to expect him to find a magical balance. Which, ironically, Roy Williams seems to have found while UNC cheated their butts off for decades.

[left_hook_lacey]

Again, that is the kind of attitude that I just find silly with all due respect. College basketball in particular is a game of momentum. If you can sit here and say bad calls dont affect that, more power to you, sir. There are a lot of reasons why teams win or lose...and yes, refs are one of them. If not, perhaps you can tell every coach in college basketball to stop talking to the refs “because it doesnt matter”.

I think we're agreeing in different ways. Yes, bad calls affect the game. But for every bad call that goes against us, or we think goes against us, the team on the other side is also making a running list of bad calls that they will say cost them.the game. They tend to even out over the course of a game. Sure, there are instances that it seems grossly in one teams favor, but I didn't see that this game. Bagley got away with several walks, and we got away with a lot of over the backs. It's just the way it goes.

[JD for Three!]

I miss a sophomore Frank Jackson.

How about a junior Luke Kennard?

[UNCfan]

From a UNC fans perspective, looks like Allen will end a long line of "most hated Duke player" during the K era. Next year, you will have a completely different team. I can imagine your frustration at the moment, but they can pull it together at the end of the season when the finality of their college experience comes to an end. Bagley is unbelievable. Would die for him to be in a UNC uniform.

[elvis14]

I think we're agreeing in different ways. Yes, bad calls affect the game. But for every bad call that goes against us, or we think goes against us, the team on the other side is also making a running list of bad calls that they will say cost them.the game. They tend to even out over the course of a game. Sure, there are instances that it seems grossly in one teams favor, but I didn't see that this game. Bagley got away with several walks, and we got away with a lot of over the backs. It's just the way it goes.

In the first half, we got up by 9 and the mystery calls began until UNCheat was back in the game. Not all fouls are created equal. Momentum is important. Tonight the home cooking had an effect. We still should have won.

[proelitedota]

Homecourt advantage has been its biggest this season. Let's see how this goes in the home game.

[dukelifer]

Get used to it. Next year all of the guys who are learning the game will be gone, and a new bunch of freshmen will take their places. Back to square one!
Experience matters. K has the team that he has. A couple of weeks to right the wrongs.

[Wander]

I think we're going to have to play Allen and O'Connell more together. The more I see Duval fail to develop and continue to make poor decisions both with his passing and shot selection, the more I think he should be getting fewer minutes. There's still lots of upside with him, but as the schedule gets more difficult, it might be too late for him to become reliable enough to take Duke on a deep NCAA tournament run.

Though I've been critical of Duval's PG play, we have to play him. He's one of our most talented players, I don't think we have a better answer at PG or a bunch of versatile forwards like Kyle Singler that can play at guard in a pinch, and, again, I don't think any of the issues have to do with heart or effort. I do think we should consider giving more of his PG duties to Grayson though in the halfcourt. Which isn't ideal in and of itself, but it may be the best of a bunch of unideal solutions.

[WVDUKEFAN]

I have to agree with your assessment on our point guard play. Duval has the talent to be an elite point guard but seems to lack college basketball IQ. That with a bad shooting touch let's the other team leave him open in order to play Trent and Grayson tight on defense. It also allows his man to double down on our big guys. I hope Coach K has an answer. GoDuke!

I think you are spot on. I saw some bright spots with his game tonight. How could you not love that dunk down their throats? When he drives and gets the ball on the rim, our bigs should finish. It's just seems like the dumb plays outnumber the good ones. Grayson or Gary at the point isn't the answer. I haven't seen enough of Goldwire to comment. I don't think O'Connell is the answer as a starter at this point. Nor is Jack White. K is going to keep playing this kid until he understands, leaves, or Jones gets here.

[left_hook_lacey]

In the first half, we got up by 9 and the mystery calls began until UNCheat was back in the game. Not all fouls are created equal. Momentum is important. Tonight the home cooking had an effect. We still should have won.

Exactly. We should've won. If 3 little men running up and down the court keep us from beating a team that we obviously should have dominated, then we didn't deserve to win.

[Kjeffrey]

According to Tom Crean,"Thye've got to get better defensively. There's just not enough resistance." Yup. Any suggestions on how to fix it, Tom?

[Furniture]

If you want to rely simply on +/- to disagree, go ahead. I will continue to strongly believe that 4 turnovers, 5 fouls, and 2-9 shooting in 20 minutes is poor play. And witnessing exactly how his turnovers negatively impacted the game for Duke.

Sorry but my logic says +/- means a lot. How can it not? Listen to the DBR podcast. Coach a John Scheyer says it the little things that make the difference. Isn’t that the +/-?

[WVDUKEFAN]

Duke was plenty pumped in the first half. They simply panicked and made bad decisions in that run by UNC to start the half. UNC is not a bad team. They have a number of good players and the look of a sweet 16 team. Experience matters and they play 3 seniors (2 McDonald AA's) and two other kids with experience that can shoot. When Williams shoots well they are a very tough out.

They shot lights out tonight.

[nmduke2001]

Over the last 15 years the only time we’ve been able to defend the high pick and roll was when Justice basically stopped everything or when Zoubek found magic defense powder. Not surprisingly we won titles both years. Year after year it’s the same play that kill us. This year we make terrible switches and somehow Grayson has to guard PFs all night and Carter chases guards around the perimeter. You’d think if K’s defense is hard for freshman to learn, he’d either change his defense or his recruiting strategy.

How does Pinson have moderate success guarding Bagley? How do we give up so many offensive rebounds? This team is really frustrating but I’m hoping Zoubek left some of that magic defense powder lying around.

[CoachJ10]

I think we're agreeing in different ways. Yes, bad calls affect the game. But for every bad call that goes against us, or we think goes against us, the team on the other side is also making a running list of bad calls that they will say cost them.the game. They tend to even out over the course of a game. Sure, there are instances that it seems grossly in one teams favor, but I didn't see that this game. Bagley got away with several walks, and we got away with a lot of over the backs. It's just the way it goes.

Glad you do agree that reffing can obviously affect outcomes. But no, they don't tend to even out over the course of game. And as I pointed out, not every call or non call is created equal. Momentum is just huge in college basketball, so bad calls are even more impactful.

But obviously there were many reason why we lost tonight. Key calls was just one part (that sadly is just par for the course with ACC refs).

[duke4ever19]

They shot lights out tonight.

UNC? I'm pretty sure they actually shot a bit below their average tonight. I could be wrong.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Sorry but my logic says +/- means a lot. How can it not? Listen to the DBR podcast. Coach a John Scheyer says it the little things that make the difference. Isn’t that the +/-?

He's right. Lots of little things add up quickly.

[elvis14]

Sorry but my logic says +/- means a lot. How can it not? Listen to the DBR podcast. Coach a John Scheyer says it the little things that make the difference. Isn’t that the +/-?

The reason I love the running +/- thread in DBR is that the more games you have the more it represents true trends and hides anomalies. For a single game, +/- can often be misleading.

[Oriole Way]

In the first half, we got up by 9 and the mystery calls began until UNCheat was back in the game. Not all fouls are created equal. Momentum is important. Tonight the home cooking had an effect. We still should have won.

I do agree that the refs were particularly one-sided in UNC's favor tonight. For every bad call against UNC, there were at least 2 or 3 bad calls against Duke. I mean seriously, when you have Jay Bilas ranting about how smart Joel Berry was for blatantly hooking Grayson Allen when replays clearly showed what normally would be called an offensive foul in vast majority of games, it's not hard to see that the home team benefitted from some poor officiating. It happens, and there will be games Duke may benefit in the same way at home, but it WAS a factor in the game tonight. Duval's foul when he tied up the ball is called a jump ball 75%+ of the time.

[simplyluvin]

The OAD era has been mostly heartbreaking with the exception of ‘15. This year has been more excruciating than last year as we seemingly have a higher ceiling and have been much healthier (incl. Coach K).

The key difference with 2015 was that they figured it out on the defensive end towards the end and they had arguably the best backcourt in the country. Hoping that we can turn it on at ACC tourney time like we did last year. Wish Duval would play with more control and there would be more ball movement. Grayson is likely playing hurt.

Seeding is not the issue. I know we can beat anyone. We just have to learn to play team basketball and play for each other. There’s time, but not much. Not sure how many more I can losses I can take. And we seem to be a far cry from the team that won PK80

[elvis14]

UNC? I'm pretty sure they actually shot a bit below their average tonight. I could be wrong.

I hear this argument but you have to realize that their average includes game against Pittsburg and Wofford, etc. For a game like tonight, they hit shots they should not have (very long 3's and guarded 3's).

[Kjeffrey]

Over the last 15 years the only time we’ve been able to defend the high pick and roll was when Justice basically stopped everything or when Zoubek found magic defense powder. Not surprisingly we won titles both years. Year after year it’s the same play that kill us. This year we make terrible switches and somehow Grayson has to guard PFs all night and Carter chases guards around the perimeter. You’d think if K’s defense is hard for freshman to learn, he’d either change his defense or his recruiting strategy.

How does Pinson have moderate success guarding Bagley? How do we give up so many offensive rebounds? This team is really frustrating but I’m hoping Zoubek left some of that magic defense powder lying around.

Or how does Maye have success guarding Carter? Never saw that coming. I thought they would destroy UNC on the inside. Happened in the first half but couldn't figure it out in the second half.

[aivroadstr]

Frequent mental lapses, terrible defense, poor choices on offense. Not much progress being made. Just not seeing it. Same freshman mistakes showing up.

Bolden was great though.

Was very happy with Bolden's performance. Didn't understand why he didn't play more. Perhaps winded.

Also, agree that Duval played more minutes than he should have. Don't get me wrong, he's extremely smooth at times... but at times he seems like he's more of a liability than an asset.

[gofurman]

Long season left. But Duke is looking more and more like a 2-3 seed. If Duke were to not lose a game until selection Sunday, then yes, at 29-5, they're maybe a 1 seed. Since now many posts I'm reading are saying Duke can redeem themselves with an ACC or NCAA Tournament run, I'll entertain it. A 1 seed is possible if Duke doesn't lose again. 26-5 would get Duke a 1 seed.

But if we're using Duke's past performances as a predictive measure to forecast how they'll do the remainder of the season? Then I see them losing twice more at least before selection Sunday if not 3 more times. That would put them at around 25-7, 24-8. A solid 2-3 seed.

Has Duke ever won the national championship as a seed other than a 1 seed? Would be cool to win it all this year from a 2-3 seed.

Yes Duke has won one title as a two seed. Other four titles came as one seed. As a one seed Duke has never lost in first weekend. As a two seed Duke makes final four 40% of time. But as two seed also has lost in first weekend 40% of time!

[WVDUKEFAN]

UNC? I'm pretty sure they actually shot a bit below their average tonight. I could be wrong.

You are probably correct. Watching the 3s go down just seemed like a nightmare I couldn't wake up from.

[Dub]

I think we're going to have to play Allen and O'Connell more together. The more I see Duval fail to develop and continue to make poor decisions both with his passing and shot selection, the more I think he should be getting fewer minutes. There's still lots of upside with him, but as the schedule gets more difficult, it might be too late for him to become reliable enough to take Duke on a deep NCAA tournament run.

If Allen is our primary ball handler, I guarantee you our ceiling is the Sweet 16. Grayson Allen has lost his burst. Perhaps his overly aggressive style has caught up to him or maybe our two big approach limit his straight line drives. Grayson’s biggest threat on offense is hitting 3s at this point.

The only way IMO we reach our potential is a balanced Trevon Duval. He’s a score first guard on a team where he is required to be pass first. It’s a huge adjustment for him and he obviously struggles making the right choice sometimes. All I know is an aggressive Trevon usually leads to good results so I’ll take the bad with the good. K definitely has his hands full. So much potential yet so far away.

[duke4ever19]

I hear this argument but you have to realize that their average includes game against Pittsburg and Wofford, etc. For a game like tonight, they hit shots they should not have (very long 3's and guarded 3's).

So, in your opinion, UNC "shot lights out?" Because that was the post I was responding to. I disagree with that assessment.

[CameronDuke]

To be honest, I lived through the Greg Paulus/Gerald Henderson years on this board when we had a lot more 3 and 4-year players. And lots of posters clamored for more athletic, talented players. Myself included. I don't think it's reasonable to complain about a lack of talent from 2007-2010 and then also complain about the other end of the spectrum - too much young talent that lacks experience and defensive fundamentals. I think it's too unrealistic, to difficult, and too late in Coach K's career to expect him to find a magical balance. Which, ironically, Roy Williams seems to have found while UNC cheated their butts off for decades.

I think that's a good point. But I don't think talent/athleticism and experience are mutually exclusive. Like, Duke can still recruit talented kids that will stay longer than a year (Hendo like you mentioned stayed 3 and had a long NBA career, Miles/Mason Plumlee stayed all 4 years and are NBA players, and JJ Redick stayed all 4 years and is in his like 12th year in the NBA). There are probably others. The kind of players Duke is predominantly recruiting right now are talented, there's no denying that. Watching Paulus's limited athleticism was frustrating at times but for me personally, I knew he was concentrating and trying his best both mentally and physically most of the time when he played. I'm not saying the players now are purposefully losing or not wanting to win. That's stupid. But their focus level collectively gets so small at times at seems. They just go totally brain dead sometimes. It's so frustrating to watch. Even Coach K after both the St. John's and UNC losses said something to the effect of he draws up diagrammed plays on the sideline or in the locker room at halftime and then the team runs out between the lines and either forget what he talked about or do something drastically different than he told them to do. He said their minds may be getting intercepted by lasers or something to that effect in his presser yesterday (he was joking of course).

I'm not totally against the one and done model. Maybe having 1-2 per team with a 2 and done type player is better than 3-4 one and done players per year?

[CDu]

They shot lights out tonight.

No, they didn’t. They shot 33%. They won the game on the boards.

[CoachJ10]

Or how does Maye have success guarding Carter? Never saw that coming. I thought they would destroy UNC on the inside. Happened in the first half but couldn't figure it out in the second half.

When UNC started to front us, we didnt adjust to drive and attack. Was a big mistake on our part.

[bluenorth]

The OAD era has been mostly heartbreaking with the exception of ‘15. This year has been more excruciating than last year as we seemingly have a higher ceiling and have been much healthier (incl. Coach K).

The key difference with 2015 was that they figured it out on the defensive end towards the end and they had arguably the best backcourt in the country. Hoping that we can turn it on at ACC tourney time like we did last year. Wish Duval would play with more control and there would be more ball movement. Grayson is likely playing hurt.

Seeding is not the issue. I know we can beat anyone. We just have to learn to play team basketball and play for each other. There’s time, but not much. Not sure how many more I can losses I can take. And we seem to be a far cry from the team that won PK80

Ah, PK80 was an awesome display! It seems so long ago... And yes, we can beat anyone. Unfortunately it appears that we can also lose to anyone. The season's clock is ticking....

[gofurman]

Was very happy with Bolden's performance. Didn't understand why he didn't play more. Perhaps winded.

Also, agree that Duval played more minutes than he should have. Don't get me wrong, he's extremely smooth at times... but at times he seems like he's more of a liability than an asset.

Maybe. Not to sound obvious but Someone had the stats that when Grayson scores a fair amount ... We win. It was a very marked Coorelation. And for Grayson to score Duval has to run the point. When Grayson runs point his scoring diminishes and we run into the losses

[elvis14]

So, in your opinion, UNC "shot lights out?" Because that was the post I was responding to. I disagree with that assessment.


No, I specifically didn't use that term. I just think they hit shots they shouldn't have which means they shot a better percentage than they should have (don't care if it was over or under their average).

[Oriole Way]

Sorry but my logic says +/- means a lot. How can it not? Listen to the DBR podcast. Coach a John Scheyer says it the little things that make the difference. Isn’t that the +/-?

+/- partially is dependent on the play of others. It's a part of the statistical picture, but it's also not necessarily a great indicator of anything in a one game sample. Furthermore, as another poster above mentioned +/- reveals more trends when taken in context of a larger sample size/several games. Again, you can point to +/- and claim Duval played well, or not as poorly as I'm saying he did. I will rest my case that he was a big factor for Duke losing tonight by pointing to the rest of his statistical line and my visual observation that he played exceedingly poorly tonight.

[jv001]

I think we're going to have to play Allen and O'Connell more together. The more I see Duval fail to develop and continue to make poor decisions both with his passing and shot selection, the more I think he should be getting fewer minutes. There's still lots of upside with him, but as the schedule gets more difficult, it might be too late for him to become reliable enough to take Duke on a deep NCAA tournament run.

If Duval can't be the type point guard that can get Duke to the FF, then we're in trouble. Playing Grayson there for much of the game is not the answer. Who guards the opposing point guard in our man2man? Goldwire is probably not the answer because if he was, I believe Coach K would have used him before tonight. Trent is not the answer because his ball handling is not strong. I'm beginning to think our only hope is Duval suddenly get's it but I don't know if that's possible because his basketball IQ seems low. I do think he can be a better on the ball defender if he'll try to stay with his man and not switch off all the time. If Coach K can get this team to the FF it will be his best coaching job everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. GoDuke!

[Wander]

Ah, PK80 was an awesome display!

The games against Texas and Florida were close and required big comebacks. It's very easy to imagine those games would be losses if they were road games instead of neutral games (or, more optimistically, UNC and St John's would be wins if they weren't road games). So, I don't buy that things are that different.

I STILL think we can win the national title. But it will require Duval improving a lot on offense, or figuring out some other adjustment at PG, and/or continued improvement on defense generally from our backcourt.

[eddiehaskell]

UNC didn’t shoot a high percentage but they took 77 shots vs 62. 2 turnovers vs 8. 41 rebounds vs 34. They esentially played a perfect game if you’re going to shoot 39% from the field.

[duke4ever19]

No, I specifically didn't use that term. I just think they hit shots they shouldn't have which means they shot a better percentage than they should have (don't care if it was over or under their average).

I know you didn't use that term, I was responding to someone else who did use that term, and I was calling it into question. . .

UNC shot 33% tonight, so is that better than they should have shot?

Call me crazy, but 33% isn't a particularly awe-inspiring percentage and it's definitely not "lights out." I don't even think it's pretty darn good. It's meh-to-blah.

[Billy Dat]

It is definitely weird to have a Duke team so vulnerable to defending small ball lineups. That killed us tonight. On the other end, there were many times when we had mismatches but they really scrapped to prevent entry passes. The 3 big line-up was not a good call by K.

The rebounds and loose balls that basically decided the game were perhaps due to veterans playing at home and more seasoned to the intensity of the rivalry.

Between K’s season long reliance on the starters and injuries/illness to the bench, we don’t have an established rotation and it shows sometimes. There were some line-ups that weren’t comfortable with where to be.

Grayson is all heart but he was ineffective running the team, he kind of puts that head down and goes. When the going got tough on offense, we do tend to go hero balling. Gary took some bad hero ball shots.

Still, we had a clean look to tie it with 3 left - if that goes in, who knows.

We need to get that next win and get back to having fun.

[RepoMan]

Very winnable game lost due to poor effort and execution in the 2nd half.

Honestly, I am sick of garbage comments like this. Poor effort? That is asinine. You have no basis to say that. Those kids, and they are kids, gave every indication that they were trying their very hardest to win. Why would you think otherwise? You have absolutely no basis to question their effort. BS comment from the dude on the couch.

[tbyers11]

No, they didn’t. They shot 33%. They won the game on the boards.

UNC was 9-19 from 3 over the first 24 minutes when they stayed closer than it seemed like they should have been in the first half and took their 10 pt lead to start the second. There was some bad closeouts but a few deep, tough shots as well. They were pretty hot to get the lead.

But you are correct that they won the game over the last 16 minutes on the boards.

[TNTDevil]

Just not a really good Duke team. Watching four freshman play is tough sometimes. Duval's end of game decision making and play have been very costly in the last month.With no disrespect intended, this isn't really a "Duke" team. Yes, that's what it says on the jersey but, four freshman, especially these freshman, have yet to learn to be a Duke team.


Might as well get used to that for the next few years. Got no advice on how to stomach it.Bingo. Curse of the OAD era.

[WHOneedsSOX]

The games against Texas and Florida were close and required big comebacks. It's very easy to imagine those games would be losses if they were road games instead of neutral games (or, more optimistically, UNC and St John's would be wins if they weren't road games). So, I don't buy that things are that different.

I STILL think we can win the national title. But it will require Duval improving a lot on offense, or figuring out some other adjustment at PG, and/or continued improvement on defense generally from our backcourt.

Duke is probably one of the top 3 talented teams in the nation. It all depends on their execution and effort on defense and rebounding. Their talent alone keeps them in every game.

[Troublemaker]

Or how does Maye have success guarding Carter? Never saw that coming. I thought they would destroy UNC on the inside. Happened in the first half but couldn't figure it out in the second half.

You guys sound like UNC fans from previous seasons when Duke beats them. "Why couldn't we pound it inside all day? How can [smaller Duke defender] guard [bigger UNC post player]"? It's just not THAT hard to deny the post. It's a guard's game out there. And when you have better guards and shoot threes better, you tend to have an advantage on the bigger team. That's why Duke has controlled the head to head with UNC in recent seasons.

Props to Carolina tonight for being able to use Duke's game to beat us better than we could use UNC's game to beat them. (Our failure on the boards was key).

[ncexnyc]

The OAD era has been mostly heartbreaking with the exception of ‘15. This year has been more excruciating than last year as we seemingly have a higher ceiling and have been much healthier (incl. Coach K).

The key difference with 2015 was that they figured it out on the defensive end towards the end and they had arguably the best backcourt in the country. Hoping that we can turn it on at ACC tourney time like we did last year. Wish Duval would play with more control and there would be more ball movement. Grayson is likely playing hurt.

Seeding is not the issue. I know we can beat anyone. We just have to learn to play team basketball and play for each other. There’s time, but not much. Not sure how many more I can losses I can take. And we seem to be a far cry from the team that won PK80

The main difference between this team and the 2015 team is that Winslow came in with the reputation as a defensive stud. Something that was clearly obvious during the HS All-Star games when he was tasked with guarding the opposition's PG at the end of two of those games. We also had a couple of other players on the 2015 team who didn't mind getting down and dirty when the chips were on the line.

[Oriole Way]

I think that's a good point. But I don't think talent/athleticism and experience are mutually exclusive. Like, Duke can still recruit talented kids that will stay longer than a year (Hendo like you mentioned stayed 3 and had a long NBA career, Miles/Mason Plumlee stayed all 4 years and are NBA players, and JJ Redick stayed all 4 years and is in his like 12th year in the NBA). There are probably others. The kind of players Duke is predominantly recruiting right now are talented, there's no denying that. Watching Paulus's limited athleticism was frustrating at times but for me personally, I knew he was concentrating and trying his best both mentally and physically most of the time when he played. I'm not saying the players now are purposefully losing or not wanting to win. That's stupid. But their focus level collectively gets so small at times at seems. They just go totally brain dead sometimes. It's so frustrating to watch.

I'm not totally against the one and done model. Maybe having 1-2 per team with a 2 and done type player is better than 3-4 one and done players per year?

Yeah but we could say that we had that model as well with the Austin Rivers, Jabari Parker, and Brandon Ingram teams. And those teams also had major defensive problems. I think at some point some blame has to fall on the coaching staff for failing to coach and develop defensive fundamentals. Or failing to recruit it. That's been one of the most consistent trends at Duke since around 2014. Abysmal defense and problems preventing guards from penetrating our perimeter defense. While this year seems to be the nadir of Duke perimeter defense of the 3-point shot, which has almost always been a strength of Coach K Duke teams.

[Chicago 1995]

We’re a poorly coached team that lacks leadership. We just are.

We don’t get the ball to our most talented players enough. We don’t even seem to understand what that means. We keep trying to run the same defensive sets that get shredded again and again and again, and think the same thing will suddenly bring a different result.

We’be got as much talent as anyone in the country, but we’re getting so little out of it. We blamed injuries last year when we squandered a load of talent. Maybe it wasn’t just injuries.

[rsvman]

A few comments have been made with which I disagree.
First, that going to the zone was dumb and cost us a lot. From my perspective, it wasn't a bad idea, and we hung at about the same place while we ran it.
Second, that the three bigs was a bad idea. I thought it was mixed. On defense, since we were in the zone, it worked out pretty well for the most part. They were missing shots and we were grabbing rebounds. On offense that lineup was surprisingly anemic.

For me the key possession in the game was when we clawed back to 74-71. At that point, the Cheaters were stone cold and we had the momentum. They shot and missed, but got the rebound. Wasted a bunch of time, then shot and missed again, but got the rebound. Wasted more time, then shot and missed again, but got the rebound. Wasted more time, then we fouled them and they took it out on the baseline. Wasted more time, then missed again, and then finally Bagley got the rebound.
We were still only down three, but it seemed like almost two minutes of playing time has elapsed. This sequence was followed by a rushed and somewhat forced three attempt by Trent, which missed.

I feel like if we hadn't given them so much time and so many attempts, maybe we wouldn't have felt so much pressure to push the tempo and take a bad shot very early in the shot clock. Had we scored even a 2 on that possession the game may have tilted in our favor.

[UNCfan]

We’re a poorly coached team that lacks leadership. We just are.

We don’t get the ball to our most talented players enough. We don’t even seem to understand what that means. We keep trying to run the same defensive sets that get shredded again and again and again, and think the same thing will suddenly bring a different result.

We’be got as much talent as anyone in the country, but we’re getting so little out of it. We blamed injuries last year when we squandered a load of talent. Maybe it wasn’t just injuries.

Its OAD.

[KandG]

Pretty much a replay of the St. John's game for the first 25 minutes or so. Get out to a semi-comfortable lead in the first half, look in control, wheels humming smoothly. Then multiple mistakes, bad offense, bad defense, slow start to the second half with the other team getting all the 50-50 balls, and suddenly we have to make up a double digit deficit.

40 points in the first 13:28 is incredible offense and testament to how easily it seems to come to this Duke team. But only scoring 17 in the next 15 minutes (while giving up 39) is the continuation of a worrying trend, even for a young team that you expect to be inconsistent and susceptible to runs.

Greenberg and other pundits always talk about Duke lacking a "defensive identity". Is it zone? Is it trapping? Is it switching everything? It's hard to tell, because our focus wavers no matter what we're doing at this point.

Most interesting wrinkle of the game (for me) was when K subbed O'Connell for Duval less than 4 minutes into the second half, and we went zone at the 14:48 mark (down 61-53) and stayed with it for around 7 minutes. We had a "small" version of the zone with Trent Jr/Allen/O'Connell and then a "big" version with Bolden/Carter/Bagley. The zone didn't do badly: 3 stops in 5 UNC half court possessions, though it did give up 3 offensive rebounds.

The problem is that we gave up four transition baskets in that same time period, one of them a three. Our defense tightened up somewhat after UNC's run to start the second half, but our offense was dreadful, and having three bigs in there (and no guard who could break the initial line of defense with Duval sitting for 7 minutes) only gummed up the spacing and aided their transition.

Duval is getting singled out as usual, and I'm with those who feel he has to take that next step for this team to reach its potential. K seems to be struggling with how to handle him: yank him for bad turnovers, sitting him for longer stretches. But when he's on, he just gives this team a dynamism and unlocks so much in our offense. Everyone's understandably focused on some of his inexplicable turnovers, but tonight the inability to manage his fouls smartly was the most damaging. To be fair, Tre's second foul was a pretty cheap call, but getting three so quickly after re-entering the game late was ridiculous.

Glad to see Bolden and Alex giving the team good minutes. And I thought Bagley defended better than I've seen him in a while...he still struggles with shooters on the perimeter, but he got deflections and blocks and had more active hands in general.

I really want to see Wendell and Trevon snap out of their funk and take this team to the next stage of growth. It's the tough part of our schedule now, and we've been punched in the mouth two times in row by teams that played harder than we did at critical moments. It's time to punch back. The play of our bench is a positive sign, we just need some contributions from Javin and better play from a couple of our starters.

[elvis14]

I know you didn't use that term, I was responding to someone else who did use that term . . .

UNC shot 33% tonight, so is that better than they should have shot? Call me crazy, but 33% isn't a particularly awe-inspiring percentage and it's definitely not "lights out."

Sorry, didn't mean to sound overly snarky. I'm pissed.

Note that the Cheaters had a stretch in the 2nd half where they missed everything and didn't score for 4 minutes. Several missed 3's. Point being, the perception of how hot a team is or isn't not matching shooting statistics can be affected by something like this. Of the 3's that they hit in the game, multiple were low percentage shots that went in. Good news is that next game they aren't as likely to go in.

[Chicago 1995]

Yeah but we could say that we had that model as well with the Austin Rivers, Jabari Parker, and Brandon Ingram teams. And those teams also had major defensive problems. I think at some point some blame has to fall on the coaching staff for failing to coach and develop defensive fundamentals. Or failing to recruit it. That's been one of the most consistent trends at Duke since around 2014. Abysmal defense and problems preventing guards from penetrating our perimeter defense. While this year seems to be the nadir of Duke perimeter defense of the 3-point shot, which has almost always been a strength of Coach K Duke teams.

Or failing to adjust the approach. Between the way the game is called and the proliferation of teams with the ability to spread and shoot, I think the style of D K wants to play is even harder to make work, if it still works at all

[CameronDuke]

I will say this. Coach K can work magic. He has done it before. Like in 2010 I did NOT see Duke winning it all. He's a magician at times. But holy mackerel, I think even he is puzzled with Duke's execution at times this year. He seems a bit confused with what Duke's players do sometimes this season. He's just a human like all of us. One with 5 national championships but daggone, he is trying his best, he subbed Bolden and O'Connell for more minutes tonight than they've both gotten in a while (something a lot of armchair coaches were clamoring for on these boards) and the players still don't have enough dog in them to scratch/claw a win out. Sorry folks but that ain't Coach K tonight. Eventually the players need to be held accountable. If he somehow rights this ship (which is extremely possible) - and by right this ship I mean if he takes a team that's currently 19-5, 7-4 and losers of two straight and 3 of 4 - on February 8, and somehow wins an ACC or NCAA Championship, he further solidifies himself as an absolute magician. Because I just don't see it right now. All the talent we need and probably more talented than 98% of the teams in the NCAA this season but just so discombobulated at times.

[dukelifer]

The OAD era has been mostly heartbreaking with the exception of ‘15. This year has been more excruciating than last year as we seemingly have a higher ceiling and have been much healthier (incl. Coach K).

The key difference with 2015 was that they figured it out on the defensive end towards the end and they had arguably the best backcourt in the country. Hoping that we can turn it on at ACC tourney time like we did last year. Wish Duval would play with more control and there would be more ball movement. Grayson is likely playing hurt.

Seeding is not the issue. I know we can beat anyone. We just have to learn to play team basketball and play for each other. There’s time, but not much. Not sure how many more I can losses I can take. And we seem to be a far cry from the team that won PK80

heartbreaking? maybe frustrating. This is a ridiculously inexperienced team and it is showing itself on big stages.

[gofurman]

UNC? I'm pretty sure they actually shot a bit below their average tonight. I could be wrong.

Right, We were lucky in a way. For how many open threes they took they were only 11-33. 33%. The Kenny Williams is selective memory ... They actually didn't burn us from three. They could have hit two or three more.

We shot a better pct from three than they did !

[Chicago 1995]

Its OAD.

I don’t think that’s true. You can be young, but well coached. We aren’t. You can have leadership even on a young team. We don’t.

[CDu]

The games against Texas and Florida were close and required big comebacks. It's very easy to imagine those games would be losses if they were road games instead of neutral games (or, more optimistically, UNC and St John's would be wins if they weren't road games). So, I don't buy that things are that different.

I STILL think we can win the national title. But it will require Duval improving a lot on offense, or figuring out some other adjustment at PG, and/or continued improvement on defense generally from our backcourt.

Yeah, the team still just doesn’t seem able to play a complete game. We have the talent to win it all. But we have to learn to play smarter, and bring the effort for 40 minutes.

Not saying we didn’t play hard tonight. We did. But UNC played harder. A woefully undersized team outrebounded us comfortably tonight. That just can’t happen.

[DUKIE V(A)]

In the first half, we got up by 9 and the mystery calls began until UNCheat was back in the game. Not all fouls are created equal. Momentum is important. Tonight the home cooking had an effect. We still should have won.

Agree. Tonight many of the fouls called on UNC saved them from giving up easy baskets whereas many of ours keep their possessions alive. That said, I give Carolina credit for playing hard and smart throughout. They are not overly talented but they played well tonight. Still, IMHO they have much bigger problems moving forward than we do. Lack of elite talent is hard to overcome.

[gofurman]

Right, We were lucky in a way. For how many open threes they took they were only 11-33. 33%. The Kenny Williams is selective memory ... They actually didn't burn us from three. They could have hit two or three more.

We shot a better pct from three than they did !

Now the layups they got were disturbing. Berry running right by Carter or Bagley. Can't switch every play and leave a big w no help for a guard to blow by

[dukelifer]

We’re a poorly coached team that lacks leadership. We just are.

We don’t get the ball to our most talented players enough. We don’t even seem to understand what that means. We keep trying to run the same defensive sets that get shredded again and again and again, and think the same thing will suddenly bring a different result.

We’be got as much talent as anyone in the country, but we’re getting so little out of it. We blamed injuries last year when we squandered a load of talent. Maybe it wasn’t just injuries.

So Coach K forgot how to coach? Sometimes the parts don't fit together. Sometimes the point guard that is great for one type of team is not great for another. Duke has talent- but getting that talent to gel takes time. I am not convinced that if you give this team to another coach- that they would be rolling through the ACC. Young teams have a lot to learn.

[RepoMan]

Great team effort by UNC to overcome the talent and length that Duke showed inside. Experience and team balance was big in this one.

The player of the game to me was Kenny Williams. Not only because of his great shooting night, but the defensive effort he had on Trent. Duke was dominant inside but never found balance from outside. I credit Williams D on Trent and Berry's D on Grayson for that.

Berry was Berry, a clutch, hard working, great college point guard and leader..

Cam Johnson and Maye quietly had really good games as well. I was particularly impressed with Johnson's effort and work inside. He's alway been more of a wing player but he stepped up tonight and got after it in the paint.

I was surprised that UNC didn't drive it early and settled for jumpers, but as the game went on they became much more aggressive...and it was effective.

I thought both teams played at a high level. They all left it on the floor. Fun game to watch.

Can’t you find a place to post where people want to hear what you have to say? Win or lose, I never felt the urge to post on a UNC site. You have problems

[Wander]

No, they didn’t. They shot 33%. They won the game on the boards.

I'd have to go back and check, but my initial recollection is that a lot of their offensive rebounds in the 2nd half didn't actually lead to points. It was still a big factor, but maybe not as big as the box score suggests.

The most alarming "box score stat" from this game is UNC only having 2 turnovers. So I think the biggest things were ineffective PG play for Duke, especially as it relates to getting the ball into Carter/Bagley in the 2nd half, and bad defense from our guards in general. The offensive rebounds by UNC were bad, but (not to continue repeating this point, but...) were somewhat mitigated by great interior defense by Bagley in the last stretch of the game.

[jv001]

It is definitely weird to have a Duke team so vulnerable to defending small ball lineups. That killed us tonight. On the other end, there were many times when we had mismatches but they really scrapped to prevent entry passes. The 3 big line-up was not a good call by K.

The rebounds and loose balls that basically decided the game were perhaps due to veterans playing at home and more seasoned to the intensity of the rivalry.

Between K’s season long reliance on the starters and injuries/illness to the bench, we don’t have an established rotation and it shows sometimes. There were some line-ups that weren’t comfortable with where to be.

Grayson is all heart but he was ineffective running the team, he kind of puts that head down and goes. When the going got tough on offense, we do tend to go hero balling. Gary took some bad hero ball shots.

Still, we had a clean look to tie it with 3 left - if that goes in, who knows.

We need to get that next win and get back to having fun.

Agree with your post. Grayson plays hard every game on every play, but he's not the answer at point guard. Well, not for long stretches anyway. In the Michigan state game, it was Duval that set Grayson up for a lot of his points. But for whatever reason, That duo has not replicated that feat since that game. It looks like our offense is built to get the ball low to Carter and MBIII on every play and that's good if they are open but if they are not, then try something else. The inside kick out has not been used much this season and I thought that would be a great weapon with this team. We take so long to get our play going we are forced to take some well guarded shots. This is the most puzzling season I can remember. GoDuke!

[CameronDuke]

I cannot stand UNC. Hate them. However I'm not too big a Duke homer to say Roy has maximized the talent and efficiency of his roster the last few times I've watched them, especially tonight.

[CoachJ10]

Agree. Tonight many of the fouls called on UNC saved them from giving up easy baskets whereas many of ours keep their possessions alive. That said, I give Carolina credit for playing hard and smart throughout. They are not overly talented but they played well tonight. Still, IMHO they have much bigger problems moving forward than we do. Lack of elite talent is hard to overcome.

Sadly lacking in elite talent has not stopped UNC from having shocking and maddening success in the tourney the past couple years. Karma still has not caught up with the Cheats. For any of you kids out there who thought life was “fair”...uh no.

[rsvman]

They killed us from three in the first half. Then again, we won the first half,lol.
Their shooting reverted to the mean in the second half, which gave us a chance, except that we couldn't get a rebound, so they could pretty much just keep tossing up shots until one if then finally went in.

The real problem was on offense, not defense. We scored 49 points in the first half. You can do the math to see how many we scored in the second. The Cheats ramped up the defensive pressure enormously, and we had no answer.

[Furniture]

Was very happy with Bolden's performance. Didn't understand why he didn't play more. Perhaps winded.

Also, agree that Duval played more minutes than he should have. Don't get me wrong, he's extremely smooth at times... but at times he seems like he's more of a liability than an asset.


He only played 20 mins....

[Chicago 1995]

So Coach K forgot how to coach? Sometimes the parts don't fit together. Sometimes the point guard that is great for one type of team is not great for another. Duke has talent- but getting that talent to gel takes time. I am not convinced that if you give this team to another coach- that they would be rolling through the ACC. Young teams have a lot to learn.

Forgot to coach? No.

That doesn’t mean he’s doing a good job with this team. Maybe’s not communicating with them in way that they understand and execute. Maybe he’s being stubborn and not adapting to them. He’s the damned GOAT, but I don’t know how you can watch this team play over the last three to four weeks and think they are well coached. They aren’t. What he’s doing isn’t working

[RepoMan]

We’re a poorly coached team

For the love of God.

[91devil]

This is a ridiculously inexperienced team and it is showing itself on big stages.

Dukelifer and a few others including Weezie and my man Moonpie are great in the chat room. Brevity is cool, too. There are others I'm not naming who are great. I try to help with the enthusiasm. Lots of negative Nancies, though. It is awful to watch and read. Back Duke or Back Off.

Dukelife is right on with this assessment. Young team playing young. How can anyone say they didn't see this type of struggle coming? We were losing in the second half against Portland State. We should have lost to both Texas and Florida. The Team played poorly against, ahem, Southern. Then remember the losses in ACC Play.

Nothing should surprise anyone anymore. Young team. Great upside. Apparent downside. Enjoy the ride. The frustration light for the Team will kick in. Maybe that is the "hope" trade. But to "expect" things from this Team, any Team, is a little much and not deserved.

Congratulations to UNC. They played better. If Gary Trent's wide open three-pointer goes in, with a minute to go, and ties the game, this thread would be much different.

I'm always rooting for Duke, my alma mater, and I think we can still do great things this season. So Let's Go Duke!

[CameronDuke]

Do you think the UNC Duke rivalry (or let's say the Texas Oklahoma or West Virginia Pitt, etc. rivalry - but mainly the UNC Duke rivalry since it gets no bigger than that) means as much to a group of predominantly one and dones as it meant to players like Wojo, Singler, Miles Plumlee, JJ, Duhon, Battier, etc.? Some of the lack of hustle at times tonight by Duke's star freshmen got me thinking that it's just another game for them on the road to collecting a check in June which is unfortunate for a rivalry so good as UNC Duke.

Like a lot of these one and dones showed up on Duke's campus in what June/July 2017? How can we expect them in 7 months give or take to possibly understand the intensity of this rivalry? It's nearly impossible for 18-19 year olds to grasp that by and large for any program.

[ncexnyc]

For the love of God.
It's ok to disagree, but please tell us why we've lost 3 of 4.

[Furniture]

Honestly, I am sick of garbage comments like this. Poor effort? That is asinine. You have no basis to say that. Those kids, and they are kids, gave every indication that they were trying their very hardest to win. Why would you think otherwise? You have absolutely no basis to question their effort. BS comment from the dude on the couch.

Could not spork you. Well said!!!!!

[Dukehky]

The freshmen and the fact that they are likely 1 and dones are not the problem. They try hard. The coaching hasn't been great...

[Kjeffrey]

You guys sound like UNC fans from previous seasons when Duke beats them. "Why couldn't we pound it inside all day? How can [smaller Duke defender] guard [bigger UNC post player]"? It's just not THAT hard to deny the post. It's a guard's game out there. And when you have better guards and shoot threes better, you tend to have an advantage on the bigger team. That's why Duke has controlled the head to head with UNC in recent seasons.

Props to Carolina tonight for being able to use Duke's game to beat us better than we could use UNC's game to beat them. (Our failure on the boards was key).

I wasn't thinking of it from a size standpoint. I was referring more to athleticism. Multiple times
Carter seemed unable to make an interior move on Maye. I don't think guard play had much to do with that but maybe I'm missing something.

[CoachJ10]

Also, for those throwing the OAD model under the bus...you think the staff thought they’d have Luke for only 2 years and Frank for only one? Think about how different this year could have been.

[RepoMan]

It's ok to disagree, but please tell us why we've lost 3 of 4.

It’s not because we have “poor coaching” or because the players are not giving “effort.”

[ncexnyc]

It’s not because we have “poor coaching” or because the players are not giving “effort.”
Ok, we're still waiting for the answer to my question.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Also, for those throwing the OAD model under the bus...you think the staff thought they’d have Luke for only 2 years and Frank for only one? Think about how different this year could have been.

The staff knew full and well the guys we have playing right now will not be here next year. And they know the same about next year's crew.

[CDu]

Do you think the UNC Duke rivalry (or let's say the Texas Oklahoma or West Virginia Pitt, etc. rivalry - but mainly the UNC Duke rivalry since it gets no bigger than that) means as much to a group of predominantly one and dones as it meant to players like Wojo, Singler, Miles Plumlee, JJ, Duhon, Battier, etc.? Some of the lack of hustle at times tonight by Duke's star freshmen got me thinking that it's just another game for them on the road to collecting a check in June which is unfortunate for a rivalry so good as UNC Duke.

I think it is almost impossible for these freshmen to care as much about the rivalry as veterans do. But I think the bigger issue is that they just aren’t prepared for the effort/intensity that games like this require. And that is understandable. They are used to just being so much better than their opponents.

Hopefully at some point the light clicks on for them. That is the hope with a young team: that they grow up fast. UNC leaned heavily on their veterans, playing the you g guys very sparingly and rarely together. Having four junior/seniors on the floor is a big plus in games like this.

[CameronDuke]

I think it is almost impossible for these freshmen to care as much about the rivalry as veterans do. But I think the bigger issue is that they just aren’t prepared for the effort/intensity that games like this require. And that is understandable. They are used to just being so much better than their opponents.

Hopefully at some point the light clicks on for them. That is the hope with a young team: that they grow up fast.

Hope they continue to grow. We'll get them back March 3rd in Cameron. I am really banking on these last two consecutive losses really lighting a fire under this team that is simply impossible to extinguish in March.

[Furniture]

+/- partially is dependent on the play of others. It's a part of the statistical picture, but it's also not necessarily a great indicator of anything in a one game sample. Furthermore, as another poster above mentioned +/- reveals more trends when taken in context of a larger sample size/several games. Again, you can point to +/- and claim Duval played well, or not as poorly as I'm saying he did. I will rest my case that he was a big factor for Duke losing tonight by pointing to the rest of his statistical line and my visual observation that he played exceedingly poorly tonight.

I like stats but I am referring to tonight’s game. That’s TONIGHTS GAME where Duval was + 9 for the 20 minutes he was on court.

Can he do better...Yes.

Is Duval the reason Duke lost? He wasn’t the only player that missed shots. He wasn’t the only player that has turnovers. I could go on...

Please explain with facts why you think he was the reason why Duke lost.

[CDu]

Also, for those throwing the OAD model under the bus...you think the staff thought they’d have Luke for only 2 years and Frank for only one? Think about how different this year could have been.

Works both ways. I don’t think they expected Allen and Bolden to still be here.

When you recruit four top-15 recruits, you have to expect that most, if not all, will be one-and-done.

[KandG]

A few comments have been made with which I disagree.
First, that going to the zone was dumb and cost us a lot. From my perspective, it wasn't a bad idea, and we hung at about the same place while we ran it.


Yup, and I noted this in my post. When we actually forced UNC into a half court set against our zone, they scored twice in five attempts, once after we defended the initial set really well but gave up an offensive rebound. The issue is that we were slow getting back in transition too often, a result of our labored offense and playing very big.


For me the key possession in the game was when we clawed back to 74-71. At that point, the Cheaters were stone cold and we had the momentum. They shot and missed, but got the rebound. Wasted a bunch of time, then shot and missed again, but got the rebound. Wasted more time, then shot and missed again, but got the rebound. Wasted more time, then we fouled them and they took it out on the baseline. Wasted more time, then missed again, and then finally Bagley got the rebound.
We were still only down three, but it seemed like almost two minutes of playing time has elapsed. This sequence was followed by a rushed and somewhat forced three attempt by Trent, which missed.

I feel like if we hadn't given them so much time and so many attempts, maybe we wouldn't have felt so much pressure to push the tempo and take a bad shot very early in the shot clock.

This was a lot like the possessions down the stretch of the St. John's game. On the one you're talking about, UNC's Brooks got his hand on three different offensive rebounds to prolong the possession to nearly two minutes. Just a killer. But I thought Duval fouling out was ultimately the dagger.

A bit of trivia: From the time Duval reentered the game in the second half at 7:55 (at which point we stopped playing zone) until the time he fouled out at 3:59, UNC did not score. Score was 74-65 when he came in, 74-71 when he left. The rest is history.

[dukelifer]

Also, for those throwing the OAD model under the bus...you think the staff thought they’d have Luke for only 2 years and Frank for only one? Think about how different this year could have been.

Duke has had 1-2 OAD's who start the year. Winslow and Jones (who would be our senior pt guard this year) were not expected to be OAD's. Giles who did not really play, Bolden and Tatum were expected to go, but not Jackson. Bolden stayed and surprisingly Jackson did not. We really don't know who is leaving this year other than Bags and of course Grayson to graduation. If Carter, Trent and Duval all stay- crazy as that may be- then this is a rebuilding year and next year could be special. If they all go, Duke is a bunch of talented freshman with no big game experience again next year.

[Kjeffrey]

I think it is almost impossible for these freshmen to care as much about the rivalry as veterans do. But I think the bigger issue is that they just aren’t prepared for the effort/intensity that games like this require. And that is understandable. They are used to just being so much better than their opponents.

Hopefully at some point the light clicks on for them. That is the hope with a young team: that they grow up fast. UNC leaned heavily on their veterans, playing the you g guys very sparingly and rarely together. Having four junior/seniors on the floor is a big plus in games like this.

And let's hope tonight was a great learning experience for Round II in a few weeks.

[Troublemaker]

Here's Coach K's postgame presser in case anyone is tired of waiting for GoDuke to put it up:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/video/17324196/

[CoachJ10]

The staff knew full and well the guys we have playing right now will not be here next year. And they know the same about next year's crew.

I think it is fair to say we aren't starting 4 freshmen this year if Luke and Frank had stayed like they were expected to. Composition of this team would be very different.

Just wanted to underscore that OAD era is more layered than just a handful of top 10 recruits leaving after one year.

[CDu]

Hope they continue to grow. We'll get them back March 3rd in Cameron. I am really banking on these last two consecutive losses really lighting a fire under this team that is simply impossible to extinguish in March.

All we can do is hope so. It is tough that we have basically played .500 against top-75 teams at this point.

[RepoMan]

Ok, we're still waiting for the answer to my question.

Wait away. I confess to not having spent a lifetime coaching youth basketball players, and I don’t really have the expertise to explain why we have lost some games recently, other than to note that we played 2 top 20 teams and another team that evidently isn’t crappy and, you know, sometimes you lose.

But that wasn’t the point of my posts. My points were twofold.

First, anyone who questions their effort is doing so with really no basis. I would be stunned if each kid was not trying his very hardest to win. Have they experienced what it is like to play on the road for Duke at UNC with a house full of mouth-breathers yelling at them? No. Might this experience help them in the next big game when they face adversity? Yes. You do realize that you learn the most through such adversity, right?

Second, the idea that the reason we have lost some games lately is because of “poor coaching” is just stupid.

[jipops]

I like stats but I am referring to tonight’s game. That’s TONIGHTS GAME where Duval was + 9 for the 20 minutes he was on court.

Can he do better...Yes.

Is Duval the reason Duke lost? He wasn’t the only player that missed shots. He wasn’t the only player that has turnovers. I could go on...

Please explain with facts why you think he was the reason why Duke lost.

I don't think Duval is the reason we lost. As a group we were just bad. We got that 12 point lead, which would have been a lot more if any D was played, and we checked out.

Now based on some recent unwarranted twitter activity I wouldn't be surprised if Duval spends more time on the pine next game.

[jv001]

Yup, and I noted this in my post. When we actually forced UNC into a half court set, they scored twice in five attempts, once after we defended the initial set really well but gave up an offensive rebound. The issue is that we were slow getting back in transition too often, a result of our labored offense and playing very big.



This was a lot like the possessions down the stretch of the St. John's game. On the one you're talking about, UNC's Brooks got his hand on three different offensive rebounds to prolong the possession to nearly two minutes. Just a killer. But I thought Duval fouling out was ultimately the dagger.

A bit of trivia: From the time Duval reentered the game in the second half at 7:55 (at which point we stopped playing zone) until the time he fouled out at 3:59, UNC did not score. Score was 74-65 when he came in, 74-71 when he left. The rest is history.

Good catch. I like Duval's defense when he's engaged. His quickness is amazing. But in those almost 4 minutes, we only scored 6 points. We need Duval to be the point guard that get's everyone involved. Right now his best offense is getting the ball down court and going one on one before the defense gets set up. I really want him to be the complete point guard because if he does we would be the favorite to win it all. Well, in my opinion. GoDuke!

[CameronDuke]

All we can do is hope so. It is tough that we have basically played .500 against top-75 teams at this point.

Yeah I agree. Best wins thus far are against Michigan State in November on a neutral floor and at Miami (which was a great comeback win). Other than that - maybe beating FSU 100-93 at Cameron - Duke's wins thus far this season are meh with mainly at Clemson/vs Louisville/vs Cuse/vs UNC the last attempts for a somewhat good win. Still several opportunities for some decent wins (or more frustrating losses potentially). College Basketball is weird lol

[WHOneedsSOX]

Good catch. I like Duval's defense when he's engaged. His quickness is amazing. But in those almost 4 minutes, we only scored 6 points. We need Duval to be the point guard that get's everyone involved. Right now his best offense is getting the ball down court and going one on one before the defense gets set up. I really want him to be the complete point guard because if he does we would be the favorite to win it all. Well, in my opinion. GoDuke!

Duval has incredible length as well. Think I read he has a 7' wing span. Could see it too on that dunk he had where he cocked the ball back.

[CDu]

Currently 5-4 against the top-75 right now. We are competitive in all of them. But ultimately we have played close to .500 ball against tourney-caliber teams.

We have the talent to win it all. But we have to learn to play smarter and harder. Because talent alone isn’t going to win six straight neutral site games in March/April.

[dukelifer]

Forgot to coach? No.

That doesn’t mean he’s doing a good job with this team. Maybe’s not communicating with them in way that they understand and execute. Maybe he’s being stubborn and not adapting to them. He’s the damned GOAT, but I don’t know how you can watch this team play over the last three to four weeks and think they are well coached. They aren’t. What he’s doing isn’t working

4 weeks? The team played a great second half against UVA and a decent first half in this and the St John's game. They have been in a position to win most every game in the last two minutes- even tonight. At that point it is on the players. They have to execute. This team is not winning in winning time- they are not not holding on to leads at the end of the first half and playing well out of the locker room. In 2015- a switch went on. It could happen again or it could be a long off season. Just have to wait and see. But I am not ready to call out K when his teams are within a bucket or ahead with 2-3 minutes to go in most every game they play.

[OZ]

I am not going to even pretend that I know what the answer is. I only know what my perception is. This is a group that is talented and play hard... but not always together. I must confess I made the mistake of getting caught up in the press/rankings of these young people; and then I compounded that, by translating them into becoming equally successful college players. That just doesn't happen. TEAM is not something that is easily taught... it is a learned experience. I have expected too much too soon.
I'm beginning to realize this OAD concept is also a learning experience for me. A good TEAM takes a learned connection... knowing where your teammate is going to be. We don't have that and I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing to conclude, we probably won't. That doesn't mean that these kids are failures, playing with lack of effort or lack heart. It just means they haven't played enough at this level to learn the nuances of what it takes to be a TEAM. Maybe it will happen by the NCAAs, maybe it won't.
So, not to overlook this group, but to ask a question... how will next year be any different? The answer to that seems to leave us with two options... Relax and enjoy these special kids while we have them; and not be so overwhelmed by our expectations, that their efforts underwhelm us. Or...or... rethink things and be satisfied when we get three and four stars players that will stay around a while.
There are a few who have been overly critical of Duval. Try this; go back and put a freshman Berry on our team tonight. Then put a two or three year Duval on UNC's team. I suspect we would be talking about what a great point guard UNC had in Duval. EXPERIENCE counts at this level. I think that is being proven before our eyes.

[weezie]

Here's Coach K's postgame presser in case anyone is tired of waiting for GoDuke to put it up:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/video/17324196/

Well, Coach says it all. Gave too many second chances and that wears down whatever defense is being played. There's no mysterious ailment or issue, just bad execution, or the lack there of.
No transition game.

Oh well...next.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Ok, we're still waiting for the answer to my question

The other teams we are playing are filled with players who aren't paying for college either. There is no shame in losing to the team who is likely the best in the country right now. Then we lost to the suddenly hot Red Storm and our bitter rivals on the road.

Can Duke play better? Absolutely, but we are spoiled as fans. We have been so good for so long every time we lose it is magnified.

Let's not take our 19 wins thus far for granted. They weren't handed out like candy on Halloween but well-earned. Can't wait for Sunday.

[Furniture]

Well, Coach says it all. Gave too many second chances and that wears down whatever defense is being played.

I think he also said that Grayson handled the ball too much.

[CameronDuke]

I am not going to even pretend that I know what the answer is. I only know what my perception is. This is a group that is talented and play hard... but not always together. I must confess I made the mistake of getting caught up in the press/rankings of these young people; and then I compounded that, by translating them into becoming equally successful college players. That just doesn't happen. TEAM is not something that is easily taught... it is a learned experience. I have expected too much too soon.
I'm beginning to realize this OAD concept is also a learning experience for me. A good TEAM takes a learned connection... knowing where your teammate is going to be. We don't have that and I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing to conclude, we probably won't. That doesn't mean that these kids are failures, playing with lack of effort or lack heart. It just means they haven't played enough at this level to learn the nuances of what it takes to be a TEAM. Maybe it will happen by the NCAAs, maybe it won't.
So, not to overlook this group, but to ask a question... how will next year be any different? The answer to that seems to leave us with two options... Relax and enjoy these special kids while we have them; and not be so overwhelmed by our expectations, that their efforts underwhelm us. Or...or... rethink things and be satisfied when we get three and four stars players that will stay around a while.
There are a few who have been overly critical of Duval. Try this; go back and put a freshman Berry on our team tonight. Then put a two or three year Duval on UNC's team. I suspect we would be talking about what a great point guard UNC had in Duval. EXPERIENCE counts at this level. I think that is being proven before our eyes.

I agree. Experience is everything at this level. Talent is great too. My question is why can't Duke land talent (5 star recruits) that hang around as much as others, like Roy? Allen is an exception. I will always love the kid for coming back. Bolden was a 5 star and returned this year, but I think that was mainly because he was hurt last year and didn't get to showcase his skills as much. Other than that, Duke doesn't have many 5 stars that have stuck around past their freshmen year lately. They certainly have more one and dones than the former. The landscape of college basketball is changing. I agree with that. But take a look around. There are many programs with more 5 stars that stay longer than the average 5 star stays at Duke. Like, Pinson and Berry were both higher rated recruits than Allen. Both are still there. Pinson was actually rated higher than Winslow in most spots. How does Roy keep 5 star talent around so much longer, on average, than Coach K, in recent years? I realize the cheating scandal so some may say he cheats but I'm not too big a homer to believe or buy into that.

[CoachJ10]

Works both ways. I don’t think they expected Allen and Bolden to still be here.

When you recruit four top-15 recruits, you have to expect that most, if not all, will be one-and-done.

I dont think we have Duval or even Bagley if Frank and Luke are back. But the point is, just like the Tyus and Justise comments...I dont think the coaches expected ALL the OADs that they have had. It has definitely created a lot more discontinuity than the staff expected.

[Furniture]

Ok, we're still waiting for the answer to my question

The other teams we are playing are filled with players who aren't paying for college either. There is no shame in losing to the team who is likely the best in the country right now. Then we lost to the suddenly hot Red Storm and our bitter rivals on the road.

Can Duke play better? Absolutely, but we are spoiled as fans. We have been so good for so long every time we lose it is magnified.

Let's not take our 19 wins thus far for granted. They weren't handed out like candy on Halloween but well-earned. Can't wait for Sunday.

I hate Entitlement and this forum is full of it. I wonder sometimes if some of the posters here have ever played competitive team sports. It’s crazy. So much is in the mind. Those that have played will know what I mean...

[CDu]

I dont think we have Duval or even Bagley if Frank and Luke are back. But the point is, just like the Tyus and Justise comments...I dont think the coaches expected ALL the OADs that they have had. It has definitely created a lot more discontinuity than the staff expected.

They didn’t lose them all. They lost three. And that should have been expected.

[ncexnyc]

Wait away. I confess to not having spent a lifetime coaching youth basketball players, and I don’t really have the expertise to explain why we have lost some games recently, other than to note that we played 2 top 20 teams and another team that evidently isn’t crappy and, you know, sometimes you lose.

But that wasn’t the point of my posts. My points were twofold.

First, anyone who questions their effort is doing so with really no basis. I would be stunned if each kid was not trying his very hardest to win. Have they experienced what it is like to play on the road for Duke at UNC with a house full of mouth-breathers yelling at them? No. Might this experience help them in the next big game when they face adversity? Yes. You do realize that you learn the most through such adversity, right?

Second, the idea that the reason we have lost some games lately is because of “poor coaching” is just stupid.
Thanks for the response.

I guess the questions some people might have with the coaching of this team is, "Who is responsible for getting this supposedly awesome collection of talent to play to their maximum ability?"
And "Why hasn't a defensive scheme been implemented that takes advantage of our players skillsets?"

On the topic of effort. I guess a number of people are wondering, "Why does it appear the obvious OAD players aren't as willing to go to the floor or dive out of bounds for a loose ball?" I'm also curious and this is something that actually bothers me is, "How many times do we have to face adversity, before we finally learn our lesson?" I mean it only takes a child one time to put their hand on a hot stove burner before they learn never to do that again. "What's up with this team?" It's not like basketball is a new sport for them.

[jv001]

Well, Coach says it all. Gave too many second chances and that wears down whatever defense is being played. There's no mysterious ailment or issue, just bad execution, or the lack there of.
No transition game.

Oh well...next.

Coach was classy as usual. Said that Bolden and Alex played well. Gave the cheats lot's of credit especially their offensive rebounding. Said the team played awful at the beginning of the 2nd half. He said the team did not execute what was drawn up for the start of the 2nd half. He also said the team played harder and more together tonight. GoDuke!

[weezie]

...the idea that the reason we have lost some games lately is because of “poor coaching” is just stupid.

Couldn't agree more. We make our comments here mostly in hindsight with the advantage of being able to watch the game in slo-mo repeat.

One of K's biggest strengths is not caring what other people outside that huddle think. Just keeps coaching and teaching, that's what he does.

[Troublemaker]

Duke has had 1-2 OAD's who start the year. Winslow and Jones (who would be our senior pt guard this year) were not expected to be OAD's. Giles who did not really play, Bolden and Tatum were expected to go, but not Jackson. Bolden stayed and surprisingly Jackson did not. We really don't know who is leaving this year other than Bags and of course Grayson to graduation. If Carter, Trent and Duval all stay- crazy as that may be- then this is a rebuilding year and next year could be special. If they all go, Duke is a bunch of talented freshman with no big game experience again next year.

Yeah, I wouldn't hold out hope for those three returning.

One thing I like about next year's team -- not that I'm giving up on this year -- is that they're more in Coach K's wheelhouse. A cerebral PG (Tyus Jones' brother even!) and 3 talented versatile wings sounds like more his bag of chips. I do think Coach K is having some trouble maximizing two bigs, a shaky point guard, and no versatile NBA SF-type. So, even though I've gone back and forth about this a bunch of times (not necessarily on DBR), I do think next season is probably going to produce a better team than this season. BUT, no one really wants to hear that right now. I'll shut up about it and focus on this year's team, which probably still has a ceiling that it hasn't reached yet.

[robed deity]

I don't think Duval is the reason we lost. As a group we were just bad. We got that 12 point lead, which would have been a lot more if any D was played, and we checked out.

Now based on some recent unwarranted twitter activity I wouldn't be surprised if Duval spends more time on the pine next game.

It WAS awesome, but retweeting (immediately afterwards) a play from the game you just lost to your archrival is a little odd. Of course, I might be being overly sensitive/critical.

[jv001]

Yeah, I wouldn't hold out hope for those three returning.

One thing I like about next year's team -- not that I'm giving up on this year -- is that they're more in Coach K's wheelhouse. A cerebral PG (Tyus Jones' brother even!) and 3 talented versatile wings sounds like more his bag of chips. I do think Coach K is having some trouble maximizing two bigs, a shaky point guard, and no versatile NBA SF-type. So, even though I've gone back and forth about this a bunch of times (not necessarily on DBR), I do think next season is probably going to produce a better team than this season. BUT, no one really wants to hear that right now. I'll shut up about it and focus on this year's team, which probably still has a ceiling that it hasn't reached yet.

Must spread some sporks. Great post. I agree that Coach is better suited for the team you described. He also likes the 3 ball and our current team is not a great shooting 3 team. It's built around two very good inside players with another couple of bigs coming off the bench. I know live by the 3 and die by the 3 but it's worked in the past. Now let's get this team up to par and get to the FF. GoDuke!

[CoachJ10]

They didn’t lose them all. They lost three. And that should have been expected.

So losing Tyus, Justise, Frank and Luke earlier than expected didn't affect our team composition? I am just trying to make clear that the frustration at the “OAD” model is not straightforward because we had a lot more guys leave early than the staff was planning on. It has had a ripple effect that clouds the recent recruiting assessment.

[KandG]

Here's Coach K's postgame presser in case anyone is tired of waiting for GoDuke to put it up:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/video/17324196/

Thanks for this, as usual. Most interesting here (especially for those critical of the coaching) is that K said the team didn't execute what was diagrammed to start the second half, and this resulted in confusion, and aided UNC's huge run to begin the half. Duval was definitely all over the place, which is why he ended up sitting for 7 minutes.

Thought it was also interesting that he said it was easier for UNC to defend Grayson well because they knew where he was since he had to handle the ball (rather than play off it). Again, this emphasizes the importance of Duval having to play a little smarter so that he can keep himself in the game longer, execute what the coaching staff wants, and get Grayson the kinds of looks he needs.

[proelitedota]

We're in the same position that UNC was in last season after the Duke UNC game. What's the big worry. They were 10th on Kenpom after the game.

[WHOneedsSOX]

It WAS awesome, but retweeting (immediately afterwards) a play from the game you just lost to your archrival is a little odd. Of course, I might be being overly sensitive/critical.

What did he retweet? His dunk? Kind of how the world is these days. Probably went straight to his phone after Coach K talked to the team and saw texts from his friends and his Twitter probably was blowing up with people mentioning him. Wouldn't really read too much into it. And like someone mentioned earlier, UNC is Duke's rival but I doubt the freshmen truly understand what the rivalry means.

[weezie]

An acquaintance is a big hole fan. She's sure to come at me tomorrow. But she's aging into looking like an old man. That's what I'll be silently yelling at her.

[jv001]

What did he retweet? His dunk? Kind of how the world is these days. Probably went straight to his phone after Coach K talked to the team and saw texts from his friends and his Twitter probably was blowing up with people mentioning him. Wouldn't really read too much into it. And like someone mentioned earlier, UNC is Duke's rival but I doubt the freshmen truly understand what the rivalry means.

If he did retweet his dunk, then this falls into lack of basketball IQ(on and off the court). I would like to know what Coach Nate James thinks of it or what would Battier, Christian, etc say to their team mate. GoDuke!

[RepoMan]

Thanks for the response.

I guess the questions some people might have with the coaching of this team is, "Who is responsible for getting this supposedly awesome collection of talent to play to their maximum ability?"

On the topic of effort. I guess a number of people are wondering, "Why does it appear the obvious OAD players aren't as willing to go to the floor or dive out of bounds for a loose ball?" .

It is totally fair to question specific coaching decisions. I am sure our coaches question their decisions after every game. Every winning decision maker second guesses their decisions. And then they try something else.

But that is way different than saying we are losing because of poor coaching. Honestly, who in the world would you rather have on our sideline? The very last thing on our list of problems is “coaching.”

And on effort, you are viewing it way too narrowly. Effort isn’t just measurable by Wojo-esque efforts to surpass your talent level by diving for balls. Individuals compete in different ways. Some are vocal. Some are demonstrative. Others lead by example. Etc. But to question someone’s heart? You better come with some real evidence. If I was a parent of one of the kids on this team, I am pretty sure I’d want to punch some of the people who question effort in the face.

Now, as CDu suggests, can they get tougher? Sure. Once you experience a game and a situation like this, you get a deeper appreciation for what is at stake and what it takes. Maybe your focus intensifies. But that surely does not mean that you failed to give max effort in this game

[duketaylor]

"How many losses did UConn have when they won the national title in 2014?"

What about the Cardiac Pack? 10 losses.

Stats that stood out to me (I missed the game due to work) were being outrebounded by several and unc had only two TOs to our (very reasonable) 8. Thoughts on those stats?

[AFL]

Never though I wouldn’t enjoy watching Duke basketball game, but this iteration is just hard to watch.

Weird.

I totally agree. For the first time in my life, I don't enjoy watching this Duke team play. I certainly root for them, but they are simply painful to watch.

[rdearth15]

The more I think about it the more I think it might be in the teams (and Grayson’s) best interest to come off the bench and when he comes in do nothing but hunt his shot. Bring him in with some sort of a second unit, while moving O’Connell into the starting lineup where scoring is predominantly done by our bigs.

Possibly a combination of:

Goldwire
Duval/Trent
Grayson
Jack White
Jav/Bolden

Let those guys play for about 4 minute stretches to give the freshman (at least some of them) some minutes to collect themselves and see the game flow from the bench. Run Grayson off of double screens and hunt his shot, whether that be a corner 3, curl for a mid range shot, or a catch and quick drive.

Grayson appears to be trying so hard to lead that we are losing what makes him a special college player. He isn’t a facilitator and it appears he tries to do that with the talented freshman bigs in the game . He is a slashing maniac with a jump shot.


I am not sure he knows how to play any other way. Evidence from the entire year last year (I know other issues of his last year played a role) and thus far this year point to this being a truth.

He averaged nearly 8 free throw attempts a game his sophomore year. Was the same slashing maniac as a freshman when he sparked us to a title.

Feels like for a good portion of this year he is lucky to get 2 free throw attempts a game.

He simply doesn’t have any room to operate with nothing being run for him and the post all clogged up.

So maybe we can unclog the lane, make him the focal point of a second unit, get the starters rest while he goes out there and tries to maintain the score of the game or extend a lead in our favor if he gets hot and the others come back in with a renewed focus and some coaching points given to them by the staff as they watch a short bit of the game.

In no means do I want this to sound like a negative post regarding playing time, coaching, or player production. It is simply an observation from a fan, like we all are, that never misses a second of any game.

Grayson is my favorite Duke player since JJ. I love his passion, heart, and grit and I just feel like some of that is being lost currently. We only get 9 more garaunteed games to enjoy his style of play and with the current state of college basketball it could be a while before we see another senior with his level of talent and success on a Duke team. I want to see the Grayson that I think many of us on this board fell in love with resurface for the short time he has left with the honor of wearing DUKE across his chest.


The loss tonight hurts.

The season isn’t over.

Their is plenty of work ahead, but I still have a feeling the GOAT has a wrinkle up his sleeve to get this going in the right direction at the right time. Maybe it’s the idea I posted here, most likely it is not, but I’ll be watching and rooting just as hard come Sunday.

Go Duke!!!!

[84Duke]

I hate Entitlement and this forum is full of it. I wonder sometimes if some of the posters here have ever played competitive team sports. It’s crazy. So much is in the mind. Those that have played will know what I mean...

Sorry, but complete [baloney]. Criticize Duke, and you never played competitive sports? That is a lame line to draw.

[jv001]

"How many losses did UConn have when they won the national title in 2014?"

What about the Cardiac Pack? 10 losses.

Stats that stood out to me (I missed the game due to work) were being outrebounded by several and unc had only two TOs to our (very reasonable) 8. Thoughts on those stats?

This year, the cheats are Duke like and Duke is unclike. We have the bigger team and the cheats rely on the 3 ball. They made 11 tonight with most in the first half. But they really won the game on the offensive boards. GoDuke!

[WHOneedsSOX]

It is totally fair to question specific coaching decisions. I am sure our coaches question their decisions after every game. Every winning decision maker second guesses their decisions. And then they try something else.

But that is way different than saying we are losing because of poor coaching. Honestly, who in the world would you rather have on our sideline? The very last thing on our list of problems is “coaching.”

And on effort, you are viewing it way too narrowly. Effort isn’t just measurable by Wojo-esque efforts to surpass your talent level by diving for balls. Individuals compete in different ways. Some are vocal. Some are demonstrative. Others lead by example. Etc. But to question someone’s heart? You better come with some real evidence. If I was a parent of one of the kids on this team, I am pretty sure I’d want to punch some of the people who question effort in the face.

Now, as CDu suggests, can they get tougher? Sure. Once you experience a game and a situation like this, you get a deeper appreciation for what is at stake and what it takes. Maybe your focus intensifies. But that surely does not mean that you failed to give max effort in this game

When I said poor effort right after the game I didn't mean they aren't giving any effort or aren't playing with heart. What I meant was giving a little extra effort. Maybe they're tired, maybe it's just not in their DNA to give a little extra effort. I don't know. Only they know. They're obviously playing very hard and obviously want to win very badly but they just aren't making the extra effort plays and that comes down to wanting it more. Steve Kerr said it in tonight's Warriors game and Draymond said it before the OKC game. "Defense and rebounding is effort." You can't tell me whoever was guarding Pinson in the 2nd half was giving their all in boxing him out. I think it comes down to Bagley and Carter getting so many rebounds that the guards sometimes forget to box out. Long shots, long rebounds. Pinson just wanted the ball more tonight because that's his role.

[wavedukefan70s]

"How many losses did UConn have when they won the national title in 2014?"

What about the Cardiac Pack? 10 losses.

Stats that stood out to me (I missed the game due to work) were being outrebounded by several and unc had only two TOs to our (very reasonable) 8. Thoughts on those stats?

I think it was 6 rebound difference.44 to 38 I believe.6 more turnovers for us and only 11 o rebounds.it was a combination of little things.i believe some calls at momentum killing times happened also.if we corrected a few things those wouldn't have mattered.

[ChillinDuke]

Trevon Duval has some great plays and some terrible plays. And he can't shoot from 3 or the stripe.

Mix it all together and I'm not sure the result helps this Duke team.

I know that there are a lot of defenders out there. And I certainly wouldn't label myself a detractor. But in a game like this Trevon was not helpful for us. The biggest stage. He needs to better understand his role as a point guard. When to drive and when not to. When to initiate into a post feed. When to push tempo. And he needs to be better at pressuring the ball on defense.

I'll root for him. But I'm not sure I like him on the floor anymore. We need balance, poise, and energy. As a collective group. We feel unbalanced, unpoised, and uninterested. Trevon may not even be the main culprit of these issues, but he may be the most efficient fix to them. That is, his removal from major minutes

- Chillin

ETA: I'm very disappointed in Grayson's senior season. He has heart, energy, and leadership. But his decision making on the court has been spotty much of the season. His shot has been spotty too. He is a great Duke player, but this season he has not been great. It's unfortunate, and you absolutely can't bench him and/or limit his role. But it's definitely a disappointment.

[Ian]

When Duke let them hang around in the first half I feared we were seeing a repeat. Does that crystal ball of yours project into March and April?

I hope to God I'm wrong but I see a March similar to 2016. We'll get past the first 2 rounds on talent but I have a hard time seeing this team win a grind it out game against a talented and experienced team in the SW16.

[jv001]

Trevon Duval has some great plays and some terrible plays. And he can't shoot from 3 or the stripe.

Mix it all together and I'm not sure the result helps this Duke team.

I know that there are a lot of defenders out there. And I certainly wouldn't label myself a detractor. But in a game like this Trevon was not helpful for us. The biggest stage. He needs to better understand his role as a point guard. When to drive and when not to. When to initiate into a post feed. When to push tempo. And he needs to be better at pressuring the ball on defense.

I'll root for him. But I'm not sure I like him on the floor anymore. We need balance, poise, and energy. As a collective group. We feel unbalanced, unpoised, and uninterested. Trevon may not even be the main culprit of these issues, but he may be the most efficient fix to them. That is, his removal from major minutes

- Chillin

Trevon may not be the biggest culprit but as the point guard for a team that has this much talent his play is the most important. So far, he's not done an adequate job of leading the team. but like you, I root hard for him every game and hope to see major improvement. I will be rooting for him next game. GoDuke!

[84Duke]

Duke has lost 4 games by 5 or fewer. And in every game, you could pinpoint Duval errors that cost them those 5 points. But you probably could do that for Grayson Allen, and Marvin Bagley too. Turnovers and missed opportunities. Throwing games away. Duval’s mistakes are more obvious. What worries me is that this team never seems to learn from their mistakes. And I am not sure they will ever learn, because they are the same mistakes, over and over again.

[ChillinDuke]

I hope to God I'm wrong but I see a March similar to 2016. We'll get past the first 2 rounds on talent but I have a hard time seeing this team win a grind it out game against a talented and experienced team in the SW16.

I tend to agree although I think we are more diversified than that year. It's just hard to envision this team beating back to back top 10-ish teams in the 16 and the 8. Let alone the 4 and the 2.

The defense needs to improve. I don't know what else to say, frankly. If the players don't get it then they don't get it. The offense needs to stay disciplined. At all times. Stop rushing into things. We're so good offensively I don't know why we accelerate haphazardly at times. And lastly, K needs to step up. He has messed up this season in terms of defining rotations. I never have any clue who will be the first guy off the bench. Jack White? JRob? Marques? Javin? Slim? Who the heck knows? That lack of consistency has hurt us. And then the decision to play 3 bigs today? C'mon. Look, I get it. We needed to find something. But that wasn't it. Slim needs to play minutes there. Trevon was not having a great game, UNC was relying heavily on outside shooting, and we needed more balance outside on 3s. Plus potentially an energy injection. Oh right, AND unc runs a system with a HEAVY dependency on secondary breaks and pushing tempo. So Marques Bolden there as the SF, right? It was obvious AOC time and we went with Bolden as a THIRD big man. An unacceptable coaching decision, IMO. Even the GOAT is human.

- Chillin

[Troublemaker]

Trevon Duval has some great plays and some terrible plays. And he can't shoot from 3 or the stripe.

Mix it all together and I'm not sure the result helps this Duke team.

I know that there are a lot of defenders out there. And I certainly wouldn't label myself a detractor. But in a game like this Trevon was not helpful for us. The biggest stage. He needs to better understand his role as a point guard. When to drive and when not to. When to initiate into a post feed. When to push tempo. And he needs to be better at pressuring the ball on defense.

I'll root for him. But I'm not sure I like him on the floor anymore. We need balance, poise, and energy. As a collective group. We feel unbalanced, unpoised, and uninterested. Trevon may not even be the main culprit of these issues, but he may be the most efficient fix to them. That is, his removal from major minutes

- Chillin

ETA: I'm very disappointed in Grayson's senior season. He has heart, energy, and leadership. But his decision making on the court has been spotty much of the season. His shot has been spotty too. He is a great Duke player, but this season he has not been great. It's unfortunate, and you absolutely can't bench him and/or limit his role. But it's definitely a disappointment.

I agree at this point with tinkering around with the PG position. I just don't want it to be Grayson because I agree with the preference Coach K expressed in the postgame presser for Grayson to play off the ball (and be a secondary ball-handler). Grayson's going to recover his scoring and shooting ability more easily by playing off ball.

That means it's JGold time for me. Start him and see if he can provide better risk management at the PG position. That doesn't mean we give up on Trevon. He still plays but he gets to earn his way back into a starting position, and maybe that demotion motivates or sparks something in him to get it done and play better. (One could look at it as the ultimate goal still being for Trevon to be the starting PG in March/April, but we're just going to take a different pathway to get there than the status quo.)