Obviously, it’s over

[OZZIE4DUKE]

We stunk yesterday. Nobody hustles, nobody tries, nobody leads. We can’t shoot, we can’t play defense. Woe is us. So obviously, the season is over. Pack it up guys, we’re turning in our season tickets, turning off our TV’s, and canceling our post season plans and making new ones to go on vacation.

Sheesh.

[bigperm13]

Been over since December 30 in Bradyland. Same as last year, except a day earlier. We'll be lucky to make it through fall exams next year.

[OldPhiKap]

Even Krzyzewskiville is closed.


I recall how Miami crushed us at home in ‘15 and our defense looked like it stayed home. And I’ll always remember the 20 point pasting we took from UNC in the ACCT final in ‘91.

No one can come back from things like that.

The Germans just bombed Pearl Harbor. Call it a season. Pitchers and catchers report soon.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

We stunk yesterday. Nobody hustles, nobody tries, nobody leads. We can’t shoot, we can’t play defense. Woe is us. So obviously, the season is over. Pack it up guys, we’re turning in our season tickets, turning off our TV’s, and canceling our post season plans and making new ones to go on vacation.

Sheesh.


Can I buy uncheats tix before you turn them in?

[Bob Green]

Great post, Ozzie! These disappointing losses happen most seasons and the overreaction on the board is nauseating. Georgetown blew us out in 2010; Clemson embarrassed us 74 - 47 on 2/4/2009. Those teams survived just like this team will survive losing yesterday to a St John's team we should have beat by 20 points. A wise old philosopher once said, "Stuff happens."

[Devilwin]

We stunk yesterday. Nobody hustles, nobody tries, nobody leads. We can’t shoot, we can’t play defense. Woe is us. So obviously, the season is over. Pack it up guys, we’re turning in our season tickets, turning off our TV’s, and canceling our post season plans and making new ones to go on vacation.

Sheesh.

No, it's not over by any means. But this team "shows its youth" from time to time. Most talented team in the country, and could win it all if they play together, cut turn overs down, and make free throws. And get Grayson back to his old reliable self. But there are issues, and we just got to figure them out and address them. I don't think it's panic time just yet. But yesterday's loss was, as Coach said, unacceptable.

[YmoBeThere]

No, it's not over by any means. But this team "shows its youth" from time to time. Most talented team in the country, and could win it all if they play together, cut turn overs down, and make free throws. And get Grayson back to his old reliable self. But there are issues, and we just got to figure them out and address them. I don't think it's panic time just yet. But yesterday's loss was, as Coach said, unacceptable.


Ahhh, the occasional cockeyed optimist will try and point out the error of our ways. There is still a chance! But there isn't. There is nothing, zip, nada, zilch. As Ozzie said, it's over. Don't fight the tide. Ride it to its inevitable end, a nice beach where you can stare out at the distant sea and pretend this season never existed.

[superdave]

When the going gets tough, pack it in!

In all seriousness, it is over. I read it on twitter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bHPjx7hfb4

[BD80]

I'd rather a loss yesterday than Thursday ...

[freshmanjs]

Great post, Ozzie! These disappointing losses happen most seasons and the overreaction on the board is nauseating. Georgetown blew us out in 2010; Clemson embarrassed us 74 - 47 on 2/4/2009. Those teams survived just like this team will survive losing yesterday to a St John's team we should have beat by 20 points. A wise old philosopher once said, "Stuff happens."

I'm not in favor of packing it in either. But, Georgetown was a good team in 2010. The 2009 team ended the season with a 2nd half that was just like that Clemson game. In fact, 2009 is a great example of the "disappointing loss" being exactly what people are concerned it is...a foreshadowing of the team's NCAA tournament performance.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Ozzie, you and your confounded pessimism!

I probably won't even turn on my TV next week...

[Bob Green]

In fact, 2009 is a great example of the "disappointing loss" being exactly what people are concerned it is...a foreshadowing of the team's NCAA tournament performance.

Yet the team still survived and won it all in 2010. Yeah, I know, different era...players came back for another go.

[SkyBrickey]

I heard Coach took away all their team-branded clothing and gear, locked them out of the locker room, is making them eat all their meals at the CI, and they've been running stadium stairs at Wally Wade twice a day with Sylvester Stallone. Goldwire, AOC, Jack White, Justin Robinson and Javin DeLaurier will start against the Heels. Back on track...

[MarkD83]

I'll bury these comments in this thread so that when we come back to earth they will disappear from the first page.

Each year there are major accomplishments (not goals or expectations) that I like to keep track of to see how Duke teams from different years compare. Sometimes these are more difficult than others given the unbalanced ACC schedule and who Duke plays in pre-season tournaments.

1. Beat unc twice
2. Undefeated home season
3. Beat all non-conference teams in the regular season (tournaments are separate)
4. Finish in the top part of the ACC to get the maximum number of byes in the ACC tournament
5. Win the ACC regular season
6. Win the ACC tournament
7. Earn a number 1 seed in the NCAA tournament
8. Sweet 16
9. Final 4
10. National championship

This has been a bad week as far as these accomplishments go since 2 and 3 are not attainable, 5 is mathematically still possible but not very probable and 7 is still possible but the probability is dropping fast.

This team can still accomplish a lot and of course attaining accomplishments 1, 6, 9 and 10 will always make it easier to forget any regular season losses.
So time to pick ourselves up and help this young team find its mojo again.

[YmoBeThere]

I heard Coach took away all their team-branded clothing and gear, locked them out of the locker room, is making them eat all their meals at the CI, and they've been running stadium stairs at Wally Wade twice a day with Sylvester Stallone. Goldwire, AOC, Jack White, Justin Robinson and Javin DeLaurier will start against the Heels. Back on track...

Vrank will obviously be the 6th man.

[slower]

I'd rather a loss yesterday than Thursday ...

One does not preclude the other. Not sure why people think it's a good bet Duke will win at UNC.

Look, I still think the team can make a run, but their possible outcomes are all over the map. I will say that I finally got to watch the Virginia game and they looked good - agree with others that it wasn't a "bad" loss. But there's nothing in their recent performance that gives me confidence in a win on Thursday.

And I'm sorry if the usual collection of optimists doesn't like the "negativity" - but that's what happens when a team under-performs relative to talent and expectations. And hype.

[dukelifer]

I heard Coach took away all their team-branded clothing and gear, locked them out of the locker room, is making them eat all their meals at the CI, and they've been running stadium stairs at Wally Wade twice a day with Sylvester Stallone. Goldwire, AOC, Jack White, Justin Robinson and Javin DeLaurier will start against the Heels. Back on track...

Sadly no CI and the new configuration of WW makes stair running much more challenging. The more likely punishment is that K will get OIT to take away their internet access. You will see a change in attitude fast.

[BD80]

One does not preclude the other. Not sure why people think it's a good bet Duke will win at UNC.

Look, I still think the team can make a run, but their possible outcomes are all over the map.


Got it. Probabilities and possibilities.

Some of us look for the positives, and are looking to avoid or make fun of the doomsday negativity.

Go post the negatives in the post-game thread.


As for why the loss Saturday makes the win Thursday more likely: a bunch of 18-20 y/o kids being coached by the GOAT.

[slower]

Go post the negatives in the post-game thread.



Thanks, but I'll post them wherever I want.

[PackMan97]

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

You guys still have to play the evil empire twice, don't give up yet. Not to mention kids these days have short memories, they'll put this loss behind them and probably win out, win the ACCT and NCAAT...but if you do decide to give up, NC State is making space for all of y'all on our bandwagon. Hop aboard!

[YmoBeThere]

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Ja war es! Ich kann ein bisschen Deutsch verstehen!

That wouldn't have happened if it wasn't over then!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Thanks, but I'll post them wherever I want.

Come on man. Don't be that guy.

[Furniture]

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

You guys still have to play the evil empire twice, don't give up yet. Not to mention kids these days have short memories, they'll put this loss behind them and probably win out, win the ACCT and NCAAT...but if you do decide to give up, NC State is making space for all of y'all on our bandwagon. Hop aboard!


Over? Did you say over? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! And it aint over now! Cause when the going gets tough. The tough get goin'. Who's with me?"

[PackMan97]

Ja war es! Ich kann ein bisschen Deutsch verstehen!

That wouldn't have happened if it wasn't over then!

Der einzige Deutsche, den ich kenne, ist "Geh zu Hades Carolina". Ich kann 9f in jeder Sprache sprechen.

shout out to to google translate :)

[kshepinthehouse]

Got it. Probabilities and possibilities.

Some of us look for the positives, and are looking to avoid or make fun of the doomsday negativity.

Go post the negatives in the post-game thread.


As for why the loss Saturday makes the win Thursday more likely: a bunch of 18-20 y/o kids being coached by the GOAT.

For whatever it’s worth KenPom has Duke as the favorite at 51%.

[devilsince1977]

For whatever it’s worth KenPom has Duke as the favorite at 51%.

I hope the team doesn't look at KenPom.

[kshepinthehouse]

I hope the team doesn't look at KenPom.

I hope the team doesn’t take UNC lightly like they seemingly did St Johns. They are in for a dog fight against UNC

[DukeDevilDeb]

Every one of you who thought Ozzie's post was serious and he is truly giving up on the team, go away! He is being facetious (one of two words in the English language that contains all 5 vowels in order!). Those of us who have been going to games for a long time (31 years for me) can predict the reactions of the "newer" Devils... and that's all Ozzie was doing.

As he said, "Sheesh!"

[CameronBornAndBred]

He is being facetious (one of two words in the English language that contains all 5 vowels in order!).
Don't leave us hanging! What's the other one?

[freshmanjs]

Every one of you who thought Ozzie's post was serious and he is truly giving up on the team, go away! He is being facetious (one of two words in the English language that contains all 5 vowels in order!). Those of us who have been going to games for a long time (31 years for me) can predict the reactions of the "newer" Devils... and that's all Ozzie was doing.

As he said, "Sheesh!"

Nobody thought that.

[CDu]

Don't leave us hanging! What's the other one?

There are more than two. Questionable. Equivocal. Unquestionable. Unequivocal. And so on...

Oops, missed the last part of the prior post. Nevermind.

Abstemious, arsenious, abstentious.

[devilsince1977]

Every one of you who thought Ozzie's post was serious and he is truly giving up on the team, go away! He is being facetious (one of two words in the English language that contains all 5 vowels in order!). Those of us who have been going to games for a long time (31 years for me) can predict the reactions of the "newer" Devils... and that's all Ozzie was doing.

As he said, "Sheesh!"

Don't assume to know what I was thinking. I knew it was sarcastic from the first word. I also agree with the KenPom ranking. I just don't want the team thinking they can phone it in until March and then turn it on. The lack of focus, intensity, and grit was alarming yesterday.

[Wander]

I'm not in favor of packing it in either. But, Georgetown was a good team in 2010. The 2009 team ended the season with a 2nd half that was just like that Clemson game. In fact, 2009 is a great example of the "disappointing loss" being exactly what people are concerned it is...a foreshadowing of the team's NCAA tournament performance.

Was going to say the exact same thing. I still think we can win the national title, but if we do, it will be with the worst losses of any of the Duke championship teams. So I don't know that this sort of comparison is super confidence-inspiring.

[curtis325]

We stunk yesterday. Nobody hustles, nobody tries, nobody leads. We can’t shoot, we can’t play defense. Woe is us. So obviously, the season is over. Pack it up guys, we’re turning in our season tickets, turning off our TV’s, and canceling our post season plans and making new ones to go on vacation.

Sheesh.

Chin up, there's always next year!

[slower]

Come on man. Don't be that guy.
Not trying to "be that guy."

Just fed up with people telling other people how they should feel. Humans are emotional beings - and not everybody is a Pollyanna.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Not trying to "be that guy."

Just fed up with people telling other people how they should feel. Humans are emotional beings - and not everybody is a Pollyanna.

There are literally dozens of Debbie Downer threads on the board right now. You can be yourself all you want over there without bringing the positivist fans down.

[freshmanjs]

There are literally dozens of Debbie Downer threads on the board right now. You can be yourself all you want over there without bringing the positivist fans down.

Literally dozens? I can’t find them. The post game thread is arguably one (although has a mix of views). I don’t see any others.

[dukelifer]

Not trying to "be that guy."

Just fed up with people telling other people how they should feel. Humans are emotional beings - and not everybody is a Pollyanna.

Look I am with you, Coach K is with you but even today- I feel a bit better only to build to the anxiety of Thursday- where none of us have any idea what is going to happen- from the worst possible feeling of Duke getting blown out to Duke hitting on all cylinders. The nature of the basketball season.

[fuse]

Don't leave us hanging! What's the other one?

Timely answer courtesy of Haggard Hawks:

ANEMIOUS also contains every vowel in alphabetical order.

[rsvman]

Timely answer courtesy of Haggard Hawks:

ANEMIOUS also contains every vowel in alphabetical order.

I didn't know that word, but it perfectly describes the golf course I most frequently play.

[OldPhiKap]

“Stewardesses” iand “sweater dresses” are the longest common nouns you can type with just your left hand.

Don’t ask me how I learned that.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Maybe our coaching staff is so obsessively involved with recruiting next year’s (and the next year’s) batch of one-year wonders that they haven’t had the time to give proper attention to making this year’s group into a team that works well together.

[tteettimes]

I didn't know that word, but it perfectly describes the golf course I most frequently play.

😂😂 I’ve played that course so many times. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[CameronBornAndBred]

There are more than two. Questionable. Equivocal. Unquestionable. Unequivocal. And so on...

Oops, missed the last part of the prior post. Nevermind.

Abstemious, Arsenious, abstentious.
Whatever happened to that guy? He was pretty funny.

[Emerrick]

Maybe our coaching staff is so obsessively involved with recruiting next year’s (and the next year’s) batch of one-year wonders that they haven’t had the time to give proper attention to making this year’s group into a team that works well together.

Wow. That’s some anger.

Although the goal is a national championship, if you really appreciate basketball, you have to love these OADs. They are special and a delight to watch - even with a crappy loss yesterday. I NEED another championship shirt. Mine are getting a little tattered. With that said, I generally love watching this team play ball. They are some kind of special. The season isn’t over - enjoy the ride because it’ll be over one way or the other all too soon. I look forward to seeing how it ends.

And when the Coach K era is over... well... you probably won’t have to worry about as many OADs.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Although the goal is a national championship, if you really appreciate basketball, you have to love these OADs. They are special and a delight to watch .

I so strongly disagree with this. I don't love them, and I don't have to, and when at this point in the season they haven't become a working team, they are not a delight to watch. I don't want to be delighted watching a bunch of guys that I will have forgotten about in 2 years lose.
It's one thing when they are fresh and new and it is November. They ARE great, and they ARE fun...but the time for appreciating them as talented individuals is over and it now past time to appreciate them as a team. I hope they make it happen this season, but I am losing optimism and further becoming disenfranchised with our teams as Coach K continues pursuing this model.
It gets harder every year to get excited, and it is becoming habitual watching our teams not live up to expectations.
That is my honest opinion. And it's a tough one for me personally to swallow. Shout out 2010 and 2015 all you want, but both years were vastly different, relying on at least a modicum of experience. The years in between are becoming far more the norm.

Edit..to the point of this thread, I love Ozzie's sarcasm and will always love his never ending optimism. Perfect way to put a smile on us after an ugly loss.

[mgtr]

Whatever happened to that guy? He was pretty funny.

I hear he was sent to hell.

OOps, meant to type hall.

[Ian]

I so strongly disagree with this. I don't love them, and I don't have to, and when at this point in the season they haven't become a working team, they are not a delight to watch. I don't want to be delighted watching a bunch of guys that I will have forgotten about in 2 years lose.
It's one thing when they are fresh and new and it is November. They ARE great, and they ARE fun...but the time for appreciating them as talented individuals is over and it now past time to appreciate them as a team. I hope they make it happen this season, but I am losing optimism and further becoming disenfranchised with our teams as Coach K continues pursuing this model.
It gets harder every year to get excited, and it is becoming habitual watching our teams not live up to expectations.
That is my honest opinion. And it's a tough one for me personally to swallow. Shout out 2010 and 2015 all you want, but both years were vastly different, relying on at least a modicum of experience. The years in between are becoming far more the norm.

Edit..to the point of this thread, I love Ozzie's sarcasm and will always love his never ending optimism. Perfect way to put a smile on us after an ugly loss.

I'm with you. Honestly if I just wanted to be amazed at some of the spectaculars plays they make they don't have to play for Duke for me to appreciate it. I watched one of the Oklahoma's games and enjoyed watching Trae Young just fine. But when they play for Duke winning is more important that jaw dropping plays.

P.S. Looking at the nbadraft.net mock drafts for this year and next, I notice that there is just one single player on either 1st round list for that plays for the current top 3 teams in Kenpom rankings. Bridges for Villanova, who is a junior. Not other players from Nova, not a single player from Virginia or Purdue. There is another couple of 2nd rounders from Nova, UVA and Purdue don't even have a 2nd rounder in either list. Make of that what you will.

[Rich]

I so strongly disagree with this. I don't love them, and I don't have to, and when at this point in the season they haven't become a working team, they are not a delight to watch. I don't want to be delighted watching a bunch of guys that I will have forgotten about in 2 years lose.
It's one thing when they are fresh and new and it is November. They ARE great, and they ARE fun...but the time for appreciating them as talented individuals is over and it now past time to appreciate them as a team. I hope they make it happen this season, but I am losing optimism and further becoming disenfranchised with our teams as Coach K continues pursuing this model.
It gets harder every year to get excited, and it is becoming habitual watching our teams not live up to expectations.
That is my honest opinion. And it's a tough one for me personally to swallow. Shout out 2010 and 2015 all you want, but both years were vastly different, relying on at least a modicum of experience. The years in between are becoming far more the norm.

Edit..to the point of this thread, I love Ozzie's sarcasm and will always love his never ending optimism. Perfect way to put a smile on us after an ugly loss.


I'm with you. Honestly if I just wanted to be amazed at some of the spectaculars plays they make they don't have to play for Duke for me to appreciate it. I watched one of the Oklahoma's games and enjoyed watching Trae Young just fine. But when they play for Duke winning is more important that jaw dropping plays.

P.S. Looking at the nbadraft.net mock drafts for this year and next, I notice that there is just one single player on either 1st round list for that plays for the current top 3 teams in Kenpom rankings. Bridges for Villanova, who is a junior. Not other players from Nova, not a single player from Virginia or Purdue. There is another couple of 2nd rounders from Nova, UVA and Purdue don't even have a 2nd rounder in either list. Make of that what you will.

Why does every thread need to turn into a commentary on the Duke one-and-done system? I think most fans (at least on this Board) would prefer 3-4 year players that we can watch grow. I sure do. Don't we all understand that at this point without making it a source of commentary of almost every damn thread? This thread was obviously started by Ozzie as a sarcastic commentary on yesterday's game. It sucked. I was there with my 86 year old dad and my 15 year old son and guess what. It still sucked. We had sucky games when we had all 4 year guys too. But it was one freaking basketball game, not even a freaking ACC basketball game, in the middle of a long season.

If you don't like Coach K's recruiting philosophy then the simplest thing to do would be to root for another team. You don't HAVE to be a Duke men's basketball fan if you think Virginia or Villanova or some other program does it better or is more admirable. You don't HAVE to be a Coach K fan if you think he should recruit differently. Nobody's forcing you. But if you still have a soft spot in your heart for Duke basketball and can't live without rooting for them, then there are plenty of other places to complain. Heck, start your own "Duke basketball drives me nuts and I want to vent" thread on DBR. Or if you really have a lot to say, start your own blog as to why one-and-done sucks.

I just don't see why every single thread has to converge into a commentary of one-and-done and the fact that Duke has embraced it. Are people so needy for others' to agree that they need to mention it every chance they get? Sheesh, I'm so tired of it. I can't be alone, can I?

[Troublemaker]

I'm with you. Honestly if I just wanted to be amazed at some of the spectaculars plays they make they don't have to play for Duke for me to appreciate it. I watched one of the Oklahoma's games and enjoyed watching Trae Young just fine. But when they play for Duke winning is more important that jaw dropping plays.

P.S. Looking at the nbadraft.net mock drafts for this year and next, I notice that there is just one single player on either 1st round list for that plays for the current top 3 teams in Kenpom rankings. Bridges for Villanova, who is a junior. Not other players from Nova, not a single player from Virginia or Purdue. There is another couple of 2nd rounders from Nova, UVA and Purdue don't even have a 2nd rounder in either list. Make of that what you will.

What happens when you look at the roster of the very next team in kenpom's rankings, whoever it is at #4?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Why does every thread need to turn into a commentary on the Duke one-and-done system?
Unfortunately because it is a valid point of contention for many die hard Duke fans, like myself.

[BD80]

Unfortunately because it is a valid point of contention for many die hard Duke fans, like myself.

So you try to convince the rest of us to what? Stop rooting for Duke if the team has one or more OADS?

We get your point. Each and every time. Repeatedly. Unceasingly.

Some of us just like to be free of the negativity, and enjoy supporting the team as assembled.

You have a right to express your opinion, that doesn't mean you have an obligation or imperative to express your opinion when the mere expression negatively impacts others. Particularly when it has been expressed oh so many times already.

[OldPhiKap]

Someone upthread said that “you gotta love OADs” or some such. CB&B responded to that. He did not just inject it into the thread for funzies.

[BD80]

Someone upthread said that “you gotta love OADs” or some such. CB&B responded to that. He did not just inject it into the thread for funzies.


... if you really appreciate basketball, you have to love these OADs. They are special and a delight to watch ...


Niagara Falls? Slowly I turned, and step by step ...

There must be some reasonable, rational limit to proportionality of response. "You have to love THESE OADs" was not an opening salvo for the OAD debate, particularly for the rant that ensued. We are just trying to look on the bright side.

For goodness sakes, give us one thread.

[CameronBornAndBred]

So you try to convince the rest of us to what? Stop rooting for Duke if the team has one or more OADS?
We get your point. Each and every time. Repeatedly. Unceasingly.


LOL!!!!! I have never voiced my opinion on the OAD's once in this forum until today. It is one that I have chosen to keep to myself, until today. And I said that it is MY opinion, and one that I wish I didn't have. Thanks for reading my post so many times that it counted for several.

[Matches]

Why does every thread need to turn into a commentary on the Duke one-and-done system?

Every game we lose is a referendum on OADs. The games we win are anomalies. You just can't get to FFs and win NCAATs with teams that are heavily reliant on freshmen, because that's how it the two most recent titlists did it. The teams that actually DID win with freshman-dominated teams were anomalies who were lucky to win; the experienced teams that won it did so because it was fated.

Games we lose are also lost because of fatigue and the lack of bench minutes. Games we win are won in spite of fatigue and the lack of bench minutes. If a player plays poorly at the end of a game it is because of fatigue. If a player plays poorly in a game during the second half of the season, it is because he played too many minutes in earlier games and is tired. Also he is probably sick, but mostly tired.

Our bench players get better by getting more game reps and being allowed to play through mistakes. The starters only get tired from playing more minutes, and should be pulled in favor of the bench players when they play poorly.

If we don't play zone all or most of the game, we should have. If we play zone part of the game and it works, this is proof that we should have played zone sooner. If we play zone and it is ineffective, this is proof that we should play more zone so we can be better at it.

Also it is fine that we lost to inferior teams because the 2010 and 2015 teams also lost to lesser competition, which means this team probably will finish with the same result.

:) As a fanbase, we're pretty much a mess whenever we lose a game (me included).

[mgtr]

Every game we lose is a referendum on OADs. The games we win are anomalies. You just can't get to FFs and win NCAATs with teams that are heavily reliant on freshmen, because that's how it the two most recent titlists did it. The teams that actually DID win with freshman-dominated teams were anomalies who were lucky to win; the experienced teams that won it did so because it was fated.

Games we lose are also lost because of fatigue and the lack of bench minutes. Games we win are won in spite of fatigue and the lack of bench minutes. If a player plays poorly at the end of a game it is because of fatigue. If a player plays poorly in a game during the second half of the season, it is because he played too many minutes in earlier games and is tired. Also he is probably sick, but mostly tired.

Our bench players get better by getting more game reps and being allowed to play through mistakes. The starters only get tired from playing more minutes, and should be pulled in favor of the bench players when they play poorly.

If we don't play zone all or most of the game, we should have. If we play zone part of the game and it works, this is proof that we should have played zone sooner. If we play zone and it is ineffective, this is proof that we should play more zone so we can be better at it.

Also it is fine that we lost to inferior teams because the 2010 and 2015 teams also lost to lesser competition, which means this team probably will finish with the same result.

:) As a fanbase, we're pretty much a mess whenever we lose a game (me included).






Wow, you just summarized 90% of the entire board this season! Well done.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Every game we lose is a referendum on OADs. The games we win are anomalies. You just can't get to FFs and win NCAATs with teams that are heavily reliant on freshmen, because that's how it the two most recent titlists did it. The teams that actually DID win with freshman-dominated teams were anomalies who were lucky to win; the experienced teams that won it did so because it was fated.

Games we lose are also lost because of fatigue and the lack of bench minutes. Games we win are won in spite of fatigue and the lack of bench minutes. If a player plays poorly at the end of a game it is because of fatigue. If a player plays poorly in a game during the second half of the season, it is because he played too many minutes in earlier games and is tired. Also he is probably sick, but mostly tired.

Our bench players get better by getting more game reps and being allowed to play through mistakes. The starters only get tired from playing more minutes, and should be pulled in favor of the bench players when they play poorly.

If we don't play zone all or most of the game, we should have. If we play zone part of the game and it works, this is proof that we should have played zone sooner. If we play zone and it is ineffective, this is proof that we should play more zone so we can be better at it.

Also it is fine that we lost to inferior teams because the 2010 and 2015 teams also lost to lesser competition, which means this team probably will finish with the same result.

:) As a fanbase, we're pretty much a mess whenever we lose a game (me included).

Wake me up in April

[Kedsy]

But when they play for Duke winning is more important that jaw dropping plays.

The team is 19-4. Lighten up, Francis.

[Devilwin]

The team is 19-4. Lighten up, Francis.

Very true, 19-4. I will say, however, that the fact that 3 of those losses were to unranked teams has to be of no small concern to Duke fans. And, we should have beaten UVA too, but a pitiful first half doomed us. I agree it's not time to panic, but a couple more like Saturday it will be.

[Rich]

Very true, 19-4. I will say, however, that the fact that 3 of those losses were to unranked teams has to be of no small concern to Duke fans. And, we should have beaten UVA too, but a pitiful first half doomed us. I agree it's not time to panic, but a couple more like Saturday it will be.

I don't remember panicking and feeling any more disconsolate about the rest of the season than when Boozer broke his foot. In light of how that season ended, I've never felt it's worth the energy to panic. I feel annoyed and upset over stupid losses, but no longer panic. As bad as things seem, there's always the possibility of turning things around in the tournament.

[Devilwin]

I don't remember panicking and feeling any more disconsolate about the rest of the season than when Boozer broke his foot. In light of how that season ended, I've never felt it's worth the energy to panic. I feel annoyed and upset over stupid losses, but no longer panic. As bad as things seem, there's always the possibility of turning things around in the tournament.

Valid point. Last year, we did come together and won the ACC Tournament. That being said, that team was much more experienced than this year's addition.
Let's just hope K blistered their butts good in practice this week and this Thursday night lay a good effort against the Heels, and come away with a huge win.

[CDu]

I don't remember panicking and feeling any more disconsolate about the rest of the season than when Boozer broke his foot. In light of how that season ended, I've never felt it's worth the energy to panic. I feel annoyed and upset over stupid losses, but no longer panic. As bad as things seem, there's always the possibility of turning things around in the tournament.

The 2001 season is one of the most amazing seasons in history, to have such a key player go down so late in the season, at a position where we had no depth, and still manage to win. While that was an amazing experience (and my senior year!), I don't think we should hold that as evidence that things will be gravy in the future.

As for this team, my biggest concern is that we've continued a nearly season-long theme of not being dialed in for 40 minutes. Now, we have enough talent that this has only been a concern in about 8-10 games this year, as the talent difference has been great enough to not matter in the others. We are 8-4 against the top-100, and three of those wins came against a severely-depleted Notre Dame team and two low-major schools. And we had to make furious comebacks in several of those wins (Texas, UF, FSU, Miami).

For whatever reason, this team hasn't managed to stay engaged for 40 minutes of basketball very often this year. I had hoped that the loss at State was the turning point in that regard, and from a defensive perspective it at least seemed believable (we had been fantastic defensively over the previous 7 games). But even looking back at those games, we had huge stretches of blah against UVa and Miami (the other schools were just overmatched). And then the team wasn't dialed in on Saturday.

Maybe this latest loss is the light-switch moment to get this group motivated the rest of the way. Maybe they need the bright lights of the tourneys to get them going. But the team has pretty consistently had to turn it on late to win (or lose close) this season, due to whatever reason. I think it's absolutely valid to wonder if this team will figure it out.

[jv001]

The 2001 season is one of the most amazing seasons in history, to have such a key player go down so late in the season, at a position where we had no depth, and still manage to win. While that was an amazing experience (and my senior year!), I don't think we should hold that as evidence that things will be gravy in the future.

As for this team, my biggest concern is that we've continued a nearly season-long theme of not being dialed in for 40 minutes. Now, we have enough talent that this has only been a concern in about 8-10 games this year, as the talent difference has been great enough to not matter in the others. We are 8-4 against the top-100, and three of those wins came against a severely-depleted Notre Dame team and two low-major schools. And we had to make furious comebacks in several of those wins (Texas, UF, FSU, Miami).

For whatever reason, this team hasn't managed to stay engaged for 40 minutes of basketball very often this year. I had hoped that the loss at State was the turning point in that regard, and from a defensive perspective it at least seemed believable (we had been fantastic defensively over the previous 7 games). But even looking back at those games, we had huge stretches of blah against UVa and Miami (the other schools were just overmatched). And then the team wasn't dialed in on Saturday.

Maybe this latest loss is the light-switch moment to get this group motivated the rest of the way. Maybe they need the bright lights of the tourneys to get them going. But the team has pretty consistently had to turn it on late to win (or lose close) this season, due to whatever reason. I think it's absolutely valid to wonder if this team will figure it out.

Gosh you make some very good points and you got me wondering? Do you think the biggest problem is that the 4 freshman have a problem with playing TEAM basketball? These youngsters have been the big man on campus for 4 years in high school. They were THE man on the their teams. Could it be they just don't want to give it up for the team's sake? It seems we have a senior captain that has been giving it his all. He has no problem going to the floor for a loose ball. He's moving his feet better on defense better than I've seen in the 3 previous years. Maybe the reason Coach K was so upset after the last game had something to do with the guys not buying in on the TEAM concept. Just wondering? GoDuke!

[CDu]

Gosh you make some very good points and you got me wondering? Do you think the biggest problem is that the 4 freshman have a problem with playing TEAM basketball? These youngsters have been the big man on campus for 4 years in high school. They were THE man on the their teams. Could it be they just don't want to give it up for the team's sake? It seems we have a senior captain that has been giving it his all. He has no problem going to the floor for a loose ball. He's moving his feet better on defense better than I've seen in the 3 previous years. Maybe the reason Coach K was so upset after the last game had something to do with the guys not buying in on the TEAM concept. Just wondering? GoDuke!

I don't think it is buy-in, as none of these guys seem like they aren't team guys. But I don't know exactly what it is. Whether it is just a lack of focus, lack of understanding of how hard you have to work at the college level, lack of fundamentals, or what, but something isn't clicking for 40 minutes. Then, at some point, we buckle down and turn on the jets in the second half. Sometimes we have enough to get it done, sometimes not.

The team's ceiling is obviously awfully high. We've seen the team be as good defensively as any Duke team in memory for an extended stretch, and as good offensively as any NCAA team in memory for a different extended stretch. And that is WITH the sleepwalking through large stretches of so many games. If we could meld those two sides together AND not have those long lapses, we'd blow the doors off teams. But that remains a big "if" right now. And the result so far is a good-not-great record against top-100 teams. Hopefully they get whatever it is figured out.

[Natty_B]

As for this team, my biggest concern is that we've continued a nearly season-long theme of not being dialed in for 40 minutes. Now, we have enough talent that this has only been a concern in about 8-10 games this year, as the talent difference has been great enough to not matter in the others. We are 8-4 against the top-100, and three of those wins came against a severely-depleted Notre Dame team and two low-major schools. And we had to make furious comebacks in several of those wins (Texas, UF, FSU, Miami).

With one of those wins being against team 100 exactly. Props to South Dakota for having a great season and unexpectedly helping the RPI cause.

[CDu]

With one of those wins being against team 100 exactly. Props to South Dakota for having a great season and unexpectedly helping the RPI cause.

And another of those teams being a top-100 team in name only (Notre Dame, whose resume is still somewhat buoyed by Colson but who has lost 7 in a row now).

[Acymetric]

Gosh you make some very good points and you got me wondering? Do you think the biggest problem is that the 4 freshman have a problem with playing TEAM basketball? These youngsters have been the big man on campus for 4 years in high school. They were THE man on the their teams. Could it be they just don't want to give it up for the team's sake? It seems we have a senior captain that has been giving it his all. He has no problem going to the floor for a loose ball. He's moving his feet better on defense better than I've seen in the 3 previous years. Maybe the reason Coach K was so upset after the last game had something to do with the guys not buying in on the TEAM concept. Just wondering? GoDuke!

I'm not sure it's that they don't want to give it up for the team's sake, so much as it is a major adjustment that has to be learned. I (and really none of us unless someone has some kind of access to the program) can comment to willingness to make that change, but being willing to learn those team concepts is separate from having successfully put those concepts into practice. Whether we need more buy in or just more time I can't say. Fortunately both are potentially fixable, unfortunately just because it is possible for it to be fixed doesn't mean it will be (we may just run out of time to improve as a team to the point we need to). At this point in the season we are on the clock.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I am still waiting for the team to have a breakthrough game and play forty minutes of ball the way we KNOW they can. If they pull together and see how much fun it can be to blow the doors off someone from whistle to whistle, it would be a game changer in every sense of the phrase.

I see no reason this should not happen on Thursday.

Go Duke!

[uh_no]

I am still waiting for the team to have a breakthrough game and play forty minutes of ball the way we KNOW they can.


i mean, we did kind of bulldoze ND at home last week

[CDu]

i mean, we did kind of bulldoze ND at home last week

I am not sure that a game against a severely overmatched Notre Dame team - in which they hung around with a couple of possessions well into the second half - is a great example of a breakthrough game.

[Acymetric]

I am not sure that a game against a severely overmatched Notre Dame team - in which they hung around with a couple of possessions well into the second half - is a great example of a breakthrough game.

We didn't really pull away until 10-12 minutes left, notably with one of our starters on the bench with fouls (although his three before he went out was the beginning of the run).

[CDu]

We didn't really pull away until 10-12 minutes left, notably with one of our starters on the bench with fouls (although his three before he went out was the beginning of the run).

Right. We absolutely dominated for about an 8 minute stretch. But prior to that, we largely sleepwalked through it.

I don’t expect us to blow everyone away for 40 minutes. But there has been a concerning pattern of kind of sloppily playing for 25-30 minutes, then turning it on and absolutely dominating for 5-10 minutes. That has been good enough most of the time. It was not quite good enough at home against a top team, and it was not good enough on the road against a non-tourney team. It was good enough against a bunch of second-round opponents like FSU, UF, Texas, and Miami. But those games were frantic comebacks. That is not a recipe for long-term success.

I am hoping that we can start showing that we can play 40 minutes of focused bball soon.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Unfortunately because it is a valid point of contention for many die hard Duke fans, like myself.

I agree 100 percent with your observations and feelings. I’ve followed Duke basketball for 35 years. I remember when defense came first and everything else was secondary. I have one question, and it’s not directed at you personally:


What is the answer? On one hand, we want players like we’re recruiting to try and build a team around them. On the other hand, if we don’t get them, they all go and play for the slime ball in Lexington.

Our four star or four year players haven’t really developed or stayed around long enough to develop. Javin is the latest example. He really should be further along as a junior. If Bolden stays another year, he might end up being the exception.

[subzero02]

I agree 100 percent with your observations and feelings. I’ve followed Duke basketball for 35 years. I remember when defense came first and everything else was secondary. I have one question, and it’s not directed at you personally:


What is the answer? On one hand, we want players like we’re recruiting to try and build a team around them. On the other hand, if we don’t get them, they all go and play for the slime ball in Lexington.

Our four star or four year players haven’t really developed or stayed around long enough to develop. Javin is the latest example. He really should be further along as a junior. If Bolden stays another year, he might end up being the exception.

I have been very critical of Bolden in the past but he has shown me some very impressive flashes lately. I think going against Wendell and Marvin on a daily basis has really helped him. His timing seems to be a bit better.

[CDu]

I agree 100 percent with your observations and feelings. I’ve followed Duke basketball for 35 years. I remember when defense came first and everything else was secondary. I have one question, and it’s not directed at you personally:


What is the answer? On one hand, we want players like we’re recruiting to try and build a team around them. On the other hand, if we don’t get them, they all go and play for the slime ball in Lexington.

Our four star or four year players haven’t really developed or stayed around long enough to develop. Javin is the latest example. He really should be further along as a junior. If Bolden stays another year, he might end up being the exception.

To be fair, DeLaurier is just a sophomore.

[Emerrick]

The team is 19-4. Lighten up, Francis.

I’m glad you said it and not me. :)

I did say “these” and 2015 wasn’t that long ago. I’m sorry I feel compelled to defend Coach K. His leadership style and approach to life has been rather influential on me. I’m interested in hearing/watching how he handles this situation. His presser was a torcher like I’ve not seen in years.

Will we win the tourney this year? Will we get bounced in the first round? I have no idea. But at least we have a chance to win it all. That I know. It hasn’t and won’t always be that way.

To quote a very old friend, “Love the hand that fate deals you and play it as your own, for what could be more fitting”. OADs are the making of the NBA. But from my vantage point (which is admittedly quite far), Coach is playing his hand the best he can. At least you aren’t a Vandy fan and lost to Belmont (sigh...I digress). I know we can repeat 2015 with this team. I’ll watch, cheer, throw crap at the TV, dance on my table, laugh, cry, cuss at every game until they are done. And then mope for the next 9 months regardless of what happens.

Go Duke! 9F9F9F

[duketaylor]

This season was lost when we couldn't win at Chestnut Hill. Then the NCSU loss and now SJU debacle. We're toast. Duke never does much in the post-season when losing any Jan or Feb games. Just go back and look at history in the K era. Terrible results when 19-4 at this stage with shocking losses, even one being at home. We're so done. We could lose Thursday and drop outta the top 320. I'm gonna focus on the Winter Olympics and spring training now. Pure and (not so) simple. Love me some curling and downhill!! GO USA!!! GO DUKE!!!!:cool:

[CameronBornAndBred]

What is the answer? On one hand, we want players like we’re recruiting to try and build a team around them. On the other hand, if we don’t get them, they all go and play for the slime ball in Lexington.


I don't know the answer. I don't even particularly mind one OAD; that's kind of where I thought Duke was headed when we started signing them. K targeted a guy, incorporated him into a team and often built an offense around him, but buttressed him with experience. That is a recipe I can live with. However, when our teams' starting lineups feature 3 or 4 guys that won't be there next year, there is a disconnect for me as a fan. A die hard fan at that, so it really sucks.
Someone brought up Lavar Ball's attempt to start a league filled with guys that want to skip college. He misses the fact that nobody will care about a team that changes drastically year to year; it is why it is a flawed idea doomed to never even get off the ground. I DO care about Duke, deeply. Yet, I have found myself losing interest in this team for the very reason that Lavar's idea is destined for failure. I know I'm not alone in my concerns, because I have daily conversations with other fans that have admitted this season just doesn't feel as fun and as special as we are accustomed to. I'll still tune in, I'll still yell at my tv, I'll still celebrate the wins and bemoan the losses. But there is something missing.
I don't know the answer, but I hope something changes, either voluntarily from Duke's side or that the NBA makes a change.

[Kedsy]

Do you think the biggest problem is that the 4 freshman have a problem with playing TEAM basketball?

No.


Could it be they just don't want to give it up for the team's sake?

No.


Maybe the reason Coach K was so upset after the last game had something to do with the guys not buying in on the TEAM concept.

I can't speak for Coach K but, no.


I don't know the answer. I don't even particularly mind one OAD; that's kind of where I thought Duke was headed when we started signing them. K targeted a guy, incorporated him into a team and often built an offense around him, but buttressed him with experience. That is a recipe I can live with.

Like in 2012 and 2014?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Like in 2012 and 2014?
Yep. And like in 2013. (I love that roster. http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22727&KEY=&Q_SEASON=2012) Nice Great Eight run.

[Kedsy]

Yep. And like in 2013. (I love that roster. http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22727&KEY=&Q_SEASON=2012) Nice Great Eight run.

It was a good run. And if Ryan Kelly hadn't gotten hurt, that probably would have been a Final Four team. But 2013 didn't have a one-and-done. And in today's world, Mason Plumlee probably wouldn't have stayed four years.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. But here's the thing about complaining about one-and-dones. After 6 guys with eligibility left the season-opening roster in 2015, the choices were (a) reload with one-and-dones; or (b) have at least one (and probably more than one) lousy season. Once you choose (a), those are your binary choices, forever, until you choose (b).

[CameronBornAndBred]

Once you choose (a), those are your binary choices, forever, until you choose (b).

No. They aren't. There are always good options. And, there are GREAT coaches. We are lucky to have both. I have faith our great coach can win without a foursome that I won't remember next season...just hoping he proves me right, or at least offers up the challenge.

[cato]

You know what I disliked? Being unable to compete in the ACC. Watching UNC reel in all the best talent. Losing to Carolina again and again.

You know what I like? These guys who earn the right to represent Duke. Just like the guys before.

You know what really grinds my gears? Relentless negativity about kids who work their rear ends off to try to win.

K and team demand dedication. If the players were not working hard, they would not be playing.

We can repay that with respect.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You know what really grinds my gears? Relentless negativity about kids who work their rear ends off to try to win.


Thanks for this. Wholly agree.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

You know what I disliked? Being unable to compete in the ACC. Watching UNC reel in all the best talent. Losing to Carolina again and again.

You know what I like? These guys who earn the right to represent Duke. Just like the guys before.

You know what really grinds my gears? Relentless negativity about kids who work their rear ends off to try to win.

K and team demand dedication. If the players were not working hard, they would not be playing.

We can repay that with respect.
Ya damn skippy!

[Troublemaker]

No. They aren't. There are always good options. And, there are GREAT coaches. We are lucky to have both. I have faith our great coach can win without a foursome that I won't remember next season...just hoping he proves me right, or at least offers up the challenge.

A few things:

You're being unrealistic. Coach K is 71 years old next week, and he keeps missing games every season due to illness. The end is near, and he's not all of a sudden going to recruit 4-year players.
Thoroughly seeding the NBA with our progeny in recent seasons, and building up the Brotherhood brand will improve the odds that Duke can win at a high level with our next coach. While I remain skeptical that there won't be a huge dropoff after Coach K leaves, the progeny/Brotherhood will give us a chance.
I would actually be bothered by OADs if I thought that was the way we would recruit from now on forever and ever. But even if the NBA weren't considering changing the rule, it wasn't going to last much longer anyway. What we're doing is really, REALLY hard to do. You have to be one of the top two recruiting programs in the country in order to pull it off, and recruiting power is cyclical. We're enjoying an up cycle right now but the down cycle is coming, regardless of what happens with the NBA and changing the rule.
Given that we know for certain that OAD recruiting won't last forever, I just try to take it for what it is and enjoy this unusual little mini-era in Duke (and NCAA) history that was spawned by an NBA rule. Why NOT sit back and enjoy it? This era has produced one national title so far and I'll bet you a pie/beer/whatever that it'll produce a second one before it's all said and done.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I doubt that OADs feel a rivalry strongly the way the rest of us do. I'm not sure they've even unpacked their bags, bless their transient hearts. Seems to me it would be far easier for them to go flat on Thursday.
Love, Ima

[mgtr]

Glad to see some of the old hands sticking up for our team and our coach. Very tired of the coach- and team-bashing. We played a lousy game against a better than expected St. Johns team. We lost. S$%^ happens. I don't believe that a single person on this board has a better understanding of this team and its components than coach K. To paraphrase a well-known quote, "As for me and my house, we're with the coach."
OK, time to focus on moving forward. Lets take out our frustrations on the cheaters!

[budwom]

You know what I disliked? Being unable to compete in the ACC. Watching UNC reel in all the best talent. Losing to Carolina again and again.

You know what I like? These guys who earn the right to represent Duke. Just like the guys before.

You know what really grinds my gears? Relentless negativity about kids who work their rear ends off to try to win.

K and team demand dedication. If the players were not working hard, they would not be playing.

We can repay that with respect.

not to get too deeply into this argument, but are you aware of K's comments after the St. John's game where he termed the loss "disgusting" and "unacceptable?"
The players get ample praise when their effort is good, and they deserve to be criticized when their effort is truly pitiful as it was on Saturday.
It was a day in which they clearly did not "work their rear ends off," and they clearly didn't work hard. If they want to be immune from reasonable criticism, they should find
another sport.

[Troublemaker]

not to get too deeply into this argument, but are you aware of K's comments after the St. John's game where he termed the loss "disgusting" and "unacceptable?"
The players get ample praise when their effort is good, and they deserve to be criticized when their effort is truly pitiful as it was on Saturday.
It was a day in which they clearly did not "work their rear ends off," and they clearly didn't work hard. If they want to be immune from reasonable criticism, they should find
another sport.

I don't find it reasonable to wish that they had never been recruited and that we had gone with fo' year playas.

Also unreasonable to suggest that they haven't "unpacked their bags" and aren't about teamwork. (Heck, this team has a really high assist rate compared to previous Duke teams.). All the feedback from the coaches have been that these are really good kids. One bad performance @SJU doesn't change that.

[budwom]

I don't find it reasonable to wish that they had never been recruited and that we had gone with fo' year playas.

I've never made that argument.

[Troublemaker]

I've never made that argument.

Others have.

[budwom]

Others have.

good grief, I was responding to one person't quote (quite clearly), i'm not responsible for what others have to say.

[Troublemaker]

good grief, I was responding to one person't quote (quite clearly), i'm not responsible for what others have to say.

Good grief, I wasn't criticizing you.

[BullBlue]

I doubt that OADs feel a rivalry strongly the way the rest of us do. I'm not sure they've even unpacked their bags, bless their transient hearts. Seems to me it would be far easier for them to go flat on Thursday.
Love, Ima

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdcY6X6R254

This one might have enjoyed the rivalry, bless his heart indeed!

[CDu]

It was a good run. And if Ryan Kelly hadn't gotten hurt, that probably would have been a Final Four team. But 2013 didn't have a one-and-done. And in today's world, Mason Plumlee probably wouldn't have stayed four years.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. But here's the thing about complaining about one-and-dones. After 6 guys with eligibility left the season-opening roster in 2015, the choices were (a) reload with one-and-dones; or (b) have at least one (and probably more than one) lousy season. Once you choose (a), those are your binary choices, forever, until you choose (b).

I am not sure it was the only option. We lost five guys early from 2014-15 to 2015-16 (Sulaimon, Cook, and the three frosh), but still Allen, Plumlee, Jefferson, Jones, Obi, Kennard, Ingram, and Jeter coming in. Where we may have erred is in pushing Thornton to reclassify rather than pursuing a grad transfer PG. That team had just the single one-and-done, and would have lost just Plumlee and the grad transfer to graduation. But ultimately we get the same result as losing the three that we did lose (Ingram, Plumlee, and Thornton). Then last year we would have Jefferson, Jones, Allen, Kennard, and Jeter returning. That is a roster still loaded with experienced top-40 talent, plus whatever freshmen you bring in.

The issue was that instead of relying on the development of Kennard and Jeter, the team dipped HEAVILY into the CO2016 recruiting class, adding 4 potential one-and-dones (two of them at Jeter’s position). If it is, say, one one and done and a couple of DeLaurier types, and roll with basically the team that went toe-to-toe with Kansas in the early season. It would be a fairly veteran squad (a redshirt senior, a senior, a junior, two sophomores, and 2-3 freshmen).

Jeter gets to play. DeLaurier and another frosh get to play. This year’s team may then have had a senior, a junior Jeter, and two or three sophomores, all with experience, plus whatever we bring in. Let’s say it is another one-and-done plus 2-3 mid-tier guys. That would again likely be a pretty darn good, experienced, team. And in any year where things are light, we could push hard on the grad transfer market.

We wouldn’t have to be lousy. There might be a year or two here and there where we were “just” a top-20/25 team. But it could be done.

That just isn’t the route that Coach K chose. And I am fine with that. But let’s not go to the other extreme that this was the only route that would have avoided having a lousy season.

[thedukelamere]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdcY6X6R254

This one might have enjoyed the rivalry, bless his heart indeed!

Just when I thought Austin Rivers couldn't get any more frustrating to watch, he had to go and do something like this...

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EnormousEmptyCygnet-small.gif

[English]

I am not sure it was the only option. We lost five guys early from 2014-15 to 2015-16 (Sulaimon, Cook, and the three frosh), but still Allen, Plumlee, Jefferson, Jones, Obi, Kennard, Ingram, and Jeter coming in. Where we may have erred is in pushing Thornton to reclassify rather than pursuing a grad transfer PG. That team had just the single one-and-done, and would have lost just Plumlee and the grad transfer to graduation. But ultimately we get the same result as losing the three that we did lose (Ingram, Plumlee, and Thornton). Then last year we would have Jefferson, Jones, Allen, Kennard, and Jeter returning. That is a roster still loaded with experienced top-40 talent, plus whatever freshmen you bring in.

The issue was that instead of relying on the development of Kennard and Jeter, the team dipped HEAVILY into the CO2016 recruiting class, adding 4 potential one-and-dones (two of them at Jeter’s position). If it is, say, one one and done and a couple of DeLaurier types, and roll with basically the team that went toe-to-toe with Kansas in the early season. It would be a fairly veteran squad (a redshirt senior, a senior, a junior, two sophomores, and 2-3 freshmen).

Jeter gets to play. DeLaurier and another frosh get to play. This year’s team may then have had a senior, a junior Jeter, and two or three sophomores, all with experience, plus whatever we bring in. Let’s say it is another one-and-done plus 2-3 mid-tier guys. That would again likely be a pretty darn good, experienced, team. And in any year where things are light, we could push hard on the grad transfer market.

We wouldn’t have to be lousy. There might be a year or two here and there where we were “just” a top-20/25 team. But it could be done.

That just isn’t the route that Coach K chose. And I am fine with that. But let’s not go to the other extreme that this was the only route that would have avoided having a lousy season.

Please explain to the class what the difference is, practically speaking, WRT roster turnover between pushing hard on OADs and pushing hard on the grad transfer market. I don't see any, outside of the superficial argument about one type being in another program for a few years. Is the argument really about wanting everyone to graduate from college, and it's couched in the facade that we want to "get to know these kids over their time in college?"

[CDu]

Please explain to the class what the difference is, practically speaking, WRT roster turnover between pushing hard on OADs and pushing hard on the grad transfer market. I don't see any, outside of the superficial argument about one type being in another program for a few years. Is the argument really about wanting everyone to graduate from college, and it's couched in the facade that we want to "get to know these kids over their time in college?"

A few differences:
1. Experience. Grad transfers know what it takes to compete at the college level. Freshmen are learning that.
2. Talent. Obviously, this works against
3. Role on the team. With the one and dones, they are taking a prominent/starring role on the team. With the grad transfers, that's rarely the case.
4. Number of them. With the grad transfers, it would be "as needed". In the example pathway I presented, it wouldn't have been needed up to at least this point. And at most it would be one here or there. As opposed to 3-4 one and dones every year (which is the path we're on now).

Again, I'm not opposed to the current model. I like having the best talent. I'm just noting that there are other paths that don't involve being (a) lousy for any period of time or (b) becoming a revolving door for the NBA.

The tradeoff though is that you get less cohesiveness, less experience, and a huge learning curve. And more often than not, it doesn't all come together by season's end. So instead of having veteran teams with less top-end talent that grind out early season wins with their experience/cohesion and hope to have things break right in the tournament, we instead have young, super-talented teams that hit a bunch of speed bumps along the way but have a chance to be otherworldly come March if they figure it all out.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

<rant/>

A good many of you seem to be letting the cheaters get to you... you’re turning on each for god’s sake and we haven’t even played the game.

You can’t be a Duke fan selectively. You’re all in or you’re all out. You trust K and the coaching staff or you don’t. Some of you seem to think that K’s post game comments are license to go off on our players and our system. I saw K being honest about one game and working to begin motivating the crew for the next stretch of the season.

You know, we’ve been ridiculously lucky to have a coach like K all these years. I just can’t figure out what on God’s geeen earth some of you are arguing about? I read some of these posts and it makes my skin crawl because of the sense of entitlement displayed. Not to mention the insane doom and gloom. Really. We’ve lost four total games. Four! I mean, lighten up Francis (all of you). It’s a process. It’s a journey. It’s an adventure. Insert your favorite synonym and chillax a little. :cool:

</rant>

[CDu]

<rant/>

A good many of you seem to be letting the cheaters get to you... you’re turning on each for god’s sake and we haven’t even played the game.

You can’t be a Duke fan selectively. You’re all in or you’re all out. You trust K and the coaching staff or you don’t. Some of you seem to think that K’s post game comments are license to go off on our players and our system. I saw K being honest about one game and working to begin motivating the crew for the next stretch of the season.

You know, we’ve been ridiculously lucky to have a coach like K all these years. I just can’t figure out what on God’s geeen earth some of you are arguing about? I read some of these posts and it makes my skin crawl because of the sense of entitlement displayed. Not to mention the insane doom and gloom. Really. We’ve lost four total games. Four! I mean, lighten up Francis (all of you). It’s a process. It’s a journey. It’s an adventure. Insert your favorite synonym and chillax a little. :cool:

</rant>

Fans can be fans however they want to be fans.

[BD80]

Very true, 19-4. I will say, however, that the fact that 3 of those losses were to unranked teams has to be of no small concern to Duke fans. And, we should have beaten UVA too, but a pitiful first half doomed us. I agree it's not time to panic, but a couple more like Saturday it will be.


<rant/>

A good many of you seem to be letting the cheaters get to you... you’re turning on each for god’s sake and we haven’t even played the game.

You can’t be a Duke fan selectively. You’re all in or you’re all out. You trust K and the coaching staff or you don’t. Some of you seem to think that K’s post game comments are license to go off on our players and our system. I saw K being honest about one game and working to begin motivating the crew for the next stretch of the season.

You know, we’ve been ridiculously lucky to have a coach like K all these years. I just can’t figure out what on God’s geeen earth some of you are arguing about? I read some of these posts and it makes my skin crawl because of the sense of entitlement displayed. Not to mention the insane doom and gloom. Really. We’ve lost four total games. Four! I mean, lighten up Francis (all of you). It’s a process. It’s a journey. It’s an adventure. Insert your favorite synonym and chillax a little. :cool:

</rant>

And this was supposed to me the thread for optimism (faux negativity). Either we are outnumbered - or we're being outworked by the negative nellies.

[Acymetric]

A few things:

You're being unrealistic. Coach K is 71 years old next week, and he keeps missing games every season due to illness. The end is near, and he's not all of a sudden going to recruit 4-year players.
Thoroughly seeding the NBA with our progeny in recent seasons, and building up the Brotherhood brand will improve the odds that Duke can win at a high level with our next coach. While I remain skeptical that there won't be a huge dropoff after Coach K leaves, the progeny/Brotherhood will give us a chance.
I would actually be bothered by OADs if I thought that was the way we would recruit from now on forever and ever. But even if the NBA weren't considering changing the rule, it wasn't going to last much longer anyway. What we're doing is really, REALLY hard to do. You have to be one of the top two recruiting programs in the country in order to pull it off, and recruiting power is cyclical. We're enjoying an up cycle right now but the down cycle is coming, regardless of what happens with the NBA and changing the rule.
Given that we know for certain that OAD recruiting won't last forever, I just try to take it for what it is and enjoy this unusual little mini-era in Duke (and NCAA) history that was spawned by an NBA rule. Why NOT sit back and enjoy it? This era has produced one national title so far and I'll bet you a pie/beer/whatever that it'll produce a second one before it's all said and done.


It is possible to find some merit yo your points above and still find that heavy turnover (an indisputable result of bringing 3-4 OADs in a year) detracts from connection to the players, which is one of the (though not the only) major draws to college sports for a lot of fans.

To Kedsy's point about not going OAD meaning at least one "bad" year(subjective, we haven't had a bad team since the mid 90s and wouldn't have approached that level by skipping OAD talent), that argument works equally as well against the OAD strategy. What happens to us the first year we can't recruit OAD talent anymore when the NBA changes it's rule (which could possibly end up coinciding with K's retirement to compound the issue) and all our previous star talent has left for the NBA...talk about a bare cupboard (no experienced leaders, no superstar freshman). That is much more likely to result in a major down year than relying on a few moderately experienced upperclassmen and some talented but not superstar freshman would have been.




<rant/>
...
</rant>


Sorry, I couldn't read your rant because the rant tag was closed prematurely...but I'm sure it was a good one! ;)

[CDu]

It is possible to find some merit yo your points above and still find that heavy turnover (an indisputable result of bringing 3-4 OADs in a year) detracts from connection to the players, which is one of the (though not the only) major draws to college sports for a lot of fans.

I agree. I love having the most talent. And as such I am okay with the approach Coach K has taken. But at the same time, I also understand (and to some degree, share) the sentiment of missing getting to watch guys develop. There is of course the counterargument that it wasn't loads of fun back in 2007-2009, either. It'd be great if we were a Final Four contender every year with veteran teams that develop together, but that's just not easy to do.


To Kedsy's point about not going OAD meaning at least one "bad" year(subjective, we haven't had a bad team since the mid 90s and wouldn't have approached that level by skipping OAD talent), that argument works equally as well against the OAD strategy. What happens to us the first year we can't recruit OAD talent anymore when the NBA changes it's rule (which could possibly end up coinciding with K's retirement to compound the issue) and all our previous star talent has left for the NBA...talk about a bare cupboard (no experienced leaders, no superstar freshman). That is much more likely to result in a major down year than relying on a few moderately experienced upperclassmen and some talented but not superstar freshman would have been.

VERY much agree. There is a very good chance that whatever year the NBA changes its rules is going to decimate our roster. Maybe we recover with a year or two of use of the transfer/grad transfer market. But it's going to get really dicey. Dicier than the occasional year where we need to replace an unexpected early departure but have a team with several experienced and talented veterans as well.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

And this was supposed to me the thread for optimism (faux negativity). Either we are outnumbered - or we're being outworked by the negative nellies.

I find it wildly disappointing that people feel the need to express their negative thoughts of this time on this thread. This is not a rant or snark, just noting that this board has changed in some fundamental way in the last three years, and it makes me sad.

[CDu]

I find it wildly disappointing that people feel the need to express their negative thoughts of this time on this thread. This is not a rant or snark, just noting that this board has changed in some fundamental way in the last three years, and it makes me sad.

I disagree. I bet we can go back to 2007-2009 and find the same things. Or 2012-2014. Heck, even in 2010. And 2015. There have always been optimists on DBR, and there have always been pessimists on DBR. When things are going well, folks are happy. When we have bad losses, there is conflict.

[jv001]

I agree. I love having the most talent. And as such I am okay with the approach Coach K has taken. But at the same time, I also understand (and to some degree, share) the sentiment of missing getting to watch guys develop. There is of course the counterargument that it wasn't loads of fun back in 2007-2009, either. It'd be great if we were a Final Four contender every year with veteran teams that develop together, but that's just not easy to do.



VERY much agree. There is a very good chance that whatever year the NBA changes its rules is going to decimate our roster. Maybe we recover with a year or two of use of the transfer/grad transfer market. But it's going to get really dicey. Dicier than the occasional year where we need to replace an unexpected early departure but have a team with several experienced and talented veterans as well.

I agree that when the NBA changes their rules it's going to be an up hill climb and a steep one at that. It's going to be interesting to see the teams that rely on 3 and 4 star recruits that are now experienced players suddenly be top ten ranked. Whoever is at the helm of the Duke program will have to regroup quickly, whether it's by getting great defenders that are not great on offense, by incoming transfers or other ways. I can't wait to read the posts about so and so improving over the summer and will be the next Grant Hill. :cool: GoDuke!

[Acymetric]

I disagree. I bet we can go back to 2007-2009 and find the same things. Or 2012-2014. Heck, even in 2010. And 2015. There have always been optimists on DBR, and there have always been pessimists on DBR. When things are going well, folks are happy. When we have bad losses, there is conflict.

If anything, I think there was MORE negativity (in terms of the level of negativity in individual posts) after losses in previous years...there are more negative posts now but that's a result of more posters/posts generally, I don't think the ratio has changed much. Negative posts now are largely tame by comparison (with some rare exceptions).

How long has it been since the board had to be shut down for a "cool down" period?

[Troublemaker]

It is possible to find some merit yo your points above and still find that heavy turnover (an indisputable result of bringing 3-4 OADs in a year) detracts from connection to the players, which is one of the (though not the only) major draws to college sports for a lot of fans.

I agree with you. In life, most choices have upsides and downsides, and the loss of connection to the players is a downside to OAD recruiting.

Let me say this, though. It has the most impact on fans who only follow the players while they're in college. And, actually, I'll freely admit that for people who watch college basketball only, this era probably really stinks.

But for fans like me who follow the NBA, though, I think it's not that big a deal for most of us. This is going to sound crazy to college-only fans, but I feel more connected to Kyrie Irving than to Amile Jefferson. Afterall, this is my eight season of watching Kyrie play, and I only watched Amile for five.

And this isn't me saying, "Go follow the NBA, duh." I'm just pointing out another nuance of this debate.

[English]

I agree. I love having the most talent. And as such I am okay with the approach Coach K has taken. But at the same time, I also understand (and to some degree, share) the sentiment of missing getting to watch guys develop. There is of course the counterargument that it wasn't loads of fun back in 2007-2009, either. It'd be great if we were a Final Four contender every year with veteran teams that develop together, but that's just not easy to do.

I think it's pretty easy to say watching five-star, four-year players develop through the program is far preferential to the current OAD model, but the reality has changed. I really don't think that the complaints about this started with this season's team, and yet, this team and 2015 are basically the only teams that had a preponderance of OADs without as much or more veteran players that developed through the program. Last year was actually one of the more experienced teams in recent past--we had 5th year senior Amile, senior Matt Jones, junior Grayson Allen, and sophomore Luke (& Chase) as key contributors. Even in 2015, we had Sr. Quinn Cook, Jr. Amile Jefferson, and So. Matt Jones. The other years, the program predominantly used three- and four-year guys supplemented with a single OAD.

It really seems like folks just like to complain after a loss, and often use an oversimplified argument to do it. Of course, I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how to fan. If you want to live in a nostalgic state of mind where guys like JayWill and Laettner and Grant and JJ stay 3-4 years, by all means, different strokes and all that. I wish that place still existed, too. But it's certainly not going to ruin my enjoyment of Duke basketball.

[CDu]

I think it's pretty easy to say watching five-star, four-year players develop through the program is far preferential to the current OAD model, but the reality has changed. I really don't think that the complaints about this started with this season's team, and yet, this team and 2015 are basically the only teams that had a preponderance of OADs without as much or more veteran players that developed through the program. Last year was actually one of the more experienced teams in recent past--we had 5th year senior Amile, senior Matt Jones, junior Grayson Allen, and sophomore Luke (& Chase) as key contributors. Even in 2015, we had Sr. Quinn Cook, Jr. Amile Jefferson, and So. Matt Jones. The other years, the program predominantly used three- and four-year guys supplemented with a single OAD.

It really seems like folks just like to complain after a loss, and often use an oversimplified argument to do it. Of course, I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how to fan. If you want to live in a nostalgic state of mind where guys like JayWill and Laettner and Grant and JJ stay 3-4 years, by all means, different strokes and all that. I wish that place still existed, too. But it's certainly not going to ruin my enjoyment of Duke basketball.

I agree. That was my point.

[devilseven]

I think it's pretty easy to say watching five-star, four-year players develop through the program is far preferential to the current OAD model, but the reality has changed. I really don't think that the complaints about this started with this season's team, and yet, this team and 2015 are basically the only teams that had a preponderance of OADs without as much or more veteran players that developed through the program. Last year was actually one of the more experienced teams in recent past--we had 5th year senior Amile, senior Matt Jones, junior Grayson Allen, and sophomore Luke (& Chase) as key contributors. Even in 2015, we had Sr. Quinn Cook, Jr. Amile Jefferson, and So. Matt Jones. The other years, the program predominantly used three- and four-year guys supplemented with a single OAD.

It really seems like folks just like to complain after a loss, and often use an oversimplified argument to do it. Of course, I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how to fan. If you want to live in a nostalgic state of mind where guys like JayWill and Laettner and Grant and JJ stay 3-4 years, by all means, different strokes and all that. I wish that place still existed, too. But it's certainly not going to ruin my enjoyment of Duke basketball.

If and when the NBA changes the rule, maybe that place will exist again. We can only hope.

[English]

I agree. That was my point.

Yeah, apologies, I quoted your post because it shares my sentiments well, and there are just way too many other posts to quote to which I was really responding.


I agree with you. In life, most choices have upsides and downsides, and the loss of connection to the players is a downside to OAD recruiting.

Let me say this, though. It has the most impact on fans who only follow the players while they're in college. And, actually, I'll freely admit that for people who watch college basketball only, this era probably really stinks.

But for fans like me who follow the NBA, though, I think it's not that big a deal for most of us. This is going to sound crazy to college-only fans, but I feel more connected to Kyrie Irving than to Amile Jefferson. Afterall, this is my eight season of watching Kyrie play, and I only watched Amile for five.

And this isn't me saying, "Go follow the NBA, duh." I'm just pointing out another nuance of this debate.

This is well said, and although I have to share the sporks, I wanted to give a hat tip. I also casually follow the NBA--not nearly as closely as CBB, but I know what's going on in the league--and it's absolutely possible to be proud of the Duke program and its players beyond Durham. I don't care as much for the way the game is played, without traveling or much effort/defense until the 4th quarter or the playoffs, but I get a great sense of alma mater pride knowing Kyrie and Rod Hood and Jayson and others are performing well.

To the bolded, that may be true to some, but I also don't really understand why college basketball would be far better without the best players. I guess the "spirit of the game" would be preserved a bit without the roster turnover (not even mentioning the hundreds of transfers every year), but let's not kid ourselves. The kids that aren't OAD are still working to leave college for the NBA ASAFP. Is watching D3 or Ivy League hoops preferable to the ACC because those guys stick around for four years?

[English]

If and when the NBA changes the rule, maybe that place will exist again. We can only hope.

Perhaps, although without the best players. And, likely, without the types of players upon which Coach K built his program.

I certainly do not look forward to all the hand wringing around here until Adam Silver makes the announcement.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I disagree. I bet we can go back to 2007-2009 and find the same things. Or 2012-2014. Heck, even in 2010. And 2015. There have always been optimists on DBR, and there have always been pessimists on DBR. When things are going well, folks are happy. When we have bad losses, there is conflict.

Obviously, there were always optimists and pessimists, and more recently the ubiquitous reactionary fans.

What I mean is that in 2015, when our team was at the lowest of the low, I started a very similar thread to this one, specifically for the purposes of spouting optimistic views of the team. Well, we all know how that season turned out, obviously. But, to my point, the thread wasn't littered with people feeling the need to inject their counter-arguments amidst the bright-eyed projections of a thread full of Pollyannas.

Yes, there were people that year who thought Quinn Cook could never be the PG on a championship team. But they didn't pipe up in the thread specifically for people who wanted to support the team at all costs.

THAT is what I see has changed. Here's said thread (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?34968-Optimist-Thread&highlight=optimist) - see if you don't sense a tonal shift between that and today's board.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I don't find it reasonable to wish that they had never been recruited and that we had gone with fo' year playas.

Also unreasonable to suggest that they haven't "unpacked their bags" and aren't about teamwork. (Heck, this team has a really high assist rate compared to previous Duke teams.). All the feedback from the coaches have been that these are really good kids. One bad performance @SJU doesn't change that.

This was not about teamwork or assists or a wish that they had never been recruited.. I was merely commenting that its natural for anyone (player or newcomer to Duke basketball fandom) not to comprehend the intensity of the UNC rivalry until they are fully invested and have some first hand history. I know I had no appreciation of it when we first arrived in 1968. Young kids passing quickly through this revolving door can't possibly feel the desire to beat the cheats the way guys who have been in "mortal combat" at least once, or four year players and students or locals who live this year in and year out do.

I'm sure Grayson cares and I hope he can help the others care, too. This will be their one and only time in the Dumb Dome. There is probably a part of those young brains that see this as a passing thing and that they'll soon be on to events and venues more important to them.

No knock on them. It's just human nature.
Love, Ima

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Obviously, there were always optimists and pessimists, and more recently the ubiquitous reactionary fans.

What I mean is that in 2015, when our team was at the lowest of the low, I started a very similar thread to this one, specifically for the purposes of spouting optimistic views of the team. Well, we all know how that season turned out, obviously. But, to my point, the thread wasn't littered with people feeling the need to inject their counter-arguments amidst the bright-eyed projections of a thread full of Pollyannas.

Yes, there were people that year who thought Quinn Cook could never be the PG on a championship team. But they didn't pipe up in the thread specifically for people who wanted to support the team at all costs.

THAT is what I see has changed. Here's said thread (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?34968-Optimist-Thread&highlight=optimist) - see if you don't sense a tonal shift between that and today's board.

Select quotes of optimism from that thread that can almost verbatim apply today:


I remain optimistic, because Coach K. We're being broken down so we can build back up.

I have proven, over and over, to be a horrible prognosticator when it comes to Duke basketball. I think every team, by March, will be in a position to make a run at a title. But that's my privilege as a fan. And I'll continue to embrace it.

We're incredibly young, incredibly talented, and our issues have been identified. Let's fix'em and get back to work.

Go Duke.


Had this in another thread, but my buddy jv01 liked it and suggested putting it here also.

Reminds me of one of the final scenes from Apollo 13 as the damaged space vehicle prepares for re-entry and the technical experts details the problems:

Henry Hurt: We've got the parachute situation, the heat shield, angle of the trajectory and the typhoon. There's just so many variables, I'm at a loss --
Chris Kraft: I know what the problems are, Henry. This could be the worst disaster NASA's ever experienced.
Gene Kranz: With all due respect, sir, I believe this is gonna be our finest hour.

I like this Duke team's chances in this situation with Mike Krzyzewski as the coach.


I've seen a lot of good Duke teams who didn't know how to win close games. In contrast, this Duke team, who I believe is quite good, has been in a lot of close games, and won all but one of them.

[freshmanjs]

Obviously, there were always optimists and pessimists, and more recently the ubiquitous reactionary fans.

What I mean is that in 2015, when our team was at the lowest of the low, I started a very similar thread to this one, specifically for the purposes of spouting optimistic views of the team. Well, we all know how that season turned out, obviously. But, to my point, the thread wasn't littered with people feeling the need to inject their counter-arguments amidst the bright-eyed projections of a thread full of Pollyannas.

Yes, there were people that year who thought Quinn Cook could never be the PG on a championship team. But they didn't pipe up in the thread specifically for people who wanted to support the team at all costs.

THAT is what I see has changed. Here's said thread (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?34968-Optimist-Thread&highlight=optimist) - see if you don't sense a tonal shift between that and today's board.

The tone of the thread was completely different from the first post. This one was sarcastic and kind of mocking people were concerned. The 2015 thread was straight up optimism and open about its intent.

[jv001]

Obviously, there were always optimists and pessimists, and more recently the ubiquitous reactionary fans.

What I mean is that in 2015, when our team was at the lowest of the low, I started a very similar thread to this one, specifically for the purposes of spouting optimistic views of the team. Well, we all know how that season turned out, obviously. But, to my point, the thread wasn't littered with people feeling the need to inject their counter-arguments amidst the bright-eyed projections of a thread full of Pollyannas.

Yes, there were people that year who thought Quinn Cook could never be the PG on a championship team. But they didn't pipe up in the thread specifically for people who wanted to support the team at all costs.

THAT is what I see has changed. Here's said thread (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?34968-Optimist-Thread&highlight=optimist) - see if you don't sense a tonal shift between that and today's board.

I'm not sure Ozzie had an Optimist thread in mind when he started it. The title "its over" seemed pointed at the posters that posted gloom and doom posts. But I could be wrong. I remember your thread and it was a good one. Maybe you should start a new on for those that want to talk positive Duke basketball. It worked in 2015. GoDuke!

[thedukelamere]

I'd put money on Ozzie being factious with the title and the thread was actually a place for optimism. Although every thread seems to eventually lead to the OAD debate, so does it really matter?

Quick edit: Amazing how Mtn's reason for optimism echoes some of our 2017 issues... hopefully history repeats itself!



Why I am optimistic:

- Our team knows how to play, they just have to remember how to play. Our defense earlier in the season was not just better than last year - it was pretty gosh-darned impressive. Our guards were causing problems for opponents, we clogged the inside with Amile and Okafor, and were aggressive in attacking passing lanes.

- We have so much talent. The talent displayed early in the season hasn't evaporated over time. Justise is still a dynamic game changer, Tyus is still great at making the extra pass, and Jahlil can pretty much do anything. Amile has come on strong as of late, Rasheed wants to play well and win so badly you can see it coming out his sweat pores. The pieces are all still there and when we pass well, our cohesion is great.

- It feels like our problems are mental. Our guys get visibly frustrated after a perceived bad call or making a bad mistake and are letting it affect them for the next play or two. Conversely, when they convert a great play, their emotions get too high and they try to continue spectacular play on the other end of the floor, rather than settling back into their sets (I call this "Plumlee Syndrome" - after each of the previous Plumlees who seemed notorious for this early in their Duke careers before maturing). I think this emotional roller coaster is amplified by our youth. We haven't yet had someone emerge as a leader to settle us down when necessary and ramp us up when we need it. However... who better to recognize this and coach our guys to quick maturity than the guy with 997 wins and four national championships?

- We've been missing our outside shots. We have some really good shooters, but seem to have had lots of guys with "off days" at the same time. Usually, Jones or Cook or Jones or Winslow or Sheed can step up and fill in the gaps. When several guys are off, defenses can play a more packed-in man-to-man which makes it much easier to deny the ball to Jahlil and much more difficult for our guards to slash and score/dish. I'm optimistic on this front because how many more games in a row can all our shooters be absent? Several are overdue for a break-out game and all of them, by the law of averages, ought to see things bounce back in short order.

[Troublemaker]

To the bolded, that may be true to some, but I also don't really understand why college basketball would be far better without the best players. I guess the "spirit of the game" would be preserved a bit without the roster turnover (not even mentioning the hundreds of transfers every year), but let's not kid ourselves. The kids that aren't OAD are still working to leave college for the NBA ASAFP. Is watching D3 or Ivy League hoops preferable to the ACC because those guys stick around for four years?

Are you talking about CBB fans in general? Because, while I didn't make it clear (my bad), I was referring to Duke fans who are college-only watchers. I mean, the whole OAD debate is really only relevant to Duke and Kentucky (and I'm certain UK fans have the same debate on their forums). If one is, say, a Dayton fan, for example, I can't see how much has changed for them pre-OAD vs OAD era.

[CDu]

I'm not sure Ozzie had an Optimist thread in mind when he started it. The title "its over" seemed pointed at the posters that posted gloom and doom posts. But I could be wrong. I remember your thread and it was a good one. Maybe you should start a new on for those that want to talk positive Duke basketball. It worked in 2015. GoDuke!


The tone of the thread was completely different from the first post. This one was sarcastic and kind of mocking people were concerned. The 2015 thread was straight up optimism and open about its intent.

Bingo. If the thread had been titled "This is the optimist thread", I would agree with you Mtn. But it was not. It was a combative (albeit in jest I'm sure) post from an optimist suggesting the folks voicing concern are being silly. It may have served as a dog whistle for other optimists to claim it as an optimist thread, but it also served as a pretty clear jab at others. So, no, not at all the same thing as Mtn's optimist thread from 2015.

[Wander]

Quick edit: Amazing how Mtn's reason for optimism echoes some of our 2017 issues... hopefully history repeats itself!

I don't think the basketball reasons quoted there apply to this season - we started off the season playing very poor defense, and we don't have an abundance of great 3 point shooters. More generally speaking, two of our losses this year are far worse than any the 2015 team experienced.

I'm optimistic that we can win the title this year, but I don't think 2015 is a very good comparison, other than the obvious point about talented freshmen improving overall as the season goes on.

[CDu]

I don't think the basketball reasons quoted there apply to this season - we started off the season playing very poor defense, and we don't have an abundance of great 3 point shooters. More generally speaking, two of our losses this year are far worse than any the 2015 team experienced.

I'm optimistic that we can win the title this year, but I don't think 2015 is a very good comparison, other than the obvious point about talented freshmen improving overall as the season goes on.

It's true. Our 2015 team didn't lose a single game to a team that wasn't NCAA tourney caliber (Miami didn't get invited, but was a top-50 team). In that respect, three of our losses (important to remember that State was without their starting PG at the time) were to worse teams than anyone we lost to in 2015. Of course, the Miami loss that year was at home.

But in terms of team performance and the skills/weaknesses of this team, they aren't that similar (other than youth/inexperience).

[Steven43]

I agree with you. In life, most choices have upsides and downsides, and the loss of connection to the players is a downside to OAD recruiting.

Let me say this, though. It has the most impact on fans who only follow the players while they're in college. And, actually, I'll freely admit that for people who watch college basketball only, this era probably really stinks.

But for fans like me who follow the NBA, though, I think it's not that big a deal for most of us. This is going to sound crazy to college-only fans, but I feel more connected to Kyrie Irving than to Amile Jefferson. Afterall, this is my eight season of watching Kyrie play, and I only watched Amile for five.

And this isn't me saying, "Go follow the NBA, duh." I'm just pointing out another nuance of this debate.
You make an interesting point, but I think we’re talking about two different things here. On the one hand you have the idea of following and supporting Duke players who are currently enrolled in the University and actively playing in Cameron. To me that is quite different from following and supporting FORMER Duke players in the NBA or elsewhere. Sure, I check in on, say, Jabari Parker from time to time, but it has very little relevance to what is happening in Durham during the time a basketball player/student is wearing the jersey that has the letters D-U-K-E on the front.

[devildeac]

I'd put money on Ozzie being factious with the title and the thread was actually a place for optimism. Although every thread seems to eventually lead to the OAD debate, so does it really matter?

Quick edit: Amazing how Mtn's reason for optimism echoes some of our 2017 issues... hopefully history repeats itself!

I know Ozzie pretty well and I believe his tone/intent was very likely intended to be op-toe-mistic. However, he still has 10 fingers, including 2 opposable thumbs, and can ultimately answer for himself (when he's not counting on his toes, too, for an accurate total of the wins he expects the Duke MBB team to have before the end of the season :o:rolleyes:).

;)

[Ian]

Obviously, there were always optimists and pessimists, and more recently the ubiquitous reactionary fans.

What I mean is that in 2015, when our team was at the lowest of the low, I started a very similar thread to this one, specifically for the purposes of spouting optimistic views of the team. Well, we all know how that season turned out, obviously. But, to my point, the thread wasn't littered with people feeling the need to inject their counter-arguments amidst the bright-eyed projections of a thread full of Pollyannas.

Yes, there were people that year who thought Quinn Cook could never be the PG on a championship team. But they didn't pipe up in the thread specifically for people who wanted to support the team at all costs.

THAT is what I see has changed. Here's said thread (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?34968-Optimist-Thread&highlight=optimist) - see if you don't sense a tonal shift between that and today's board.

Well, I was one of those optimists in 2015. I think for many of us, what happened since 2015 is what's driving our concern. Before and during 2015, Duke didn't have a revolving door of OADs. We knew Okafor was OAD, but we weren't sure about the others, and the incoming class of 2016 (I think by the time of this thread we hadn't even signed Ingram) wasn't a roster of OADs. So frustrations with losses wasn't a frustration with the direction of the program in general, and it's easier to be positive in that scenario.

Since 2015 we've double and tripled down on OADs, last year we had a OAD who wasn't even a 1st round pick, this year we are starting 4 freshmen, and we are seriously looking at an 5 freshmen starting lineup in 2018-19. If you read this board in 2010-2015, you can probably also find hundreds of post excoriating Kentucky for doing exactly what we're doing now. I actually find the number of people voicing their concerns on this board about this encouraging, because it shows me that this board is made of a bunch of hypocrites who only cared about winning and were just being sour grapes about Kentucky getting all the top recruits. That many people here actually have standards and they aren't willing to bend it just because it's now Duke doing it.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I actually find the number of people voicing their concerns on this board about this encouraging, because it shows me that this board is made of a bunch of hypocrites who only cared about winning and were just being sour grapes about Kentucky getting all the top recruits. That many people here actually have standards and they aren't willing to bend it just because it's now Duke doing it.
Good post. From your tone in the rest of your writing, I'm guessing that is supposed to say "isn't".

[Kedsy]

We wouldn’t have to be lousy. There might be a year or two here and there where we were “just” a top-20/25 team. But it could be done.

While I agree there might be a year when we were "just" a top-25 team, it could just as easily be a year (or two) where we were a lot worse than that. For example, suppose Coach K had decided to recruit only one OAD for next season. An ACC team consisting of Javin, Marques, Jack, Antonio, Jordan G, an OAD, and several top 100 (some top 40, some not, but none top 25) would have a really good chance of not making the NCAAT. And if you miss on your one OAD, that roster would be much more likely to miss the tournament than to make it.

Also, with the amount of b*tching and moaning around here about a top 10, 19-4 team, the practical difference between a "lousy" team and a "just top-20/25" team might be a potato/potahto situation.


There is of course the counterargument that it wasn't loads of fun back in 2007-2009, either.

Exactly. And the primary complaint on the board in those days is we weren't recruiting enough talent.

[CDu]

While I agree there might be a year when we were "just" a top-25 team, it could just as easily be a year (or two) where we were a lot worse than that. For example, suppose Coach K had decided to recruit only one OAD for next season. An ACC team consisting of Javin, Marques, Jack, Antonio, Jordan G, an OAD, and several top 100 (some top 40, some not, but none top 25) would have a really good chance of not making the NCAAT. And if you miss on your one OAD, that roster would be much more likely to miss the tournament than to make it.

That's because we are now two years deep into a full-on one-and-done strategy, with the repercussions resulting. Had we not gone all-in on the one-and-done 2 years ago, next year's team might well look like:

Jeter (senior)
DeLaurier (junior)
Thornton (junior) or Jackson (sophomore)
Bolden?(junior)
O'Connell (sophomore)
plus another couple of sophomores in the 30-100 range.

I suspect that pushing Thornton to reclassify and give up his senior year (which undoubtedly left him behind the learning curve all year and led to a reduced role as a freshman) and recruiting over Jeter played a big part in why those two guys left.

If they are still on board, that roster looks pretty promising. A senior, top-20 big man. A junior, top-20 big man and either a junior or sophomore top-20 guard. A junior, top-40 forward. And some decent but not elite sophomores. That's a lot like what UNC rolled out in 2016 and 2017.

Of course, that all changed once we locked in on the 2016 class with Giles/Tatum/Jackson/Bolden and with the transfer of Thornton. It meant that a bunch of the potential future veterans got pushed aside, resulting in one transfer (so far) and another guy getting minimal experience.

Even that could have been mitigated somewhat by not doubling down. Maybe Jeter decides to stick around if we don't recruit Carter and Bagley. He, DeLaurier, and Bolden become a more veteran frontcourt, with Duval, Allen, and let's say we get a grad transfer or two to fill in the gaps. It's not a world-beater, but probably still a top-25 team built around Allen's scoring and solid interior defense. Then next year, we'd have Jeter, DeLaurier, and Bolden manning the middle again, maybe add a grad transfer guard to go along with some perimeter sophomores and some mid-tier freshmen.

So at each step from 2015, 2016, and 2017, we could have potentially rebooted without bottoming out. But now? It's too many years of stripping out the guts of the class to feel comfortable not going heavy on freshmen.


Also, with the amount of b*tching and moaning around here about a top 10, 19-4 team, the practical difference between a "lousy" team and a "just top-20/25" team might be a potato/potahto situation.

There would absolutely be complaining, no doubt. It would probably feel a lot like 2007.


Exactly. And the primary complaint on the board in those days is we weren't recruiting enough talent.

Totally agree.

[Acymetric]

Exactly. And the primary complaint on the board in those days is we weren't recruiting enough talent.

"Not recruiting enough talent" might be better phrased as "not properly evaluating talent" (or, even more controversially, if the talent was evaluated proplerly "not developing talent enough") which is slightly different, especially in this context.

Not recruiting enough talent does not necessarily require going whole-hog into multiple Fab 5 style classes as a whole lot of teams had more talent (or at least got better production) before, during, and after that stretch of ours (including teams that were beating us) without doing so.

This of course is the underlying point many who aren't fans of full on OAD are trying to make, which is that if we are sacrificing the admitted value of long-term players to go OAD, the result/trade-off ought to be consistent (not constant) dominance, right? If the result is a revolving door of players composing good-not-great teams (measured in production not potential or "talent") many would feel it is not worth it.

Too early to say with certainty what the results are? Of course. Too early to form opinions based on existing evidence? Nope.

[Troublemaker]

This of course is the underlying point many who aren't fans of full on OAD are trying to make, which is that if we are sacrificing the admitted value of long-term players to go OAD, the result/trade-off ought to be consistent (not constant) dominance, right? If the result is a revolving door of players composing good-not-great teams (measured in production not potential or "talent") many would feel it is not worth it.

Too early to say with certainty what the results are? Of course. Too early to form opinions based on existing evidence? Nope.

I don't see why that would be the standard. Suppose someone who really loves OADs says, "If we sacrifice going after players who can be high lottery picks and my enjoyment of their athleticism and success in the NBA, the result of multi-year player recruiting better be consistent dominance," that would be just as random, imo.

I don't think consistent dominance is even possible unless you keep OAD-quality players 3-4 years. That time in college basketball is long gone.

No, from my perspective, the recruiting strategy just needs to be the best of various options ("best" being endlessly debatable, obviously) and fit the situation that Duke has, which is that of a program with a legendary but aging coach that will have to transition to someone new soon.

[cato]

I remember fondly the days when Duke recruited multi-year talent at the PG position. Like Tyus Jones.

If only the program hadn’t gone after sure-fire OAD Marques Bolden and stuck with other multi year players like Frank Jackson, Duke would be in much better shape today.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I remember fondly the days when Duke recruited multi-year talent at the PG position. Like Tyus Jones.

If only the program hadn’t gone after sure-fire OAD Marques Bolden and stuck with other multi year players like Frank Jackson, Duke would be in much better shape today.

Don’t forget 4-year program guys like Luke Kennard.

[Devilwin]

I guess I am guilty of negativity sometimes. I suppose I read too much in this class, (best class in cbb history, some said) and thought we would pile drive everyone we played. But sometimes freshmen play like freshmen. I have been a Duke fan since I was ten (1961) and remember the success Coach Bubas had. I will pull hard for Duke til I die. But as one gets older, we sometimes see reality where younger folks see sunshine and lollipops.
That's not to say I don't think these boys can win it all, they certainly can, they are that talented. But one thing that disturbs me, and others here, is the cold hard fact that 3 of the 4 losses came to teams we should have mauled. I am going to support these guys as long as they wear the uniform, they are my team, come what may.
Maybe the SJU loss was a wake up call. I hope so. I hope we beat UNC badly tomorrow night. I feel if we take that game, it can inspire confidence in them, and we can roll the rest of the way. I want to see Grayson drop 30 on them, and get the monkey off his back too. Because like I said the other day, he, more so than anyone else, is the key to our run this year.
There are varying opinions here on many subjects, but I think ultimately, the success of Duke basketball is what we all want!
Well, coffee has gone cold...lol:cool:

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I guess I am guilty of negativity sometimes. I suppose I read too much in this class, (best class in cbb history, some said) and thought we would pile drive everyone we played.

I would have thought that last year might have somehow soothed that temptation.

Let's see what the end of this year brings, and how we carry that lesson over the subsequent offseason's expectations placed on 18 year olds.

Remember the fake Einstein quote: the definition of insanity is doing the same the over and over, expecting different results.

To be clear, I still offer maybe 30% chances that this group removes their heads from their collective Tar Holes starting tomorrow night, and boat races everyone en route to number six.

[MCFinARL]

So, over notwithstanding, loss to St. John's is looking a little better tonight than it did earlier.

[Furniture]

Remember this:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?19000-MBB-NC-State-88-Duke-74-Post-Game-Thread/page2

some of my favourite quotes are:

total defensive let down by just about everyone that touched the floor. they looked slow and made so... many mental mistakes it was ugly. combine that with another poor shooting tonight and this team had no chance to get out of NC State with a W.

I thought they seemed meek right from the tip off...even when they made a little run, no emotion. Have to have some emotion, even on someone elses court if you're going to compete.

They came to play, we didn't.

Losing by double digits to a really under-talented State team exposes this team for what it really is.

etc..etc.

[Reddevil]

I definitely feel much better now that St. John's just won AT Villanova!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Remember this:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?19000-MBB-NC-State-88-Duke-74-Post-Game-Thread/page2

some of my favourite quotes are:

total defensive let down by just about everyone that touched the floor. they looked slow and made so... many mental mistakes it was ugly. combine that with another poor shooting tonight and this team had no chance to get out of NC State with a W.

I thought they seemed meek right from the tip off...even when they made a little run, no emotion. Have to have some emotion, even on someone elses court if you're going to compete.

They came to play, we didn't.

Losing by double digits to a really under-talented State team exposes this team for what it really is.

etc..etc.





You could almost argue that every season has its ups and downs and that overreacting to each and every blip is sorta ludicrous.

[CDu]

Remember this:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?19000-MBB-NC-State-88-Duke-74-Post-Game-Thread/page2

some of my favourite quotes are:

total defensive let down by just about everyone that touched the floor. they looked slow and made so... many mental mistakes it was ugly. combine that with another poor shooting tonight and this team had no chance to get out of NC State with a W.

I thought they seemed meek right from the tip off...even when they made a little run, no emotion. Have to have some emotion, even on someone elses court if you're going to compete.

They came to play, we didn't.

Losing by double digits to a really under-talented State team exposes this team for what it really is.

etc..etc.





To be fair, only one of those quotes looks silly now. The first several were accurate.

[Furniture]

You could almost argue that every season has its ups and downs and that overreacting to each and every blip is sorta ludicrous.

Exactly and especially after the Villanova result!

[duketaylor]

beat 'Nova at 'Nova. Go figure. This lessens my concern a little as I didn't see the game Saturday and may miss tomorrow night. Yikes!!
Kinda waiting for Status Check, seems quite delinquent.

[devildeac]

beat 'Nova at 'Nova. Go figure. This lessens my concern a little as I didn't see the game Saturday and may miss tomorrow night. Yikes!!
Kinda waiting for Status Check, seems quite delinquent.

It's here:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?41334-Status-check

On page 2 :eek::eek:.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

beat 'Nova at 'Nova. Go figure. This lessens my concern a little as I didn't see the game Saturday and may miss tomorrow night. Yikes!!
Kinda waiting for Status Check, seems quite delinquent.
Suddenly our loss on Saturday doesn’t seem so bad anymore. Helluva 5 days for SJU! Congrats to them.

And yes, Chuck, I started the Staus Check thread on Sunday traveling back from NYC.

[BD80]

So, over notwithstanding, loss to St. John's is looking a little better tonight than it did earlier.


I definitely feel much better now that St. John's just won AT Villanova!

How does that make it "less" over for us?

Obviously, it is over for Nova as well ...

Only those teams with pristine records have any shot at the championship.

As long as they haven't been infected with those disgusting OADs.

[YmoBeThere]

You could almost argue that every season has its ups and downs and that overreacting to each and every blip is sorta ludicrous.

Yes, but then what would we post about?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yes, but then what would we post about?

Beer, academic scandals, pies, winter box office numbers, and jinxed? Doesn't really roll off the tongue, I suppose.

[OldPhiKap]

9F9F9F.

And, 9F some more.

[MCFinARL]

How does that make it "less" over for us?

Obviously, it is over for Nova as well ...

Only those teams with pristine records have any shot at the championship.

As long as they haven't been infected with those disgusting OADs.

Well, yeah, but I didn't say "less over," did I? I said "over notwithstanding." So I guess it's just misery loves company. And with Purdue losing yesterday as well, there's more company to love. :D

[English]

Suddenly our loss on Saturday doesn’t seem so bad anymore. Helluva 5 days for SJU! Congrats to them.

And yes, Chuck, I started the Staus Check thread on Sunday traveling back from NYC.

And imagine if they could've held on against Xavier on 1/30, rather than losing a squeaker.

GTHCGTH 9F9F9F9F9F

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

And imagine if they could've held on against Xavier on 1/30, rather than losing a squeaker.

GTHCGTH 9F9F9F9F9F

Well, then we wouldn't have been caught looking ahead and would have blown their doors off.

[MCFinARL]

Well, then we wouldn't have been caught looking ahead and would have blown their doors off.

Isn't it pretty to think so?

[YmoBeThere]

Sigh, just a stark reminder...

[bigperm13]

Sigh, just a stark reminder...

Of what? How pathetic chat is during most games? I agree.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Everyone look out - the instant hot take recency bias crew has taken the board back over! Over two hours our team apparently transformed from a one seed to a team that won't survive the first weekend of the tournament.

(sigh)

It must be exhausting to live like that.

[YmoBeThere]

Everyone look out - the instant hot take recency bias crew has taken the board back over! Over two hours our team apparently transformed from a one seed to a team that won't survive the first weekend of the tournament.

(sigh)

It must be exhausting to live like that.

First weekend? Should we even be in the Tournament?

[mattman91]

First weekend? Should we even be in the Tournament?

Of course this team will make the NIT.