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JBDuke
02-03-2018, 02:27 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. Remember, no venting or bashing of Duke players or staff.

kshepinthehouse
02-03-2018, 02:28 PM
Embarrassing. Hope we play better Thursday.

jipops
02-03-2018, 02:28 PM
I don't know if this crosses the line in bashing the staff. But this team didn't look at all prepared for this game.

And another near no-show for Grayson. Senior season not looking great.

JD for Three!
02-03-2018, 02:30 PM
Free throws

Wander
02-03-2018, 02:30 PM
I actually have always liked that we play a short bench, and still do, but I don't think it makes sense to play our backup guards ZERO minutes when our starting backcourt is playing this badly.

rsvman
02-03-2018, 02:30 PM
Too many turnovers, too many missed free throws, too many times getting beat to loose balls, rebounds, etc.

Eternal Outlaw
02-03-2018, 02:30 PM
So sick of ticky tack outside d fouls on guards while the o guy gets to stuff arm people. So many push offs it's ridiculous they called 3 fouls on our big guys trying to get position. Fine if those are fouls if they call when the st John's guards do the same.

Bob Green
02-03-2018, 02:30 PM
The team did not appear to have an abundance of energy this afternoon. Grayson Allen has to be more involved in the offense.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-03-2018, 02:30 PM
Free throws

Turnovers

Ian
02-03-2018, 02:30 PM
They made all the hustle plays.

16 Offensive Rebounds for them and 18 Turnovers for us. Can't beat anybody doing that.

heyman25
02-03-2018, 02:31 PM
It takes 40 minutes to win a game. Another disappointing performance. The whole team needs to step up.

CameronDuke
02-03-2018, 02:31 PM
1) out hustled to several 50-50 balls in the second half after St. John's missed shots. They then beat Duke to at least a half dozen 50-50 balls.

2) turnovers. Duke was so sloppy with the ball. Way too many unforced turnovers.

3) free throws. 20-29 from the line ain't gonna cut it. And at least one miss was the front end of a 1-1 late in the second half.

The game at UNC Thursday will be fun.

DukeWarhead
02-03-2018, 02:31 PM
Did we just get bounced in the NCAAT in the 2nd round? Cuz it sure feels like it.

nmduke2001
02-03-2018, 02:31 PM
I don’t know why they didn’t send a double at Ponds every time he had the ball at the top of the zone. Get the ball out of the hands of the only guy scoring.

Oh ya, making a free throw would have helped too.

bleedingblue88
02-03-2018, 02:31 PM
Needless to say, this is a really bad loss against a really bad team. Garbage production from our senior leader again. The two FT misses at the end by Duval was the backbreaker IMO.

Selover
02-03-2018, 02:32 PM
They had a lot of lucky shots go down. We always seem to struggle with that style of game. Grayson hit a big one at the end but he has got to put up more shots. I think he had only taken four shots before that late three. We had a chance to pull out an ugly win but free throws killed us once again.

WHOneedsSOX
02-03-2018, 02:32 PM
This team has the makings of a round of 32 loss if they don't figure it out. Their talent alone is winning them games. Have to put in the extra effort if they want to be great.

lmb
02-03-2018, 02:32 PM
Missed free throws, turnovers, inability to get entry passes into the post, poor guard play (except for Trent) and most importantly, no fire.

duke4ever19
02-03-2018, 02:32 PM
Too many turnovers, too many missed free throws, too many times getting beat to loose balls, rebounds, etc.

St. John's recovered a number of back-breaking long 50/50 balls in the second half. Several times the shot clock was down to nothing, they shoot the ball, it clanks and they manage get it back. Some of these were just dumb luck, and some perhaps an effort issue.

Furniture
02-03-2018, 02:32 PM
St Johns is one of the worst shooting teams in the country but of course today they’re 50% from deep.

dukebluesincebirth
02-03-2018, 02:32 PM
Late game free throw shooting is kinda important.

Kjeffrey
02-03-2018, 02:33 PM
The team did not appear to have an abundance of energy this afternoon. Grayson Allen has to be more involved in the offense.

Couldn't agree more. The team certainly didn't seem to be overly engaged in the game. I continue to be perplexed by the lack of bench play in these situations. Perhaps others could have infused a little energy into the game.

Hauerwas
02-03-2018, 02:34 PM
One and Done.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-03-2018, 02:34 PM
Couldn't agree more. The team certainly didn't seem to be overly engaged in the game. I continue to be perplexed by the lack of bench play in these situations. Perhaps others could have infused a little energy into the game.

Jack White was in every late possession on D to keep Bags in the game. Which player would you have pulled off the floor and for whom?

Kjeffrey
02-03-2018, 02:34 PM
Late game free throw shooting is kinda important.

This just in... FT shooting and defense help win basketball games.

CameronDuke
02-03-2018, 02:34 PM
Grayson was a shell of himself yet again. Inconsistent guard play is one way to get beat early in March in the NCAAT. Not saying that will necessarily happen this year because anything can happen but I wouldn't be utterly shocked if it did given Duke's inconsistent guard play from Grayson and Duval.

84Duke
02-03-2018, 02:35 PM
You would think the Virginia game would have taught Duke the importance of valuing possessions. It did not.

WakeDevil
02-03-2018, 02:35 PM
Making it to the second weekend would be a successful season. Enough of the matador defense.

Allowing that late three with no time on the shot clock. Words fail me.

jipops
02-03-2018, 02:35 PM
So much for being under 60 for D on Kenpom

subzero02
02-03-2018, 02:35 PM
They made all the hustle plays.

16 Offensive Rebounds for them and 18 Turnovers for us. Can't beat anybody doing that.

Exactly... it seemed like they got off at least 2 shots on over half of their possessions in the final 7 minutes.

richardjackson199
02-03-2018, 02:36 PM
Congrats to St. Johns. The team that fought harder and wanted it more won.

I keep saying it. As long as Duke keeps playing like they think they will win by showing up, they will find themselves down double digits in the 2nd half. Then you give a team that kind of confidence feeling good about themselves stoked for upset on road. Recipe for disaster. But this team doesn't learn. Same thing over and over. Poor free throw shooting, poor shot selection, poor ball movement on offense, too much hero ball, and getting burned on D.

This team has too much talent to be underperforming like this. I'm very disappointed in this team. Still lots of basketball left to be played. I hope they get better and do something special. But they'll need 40 minutes of playing well together, or this will be the same result the first weekend of the NCAAT.

:(

dukelifer
02-03-2018, 02:36 PM
Unfortunately FT shooting sinks the team again- or at least changes the game. It is a big weakness and difficult to overcome during tourney time. This is a talented team but when 3 key guys are shaky from the line- it is very hard to win at the end of close games. St John’s came to play. Allen again struggled when needed most. Tough game coming up. Another huge challenge for the young kids- an emotional Duke UNC game is never ever easy. They will be shocked by the intensity.

Eternal Outlaw
02-03-2018, 02:37 PM
Making it to the second weekend would be a successful season. Enough of the matador defense.

Allowing that late three with no time on the shot clock. Words fail me.

The one over Gary? What was he supposed to do? Prayer shot went in.

DukieInBrasil
02-03-2018, 02:37 PM
It takes 40 minutes to win a game. Another disappointing performance. The whole team needs to step up.

Duke played about 20 of those 40 minutes.
6 turnovers from Bagley didn't help. Complete no show from the Sr captain hurt worse though.

Kjeffrey
02-03-2018, 02:37 PM
Jack White was in every late possession on D to keep Bags in the game. Which player would you have pulled off the floor and for whom?

I think other players should have been given PT throughout the game. I never saw AOC, Goldwire or Robinson play but I certainly could have missed it. There were some players who struggled today and I think that warrants giving others a chance.

duke4ever19
02-03-2018, 02:37 PM
This just in... FT shooting and defense help win basketball games.

All free throws are important, but the Duval missed free throws at the end were particularly a killer. If a remember correctly we could have tied it or gone up one (forget which) and we ended up with nothing.

ipatent
02-03-2018, 02:37 PM
St. John's played with more energy throughout and had more than its share of bounces, 50-50 balls and lucky shots, but Duke can blame missed FTs and turnovers for this loss.

Grayson needs to take more shots.

flyingdutchdevil
02-03-2018, 02:38 PM
Duke starts five first round picks. St Johns has no NBA players. Duke was playing an away game in ‘Cameron North’. The crowd was probably 60% Duke. I know this cus I was at the game.

If you can’t blame the coaching staff, then I’m not sure who you can blame. Our coached against a coach likely to be fired this year. Wow....wow....

kshepinthehouse
02-03-2018, 02:38 PM
I’d love to see stats on when O’Connell is in the game. I’m sure I can find it in the plus minus thread. I can’t help but feel that he could have given us a spark today. And with Grayson playing so badly surely he can get some run. I remember after one of our losses, or it could have been a game that we deserved to lose, K specifically commented that Alex needs more minutes and good things happen when he is on the court. I’m not asking for a much deeper rotation because I know that’s not going to happen but the eye test tells me Alex can help provide us some energy.

elvis14
02-03-2018, 02:38 PM
Tried to stay positive but this was not a well played game by our team.
Even though we didn't play very well we still had a chance late in the game.
Then we missed our FT's and they didn't miss the ones that counted.
GA missed 2 late 3's after not playing offense the whole game.

Argh.

porkpa
02-03-2018, 02:39 PM
FUNDAMENTALS!!! Free throws, defense and finishing under the basket. Wendell Carter, the only guy who showed up to play.

kAzE
02-03-2018, 02:40 PM
Turnovers and free throw shooting . . .

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-03-2018, 02:40 PM
One and Done.

Man, your OAD shtick is getting real tired. You've been here for a month and your post history is a litany of negativity. Try supporting our guys on the roster for a minute and not bemoaning the current situation.

During the Miami game (that we won) you pronounced our program DOA. If you believe that, maybe find a new hobby.

A team this young is going to have growing pains. People on the thread and in chat declared this game over with eight to go. We fought back and took the lead before mistakes cost us. If you think this group of kids doesn't have the grit and determination to win tight games, you have lost your mind.

Sorry for calling you out individually, but I swear I don't recognize this board anymore. The over the top gloom and doom after every possession or four minute time out is too exhausting for me to keep up with. I don't see that sort of crap as being a Duke fan, but being a Duke critic. Maybe we need a separate message board for "fans" who want to predict first round exits after every loss or say "see I told you so" when Duval has a turnover.

Saratoga2
02-03-2018, 02:40 PM
My initial reaction is that we got outhustled for a good part of the game. Our sloppy ball handling led to a lot of turnovers and our defense was broken down over and over during the game. We didn't handle their pick and role and couldn't stop their drives to the basket. They also shot well from the 3 point line. St Johns does have some really good players so they were able to take advantage of our weaknesses.

On a positive note, Carter played an excellent game. Trent shot well and Duval showed signs of his offensive ability. Bagley remains potent, although not enough to make the difference today. Grayson was not an offensive force today although he may have gotten 6 or 7 points. He was guilty of some lazy pass turnovers but was not the only one to fall into that trap. Grayson did fight hard and took a charge that helped get us back in the game. Not much from the bench, although Bolden had some good minutes.

We came out flat in the second half and got way behind. Kind of typical swoon for this team. Then we needed a furious comeback which fell short.

tulsuduke
02-03-2018, 02:41 PM
Feel free to prove my wrong, but Allen seems to really struggle in these "neutral" site games played in NBA arenas.

dukelifer
02-03-2018, 02:41 PM
Duke starts five first round picks. St Johns has no NBA players. Duke was playing an away game in ‘Cameron North’. The crowd was probably 60% Duke. I know this cus I was at the game.

If you can’t blame the coaching staff, then I’m not sure who you can blame. Our coached against a coach likely to be fired this year. Wow...wow...

I don’t know about no NBA players- that kid Ponds is pretty impressive. This was a trap game and Duke fell into it.

Wander
02-03-2018, 02:41 PM
Jack White was in every late possession on D to keep Bags in the game. Which player would you have pulled off the floor and for whom?

Late in the game? No one. We should play our starters/best players at the end of games, and for the majority of minutes. But I don't see a reason why O'Connell shouldn't take just a few of Grayson's and Duval's minutes throughout the middle of the game.

dukelifer
02-03-2018, 02:43 PM
Im honest trying to remember a more embarrassing loss in program history. Anyone? St Johns had lost 11 straight games. 11 straight. 11 straight games.

No doubt the “punishment” will be the yearly banning the players from the locker room because that’s so helpful. But it’s the program recruiting strategy that is the reason. I’m stunned at how the coaching staff didn’t have this team ready to play. This is not Duke basketball.

Look at those games they lost- St John’s is better than their record and played a Duke team that struggles on D.

duke74
02-03-2018, 02:43 PM
Not gonna be fun walking down the halls of Tobin (the business school) at SJU on Monday...or teaching. Glad I low-keyed it, thinking that we would be in for a game...yuck

JD for Three!
02-03-2018, 02:43 PM
Bagley has to adjust to getting pushed around down low without getting the calls. He can’t react with the push off. He’s going to see more of that.

SCMatt33
02-03-2018, 02:43 PM
Jack White was in every late possession on D to keep Bags in the game. Which player would you have pulled off the floor and for whom?

This is exactly why the rotations early in the year always befuddle me. None of the bench guys ever get a chance to work through their issues on the floor, instead relying on starter for 30+ minutes except in blowouts, then when you have a game where there's clear effort issues by your starting lineup, you have to throw your hands up and say "who would you turn to" when you have 12 scholarship players on the roster, but onlythe starting 5 have any big game experience during crunch time. Could you lose a game in November or December doing that? Sure. But I'd much rather lose those games in December than March. But to be honest, the first half was where this game was lost for me. There was absolutely no effort and any decent effort from any of the top 50 teams in the country would put you up by 20 or more over this St. John's team. You had practically an entire half where the offense was 4 guys standing still watching the ball, and the defense put zero effort into recovering off of screens and doubles. The only reasons we were up at that point was hot shooting, and a complete lack of talent front St. John's resulting in fouls and putbacks. There was a lot of things to criticize in pervious losses and close calls, but they were always guys being too aggressive and making silly turnovers or leaving people open on D as a result. This was a total lack of effort.

Bob Green
02-03-2018, 02:44 PM
The one over Gary? What was he supposed to do? Prayer shot went in.

Exactly. Trent was focused on not fouling a 3PT shooter at the end of the shot clock. He did everything he could do in that situation.

jipops
02-03-2018, 02:44 PM
Though we had a chance at the end, it felt like this ended once the 2nd half started. You could tell this would be a dud. Despite St John's biggest strength being the ability to force turnovers we were in no way remotely prepared for that. Else this game would have been over in the 1st half. It almost feels like the staff is starting to freestyle with this group. K has always been a master of preparation but it didn't appear so today.

Any chance we can show up Thursday with Wofford's uniforms? Could be our only shot.

dukelifer
02-03-2018, 02:45 PM
Exactly. Trent was focused on not fouling a 3PT shooter at the end of the shot clock. He did everything he could do in that situation.

That kid made some crazy shots all game. A St John’s kid goes off against Duke- has that ever happened before ;)

Dukehky
02-03-2018, 02:46 PM
Positives- Bolden, I thought anyway. They didn't quit when they were down 11. I guess that's nice?

Negatives- I don't want to get carpel tunnel.

Grayson just has to be better. The whole reason for having Duval is for Allen to hunt his shot. He's not doing that, except at times when Trent should probably be the guy shooting at this point. I know that's kind of contradictory, but to let G bring the ball up down 3 with 20 seconds left was just so stupid. Give it to Duval, who has been making plays. Worse case, he gets to rim and we're down 1 with 15 seconds left. Best case, you run our shooters off screens and get it to the guy who made 5-7 for the day. I know G got a pretty good shot off but that was sooooo lucky for him to get a look.

Carter was a disaster on pick and roll defense for 30 minutes today. Thought Bolden actually did a really good job.

I don't have any problems with the bench usage. MAYBE give O'Connell some run in the first half to see if he's in one of those moods where he's aggressive and is hot. Jack played pretty well today even with no buckets. Javin... I don't know if he's hurt or what, but anyone who is clamoring for him to get more minutes just isn't seeing the same things I see. His negative plays far outweigh the positives on the season as a whole. Maybe he just gets the Hairston treatment where refs salivate when he comes in, but he gives up a bad and 1 pretty often. THat's just what I'm seeing from him, don't mean to bash him, I just don't think he should be getting any minutes.

Also, we got Bootsie Thornton'd today, except that kid scores 30 on everyone who is any good.

Pretty bad loss. Hopefully we can convert that into positive energy to beat the absolute crap out of Carolina on Thursday.

St. Johns player also got away with fouling the crap out of our guards a ton, and I thought they walked on a lot of drives, but we got away with 2 goaltending calls so maybe it evened out. Thought the tone was set early that they were going to "let them play" (aka allow fouling). Maybe we got the benefit of the doubt too and I just didn't notice.

All that being said, I don't see us going out early the tournament. I don't understand that notion. I assume that we'll be better in March than we are now, which is still pretty damn good. I imagine that if we win on Thursday people will be happy again. No need to vent and be all alarmist about stuff, Jesus.

Also, the one and done thing is not the problem. Our one senior was probably our worst player for the vast majority of the game. He was a ghost on both ends of the floor for huge stretches in this game. Duke isn't recruiting anyone who sticks around for 4 years and is better than Grayson Allen. I know he's in a slump, but we need him to get the hell out of it. That being said, Scheyer and Singler were pretty bad for long stretches during 2010 and then they couldn't miss in the tournament. Law of averages, I would bet he plays better to close out the year.

jipops
02-03-2018, 02:47 PM
Duke starts five first round picks. St Johns has no NBA players. Duke was playing an away game in ‘Cameron North’. The crowd was probably 60% Duke. I know this cus I was at the game.

If you can’t blame the coaching staff, then I’m not sure who you can blame. Our coached against a coach likely to be fired this year. Wow...wow...

I'd be surprised if Allen and Duval were 1st round picks.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-03-2018, 02:48 PM
Unfortunately FT shooting sinks the team again- or at least changes the game. It is a big weakness and difficult to overcome during tourney time. This is a talented team but when 3 key guys are shaky from the line- it is very hard to win at the end of close games. St John’s came to play. Allen again struggled when needed most. Tough game coming up. Another huge challenge for the young kids- an emotional Duke UNC game is never ever easy. They will be shocked by the intensity.
We shot our season FT percentage which isn’t great. But I think this loss is pretty clearly related to our 18 TOs and their 16 Off Rebs. They generated 14 more FG attempts for the game.

OZ
02-03-2018, 02:49 PM
Turnovers and free throw shooting . . .

inside defense...hustling... getting loose balls... a sense of urgency

flyingdutchdevil
02-03-2018, 02:49 PM
...then who is gonna shout at the coaching staff?

flyingdutchdevil
02-03-2018, 02:51 PM
I'd be surprised if Allen and Duval were 1st round picks.

Based on his ACC play, I’d be shocked if Grayson is a first round pick. His shooting is his greatest asset. And he’s not hunting his shot on a consistent basis.

Les Grossman
02-03-2018, 02:51 PM
no improvement on D, turnover fest, lack of hustle.
Coach?

CameronDuke
02-03-2018, 02:51 PM
As many of us are diehard, avid fans of Duke Basketball, I ask politely - are we bigger fans of this program's success than many of these one and done freshmen we recruit now? I guess what I'm trying to say is, this loss today will sting for me personally until we play at UNC Thursday. As they all do. Do some of our freshmen feel the same way? I will still think about this loss after this season and for many years. Can the same be said for one and done freshmen Duke players who will be collecting a check in a few months that is more than I'll make for a long time? Again all due respect to how hard the young student athletes work. But it seemed many Duke players didn't have the same level of desire for a win today as maybe us fans always have. Seemed they just didn't have the fire, the juice, the go get it in them today in the second half. With all due respect.

MrPoon
02-03-2018, 02:52 PM
A bit of a perfect (red) storm for this one. Big win last game, road game against a poor team by record but better than that.
Young team looking ahead to UNC and who believes we are invincible even when we don’t play our best.
Probably should have prepared myself for this one even if the team didn’t.

I still say this team will have these ups and downs and be at risk for a surprise ending to the season if GA can’t find himself. To me its almost a separate thread. He has just not been the backstop type player we need when the game gets rocky. Cook would get a stop or a shot to help the team when the freshmen struggled. GA hasn’t. He’s been good in a lot of ways but this team needs him to be more and I just cannot understand it. There is no way teams are building their defensive plans around him any longer. Not with Carter, Bag, and Trent out there.

I’m baffled.
It will be a good season, it already is and can be so much more. I don’t even really care about this game. Freshmen teams lose games they shouldn’t. But we need GA back.

SupaDave
02-03-2018, 02:53 PM
I'd be surprised if Allen and Duval were 1st round picks.

They are indeed first round picks - however, Duval is slipping and will need to work on several aspects of his game - including free throw shooting, 3 point shooting, dribbling into corners, seeing the double team, and letting his man get in front of him and picking up ticky tacky fouls.

For the record, the refs certainly weren't giving it to Duke today (also somewhat in his defense).

AGDukesky
02-03-2018, 02:54 PM
The sad thing is I expected this type of game. Our team make up and typical road performances give me zero confidence. I would be shocked if this team gets beyond the Sweet Sixteen and put the O/U at one win in the NCAAs. We should all appreciate 2015 even more given that is the anomaly of modern Duke basketball...

CameronDuke
02-03-2018, 02:55 PM
What is the worst loss in February/March for an eventual national champion (RPI wise)? If Duke were to capture the 2018 Men's Basketball national championship in San Antonio in April, this would have to be the worst loss for an eventual national champion (gauging by RPI) in February/March ever. St. John's cannot have a good RPI, though I haven't checked yet. Could someone prove me wrong if Duke did win it all this year?

fraggler
02-03-2018, 02:56 PM
Exactly. Trent was focused on not fouling a 3PT shooter at the end of the shot clock. He did everything he could do in that situation.

And this is a great example of why this board has disappointingly become almost unreadable. There are maybe a dozen members who understand basketball well enough to discuss beyond knee jerk reactions, simplistic observations, and hot take hits against individuals. Like you said, Trent played that situation the way he was supposed to, but because Ponds hits an incredible three, some posters want to burn the program down.

We made too many mistakes and missed too many crucial free throws to win this, but St. John's earned it, too. They played out of their minds and shot well above normal. It isn't always a failing on Duke's part when someone plays a great game. We still have time to get better. Even if we don't, I am going to support them and cheer them on.

Let's go, Duke. 9F!

KandG
02-03-2018, 02:56 PM
If the 2015 Duke team is this team's ceiling and 2014 is the team's floor...well, today was clearly the floor. This was the recipe for how a super talented team can lose in the first round of the tournament. Other team wants it more, plays with more composure, gets to all the 50-50 balls, attacks our few weaknesses and relies on some luck and some of our inexperience to tilt things their way.

(feel free to insert "the ceiling is the floor" jokes here)

To their considerable credit, I thought St. John's played outstanding defense and were allowed to be very physical until midway through the second half. The turnovers were a killer for us in the first half, the missed FTs in the second (consecutive missed one-and-ones, plus those fateful missed Duval FTs). Limiting us to 11 points in nearly 11 minutes of the second half was Virginia-like, and they cut up our zone the moment we went to it.

In fact, the way they shredded our zone was arguably the turning point of the second half, and allowed them to get their lead up as much as they did.

Because this Duke team is so talented, naturally we vaporized the deficit within a few minutes once we buckled down a little on defense, contained Ponds temporarily, and stopped giving up the easy pick and roll baskets. But St. John's also had some luck and were able to extend the clock frequently down the stretch with the way they hustled after offensive rebounds.

Unfortunately, I do think these types of outcomes will continue if we don't get Grayson contributing more on offense sooner (he shouldn't be making his first basket with 30 seconds left) and don't get something...anything...from the bench. With that said, I was encouraged by Bolden's limited minutes when Bagley was in foul trouble, and hope he can build on what he did this afternoon.

Even though Duval missed the FTs, I thought he was a big part of how we were able to come back, and I mostly liked how he attacked in the second half. I think our offense needs to find other ways to get the bigs the ball, and the players just need to be quicker with their decisions...the turnovers too often were a result of just not being strong and decisive with the ball. Bagley looks especially frustrated lately with how poor some of the entry passes are, and he's settling for questionable threes when there's nothing inside for him.

Not going to get involved with the culture war about one-and-done the way some folks are...inexperienced, shallow team playing on the road, this is going to happen. And I'm going to emphasize that I like this team a lot. They're not mercenaries, they bleed for Duke as much as any four year senior that's played for us.

But I would like to see the coaching staff do more to get the one senior more involved and get Bolden & DuLaurier more effective minutes in future games. I can't be too optimistic about the team -- as awed as I am by the talent -- if it's going to be five players against the world the rest of the season.

Les Grossman
02-03-2018, 02:56 PM
Not gonna be fun walking down the halls of Tobin (the business school) at SJU on Monday...or teaching. Glad I low-keyed it, thinking that we would be in for a game...yuck

hahaha! My boss is a Johnny. Sent him a quick Congrats text at the buzzer. Fortunately, had not done any pre-game woofing. Knew better.

MrPoon
02-03-2018, 02:58 PM
I hate how these threads after a loss fall apart into some inditement around so and so and their draft ranking and or their class ranking. This is a really good team who clearly takes long stretches of games off especially against out classed teams.

We’ve seen this too many times. The team is insanely talented but they lack consistency and they struggle with pick and roll defense. To draw too much more from this game... walk away from the iPad a little while.

They have been trending the right way. Bolden looked a little better, Bagley has had a few below Bagley games, but we need GA back.

SupaDave
02-03-2018, 02:58 PM
What is the worst loss in February/March for an eventual national champion (RPI wise)? If Duke were to capture the 2018 Men's Basketball national championship in San Antonio in April, this would have to be the worst ever. St. John's cannot have a good RPI, though I haven't checked yet. Could someone prove me wrong if Duke did win it all this year?

1990 UNLV lost to UC Santa Barbara at the end of the year - 78-70. So naw... Too easy.

CameronDuke
02-03-2018, 02:59 PM
1990 UNLV lost to UC Santa Barbara at the end of the year - 78-70. So naw... Too easy.

Did they track RPI back then or no? If so, what was UCSB's RPI? If not, you aren't really answering my question. I'm talking since RPI has been tracked. Good point though.

Dukehky
02-03-2018, 03:00 PM
As many of us are diehard, avid fans of Duke Basketball, I ask politely - are we bigger fans of this program's success than many of these one and done freshmen we recruit now? I guess what I'm trying to say is, this loss today will sting for me personally until we play at UNC Thursday. As they all do. Do some of our freshmen feel the same way? I will still think about this loss after this season and for many years. Can the same be said for one and done freshmen Duke players who will be collecting a check in a few months that is more than I'll make for a long time? Again all due respect to how hard the young student athletes work. But it seemed many Duke players didn't have the same level of desire for a win today as maybe us fans always have. Seemed they just didn't have the fire, the juice, the go get it in them today in the second half. With all due respect.

Oh yeah? You care more about Duke winning than they do? This is ridiculous. Get off your high horse. Why are you talking about freshmen when Bagley Carter and Trent in particular are willing us to these comebacks?

Devilwin
02-03-2018, 03:00 PM
Our team has way too much talent to play like this. Totally unacceptable to turn the ball over like we do. And missed fts. And getting out hustled. This team like I said is super talented, but an early exit may be in the cards again if they don't get it together, and soon. Play like this against UNC we will get hammered, because, they are certainly better than St John's. This loss is more than embarrassing, it's downright humiliating. 3 of our 4 losses have been to unranked teams..Go figure.

jipops
02-03-2018, 03:00 PM
We've got 3 guys we can count on to produce something. 2 guys who have a tendency towards completely disappearing and who represent the back court. And then really nothing else...maybe a few minutes from Bolden.

CameronDuke
02-03-2018, 03:02 PM
Oh yeah? You care more about Duke winning than they do? This is ridiculous. Get off your high horse. Why are you talking about freshmen when Bagley Carter and Trent in particular are willing us to these comebacks?

I talk about the (one and done) freshmen because in 4 months they'll be history for Duke basketball. I'll be back in November caring as much as I ever did about this program's success when they're long gone and on an NBA roster.

westwall
02-03-2018, 03:02 PM
Too many turnovers, too many missed free throws, too many times getting beat to loose balls, rebounds, etc.


First post to cover it all — unfortunately.

SupaDave
02-03-2018, 03:02 PM
Did they track RPI back then or no? If so, what was UCSB's RPI? If not, you aren't really answering my question. I'm talking since RPI has been tracked. Good point though.

That I can't answer but Santa Barbara was 21-9 that year and lost in the first round of the conference tourney and in the second round of the NCAAs. Meanwhile - that UNLV team is considered one of the most dominant of all time...

dukelifer
02-03-2018, 03:03 PM
We shot our season FT percentage which isn’t great. But I think this loss is pretty clearly related to our 18 TOs and their 16 Off Rebs. They generated 14 more FG attempts for the game.

Yes that put Duke in a bad position of having to fight back but when you have the lead with two minutes to go- you have to execute. That means hitting the free shots. Duke did not. The 3 Ponds hit was crazy but Allen matched. Duke did not execute in crunch time. Let’s see what happens the next close game.

CoachJ10
02-03-2018, 03:04 PM
Free throws, turnovers, hustle...and the D-U-K-E effect have already been addressed. I have nothing more to add to that.

The refs today were the worst I have seen all year, and that is saying a lot. They were just atrocious. From calling simple things like out of bounds wrong, to letting the SJ players mug Carter and Bags inside the ENTIRE GAME, followed up with pathetic offensive fouls...to phantom fouls on SJ drives. They were just terrible. You could tell it was getting to K even more than usual.

There are 13 people on the court affecting play...and seemingly 3 of these people are allowed to do their thing with impunity, no matter how bad. Today was embarrassing.

Dukehky
02-03-2018, 03:04 PM
The sad thing is I expected this type of game. Our team make up and typical road performances give me zero confidence. I would be shocked if this team gets beyond the Sweet Sixteen and put the O/U at one win in the NCAAs. We should all appreciate 2015 even more given that is the anomaly of modern Duke basketball...

Really? The team that beat MSU without our best player in a neutral environment? The team that had 1 player play well against UVA and almost/probably should have won.

No. I expect this team to get to the Elite 8 at worst. 1 win.

Duke loses bad games every year dating back to... I don't know, forever. Duke lost at UVA in 2002 to a team that finished 7-9 in conference and 17-13 overall. I don't need to remind you who was on that team. That team was number 1 in the country on offense and defense.

Jeeze, it's a bad loss in early February. No one mentioned the beatdown we took on the road against Georgetown in 2010. Still came back and did okay.

jipops
02-03-2018, 03:05 PM
Based on his ACC play, I’d be shocked if Grayson is a first round pick. His shooting is his greatest asset. And he’s not hunting his shot on a consistent basis.

He's also more like 6-3. NBA not high on small shooting guards.

jipops
02-03-2018, 03:06 PM
Really? The team that beat MSU without our best player in a neutral environment? The team that had 1 player play well against UVA and almost/probably should have won.

No. I expect this team to get to the Elite 8 at worst. 1 win.

Duke loses bad games every year dating back to... I don't know, forever. Duke lost at UVA in 2002 to a team that finished 7-9 in conference and 17-13 overall. I don't need to remind you who was on that team. That team was number 1 in the country on offense and defense.

Jeeze, it's a bad loss in early February. No one mentioned the beatdown we took on the road against Georgetown in 2010. Still came back and did okay.

Big Big difference between that Gtown team and this St John's team. They finished 11 on kenpom that season. Johnnies won't make the NIT

weezie
02-03-2018, 03:07 PM
The team did not appear to have an abundance of energy this afternoon. Grayson Allen has to be more involved in the offense.

No one appears to be looking for him.

dukelifer
02-03-2018, 03:09 PM
He's also more like 6-3. NBA not high on small shooting guards.

And pt guards that can’t shoot off the dribble

rolm
02-03-2018, 03:09 PM
St. Johns is the last OOC team to beat Duke at CIS. Now we lose to them when they have not beaten anybody respectable this season. Hope we can get our act together and win the games we are supposed to. This loss will have NCAA seeding implications, unless we can run the table (which seems improbable based on current performance). Allen needs to find his shot and Marvin needs to get back to playing how he was earlier when he was dominating. Don't know what to say about the high number of turnovers. So many of them unforced. This team has a lot to work on before March. Let's hope we can get there. Duvall needs to play throughout the game as if it's the last 5 minutes, and we are down 8. This is easily our most disappointing game of the year.

DukeWarhead
02-03-2018, 03:09 PM
Practice tonight when they get back. Free throws and D. Free throws and D

proelitedota
02-03-2018, 03:09 PM
Big Big difference between that Gtown team and this St John's team. They finished 11 on kenpom that season. Johnnies won't make the NIT

We're blown out by Gtown. Today a vintage good Duke team would have won the last two minutes. If it turned out that some starters are sick then we can toss out this game.

scottdude8
02-03-2018, 03:09 PM
Anyone blaming Duval for this one is trying way to hard to stick to a chosen narrative. He missed those FTs but also nearly singlehandedly got us back in the game.

There’s a ton to nitpick about this game, but to me there’s one thing that we’re most likely to fix, and that’s Grayson. Our senior leader can’t go 39 minutes without a field goal, regardless of anything else going on. Part of it is he’s in a slump but he also seems to be deferring a ton. I trust that K will make some changes on offenses to get him the ball in some better spots as opposed to turning into just a facilitator.

It’s a crazy year in CBB guys. It’s been shown over and over that anyone can lose to anyone on the road... heck, UNC and Kansas can lose to anyone at home. The best coach in the game still has a month to put things in order with the most talent in the country. I still like those odds.

beach rev
02-03-2018, 03:09 PM
Feel free to prove my wrong, but Allen seems to really struggle in these "neutral" site games played in NBA arenas.

Grayson Allen vs. Michigan State at the United Center
40 minutes played 11-20, 7-11 on threes, 8-8 on free throws, 37 points

Durham Blue Devil
02-03-2018, 03:10 PM
Grayson was a preseason player of the year candidate. He needs to at least be an efficient role player, and a vocal leader, especially since he’s playing 40 minutes a game.

Duval is a roller coaster. The first half, he played like a mistake prone freshman. He was really struggling. Late in the second half, he single-handedly brought the team back. Then he had the back breaking 2 missed free throws at the end. If Duke is going to go deep in the tournament, they will need more consistent, less uneven play from their point guard. One thing that is inexcusable even if he is a freshman is being such a poor free throw shooter. For someone who plays at the highest of levels, it is inconceivable to not be a higher percentage FT shooter. My 12 year old niece and 10 year old nephew could shoot him out of the gym in a FT contest and they have no expectations of being division 1 players. It takes constant practice until it becomes second nature. He has been divisive on these boards all season for good reason - he shows such swings of very poor and very good play.

Bagley has struggled the past two games by his high standards, especially with turnovers.

I don’t recall seeing Duke get out hustled for 50/50 balls so consistently as today.

Let’s hope this is a February blip and nothing more. This is a BAD loss regardless of the fact that St. John’s has played many teams tough and has a Kenpom rating comparable to Wake Forest and BC. The fact is they were 0-11 in their past 11. There is no excuse.

I’m looking forward to reading Kedsy’s cut, paste, and disagree game backed up by voluminous statistics to make me feel better about the direction of this team, despite an inconsistent point guard presence and a senior preseason player of the year who has struggled mightily.

Wander
02-03-2018, 03:10 PM
And this is a great example of why this board has disappointingly become almost unreadable. There are maybe a dozen members who understand basketball well enough to discuss beyond knee jerk reactions, simplistic observations, and hot take hits against individuals. Like you said, Trent played that situation the way he was supposed to, but because Ponds hits an incredible three, some posters want to burn the program down.

We made too many mistakes and missed too many crucial free throws to win this, but St. John's earned it, too. They played out of their minds and shot well above normal. It isn't always a failing on Duke's part when someone plays a great game. We still have time to get better. Even if we don't, I am going to support them and cheer them on.


Yes and no. You're correct that the Ponds three at the end of the game is very obviously not a failing on Duke's defense, and anyone claiming otherwise is crazy. But, even if he had missed that shot and we won the game at the end, it still would have been an awful game on our part.

There's room between "the sky is falling" and "this game didn't reflect any failing on Duke's part."

weezie
02-03-2018, 03:11 PM
What about heart?

Does this team have a personality yet?

KenTankerous
02-03-2018, 03:11 PM
What a horrible game! Freethrow(aways), piss poor defense, somebody wake-up our hustle, WAIT, is she still on the bus?

BREATHE Duke nation.

Coach K is the Greatest of ALL Time. He has a plan. This has got to be part of it.

This is all pre-season Y'all! There was no championship at stake today. This was 18-23 year old folks learning.

Better they learn this lesson in February than late March.

Trust K

Next Play

freshmanjs
02-03-2018, 03:14 PM
What a horrible game! Freethrow(aways), piss poor defense, somebody wake-up our hustle, WAIT, is she still on the bus?

BREATHE Duke nation.

Coach K is the Greatest of ALL Time. He has a plan. This has got to be part of it.

This is all pre-season Y'all! There was no championship at stake today. This was 18-23 year old folks learning.

Better they learn this lesson in February than late March.

Trust K

Next Play

The next play philosophy has nothing to do with ignoring losses and poor play. Read coach k’s post game quotes. He said it was “unacceptable “

CameronBornAndBred
02-03-2018, 03:14 PM
I hate how these threads after a loss fall apart into some inditement around so and so and their draft ranking and or their class ranking. This is a really good team who clearly takes long stretches of games off especially against out classed teams.


I'm going to say your quote is why this team is not a good team. They are a talented team, but they are not good. A good team does not consistently lose to teams that they should be blowing out by half-time. A good team does not trail by double digits during half to those teams either, and need to fight back in the second half to prevail. Thankfully this team has done the latter enough so we avoid more meltdown threads.
There is a big difference between a team being talented and a team being good. The great teams, the championship teams combine both.
This is not a good team and they are increasingly frustrating to watch.

SamHouston
02-03-2018, 03:15 PM
I think the entire staff is more engaged in selling Duke to one year players than developing players. Duke replaces 3-4 players every year. With limited upperclassmen, there is less opportunity to learn how to play Duke Basketball. It is abundantly apparent.

KenTankerous
02-03-2018, 03:15 PM
and watch this:

http://akiesports.blogspot.com/2015/04/wisconsin-badgers-vs-duke-blue-devils.html

Bob Green
02-03-2018, 03:16 PM
No one appears to be looking for him.

That is a factor. He rarely touched the ball unless he was initiating the offense. He had four FG attempts before the three late 3PT attempts.

SupaDave
02-03-2018, 03:16 PM
I'm going to say your quote is why this team is not a good team. They are a talented team, but they are not good. A good team does not consistently lose to teams that should be blowing out by half-time. A good team does not trail by double digits during half to those teams either, and need to fight back in the second half to prevail. Thankfully this team has done the latter enough so we avoid more meltdown threads.
There is a big difference between a team being talented and a team being good. The great teams, the championship teams combine both.
This is not a good team and they are increasingly frustrating to watch.

If consistent losing is 4 losses then I'd like to really know what a bad team looks like. Sheesh. Panic much?

84Duke
02-03-2018, 03:16 PM
What a horrible game! Freethrow(aways), piss poor defense, somebody wake-up our hustle, WAIT, is she still on the bus?

BREATHE Duke nation.

Coach K is the Greatest of ALL Time. He has a plan. This has got to be part of it.

This is all pre-season Y'all! There was no championship at stake today. This was 18-23 year old folks learning.

Better they learn this lesson in February than late March.

Trust K

Next Play

It’s one hell of a crazy plan if this game was part of it.

Dukehky
02-03-2018, 03:17 PM
What about heart?

Does this team have a personality yet?

See Gary Trent. If everyone plays with the hatred of losing that he does, this team will be fine.

I think we kill UNC Thursday and then everyone will be happy again.

Ian
02-03-2018, 03:19 PM
"They made us look bad but then we made ourselves look bad. We didn't play basketball the first 32 minutes worthy of our program. ... It was disgusting, really."

I don't recall the last time K used such strong words to describe a Duke performance.

wobatus
02-03-2018, 03:19 PM
Duke starts five first round picks. St Johns has no NBA players. Duke was playing an away game in ‘Cameron North’. The crowd was probably 60% Duke. I know this cus I was at the game.


Ponds was RSCI 36. He might be able to make it.

Saratoga2
02-03-2018, 03:21 PM
Clearly coach K thinks Allen's play is critical to the success of the team as he stayed in for 40 minutes today. His shooting was not good nor did he find many opportunities to get it off. He did have some lazy pass turnovers but on the other hand he did put himself in a position to take a charge and dove on the floor to try to get TOs. The point is 40 minutes for him seems to be more than warranted based on the play I observed on the floor. Really, the alternative is O'Connell, so perhaps he hasn't been impressive in practice.

Kfanarmy
02-03-2018, 03:21 PM
That is a factor. He rarely touched the ball unless he was initiating the offense. He had four FG attempts before the three late 3PT attempts.

He is passing up shots. Watch closely...he has had many opportunites wherein he's paused, thought about it and thrown the ball.

KenTankerous
02-03-2018, 03:21 PM
The next play philosophy has nothing to do with ignoring losses and poor play. Read coach k’s post game quotes. He said it was “unacceptable “

I read next play to have everything to do with losses and poor play in that next play = be better.

I'm willing to learn, so please show me where this idea I've seen thrown about on this board does NOT apply to crappy losses and poor play. I have most of K's books so I can look up the references.

DukeWarhead
02-03-2018, 03:21 PM
Hopefully everyone will be talking about the Super Bowl on Monday and not this.

84Duke
02-03-2018, 03:22 PM
"They made us look bad but then we made ourselves look bad. We didn't play basketball the first 32 minutes worthy of our program. ... It was disgusting, really."

I don't recall the last time K used such strong words to describe a Duke performance.

Throw this K fellow off the forum! He is right, of course. Now what happens? I don’t see this year’s team learning a lot from losses, where previous successful teams usually did.

freshmanjs
02-03-2018, 03:23 PM
I read next play to have everything to do with losses and poor play in that next play = be better.

I'm willing to learn, so please show me where this idea I've seen thrown about on this board does NOT apply to crappy losses and poor play. I have most of K's books so I can look up the references.

Next play is about not letting one bad play compound into another one. It is about being ready and involved in the next play mentally. It’s not “oh well, we lost but let’s ignore that”

Again - read his press conference. It’s the strongest set of comments he’s made in the last 20 years at least.

arnie
02-03-2018, 03:23 PM
I'm going to say your quote is why this team is not a good team. They are a talented team, but they are not good. A good team does not consistently lose to teams that they should be blowing out by half-time. A good team does not trail by double digits during half to those teams either, and need to fight back in the second half to prevail. Thankfully this team has done the latter enough so we avoid more meltdown threads.
There is a big difference between a team being talented and a team being good. The great teams, the championship teams combine both.
This is not a good team and they are increasingly frustrating to watch.

Good post. I get crticized when I say expectations are too high; but I firmly believe that making the sweet sixteen will be an accomplishment. This team is not mirror image of 2015 - I don’t see a Matt Jones, Amile Jefferson, Quinn Cook or Justise Winslow type player on this roster. The team will continue to develop, but going far in NCAA would be a pleasant surprise.

azzefkram
02-03-2018, 03:23 PM
The D was mostly shoddy. The O was out of sorts with way too many lazy passes. Duke got out hustled for just about every 50-50 ball. This team can be so frickin' exasperating. I swear I'm not going to watch a single one of their games for the next four days ;)

KenTankerous
02-03-2018, 03:25 PM
It’s one hell of a crazy plan if this game was part of it.

It helps if you laugh maniacal over your coffee - or beer - or hot chocolate from http://scoutmob.com/p/Hot-Chocolate-Ticket-Sticks-Set-of-12?ref=cat_home_food-and-drink

bluenorth
02-03-2018, 03:26 PM
The team as a whole looked disinterested for most of the game. Not what one would expect from a Duke team. They seemed to think that showing up was all it would take to register a win. As far as Duval is concerned, he is indeed a roller coaster, as someone else mentioned. I would be happier if on defense he at least could force his man to go wide around him, instead of what we're seeing. He is great when he goes to hoop, but if I were an opposing coach I'd tell my players to foul him, especially late in the game.

Bay Area Duke Fan
02-03-2018, 03:30 PM
We have 5 extremely talented starters; several moderately talented reserves; haven’t yet learned to play well together as a team, offensively or defensively; especially bad on defense. Senior captain is not getting it done; what’s happened to his great scoring ability? Four weeks of regular season left. Can K get this team ready to win tournaments?

Dukehky
02-03-2018, 03:31 PM
As Woody from Toy Story once said:

"THIS IS A PERFECT TIME TO PANIC!!!"

Kidding, it's not. If we play like doo doo on Thursday, I'll reevaluate.

JD for Three!
02-03-2018, 03:33 PM
Grayson still seems to be directing the action on the floor a lot of the time, and that may turn out to be his role. I would assume that if K was unhappy with his okay, and felt he had someone better on the beach, then we would see that happen.
Even with his scoring down, I think he does a lot to lift this team up.

duke4ever19
02-03-2018, 03:33 PM
As Woody from Toy Story once said:

"THIS IS A PERFECT TIME TO PANIC!!!"

Kidding, it's not. If we play like doo doo on Thursday, I'll reevaluate.

Where's is this supposed to be directing us? I clicked on it but nothing happened? I ended up on pinterest.

Edit: Gotcha. I was just hoping it was a link to K's post game press conference.

Dukehky
02-03-2018, 03:34 PM
Where's is this supposed to be directing us? I clicked on it but nothing happened? I ended up on pinterest.

Yeah, I tried to do a gif. Failed. See the edited post. Sorry.

KandG
02-03-2018, 03:34 PM
He is passing up shots. Watch closely...he has had many opportunites wherein he's paused, thought about it and thrown the ball.

I'd agree here...Grayson at times looks almost overly deferential, like he wants to make sure the bigs get theirs or the ball swings around. If he's at least creating gravity around the threat of his three point shooting and extending the defense so that the bigs get more room to operate, that would be one thing. But that's not what I saw against St. John's.

To cite an extreme example, look at that crazy 3 point shot Jerome of Virginia made against us that was effectively the dagger (made it a five point game). Grayson has that kind of range. But if defenses don't think Grayson's going to even consider a shot from a few feet behind the 3 point line and will only shoot off designed plays or when he's wide open, then we become easier to defend.

Not proposing that Grayson starts jacking up improbable or overly long 3s. But the shell he's in now is just too much on the other extreme.

wobatus
02-03-2018, 03:35 PM
See Gary Trent. If everyone plays with the hatred of losing that he does, this team will be fine.

I think we kill UNC Thursday and then everyone will be happy again.

I think they'll be up for the UNC game. they seem to need a challenge. They may be better in the tournaments than they have shown in some regular season games.

fraggler
02-03-2018, 03:36 PM
Yes and no. You're correct that the Ponds three at the end of the game is very obviously not a failing on Duke's defense, and anyone claiming otherwise is crazy. But, even if he had missed that shot and we won the game at the end, it still would have been an awful game on our part.

There's room between "the sky is falling" and "this game didn't reflect any failing on Duke's part."

Who said this game didn't reflect any failing on Duke's part? I already mentioned our turnovers and missed free throws. Don't project your own tendency towards extremes onto me. And you can keep your negativity, too. St. John's played out of their minds and pushed us to play better than we did. I am disappointed that we couldn't step up our game in the loss, but I don't see it as an awful one - and certainly not if we had actually won. You telling me there is a middle ground while talking in extremes is both ironic and annoying.

bluenorth
02-03-2018, 03:36 PM
Grayson still seems to be directing the action on the floor a lot of the time, and that may turn out to be his role. I would assume that if K was unhappy with his okay, and felt he had someone better on the beach, then we would see that happen.
Even with his scoring down, I think he does a lot to lift this team up.

Agreed. He seems to have bought into his role as leader and facilitator, and is deferring in the area of scoring. He is, IMO, making a huge sacrifice for the sake of the team and for Duke.

drummerdevil
02-03-2018, 03:36 PM
So, we had a bad game. It happens. Stew on it for a while and then beat the crap out of unc in frustration. We’re still duke, guys, even if we don’t always look like it. I think there’s no way we have low energy for unc.

CoachJ10
02-03-2018, 03:37 PM
Anyone have a link to the post game press conference?

Dukehky
02-03-2018, 03:40 PM
I think they'll be up for the UNC game. they seem to need a challenge. They may be better in the tournaments than they have shown in some regular season games.

I actually think this is a really good point. We have played to the moment pretty often this year, with the exception of UVA. No one on this team is going to sleep through the NCAA tournament, and our flaws can be overcome by effort unlike lots of other years like 2017 and 2014.

I believe that we will play with the requisite effort.

Go Duke.

JBDuke
02-03-2018, 03:42 PM
I think the entire staff is more engaged in selling Duke to one year players than developing players. Duke replaces 3-4 players every year. With limited upperclassmen, there is less opportunity to learn how to play Duke Basketball. It is abundantly apparent.

This is a flat-out ridiculous assertion, and apparent only to you, I'd guess. Even the most shallow look at recent history proves this false. Players like Amile Jefferson, Marshall Plumlee, Quinn Cook, etc. didn't develop over their time at Duke? The coaching staff clearly makes an effort to bring in the best talent they can that fit the profile of the kids they believe can succeed at Duke - whether that's for one year or four. One-and-done players obviously don't get the same amount of time with the staff, so the amount of change in their games may be more limited, but plenty of others have stuck around, even over the last few years, and many have shown significant improvement.

duke74
02-03-2018, 03:43 PM
hahaha! My boss is a Johnny. Sent him a quick Congrats text at the buzzer. Fortunately, had not done any pre-game woofing. Knew better.

Suck up. :)

I am obviously outnumbered here. This school has a long and (generally) great BB history. Offices adorned by signed pictures of Lou Carnesecca, Mullin, Berry, Artest, Wennington, et. al. I'm blue in a sea of red (the reverse of politically, being in NYC.)

And I work with Bill(y) Shaffer in my role on the Tobin Dean's staff (in addition to being a professor). A really good guy, but boy will he give it to me.

ncexnyc
02-03-2018, 03:45 PM
That was one ugly loss.

So we've had a number of posts saying that things will get better, but sadly that has been the refrain all season long. Do those of you saying that realize we are now into February? And to those who want to quote our improving defensive stats, let me remind you to take those numbers with a grain of salt as we didn't exactly play the cream of the ACC during that stretch. Aside from UVA, who isn't know for its offensive prowess, we feasted on Pitt and Wake.

I'm also seeing a lot said about Allen. Yes, you expect a lot more from your pre-season All-American candidate. The Rock was fond of saying, "Know Your Damn Role." Maybe that's part of Allen's problem. Maybe Coach K. hasn't developed a game plan that is suited for Allen's abilities. The kid seems to be caught between a rock and a hard place in that Gary has surpassed him as our 3pt specialist and Duval is our primary ball handler. With MBIII and Carter down low, Allen seems to be the odd man out.

Nice to see Bolden play better than his previous outing. He sure did look rusty in his last game, but today he seemed more confident in his knee and moved a lot better. Sadly, no Alex for whatever reason and Javin gave us his usual foul. Jack played strong and that has been a continuing trend, which pleases me. However, as several others have already said when you don't trust a kid enough to give him meaningful burn in the early season, how on earth can you ever expect to trust him in a situation like today or at the end of the season when the chips are on the line and your starters are sleep walking through a game?

And I'll close by saying that I'll take a PG who shoots 87% over one that shoots 60% any day of the week. So much for that debate.

devilseven
02-03-2018, 03:48 PM
I'd agree here...Grayson at times looks almost overly deferential, like he wants to make sure the bigs get theirs or the ball swings around. If he's at least creating gravity around the threat of his three point shooting and extending the defense so that the bigs get more room to operate, that would be one thing. But that's not what I saw against St. John's.

To cite an extreme example, look at that crazy 3 point shot Jerome of Virginia made against us that was effectively the dagger (made it a five point game). Grayson has that kind of range. But if defenses don't think Grayson's going to even consider a shot from a few feet behind the 3 point line and will only shoot off designed plays or when he's wide open, then we become easier to defend.

Not proposing that Grayson starts jacking up improbable or overly long 3s. But the shell he's in now is just too much on the other extreme.

Why shouldn't Grayson jack up improbable or overly long 3s? Bagley certainly doesn't have any reservations about it.

Chicago 1995
02-03-2018, 03:48 PM
Right now, we're not a well coached team. I know that K is the GOAT, but body of work doesn't make what he's doing with this team more effective.

Are we any better than we were coming out of Portland? Is there anything as a team we do better? I don't see it.

I'm not excusing the players, but the coaching approach isn't working with this group. That's got to change. Got to be better. If it doesn't, better effort will help, but this team's ceiling will still get dragged down by the coaching staff not putting the team in the best position to succeed. They aren't doing that right now. They just aren't.

I'd pose that the rotation needs to expand -- particularly at the guard position -- and that right now, we're way, way too reliant on Grayson and that's not working for anyone. Maybe we need to put Grayson in the position he was in where he started to succeed last year where he came off the bench for a while.

Chicago 1995
02-03-2018, 03:49 PM
Why shouldn't Grayson jack up improbable or overly long 3s? Bagley certainly doesn't have any reservations about it.

I think we've seen that movie and know that it doesn't end well.

wavedukefan70s
02-03-2018, 03:52 PM
Frustrated. I have hopes we can still turn it around.

Kjeffrey
02-03-2018, 03:53 PM
Right now, we're not a well coached team. I know that K is the GOAT, but body of work doesn't make what he's doing with this team more effective.

Are we any better than we were coming out of Portland? Is there anything as a team we do better? I don't see it.

I'm not excusing the players, but the coaching approach isn't working with this group. That's got to change. Got to be better. If it doesn't, better effort will help, but this team's ceiling will still get dragged down by the coaching staff not putting the team in the best position to succeed. They aren't doing that right now. They just aren't.

I'd pose that the rotation needs to expand -- particularly at the guard position -- and that right now, we're way, way too reliant on Grayson and that's not working for anyone. Maybe we need to put Grayson in the position he was in where he started to succeed last year where he came off the bench for a while.

You raise some very interesting points. I look forward to seeing the game plan for Thursday.

Wander
02-03-2018, 03:55 PM
Who said this game didn't reflect any failing on Duke's part? I already mentioned our turnovers and missed free throws. Don't project your own tendency towards extremes onto me. And you can keep your negativity, too. St. John's played out of their minds and pushed us to play better than we did. I am disappointed that we couldn't step up our game in the loss, but I don't see it as an awful one - and certainly not if we had actually won. You telling me there is a middle ground while talking in extremes is both ironic and annoying.

Dude, take a breather. There's no "tendency towards extremes" or negativity here - I think it's a bad loss and we're still a very good team. St. John's played well but not "out of their minds." We can still feel good about Duke without making up stuff like that.

DU82
02-03-2018, 03:55 PM
So, we had a bad game. It happens. Stew on it for a while and then beat the crap out of unc in frustration. We’re still duke, guys, even if we don’t always look like it. I think there’s no way we have low energy for unc.

As long as you burn your unlucky socks we should rebound (and hit free throws!)

Ian
02-03-2018, 03:56 PM
Who said this game didn't reflect any failing on Duke's part? I already mentioned our turnovers and missed free throws. Don't project your own tendency towards extremes onto me. And you can keep your negativity, too. St. John's played out of their minds and pushed us to play better than we did. I am disappointed that we couldn't step up our game in the loss, but I don't see it as an awful one - and certainly not if we had actually won. You telling me there is a middle ground while talking in extremes is both ironic and annoying.

It may not be awful to you, both K called it "disgusting" and "unworthy of the program" and I think I'll take his assessment over yours.


https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/959879256833757184

Chicago 1995
02-03-2018, 04:01 PM
It may not be awful to you, both K called it "disgusting" and "unworthy of the program" and I think I'll take his assessment over yours.

When a coach calls out that kind of effort, using terms like that, I'd suggest that his own performance needs to be beyond reproach. Personally, I don't think Ks got clean enough hands to make that kind of a call out. The kids need an extra practice when we get back. Fine. The effort needs to be better and more consistent. Fine. But the mirror needs to be employed here too.

Emerrick
02-03-2018, 04:01 PM
Presser link I used:
https://t.co/kxY1eeEzGL

Can’t recall the last time I heard Coach this pissed.

My own observation was the team largely lacked passion. Carter finally got mad but it was too late. We need 40 min of all out passionate play and the will to do anything to get the ball. Perhaps we learn from this. I know Coach will his part. Those boys are gonna have 5 days of solid roasting.

TNTDevil
02-03-2018, 04:05 PM
All part of Coach K's evil plan...to give Curalina hope.

duke4ever19
02-03-2018, 04:11 PM
And I'll close by saying that I'll take a PG who shoots 87% over one that shoots 60% any day of the week. So much for that debate.

Maybe I'm missing something, but . . .

I'll gladly take $87,000 over $60,000, however, I'm assuming that both of us are dealing with purely hypothetical situations here. Likewise, I'd rather have vintage John Stockton appear from a time machine and help run a pick and roll with Bagley and Carter, than have Duval try it.

What is the debate here and who is the person you have in mind that can step in right now and run the Duke offense, distribute the ball and shoot 87% from the line? Is this a previous Duke PG or one we have on the bench, or a future player, or someone you wished Duke got, but he went elsewhere to play ball?

flyingdutchdevil
02-03-2018, 04:12 PM
When a coach calls out that kind of effort, using terms like that, I'd suggest that his own performance needs to be beyond reproach. Personally, I don't think Ks got clean enough hands to make that kind of a call out. The kids need an extra practice when we get back. Fine. The effort needs to be better and more consistent. Fine. But the mirror needs to be employed here too.

This. 100% this. I really hope Coach K blames himself and the rest of the coaching staff for this loss. Putting it all on the players is complete BS, IMO.

MartyClark
02-03-2018, 04:12 PM
Okay, watched the game, took a nap, drank a beer. I'm calm.

This game was not encouraging.. The defense was not good but it has often been bad this year.

The offense was a mess. Bagley has bailed this team out at times making impossible, bad angle, leaping shots. Not so much today.

Trent was great. Duval played well at the end.

I think Grayson is not sure of his role or, as someone else said, is overly deferential. He was getting mugged early in the game. #1 was pushing him, jawing at him, blocking his offball movement with arms outstretched. #18 guarded Grayson a lot at the end and was aggressive but not mugging Grayson as much.

I made this comment a few times on DBR chat, nobody responded, so maybe I'm wrong. Grayson is trying to run the baseline to get open. Nobody sets a pick for him. Somebody please remind me whether Duke set picks for J.J. under the same circumstances. When Grayson is getting mugged running the baseline, why don't we set picks for him. A hard, clean pick on his defender could change Grayson's game and change the course of the game. K has said that Grayson is a great shooter. If so, why doesn't K run plays to get him a shot?

Full disclaimer - I coached my sons in grades 2 through 6. I coached an adult Special Olympics team for ten years. I have no real coaching experience so could be wrong. I think we need to give our senior opportunities to score.

I am going to sulk for the rest of the day and then get ready for the big game against the Cheaters. Go Duke.

Kjeffrey
02-03-2018, 04:14 PM
This. 100% this. I really hope Coach K blames himself and the rest of the coaching staff for this loss. Putting it all on the players is complete BS, IMO.

And sounds like another Tobacco Road coach...

mgtr
02-03-2018, 04:14 PM
Presser link I used:
https://t.co/kxY1eeEzGL

Can’t recall the last time I heard Coach this pissed.

My own observation was the team largely lacked passion. Carter finally got mad but it was too late. We need 40 min of all out passionate play and the will to do anything to get the ball. Perhaps we learn from this. I know Coach will his part. Those boys are gonna have 5 days of solid roasting.

We played poorly, and SJU played extremely well. It is one game in early February. I don't think we can read more than that into it. With this level of effort, we don't beat Wisconsin in 2015. I think this team will look more like Duke in the next few games. I remain positive.

KenTankerous
02-03-2018, 04:16 PM
I recall these same conversations in 2010, through 2015 into 20whenever.

Keep the faith I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.es!

CameronDuke
02-03-2018, 04:19 PM
I recall these same conversations in 2010, through 2015 into 20whenever.

Keep the faith I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.es!

In 2010 when Duke lost at Georgetown, at least Georgetown was 23-11 that year. No chance St. John's wins 23 games this year.

Kjeffrey
02-03-2018, 04:22 PM
Presser link I used:
https://t.co/kxY1eeEzGL

Can’t recall the last time I heard Coach this pissed.

My own observation was the team largely lacked passion. Carter finally got mad but it was too late. We need 40 min of all out passionate play and the will to do anything to get the ball. Perhaps we learn from this. I know Coach will his part. Those boys are gonna have 5 days of solid roasting.

Thank you for posting that link. It is certainly an interesting press conference. If the players didn't respond to anything for 32 minutes then perhaps others should have been given a chance. Maybe I see it too simplistically but when the coach makes that comment (among others) questioning their heart and effort then it would seem a different lineup was warranted.

MartyClark
02-03-2018, 04:23 PM
I recall these same conversations in 2010, through 2015 into 20whenever.

Keep the faith I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.es!

I'm happy to keep the faith but am not sure why you are calling us/me "I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.es". Inappropriate.

Emerrick
02-03-2018, 04:25 PM
Right now, we're not a well coached team.

I'm not excusing the players, but the coaching approach isn't working with this group. That's got to change. Got to be better. If it doesn't, better effort will help, but this team's ceiling will still get dragged down by the coaching staff not putting the team in the best position to succeed. They aren't doing that right now. They just aren't.

I'd pose that the rotation needs to expand -- particularly at the guard position -- and that right now, we're way, way too reliant on Grayson and that's not working for anyone. Maybe we need to put Grayson in the position he was in where he started to succeed last year where he came off the bench for a while.

Based on the presser, it sounded like his players didn’t do what they were asked. How is that the coaching? I agree we are weak at point guard - that’s been true all season. Duval has a long way still to go. But who is better at this point in the season? It sure isn’t Goldwire who looks scared out there. Perhaps Grayson should run poin...

Anyway, we played ok. FTs sucked, Grayson needs to get open and demand the ball, and we have to limit turnovers. That was ridiculous today. They hit a great shot right in Trent’s face. Great play for them. I disagree this was coaching fault. The coaches didn’t miss free throws, they didn’t commit the dozen or so TOs, they didn’t miss the 3 pointers at the end. They did get us back in the game and keep Bagley in the game.

Despite Duval’s play at the end of the game, we are weak at point. He isn’t distributing as well as he could in my opinion. What is the solution? We can’t just conjure up a great pg. Sometimes, you just have to play the cards you’re dealt.

Emerrick
02-03-2018, 04:34 PM
And sounds like another Tobacco Road coach...

Nah, this was different. I highly suspect they deserved the criticism he dished out today. He rarely if ever does this. Because I’m not part of the coaching staff and not privy to the direction Coach gave his players during the game, it is hard for me judge whether it was warranted. Yet, given his history, I’d place my bets that it was.

Troublemaker
02-03-2018, 04:40 PM
I don't completely buy only blaming this loss on effort/focus (although I can buy that as being the main culprit, sure). Additionally, we should've had our big men perform a deep drop on the pick-n-roll, imo. It takes away the roller, and perimeter players don't have to help off shooters to tag the roller. Instead, we had our big men out high doing a lateral contain, which hurt us with guards blowing by our big men for layups, with rollers getting opportunities around the basket, and with shooters getting catch-and-shoot opportunities as our defenders leave them to tag the roller.

That said, late in the game Coach K used both defenders in the PNR to trap the ball-handler to get the ball out of his hands, which helped us get back into the game. The trap eliminates the drive and takes away vision for passing. I still prefer the deep drop, especially as the basis for 30-40 minutes of defensive play, but the trap was a good move late in the game.

4 out of the past 6 games, Duke's offense has coughed up turnovers on 23+% of possessions, including today's dismal 26.4% turnover rate. That's more than a quarter of possessions today, haha! Obviously, we have to get back to protecting the ball better, or this team won't do much in the postseason. Now, if that means lowering the amount of postups we do because we keep turning the ball over on entry passes, so be it. You can't keep banging your head against the wall, right? But running fewer stagnant postups would also help. Make the postup the second or third action in a sequence of actions, and it will help. Move the post defender around before you post him up, and it will help.

On the positive side, Bolden gave us really solid minutes. Happy for him, and hope he can continue putting up efforts like today's.

rsvman
02-03-2018, 04:40 PM
I am having a hard time understanding why Duval seems virtually unstoppable when we are down near the end of the game, but not at other times. He seems to have another gear, but he only shifts into it when we are completely on the ropes. Then he instantaneously becomes the kind of guard that has often given our defense fits.
Is he capable of doing that earlier in the game? If so, why doesn't he? It's baffling. Other than the missed free throws, he seemed like the best player on the court in the last 3-4 minutes of the game, just like he did against Florida State.
I'd like to see that Duval show up a bit earlier in the game.

CDu
02-03-2018, 04:44 PM
Saw a comment that this St John's team didn't have any NBA talent. Shamorie Ponds has NBA talent. He's probably got more of an NBA future than Allen, in my opinion. Better ball skills. Streakier shooter (he was terrific from 3 last year, but has struggled from 3 this year), but way better with the ball in his hands.

That said, it was definitely still a game we should have won. St. John's is much more talented than their record suggests, but we still should have won. I haven't seen the post-game press conference or read it, but it sounds like Coach K was more than a little disappointed in his team today.

It looked briefly like we were going to pull another rabbit out of our hat thanks to Duval's big-time stretch late and Carter's blocks. But we just couldn't get enough stops of Ponds, and missed too many of our chances on the other end. Way too many turnovers, and the defense was just not good enough today. That's a bad combination.

Hopefully this loss lights a fire under the team. It would be nice with us heading to Chapel Hill on Thursday. We have to play better though if we're going to win in March/April. This one was frustrating.

UrinalCake
02-03-2018, 04:44 PM
Definitely felt like the team didn’t respect their opponent and got caught up in the magnitude of playing in MSG. Maybe looking ahead to next Thursday, I don’t know. St John’s has one of the worst perimeter defenses in all of P5, they are 329th in the country in three pointers allowed. Grayson should have been licking his chops at the chance to light them up from three, especially after Bagley went out with his fourth. His passivity was inexplicable. I get that he’s trying to get others involved, but he has to take on more offensive responsibility as well. His first made bucket was the three with under a minute left.

Our offense is so predictable - one of the bigs remains stationary and calls for the ball, while the guards struggle to get it to him. Defenses can sag off and jump the passing lanes because they’re not worried about our guards attacking. Bagley also needs to improve on reacting to the double team, he pretty much just dribbles away from the basket and allows the defense to reset.

I have to assume that O’Connell is still sick because Jack basically got all of his minutes. Who knows what the status of the rest of the team is; Wendell looked pretty white faced during timeouts. Bolden provided good minutes so I guess that’s a plus. Mostly though, this game is one that I want to just put behind me and hope that it was one of those days that the team just didn’t have it and hopefully they’ll have used it up so it doesn’t happen later.

DukeWarhead
02-03-2018, 04:45 PM
Well, at least Kansas and Kentucky lost today also. Misery loves company and all that. Maybe Pitt can learn how to win in next couple hours and squeak it out in Chapel Hole

KandG
02-03-2018, 04:45 PM
Presser link I used:
https://t.co/kxY1eeEzGL

Can’t recall the last time I heard Coach this pissed.



Thanks for the link. One interesting side note: a questioner seemed to be trying to probe about Grayson's shots, possibly whether he was shooting enough (my speculation), but K shot it down by saying he is fine with any player taking good shots as long as they're open. Didn't seem interested in focusing on any one player's role in general given the overall team underachievement in this game.

Also, K was right to correct the reporter who wrongly assumed the team started doing well once they switched to zone. As I noted upthread, St. John's destroyed the zone. (I suspect one of the reasons Duke floundered for an extended period in the 2nd half was that they were floored that the zone wasn't slowing St. John's down at all). As K noted, it wasn't until they trapped the ball screen that they finally started containing St. John's attack.

Chicago 1995
02-03-2018, 04:46 PM
Based on the presser, it sounded like his players didn’t do what they were asked. How is that the coaching? I agree we are weak at point guard - that’s been true all season. Duval has a long way still to go. But who is better at this point in the season? It sure isn’t Goldwire who looks scared out there. Perhaps Grayson should run poin...

Anyway, we played ok. FTs sucked, Grayson needs to get open and demand the ball, and we have to limit turnovers. That was ridiculous today. They hit a great shot right in Trent’s face. Great play for them. I disagree this was coaching fault. The coaches didn’t miss free throws, they didn’t commit the dozen or so TOs, they didn’t miss the 3 pointers at the end. They did get us back in the game and keep Bagley in the game.

Despite Duval’s play at the end of the game, we are weak at point. He isn’t distributing as well as he could in my opinion. What is the solution? We can’t just conjure up a great pg. Sometimes, you just have to play the cards you’re dealt.

If the coach can’t effectively communicate to his players, it’s on the coach.

As for Duval, he’s a very talented freshman. He’s been more inconsistent than we’d like, but I don’t get singling him out. And I certainly don’t think there’s any reason to think putting more of a burden on Grayson will help him or the team.

Kjeffrey
02-03-2018, 04:48 PM
Nah, this was different. I highly suspect they deserved the criticism he dished out today. He rarely if ever does this. Because I’m not part of the coaching staff and not privy to the direction Coach gave his players during the game, it is hard for me judge whether it was warranted. Yet, given his history, I’d place my bets that it was.

Completely agree. It just reminded me of Ol' Roy throwing his players under the bus.

kAzE
02-03-2018, 04:54 PM
Biggest difference between this Duke team right now and when we were #1 early in the year was that we used to get almost every loose ball and killed teams on the boards. We barely out-rebounded them, but it felt like they got 10 offensive boards in the last few minutes. Also seemed like they got every single 50-50 ball on important possessions down the stretch. They just wanted it more than we did.

TKG
02-03-2018, 04:56 PM
In the press conference Coach mentioned that maybe guys were "into their own thing". K controls playing time. I will be interested to see if he sends a message by sitting guys (regardless of star power), if need be.

JBDuke
02-03-2018, 04:57 PM
Duke gets all the calls, right?

https://twitter.com/henman11/status/959837837351845888

CDu
02-03-2018, 04:58 PM
Completely agree. It just reminded me of Ol' Roy throwing his players under the bus.

Yeah, it definitely had an 'Ole Roy feel to it. I can't say that I like that. He must be REALLY frustrated with the team to bash them that hard in the press conference. Typically he's kept it more in-house. Don't care for it, but hopefully it gets the message across.

flyingdutchdevil
02-03-2018, 04:58 PM
In the press conference Coach mentioned that maybe guys were "into their own thing". K controls playing time. I will be interested to see if he sends a message by sitting guys (regardless of star power), if need be.

I would love to see a mass benching to start the UNC game. That would be perfect. “You’re so talented but you don’t have the heart to start against the biggest regular season game of the year.” Do it coach.

flyingdutchdevil
02-03-2018, 04:59 PM
Yeah, it definitely had an 'Ole Roy feel to it. I can't say that I like that. He must be REALLY frustrated with the team to bash them that hard in the press conference. Typically he's kept it more in-house. Don't care for it, but hopefully it gets the message across.

Did he bash any player in particular?

CDu
02-03-2018, 04:59 PM
Duke gets all the calls, right?

https://twitter.com/henman11/status/959837837351845888

To be fair, he may have immediately returned the favor on the other end, as he called a St John's player out of bounds on the ensuing possession. Couldn't see the play closely enough to tell if it was indeed a makeup. But yeah, that is a pretty poor out of bounds call.

kshepinthehouse
02-03-2018, 05:00 PM
Duke gets all the calls, right?

https://twitter.com/henman11/status/959837837351845888

Can’t think of a worse call I’ve ever seen in my entire life. I don’t think the ref was even looking at the line. He couldn’t have been or he would have seen Bagley’s foot was 18 inches away. Lol

CDu
02-03-2018, 05:01 PM
Did he bash any player in particular?

Nope, the team in general. But he said they weren't coachable today, and that their play was unacceptable and disgusting. Really out-of-character comments about his team.

MartyClark
02-03-2018, 05:01 PM
I would love to see a mass benching to start the UNC game. That would be perfect. “You’re so talented but you don’t have the heart to start against the biggest regular season game of the year.” Do it coach.

I don't sense that these kids are resisting good coaching. They seem to be good kids, talented, but respectful and listening to the coach.

It's hard to know what happens behind the scenes, we are all on the outside looking in.

IMHO, could well be wrong, this was a coaching defeat on K.

Kjeffrey
02-03-2018, 05:01 PM
Duke gets all the calls, right?

https://twitter.com/henman11/status/959837837351845888

Too bad Bagley's sneakers are the same color as the floor. What other excuse could there be to make that horrible call??

heyman25
02-03-2018, 05:04 PM
Headline on ESPN website Duke loses to St. John's after 'disgusting' performance
http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/120864/duke-loses-to-st-johns-after-disgusting-performance[/url]

It is February not certain if this team has what it takes to have a great post season. Let us hope they prove us all wrong.

CDu
02-03-2018, 05:06 PM
Headline on ESPN website Duke loses to St. John's after 'disgusting' performance
http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/120864/duke-loses-to-st-johns-after-disgusting-performance[/url]

It is February not certain if this team has what it takes to have a great post season. Let us hope they prove us all wrong.

"Disgusting" was from Coach K's post-game press conference quote that they used.

KenTankerous
02-03-2018, 05:09 PM
It's cute that y'all think K tells the media anything other than what they wanna hear.

duke96
02-03-2018, 05:10 PM
I am having a hard time understanding why Duval seems virtually unstoppable when we are down near the end of the game, but not at other times. He seems to have another gear, but he only shifts into it when we are completely on the ropes. Then he instantaneously becomes the kind of guard that has often given our defense fits.
Is he capable of doing that earlier in the game? If so, why doesn't he? It's baffling. Other than the missed free throws, he seemed like the best player on the court in the last 3-4 minutes of the game, just like he did against Florida State.
I'd like to see that Duval show up a bit earlier in the game.

Totally agree. Was at the game and Duval was playing with a completely different level of energy and aggressiveness the last few minutes. Similar to a few games ago when the coaching staff told him to play with aggressiveness and swagger or sit toward the end.

Feels to me in games like this that we almost have too much talent and guys don’t know their roles. Gary Trent was awesome early in the game but then got disengaged from the offense until the end. Grayson is deferential to other players in a way that seems bizarre for a player of his talent and stature. The roles between Duval, Allen, and Trent seem really muddled. Pick and roll defense was really poor in the first half and cost us a number of easy baskets. Forcing Bagley to go right is a pretty predictable way of containing his ability to make plays in the Post on half court offense when defenders are in place and he is trying to create on his own. Still feels like a lot of individual play on offense which can work sometimes, but but not consistently if one or two of the guys aren’t on fire.

Anyhow, this team still has a really high ceiling but we may not have as much time as we would like to get it all together. Hope we do a lot of learning over the next few weeks!

CDu
02-03-2018, 05:10 PM
It's cute that y'all think K tells the media anything other than what they wanna hear.

I don't know why you think that. He has a long history of fighting with the media. He even quite harshly corrected a couple of guys in this post-game presser.

heyman25
02-03-2018, 05:11 PM
Feel free to prove my wrong, but Allen seems to really struggle in these "neutral" site games played in NBA arenas.
Grayson did not impress any NBA scouts today. Europe or China is his likely post Duke career.

kAzE
02-03-2018, 05:13 PM
Here's a video of Coach's post game comments: https://www.pscp.tv/w/1lDxLavDWdwKm

Pretty harsh critique of the team. This was probably our worst performance of the year.

DukieInBrasil
02-03-2018, 05:14 PM
Presser link I used:
https://t.co/kxY1eeEzGL

Can’t recall the last time I heard Coach this pissed.

My own observation was the team largely lacked passion. Carter finally got mad but it was too late. We need 40 min of all out passionate play and the will to do anything to get the ball. Perhaps we learn from this. I know Coach will his part. Those boys are gonna have 5 days of solid roasting.

I haven't seen this team play 40 minutes of inspired ball yet this season. Part of that is being Fr., part of that is inflated egoes, part of that is preparation. It baffles me that this team hasn't taken up that lesson yet, and continually comes out of the gate ok, goes kinda flat, gets down by 10+, and only then figures out that it needs to exert effort. Happened again today, and the effort was too little too late.
Grayson disappeared in this game, and was worse than ineffective. The erratic play from him this year has been the most confounding aspect of this team. I expect Fr. to have wild swings, but for the most part Bagley and Carter have been more consistent than Allen. Trent has also been erratic but within my expectations of Fr. play. Duval is perhaps the most erratic, both from game to game and within a game; i'm not sure i can recall a guy going from multiple unforced turnovers in a row to start the game (in multiple games) to just being unstoppable in the same game (multiple times).
One thing that has changed this year, and it happens every year lately, is the way games are called; at the beginning of the year the NCAA was all "freedom of movement" and Bagley was a big benificiary of that, but now it's all "whistle? what whistle? i ain't got no whistle" and Bagley hasn't managed to adjust. Several of his 6 turnovers today were due to lack of awareness that he wasn't going to be allowed to do what he wanted and that no foul was coming to save him. This has been a consistent thing in games recently.

Devilwin
02-03-2018, 05:14 PM
Maybe we thought there were no NBA scouts in attendance, and that's why we played like we did.

kAzE
02-03-2018, 05:15 PM
Grayson did not impress any NBA scouts today. Europe or China is his likely post Duke career.

Grayson's career arc right now is like the Benjamin Button of college basketball careers.

scottdude8
02-03-2018, 05:15 PM
I don't know why you think that. He has a long history of fighting with the media. He even quite harshly corrected a couple of guys in this post-game presser.

As someone who has been personally yelled at for upwards of 5 minutes in a K presser, I wholeheartedly second this, haha.

KandG
02-03-2018, 05:20 PM
I don't know why you think that. He has a long history of fighting with the media. He even quite harshly corrected a couple of guys in this post-game presser.

Yup, I've gotten the infamous K "evil eye" when I asked a question he didn't like. Might have only been a few seconds but it felt like an hour.

To be fair though, the observation by the reporter about Duke coming back when they started playing zone really was about as wrong as could be. K could have been nicer in correcting him, but the comment was horribly off base.

flyingdutchdevil
02-03-2018, 05:21 PM
Grayson's career arc right now is like the Benjamin Button of college basketball careers.

Maybe he wants to mimic Kyle Singler’s career path.

Channing
02-03-2018, 05:26 PM
Grayson's career arc right now is like the Benjamin Button of college basketball careers.

I have tried to think who has had a similar career arc as Grayson. Terrence Morris is the closest I can think of.

kshepinthehouse
02-03-2018, 05:28 PM
I have tried to think who has had a similar career arc as Grayson. Terrence Morris is the closest I can think of.

Great comparison and sadly I agree at this point. I’m an optimist though so I’m still holding out hope that he will have a magical run to end his senior season and cut down the nets to end his career just like he started it.

BlueandWhite
02-03-2018, 05:34 PM
He is passing up shots. Watch closely...he has had many opportunites wherein he's paused, thought about it and thrown the ball.

Your observation is correct — passed on good, makeable shots, multiple times. And not just this game.

But this isn’t the key concern re: this team. Duke currently lacks a player who will step up and be an on-court, vocal leader. That’s just my humble opinion. This group has only played together in official games for three months. Tons of talent, still learning to play as a unit, consistently on both ends for 40 minutes. I’m optimistic that out coaches will be able to get it done & go far this March - we’ll see. Go Duke!!

BlueandWhite
02-03-2018, 05:36 PM
Your observation is correct — passed on good, makeable shots, multiple times. And not just this game.

But this isn’t the key concern re: this team. Duke currently lacks a player who will step up and be an on-court, vocal leader. That’s just my humble opinion. This group has only played together in official games for three months. Tons of talent, still learning to play as a unit, consistently on both ends for 40 minutes. I’m optimistic that out coaches will be able to get it done & go far this March - we’ll see. Go Duke!!

Just to add — coaches will get it done re: practices, pre-game preparation & in- game coaching to get this team playing as well as anyone come March...and April.

GO DUKE!!

DukieInBrasil
02-03-2018, 05:36 PM
4 out of the past 6 games, Duke's offense has coughed up turnovers on 23+% of possessions, including today's dismal 26.4% turnover rate. That's more than a quarter of possessions today, haha! Obviously, we have to get back to protecting the ball better, or this team won't do much in the postseason. Now, if that means lowering the amount of postups we do because we keep turning the ball over on entry passes, so be it. You can't keep banging your head against the wall, right? But running fewer stagnant postups would also help. Make the postup the second or third action in a sequence of actions, and it will help. Move the post defender around before you post him up, and it will help.

Bagley was particularly atrocious in this area. Teams are more focused on not letting him move withe ball and he hasn't figured out how to overcome that.


I am having a hard time understanding why Duval seems virtually unstoppable when we are down near the end of the game, but not at other times. He seems to have another gear, but he only shifts into it when we are completely on the ropes. Then he instantaneously becomes the kind of guard that has often given our defense fits.
Is he capable of doing that earlier in the game? If so, why doesn't he? It's baffling. Other than the missed free throws, he seemed like the best player on the court in the last 3-4 minutes of the game, just like he did against Florida State.
I'd like to see that Duval show up a bit earlier in the game.

i've been saying the same thing, but you said it better. You speak my mind.


Definitely felt like the team didn’t respect their opponent and got caught up in the magnitude of playing in MSG. Maybe looking ahead to next Thursday,

Our offense is so predictable - one of the bigs remains stationary and calls for the ball, while the guards struggle to get it to him. Defenses can sag off and jump the passing lanes because they’re not worried about our guards attacking. Bagley also needs to improve on reacting to the double team, he pretty much just dribbles away from the basket and allows the defense to reset.


agreed on both counts


I would love to see a mass benching to start the UNC game. That would be perfect. “You’re so talented but you don’t have the heart to start against the biggest regular season game of the year.” Do it coach.

Something K has done before and i think it would be entirely appropriate. Bench Grayson too, he hasn't been a leader lately.


Nope, the team in general. But he said they weren't coachable today, and that their play was unacceptable and disgusting. Really out-of-character comments about his team.

But totally accurate.


The roles between Duval, Allen, and Trent seem really muddled. Pick and roll defense was really poor in the first half and cost us a number of easy baskets. Forcing Bagley to go right is a pretty predictable way of containing his ability to make plays in the Post on half court offense when defenders are in place and he is trying to create on his own. Still feels like a lot of individual play on offense which can work sometimes, but but not consistently if one or two of the guys aren’t on fire.


I think Duke should design offense in which Bagley only gets the ball for moves/shots where he doesn't have to dribble. Catch the ball and make a move to score, or pass it immediately. The ball spends too much time in Bagley's hands. He needs to play more like Antwan Jamison, and less like Kevin Durant.

Dukehky
02-03-2018, 05:40 PM
Your observation is correct — passed on good, makeable shots, multiple times. And not just this game.

But this isn’t the key concern re: this team. Duke currently lacks a player who will step up and be an on-court, vocal leader. That’s just my humble opinion. This group has only played together in official games for three months. Tons of talent, still learning to play as a unit, consistently on both ends for 40 minutes. I’m optimistic that out coaches will be able to get it done & go far this March - we’ll see. Go Duke!!

I actually disagree with this. This is the exact dude that Gary Trent is. I think that similar to Grayson's deferring on offense, Trent is deferring to Grayson in the leadership arena. Gary Trent's reputation out of high school and on the circuit is that he would rather fight you than lose (although, given that Trent looks like someone that could dole out some whoopins, maybe that's not saying much). I would like to see him take a more proactive role in this regard. Not all good from him today though, he was sloppy and weak with the ball. Although I don't think that was necessarily an effort thing. That is his weakness and they were allowing a lot of physical play on the perimeter. Those two things are going to lead to turnovers from him.

Trent was always a guy that his teammates listened to and respected in high school, at all star games, and in AAU. I don't know that there is any issue with the other freshman following Grayson, I doubt there is, but we've all said it before, leadership is a lot easier to follow when the leader is being productive. In only one game I can remember did both of them play poorly (UVA). So if Trent and Grayson are both serving that role, then it's pretty likely one is going to be having a good offensive game.

That's a lot of speculation, but it's just a thought, or several.

OZ
02-03-2018, 05:41 PM
Nope, the team in general. But he said they weren't coachable today, and that their play was unacceptable and disgusting. Really out-of-character comments about his team.

Did Coach K say anything with which you disagreed (other than the fact that he said them)?

BlueandWhite
02-03-2018, 05:41 PM
Totally agree. Was at the game and Duval was playing with a completely different level of energy and aggressiveness the last few minutes. Similar to a few games ago when the coaching staff told him to play with aggressiveness and swagger or sit toward the end.

Feels to me in games like this that we almost have too much talent and guys don’t know their roles. Gary Trent was awesome early in the game but then got disengaged from the offense until the end. Grayson is deferential to other players in a way that seems bizarre for a player of his talent and stature. The roles between Duval, Allen, and Trent seem really muddled. Pick and roll defense was really poor in the first half and cost us a number of easy baskets. Forcing Bagley to go right is a pretty predictable way of containing his ability to make plays in the Post on half court offense when defenders are in place and he is trying to create on his own. Still feels like a lot of individual play on offense which can work sometimes, but but not consistently if one or two of the guys aren’t on fire.

Anyhow, this team still has a really high ceiling but we may not have as much time as we would like to get it all together. Hope we do a lot of learning over the next few weeks!

Grayson Allen needs to be the on-court leader of this team, from here on out. Period, end of story. He also needs to shoot a whole lot more. Hope coaches can help him be that leader & get things sorted out in other areas.

BlueandWhite
02-03-2018, 05:45 PM
I actually disagree with this. This is the exact dude that Gary Trent is. I think that similar to Grayson's deferring on offense, Trent is deferring to Grayson in the leadership arena. Gary Trent's reputation out of high school and on the circuit is that he would rather fight you than lose (although, given that Trent looks like someone that could dole out some whoopins, maybe that's not saying much). I would like to see him take a more proactive role in this regard. Not all good from him today though, he was sloppy and weak with the ball. Although I don't think that was necessarily an effort thing. That is his weakness and they were allowing a lot of physical play on the perimeter. Those two things are going to lead to turnovers from him.

Trent was always a guy that his teammates listened to and respected in high school, at all star games, and in AAU. I don't know that there is any issue with the other freshman following Grayson, I doubt there is, but we've all said it before, leadership is a lot easier to follow when the leader is being productive. In only one game I can remember did both of them play poorly (UVA). So if Trent and Grayson are both serving that role, then it's pretty likely one is going to be having a good offensive game.

That's a lot of speculation, but it's just a thought, or several.

Thanks for your thoughtful and informed post. Maybe it’s just me pulling for Grayson to pull out of his funk ASAP. UNC game would be a great time. Go Duke!

richardjackson199
02-03-2018, 05:46 PM
Jeff Borzello quote sums it up:

"the Blue Devils are not going to be able to win six games in a row against quality competition if they continue to struggle defensively -- not only because it keeps lesser teams in the game, but because it begins to put too much pressure on their offense.

And on Saturday, we saw what happens when the offense isn’t there to bail out Duke’s defense."

But time to get positive and start a nice run with a win over the cheats in cheatville. Borzello also rightly says, "Duke still has arguably the highest ceiling of any team in the country due to its talent"

Let's go Duke and let's realize that potential!

http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/120864/duke-loses-to-st-johns-after-disgusting-performance

Dukehky
02-03-2018, 05:46 PM
Grayson Allen needs to be the on-court leader of this team, from here on out. Period, end of story. He also needs to shoot a whole lot more. Hope coaches can help him be that leader & get things sorted out in other areas.

See above post.

I don't think Grayson has been a bad leader. We were all lauding him after ND, but I think Trent has a lot to offer in this area. The one other thing I will add is that simply being older doesn't necessarily make you a better leader than someone else, and I feel like just because Grayson is the lone senior, that he is having all of that heaped upon him. K said at the beginning of the year that someone else would need to step up in that regard, and it just hasn't been a non-freshman. We're at the point where I think a freshman can definitely help fill whatever void may be there.

I do agree he has to hunt his shot more. He's a better player that way. Bagley and Carter will get their opportunities both through plays run for them, but also in offensive rebounding if Grayson takes more shots.

kmspeaks
02-03-2018, 05:53 PM
Duke gets all the calls, right?

https://twitter.com/henman11/status/959837837351845888

There's that, the missed goaltending by Bagley, allowing post defenders to lay all over guys posting up and then call an offensive foul when the big man finally gets fed up and tries to actually hold him off, etc, etc. College basketball referees, weathermen, and United States Congressmen - all terrible at their jobs yet they get to keep them for a long long time.

Disclaimer: this post is not meant to in any way, shape, or form suggest that the referees share any responsibility for the result of this game. I don't believe referees are biased for or against certain teams, I just think they're not very good.

CDu
02-03-2018, 05:53 PM
Did Coach K say anything with which you disagreed (other than the fact that he said them)?

Whether or not I agree is irrelevant (and for the record I don't have an opinion - I wasn't in the huddles). If a poster on DBR said what Coach K said, they'd be blasted for it. It's unbecoming of a leader to do that. And Coach K knows that, which is why he almost never does it.

Brockt10
02-03-2018, 05:54 PM
Tons of solid analysis in thread so I'll submit a question that I've noticed in recent games. Is it just me or is Bagley horrible when he gets doubled more than 5 feet away from the basket?

kshepinthehouse
02-03-2018, 05:55 PM
Tons of solid analysis in thread so I'll submit a question that I've noticed in recent games. Is it just me or is Bagley horrible when he gets doubled more than 5 feet away from the basket?

Aren’t most players?

Dukehky
02-03-2018, 05:57 PM
Tons of solid analysis in thread so I'll submit a question that I've noticed in recent games. Is it just me or is Bagley horrible when he gets doubled more than 5 feet away from the basket?

He looks to me to not be playing as hard as he was earlier in the year.

Totally normal for an 18 year old to play harder when he's playing well though. Teams are adapting and making life tougher on him recently. If is effort is dependent upon him scoring 18 a half, he's gotta get over that crap right now though.

sagegrouse
02-03-2018, 05:58 PM
Great comparison and sadly I agree at this point. I’m an optimist though so I’m still holding out hope that he will have a magical run to end his senior season and cut down the nets to end his career just like he started it.

Some, but by no means all, of Grayson's issues are the circumstances of the Duke offense. We have a point guard who likes to drive; the two big guys are, understandably, focal points of the offense; and there is another good shooter on the wing. Uh, and there is only one ball.

Brockt10
02-03-2018, 06:02 PM
Aren’t most players?

Not necessarily. One strength that nba scouts look for is the ability of big men to find the open man when double teamed. Think Jokic in nba currently. Bagley seems to prematurely pick up his dribble and frantically look for someone to drop it off too.

I will say that earlier in the year he was great at finding Carter when doubled in the post.

CDu
02-03-2018, 06:05 PM
Not necessarily. One strength that nba scouts look for is the ability of big men to find the open man when double teamed. Think Jokic in nba currently. Bagley seems to prematurely pick up his dribble and frantically look for someone to drop it off too.

I will say that earlier in the year he was great at finding Carter when doubled in the post.

Teams have definitely adapted to play him more aggressively when he gets the ball. He seems to be trying to figure it out. Worth noting though that he still had 19 points on 10 FGA in a bad game for him. And he's just 2 games removed from scoring 30 against one of the best defensive teams of the past 20 years. So while he has shown some signs of mortality, he's still ridiculously good.

Brockt10
02-03-2018, 06:08 PM
Teams have definitely adapted to play him more aggressively when he gets the ball. He seems to be trying to figure it out. Worth noting though that he still had 19 points on 10 FGA in a bad game for him. And he's just 2 games removed from scoring 30 against one of the best defensive teams of the past 20 years. So while he has shown some signs of mortality, he's still ridiculously good.

Completely agree that he is ridiculously good. He has the quickest second jump I have ever seen. I see him as 2nd on the list of all time Duke "wow" freshman...I have a deep appreciation for Kyries skill.

drummerdevil
02-03-2018, 06:09 PM
“Cameron North”
While we’re pointing fingers at everyone and everything, I’d like to take a moment and point some fingers at the fans. Guys, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t we have more duke fans there than Cameron seats? Imagine how loud the “lets go duke” cheer could have been; how demoralizing for St. John’s it would have been at their home court. Some of us (I was the kid in the back of 226 screaming my head off) tried to get the fans involved, but they only responded during our run, which might have happened earlier if we’d gotten into it.

It’s called Cameron north for a reason, guys. Make it our home away from home. Let’s make it feel like a home game next time.

Emerrick
02-03-2018, 06:15 PM
Some, but by no means all, of Grayson's issues are the circumstances of the Duke offense. We have a point guard who likes to drive; the two big guys are, understandably, focal points of the offense; and there is another good shooter on the wing. Uh, and there is only one ball.

I agree completely. The problem (as odd as it sounds) is we do have a load of talent and everyone can score on their own and often at will. Wasn’t Okafor a great passer? If there’s one criticism, and it’s only slight because it’s just a casual observation, is that our bigs aren’t great passers. I suspect I’m pretty off with this comment but it seems as soon as someone gets the ball they look to score instead of looking for the best scoring option. Perhaps that’s by design. But I would like to see more in/out action with the bigs and Grayson or Duval and Grayson. Grayson’s got to score for us to win. I love how Duval can get to the basket with his drives (like a previous post, I’m baffled why he doesn’t do it all game long). But if Grayson can hit a 3, is that somehow better? Or is it we just suck at D. Ok... I’m waffling... I give up trying to understand this team.

DST Fan
02-03-2018, 06:15 PM
Teams have definitely adapted to play him more aggressively when he gets the ball. He seems to be trying to figure it out. Worth noting though that he still had 19 points on 10 FGA in a bad game for him. And he's just 2 games removed from scoring 30 against one of the best defensive teams of the past 20 years. So while he has shown some signs of mortality, he's still ridiculously good.

Also, as talented as Marvin is, he basically does not use his right hand. Even when driving to his right around the basket, he generally shoots with his left hand. Presumably, every opposing team's scouting report has been emphasizing this point for at least the last month.

duke2x
02-03-2018, 06:22 PM
“Cameron North”
While we’re pointing fingers at everyone and everything, I’d like to take a moment and point some fingers at the fans. Guys, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t we have more duke fans there than Cameron seats? Imagine how loud the “lets go duke” cheer could have been; how demoralizing for St. John’s it would have been at their home court. Some of us (I was the kid in the back of 226 screaming my head off) tried to get the fans involved, but they only responded during our run, which might have happened earlier if we’d gotten into it.

It’s called Cameron north for a reason, guys. Make it our home away from home. Let’s make it feel like a home game next time.

I thought Cameron Indoor North was the Meadowlands (RIP). We were almost undefeated in that building but have a slightly more pedestrian home court advantage at MSG. Brooklyn has too small of a sample size to compare. I turned in my tickets to Duke because I couldn't make the trip up to NYC, but I guess I'm not that upset now.

Yes, this is a bad loss, but it's equivalent to BC/Wake/GT in every computer poll I see. This might be the wake-up call we needed for Thursday night with some spirited practices on Mon, Tues, and Wed.

OZ
02-03-2018, 06:25 PM
Whether or not I agree is irrelevant (and for the record I don't have an opinion - I wasn't in the huddles). If a poster on DBR said what Coach K said, they'd be blasted for it. It's unbecoming of a leader to do that. And Coach K knows that, which is why he almost never does it.

That is your opinion. IMO, there are times when "leaders" try and do different things to motivate their team... to get their attention... like lock them out of their dressing room. Perhaps, he thought it was needed. We also can get "blasted" here for questioning Coach K. I've trusted his judgment with his team for years. I'm going to trust that he is totally aware of what he is doing now; and, perhaps thought it to be necessary.

MartyClark
02-03-2018, 06:26 PM
“Cameron North”
While we’re pointing fingers at everyone and everything, I’d like to take a moment and point some fingers at the fans. Guys, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t we have more duke fans there than Cameron seats? Imagine how loud the “lets go duke” cheer could have been; how demoralizing for St. John’s it would have been at their home court. Some of us (I was the kid in the back of 226 screaming my head off) tried to get the fans involved, but they only responded during our run, which might have happened earlier if we’d gotten into it.

It’s called Cameron north for a reason, guys. Make it our home away from home. Let’s make it feel like a home game next time.

Respectfully disagree. I've been to a couple of Duke games at MSG and agree the Duke fans can neutralize the alleged home court advantage of a team like St. John.

This loss falls on K and the players, I think primarily K. All sorts of Duke fan noise at the game can't make up for sloppy offense and defensive play by Duke.

Go Duke. Beat the UNCheaters onThursday.

duke96
02-03-2018, 06:26 PM
“Cameron North”
While we’re pointing fingers at everyone and everything, I’d like to take a moment and point some fingers at the fans. Guys, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t we have more duke fans there than Cameron seats? Imagine how loud the “lets go duke” cheer could have been; how demoralizing for St. John’s it would have been at their home court. Some of us (I was the kid in the back of 226 screaming my head off) tried to get the fans involved, but they only responded during our run, which might have happened earlier if we’d gotten into it.

It’s called Cameron north for a reason, guys. Make it our home away from home. Let’s make it feel like a home game next time.

Hard to argue with based on what I saw at the game. Good point.

drummerdevil
02-03-2018, 06:35 PM
Respectfully disagree. I've been to a couple of Duke games at MSG and agree the Duke fans can neutralize the alleged home court advantage of a team like St. John.

This loss falls on K and the players, I think primarily K. All sorts of Duke fan noise at the game can't make up for sloppy offense and defensive play by Duke.

Go Duke. Beat the UNCheaters onThursday.

I’m just trying to be the one guy on the board who’s not fully criticizing everyone else. You can’t deny we could have done more.

CDu
02-03-2018, 06:39 PM
That is your opinion. IMO, there are times when "leaders" try and do different things to motivate their team... to get their attention... like lock them out of their dressing room. Perhaps, he thought it was needed. We also can get "blasted" here for questioning Coach K. I've trusted his judgment with his team for years. I'm going to trust that he is totally aware of what he is doing now; and, perhaps thought it to be necessary.

And I agree. Which was why I said he must be really pissed at the team to have gone a route that he has so rarely gone before. I wasn’t questioning Coach K (though he is not infallible; he makes mistakes too).

MrPoon
02-03-2018, 06:41 PM
Heard the ESPN clip of the presser and I liked it. I don’t like coaches who regularly point to players instead of the program/coaching. But that is why this stood out. The faces, passion, communication, etc wasn’t there tonight. It kind of reminds me of the Cleveland Cavs. They think they are going to win the East so the effort isn’t there to put up with the regular season. This game had that feel. Of course that is a massive mistake for this team who really hasn’t accomplished anything...yet.

Practice will be fun this week.

I wonder if a few of the freshman are hitting a bit of a wall from the long mins. Not trying to start a bench/deep rotation debate, but wondering why a guy like Bagley would be so...unBagley like for effort. I still think GA has something to do with it, what ever is holding him back. His diving on the floor type effort plays have offset poor shooting for games this year, not tonight. No one wanted to dive for a loose ball, hustle for the extra play, take the extra step to the pass, step into a charge, just wasn’t there.

Get ‘em K. Hope UNC gets the full brunt of this message.

FerryFor50
02-03-2018, 07:00 PM
Duke was up by 7 at the half with a sub-optimal effort. Then, SJU couldn’t miss in the 2nd while Duke went into a scoring drought. Turnovers made that hole deeper.

A lot of whistles in that half, too. Both teams had over 10 fouls and that messed with the game flow.

Despite all that, Carter, Duval and Trent keyed a late run to get the lead back. Then the wheels fell off a bit with a crazy contested 3 by Bootsy... er, Shamorie Ponds and missed FTs kind of killed any chance for a win.

Interestingly, Duke looked to Grayson Allen on the last few possessions to hit a 3 to bail them out, despite the fact that Gary Trent was the hot hand.

Regardless, that game was still winnable, despite the misxues. Stinks that they lost to SJU, but the Johnnies just nearly beat Xavier the game prior. Perhaps they’re on an upswing and Duke underestimated them.

Skydog
02-03-2018, 07:19 PM
(warning: long post)

There were so many unpleasant things about todays game -

Weird reffing: When I saw the refs out of bounds call on Bagley at the beginning of the game I was stunned. I rewound my DVR to make sure the call was as bad as it looked - it was. Also the refs called the game very differently than we are used to - swallowed their whistles when driving players got hit but hypervigilant on whistling any push off in the paint.

Lack of effort: Our lack of effort in the game is completely indefensible. To make mistakes and lose is one thing, but to not play hard is something completely different. It doesn't matter if you are a freshman or a senior you can still hustle for loose balls. Playing hard all the time is a major part of the Duke identity. Or at least it used to be. Not acceptable.

Repeating the same mistakes over and over, not learning from previous games: I firmly believe we beat both VA and St Johns (and sport a gaudy 21-2 record) if not for repeated sloppy turnovers to start out the game. Poorly delivered and/or forced and/or 100% telegraphed passes are killing us. Unforced turnovers at the beginning of the VA game put us in a deep hole and we end up losing by 2. Against St. Johns we would have easily been up by 20 at the half if we didn't make the exact same mistakes again. What happened to "lesson learned?" Not acceptable.

Duval: Sorry guys, I know discussing him is polarizing but I think it's fair to discuss his game without being seen as a "hater." First I acknowledge that he often finishes games strong, sometimes amazingly so. But the entire game matters and sometimes we wouldn't need end-game heroics if we took better care of the ball earlier. Over the last three games he has 13 assists and 11 turnovers for a 1.2 a/t ratio. Not good. Over our 4 losses he has 21 assists and 19 turnovers, an even worse 1.1 a/t ratio. The guy is talented as hell but his turnovers are killing his personal offensive efficiency and really hurting the teams overall offensive efficiency. His OE rating of 107 is by far the worst of our regular players; the rest of the starters are all in the 122-130 range. In conference play Duval's OE drops to 103, a full 14 points lower than the team average of 117. Not acceptable. Early in the season (against admittedly weaker competition) he really took care of the ball -- he needs to get back to it. Against St. Johns his OE was 88, 2nd worst on the team. Which brings us to -

Grayson Allen: Allen's line against a currently 90th ranked St. Johns - 40 min, 7pts, 14%fg (1 of 7), 67%ft (4 of 6), 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 turnovers, 0 steals, 3 fouls adding up to an OE of 76. That is just flat out awful. Add in that he has is a senior, a captain and one of the most talented players in the nation. And as Grayson goes so does the team. Offensive stats each of our 4 losses: points -14, 8, 5, 7 and OE - 86, 101, 70, and today 76. Some would argue that he isn't scoring in those games because he is being a facilitator but those poor OE numbers show that he isn't doing that task well either (in those games). The fact is that he is wildly inconsistent since conference play began. Personally I'm 90% sure that Grayson's disappearing games (and this was a particularly bad one) are due to a lack of confidence. When he is confident he comes off picks faster, looks for and takes his shot more, and finishes at the rim. A confident Grayson is amazing - Michigan State anyone? But when he isn't confident you can see it in his style of play - he slows down his runs, doesn't come off picks fast enough to get open, passes up open looks when he does get them, and misses shots close to the rim that he normally finishes. Today even one of his free throws was way off! I do think taking him out for a few minutes just to gather his wits would help him -I don't understand playing him 40 minutes when he is playing like he did today.

Carter' defense: As someone else said Carter "was a disaster on pick and roll defense for 30 minutes today." In the first half he repeatedly stepped up to double guard the ball handler and let the roller go free for a layup. The scary thing was that he made the mistake over and over and appeared unaware that it was a problem. This is on him and the coaching staff. This is basic PnR defense. Wtf?

Coaching staff: Team seemed poorly prepared both tactically and mentally. Our defense looked as bad as it ever has. And I just don't agree with the in game management. Pull the starters, bring on fresh subs, pull Carter out and tell him to drop in the PnR, do something! Don't just leave players on the floor when they aren't hustling and making lazy passes and seem mentally out of it. I just believe we needed fresh mental energy from the bench.

Ok, I'm typed out. Very disappointing game. Not just because we lost, but mainly because of the way we lost.

ipatent
02-03-2018, 07:40 PM
Lack of effort: Our lack of effort in the game is completely indefensible. To make mistakes and lose is one thing, but to not play hard is something completely different. It doesn't matter if you are a freshman or a senior you can still hustle for loose balls. Playing hard all the time is a major part of the Duke identity. Or at least it used to be. Not acceptable.

I saw plenty of effort on some plays, bodies on the floor over loose balls and so forth. There were also a number of lazy passes on offense and poor body language at times. They were having problems getting post position and feeding the post.

I'm also not sure that their inability to guard off of ball screens is fully attributable to lack of effort; there is a learning curve and some inherent matchup problems with two bigs on the floor.

CajunDevil
02-03-2018, 07:42 PM
What Skydog said... all of it! Well said!

DukieInBrasil
02-03-2018, 07:43 PM
(warning: long post)

There were so many unpleasant things about todays game -
... Not just because we lost, but mainly because of the way we lost.

i agree with everything you wrote. Playing Grayson the full 40 minutes while playing so poorly reinforces the idea that you can play poorly and not get benched. Which leads to the contrary: that no matter how well you play you might not even get in the game. I also thought K did a really poor job with in-game personnel management. Consecutive horsesh!t turnovers by Duval earned him no trip to the bench. Consistently bad PnR defense from Carter did not earn him some 1 on 1 time withe coaches on the bench. Repeatedly turning the ball over by being unaware of the defense by Bagley did not earn him a little conference time to address the problem.
Seems like a rather confusing message: play at full intensity all the time! but conserve your energy b/c you're gonna play the whole game.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-03-2018, 07:44 PM
(warning: long post)

There were so many unpleasant things about todays game -

Weird reffing: When I saw the refs out of bounds call on Bagley at the beginning of the game I was stunned. I rewound my DVR to make sure the call was as bad as it looked - it was. Also the refs called the game very differently than we are used to - swallowed their whistles when driving players got hit but hypervigilant on whistling any push off in the paint.

Lack of effort: Our lack of effort in the game is completely indefensible. To make mistakes and lose is one thing, but to not play hard is something completely different. It doesn't matter if you are a freshman or a senior you can still hustle for loose balls. Playing hard all the time is a major part of the Duke identity. Or at least it used to be. Not acceptable.

Repeating the same mistakes over and over, not learning from previous games: I firmly believe we beat both VA and St Johns (and sport a gaudy 21-2 record) if not for repeated sloppy turnovers to start out the game. Poorly delivered and/or forced and/or 100% telegraphed passes are killing us. Unforced turnovers at the beginning of the VA game put us in a deep hole and we end up losing by 2. Against St. Johns we would have easily been up by 20 at the half if we didn't make the exact same mistakes again. What happened to "lesson learned?" Not acceptable.

Duval: Sorry guys, I know discussing him is polarizing but I think it's fair to discuss his game without being seen as a "hater." First I acknowledge that he often finishes games strong, sometimes amazingly so. But the entire game matters and sometimes we wouldn't need end-game heroics if we took better care of the ball earlier. Over the last three games he has 13 assists and 11 turnovers for a 1.2 a/t ratio. Not good. Over our 4 losses he has 21 assists and 19 turnovers, an even worse 1.1 a/t ratio. The guy is talented as hell but his turnovers are killing his personal offensive efficiency and really hurting the teams overall offensive efficiency. His OE rating of 107 is by far the worst of our regular players; the rest of the starters are all in the 122-130 range. In conference play Duval's OE drops to 103, a full 14 points lower than the team average of 117. Not acceptable. Early in the season (against admittedly weaker competition) he really took care of the ball -- he needs to get back to it. Against St. Johns his OE was 88, 2nd worst on the team. Which brings us to -

Grayson Allen: Allen's line against a currently 90th ranked St. Johns - 40 min, 7pts, 14%fg (1 of 7), 67%ft (4 of 6), 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 turnovers, 0 steals, 3 fouls adding up to an OE of 76. That is just flat out awful. Add in that he has is a senior, a captain and one of the most talented players in the nation. And as Grayson goes so does the team. Offensive stats each of our 4 losses: points -14, 8, 5, 7 and OE - 86, 101, 70, and today 76. Some would argue that he isn't scoring in those games because he is being a facilitator but those poor OE numbers show that he isn't doing that task well either (in those games). The fact is that he is wildly inconsistent since conference play began. Personally I'm 90% sure that Grayson's disappearing games (and this was a particularly bad one) are due to a lack of confidence. When he is confident he comes off picks faster, looks for and takes his shot more, and finishes at the rim. A confident Grayson is amazing - Michigan State anyone? But when he isn't confident you can see it in his style of play - he slows down his runs, doesn't come off picks fast enough to get open, passes up open looks when he does get them, and misses shots close to the rim that he normally finishes. Today even one of his free throws was way off! I do think taking him out for a few minutes just to gather his wits would help him -I don't understand playing him 40 minutes when he is playing like he did today.

Carter' defense: As someone else said Carter "was a disaster on pick and roll defense for 30 minutes today." In the first half he repeatedly stepped up to double guard the ball handler and let the roller go free for a layup. The scary thing was that he made the mistake over and over and appeared unaware that it was a problem. This is on him and the coaching staff. This is basic PnR defense. Wtf?

Coaching staff: Team seemed poorly prepared both tactically and mentally. Our defense looked as bad as it ever has. And I just don't agree with the in game management. Pull the starters, bring on fresh subs, pull Carter out and tell him to drop in the PnR, do something! Don't just leave players on the floor when they aren't hustling and making lazy passes and seem mentally out of it. I just believe we needed fresh mental energy from the bench.

Ok, I'm typed out. Very disappointing game. Not just because we lost, but mainly because of the way we lost.

This is dang good analysis without whining or being negative about our players. Thanks for this.

bdbrown19
02-03-2018, 08:05 PM
What a disappointing loss. Looking on the bright side, this doesn't affect our seeding in the ACC tourny. Still really tough to swallow. It almost feels like we lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament.

UrinalCake
02-03-2018, 08:10 PM
Stinks that they lost to SJU, but the Johnnies just nearly beat Xavier the game prior. Perhaps they’re on an upswing and Duke underestimated them.

I do think that SJU is better than their record indicates. As many pointed out before the game, they have lost some close games to some really good teams. They were due to finally break through.

jv001
02-03-2018, 08:38 PM
That is a factor. He rarely touched the ball unless he was initiating the offense. He had four FG attempts before the three late 3PT attempts.

I agree with your take on Grayson's offense. He seems to be the 4th or 5th option on offense. It looks like as captain he wants to get others involved in the first half and doesn't look for his offense.

Duke is losing to teams they have no reason to lose against. BC, State and St. Johns. Then there are close wins against teams we should have put away early. To me there lies the problem. We should be putting these teams away early but we are not. I think one problem is Tre turning the ball over too many times early in the game. Then in the 2nd half he plays like the player we know he can be. Today he brought us back and we should have won the game late but we fell short.

Two things stick out like a sore thumb in todays game: 10 assists-18 turnovers. Then throw in the 16 offensive rebounds we gave up and it's hard to overcome those things.

Two players stood out today for good play. Wendell and Bolden. Both guys played hard on offense and defense. After watching the game I recorded, it was apparent that several players stood around too much on defense. There was not much reaction when the ball went up to the basket and little help on defense. Tre and Gary went for the steal and got caught out of position on defense on some plays.

Did Duke get caught looking ahead to the Cheat game? I hope that was the case because if it wasn't then something else is the problem. Something I hope that can be fixed quickly. Let's be the team that jumps on teams early and that makes them feel bad about themselves and not one that feels they can upset the higher ranked team.

GoDuke!

rsvman
02-03-2018, 08:57 PM
I thought Bolden played quite well when he was in. I wonder if he is conditioned enough to play a few more minutes? His defense positioning was generally good, he rebounded better than he usually does, and he blocked a couple of shots. Maybe going forward Carter or Bagley could get some rest and Bolden could get a few more minutes. On the offensive side we lose some, but on defense he might even be a slight step up.

jv001
02-03-2018, 09:01 PM
Thanks for the link. One interesting side note: a questioner seemed to be trying to probe about Grayson's shots, possibly whether he was shooting enough (my speculation), but K shot it down by saying he is fine with any player taking good shots as long as they're open. Didn't seem interested in focusing on any one player's role in general given the overall team underachievement in this game.

Also, K was right to correct the reporter who wrongly assumed the team started doing well once they switched to zone. As I noted upthread, St. John's destroyed the zone. (I suspect one of the reasons Duke floundered for an extended period in the 2nd half was that they were floored that the zone wasn't slowing St. John's down at all). As K noted, it wasn't until they trapped the ball screen that they finally started containing St. John's attack.

Then why didn't Coach K use the trap sooner? GoDuke!

dukelifer
02-03-2018, 09:03 PM
I do think that SJU is better than their record indicates. As many pointed out before the game, they have lost some close games to some really good teams. They were due to finally break through.

Ponds is a player - he torched Nova for 37 in a 7 point loss and 31 against Xavier in a 5 point loss. That kid dominated Duke today. Duke gave St John’s confidence by not coming out strong in the second half and the kid carried them. It happens. We will see if this Duke team finally understands that they have to play like they did in the last stretch in the final 4 minutes of the first half and the beginning of the second. And they need to hit throws in crunch time. Maybe this is fixable as this is really about focus and playing with urgency.

Wander
02-03-2018, 09:06 PM
I do think that SJU is better than their record indicates. As many pointed out before the game, they have lost some close games to some really good teams. They were due to finally break through.

They're definitely better than that 0-11 conference record indicates.... but still pretty bad.

Overall, it's probably about the equivalent of Kansas losing at home to Oklahoma State today.

CameronDuke
02-03-2018, 09:09 PM
I remember last Saturday after the loss to Virginia at Cameron Indoor Stadium, Coach K made a comment to the effect of Duke lost a hard fought game but it isn't time to scrap all that Duke is doing and "The world doesn't have to change completely here." I agreed with that sentiment after the loss to Virginia. After the loss today at St. John's, I start to wonder about it. I don't think the world has to change, but perhaps a different combination of players and roles for those players needs to be tested some? Is O'Connell still sick? I don't remember O'Connell playing at all today. Could Bolden, O'Connell, DeLaurier, and White get more minutes? What about Goldwire? Would he honestly be that worse of an option than Duval or Allen for 5-10 minutes per game? I don't think the the world has to change necessarily but I wouldn't be shocked if Duke started different players at UNC Thursday. At least send a message to the team and current starters that the effort, level of execution, and lack of defensive intensity displayed today at St. John's is unacceptable.

Go Duke!

ipatent
02-03-2018, 09:15 PM
I was concerned at halftime that the game would tighten up because Duke seemed to be struggling against the SJU defense in the first half except for Trent's three point shooting. The eyeball test told me it could turn into a real challenge if the threes stopped falling.

jv001
02-03-2018, 09:29 PM
I remember last Saturday after the loss to Virginia at Cameron Indoor Stadium, Coach K made a comment to the effect of Duke lost a hard fought game but it isn't time to scrap all that Duke is doing and "The world doesn't have to change completely here." I agreed with that sentiment after the loss to Virginia. After the loss today at St. John's, I start to wonder about it. I don't think the world has to change, but perhaps a different combination of players and roles for those players needs to be tested some? Is O'Connell still sick? I don't remember O'Connell playing at all today. Could Bolden, O'Connell, DeLaurier, and White get more minutes? What about Goldwire? Would he honestly be that worse of an option than Duval or Allen for 5-10 minutes per game? I don't think the the world has to change necessarily but I wouldn't be shocked if Duke started different players at UNC Thursday. At least send a message to the team and current starters that the effort, level of execution, and lack of defensive intensity displayed today at St. John's is unacceptable.

Go Duke!

I don't know if it's the injury or what, but Javin is playing really uninspired basketball right now. He's a fouling machine. Lot's of DBR folks thought he would be the 6th man with 20-25 minutes ppg. It looks like Bolden, O'Connell and maybe White are the most effective players off the bench. GoDuke!

UrinalCake
02-03-2018, 09:37 PM
Two things stick out like a sore thumb in todays game: 10 assists-18 turnovers. Then throw in the 16 offensive rebounds we gave up and it's hard to overcome those things.

Early in the season we were killing teams on the offensive boards and holding our own on the defensive boards, but that has all changed in recent weeks. BC was the first game that we were outrebounded, and I believe NC State was the second. Pretty easy pattern to figure out. Today the rebounds were about even. Our offensive rebounding is no longer a weapon, and our defensive rebounding which was only okay to begin with is now almost a liability. I'm sure some of the advanced stats gurus can provide numbers, but my eye test tells me we're not as committed on the boards. Either that or opponents are crashing hard because they know that's supposed to be one of our strengths.

Rebounding combined with turnovers and free throw shooting are pretty much the story of this game and the UVA loss. Our defense was bad but honestly I'm not expecting that to change a whole lot. We can make incremental improvements and show more consistent effort, but we're not going to suddenly become a defensive juggernaut. We'll have to win games like this 85-75.

UrinalCake
02-03-2018, 09:39 PM
Also with regards to Duval, he did play much better in the second half but mostly it was because he was scoring one on one. He wasn't really running the team or setting up his teammates any better. I'm glad he stopped turning it over, but I think our impression of his play is getting a little skewed.

KandG
02-03-2018, 09:39 PM
Then why didn't Coach K use the trap sooner? GoDuke!

Trapping isn't a viable strategy for huge chunks of the game, as thin as we are, and it puts a lot of pressure on the bigs. Also, don't think K anticipated our zone would get cut open as much as it did. But I wouldn't mind seeing traps mixed in with our man coverage in the future -- in general, we seem more engaged on D when we're applying pressure high.

Bottom line is our base pick and roll D has to get better...St. John's kept finding an open roller zooming toward the rim (or an open shooter on the weak side) with one or two passes with barely a defender nearby for most of the first 30 minutes.

UrinalCake
02-03-2018, 09:40 PM
Trapping isn't a viable strategy for huge chunks of the game, as thin as we are, and it puts a lot of pressure on the bigs.

We played a trapping zone against MSU for the entire game, and that was without Bagley. It was hugely successful, though to be fair MSU doesn't have a great point guard and they have been turnover-prone all season. I'm still surprised we haven't used this more.

jv001
02-03-2018, 09:45 PM
Early in the season we were killing teams on the offensive boards and holding our own on the defensive boards, but that has all changed in recent weeks. BC was the first game that we were outrebounded, and I believe NC State was the second. Pretty easy pattern to figure out. Today the rebounds were about even. Our offensive rebounding is no longer a weapon, and our defensive rebounding which was only okay to begin with is now almost a liability. I'm sure some of the advanced stats gurus can provide numbers, but my eye test tells me we're not as committed on the boards. Either that or opponents are crashing hard because they know that's supposed to be one of our strengths.

Rebounding combined with turnovers and free throw shooting are pretty much the story of this game and the UVA loss. Our defense was bad but honestly I'm not expecting that to change a whole lot. We can make incremental improvements and show more consistent effort, but we're not going to suddenly become a defensive juggernaut. We'll have to win games like this 85-75.

Two of those things I think we can improve on: rebounding and turnovers. Defensive rebounding can be improved with better boxing out and getting our guards into the battle. Like Trent's game. Our guards must take care of the ball better. Trevon with better decision making and not force feeding our bigs when nothing is there.


Free throw shooting is another matter. It seems that Carter and Marvin will be up and down with more ups than downs. But I'm worried about Tre because he has the ball more and his shot looks worse than Wendell's or Marvin's. Gary and Grayson will be ok.
GoDuke!

CDu
02-03-2018, 09:48 PM
We played a trapping zone against MSU for the entire game, and that was without Bagley. It was hugely successful, though to be fair MSU doesn't have a great point guard and they have been turnover-prone all season. I'm still surprised we haven't used this more.

He was talking about trapping in man when bigs set high ball screens. Not the same as running a zone with traps.

Reilly
02-03-2018, 09:48 PM
I have tried to think who has had a similar career arc as Grayson. Terrence Morris is the closest I can think of.

Ricky Price?

Greg Paulus (esp. if you start w/ the h.s. hype)?

Reilly
02-03-2018, 09:52 PM
1990 UNLV lost to UC Santa Barbara at the end of the year - 78-70. So naw... Too easy.

? Per SRS, in 1990, UNLV ended up #3 and UCSB ended up #32 in the country: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/1990-ratings.html

Entering today, Duke is #3 this year and SJU is #73: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2018-ratings.html

jv001
02-03-2018, 09:52 PM
Ricky Price?

Greg Paulus (esp. if you start w/ the h.s. hype)?

Ricky and Greg didn't get 40 minutes per game either. Coach K must think Grayson is doing something right. GoDuke!

Ian
02-03-2018, 09:57 PM
Also with regards to Duval, he did play much better in the second half but mostly it was because he was scoring one on one. He wasn't really running the team or setting up his teammates any better. I'm glad he stopped turning it over, but I think our impression of his play is getting a little skewed.

Duval is not good at running a half court offense. He is great in the open court, but in the half court we are better with Grayson running point.

Ian
02-03-2018, 10:00 PM
Two of those things I think we can improve on: rebounding and turnovers. Defensive rebounding can be improved with better boxing out and getting our guards into the battle. Like Trent's game. Our guards must take care of the ball better. Trevon with better decision making and not force feeding our bigs when nothing is there.


Free throw shooting is another matter. It seems that Carter and Marvin will be up and down with more ups than downs. But I'm worried about Tre because he has the ball more and his shot looks worse than Wendell's or Marvin's. Gary and Grayson will be ok.
GoDuke!

Historically team turnover rates do not improve much during the season. It's one of those you are what the numbers say you are stats, like FT-shooting.

ipatent
02-03-2018, 10:01 PM
Ricky Price?

Greg Paulus (esp. if you start w/ the h.s. hype)?

Jeff Capel?

kshepinthehouse
02-03-2018, 10:03 PM
I thought a key momentum swing was when we had cut the score close, may have even been tied when Bagley took a contested 3 from the top of the key. I really thought we could have gotten a better look and who knows what might have happened if we would have scored on that possession

moonpie23
02-03-2018, 10:14 PM
had to hit the road at half time for a wedding.......listened on the radio.......

this seems to happen a lot to duke.........crappy team becomes super team, can't miss, refs like the "spunk" and they all turn into allstars...

duke rolled over............

embarrassing.....K was pissed...now, the cheats have a win, they will bring some confidence....

don't like predictions, but, this looks like an early out for this young team...

kshepinthehouse
02-03-2018, 10:16 PM
had to hit the road at half time for a wedding....listened on the radio....

this seems to happen a lot to duke.....crappy team becomes super team, can't miss, refs like the "spunk" and they all turn into allstars...

duke rolled over.......

embarrassing....K was pissed...now, the cheats have a win, they will bring some confidence...

don't like predictions, but, this looks like an early out for this young team...

One minor quibble. I don’t like the phrase the team couldn’t miss. This makes it sound like they were lucky. In actuality Duke’s defense was terrible so there was no reason for them to miss. Like we would be the lucky ones if they did haplke to miss lol

Duke76
02-03-2018, 10:31 PM
"They made us look bad but then we made ourselves look bad. We didn't play basketball the first 32 minutes worthy of our program. ... It was disgusting, really."

I don't recall the last time K used such strong words to describe a Duke performance.

I recall him talking about the "basketball gods" and everything he says in that regard is true and he has said it on more than one occasion,,,just can't remember when,,,,google might know?

left_hook_lacey
02-03-2018, 10:37 PM
Anybody know a way to watch the game replay?

Bluedog
02-03-2018, 10:45 PM
I only watched the second half but I actually don't think our initial defense was terrible at all like several people are saying -- we had a lot of blocked shots and almost always made them run a lot of time of the clock and take a tough shot. The issue was not getting the rebound and basically every single 50/50 ball going in St. John's hand. (Maybe that is considered part of a good defense though...). They had SO many second chance opportunities (on top of our TOs) that they were able to establish the tempo and take many more shots than we attempted. I think some of this was sheer luck as there were a lot of long rebounds, but sometimes it's also effort and who wants it more. I think if we get a few more of those 50/50 balls (or turn the ball over less, or make FTs), we win the game. Obviously, a very disappointing result. This team should play like they did the last 8 minutes (minus the FT shooting) the entire game and then it wouldn't have come down to execution at the end.

And, yes, Grayson absolutely needs to be more aggressive and look for his shot more (and defer to others less). He looks like a role player out there (and his usage stats back that up) when we NEED him to be the gunner that he can be to reach the team's full potential. I get that he's trying to get others involved and distribute, but I'd like to see more drives to the basket or planned screens for him to get open looks.

I don't think this loss is necessarily indicative of any likely outcome come March, though -- just demonstrates that this team can be inconsistent and unpredictable at times. If we play well and together, this team can beat basically anybody. (Conversely, can lose to many opponents if don't do that). Hopefully we see the effort and strong execution on Thursday.

uh_no
02-03-2018, 10:45 PM
based on my previous analysis, the only conclusion i can draw is that Jack should have gotten more run

brickey
02-03-2018, 11:42 PM
Is it possible Grayson has been told before one or a few games not to seek his shot?

I can think of at least two reasons why that might benefit a young team and senior (sole) captain, who I hope Jay Wright goes to sleep on later this year.

Especially this time of year, outside of conference. What’s there to lose?

Maybe K’s presser was planned before tip-off?

Yes, K hates to lose, and this team needs a ton of work —it really does— but I trust the man. The guy’s an unparalleled leader and teacher.

Call me an optimist.

ipatent
02-03-2018, 11:48 PM
Is it possible Grayson has been told before one or a few games not to seek his shot?

Coach K said in today's press meeting that he encourages his players to shoot when they are open. I think the reason Grayson hasn't taken many shots is opposing defenses make him the focus of the perimeter defense. He isn't open very often. He'd be open more if they made a point of screening for him, but it seems like the focus in practice has been feeding the post.