Chronicle writer calls out the Crazies

[scottdude8]

For those who haven't seen this yet: http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/01/make-cameron-great-again-cameron-crazies-quiet

It seems like we have this discussion every year about if this year's incarnation of the Crazies hold up to the "good old days" (although it makes me feel super old now that the "good old days" are when I was in Cameron, haha). Personally, I didn't notice anything particularly egregious from the Crazies on Saturday from my couch... it looked like a solid, if not spectacular, performance from the student section.

Does anyone who was in Cameron on Saturday, either in the student section or elsewhere, have any light to shed on this? I've stopped trying to make major judgements on the Crazies too much since a lot of the noise doesn't translate well through the TV. Interested to hear what everyone has to say!

[UrinalCake]

I was not at this game but have attended several in recent years. In general the fans are reactionary, they’ll cheer after something good happens but they don’t make noise when the team really needs them to provide a boost and some energy. They mostly just stick to the same 3-4 scripted chants. Since we were down most of the game, it’s not surprising that the writer thinks they were quiet throughout.

[hallcity]

For those who haven't seen this yet: http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/01/make-cameron-great-again-cameron-crazies-quiet

It seems like we have this discussion every year about if this year's incarnation of the Crazies hold up to the "good old days" (although it makes me feel super old now that the "good old days" are when I was in Cameron, haha). Personally, I didn't notice anything particularly egregious from the Crazies on Saturday from my couch... it looked like a solid, if not spectacular, performance from the student section.

Does anyone who was in Cameron on Saturday, either in the student section or elsewhere, have any light to shed on this? I've stopped trying to make major judgements on the Crazies too much since a lot of the noise doesn't translate well through the TV. Interested to hear what everyone has to say!

I don't agree with this. The Crazies seemed to me to be in good form. If anything, I think the Duke frosh weren't ready for that intense an environment.

[Native]

Hmm. They’re earlier than usual this year.

[Truth&Justise]

Isn't this basically the "SNL isn't as funny as it was 5-10 years ago!" argument, that somehow gets made every year?

[MarkD83]

Isn't this basically the "SNL isn't as funny as it was 5-10 years ago!" argument, that somehow gets made every year?

Maybe Duke needs a new president to inject life into the Crazies.

[BeachBlueDevil]

So the Crazies have been getting called out the last few years.... Now over that time 3rd party ticket selling sites have popped up and for just about every game you can find tickets in the student section. Is there a correlation to these sites and the lack of crazy coming for the Crazies? I think it's entirely possible that this could be a factor (but how much of a factor remains to be seen).

[uh_no]

Does anyone who was in Cameron on Saturday, either in the student section or elsewhere, have any light to shed on this? I've stopped trying to make major judgements on the Crazies too much since a lot of the noise doesn't translate well through the TV. Interested to hear what everyone has to say!

It's BS. the students were lit. The atmosphere was great leading up to the game and the place was rocking. It's always hard to stay excited when nothing much good is happening for your team, especially when the tempo is already slow....but that's mostly always been the case. This is no different than the drivel that spews out yearly on how it was better in the past. Maybe it was...but certainly not within the past 10 years since I've been here. The second half wasn't the loudest I've heard it....but it's top few.


So the Crazies have been getting called out the last few years.... Now over the time 3rd party ticket selling sites have popped up and for just about every games you can find tickets in the student section. Is their a correlation to these sites and the lack of crazy coming for the Crazies? I think it's entirely possible that this could be a factor (but how much of a factor remains to be seen).

Line monitors and the department estimate how many students will show up each game and sell the rest. This didn't happen when I was a student from 07-11, but definitely happened in the years after, and I believe I've seen it happens in the years prior. Just because they didn't sell tickets didn't mean students showed up any more. There were often lightly attended games where students were encouraged to "spread out" and "call your friends." I'm sure native would have a much better take on it.


Anyway, screw that noise. sorry the author is both entitled and disappointed.

Thanks for the students who show up and cheer. I appreciate it regardless of how much better it was or was not in the past.

[dudog84]

It's my understanding that over half of the "student section" has been turned over to non-students. Is that correct?

When I was there (long time ago, 30+ years) we had the entire bleachers except for a relatively small band section. It looks like they also took away some rows, especially at the ends.

[uh_no]

It's my understanding that over half of the "student section" has been turned over to non-students. Is that correct?

When I was there (long time ago, 30+ years) we had the entire bleachers except for a relatively small band section. It looks like they also took away some rows, especially at the ends.

Line monitors and the department estimate how many students will show up each game and sell the rest. It's on a game by game basis.

[BD80]

The Crazies were crazier in my day.

And the sun shone more brightly, gravity was stronger, we had polyester leisure suits ...

Frankly, much of what made my generation of Crazies so "crazy" is probably outlawed, illegal or severely frowned upon these days. The kids still do a great job. Earlier iterations have pretty much explored the limitations of the genre, given the constraints of good taste. All that is left is energy, and it sounds to me like it is still there.

[Rich]

The Crazies were crazier in my day.

It was better because we could throw tennis balls across the court before the game. And because of BOG. And because we old folks say so.

[CDu]

Meh. Don't care. The only knock I can really give is that the students stopped filling the student sections back during my time at Duke (Battier years). That eventually led to losing seats (now being sold). Of course, a lot of that has to do with reasonable factors: much better and more available TV coverage of each game, a student body more international and more academically-inclined (and thus perhaps having greater academic pressures), team got so good that the lesser ACC opponents were just not close games, etc. So I think it IS fair to say that the student contribution now is contributing less than it was back in the 80s/90s, but that is in no small part due to the fact that the student section itself is smaller than it was back then.

But I don't blame the students for this. The decline in attendance was understandable. The decline in craziness is also somewhat understandable, as more TV coverage means more restrictions on what can be done in the stands. Just a different world.

[CameronBornAndBred]

To the writer and his reference of Stanford's "Sixth Man" student section...been there, done that.

8036

[weezie]

..It's always hard to stay excited when nothing much good is happening for your team, especially when the tempo is already slow...but that's mostly always been the case... sorry the author is both entitled and disappointed...


Well, now wait a sec. I was there Saturday and I'll be there tonight (our annual three day layover here between close calendar games) and on Saturday I was dismayed that there were significant patches of agitated silence when a few big DEFENSE cheers might have been appropriate. Sure, once the comeback began it got louder but the Chronicle writer has a point.
No way that was on the Richter Scale of Cameron games.
But, still, the entire team left the floor after the loss by hand-slapping with the Crazies along the front row the whole way.

It was an ugly, frustrating game, just the way Tony wanted it to be. What does a visiting team like the most? Silence from the home crowd and hoos got it for most of the first half and half of the second.

The Chronicle writer is within his rights to call out the Crazies; it's their Cameron now, their time.

[UrinalCake]

Line monitors and the department estimate how many students will show up each game and sell the rest. It's on a game by game basis.

My understanding is that an hour before the game starts they look at how much space in the student section is still empty and will sell tickets to anyone who walks up to the ticket booth for $90 apiece. These people end up in the corners of the lower section on the side that the TV faces. But there may also be some amount of estimation that occurs beforehand, as you say.

dudog84, it used to be that students occupied 100% of the "TV" side and 3/4 of the "non-TV side." Now, the non-TV side has been completely turned over to be sold, minus the areas for the visiting team and their guests plus the guests/family of the Duke players. On the TV side it is mostly students but if they don't fill it then the tickets are sold. For the more popular games it will be entirely students, but for some of the preseason yawners maybe half of it will be non-students. The grad students still have both end zones (minus the band area) but for most games there is a process that allows them to bring non-student guests.

[Dev11]

To the writer and his reference of Stanford's "Sixth Man" student section...been there, done that.

8036

Is the lack of blue apparel among the fans a design choice or the style at the time? I'm 28 and I'm always fascinated by old sports photos where the fans aren't all in branded clothes.

[weezie]

My understanding is that an hour before the game starts they look at how much space in the student section is still empty and will sell tickets to anyone who walks up to the ticket booth for $90 apiece...

Not entirely. I requested an extra ticket through the IDs and received one in general admission for that same $90 nearly two weeks ago.

[CDu]

dudog84, it used to be that students occupied 100% of the "TV" side and 3/4 of the "non-TV side." Now, the non-TV side has been completely turned over to be sold, minus the areas for the visiting team and their guests plus the guests/family of the Duke players. On the TV side it is mostly students but if they don't fill it then the tickets are sold. For the more popular games it will be entirely students, but for some of the preseason yawners maybe half of it will be non-students. The grad students still have both end zones (minus the band area) but for most games there is a process that allows them to bring non-student guests.

Yep. When I was there, we had the entire TV side and the majority of the non-TV side (less the visitors' section behind the visitors' bench and the family/friends' section behind the Duke bench). I watched the Duke/UNC game in 1998 from the last row of the bleachers on the baseline behind UNC's bench.

The non-TV side is for sale, and the TV side is varying degrees of for sale depending upon attendance.

[uh_no]

My understanding is that an hour before the game starts they look at how much space in the student section is still empty and will sell tickets to anyone who walks up to the ticket booth for $90 apiece.

it's much before that. you can often find the tickets on sale on goduke way before the game. The number has to be known long before, as the area in which the students have to stand is demarcated before students even start entering the building. I imagine they also sell them if they end up with more space than expected (last week v pitt) and they'll do shenanigans like move the dancing devils into section 17 to take up space.

[weezie]

Can someone get a message to the band to NOT play the "Everytime We Touch" song when we are still down?

It's beyond ridiculous. Are they just trying to make the jumping minister with the flashlights happy or the punching older fellow feel good? It's absolutely cringe worthy when we are behind.

[dudog84]

My understanding is that an hour before the game starts they look at how much space in the student section is still empty and will sell tickets to anyone who walks up to the ticket booth for $90 apiece. These people end up in the corners of the lower section on the side that the TV faces. But there may also be some amount of estimation that occurs beforehand, as you say.

dudog84, it used to be that students occupied 100% of the "TV" side and 3/4 of the "non-TV side." Now, the non-TV side has been completely turned over to be sold, minus the areas for the visiting team and their guests plus the guests/family of the Duke players. On the TV side it is mostly students but if they don't fill it then the tickets are sold. For the more popular games it will be entirely students, but for some of the preseason yawners maybe half of it will be non-students. The grad students still have both end zones (minus the band area) but for most games there is a process that allows them to bring non-student guests.

Our dorm was always in the end zone by the Duke bench, so we were at our offensive end for 2nd half action. Otherwise I wouldn't have been about 30 feet from Tinkerbell's incredible heroics against uNC that changed my #1 sport from pro football to college basketball. I was already leaning that way, but that afternoon clinched it.

Thanks to all for the info on buying tickets. Always figured I'd have to be an Iron Duke to see another game in Cameron. Now I'll probably try and make it back.

[Dukehky]

I always thought a huge part of this is allowing people to line up for every game 8 hours before. It gives the idea that you have to spend 3 hours before the doors open standing in line, 1.5 hours waiting for the game to start, 2 hours at the game, then 30 minutes to get back to whatever you were doing.

That's entirely too much time to spend invested in 20 or so games a year. If the aura of what it takes to get into a game changes, I think more kids will come. That isn't what you have to do, most games you can get there an hour before, get a pretty good spot and have a great time, but that's not what people think of when they think of going to Duke games as students.

I don't think line monitors help either. Don't know about now, but when I was there, they were on a power trip like no one's business. Maybe I'm the jerk though.

[BigWayne]

Our dorm was always in the end zone by the Duke bench, so we were at our offensive end for 2nd half action. Otherwise I wouldn't have been about 30 feet from Tinkerbell's incredible heroics against uNC that changed my #1 sport from pro football to college basketball. I was already leaning that way, but that afternoon clinched it.

Thanks to all for the info on buying tickets. Always figured I'd have to be an Iron Duke to see another game in Cameron. Now I'll probably try and make it back.

We also sat in the end zone behind the band at that game. Was easier to meet up there without having to show up quite as early. Grad students were upstairs at that time.

End zone bleachers now appear to be significantly smaller than in the 80s. Many rows of photogs and VIPs in front of the bleachers.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

it's much before that. you can often find the tickets on sale on goduke way before the game. The number has to be known long before, as the area in which the students have to stand is demarcated before students even start entering the building. I imagine they also sell them if they end up with more space than expected (last week v pitt) and they'll do shenanigans like move the dancing devils into section 17 to take up space.

Yet we continue to brag about how many consecutive games we have sold out. I love Duke as much as the next guy, but the emperor has no clothes.

Whether it is true or not, articles like this about how Cameron isn't as loud as it once was are pointless and frankly lazy. Fortunately, it looks like The Chronicle had two other legitimate articles about the game. Complaining about "the good old days" has no place in a student newspaper, especially in an article by a current student who has no basis to make a comparison. Even if he is 100% correct (and I don't think he is), it accomplishes nothing.

[Dev11]

I always thought a huge part of this is allowing people to line up for every game 8 hours before. It gives the idea that you have to spend 3 hours before the doors open standing in line, 1.5 hours waiting for the game to start, 2 hours at the game, then 30 minutes to get back to whatever you were doing.

That's entirely too much time to spend invested in 20 or so games a year. If the aura of what it takes to get into a game changes, I think more kids will come. That isn't what you have to do, most games you can get there an hour before, get a pretty good spot and have a great time, but that's not what people think of when they think of going to Duke games as students.

I don't think line monitors help either. Don't know about now, but when I was there, they were on a power trip like no one's business. Maybe I'm the jerk though.

When I was in school, I occasionally complained, like the spoiled brat that I was and continue to be, that the power-tripping line monitors should move the undergraduate line to somewhere else that's not in the shade. Durham isn't Winnipeg or anything, but standing in the shade for 3-5 hours in February isn't fun at all. I agree that there are many factors that contribute to declining attendance, and I don't feel like blaming the current students for them, unless those current students are the line monitors. (Shoutout to my podcast friends who were both head line monitors, love you guys)

[dudog84]

I always thought a huge part of this is allowing people to line up for every game 8 hours before. It gives the idea that you have to spend 3 hours before the doors open standing in line, 1.5 hours waiting for the game to start, 2 hours at the game, then 30 minutes to get back to whatever you were doing.

That's entirely too much time to spend invested in 20 or so games a year. If the aura of what it takes to get into a game changes, I think more kids will come. That isn't what you have to do, most games you can get there an hour before, get a pretty good spot and have a great time, but that's not what people think of when they think of going to Duke games as students.

I don't think line monitors help either. Don't know about now, but when I was there, they were on a power trip like no one's business. Maybe I'm the jerk though.

Excellent point. The only game we ever had to line up for was uNC for a few hours. No tenting. I seem to remember the student section was always full but I could be wrong. And I've often thought my parents would have gone ballistic if they knew I was in a tent with the room & board they were paying. I didn't get to see the great Duke teams in person, but that was still good times.

[dudog84]

We also sat in the end zone behind the band at that game. Was easier to meet up there without having to show up quite as early. Grad students were upstairs at that time.

End zone bleachers now appear to be significantly smaller than in the 80s. Many rows of photogs and VIPs in front of the bleachers.

I don't know you, but we may have hugged at one time. :D

[pfrduke]

Yep. When I was there, we had the entire TV side and the majority of the non-TV side (less the visitors' section behind the visitors' bench and the family/friends' section behind the Duke bench). I watched the Duke/UNC game in 1998 from the last row of the bleachers on the baseline behind UNC's bench.

The non-TV side is for sale, and the TV side is varying degrees of for sale depending upon attendance.

I loved sitting on the non-TV side. They would sit NBA scouts over there (behind the scorer's table) and I had several halftime conversations with scouts about what they liked/didn't like. It was really fascinating learning - guys who were dropping 20 that the scouts were completely discounting, saying he was only getting "college shots" and guys with particular skills that they were noting as NBA-level. Not everything proved out, of course, but it was good basketball education.

[-bdbd]

Is the lack of blue apparel among the fans a design choice or the style at the time? I'm 28 and I'm always fascinated by old sports photos where the fans aren't all in branded clothes.


IIRC, it was a totally staged photo. Not a game day. They advertised for fans to come to CIS at X time on Y day and you could be in a poster. I think folks just went over after class, for the most part, in whatever they were wearing.

[sagegrouse]

Yet we continue to brag about how many consecutive games we have sold out. I love Duke as much as the next guy, but the emperor has no clothes.

All the tickets were sold -- what's your point?

[trinity92]

It was better because we could throw tennis balls across the court before the game. And because of BOG. And because we old folks say so.

Ditto.

Late 1980s games, behind the visitor bench with the BOGgers (although wasn't a member), stat sheets at halftime, Cameron was loud, bleachers were shaking, life was good.

Also junior year in 1991 with dorm room facing Towerview, could see the line start to move and then run across the parking lot to get in for the less desirable games. That was nice too.

[CDu]

I loved sitting on the non-TV side. They would sit NBA scouts over there (behind the scorer's table) and I had several halftime conversations with scouts about what they liked/didn't like. It was really fascinating learning - guys who were dropping 20 that the scouts were completely discounting, saying he was only getting "college shots" and guys with particular skills that they were noting as NBA-level. Not everything proved out, of course, but it was good basketball education.

Yeah I loved that side. The other dirty little secret: sitting behind the scorer’s table gives you more TV time than the TV side.

[Bluedog]

dudog84, it used to be that students occupied 100% of the "TV" side and 3/4 of the "non-TV side." Now, the non-TV side has been completely turned over to be sold, minus the areas for the visiting team and their guests plus the guests/family of the Duke players. On the TV side it is mostly students but if they don't fill it then the tickets are sold. For the more popular games it will be entirely students, but for some of the preseason yawners maybe half of it will be non-students. The grad students still have both end zones (minus the band area) but for most games there is a process that allows them to bring non-student guests.


Yep. When I was there, we had the entire TV side and the majority of the non-TV side (less the visitors' section behind the visitors' bench and the family/friends' section behind the Duke bench). I watched the Duke/UNC game in 1998 from the last row of the bleachers on the baseline behind UNC's bench.

The non-TV side is for sale, and the TV side is varying degrees of for sale depending upon attendance.

This is somewhat true, but what you're leaving out is that they moved the grad students from the endline corners to behind the both baskets. And undergrads now fill in the corner on the TV side. Grad students used to just be in one endzone and they'd fill in the corners of the bleacher sides. Mickie (of all people) brought up the fact that the visitor's would always shoot FTs in the second half against a backdrop of people sitting in their chairs (used to be the 'high rollers' cushy seats). So, they got rid of the non-TV side for undergrads and moved them in the corner were the grad students used to be, and moved the grad students who used to be in the corners to the other endzone. Supposedly, the total undergrad capacity was mostly unchanged, although I found that hard to believe. I would also say the non-TV side was more like half Duke students. The "friends and family" of Duke players was pretty huge as was the "visitor's friends and family" section. And there were times when football recruits or other people would be on that side and take up space.

I, too, remember being on the non-TV side fondly. I witnessed the famous Jordan Davidson dogging Chris Paul game (Duke won 102-92 with JJ scoring 38) from the non-TV side with possibly the largest student attendance ever at a game in that era (blazindw would have to verify...) as basically both sides were filled with people standing sideways and crammed in like I've never seen before. It was awesome seeing the crowd on the other side going crazy and being behind the Wake bench.

[duke2x]

it's much before that. you can often find the tickets on sale on goduke way before the game. The number has to be known long before, as the area in which the students have to stand is demarcated before students even start entering the building. I imagine they also sell them if they end up with more space than expected (last week v pitt) and they'll do shenanigans like move the dancing devils into section 17 to take up space.

My understanding is they have tried everything. Students were allegedly required to make some type of reservation in advance 7-10 years ago but did not show, leaving empty seats. If you go back to the 2016 UVA game, students were turned away because they sold tickets to Iron Duke alumni like me. As much as I enjoyed that game, those tickets should be filled by current Duke students first. The Iron Duke process changes frequently without notice, such as the silent sale for the Pitt game, for donors who do want those extra student seats. I won't complain too much because (a) I'm out of the basketball scene until March at least; and (b) I regretfully think we're much closer than we want to admit to selling corner student seats as season tickets.

Of course we were better when I was a student. :D Empty seats were pretty rare in 1995 when I was a freshman walking uphill both ways between the bus stop and Cameron.

[Dukehky]

This is somewhat true, but what you're leaving out is that they moved the grad students from the endline corners to behind the both baskets. And undergrads now fill in the corner on the TV side. Grad students used to just be in one endzone and they'd fill in the corners of the bleacher sides. Mickie (of all people) brought up the fact that the visitor's would always shoot FTs in the second half against a backdrop of people sitting in their chairs (used to be the 'high rollers' cushy seats). So, they got rid of the non-TV side for undergrads and moved them in the corner were the grad students used to be, and moved the grad students who used to be in the corners to the other endzone. Supposedly, the total undergrad capacity was mostly unchanged, although I found that hard to believe. I would also say the non-TV side was more like half Duke students. The "friends and family" of Duke players was pretty huge as was the "visitor's friends and family" section. And there were times when football recruits or other people would be on that side and take up space.

I, too, remember being on the non-TV side fondly. I witnessed the famous Jordan Davidson dogging Chris Paul game (Duke won 102-92 with JJ scoring 38) from the non-TV side with possibly the largest student attendance ever at a game in that era (blazindw would have to verify...) as basically both sides were filled with people standing sideways and crammed in like I've never seen before. It was awesome seeing the crowd on the other side going crazy and being behind the Wake bench.

If they can't fill up the regular student's section, having seats available behind the scorer's table doesn't really matter...

I saw a 30 point beatdown of greivis Vasquez MD team from the third row behind the scorer's table. I had the best view in the house. Yeah, it was awesome. But that doesn't answer the question or solve the problem, if you think there is one.

I really think the biggest issue is the perception of what it takes to get into games. And I think people who are willing to do that perpetuate the rumor that you have line up super early to deter other students from going so they can continue to get the best seats.

That was my experience, although, that is getting to be longer and longer ago that it may not be relevant, but it at least makes some sense to me?

[TKG]

Unless and until the actions/antics of the Crazies result in a second encyclical- the avuncular letter, part II - the current will pale in comparison to the original article! 😱

[RPS]

I came to Duke in the 1970s.

Students occupied 100 percent of the "TV" side, almost all of the "non-TV side" (other than the areas for the visiting team and their guests plus the guests/family of the Duke players), and all the bleachers under the baskets (but for photographers, TV cameras and the band). Grad students were above the bleachers in seats -- on the same end as the visiting bench. One exception was in 1979, when Dick Enberg, Al McGuire and Billy Packer sat in the student section for a Carolina (GTHCGTH!) game broadcast for NBC (behind the scorer's table), the first national broadcast from Cameron. The game was broadcast on delay (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209860299), apparently (I don't know for sure because I was at the game, so I couldn't check by watching the broadcast and listening to the Bob Harris call on WDNC).

The student sections were always full.

We were much louder, more profane, creative and crazy.

Get off my lawn.

[sagegrouse]

Yeah I loved that side. The other dirty little secret: sitting behind the scorer’s table gives you more TV time than the TV side.

whence the Cameron term, "media slut."

[UrinalCake]

I watched the Duke/UNC game in 1998 from the last row of the bleachers on the baseline behind UNC's bench.

I was standing not too far from you, near the middle of the non-TV side and a few rows up from the back. Still my most favorite game ever attended. We had been beat down by UNC for several years, but Elton came back and Wojo was an animal on defense and we wouldn’t be denied.

[CDu]

I was standing not too far from you, near the middle of the non-TV side and a few rows up from the back. Still my most favorite game ever attended. We had been beat down by UNC for several years, but Elton came back and Wojo was an animal on defense and we wouldn’t be denied.

Yep, still the most fun game I have ever been to in person.

[dudog84]

I came to Duke in the 1970s.

Students occupied 100 percent of the "TV" side, almost all of the "non-TV side" (other than the areas for the visiting team and their guests plus the guests/family of the Duke players), and all the bleachers under the baskets (but for photographers, TV cameras and the band). Grad students were above the bleachers in seats -- on the same end as the visiting bench. One exception was in 1979, when Dick Enberg, Al McGuire and Billy Packer sat in the student section for a Carolina (GTHCGTH!) game broadcast for NBC (behind the scorer's table), the first national broadcast from Cameron. The game was broadcast on delay (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209860299), apparently (I don't know for sure because I was at the game, so I couldn't check by watching the broadcast and listening to the Bob Harris call on WDNC).

The student sections were always full.

We were much louder, more profane, creative and crazy.

Get off my lawn.

Definitely more profane.

[RPS]

Definitely more profane.

And some of the worst things weren't even profane, strictly speaking.

In related news, it's now hard to believe that in those days the Chronicle published an ACC basketball All-Ugly team every year.

[Dukehky]

I yelled the f word in the student section one time. Not at anyone, just exclaimed in frustration. A girl turned around and said, "Hey, we don't say that here, we have class." People around nodded in agreement with her.

To this day, I cannot believe that happened.

The Crazies lost the benefit of the doubt with me at that point. I assume that they won't do anything cool ever again, and am pleasantly surprised when that is not the case. No one ever wants to be mean anymore. It's okay to be mean. Just don't cross the line.

[jimsumner]

We just had to go to the freshman game, before the varsity game. Four hours of hoops, no line, no tents.

Good times.

[Native]

At this point we should just extract this out into a new section to the Handy Pocket Reference.

The Students Aren't As Good As They Were When I Was At Duke, Because...

1) ...we filled up both sides of Cameron all the time, even when we were playing the Second Cousins of the Sisters of the Poor.
2A) ...we didn't have to wait in line for games! We could just walk right in.
2B) ...we waited in line for six semesters for one Carolina game!
3) ...this one time, we threw tennis balls across the court before warm-ups.
4) ...this one time, we threw pizza boxes at Lorenzo Charles.
5) ...this one time, we threw album covers at Chris Washburn.
6) ...those damn Line Monitors weren't around to screw things up.
7) ...we jumped all the time on defense, in perpetuity. Chris Freeman (B.S. '87) is still jumping to this day.
8) ...I didn't get chastised for dropping F-bombs in the student section.
9) ...Uncle Terry wrote us this letter. Maybe you've heard of it?
10) ...Bill Werber served the beer.
11) ...this was before Brodhead and Keohane went full CYA mode in pushing Greeks off-campus.
12) ...we didn't have this new-fangled Snapchat and Twitter stuff to worry about.
13A) ...Everytime We Touch wasn't played at all.
13B) ...Everytime We Touch was played more than it is now.
13C) ...Everytime We Touch was substituted for that Rick Roll song while I was there.
14A) ...we never lost to Carolina.
14B) ...we lost to Carolina, but we came through the experience hardened to the cruel ways of the world.
15) ...we got really, really, really loud this one time.
16) ...K didn't censor the students.
17A) ...Athletics prioritized students over putting donors in the cushy padded-butt seats in 19.
17B) ...Athletics prioritized students in 19 over filling both 18 and 20.
18) ...the home schedule had us playing the Monstars from the movie Space Jam night in and night out, and the students willed the team to victory.
19) ...the ACC hadn't expanded to too many games during the conference slate, saturating the market with mediocre competition.
20) ...ESPN hadn't yet developed Super Mega Ultra HD technology, and leather couches didn't exist — nor did the concept of drinking at home.
21) ...this one time, Wojo came to my fraternity section and asked us all to come to games.
22) ...Duke didn't avoid students who admitted to liking basketball in their applications.
23) ...Duke didn't prioritize taking international students who don't like basketball as much.
24) ...Duke students in my day were far better at time management and therefore had 36-hour days to work with.
25) ...we could buy kegs when I was a student and all of the parties were on West. Bring back kegs.
26) ...the Bunch of Guys were way [cooler/wittier/cleverer/better-looking] than you.
27) ...the lacrosse scandal scared everyone into being overly politically correct.
28) ...we were comfortable enough with ourselves to wear Speedos in public.
29A) ...we did [chant] way more often, and it was 100% effective in preventing the other team from scoring, so the students should do [chant].
29B) ...[chant] is lame and overused, and the students shouldn't use it anymore.
30) ...the Goon Squad lit a grill tent on fire during the Kyrie season. How many tents have you lit on fire? Exactly.
31) ...the band played Hey Baby.

Ad nauseam.

[CDu]

To be fair, Native, I don’t think you were born yet when Duke wasn’t televised for every game. ;)

But seriously, I do think the availability of televised games is a big factor here. I am as big a bball fan as you will find, and even I skipped a bunch of games because they were televised (I regret that now). Back in the 80s and even early 90s, this just wasn’t an option.

When we are talking about attendance drops of only about 300-500 people, it doesn’t take much to do it.

[blazindw]

Ever since I graduated, I have offered to come back to Durham once a year for one night during orientation where I teach the freshman all the chants and give them pointers on what to do and how to continue keeping Cameron a magical place. I know they did this when I was in school, but it was led by the HLM. I'm still offering to do it, and I'm sure Native and I can get the kids going each year.

[Native]

Ever since I graduated, I have offered to come back to Durham once a year for one night during orientation where I teach the freshman all the chants and give them pointers on what to do and how to continue keeping Cameron a magical place. I know they did this when I was in school, but it was led by the HLM. I'm still offering to do it, and I'm sure Native and I can get the kids going each year.

Oh, my God, yes. +1,000,000.

[blazindw]

Oh, my God, yes. +1,000,000.

I'm dead serious. Who do we need to talk to in order to make this happen. It will be a new tradition!

[CDu]

Ever since I graduated, I have offered to come back to Durham once a year for one night during orientation where I teach the freshman all the chants and give them pointers on what to do and how to continue keeping Cameron a magical place. I know they did this when I was in school, but it was led by the HLM. I'm still offering to do it, and I'm sure Native and I can get the kids going each year.

I don’t think the “problem” (if there is one) is not knowing the stock cheers and gimmicks.

[weezie]

I'm dead serious. Who do we need to talk to in order to make this happen. It will be a new tradition!

Hold up, there. I'm coming too. Let's have a female in that mix please. I have knowledge to impart.

[devildeac]

Hold up, there. I'm coming too. Let's have a female in that mix please. I have knowledge to impart.

And I had 3/4 of a pint of Knowledge last PM:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3840-Ymm-Beer/page749

(scroll to bottom of page :o)

[dukebsbll14]

31) ...the band played Hey Baby.

Ad nauseam.

FACT: There is a positive correlation between the rise of the annual "The Crazies aren't what they used to be" article and when the band stopped playing Hey Baby.

[Native]

FACT: There is a positive correlation between the rise of the annual "The Crazies aren't what they used to be" article and when the band stopped playing Hey Baby.

This line item was included solely for your enjoyment!

[weezie]

I do miss "OH BABY"

[YmoBeThere]

What about the Twinkies and Dennis Scott?

[Native]

What about the Twinkies and Dennis Scott?

Ah, if only I could edit beyond 15 minutes. This is why we need this in a living, breathing document! For science!

[tteettimes]

And Dick Papparo

And Richard Papparo

[RPS]

And Richard PapparoAnd Hank Nichols.

[uh_no]

And Hank Nichols.

....and my axe?

[devildeac]

FACT: There is a positive correlation between the rise of the annual "The Crazies aren't what they used to be" article and when the band stopped playing Hey Baby.


I do miss "OH BABY"

So do I. See post #14349 here:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?5554-The-longest-thread-ever/page718

Couldn't get photo from one thread to another. Above my pay level :o.

Will try a "video" link even though it's a still photo :o:


http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/download/file.php?id=1151&t=1

Yes, they are dancing to Hey, Baby.

[devildeac]

And Dick Papparo

And Richard Papparo

Both of them sucked.

[devildeac]

...and my axe?

Wait, I know you and your name is not Eugene.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8OE4gedQuc

Or, did you mean this:

8039

[dudog84]

And Dick Papparo

And Richard Papparo


And Hank Nichols.

And Lenny. LENNY!

[CrazyNotCrazie]

And Lenny. LENNY!

Lenny is the Wirtz!

[IrishDevil]

Ever since I graduated, I have offered to come back to Durham once a year for one night during orientation where I teach the freshman all the chants and give them pointers on what to do and how to continue keeping Cameron a magical place. I know they did this when I was in school, but it was led by the HLM. I'm still offering to do it, and I'm sure Native and I can get the kids going each year.


Oh, my God, yes. +1,000,000.

Wait, has this really stopped?! As one of the bright-eyed frosh shown the ropes by blazindw, I can attest to the power of this practice. Seriously, make this a thing again!

[Viking Guy]

Ever since I graduated, I have offered to come back to Durham once a year for one night during orientation where I teach the freshman all the chants and give them pointers on what to do and how to continue keeping Cameron a magical place. I know they did this when I was in school, but it was led by the HLM. I'm still offering to do it, and I'm sure Native and I can get the kids going each year.

Oh, hi! Viking Guy here.

I would imagine that you could recruit a handful of prominent former grad skoolers to help you out. :-)

PS: I thought the Crazies were outstanding versus ND. I loved the relentless Airballing of Pflueger. And, of course, the mad love for Jack White (who will assuredly become "That Annoying Energy Guy" a la Lee Melchionni / Nick Horvath / Carmen Wallace)

[Viking Guy]

PPS: Things that must stop: "You Suck" and "N-I-T"

[Stray Gator]

PPS: Things that must stop: "You Suck" and "N-I-T"

Amen, Viking Guy. The Cameron Crazies earned their reputation as the best student section based mainly on (a) sustained enthusiastic support for the home team; and (b) cheers against the opposing team that were clever, original, and humorous. Yelling "you suck" when the visiting team's players are introduced is the opposite of clever, original, and humorous -- it's puerile, it's not funny, and it makes the Crazies look like they're copying the kind of boorish behavior that we've previously derided by student sections at places like Maryland and FSU. I thought that practice in Cameron had finally, thankfully, become extinct; but this season it seems to be making an unwelcome and highly regrettable comeback.

As for the "N.I.T." chant, it might be appropriate if directed at a rival team playing at full strength that is struggling and experiencing a season that fails to meet expectations. But using it to taunt a respected conference foe that is severely handicapped by the absence of its two best players due to injuries, and is led by a respected coach who once occupied a seat on the Duke bench -- and while there, incidentally, made valuable contributions to the capture of those first two national championship banners -- is not just unseemly, but inexcusably rude.

In my opinion, both the "you suck" and the "N.I.T." chants were embarrassing to the Crazies and to Duke fans generally. I hope that we'll never hear the former in Cameron again, and that any recurrence of the latter, if at all, will be reserved for those rare occasions when the visiting team genuinely deserves such taunting.

[DU82]

PPS: Things that must stop: "You Suck" and "N-I-T"

I would be OK with the latter cheer returning during our last home game this season.

[Native]

Amen, Viking Guy. The Cameron Crazies earned their reputation as the best student section based mainly on (a) sustained enthusiastic support for the home team; and (b) cheers against the opposing team that were clever, original, and humorous. Yelling "you suck" when the visiting team's players are introduced is the opposite of clever, original, and humorous -- it's puerile, it's not funny, and it makes the Crazies look like they're copying the kind of boorish behavior that we've previously derided by student sections at places like Maryland and FSU. I thought that practice in Cameron had finally, thankfully, become extinct; but this season it seems to be making an unwelcome and highly regrettable comeback.

As for the "N.I.T." chant, it might be appropriate if directed at a rival team playing at full strength that is struggling and experiencing a season that fails to meet expectations. But using it to taunt a respected conference foe that is severely handicapped by the absence of its two best players due to injuries, and is led by a respected coach who once occupied a seat on the Duke bench -- and while there, incidentally, made valuable contributions to the capture of those first two national championship banners -- is not just unseemly, but inexcusably rude.

In my opinion, both the "you suck" and the "N.I.T." chants were embarrassing to the Crazies and to Duke fans generally. I hope that we'll never hear the former in Cameron again, and that any recurrence of the latter, if at all, will be reserved for those rare occasions when the visiting team genuinely deserves such taunting.

Yeah, because chanting about sexual assault towards Herman Veal was definitely not inexcusably rude.

This is part of the problem. We talk a lot about crossing the line, but everyone has a different definition of where that line is; in effect, it doesn't exist. Ditto for what any one person might find clever or humorous. There are either two responses: either the current students throw caution to the wind and do whatever they find funny whenever they like, or they do what they currently do: resort to the same set of stock cheers and refrain from rocking the boat.

Everyone wants the students to live up to their own ideal of what Cameron should be. The students don't have to live up to anyone's ideal but their own. That's part of what makes Cameron so great. The traditions surrounding hoops culture at Duke would have died out a long time ago if they were so rigid that nothing new could be brought to the table.

Would I have started either of those cheers? Probably not. But the current students are never, never, never, ever, ever going to live up to what the alumni think they should be doing. Ever. And that's a good thing. Personally, as long as they're doing their absolute best to help the team win, keep the taunts confined to the players on the court, and don't run afoul of television censors en masse, that'd be good enough for me. It's up to the current students, coaches, players, and administrators to self-police and figure out where the line is.

[DukieInKansas]

Before I tell the young folks to stay off my lawn, I have to chime in on the not liking "you suck" side - mainly because it isn't very original. I think they could have a lot of fun with it by changing it up periodically. Perhaps a "welcome to Cameron" for the first time a player comes to Cameron, "you're short" for the shortest starter, "it's been fun/real/or Thank God you're leaving" for a senior, etc.

I'll go back to my rocking chair now. ;)

[Stray Gator]

Yeah, because chanting about sexual assault towards Herman Veal was definitely not inexcusably rude.

I believe it absolutely was inexcusably rude. Although you insinuate that I would approve of that taunt, nothing in my post suggests, much less supports, what you imply -- that I would deem all past cheers used by the Crazies as clever, original, and humorous. I do not appreciate your ascribing to me an unfounded position, and I do not appreciate the snarky tone of your response, which is unwarranted. I agreed with another poster's statement of opinion that those two chants last night should stop, and I explained as clearly as I could why I believe each is inappropriate. You evidently disagree, which is your privilege. Maybe you would find my circle of friends too narrow and too old, but I don't know anyone who thinks it's clever or humorous to yell "you suck" at opposing players or to chant "N.I.T." at a team that is missing its two best players because of injuries.


This is part of the problem. We talk a lot about crossing the line, but everyone has a different definition of where that line is; in effect, it doesn't exist. Ditto for what any one person might find clever or humorous. There are either two responses: either the current students throw caution to the wind and do whatever they find funny whenever they like, or they do what they currently do: resort to the same set of stock cheers and refrain from rocking the boat.

Everyone wants the students to live up to their own ideal of what Cameron should be. The students don't have to live up to anyone's ideal but their own. That's part of what makes Cameron so great. The traditions surrounding hoops culture at Duke would have died out a long time ago if they were so rigid that nothing new could be brought to the table.

That comment seems ironic, given the fact that (a) there's certainly nothing "new" about either the "you suck" chant or the "N.I.T." taunt; and (b) a principal point of my message expressing distaste for those "cheers" is the very fact that they're not original (or, in my opinion, clever or funny, though I'll concede that some might disagree on those points). In fact, the complaints I hear about going to Cameron now -- not just from "old-timers," but from classmates of my children who were at Duke in the past 15-20 years -- is that the game day experience seems rigidly scripted, with the same cheers and the same pep band songs and the same on-court routines being performed in the same sequence over and over again. But that was not the target of my post. I simply stated my opinion that those two cheers last night were inappropriate and embarrassing.


Would I have started either of those cheers? Probably not. But the current students are never, never, never, ever, ever going to live up to what the alumni think they should be doing. Ever. And that's a good thing. Personally, as long as they're doing their absolute best to help the team win, keep the taunts confined to the players on the court, and don't run afoul of television censors en masse, that'd be good enough for me. It's up to the current students, coaches, players, and administrators to self-police and figure out where the line is.

If it's good enough for you, then so be it.

[Viking Guy]

Yeah, because chanting about sexual assault towards Herman Veal was definitely not inexcusably rude.

This is part of the problem. We talk a lot about crossing the line, but everyone has a different definition of where that line is; in effect, it doesn't exist. Ditto for what any one person might find clever or humorous. There are either two responses: either the current students throw caution to the wind and do whatever they find funny whenever they like, or they do what they currently do: resort to the same set of stock cheers and refrain from rocking the boat.

Everyone wants the students to live up to their own ideal of what Cameron should be. The students don't have to live up to anyone's ideal but their own. That's part of what makes Cameron so great. The traditions surrounding hoops culture at Duke would have died out a long time ago if they were so rigid that nothing new could be brought to the table.

Would I have started either of those cheers? Probably not. But the current students are never, never, never, ever, ever going to live up to what the alumni think they should be doing. Ever. And that's a good thing. Personally, as long as they're doing their absolute best to help the team win, keep the taunts confined to the players on the court, and don't run afoul of television censors en masse, that'd be good enough for me. It's up to the current students, coaches, players, and administrators to self-police and figure out where the line is.

Well, our current coach is no fan of the "You suck" introduction. He's made that very clear. And I would wager he would have the same opinion about the "NIT" cheer last night.

I have no problem with each generation finding it's own path. Cameron was very different when I left in 2007 versus when I first entered in 1994 (My associates and I may have had some small part in that).

I have no problem with getting close to the line of social acceptability. Speedo Guy was pretty close to the line, to name one high-profile example. But he was effective, and he cost UNC two points.

What I have a major, major problem with is a lack of creativity and differentiation. Literally anyone can yell "You suck" at an opponent. It's boring, lame, and not terribly effective. But asking Jeff McInnis during introductions if he "has driven a Ford lately?" - that's genius!

The kids can do what they want, but it had better be 1) creative and 2) effective. And let's try not to embarrass the school too much.

[throatybeard]

I'm no help. I ceased caring what the students do in Cameron around the same time that Bill Werber stopped serving the beer.

[Viking Guy]

I'm no help. I ceased caring what the students do in Cameron around the same time that Bill Werber stopped serving the beer.

I think we can all agree that the overall decency of Cameron went up dramatically upon your graduation.

[throatybeard]

I think we can all agree that the overall decency of Cameron went up dramatically upon your graduation.

Which one?

[Viking Guy]

Which one?

It was an incremental advancement in decency with each subsequent degree you earned. I'm sure your nemesis Mr. Hodge would agree.

[throatybeard]

It was an incremental advancement in decency with each subsequent degree you earned. I'm sure your nemesis Mr. Hodge would agree.

8050

[Native]

I believe it absolutely was inexcusably rude. Although you insinuate that I would approve of that taunt, nothing in my post suggests, much less supports, what you imply -- that I would deem all past cheers used by the Crazies as clever, original, and humorous. I do not appreciate your ascribing to me an unfounded position, and I do not appreciate the snarky tone of your response, which is unwarranted. I agreed with another poster's statement of opinion that those two chants last night should stop, and I explained as clearly as I could why I believe each is inappropriate. You evidently disagree, which is your privilege. Maybe you would find my circle of friends too narrow and too old, but I don't know anyone who thinks it's clever or humorous to yell "you suck" at opposing players or to chant "N.I.T." at a team that is missing its two best players because of injuries.

Apologies for the unintended snark, Stray Gator. My comments weren't directed at you, but rather critics of the students who tend to hold up things in the past that would never fly today as examples of creativity.

I introduced the Herman Veal example (admittedly the conversational equivalent of pouring a keg of gunpowder on this thread and lighting it on fire) not to insinuate that you might approve of that particular chant. Rather, I hoped to show that students from 15-20 years ago — who are pretty universally accepted as superior to their present-day counterparts — also crossed the line in ways far worse than chanting "You Suck" at another player.

In short, the point I (poorly) tried to make was that these critics of our students want to have their cake and eat it too. Either the students have the freedom to screw up every now and then or they don't. This includes doing things that aren't clever or genius just as much as doing things that cross the line in terms of vulgarity or obscenity. They can't all be winners. And by prescribing some preconceived notion regarding what is or isn't Cameron proper, such critics — Chronicle columnists and Coach K alike — are in fact limiting what the students could be. You're 100% right: everything in Cameron is scripted today, and I believe censorship has a lot to do with it.

(For the record, I think "You Suck" is overplayed to the n-th degree and did my best to curtail it during my time at Duke.)

[cato]

I hoped to show that students from 15-20 years ago — who are pretty universally accepted as superior to their present-day counterparts — also crossed the line in ways far worse than chanting "You Suck" at another player.


I was a student 15-20 years ago (barely), and I recall K telling us to cut out the “you suck” stuff.

I am not sure how creative we were or were not. I did like throwing the tennis balls across the court.

Chants are nice and all, but the real difference is when Cameron gets assault-your-senses loud. I’m pretty sure these kids can do that if they need to.

[Native]

Chants are nice and all, but the real difference is when Cameron gets assault-your-senses loud. I’m pretty sure these kids can do that if they need to.

This times a million.

[-jk]

I was a student 15-20 years ago (barely), and I recall K telling us to cut out the “you suck” stuff.

I am not sure how creative we were or were not. I did like throwing the tennis balls across the court...

It was Frisbees before it was tennis balls...

-jk

[luvdahops]

I was a student 15-20 years ago (barely), and I recall K telling us to cut out the “you suck” stuff.

I am not sure how creative we were or were not. I did like throwing the tennis balls across the court.

Chants are nice and all, but the real difference is when Cameron gets assault-your-senses loud. I’m pretty sure these kids can do that if they need to.

I couldn't agree more. This is generally what non Duke-affiliated folks who've been to Cameron talk about most. And that volume provides adrenaline to our guys, and distraction and intimidation to opponents.

I am also OK with occasional line crossing in the pursuit of creativity ("You suck" and "NIT" do not meet this standard), recognizing that both creativity and line crossing may be in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. But the ear-splitting volume is what counts most.

[gotoguy]

I miss the cloggers

[uh_no]

i miss the cloggers

bouncing bulldogs

[MulletMan]

It was an incremental advancement in decency with each subsequent degree you earned. I'm sure your nemesis Mr. Hodge would agree.


8050

You gentleman, and I do use the term loosely, amuse me. Do you know what we had in common with the tennis balls? Someone to get it started and coordination. Therein lies the key... me and Viking with Pasha and Blazin (yes... different eras, but we were there a long dang time). Some cooperation and some communication. Talking before the game, dry erase board, whatever.

You know, that and Pepsi 152. That helps with the loudness.

And to Blazin and Native, I had these same conversations with a couple of folks in the basketball office a long time ago. There was interest, and we know most of the same people. Just sayin'...

[uh_no]

You gentleman, and I do use the term loosely, amuse me. Do you know what we had in common with the tennis balls? Someone to get it started and coordination. Therein lies the key... me and Viking with Pasha and Blazin (yes... different eras, but we were there a long dang time). Some cooperation and some communication. Talking before the game, dry erase board, whatever.

You know, that and Pepsi 152. That helps with the loudness.

And to Blazin and Native, I had these same conversations with a couple of folks in the basketball office a long time ago. There was interest, and we know most of the same people. Just sayin'...

Man....you had it good back in the day. I could only get my hands on pepsi 151 :)

[Truth&Justise]

Chants are nice and all, but the real difference is when Cameron gets assault-your-senses loud. I’m pretty sure these kids can do that if they need to.

Agree fully. That's one of the reasons I really enjoyed the piece written by a UVA reporter about watching Saturday's game with the crazies (https://www.streakingthelawn.com/2018/1/29/16945436/cameron-crazies-virginia-cavaliers-duke-blue-devils-college-basketball-2018-uva-kyle-guy):


Just like that, we were tied at 39 with tons of time left on the clock. It felt as though someone had chummed the water. Each time I thought it couldn’t possibly get louder, my eardrums quaked. Then, Bagley put Duke ahead for the first time since it was 6-5.

To be honest, it was incredible. It was the kind of noise you didn’t so much hear, but could feel in your chest. Somehow, there seemed to be less space than there was before, and the temperature had creeped up even more.

Clever chants or not, that is Cameron to me. My best experience of that so-loud-you-feel-it-in-your-chest noise was against UNC in 2011. Each time Duke cut into the lead it built and built and built, and I couldn't believe it could get any louder until it did. Just incredible. Since it can evidently still get that loud in Cameron, I think we're doing fine.

And as a nice rejoinder, JD highlighted a piece from the Chronicle about a student who never thought she'd get into basketball but is totally hooked now: Tenting, A Journey in Five Parts (http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/01/180131-hong-tenting). Great quote:


Yes, I love Duke basketball now. I don’t know exactly what it is – perhaps the constant action and excitement in a game; the unity of the entire crowd in Cameron singing to the same song, shouting the same phrase and repeating the same gestures; or the pride associated with having one of the best teams in the nation that is winning practically all the games (or most of them, at least).

The kids are alright.

[uh_no]

Clever chants or not, that is Cameron to me. My best experience of that so-loud-you-feel-it-in-your-chest noise was against UNC in 2011.

Easily the loudest game I've been at.....though the OT game a few years ago comes close. the team hadn't lost at home in 2 years at that point, and kyle and nolan sure as hell weren't going to lose that one.

[devil84]

I introduced the Herman Veal example (admittedly the conversational equivalent of pouring a keg of gunpowder on this thread and lighting it on fire) not to insinuate that you might approve of that particular chant. Rather, I hoped to show that students from 15-20 years ago — who are pretty universally accepted as superior to their present-day counterparts — also crossed the line in ways far worse than chanting "You Suck" at another player.

Can I clarify a point? The Herman Veal incident was a few years more than 15-20 years ago. It was January 11, 1984. It was the game that prompted Uncle Terry's Avuncular Letter (http://exhibits.library.duke.edu/archive/files/cca15475ca8e2844e1d4d112d7771d0f.jpg) that started a cultural shift from away from a sink into boorishness. To hold that as an example of how "superior" student sections sometimes cross the line is disingenuous. Rather, that particular incident was the catalyst the challenged the student body to be best, eventually earning the Crazies moniker and become the student section that other schools try to emulate. The difference in the crowd that year before and after that game -- the student section really upped their creativity after this letter. (I know, I was there for every game!)
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8053&stc=1
Otherwise, Native, I agree that each generation of students has their good and bad. Each has to find their own way.

For those readers that haven't read Uncle Terry's letter, it's really a must-read. It's wonderful advice. It addresses both showering players with panties and condoms as well as chanting, "You Suck."

[Viking Guy]

Man...you had it good back in the day. I could only get my hands on pepsi 151 :)

You are doing it wrong.

Bacardi 151 + Pepsi One = Pepsi 152

- Take a standard 2L bottle of soda and dump out 750 ML
- Add all the Barcardi
- Find three other morons and drink it as fast as you can, preferably right before being admitted to Cameron
- Hijinks ensue.

IIRC, this concoction was invented when Throaty was on a low-carb diet and tried to figure out the least caloric way to drink prior to the game. We were so very very smart back then.

[Viking Guy]

I introduced the Herman Veal example (admittedly the conversational equivalent of pouring a keg of gunpowder on this thread and lighting it on fire) not to insinuate that you might approve of that particular chant. Rather, I hoped to show that students from 15-20 years ago — who are pretty universally accepted as superior to their present-day counterparts — also crossed the line in ways far worse than chanting "You Suck" at another player.



Lots of great innovations have happened in Cameron in the last 20 years.

Crazies in the mid-late 1990s actually weren't all that great, compared to what came after. It took a LOT to even get the crowd bouncing on defense, which only happened every third game or so. The grad students were basically worthless other than for free throws. Cameron was loud, but not as loud as you hear now.

The tradition of wearing goofy costumes in Cameron didn't really got going until the early part of the 2000s. There were always a few here or there, but not the full-on halloween party you see nowadays. Mostly, people just wore random white t-shirts.

During my (extensive) tenure, I would say that 2003-04 was a peak moment in terms of raw power. As Mullet notes, things also got a lot more coordinated around that time. We would have little meetings with the various crowd leaders before the game and during halftime, planning out what to do. This wasn't happening in the 1990s.

I actually like how the piped-in music keeps the Crazies hyped up. We didn't have that back in the day - IIRC, it wasn't a thing until like 2010 or so. "Everytime We Touch" wasn't even released until 2007. "Shots" came out in 2009.

[uh_no]

You are doing it wrong.

Bacardi 151 + Pepsi One = Pepsi 152

- Take a standard 2L bottle of soda and dump out 750 ML
- Add all the Barcardi
- Find three other morons and drink it as fast as you can, preferably right before being admitted to Cameron
- Hijinks ensue.

IIRC, this concoction was invented when Throaty was on a low-carb diet and tried to figure out the least caloric way to drink prior to the game. We were so very very smart back then.

ah. i see. my math was wrong :)

I suppose it would have been a coke 151 then!

[throatybeard]

Man...you had it good back in the day. I could only get my hands on pepsi 151 :)

Obviously this was before they discontinued Pepsi One. I think I read that somewhere.

[budwom]

It IS nice to read Uncle Terry's letter again...it is most apt that it is referred to as The Avuncular Letter. Can't imagine a university president writing something like that today...it's not what generally emanates
from a prez surrounded by a gaggle of semi paranoid lawyers.

[devil84]

I actually like how the piped-in music keeps the Crazies hyped up. We didn't have that back in the day - IIRC, it wasn't a thing until like 2010 or so. "Everytime We Touch" wasn't even released until 2007. "Shots" came out in 2009.

Does it keep the Crazies hyped? I was watching the crowd as my ears bled and my chest pounded -- it's SO loud. Upstairs was doing much like I was...just watching, as it's just too loud to do much of anything, especially since we can't make it any louder by yelling. Then the piped-in stuff stopped, as did the Crazies. The pep band played the fight song, and they sounded positively muted by comparison from my vantage point in the opposite corner. Only about half the Crazies were clapping along, and only a few of us upstairs. It's the fight song! One of the few that you can get the upstairs doing, too! The crowd was relatively quiet when play started. This happened frequently with the loud recorded music, but not as much when the pep band played the entire timeout. I noted it to the person I was with and we watched it the rest of the game.

If they'd dial back the decibel level, I think it would have a better effect. Being vocal would have an effect on the noise level in Cameron and therefore encourage it, it wouldn't be uncomfortably loud (at least for those of us upstairs -- and organic loud doesn't hurt nearly as much, usually because we're screaming, too), and the pep band would be at about the same level, so sound levels would flow better, requiring human voices to keep the noise up thus ensuring continued involvement, and perhaps getting/keeping the upstairs involved, too (the next complaint after "the Crazies aren't as good as they were in my time"). And if it sounds that loud in the student section, how the heck can you talk to the person next to you to confer on the next heckle?

No, they don't have to stop the piped-in music, though I do really like the student pep band showcased, as they work really hard to learn the music and come out for the games -- not just men's basketball, but women's basketball, football, and other sports. Just lower the volume a bit.

You can say that I'm too old for the noise level (then you don't know me very well), but I'll offer that my two children, one who is still in grad school, both think the piped in music is too loud and takes the crowd out of it, too.

[uh_no]

Does it keep the Crazies hyped? I was watching the crowd as my ears bled and my chest pounded -- it's SO loud.

One of the benefits of getting to stand in the portal is I can pop into the concourse when it is unbearably loud. They really need to measure it....as sometimes it reaches what I'd consider to be serious hearing damage levels. It doesn't seem fixed game to game....like the sound guy just slides it up and says "yeah that sounds about right." Some enterprising attendee is going to turn on a decibel meter during a game, measure how loud the piped in music is, and then sue the university as "hearing damage from too-loud speakers" is almost assuredly not one of the risks one assumes by attending a sporting event.

Anyway, I wish they would be a bit more professional about that, as the way the volume is handled today is amateurish (pun intended)

[Viking Guy]

Lots of great innovations have happened in Cameron in the last 20 years.

Crazies in the mid-late 1990s actually weren't all that great, compared to what came after. It took a LOT to even get the crowd bouncing on defense, which only happened every third game or so. The grad students were basically worthless other than for free throws. Cameron was loud, but not as loud as you hear now.

The tradition of wearing goofy costumes in Cameron didn't really got going until the early part of the 2000s. There were always a few here or there, but not the full-on halloween party you see nowadays. Mostly, people just wore random white t-shirts.

During my (extensive) tenure, I would say that 2003-04 was a peak moment in terms of raw power. As Mullet notes, things also got a lot more coordinated around that time. We would have little meetings with the various crowd leaders before the game and during halftime, planning out what to do. This wasn't happening in the 1990s.

I actually like how the piped-in music keeps the Crazies hyped up. We didn't have that back in the day - IIRC, it wasn't a thing until like 2010 or so. "Everytime We Touch" wasn't even released until 2007. "Shots" came out in 2009.

Something else that didn't uses to happen in the past: Crazies staying after the game to lock arms for Dear Old Duke. That looks awesome on TV.

Also, players didn't use to run press row to high five the Crazies, but that was maybe because they came in from the other side of Cameron before the new locker rooms were built.

[Thurber Whyte]

Yeah, because chanting about sexual assault towards Herman Veal was definitely not inexcusably rude.

I believe it absolutely was inexcusably rude.

I, for one, do not think showering Herman Veal with panties and condoms and holding up signs asking “Did you buy her flowers?” was rude. Herman Veal had been found liable for an attempted rape by the University of Maryland’s judicial board. It got worse when Lefty Driesell contacted the victim and asked her to drop the charges so that Veal could play in the ACC Tournament the year before. If we can make fun of players because of their height, weight, resemblance to Bob Marley or collapsed lung and that is clever, why could the Cameron Crazies or fans in any other arena not question why some rapeo is running around on their court and why someone thought it was a good idea to bring him.

A lot of the collective memory of that event was unfortunately shaped by the Washington Post, which was and still is one of the worst homer newspapers when it comes to Maryland Terrapin sports. Keep in mind that, prior to that incident, Lorenzo Charles had been showered with pizza boxes after being caught stealing pizzas and Chris Washburn had been showered with album covers after stealing a stereo. Most observers thought those episodes were funny. I am sure that they struck a raw nerve with some N.C. State fans, but they, for their part, were capable of recognizing that the underlying conduct was wrongful so there was no great outcry. But not Maryland fans. No, with their combination of exceptionalism and self regard, they took umbrage to the fact that anyone would even question the integrity of one of their players or their team, fairly or otherwise. The Washington Post decided to make, not the sexual assault, mind you, but the Cameron Crazies’ reaction to it a national issue with a column entitled “Majoring in Smart___.” (dewankerized version)

I am glad that someone posted the Avuncular Letter. It does contain sound advice and constructive criticism. However, notice that, even though it was the direct result of the Herman Veal incident, it does not directly reference it nor does it address the conduct associated with it. The letter devotes almost all of its space to the use of obscenities in cheers and decries the poverty of vocabulary and imagination that they represent. My understanding of the history of the Crazies was that they were indeed a lot cruder and rougher around the edges than they were when I was there and that changed because of the letter. However, I contend that the Herman Veal incident was essentially consistent with the letter’s call to be “clever but clean . . . mean but wholesome.” Unless you are offended by ladies’ unmentionables, it was the underlying subject matter that was obscene in the Herman Veal incident and not the words or actions used by the students.

There was another thread that asked when posters first became aware of or started supporting Duke Basketball. At the time, I was a high school junior living in Maryland who had never heard of Duke University and had not even started looking at colleges. I did not follow basketball either. I saw a story about the Herman Veal incident on the local television news complete with video and hand wringing and my reaction was, “That is hilarious!” I did not choose to go to Duke because of the Herman Veal incident, but it probably does illustrate why I fit in there and why I have a preexisting allergy to terping.

Speaking of the Avuncular Letter, I dislike the “you suck” welcome for the reasons stated in the letter. My understanding is that the “Hi, {player name}” chant during the introductions started at the home game following the Herman Veal incident and the Avuncular letter, which happened to be against UNC. During that game the Crazies were pretending to be reformed characters, wearing tin foil halos and holding up signs saying things such as, “A hearty welcome to Coach Smith and his boys!” and also, ironically given subsequent events, “Welcome fellow scholars!” The chant caught on because it was unique and funny at a time when most fan bases simply booed the opposing players as they were announced. That was the way it was when I was there from 1985-1991. (No, I was not especially dim. I stayed on for a masters and a J.D. in Smart___.) The “you suck” part was spontaneously added during a Carolina game a year or so after I left. It was funny, if at all, ONCE. I am sorry that it became a tradition especially given the origins of the “Hi {player name}” chant. It also make us look like, heaven help us, Terrapin fans.

[duke2x]

The YS part has made a comeback in the past couple years. Coach K mostly put an end to it when I was a student. I confess that I enjoyed greeting Dean Smith that way as it was customary to include the opposing coach at the time.

[juise]

Say what you will about the new Crazies, but in my day, we never took on a case of the flu (http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/01/krzyzewskiville-shut-down-indefinitely-due-to-severity-of-flu) in the name of our team.

[dudog84]

I, for one, do not think showering Herman Veal with panties and condoms and holding up signs asking “Did you buy her flowers?” was rude. Herman Veal had been found liable for an attempted rape by the University of Maryland’s judicial board. It got worse when Lefty Driesell contacted the victim and asked her to drop the charges so that Veal could play in the ACC Tournament the year before. If we can make fun of players because of their height, weight, resemblance to Bob Marley or collapsed lung and that is clever, why could the Cameron Crazies or fans in any other arena not question why some rapeo is running around on their court and why someone thought it was a good idea to bring him.

A lot of the collective memory of that event was unfortunately shaped by the Washington Post, which was and still is one of the worst homer newspapers when it comes to Maryland Terrapin sports. Keep in mind that, prior to that incident, Lorenzo Charles had been showered with pizza boxes after being caught stealing pizzas and Chris Washburn had been showered with album covers after stealing a stereo. Most observers thought those episodes were funny. I am sure that they struck a raw nerve with some N.C. State fans, but they, for their part, were capable of recognizing that the underlying conduct was wrongful so there was no great outcry. But not Maryland fans. No, with their combination of exceptionalism and self regard, they took umbrage to the fact that anyone would even question the integrity of one of their players or their team, fairly or otherwise. The Washington Post decided to make, not the sexual assault, mind you, but the Cameron Crazies’ reaction to it a national issue with a column entitled “Majoring in Smart___.” (dewankerized version)

I am glad that someone posted the Avuncular Letter. It does contain sound advice and constructive criticism. However, notice that, even though it was the direct result of the Herman Veal incident, it does not directly reference it nor does it address the conduct associated with it. The letter devotes almost all of its space to the use of obscenities in cheers and decries the poverty of vocabulary and imagination that they represent. My understanding of the history of the Crazies was that they were indeed a lot cruder and rougher around the edges than they were when I was there and that changed because of the letter. However, I contend that the Herman Veal incident was essentially consistent with the letter’s call to be “clever but clean . . . mean but wholesome.” Unless you are offended by ladies’ unmentionables, it was the underlying subject matter that was obscene in the Herman Veal incident and not the words or actions used by the students.

There was another thread that asked when posters first became aware of or started supporting Duke Basketball. At the time, I was a high school junior living in Maryland who had never heard of Duke University and had not even started looking at colleges. I did not follow basketball either. I saw a story about the Herman Veal incident on the local television news complete with video and hand wringing and my reaction was, “That is hilarious!” I did not choose to go to Duke because of the Herman Veal incident, but it probably does illustrate why I fit in there and why I have a preexisting allergy to terping.

Speaking of the Avuncular Letter, I dislike the “you suck” welcome for the reasons stated in the letter. My understanding is that the “Hi, {player name}” chant during the introductions started at the home game following the Herman Veal incident and the Avuncular letter, which happened to be against UNC. During that game the Crazies were pretending to be reformed characters, wearing tin foil halos and holding up signs saying things such as, “A hearty welcome to Coach Smith and his boys!” and also, ironically given subsequent events, “Welcome fellow scholars!” The chant caught on because it was unique and funny at a time when most fan bases simply booed the opposing players as they were announced. That was the way it was when I was there from 1985-1991. (No, I was not especially dim. I stayed on for a masters and a J.D. in Smart___.) The “you suck” part was spontaneously added during a Carolina game a year or so after I left. It was funny, if at all, ONCE. I am sorry that it became a tradition especially given the origins of the “Hi {player name}” chant. It also make us look like, heaven help us, Terrapin fans.

Well stated, must be the lawyer in you. :)

[blazindw]

You gentleman, and I do use the term loosely, amuse me. Do you know what we had in common with the tennis balls? Someone to get it started and coordination. Therein lies the key... me and Viking with Pasha and Blazin (yes... different eras, but we were there a long dang time). Some cooperation and some communication. Talking before the game, dry erase board, whatever.

You know, that and Pepsi 152. That helps with the loudness.

And to Blazin and Native, I had these same conversations with a couple of folks in the basketball office a long time ago. There was interest, and we know most of the same people. Just sayin'...

I’m saying, the Phalanx, Native, weezie and myself? This would be so much fun!

And I agree with you that coordination is essential. That’s why I think we were very successful when I had the bullhorn: you guys would come up to me before a game with an idea, and we would execute it. The undergrads, grads, and even the band were in on some things. How did Speedo Guy’s plan work so well? It was the grad students coming up to me (when I was just a line monitor) and letting us know the plan and what he wanted us to do. The rest is history.

I will say the only thing that I could say has “deteriorated” over the years is the speed of the chants. They would start so fast that by the time you figure out what the chant is, it’s over. Starting much slower will get more involved. It’s something I’m constantly doing when running point for US Soccer fans to get the casuals involved. Having just the student section going nuts is one thing. But, the times Cameron has been the most powerful is when all 9,314 was involved in the action. That power starts with the students and if chants start out slower, that noise will build into the type that makes our team invincible.

[RPS]

I, for one, do not think showering Herman Veal with panties and condoms and holding up signs asking “Did you buy her flowers?” was rude.I loved the "key chain jangle" for State's point guard, Clyde ("the Glide") Austin.

[Nugget]

I, for one, do not think showering Herman Veal with panties and condoms and holding up signs asking “Did you buy her flowers?” was rude. Herman Veal had been found liable for an attempted rape by the University of Maryland’s judicial board. It got worse when Lefty Driesell contacted the victim and asked her to drop the charges so that Veal could play in the ACC Tournament the year before. If we can make fun of players because of their height, weight, resemblance to Bob Marley or collapsed lung and that is clever, why could the Cameron Crazies or fans in any other arena not question why some rapeo is running around on their court and why someone thought it was a good idea to bring him.

A lot of the collective memory of that event was unfortunately shaped by the Washington Post, which was and still is one of the worst homer newspapers when it comes to Maryland Terrapin sports. Keep in mind that, prior to that incident, Lorenzo Charles had been showered with pizza boxes after being caught stealing pizzas and Chris Washburn had been showered with album covers after stealing a stereo. Most observers thought those episodes were funny. I am sure that they struck a raw nerve with some N.C. State fans, but they, for their part, were capable of recognizing that the underlying conduct was wrongful so there was no great outcry. But not Maryland fans. No, with their combination of exceptionalism and self regard, they took umbrage to the fact that anyone would even question the integrity of one of their players or their team, fairly or otherwise. The Washington Post decided to make, not the sexual assault, mind you, but the Cameron Crazies’ reaction to it a national issue with a column entitled “Majoring in Smart___.” (dewankerized version) ...

Speaking of the Avuncular Letter, I dislike the “you suck” welcome for the reasons stated in the letter. My understanding is that the “Hi, {player name}” chant during the introductions started at the home game following the Herman Veal incident and the Avuncular letter, which happened to be against UNC. During that game the Crazies were pretending to be reformed characters, wearing tin foil halos and holding up signs saying things such as, “A hearty welcome to Coach Smith and his boys!” and also, ironically given subsequent events, “Welcome fellow scholars!” The chant caught on because it was unique and funny at a time when most fan bases simply booed the opposing players as they were announced. That was the way it was when I was there from 1985-1991. (No, I was not especially dim. I stayed on for a masters and a J.D. in Smart___.) The “you suck” part was spontaneously added during a Carolina game a year or so after I left. It was funny, if at all, ONCE. I am sorry that it became a tradition especially given the origins of the “Hi {player name}” chant. It also make us look like, heaven help us, Terrapin fans.

I just don't think this is that complicated.

1. Sexual assault = never funny.

2. Petty larceny of pizza = always funny.

3. Larceny of stereo equipment by Chris Washburn = pretty much always funny.

"Hi, x" = mildly amusing.

"Hi, x, you suck" = not funny, purile and wholly unoriginal. Why the Crazies would ever copy Maryland fans is beyond me.

And, let me join the chorus that says more important than the specifics of a given clever or coordinated cheer are that the fans remain loud.

[DukieInKansas]

I loved the "key chain jangle" for State's point guard, Clyde ("the Glide") Austin.

And the follow up article in the Durham Morning Herald that only Duke students would have car keys to rattle. I did have a car key - but the car was in Texas where my Dad drove it. My dorm key, room key, and mailbox key sounded the same with or without a car key. :D

[dudog84]

Thought this was some pretty interesting history, most that I didn't know about. There was actually a pre-Avuncular Letter in '79. It's from the latest issue of Duke Magazine. Why don't we have more politicians like Terry Sanford anymore?

http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/article/uncle-terry-saves-the-day

[dudog84]

At least we can't blame today's loss on the Crazies...can we?