PDA

View Full Version : This week in the ACC: 1/29-2/4



JasonEvans
01-29-2018, 09:59 AM
I'm not going to attempt to imitate PFR's outstanding list of games with KenPom rankings and lines and the such, but I do think we need a thread to start the discussion of this week's games.

Monday
7:00 PM Notre Dame at #4 Duke

Tuesday
7:00 PM #10 North Carolina at #18 Clemson

Wednesday
7:00 PM Pittsburgh at Miami
7:00 PM Louisville at #2 Virginia
8:00 PM Florida State at Wake Forest
8:00 PM Syracuse at Georgia Tech
9:00 PM Virginia Tech at Boston College

Thu/Fri - Dark

Saturday
12:00 PM Notre Dame at NC State
12:00 PM #4 Duke at St. John's
2:00 PM Miami at Virginia Tech
2:00 PM #18 Clemson at Wake Forest
4:00 PM #2 Virginia at Syracuse
4:00 PM Florida State at Louisville
8:00 PM Pittsburgh at #10 North Carolina

JasonEvans
01-29-2018, 10:03 AM
While it is easy to look at the Lou-Virginia game as a huge one for the top of the league (a Virginia win even further cements them as a lock to win the conference regular season), I think the most important game of the week is UNC and Clemson. The winner gets a leg up on being top 4 in the conference and getting the double bye and these are both teams that seem to be struggling. Whichever one gets better quicker figures to be a player alongside Duke and Louisville at the top of the conference.

PackMan97
01-29-2018, 10:17 AM
TEAM +/- CONF OVERALL
Virginia +4 9-0 20-1 @VT, @GT, @WF, @Duke
Louisville +2 6-2 16-5 @ND, @FSU
Duke +2 6-3 18-3 @Pitt, @UM, @WF, (UVa)
Clemson +2 6-3 17-4 @BC, @GT
NC State +1 5-4 15-7 @Pitt, @Cheats, (UM)
Miami +1 4-4 15-5 @NCSU, @Pitt, (Duke)
Florida State 0 5-4 16-5 @VT, (UL)
North Carolina 0 5-4 16-6 @ND, (@NCSU)
Syracuse 0 4-4 15-6 @Pitt, (ND)
Virginia Tech 0 4-4 15-6 @WF, @ND, (FSU, UVa)
Georgia Tech -1 3-5 10-10 @Pitt, (UVa, Clemson)
Boston College -1 3-5 13-8 (Clemson)
Notre Dame -2 3-5 13-8 @Cuse, (UL, Cheats, VT)
Wake Forest -3 1-8 8-13 (Duke, UVa,VT)
Pittsburgh -4 0-9 8-14 (UM, Duke, GT, Syracuse)

CDu
01-29-2018, 10:22 AM
While it is easy to look at the Lou-Virginia game as a huge one for the top of the league (a Virginia win even further cements them as a lock to win the conference regular season), I think the most important game of the week is UNC and Clemson. The winner gets a leg up on being top 4 in the conference and getting the double bye and these are both teams that seem to be struggling. Whichever one gets better quicker figures to be a player alongside Duke and Louisville at the top of the conference.

I agree that the Clemson/UNC game has the potential to be a big game. But I don't think Clemson has a realistic shot at finishing top-4 now that Grantham is out for the year. And I don't think UNC winning puts them in the driver's seat for a top-4 spot. UNC has 4 losses. The other 4-loss teams are FSU, State, Miami, Syracuse, and Va Tech. State actually has a really favorable remaining schedule. They are done with Duke and UVa, and host the remaining matchups with FSU, UNC, and Louisville. Their other games are @Syracuse, @Ga Tech, @Wake, and home vs BC. FSU hosts UVa, then goes to a depleted Notre Dame, hosts Clemson, Pitt, and BC, and goes to State and Clemson. Miami's schedule is also really nice. They host UVa and travel to UNC, but otherwise play manageable games with just @Va Tech and at a healthier ND being the toughest tests.

If Clemson wins (which I don't expect but would certainly enjoy), it probably knocks UNC out of the running for the top-4. Their remaining schedule is brutal: vs Duke twice, @Louisville, vs Miami, @State, @Syracuse, and versus a potentially healthier Notre Dame (could have both Farrell and Harvey back for that game, still no Colson though). I think there are at least 3 more losses on UNC's schedule, which would likely knock them out of top-4 contention.

The Miami at Va Tech game Saturday could be huge. If Miami wins that game, they are in a fairly nice spot for the home stretch.

The battle for the #4 spot could be quite the battle indeed.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-29-2018, 10:43 AM
TEAM +/- CONF OVERALL
Virginia +4 9-0 20-1 @VT, @GT, @WF, @Duke
Louisville +2 6-2 16-5 @ND, @FSU
Duke +2 6-3 18-3 @Pitt, @UM, @WF, (UVa)
Clemson +2 6-3 17-4 @BC, @GT
NC State +1 5-4 15-7 @Pitt, @Cheats, (UM)
Miami +1 4-4 15-5 @NCSU, @Pitt, (Duke)
Florida State 0 5-4 16-5 @VT, (UL)
North Carolina 0 5-4 16-6 @ND, (@NCSU)
Syracuse 0 4-4 15-6 @Pitt, (ND)
Virginia Tech 0 4-4 15-6 @WF, @ND, (FSU, UVa)
Georgia Tech -1 3-5 10-10 @Pitt, (UVa, Clemson)
Boston College -1 3-5 13-8 (Clemson)
Notre Dame -2 3-5 13-8 @Cuse, (UL, Cheats, VT)
Wake Forest -3 1-8 8-13 (Duke, UVa,VT)
Pittsburgh -4 0-9 8-14 (UM, Duke, GT, Syracuse)


Okay, I'll bite. What is the +/- referring to?

JasonEvans
01-29-2018, 10:45 AM
Okay, I'll bite. What is the +/- referring to?

Road wins - home losses.

It is referencing the belief that a road win is worth its weight in gold in the league. It allows us to see who is high in the standings because of impressive road wins and who is up there merely because the schedule has given them more home games at this point. For example, State's 5-4 and Miami's 4-4 are seen as more impressive than Carolina's 5-4 because Carolina's record seems largely built on having more home games.

DarkstarWahoo
01-29-2018, 10:59 AM
TEAM +/- CONF OVERALL
Virginia +4 9-0 20-1 @VT, @GT, @WF, @Duke
Louisville +2 6-2 16-5 @ND, @FSU
Duke +2 6-3 18-3 @Pitt, @UM, @WF, (UVa)
Clemson +2 6-3 17-4 @BC, @GT
NC State +1 5-4 15-7 @Pitt, @Cheats, (UM)
Miami +1 4-4 15-5 @NCSU, @Pitt, (Duke)
Florida State 0 5-4 16-5 @VT, (UL)
North Carolina 0 5-4 16-6 @ND, (@NCSU)
Syracuse 0 4-4 15-6 @Pitt, (ND)
Virginia Tech 0 4-4 15-6 @WF, @ND, (FSU, UVa)
Georgia Tech -1 3-5 10-10 @Pitt, (UVa, Clemson)
Boston College -1 3-5 13-8 (Clemson)
Notre Dame -2 3-5 13-8 @Cuse, (UL, Cheats, VT)
Wake Forest -3 1-8 8-13 (Duke, UVa,VT)
Pittsburgh -4 0-9 8-14 (UM, Duke, GT, Syracuse)


Those numbers don't add up. Your table has 12 road wins and 11 home losses.

EDIT: Found the discrepancy! To no one's surprise, Pitt is even worse than you give them credit(?) for - they're at -5 with a loss to your own Wolfpack left off. Don't be so modest about your team! :D

PackMan97
01-29-2018, 11:06 AM
Those numbers don't add up. Your table has 12 road wins and 11 home losses.

That's awesome! Can you give me your papyapl address and I'll send you a refund :)

I'll find the error later this week and correct it until then...you get what you pay for.

MrPoon
01-29-2018, 11:06 AM
UNC Clemson is the game of the week. Even with the injury, I wouldn’t sleep on Clemson here. I suspect this maybe the game this year that they’d like to win the most because of their poor history with UNC. And as we’ve discussed, this UNC team can be had with a good strong defensive effort. I don’t know what the line will be but I suspect taking Clemson and the points would be a nice play.

UrinalCake
01-29-2018, 11:20 AM
I have a hard time believing Wake is 1-8. They looked pretty decent in the games we’ve played them. Certainly more than one game better than Pitt, who is truly awful.

JasonEvans
01-29-2018, 11:23 AM
I don’t know what the line will be but I suspect taking Clemson and the points would be a nice play.

Oh, I bet Clemson will be giving points, not getting them. Home ACC game against teams seem as fairly even. I suspect Clemson will be about a 2-3 point pick.

CDu
01-29-2018, 11:23 AM
I have a hard time believing Wake is 1-8. They looked pretty decent in the games we’ve played them. Certainly more than one game better than Pitt, who is truly awful.

Wake has had a really brutal schedule. Duke twice, @UNC, @Louisville, @State, home vs UVa, home vs Va Tech. The only "easy" games on their schedule have been @BC (they lost a fairly close one there) and home vs Syracuse (their lone win). They aren't good, but they are probably not quite as bad as their ACC record suggests.

pfrduke
01-29-2018, 11:41 AM
Man, Evans doesn't even give me the morning to get this up before stealing my thunder. Tough crowd. Anyway, here's the more traditional breakdown of the week ahead:

There are 10 teams with 4 or fewer losses through the first half (or not-quite-half) of the season. I think all of them feel like they have good (or at least realistic) tournament chances. The 5 teams with 5 or more losses, on the other hand, are in dire straits. In my view, Pitt, Wake, and Georgia Tech are completely out of it, but BC and Notre Dame have an outside chance of getting back in the mix. I really feel for the Irish - this is not the team they were hoping to roll out this year, and I don't think Gibbs-Pflueger-Djogo-Mooney-Geben is a tourney-worthy lineup, but even so their 5 game losing streak has all been single-digit games, including a double overtime thriller with Louisville.

Monday
[4]Duke (6-3) (-11) hosts [34]Notre Dame (3-5) (7:00, ESPN)

Tuesday
[17]Clemson (6-3) (-2) hosts [13]North Carolina (5-4) (7:00, ESPN)

Wednesday
[2]Virginia (9-0) (-12) hosts [31]Louisville (6-2) (7:00, ESPN2)
[29]Miami (4-4) (-17) hosts [204]Pittsburgh (0-9) (7:00, ACCNE)
[93]Wake Forest (1-8) (+6) hosts [20]Florida State (5-4) (8:00, ACCNE)
[106]Georgia Tech (3-5) (+2) hosts [43]Syracuse (4-4) (8:00, ACCNE)
[80]Boston College (3-5) (+1) hosts [39]Virginia Tech (4-4) (9:00, ACCNE)

Thursday and Friday are dark

Saturday
[4]Duke (-11) at [90]St. John's (12:00, FOX)
[65]NC State (5-4) (-1) hosts [34]Notre Dame (3-5) (12:00, ESPN)
[93]Wake Forest (1-8) (+5) hosts [17]Clemson (6-3) (2:00, ACCNE)
[39]Virginia Tech (4-4) (-2) hosts [29]Miami (4-4) (2:00, ESPN)
[43]Syracuse (4-4) (+6) hosts [2]Virginia (9-0) (4:00, ACCNE)
[31]Louisville (6-2) (-2) hosts [20]Florida State (5-4) (4:00, ACCNE)
[13]North Carolina (5-4) (-22) hosts [204]Pittsburgh (0-9) (8:00, ACCNE)

Sunday we all watch football, commercials, and Justin Timberlake

ACC Non-Conference Record: 151-38
ACC v. Power 6: 29-21

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-29-2018, 11:48 AM
Road wins - home losses.

It is referencing the belief that a road win is worth its weight in gold in the league. It allows us to see who is high in the standings because of impressive road wins and who is up there merely because the schedule has given them more home games at this point. For example, State's 5-4 and Miami's 4-4 are seen as more impressive than Carolina's 5-4 because Carolina's record seems largely built on having more home games.

Excellent, thank you. I agree that this is useful in delineating teams with similar records in the non-round-robin (RIP) Era.

PackMan97
01-29-2018, 11:55 AM
Road wins - home losses.

It is referencing the belief that a road win is worth its weight in gold in the league. It allows us to see who is high in the standings because of impressive road wins and who is up there merely because the schedule has given them more home games at this point. For example, State's 5-4 and Miami's 4-4 are seen as more impressive than Carolina's 5-4 because Carolina's record seems largely built on having more home games.

Or you could look at Wake's schedule and realize two of their three home losses are to two of the best teams in the conference, or you might question whether Clemson can keep it up since their only road wins are @BC and @Wake.

This metric does hide things like BC's and State's home wins against Duke.

English
01-29-2018, 01:45 PM
Man, Evans doesn't even give me the morning to get this up before stealing my thunder. Tough crowd. Anyway, here's the more traditional breakdown of the week ahead:

There are 10 teams with 4 or fewer losses through the first half (or not-quite-half) of the season. I think all of them feel like they have good (or at least realistic) tournament chances. The 5 teams with 5 or more losses, on the other hand, are in dire straits. In my view, Pitt, Wake, and Georgia Tech are completely out of it, but BC and Notre Dame have an outside chance of getting back in the mix. I really feel for the Irish - this is not the team they were hoping to roll out this year, and I don't think Gibbs-Pflueger-Djogo-Mooney-Geben is a tourney-worthy lineup, but even so their 5 game losing streak has all been single-digit games, including a double overtime thriller with Louisville.

Monday
[4]Duke (6-3) (-11) hosts [34]Notre Dame (3-5) (7:00, ESPN)

Tuesday
[17]Clemson (6-3) (-2) hosts [13]North Carolina (5-4) (7:00, ESPN)

Wednesday
[2]Virginia (9-0) (-12) hosts [31]Louisville (6-2) (7:00, ESPN2)
[29]Miami (4-4) (-17) hosts [204]Pittsburgh (0-9) (7:00, ACCNE)
[93]Wake Forest (1-8) (+6) hosts [20]Florida State (5-4) (8:00, ACCNE)
[106]Georgia Tech (3-5) (+2) hosts [43]Syracuse (4-4) (8:00, ACCNE)
[80]Boston College (3-5) (+1) hosts [39]Virginia Tech (4-4) (9:00, ACCNE)

Thursday and Friday are dark

Saturday
[4]Duke (+11) at [90]St. John's (12:00, FOX)
[65]NC State (5-4) (-1) hosts [34]Notre Dame (3-5) (12:00, ESPN)
[93]Wake Forest (1-8) (+5) hosts [17]Clemson (6-3) (2:00, ACCNE)
[39]Virginia Tech (4-4) (-2) hosts [29]Miami (4-4) (2:00, ESPN)
[43]Syracuse (4-4) (+6) hosts [2]Virginia (9-0) (4:00, ACCNE)
[31]Louisville (6-2) (-2) hosts [20]Florida State (5-4) (4:00, ACCNE)
[13]North Carolina (5-4) (-22) hosts [204]Pittsburgh (0-9) (8:00, ACCNE)

Sunday we all watch football, commercials, and Justin Timberlake

ACC Non-Conference Record: 151-38
ACC v. Power 6: 29-21

A couple of things:
1. (Possibly irrelevant to this thread, but I'll mention it anyway) According to TeamRankings.com, BC is RPI no. 73 & NCSU is no. 63. That seems a bit beside the point, and perhaps it is at this stage of the season, but according to the new Selection Committee criteria this year, that would put Duke's road losses in Quad 1 instead of the not-as-easy-to-dismiss Quad 2. If that holds, Duke is currently 4-3 in Quad 1 games, and (obviously) undefeated in the remaining quadrants.
2. I assume you mean Duke is a -11 on Saturday, not a +11, even on StJ's "home court," no? If KenPom is giving Duke 11 points in that game, he should probably revisit his algorithm.

Thanks for the fine work again this week, PFR.

pfrduke
01-29-2018, 02:08 PM
A couple of things:
1. (Possibly irrelevant to this thread, but I'll mention it anyway) According to TeamRankings.com, BC is RPI no. 73 & NCSU is no. 63. That seems a bit beside the point, and perhaps it is at this stage of the season, but according to the new Selection Committee criteria this year, that would put Duke's road losses in Quad 1 instead of the not-as-easy-to-dismiss Quad 2. If that holds, Duke is currently 4-3 in Quad 1 games, and (obviously) undefeated in the remaining quadrants.
2. I assume you mean Duke is a -11 on Saturday, not a +11, even on StJ's "home court," no? If KenPom is giving Duke 11 points in that game, he should probably revisit his algorithm.

Thanks for the fine work again this week, PFR.

Yes, that should be -11. I'll fix - thanks for catching.

CDu
01-29-2018, 02:21 PM
Or you could look at Wake's schedule and realize two of their three home losses are to two of the best teams in the conference, or you might question whether Clemson can keep it up since their only road wins are @BC and @Wake.

This metric does hide things like BC's and State's home wins against Duke.

Yeah, I think Clemson is a pretender for sure. Especially now that Grantham is out. I think they will hang around for another week or two, but fall out in mid/late February..

pfrduke
01-29-2018, 02:37 PM
If Virginia wins on Wednesday, the #1 seed in the ACC Tourney is effectively theirs. They will have a 3-game lead in the loss column over their closest competitors and have beaten them all head-to-head. That means their lead is effectively 4 games, because they'll win any tiebreaker at 15-3.* There would remain the chance to share the regular season title, but barring a complete collapse, UVA will play the early games throughout the weekend in Brooklyn. I can't remember the last time the #1 team in the regular season seemed this clear this far out.

*UVA and Louisville do play twice, so they could theoretically even the head-to-head, but then Louisville would also have to beat Duke to avoid losing the next part of the tiebreaker (UL already lost to Clemson). There could also be other teams that make their way past Duke and Clemson, but I'm going to set those aside as too complicated and speculative at this point.

CDu
01-29-2018, 03:09 PM
How crazy is it that State has a legitimate shot to sweep their regular season matchups with the Triangle ACC teams this year?

jhmoss1812
01-29-2018, 04:32 PM
Not sure how familiar you guys are with this site but this is an excellent resource.

http://www.playoffstatus.com/accbasketball/accstandings.html

CDu
01-29-2018, 04:38 PM
Not sure how familiar you guys are with this site but this is an excellent resource.

http://www.playoffstatus.com/accbasketball/accstandings.html

Cool site, but I can't help but call shenanigans on Clemson as being more likely to finish #3 than Duke. Yes, their schedule is easier, but they also lost their best player. And, yes, I'm sure they are doing it strictly based on past games, so it will take time for the Grantham injury to take effect in the ratings.

Bob Green
01-29-2018, 06:01 PM
Updated Rankings:

2. Virginia
4. Duke
19. North Carolina
20. Clemson

Florida State, Louisville, Miami and N.C. State in "Others receiving votes."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings

Wahoo2000
01-30-2018, 09:47 AM
Updated Rankings:

2. Virginia
4. Duke
19. North Carolina
20. Clemson

Florida State, Louisville, Miami and N.C. State in "Others receiving votes."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings

Really don't understand UNC and Miami not being better. Louisville seems to be rallying a bit after an uneven start to the season (expected given all the offseason turmoil). Really thought the league would be MUCH better in the upper-mid tier of teams about 3-6/7. DEFINITELY thought we'd have 4-5 top 15ish teams for the bulk of the season. In fact, if we (UVA) weren't performing above expectation (unranked, 6th in ACC), the league would look downright weak aside from Duke.

devildeac
01-30-2018, 09:58 AM
Updated Rankings:

2. Virginia
4. Duke
19. North Carolina
20. Clemson

Florida State, Louisville, Miami and N.C. State in "Others receiving votes."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings


Really don't understand UNC and Miami not being better. Louisville seems to be rallying a bit after an uneven start to the season (expected given all the offseason turmoil). Really thought the league would be MUCH better in the upper-mid tier of teams about 3-6/7. DEFINITELY thought we'd have 4-5 top 15ish teams for the bulk of the season. In fact, if we (UVA) weren't performing above expectation (unranked, 6th in ACC), the league would look downright weak aside from Duke.

Some weaknesses are totally acceptable.

JasonEvans
01-30-2018, 10:11 AM
Really don't understand UNC and Miami not being better. Louisville seems to be rallying a bit after an uneven start to the season (expected given all the offseason turmoil). Really thought the league would be MUCH better in the upper-mid tier of teams about 3-6/7. DEFINITELY thought we'd have 4-5 top 15ish teams for the bulk of the season. In fact, if we (UVA) weren't performing above expectation (unranked, 6th in ACC), the league would look downright weak aside from Duke.

Perhaps you will like the Pomeroy rankings better. After all, the human polls are prone to all kinds of bias that can make them somewhat flawed.

Virginia 2
Duke 4
UNC 13
Clemson 17
FSU 20
Miami 29
Louisville 31
Notre Dame 35
Va Tech 38
Syracuse 43

That's 10 teams in NCAA tournament bid territory... and it doesn't even include that NC St club with several really impressive victories and more than an outside shot at playing their way into the dance.

-Jason "I sorta agree that the top third isn't as strong as expected, but I think the middle third and lower-tier (aside from Pitt) is stronger than we had thought" Evans

DukieInBrasil
01-30-2018, 10:13 AM
Really don't understand UNC and Miami not being better. Louisville seems to be rallying a bit after an uneven start to the season (expected given all the offseason turmoil). Really thought the league would be MUCH better in the upper-mid tier of teams about 3-6/7. DEFINITELY thought we'd have 4-5 top 15ish teams for the bulk of the season. In fact, if we (UVA) weren't performing above expectation (unranked, 6th in ACC), the league would look downright weak aside from Duke.

voters are fickle, and the Right Now! hot take view of teams puts them down as they lose conference games. Most of those unranked but receiving votes teams will make their way into the top 25 and/or make it into the tournament field.
Within the ACC, Wake is, to me, the only truly baffling team. I thought they would have won more than 1 conf. game by now. I guess maybe BC is a big surprise, as nobody thought they'd be above the bottom-feeders. ND has suffered major major injury depletions, so their results aren't surprising given those injuries. I guess there's a lot more congestion in the middle than i, or the experts, were predicting, and that is probably bringing the league "down".

CDu
01-30-2018, 10:17 AM
Perhaps you will like the Pomeroy rankings better. After all, the human polls are prone to all kinds of bias that can make them somewhat flawed.

Virginia 2
Duke 4
UNC 13
Clemson 17
FSU 20
Miami 29
Louisville 31
Notre Dame 35
Va Tech 38
Syracuse 43

That's 10 teams in NCAA tournament bid territory... and it doesn't even include that NC St club with several really impressive victories and more than an outside shot at playing their way into the dance.

-Jason "I sorta agree that the top third isn't as strong as expected, but I think the middle third and lower-tier (aside from Pitt) is stronger than we had thought" Evans

I agree. Miami and Louisville have been disappointing, but Duke is about where expected (slightly down, but can't argue with top-5) and UVa is doing better than most thought preseason. UNC is about where I'd have expected, if not a tick better. Clemson is certainly better than expected, as is FSU and Syracuse. Notre Dame is hanging in there despite the injuries, probably about where they should be given the injuries. Va Tech is about where they should be I think.

It's a really strong middle class, just a bit lighter at the top due to Louisville and Miami not being the top-20 teams as expected.

ndkjr70
01-30-2018, 10:17 AM
Is it too early to talk about this? Certainly is. But I think it's a relative probability Duke will finish as the 2 or 3 seed in the ACCT. Which means it's time to start rooting for Notre Dame to finish 8th, 9th, 12th or 13th in the standings. Because, oh boy, I do not want to face Bonzie + Farrell team fighting for their NCAAT life in our first game of the ACC tourney. Noooooo no no noooo thank you.

DukieInBrasil
01-30-2018, 10:20 AM
Perhaps you will like the Pomeroy rankings better. After all, the human polls are prone to all kinds of bias that can make them somewhat flawed.

Virginia 2
Duke 4
UNC 13
Clemson 17
FSU 20
Miami 29
Louisville 31
Notre Dame 35
Va Tech 38
Syracuse 43

That's 10 teams in NCAA tournament bid territory... and it doesn't even include that NC St club with several really impressive victories and more than an outside shot at playing their way into the dance.

-Jason "I sorta agree that the top third isn't as strong as expected, but I think the middle third and lower-tier (aside from Pitt) is stronger than we had thought" Evans

Despite Syracuse's better KP number, i think NCSU has a better chance of making the dance. They have some excellent signature wins, #2 AZ, #2 Duke, @ #10 UNC, to help cover their crappy losses, and really their only truly crappy loss is UNCG. Also, they were without Markell Johnson for a stretch where they lost a couple of games, and missing important players supposedly factors into the decision. What's SYR best win OOC? Maryland? In conference the only notable win is VT.
I know KP doesn't factor into the formula nearly as much (at all?) as RPI, but i don't see why SYR should get in and not NCSU, at this point.
I think the shock value of the bolded part is what is keeping the voting rank #s down, it might take a while for voters to appreciate that the ACC is stronger top to lower third than previously thought.

Troublemaker
01-30-2018, 10:23 AM
Really don't understand UNC and Miami not being better. Louisville seems to be rallying a bit after an uneven start to the season (expected given all the offseason turmoil). Really thought the league would be MUCH better in the upper-mid tier of teams about 3-6/7. DEFINITELY thought we'd have 4-5 top 15ish teams for the bulk of the season. In fact, if we (UVA) weren't performing above expectation (unranked, 6th in ACC), the league would look downright weak aside from Duke.

You mean weak in terms of number of teams ranked in the top-15. Weak overall, I wouldn't understand, because once you get into conference play, results are net neutral. You win, you beat an ACC team. You lose, you lost to an ACC team. As far as I'm concerned, the ACC proved itself by performing well in the non-conference season (capped by the 11-3 record-setting drubbing of the Big 10 in the Challenge) and that's why the ACC is the #2 conference according to kenpom, BPI, RPI, etc.

The fact that once we got into conference play, our teams started to beat each other up, doesn't lower my opinion of the ACC. I think Clemson, NCSU, FSU, Syracuse, and BC being better than expected made it tougher for 4-5 teams to separate towards the top and maintain a national top-15 ranking. Also, Notre Dame also got wrecked by injuries, and I suspect they would've been ranked top-15 in the polls otherwise.

gofurman
01-30-2018, 10:25 AM
Yeah, I think Clemson is a pretender for sure. Especially now that Grantham is out. I think they will hang around for another week or two, but fall out in mid/late February..

I think Clemson is ok. for one, they did lose Grantham - but they have decent guards.. They are my 2nd team.. and tonight I am a big fan !! beat unC ! but I don't think you beat Ohio State, south carolina, Florida, Louisville, at GT, etc without being decent.

Their goal is to make the tourney (haven't done it in 6 years) - I think they make it this year.. finish out .500 in ACC and they are probably in at 21-9 overall. can't see how they don't make the tourney at 21-9. They are a good team.. not great individuals but a bunch of juniors who play well together.. granted loss of Grantham hurts. beat unc ! on another note, the silver lining w Grantham is they now only have one senior.. so the whole team retruns next yr. Should be quality team next yr

DarkstarWahoo
01-30-2018, 10:28 AM
@WUVAnews learned this evening that both Devon Hall & Mamadi Diakite missed practice this afternoon with flu-like symptoms. Unclear at this time if they'll be available for Wed's game against Louisville. De'Andre Hunter missed with ankle injury
#UVA #UVABasketball

8040

WHAT DID YOU GUYS DO?!?!?

CDu
01-30-2018, 10:38 AM
I think Clemson is ok. for one, they did lose Grantham - but they have decent guards.. They are my 2nd team.. and tonight I am a big fan !! beat unC ! but I don't think you beat Ohio State, south carolina, Florida, Louisville, at GT, etc without being decent.

THe team that beat Ohio State, South Carolina, Florida, and Louisville should be favored over UNC at home. But that team isn't going to take the floor.

And I don't think that Clemson is terrible now. I just don't think they are good enough anymore to be considered favorites against UNC.


Their goal is to make the tourney (haven't done it in 6 years) - I think they make it this year.. finish out .500 in ACC and they are probably in at 21-9 overall. can't see how they don't make the tourney at 21-9. They are a good team.. not great individuals but a bunch of juniors who play well together.. granted loss of Grantham hurts. beat unc ! on another note, the silver lining w Grantham is they now only have one senior.. so the whole team retruns next yr. Should be quality team next yr

The needle is definitely pointing up for Clemson, and I certainly hope they can pull it off tonight. Would be a huge step towards making the tournament. I think they do stand a good chance to do so even without Grantham. Definitely pulling for them tonight.

CDu
01-30-2018, 10:41 AM
@WUVAnews learned this evening that both Devon Hall & Mamadi Diakite missed practice this afternoon with flu-like symptoms. Unclear at this time if they'll be available for Wed's game against Louisville. De'Andre Hunter missed with ankle injury
#UVA #UVABasketball

8040

WHAT DID YOU GUYS DO?!?!?

We sent O'Connell out to infect your team. Mwahahahahaha!!!

Seriously though, that's tough news. Hopefully they recover in time to play and play well tomorrow. It's an important game both for ACC standings and for #1 seed in East or South. If the Hoos lose, Duke could sneak back into the discussion. Would take a LOT of work to pull it off, including winning the ACC tourney and probably needing to go close to (if not actually) unbeaten the rest of the way.

Still, I hate to hear anyone is not at full strength due to illness/injury.

devildeac
01-30-2018, 10:43 AM
@WUVAnews learned this evening that both Devon Hall & Mamadi Diakite missed practice this afternoon with flu-like symptoms. Unclear at this time if they'll be available for Wed's game against Louisville. De'Andre Hunter missed with ankle injury
#UVA #UVABasketball

8040

WHAT DID YOU GUYS DO?!?!?

Duke curse. :rolleyes:

sagegrouse
01-30-2018, 10:48 AM
You mean weak in terms of number of teams ranked in the top-15. Weak overall, I wouldn't understand, because once you get into conference play, results are net neutral. You win, you beat an ACC team. You lose, you lost to an ACC team.
As someone :rolleyes: once said, "If the Tournament Selection Committee is relying on results in January, February and March -- it is on a fool's errand." The games are mostly within conferences, and there is no way to recalibrate the conferences. Moreover, results in November and December may not be indicative of team strength in March.

Kindly,
Sage
'The only exception is the Big 12-SEC challenge, which was last week'

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-30-2018, 10:49 AM
Seems likely Duke has a higher seed in the Acc tourney than the NCAA. I guess that happens frequently. Pretty telling, I suppose, in regards to conference strength.

godins
01-30-2018, 10:53 AM
Is it too early to talk about this? Certainly is. But I think it's a relative probability Duke will finish as the 2 or 3 seed in the ACCT. Which means it's time to start rooting for Notre Dame to finish 8th, 9th, 12th or 13th in the standings. Because, oh boy, I do not want to face Bonzie + Farrell team fighting for their NCAAT life in our first game of the ACC tourney. Noooooo no no noooo thank you.

Never too early to talk about seeding! However, I don't agree with you. First, if ND is seeded 10-13 in the ACC they won't be making it to the NCAA -- period. No NCAA life to fight for. Bonzie's recovery timeline has him coming back by the ACCT if things go well. Does he even play if ND is out of contention? If he does, how effective would he be playing us on day 3 of a back-to-back-to-back?

They're 3-6 in ACC play and 13-9 overall with an RPI of 76. Their best win was over Wichita State when everyone was healthy (before Thanksgiving). ND has remaining games @ NC State (without Farrell?), UNC (Harvey should be back), and UVA. Safe to say there are at least two more losses there. They host Fla. State (without Harvey) and Miami (with Harvey) in South Bend. They have games home and away with BC, at Wake, and they host Pitt. I think they finish the year AT BEST 9-9, and likely worse. Does the committee, even with the injuries, accept a 13 or 14 loss ND team with an RPI over 50? I'm skeptical.

I know Bonzie's had our number over the years. But unless ND is able to put the wheels back on the bus -- they've lost 6 in a row, mind you -- I don't think we see him again this year. And even if we do I like our chances. We're really rolling right now and will only continue to improve.

UrinalCake
01-30-2018, 10:55 AM
Seriously though, that's tough news. Hopefully they recover in time to play and play well tomorrow. It's an important game both for ACC standings and for #1 seed in East or South. If the Hoos lose, Duke could sneak back into the discussion. Would take a LOT of work to pull it off, including winning the ACC tourney and probably needing to go close to (if not actually) unbeaten the rest of the way.

At this point do we root against UVA since they're in first place, or do we root against Louisville since we're actually competing with them for second in the conference? If Louisville wins we remain in third place.

UrinalCake
01-30-2018, 10:57 AM
if ND is seeded 10-13 in the ACC they won't be making it to the NCAA -- period. No NCAA life to fight for.

Unless they win the ACC Tournament, which they would probably feel like they have a puncher's chance at doing if they are at full strength by then.

Troublemaker
01-30-2018, 11:10 AM
At this point do we root against UVA since they're in first place, or do we root against Louisville since we're actually competing with them for second in the conference? If Louisville wins we remain in third place.

We have Louisville at Cameron later on in the season. I'm not going to spend any energy rooting against them.

godins
01-30-2018, 11:33 AM
Unless they win the ACC Tournament, which they would probably feel like they have a puncher's chance at doing if they are at full strength by then.

It's certainly possible, but being seeded 10-15 would mean 5 games in 5 days. Other than the 2011 UConn team, has any team gotten close to accomplishing that?

English
01-30-2018, 11:33 AM
We have a bit of a news explosion within the ACC today:

- Jalek Felton suspended from UNC
- Bruce Brown to have foot surgery, out ~6wks
- Mark Donnal (Clemson reserve) out tonight with a concussion
- The UVA flu stuff

Yikes. Everyone stay indoors!

DukieInBrasil
01-30-2018, 11:49 AM
At this point do we root against UVA since they're in first place, or do we root against Louisville since we're actually competing with them for second in the conference? If Louisville wins we remain in third place.

but we still have to play Loovuhl and if we beat them, we would be tied and have the tie-breaker due to winning the head to head match up. I honestly don't think we can catch UVA, but they have to lose at least one (and then 3 more) for us to do so. My vote is to pull for Loovuhl to win, withe hope that we beat them head to head.

Spanarkel
01-30-2018, 12:00 PM
I agree. Miami and Louisville have been disappointing, but Duke is about where expected (slightly down, but can't argue with top-5) and UVa is doing better than most thought preseason. UNC is about where I'd have expected, if not a tick better. Clemson is certainly better than expected, as is FSU and Syracuse. Notre Dame is hanging in there despite the injuries, probably about where they should be given the injuries. Va Tech is about where they should be I think.

It's a really strong middle class, just a bit lighter at the top due to Louisville and Miami not being the top-20 teams as expected.

Notre Dame, with Colson/Farrell/Harvey playing at full strength in December, lost to Ball State(Kenpom 178)in South Bend and IU(which you have described on DBR as a horrible or terrible team)in Indy. The Irish weren't exactly a juggernaut before the slew of injuries.

ncexnyc
01-30-2018, 12:06 PM
We have a bit of a news explosion within the ACC today:

- Jalek Felton suspended from UNC
- Bruce Brown to have foot surgery, out ~6wks
- Mark Donnal (Clemson reserve) out tonight with a concussion
- The UVA flu stuff

Yikes. Everyone stay indoors!

Well you know what that means for Clemson tonight. Elijah Thomas will have his second foul before 5 minutes are played in tonight's game against the Cheats.

JasonEvans
01-30-2018, 12:34 PM
Don't sleep on the Bruce Brown news. He's Miami's best player (leads team in rebounds, assists, and steals while being 2nd in points) even if his shooting has been off this year compared to his freshman campaign. He's out 6 weeks, which means he maybe plays in the ACC tourney. This is significant news in the middle/top of the ACC race.

Miami, Clemson, and ND all playing without their best player at this point. Whew, the other teams in the upper-middle ACC may have caught a real break!

CDu
01-30-2018, 12:41 PM
At this point do we root against UVA since they're in first place, or do we root against Louisville since we're actually competing with them for second in the conference? If Louisville wins we remain in third place.

I think we root against UVa, as we still control our own destiny with Louisville. That, and finishing 2nd or 3rd in the ACC doesn't make a ton of difference to me.

CDu
01-30-2018, 12:42 PM
Don't sleep on the Bruce Brown news. He's Miami's best player (leads team in rebounds, assists, and steals while being 2nd in points) even if his shooting has been off this year compared to his freshman campaign. He's out 6 weeks, which means he maybe plays in the ACC tourney. This is significant news in the middle/top of the ACC race.

Miami, Clemson, and ND all playing without their best player at this point. Whew, the other teams in the upper-middle ACC may have caught a real break!

Oh, wow, that is a tough break. Really hurts them from a depth perspective, and he was still their best player.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-30-2018, 02:34 PM
Never too early to talk about seeding! However, I don't agree with you. First, if ND is seeded 10-13 in the ACC they won't be making it to the NCAA -- period. No NCAA life to fight for. Bonzie's recovery timeline has him coming back by the ACCT if things go well. Does he even play if ND is out of contention?

Everything I know about Wells and all his body language last night suggests he will be back as soon as he is able.

Why would he come back for this season only to not come back for March, if cleared medically?

Hate it for the kid, truly.

tbyers11
01-30-2018, 02:45 PM
Everything I know about Wells and all his body language last night suggests he will be back as soon as he is able.

Why would he come back for this season only to not come back for March, if cleared medically?

Hate it for the kid, truly.

Holy basketball Freudian slip Batman

Bonzi Wells
8043
Bonzie Colson
8044

Although Wells was a SG and Colson is a PF they are both the same height. If Colson started rocking a headband I might even do a double take :D

godins
01-30-2018, 02:58 PM
Everything I know about Wells and all his body language last night suggests he will be back as soon as he is able.

Why would he come back for this season only to not come back for March, if cleared medically?

Hate it for the kid, truly.

Foot injuries are tricky, something we know all-too-well here on DBR. I don't see Brey rushing Bonzie back if he's at all worried about the risk of re-injury. Brey even said that himself back in January. It sounds like Brey is thinking about Bonzie's career, as any good coach would: https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2018-01-02/notre-dame-coach-mike-brey-we-wont-rush-bonzie-colson-back

With an 8 week recovery timeline he'd be back just in time for the ACCT. Any later and his senior season, lamentably, will have been for naught.

DarkstarWahoo
01-30-2018, 03:02 PM
Holy basketball Freudian slip Batman

Bonzi Wells
8043
Bonzie Colson
8044

Although Wells was a SG and Colson is a PF they are both the same height. If Colson started rocking a headband I might even do a double take :D

Also not to be confused with his contemporary, Bubba Wells:

8045

This has been "LET'S REMEMBER SOME GUYS."

Rich
01-30-2018, 03:42 PM
Also not to be confused with his contemporary, Bubba Wells:

8045

This has been "LET'S REMEMBER SOME GUYS."

8049

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-30-2018, 04:02 PM
Holy basketball Freudian slip Batman

Bonzi Wells
8043
Bonzie Colson
8044

Although Wells was a SG and Colson is a PF they are both the same height. If Colson started rocking a headband I might even do a double take :D

Busted.

OldPhiKap
01-30-2018, 06:43 PM
We have a bit of a news explosion within the ACC today:

- Jalek Felton suspended from UNC
- Bruce Brown to have foot surgery, out ~6wks
- Mark Donnal (Clemson reserve) out tonight with a concussion
- The UVA flu stuff

Yikes. Everyone stay indoors!

“The State of the Conference is unwell”

kshepinthehouse
01-30-2018, 06:58 PM
What do you it’s think of the State vs Notre Dame game? On paper the Pack should win by double digits vs a depleted team. That ND bunch that is left sure is scrappy though.

UrinalCake
01-30-2018, 07:56 PM
Clemson is putting the hurt on UNC, up 16 at half after drilling a long three at the buzzer. Basically everything has gone wrong for the CHeats - Pinson left the game after landing hard when he was pushed going up for a rebound (a really tough break for them, that was a very physical and borderline dirty play). They look lost on offense and their defense is abysmal, probably worse than ours was at the start of the conference season.

dukelifer
01-30-2018, 08:09 PM
Clemson is putting the hurt on UNC, up 16 at half after drilling a long three at the buzzer. Basically everything has gone wrong for the CHeats - Pinson left the game after landing hard when he was pushed going up for a rebound (a really tough break for them, that was a very physical and borderline dirty play). They look lost on offense and their defense is abysmal, probably worse than ours was at the start of the conference season.

Tough place to play when things go south. I remember Duke getting blown out down there. Losing Pinson is a big deal for them and Clemson has been on fire from deep. Let's see if Clemson can close the deal.

JasonEvans
01-30-2018, 08:10 PM
Roy Williams says Pinson will not return. He hurt his shoulder and his leg.

OldPhiKap
01-30-2018, 08:29 PM
Roy Williams says Pinson will not return. He hurt his shoulder and his leg.

Hope it is nothing serious. Hate to see kids hurt, even those down there.

dukelifer
01-30-2018, 08:29 PM
Tough place to play when things go south. I remember Duke getting blown out down there. Losing Pinson is a big deal for them and Clemson has been on fire from deep. Let's see if Clemson can close the deal.

Looks like Clemson is Clemsoning against the Heels.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-30-2018, 08:51 PM
Hope it is nothing serious. Hate to see kids hurt, even those down there.

Aren't we supposed to make witty jokes about UNC classes whenever a Target Heel player is mentioned?

Hate injuries in any sport. Especially to Accidents rivals.

UrinalCake
01-30-2018, 09:04 PM
Looks like Clemson is Clemsoning against the Heels.

CHeats played well in the second half and made it a game. Berry and Johnson were pretty much the entire offense. But it looks like Clemson will hold on.

arnie
01-30-2018, 09:07 PM
Heels go to 5-5. I see only two sure wins left, Pitt and ND at home - all other games are tough. Getting way too ahead of myself, but would 7-11 keep them out of tourney? One can hope.

DukieInBrasil
01-30-2018, 09:08 PM
CHeats played well in the second half and made it a game. Berry and Johnson were pretty much the entire offense. But it looks like Clemson will hold on.
and they did, with some remarkably clutch play at the end, while UNCheaters made some mistakes. Berry though could do no wrong, he was ice at the end.

DukieInKansas
01-30-2018, 09:13 PM
Roy Williams says Pinson will not return. He hurt his shoulder and his leg.

I hope it isn't too serious and that he heals quickly and completely. (And that we beat them by 30 both times we play them in the regular season - and by 50 if we play them in any tournament.)

devildeac
01-30-2018, 09:14 PM
@moonpie: cheats looked good-again

Troublemaker
01-30-2018, 09:21 PM
Your defense also stunk, you know?

In conference games only, UNC is 3rd in the conference in offense at a healthy 110 offensive efficiency (which means you score 1.1 points a possession, as a reminder). But, UNC is only 9th in the conference in defense with a 105 efficiency. (Duke is 7th in the conference on defense with a 102 efficiency).

The side of the ball to most focus on is probably defense.

Wheat, if you saw the beginning of the broadcast, you read what Roy thinks of your defense. About as bad as he's ever coached, he said. You should probably stop ranting about the offense and focus on the defensive side of the ball. That is why you're losing ACC games right now, not the 3rd-best offense in league games.

PackMan97
01-30-2018, 09:23 PM
Looks like Clemson is Clemsoning against the Heels.

Teams simply aren't afraid of Carolina any longer. It's almost as if they know the "Carolina Way" and the swagger they had on the court was complete BS. When it's come down to single possessions at the end of the game, Carolina is currently 2-4 on the season beating only Wake and ND in close games...dropping to Wofford, FSU, State and now Clemson. I don't think it was Clemson that was the fraud at the top of the ACC standings, it was Carolina.


I hope it isn't too serious and that he heals quickly and completely.

Let's not get hasty. We wouldn't want him to rush his recovery and make an injury worse.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-30-2018, 09:52 PM
Tough loss for for the Heels, but that's also a tough environment on the road against a top 20 team, so it's not like it's a surprise.

The optimistic take is, the last two games, it's taken some unbelievabe shooting to get a win against the Heels. Both State and Clemson shot 15-30 from deep. Sure, some were off defensive mistakes, but many were just great shooting by the offense. These teams won those games more than UNC lost them so let's give credit where credit is due.

This was a physical game and I thought UNC handled it well, especially without Pinson. They didn't get frustrated by the contact and kept their composure and focus to stay in it. Many teams would have folded with how well Clemson shot it and playing so tough. I liked UNC's discipline/composure and I think it shows how well they are coached.

Adding to the frustration of teams shooting it so well the past few games, is the breaks you need to get to win on the road and in the closing minutes of tight ones which UNC just hasn't found lately.

You not only have to make plays, you've got to finish them. Manley got the big seal against State, then threw it away. And the perfectly timed trap with the score tied tonight where Berry gets a steal, but can't quite control it and losses the ball out of bounds. Big, key moments, that they didn't finish.

And yes, there were plenty of mistakes too that keep them in a hole. Like fouling 3 point shooters. UNC has to limit their mistakes better.

But bottom line, Clemson played well and earned it, not many teams will win at Littlejohn when they play like that...congrats to them tonight.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-30-2018, 09:56 PM
Wheat, if you saw the beginning of the broadcast, you read what Roy thinks of your defense. About as bad as he's ever coached, he said. You should probably stop ranting about the offense and focus on the defensive side of the ball. That is why you're losing ACC games right now, not the 3rd-best offense in league games.

There is no doubt, the defense needs to get better.

-jk
01-30-2018, 10:19 PM
There is no doubt, the defense needs to get better.

Ol' Roy's been studying tape of K's games this season, but but hasn't caught up yet.

-jk

ndkjr70
01-30-2018, 10:19 PM
Other than the obvious smiling and fistbumping in my household after the game tonight, I have one major takeaway from the UNC game:

Boy I wish Pitt pushed harder to block that transfer. This UNC team would be NIT bound without Cam. Dude is a stud.

duketaylor
01-30-2018, 10:26 PM
Vandy is leading at UK, was 14, now 9, in 2nd half. Vandy out hustling and out playing Cats, so far. Go 'Dores!!

UrinalCake
01-30-2018, 10:30 PM
Boy I wish Pitt pushed harder to block that transfer. This UNC team would be NIT bound without Cam. Dude is a stud.

Totally agree. Pitt would actually have a non-zero chance at pulling out their first ACC win this weekend against the CHeats if not for Johnson.

PackMan97
01-30-2018, 11:12 PM
Boy I wish Pitt pushed harder to block that transfer. This UNC team would be NIT bound without Cam. Dude is a stud.

Johnson was a graduate transfer. I'm not sure there is anything Pitt could have really done other than look like complete arses and then eventually lose anyways.

Troublemaker
01-31-2018, 07:19 AM
Johnson was a graduate transfer. I'm not sure there is anything Pitt could have really done other than look like complete arses and then eventually lose anyways.

Oh, Pitt held all the cards, actually, but lost the PR battle. Johnson would not have had to request permission from Pitt to attend UNC had he not signed a contract (the NLI) with Pitt in which one of the provisions was that Pitt could nix certain transfer destinations. It's fairly common to block intra-conference transfers, for example, and it doesn't matter that Johnson was a graduate. For example, Coach Beilein at Michigan had also blocked graduate transfer Spike Albrecht from transferring to Purdue (http://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/big-ten/michigans-john-beilein-lifts-restrictions-allowing-spike-albrecht-transfer-within-big-ten) until Beilein also lost the PR battle there. To summarize, contractually Pitt (and Michigan) could do what they were doing, but eventually the PR heat got to them. Whether those results are just or not, I make no judgement. Just saying, contracts matter.

PackMan97
01-31-2018, 08:31 AM
Oh, Pitt held all the cards, actually, but lost the PR battle. Johnson would not have had to request permission from Pitt to attend UNC had he not signed a contract (the NLI) with Pitt in which one of the provisions was that Pitt could nix certain transfer destinations. It's fairly common to block intra-conference transfers, for example, and it doesn't matter that Johnson was a graduate. For example, Coach Beilein at Michigan had also blocked graduate transfer Spike Albrecht from transferring to Purdue (http://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/big-ten/michigans-john-beilein-lifts-restrictions-allowing-spike-albrecht-transfer-within-big-ten) until Beilein also lost the PR battle there. To summarize, contractually Pitt (and Michigan) could do what they were doing, but eventually the PR heat got to them. Whether those results are just or not, I make no judgement. Just saying, contracts matter.

I don't know that anyone wants to press the matter in court. Therefore the court of public opinion is where the case was adjusted and the schools lost.

Trying to enforce a non-compete clause against an unpaid non-employee. There are many ways that case would end, I doubt any of them are in favor of the school.

Neals384
01-31-2018, 10:05 AM
JD is apparently stuck in some awful time warp, as he wrote on the DBR front page


Drew ended up with 27 points, second only to Cameron Johnson’s 32. The rest of the team combined for just 19 points.

godins
01-31-2018, 10:27 AM
JD is apparently stuck in some awful time warp, as he wrote on the DBR front page

Did Larry Drew II even score 27 total points at UNC?

ETA: Apparently he had 461 career points at UNC. Only 48 in the NBA, though.

Troublemaker
01-31-2018, 10:44 AM
I don't know that anyone wants to press the matter in court. Therefore the court of public opinion is where the case was adjusted and the schools lost.

Trying to enforce a non-compete clause against an unpaid non-employee. There are many ways that case would end, I doubt any of them are in favor of the school.

Maybe, but that means ndkjr70 was correct when he/she wrote that Pitt could've pushed harder. You had seemed to disagree with that notion. Keep in mind that intraconference transfers really ARE rare; transfer restrictions get enforced all the time. BTW, IF things had to proceed to trial, I generally would think it better to be on the side of the contract. Pitt could've won.

Furthermore, I think Pitt could've won the PR battle. As it was, they were a non-participant, and this is where they could've pushed harder. Pitt's AD is Heather Lyke, who at the time had just started at Pitt a couple of months prior (http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/Pitt/2017/03/19/Heather-Lyke-Pitt-new-AD-Pittsburgh-Panthers-athletic-director-Eastern-Michigan/stories/201703190193). Pitt should've reached out to some friendly beat writer and suggested to them that the reason UNC was going so hard after an intraconference transfer was because Bubba and Roy felt they could bully a female AD into submission. It was a pure power play by UNC, as the norm is that intraconference transfers don't occur. Why was Pitt being forced to submit to UNC's will? Etc, etc. Anyway, let that angle trickle out into the national consciousness, and see where you stand afterwards. The Pitt community might've been galvanized to rally around Lyke as well.

Is that fighting dirty? Maybe, but most PR battles are like that. UNC was fighting dirty when Bubba and Roy pretended to care about Johnson's education. You of all people would agree with that, PM97.

thedukelamere
01-31-2018, 10:51 AM
Just saw the video and didn't know where to put this; prayers and speedy recovery to Theo... I hope they are at full strength next week.

The play on which he was hurt is one of my biggest fears due of how often WCJr and MB3 get undercut while rebounding over smaller opponents.

English
01-31-2018, 10:55 AM
Just saw the video and didn't know where to put this; prayers and speedy recovery to Theo... I hope they are at full strength next week.

The play on which he was hurt is one of my biggest fears due of how often WCJr and MB3 get undercut while rebounding over smaller opponents.

Samesies, but I can't imagine that full strength to include Jalek Felton. I'm not sure what Seventh Woods' recovery timetable looks like, either. Down Pinson, Woods, and Felton, that *ahem* other team is really, REALLY thin in the backcourt. We could see Andrew Platek for 10-12min...shudder.

Either way, full strength or otherwise, it will NOT be a top-25 matchup. Bummer, kinda.

jjasper0729
01-31-2018, 11:11 AM
The play on which he was hurt is one of my biggest fears due of how often WCJr and MB3 get undercut while rebounding over smaller opponents.

This was happening a lot against UVA. Should have been fouls called but weren't and then the possibility of injury

DukieInBrasil
01-31-2018, 11:12 AM
Did Larry Drew II even score 27 total points at UNC?

ETA: Apparently he had 461 career points at UNC. Only 48 in the NBA, though.

he played in the NBA? Wonders never cease.

PackMan97
01-31-2018, 11:15 AM
Is that fighting dirty? Maybe, but most PR battles are like that. UNC was fighting dirty when Bubba and Roy pretended to care about Johnson's education. You of all people would agree with that, PM97.

I do agree that UNC was fighting dirty, and would not be surprised if they tampered with Johnson. I think we should disband the entire athletic department, university and town!

In a suprising turn of events, I choose to side with the individual athlete. While I am admitedly partisian, there are actually some issues that I'm even willing to ignore the name of the school involved. In this case, I side with the athlete that wants to leave one school to play for another. In no other academic setting is this type of "block allowed". Universities can't (legally) block employes from going from UNC to Duke (I know, pending court case on non-poaching agreement), they can't stop regular students from transferring, they can't stop staff from transferring. In this case, they shouldn't be able to stop atheltes from transferring.

So, that's that. As I feel like I've proven on this board (and the mods will agree), I'm more than happy to turn any little issue from UNC into a huge recount of the past 7 years of scandals...but in this case, they did the right thing (even if it were for the wrong reasons).

DukieInBrasil
01-31-2018, 11:15 AM
This was happening a lot against UVA. Should have been fouls called but weren't and then the possibility of injury

not just undercutting on rebounds, but on entry passes too. And the push in the back, particularly on Bagley, caused several poor entry passes which led to turnovers. And i don't remember a single one being called a foul, even though the defender pushed an airborne player in the back and causing a bad play. How that is not a foul is beyond me and must be part of UVA's brilliance on defense.

DukieInBrasil
01-31-2018, 11:20 AM
I do agree that UNC was fighting dirty, and would not be surprised if they tampered with Johnson. I think we should disband the entire athletic department, university and town!


Hey now, Chapel Hill is a lovely place, in much the same way that Athens is a nice town (home of UGA). If one were to shut down the University on academic grounds, CH would still be a moderately interesting place if for no other reason than it's proximity to Raleigh, Durham and Cary, which all have top-flight academic/intellectual institutions. Take UGA out of Athens and it turns into a big nothingburger town, as it's closest neighbors are Winterville, Watkinsville and Winder (the 3 Ws!!!), all of which are actual towns only b/c UGA faculty want cheaper property taxes.

DarkstarWahoo
01-31-2018, 11:21 AM
This was happening a lot against UVA. Should have been fouls called but weren't and then the possibility of injury

They got DeAndre Hunter for a foul on a play exactly like you describe. He had position and Carter (I think) jumped up, and Hunter kept moving backwards and under him. And it was a good call. It happened mostly because the shot didn't hit the rim and the Duke player jumped at a time Hunter wasn't expecting, but Hunter moved into his space.

Hunter, by the way, was undercut on a 3-point attempt in the first half with no foul called. DeLaurier, I think. He said that's when he first injured his ankle and that he aggravated it on the layup when he went out for good.

PackMan97
01-31-2018, 11:23 AM
Hey now, Chapel Hill is a lovely place, in much the same way that Athens is a nice town (home of UGA). If one were to shut down the University on academic grounds, CH would still be a moderately interesting place if for no other reason than it's proximity to Raleigh, Durham and Cary, which all have top-flight academic/intellectual institutions. Take UGA out of Athens and it turns into a big nothingburger town, as it's closest neighbors are Winterville, Watkinsville and Winder (the 3 Ws!!!), all of which are actual towns only b/c UGA faculty want cheaper property taxes.

We will just have to agree to disagree. The only good thing to come out of Chapel Hill is Highway 54 East to Raleigh. :)

devildeac
01-31-2018, 11:25 AM
We will just have to agree to disagree. The only good thing to come out of Chapel Hill is Highway 54 East to Raleigh. :)

Respectfully disagree. 15-501 North to Derm is a nice exit strategy, too. ;)

DukieInBrasil
01-31-2018, 11:26 AM
They got DeAndre Hunter for a foul on a play exactly like you describe. He had position and Carter (I think) jumped up, and Hunter kept moving backwards and under him. And it was a good call. It happened mostly because the shot didn't hit the rim and the Duke player jumped at a time Hunter wasn't expecting, but Hunter moved into his space.

Hunter, by the way, was undercut on a 3-point attempt in the first half with no foul called. DeLaurier, I think. He said that's when he first injured his ankle and that he aggravated it on the layup when he went out for good.

Stepping under shooters is one of my most hated things in basketball, and should always be called a foul. I think i remember that play and wondered "why wasn't a foul called?" at the time.

PackMan97
01-31-2018, 11:28 AM
Respectfully disagree. 15-501 North to Derm is a nice exit strategy, too. ;)

only problem there is that you are in Durham. Out of the frying pan, into the firing line.

DarkstarWahoo
01-31-2018, 11:28 AM
Stepping under shooters is one of my most hated things in basketball, and should always be called a foul. I think i remember that play and wondered "why wasn't a foul called?" at the time.

To be clear, I don't think he meant to do it. But that should be an automatic foul. Didn't they make it an automatic flagrant in the NBA after Kawhi Leonard got hurt?

devildeac
01-31-2018, 11:36 AM
Stepping under shooters is one of my most hated things in basketball, and should always be called a foul. I think i remember that play and wondered "why wasn't a foul called?" at the time.

Did dean "invent" that, too?

Asking for a friend.

thedukelamere
01-31-2018, 11:50 AM
Hunter, by the way, was undercut on a 3-point attempt in the first half with no foul called. DeLaurier, I think. He said that's when he first injured his ankle and that he aggravated it on the layup when he went out for good.

Agreed, I think it should always be called when the defender/rebounder enters the "cylinder" of the opposing player. There's a fine line between a "hold your ground" box out and a "drive the guy on your back into the stands" box out, which, through my blue-tinted lenses, the Hoos flirted with almost every time a shot went up. I can appreciate the aggressiveness, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see someone like TV Teddy knock UVA out of the dance by fouling out half the team.

CDu
01-31-2018, 12:15 PM
To be clear, I don't think he meant to do it. But that should be an automatic foul. Didn't they make it an automatic flagrant in the NBA after Kawhi Leonard got hurt?

It's tricky. If the shooter is moving forward on his release, the defender has right to position too. If the shooter goes straight up or even fades away, then yes, I think it should be a foul.

That's not a commentary on the Hunter injury at all. I don't recall the specifics of the play. It could have fallen in either category as far as I know.

UrinalCake
01-31-2018, 12:24 PM
I think it’s reasonable that Pitt didn’t want Johnson to go to a conference opponent who they’ll face the following year. When they play each other this weekend, Johnson will have been able to give Roy Pitt’s entire playbook. Now maybe you think who cares, Pitt is terrible and has no chance anyways, but they deserve a chance to compete. It’s why intra-conference transfers are rare and are generally blocked. Nobody is saying Johnson shouldn’t be able to change schools. It’s just common practice that he should be restricted to the 340-odd schools that are not in the ACC.

Also, non-compete clauses are common in other areas of life. If you work for Coke, you can’t just quit and get a job at Pepsi.

cato
01-31-2018, 12:36 PM
Also, non-compete clauses are common in other areas of life. If you work for Coke, you can’t just quit and get a job at Pepsi.

And unenforceable in CA (except in certain circumstances which would not apply).

By the way, are you aware of non-compete clauses in any contracts other than employment contracts?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-31-2018, 12:37 PM
I think it’s reasonable that Pitt didn’t want Johnson to go to a conference opponent who they’ll face the following year. When they play each other this weekend, Johnson will have been able to give Roy Pitt’s entire playbook. Now maybe you think who cares, Pitt is terrible and has no chance anyways, but they deserve a chance to compete. It’s why intra-conference transfers are rare and are generally blocked. Nobody is saying Johnson shouldn’t be able to change schools. It’s just common practice that he should be restricted to the 340-odd schools that are not in the ACC.

Also, non-compete clauses are common in other areas of life. If you work for Coke, you can’t just quit and get a job at Pepsi.

I have always and will continue to find it petty. You are talking about restricting a young man looking to get an advanced degree and keep playing amateur sports, not a job-hopping money-grubbing dissatisfied employee. I see one year of a young person's personal, academic, and vocational development as far more important than a potential competitive advantage in a collegiate sports contest.

(insert obligatory UNC "academics" joke, hahaha)

CDu
01-31-2018, 12:48 PM
I have always and will continue to find it petty. You are talking about restricting a young man looking to get an advanced degree and keep playing amateur sports, not a job-hopping money-grubbing dissatisfied employee. I see one year of a young person's personal, academic, and vocational development as far more important than a potential competitive advantage in a collegiate sports contest.

(insert obligatory UNC "academics" joke, hahaha)

Yeah, I have less problem with restricting transfers on kids who are still working towards their degree. It's a bit icky, but I get it. But I have a real issue with schools being able to restrict someone who has graduated already.

brlftz
01-31-2018, 01:15 PM
Yeah, I have less problem with restricting transfers on kids who are still working towards their degree. It's a bit icky, but I get it. But I have a real issue with schools being able to restrict someone who has graduated already.

Plus I don't really think playbooks are a thing in college basketball. You can look at tape and see the plays, so knowing what they are isn't really the issue.

UrinalCake
01-31-2018, 01:27 PM
I see one year of a young person's personal, academic, and vocational development as far more important than a potential competitive advantage in a collegiate sports contest.

Let’s be honest here, the overwhelming majority of transfers by basketball players are done for basketball reasons, not academic.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-31-2018, 01:29 PM
Let’s be honest here, the overwhelming majority of transfers by basketball players are done for basketball reasons, not academic.

Sure. But even still it doesn't pass the straight face test to me.

Cameron Johnson is a two time academic all American who graduated in three years. You explain to me why it isn't an academic move in your opinion.

Wahoo2000
01-31-2018, 01:33 PM
Let’s be honest here, the overwhelming majority of transfers by basketball players are done for basketball reasons, not academic.

Whatever happened to the old "tried and true" sit one year for a transfer, 2 if it's within conference? Why not do that for grad transfers too? If it's too much of a penalty on the player to lose that much eligibility, just stop the clock on eligibility while they're out. Still have them on scholarship and count towards the team's total of 13. Easy peezy. Now the "students" transferring for educational/quality of life/whatever purposes aren't penalized in any way, and it's a little less attractive to the person doing it for bball reasons only (though still viable if they REALLY want to go elsewhere).

Wahoo2000
01-31-2018, 01:35 PM
Sure. But even still it doesn't pass the straight face test to me.

Cameron Johnson is a two time academic all American who graduated in three years. You explain to me why it isn't an academic move in your opinion.

In Cam's case? Because there are a multitude of academically superior schools who would have gladly accepted his transfer. That's my speculation. I'm not saying he "did it all for basketball". I'm saying he "didn't do it solely for academics".

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-31-2018, 01:38 PM
In Cam's case? Because there are a multitude of academically superior schools who would have gladly accepted his transfer. That's my speculation. I'm not saying he "did it all for basketball". I'm saying he "didn't do it solely for academics".

I am glad you have the insight into his motivations.

Sure basketball plays a part. But like I say, a competitive advantage in one basketball game doesn't warrant limiting a kid furthering his academics.

Clearly, I am in the minority. I am fine with that

Wasn't there mumblings recently about eliminating the one year wait for transfers?

UrinalCake
01-31-2018, 01:40 PM
According to UNC’s player page, Johnson is currently “Working toward his master’s degree in UNC’s exercise and sport science sports administration graduate master’s program.” For a player that was an academic all-American at Pitt, I have a hard time believing that he chose UNC because it afforded him academic opportunities that weren’t available anywhere else. It is 1000 times more likely in my mind that he saw Justin Jackson declare for the draft and felt that he could step into that role and possibly make it to the NBA.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-31-2018, 01:43 PM
According to UNC’s player page, Johnson is currently “Working toward his master’s degree in UNC’s exercise and sport science sports administration graduate master’s program.” For a player that was an academic all-American at Pitt, I have a hard time believing that he chose UNC because it afforded him academic opportunities that weren’t available anywhere else. It is 1000 times more likely in my mind that he saw Justin Jackson declare for the draft and felt that he could step into that role and possibly make it to the NBA.

So... We should limit all transfers? How it is any different that it is in conference?

English
01-31-2018, 01:47 PM
I am glad you have the insight into his motivations.

Sure basketball plays a part. But like I say, a competitive advantage in one basketball game doesn't warrant limiting a kid furthering his academics.

Clearly, I am in the minority. I am fine with that

Wasn't there mumblings recently about eliminating the one year wait for transfers?

It turns out, the proposal is to eliminate the sit-out year for transfers in instances in which a coach is fired or leaves the program. It also includes instances of post-season ban. HOWEVER, in every other instance, the "year in residence" sit-out year extends to all sports (including those not currently impacted by the sit-out transfer rule).

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/proposal-to-let-athletes-transfer-instantly-after-a-coaching-change-picks-up-steam/

cato
01-31-2018, 01:47 PM
According to UNC’s player page, Johnson is currently “Working toward his master’s degree in UNC’s exercise and sport science sports administration graduate master’s program.” For a player that was an academic all-American at Pitt, I have a hard time believing that he chose UNC because it afforded him academic opportunities that weren’t available anywhere else. It is 1000 times more likely in my mind that he saw Justin Jackson declare for the draft and felt that he could step into that role and possibly make it to the NBA.

UNC is an upgrade over Pitt in every way. Vastly superior program, team and coach. Much better preparation for playing basketball as a pro.

I would also guess that a masters from UNC in exercise and sports science is more valuable for someone entering the world of professional athletics than another year of school at Pitt. However long Johnson’s professional basketball career is, it will be much shorter than his overall career.

Bottom line: this seems like a win in every way for the player.

I see no justification for preventing the player from moving to a better situation when he has followed all of the rules. Pitt would have lost the PR wars because it would have been wrong to block the move.

PackMan97
01-31-2018, 02:14 PM
My solution for transfers is simple. Kids don't have to sit out any time at all. Instead, we can keep the current "cost" of transfers and apply it to the scholarship count of the recieving school.

Instead of sitting out a year at the new school, the kid is elligible immediately and the school has to "pay" an additional scholarship that year (for a total of two ships).
For intra-conference transfers you don't sit two years, the kid is elligible immediately and the school has to pay an additional two scholarships that year (for a total of three ships).

At the same time, if you want to redshirt and then play the school pays no additional scholarship. (the current rule)

This would limit the market for transfers because schools couldn't accept too many extra transfers lest they run out of scholarships, but at the same time not punish these young adults.

UrinalCake
01-31-2018, 02:21 PM
The main argument I have against intra-conference transfers is the likeliness of player tampering. I could see a scenario where Coach K sees that Moore kid from Wake have a monster game against us and decides he would look great on our roster next year, so he says something to him in the handshake line. And to be fair, maybe Danny Manning says the same thing to Jack White. I realize this is a minor issue and most people don’t see it as enough reason to restrict player movement, and that’s fair.

I believe there was an actual proposal discussed last year that would eliminate the sit-out year for all players at any time, not just when the coach is fired. Players would only get to do this once in their college careers. A lot of discussion ensued, but nothing ever came of it.

rasputin
01-31-2018, 02:26 PM
The main argument I have against intra-conference transfers is the likeliness of player tampering. I could see a scenario where Coach K sees that Moore kid from Wake have a monster game against us and decides he would look great on our roster next year, so he says something to him in the handshake line. And to be fair, maybe Danny Manning says the same thing to Jack White. I realize this is a minor issue and most people don’t see it as enough reason to restrict player movement, and that’s fair.

I believe there was an actual proposal discussed last year that would eliminate the sit-out year for all players at any time, not just when the coach is fired. Players would only get to do this once in their college careers. A lot of discussion ensued, but nothing ever came of it.

Eliminating the sit-out year means that a kid's recruitment never ends until he has attended school A and transferred to school B. I think it's bad enough that kids make these "commitments" routinely and then back out of them; their definition of commitment is apparently different from mine. (I'd make an exception here for when the coach leaves, etc.)

flyingdutchdevil
01-31-2018, 02:27 PM
The main argument I have against intra-conference transfers is the likeliness of player tampering. I could see a scenario where Coach K sees that Moore kid from Wake have a monster game against us and decides he would look great on our roster next year, so he says something to him in the handshake line. And to be fair, maybe Danny Manning says the same thing to Jack White. I realize this is a minor issue and most people don’t see it as enough reason to restrict player movement, and that’s fair.

I believe there was an actual proposal discussed last year that would eliminate the sit-out year for all players at any time, not just when the coach is fired. Players would only get to do this once in their college careers. A lot of discussion ensued, but nothing ever came of it.

Not possible. Jack White was a non-factor in both WF games. Maybe Brey said something to White. :D

Jokes aside, I agree with you. I don't like intra-conference transfers. It could lead to a lot of bad blood between players, teammates, etc when they face each other.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-31-2018, 04:54 PM
My understanding is a kids scholarship is only good from year to year and can be pulled at anytime.

When a kid completes a scholarship year, he should be able to transfer wherever he wants for the next year. Just as coaches can switch teams without sitting out.

If schools are worried about someone tampering to steal a player, then you better take care of your players and make it where they don't want to leave.

Cam Johnson came to UNC to play basketball. The ability to chase his masters degree in a field he wanted was a bonus.

duketaylor
01-31-2018, 04:57 PM
Quick question, can't find or remember; does #1 seed in acc tourney play at noon in quarters or late? That would be Thursday, yes? So both Friday games will be evening?
Thx in advance!

Bob Green
01-31-2018, 05:03 PM
Quick question, can't find or remember; does #1 seed in acc tourney play at noon in quarters or late? That would be Thursday, yes? So both Friday games will be evening?
Thx in advance!

Yes, the #1 seed plays Thursday at noon. Friday games are at 7 pm and 9 pm. You can find the complete bracket here:

http://theacc.com/sports/2018/1/12/2017-18-new-york-life-acc-tournament.aspx

CDu
01-31-2018, 05:03 PM
I am glad you have the insight into his motivations.

Sure basketball plays a part. But like I say, a competitive advantage in one basketball game doesn't warrant limiting a kid furthering his academics.

Clearly, I am in the minority. I am fine with that

Wasn't there mumblings recently about eliminating the one year wait for transfers?

To be fair, I definitely do suspect that Johnson chose UNC for basketball reasons. But the fact that he graduated means he has earned the right in my opinion to choose where he plays next. It is hard for me to side with the school when the player has fully honored his end of the education side. So even though I do think UNC was a bball choice, I am fine with that. In my eyes, he earned that by completing his degree.

CDu
01-31-2018, 05:05 PM
My understanding is a kids scholarship is only good from year to year and can be pulled at anytime.

When a kid completes a scholarship year, he should be able to transfer wherever he wants for the next year. Just as coaches can switch teams without sitting out.

If schools are worried about someone tampering to steal a player, then you better take care of your players and make it where they don't want to leave.

Cam Johnson came to UNC to play basketball. The ability to chase his masters degree in a field he wanted was a bonus.

The first part is no longer true. Many conferences now require a guarantee of scholarships four all eligible years.

Bob Green
01-31-2018, 05:51 PM
I'm looking forward to watching the Louisville at Virginia game tonight because it will be my first time watching Louisville this year. Seeing how they perform against Virginia will be interesting preparation for our game against the Cardinals in three weeks.

Bob Green
01-31-2018, 07:02 PM
Mute button alert: Dick "The Mouth" Vitale is providing color commentary.

Wahoo2000
01-31-2018, 07:13 PM
To be fair, I definitely do suspect that Johnson chose UNC for basketball reasons. But the fact that he graduated means he has earned the right in my opinion to choose where he plays next. It is hard for me to side with the school when the player has fully honored his end of the education side. So even though I do think UNC was a bball choice, I am fine with that. In my eyes, he earned that by completing his degree.

Won't this cause all kinds of problems with schools potentially tampering with a kid's grades/credits/etc to prevent him from trying to graduate early? Academic counselors at any corrupt program will be, at best, pulling support from players getting "ahead of the curve". At worst? Manipulating grades so kids don't graduate early? It's "yucky" to even think about, but after the scandal at UNC, I wouldn't put it past any big program to keep kids eligible, but not ahead of pace to graduate to ensure they're stuck at the program unless they want to transfer and give a redshirt year. Even worse, more and more programs could couple that with redshirting incoming recruits more often and combo'ing that with the "4 year plan" to ensure they hang on to their guys.

I really think the best solution is to let players transfer whenever they want ONCE without losing any playing eligibility or redshirt year BUT they must sit out one season (two if it's intra-conference, and one of those is the redshirt year).

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-31-2018, 07:22 PM
ESPN2 broadcasting a two-hour special tonight from 7-9pm... first hour is paint drying... second hour is grass growing.

UrinalCake
01-31-2018, 07:40 PM
Coming into the season I thought Louisville was the team we would contend with for the top of the league. Obviously they had the huge scandal and lost a top recruit and their head coach, but they still have a lot of talent.

elvis14
01-31-2018, 07:59 PM
Mute button alert: Dick "The Mouth" Vitale is providing color commentary.


Dicky V is great. Last night was when you needed the mute button as Jay Bilas spent two hours letting us know how much he loved UNCheat (while they were losing to Clemson) and the play by play guy was openly cheering for the Cheaters.

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-31-2018, 08:09 PM
Hoos fans must be the only ones in the country who jump up and down going apes**t bonkers while making the shot clock violation hand signal (hand on top of head)

kshepinthehouse
01-31-2018, 08:20 PM
Dicky V is great. Last night was when you needed the mute button as Jay Bilas spent two hours letting us know how much he loved UNCheat (while they were losing to Clemson) and the play by play guy was openly cheering for the Cheaters.

I noticed this too. He said no foul because of incidental contact. Um aren’t a lot of fouls incidental? He also didn’t like the flagrant. He went on and on in defense of UNC.

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-31-2018, 08:32 PM
I know illegal screens happen a lot but if there's one thing that pisses me off about UVA, it's that they do it on every stinking offensive possession.

If the player for whom the pick is being set is not going to use it correctly and the screening player has to move even a little to get their body into the defender, it should be a foul. Every time. It's an unfair advantage.

/rant

DU82
01-31-2018, 08:48 PM
One thing about playing tough defense and not fouling (and having enough of a lead for the opponents not to foul.) The game is over in 1:48.

Newton_14
01-31-2018, 09:03 PM
Other than the obvious smiling and fistbumping in my household after the game tonight, I have one major takeaway from the UNC game:

Boy I wish Pitt pushed harder to block that transfer. This UNC team would be NIT bound without Cam. Dude is a stud.

On offense yes, on defense not so much. Dude can't guard his shadow which is why he got benched in the 2nd half of the VaTech game. But you are spot on in that the boy can shoot the ball. I too wish both Pitt and the ACC would have blocked that transfer. (That would never happen with Swofford as Commish I know). But it should not have been allowed. It hurt the Pitt team badly and greatly helped unc@chapel hell.

Troublemaker, stats be darned, they are losing games because they are just not good in the paint on either end. Any team with quality bigs is going to be a problem for them. They basically are a live by the 3 die by the 3 team.

ncexnyc
01-31-2018, 09:05 PM
Pitt was game, but faded down the stretch.

The Cards big men didn't appreciate being worked over the way they were by UVA. Was shocked to see an over the back call where the superior athlete got called for the foul. In years past that non-call always had me scratching my head, especially the way UNCheat used to get away with that play. Cards didn't play smart and at times it seemed certain players were more concerned with getting their shots, than with winning the game.

CameronDuke
01-31-2018, 10:20 PM
So far tonight:

UVA gets the W at home vs Louisville.

GT gets the W at home vs Cuse.

Miami gets the W at home vs Pitt.

Wake Forest gets the W at home vs FSU.

Notice a theme here?

This Virginia Tech at BC game is getting good, too.

Troublemaker
01-31-2018, 10:28 PM
Troublemaker, stats be darned, they are losing games because they are just not good in the paint on either end. Any team with quality bigs is going to be a problem for them. They basically are a live by the 3 die by the 3 team.

If you're thinking ahead to next Thursday, my friend, I think that's going to be a hellacious battle. I would not expect an easy victory.

And, actually, if it were as simple as "team with paint advantage" > "team that shoots threes", Duke wouldn't have owned the head-to-head against UNC in recent seasons. It's a different matchup this year. We'll see which team is better at beating the other at their own game (historically).

CDu
02-01-2018, 08:06 AM
Won't this cause all kinds of problems with schools potentially tampering with a kid's grades/credits/etc to prevent him from trying to graduate early? Academic counselors at any corrupt program will be, at best, pulling support from players getting "ahead of the curve". At worst? Manipulating grades so kids don't graduate early? It's "yucky" to even think about, but after the scandal at UNC, I wouldn't put it past any big program to keep kids eligible, but not ahead of pace to graduate to ensure they're stuck at the program unless they want to transfer and give a redshirt year. Even worse, more and more programs could couple that with redshirting incoming recruits more often and combo'ing that with the "4 year plan" to ensure they hang on to their guys.

If that were going to happen, it would already be happening (because we already allow grad transfers. But I don’t think schools would be that dumb. The players would definitely call the schools out on this. And can you imagine the hell that would be paid if a program was caught actively sabotaging the academics of a kid who was trying to graduate?

chris13
02-01-2018, 09:43 AM
only problem there is that you are in Durham. Out of the frying pan, into the firing line.

I'd rather live in Durham than anywhere else in the Triangle, and I have a strong preference for the Durham / Orange County side of the Triangle vs the Wake county side.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-01-2018, 09:47 AM
Won't this cause all kinds of problems with schools potentially tampering with a kid's grades/credits/etc to prevent him from trying to graduate early? Academic counselors at any corrupt program will be, at best, pulling support from players getting "ahead of the curve". At worst? Manipulating grades so kids don't graduate early? It's "yucky" to even think about, but after the scandal at UNC, I wouldn't put it past any big program to keep kids eligible, but not ahead of pace to graduate to ensure they're stuck at the program unless they want to transfer and give a redshirt year. Even worse, more and more programs could couple that with redshirting incoming recruits more often and combo'ing that with the "4 year plan" to ensure they hang on to their guys.

I really think the best solution is to let players transfer whenever they want ONCE without losing any playing eligibility or redshirt year BUT they must sit out one season (two if it's intra-conference, and one of those is the redshirt year).

I think there's plenty of evidence that schools will bend over backwards to assist their athletes with their academics rather than to sandbag their academics.

One of the last really good stories I heard regarding academics and college basketball was the ground-breaking work that Duke did helping Jay Williams be in position to graduate after three years so that he could both fulfill his promise to his mother and leave early to the NBA - I hope I have that story right... At any rate, it's the sort of story that engenders great positivity from an entire generation of mothers.

OldPhiKap
02-01-2018, 10:03 AM
I think there's plenty of evidence that schools will bend over backwards to assist their athletes with their academics rather than to sandbag their academics.

One of the last really good stories I heard regarding academics and college basketball was the ground-breaking work that Duke did helping Jay Williams be in position to graduate after three years so that he could both fulfill his promise to his mother and leave early to the NBA - I hope I have that story right... At any rate, it's the sort of story that engenders great positivity from an entire generation of mothers.

I think that is generally true for tuition-paying non-athletes too. Schools generally do not want kids to flunk out, be it for altruistic or financial reasons. Once accepted, they want you to succeed and will assist if they can.

Bob Green
02-03-2018, 06:50 AM
Saturday
12:00 PM Notre Dame at NC State
12:00 PM #4 Duke at St. John's
2:00 PM Miami at Virginia Tech
2:00 PM #18 Clemson at Wake Forest
4:00 PM #2 Virginia at Syracuse
4:00 PM Florida State at Louisville
8:00 PM Pittsburgh at #10 North Carolina

Will the home teams dominate again today? Home teams are 6-1 so far this week but if you look back at last Saturday the visitors won four of six games. Clemson (-4) and Virginia (-5.5) are favored on the road (Duke as well but I'm talking conference match-ups here). Virginia Tech (-4) and Louisville (-5) are slight favorites at home.

Today's action feature several interesting games to keep us entertained on a cold day.

kshepinthehouse
02-03-2018, 07:23 AM
Will the home teams dominate again today? Home teams are 6-1 so far this week but if you look back at last Saturday the visitors won four of six games. Clemson (-4) and Virginia (-5.5) are favored on the road (Duke as well but I'm talking conference match-ups here). Virginia Tech (-4) and Louisville (-5) are slight favorites at home.

Today's action feature several interesting games to keep us entertained on a cold day.

NC STATE -3 should breeze at home. If Ferrell plays for Notre Dame things could get interesting.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-03-2018, 07:43 AM
I see UNC as #19, not #10. Are we using a weird metric?

tbyers11
02-03-2018, 07:52 AM
I see UNC as #19, not #10. Are we using a weird metric?

Bob was quoting a list of games that Jason had put together Monday morning before this week's poll came out.

That's UNC's ranking from last week

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-03-2018, 07:56 AM
Bob was quoting a list of games that Jason had put together Monday morning before this week's poll came out.

That's UNC's ranking from last week

I like the trajectory

OldPhiKap
02-03-2018, 09:07 AM
Will the home teams dominate again today? Home teams are 6-1 so far this week but if you look back at last Saturday the visitors won four of six games. Clemson (-4) and Virginia (-5.5) are favored on the road (Duke as well but I'm talking conference match-ups here). Virginia Tech (-4) and Louisville (-5) are slight favorites at home.

Today's action feature several interesting games to keep us entertained on a cold day.

I’m pulling for all the road teams today except @State. So likely a tough day for me.

But as long as Duke wins, it’s all good.

I guess I should hope that UVA comes back to the field, but catching them is a tough order at this stage.

JasonEvans
02-03-2018, 09:59 AM
I guess I should hope that UVA comes back to the field, but catching them is a tough order at this stage.

Not to go all bracketology here... but we should root for UVA to pick up a loss or two even if we cannot catch them as it makes our case for a #1 seed over them stronger in the event we beat them and win the ACC title. If they win the ACC regular season by 1 game but we beat them in the ACC Tourney (the REAL ACC championship) then our much stronger non-conf performance could carry the day and lift us ahead of them onto a #1 seed line.

ncexnyc
02-03-2018, 10:33 AM
State has a habit of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, I hope today isn't another one of those days. Despite being a playing with a depleted roster the Irish have played tough.

Pitt has been competitive in its last few outings. Maybe today is the day they finally ring the bell and send Ol' Roy into total Haitian disaster mode.

OldPhiKap
02-03-2018, 11:05 AM
Not to go all bracketology here... but we should root for UVA to pick up a loss or two even if we cannot catch them as it makes our case for a #1 seed over them stronger in the event we beat them and win the ACC title. If they win the ACC regular season by 1 game but we beat them in the ACC Tourney (the REAL ACC championship) then our much stronger non-conf performance could carry the day and lift us ahead of them onto a #1 seed line.

Excellent point, had not thought in those terms.

UrinalCake
02-03-2018, 11:24 AM
Not to go all bracketology here... but we should root for UVA to pick up a loss or two even if we cannot catch them as it makes our case for a #1 seed over them stronger in the event we beat them and win the ACC title. If they win the ACC regular season by 1 game but we beat them in the ACC Tourney (the REAL ACC championship) then our much stronger non-conf performance could carry the day and lift us ahead of them onto a #1 seed line.


But what if we don't get to face them in the ACC Tournament? Then we want them to win as many as possible, so our loss to them doesn't look as bad.

JasonEvans
02-03-2018, 11:56 AM
But what if we don't get to face them in the ACC Tournament? Then we want them to win as many as possible, so our loss to them doesn't look as bad.

In the case where Virginia finds a way to lose -- for example -- 2 ACC regular season games and -- for example -- Duke runs the table from here and wins the ACC tourney (after Virginia falls in the ACC semis to someone else) then Duke's case for a #1 seed may be better than Virginia's. In that scenario, Duke and Virginia would have the same number of ACC losses counting regular season and tournament games. Virginia's win at Duke would count a lot, but Duke would have finished the season stronger and I suspect that would carry the day. If Duke loses one more game while Virginia loses 2 other regular season contests, I still think we have a good shot at getting a #1 seed ahead of them.

Now, if Duke loses 2 more games the rest of the season, I think our chances for a #1 seed start to get slim (obviously, it depends upon what other teams do). That would put us at 5 regular season losses and winning the ACC tourney would sorta become a must. For comparison purposes (and I'm not sure it means much of anything, but I looked up the numbers so I might as well share them), here are the number of losses for each #1 seed over the past half decade or so.

2017 – 1,3,4,7
2016 – 4,6,6,7
2015 – 0,2,3,4
2014 – 0,2,4,6
2013 – 2,5,5,6
2012 – 2,2,5,7

-Jason "As you can see, 5 or less total losses from a major conference team pretty typically nets a #1 seed. More than 5 and it gets very dicey" Evans

ncexnyc
02-03-2018, 01:06 PM
State looking really good today, but Beverly got destroyed at the end of the half by a solid pick. I hope he's ok and will return for the second half.

PackMan97
02-03-2018, 01:49 PM
State has a habit of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, I hope today isn't another one of those days. Despite being a playing with a depleted roster the Irish have played tough.

Pitt has been competitive in its last few outings. Maybe today is the day they finally ring the bell and send Ol' Roy into total Haitian disaster mode.

State returned the favor blowing out ND on a non-competitive game. Ferrell did play.

This state team is not like any of the teams we have had over the past 25 years.

MartyClark
02-03-2018, 02:10 PM
State returned the favor blowing out ND on a non-competitive game. Ferrell did play.

This state team is not like any of the teams we have had over the past 25 years.

Go State! Except against Duke.

Bob Green
02-03-2018, 04:02 PM
Miami and Clemson secure road wins over Virginia Tech and Wake Forest respectively.

PackMan97
02-03-2018, 04:46 PM
Miami and Clemson secure road wins over Virginia Tech and Wake Forest respectively.

At what point do we switch over from waiting for Clemson to fall in the standings without Donte Grantham to expecting them to keep winning?

Bob Green
02-03-2018, 04:52 PM
At what point do we switch over from waiting for Clemson to fall in the standings without Donte Grantham to expecting them to keep winning?

Clemson certainly looks like the real deal at 8-3 in conference play.

PackMan97
02-03-2018, 05:04 PM
Clemson certainly looks like the real deal at 8-3 in conference play.

They still have games against Pitt, Wake and GT...three games they should win easily. That's 11-3. That's 11-7 at worst, maybe even 12-6 or 13-5.

duke2x
02-03-2018, 06:49 PM
But what if we don't get to face them in the ACC Tournament? Then we want them to win as many as possible, so our loss to them doesn't look as bad.

I don't think you have to worry about how our home loss looks after today. I'm going to give you another reason/discussion point why I don't want UVA to win out. Only one team has made it through ACC play undefeated (19-0). With their victory @Syracuse today, there are only a couple realistic opportunities to blemish their record since Duke and BC couldn't finish the job. As good as they are on defense, I don't think they belong in a serious discussion with that team even at 21-0.

dukelifer
02-03-2018, 07:07 PM
Clemson certainly looks like the real deal at 8-3 in conference play.

Duke will have their hands full against them.

kshepinthehouse
02-03-2018, 07:08 PM
Duke will have their hands full against them.

Duke seems to have their hands full against most opponents lol. At least until the last few minutes.

Wahoo2000
02-03-2018, 07:59 PM
I don't think you have to worry about how our home loss looks after today. I'm going to give you another reason/discussion point why I don't want UVA to win out. Only one team has made it through ACC play undefeated (19-0). With their victory @Syracuse today, there are only a couple realistic opportunities to blemish their record since Duke and BC couldn't finish the job. As good as they are on defense, I don't think they belong in a serious discussion with that team even at 21-0.

I don't think anyone (reasonable) will be comparing this year's Virginia team to the '99 Duke squad. That team might've been the best ever to not win a national title.

UrinalCake
02-03-2018, 08:13 PM
Forcing myself to hate-watch the UNC-Pitt game. A loss by the heels is the only thing that can make tomorrow's trip to church bearable. Hopefully the "St. John's of the ACC" can pull it out, but I'm not very optimistic.

accfanfrom1970
02-03-2018, 09:42 PM
You must really be hating what youre watching...

PackMan97
02-03-2018, 10:20 PM
Forcing myself to hate-watch the UNC-Pitt game. A loss by the heels is the only thing that can make tomorrow's trip to church bearable. Hopefully the "St. John's of the ACC" can pull it out, but I'm not very optimistic.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to watching UNC.”
– YodaMan97

vick
02-04-2018, 12:57 PM
I don't think anyone (reasonable) will be comparing this year's Virginia team to the '99 Duke squad. That team might've been the best ever to not win a national title.

UVA’s efficiency margin (average margin pace-adjusted to 100 possessions) is 21.2 this year in conference play. That’s very good, and trails only the following since 1997:

UVA 2014: 21.5
Duke 1998: 22.7
UNC 2005: 22.9
Duke 2001: 23.1
Duke 2002: 23.1 (same as 2001)
Duke 1999: 32.2 (!)

Very good company. That was just an absurd stretch for Duke basketball.

duke2x
02-04-2018, 02:21 PM
UVA’s efficiency margin (average margin pace-adjusted to 100 possessions) is 21.2 this year in conference play. That’s very good, and trails only the following since 1997:

UVA 2014: 21.5
Duke 1998: 22.7
UNC 2005: 22.9
Duke 2001: 23.1
Duke 2002: 23.1 (same as 2001)
Duke 1999: 32.2 (!)

Very good company. That was just an absurd stretch for Duke basketball.

Thanks. A certain % of Triangle ACC basketball fans do not fall into the reasonable category. I've often called 1998-2004 the second era of Duke basketball following the first (1986-1994).