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JBDuke
01-27-2018, 03:07 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. If you need to vent or bash Duke coaches or players, do it elsewhere.

Furniture
01-27-2018, 03:08 PM
Next play.

freshmanjs
01-27-2018, 03:08 PM
Next play.

That's not what the next play philosophy refers to.

Bluedog
01-27-2018, 03:09 PM
UVa is a great team and we showed a lot of resiliency in the second half. This game should make us better. Missing front ends of 1 and 1s as well as turning the ball over too many times was the difference. Congrats to Virginia. They deserved to win. I'm honestly not that upset by the loss and don't think it's a terrible omen for the rest of the season. Would have if that 13 point lead stuck the rest of the game but Duke fighting back showed a lot.

wavedukefan70s
01-27-2018, 03:10 PM
Shot ourselves in the foot.got violated.tough one to swallow.

SCMatt33
01-27-2018, 03:10 PM
Can't miss four front ends and beat good teams. A repeat of that at the wrong time can end your season.

Dub
01-27-2018, 03:10 PM
Iím encouraged. Guys showed grit and growth in the huge 2nd half rally. FTs were ultimately our undoing. Iím sure folks will bash Trevon (as they always do) but he was a man in the 2nd half. He made a bad decision toward the end but Itís certainly a coachable moment when they review the tape. Hate to lose, but this felt like a type of loss that guys can grow from. On to the next one...

Furniture
01-27-2018, 03:11 PM
That's not what the next play philosophy refers to.

Excuse me then...

Kjeffrey
01-27-2018, 03:11 PM
A tale of two halves. UVA s good but Duke made a lot of unforced errors today - sloppy TO's, missed shots and free throws. With a few different plays it could have gone the other way. Congrats to the Cavaliers. If we see them in the ACC tourney we should have a better showing.

Chard
01-27-2018, 03:11 PM
Baffled by the lack of a review of those swinging elbows.

SkyBrickey
01-27-2018, 03:11 PM
Way too many turnovers. Probably would have won if we'd played zone the whole game like we did against Michigan State. Learning experience. We'll get them in the ACCT.

subzero02
01-27-2018, 03:11 PM
I think we'll see UVA at least 1 more time. We must play smarter down the stretch and Carter and Bagley need to avoid turnovers in their high/low game

Bob Green
01-27-2018, 03:11 PM
As I said before the game, first team to 65 wins. Free Throw shooting hurt us.

gocanes0506
01-27-2018, 03:11 PM
Abysmal last two minutes
I said in the pre game thread Duval would be key. He wasnít present for most of the game. The long court pass when down two was a bad freshmen mistake.
It was nice it was close after an awful shooting first half

As a joke l, any Duke fan going to the dorm offering free throw help to Carter. He left 5 points on the line.

Troublemaker
01-27-2018, 03:11 PM
Congrats to UVA and their fans for a great road win for them and probably locking up the regular season title.

For Duke, we've just got to move on, stay positive, and continue to improve the rest of the season. The ACC tournament is obviously still in play.

Imo, our fans are sort of embarrassing with some of our in-game comments. Chill out.

jipops
01-27-2018, 03:12 PM
What a great game. Hats off to the hoos. No doubt they are the best in the conference. I'm hoping for an ACC tournament rematch.

MartyClark
01-27-2018, 03:12 PM
Baffled by the lack of a review of those swinging elbows.

Yeah, I don't want to be a sour grapes guy in a loss, but why was that not a flagrant foul?

Bob Green
01-27-2018, 03:12 PM
Imo, our fans are sort of embarrassing with some of their in-game comments. Chill out.

I agree 100 percent.

gocanes0506
01-27-2018, 03:13 PM
Way too many turnovers. Probably would have won if we'd played zone the whole game like we did against Michigan State. Learning experience. We'll get them in the ACCT.

I think weíd have to go to 1-3-1. They started to kill the zone with the passes to the FT line.

dukebluesincebirth
01-27-2018, 03:13 PM
We couldíve won this. UVA started to figure out some ways to get points against the zone just in time, but we still had a chance. We had the ball down by 2 and Duval turned it over with a risky pass. Wish we couldíve gotten it to Bagley there, but thatís the way it goes. We can beat this team.

DukieInBrasil
01-27-2018, 03:14 PM
Played too young at the moments that mattered, but damn if Bagley and Carter aren't impressive. If we had a team of 5 of them we would have beaten UVA. As it was, we had to have 3 other guards on the court with them, and our guards were terrible, shooting a combined 8-25, and 1-8 from 3 and only 2-4 from the line. Our guards also coughed the ball up 10 times vs 11 assists. Grayson was terrible throughout the game, and Duval made 2 really horrible plays that were critical to destroying Duke momentum in the 2nd half. Trent was the least bad of the 3 but he's not a good enough ball handler to take on mych more of a role than he did. We got nothing from the bench today, and i'm not sure anyone on the bench would have helped today.
Had Duke come out of the gate resembling a team that knew how to play basketball we would win this game easily. That being said, UVA won't surprise this team a second time, and i think a rematch would go Duke's way.

CoachJ10
01-27-2018, 03:14 PM
Missed free throws and the turnovers are easy to point to...but not grabbing some defensive rebounds in the last couple minutes were just as big. Very frustrating game.

Salt and Wilkins should have fouled out in the first half. Hunter is a legit stud.

Really wanted Grayson initiating the offense down the stretch.

gocanes0506
01-27-2018, 03:14 PM
Yeah, I don't want to be a sour grapes guy in a loss, but why was that not a flagrant foul?

Refs probably determined it happened as a side effect of the foul.

Kjeffrey
01-27-2018, 03:15 PM
I agree 100 percent.

Board or chat?

flyingdutchdevil
01-27-2018, 03:15 PM
Abysmal last two minutes
I said in the pre game thread Duval would be key. He wasnít present for most of the game. The long court pass when down two was a bad freshmen mistake.
It was nice it was close after an awful shooting first half

As a joke l, any Duke fan going to the dorm offering free throw help to Carter. He left 5 points on the line.

Duval is also the reason Carter missed FTs. And the reason UNC won the natty last season. And also should be blamed for the start of WWI.

A lot of mistakes and poor plays. Duval certainly attributed, but heís far from the only one.

The anti-Duval sentiment on this board still baffles me.

CDu
01-27-2018, 03:15 PM
Had our chances, just didn’t play well enough against the best team in the ACC. Tough one to lose. Hopefully a learning experience.

Not impressed with Allen at the end. I understand competitive juices/frustration and all that, but incidental contact doesn’t warrant that response.

This loss more or less eliminates us from winning the ACC regular season and getting the #1 seed in the ACC tourney, and probably pushes us out of range of a 1 seed in the East or South. Tough pill to swallow. Magnifies the importance of the BC and NC St losses.

Billy Dat
01-27-2018, 03:15 PM
Carter on the line for the 1 and 1 up 3 with about 6:30 left was the moment this one got away. He missed, they started uncharacteristically attacking the o-boards and we started to look tired. Props to the starters for their effort. They were tired at the end. Solid FT shooting was key to early season comebacks, not today but they missed some big ones, too. Hate losing at home. So it goes.

CameronDuke
01-27-2018, 03:16 PM
Congrats to Virginia. Thought when Duke came back and got up 4-6 points midway through the 2nd half, Virginia would buckle but they fought back and deserved to win. Too many unforced turnovers, missed free throws especially front ends of 1-1s, and didn't get much from the guards scoring the ball. Duke needs a bit more shooting from 3 to balance them out offensively. Bagley and Carter fought their guts out on the blocks but looked a bit gassed near the end on the defensive glass. Virginia had countless hustle rebounds offensively where they simply beat Duke to 50-50 balls. I still think some positives can be taken away for Duke. They got down 13 to start the 2nd half and stormed back. They played as hard as they could. They had Virginia rattled going to the 2-3 zone. And despite the turnovers and missed free throws, it was anyone's game with 2 minutes left. I think Duke will learn from this and hopefully face Virginia again in the ACC Tournament. Virginia is as good as advertised, but I'd like another shot at them. I will take 6-3 through the first half of ACC play with this team. They're learning and still have a great shot of a top 2-3 finish in the ACC.

sbroc012
01-27-2018, 03:16 PM
Loss stinks. Ultimately doesn't mean too much cause I don't think UVA was lined up to lose many more acc games. Meet them in the ACCT and beat them. UVA is good but once again their style will lend them to getting bounced from the tourney before the final four.

DukieInBrasil
01-27-2018, 03:16 PM
Way too many turnovers. Probably would have won if we'd played zone the whole game like we did against Michigan State. Learning experience. We'll get them in the ACCT.

i really don't understand why K refuses to acknowledge that this team sucks at m2m defense. Give it a shot at the beginning of the game, go for it. But after about 5 minutes it was obvious that m2m was not going to contain UVA. That was the biggest mistake of the game, K sticking with m2m for so long.

CDu
01-27-2018, 03:18 PM
Baffled by the lack of a review of those swinging elbows.


Yeah, I don't want to be a sour grapes guy in a loss, but why was that not a flagrant foul?

Because Allen invaded Guy’s vertical space. It was the right call.

WHOneedsSOX
01-27-2018, 03:18 PM
Lot of poor decision making tonight contributed to the loss. Turnovers, missed free throws, bad shots. Can't have that in a game where possessions are so valuable.

Ian
01-27-2018, 03:18 PM
FT shooting and bad decisions. It's hard to win big games with a PG with such poor decision making skills.

snewman92
01-27-2018, 03:18 PM
1) He's 19 yrs old.
2) He also showed this game what he's capable of when he's on.
3) Yes, he made a boneheaded pass. But see 1).

Kjeffrey
01-27-2018, 03:20 PM
Carter on the line for the 1 and 1 up 3 with about 6:30 left was the moment this one got away. He missed, they started uncharacteristically attacking the o-boards and we started to look tired. Props to the starters for their effort. They were tired at the end. Solid FT shooting was key to early season comebacks, not today but they missed some big ones, too. Hate losing at home. So it goes.

I think a few minutes of rest would have helped in the end but no subs were used. Last game we lost went the same way. Since then we have played the bench, even against Miami, but not today. I'm not sure Duke can win any championship if the coaching staff only plays 5 guys.

nmduke2001
01-27-2018, 03:20 PM
Playing UVa is like playing South Carolina last year. Their reputation allows them to make defensive plays that would be fouls on other teams. Duke has to understand that and play through it. Making a few threes would help too.

jipops
01-27-2018, 03:21 PM
Loss stinks. Ultimately doesn't mean too much cause I don't think UVA was lined up to lose many more acc games. Meet them in the ACCT and beat them. UVA is good but once again their style will lend them to getting bounced from the tourney before the final four.

How so? Do you think they will just stop playing defense?

This is a historically great defensive team that just beat our guys on their home floor in the biggest game of the season. The #2 offense in the nation was held to 63 points on their home floor. They will be a #1 seed. I see a Final Four team.

YmoBeThere
01-27-2018, 03:21 PM
I'm really surprised they didn't just send us to the line the last few possessions, I think they would have won by a larger margin.

gocanes0506
01-27-2018, 03:22 PM
Duval is also the reason Carter missed FTs. And the reason UNC won the natty last season. And also should be blamed for the start of WWI.

A lot of mistakes and poor plays. Duval certainly attributed, but heís far from the only one.

The anti-Duval sentiment on this board still baffles me.

Probably should watch games more if it baffles you. By the way, your hyperbole doesnít mean his struggles arenít real. He was out of control and made a bunch of bad plays. He had a couple of good ones but his bad well out weighed his good.

Again i singled out Duval because I said he had to have a good game to win. He has struggled in ACC play. He didnít make up for it today.

Bluedog
01-27-2018, 03:23 PM
Because Allen invaded Guyís vertical space. It was the right call.

I agree but I still see that called a flagrant a lot of the time when an elbow hits somebody in the face. Overall, I thought most calls went our way today though except for that and the one out of bounds with like 3:30 left when no Duke player touched it. Refs didn't cause us to lose the game.

CoachJ10
01-27-2018, 03:23 PM
Had our chances, just didnít play well enough against the best team in the ACC. Tough one to lose. Hopefully a learning experience.

Not impressed with Allen at the end. I understand competitive juices/frustration and all that, but incidental contact doesnít warrant that response.

This loss more or less eliminates us from winning the ACC regular season and getting the #1 seed in the ACC tourney, and probably pushes us out of range of a 1 seed in the East or South. Tough pill to swallow. Magnifies the importance of the BC and NC St losses.

Allen had a very natural reaction to getting drilled with an elbow (especially because if the shoe had been on the other foot, we KNOW what would have been called). Virginia plays very physical (how many obvious pushes and shoves were not called) and that kind of play gets people understandably upset.

WVDUKEFAN
01-27-2018, 03:24 PM
I thought one of the keys to the game was Trevon. He had some great drives that got us back in it. Unfortunately, he made a couple of bad decisions down the stretch. We still aren't getting the real Grayson offensively. I think we are going to be the team to beat down the stretch.

WakeDevil
01-27-2018, 03:24 PM
Abysmal last two minutes
I said in the pre game thread Duval would be key. He wasnít present for most of the game. The long court pass when down two was a bad freshmen mistake.
It was nice it was close after an awful shooting first half

As a joke l, any Duke fan going to the dorm offering free throw help to Carter. He left 5 points on the line.

Why is it a freshman mistake?

Furniture
01-27-2018, 03:24 PM
Duval is also the reason Carter missed FTs. And the reason UNC won the natty last season. And also should be blamed for the start of WWI.
A lot of mistakes and poor plays. Duval certainly attributed, but heís far from the only one.
The anti-Duval sentiment on this board still baffles me.

I tripped up leaving the house this morning. Definitely Duvals fault....

CDu
01-27-2018, 03:25 PM
I agree but I still see that called a flagrant a lot of the time when an elbow hits somebody in the face.

You rarely see a scenario like that where Allen was basically standing/leaning over him. It was the right call. That there may have been instances elsewhere in which the wrong call was made doesnít change that.

gocanes0506
01-27-2018, 03:26 PM
Why is it a freshman mistake?

Donít see too many non freshmen making that mistake in that situation. A freshmen trying to make a play that wasnít worth the risk.

Ian
01-27-2018, 03:26 PM
Why is it a freshman mistake?

Because you make it as a freshmen, turn the ball over, and learn you can't do that any more, so when you're a sophmore you don't make that pass any more. Unfortunately for us he'll learn not to do it when he's in the NBA next year.

Ballboy1998
01-27-2018, 03:26 PM
For folks once again piling on Duval, he made a couple mistakes, but I thought he was still more of a net positive than our senior captain. Grayson has been very disappointing in conference play on both sides of the ball.

flyingdutchdevil
01-27-2018, 03:26 PM
You rarely see a scenario like that where Allen was basically standing/leaning over him. It was the right call. That there may have been instances elsewhere in which the wrong call was made doesnít change that.

Iím 100% with CDu on this. Allen hovered over Guy. Guy may have been a little aggressive, but it was absolutely the right call to not call a fragrant on Guy.

WillJ
01-27-2018, 03:26 PM
Great game. Would have been nice to win, but UVA played well and, with luck, we got better. Also, UNC lost today....how bad of a day could it be?

dukelifer
01-27-2018, 03:28 PM
Duke played hard- got the lead- had a good chance to push it to 7 but UVa hit big shots down the stretch and Duke missed FT's. Two good teams battled and in the end it came down to the last minute or so. Duke's mediocre FT shooting is a problem because tourney games generally come down to the last couple minutes and the pressure to hit is high. Not sure who I trust to hit them under pressure. Such a difference from last year. Not much else you can say. The team learned a lot today. Just a month left to fix the nagging problems. It would help greatly if Grayson finishes the season strong. Very unusual for a Duke senior with his talent to end his career this way. All I know is that Bagley is amazing. Never got to see Kyrie for long. Bagley has been fun to watch. Will miss that guy at Duke. I heard he is thinking about going pro ;)

Duke76
01-27-2018, 03:28 PM
i really don't understand why K refuses to acknowledge that this team sucks at m2m defense. Give it a shot at the beginning of the game, go for it. But after about 5 minutes it was obvious that m2m was not going to contain UVA. That was the biggest mistake of the game, K sticking with m2m for so long.

well that was puzzling he (K) waited so long....we historically get beat on back doors and today was no exception...in the 1st half must have been 3 or 4. I can't understand Grayson's hesitation on his shot today...understand the need to go inside...but for us to win it all he has got to shoot the 3...again repeat...where is chip engelland? take a one week break from spurs and come on back

WVDUKEFAN
01-27-2018, 03:30 PM
Grayson definitely has to be more of a factor.

Saratoga2
01-27-2018, 03:31 PM
Didn't see much of a chance in the first half with poor shooting, turnovers and UVA picking our MTM apart. I hoped for better guard shooting in the second half, more focus on the bigs and perhaps getting O'Connell in as another scorer although he looked lost on MTM. I didn't account for our Zone being effective. Virginia did get open looks on 3 but was missing them for a while and then countered us by dropping a man into the soft spot. We got lucky there as Virginia went into a cold shooting spell.

Bagley and Carter were impressive (44 pts between them) although they must have gotten tired. The missed foul shots hurt us. Virginia also missed some at the end to give us a chance. Virginia gave our guards virtually no open looks so it is not surprising we shot poorly from outside.

Thought Grayson generally played good and hard defense but our guards turned the ball over too much and in the end that may have made the difference in the game.

Virginia is a very good and well coached team so I expected a close game and we lost to a team of about equal ability today. Time for coach K to consider less MTM and coach in a more methodical and less turnover prone offense.

dukelifer
01-27-2018, 03:31 PM
For folks once again piling on Duval, he made a couple mistakes, but I thought he was still more of a net positive than our senior captain. Grayson has been very disappointing in conference play on both sides of the ball.

Grayson should be better- but he has made some important plays and passes in conference. The loss of his shot is a mystery.

DangerDevil
01-27-2018, 03:32 PM
You rarely see a scenario like that where Allen was basically standing/leaning over him. It was the right call. That there may have been instances elsewhere in which the wrong call was made doesnít change that.

Even if it was the right call arenít the refs still supposed to review a potential flagrant foul?



ďRULING- The official has called a common foul on B1.That foul cannot be reversed by the use of instant replay. However, the officials may use instant replay to determine if A1 committed a flagrant foul for the elbow contact. If, after review, the officials determine that the foul was not flagrant, no foul can be assessed against A1. Enforce the penalty against B1 (shoot free throws if in the bonus) or resume play with a throw-in to Team A at a designated spot nearest to where the foul occurred. The elbow contact by A1 on B1 shall be considered incidental (Rule 11-1.4.a and 11-2.1.d.2). If the officials determine that the contact was flagrant, the fouls by B1 and A1 become a double foul. Administer the free throws for B1ís common foul (if required) with no players on the lane line followed by the free throws for the flagrant foul also with no players on the lane line. Play shall be resumed with a throw-in by Team B at the point of interruption (Rule 4-15.2.b, 11-2.1.d.2 and 10-1 PENALTY f).Ē

flyingdutchdevil
01-27-2018, 03:32 PM
Grayson should be better- but he has made some important plays and passes in conference. The loss of his shot is a mystery.

Not just the loss of shot, but shot hesitation and, sometimes, shot selection. Grayson has been our best distributor and defender in ACC play, but everything related to his shot is just baffling.

Ian
01-27-2018, 03:32 PM
You rarely see a scenario like that where Allen was basically standing/leaning over him. It was the right call. That there may have been instances elsewhere in which the wrong call was made doesnít change that.

Just because the guy is in your cyclinder doesn't mean you get a free punch to their face, it still has to be a normal basketball motion. And in this scenario I think it can be argued that Guy lifted his elbow purposely to get Grayson's chin, so they should have at least reviewed it.

Kjeffrey
01-27-2018, 03:32 PM
Allen had a very natural reaction to getting drilled with an elbow (especially because if the shoe had been on the other foot, we KNOW what would have been called). Virginia plays very physical (how many obvious pushes and shoves were not called) and that kind of play gets people understandably upset.

Allen was definitely in Guy's space but I don't blame him for reacting that way. I'd like to think Guy was being classy when he tried to help Allen up. However, I lost a little respect for UVA today. They had a better game plan than Duke or at least stuck to that plan better. But that doesn't mean I have to like how they played. There was a lot of complaining, woofing and physical play. I understand why Allen was frustrated.

CDu
01-27-2018, 03:34 PM
Just because the guy is in your cyclinder doesn't mean you get a free punch to their face, it still has to be a normal basketball motion. And in this scenario I think it can be argued that Guy lifted his elbow purposely to get Grayson's chin, so they should have at least reviewed it.

He didn’t punch Allen in the face. He made an absolutely normal basketball play, and because Allen was in his space and practically diving on him, the elbow clipped his face. It sucks for Allen, but was the right call.

jipops
01-27-2018, 03:35 PM
I think the toughest to stomach here is the odds of being a number 1 seed have pretty much slipped away. And we don't tend to go very far when not a 1 seed. I suppose it is possible if we win out the rest of the season and the committee factors in a conference tournament title. But otherwise it's gone and we'll have to break with a lot of precedent to play in April.

richardjackson199
01-27-2018, 03:36 PM
I thought one of the keys to the game was Trevon. He had some great drives that got us back in it. Unfortunately, he made a couple of bad decisions down the stretch. We still aren't getting the real Grayson offensively. I think we are going to be the team to beat down the stretch.

Agree. Duval had a nice 2nd half overall and was getting to the rim. Even the turnover pass wasn't a terrible idea. I'm sure we were coached to try to push ball up the floor before UVA could set up their packline. I was upset at the time, but Duval was trying to get us a fastbreak layup there, and he can make that pass. He has made it many times. UVA got that one.

I was hopeful at the time, but the noncall on the elbow at the end against Grayson was right call. Player has right to vertical cylinder space, and referee didn't need to make a game-changing call there. UVA had earned it and we didn't. Congrats to them.

That blown call when it was out on them near the end hurt. They hit a 3 on that possession.

Nice comeback, but we didn't play well enough for 40 minutes to win. We must start hitting free throws and stop falling behind double digits in 2nd half to good teams to have a successful tourney run. Hopefully we learn from this one and get better.

scottdude8
01-27-2018, 03:36 PM
I didn't follow the in-game thread so I'm not sure what exactly was going on there, but I can imagine/infer where some of the frustration was directed. I think that a lot of the frustrations we're feeling as fans with this uber-talented but young team are the necessary evils of the one-and-done era. It's easy in the heat of the moment to direct that frustration at players without realizing they're freshmen. Heck, five-ten years ago we'd EXPECT freshmen to make the types of mental mistakes ours are making and be pleasantly surprised when they didn't; now, for better or worse, we expect them to be an NBA-caliber, cohesive unit the second the step foot in Durham.

TL;DR: being frustrated in general is totally understandable. Being frustrated at individual players, particularly freshmen, isn't. Some perspective is necessary.

With all that out of the way, I saw three major takeaways from this game.
1) Duke isn't out of any game, no matter how much they're down. There is something to be said for the comebacks we've had all year, even one today that didn't end up in a victory. There are some intangibles at play there that give us reason to be optimistic.
2) As much as Coach K will hate it, I think we're going to have to start playing zone more often, particularly in the first half. Against both Miami and today against Virginia switching to the zone got us back in the game in the second half after the man let us down in the first. I think the most effective thing going forward will be to play some situational defense, peppering in the zone periodically throughout the game. Think of how Jon Beilein teams, primarily back at WVU but a bit in his early days at Michigan, would go to the 1-3-1 zones at crucial moments to confuse the offense and try for a turnover. There's something to be said for confusing the offensive gameplan by switching up D, and as a defensively challenged team we should make use of that potential advantage.
3) We won't win a National Championship, let alone an ACC Tourney title, without Grayson scoring. Grayson looked like a stud way back when against MSU, and something has changed in his game since then. Yes, he's continually giving the team value with his energy, leadership, and improved D. But he's gotta be a double digit scorer for this team to achieve it's lofty goals, and at the very least get back to being a reliable three point shooter. I used to think every reasonably open three that he shot was going in. I miss that feeling.

All this loss means is that an ACC regular season title is out of reach. A No. 1 seed is definitely still in play. We've got two games against UNC that we can/should take advantage of. And there's another month for this young team to grow before tourney time. Today hurts, but our goals remain attainable. Go Duke.

Ian
01-27-2018, 03:36 PM
He didnít punch Allen in the face. He made an absolutely normal basketball play, and because Allen was in his space, the elbow clipped his face. It sucks for Allen, but was the right call.

Did he make a normal basketball play, or did he lift his elbow higher than it needed to be? It should have been reviewed to determine that. Not automatically dismissed because of "cylinder".

CDu
01-27-2018, 03:37 PM
I think the toughest to stomach here is the odds of being a number 1 seed have pretty much slipped away. And we don't tend to go very far when not a 1 seed. I suppose it is possible if we win out the rest of the season and the committee factors in a conference tournament title. But otherwise it's gone and we'll have to break with a lot of precedent to play in April.

At this point, a 1 seed is still very much possible. The problem is that it will almost certainly have to be in the Midwest or West region. It is hard to see us catching up to either UVa or Villanova.

CDu
01-27-2018, 03:40 PM
Did he make a normal basketball play, or did he lift his elbow higher than it needed to be? It should have been reviewed to determine that. Not automatically dismissed because of "cylinder".

He made a normal basketball play. Look, I realize folks hate losing. But that was a normal basketball play. Allen was out of control, falling on top of Guy, and as he fell over Guy his face ran into Guy’s elbow. You could have had a review, and they would have said the same thing. It was the right call.

flyingdutchdevil
01-27-2018, 03:40 PM
At this point, a 1 seed is still very much possible. The problem is that it will almost certainly have to be in the Midwest or West region. It is hard to see us catching up to either UVa or Villanova.

Nova is getting a 1-seed. Thatís not really debatable at this point. They are a great team in a mediocre conference.

And if UVA continues playing like this, theyíre also pretty much guaranteed a 1-seed as well, even with 1-2 ACC losses and not capturing the ACC tourney title.

Congrats on UVA - the best team in the ACC.

jhmoss1812
01-27-2018, 03:40 PM
Just wanted to stop by and congratulate you guys on an a great game. Those were two very good teams out there today and the intensity of the game was incredible. Carter and Bagley are unreal and I thought Duval did a great job getting to the basket. We were fortunate Grayson and Duval were cold from the outside and that K didn't switch to the zone earlier on. We really struggled to hit shots down the stretch. I have a feeling we will meet again and that game should be as great as this one is. In the end, one regular season game doesn't define a season. I am proud of my team for hanging in there and gutting out a win. But Duke and UVA both have the potential to go deep this year. But anything can happen in a single elimination tournament. Good luck the rest of the way. I always appreciate the dialogue and discussion on this board.

ipatent
01-27-2018, 03:42 PM
Our team dug themselves a hole in the first half, it could have been a comfortable win if it wasn't for that and poor FT shooting. Give Virginia credit for making plays down the stretch, they are a good team. Their defense was as good as advertised.

CameronDuke
01-27-2018, 03:42 PM
Just realized Duke hung 41 points on Virginia in the second half. Gotta be a record for Virginia opponents this year. I'd be shocked if Virginia has given up 41 points in a half this season other than today. Someone smarter than me, can you confirm? And Duke had a good shot at about 45 or so points if they would have converted a few more front ends of 1-1s from the free throw line.

scottdude8
01-27-2018, 03:43 PM
At this point, a 1 seed is still very much possible. The problem is that it will almost certainly have to be in the Midwest or West region. It is hard to see us catching up to either UVa or Villanova.

I second this wholeheartedly. The Big 12, SEC, and PAC all shouldn't get No. 1 seeds this year (due to Kansas' struggles/everyone beating each other in the Big 12's case, and due to massive down years for the conference overall in the other two cases). MSU has played themselves out of a No. 1 seed IMHO (I think they'll drop at least one more game down the stretch the way they've been playing). Purdue looks incredible (even though my Wolverines should've had them twice, haha), but with a down year in the B1G if they get upset a couple times, or lose early in the tourney, they could fall too considering how they struggled in the non-conference.

All that means that two No. 1 seeds are solid right now, Villanova and Virginia. Purdue has a decent hold on the third. The last is VERY much up for grabs. And don't forget that we still have a lot of opportunities to enhance our resume (i.e. two games against UNC and the ACC Tourney) which a lot of teams won't.

flyingdutchdevil
01-27-2018, 03:44 PM
Just wanted to stop by and congratulate you guys on an a great game. Those were two very good teams out there today and the intensity of the game was incredible. Carter and Bagley are unreal and I thought Duval did a great job getting to the basket. We were fortunate Grayson and Duval were cold from the outside and that K didn't switch to the zone earlier on. We really struggled to hit shots down the stretch. I have a feeling we will meet again and that game should be as great as this one is. In the end, one regular season game doesn't define a season. I am proud of my team for hanging in there and gutting out a win. But Duke and UVA both have the potential to go deep this year. But anything can happen in a single elimination tournament. Good luck the rest of the way. I always appreciate the dialogue and discussion on this board.

By Duval you meant Trent.

Congrats on the win. Your defense is superb and your offense in underrated. Looking forward to meeting you in the ACC tournament.

Never, ever bet against Bennett in the reg season. Duke may be pre-season #1 in the country next year, but UVA will probably win the ACC reg season.

azzefkram
01-27-2018, 03:44 PM
Not so worked up over this loss. UVA is a really good and really well coached team. You can't spot the #2 team in the country a 10pt halftime lead (especially one that does such a good job controlling the pace) and expect to win. Duke had too many unforced errors. Great games by Marvin and Wendell.

It's depressing to see how some here want to pile on Trevon. His overall game was no worse than Gary's or Grayson's.

arnie
01-27-2018, 03:45 PM
Grayson should be better- but he has made some important plays and passes in conference. The loss of his shot is a mystery.

He may be exhausted, I certainly donít know. The bench played 6 minutes today. A K record? Reminds me of Gamecock 60s/70s b-ball and Bobby Cremins style coaching.

richardjackson199
01-27-2018, 03:45 PM
Just wanted to stop by and congratulate you guys on an a great game. Those were two very good teams out there today and the intensity of the game was incredible. Carter and Bagley are unreal and I thought Duval did a great job getting to the basket. We were fortunate Grayson and Duval were cold from the outside and that K didn't switch to the zone earlier on. We really struggled to hit shots down the stretch. I have a feeling we will meet again and that game should be as great as this one is. In the end, one regular season game doesn't define a season. I am proud of my team for hanging in there and gutting out a win. But Duke and UVA both have the potential to go deep this year. But anything can happen in a single elimination tournament. Good luck the rest of the way. I always appreciate the dialogue and discussion on this board.

Congrats. Great win for your team in Cameron. They earned that W.

Hopefully Duke learns from it and gets better. More basketball to play

DukieInBrasil
01-27-2018, 03:45 PM
Agree. Duval had a nice 2nd half overall and was getting to the rim. Even the turnover pass wasn't a terrible idea. I'm sure we were coached to try to push ball up the floor before UVA could set up their packline. I was upset at the time, but Duval was trying to get us a fastbreak layup there, and he can make that pass. He has made it many times. UVA got that one.

I was hopeful at the time, but the noncall on the elbow at the end against Grayson was right call. Player has right to vertical cylinder space, and referee didn't need to make a game-changing call there. UVA had earned it and we didn't. Congrats to them.

That blown call when it was out on them near the end hurt. They hit a 3 on that possession.

Nice comeback, but we didn't play well enough for 40 minutes to win. We must start hitting free throws and stop falling behind double digits in 2nd half to good teams to have a successful tourney run. Hopefully we learn from this one and get better.

totally disagree. that's a good pass when your guy is all alone, or at least with no defenders super close to him. but the time the ball got to Carter there were 3 UVA defenders around him. There was no way that pass was going to be caught and controlled. Had Duval just dribbled up the court quickly Duke quite likely scores. Seeing as how we lost by 2 points, one could argue that that play lost Duke the game, as much as any other single play did.
Additionally, he committed a horrible turnover on that inbounds pass prior to that, on Duke's end line. Two huge momentum swinging mistakes in the span of a couple of minutes. He made lots of other good plays, indicated by 8 assists.

jipops
01-27-2018, 03:46 PM
My biggest concern coming out of this game is Grayson, not Duval. We need him in games like this one and going forward. But recently, including today, he's had some no-shows. This isn't boding well for us. This team can't afford to rely only on Trent to produce anything from the perimeter. We knew before the season there wasn't going to be any depth at all on this team. Grayson has to be the senior that carries us. And lately he is barely at a 3rd team all conference level...or maybe not even that.

Hauerwas
01-27-2018, 03:48 PM
UVA is like playing Navy in football. They set the game back 50 years. Regardless when you only score 63 points AT HOME thatís a poor performance. Not sure what to say about Sr Grayson Allenís 5 point performance. Just tough to win when K utterly refuses to play a bench. But hey he hasnít changed in 30 years so why start trying to develop an 8 man rotation now.

richardjackson199
01-27-2018, 03:49 PM
totally disagree. that's a good pass when your guy is all alone, or at least with no defenders super close to him. but the time the ball got to Carter there were 3 UVA defenders around him. There was no way that pass was going to be caught and controlled. Had Duval just dribbled up the court quickly Duke quite likely scores. Seeing as how we lost by 2 points, one could argue that that play lost Duke the game, as much as any other single play did.

Fair enough. It was a very unfortunate play and I wish he hadn't thrown that ball.

No one play decides the outcome of a 40 minute game (unless you're Chris Webber calling timeout). Duval made a mistake there, but he also had many great plays in the 2nd half scoring on the packline. I love Duval as our pg and really wish he would get more support from our fans.

Troublemaker
01-27-2018, 03:50 PM
At this point, a 1 seed is still very much possible. The problem is that it will almost certainly have to be in the Midwest or West region. It is hard to see us catching up to either UVa or Villanova.

Midwest Region (Omaha) would be fine. Same time zone as Houston, where we won the region in 2015. I just don't want to head out West.

Of course, the most important thing is to have a resume deserving of a 1 seed first. We've got to finish strong and let the seeding chips fall where they may. 27-4 (14-4) and an ACC championship is doable for this team. I'll be very anti-Purdue the rest of the season.

WakeDevil
01-27-2018, 03:51 PM
Donít see too many non freshmen making that mistake in that situation. A freshmen trying to make a play that wasnít worth the risk.

I am sure he has been playing organized basketball for ten years. It is not a freshman mistake. It is a mistake.

Ian
01-27-2018, 03:51 PM
People need to stop talking about the the switch from m2m to zone as that big a deal.

In the first half UVA scored 32 points on an efficienty of 98.2, in the 2nd half they scored 33 points on an efficiency of 103.1.

Our defense was equally effective in both halves. The difference was our offense in the first half was 68.3 and in the 2nd half was 127.3.

It just looked like our defense was better in the 2nd half because we were scoring and making a comeback on UVA's empty possessions in the 2nd half, and in the first half we were doing nothing with UVA's empty offensive possessions.

Defense was not the reason we lost this game.

DavidBenAkiva
01-27-2018, 03:52 PM
Duke showed a lot of determination to get back into this game in the second half and even take the lead. A couple of things turned out differently, and Duke might have walked out of this with a victory. Against the #2 team in the country in late January, that's a sign that this Duke team can compete for a National Championship.

Next Play.

Some key takeaways from me:

1. The defense keeps getting better. People think that UVA can't score because their pace is so slow. That is not the case. They are really efficient. And Duke held them to 26-66 (39.4%) shooting and just 6-22 from 3 (27.3%). Those are great numbers against a team that features three superb shooters in Guy, Hall, and Jerome.

2. Free throw woes. Missing the front-end of the one-and-ones on three occasions - twice by Wendell Carter, Jr. and once by Trevon Duval - really, really hurt. Just hitting two of those and then maybe making the back end of one of those and Duke has to have the game tied or even a lead late in the final minute. With the lead, Duval doesn't throw the ball down the court, a play that really hurt our chances. We make free throws and we walk out of this game with a win.

3. Grayson (or Gary Trent, Jr.) need to step up and now. Duke's big men dominated. There were few moments when the guards showed up as well. There was a key sequence late in the game when Gary had a wide-open look at the 3 from the top of the key. It rimmed out while UVA nailed a 3 on the other end. That was a 6-point swing. If Duke was going to win today, shooting better than 4-15 (26.7%) was necessary.

4. Frontcourt Dominance. Marvin Bagley III and Wendell Carter, Jr. both had impressive performances against the vaunted Virginia defense. That needs to be remembered. Coming into the game, many were wondering how UVA was going to slow down the duo of Duke big men. They didn't. It was only at the free-throw line that Duke's big men looked mortal. Isaiah Wilkins is noted for his outstanding defense, but we was a non-factor in the game today. And Wendell was able to control the paint pretty well on defense, too, accumulating 4 blocked shots.

rickshawboycall911
01-27-2018, 03:53 PM
For folks once again piling on Duval, he made a couple mistakes, but I thought he was still more of a net positive than our senior captain. .

WHAT game were you watching??? I would give a plethora of reasons why he is a net negative player but that is apparently a bannable offense around here. The less gifted jerome took him to school. With his physical gifts he should be reaking havoc on defesne . hes not!

peteandpete
01-27-2018, 03:54 PM
Again, the rule of thumb at our house is that if you had made half of what you missed in a close game (which in this game would have still been an average shooting day at the line), it would have changed the outcome. The equivalent of 5-15 since we missed four, I think, front ends...in our own gym. A great effort against the best team in the league with the chance for a win literally in our hands at the FT line and we couldn't make enough FTs.

duke79
01-27-2018, 03:55 PM
My take on the game is that experience and lesser talent sometimes beats more talent but less experience!

freshmanjs
01-27-2018, 03:57 PM
Again, the rule of thumb at our house is that if you had made half of what you missed in a close game (which in this game would have still been an average shooting day at the line), it would have changed the outcome. The equivalent of 5-15 since we missed four, I think, front ends...in our own gym. A great effort against the best team in the league with the chance for a win literally in our hands at the FT line and we couldn't make enough FTs.

Free throws and turnovers hurt badly, but I don't understand the rule of thumb. Obviously, if you scored more points, you would have a better chance of winning...

Bluegrassdevil1
01-27-2018, 03:57 PM
My biggest concern coming out of this game is Grayson, not Duval. We need him in games like this one and going forward. But recently, including today, he's had some no-shows. This isn't boding well for us. This team can't afford to rely only on Trent to produce anything from the perimeter. We knew before the season there wasn't going to be any depth at all on this team. Grayson has to be the senior that carries us. And lately he is barely at a 3rd team all conference level...or maybe not even that.

This is an astute observation. Personal (infraction obtaining) opinions aside, I just hope Allen finishes his career in a mode which makes him happy, content, and proud of his career.

Saratoga2
01-27-2018, 03:57 PM
He may be exhausted, I certainly donít know. The bench played 6 minutes today. A K record? Reminds me of Gamecock 60s/70s b-ball and Bobby Cremins style coaching.

Our subs were ineffective in the MTM but may have been better in the zone. O'Connell has more length and also has a pretty good shot.

I am not one to dump on our guards for poor shooting from 3 against Virginia as they guarded the perimeter very well. That said, Grayson's shot has not been on even when open of late. We could use more from him.

wavedukefan70s
01-27-2018, 04:00 PM
We could have won.made some bonehead plays.didnt get some calls. sometimes we do.i do not like that style of play.could be v.t ,hanstravel or whoomever .i love the beauty of the game.agilty and quickness.gracefully powering your way to the rim.
I'd like to think we learned a lot from this .
if nothing else we got tougher.

jipops
01-27-2018, 04:00 PM
At this point, a 1 seed is still very much possible. The problem is that it will almost certainly have to be in the Midwest or West region. It is hard to see us catching up to either UVa or Villanova.

Purdue seems a likely other with only OSU at home and then Mich St left. I wouldn't be surprised if Sparty drops a couple more.

Kansas has some losable games left and that will be something to pay attention to.

I feel like we'll drop at least 2 more looking at the schedule. So can a 5 loss team get a 1 seed this season? Maybe not if one of those losses is BC.

Troublemaker
01-27-2018, 04:00 PM
Not so worked up over this loss. UVA is a really good and really well coached team. You can't spot the #2 team in the country a 10pt halftime lead (especially one that does such a good job controlling the pace) and expect to win. Duke had too many unforced errors. Great games by Marvin and Wendell.

It's depressing to see how some here want to pile on Trevon. His overall game was no worse than Gary's or Grayson's.

I agree with you in a vacuum but we came back on them so fast today. It was tied with 14 minutes left in the second half.

It must be said that UVA just out-played us down the stretch, which hurts. We missed free throws, we made some mistakes in the zone, and we had some careless turnovers down the stretch.

Ian
01-27-2018, 04:00 PM
Our subs were ineffective in the MTM but may have been better in the zone. O'Connell has more length and also has a pretty good shot.



That's actually a very good point. Maybe if we stay in zone we could have played the bench more and allowed our starter to be fresher down the stretch.

duke2x
01-27-2018, 04:00 PM
At this point, a 1 seed is still very much possible. The problem is that it will almost certainly have to be in the Midwest or West region. It is hard to see us catching up to either UVa or Villanova.

It won't be Midwest. Purdue has the early lead on that with an extremely light schedule left. They almost have to lose to MSU twice (@Purdue, B10 tournament) to facilitate much discussion. The Big 12 champ is probably #2 there.

My best case scenario today is the old debate about being #1 West or #2 East. Do you want to play Arizona in L.A. (2011) again or Villanova in Boston (2009) again?

I said I would be happy with a 1 point win, but that 3 with about 2 minutes to go was the clincher. We were outplayed too much in the first half and deserved the loss. There were a lot of correctable mistakes today, but I still think we're the favorites in Brooklyn to repeat as ACC Champions. Now the quick turnaround to ND.

ncexnyc
01-27-2018, 04:01 PM
UVA is like playing Navy in football. They set the game back 50 years. Regardless when you only score 63 points AT HOME thatís a poor performance. Not sure what to say about Sr Grayson Allenís 5 point performance. Just tough to win when K utterly refuses to play a bench. But hey he hasnít changed in 30 years so why start trying to develop an 8 man rotation now.

Not sure who you wanted to see off of the bench based on what little we did see of Javin and Alex.

It seemed like Javin picked up a foul within 30 seconds of coming into the game and Alex looked just like he did against Miami, in that he wasn't up to the moment.

WHOneedsSOX
01-27-2018, 04:03 PM
Duke's post entry passing it pretty poor. They look and then look again and then look again and then either throw it away or throw it after the defense has set and the Duke post player has been pushed another 3-4 feet from the basket. And then if the post guy gets the ball he's immediately doubled, dribbles out, and then passes to the wing player making the post entry pointless. I'm not saying Duke should be scoring every single post touch but it has to be more effective. Someone needs to cut or the post player needs to make a better cross court pass to a shooter. Okafor did it all the time. O'Connell cuts all the time and gets rewarded. Trent does it every now and then. Duval can't shoot so he should be cutting.

jimmymax
01-27-2018, 04:03 PM
one piece of good news: the home winning streak against unranked opponents remains intact!

jipops
01-27-2018, 04:06 PM
Purdue seems a likely other with only OSU at home and then Mich St left. I wouldn't be surprised if Sparty drops a couple more.

Kansas has some losable games left and that will be something to pay attention to.

I feel like we'll drop at least 2 more looking at the schedule. So can a 5 loss team get a 1 seed this season? Maybe not if one of those losses is BC.

Hmm, the cheats were a 6 reg season loss team as a 1 last season.

dukelifer
01-27-2018, 04:07 PM
I agree with you in a vacuum but we came back on them so fast today. It was tied with 14 minutes left in the second half.

It must be said that UVA just out-played us down the stretch, which hurts. We missed free throws, we made some mistakes in the zone, and we had some careless turnovers down the stretch.

Agreed- this had nothing to do with the first half. Duke had a 5 point lead late with FTs. Duke was in the bonus and at home. That is as good as it gets. Just did not get great guard play at the end.

Troublemaker
01-27-2018, 04:07 PM
That's actually a very good point. Maybe if we stay in zone we could have played the bench more and allowed our starter to be fresher down the stretch.

The reason we played zero bench minutes in the second half (I think) was BECAUSE we played zone. Zone coaches think they can play the starters more because the zone doesn't take as much energy to play and it avoids fouls better. That's why Boeheim has an ultra-short bench.

DarkstarWahoo
01-27-2018, 04:08 PM
Lauren Brownlow tweeted that OíConnell has had the flu for three days.

Dub
01-27-2018, 04:10 PM
Iím almost at the point where I hope Trevon has to sit out a game or two so that his skeptics can appreciate all that he brings to the table. Heís the only person on our team that can create consistently off the dribble. Oftentimes that leads to spectacular layup finishes, a lob to one of the bigs, or a kick out 3 to a wide open shooter. Sometimes it leads to turnovers or missed layups. Thatís who he is as a player. Forcing him to be something else is fools gold. His reputation which made him a top 10 player was his athleticism and ability to finish at the rim. He has the keys to a Ferrari now and that has to be incredibly difficult given the impossible expectations. I for one enjoy the kids game and will continue to support him as he continues to develop.

wavedukefan70s
01-27-2018, 04:11 PM
Maybe our bench just hasn't developed enough.we are so talented even in our losses we have a chance.so no bench time .because of crunch time.no blow outs either.our starters are putting in major minutes.tiredness probably contributed to some mistakes also.grayson must have a underlying injury to his hand or wrist.i see him flex it a few times a game.anyone else notice this?

Troublemaker
01-27-2018, 04:11 PM
Agreed- this had nothing to do with the first half. Duke had a 5 point lead late with FTs. Duke was in the bonus and at home. That is as good as it gets. Just did not get great guard play at the end.

Right, with the obvious caveat that if we had played a better 1st half, we could've had a double-digit lead later in the game. The first half was still a problem for sure.

WHOneedsSOX
01-27-2018, 04:11 PM
Hmm, the cheats were a 6 reg season loss team as a 1 last season.

They won the ACC regular season championship though which is probably why they got the 1 seed. Obviously they didn't win the ACC tournament though. Virginia very likely will win the ACC regular season championship so that's out for Duke. If Duke finishes with 4-5 losses and wins the ACC tournament then they should get a 1 seed.

dukelifer
01-27-2018, 04:16 PM
Right, with the obvious caveat that if we had played a better 1st half, we could've had a double-digit lead later in the game. The first half was still a problem for sure.

More likely would have been their comeback. This game was going to be a tossup. Duke had their run in the second half

KandG
01-27-2018, 04:16 PM
Kudos to the Hoos for an incredible effort and hanging in the game even after we delivered our inevitable run at the start of the second half. Especially tough of them to do so after Hunter left the game with the injured ankle. Really, really well coached team.

You had to figure Bennett knew his team couldn't really hold Duke to two 20 point halves, and that he would have to win by frustrating Duke in small game segments of 5 to 7 minutes, forcing the freshmen into mistakes, and needing two or three big breaks along the way. He got all that and then some.

In my opinion, the most fatal stretch was when we were up 51-48 with 8:08 left -- at that point we had scored 29 points in less than 12 minutes against the number 1 defense in the country in the second half. We only scored 7 points in the next 8 minutes, and the final basket right after that was a Bagley desperation 3 pointer. We had Virginia in the bonus with plenty of time left, and Carter missed the front end of two one-and-ones and Duval missed the front end of the other one-and-one (and Carter missed the rebound off that miss). Plus another one of those maddening high-low passes from Carter to Bagley that always seem to fly out of bounds (though we also got a lucky 3 pointer out of it early in the half)

On top of that, Jerome's super long three after we turned the ball over with a chance to tie was certainly fortunate (though a ballsy shot). Again, all credit to Virginia -- they just seemed a step ahead in terms of loose balls and composure down the stretch (though their own missed FTs opened the door just a crack).

What probably helped Virginia make the big plays down the stretch, apart from our own inexperience, was a total lack of contribution from the bench players. O'Connell and DuLaurier looked just a bit overwhelmed in their (very) limited minutes -- a shame, because Javin in particular I think could be really useful in these types of physical games if he can rein in his fouling. (Sounds like Alex has been under the weather, per another comment upthread) As a result, the starters showed some fatigue on some of the 50-50 plays and closeouts toward the end.

I can't say I'm with the folks piling on Duval (outside of that fatal full-court turnover pass to WC) -- I thought he was quite good at the head of the zone for most of the second half, and his ability to get past Virginia's guards fueled our best stretches of offense. The lob to Bagley off the hesitation move was a sign of growth: so many of his worst turnovers have come when he just puts his head down crashing into the lane hoping something will happen. Trevon learning to read the defense and varying his attack will pay dividends later in the season as he continues to improve.

OTOH, more needs to be done to make Grayson a factor, whether that comes from Grayson himself or the coaching staff giving him more touches and looks to draw out Virginia's defenders. He and Trent were a little too invisible as we kept trying to force feed our bigs, though again Virginia deserves a lot of credit for that.

Losing this one hurts, but this loss felt like the 2015 team's losses to Notre Dame: painfully revealing of the team's weaknesses and inexperience, but something that fuels further growth. I'm looking forward to seeing that the rest of the season, and especially hoping that involves more productive minutes for bench players and better FT shooting.

Troublemaker
01-27-2018, 04:18 PM
People need to stop talking about the the switch from m2m to zone as that big a deal.

In the first half UVA scored 32 points on an efficienty of 98.2, in the 2nd half they scored 33 points on an efficiency of 103.1.

Our defense was equally effective in both halves. The difference was our offense in the first half was 68.3 and in the 2nd half was 127.3.

It just looked like our defense was better in the 2nd half because we were scoring and making a comeback on UVA's empty possessions in the 2nd half, and in the first half we were doing nothing with UVA's empty offensive possessions.

Defense was not the reason we lost this game.

I'll have to go back and watch but I think the stats are slightly misleading here.

In the first half, we just couldn't stick with them around the off-ball screens (a pregame concern of mine), and they missed a lot of wide-open threes. We were lucky to only be down 10 as poorly as we played on both ends.

In the second half, UVA also missed open shots, but they were open midrange shots. Far more preferable to give those up mathematically, as you know. (One of the most overstated things in college basketball is the idea that the weakness of a zone is a free-throw line jumper, as if that shot is efficient).

With that said, we can't pretend that UVA hadn't figured something out with DeAndre Hunter attacking the zone using drives from the free throw line. UVA is a good zone offense team. If we had played another half of zone and DeAndre hadn't gotten injured, who knows how it would've gone for us.

Wahoo2000
01-27-2018, 04:21 PM
few things from a visitor perspective:

1. Some Duke fans upthread were upset about other Duke fans' complaining about the refs, calling UVA dirty, being "classless", etc. Just FYI- you guys have WAY less of that than just about any other fanbase, and I'd think you're aliens if there weren't SOME level of venting in-game (chat or board/thread). Still, I'm pretty much 100% sure that this board has the least "homerific" fans of any rival board I visit on any regular basis. You guys are awesome as a whole, and even the people complaining I don't look at as classless/whiners/etc. Competitive fire can make you say things/see things/believe things that you wouldn't normally if emotions could be checked at the door. But what is sport without emotion? :-)

2. Interestingly, I don't think either team played their "A" game outside of:
A) about a 10-12 min stretch of the first half for UVA where we were getting high quality shots and converting them, and REALLY limiting Duke offensively at the same time
B) about a 6-8 min stretch of the second half where Duke seemed to score almost EVERY trip down the floor.
Other than that, pretty uneven by both teams. We flubbed a lot more rotations than we usually do, especially on post-doubles. We were like 2-13 on WIIIIIDE open 10-12ft 2pt jumpers. Those have to go down at about a 50-60% clip if you want to beat a good team (usually). Duke had a lot of unforced errors. Maybe PARTIALLY forced based on just how our D tries to make you feel uncomfortable and sometimes overly careful (bad post entry passes keeping it away from defender that go out b/c offensive player was trying to back down/get better position) and sometimes press a little (Duval forcing a pass late because you REALLY want to get those easy opportunities if there's a chance for a leak out). Both teams shot poorly from 3. Both teams missed multiple front ends of 1&1s. Just a little sloppy overall on both sides, it looked to me like both teams were REALLY amped for the matchup and just were pressing a touch more than usual. Almost a 2nd weekend tournament game feel.

3. Bagley is just insane. Hunter actually seemed to do the best against him, even better than Wilkins. Still, there was no one that was really going to keep him in check totally. The guys who can do that don't play in college - and there are probably only a VERY small handful of even NBA defenders who could really shut him down/limit him as of today. Carter is an animal (in a good way). So impressed with his physicality combo'd with great hands (sick catch on that one dump down that got pinballed around before he snatched it for an easy dunk) and agility. He and Diakite had a mini-chippy moment, but I don't think it was a big deal to either guy. Just a "I'm not backing down, YOU back down" moment.

4. The zone to start the second half was a great move by K. Especially considering that we're best vs the zone with hunter in the middle, and K knows that Bennett doesn't like to bring any subs for the first 5-6 min of the half, so he decided to make Wilkins or Salt beat them. Wilkins absolutely bricked like 4 wiiiide open midrange jumpers (he's better than that for sure, but maybe foul trouble and limited minutes early had him tight/cold). Us getting great looks and just bricking them seemed to erode our confidence/play on the other end there for a bit as well and THAT, combined with some stellar plays & lucky plays (the lob that went in AND counted with the foul on Wilkins boxing out under the basket???) allowed Duke back into the game. Still, the zone as simply a "shift of gears" was a nice move that turned the momentum of the game.

5. I cannot believe how much better DeAndre Hunter has become in the last few weeks. He wasn't even a consistent double-digit MINUTE guy back during the noncon schedule. Now? He's probably our second best all around player next to Hall. Usually guys in Bennett's system don't really hit their stride until at LEAST midway through their second year playing. Hunter DID redshirt, but usually it doesn't have this effect on fast-tracking development. If Hunter/Guy/Jerome are all here for 2 full seasons after this one, I like how that future is shaking up - especially considering how much guys like Harris/Brogdon/Anderson tend to improve into their Jr and Sr years. If that trio makes similar improvements the next couple of years? Wow.

6. I'd still absolutely put Duke in the mix for a 1 seed. Maybe dropping off that line this week, but you could easily go 8-2/9-1/10-0 second half (and beat St Johns) of the league schedule. Worst case is 26-5(13-5 ACC, probably 2-seed). I think that is right in the middle of the mix for a 1 seed - an ACC tourney win would lock it up, maybe even overtake another 1-seed squad for the East or South region. Even without winning the tourney, a 1-seed isn't out of play - crazy stuff happens with other teams that time of year.


Good luck to you guys the rest of the way - unless we meet again, of course! ;-)

Saratoga2
01-27-2018, 04:21 PM
Lauren Brownlow tweeted that OíConnell has had the flu for three days.

Thats interesting as I thought Alex might actually help us in the zone defense. Maybe he just didn't have it tonight. Trevon is a capable ball handler and a quicker better ball handler than Grayson. His issues tend to be when he forces the play and makes turnovers, but then Grayson had a couple of those as well today.

JD for Three!
01-27-2018, 04:22 PM
Any game with so pushing and shoving and grabbing is really unpleasant to watch. There should have been many more calls but there werenít. We donít control that. There also should have been many more free throws made by Duke but there werenít. That was in our control. There should have been a few more threes made by Duke but there werenít. That was in our control. As great as Bagley and Carter can be, when you constantly go inside to them for twos and then give up threes on defense, your not going to have a great outcome. We have to control that.
Virginia did what they needed to do, and we didnít. Itís not on any one player. It was a team loss.
Am I worried, not so much. I think we will make a good NCAA run regardless of seed or location.
Virginia may well win the conference and get a 1 seed. I donít see them as a team that is built to go as deep in the tourney. Consistent officiating, a good three point shooting team or a good physical team (like SC for us last year) will be their challenge.

azzefkram
01-27-2018, 04:24 PM
I agree with you in a vacuum but we came back on them so fast today. It was tied with 14 minutes left in the second half.

It must be said that UVA just out-played us down the stretch, which hurts. We missed free throws, we made some mistakes in the zone, and we had some careless turnovers down the stretch.

Except instead of using those six minutes of really good basketball to extend a lead Duke spent it getting back to tied. You can't basically punt the first half and expect good things to happen. It compresses your margin for error too much.

I agree that UVA outplayed us down the stretch.

Saratoga2
01-27-2018, 04:26 PM
Except instead of using those six minutes of really good basketball to extend a lead Duke spent it getting back to tied. You can't basically punt the first half and expect good things to happen. It compresses your margin for error too much.

I agree that UVA outplayed us down the stretch.

Were we out coached?

dukelifer
01-27-2018, 04:26 PM
Any game with so pushing and shoving and grabbing is really unpleasant to watch. There should have been many more calls but there werenít. We donít control that. There also should have been many more free throws made by Duke but there werenít. That was in our control. There should have been a few more threes made by Duke but there werenít. That was in our control. As great as Bagley and Carter can be, when you constantly go inside to them for twos and then give up threes on defense, your not going to have a great outcome. We have to control that.
Virginia did what they needed to do, and we didnít. Itís not on any one player. It was a team loss.
Am I worried, not so much. I think we will make a good NCAA run regardless of seed or location.
Virginia may well win the conference and get a 1 seed. I donít see them as a team that is built to go as deep in the tourney. Consistent officiating, a good three point shooting team or a good physical team (like SC for us last year) will be their challenge.
They have a huge Monkey on their backs. They could do it but they have a history of underperforming and that gets into playersí heads.

Ian
01-27-2018, 04:28 PM
I'll have to go back and watch but I think the stats are slightly misleading here.

In the first half, we just couldn't stick with them around the off-ball screens (a pregame concern of mine), and they missed a lot of wide-open threes. We were lucky to only be down 10 as poorly as we played on both ends.

In the second half, UVA also missed open shots, but they were open midrange shots. Far more preferable to give those up mathematically, as you know. (One of the most overstated things in college basketball is the idea that the weakness of a zone is a free-throw line jumper, as if that shot is efficient).

With that said, we can't pretend that UVA hadn't figured something out with DeAndre Hunter attacking the zone using drives from the free throw line. UVA is a good zone offense team. If we had played another half of zone and DeAndre hadn't gotten injured, who knows how it would've gone for us.

Bottom line is I don't think we lost this game due to coaching or scheming, we lost this game on execution (especially at the FT line) and decision making. I don't think we turned this game around because of the swtich to zone. We turned the game around on better offensive execution. But faltered down the stretch because of few possession where we didn't execute or made poor decision.

azzefkram
01-27-2018, 04:35 PM
Were we out coached?

Maybe a bit but probably out executed by a more experienced team. They had a run of really good offensive sets that had them either shooting at the rim or wide open three pointers. During that time Duke had a boatload of empty possessions on the other end. Maybe a switch to the zone at some point in the first half changes things. UVA seemed to be running Trevon, Gary and Grayson ragged.

Troublemaker
01-27-2018, 04:36 PM
Bottom line is I don't think we lost this game due to coaching or scheming, we lost this game on execution (especially at the FT line) and decision making. I don't think we turned this game around because of the swtich to zone. We turned the game around on better offensive execution. But faltered down the stretch because of few possession where we didn't execute or made poor decision.

I largely agree.

I'm just saying if we had stuck with m2m in the second half, UVA would've won much easily. They probably start hitting those wide-open threes and continue to get layups as well. The zone was important from that point of view because the zone only gave them wide-open midrange 2s until UVA found something with Hunter, who could drive and finish.

MChambers
01-27-2018, 04:41 PM
In the second half, UVA also missed open shots, but they were open midrange shots. Far more preferable to give those up mathematically, as you know. (One of the most overstated things in college basketball is the idea that the weakness of a zone is a free-throw line jumper, as if that shot is efficient).

After the 1978 NCAA championship game, some of us will always be in fear of the free throw line jumper.

Seriously, I agree with you, but often getting the ball into the free throw line area opens things up for other players down low or on the wing.

plimnko
01-27-2018, 04:42 PM
Bottom line is I don't think we lost this game due to coaching or scheming, we lost this game on execution (especially at the FT line) and decision making. I don't think we turned this game around because of the swtich to zone. We turned the game around on better offensive execution. But faltered down the stretch because of few possession where we didn't execute or made poor decision.

i agree......i just hope the team learned from their mistakes. not be so quick to force something and execute better. AND PRACTICE FREE THROWS!

DukieInBrasil
01-27-2018, 04:45 PM
In each of Duke's 3 losses this year, we've been down double digits in the second half, come back to take the lead, and then faltered at 'winning time". Today that was the final 5 minutes after we were tied. There was a stretch there when this team was playing smart, passionate, intelligent ball. And it got undone by having brief flashes of the opposite of those things sprinkled in thru the last few minutes.
There's nothing inherently flawed about this team that it doesn't have the ability to overcome, except for brain farts. We have a hard time overcoming brain farts at "winning time", as i think nearly all teams would.
If there's a rematch between Duke and UVA this year, i think that Duke would be able to win that game, because this team showed that it can solve UVA's defense and that our own defense held them to <40% FGs. Even though this team brain farted a couple of times in the stretch, it was that middle section of the 1st half that decided this game. The Fr. just didn't respond very well to UVA's disciplined, tough, physical, "touchy feely" defense. I don't think that they'll be surprised by that in a rematch.
Also, K has to abandon the m2m defense, this team cannot beat good teams with it.

weezie
01-27-2018, 04:46 PM
Were we out coached?

No. Tony knows how lucky he got down the stretch. One three drops or three free throws and we win that game. Couldn't quite figure out why the ball was taken out of Grayson's hands midway through the second but maybe they were trying to free him up to shoot.

Can't figure out how hoos manage to clog the paint so close to the basket but if we hit a three, that all goes away. They are masterful at the sly grab and knee push.

I think the freshmen made the fatal error of assuming Cameron would win that game. Same with the kind of "meh" crowd.

At the end, Grayson was talking to each of them clapping, encouraging, reassuring. Each and every player, he looked them in the eye and said, it can be done. It was truly a captain's moment and he left his heart on that floor. He's so wonderful. I am so proud of him and boy, how I'll miss him. His second half transition defense was an absolute "lock down, shove it and I'm out of here" beauty.

The freshman blinked. From inside Cameron, it looked like they were insulted at the holding, grabbing and shoving. These weren't great refs but they wouldn't let the game be decided on a tech.

Troublemaker
01-27-2018, 04:48 PM
After the 1978 NCAA championship game, some of us will always be in fear of the free throw line jumper.

Seriously, I agree with you, but often getting the ball into the free throw line area opens things up for other players down low or on the wing.

Oh, I agree. The real danger is the pass from the free-throw line or if, like Hunter, you can attack the center 1-on-1 and finish. But I'll happily give up open free-throw line jumpers, 1978 notwithstanding.

DukieInBrasil
01-27-2018, 04:50 PM
Kudos to the Hoos for an incredible effort and hanging in the game even after we delivered our inevitable run at the start of the second half. Especially tough of them to do so after Hunter left the game with the injured ankle. Really, really well coached team.

You had to figure Bennett knew his team couldn't really hold Duke to two 20 point halves, and that he would have to win by frustrating Duke in small game segments of 5 to 7 minutes, forcing the freshmen into mistakes, and needing two or three big breaks along the way. He got all that and then some.

In my opinion, the most fatal stretch was when we were up 51-48 with 8:08 left -- at that point we had scored 29 points in less than 12 minutes against the number 1 defense in the country in the second half. We only scored 7 points in the next 8 minutes, and the final basket right after that was a Bagley desperation 3 pointer. We had Virginia in the bonus with plenty of time left, and Carter missed the front end of two one-and-ones and Duval missed the front end of the other one-and-one (and Carter missed the rebound off that miss). Plus another one of those maddening high-low passes from Carter to Bagley that always seem to fly out of bounds (though we also got a lucky 3 pointer out of it early in the half)



in the last few games, Carter has thrown that lob to Bagley A) off the rim B) in the goal and C) out of bounds or for a turnover multiple times. I think it's time to stop having Carter do that. Bring Carter out high, and if they leave him open he can shoot the 3, but he should pass to a guard for the pass to Bagley, b/c he is not doing a good job of it.

CoachJ10
01-27-2018, 04:52 PM
in the last few games, Carter has thrown that lob to Bagley A) off the rim B) in the goal and C) out of bounds or for a turnover multiple times. I think it's time to stop having Carter do that. Bring Carter out high, and if they leave him open he can shoot the 3, but he should pass to a guard for the pass to Bagley, b/c he is not doing a good job of it.

I agree, thatís why I wanted Grayson initiating that offense down the stretch...he is by far our best entry passer and defenders have to respect his jumper. Really was surprised not to see him run the offense the last few minutes.

weezie
01-27-2018, 04:55 PM
One more interesting thing: the team left the floor the same way they do after a win, hand-slapping the crowd along the floor. I truly think it was a recognition that although they didn't play great, they acknowledged the shortcomings. Grayson lead that team out of the gym.

It's going to be ok folks.

Bull City Proud
01-27-2018, 04:56 PM
What a great game. Hats off to the hoos. No doubt they are the best in the conference. I'm hoping for an ACC tournament rematch.

I donít agree they are the best team in conference. They are the BEST at committing fouls and not being called fouls. And no itís not sour grapes, itís reality. Imagine if Duke or any other team p,aged the same way ?

SkyBrickey
01-27-2018, 04:58 PM
I don't care if we are a 2 seed in March. No one is going to want to face Duke in the tourney. If we play UVA again we will beat them by 10.

freshmanjs
01-27-2018, 05:00 PM
I don't care if we are a 2 seed in March. No one is going to want to face Duke in the tourney. If we play UVA again we will beat them by 10.

Will this be more like 2015 or 2017? Who know at this point. I don't think anyone is going to be afraid to play Duke. Doing so is a huge opportunity and we'll take everyone's best shot.

accfanfrom1970
01-27-2018, 05:00 PM
I haven't rewatched the game or read the whole thread, so it may have been mentioned already - the refs, the missed free throws, turnovers, etc. What really frustrated me and what I thought was the downfall was the several times we gave UVA three shots. Limit their 2nd chances, even their 3rd chances, and Duke wins.

Duke79UNLV77
01-27-2018, 05:01 PM
He didnít punch Allen in the face. He made an absolutely normal basketball play, and because Allen was in his space and practically diving on him, the elbow clipped his face. It sucks for Allen, but was the right call.

No. You canít have your elbows high and out and swing wildly. Should have been common foul on Allen, flagrant on Virginia. Also, Hall had elbowed Trent in the face a minute before, and the ref just said stop.

Didnít Guy catch his own untouched air ball to get another possession that ended with him hitting a 3?

Iím sure we got a few calls, too. Ultimately, overthinking in the first half and missed free throws lost it.

Ian
01-27-2018, 05:02 PM
One more interesting thing: the team left the floor the same way they do after a win, hand-slapping the crowd along the floor. I truly think it was a recognition that although they didn't play great, they acknowledged the shortcomings. Grayson lead that team out of the gym.

It's going to be ok folks.

I agree with you, this is probably the least upset I have been after a loss. We played a great team, and played very well, especially on defense. I'm not sure FT shooting is correctable (Carter and Bagley are going to shoot in the 60s so they will miss some), but everything else should be. This is a great learning opportunity and if the young team learn the right lessons from this game they will continue to get better.

Bull City Proud
01-27-2018, 05:04 PM
Iím 100% with CDu on this. Allen hovered over Guy. Guy may have been a little aggressive, but it was absolutely the right call to not call a fragrant on Guy.

If it was Grayson throwing the elbow, what would have happened ? Nestor blew the whistle before Grayson ever fouled him. He anticipated the call.
At the very least should have went to the monitor . No valid reason why they didnít go to the monitor .

DarkstarWahoo
01-27-2018, 05:04 PM
Look, Guy was in the process of getting body-checked to the ground. He was trying to protect the ball. Even Allen said it was his fault.

freshmanjs
01-27-2018, 05:05 PM
Look, Guy was in the process of getting body-checked to the ground. He was trying to protect the ball. Even Allen said it was his fault.

He didn't say anything about fault. He said it was the correct call.

DarkstarWahoo
01-27-2018, 05:06 PM
Having said that, I have no idea if, as flyingdutchdevil said, it was wrong to not call a fragrant on Guy. I have no idea how he smells.

(Iím so sorry)

Ian
01-27-2018, 05:08 PM
No. You canít have your elbows high and out and swing wildly. Should have been common foul on Allen, flagrant on Virginia. Also, Hall had elbowed Trent in the face a minute before, and the ref just said stop.

Didnít Guy catch his own untouched air ball to get another possession that ended with him hitting a 3?

Iím sure we got a few calls, too. Ultimately, overthinking in the first half and missed free throws lost it.

I think you're allowed to rebound you're own airball miss if the ref deemed it a legit shot attempt.

CDu
01-27-2018, 05:09 PM
I think you're allowed to rebound you're own airball miss if the ref deemed it a legit shot attempt.

No, you are not. It would be a travel. The ball has to touch something for you to reclaim it.

JD for Three!
01-27-2018, 05:10 PM
I do have to say that watching State win in OT had me in a pretty fine mood heading into our game. Glass is at least half full today (think I will top it off)

wavedukefan70s
01-27-2018, 05:10 PM
Having said that, I have no idea if, as flyingdutchdevil said, it was wrong to not call a fragrant on Guy. I have no idea how he smells.

(Iím so sorry)

Needed that laugh..

Bull City Proud
01-27-2018, 05:11 PM
Look, Guy was in the process of getting body-checked to the ground. He was trying to protect the ball. Even Allen said it was his fault.

Body checked ? Not even close.
Elbow thrown by Guy, absolutely.
Thatís not why Duke lost, but UVA is a dirty basketball team.

CDu
01-27-2018, 05:13 PM
No. You canít have your elbows high and out and swing wildly. Should have been common foul on Allen, flagrant on Virginia. Also, Hall had elbowed Trent in the face a minute before, and the ref just said stop.

Didnít Guy catch his own untouched air ball to get another possession that ended with him hitting a 3?

Iím sure we got a few calls, too. Ultimately, overthinking in the first half and missed free throws lost it.

You are allowed your space and the space above you. Allen was in Guyís space. The correct call was made.

MChambers
01-27-2018, 05:15 PM
You are allowed your space and the space above you. Allen was in Guyís space. The correct call was made.

There was a similar play in a Duke game earlier this season. I think Trent had the ball and the defender came into his space and got hit by Trent's forearm. Refs called a foul on Trent, but then went to the monitor and reversed the call.

freshmanjs
01-27-2018, 05:16 PM
There was a similar play in a Duke game earlier this season. I think Trent had the ball and the defender came into his space and got hit by Trent's forearm. Refs called a foul on Trent, but then went to the monitor and reversed the call.

Which was really weird because foul calls are not reviewable.

mgtr
01-27-2018, 05:25 PM
At halftime, I complained that we played with too little energy. In the second half, we corrected that, but it was not quite enough. I hope we learned from this game.

Wahoo2000
01-27-2018, 05:26 PM
No, you are not. It would be a travel. The ball has to touch something for you to reclaim it.

Could be wrong, but I believe that's an NBA only rule. In HS and college, if the referees believe it is a legitimate shot attempt, the shooting player may be the first to touch/retrieve/control his own airball (since it was "out of his control" - I could see the rule changing down the road if the rules committee believes players are getting away with intentionally making and getting away with self-passes).

reference: https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/texas-guard-catches-his-own-air-ball-and-scores-a-layup-044949762.html

Devilwin
01-27-2018, 05:26 PM
Bottom line. We make a few more free throws, we ain't having this conversation, or cut the unforced turnovers in half, we win. We have got to make our free throws, and value the ball. We could very easily have won this game...I saw nothing out there today that makes UVA unbeatable. They are a great defensive team, true, but many of our turn overs were just dumb mistakes, trying to force things that were not there. And no one guards you while you are shooting free throws....Give UVA credit for some big shots near the end...That's all.

duketaylor
01-27-2018, 05:26 PM
"UVA is a dirty basketball team." Not. sorry. They're good defensively and play as well as we used to on D. If we could hit some threes or Grayson could de-funk, we'd be fine. Just me opine.

Duke79UNLV77
01-27-2018, 05:33 PM
I think you're allowed to rebound you're own airball miss if the ref deemed it a legit shot attempt.

Um, no. Youíre not. Thatís traveling.

jimmymax
01-27-2018, 05:33 PM
Thread/game takeaways:
1) New "next play" appears to be "knocked us back"
2) Duke's not very good at feeding the post and given the talent of the big guys this shoudl be a priority for the coaching staff
3) Need to find a way to get Grayson more involved in the offense, for both his sake as well as the team's

Wahoo2000
01-27-2018, 05:34 PM
Um, no. Youíre not. Thatís traveling.

Cutting and pasting from another response:

Could be wrong, but I believe that's an NBA only rule. In HS and college, if the referees believe it is a legitimate shot attempt, the shooting player may be the first to touch/retrieve/control his own airball (since it was "out of his control" - I could see the rule changing down the road if the rules committee believes players are getting away with intentionally making and getting away with self-passes).

reference: https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab...044949762.html

freshmanjs
01-27-2018, 05:35 PM
Thread/game takeaways:
1) New "next play" appears to be "knocked us back"
2) Duke's not very good at feeding the post and given the talent of the big guys this shoudl be a priority for the coaching staff
3) Need to find a way to get Grayson more involved in the offense, for both his sake as well as the team's

The "next play" thing is one of my biggest pet peeves. Next play is about *within a game*. Move on to the next play, so you don't let one bad play compound into another one. It does NOT mean that you shouldn't care whether you win or lose or that you should just ignore a loss!!!

richardjackson199
01-27-2018, 05:38 PM
"UVA is a dirty basketball team." Not. sorry. They're good defensively and play as well as we used to on D. If we could hit some threes or Grayson could de-funk, we'd be fine. Just me opine.

Seconded and Thirded. Tony Bennett is a class coach and UVA is a class school (with real classes and players who goes to class). Referees had nothing to do with this game. They did their best to let the players determine the outcome. UVA earned the win. Duke didn't make enough plays in this one. I'm thankful we played with heart and didn't get blown out of our own gym. We need to learn from this how to close out wins.

Congrats to UVA - they're going to win the ACC Regular Season and will get a #1 seed.

Plenty of time to improve to a team who peaks in late March. The pieces are there to make a run, so we'll find out what this Duke team is made of.

Duke79UNLV77
01-27-2018, 05:39 PM
You are allowed your space and the space above you. Allen was in Guyís space. The correct call was made.

You canít put your elbows high and out and swing wildly, which is what he did. You have to separate the two. Did Allen foul him? Yes. Did he also connect on Allen with a flagrant 1? Yes.

Heck, Andre Dawkins got called for a flagrant while making a shot once. (I know the interpretation/emphasis has toned down, but I think Jerome did exactly what youíre told you canít do with your elbows. I also think it would be on Nightly News if Allen did it.)

CDu
01-27-2018, 05:44 PM
You canít put your elbows high and out and swing wildly, which is what he did. You have to separate the two. Did Allen foul him? Yes. Did he also connect on Allen with a flagrant 1? Yes.

Heck, Andre Dawkins got called for a flagrant while making a shot once. (I know the interpretation/emphasis has toned down, but I think Jerome did exactly what youíre told you canít do with your elbows. I also think it would be on Nightly News if Allen did it.)

He didnít swing wildly. And yes, you CAN have your elbows high. You just canít extend them outside of your space.

Guyís (not Jerome) elbows were within his space. They were directly above him, as he was leaning back. Allen was inside Guyís space where the contact occurred. Guy was not out of control, nor was he swinging outside his space. Hence, Guyís move was legal, and the contact incidental. It was the correct call.

Duke79UNLV77
01-27-2018, 05:54 PM
He didnít swing wildly. And yes, you CAN have your elbows high. You just canít extend them outside of your space.

Guyís (not Jerome) elbows were within his space. They were directly above him, as he was leaning back. Allen was inside Guyís space where the contact occurred. Guy was not out of control, nor was he swinging outside his space. Hence, Guyís move was legal, and the contact incidental. It was the correct call.

Weíll have to agree to disagree.

wavedukefan70s
01-27-2018, 05:59 PM
Weíll have to agree to disagree.

http://i64.tinypic.com/rrnski.jpg
sorry lol

duketaylor
01-27-2018, 06:00 PM
Unless the rules have changed, a player can have his elbows up and rotate without swinging his elbows, Shelden Williams was great at this. No foul, just playing by the rules. I taught this in basketball when I coached. Don't "swing" your elbows, just rotate with your pivot foot. Totally legal and a good way to "clear." It's a good way to make your opponents to respect your space. Beware.

Reddevil
01-27-2018, 06:20 PM
I think this Duke team grew up quite a bit today. The first half was terrible, and it looked like the game was going to be typical UVA anaconda affair, but no - the guys dug deep, they did not whither, and they came away knowing they can beat the Cavs. They rallied, and did not back down. They are frustrating to play and when things are not going well, everything including fundamentals, and concentration can fall apart. That happened for a while, but they kept fighting and took the lead. Yes, they were a few decisions, free throws, etc. From winning, but they know that now. This game was like swinging the bat weight in the on deck circle. Now, the weight is off and they can swing freely. Yeah, this team grew up today. Now they know who they are and what they are capable of doing. Games like this can build a TEAM. I believe it made them stronger and they have a great tape to watch and analize to boot. We may look back on this loss as a turning point.

ncexnyc
01-27-2018, 06:26 PM
He didnít swing wildly. And yes, you CAN have your elbows high. You just canít extend them outside of your space.

Guyís (not Jerome) elbows were within his space. They were directly above him, as he was leaning back. Allen was inside Guyís space where the contact occurred. Guy was not out of control, nor was he swinging outside his space. Hence, Guyís move was legal, and the contact incidental. It was the correct call.

You keep arguing about this play and while I concede the foul on Allen, I think the point that has many people of this forum up in arms is the fact that we've had the refs stop to review similar plays like this against our kids. Considering when this play happened during the game, many believe it was worthy of at least a review.

vick
01-27-2018, 06:37 PM
You keep arguing about this play and while I concede the foul on Allen, I think the point that has many people of this forum up in arms is the fact that we've had the refs stop to review similar plays like this against our kids. Considering when this play happened during the game, many believe it was worthy of at least a review.

Getting upset over lack of reviews even on (frankly rather clearly) correct calls seems silly to me. Replay has always been sold as there to correct obvious errors, and somehow there always seems to be replay creep.

Saratoga2
01-27-2018, 06:43 PM
Bottom line. We make a few more free throws, we ain't having this conversation, or cut the unforced turnovers in half, we win. We have got to make our free throws, and value the ball. We could very easily have won this game...I saw nothing out there today that makes UVA unbeatable. They are a great defensive team, true, but many of our turn overs were just dumb mistakes, trying to force things that were not there. And no one guards you while you are shooting free throws...Give UVA credit for some big shots near the end...That's all.

According to the stats, we had 16 TO's while UVA had 5. That stat stands out. We on the other hand outrebounded UVA and when you put things together it was close. Cut down on those TO's by valuing each possession.

Saratoga2
01-27-2018, 06:47 PM
I think this Duke team grew up quite a bit today. The first half was terrible, and it looked like the game was going to be typical UVA anaconda affair, but no - the guys dug deep, they did not whither, and they came away knowing they can beat the Cavs. They rallied, and did not back down. They are frustrating to play and when things are not going well, everything including fundamentals, and concentration can fall apart. That happened for a while, but they kept fighting and took the lead. Yes, they were a few decisions, free throws, etc. From winning, but they know that now. This game was like swinging the bat weight in the on deck circle. Now, the weight is off and they can swing freely. Yeah, this team grew up today. Now they know who they are and what they are capable of doing. Games like this can build a TEAM. I believe it made them stronger and they have a great tape to watch and analize to boot. We may look back on this loss as a turning point.

We need better play from our guards.

UrinalCake
01-27-2018, 06:47 PM
Proud of the team for making that comeback at the start of the second half. Being down 10 to UVA is like being down 20 or more to a normal defense. As others have stated, turnovers and missed free throws were the story. Our game plan is obviously to get the ball inside but when defenses take away the easy entry passes we have a tendency to just force it in and usually end up throwing it away.

I actually thought Allen fouling Guy on a three point attempt when we were up 4-0 was a really big play. I know it was incredibly early in the game, but we had gotten off to a hot start with Carter and Bagley each getting dunks (exactly what UVA's defense is designed to stop) and had seemingly made another defensive stop. Allen's foul allowed UVA to get right back in it and Allen was never really mentally in the game for the rest of the half.

Jerome's two big threes in the final minutes could easily be pointed to as the difference in the game. One of them game right after Trent missed a wide open three, which was a huge swing. Those shots reminded me of what Tatum did to them last season and Cook and Tyus did in 2015. When a guy bombs an NBA three over the zone defense, there's not much you can do. In the final minute or so I was actually wondering if we would come out of the zone defense, as UVA had hit open mid-range looks on the past several possessions. It's pretty common in end of game scenarios like that to go straight man and to switch on every screen. I know our fans hate the M2M and really hate the overplaying hedges by our bigs, but that kind of scheme would have prevented the long open looks by Jerome. Pick your poison I guess.

It's a bummer to lose the game but my long-term outlook for this team hasn't changed. We still have a lot of room for improvement, the defense is getting better, and this game was a really great learning experience for the young guys.

CDu
01-27-2018, 06:49 PM
You keep arguing about this play and while I concede the foul on Allen, I think the point that has many people of this forum up in arms is the fact that we've had the refs stop to review similar plays like this against our kids. Considering when this play happened during the game, many believe it was worthy of at least a review.

I am only arguing about it because folks are saying it should have been a flagrant foul on Guy. It should not have been, and was called correctly. If all that was being argued was “they should review it”, then I wouldn’t be arguing.

That said, like vick I don’t see the need for much irritation over them not reviewing it. The call was correct. A review wouldn’t have changed that.

dukelifer
01-27-2018, 07:02 PM
Seconded and Thirded. Tony Bennett is a class coach and UVA is a class school (with real classes and players who goes to class). Referees had nothing to do with this game. They did their best to let the players determine the outcome. UVA earned the win. Duke didn't make enough plays in this one. I'm thankful we played with heart and didn't get blown out of our own gym. We need to learn from this how to close out wins.

Congrats to UVA - they're going to win the ACC Regular Season and will get a #1 seed.

Plenty of time to improve to a team who peaks in late March. The pieces are there to make a run, so we'll find out what this Duke team is made of.
Assuming a lot here. One of their better players turned an ankle today. A season can turn on an injury. UVA is good but not loaded with lots of backup talent.

Devilwin
01-27-2018, 07:09 PM
I just watched the out of bounds play near the end of the game that was given back to UVA after they touched it last. And they did touch it last, no doubt. It led to a three....So many things that make the difference in a game. For the record, although they won (and congrats to them) I still am hard headed enough to think Duke is the better team. We contributed mightily to our own downfall.. You cannot win shooting free throws like we did (45%) or making 16 tos...

DangerDevil
01-27-2018, 07:09 PM
I am only arguing about it because folks are saying it should have been a flagrant foul on Guy. It should not have been, and was called correctly. If all that was being argued was ďthey should review itĒ, then I wouldnít be arguing.

That said, like vick I donít see the need for much irritation over them not reviewing it. The call was correct. A review wouldnít have changed that.

Doesnít it seem like any other time there is a play that involves an elbow to a playerís face that the officials go to the monitors to review?

Was it due to the fact that it wasnít called a flagrant foul?

gofurman
01-27-2018, 07:11 PM
UVA is like playing Navy in football. They set the game back 50 years. Regardless when you only score 63 points AT HOME thatís a poor performance. Not sure what to say about Sr Grayson Allenís 5 point performance. Just tough to win when K utterly refuses to play a bench. But hey he hasnít changed in 30 years so why start trying to develop an 8 man rotation now.

Why is superb - and I do mean superb! - defense "setting the game back"?? Are we supposed to like the NBA where you can carry and take 4 steps ? I hate the NBA all-offense rules. I also love triple-option football !

CDu
01-27-2018, 07:11 PM
Tough game to lose. We didnít play well for a half, and it cost us the game. We did a great job fighting back, but spotting UVa such a big lead left us not a ton of margin for error. We played EXTREMELY well in the second half. Unfortunately, just a few too many mistakes and with such a deficit to start we couldnít afford those. Credit to UVa too. They built that lead, and hit just enough shots late to win.

That said, there are positives. We played the #2 team in the country to a draw despite a REALLY sloppy first half and bad shooting games from all of our perimeter guys. We scored VERY efficiently in the second half against the best defense in the last 20 years. And our defense was again very good. Those are what we should build upon.

Yes, we likely lost the ACC regular season and 1 seed in the ACC tourney today. Yes, we likely put ourselves into the Midwest or West regions unless we fall to the 2 line. But there were definite positives to build on. Things to work on still, but plenty of positives.

CDu
01-27-2018, 07:20 PM
Doesnít it seem like any other time there is a play that involves an elbow to a playerís face that the officials go to the monitors to review?

Was it due to the fact that it wasnít called a flagrant foul?

A review isnít required unless the refs feel they need it. I suspect the reason no review was given is because the ref saw that Allen was off-balance and falling on top of Guy at the time, and thus didnít need to review as the contact was incidental. It was a pretty clear call.

I certainly wouldnít have had a problem if they did review it. But they got the call right, so I am not bothered that they chose not to do so.

alteran
01-27-2018, 07:22 PM
Refs probably determined it happened as a side effect of the foul.

Because thatís usually a factor they consider? Seriously, first time Iíve heard of it.

That being said, donít want to harp on foul calls, there was a lot we could have done to win this game that we didnít do.

hsheffield
01-27-2018, 07:22 PM
Playing UVa is like playing South Carolina last year. Their reputation allows them to make defensive plays that would be fouls on other teams. Duke has to understand that and play through it. Making a few threes would help too.

this.

pack line defense played more like they were green bay packers.

really looking forward to learning from this and beating them in the ACCT championship game

dukelion
01-27-2018, 07:25 PM
Bottom line for me.....Virginia played to it's ceiling today. I just don't see them getting significantly better than they already are....which is extremely good.

Duke on the otherhand, as others have astutely mentioned upthread, have all kinds of areas to improve and are trending in the right direction with this extremely young team.

Not gonna be too bitter with this result.

UrinalCake
01-27-2018, 07:25 PM
Assuming a lot here. One of their better players turned an ankle today. A season can turn on an injury. UVA is good but not loaded with lots of backup talent.

The season's not over, but expecting us to win out in conference while UVA loses three times is a lot. And even then they would have the tie-breaker over us. Right now we are fighting for second place along with TEN other teams who have four or fewer losses.

alteran
01-27-2018, 07:25 PM
i really don't understand why K refuses to acknowledge that this team sucks at m2m defense. Give it a shot at the beginning of the game, go for it. But after about 5 minutes it was obvious that m2m was not going to contain UVA. That was the biggest mistake of the game, K sticking with m2m for so long.

Duke played a lot like this in 2015.

And, to be fair, less illustrious years.

I think he uses zone as a crutch to keep us competitive, while he works on the m2m. By the post season, the m2m will be much better. It has already improved.

UrinalCake
01-27-2018, 07:35 PM
I think K feels like in order to reach its ceiling the team needs to play M2M. But in the short term, zone is more effective and so he is willing to use it in order to win games now.

A question for those more knowledgeable than me - when was the last time a team won the National Title playing primarily zone defense? Obviously Syracuse when they won it with Carmelo, but have there been any since then?

MChambers
01-27-2018, 07:39 PM
This teamís ceiling is a lot higher playing man to man. Maybe they wonít master it, in which case weíll see more zone, but K is going to give them every chance to learn man to man.

jhmoss1812
01-27-2018, 07:46 PM
Bottom line for me...Virginia played to it's ceiling today. I just don't see them getting significantly better than they already are...which is extremely good.

Duke on the otherhand, as others have astutely mentioned upthread, have all kinds of areas to improve and are trending in the right direction with this extremely young team.

Not gonna be too bitter with this result.

You don't think we're capable of shooting better than 40% from the field and 27% from 3?

Duke has a higher ceiling that we do but let's not pretend that UVA shot lights out or anything. This was not our A game either.

We won this game because we won the turnover battle and hit some big shots down the stretch.

DarkstarWahoo
01-27-2018, 07:55 PM
And UVAís best defensive player played 14 minutes and had his worst game of the year. While both teams played well and were up for the game, neither one hit their ceiling. Thatís a good thing for March.

ndkjr70
01-27-2018, 08:03 PM
Iím 28 years old. My dad and grandpa were Duke grads. I didnít attend Duke because they didnít have my major (bArch) but I have seen and re-watched every single Duke game since 1998ish.

While I am a well adjust young adult with a wife and a dog and a good job, I have never been able to ďhandleĒ a duke loss. It ruins my day- every day until the next game. Tournament losses put me in dark, dark places. Iím not proud of it and I am not claiming it to be healthy ó it just is what it is.

This is easily, by far and a way the easiest loss Iíve ever experienced as a Duke fan. This is a GENERATIONAL defense, #2 in the country and they gave it their best punch. Our scrappy group of children (which is what they are, compared to most of the top-25 in college ball) fought like hell and got us into position to win down the stretch. They made a few shots, we missed a few shots. That will happen again. But holy heck, I am proud of these guys.

When I re watch the game tonight, it will not be painful. Perhaps for the first time in my life. DDMF.

Troublemaker
01-27-2018, 08:21 PM
Jerome's two big threes in the final minutes could easily be pointed to as the difference in the game. One of them game right after Trent missed a wide open three, which was a huge swing. Those shots reminded me of what Tatum did to them last season and Cook and Tyus did in 2015.

That's what it reminded me of, too. I think we got a taste of our own medicine in this rivalry.



When a guy bombs an NBA three over the zone defense, there's not much you can do. In the final minute or so I was actually wondering if we would come out of the zone defense, as UVA had hit open mid-range looks on the past several possessions. It's pretty common in end of game scenarios like that to go straight man and to switch on every screen. I know our fans hate the M2M and really hate the overplaying hedges by our bigs, but that kind of scheme would have prevented the long open looks by Jerome. Pick your poison I guess.

Well, UVA would've played it differently against a m2m defense, right? Maybe Kyle Guy rubs a defender off a down screen and gets a wide-open three.

OZ
01-27-2018, 08:26 PM
Tough game to lose. We didnít play well for a half, and it cost us the game. We did a great job fighting back, but spotting UVa such a big lead left us not a ton of margin for error. We played EXTREMELY well in the second half. Unfortunately, just a few too many mistakes and with such a deficit to start we couldnít afford those. Credit to UVa too. They built that lead, and hit just enough shots late to win.

That said, there are positives. We played the #2 team in the country to a draw despite a REALLY sloppy first half and bad shooting games from all of our perimeter guys. We scored VERY efficiently in the second half against the best defense in the last 20 years. And our defense was again very good. Those are what we should build upon.

Yes, we likely lost the ACC regular season and 1 seed in the ACC tourney today. Yes, we likely put ourselves into the Midwest or West regions unless we fall to the 2 line. But there were definite positives to build on. Things to work on still, but plenty of positives.

Wow! The "best defense on the last TWENTY YEARS!" Just wow!

JD for Three!
01-27-2018, 08:33 PM
And UVAís best defensive player played 14 minutes and had his worst game of the year. While both teams played well and were up for the game, neither one hit their ceiling. Thatís a good thing for March.

I think the point is that neither team may have played itís best, and that is in large part because of the game the other team played. Duke fans see some very basic issues with our game. UVA caused some of that, but they didnít control our players shooting free throws. Itís #2 vs #4. Early in the season, those rankings mean nothing. After about 20 games, it means they were two very closely matche teams. Ours is loaded with freshman. Yours is not. Both learned from the game, but I might agree that we have a little more ceiling. I hope we meet in the ACCT. then we will see which side has learned something from todayís game. Hats off. You guys won this one..

kmspeaks
01-27-2018, 08:41 PM
Why is superb - and I do mean superb! - defense "setting the game back"?? Are we supposed to like the NBA where you can carry and take 4 steps ? I hate the NBA all-offense rules. I also love triple-option football !

Is it really superb if it relies on doing things that are against the rules and hoping they don't get called? Even if you want to pretend that bumping, holding, pushing, and grabbing cutters and rebounders is good defense, UVA's offense isn't any better. I find it amusing that Bennett's scheme is called Blocker-Mover since all those moving screens should be called blocking fouls.

Virgina, West Virginia, Louisville (when they pressured like crazy under Pitino), and teams that want to play like them hurt basketball because they turn what should be a game of skill and athleticism into a contest of brute strength. I like watching lots of basketball, but if they're not playing Duke I'm not watching a UVA game. The score doesn't have to be 96-94 to entertain me, but I'll pass on watching wrestling matches vaguely disguised as basketball games. Triple option football is just fine by me though.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-27-2018, 08:41 PM
There are some cranky folks on this board. We just lost to the number two team in the nation by one basket and had a shot to win in the final minute.

Not sure why everyone is piling on Allen. Other than missing shots, what exactly are you disappointed with? He is generally making good decisions, playing tough defense, and continues to be the first guy on the floor when the ball is loose.

Our second half comeback felt nice and had some good mojo, but it felt like it was more about UVa's inability to hit open twelve foot jumpers than anything else. Getting those rebounds and hustling down the court got us easy baskets before their D was set up.

I liked the zone and I loved the press. Very effective against a team that wants to play slow.

Everyone saying we have no shot at a one seed needs to slow down. We are #4 in the country and lost to #2 by two points and it is another month and a half before the committee makes any decisions. We will have several more opportunities to impress.

UVa played better today for longer. We looked great from the 18 minute mark to the 8 minute mark of the second half. That doesn't win you many top five match ups.

Reading this thread, I sure am glad I missed the in-game festivities here. I am sure we were calling for young men to lose their scholarships.

I can't imagine how this game would submarine our chances for a top seed, even if it happened at the end of the regular season. We will have a chance to play two or three top 25 teams in the Acc tourney which can certainly bump us up or down a line in any circumstance.

Take deep breaths, folks.

jv001
01-27-2018, 08:52 PM
Lot's of old roy "throw them under the bus" from a lot of Duke fans. Grayson's a bum, Duval is even worse and the refs cost Duke the game. Sounds like IC. Sure some guys didn't have their best games but we lost to a very good Virginia team. Observations: Turnovers: Carter, Duval and Trent with 12 of the 16 total were the biggest negatives with missed FTs a close 2nd but they didn't do it on purpose. Now let's regroup and win the next game and remember it could be worse, we could wear that ugly shade of blue and be the biggest cheaters of all time. We are not and we play for the GOAT. The season is not over. GoDuke!

dyedwab
01-27-2018, 08:55 PM
1) I wish there was a tennis-like statistic of "unforced errors" because that's what cost us the game. Many of our turnovers weren't because of good D, but because of sloppy O, we missed that front-end of 3 one and ones and Grayson's forced 3 with 30 seconds left wasn't good. If we clean up half the things we continue to do to ourselves, we'll be ok

2) I thought our offense was pretty good at knowing what their defense was going to do. I was impressed with what we did when UVA came to double to ball-handler. Again that seemed to give us less trouble than stuff we did to ourselves.

3) UVA missing shots they should have made in the 1st half made our defense look better than it was. We routinely lost cutters when UVA had the ball, and there were a lot of wide-open UVA players in the corners. The zone seemed to stop that. Moreover, when we play zone, we just seem to have more attention to detail on defensive end.

4) As some folks mentioned in the pre-game thread, it appeared that UVA decided it wasn't gonna get beat by our offensive rebounding. I thought they did a really good just for most of the game of keeping us from getting second opportunities through offensive rebounding.

5) Grayson did not have a good game - and he especially had terrible first half. I think a reporter tweeted at half time that he had no points, no assists, and two turnovers at half time

6) To reiterate, i actually think that we were effectively executing in the 2nd half against their really good defense until the end. Missed FTs and a couple of bad decisions cost us the game specifically. But had we executed anywhere close to what we did in the 2nd half before half time, the result would have been different.

7) As usual, and its not just among the obsessive Duke fans on this board, our flaws are gonna be dissected as naseum while our strengths are underestimated. We lost by two to an historically elite defense, & looked like we solved it for a half. And would have won if we hit a couple of FTs.

FerryFor50
01-27-2018, 09:24 PM
this.

pack line defense played more like they were green bay packers.

really looking forward to learning from this and beating them in the ACCT championship game

Exactly. While UVA plays good defense, they are aided by the respect officials give them most of the time on fouls. However, part of the comeback in the 2nd half had to do with more fouls being called (rightfully so) on UVA, which resulted in less physical play by UVA, which helped Duke's offense a bit.

They also let UVA get away with a couple of offensive fouls that resulted in points (push off by Jerome around midcourt where he extended his arm and the lowered shoulder in the lane by Hall on GA). But, despite all that, Duke had a chance to pull it out. If they hit FTs at a normal rate and turned it over just a little less, they win easily. Hard to be upset by that effort with such a young team.

kAzE
01-27-2018, 09:29 PM
4 missed front end of 1-and-1s by my count. We should have won that game. We played like crap in the first half, but overall, we played well enough down the stretch to win that game. Make your free throws . . .

UrinalCake
01-27-2018, 09:31 PM
This is easily, by far and a way the easiest loss Iíve ever experienced as a Duke fan.

Appreciate the perspective. I think coming into the season most of us had this game circled as a likely loss (or perhaps the most likely loss in a season in which we would be favored in nearly every game) given UVA's experience and the mismatch in styles. As Duke fans we are conditioned to never be happy with a loss, but this one doesn't sting as much as others do. At halftime things were looking pretty grim, I was wondering if we were about to get blown out on our own floor, and whether we would even crack 40 points for the game. So the second half performance was very encouraging.

FerryFor50
01-27-2018, 09:34 PM
4 missed front end of 1-and-1s by my count. We should have won that game. We played like crap in the first half, but overall, we played well enough down the stretch to win that game. Make your free throws . . .

Even with the missed FTs, they were a huge ball fake/three by Jerome and and a Duval turnover away from winning. But yea... hit your FTS for sure.

uh_no
01-27-2018, 09:36 PM
Much has been said already. Couple thoughts:

That was a hell of a basketball game by two really really good basketball teams. In my opinion, the only other team in the country that is close to the level that the two teams played today is villanova. (Sorry not-a-single-good-win purdue...you're not it).

Tony Bennett is an incredible basketball coach. Yeah I see hemming and hawing about refs and physical bla bla bla. If you can do something and not get called, that's good coaching. Having the moral high ground doesn't get you wins.

You can't turn the ball over 16 times in 64 possessions. That's an incredibly poor number for a team that purports to be as offensively skilled as duke. Virginia's defense is great, no doubt, but this is the same thing that has gotten us in trouble in the past....especially last week...vs miami.

It was an incredible good defensive performance by duke. Adjusted, it was something sub 90....which would be top 5 in the country.

Duval really needs to get over the habit of needing to get benched before giving effort on defense. He was beaten pretty badly a couple times before alex came in. This is a pattern dating back to the beginning of the season. He played great on defense after that, which shows he CAN do it. He needs to come out and give 100% from the tip. There are many things that would have changed the outcome, and one of them was effort on defense for those few possessions.


Anyway, I'm not going to hem and haw. Bunch of freshman got knocked back, and then figured it out....but couldn't pull it out. There's things to work on, everyone knows that...but the great defensive performance is the takeaway. Nothing against the players, but I'm glad ND is short-handed, because that is going to be a rough one on short turn around.

Now with the ACC regular season out of the picture, time to move forward.

UrinalCake
01-27-2018, 09:39 PM
I liked the zone and I loved the press. Very effective against a team that wants to play slow.

I'm not a coach or anything but I kind of disagreed with using the full court press. It's not likely to generate many turnovers because UVA is so good with the ball, and it doesn't use up much additional clock time because they're just going to walk the ball up anyways. Instead it seemed like we just expended a lot of extra energy, both physical and mental, so when the shot clock got down to 10 we relaxed on D while UVA used their experience to execute under pressure.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-27-2018, 10:03 PM
I'm not a coach or anything but I kind of disagreed with using the full court press. It's not likely to generate many turnovers because UVA is so good with the ball, and it doesn't use up much additional clock time because they're just going to walk the ball up anyways. Instead it seemed like we just expended a lot of extra energy, both physical and mental, so when the shot clock got down to 10 we relaxed on D while UVA used their experience to execute under pressure.

I liked the variety of it. Showing different looks. Uva is no offensive juggernaut, but the stats listed above suggest what we tried on defense worked.

As I said above, I don't know we get credit for them missing five or six open shots from twelve feet in the second half, but the results indicate something we as working.

DarkstarWahoo
01-27-2018, 10:31 PM
I think the point is that neither team may have played itís best, and that is in large part because of the game the other team played. Duke fans see some very basic issues with our game. UVA caused some of that, but they didnít control our players shooting free throws. Itís #2 vs #4. Early in the season, those rankings mean nothing. After about 20 games, it means they were two very closely matche teams. Ours is loaded with freshman. Yours is not. Both learned from the game, but I might agree that we have a little more ceiling. I hope we meet in the ACCT. then we will see which side has learned something from todayís game. Hats off. You guys won this one..

I see exactly nothing incorrect here. Yíallís ceiling is sky-high. I like ours, too. I hope we get to play again, ideally on March 10. Our games are fun, and I think itís abundantly clear that these are the two best teams in the conference. I donít think anyone else is particularly close.

indy1duke
01-27-2018, 10:32 PM
I think the toughest to stomach here is the odds of being a number 1 seed have pretty much slipped away. And we don't tend to go very far when not a 1 seed. I suppose it is possible if we win out the rest of the season and the committee factors in a conference tournament title. But otherwise it's gone and we'll have to break with a lot of precedent to play in April.

There are lots of games left for Virginia to slip up. We are unlikely to win the regular season but it is not a stretch to win out and enter the ACC tournament as the #2 seed and go on to win it. That will absolutely earn Duke a #1 seed in the NCAAs. In fact they will get the south region ahead of UVA with those facts.

By the way while everyone prefers a #1 seed Duke has gone to Final Four five times under Coach K as a #2 seed or lower although not since 1994.

Dukehky
01-27-2018, 10:42 PM
They foul on every possession. Because of their reputation, it's tough defense, rather than fouling. Happened in the 2014 ACC Championship game when they fouled Jabari literally every time he touched the ball.

We've been able to overcome that lately with good three point shooting. If we shoot even a respectable percentage from deep (26% is not respectable), this is a win.

Stuff happens. Duval needs to make better decision making.

Allen is a shooter. He has to shoot well. His other attributes keep him useful, but for us to be great, he's gotta hit threes. His other greatest attributes are mitigated based on the personnel. There isn't room to rampage to the hoop like there was a few years ago. He's gotta stay relevant as a scorer for us to be great, and that's the goal.

Scheyer and Singler both had stretches during that 2010 year, through February where they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, and then they came through. No real concerns whether Allen CAN do the same, just hoping that he will. It's not February yet, we're making improvements at a pretty good clip. If we see them in the ACC tournament, I think we would be favored again.

uh_no
01-27-2018, 10:47 PM
I'm not a coach or anything but I kind of disagreed with using the full court press. It's not likely to generate many turnovers because UVA is so good with the ball, and it doesn't use up much additional clock time because they're just going to walk the ball up anyways. Instead it seemed like we just expended a lot of extra energy, both physical and mental, so when the shot clock got down to 10 we relaxed on D while UVA used their experience to execute under pressure.

I disagree. It cost them 5+ seconds. They often didn't initiate their offense until <15 sec on the shot clock because of how long it took them to get up and get set. That extra 5 seconds can make a huge amount of difference in the quality of the shot...especially for a plodding team whose sets take forever to develop.

Given we still looked plenty fresh even at the end of the game, and we put on a stellar defensive performance, I'm not sure this would be my main takeaway.

Wahoo2000
01-27-2018, 10:48 PM
Appreciate the perspective. I think coming into the season most of us had this game circled as a likely loss (or perhaps the most likely loss in a season in which we would be favored in nearly every game) given UVA's experience and the mismatch in styles. As Duke fans we are conditioned to never be happy with a loss, but this one doesn't sting as much as others do. At halftime things were looking pretty grim, I was wondering if we were about to get blown out on our own floor, and whether we would even crack 40 points for the game. So the second half performance was very encouraging.

Really? An unranked team that was picked 6th in the league? If that's true, you guys are absolute seers. I think even the most optimistic UVA fans thought we had the potential to be a top 15, maybe top 10 team. MAYBE be in the mix for the ACC regular season (be within a game or two of the leader down the stretch). I don't recall anyone outside the UVA fanbase or team-focused media really preaching that the Cavs would be the type of team that would frighten Duke at home. I'd think any/all of MSU, UNC, @Miami, Florida (in the field at PK80), Notre Dame, Louisville would have been seen by the vast majority of basketball fans as WAY bigger threats.

All I know is this - after this season, we should make the preseason top 25 by default just based on Bennett. Stupid preseason poll cost us like a 5 year string of being ranked.

CameronDuke
01-27-2018, 10:56 PM
I'll ask again - have any other teams scored 41 on Virginia in a half like Duke did in the 2nd half today? I'd be shocked if Duke's second half
total points of 41 wasn't the most Virginia has given up in a half all year. The funny thing is, if Duke didn't miss the front end of a few 1-1s and get virtually something from Grayson or Trent from 3, I think Duke has a 50 point second half today. A few teenagers for Duke scored 30 and 14 and 14 and 15 on this Virginia defense that is apparently the best defense since the Berlin Wall...

uh_no
01-27-2018, 11:07 PM
I'll ask again - have any other teams scored 41 on Virginia in a half like Duke did in the 2nd half today? I'd be shocked if Duke's second half
total points of 41 wasn't the most Virginia has given up in a half all year. The funny thing is, if Duke didn't miss the front end of a few 1-1s and get virtually something from Grayson or Trent from 3, I think Duke has a 50 point second half today. A few teenagers for Duke scored 30 and 14 and 14 and 15 on this Virginia defense that is apparently the best defense since the Berlin Wall...

Yep. The first half was Duke freshman getting punched in the mouth and not knowing what hit them. Obviously I've never played against UVAs defense, but I imagine it's something you have to experience to truly understand. We were lost for 20 minutes. We adjusted.....but even though it was an entire half of great ball, it was still too little, too late. Such is the problem of getting down double digits to the slowest team in the country.

Sure we got the lead, but ultimately they nipped us. If we played another half (third?) of basketball after that one, I think duke wins going away.

I'm seriously hoping for a rematch in New York.

PackMan97
01-27-2018, 11:27 PM
Yep. The first half was Duke freshman getting punched in the mouth and not knowing what hit them. Obviously I've never played against UVAs defense, but I imagine it's something you have to experience to truly understand.

[snip]

I'm seriously hoping for a rematch in New York.

I think it will be very interesting to see how Duke does defensively from here on out. Will the effort that UVa puts out on defense serve as an example for the Duke youngsters?

I too would like to see you guys in a rematch against UVa.

BobBender
01-27-2018, 11:41 PM
Is it really superb if it relies on doing things that are against the rules and hoping they don't get called? Even if you want to pretend that bumping, holding, pushing, and grabbing cutters and rebounders is good defense, UVA's offense isn't any better. I find it amusing that Bennett's scheme is called Blocker-Mover since all those moving screens should be called blocking fouls.

Virgina, West Virginia, Louisville (when they pressured like crazy under Pitino), and teams that want to play like them hurt basketball because they turn what should be a game of skill and athleticism into a contest of brute strength. I like watching lots of basketball, but if they're not playing Duke I'm not watching a UVA game. The score doesn't have to be 96-94 to entertain me, but I'll pass on watching wrestling matches vaguely disguised as basketball games. Triple option football is just fine by me though.

I've been reading this stuff all day, and it's frankly comical for any of us to be bitching about how the game was called. I have seen countless new posters ( meaning, folks I have never seen on DBR before) complain that Guy should have been called for a flagrant foul when he was basically being mugged in the last minute.
Frankly, we should be better than this. They won, completely fair and square. We will have at least one, maybe two chances to avenge this loss. But it is complete sour grapes to blame today on officiating. In fact, outside of the Duke universe, many would find that claim downright laughable.

uh_no
01-27-2018, 11:42 PM
I think it will be very interesting to see how Duke does defensively from here on out. Will the effort that UVa puts out on defense serve as an example for the Duke youngsters?

I too would like to see you guys in a rematch against UVa.

I mean....i don't really think they needed the example...ever since the state game, duke's defense has been very good (top 20), and today it was exceptional (top 5).

I think a rematch with any of the three teams who've trumped duke thus far have a good chance of a different outcome.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-27-2018, 11:47 PM
I think it will be very interesting to see how Duke does defensively from here on out. Will the effort that UVa puts out on defense serve as an example for the Duke youngsters?

I too would like to see you guys in a rematch against UVa.

If playing defense like Uva were as simple as getting shut down by them, a lot of teams would do it.

Coballs
01-28-2018, 12:25 AM
ďDuke got six minutes off its bench, none in the second halfĒ

One of several issues

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-28-2018, 12:26 AM
ďDuke got six minutes off its bench, none in the second halfĒ

One of several issues

Yup. It's over.

kAzE
01-28-2018, 12:38 AM
Sorry if this was already mentioned up thread, but Coach K said in his post game press conference that part of the reason the bench played very little was because O'Connell has been sick with the flu, and Javin's hamstring felt tight during warmups. He said Bolden is close but wasn't ready tonight.

KandG
01-28-2018, 12:54 AM
“Duke got six minutes off its bench, none in the second half”

One of several issues

Furthermore, per Ken Pomeroy (https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy) on twitter:

"Duke's 6 bench minutes today were the lowest by any team in any game this season."

https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/957498793196371968

Devilwin
01-28-2018, 04:44 AM
Ok. It's been sliced, diced, and dissected to death. As I see it (and I made myself watch the entire game again) there were a few bad call/no call instances that hurt us. But that happens in nearly every game. And, UVA fans maybe could say the same. Ultimately, this is why we lost to this fine team.
Of the 16 turnovers, at least 7, maybe 8, were not because of the Wahoos' defense, but our own sloppiness and not valuing the ball. Just youthful, bone headed errors.
Failure to convert on the front end of one and ones. You cannot credit Virginia's defense for that.
Virginia won the 3 pointer battle, especially near game's end. A couple of dagger's from Jerome and Guy sealed our fate.
Grayson and Gary just could not get open to get their feet set for threes, UVa had them covered well.
All that considered, we still almost pulled it out of the fire. These things are fixable. Let this one go and turn this around tomorrow and beat ND.

Saratoga2
01-28-2018, 06:00 AM
I think the point is that neither team may have played itís best, and that is in large part because of the game the other team played. Duke fans see some very basic issues with our game. UVA caused some of that, but they didnít control our players shooting free throws. Itís #2 vs #4. Early in the season, those rankings mean nothing. After about 20 games, it means they were two very closely matche teams. Ours is loaded with freshman. Yours is not. Both learned from the game, but I might agree that we have a little more ceiling. I hope we meet in the ACCT. then we will see which side has learned something from todayís game. Hats off. You guys won this one..

I do think both teams can play better. Virginia could hit more of their open shots while Duke could value the ball better. My contention is the Duke guards didn't hit many shots because they got so few open looks, but I have no access to watch the game again to see if that is right. I thought only time Allen got open was when he faked near the basket. Gary was wide open once when he missed, but I'll bet you could could the open looks on one hand. That was good Virginia defense. Virginia on the other hand was constantly open off the plays they ran against our porous defense. It seemed and just missed a lot of those shots.

For a guard to score well against Virginia, I believe he has to be able to break his man down on the dribble. A Kyrie type guard could do it. Trevon is our best off the dribble yet he is not a good shooter from outside. What we ran seldom got our guys open. Our bigs are our strength, and no defense can handle them. The closest you can get is to foul them constantly and hope they don't hit their foul shots.

mpj96
01-28-2018, 06:18 AM
First half was frustrating because we were playing a reactive style and didn't attack. Seemed we couldn't get anything to fall more than 2 feet from the hoop.

The 2nd half marked an impressive change. The 10 points were just a bit much for our guys to overcome and hold on to.

Duval and Carter particularly impressed me. Duval made a couple of plays I am sure he'd like to have back, but very few teams play defense like that UVA team. He made a pass to Bagley for a bunny in the first half that blew my mind. Coverage was great by UVA. No idea how he could even see Bagley, much less put the ball right in his hands.

Carter's defense and rebounding in the zone were fantastic. One or two more rebounds and we win.

Bagley was a stat machine as always and Grayson is leading this team with hustle and grit.

UVA is no powerhouse on offense but we are. And to my eye our zone defense looked really good in the 2nd half. Hated the outcome but a great ball game for any fan of good basketball.

Hoos Crazy
01-28-2018, 06:29 AM
I've been reading this stuff all day, and it's frankly comical for any of us to be bitching about how the game was called. I have seen countless new posters ( meaning, folks I have never seen on DBR before) complain that Guy should have been called for a flagrant foul when he was basically being mugged in the last minute.
Frankly, we should be better than this. They won, completely fair and square. We will have at least one, maybe two chances to avenge this loss. But it is complete sour grapes to blame today on officiating. In fact, outside of the Duke universe, many would find that claim downright laughable.

Props to you and other Duke fans who are gracious about the outcome of the game. DBR is by far the best opponent's board in the ACC, because its members know the game and respect opposing players and teams who play it the right way.

You don't need UVA fans to tell you what special talents you have in Bagley and Carter - if we had either one of those guys, I can't even imagine how good we'd be. With four stud freshmen, Duke isn't close to reaching its ceiling yet. It sucks to lose a game like that, but I'm sure that Coach K will use it as an opportunity to make your team better. Iron sharpens iron.

If (when) we meet again in the post-season, I'm just glad it won't be in Cameron.

Troublemaker
01-28-2018, 06:43 AM
I do think both teams can play better. Virginia could hit more of their open shots while Duke could value the ball better. My contention is the Duke guards didn't hit many shots because they got so few open looks, but I have no access to watch the game again to see if that is right. I thought only time Allen got open was when he faked near the basket. Gary was wide open once when he missed, but I'll bet you could could the open looks on one hand. That was good Virginia defense. Virginia on the other hand was constantly open off the plays they ran against our porous defense. It seemed and just missed a lot of those shots.

Maybe, but it also wasn't a focus for us to get the guards open threes. And additionally, when the guards had the option to curl into the lane or pop out to three off a down screen, they curled in, where they missed, unfortunately.

Our main offensive focus was to use ball screens (pick-n-roll) to move the defense and get our bigs good scoring opportunities off that movement. The stuff we ran for the big was good, imo.

It's just that we shot ourselves in the foot on too many possessions with unforced turnovers. And we also missed whatever few outside opportunities we generated. You have to hit your threes to beat UVA. If someone would've told me beforehand we'd go 4-15 from three, I would've predicted a loss.

lotusland
01-28-2018, 06:44 AM
I'll ask again - have any other teams scored 41 on Virginia in a half like Duke did in the 2nd half today? I'd be shocked if Duke's second half
total points of 41 wasn't the most Virginia has given up in a half all year. The funny thing is, if Duke didn't miss the front end of a few 1-1s and get virtually something from Grayson or Trent from 3, I think Duke has a 50 point second half today. A few teenagers for Duke scored 30 and 14 and 14 and 15 on this Virginia defense that is apparently the best defense since the Berlin Wall...

Berlin Wall is over-rated. The Wall was nothing special. There were guards with machine guns on turrets which gave the wall an unfair advantage.

dukelifer
01-28-2018, 06:55 AM
My biggest concern coming out of this game is Grayson, not Duval. We need him in games like this one and going forward. But recently, including today, he's had some no-shows. This isn't boding well for us. This team can't afford to rely only on Trent to produce anything from the perimeter. We knew before the season there wasn't going to be any depth at all on this team. Grayson has to be the senior that carries us. And lately he is barely at a 3rd team all conference level...or maybe not even that.

The tourney is about guard play- and right now the best you can say it is inconsistent. I donít know what is going on with Allen. It is very strange. If it is physical like a nagging back or hip- time may heal but if there is something else going on - or that the leadership role has been too draining- I really donít know. This team cannot go far without Allen being a 15ppg contributor.

left_hook_lacey
01-28-2018, 07:00 AM
Way too many turnovers. Probably would have won if we'd played zone the whole game like we did against Michigan State. Learning experience. We'll get them in the ACCT.

No. The zone worked at first, but VA settled down and started picking it apart at the high post. They missed 4 or 5 wide open free throw area jumpers.

I liked the determination our guys showed when they were down. VA can frustrate the best, but our freshman held strong. Good sign for the post season.

Papa John
01-28-2018, 07:02 AM
I've been reading this stuff all day, and it's frankly comical for any of us to be bitching about how the game was called. I have seen countless new posters ( meaning, folks I have never seen on DBR before) complain that Guy should have been called for a flagrant foul when he was basically being mugged in the last minute.
Frankly, we should be better than this. They won, completely fair and square. We will have at least one, maybe two chances to avenge this loss. But it is complete sour grapes to blame today on officiating. In fact, outside of the Duke universe, many would find that claim downright laughable.

When criticizing new posters whining about officiating, itís probably not a good idea to quote a poster who is seven years your elder on this board as your example. I donít agree with km, but he makes some legitimate points about the physicality of UVA, WVU, and Louisvilleís games.

left_hook_lacey
01-28-2018, 07:07 AM
How so? Do you think they will just stop playing defense?

This is a historically great defensive team that just beat our guys on their home floor in the biggest game of the season. The #2 offense in the nation was held to 63 points on their home floor. They will be a #1 seed. I see a Final Four team.

Uva doesn't make it to the FF. I'm willing to put pie on it.

Duke79UNLV77
01-28-2018, 07:14 AM
I've been reading this stuff all day, and it's frankly comical for any of us to be bitching about how the game was called. I have seen countless new posters ( meaning, folks I have never seen on DBR before) complain that Guy should have been called for a flagrant foul when he was basically being mugged in the last minute.
Frankly, we should be better than this. They won, completely fair and square. We will have at least one, maybe two chances to avenge this loss. But it is complete sour grapes to blame today on officiating. In fact, outside of the Duke universe, many would find that claim downright laughable.

The NCAA listed points of emphasis for this year include a scenario where Player A invades the cylinder of Player B, but then Player B swings his elbows more horizontally than vertically and makes contact for a double foul. Itís a judgment call, but I still think the play was a textbook double foul. I understand others can reasonably disagree. Neither position is comical.

As for the untouched air ball that Guy caught, I see the rule that allows that. Who knew? I guess Iíve seen this play called wrong from grade school to pickup to college all my life.

Commenting on these calls doesnít mean one is claiming a conspiracy or that our missed free throws and Jeromeís deep 3 werenít the keys to the game.

Bob Green
01-28-2018, 07:19 AM
My biggest concern coming out of this game is Grayson...

Over the past five games, Grayson Allen is averaging nine points per game and he is 7-27 on 3PT FG. He needs to find his stroke.

Troublemaker
01-28-2018, 07:23 AM
Uva doesn't make it to the FF. I'm willing to put pie on it.

I agree with you but from the standpoint that I would take the regional field over any one team to make the Final Four. I mean, around the country, who's really a better than 50/50 shot at making the Final Four? Villanova? I wouldn't take them with that NCAAT history (even though I know there's a recent championship in there). Purdue? Their last Final Four was in 1980. Michigan St? Not if there are distractions and if they end up a 3 seed or below.

I don't think either UVA or Duke is better than 50/50 either against the regional field.

Troublemaker
01-28-2018, 07:25 AM
When criticizing new posters whining about officiating, itís probably not a good idea to quote a poster who is seven years your elder on this board as your example. I donít agree with km, but he makes some legitimate points about the physicality of UVA, WVU, and Louisvilleís games.


The NCAA listed points of emphasis for this year include a scenario where Player A invades the cylinder of Player B, but then Player B swings his elbows more horizontally than vertically and makes contact for a double foul. Itís a judgment call, but I still think the play was a textbook double foul. I understand others can reasonably disagree. Neither position is comical.

As for the untouched air ball that Guy caught, I see the rule that allows that. Who knew? I guess Iíve seen this play called wrong from grade school to pickup to college all my life.

Commenting on these calls doesnít mean one is claiming a conspiracy or that our missed free throws and Jeromeís deep 3 werenít the keys to the game.

I've written this before, but for the record again, I'm not convinced BobBender isn't a UVA fan. I believe my pithy comment to "Bob" a year or so ago was that if I registered on a UVA board as "JeffLamp," that wouldn't make me a UVA fan.

mph
01-28-2018, 07:32 AM
You don't think we're capable of shooting better than 40% from the field and 27% from 3?

Duke has a higher ceiling that we do but let's not pretend that UVA shot lights out or anything. This was not our A game either.

We won this game because we won the turnover battle and hit some big shots down the stretch.

Agree. While UVA might be playing close to their peak at this point if the season (itís certainly hard to imagine how the defense could get much better), yesterdayís game didnít look like their best to me.

Full credit to UVA. I have immense respect for Tony Bennett and what heís done with with his program. Contrary to the few DBRers complaining about UVAís physicality, I havenít seen any evidence that UVA plays dirty. My only beef with Bennett is he let Guy play last season with that god-awful mun. Talk about a flagrant foul!

dukelifer
01-28-2018, 07:36 AM
I think the toughest to stomach here is the odds of being a number 1 seed have pretty much slipped away. And we don't tend to go very far when not a 1 seed. I suppose it is possible if we win out the rest of the season and the committee factors in a conference tournament title. But otherwise it's gone and we'll have to break with a lot of precedent to play in April.

Just about everything is unprecedented with this team. Duke will need to have a magical run. It is possible because Bagley is an other- worldly talent but there is no comparing this team to any in the past. This team is YOUNG and youth rarely wins it all. And getting the a FF is infinitely more important to teams like UVA than Duke. Duke is a powerhouse synonymous with the best of college basketball- it is a brand. UVA has a reputation for playing good D and boring basketball and a FF appearance may change their rep. Getting to a FF has no impact on next yearís Duke team or experience for the coaching staff. UNC is more likely to get to the FF because their players know what it takes. Other than Allen- this Duke team has no one who has played any significant minutes in the tourney. For Duke to win it all will take an amazing run but I believe they could pull it out but it will not be through some familiar path. The coaching staff knows their stuff- but the players have to execute and when it is your first time at the dance- it is much harder than it looks on TV.

mph
01-28-2018, 07:37 AM
Berlin Wall is over-rated. The Wall was nothing special. There were guards with machine guns on turrets which gave the wall an unfair advantage.

Good point. Best defense since the Maginot Line? Wait...

DangerDevil
01-28-2018, 07:37 AM
My only beef with Bennett is he let Guy play last season with that god-awful mun. Talk about a flagrant foul!

I hope we can all agree that Guyís new haircut and the subsequent removal of the man bun is addition by subtraction!

OldPhiKap
01-28-2018, 07:38 AM
And UVAís best defensive player played 14 minutes and had his worst game of the year. While both teams played well and were up for the game, neither one hit their ceiling. Thatís a good thing for March.

Agree with this. And congrats an a well-earned win.

kmspeaks
01-28-2018, 07:48 AM
I've been reading this stuff all day, and it's frankly comical for any of us to be bitching about how the game was called. I have seen countless new posters ( meaning, folks I have never seen on DBR before) complain that Guy should have been called for a flagrant foul when he was basically being mugged in the last minute.
Frankly, we should be better than this. They won, completely fair and square. We will have at least one, maybe two chances to avenge this loss. But it is complete sour grapes to blame today on officiating. In fact, outside of the Duke universe, many would find that claim downright laughable.

I don't know about others but at no point, either on this board or even in my mind, have I blamed the officials for the loss. That blame belongs to turnovers, missed free throws, and not being able to knock down some decent looks from 3.

I just don't really want to join in on singing the praises of a defense that employs a we're going to foul so much you can't possibly call them all strategy. Tony Bennett is not the only one, but he is the most successful with it and I don't enjoy watching it.

kshepinthehouse
01-28-2018, 08:02 AM
Killer defensive lap by Duke when it was tied 53-53. Hunter gets a wide open layup starting from the right wing and no one decides to cover him. This gave them the lead and was a HUGE turning point.

P.S. You ARE allowed to rebound your own air ball as long as it was a shot attempt. Those of you saying itís a travel have spent too much time at your local YMCA.

Troublemaker
01-28-2018, 08:05 AM
Just about everything is unprecedented with this team. Duke will need to have a magical run. It is possible because Bagley is an other- worldly talent but there is no comparing this team to any in the past. This team is YOUNG and youth rarely wins it all. And getting the a FF is infinitely more important to teams like UVA than Duke. Duke is a powerhouse synonymous with the best of college basketball- it is a brand. UVA has a reputation for playing good D and boring basketball and a FF appearance may change their rep. Getting to a FF has no impact on next year’s Duke team or experience for the coaching staff. UNC is more likely to get to the FF because their players know what it takes. Other than Allen- this Duke team has no one who has played any significant minutes in the tourney. For Duke to win it all will take an amazing run but I believe they could pull it out but it will not be through some familiar path. The coaching staff knows their stuff- but the players have to execute and when it is your first time at the dance- it is much harder than it looks on TV.

UNC is not more likely to get to a Final Four than Duke this season. C'mon now.

Overall, I'm pretty satisfied with where Duke is at right now. We've held 6 consecutive opponents under 100 offensive efficiency. By way of comparison, last year's Duke team had a high streak of two games holding opponents under 100 OE once ACC play started. During our 7-game winning streak last season, we held only two opponents under 100 OE. And during our 4-game ACC tournament run, we held zero opponents under 100 OE.

left_hook_lacey
01-28-2018, 08:06 AM
I agree with you but from the standpoint that I would take the regional field over any one team to make the Final Four. I mean, around the country, who's really a better than 50/50 shot at making the Final Four? Villanova? I wouldn't take them with that NCAAT history (even though I know there's a recent championship in there). Purdue? Their last Final Four was in 1980. Michigan St? Not if there are distractions and if they end up a 3 seed or below.

I don't think either UVA or Duke is better than 50/50 either against the regional field.

Point taken. I'll up the ante and say they don't make the elite eight.

freshmanjs
01-28-2018, 08:07 AM
UNC is not more likely to get to a Final Four than Duke this season. C'mon now.

Overall, I'm pretty satisfied with where Duke is at right now. We've held 6 consecutive opponents under 100 offensive efficiency. By way of comparison, last year's Duke team had a high streak of two games holding opponents under 100 OE once ACC play started. During our 7-game winning streak last season, we held only two opponents under 100 OE. And during our 4-game ACC tournament run, we held zero opponents under 100 OE.

Isn't part of that because the ACC was much tougher last year AND within that, our schedule was much tougher last year. It's not clear anyone in the ACC is as good as the last 3 teams we beat consecutively to win the tournament.

superdave
01-28-2018, 08:07 AM
Over the past five games, Grayson Allen is averaging nine points per game and he is 7-27 on 3PT FG. He needs to find his stroke.

I would try to get O'Connell at least 10 minutes a game and rest Allen, Trent and Duval a little each half. Alex is shooting over 50% from 3, brings a lot of energy, and the starters can gain some perspective by watching form the bench. Allen is going to be alright, but maybe more rest will put him in attack mode more.

Troublemaker
01-28-2018, 08:07 AM
Killer defensive lap by Duke when it was tied 53-53. Hunter gets a wide open layup starting from the right wing and no one decides to cover him. This gave them the lead and was a HUGE turning point.

P.S. You ARE allowed to rebound your own air ball as long as it was a shot attempt. Those of you saying itís a travel have spent too much time at your local YMCA.

There were a handful of killer mistakes while in the zone. Another one was Bagley allowing Guy a wide-open three in the corner by not being there on the wing and forming the backline in time.

OldPhiKap
01-28-2018, 08:11 AM
UNC is not more likely to get to a Final Four than Duke this season. C'mon now.



I’m not convinced that our chances are significantly better than Carolina’s. Both teams have exploitable problems that need to be fixed. Whichever team does that better in the next 6 weeks is in comparatively better shape.

We have the individual talent to win it all. But as a team, we ain’t there yet by a long shot. And while this is not Carolina’s best collection of athletes, they can pull it together too.

Troublemaker
01-28-2018, 08:12 AM
Isn't part of that because the ACC was much tougher last year AND within that, our schedule was much tougher last year. It's not clear anyone in the ACC is as good as the last 3 teams we beat consecutively to win the tournament.

Schedule is part of it, I'm sure, because we've faced Pitt x 2 and Wake x 2.

However, I don't know that the ACC is weaker than last year. At least not significantly.

Last year, kenpom had the ACC as the second-best conference with a +16.02 efficiency margin, behind the Big 12 who was first

This year, kenpom has the ACC as the second-best conference with a +15.98 efficiency margin, behind the Big 12 who is first

I don't see the big difference.

superdave
01-28-2018, 08:18 AM
There are some cranky folks on this board. We just lost to the number two team in the nation by one basket and had a shot to win in the final minute.

Not sure why everyone is piling on Allen. Other than missing shots, what exactly are you disappointed with? He is generally making good decisions, playing tough defense, and continues to be the first guy on the floor when the ball is loose.

Our second half comeback felt nice and had some good mojo, but it felt like it was more about UVa's inability to hit open twelve foot jumpers than anything else. Getting those rebounds and hustling down the court got us easy baskets before their D was set up.

I liked the zone and I loved the press. Very effective against a team that wants to play slow.

Everyone saying we have no shot at a one seed needs to slow down. We are #4 in the country and lost to #2 by two points and it is another month and a half before the committee makes any decisions. We will have several more opportunities to impress.

UVa played better today for longer. We looked great from the 18 minute mark to the 8 minute mark of the second half. That doesn't win you many top five match ups.

Reading this thread, I sure am glad I missed the in-game festivities here. I am sure we were calling for young men to lose their scholarships.

I can't imagine how this game would submarine our chances for a top seed, even if it happened at the end of the regular season. We will have a chance to play two or three top 25 teams in the Acc tourney which can certainly bump us up or down a line in any circumstance.

Take deep breaths, folks.

The zone and press were good because it forced Virginia to run their offense with 18-20 seconds of shot clock after burning 10-12 seconds to get the ball across half court and get set up. It was a nice move, but I wish we'd thrown that at them earlier.

Duval went coast to coast a few times to beat the defense down court. That's a real weapon that we both need to see more of from him and also need Trent and Allen to trail him for spot up 3's. Duval can be un-stoppable and the rest of the roster kinda needs to recognize that and follow him to the rim when he takes off. Good things can happen here.

It's too early to worry about the post season. These guys just need to keep growing and learning how to minimize mistakes. Yesterday should be a great opportunity to have film study and figure out the execution stuff better.

Furniture
01-28-2018, 08:25 AM
I would try to get O'Connell at least 10 minutes a game and rest Allen, Trent and Duval a little each half. Alex is shooting over 50% from 3, brings a lot of energy, and the starters can gain some perspective by watching form the bench. Allen is going to be alright, but maybe more rest will put him in attack mode more.

K said Alex had the flu. Bolden is not quite ready and Javins hamstrings were tight in the warm up.

slower
01-28-2018, 08:28 AM
UNC is not more likely to get to a Final Four than Duke this season. C'mon now.

I like how you say "C'mon now", as if that was some ridiculous assertion.

I wouldn't bet any money on Duke getting farther in the tourney than UNC. Yeah, we MAY get our act together come NCAA time - and we may not. There may just be another South Carolina waiting for us. I just don't get how somebody said pre-game yesterday that "most Duke fans think we will win" (based on WHAT, exactly?) and now the loss is being treated as a moral victory. It was a LOSS. At home. I think maybe people should stop clinging to the notion that this is some super-team that can just flip the switch at will - it's not.

And it's also annoying - VERY annoying - to have the "attitude police" try to smack down anybody who expresses frustration about the team or individuals. Guess what? Duval makes a lot of boneheaded decisions/plays. He deserves criticism for it.

Tyus Jones ain't walking through that door, folks. For that matter, neither are Amile Jefferson or Matt Jones. Maybe one thing we're learning is that experience DOES matter, and that our insane recruiting haul is a double-edged sword. Maybe the only truism in the "talent vs. experience" debate is that experienced talent is the best thing to have.

On to Notre Dame - a game that I'm sure "most Duke fans" think we'll win.

dukelifer
01-28-2018, 08:38 AM
UNC is not more likely to get to a Final Four than Duke this season. C'mon now.

Overall, I'm pretty satisfied with where Duke is at right now. We've held 6 consecutive opponents under 100 offensive efficiency. By way of comparison, last year's Duke team had a high streak of two games holding opponents under 100 OE once ACC play started. During our 7-game winning streak last season, we held only two opponents under 100 OE. And during our 4-game ACC tournament run, we held zero opponents under 100 OE.

If you are looking at precedent and development - senior Pinson, senior Berry and junior Maye have significant tourney experience. As hard as it is to believe- Maye is a first team all ACC player - Berry has that ability and Pinson is solid and occasionally excellent. They have a grad transfer who can shoot. On paper that team is capable of making a deep run as they too have not hit their peak. Duke has way more talent but way less experience. In terms of precedent- experience matters.

ipatent
01-28-2018, 08:40 AM
All I know is this - after this season, we should make the preseason top 25 by default just based on Bennett. Stupid preseason poll cost us like a 5 year string of being ranked.

I'll agree with that. A future Hall of Famer for sure.

kshepinthehouse
01-28-2018, 08:41 AM
If you are looking at precedent and development - senior Pinson, senior Berry and junior Maye have significant tourney experience. As hard as it is to believe- Maye is a first team all ACC player - Berry has that ability and Pinson is solid and occasionally excellent. The have a grad transfer who can shoot. On paper that team is capable of making a deep run as they too have not hit their peak. Duke has way more talent but way less experience. In terms of precedent- experience matters.

Iíll agree with everything you said except for Pinson is terrible. I love when he shoots, especially 3s.

uh_no
01-28-2018, 08:49 AM
Duval can be un-stoppable

yes, but he can and often does not realize that 4-1 is not a a count in his favor. He was a bit more discerning last night...pulling it out a couple times when he might have gone whole hog earlier in the year.

uh_no
01-28-2018, 08:52 AM
K said Alex had the flu. Bolden is not quite ready and Javins hamstrings were tight in the warm up.

also, it's likely our biggest game until march. i'm okay with pushing the starters, since likely if they're playing big games like that in march/april, there's going to be a time when they'll have to dig deep. I thought despite the loss, they pushed through and gave it their all to the end.

I expect to see significantly more bench tomorrow....probably with 10+ guys getting minutes. ND's a fast team....i'm sure our bigs could play 35+ again, but i'd rather see them get a light night

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-28-2018, 08:55 AM
I like how you say "C'mon now", as if that was some ridiculous assertion.

I wouldn't bet any money on Duke getting farther in the tourney than UNC. Yeah, we MAY get our act together come NCAA time - and we may not.

I think the assertion that UNC is more likely is absurd as well, sorry. They are lower ranked, have less talent, more losses, and a lesser coach.

Could they go to the FF? Sure. Could Duke flame out? Yes. They could happen at the same time, sure.

But the idea of "more likely" suggests a probability and chance that simply isn't true.

dukelifer
01-28-2018, 08:55 AM
I like how you say "C'mon now", as if that was some ridiculous assertion.

I wouldn't bet any money on Duke getting farther in the tourney than UNC. Yeah, we MAY get our act together come NCAA time - and we may not. There may just be another South Carolina waiting for us. I just don't get how somebody said pre-game yesterday that "most Duke fans think we will win" (based on WHAT, exactly?) and now the loss is being treated as a moral victory. It was a LOSS. At home. I think maybe people should stop clinging to the notion that this is some super-team that can just flip the switch at will - it's not.

And it's also annoying - VERY annoying - to have the "attitude police" try to smack down anybody who expresses frustration about the team or individuals. Guess what? Duval makes a lot of boneheaded decisions/plays. He deserves criticism for it.

Tyus Jones ain't walking through that door, folks. For that matter, neither are Amile Jefferson or Matt Jones. Maybe one thing we're learning is that experience DOES matter, and that our insane recruiting haul is a double-edged sword. Maybe the only truism in the "talent vs. experience" debate is that experienced talent is the best thing to have.

On to Notre Dame - a game that I'm sure "most Duke fans" think we'll win.
It is interesting to look back at the very talented 1999-2000 team. That team got bumped in the sweet 16 game. The next year they won it all- although they had to overcome a tough FF deficit against Maryland. That Duke team had more experienced depth as well. There is not a world of difference in this yearís team and that team.

Sir Stealth
01-28-2018, 08:56 AM
And it's also annoying - VERY annoying - to have the "attitude police" try to smack down anybody who expresses frustration about the team or individuals. Guess what? Duval makes a lot of boneheaded decisions/plays. He deserves criticism for it.

Tyus Jones ain't walking through that door, folks. For that matter, neither are Amile Jefferson or Matt Jones. Maybe one thing we're learning is that experience DOES matter, and that our insane recruiting haul is a double-edged sword. Maybe the only truism in the "talent vs. experience" debate is that experienced talent is the best thing to have.



The problem with this is that all of these players made plenty of mistakes as well. Tyus had plenty of growing pains in between his heroic moments, and Amile and Matt were not flawless in their poise even as seniors. So it's one thing to note areas where our players will need to improve for Duke to avoid a loss at the time of the season when we can't lose, but it's unfair to compare the current team to mythical versions of past players that never really existed.

Duval is a very talented player who obviously has had a lot to learn. I think that he recognizes that, and that's why he wanted to come to Duke and play for K. Being a point guard at a high level requires so much feel for the game around you. What I saw last night is a player who is improving and learning how and when to make big plays against the highest caliber defense that exists at this level. There are still enough mistakes to leave us vulnerable to a loss against a good team, but the potential to be a championship point guard is there. Grayson is obviously our most experienced player, and he clearly still has a lot to learn about how to find spots to make an impact on offense, especially when easy catch and shoot opportunities aren't there. So it's not like being here four years solves all problems.
in
I think you can tell from K's post-game comments that he sees his team making a lot of championship level plays in tough moments and believes that they are making progress toward the consistency that's necessary to make the full run in March. They wanted the win badly, so moral victory wouldn't be the correct way to put it, but it's not a situation where you are just hoping that they "flip the switch" with their talent. It's a focused squad that is making steady progress toward harnessing their potential as a basketball team.

uh_no
01-28-2018, 09:01 AM
I think you can tell from K's post-game comments that he sees his team making a lot of championship level plays in tough moments and believes that they are making progress toward the consistency that's necessary to make the full run in March. They wanted the win badly, so moral victory wouldn't be the correct way to put it, but it's not a situation where you are just hoping that they "flip the switch" with their talent. It's a focused squad that is making steady progress toward harnessing their potential as a basketball team.

That was a hell of a good duke team last night, and a 2 point loss to one of the best 3 teams in the country doesn't change a thing.

BobBender
01-28-2018, 09:04 AM
Iíll agree with everything you said except for Pinson is terrible. I love when he shoots, especially 3s.

Agree, I love seeing the ball in Pinsonís hands. He is JP Tokoto 2.0, a liability to the Heels offense. Or, in the new vernacular, heís their ďglue guyĒ. Translation: a guy who has few discernible skills, hustles his butt off, and is indispensable because, hey, you need to put a 5th guy on the court.