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Lord Ash
01-22-2018, 09:27 AM
... because on any other forum, I'd catch too much flak... and obviously I am over the moon with Zion coming, and with our recruiting, and all of that.





But still, I do miss the time when you'd have the guys for three or four years. You just got to know the guys and connect on such a nice level. I find my interest is just a hair less than it used to be, and I wonder if that contributes to it?

No complaints; K is the best, and I am so glad we are getting such great recruits who also seem to be terrific kids. But still... :)

JDukie
01-22-2018, 09:35 AM
I couldn't agree more with you! Happy to get the best recruits but it's just not the same. No way to get to know the players any longer except for the few who do stick around. And, those are the ones I tend to like best.

mgtr
01-22-2018, 09:44 AM
I miss a lot of things -- particularly being 18 and all that entails!;)

campered
01-22-2018, 09:47 AM
... because on any other forum, I'd catch too much flak... and obviously I am over the moon with Zion coming, and with our recruiting, and all of that.





But still, I do miss the time when you'd have the guys for three or four years. You just got to know the guys and connect on such a nice level. I find my interest is just a hair less than it used to be, and I wonder if that contributes to it?

No complaints; K is the best, and I am so glad we are getting such great recruits who also seem to be terrific kids. But still... :)

I echo your sentiments wholeheartedly! For us long timers in support of Duke basketball, or fans of college basketball in general, the meshing of four year teammates who have improved from the repetitious coaching methods during a longer stay, and from personal workouts, is sorely missed by this Duke fan. Newer fans cannot understand our plight, for they do not comprehend what they have never experienced. Like you I still get excited about the recruits we get, but there is still something"missing" from the past purity of college basketball.

Rich
01-22-2018, 09:47 AM
To use the last couple of years as an example, it's hard to argue that, as fans, our "relationship" with Jayson Tatum, MBIII, Wendell Carter, Harry Giles, etc. is the same as how most of us feel about Grayson Allen. There's something special about watching these kids grow and mature while at Duke. I think that's reasonable. No reason to feel bad about feeling that way.

thedukelamere
01-22-2018, 09:55 AM
The silver lining, for me at least, is that the constant "Duke doesn't produce NBA superstars" BS has begun to quiet down, and will hopefully cease all together over the next 10 years. Whether or not one year qualifies as actually being "produced" is up for debate, but The BrotherhoodTM is getting stronger by the day.

Lord Ash
01-22-2018, 09:59 AM
To use the last couple of years as an example, it's hard to argue that, as fans, our "relationship" with Jayson Tatum, MBIII, Wendell Carter, Harry Giles, etc. is the same as how most of us feel about Grayson Allen. There's something special about watching these kids grow and mature while at Duke. I think that's reasonable. No reason to feel bad about feeling that way.


And Grayson has been a "tough" case in a way, because so many of us were disappointed by the whole tripping thing.

Think about, say, Quinn. Holy cow. Or Amile.

53n206
01-22-2018, 10:05 AM
Entirely agree. Sometimes I see a reference to (for example) Winslow and I have to stop and think - but never to Hill or Groat. Yes, I'm that old.

uh_no
01-22-2018, 10:05 AM
And Grayson has been a "tough" case in a way, because so many of us were disappointed by the whole tripping thing.

Think about, say, Quinn. Holy cow. Or Amile.

Quinn was IMO closer to grayson than Amile. he had some issues early on being a team guy, to the point where i think nate james (?) told him he could take off the jersey on the bench if he wasn't going to support his teammates. It wasn't really until his senior year that he got it (obviously highly correlated with a move to SG).

But that's the beauty...you see the growth...or as you would hear in literature "character development." Sure the one-and-dones mature, but it's a different kind of maturation. the ceiling is lower...not in terms of play, but in being a teammate and leader.

Duke95
01-22-2018, 10:13 AM
What if I told you there's an easy way to get top recruits AND have them stay multiple years?

Psst....it's the same way employers retain valuable employees...

MChambers
01-22-2018, 10:17 AM
The silver lining, for me at least, is that the constant "Duke doesn't produce NBA superstars" BS has begun to quiet down, and will hopefully cease all together over the next 10 years. Whether or not one year qualifies as actually being "produced" is up for debate, but The BrotherhoodTM is getting stronger by the day.

If the NBA and the union decide to change the rules so players can go directly out of high school, few colleges will produce any NBA superstars. Given Duke's roster over the last few years and projected for next year, Duke may end up being the last school to produce very many.

DukieInKansas
01-22-2018, 10:28 AM
Watched the Pitt game online this weekend and they showed a Coach K interview at halftime. When asked about changing his recruiting in the OAD era he pointed out that he hadn't really changed his recruiting - he still went for the best kid out there. The environment had changed - Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley, Christian Laettner, etc. would be probably have been OADs if the environment back then was for kids to go to the NBA young. I hadn't thought about it that way.

Still - I enjoy the players that are at Duke for multiple years to see how they develop and mature.

FerryFor50
01-22-2018, 10:28 AM
Quinn was IMO closer to grayson than Amile. he had some issues early on being a team guy, to the point where i think nate james (?) told him he could take off the jersey on the bench if he wasn't going to support his teammates. It wasn't really until his senior year that he got it (obviously highly correlated with a move to SG).

But that's the beauty...you see the growth...or as you would hear in literature "character development." Sure the one-and-dones mature, but it's a different kind of maturation. the ceiling is lower...not in terms of play, but in being a teammate and leader.

That's the thing though; to keep a guy like Allen or Quinn, you need someone with the potential to be a pro (even if it's on the NBA fringe like Quinn), with obvious flaws. Quinn wasn't ever going to be one and done and he knew it, but he also thought he was capable of being "the guy" in college - and might have been closer to being that in his first two years if not for his knee injury right before he got to Duke, as well as the fact that the concentration of talent at Duke was way more evident than what Quinn likely had in high school.

However, having guys like Allen and Quinn means you have to be patient as a fan, and they have to be patient as players, as well as being set in enough reality to understand they need to develop more and that Duke is one of the better places to do that. These days, players like that are more likely to transfer to another school than to stick it out - regardless of if it's Duke or not. Chase Jeter could have been one of those 4 year guys that we loved watching develop, as could Derryck Thornton and others. But as a fan, I can't begrudge any player from wanting to achieve their dreams, even if that means leaving Duke (unless, of course, they leave for UNC).

Time have changed, and if we want Duke to remain a perennial NCAA title contender, we have to change with the times. Is it ideal that players leave after one year? For them, sure. For us? Not so much. But I can honestly say that some of my favorite Duke players have been 1 and done guys like Tyus Jones, Justise Winslow, Jah, Brandon Ingram, Jabari, Tatum, and now, Bagley and Carter.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-22-2018, 10:32 AM
What if I told you there's an easy way to get top recruits AND have them stay multiple years?

Psst...it's the same way employers retain valuable employees...

Health insurance?

CrazyNotCrazie
01-22-2018, 10:34 AM
What if I told you there's an easy way to get top recruits AND have them stay multiple years?

Psst...it's the same way employers retain valuable employees...

Taco Tuesday in the cafeteria?

Jeffrey
01-22-2018, 10:39 AM
Health insurance?

Yep, Cousin Guido explains to them they do not want to turn pro for a couple more years.

rsvman
01-22-2018, 10:42 AM
Taco Tuesday in the cafeteria?

Casual Fridays?

uh_no
01-22-2018, 10:42 AM
What if I told you there's an easy way to get top recruits AND have them stay multiple years?

Psst...it's the same way employers retain valuable employees...

you can't retain employees when your competitors are paying better....and there is simply no way for colleges to pay as much as the NBA. Offerring a few thousand bucks a year isn't going to do jack....you really think if we gave him 20k, bagley would stick around next year? Don't forget it's not just the money in those years that would be significantly less, you're also decreasing years of service, so extending the time until the player can get that lucrative second contract.

I wouldn't kid yourself. there will never be a financial incentive for players to stick around. Paying them wouldn't change a thing in that regard.

Duke95
01-22-2018, 10:42 AM
Health insurance?

I laughed, because it's funny, sad, and true at the same time, unfortunately.

BeachBlueDevil
01-22-2018, 10:42 AM
The way Duke recruits now is a love/hate for me.

I love getting these uber talented kids for a year and seeing them and their exceptional talent on almost a weekly basis from November-March. It is fun to see the growth of them as a player in that short time. For example in 2015 in that time Winslow grew a lot in a short time and same with Tatum last year. This year I've seen it in Carter and recently Duval/Trent.

Now I hate it because you only get these kids for a year. You find yourself invested in them and their growth. But when it ends, it feels sudden and then I realize I won't see them put on that uniform again. Then the next year the process begins all over and a new crew of kids come in that you have to get yourself invested into and the process starts all over again.

So this year, while I love what MB35, Carter, Trent and Duval are doing I'm finding myself excited to see Goldwire and O'Connell get into games and watch them since they both project to be 4 year players. I can't wait to see where they are in the next couple years and watch the continued growth at Duke for an extended period of time. I'm especially interested in Goldwire as I see a lot of Frank Mason III in him and see him possibly turning into that by his senior year. He may not put on 22ppg but I'd take a solid 14ppg and 5ast for a kid who came to Duke as under the radar as he did.

Duke95
01-22-2018, 10:48 AM
you can't retain employees when your competitors are paying better...and there is simply no way for colleges to pay as much as the NBA. Offerring a few thousand bucks a year isn't going to do jack...you really think if we gave him 20k, bagley would stick around next year? Don't forget it's not just the money in those years that would be significantly less, you're also decreasing years of service, so extending the time until the player can get that lucrative second contract.

I wouldn't kid yourself. there will never be a financial incentive for players to stick around. Paying them wouldn't change a thing in that regard.

Duke and others could pay athletes hundreds of thousands per year and not blink. Perhaps colleges couldn't rival the pay for lottery picks, but it could certainly affect those w/o a guaranteed salary.

There will be a financial incentive to stay if the expected value of leaving is less than the expected value of staying. Raise the latter, and you'll have greater retention.

Rich
01-22-2018, 10:50 AM
What if I told you there's an easy way to get top recruits AND have them stay multiple years?


Health insurance?


Taco Tuesday in the cafeteria?


Casual Fridays?

I know, I know...the answer is prostitutes!

uh_no
01-22-2018, 10:51 AM
I laughed, because it's funny, sad, and true at the same time, unfortunately.

how so? Player medical expenses are generally fully covered by the school. You think Duval paid out of pocket for the eye work that's being discussed in the other thread?

The school doesn't HAVE to pay, but they are allowed to, and I'd be shocked if any major conference school didn't have 100% coverage for their athletes....which are the athletes we're concerned about anyway (aka the ones being "taken advantage of")

Jeffrey
01-22-2018, 10:52 AM
I know, I know...the answer is prostitutes!

No, that's how you get the recruits, not keep them.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-22-2018, 10:53 AM
how so? Player medical expenses are generally fully covered by the school. You think Duval paid out of pocket for the eye work that's being discussed in the other thread?

The school doesn't HAVE to pay, but they are allowed to, and I'd be shocked if any major conference school didn't have 100% coverage for their athletes...which are the athletes we're concerned about anyway (aka the ones being "taken advantage of")

I assume the chuckle was in regards to how health insurance is an incentive in the marketplace, not the NBA.

devildeac
01-22-2018, 10:55 AM
What if I told you there's an easy way to get top recruits AND have them stay multiple years?

Psst...it's the same way employers retain valuable employees...


1. Hire ol roy.

2. Promise them minimal to no classroom responsibilities.

But let's not turn this into a "u"nc recruiting thread. :rolleyes:

Rich
01-22-2018, 10:55 AM
No, that's how you get the recruits, not keep them.

Tell that to my employer! :rolleyes:

Jeffrey
01-22-2018, 10:56 AM
The best way to keep top recruits is to minimize their academic requirements and expectations. Notice how much longer they stay at UNC.

Duke95
01-22-2018, 10:56 AM
how so? Player medical expenses are generally fully covered by the school. You think Duval paid out of pocket for the eye work that's being discussed in the other thread?

The school doesn't HAVE to pay, but they are allowed to, and I'd be shocked if any major conference school didn't have 100% coverage for their athletes...which are the athletes we're concerned about anyway (aka the ones being "taken advantage of")

I think you completely misunderstood my post.

devildeac
01-22-2018, 10:57 AM
I know, I know...the answer is prostitutes!

And make them available to the general student population. :rolleyes:

Duke95
01-22-2018, 10:57 AM
I assume the chuckle was in regards to how health insurance is an incentive in the marketplace, not the NBA.

Exactly.

Lord Ash
01-22-2018, 11:02 AM
I know, I know...the answer is prostitutes!



Uhhh... a poster named "Rich" just posted this?






Coach Pitino, is that you?

Bluedevil114
01-22-2018, 11:04 AM
... because on any other forum, I'd catch too much flak... and obviously I am over the moon with Zion coming, and with our recruiting, and all of that.





But still, I do miss the time when you'd have the guys for three or four years. You just got to know the guys and connect on such a nice level. I find my interest is just a hair less than it used to be, and I wonder if that contributes to it?

No complaints; K is the best, and I am so glad we are getting such great recruits who also seem to be terrific kids. But still... :)

I agree we would love to see all of these highly touted recruits stick around more than one year. Remember before Kyrie everyone thought the game and recruiting was passing by Coach K? He now has adapted and the brotherhood, NBA success and 2015 Championship team has recruits lining up to come to Duke. Last year many on here were complaining about getting Bagley and how this would hurt the team chemistry because he would arrive later than the others this season. We would have a few more losses this year if we had no Bagley. I heard on the Jason Evanís podcast that I think it was Sam saying he is no longer excited about getting these top recruits. That is crazy talk. We have four of the top eight recruits coming to Duke next season. How can you not be excited to replace a class we have with potentially a better class. You canít have your cake and eat it to. Duke is recruiting at the highest level and beating Kentucky and Kansas at their own game. Mostly Kentucky. This is a great time to be a Duke fan. My five favorite players were Hurley, Hill, JJ, Battier and Langdon. So I appreciate players staying and graduating. I remember how upset I was when Shaun Livingston popped directly to the NBA and we never got to claim him as our own. When the NBA institutes two and through, Duke will adjust and start getting the top players ranked 20+. That is what I love most about Coach K and Duke is that they will adapt to the rules and we all know Coach is connected to the right information and he will adjust his recruiting based on what he is hearing and then we will still get the top players headed to college. I love this time of the year. Letís enjoy this team it will be over before we blink. Go Duke.

uh_no
01-22-2018, 11:04 AM
I think you completely misunderstood my post.

one of my core competencies :D

Rich
01-22-2018, 11:09 AM
Uhhh... a poster named "Rich" just posted this?

Coach Pitino, is that you?

I'll never tell!

elvis14
01-22-2018, 11:22 AM
I know that I've discussed this subject a couple of times on DBR and with friends in person as well. I've admitted/lamented that I am not as interested in the individual players as I once was because we have so much turnover. I think we have all discussed the mechanics of the one and done and how they are driven by the NBA's rules (which many of us would love to see changed). I'm not saying I don't care about our guys, but that I care more about guys like JJ and Grayson than I do about Jahlil and Ingram. Of course the guys from 2015 have a special place in our hearts because of the championship but the only one of them from that team that really peaks my interest is Tyus.

I love that Duke and Coach K recruit the best players available and have success at it. I'm geeked about Zion, and Reddish and Jones, and Barrett, etc. I'm just looking forward to a time where we get to keep those best players on the team for more than a year. Note, I do realize that the best players available will not be the very best players if they are allowed to go pro but that's OK by me. Even if they beef up the G-League, a year or two worth of class at Duke plus the training and support they get from the athletic staff will be worth more per year than what the G-League will pay, BTW, so we should still succeed in recruiting.

thedukelamere
01-22-2018, 11:33 AM
And make them available to the general student population. :rolleyes:

You must spread some comments before... yada yada yada

devilsadvocate85
01-22-2018, 12:50 PM
Duke and others could pay athletes hundreds of thousands per year and not blink. Perhaps colleges couldn't rival the pay for lottery picks, but it could certainly affect those w/o a guaranteed salary.

There will be a financial incentive to stay if the expected value of leaving is less than the expected value of staying. Raise the latter, and you'll have greater retention.

The highlighted statement here is so frustrating, because even a simple understanding of how college athletics works and is governed by Federal law reveals this to be absolutely false. It is not an option to only pay basketball and football players, or a subset of the "superstar" players. If you want to pay college athletes, you have to pay all of the athletes and you have to pay them equally. When you think about the total number of athletes, the dollars are so far beyond "not blinking" that most schools would be forced to stop competing to avoid being bankrupt. College athletics as we know them would cease to exist. (As an example, the median starting salary for a college graduate in 2016 was expected to be around $50K/year. Duke has ~700 student athletes. Just to match the $50K figure, which clearly isn't what potential NBA or NFL players would expect and isn't even what a Duke graduate would expect, would cost $35 million per year. It should be noted that in terms of number of athletes, Duke's athletic department is relatively small. Extrapolating from Dukes numbers at even 100 Division 1 schools, which is low, we are talking about paying athletes $3.5 billion per year while they are in school on top of the existing costs for scholarships, etc.)

As a former D1 athlete, these arguments are very frustrating to hear. The number of athletes who would be able to make a living as a professional between the ages of 18-22 compared to the total number of college athletes is very small. While I agree that there are many things that can be done to improve college athetics. The idea that "paying the players" is at the top of the list and people continue to harp on it, is laughable. It can't work unless the laws of the land are changed (anyone think Title IX is going away?). I'm open to hearing thoughts, but colleges are never going to compete financially with the NBA and NFL for athletes. Even if they did, would any of us still have the same feeling as fans of our school, if NCAA sports were reduced to which institution could "buy" the best teams?

flyingdutchdevil
01-22-2018, 01:03 PM
I know, I know...the answer is prostitutes!

I thought you pay them to leave, not to stay. ;)

budwom
01-22-2018, 01:05 PM
It seems to me that we now (at least the last year or two) have evolved into Phase III with regard to team composition.

Phase I was the "good old days," where kids stayed for a bunch of years, early departures were rare.
Phase II was having a mix of veteran players and a couple three (New England jargon) OADs.
Phase III is having a team which is almost entirely made up of OADs.

What's become clear (to me, anyway) about Phase III is that no matter how talented the four or five newcomers may be, they will take at least early lumps
from teams with less talent but much more overall experience (e.g. State, BC games this year). The trick is, can you gain enough experience
in four or five months to get to a championship? Next year will be another case in point, perhaps a few solid returnees for Duke, but the team will largely be one of frosh.

I know it's heretical to say this, but this is why I've always been impressed with the success Michigan had with the Fab 5. They took on loads of veteran teams in a Phase I era and made it to
the final game twice. I can't say that I especially admired what some of them had to say and how they comported themselves, but I admire how they performed.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-22-2018, 01:08 PM
Health insurance?

All Division I scholarship athletes in revenue generating sports should, at bare minimum, have health insurance coverage to cover all injuries sustained while on scholarship at a school for life.

There is plenty of money to do that.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-22-2018, 01:21 PM
All Division I scholarship athletes in revenue generating sports should, at bare minimum, have health insurance coverage to cover all injuries sustained while on scholarship at a school for life.

There is plenty of money to do that.

We agree here.

Rich
01-22-2018, 01:42 PM
All Division I scholarship athletes in revenue generating sports should, at bare minimum, have health insurance coverage to cover all injuries sustained while on scholarship at a school for life.

There is plenty of money to do that.


We agree here.

Wait, did cats and dogs just start living together?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-22-2018, 02:11 PM
Wait, did cats and dogs just start living together?

I feel like I spend half my posts here explaining that I don't dislike Wheat.

Not sure what that says about me...

DukieInKansas
01-22-2018, 02:52 PM
I feel like I spend half my posts here explaining that I don't dislike Wheat.

Not sure what that says about me...

That you don't expect people to be perfect and you are open to views from all perspectives?

Lord Ash
01-22-2018, 03:01 PM
I feel like I spend half my posts here explaining that I don't dislike Wheat.

Not sure what that says about me...

That you dislike Wheat?

BobBender
01-22-2018, 03:25 PM
... because on any other forum, I'd catch too much flak... and obviously I am over the moon with Zion coming, and with our recruiting, and all of that.





But still, I do miss the time when you'd have the guys for three or four years. You just got to know the guys and connect on such a nice level. I find my interest is just a hair less than it used to be, and I wonder if that contributes to it?

No complaints; K is the best, and I am so glad we are getting such great recruits who also seem to be terrific kids. But still... :)

Iím on board with you on this. Weíve gotten about a dozen Zionís in the last 5 years, and thatís terrific. But the great memories of Duke b-ball are the Spanarkel-Gminski-Banks group coming out of nowhere. Or the Hurley-Hill-Laettner gang coming back from humiliation the previous year to throttle UNLV.
This new era may be good for 20 and 30-somethings who donít recall those eras. But for those of a certain vintage, it is not quite as enjoyable to hope an all-star collection can just gel defensively every February. That is the only question now each year.

weezie
01-22-2018, 05:29 PM
And Grayson has been a "tough" case in a way, because so many of us were disappointed by the whole tripping thing...

Nope, not me. That's in the past. A mistake. I've made many and will likely continue to do so. I will definitely have tears in my eyes when the crowd rises and roars for him on March 3rd. It's going to be thunderous.

Go GA! Let's go Duke!

PackMan97
01-22-2018, 05:46 PM
All Division I scholarship athletes in revenue generating sports should, at bare minimum, have health insurance coverage to cover all injuries sustained while on scholarship at a school for life.

There is plenty of money to do that.

...well everybody but the Chea....dangit! Wheat is right.

Liquidate your assets. Buy guns, ammo and canned food! The apocalypse is nigh!

MChambers
01-22-2018, 06:01 PM
Back to the point of this thread, yes, I agree that I don't enjoy the OAD era as much as I did Duke basketball 25 years ago. Of course, it's hard to figure out how of that is the OAD phenomenon, how much of it the corruption of most of college athletics, and how much is the decreased quality of play (which derives in part from the OAD phenomenon). I do think the biggest part of it is not getting to see the players develop over four years. I'm never going to feel about Jason Tatum the way I do about Grant Hill, for example.

Truth&Justise
01-22-2018, 06:01 PM
...well everybody but the Chea...dangit! Wheat is right.

Liquidate your assets. Buy guns, ammo and canned food! The apocalypse is nigh!

Happy to see minds of reason reaching accord -- and I hope neither of you quibble with that characterization!


I'll step up for the other side of the general argument in this thread -- I'm just as happy watching the one-and-done teams as I was watching teams comprised mostly of four year players. Sure, it was rewarding watching players develop over multiple years so they could overcome setbacks. But it was also frustrating when guys didn't develop, and we had the same limitations, year after year.

We get less of both of those things now--but it's not gone entirely. Instead we have a chance to get to know and cheer for a new crop of guys each year. On the upside, they're supremely talented, and that alone makes this a fun endeavor. I'm blown away by the incredible plays they can make, and we're competitive each year. It's a privilege to be an integral part of the maturation process for the very best players in the world, and I love seeing how they continue to develop after they leave Duke. On the downside, we go through the process each year of wondering if the team will gel and then, just as we know our stars well, we have to bid them adieu.

It's hard to quantify all these plusses and minuses, but for me it's not noticeably different. Now, if we were drastically changing rosters every year AND the players weren't any good, then I might not enjoy it as much. But from a purely basketball perspective, I'm at least as happy cheering for Duke now as I was before the one-and-done era. It's a fun ride, and we're all privileged to be part of the Coach K era at Duke.

PackMan97
01-22-2018, 07:57 PM
Back to the point of this thread, yes, I agree that I don't enjoy the OAD

I don't know...I enjoy seeing all these of Duke's best players leaving after one year :) Now if only Roy could figure out this OAD thing....

States problem is more like TAT and TFE
....two and transfer....or three for Europe...the rare Dennis Smith Jr being the exception that proves the rule.

jb75
01-22-2018, 10:22 PM
I agree with the sentiments of those favoring the days of four year players. However, with the OAD era, there is one positive that is not mentioned very often. I believe negative recruiting concerning Coach K's age by other programs is less effective with the OADs. Those elite players expecting to come to Duke for only a year or two are less influenced by programs raising the issue of how much longer Coach K will be at Duke.

Bull City Proud
01-22-2018, 10:25 PM
All Division I scholarship athletes in revenue generating sports should, at bare minimum, have health insurance coverage to cover all injuries sustained while on scholarship at a school for life.

There is plenty of money to do that.

Agree totally, thatís the least they could do.

elvis14
01-22-2018, 11:33 PM
I agree with the sentiments of those favoring the days of four year players. However, with the OAD era, there is one positive that is not mentioned very often. I believe negative recruiting concerning Coach K's age by other programs is less effective with the OADs. Those elite players expecting to come to Duke for only a year or two are less influenced by programs raising the issue of how much longer Coach K will be at Duke.

I think jb75 makes a really good point here. With Coach K only having about 20 more years at Duke, however, I don't see this as being an issue for another 16 years :)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-23-2018, 10:24 AM
Pulled from the Zion thread...


So how do you rationalize Jayson Tatum, who came to Duke and admitted that he didn't like going to class?

I think Coach K will not take students who are major academic liabilities. I do not think Coach K cares if his students like, enjoy, embrace, or care about academics; only that they attend class and do the required work. There is just no way that ALL of these OADs in the last three years care about academics. Sure, a few do (like Wendell). And we have non-OADs who do embrace and enjoy the academics (Grayson and DeLaurier to name a few).

Duke does their due diligence on all OADs to make sure they have passing grades. And I'm sure Coach K uses Duke's academic prowess as a recruiting tool and recruits/parents buy into it (as they should). But that's equivalent of me buying a BMW. Sure, the Bose sound system is awesome and helped me to make the decision to buy it, but I'm not really going to use the speakers to their full effect (sadly I don't own a BMW. Or Bose speakers).

I have no inner knowledge of how Duke does or does not market their academics to OAD players and their families, nor do I have any scoop on what sort of performance or attendence is expected of these young men.

I agree that to some recruits a year of Duke studies may be a draw in addition to K, the facilities, and "The Brotherhood." But, I would also ask you when is the last time you heard of ANY basketball player in a power five conference being on academic probation? My follow up would be "do you really think players are better students than they were in the 80's?"

I think that as much as we (rightly) poke at UNC for their institutionalized cheating scandal, college athletes across the board are working with a much lower bar for academics than they were twenty or thirty years ago. My point being - student athletes aren't being academically suspended because there are systems in place to keep that from happening.

Yes, there are Grayson Allens and Marcus Paiges out there making the most of their college years. But you will never convince me that a guy who spends eight-ten months on a college campus has much buy-in academically.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2018, 10:30 AM
Pulled from the Zion thread...



I have no inner knowledge of how Duke does or does not market their academics to OAD players and their families, nor do I have any scoop on what sort of performance or attendence is expected of these young men.

I agree that to some recruits a year of Duke studies may be a draw in addition to K, the facilities, and "The Brotherhood." But, I would also ask you when is the last time you heard of ANY basketball player in a power five conference being on academic probation? My follow up would be "do you really think players are better students than they were in the 80's?"

I think that as much as we (rightly) poke at UNC for their institutionalized cheating scandal, college athletes across the board are working with a much lower bar for academics than they were twenty or thirty years ago. My point being - student athletes aren't being academically suspended because there are systems in place to keep that from happening.

Yes, there are Grayson Allens and Marcus Paiges out there making the most of their college years. But you will never convince me that a guy who spends eight-ten months on a college campus has much buy-in academically.

Wait, I assume we're in agreement?

Also, for your first question, it's rare, but it happens. Here's a link to an OU player:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/ousportsextra/ou-men-s-basketball-forward-kristian-doolittle-suspended-for-fall/article_192a4d99-09e6-56f2-a1c5-ac0b98e0c7f5.html

Dev11
01-23-2018, 10:35 AM
I heard on the Jason Evanís podcast that I think it was Sam saying he is no longer excited about getting these top recruits. That is crazy talk. We have four of the top eight recruits coming to Duke next season. How can you not be excited to replace a class we have with potentially a better class.

I'm here to respond to criticism!

I'm still excited that Duke gets good players, I'm just a little numb to it. If you eat a delicious slice of pecan pie every day, eventually you will tire of the joy of pecan pie (disclaimer: I dearly love pecan pie). You somewhat made my point in the last sentence above, that I can't even fully enjoy this class before having to get myself hyped for the next, better class. I liked letting each player's career simmer, not flash fry.

And, with that, I have used two culinary analogies to explain my feelings on Duke's recent one-and-done recruiting strategy. It's not a bad thing, more that it's too much of a good thing.

And thanks for listening to the podcast.

Sam

Troublemaker
01-23-2018, 10:48 AM
I'm here to respond to criticism!

I'm still excited that Duke gets good players, I'm just a little numb to it. If you eat a delicious slice of pecan pie every day, eventually you will tire of the joy of pecan pie (disclaimer: I dearly love pecan pie). You somewhat made my point in the last sentence above, that I can't even fully enjoy this class before having to get myself hyped for the next, better class. I liked letting each player's career simmer, not flash fry.

And, with that, I have used two culinary analogies to explain my feelings on Duke's recent one-and-done recruiting strategy. It's not a bad thing, more that it's too much of a good thing.

And thanks for listening to the podcast.

Sam

I know what the recruiting rankings say but I still like the Bagley/Carter/Trent/Duval/O'Connell/Goldwire class more than Barrett/Reddish/Zion/Tre, and I think this year's team will be better than next year's team. Both are really fantastic classes, though.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-23-2018, 10:50 AM
Wait, I assume we're in agreement?

Also, for your first question, it's rare, but it happens. Here's a link to an OU player:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/ousportsextra/ou-men-s-basketball-forward-kristian-doolittle-suspended-for-fall/article_192a4d99-09e6-56f2-a1c5-ac0b98e0c7f5.html

Well, yes, it happens sometimes. But ot seems that "back in the day," there were always a few high profile players that you would hear rumblings about, or who would end up sitting out. Those days are long gone.

And yes, I suspect we agree - I just didn't want a conversation over waning academic expectations sullying a thread about Duke getting a top notch student athlete.

ChillinDuke
01-23-2018, 10:57 AM
Pulled from the Zion thread...



I have no inner knowledge of how Duke does or does not market their academics to OAD players and their families, nor do I have any scoop on what sort of performance or attendence is expected of these young men.

I agree that to some recruits a year of Duke studies may be a draw in addition to K, the facilities, and "The Brotherhood." But, I would also ask you when is the last time you heard of ANY basketball player in a power five conference being on academic probation? My follow up would be "do you really think players are better students than they were in the 80's?"

I think that as much as we (rightly) poke at UNC for their institutionalized cheating scandal, college athletes across the board are working with a much lower bar for academics than they were twenty or thirty years ago. My point being - student athletes aren't being academically suspended because there are systems in place to keep that from happening.

Yes, there are Grayson Allens and Marcus Paiges out there making the most of their college years. But you will never convince me that a guy who spends eight-ten months on a college campus has much buy-in academically.

Generally agree with your post.

I think it's important for folks to remember that everyone's different. Many posters/fans seem to want every player to be created in the mold that that poster/fan has created in their head. Obviously a crazy hope/dream to have.

Some players probably don't have much academic buy-in, I agree. But some assuredly do. I know if I were a star basketball player but was only planning to be in college one year, I'd want to get to see what college classes are all about. You're still a human being and you only get one shot at this. And this is the only year in your life that you will experience what many people talk about for the remainder of their lives. I'd want to learn and read and see if I could stack up with that haughty kid with the coiffed hair from down the dorm hall. Call it the competitive streak in me - I'm sure players can relate to that. Some people are experiential or competitive or disengaged or contrarian or rule followers or go-through-the-motions or hyper-focused on athletics and many, many more. Any or all of these sorts of personal characteristics can and probably will impact an athlete's relationship to their college curriculum / experience.

- Chillin

brevity
01-23-2018, 10:57 AM
Also pulled from the Zion thread:


I think it's safe to assume that Jayson didn't come to Duke for the academics, which is my main point and response to the OP. I'm not saying Jayson isn't smart or didn't factor academics in this decision to come to Duke; I'm arguing that someone who says he doesn't miss the classes at Duke isn't academically inclined (unlike most students who are academically inclined). And to me, there is nothing wrong with that.

I, for one, do miss the classes at Duke. But I went to Duke for the academics as my first, second, and third priority.

Strongly disagree with the statement I placed in bold emphasis. I don't miss the classes at Duke, and for pretty much the same reason I don't complain about the unbalanced ACC schedule: I don't live in the past. Sure, back then I went to Duke for the academics, and usually prioritized them. I was and still am academically inclined, but when presented with life after graduation, I didn't feel the need to look back.

If I hear about a really cool college course these days, I may get a little jealous in theory, but then I remember the daily grind and let it go. Few things feel better than waking up from the standard stress dream of the final exam/paper and remembering that it's all ancient history to me now.

Jayson Tatum talking about Duke academics in the past tense just sounds like focus in the present tense.


I agree that to some recruits a year of Duke studies may be a draw in addition to K, the facilities, and "The Brotherhood." But, I would also ask you when is the last time you heard of ANY basketball player in a power five conference being on academic probation? My follow up would be "do you really think players are better students than they were in the 80's?"

I think students in general are better students now than they were in the 80's. Not necessarily smarter, but more prepared and impressive. Ask any admissions officer.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2018, 10:58 AM
I know what the recruiting rankings say but I still like the Bagley/Carter/Trent/Duval/O'Connell/Goldwire class more than Barrett/Reddish/Zion/Tre, and I think this year's team will be better than next year's team. Both are really fantastic classes, though.

For once, I do agree with you. The current class is more balanced and really fun to watch. I think watching the 3 amigos play together (along with Tre) will be a journey and they will have more "whoa" comments than this group (Zion by himself will have more "whoa" moments. But Reddish and Barrett are also smooth and athletic), but it's tougher to see the pieces come together (and I'm sure they will offensively).

This year's class all have defined roles and responsibilities. Watching them grow without much variance or disturbance in their roles is wonderful.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2018, 11:02 AM
Also pulled from the Zion thread:



Strongly disagree with the statement I placed in bold emphasis. I don't miss the classes at Duke, and for pretty much the same reason I don't complain about the unbalanced ACC schedule: I don't live in the past. Sure, back then I went to Duke for the academics, and usually prioritized them. I was and still am academically inclined, but when presented with life after graduation, I didn't feel the need to look back.

If I hear about a really cool college course these days, I may get a little jealous in theory, but then I remember the daily grind and let it go. Few things feel better than waking up from the standard stress dream of the final exam/paper and remembering that it's all ancient history to me now.

Jayson Tatum talking about Duke academics in the past tense just sounds like focus in the present tense.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree (and I usually agree with you and your one-liners).

I miss class. I probably live in the past. I've thought about the countless classes that I didn't take but wanted to.

Truth&Justise
01-23-2018, 11:15 AM
But, I would also ask you when is the last time you heard of ANY basketball player in a power five conference being on academic probation? My follow up would be "do you really think players are better students than they were in the 80's?"



I think students in general are better students now than they were in the 80's. Not necessarily smarter, but more prepared and impressive. Ask any admissions officer.

Also consider the resources that athletics offices deploy to keep student-athletes -- and especially high-profile athletes like basketball players -- in good academic standing. There are tutors, academic advisors, and compliance officers. It's part of someone's job to make sure everyone is attending class and finishing school work. Plus, with only 12-15 basketball players, it's easier to keep track of everyone than it is in football, where I imagine there could be more academic negligence.

So no, I'm not surprised that there aren't many P5 basketball players on academic probation.

Troublemaker
01-23-2018, 11:27 AM
Cal's comments should be music to all our ears but also never forget that he is pandering to his base.

I love the comments because it shows Duke is under his skin in a big way.

As for the pandering, Big Blue Nation hates Duke with a passion. Anytime he takes direct shots at us, he scores with them. The "socialism" comment, I am sure, also lands in a very sweet spot for a majority of BBN. His comments about the combined salary of the Kentucky alums being a billion is his key selling point.

This is the first time in a long time I have heard him basically admit that we are beating them at recruiting. Up until this point, in every interview, all he says is, "When it's time to eat, we eat first."

If he had real balls, he'd say, "K is 70 years old and probably hanging them up in a year or two. He keeps missing time with injuries, illness and surgeries. If a kid wants to take a chance on an old man's health, good luck". When he enters that territory, you'll know he's truly desperate.


My guess is, this line is exactly what he tells recruits. Softer, of course.

But if you are a OAD, do you really care if K is retiring in four or five years? All you care about is whether he will be there next year, and I assume K gives each recruit and family his assurance that he will be there unless the Good Lord calls him home.


I agree with the sentiments of those favoring the days of four year players. However, with the OAD era, there is one positive that is not mentioned very often. I believe negative recruiting concerning Coach K's age by other programs is less effective with the OADs. Those elite players expecting to come to Duke for only a year or two are less influenced by programs raising the issue of how much longer Coach K will be at Duke.

In the recent ESPN profile of Jack White (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22115886/aussie-jack-white-living-dream-duke-blue-devils-coach-k), I was struck by this quote from the article:

White was full of praise when asked what Coach K means to him and the Duke program as a whole. "It's an absolute honour [playing for him], especially at this stage of his career when no one really knows how much time he has left coaching. For me, I'm just hoping he's around for my time here."

Even the 4-year players that are already on the team don't know how much longer Coach K will last, and apparently no promises were made that he'd be around all 4 years. (Which is a good thing -- don't make promises that you don't have complete control over to keep.) The end is near.

For me, I'm hoping OAD lasts exactly as long as the rest of Coach K's career. Once he hangs up his whistle, sure, let's go back to recruiting 4-year players (that realistically will sometimes turn out to be 2-year or 3-year players).

BandAlum83
01-23-2018, 12:40 PM
Generally agree with your post.

I think it's important for folks to remember that everyone's different. Many posters/fans seem to want every player to be created in the mold that that poster/fan has created in their head. Obviously a crazy hope/dream to have.

Some players probably don't have much academic buy-in, I agree. But some assuredly do. I know if I were a star basketball player but was only planning to be in college one year, I'd want to get to see what college classes are all about. You're still a human being and you only get one shot at this. And this is the only year in your life that you will experience what many people talk about for the remainder of their lives. I'd want to learn and read and see if I could stack up with that haughty kid with the coiffed hair from down the dorm hall. Call it the competitive streak in me - I'm sure players can relate to that. Some people are experiential or competitive or disengaged or contrarian or rule followers or go-through-the-motions or hyper-focused on athletics and many, many more. Any or all of these sorts of personal characteristics can and probably will impact an athlete's relationship to their college curriculum / experience.



- Chillin


Are basketball players put in gen-pop in the freshman dorms? I find it hard to imagine Carter and Bagley And the crew trudging down the hall with soap and towel in hand and sleeping in too short dormitory beds. By second year they are all in off-campus or central campus apartments, I imagine.

Rich
01-23-2018, 01:07 PM
Are basketball players put in gen-pop in the freshman dorms? I find it hard to imagine Carter and Bagley And the crew trudging down the hall with soap and towel in hand and sleeping in too short dormitory beds. By second year they are all in off-campus or central campus apartments, I imagine.

I don't know about now, but they were in the olden days. In the '80's, Billy King, Kevin Strickland (bball) and Stanley Monk (football) all lived on my hallway in Wannamaker. Then again, there are no longer freshmen on West campus so things have likely changed.

uh_no
01-23-2018, 01:40 PM
Are basketball players put in gen-pop in the freshman dorms? I find it hard to imagine Carter and Bagley And the crew trudging down the hall with soap and towel in hand and sleeping in too short dormitory beds. By second year they are all in off-campus or central campus apartments, I imagine.

as of 2008, freshman lived in dorms. There are suites in giles (?)...though not sure if they have private showers. I wouldn't be surprised if bed accommodations are made for the taller players. Standard beds are 80" long at duke, which should suit most people fine.

The next year, kyle lived in keohane.

AFAIK, all students are "required" to live in dorms for 3 years, and sophomores were required to live on west, though with the current cooky housing model, I don't think that's still true. Nolan got himself an apartment by sophomore year anyway, though he still did officially have a dorm.

Sir Stealth
01-23-2018, 01:55 PM
I get what folks are saying about not feeling as invested in players who are one and done. And as exciting as our recruiting dominance is, landing any one top recruit doesn't feel as thrilling as it used to, because you only get the one year and then have to go back out and do it again. But I will never, ever, discount a one and done's impact on the program or legendary status if that player is instrumental in any victory over UNC. I'll never forget Deng in 2004, Rivers in 2012, Tyus in 2015, or Jayson dunking over Kennedy Meeks or contributing the comeback in the ACC Tourney last year. Those victories are easy to emotionally attach to, and they require that Duke continues to go out and get the best players available. I wouldn't take any principled good feeling about someone staying for multiple years if it meant even one more loss to the cheaters, because there's nothing worse.

Mountain Devil
01-23-2018, 02:28 PM
as of 2008, freshman lived in dorms. There are suites in giles (?)...though not sure if they have private showers. I wouldn't be surprised if bed accommodations are made for the taller players. Standard beds are 80" long at duke, which should suit most people fine.


All the freshman B-Ball players now live in Pegram. Not sure if there are suites, but I suspect they will move the next class to the new "Super Dorm" on East. For some reason, it will be the only freshman dorm with all double beds.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2018, 02:30 PM
All the freshman B-Ball players now live in Pegram. Not sure if there are suites, but I suspect they will move the next class to the new "Super Dorm" on East. For some reason, it will be the only freshman dorm with all double beds.

There weren't suites in Pegram in 2004. Also, why did they move the players to Pegram? Pegram is kinda of dump for luxury (unless they renovated).

Man I miss Pegram. "You can't spell pregame without Pegram!"

Dev11
01-23-2018, 02:50 PM
as of 2008, freshman lived in dorms. There are suites in giles (?)...though not sure if they have private showers. I wouldn't be surprised if bed accommodations are made for the taller players. Standard beds are 80" long at duke, which should suit most people fine.

The next year, kyle lived in keohane.

AFAIK, all students are "required" to live in dorms for 3 years, and sophomores were required to live on west, though with the current cooky housing model, I don't think that's still true. Nolan got himself an apartment by sophomore year anyway, though he still did officially have a dorm.

Our freshmen year, they lived in Bassett, where they had for a while before that, as I recall. And yes, Nolan, Kyle, and Taylor all trudged down the hall to the shower just like the rest of us. I think that in general, other students were fairly nonchalant about the basketball players living in the dorms. Most 18-year-olds who are good enough to get into Duke don't spend a lot of time in high school reading about basketball prospects, so the fame isn't quite as blinding.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2018, 03:13 PM
Our freshmen year, they lived in Bassett, where they had for a while before that, as I recall. And yes, Nolan, Kyle, and Taylor all trudged down the hall to the shower just like the rest of us. I think that in general, other students were fairly nonchalant about the basketball players living in the dorms. Most 18-year-olds who are good enough to get into Duke don't spend a lot of time in high school reading about basketball prospects, so the fame isn't quite as blinding.

They may have shared showers, but they had ginormous rooms compared to the rest of us and I assume they had AC. If I recall, Bassett was like the rest of the Georgian architecture dorms in that they had no AC (just the bball players' rooms).

TruBlu
01-23-2018, 03:32 PM
I think students in general are better students now than they were in the 80's. Not necessarily smarter, but more prepared and impressive. Ask any admissions officer.

And students in the 80ís were better than they were in the 60ís. I know this for a fact, because I personally brought the average of the 60ís down a substantial amount. Ask my Dean.

Rich
01-23-2018, 03:48 PM
I think students in general are better students now than they were in the 80's. Not necessarily smarter, but more prepared and impressive. Ask any admissions officer.

And they have WAY more distractions. In addition to the same extracurriculars we had (playing sports, watching sports, partying, etc.), kids these days have to deal with the constant flow of information through the internet, their phones, social media, and 24 hour accessibility through text, FaceTime, Skype, etc. The number of distractions these days is mind boggling and it takes a really mature kid to deal with all of that and still function as a student.

I have a daughter in college and I can tell that it's really hard for her to focus on the school work part. If nothing else, she is constantly barraged by the binging of her phone and she's not mature enough to leave it behind when she needs to focus. It's a real problem for a lot of kids.

wobatus
01-23-2018, 04:30 PM
Also pulled from the Zion thread:





If I hear about a really cool college course these days, I may get a little jealous in theory, but then I remember the daily grind and let it go. Few things feel better than waking up from the standard stress dream of the final exam/paper and remembering that it's all ancient history to me now.



I recall reading somewhere that you only have those dreams (the final exam is today and you haven't read any of the books or gone to class, etc) if you actually graduated. It's that internalized stress that likely pushed you through. People that drop-out don't have those dreams.

I don't know if it's true but it's interesting. I still have dreams like that, fewer than I used to. Some go back to high school even, but mostly some college or law school. I will sometimes dream i'm back in college and think hey, at least I have some money now. But sometimes I'll be wondering how am i going to ask my parents to pay for another semester. Then suddenly I'll realize, in the dream, hey, I've been a lawyer for over 25 years now. I must have graduated. I have all these kids. How are they eating?

elvis14
01-23-2018, 04:32 PM
And they have WAY more distractions. In addition to the same extracurriculars we had (playing sports, watching sports, partying, etc.), kids these days have to deal with the constant flow of information through the internet, their phones, social media, and 24 hour accessibility through text, FaceTime, Skype, etc. The number of distractions these days is mind boggling and it takes a really mature kid to deal with all of that and still function as a student.

I have a daughter in college and I can tell that it's really hard for her to focus on the school work part. If nothing else, she is constantly barraged by the binging of her phone and she's not mature enough to leave it behind when she needs to focus. It's a real problem for a lot of kids.

My daughter is in high school. Same issue. She keeps her ringer and vibrate both off...otherwise he phone would buzz constantly (even when she's trying to sleep). Kids don't make calls they text, snapchat, etc. Heck even text is just about past tense for them.

DarkstarWahoo
01-26-2018, 10:59 AM
I have a random question that seems to fit here: For the one-and-dones, does K do any kind of ceremony or recognition for their last home game? I know I've seen schools do it for guys who leave, say, a year early, but I don't know how K and Cal and whomever else handle it with guys who are only there a year. On the one hand, it seems ridiculous to do that for someone who spends 9 months at school, but in y'all's case, guys like Jones and Winslow were major players on championship teams. So I ask this...what does K do to honor them?

devildeac
01-26-2018, 11:05 AM
I have a random question that seems to fit here: For the one-and-dones, does K do any kind of ceremony or recognition for their last home game? I know I've seen schools do it for guys who leave, say, a year early, but I don't know how K and Cal and whomever else handle it with guys who are only there a year. On the one hand, it seems ridiculous to do that for someone who spends 9 months at school, but in y'all's case, guys like Jones and Winslow were major players on championship teams. So I ask this...what does K do to honor them?

For Jones and Winslow (and Okafor), he hangs a banner. ;)

For any others, I'm not aware of any other special recognition.

cato
01-26-2018, 02:14 PM
For Jones and Winslow (and Okafor), he hangs a banner. ;)

For any others, I'm not aware of any other special recognition.

Tatum and Giles, too.

DarkstarWahoo
01-26-2018, 04:15 PM
For Jones and Winslow (and Okafor), he hangs a banner. ;)

For any others, I'm not aware of any other special recognition.

That's one way to honor them!